Holly will have a jolly Christmas and hopes you will as well!
“I can’t control your behavior, nor do I want that burden … but I will not apologize for refusing to be disrespected, to be lied to, or to be mistreated. I have standards; step up or step out.”— Steve Maraboli
I got my mom back to her independent living apartment, but she has many needs, and Christmas is upon us. I am posting a link to a letter causing an uproar at BBC. You have your work cut out for you: An Open Letter to Bethlehem Baptist Church.
The authors are long-time members and have held some leadership roles. The response of the church has been ugly. Lots of authority-type posturing as well. No surprise there. Julie Roys posted Opinion: Response of Bethlehem Baptist Elders to Open Letter is Prime Example of DARVO
I warned you that this might be a short post. It is, but the reading is long and involved. The links offer up a great deal of insight. I now have another reason why I wouldn’t step foot into Bethlehem Baptist Church. It seems to me to be rather creepy.
I have so much to say, but I’m overwhelmed at the moment. It appears a couple of my family members may have contracted Covid (they are vaccinated and boostered.) It looks like our Christmas gathering may be canceled.
I wish you all a very merry Christmas. The bells are still ringing despite the pain and suffering in this world—peace, and goodwill to all.
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1
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Dee, I told my brother I recommended you give Holly plain yogurt and he was not happy with me, something about the dog getting fat. I said, “she’s not going to feed her the leftovers of a half-dozen cartons of yogurt, come on!” (Why yes, we did have this issue in our family.) I assured him you were not going to feed Holly junk food.
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My attempts to click through the link to the Roys article leads to a “can’t reach this page” message
Get the same result trying to reach the home page of her site.
————–
CV active case prevalence in my region crossed above 1% for the first time in about a year. Will avoid gatherings again.
FWIW, N95 respirators are thought to be more effective against the recent more transmissible variants than are cloth and surgical procedure masks.
I’ve been using 3M Aura 9205+ and 9210+ for a couple of months. They fit very securely (though some face shapes may be harder to get a good seal with these; my squarish face and “heroic” schnozz seem to work perfectly with this design) and I get no sense of leaks at the fabric/skin contact surface. When the elastic is “fresh”, the tension points over the cheekbones do press strongly into one’s face; I imagine that in future I may have permanent creases here that will identify me as an “Aura” fan.
They can be had at modest price at Home Depot and probably other home improvement stores, or online at Amazon. In case quantities they are under $1 each, but most online distributors will not sell to households. I’ve been getting cases from Amazon and passing out to whomever will accept them. Nearly everyone in my circle of family, friends and acquaintances is still relying on cloth or procedure masks.
Stay well, all. If projections prove out, the hospitals will be heavily stressed this Winter, and many of them already have staffing issues.
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Wade Mullen’s quote for the piece cut right to the chase:
“The response of leadership does not seem to answer the most important question: Are the concerns raised by church members legitimate and have those concerns been thoroughly reviewed by those who do not have a special interest in the outcome of that review? Instead, they seem to be to be responding to how those concerns are being raised and accusing complainants of malicious intent, sinful methods, undermining authority, and promoting division. I’m not sure how leadership can make such claims without having conducted an impartial and thorough review. It would be more productive and healthier if the requests to respect authority were accompanied by a spirit of openness and inquiry, a willingness to do a check, preferably by an independent third party, and a refusal to accept any quick resolutions. In fact, that willingness to be open, to ask, “Who are we being that people are finding it difficult to trust us?” can increase trust and a respect for authority without ever having to demand it.”
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“When people show you who they are, believe them the first time.” ~Maya Angelou
DG, JP, & BBC showed who they are a loooooong time ago. The Sheus, who wrote the letter, are late to the awareness. It’s OK. We don’t all know stuff simultaneously.
As Jesus said, shake the scandals off the sandals and move on.
Don’t look back.
Yesterday the NYT posted testimony of a young Afghan girl who was being forced to marry an old Taliban guy. She fled, for a new life but sacrificed all her family relationships. Forever.
Lots of dust-shakin movin-on needed in christendom. Be brave, churchies, like the young girl.
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Love the dog pic
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I don’t know too much about BBC, but there were a few DARVO experts at my last church. Why does this seem to be everywhere??
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Sounds like the name of a veterinary disease.
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Dee, I hope that your family’s health improves. You’ve had so much going on. You are such a good and dear soul. You deserve a peaceful Christmas, no matter how many or how few gather with you.
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I’ve been bumming a few periodically off my doctor’s office. Need to try tomorrow for a couple more. The CN95s over at the UPS store are only 80% effective instead of 95%.
To stretch their lifespans, I periodically spray my N95s down with alcohol (70% isopropranol from CVS) to sanitize after use. Comes from last year when you couldn’t find a mask or sanitizer to save your life.
I have a prominent nose, so it takes a little work to get a good fit. I also hold my mouth partially open to stretch the mask for a tighter seal all around.
So far, so good.
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Whew! “Something’s not right” is an understatement … there is a LOT not right at Bethlehem Baptist! BBC could be considered the flagship church of the New Calvinist movement and it is sinking. Piper is considered by some as the Father of New Calvinism … he’s done, he just hasn’t quit yet. We can blame the Passion Conferences for putting Piper on the map … if they hadn’t given him a platform, he would have remained a weird little guy in obscurity. I dare say that the concerns flagged in the open letter can be found in varying degrees in every New Calvinist church … the whole movement is so not God.
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Headless Unicorn Guy,
That’s Parvo (canine parvovirus), a very dangerous infection in puppies.
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From checking Reddit on the subject, it’s not just “staffing issues”. A lot of nurses (and some doctors) are just burned out and quitting, period.
Besides burnout, they’re on the receiving end of a steady stream of abuse coming from the unvaxxed/anti-vaxx/anti-mask “Purebloods” and their relatives who DEMAND the latest fad/quack cure (currently horse dewormer paste) and claim the hospitals are there to Murder Patriots. Some docs have even been physically attacked (as in beaten up), and receiving death threats are common.
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I imagine that this would work fine for micron-sized dust particles, but I’m not sure for sub-micron particles, such as virions. I have the impression that some kinds of N95s (perhaps all?) filter the smallest particles through surface charge on the filter material fibers.
This protocol might be better:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC7161499/
this item expressly advises AGAINST using alcohol (not clear whether ethanol or isoproponal or both are in view) to clean, as that affects the surface charge.
there are other “refreshing” methods that were proposed back in 2020 during the height of the N95 shortage.
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I’m a scientist and have been following the article preprints on the Omicron variant. It seems about half or less as deadly as Delta, which is good. But the current vaccines which protected nine out of ten from infection, are in about the 50-60% range with this one. They do however significantly boost your immune system so if you do get it and are vaxxed you will most likely survive.
But… Its at least twenty times more transmissible. Half of twenty is ten, so you can expect in the five to ten times as many hospitalizations. That means a lot of dead people.
At least that what it means if you aren’t vaxxed, don’t mask, and go into areas where mask and vaccine compliance is low. If you live in one of those areas, best option if you can is order everything online and don’t go out.
But the doctors at Walter Reed may have a wide range MRNA vaccine. It’s completed some trials successfully with more coming. We should know in half a year if it works well.
Merry Christmas to all. If you can’t hug your fellow humans this Christmas hug your pets. Oh yeah, and Rose our Beagle girl says to make sure there are lots of Christmas treats for the four legged family members!
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Please tell him that Holly is terribly underweight. I now have one overweight dog-buttercup. One normal weight-Tulip and now Holly-underweight. I have given her some yogurt and a probiotic. It is slowly helping. I really would like to get her up to a normal weight.
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I had a puppy that got DARVO. She did manage to pull through.
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I do too.
Mrs. Muff and me have two rescues that we took in about 3 years ago.
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I remember in the film Soylent Green, old timey actor Edward G. Robinson wept into his hands saying: “How did we come to this?”
I feel the same.
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Regardless of what is going on at Bethlehem, anyone who writes a 31 page open letter with a table of contents, executive summary, and appendices is a crank. These people have adopted the real Piper passion, which is to take oneself really, really, REALLY seriously.
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dee,
Loved pups eat better. Trust.
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Jake Gustavson,
Granting that the contents of the letter are accurate, do you have an even dimmer view of the events and persons discussed in the letter?
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Gave up in disgust when I reached the deployment of 1 Cor 13 as a charge against the authors of the Open Letter.
Evidently, one of the “all things” that love believes is “whatever the elders say, even if you know differently.”
With apologies to Friend, there are times when things need to be leveled to the ground and the ground salted. This might be one of them.
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HOLLY !!!!!
Merry Christmas, Dee –
thanks for the picture, it brings joy 🙂
(love how the little tongue sticks out to the side, so cute!)
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Given that the real charismatic is the key to Scripture meaning, and that Mr & Mrs Sheu haven’t had any grounding in true doctrine, and that DARVO is actually BBC doctrine – NOT “malpractice” – they oughtn’t to place any dependence in an outcome. Showing the goons up to the extent they show themselves up, if one is risk takers: but don’t necessarily lumber yourself with a duty to “warn” them.
This played out – 50 times smaller, no seminary, fewer flashy videos, just as many international links and ties – in my face, at several churches in succession.
BY THE WAY elders are the LAST people you should want to waylay leavers. (Did I read the bit about elders right?)
They went home by another way – don’t go into the house but make for the hills – don’t bring your gift into the temple just find your brother somewhere else (“reconcile” = “communion” *) – shake the scandals off your sandals and leave that town behind.
These statements are especially about some of the denominations / congregations and not necessarily an unreceptive world. (I wonder why is that).
* we’ll be betrayed by our own peers (says Scripture) BUT we must get in practice by making that move before, anyway.
The hilarious thing is church (s) hopping irritates YWAM no end !!! !!! !!! 😉
P.S thank you all for your prayers for me,
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Michael in UK,
It also played out at an even bigger church – again, same ingredients, DARVO in whatever rulebook is being substituted this week, i.e not “malpractice”, the only difference was there was a legit. local church that was blameless and has to be blamed.
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Yeah, that one was about as hypocritical as you can get! I have yet to hear anyone accuse New Calvinist church leaders as loving. To use love – to pull the 1 Cor 13 card – as a sword just tells you what the heart and temperament is in the BBC pulpit and elder body. IMO, the Open Letter is a demonstration of love – the sort that desires to protect others from a ministry gone astray.
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Apparently, provided that the contaminant exposure is not high, N95s can be repeatedly re-used
https://twitter.com/masknerd/status/1473748051412008960?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1473748051412008960%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nakedcapitalism.com%2F2021%2F12%2Flinks-12-23-2021.html
if the link does not display properly, it’s @masknerd and the Tweet is:
Most people are surprised that N95/KN95/KF94 can be used more than 8 hrs. Actually the N95 spec requires that these masks maintain >95% after 200mg of loading. How much is 200mg, same as wearing the mask 24/7 in Shanghai for about 200 DAYS! Straps will be the first thing to fail
—
this would suggest, if you like Auras, to prefer the 9210+ to the 9205+. the 9210 is about 10 cents more expensive per each but the strap is elastic fabric rather than rubber band and probably will retain its stretch longer.
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No apology necessary. I agree that some institutions need to go away, and I have certainly seen a toxic congregation. But the bad ones tend to self-destruct, and their innocent members deserve to have a say in their future.
My concerns (if it matters to anyone at all) are three notions:
“This church is bad, therefore all churches must go.”
“This Bapti-Metho-Luther-Presby-Catholic church is bad, therefore the whole Bapti-Metho-Luther-Presby-Catholic denomination needs to go.”
“This church is bad, therefore let us shut down all churches, schools, libraries, courthouses, hospitals, etc., etc.”
I was astounded when several people warned me against sending our offspring to college, because they might get radicalized in some way. Astoundingly, the folks offering this advice went to college themselves. Naturally, they go to college-educated doctors and dentists when the need arises.
As my wise old dad used to say, “Don’t bite the foot that stomps your grapes.” 🙂
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Take it to the bank! “If this teaching or movement is merely human it will collapse of its own accord” (Acts 5:38-39).
TWW deals largely with ministers and ministries on the margin of American Christianity. New Calvinism has become the poster child of what is wrong in the organized church; BBC is but one example of a NeoCal train off the track. Toss in church as entertainment, Christianity Lite, fundaevangelicalism, and assorted other mistruths and heresies and you have the Body of Christ wondering what will be next before God steps in. I would like to think that the majority of pulpits and pews in America still have their spiritual heads screwed on straight. Finding them in your area might be tough, like discovering a treasure buried in the field, but keep your head up Christian … redemption draweth nigh.
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That.
And, to everyone (not just Wartburgers), stay safe and be well.
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Unless they’re The Grapes of Wrath.
Steinbeck’s novel, and the movie (1940).
Both highly recommended.
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Parvo? (as in Parvovirus)
Christmas can be rescheduled, if needed. At least Holly (and the other pugs) will have a good Christmas, congrats! We may get a Christmas temporary foster to help out the local dog shelter (lost one of our 3 dogs last summer).
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From Julie Roys article:
‘ Stokes also likens the Sheus’ questioning of the elders’ actions to the “disdain of authority and leadership” that’s “epidemic” in the culture. He notes that this disdain “hurts fathers, hurts schoolteachers, police precincts in South Minneapolis, and elders.” ‘
Okay……. Looks like Stokes is comparing pews peons who don’t march in lockstep according to his demands to rebellious children and criminals. Is BBC really a church, is it just a fascist cult where the dictators are desperately clinging to their weakening power?
…….. No bereans allowed….. Paul must have said that somewhere, too.
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Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
They really do embody fascism, and not just them, any religion that prizes authoritarian control over its devotees embodies fascism.
Strong-man dictator with yes men as ‘elders’?, yeah, they fit the bill.
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The looming Omicron storm might be a good time for folks on this forum to stop and pray for all humans.
My county is barely 33% vaxxed, much lower boosted, and masks are seen as a political statement along the line of “I am a card carrying commie pinko out to destroy our nation” so as you can guess, very few in sight. Concerts, football games, plays, and church services are packed weekly. Transmission is already very high, and our hospital already starting to feel the crunch. All this is pre Omicron.
We’ve used curbside and once again gotten ready to stay at home for the next 6 to 8 weeks, sequester the mail, etc. Topped off our wood supply today so we should be toasty warm if cold weather ever arrives. When we are anywhere another person could show up we wear our n95s, gotten last summer from Amazon at decent price. We fit check each other.
Merry Christmas and stay safe everyone!
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Nancy2(aka Kevlar) on Thu Dec 23, 2021 at 12:27 PM said:
“Is BBC really a church, is it just a fascist cult where the dictators are desperately clinging to their weakening power?”
+++++++++++++++++++
“Mr./Ms. ______, tear down that wall.”
…things are headed in that direction, at least.
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My two sons went through the wringer in the New Calvinist church they attended while in college. I never expected their faith to get such an assault by being a part of a church. None of us were aware of New Calvinism at the time. Working through that disaster was what led me to TWW. As I was trying to understand Calvinism TWW links kept popping up in my searches.
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Welcome to the third surge: Omicron. If anyone wants to go over data concerning this there is a Doctor in the UK who does that every day. His name is Dr. John Campbell and he has been doing daily coverage on Omicron as it is now all over the UK. Google his name if you care to watch.
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Shameful. I am so sorry that happened to your sons. It’s good that you figured it out and did what you could to help them.
When I was in college, the Christian fellowship was certainly the most radical bunch in my life. I felt safe with them… should not have. I would not have let my guard down around a secular group. (To be clear, the folks who thought our offspring should skip college were in a lather about political extremism.)
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In every New Calvinist church in my area.
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When the New Calvinism bubble breaks (it will), there will be thousands of disillusioned followers left in its wake … they may never attempt church again. Church history will not be kind to the new reformation.
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Lots of bubbles.
… when church people become googly-eyed with their celebs, be they Duggars or Pipers or Wilsons or Hybels or whomever. “The Look”.
Anna, married to a convicted pedo, prolly just can’t part with her Hollywood dream of marrying into a TLC celebrity family. Just too much to part with, pedo-husband or whatever.
Hollywood types get away with crime among their followers. The followers have celebrity fever … fervor. Nothing to do with Jesus, their passion & idolatry is addiction to bling, sin, evil.
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Paul notes in Romans 2:24 when quoting the Old Testament: As it has been written: “For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you.” This is the danger of letting in grievous wolves and hirelings for all the reasons listed here time and again.
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Great article. But is there something more recent that anyone knows of?
I just ordered a 7 pack of Kenneth Cole masks based on this article:
https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/12/mask-up-how-to-choose-and-maintain-the-best-masks-for-use-against-covid-19/
And based on the article I’ve been wearing KN95 masks past their effective dates. [sigh]
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Or they have looked at the way people who raise such things in the Evangelical (and other) churches are attacked and decided to make sure they had all the facts laid out in the clear. So as to make sure they were not playing the typical “whack-a-mole” defense like most people who write simpler letters.
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There will be a few but most will hunker down and declare the apostates were not just reformed enough. And continue own.
Look around the world just now. This is playing out in all kinds of ways in various institutions and faiths. Not just the Christian church.
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I’m a scientist by training, though not by profession, and I’ve been following some of this stuff too. (I’m quite into the idea of what ZedDoggMD refers to as “the alt-middle”.)
There’s some interesting stuff coming fae Hong Kong on this that you’ve probably come across an’ a’; early indications as yet, but the gist of it is that the Decepticon variant reproduces extremely fast in the cells lining the bronchial tubes; but less rapidly than the Delta variant in lung tissue itself. So there’s lots of it in the airways to get breathed out and this makes it more infectious, but less of it in the lungs to cause pneumonia directly.
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I am eagerly looking forward to the yearly tradition of finding out what I got my wife and kids for Christmas. Very exciting.
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NC Now,
Consider getting a 10- or 20-pack of 3M Aura 9210+ for evaluation. If they fit well, you’ve found a keeper (they fit me perfectly, but a family member with a face longer than mine finds that the nose bridge slips when speaking; I suppose one could speak through a clenched jaw, but a better fitting device would be easier to use)
I’m uneasy about interventions to “refresh” or “clean” N95s. They work against small particles using electric charges on the surfaces of the fibers in the material, and these can be “erased” by some cleaning methods.
Per this item, they are re-usable until they have absorbed a high ( above 200 milligram — that’s a LOT of airborne particles) contaminant load:
https://twitter.com/masknerd/status/1473748051412008960
My practice has been to re-use multiple times my “old” 9210s in relatively low-threat environments (grocery store at opening hour, for example, or out of doors speaking at a respectable distance to strangers) but use only a lightly-used or new one for higher risk settings such as medical office and hospital visits. The ones that I no longer trust to protect me in any virus-threat settings (I don’t have an objective criterion — they just start to look ratty or soiled) are set aside for use in the yard (don’t want to inhale bacteria or mold spores when stirring compost) or dirty/dusty jobs indoors.
In case quantities (perhaps form a “buying group” with like-minded people), these are under $1 each.
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Same for me: The Navigators. It was a mixed bag that included blessings. But not just blessings
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Have a HOLLY, jolly Christmas, Dee.
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To my mind, that depends on when they write it. In fact the very details you refer to there suggest something fundamentally different from something thoughtlessly splattered onto their twitter account.
Someone who wanders into a church at random and writes an extensive critique of it is a crank, yes. (I’ll always remember a minister here in Scotland telling me about how a total stranger walked up to him after one of the Sunday services and proclaimed “I’m God’s building-inspector”. It really happened.) But there are also churches where long-serving insiders have tried very hard for a very long time, and typically at great personal cost, to exhort overbearing leaders to desist from building a performance-driven, legalistic bullying culture. In that case, you can either give up and “let God do it in His timing” or whatever… or you can conclude that you are part of God’s doing it in His timing, and take the next step.
Too many carnal church leaders complain about believers who don’t honour authority and leadership, when their real beef is believers who don’t give them the respect they believe should go with their position.
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Ken F (aka Tweed),
Whereas I’m looking forward for the once-in-a-lifetime tradition of following the James Webb Telescope launch…
Also I posted this comment twice, except that I mis-typed my name the first time around, so WordPress filtered it out. Sigh…
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The reinventions are endless. For marketing purposes.
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Insiders sometimes do have the credibility to expose problems, and not just in flawed teachings. Some years ago, volunteer bookkeepers in a local church suspected that a national financial officer was taking money. They spent months meticulously tracking down evidence and documenting their conclusions. Then they presented the package in a private meeting with one of the higher-ups. Anything could have happened. The denomination did the right thing, prosecuting the thief and speaking frankly to church members and the public. The thief went to prison. Understandably, some people left the denomination, or at least stopped giving.
This is one case in which the bigwigs believed the volunteers, despite an obvious threat to reputation and the coffers.
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Definitely also a once in a lifetime event for me as I am 80. Among the JWST capabilities is the ability to detect oxygen in nearby exoplanet atmospheres, a fairly definitive sign of at least plant life. Nearby in astronomical distance is perhaps 100 light years. Our Bible treats both God and Jesus strictly in the singular so a positive sign of exoplanet life would seem to have religious implications. Still some patience is needed as it might be two years before such tests have been done and results published. Wikipedia would be the natural place to access more detail about this comment.
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And that type of church would likely dismiss anything shorter as irrelevant and/or insufficient evidence. Sometimes the only way to get the point across is to go into that level of detail.
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Pharisees who love the best seats in the house and the respectful greetings in the streets.
It is hard to get Pharisees to see, accept, admit to being a Pharisee. They love their position more than they love God and all the things God stands for. (righteousness rather than self-righteousness, justice, humility, empathy, love, etc…)
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Nick Bulbeck,
HAHA – I’m God’s mystery customer 😉 a.k.a the canary down the coal mine
Friend,
NC Now,
In most of my cases we (dropping out at different times) were so distressed we didn’t have the skill to document the ills and then track down an authority that was moderately likely to not manoeuvre. In another of my cases however, a separate element within our context had indeed done this but the authority who tried to act got outmanoeuvred. Dr Judith Herman urges spaces not controlled by authorities where we can freely reconstruct the facts we have witnessed, at our pace afterwards: one such space we had got sabotaged by a “Jungian” (Abraxas worshipper) who had claimed a healing influence.
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Just like Boko Haram & ISIS because the Taliban weren’t Islamic enough.
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Samuel Conner,
My regular doctor’s office is closed until after Christmas.
I’ll be there Monday to beg a few N95s.
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Headless Unicorn Guy,
Terrorists.
Who says the Crusades with swash buckling holier than thou Crusaders were only during the Dark Age?
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I disagree. They carefully outline and summarized their concerns. This is far better than “I feel you hurt my feelings.” They did an impressive job.
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Michael in UK,
IOW, someone saw, and decision makers didn’t listen.
Church.
Myth vs Facts
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They note in detail their legacy at BBC.
If all pew people were this attentive, church would be transformed.
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TWW
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In a nutshell.
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“If all pew people were this attentive”, authoritarian leaders would have no one to lead, BBC and New Calvinism would have dissolved years ago. Contrary to reformed theology, the good people at BBC really do have a free will – they should choose to exercise it and head for the exit.
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Best thing I’ve read on the Internet in a long time.
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I see we have similar organizing principles.
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… which is a misplaced passion … a Christian hedonist who has chased the wrong dream and created a nightmare for so many.
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A group I meet with weekly via Zoom includes someone with the last name of “Webb”. He made a point of bringing this up at the last meeting. So I sent out an announcement about “his” telescope being launched Christmas morning. Weather permitting.
In terms of Santa “making a list, checking it twice”, this telescope has over 300 possible failure points before it starts “working”. I suspect there are a few 1000 lists with a few hundred checks on each.
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Many of them will then convert to fundamental atheism.
A belief system just as rabid as the most radicalized ixtian sects.
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Another bubble just broke:
https://www.rawstory.com/venue-church-chattanooga/
A church workerbee regrets enabling an adulterous camera-loving “pastor” to grow his evil empire of a mega church.
At least the workerbee is self aware.
More enablers need to honestly admit the evil empires + Darth Vaders they have spawned.
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NC Now,
Lipids, via hot soapy water, destroy the virus.
https://coronavirusexplained.ukri.org/en/article/pub0006/
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It is good that the workerbees get it, get around to understanding it.
It would be nice if more leaders would honestly admit the Darth Vaders/Mark Driscolls they give approval to, voice to, and platforms to stand on.
When Driscoll’s workerbees were trying to bring Darth Driscoll into accountability, a church leader running a conference far away invited Driscoll in, defended him, and encouraged other pastors to give him a standing O.
Nice.
Circle the wagons, oh yea great leaders, rather than hold one of your own accountable.
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Jake Gustavson on Wed Dec 22, 2021 at 11:29 PM said:
“Regardless of what is going on at Bethlehem, anyone who writes a 31 page open letter with a table of contents, executive summary, and appendices is a crank.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
i’m not sure what a crank is, but I can tell it’s not a compliment.
seems to me the Scheus set out to present their observations and concerns in a comprehensive way as if arguing a thesis —
as a matter of necessity,
anticipating all the many ways christian leaders can manipulate people by twisting and spinning events, circumstances, mere scriptural ideas if not scripture itself to mean whatever is convenient for them.
indeed, look at what kenny stokes says here in the Nov. 6 Q&A meeting about the Sheu’s letter, in an effort to discredit their letter as a whole (which is much easier than addressing the detailed content of the letter).
He trips over his words like he’s scrambling on a scree slope (with gravel in his mouth, and gravel underfoot):
Commenter: “..and most of what you’ve said seems trustworthy. Until you tell me that the Scheus are doing wrong.”
Kenny: “I just don’t have a good legal justification for it.”
Commenter: “They’re not asking for legal.”
Kenny: “Yeah, that’s….that’s… what ports it into christian relationship, christian conflict resolution,…and the bible says a lot about that, and nowhere does it say, …sss- it doesn’t say…do it– that way…it just– doesn’t.”
.
.
He’s the King of The Manipulators (in his authoritative pastor hat) as he pathetically tries to sway everyone to reject their letter wholesale as ‘unbiblical’ (thus sinful) because
“nowhere does it say, sss- it doesn’t say…do it…that way…it just– doesn’t.”
i call that abuse of power.
and I hereby crown Kenny Stokes ‘King of the Dweebs’.
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I call this the “Take Your God And Shove It!” backlash reaction.
And a lot of people get STUCK at that point and never grow beyond it.
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OldJohnJ
Great to hear from you as always, OldJohnJ; and may you live to see many iconic JWT images (and discoveries)!
I’ve no doubt you’ve been following the Parker solar probe as well, from which video footage of sorts (taken back in April, I think – certainly some months’ processing ago) from within the solar corona has been published. I’m undecided about where this achievement ranks alongside the amazing images the Soviet Venera craft sent back from the surface of Venus some 30-40 years ago – photos from the very floor of planetary hell.
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But how much damage can they do in the process?
Like the Third Reich in its 13 years (out of 1000)?
Like the USSR in its 70 years?
“Temporary” can still mean a long time.
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The thought occurs that had the Open Letter authors (and the individuals mentioned in it who are said to have been harmed by the leadership) followed procedures that the leaders prefer (earlier and much quieter, less- or in-visible protest), it would not have led to repentance on the part of the accused parties and reconciliation with the aggrieved parties. That this is so can IMO be seen in the character of the present response.
It seems much more likely that it would have led to a sooner “circle the wagons” response and perhaps more circumspect forms of leader misconduct in the future.
Sometimes, the wisest policy is to quietly observe and document so that when one finally does speak up, one has a very strong case. (this is, of course, the point made in Friend’s comment.)
If the leaders want the congregation to have confidence that Biblical conflict resolution principles can work at BBC, it might be prudent to manifest a measure of humility and repentance in the face of the present complaint, even if it looks to the leadership to be procedurally invalid.
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MERRY CHRISTMAS, WARTBURGERS!
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They can preach til the cows come home … about nothing.
Meanwhile:
https://www.rawstory.com/venue-church-chattanooga/
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They (neo-cals) are about being RIGHT, love has nothing to do with it.
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“Samuel Conner on Fri Dec 24, 2021 at 04:45 PM said:
“Sometimes, the wisest policy is to quietly observe and document so that when one finally does speak up, one has a very strong case.”
++++++++++++++
‘tcha
you want biblical, kenny? i’ll show you biblical on that one.
(speaking to the air, here.)
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Max on Fri Dec 24, 2021 at 04:57 PM said:
MERRY CHRISTMAS, WARTBURGERS!
++++++++++++++
Yes, Merry Christmas, friends.
(…and i have visual images of all of you. I’ve been right on this before. you all look great, by the way)
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I’m left to wonder, where were the authors when Natalie Hoffman was being tortured and held up to public ridicule and excommunicated from BBC? This group (I won’t call it a church) has been a boil on the body for a much longer time than the last year.
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Ditto here to all Wartburgers…
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Merry Christmas to all !!
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“… Pastor Tavner Smith … rumors he was having an affair with a longtime employee … currently in the process of divorcing his wife … cheated on his wife with his assistant and lead worship leader … would regularly take credit for the work of others ..”
All of this covered by “grace” of course.
I can hear the congregation now in his defense “Yeah, Pastor Smith is a bit of a bad-boy, but he sure can preach and he’s so entertaining!”
Bad-boy preacher-actors would not have a stage if it weren’t for a gullible audience willing to buy a ticket to the show. So, the beat goes on.
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Merry Christmas everyone! Here is a link to the newest Audible Waters instrumental Christmas song I finished this year: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNl2cYA_yTA
and the link to whole playlist of 12 songs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohUwfwU9wa4&list=PLK8B6r21sytxafaUi1DwfFj-qk95kWYli
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Just like Boko Haram and ISIS declaring the Taliban were not just Islamic enough.
(Now two levels beyond “Mohammed was not Islamic enough…”)
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That’s why they’re called “The RIGHTeous”, Max.
RIGHTeousness plus Power is one destructive combination.
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The same look as Bella beholding EDWARD (sparkle sparkle…)
The same look as Harley Quinn beholding The Joker.
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I think I can predict how they’d answer the question “Who won the 2020 Election?”
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P.S. They actually call themselves “Pure Bloods” instead of Unvaxxed. They actually claim after the Bill Gates Deep State Plandemic Depopulation Genocide the surviving women will all throw themselves on the Pure Bloods and beg for their uncontaminated semen.
Drisco-Biblical Manhood without a Bible.
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Ava Aaronson,
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Muff, Headless, NC Now, Ava,
The CIC are in the footprints of the shallowly intense William James (“rub along” and make Britain / Brazil / any country great just like Herbie Spencer promised) and the literally sinister Heidegger (who took his 18 y o student to bed, i.e body theology, using “being” as decoy), neither of whom had a sense of humour.
Watch for teachings on Believing Thomas who asked Jesus the best questions and whom Jesus gave the best answers (directly and not supplementally). If your preacher, or your betters’ idol, sounds like a neurotic nun, drop out.
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Believer on Fri Dec 24, 2021 at 05:58 PM said:
“I’m left to wonder, where were the authors when Natalie Hoffman was being tortured and held up to public ridicule and excommunicated from BBC?”
+++++++++++++
extremely valid question.
Mickey and Hannah Sheu, if you’re reading, would you respond?
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Michael in UK,
Herbie would make great “elder” material because he was 25 when he made his “splash” from which we are all still bobbing.
(I should have stated “directly as well as supplementally”)
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First few items on the check list complete. Launch was successful.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/12/webb-telescope-away-with-two-major-hurdles-cleared-after-flawless-launch/
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NC Now,
Indeed yes – so far, so good.
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THanks for the DARVO framework. It’s not just institutional officers who do this. I’m encountering it right now — on Christmas Day — in dealing with someone who clearly has some kind of personality disorder. Not that I can do much other than to palliate the situation, but it’s useful to have this framework in mind to help make sense of behavior patterns, and to remind one to be on one’s guard around specific people.
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HUG–I bet you can indeed! We have done business only curbside or shipped since the pandemic hit, even when the numbers dropped enough last spring we felt safe enough to travel a bit, do garage sales if outdoors, and even went to church twice. (Then delta hit and we voluntarily locked down again.) There are some great mom and pop stores that will accommodate that, as well as chain stores. But there are a few, if you call and ask about it, will give you a cussing. We have them on our “don’t shop there” list now for post pandemic. The CSA battle flag and a certain failed candidate’s political flag fly from many properties.
Omicron is coming. I hope for all our sakes it turns out to be much milder. But I expect if it isn’t our hospital system may collapse this time. Pre Omicron we have a full covid wing and are shipping patients. That worked last year only until there was no place to ship them.
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Here is what TGC posted today: https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/patron-have-jesus/
They cannot imagine relationships apart from hierarchy and subordination.
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Ken F (aka Tweed),
I don’t think the article is objectionable per se; the trouble IMO is that many modern day hierarchs in the churches do not imitate Jesus’ posture of self-denial and sacrifice for the sake of the flock.
A memorable line from Nickism that I think I will not forget until most other memories have left me is something along the lines of “Jesus is a King that I would follow into any battle.”
The problem IMO isn’t hierarchy per se , but what kind of hierarchy and what character of hierarchs? Is it a hierarchy of self-giving love, or a hierarchy of power and control?
If the hierarchs aren’t going to imitate Jesus, they should not complain if they are not loved or obeyed.
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Oh, a bad church can cause a lot of damage before it closes or loses toxicity. I make that point because the people of TWW are not alone, and we often have no power beyond our words online. All bad churches have weaknesses, and all have observers inside and out who know something is wrong.
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The article appears to be written on a very flimsy foundation: “Jesus seems to be using imagery from the Greco-Roman custom of patronage: an unequal, vertical relationship which a first-century audience would have readily understood.”
“Seems to be” could be wrong, which would invalidate all of it. Evidence to support that statement would have been good. I don’t see anything in the Bible making the case that Jesus was Hellenized or Romanized. It could be that he was, but the Bible and ancient church history present him as far more Jewish than Greek or Roman. The author seemed to stretch too far, as if Christians don’t understand that Jesus is Lord. Buy maybe in New Calvinism they don’t.
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Ken F (aka Tweed),
The article makes me ill in light of the expectations of leaders in related to TGC. They really don’t want Chriatians to receive love and kindness.
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Bridget,
How will we have providential perseverance? The fusion with Rome doesn’t save us from any (real) sins. All those folks abolished Holy Spirit, the only possible self-unforgiving thing.
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I’m delighted that you’ve found some inspiration in Nickism! Nickism itself stands on the shoulders of giants, as does any good expression of theology. The phrase about following Jesus into any battle is taken from God’s Smuggler by John and Elizabeth Sherrill and Dutch missionary Andrew van der Bijl (or “Brother Andrew” then, as he had to keep his name secret because his mission-field was behind the iron curtain during the Cold War).
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Do we have to worry about New-Nickism?
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That.
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“The fruit of the Spirit [the result of His presence within us] is love [unselfish concern for others], joy, [inner] peace, patience [not the ability to wait, but how we act while waiting], kindness, goodness, faithfulness” (Galatians 5:22 AMP).
If these things are missing from a ministry or a movement, you can rest assured that it is not of God. “Love and kindness” are not characteristics of the NeoCal ministers and ministries we have addressed on TWW. “Be on your guard against false religious teachers, who come to you dressed up as sheep but are really greedy wolves. You can tell them by their fruit” (Matthew 7:15-20). New Calvinism is bearing the wrong fruit; the movement is not of God.
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Bridget on Sat Dec 25, 2021 at 09:31 PM said:
Ken F (aka Tweed)
“They cannot imagine relationships apart from hierarchy and subordination.”
+++++++++++++++++
“5 Reasons ‘Friend’ Means ‘Obedient Subordinate’”
…how many parts hysterical and how many parts revolting?
guess It’s Christmastime in T. G. C. (cue Louis Armstrong)
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Christianity has controlled the conversation for so long that it doesn’t take the challenge of its apostates any better than other religions do.
I remember Julia Sweeney relating in her show “letting go of God” how her mother didn’t have an issue with her not believing in God, as long as she didn’t become an “atheist”.
A brief on line search yielded Juan Mendez from Arizona as the only openly atheist senator in the USA.
I don’t think we have to worry “fundamentalist atheists” seizing power anytime soon.
Most probably cower in the pews, faking it for fear of losing family, friends and their entire social network.
I wish those folks peace.
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Ken F (aka Tweed),
No; those are misunderstandings of Nickism.
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Good comment, and you’re very right, I’ve seen it happening in non-Christian environments too. It seems to be a society wide malaise.
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Pseudo just isn’t authentic enough any more.
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I don’t understand…
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Ken F (aka Tweed),
Sorry, Ken; I should’ve been a bit clearer there. There aren’t any new forms of Nickism; anything that purports to critique, correct or otherwise bring any form of discredit on Nickism is, by definition, a misunderstanding of Nickism.
In some ways, Nickism is a perfected form of Calvinismism. Calvinismism, AWWBA, is basically defended by saying that anyone who points out the contradictions inherent in it has “misunderstood Calvinismism”. Nickism circumvents this by not having any contradictions, which it achieves by embracing paradox and uncertainty and not actually making any claims. Some, of course, would say that Nickism doesn’t actually have any doctrines, but this is a misunderstanding of Nickism etc etc.
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It sounds somewhat like Muffism.
Similar ideas (but not identical) have long been known to develop independently across geography and culture.
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I was hoping my inability to understand would reflect a deep and sublime understanding of Nickism. But if I understand correctly, it appears I don’t misunderstand it enough, because the only way to truly understand it is to completely misunderstand it. Unless I misunderstood you incorrectly…
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Samuel Conner,
It’s fine now, although it might take a while to load the doc. My suggestion: download it for offline reading.
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:sigh:
This is why *church councils* and actual congregational votes are a MUST.
I don’t believe in dictatorship and authoritarianism, especially since I’ve run afoul of it myself in a “church.” (Actually, in many “churches,” all strongly influenced by and/or caught up in the discipleship movement that began during the early 1970s.)
I hate the word “elders” these days. And a big problem for congregants is that they’re so used to authoritarian rule that they don’t see that they can simply *take it away* from the flimflam men who claim to be “leaders.”
This is, for ne, deja vu all over again (to quote Yogi Berra) and i can’t stand to think about it anymore. Since it’s a question of retraumatizing myself in so doing.
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Is “Discipleship Movement” related to the Shepherding Movement (AKA the control freak’s wet dream)?
That End of the World/Shepherding Cult that almost assimilated me in the mid-Seventies was heavily into “Discipleship”. They said you knew when you had become fully Discipled when you experience what cult watch/deprogramming groups call “snapping”. i.e. the moment when you finally break in Room 101, after which there is only “He Loved Big Brother”.
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Same thing. It went by both names.