The Moon photobombs Earth-NASA
“Calvinism that does not humble has missed its mark”. Walter J Chantry (This is aimed at the theodudes of BBC)
I am slowly improving but still a bit weak. I get tested tomorrow. My daughter told me if it isn’t Omnicron it is a flu that they are seeing in hospitals. It apparently is some different variant than what was in our flu shots. Today is just about a few things you should take a look at. Interestingly, they deal with the New Calvinism crowd.
Lecrae is done with institutional Christianity but is still a Christian
Christian Post reported: Lecrae loses tour date after tweeting that he’s done with ‘institutional, corporatized’ Christianity: This will bring heartache to the Calvinista set who claimed that LeCrae was one of them. Looks like he got tired of it.
Reach Records founder Lecrae revealed that he and his team lost one of their tour dates this spring after sharing an honest tweet about deconstructing from “politicized” and “corporatized” modern church culture.
“Once upon a time I thought I was done with Christianity. But the reality was I was just done with the institutional, corporatized, gentrified, politicized, culturally exclusive version of it,” the popular emcee tweeted on Tuesday.
The following day, Lecrae re-shared his tweet and wrote: “Just lost a show because of this tweet. Point proven.”
The Grammy award-winning artist added: “Vulnerability gets people kicked out of exclusive tribes. Jesus welcomes the outcast and seeks to bring healing.”
I’m curious. Which group of folks is he speaking about?
Lecrae admits that he also had to do some soul searching after feeling so abused by fellow Christians in 2017.
That season almost made him walk away from his Christian faith. However, the rapper sought out on a journey to reconstruct his faith. Now his relationship with Christ is stronger than ever.
To prove my point about his association with the Calvinista set, here is a post by Roger Olson: An Open Letter to Lecrae
He has been part of the Young, Restless, Reformed Movement and embraced Calvinism as his theology. In recent years, however, he has spoken out publicly about racism in America and defended African-American athletes who peacefully protest racism before playing football and other sports. According to Lecrae and those who know him very well, he has become disillusioned with “white evangelicalism” and “divorced” himself from the movement.
Part 3: Why I Will Never Step Foot into Piper’s Bethlehem Baptist Church: Former Well-Known Members of Bethlehem Baptist Church Speak Out About What I Consider Abuse
Here are links to two podcasts at The Roys Report that you should listen to as you go about your day.
Podcast: What Happened at Bethlehem Baptist Church? Part 1
For many years, the Takatas enjoyed rich fellowship and teaching at the church. But over the past few years, they had become increasingly concerned about the church’s handling of race issues and treatment of women. And on January 31, 2021, they raised their concerns in two motions at a meeting of the church.
These motions set off a chain-reaction that eventually led three pastors to resign from the church, including Pastor Jason Meyer, successor to John Piper.
Podcast: What Happened at Bethlehem Baptist Church? Part 2
In my opinion, this demonstrates that Andy Naselli is a spiritual bully. I have never, ever, ever heard of the excuse he gives. He won’t apologize for gossiping because it wasn’t intentional. I was infuriated when I heard this. It shows the lengths that some Calvinists will go to show just how spiritually superior they are. If he went to my church, he would hear confessions that involved sins known and unknown, intentional and not international. Besides, is he so unaware that he doesn’t know what he did?
former members Steve and Janette Takata describe how a Bethlehem elder, Andy Naselli, reportedly disparaged and gossiped about them behind their backs.
But when they confronted Naselli with his sin, he refused to ask for forgiveness, they say. And in exclusive audio shared with The Roys Report, Naselli argues that asking for forgiveness would be “lying to make peace” because the harm he inflicted was unintentional.
Part 4: Why I Will Never Step Foot Into Bethlehem Baptist Church: Julie Roys is accused of “threatening” Pastor Kenny Stokes.
Here is the tweet:
Here is a link to the story. Bethlehem Baptist Church Pastor Accuses The Roys Report of ‘Threatening’ Him: Our Response
Here is what Stokes allegedly said:
This guy appears to be lying. He should know if Roys has a board and she does. Personally, I have long thought of John Piper as a wuss. It appears that wussiness has rubbed off on the “men” of Bethlehem Baptist Church. The boys get their feelings hurt and they attack.
Some members have called for an investigation into the mess that is BBC. At first, the church said they would have one then, in an apparent about-face, they decided not to do so. If you read Roys’ correspondence, you will see the truth. Yet, even after all of this was presented, an “apology” was offered. Boy oh boy, do these theodudes get feisty when their authority or their “account” is questioned. However, since they learned from the master, John Piper, who is still head of the Bethlehem Seminary which is BBC’s boutique seminary, I have to imagine that this sort of stuff is deeply ingrained. Along with an investigation, I believe that all BBC leaders need to undergo several sessions of psychotherapy. This stuff is nuts.
1st
Re: Item #3.
In Numbers 15:22ff and similar passages, the Israelites had to offer sacrifices even when their sins were unintentional. Lack of intentionality didn’t get them off the hook.
It doesn’t get us off the hook either. Jesus pays for those sins, yes, but we still need to repent of them and ask forgiveness.
Remember, the guys in charge at Bethlehem Seminary are buddy buddy with Douglas Wilson, the guy who wants to be the Pope on the Palouse. (Moscow, Idaho is on the Palouse River.)
Your back!
Take it easy and don’t try doing too much too soon.
Jeffrey Chalmers,
Somwhat back. I have a couple of good stories to write but I’m waiting until my brain catches up.
Erp,
Thank you. Going slow.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
I will never, ever forget these guys loooove Doug Wilson. This goes to show the utter inferiority of their belief system.
R,
Your post is exactly what I was thinking….. I guess they do not know the OT, do they!
Psychotherapy? Investigation? Why bother? How long was this former guy there? 40 years? Through the Natalie debacle – would THAT be institutionally salvageable?
Perhaps worthy to, as Boz tweeted about something, and Jordan Peele filmed about something else: “Get Out”.
Wikipedia reads that it all started in the 1800’s with a Bible class, which became a church, then a branch went off to be another church, and eventually BBC. Time to start a new Bible class? then branch off? and do right, (once again, hearkening to the 1800’s roots?)?
Forgive me. I thought someone’s back went out. Such literal thinking here. (Eventually, figured it out.)
Yes, wonderful to have you here, Dee – praying for you day and night.
And always nice to read your comments, Jeffrey Chalmers, our scientist in residence. How blessed we are.
Has anyone at BBC apologized and made restitution with Natalie? Anyone in leadership? Publicly – since that whole deal was done publicly?
R,
And then there’s apologies – repent with fruit of repentance, meaning restitution – to Julie Roys.
How many people are owed apologies and restitution by this institution and its leadership?
Hmmm… institutionally salvageable? Or the wheels have left the building (as in Ezekiel) and so should everyone else?
Is Wilson the big-Kahuna-reformed-fundagelical-dude who drinks that really expensive whiskey imported from Scotland?
Seems I heard a blurb along those lines awhile back.
The Calvinistas can blame “evanescent grace” for LeCrae’s rejection of what the YRR’s stand for. It wasn’t their fault – God did it. “Nothing to see here.”
dee,
I saw a twitter from Todd about how Jerry Fallwell Sr. ( purposely misspelled for once) divided up his “kingdom” between his two sons…. If true, definitely worthy of a post….
Jeffrey Chalmers,
PS… glad you are getting over “it”… whatever “it” was/is
Jeffrey Chalmers,
The legacy of Christianity or religion in America, the land of religious freedom, seems to pretty much swirl around capitalism.
Can only imagine that this would result in more of a curse than a blessing from On High. Not good. Church as business. Business as usual: America (and BTW I do appreciate this country in many ways but not this).
All of the most successful churches (in numbers and $$$) in our area, operate as businesses. Dealing with predators? Not on their radar. These churches are probably embedded with predators, because in a sense, the churches are predatory themselves in their mission, seeking a particular demographic (“Next Gen”, professional elites with donate-able income and a Good Look) to support their enterprise. They run on $$$. In the Dollar we trust.
The other side of the coin, addressing the needs of the vulnerable (truly truly needy orphans and widows)? Also not their mission, just like dealing with predators is not their mission. (My emphasis is on helping truly needy ‘cuz a measure of nonprofit “business” is scamming… playing on empathy.)
… the capitalization of Christianity… I believe Jesus addressed this in His time, or rather disrupted this, in the Temple of marketeers.
I’m wondering is ‘evanescent grace’ is what anti-vaxxers call deaths of the unvaccinated from covid, when the ‘faith-full’ anti-vaxx leaders preach ‘it’s not OUR fault – God did it’
honestly, politically-motivated theological ‘posers’ behind the anti-vaxx movement have introduced a cold and judgmental system of human sacrifice, calling it ‘freedom from vaccines’ and the PROOF is that they take NO responsibility, but instead, attempt to throw God ‘under the bus’ as the culprit who brings death to SOME of the unvaccinated.
sickness? sin? some form of alternate reality? or just plain crazy?
the worst of it is that so many of the ‘leaders’ ARE themselves secretly vaccinated AND boosted;
and still they preach ‘freedom from’ and what they reap is
human sacrifices resulting from their influence
‘God did it’???
yes, there WILL be an accounting coming, you bet
What I love most about the NASA photo used at the top is that the camera-facing part of the moon is the “dark side.” There are very few photos of it. Most disappointingly, I cannot see the image of the prism and rainbow that we all know is there.
Re: Julie Roys, the idea that any writer says, “Talk to me or I’ll publish ___” makes no sense. If a writer is planning to make something up, they DON’T NEED AN INTERVIEW.
Besides, why would any writer threaten to publish an untrue X, Y, or Z? That would give the other person a heads-up, and also something to use against the writer.
Hmm, what kind of person does threaten people who don’t cooperate? Bullying leaders in powerful churches. They are used to intimidating the flock, and they like telling people what to read and not read.
Ava Aaronson,
THIS!
> He won’t apologize for gossiping because it wasn’t intentional.
It’s a bit disconcerting to see (what looks to me like) evidence of a pelagian-ish conception of sin expressed by a professor at a Reformed-oriented seminary.
In the Reformed polity I observed for several years, something like this might rise to the level of formal charges and a trial by the presbytery.
Because x, y, and z can take on any real number values, true or not true has no relevance.
Ken F ( aka Tweed),
As you are an acknowledged expert on all things Calvin, I applaud you Ken for jumping to conclusions-as usual-. Your reasoning is suspect, but your bias is plain to see.
As the Black-eyed Peas sang -where is the love?
Best wishes for 2022
And one final question -is the use o the comments are closed” box to preserve artistic integrity or something else?
Happy Burns Night!
Here is the opening of the “address to the Unco Guid”
“My Son, these maxims make a rule,
An’ lump them aye thegither;
The Rigid Righteous is a fool,
The Rigid Wise anither:
The cleanest corn that ere was dight
May hae some pyles o’ caff in;
So ne’er a fellow creature slight
For random fits o’ daffin.
Solomon.–Eccles. ch. vii. verse 16
O ye wha are sae guid yoursel’,
Sae pious and sae holy,
Ye’ve nought to do but mark and tell
Your neibours’ fauts and folly!
Whase life is like a weel-gaun mill,
Supplied wi’ store o’ water;
The heapèd happer’s ebbing still,
An’ still the clap plays clatter. ”
I once read an interpretation of Revelation where The Beast represents a corrupt political system, The False Prophet a corrupt religious system — and The Whore of Babylon a corrupt economic system. All in cahoots with each other.
For that matter, in the Four Horsemen, Famine is also a dig against economic exploitation. Remember the cry “Don’t touch the olive oil or wine”? Well, the target audience Revelation was written for – churches in the Province of Asia (the Anatolian Peninsula, what’s now Turkey) – were subject to frequent famines due to their cash-crop plantation economy. So much arable land was planted for oil and wine (olives and grapes) in great plantations owned by absentee landlords in Rome that there wasn’t enough non-cash-crop land to feed the population. Like any Third World colony being exploited to enrich the colonial power.
There’s a lot more depth in there than the usual checklist of History Written In Advance (and kicking off any minute now… any minute now… any minute now…)
And married off a pet pedo to a properly-submissive single.
And penned puff pieces about the Christian Instituion of Slavery in the Antebellum South (I can guess what color he be…)
Prism and Rainbow on the far side of the Moon?
I listen to Coast to Coast AM (formerly the Art Bell Show) for my night-time weirdness fix, and never heard of that one.
That said, the NASA pic’s perspective has the Moon about 50-60% larger than it actually is relative to Earth. And shows its actual coloration – a rather dark grey. (Don’t know why full moon seems so white.)
And the fact that all the large dark mares are on the Earth side, with Farside only cratered. Probably due to some effect of tidal stress when first formed.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Sorry, HUG, I was referring to the Pink Floyd album (Dark Side of the Moon) cover but was too vague.
I almost mentioned the world’s tallest building™ that became impaled on the dark side of the moon on Phineas and Ferb, Season 2, Episode 35.
I listen to the “Astonishing Legends” podcast for similar reasons and am happy to admit I am a huge fan of their work.
“… theodudes get feisty when their authority or their “account” is questioned …”
Oh yeah, that’s quite common in NeoCal ranks. Squeeze one of the bros, and ugly oozes out. Not to mention, that in their world, for a woman to challenge a man is the unpardonable sin.
“The boys get their feelings hurt and they attack.”
New Calvinism is full of boy-pastors who never matured. If you don’t affirm, flatter and worship them, it drives them crazy. Attack-mode lies just beneath the surface of their skin.
“I believe that all BBC leaders need to undergo several sessions of psychotherapy. This stuff is nuts.”
New Calvinism drives everyone crazy after a while. At BBC, Piper Ground-Zero, it is a shorter trip.
oh My! Is anyone aware of what the real Pastor John is doing to guide his flock through these troubled waters?
I try to do my best. Calvin had a great explanation for this – I remain surprised Calvinists avoid using it. But it’s possible they avoid it because Calvin was wrong on this issue and is therefore not Calvinist enough for today’s Calvinists.
linda,
Found in your neck of the woods, too? They’re prolly all satellites of the same Mothership called Money Hungry. After all, thus type of “church” LOVES the whole satellite church schtick.
Calvin was bad enough, but the NeoCals have made him worse. New Calvinism is for men only – everyone else is subordinated and pushed to the margin, including Jesus.
They are bad-boys indeed, then!
Pleased to hear that you are on the mend, Dee … an answer to prayer. When you reach my age, your brain is always trying to catch up with something. Now, what was I going to do when you distracted me?
linda,
From the little friendly neighborhood church on the corner… we devolved into rows and rows in grand arenas or megas. Could church get any more impersonal? Yes, absolutely. Now “church” is just a projected image on a giant flatscreen from city to city. Satellites. With a man somewhere in the Land of Applause, the puppet master, pulling the strings from behind a curtain. Guessing this is not what Jesus and the Apostles had in mind. Is the church of our day relational? No, but it’s contractual, with covenants and NDAs.
How ’bout replacing NDAs with FDAs… Full Disclosure Agreements? Full transparency, anyone?
The church at large needs to return to the ancient paths … a journey all the way back to the first century would be a good thing. Believers would do well to tune out all the 21st century religious noise, read their Bibles, and pray. Reading the red would be a good place to start.
Samuel Conner,
This is interesting. So Reformed has actually been redefined by its own authorities? Thus if I join a Reformed church they are not what they say they are. (The same dudes are behind all the identikit religious franchises in England now anyway.)
For a certain type of man only, with his moll hanging off his elbow.
Ah you mean the time of Wellington and Macaulay!
Laphroaig, Scottish malt-whiskey … $60 a bottle.
A long time ago, when he was still alive, Michael Spencer (The Internet Monk) wrote a piece where he criticized Calvinism. Since I was a Calvinist at the time (and still am today) I was naturally upset at what he was saying. Michael got a lot of pushback from that post, but it was very important for him to do it.
What I didn’t know at the time, and what I gradually learned, was that Michael was speaking specifically about Baptists who were Calvinists. Even more specifically he was aiming at the John McArthur crowd. Phil Johnston knew this, and both he and Michael had a few disagreements.
I have to say, virtually all of the problems with Calvinism that are presented on this forum seem to be with American Baptist Calvinists (ABCs. D if they are Dispensationalist).
I’m an Australian Presbyterian. I’m Reformed and Calvinist. It’s not that Presbyterian or Reformed churches can’t be led by ungodly men (they most certainly can) but, at present, most of the problems with Calvinists seem to be cropping up with Baptists. Doug Wilson is probably an outlier here.
Any thoughts?
The devil made me do it.
Big screens, fog machines and skinny jeans?! Nah, Jesus wasn’t thinking along that line for his Bride.
Neil Cameron (One Salient Oversight),
A cult of personality by any other name (denom, org, formula, “theology”, brand, & leader) is still a cult of personality.
In the US it also includes Presbyterian Church in America (PCA) and some other reformed denominations. Many New Calvinists here claim to be one type of Presbyterian or another.
dee, thank you for the post today, even though you feel lousy. it’s rotten to be sick. i hope it is a thing of the past real soon.
“I was referring to the Pink Floyd album (Dark Side of the Moon) cover but was too vague.”
++++++++++++
a few weeks ago i was in deep need of a catharsis. a mottled mess of grief, regret, and other painful things that defied articulation.
i finally sat down at the kitchen table and listened to “Us and Them”.
i sobbed. and sobbed and sobbed.
that song gets to me like nothing else.
i don’t really pay attention to the lyrics… it’s just the chords, the sound of the music, and the strength of feeling in the voices.
so powerful
Ditto.
elastigirl,
Sorry you’re going through this. Hope you’re able to get the support and clarification you need.
Wild Honey,
Listened to @cultexpert Steve Hassan’s podcast interview of exmormon @johndehlin where they note BITE:
Control of Behavior, Information, Thought, Emotion. (IOW, no transparency, use of covenants & NDAs, etc.)
They also noted trifecta of power, vice, & $$$.
Bottom line is control.
Ken F ( aka Tweed),
What a shame your elbow got jogged! God must have thought people like me – I mean you – stupid enough to need that. (Said in my hearing.)
I think all the bad movements are modelled on monasteries and monastery diaries.
Spite, designer melodrama, no Holy Spirit, miserable prank after miserable prank.
All kudos to Mr Lecrae but I’ve got equal time for those who claim to have turned agnostic or non “theist” just to get the holy joes out of their faces.
I don’t think so. From the little that is stated (and perhaps there is too little to draw inferences), it looks like ‘opportunistic pelagianism’, in the sense that while one might affirm as a matter of doctrinal anthropology and hamartiology that sin is deeper than conscious intention (a consequence of thorough-going depravity), one could also, pragmatically, affirm that in specific instances one is confident that it was not, as a way of avoiding the self-humbling that is involved in admission of a fault.
I had an experience in which a highly theologically trained person assured me that the words I had heard spoken could not have proceeded from that person’s mouth as they conflicted with the believed theology. As if people are always highly self-consistent. It is very easy to self-deceive.
I feel confident that is not what is being suggested; it might be more along the lines of ‘that behavior was innocent in consciously-perceived intention and therefore is not sin.
‘consciously-perceived intention’ is IMO slippery. I think that our self-perceived intentions are less the causes of our actions and more self-serving or self-protective stories that we tell ourselves to explain or justify what we are doing. I suspect that the true intentions (which, to be clear, can align with our conscious self-perceptions — perhaps in highly righteous people they do this more consistently) are below conscious awareness.
This is all, I think, highly consistent with the Augustinian view of sin that (I believe) the Reformers embraced. That was what struck me as disconcerting about the “not intentional” defense in a theologically trained academic associated with BBC. A theologically sophisticated person, which one would expect a seminary professor to be, ought to know that this is suspect as a matter of confessed doctrine. That it is deployed in this situation has a bit of the feel of DARVO.
The arrogance of these leaders is extraordinarily concerning. We left Sov Grace after 25 years due to their “man worship” and the thoughts that they are modern day Temple priests in which the God only goes through them to talk to the masses.
Somehow, the entire idea of the Holy Spirit’s role in a believer, and in the church has been pushed to the back of the line. Why? Because it minimizes their role in the local body. Jesus is the head. Each one of us are just small parts of the entire body. These “Calvinistas” have perverted their roles and have destroyed the actual role of the Spirit.
Sandwich, please.
Thanks, Dee.
Hmmmm……
Tasty
Women make great sandwiches,
Dee tops them all.
Dee,
“I have never, ever, ever heard of the excuse he gives. He won’t apologize for gossiping because it wasn’t intentional. I was infuriated when I heard this. It shows the lengths that some Calvinists will go to show just how spiritually superior they are.”
I had to pause the podcast several times when Naselli was giving this excuse because I had the same reaction. Having been in one of these kinds of closed-door meetings, and hearing an elder/pastor dodge responsibility with this kind of faux sincerity and humility… well all I can say is it gave me flashbacks.
As in this case, the pastor I was dealing with was clearly going through a rehearsed response, doing his best to conjure up a concerned tone and look (though I can’t see Naselli in the podcast, of course), doing WHATEVER IT TOOK to avoid acknowledging a pattern of sin. And the other elders encouraged it because admitting one or more in their midst was spiritually abusive implicates the board of not having disqualified him sooner, in effect perpetuating the abuse.
Nobody is as SINCERE and HUMBLE as a Sociopath.
Nobosy is as Concerned, as Compassionate, as Polite and NICE.
Until the instant you Outlive Your Usefullness.
i.e. The Geraldine Defense.
Paid for by TITHES TITHES TITHES?
Why only ONE moll?
A REAL Manly Man would have an entire HAREM of trophy hotties hanging off his arms.
“SEE WHAT I’VE GOT THAT YOU! CAN’T! HAVE!”
Headless Unicorn Guy,
The cigars probably cost more over time. At any rate with no knowledge of his Scotch and cigars budget, it’s probably best to focus on what is known about Wilson, and much that is known warrants criticism.
Somewhereintime,
While in this case we can use the word “Calvinist” Popa Chuch, of Calvary Chapel fame was very much against “Calvinist”, but propagated the “touch not my anointed” phrase…
my point, thinking you are “special” transcendes religion and politics…
All the pigs were equal, some just more equal than others…
Wow. Just wow. The whole Reformed definition of sin is missing the mark, intentional or willful or not. Now, in the Wesleyan world unintentional sin is not “sin, properly so called”. That requires sinning knowingly AND the opportunity to resist. Or as my RCC friend says, “for sin to attach free will must come into play.” If I steal your car, yeah, I know better and it is a sin. Unless I steal it to save a life, that car being the only means of immediate transportation available to do so. Then while I have free will to not steal I lack the opportunity not to do so unless I am a total jerk. Unintentional sin with sin defined as missing the mark would fall under human weakness and the sin nature. Still covered by Jesus at the cross, still in need of confessing, still in need of being cleansed of it. Just not willful intentional sin or “sin properly so called” by Wesley.
So a Reformed dude excuses his sin by saying he did not intend to sin? Not very Reformed if you ask me, lol.
Shysters in the pulpit or on the church board will change the rules every single time so they always win and you do not.
Why not cut out the middle man and deal directly with Jesus, folks?
I agree.
It’s the best album they (Pink Floyd) ever did.
I believe that would be covered on the “incidentals” line in the church budget.
Wild Honey on Wed Jan 26, 2022 at 12:22 AM said:
elastigirl,
“Sorry you’re going through this. Hope you’re able to get the support and clarification you need.”
+++++++++++++++++
thank you for your kindness.
time helps. and remembering to consider the big picture. and just the tasky busy-ness of life in general.
(i certainly can’t stay in the catharsis moment)
…or can we?
is there a kind of ‘functional catharsis’ where we release stuff as we go throughout the day?
Muff Potter on Wed Jan 26, 2022 at 12:17 PM said:
“I agree.
It’s the best album they (Pink Floyd) ever did.”
+++++++++++++
our college-age son has discovered ’70s & ’80s music & Pink Floyd. he is informing us of this awesome music we need to know about.
elastigirl on Wed Jan 26, 2022 at 04:06 PM said:
“our college-age son has discovered ’70s & ’80s music & Pink Floyd. he is informing us of this awesome music we need to know about.”
Classic 😉
Everybody will have a different answer. Mine is yes. In tough times, I have trouble sleeping, and morning is the worst time of the day, full of questions and fears.
As the morning wears on, though, I eat something and get a few ordinary things done. By midday I’m usually in much better shape, even if the underlying problem has not gone away.
I hope you can find things that reduce your pain—maybe building on a natural rhythm, maybe deliberately changing your routine to interrupt difficult thoughts, or something else.
Jeffrey Chalmers,
Meant to say Papa “chuck”… of Chuck Smith fame
Exactly. Redefined. Front of T shirt: total depravity; back of T shirt: limited atonment. Also known as Jansensism, Jesuitry, Gramscian pincer movement, Girardian replication of the victim mentality.
Seminary = disseminate. The one chain of shops used to sell “Gaithersburg music”, anybody with Ort- in front of their names, Johnson, Macarthur, the whole package; mercifully all closed down.
The last wave of “reformed” I’ve come across are battling for their subsidiarity but probably naive about the issues.
Interesting that things Augustinian have been mentioned: his difference with Donatists was about him entrenching the caste system in the church and he was also hazy about initiation leading to warping of all sacraments.
Well stated.
Yes…
I have a feeling that the “awesome” music of his generation won’t be remembered 50 years from now.
Somewhereintime on Wed Jan 26, 2022 at 10:25 AM said:
“Somehow, the entire idea of the Holy Spirit’s role in a believer, and in the church has been pushed to the back of the line. Why? Because it minimizes their role in the local body.”
++++++++++++++
‘tcha. Holy Spirit derails and slashes control, power, job security. all of which drive revenue, of course.
Michael in UK on Wed Jan 26, 2022 at 07:58 AM said:
“I’ve got equal time for those who claim to have turned agnostic or non “theist””
+++++++++++
truly, the best human beings I know don’t sport the ‘christian’ badge (internally or externally).
i’ve oft’ commented that my friends and family who are agnostic, atheist, muslim, hindu, buddhist are outstanding human beings, living by a code of integrity unmatched by my christian peers.
i hate saying ‘my christian peers’. i hate the exclusivity of ‘christian’, as if no one else matters or counts (at least not until they turn ‘christian’ — and the conflicting quagmire of things that means).
i love having human peers, and see such majestic things in them everywhere I go.
And God’s Special Pets rubbing their Predestined Election in everyone else’s faces.
Much of today’s pop music will last fifty years. Quality runs the gamut now, as it always has.
Driving kids to school and practice, I used to dislike much of the music that the young passengers in our minivan tuned in. Now, ten or fifteen years later, I perceive real depth and skill in some of those songs. It was probably the same when my father brought home his hit parade after World War II: I can’t imagine that particular grandmother would approve of anything more challenging than the Andrews Sisters. 🙂
Friend,
Benny Goodman was the Jimi Hendrix of his day, but he did it with a clarinet.
Our daughter was a music therapist for a large assisted living/nursing facility in a very religious community. She often played piano and sang hymns in the special care unit for Alzheimer patients. She said that many were unable to remember what they had for lunch, but could recall the lyrics of those old hymns and sing along word for word. I suppose it will be that way for generations brought up on 7/11 songs projected on big screens in today’s churches.
Max–not likely they will remember the 7/11 songs. The songs are only sung for a relatively short time before a new crop of them comes around. And the same lyrics get recycled with new tunes. All that means failure to deeply embed them in memory. I have known folks that could not sing last year’s songs, much less those of 10-15 years ago.
Neil Cameron–you’re exactly right here:
“What I didn’t know at the time, and what I gradually learned, was that Michael was speaking specifically about Baptists who were Calvinists.”
Baptists becoming Calvinists (or rather, New Calvinists, which seems to involve all-male eldership above all) are a strange lot, far more so than my Presbyterian Calvinist friends. The pastor of the congregational church I’m currently attending is ordained Presbyterian, calls himself a Five Point Calvinist in private conversation, but does not preach anything near that from the pulpit.
The current strain of Baptist-Cavinist seems to revolve around Al Mohler’s shake-up of Southern Baptist seminaries a couple of decades ago, which has filtered down into many of today’s pastors. The ball has been taken, and run with, by Mark Dever and his 9Marks crowd and has moved northward. Many churches, whether small independent ones, mega-churches, or American Baptist churches in the northern USA, have been drawn into this orbit, often without being aware of the shift. The average person-in-the-pew isn’t all that interested in theology or ecclesiology or whether they have deacons or elders, male or uni-sex. What they want is authoritative preaching, and the benediction no later than noon.
One point of correction, though–you used the term “American Baptist” as in “Baptist who is American.” But here in the USA it’s a denomination (or rather, “association,” another argument…) called the American Baptist Convention (ABC), of which I am (still) a member. The southern, more conservative, counterpart is the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) of Mohler, Dever, et al. Formerly Jimmy Carter. The ABC and the SBC split over slavery in the 1860s but parts of them seem to be merging whether they know it or not, with many independents and churches of other denominations “affiliating” with the SBC, again, whether they are aware of it or not.
It’s called “revitalizing” churches. The new mission field. I got stories.
No doubt about it. Mohler is the architect of SBC’s New Calvinist movement. He began first at SBC’s flagship seminary in 1993 to return Southern Baptists back to their Civil War Calvinist roots. He then went on to position NeoCal leaders at all SBC seminaries. The objective was to indoctrinate the minds of a young reformed army of seminarians and release them on the SBC to plant and takeover churches for the movement. It worked.
Revitalize in SBC life really means Calvinize. Traditional (non-Calvinist) church members are forced out by the new reformers and their churches harvested for New Calvinism. The stealth and deception of these young “pastors” is not of God, no matter how you spin it.
Ted,
Max,
I’m convinced that the rank-and-file-pew-serfs don’t give a rat’s a$$ about ‘theology’, or who’s running the plantation.
So long as the pot-lucks still go on, and the social events Calendar remains unchanged, they’re happy campers.
Yep, it’s the modern equivalent to “Give us a King!”
Bill Hybels had a successful “seeker-friendly” ministry because he asked the pew which way they wanted to go and got out in front to lead them into Christianity Lite. When he fell, tens of thousands were left disillusioned not knowing an ounce more about Jesus and the Kingdom of God than when they first joined his movement. If you don’t turn around, you’re going to end up where you’re headed (that goes for church and nation).
Max, I’ve been comparing it with that too. Also Galatians, where Peter was taken in by the Judaizers along with the others, and Paul had to oppose him to his face.
And how did Peter respond to Paul’s rebuke? He didn’t say a word. He knew Paul was right. If only we had that much sense in the 21st century church!