Why I Would Never Be a Member of Bethlehem Baptist Church: Kenny Stokes and Church Leadership Under Pressure

partial solar eclipse as the Sun peeks behind the United States Capitol Building and from the Delaware Breakwater Lighthouse, on June 10, 2021. NASA

“Goodness is about character – integrity, honesty, kindness, generosity, moral courage, and the like. More than anything else, it is about how we treat other people.” Dennis Prager


Christmas week! This is a busy one for me. My family is coming for the holidays. My son has been exposed to Covid from a close friend who was vaccinated. My mother is still in rehab and I am breaking her out any day. My dishwasher sprang a leak all over our floor and will need a major part (under warranty) but the part is not readily available due to “supply chain issues. So, no dishwasher for the holiday.

I have my new pug, Holly Berry, who is a sweet dog but very underweight. The first full day here, she crawled up my chest to give me a slurpy lick. She is keeping me focused on the meaning of Christmas. Just like Holly, we all like sheep have gone astray. Our Savior reached out and saved us as well.

Schedule for the week…Two short posts with interesting information on Monday and Wednesday. A repeat post on my reflection on Christmas on Friday. E church will be posted on Sunday.

I love you all and am humbled you would take your precious time to comment here. Merry Christmas!


I plan several posts around this topic so hang in there.

John Piper is still the “man” at Bethlehem College and Seminary

Let’s get this dealt with upfront. I know there are some who claim that John Piper really has nothing to do with Bethlehem Baptist Church since he retired from the pastorate. However, he still lingers on as founder and teacher of desiringGod.org and chancellor of Bethlehem College & Seminary.

John Piper is founder and teacher of desiringGod.org and chancellor of Bethlehem College & Seminary. For over 30 years, he served as senior pastor at Bethlehem Baptist Church, Minneapolis, Minnesota

It is my understanding that some of the school is housed in the church. His DNA is all over this church, college, seminary, and website. To say otherwise is silly. I have written post after post regarding Piper’s seemingly bizarre prognostication. Here are a few.

There’s more but I’ve had enough and I suspect that you have as well.

The ongoing mess at Bethlehem Church

There is an ongoing mess at Bethlehem Church and Seminary. I’ve written one post regarding the problems. The Day God Didn’t Kiss Bethlehem Baptist Church. 4 Pastors Have Resigned, Including the Lead Pastor, and There’s Even More. However, more and more information is becoming available.

Did Julie Roys “threaten” Bethlehem Church’s new big cheese, Kenny Stokes.

Yes, but not in the way Kenny means.

Julie Roys wrote about it. Bethlehem Baptist Church Pastor Accuses The Roys Report of ‘Threatening’ Him: Our Response As most readers know, I have a rule. Play in the public eye; pay in the public eye. John Piper and the church burst onto the public scene. Piper brags about the number of his published books and his website which he wants as many people as possible to access. I don’t care what he did with his money. I do care that he has influenced an entire generation of authority-driven young men who seem to have little use for women in their ministries. Piper and lower-level pastors loved the attention of the masses so long as it was praising them. They don’t get to ignore the critique which is warranted under the circumstances.

Kenny Stokes, who is the next big cheese at Bethlehem Church, got all bent out of shape because Julie Roys contacted him, saying she was writing a story about all of the goings-on at the church. Roys committed the ultimate sin in Piper’s eyes. I have no doubt that Kenny Stokes felt his authority was being threatened.

Under pressure for elders’ alleged abuse of power, Bethlehem Baptist Church (BBC) elder and recently-appointed Pastor for Preaching and Vision Downtown Kenny Stokes accused The Roys Report of “threatening” him.

Now we get to see how the boys respond when a strong woman presses them for an answer. You can hear a recording on her site. He said:

And she contacted me and others and threatened me—you know, ‘Talk to me, or I’m going to say you’re a flip flopper.’ And I decided right there. I’m not talking to her. And I mentioned it to one of the reputable reporters. And she said, ‘She gives us a bad name.’

 So, we’ve not talked to—so, you’re not going to get a balanced perspective from Julie Roys. You’re going to get what Bryan (Pickering) thinks. That’s what you’re going to get.

You will get to know another authority-driven male in this story, Andy Naselli, a BBC elder, and Bethlehem College and Seminary professor. Naselli has been accused of having an abusive personality with the students at the seminary. Why am I not surprised by this? No one, but no one, disagrees with the big cheeses who have the blessings, of Pope Piper himself. I will be discussing this in the next post.

So, Roys investigated these charges. Was she rude, tearing the authority away from these gospelly, thin-skinned men? Here is what she said she sent to Stokes.

I’m working on an article concerning recent events at BBC. I would like to speak with you about those. Specifically, it’s my understanding that you called for an internal investigation into allegations concerning Andy Naselli at a March 11 meeting with Downtown elders. However, you later voted to dismiss the allegations without an investigation. Would you be willing to explain that apparent about-face to me?

Stokes did not respond to two emails. However, when Roys heard about the “threatening” charges, Stokes appears horribly upset and starts using words like “defamatory” which means that if he could sue her. He would but he can’t because she wasn’t. So he attacks her personally, at least in my eye.

In an email the same day, Stokes apologized for his “flippancy” and “inaccuracy” when he alleged I had called him a “flip-flopper”—a term I never used. But he appeared to double-down on his accusation that I had threatened him (Stokes’ full email and our entire thread is published at the end of this article.):

You said that I had done an ‘apparent about face’, first calling for ‘an internal investigation’ and then voting to ‘dismiss the allegations without an investigation.’ At that time, with the threat of your publication pending, and your inaccurate presentation of my own thoughts and intentions and actions as ‘an about face’, I felt that you were putting pressure on me to talk to you. Given that pressure, and your defamatory portrayal, I felt I had no reason to trust you to accurately portray my perspective. To the contrary, we did speak to the reporters from CT, World and our own local StarTribune in part because they approached us without pressure and without a predetermined narrative.

Here is part of that note which Julie posted in its entirety. I want you to pay close attention to his sign-off.

For the glory of Christ and the joy of all peoples.

Yep, Kenny, as one of the “all peoples,” I got no joy from his response.

Julie Roys denies threatening Stokes. My feeling is that the only thing that got threatened is Stokes’ feeling of authority. Bless his heart.

Stokes claimed that Roys has no accountability.

We decided we would talk to reputable reporters who have, who are at organizations that have editorial boards, people who are accountable. And um, we did not see Julie Roys as that.

Julie took that complaint seriously and described the accountability that she has with her editorial board. However, I believe that Stokes played her. He had absolutely no intention of replying to her and used this opportunity to denigrate an uppity woman. Do I need to write about all the ministries that had “accountability” and garbage happened anyway? Oooh- I’ve got a good one involving Bethlehem Baptist Church. Piper and friends were (and are?) quite supportive of CJ Mahaney who supposedly had “accountability.”

So here’s the question open for debate. Does accountability ensure godly behavior? Full disclosure: TWW does not have an editorial or accountability board. Does being “in the public eye” function as a means of accountability?

Kenny Stokes, who brings me no joy, is one reason why I will ever attend Bethlehem Baptist Church

Comments

Why I Would Never Be a Member of Bethlehem Baptist Church: Kenny Stokes and Church Leadership Under Pressure — 115 Comments


  1. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    “Does accountability ensure godly behavior?”

    Not when it’s just a bunch of dude-bros circling the wagons for the unlawful behavior of their BFFs.


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    In some ways, it is kind of comical… Why does Kenny Stokes even “get all worked up”??
    So talk to Julie Roys or don’t talk to her…. and let it go…. The very fact that he is getting worked tells you a whole lot…


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    In some ways, it is kind of comical… Why does Kenny Stokes even “get all worked up”??
    So talk to Julie Roys or don’t talk to her…. and let it go…. The very fact that he is getting worked tells you a whole lot…

    Check your email address. You have a “y” where there should be a “u”. GBTC


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    “about how we treat other people.” -Dennis Prager

    How Natalie (years ago) was treated was enough to clearly be Done with everything DG, JP, & BBC (years ago). The pastors who subsequently jumped into the toxic soup post-Natalie, and then later resigned from experiencing abuse themselves, boohoo, … what were they thinking in the first place?

    https://www.flyingfreenow.com/bethlehem-baptist-church-is-not-a-safe-church-for-women-in-emotionally-abusive-relationships/


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    (from the post, this:
    “Women shouldn’t be muscular because it leads to fast sex”
    “Women should be careful in giving road directions to a man so as not to take away his authority.”

    This is cult-stuff loaded with the kind of misogyny that points to an insecure male author who must put women down in order to build himself up as a ‘man’

    Good grief! And this man has a FOLLOWING???


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    “I have my new pug, Holly Berry, who is a sweet dog but very underweight. The first full day here, she crawled up my chest to give me a slurpy lick. She is keeping me focused on the meaning of Christmas. Just like Holly, we all like sheep have gone astray. Our Savior reached out and saved us as well.”

    I love this!
    Our fur babies give so much love!
    Merry Christmas, Dee.

    P.S.
    Forget the warranty. Rent a WORKING dishwasher for the holidays. Enough already!


  7. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Ava Aaronson,

    Natalie went on Julie’s podcast in September. What stuck out most to me was that Julie suggested a trauma/abuse expert train the staff at the church, but Natalie didn’t think they would listen if it were a woman.

    That’s when the lightbulb went on in my head and I thought, “Oh, that’s what hyper-complementarian means, and that’s why it could very easily be an unsafe church for women to be at (or men).”


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    marco,

    The reply isn’t working.

    Anyway, SNAP – Natalie was right. They don’t listen to women. Men talk, women listen. Very weird. The women telling the other disciples that Jesus had risen? The news would fall on deaf ears among BBC, DG, et al. LOL. If Jesus had not subsequently appeared to the guys in the group, all complementarian men would still be 2,000 years behind.


  9. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    marco,

    I have long known that fundagelical churches, reformed or non, are toxic environments for women.
    My wife and I left that whole corrosive scene twenty five years ago and haven’t looked back.


  10. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Maybe John Piper should move to Florida and start collecting seashells so his church can sort out these problems, free from his influence.


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    christiane:
    Forget the warranty.Rent a WORKING dishwasher for the holidays.Enough already!

    Sounds like a great time to break out the paper plates and tinfoil roasting pans.

    Good luck with your son’s exposure and your mom’s jailbreak, Dee, and Merry Christmas!


  12. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    From the post- “I do care that he has influenced an entire generation of authority-driven young men who seem to have little use for women in their ministries.”

    I don’t think this can be overstated.

    My husband went to a seminary (not Bethlehem) heavily influenced by Piper. In spite of having a mother who was a physician in a time when women were still uncommon in the field, in spite of having primarily women youth leaders in church during high school, in spite of serving alongside women in student leadership positions in InterVarsity… he came out of seminary a complementarian (granted, on the softer side).

    I am an unabashed egalitarian, and have been since before we married. It’s a long story, but there were times when the topic came up where he acted as though he’d been brainwashed in terms of his uncharacteristically abrupt shut-down of conversation when the topic came up. It’s taken a while, but between my (mostly) gentle prodding and his own observations of how leaders of various complementarian churches have made donkeys of themselves with how they treat specific women (his own wife included) and/or women’s ministries… and he now openly acknowledges he’d rather have a woman of good character as a pastor than a man of little.

    Baby steps.

    Anyway, I’ve known conservative Christian who rail against secular indoctrination in public schools. But I think certain seminaries are not above using it, themselves.


  13. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    I hope JP lives long enough (and still has his wits about him) that we can hear his explanation of what roles are appropriate to cross-gender human chimeras — children born from the fusion of two zygotes or early embryos of different genders in which the visible anatomy is of one gender but the central nervous system is genetically of the other gender — once the reality of this phenomenon is better understood and its frequency quantified.

    I think this would be useful for future historians of this episode of US church history.


  14. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Ava Aaronson: The women telling the other disciples that Jesus had risen? The news would fall on deaf ears among BBC, DG, et al. LOL.

    NT Wright sees this as strong evidence that the NT resurrection narratives are very ancient and authentic, not later productions. No-one writing for that time and wanting the story to be believed would have crafted a story in which the first witnesses to Jesus’ resurrection were … female. NTW thinks that this was probably something of an embarrassment and an apologetical problem for the authors of the Gospels, but that the stories were so important and so precious that they preserved them unedited in their compositions.

    Given that JP and fellow-travellers embrace strong understandings of Sovereignty (I’m not criticizing in noting this, just pointing it out), one wonders what their explanation would be of the Divine decree to entrust the important task of bearing the first witness of Jesus’ resurrection to … females.


  15. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    What I get out of the main story of the OP is that the subject appears to feel “threatened” by the prospect of reporting on certain things associated with his time at BBC. That would appear to be clarifying, and one might even interpret it to be a hint of a functional conscience, which under other circumstances one might applaud in a church leader.

    regarding the question that closes the OP, “accountability” is no better or more effective or more reliable a means of maintaining virtue than the character of the people to whom one is accountable.

    In some organizations, to repurpose a joke about ancient cosmologies, it may be narcissists or sociopaths “all the way down”.

    Public shame, OTOH, is a powerful restraint on visibly bad behavior. Consequences can serve as a substitute “external conscience” in instances where the internal version is not functioning at 100%.


  16. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    christiane: Rent a WORKING dishwasher for the holidays.

    Oooh, I have a son who’s out of work!


  17. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    “Does accountability ensure godly behavior?”

    Short answer: no. There is no biblical argument for Christians being accountable to one another. Accountability is an effective tool for a different problem.


  18. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    So Piper, and others of his ilk, begs the question of why anyone gives their power to persons who espouse such “stuff”? The answer: it is easier to find someone to believe in rather than do the difficult work of building our own belief system.


  19. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    “the threat of your publication” “inaccurate presentation… as an about face”

    Touchy. But I suppose the leaders of this organization have ample precedent for viewing competent females doing their jobs as a threat.

    And all this stuff about “she’s not even a real reporter, a REAL reporter told me so!” sounds very schoolyard nyah-nyah to me.


  20. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lather, rinse, repeat.

    If we obey the Bible and do not have these human males as “in authority” this problem goes away.

    As to the dishwasher: disposables really do save so much effort, whether dishes, plates, cutlery, aluminum pans, or cups. For the rest, I do hear good things about that certain dishwasher liquid that you spray on as a foam, then let sit a few minutes and wipe and rinse. And for any tough stuff, grap a dryer sheet to scrub with. Melts the stuff right off. Although all that said, for us, with low vax rates and omicron spreading rapidly, we are skipping the holiday get together again.

    Samuel Conner–but to accept chimerism you have to accept science. Young earthers never will, lol.


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    Wild Honey,

    Telling. Thx for sharing.

    Being heroic or superior (via born gender) w/a guru teacher (academic authority) under the auspices of Christian (God ordained this) … what a opportunity, sent from Heaven, no less, and packaged by accredited Higher Ed.

    You didn’t settle for being the princess.


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    Luckyforward: it is easier to find someone to believe in rather than do the difficult work of building our own belief system.

    Easier to settle for an Earthly Middleman than to build over time a personal relationship with the living God, a relationship “in spirit and in truth,” Jesus said.


  23. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    “Kenny Stokes, who brings me no joy, is one reason why I will ever attend Bethlehem Baptist Church” (Dee)

    “Behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all people” (Luke 2:10-11)

    New Calvinism is not good news of great joy for ALL people. Its ministers would not bring you joy.


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    Luckyforward,

    Very true.
    I watched this play out in the Calvary Chapel cult (Southern Calif.)


  25. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Jeffrey Chalmers: Why does Kenny Stokes even “get all worked up”??

    New Calvinism is getting increasingly criticized for its cultish belief and practice. Its leaders are trying to hold on with an iron grip as the movement slips into obscurity.


  26. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Anyone dickering about accountability AND has NDAs should sit down and be quiet.

    Transparency goes a long way with regard to accountability.


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    Luckyforward: why anyone gives their power to persons who espouse such “stuff”?

    Like a complete diet on processed and fast food:

    Quick
    Lazy
    Cheap (for the soul, not the wallet)
    Everyone does it
    Popular
    Bland
    Unchallenging
    Crowd-pleasing
    Lots of company
    Convenient
    Little to no effort
    Superficial
    Bling
    Flashy
    Well-marketed
    False promises
    Pleasing to the eyes and ears
    Image
    Manly, womanly
    Cool
    Don’t rock the boat.

    All the “stuff” Jesus was not.


  28. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Jeffrey Chalmers: Why does Kenny Stokes even “get all worked up”??

    Because truth can stand on its own but lies require defenders. People get worked up like that when they are not on the side of truth.


  29. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Y’all, this is completely off-topic, but I assume y’all have heard the news about Beth Moore becoming Anglican? I posted about it on FB, and all Hell broke loose in the comments, LOL. I had no idea Beth was such a lightning rod!

    This past Sunday, she had the temerity to serve as a Lay Reader and Lay Eucharistic Minister, and the entire Religious Internet exploded. To top it off, her new parish was Doxxed by the charitable Christians at ReformationCharlotte, who apparently can’t tell the difference between acolyte robes and “priestly garb.” What a mess!

    I once sat through a Beth Moore Bible Study series at my nextdoor neighbor’s house. It was pablum, but mostly innocuous, IMHO. Why do people hate her so much?

    My own take, as a convinced Catholic: She has taken a huge step in the right direction. Not all the way there yet, but definitely heading in a positive direction. But even my fellow Catholics were biting my head off for saying this. And non-ACNA Anglicans — members of other Anglican Continuum groups — were just as harsh. If not more so.

    (I guess I shouldn’t mention to them that I’m a Lay Reader at my parish. My Catholic RadTrad FB friends would never let me hear the end of it.)

    Very weird. I confess that I still know little about Beth Moore, despite having sat through that one Bible Study series. But she must be one colorful lady if she elicits such strong reactions!

    BTW she looked gorgeous in her “priestly garb.” Does that woman ever age?

    –CGC, deeming it safe to sneak back here since we’re no longer talking about politics or Cootie Jabs 🙂


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    Speaking of people whose surname is Stokes…

    ION: Cricket

    Despite talismanic all-rounder Ben Stokes being fit for the The Ashes tour, England’s performances have been disastrous so far. The only surprise is that we have yet to lose by an innings (though had Australialand enforced the follow-on in the Second Test, we would have done).

    What tends to happen in England tours of Australia, is happening here: the wheels have fallen off for England and, realistically, only the weather can prevent a series whitewash.

    IHTIH


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    Dee

    I haven’t read through the comments yet, so someone might have already commented on the following typo…

    From the OP: Kenny Stokes, who brings me no joy, is one reason why I will ever attend Bethlehem Baptist Church.

    I’m guessing you intended to type the word “never”, not the word “ever”. 🙂


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    Cynthia W.,

    LOL! That’s funny


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    Cynthia W.: christiane: Rent a WORKING dishwasher for the holidays.

    Oooh, I have a son who’s out of work!

    🙂

    (And I’m not laughing because your son is out of work.)


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    linda: And for any tough stuff, grap a dryer sheet to scrub with. Melts the stuff right off.

    Linda

    I’m assuming you are referring to the kinds of dryer sheets that are tossed into the dryer with clothing when you’re drying the clothing? And if so, wouldn’t the dryer sheets damage the clothing? (I’m just curious….and no offence intended….I don’t, for any number of reasons, use dryer sheets.)


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    From the OP:

    [Dee’s] Christmas week! This is a busy one for me. My family is coming for the holidays. My son has been exposed to Covid from a close friend who was vaccinated. My mother is still in rehab and I am breaking her out any day. My dishwasher sprang a leak all over our floor and will need a major part (under warranty) but the part is not readily available due to “supply chain issues. So, no dishwasher for the holiday.

    Merry Christmas and “Merry Christmas”….and I hope the “Merry Christmas” becomes a Merry Christmas (including the hope your son’s exposure to Covid doesn’t lead to him actually getting Covid).


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    researcher–lol we don’t use those dryer sheets when we dry clothes as I am allergic to all fabric softeners. BUT I learned from a gal at church to keep some around anyway. When you have a pot, pan, casserole dish, etc that has stuff stuck or burned on and hard to clean, just wad up one of those dryer sheets (I glove up), wet it, and scrub with it. Something in it seems to make the goo come off very easily.


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    Max: New Calvinism is getting increasingly criticized for its cultish belief and practice. Its leaders are trying to hold on with an iron grip as the movement slips into obscurity.

    And they will end up Admirals in Rowboats, with a couple Goerings of self-awarded decorations pinned to their chests.


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    Catholic Gate-Crasher: Y’all, this is completely off-topic, but I assume y’all have heard the news about Beth Moore becoming Anglican? I posted about it on FB, and all Hell broke loose in the comments, LOL. I had no idea Beth was such a lightning rod!

    I didnae ken that! I’m already a Nanglican, back from when I was quite small, BTW.


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    researcher: (And I’m not laughing because your son is out of work.)

    Thank you. He was working a seasonal job that ended last week, and he graduated from college on Saturday. I’m sure he’ll be back in employment fairly soon. Meanwhile, he gets texts from his mother, “Good morning, son! I have a few tasks underway that could use your height, so come on by about 11, thanks.”


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    “My dishwasher sprang a leak all over our floor and will need a major part (under warranty) but the part is not readily available due to “supply chain issues. So, no dishwasher for the holiday.”

    It’s time for those egalitarian men in your household to rise to the occasion!


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    Catholic Gate-Crasher: Beth Moore becoming Anglican

    I wonder if there was any process to her “becoming Anglican,” or just, “Nice to have you, Beth. What would you like to do to help out?” Regardless, I wish her and the congregation a Merry Christmas and a great year ahead.

    When I was a girl attending Protestant Chapel at Navy bases, kids from different squadrons would take turns being cross-bearers and flag-bearers. (We would post the U.S. and Navy flags at the front of the church.) We wore black robes with a white surplice like Ms. Moore is, only we had to have our hair very neat: short cuts and combed for boys, buns for girls.


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    https://thewartburgwatch.com/2021/12/20/why-i-would-never-be-a-member-of-bethlehem-baptist-church-kenny-stokes-and-church-leadership-under-pressure/#comment-457131,

    This doesn’t surprise me. I’ve known plenty of friends who got burned or grew dissatisfied with mainstream evangelical churches and found rest in something more liturgical.

    I’d probably be attending an Anglican or Presbyterian church myself right now if it weren’t for my kids. We have family and friends at a nearby non-denominational church so we’re attending with them, and that’s what we need most. Family and friends support.

    Plus due to recent internal and external events the church has a lot of decisions to make about direction and purpose. I can at least see where they land.


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    Samuel Conner: I hope JP lives long enough (and still has his wits about him) that we can hear his explanation of what roles are appropriate to cross-gender human chimeras — children born from the fusion of two zygotes or early embryos of different genders in which the visible anatomy is of one gender but the central nervous system is genetically of the other gender — once the reality of this phenomenon is better understood and its frequency quantified.

    This already happens. It’s called intersex and can be genetic or hormonal. There’s been issues already with doctors and parents deciding what sex a baby should be *made* into (by surgery) based on external organs. Some intersex advocates are flatly against this surgery on very young children because it is unclear how genetics and/or hormones will play out as the child enters puberty. Basically, leave it up to the kid.

    Chimeras are another thing entirely. I know of a legal case where a woman very nearly had custody of her children removed because she wasn’t their genetic mother. Basically, her genetic makeup didn’t match that of her kids, but her *mother’s* genetic makeup indicated she was the maternal grandmother of the kids. Further research found that she (this is Lydia Fairchild, in Massachusetts, in the ’00s) had a second set of DNA as determined by a cervical smear. Chimeras can occur due to mergers of multiple fertilized eggs, which is likely what happened here.


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    linda:
    researcher–lol we don’t use those dryer sheets when we dry clothes as I am allergic to all fabric softeners.BUT I learned from a gal at church to keep some around anyway.When you have a pot, pan, casserole dish, etc that has stuff stuck or burned on and hard to clean, just wad up one of those dryer sheets (I glove up), wet it, and scrub with it.Something in it seems to make the goo come off very easily.

    I know this is off topic but I love any kind of tip that makes cleaning easier… a paste of baking powder and hydrogen peroxide works wonders on baked-on grease, that tacky yellow-brown gunk. It has to sit and soak for a while, but just in case you don’t have dryer sheets hanging around 🙂


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    marco: This doesn’t surprise me. I’ve known plenty of friends who got burned or grew dissatisfied with mainstream evangelical churches and found rest in something more liturgical

    I have found liturgical churches provide structure.
    And institutional memory well beyond the lifespan of a single individual.

    Problem with Evagnelicals is there’s no clear dividing line between “Where the Spirit Leads” and “Let It All Hang Out”. And a lot of them mistake the latter for the former.


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    Max,

    🙂


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    From what I’ve seen ‘Accountability’ is a buzz word, and has lost all meaning. But I just had an interesting discussion where I tried to explain the science behind infectious disease to a poor sucker who’d been listening to — get this — Dennis Prager. I’d love to see Prager held accountable.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy: no clear dividing line between “Where the Spirit Leads” and “Let It All Hang Out”

    Interesting that in the NT, the Holy Spirit Himself filtered out the nonsense.

    Perhaps the Gift of Discernment, still being given to the church via the Holy Spirit, FREE, is God’s filter today. I’ve seen this in action. Refreshing. Making church safe again.

    Pastors in general seem to recognize their “gifts” of pastoring & teaching & administrating (if indeed given to the church via them by the Holy Spirit?), and the gift of giving – $$$ of donors to support the pastor et al. Ah … there’s also the gift of service – getting people to do things.

    Discernment is such a wonderful gift from the HS to the church.


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    Wild Honey: hydrogen peroxide

    Not all of us bachelors have hydrogen peroxide ducky!

    linda: dryer sheet to scrub with

    I can’t be doing with actual softeners either but thanks for tip. Just “ruined” my new “soup dragon machine”.

    Catholic Gate-Crasher: safe to sneak back here since we’re no longer talking about

    exactly!

    Ava Aaronson: the gift of service – getting people to do things

    I detect your irony. The gift to not stop people doing things. To let people do things. The default now is emotional contortions and meaningless slogans because they aren’t allowed to even be human beings any more. The fivefold R us, not the elite.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Sshh! Remember (i.e don’t remember) People’s Temple!


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    Wild Honey: Anyway, I’ve known conservative Christian who rail against secular indoctrination in public schools.

    Ah yes, secular indoctrination. Teaching children that boys and girls are equal. O, the humanity. 😉


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    Cynthia W.: I wonder if there was any process to her “becoming Anglican,” or just, “Nice to have you, Beth. What would you like to do to help out?”Regardless, I wish her and the congregation a Merry Christmas and a great year ahead.

    When I was a girl attending Protestant Chapel at Navy bases, kids from different squadrons would take turns being cross-bearers and flag-bearers.(We would post the U.S. and Navy flags at the front of the church.)We wore black robes with a white surplice like Ms. Moore is, only we had to have our hair very neat: short cuts and combed for boys, buns for girls.

    I think she was confirmed in her new church. Baptists don’t have Confirmation, from what I understand, right? So she had to be received via Confirmation.


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    Luckyforward on Tue Dec 21, 2021 at 08:34 AM said:

    “The answer: it is easier to find someone to believe in rather than do the difficult work of building our own belief system.”
    +++++++++++++++++

    I really like this thought… building our own belief system.

    it’s not like choosing to believe arbitrary nonsense, like the moon is made of cheese.

    it’s more like looking into a diamond and noticing the dazzling angles and more angles and crevasses of yet more intricate depth of inscrutable beauty and fascination.

    the idea of someone dictating to us our belief system as if it were some kind of appliance user’s guide…

    well, if i were a cardboard cutout paperdoll that someone propped up in a cardboard diorama of make-believe where truth is an assortment of other one-sided cardboard props, maybe.

    but i’m a complex being in a complex creation, as are we all. seems to me the pursuit of truth happens in proportion to independent thought.


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    Wild Honey on Tue Dec 21, 2021 at 06:50 PM said:

    “any kind of tip that makes cleaning easier”
    +++++++++++++++

    oh, i’ve got one.

    for tomato-based stains, put the item outside in the sun. in a few hours, the stain’s disappeared. gone. (the queen mutha of all household hints — or at least one of them)

    for berry or wine stains, boiling water poured on.


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    Catholic Gate-Crasher: I think she was confirmed in her new church.

    Okay, that makes sense.


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    Ava Aaronson: Discernment is such a wonderful gift from the HS to the church.

    Me thinks this one is very unevenly distributed among present-day congregations.


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    Samuel Conner,

    Obviously, there is no issue with God’s Holy Spirit distributing his spiritual gifts to the Body of Christ.

    The question is when and where the local church allows God’s Holy Spirit gifts to be active and engaged in their church community.

    A lady who had the gift of teaching was not welcome in her local church so she had a Bible study in her condo with many participants from her neighborhood. Similar with a woman who had the gift of evangelism: not welcome in her local congregation so she practiced throughout our community. Our extended family had a gentleman with the gift of discernment, highly regarded & listened to in our family but not in church. (All three are now in Heaven.)

    Historically, Gladys Aylward, George Müller, & the Casper ten Boom family all put their spiritual gifts in action without the local church.

    Some parachurch activities are evil & fake, like RZ. Others are spiritual gifts in action. Here, too, discernment is good. TWW operates outside of a church org.


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    Todd Wilhelm: I find John Piper and his band of merry men insufferable.

    What they offer is what some seek:
    – the superior right way, with a leader to follow (BTW, not Jesus)
    – men, by birth, have the power of leadership & agency (women don’t have; women serve men & their egos); men rule
    – no need to love one’s neighbor as oneself since empathy is sin
    – no need for men to listen to women, their mandate using the Bible


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    Ava Aaronson: The question is when and where the local church allows God’s Holy Spirit gifts to be active and engaged in their church community.

    The Holy Spirit has been replaced by accountability groups.


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    Ken F (aka Tweed): The Holy Spirit has been replaced by accountability groups.

    ???

    What are accountability groups? In churches?


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    Ava Aaronson: What are accountability groups? In churches?

    If you google “christian accountability groups” you will get sites like this: https://www.pastoralcareinc.com/resources/accountability-groups/
    I thought everyone knew about this. You must have been in healthy churches if this is new to you. It got a big boost with the Promise Keepers movement a few decades ago.


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    Ken F (aka Tweed): The Holy Spirit has been replaced by accountability groups.

    My interpretation is that the “small groups” focus of recent decades, that at its outset seemed like a really good idea (and might still be, if done well), is an attempt to create artificial or synthetic environments of trust that can be quickly “stood up” (and that can accommodate rapid numerical growth which would require rapid “standing up” of forms of, or attempts at, community).

    I think that “accountability” at peer level can be a really good thing, but it needs to emerge organically as a consequence of earned trust (I intuit that this is what is in view in a text such as “confess your sins one to another”). “Small group” accountability in my experience has been a kind of “ascribed trust”; one worries what may happen in cases in which the group leaders to whom trustworthiness is ascribed are not in fact worthy of it.


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    Samuel Conner: “accountability” at peer level can be a really good thing, but it needs to emerge organically as a consequence of earned trust

    Agreed. It also strikes me as a tacit admission that such groups don’t have a form of confession that helps people feel forgiven by God, accepted by their trusted friend, and fully prepared to repent.

    And that’s the best case. Some churches collect blackmail material on members. Friendships change. An accountability partner might hold a lot of power over someone who, say, had a brief affair, ended it, and decided not to tell their spouse.


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    elastigirl,

    Elastigirl, this is such a beautifully stated truth! Thank you!


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    christiane: https://churchleaders.com/news/413155-beth-moore-serving-eucharist-at-her-new-anglican-church-causes-twitter-meltdown.html/2

    Ms. Moore may be done with SBC, but they are not done with her … Lifeway is still making money off of her.

    https://www.lifeway.com/en/searchpage.html?prod.dotcom.products%5Bquery%5D=beth%20moore%20bible%20studies


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    Cynthia W.: I wonder if there was any process to her “becoming Anglican,” or just, “Nice to have you, Beth. What would you like to do to help out?”

    I sincerely hope there was some process of confirmation or catechism before being fully accepted into the ACNA, otherwise it will give the appearance that her “celebrity” status allowed her to fast-track into the Anglican communion. This is especially relevant given that some of her teachings are not in alignment with the 39 Articles and the BCO.

    Would any unknown communicant go from attending to assisting in the eucharist in such a short amount of time?

    Otherwise, more power to her.


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    Burwell Stark,

    FWIW, I have been looking into the process of transferring ordination credentials into the REC/ACNA and the LMS, which is why I wrote the above about confirmation/catechism.


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    Michael in UK: Not all of us bachelors have hydrogen peroxide ducky!

    Hydrogen peroxide is one of the best all-round-home-anti-bacterial remedies there is.
    As a mouthwash for after flossing, it can’t be beat. Its micro-bubbling-cleaning- action gets into the nooks and crannies that the high priced mouth washes do not.
    It (when used on an everyday basis) cured my gingivitis problems.


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    Ava Aaronson: What are accountability groups? In churches?

    As Ken F noted, the Promise Keepers movement was big on men belonging to accountability groups. In my area, small groups of PK followers met weekly to hold each other accountable in their faith, confessing their sins to each other, pledging to live better the next week … many went right back out to sin again, then returned the next week to sling snot and repent before the brethren over and over. The local PK leader spoke before a large crowd in a chapel service at a SBC college to share the benefits of being associated with PK. His wife joined him on stage, sharing how PK had changed their lives and saved their marriage. Within a year, they divorced after he had an affair. It’s better to be accountable to the Father, Son & Holy Ghost than a bunch of men who can’t walk straight.

    The Promise Keepers movement eventually vaporized. “If this plan or undertaking originates with men, it will fade away and come to nothing” (Acts 5:38-39).


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    Ken F (aka Tweed): The Holy Spirit has been replaced by accountability groups.

    Accountability groups, small groups, LifeGroups etc. are often used by church leaders to keep an eye out for dissenters. New Calvinism wants every church member to be a part of a weekly group. Under the guise of Bible Study, hand-picked leaders report back to the lead pastor about those who question sermons, belief and practice. This could lead to having to make a trip to the pastor’s office for discipline and/or eventual shunning/excommunication. Nah, I’ll just meet with my wife to study the Bible … I trust her.


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    Burwell Stark: I sincerely hope there was some process of confirmation or catechism before being fully accepted into the ACNA, otherwise it will give the appearance that her “celebrity” status allowed her to fast-track into the Anglican communion. This is especially relevant given that some of her teachings are not in alignment with the 39 Articles and the BCO.

    Would any unknown communicant go from attending to assisting in the eucharist in such a short amount of time?

    Good observations. I hope you’ll forgive my attempt to add some thoughts, even though my knowledge is limited.

    I don’t know her membership status, but Beth Moore has had time to join another church, if she wanted to. New member classes don’t usually take very many weeks. Churches often do ask new members how they would like to serve.

    One article said that Beth Moore served as lector, meaning that she read a lesson during a service. Perhaps that parish allows non-members to put on an alb and read to the congregation. That does not strike me as momentous. At my wedding, one of our friends read a lesson. At funerals, family members of the deceased often read from Scripture.

    I also don’t know what kind of training goes on in ACNA. Typically, though, it does not take very long to teach someone how to walk up to a lectern, find the lesson, and read it aloud. In most churches I have attended, members are trusted to do this. We all share the same Bible.

    ACNA (Anglican Church in North America) is not part of the worldwide Anglican Communion. Many ACNA congregations in the US broke away from the Episcopal Church, which remains in the Anglican Communion. I don’t know how ACNA views the 39 Articles, and I’m not sure what the BCO is.

    Nobody here wants Beth Moore to be anybody’s tool or trophy. Although I have never appreciated her writings, I hope she is just moving ahead in her life, making her own decisions.


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    Samuel Conner: I think that “accountability” at peer level can be a really good thing, but it needs to emerge organically as a consequence of earned trust (I intuit that this is what is in view in a text such as “confess your sins one to another”).

    Amen! I personally have benefited from real-deal “accountability” relationships with other believers.


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    Max: confessing their sins to each other, pledging to live better the next week …

    And these guys are the same ones who bad-mouth Father Doyle for hearing confessions at St. Matthew’s on Saturdays?


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    Hi, Friend (for some reason the Reply option’s not working)…

    From what I understand, Beth has been attending St Timothy’s since this past February. You are right…that is more than enough time to go through catechesis and confirmation.

    LOL, my FB post simply *announcing* this development — with an added “Good for her” — is now up to 83 comments, mostly bashing her. Many of the comments are from people I’ve never heard of in all my born days, even though my FB setting is on Friends, not Public. Go figure!


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    Samuel Conner: I think that “accountability” at peer level can be a really good thing, but it needs to emerge organically as a consequence of earned trust

    One of the problems with the word accountability is it does not mean what Christians seem to think it means. Here is how it is defined by Wikipedia:

    A is accountable to B when A is obliged to inform B about A’s (past or future) actions and decisions, to justify them, and to suffer punishment in the case of eventual misconduct. Accountability cannot exist without proper accounting practices; in other words, an absence of accounting means an absence of accountability.

    Here are synonyms for “hold acountable”:

    allege, arraign, arrest, attack, blame, brand, charge, cite, complain, denounce, implicate, indict, name, prosecute, sue, summon, apprehend, attribute, betray, censure, criminate, finger, frame, impeach, impute, incriminate, inculpate, libel, litigate, recriminate, slander, slur, tax, blow the whistle, bring charges, file claim, hang something on, lay at door, let have it, lodge complaint, pin on, point finger at, serve summons

    I think Christians normally mean different words, such as encourage, exhort, reprove, etc.

    Accountability is easy because it does not require relationships. It ends up being an exercise in sin-sniffing and shame.


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    Max: Accountability groups, small groups, LifeGroups etc. are often used by church leaders to keep an eye out for dissenters.

    And to stifle our growth in wisdom, discernment, and maturity. Accountability is useless, and probably harmful, for spiritual growth in these areas. It cannot produce godliness.


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    Ken F (aka Tweed): stifle our growth in wisdom, discernment, and maturity. Accountability is useless, and probably harmful, for spiritual growth in these areas. It cannot produce godliness

    If your faith revolves only around the spiritual level of the small group (or church) you are in, you may never rise beyond that altitude. Wisdom, discernment and maturity requires you to pray, read the Word, and seek God yourself.


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    Ken F (aka Tweed),

    The communist party in various countries does this to a T.

    Mothership (central committee) ripples on down the hierarchy all the way to the local cadre. Yes, it is absolutely all about control & surveillance & snitching.

    Nothing mutual about it. Control flows down. Reporting flows up. Each in one direction only.

    LOL – the church does this? Maybe that’s why in the last federal admin in this country, there was such a control-happy country influencing a democracy & the church pretty much jumped on board right in the middle of it. Authoritarianism. Hmmm … so churches really want this? We can see how this works out elsewhere. One would think it best to run the other direction … away.


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    Burwell Stark: Would any unknown communicant go from attending to assisting in the eucharist in such a short amount of time?

    I honestly don’t remember how much time has passed since Ms. Moore stated she was no longer a SBC member. She might even have been in the process of joining another denomination before she made the announcement.

    In the Catholic Church, she would have gone through an RCIA (Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults) program to receive the Eucharist and Confirmation. After that, she could have roles in the liturgy after whatever specific training her parish called for.


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    Friend: Nobody here wants Beth Moore to be anybody’s tool or trophy.

    Well said.


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    Cynthia W.,

    Thank you, Cynthia. I agree: we don’t know (and don’t really need to know) the timeline of her departure from the SBC and her migration to the ACNA. We don’t even know if this is her final stop or just the next step. I wish her well on her journey.

    My comments were birthed out of my own investigation into the transfer of licensure/ ordination from the SBC to either the REC/ACNA or the LMS. That process is a little different and more involved than just leaving one denomination and joining another (as it should be).

    In terms of her future ministry, I know the ACNA is not against women’s ordination, so perhaps she is moving in that direction. Time will tell.


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    Catholic Gate-Crasher: Many of the comments are from people I’ve never heard of in all my born days, even though my FB setting is on Friends, not Public. Go figure!

    My sympathies. The reaction to Beth Moore’s new church membership feels like orchestrated hysteria to me. The message seems to be that the menfolk allowed her to accrue power over the womenfolk, and so now everybody has to pile on and disgrace her and silence anyone who previously admitted enjoying her books.

    (I won’t bother mentioning that men are treated differently when they blot the family escutcheon. There, I didn’t mention it.)

    I’m glad you are sticking up for her. Thanks also for your further information. When I searched a couple of days ago, the websites that came up looked super dodgy, so I didn’t dare click.


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    elastigirl: well, if i were a cardboard cutout paperdoll that someone propped up in a cardboard diorama of make-believe where truth is an assortment of other one-sided cardboard props, maybe

    Abolishing the anthropic principle (knowledge is meant to be known by knowing by knowers) in the alleged interest of “objective reality” they are all stifled by make believe. They are mere figments of the wizened imagination of Dear Leader.

    Etienne Gilson and Warren Young urge methodical not naive realism.

    We are the jeweller with his monocle and tweezers admiring the universe’s facets. We are the thousand different eyes of the Fly On The Wall (you can tell I’m getting a buzz): complementarity!

    Saint John Henry Newman (basing himself on other decent 19 th century logicians) urged us to exercise our own degrees of inference in all matters.

    Thank you for your works of intellectual mercy.


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    Burwell Stark: That process is a little different and more involved than just leaving one denomination and joining another (as it should be).

    Definitely. An additional complication is that some denominations appear to have ordained men in just about every role in the church other than baby-minder, while others have very few clergy and many lay employees or volunteers.


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    Burwell Stark,

    Leaving should never be complicated.

    If a church wants to keep a member on the rolls for awhile, that’s fine. But they should never stand in someone’s way, chase them, discipline them, or engage in a campaign of I’M SHOCKED! SHOCKED, I TELL YOU! … as seems to be the case here.


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    Max: Ken F (aka Tweed): The Holy Spirit has been replaced by accountability groups.

    Accountability groups, small groups, LifeGroups etc. are often used by church leaders to keep an eye out for dissenters. New Calvinism wants every church member to be a part of a weekly group. Under the guise of Bible Study, hand-picked leaders report back to the lead pastor about those who question sermons, belief and practice. This could lead to having to make a trip to the pastor’s office for discipline and/or eventual shunning/excommunication. Nah, I’ll just meet with my wife to study the Bible … I trust her.

    wow, what a scam to exert control over people through manipulation!

    Would it not be more in keeping with sacred Scripture to examine one’s own conscience using the teachings of Christ as a guide and then, when you get ‘pings’ of guilt for doing something wrong or failing to do what is right, then you can ask God for forgiveness? All that man-made scheming to manipulate and control people doesn’t fit into the seriousness of our having to make ‘choices’ and answer to God for those choices;
    but this presumes that a person is not in a cult that believes in double-predestination where even ‘prayer’ no longer is effective before God . . .


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    Cynthia W.: An additional complication is that some denominations appear to have ordained men in just about every role in the church other than baby-minder, while others have very few clergy and many lay employees or volunteers.

    My own church (RCC, the original Western-rite Liturgical Church) only ordains unmarried men (except for Permanent Deacons, who may be ordained if married but cannot marry after ordainment).

    Our actual clergy is not that large in number, and can vary from three priests and a deacon in my regular church (a sizable urban parish) to one circuit-riding priest for five or six churches (in the Owens Valley, in the high desert north and south ow Ownes (Dry) Lake with several small scattered towns).

    Though the (male) priest is at the top, most of the administrative posts immediately below him (committee chairs, parish council, RCIA/catechism, various auxiliaries, organizations, and ministries) are headed by women and women comprise a lot of their membership. For a church with an all-male clergy, we delegate a LOT of authority to women – most of the non-liturgical day-by-day roles that keep the parish running.


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    Todd Wilhelm: I find John Piper and his band of merry men insufferable.

    So do I.
    They worship a different god than the one I know.


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    Michael in UK on Wed Dec 22, 2021 at 07:30 PM said:

    “Etienne Gilson and Warren Young urge methodical not naive realism.”
    ++++++++++++++++

    so…..scrutiny is cool, then.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy: For a church with an all-male clergy, we delegate a LOT of authority to women – most of the non-liturgical day-by-day roles that keep the parish running.

    Yes, indeed. My parish has one priest, two deacons (both in their 70s), and about ten full- or part-time lay employees. Around half the employees are women and half men. We have around 1,500 registered households.


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    Muff Potter,

    I think they must! All that male idolatry/misogyny!
    A strange group indeed


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    Headless Unicorn Guy,

    How much of a voice do women and girls have during services?

    This seems to be the big sticking point regarding Beth Moore. If she were a harmless office manager, I don’t think there would be quite this much noise and excoriation. But there she was, in an alb, talking to the congregation—doing the very thing the wimminz are not supposed to do!


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    Friend: How much of a voice do women and girls have during services?

    During the liturgy, women and girls can present announcements, read the Lectionary, lead the Prayer of the Faithful or other prayers, present the offerings, and serve as extraordinary ministers of communion (if old enough). Only a priest or deacon can read the Gospel and deliver the homily (sermon).


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    Friend: and I’m not sure what the BCO is.

    Looks like a kind of carbonyl-substituted boron hydride. My organic chemistry is a bit rusty – I’m not sure whether that would be stable! It probably would. Whether there is an adequate theology of organoboron chemistry is another matter.

    I hope this is helpful.


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    Addendum:

    Borane carbonyl does indeed exist, and is stable at least to that extent. (I suspect you don’t want to get it wet, though.)


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    christiane: wow, what a scam to exert control over people through manipulation!

    Characteristic of cults, New Calvinism would not exist if its leaders did not exercise manipulation, intimidation, and domination over their followers … behavior which are not fruit of the Holy Spirit. Counterfeit ministers and ministries depend on getting church members to submit to illegitimate authority. Christ has no influence or authority in such places; men are on the throne.


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    Muff Potter: They worship a different god than the one I know.

    The New Calvinist God is very demanding … try to escape and he’ll have the dogs track you down. You don’t worship him, you submit to him … or else.

    The clergy/laity dynamic in New Calvinism continues to amaze me. I don’t know which is the stranger bunch … the pulpit or the pew.

    “The prophets prophesy falsely,
    And the priests rule on their own authority;
    And My people love to have it so!
    But what will you do when the end comes?” (Jeremiah 5:31)


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    Nick Bulbeck,

    We might look it up in the Book of Common Organics. 🙂


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    Friend: We might look it up in the Book of Common Organics.

    I hope it does not include organic moments.


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    Max: I don’t know which is the stranger bunch … the pulpit or the pew.

    They’re in collusion. Codependent.


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    Friend: But there she was, in an alb, talking to the congregation—doing the very thing the wimminz are not supposed to do!

    And all that hullabaloo over one obscure verse in 1 Timothy.


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    Ava Aaronson: They’re in collusion. Codependent.

    “And My people love to have it so!” (Jeremiah 5:31)

    “They are blind guides leading blind followers. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit” (Matthew 15:14) … New Calvinism is a pit.


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    Friend: But there she was, in an alb, talking to the congregation—doing the very thing the wimminz are not supposed to do!

    I also gather that in a liturgical church the alb represents the baptismal robes so something any baptized Christian is eligible to wear (e.g., choir robes are often a variant of this). Note that some liturgical churches do forbid a woman from reading the lessons and/or distributing the communion (I doubt you would see either at a Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod church [which doesn’t even allow women to vote on church matters] and unusual at a Missouri Synod church).
    The Anglican Church North America has mixed views on ordaining women which means some dioceses allow it and some don’t though the whole does not permit women to become bishops. It is a current dispute with some of the non-ordaining bishops wanting ordaining women be phased out. The Diocese of the Western Gulf Coast which seems to be where Beth Moore lives allows women to be ordained (or so I judge by the wording on qualifications for ordination) though the process is multi-step https://www.dwgc.org/new-page-1


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    Erp,

    My Missouri Synd church must be unusual. Women read the lessons except for the Gospel which is always read by the pastor. They also distribute the wine during communion. I realize that it is an unusual church. They have been my supporters for which I’m eternally grateful.


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    Erp: some liturgical churches do forbid a woman from reading the lessons and/or distributing the communion (I doubt you would see either at a Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod church

    When we visited a WELS church, everyone with petty to grand authority was male. Only WELS members could receive Communion. Even at that, a person from a different WELS congregation had to fill out a card with their name, local church, etc. The ushers analyzed the cards, decided who passed muster, and marched people forward in small groups.

    I’ve received and watched Communion in many different Christian churches. This was about the most oppressive thing I have ever seen during a church service.


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    Erp: Note that some liturgical churches do forbid a woman from reading the lessons and/or distributing the communion

    NOT Romish Popery!

    Though there’s a male priest behind the altar at St Boniface, a lot of our lectors and Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist (full title of communion distributors) are women.


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    Max: The New Calvinist God is very demanding … try to escape and he’ll have the dogs track you down. You don’t worship him, you submit to him … or else.

    Side effect of such a New Calvinist God:

    It makes Satan into not only a lesser Cosmic Monster, but a Hero.
    Because he dared to stand up to such a greater Cosmic Monster.


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    Cynthia W.: During the liturgy, women and girls can present announcements, read the Lectionary, lead the Prayer of the Faithful or other prayers, present the offerings, and serve as extraordinary ministers of communion (if old enough). Only a priest or deacon can read the Gospel and deliver the homily (sermon).

    Same here.

    But that’s ROMISH, and the Reformed must do the exact opposite to show how Reformed they are.
    “NO POPERY!”

    “If we must stand because enemy Christians kneel, that is Protestantism taken to its most sterile extreme.”
    — Thomas Howard, Evangelical Is Not Enough


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    Friend,

    I went to a Lutheran church for an Easter service shortly after leaving my church of 17 years. The cards were in pews, but we didn’t need them because they didn’t bother with Communion at all even though it was Easter. It was depressing reading that card and knowing they probably wouldn’t allow me to take communion. A Christian for 35 years and not allowed to make my own decision about Communion, especially after just leaving a controlling reformed church.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy,

    One reads that some Catholic parishes limit the liturgical roles of women/girls, going beyond the clergy/laity distinction with its specified parts. I’ve even heard of some where the Spanish choir isn’t allowed to do rumbas or cumbias, as if God doesn’t want Latin American people to be happy.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy: NOT Romish Popery!

    Though there’s a male priest behind the altar at St Boniface, a lot of our lectors and Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist (full title of communion distributors) are women.

    However that is a post Vatican 2 innovation and not approved of in all places. The current pope this past January finally approved a change in canon law that officially allowed women to be appointed permanently to the ministries of lectors (read the lessons, the priest reads the gospel) or acolytes (who are automatically eligible to be extraordinary ministers). Previously it was more ad hoc and diocese by diocese.
    On Lutheran services the ELCA is not likely to check your status as the right kind of Christian.
    BTW for a somewhat early but English Christmas Eve service, Ely Cathedral, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncrTDS4u0ME Ely can be chillingly cold (medieval cathedrals tend not to come with heaters). I haven’t seen the whole yet but the main service starts about 15 minutes in and has the Ely choir.


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    Though this blog post is not about Beth Moore, since she was brought up let us remember a couple of things:
    1. Beth Moore is herself a victim of sexual abuse. As such, she is a vulnerable person despite her competency. Therefore she is a person the church should seek to protect and protecting her voice is a part of that.
    2. As a sexual abuse victim, Beth Moore stood up for other sexual abuse victims when she learned her denomination was silencing them. Since her power was derivative (as all power is) as soon as she expressed her disagreement with her denomination there was nothing to do but leave (because it is anathema to speak the truth to power).
    I have to say I admire her for trying to find a new place to worship as I sit here on Christmas Eve with no place to worship myself. This is directly a result of not being able to find a trustworthy pastor/elder.


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    Dee–yes, your LCMS church would be considered highly unusual where we live. Women cannot read the lessons or assist with Communion. They do however serve on “power” committees and usher, as well as tend the kitchen and serve as the altar committee.

    But our pastor allows no one to read except him.