Greetings Dee and Todd. You mentioned you were receiving some disturbing information about Bruce Ashford in a comment to a previous post. Do you have any updates about that? I saw an update on his Facebook asking people to donate money so he can keep writing. He also has an ad online for offering his services as a proofreader or editor. And he mentioned in the update that he is working 30 hrs per week for Lyft to pay the bills.

Can you give us an update? Why did SEBTS treat him differently than others who no longer work there? He didn’t get the goodbye party as you mentioned. And that is strange considering Daniel Akin posted a goodbye tweet about his good friend James Merritt who has recently come under fire for telling the racist joke about Rustus (?).

“It appears the judge got irritated by McLean Bible Church’s arguments in which they attempted to sound all holy-like.”
+++++++++++++++++++

God gets just as irritated.

(i don’t think i’m being presumptuous)

Wild Honey: “Platt has claimed that the church is trying to fight off a hostile takeover and that Satan is trying to divide the church.“

Platt is SOOOOOOOO Important and SOOOOOOOO Godly that Satan himself is singling him out for special attention.

What would God ever do without such a Spiritual Giant as Platt?

Obviously, Platt’s mistake was not implementing a strict form of membership covenant before the first elder vote. This is a reliable way to exclude people who won’t kowtow.

Also, the covenant could be structured to forbid lawsuits as a first resort, and the prescribed alternative dispute resolution mechanisms will favor the one paying for the ADR, i.e. the church hierarchy.

——

In DP’s favor, though, I will give him this — he isn’t trying to consume the homes of widows.

Perhaps avocational (or professionals, if any) church historians among the commentariat could compare the shenanigans at MBC with some of the more notorious episodes in the history of church councils. I have the impression (very indistinct, admittedly) that some would make the strong-arm tactics at MBC look comparatively tame.

Not justifying MBC; rather suggesting that “there is nothing new under the sun.” “Money” and “Power” are always enticing (thankfully there isn’t yet a “Sex” angle in this story.)

The thought occurs that there may be a connection between the recent post on ‘de-/re-construction’ and current events. Perhaps de- and re-construction (can one call that semper reformanda ?) is ongoingly necessary to avoid something worse.

Perhaps we need a third category to include with “de-/re-construction”.

Perhaps “self-destruction?”

“pushing critical race theory, revising biblical teaching on sexuality, and aligning with the SBC”
One of these things is not like the others. This sounds like flinging feces at the wall to see what sticks. It seems this pastor is pretty unscrupulous, but perhaps some of his opponents are as well.

We’ve been churchless since shortly after COVID began, but will probably start looking soon. I think we will do our best to avoid churches that have enough goodies to be worth fighting over.

Dee I love you work. David Platt is not “an ardent Reformed” anything. David Platt is a woke, social justice guy. He has bought and has become an advocate for Critical Race Theory. I can’t see his heart but it looks like he is “reformed” to achieve something else.
Reformed in the traditional sense meant at least in part to someone who had a high view of scripture and was committed to all of it. David Platt is now committed to being woke and Critical Race Theory. Though I know he may protest.
There is no way that you can make Critical Race Theory compatible with the Bible. It is ridiculous to try. Christ taught that we were all one in Christ Jesus, that there where no Jews or Greeks, male of female. Jesus never said that anyone who was Caucasian was guilty because they were white, which is what the culture is teaching through CRT.

Ava Aaronson,

This says it all…. What I continue to observe, both in “the church”, Big U politics, local, and National Politics, is to act deceptively, loudly yell/bully your side/view of situation, and just keep pounding your way…. Unless the “other side” is just as “devoted to the truth” as “bad actor” is devoted to power, “bad actor” will eventually win….

The only “consolation” is that bad actors eventually self destruct…. But, the “collateral” damage they do can be quite huge….

Ken A: David Platt is a woke, social justice guy. He has bought and has become an advocate for Critical Race Theory.

I dislike Platt and have believed for a long time that McLean Bible Church is very unhealthy. But where is the CRT notion coming from? All manner of inflammatory accusations have been lobbed at Platt, including the rumor that he wanted to sell a church property to Muslims to build a mosque.

It seems possible that none of the loud voices are telling the truth.

Max,

Thank you, Max. This church also has a very long history of associating itself with the powerful. I’m sure they have purely wanted to lead various politicians and wealthy CEOs to ever greater righteousness. That would explain their panic, now that the numbers are down: it takes a multi-campus throng to bring influential people closer to the Almighty.

/sarc

Long before covid reared its ugly head, I watched this sort of take over in definitely non Calvinista Nazarene churches. And again in the SBC in two different states. And one Lutheran church. It is nothing new, just more open and vicious now.

I sometimes “attend” different churches around the country on line during the pandemic. (Yes, it is still DURING it). Interestingly, one I listened to was an AME church somewhere in Indiana. They referred to the sanctuary in the building and the online sanctuary, and had ways for those that preferred or must attend online, from wherever in the world they were, to connect and find fellowship and care.

But several of the SBC churches lately seem to be pushing “Look around you. God has done a marvelous job of making this a church of younger people. Not a gray head in sight this morning. Isn’t this wonderful?” Goes along with a pastor in a Colorado SBC we visited years ago that did not want people to be able to see the senior adult SS class, or to see seniors in the worship service. He went to great lengths to hide them.

So the older faithful members are told basically to go to h e double hockey sticks while sending in their money??

What about treating the older men as fathers and older women as your mother? What about respecting your elders that truly are elders, not appointed elders from the youth group?

Others, both SBC and CotN, have dropped their live stream, or their videos, or their zoom, google meets, etc services. They state “There is now no reason not to be in church.”

UMM, maybe if you are in your 30’s and have the full shot regimen and everyone is masking. And not singing. Otherwise, church is still a risky superspreader event, especially for those over 70.

When I was a pastor, I was busy enough with pastoral care, weddings, funerals, studying for sermons, preparing for Bible study, administration, meetings, etc., etc., etc. that I did not have the time to plan church takeovers, write NDAs, try to control church members, and all the things that go along with bein a Neo-Cal pastor.

Wonder what is lacking in their ministeries?

Friend: I dislike Platt and have believed for a long time that McLean Bible Church is very unhealthy. But where is the CRT notion coming from?

Snarl buzzwords.
Disconnect every neuron above the brainstem and wave a Bright Red Murder Flag in front of what’s left.
If this was the 1950s it’d be “COMMUNIST! COMMUNIST! COMMUNIST!”
Welcome to the Two Minutes Hate as morning devotions.

P.S. It’s important to draw a distinction between “CRT” and “Anti-CRT”.

Ken A:
Headless Unicorn Guy,

So true. Do these people ever listen to what they say? Talk about someone with a high view of themselves. Gee

Bob Larson, Mighty Spiritual Warrior(TM), said exactly the same thing about himself. Claiming that Satan even wrote nasty messages in the fog on his bathroom mirror (just like that scene from the movie Ghost).

P.S. They’re both talking about the Psychopath Archangel who was the model for Sauron and his First Age master/mentor Morgoth. Why would such a powerful supernatural being spend all his time writing nasty messages on Bob Larson’s mirror and/or making a 17th Century farmer’s cow’s milk curdle?

Max on Tue Dec 14, 2021 at 09:19 AM said:

“After much weeping and gnashing of teeth, the old members rebelled and left to form another SBC church. The young whippersnapper pastor got his way … the church, all its resources/assets, and elder-rule polity … and a star in his crown for the New Calvinist movement”
++++++++++++++

to say this infuriates me is an understatement.

the older members are the ones who funded/paid for it all through faithful sacrifice of their hard-won earnings over the years.

and then they’re tricked to give away. it’s like financial fraud.
.
.
i go to my dad’s ‘home group’ and play hymns for them to sing to on the piano because they miss them so much. it means so much to them, they have tears streaming down their faces each time.

Ken A on Tue Dec 14, 2021 at 09:47 AM said:

The link in your comment goes to a 2008 article about Alabama football.

The “reply” option are on the blink again for me.

Bridget,

It is Capstone Report. He comments on Alabama Football also. Dee quoted Capstone above a different article though. Sorry if I did something wrong in copying the link.
https://capstonereport.com/2021/07/14/mclean-bible-church-pastor-i-want-to-torch-white-people/36613/

elastigirl: the older members are the ones who funded/paid for it all through faithful sacrifice of their hard-won earnings over the years.

Discarded Hosts for an Anointed Parasite.

McLean PPP loan (sic):

https://projects.propublica.org/coronavirus/bailouts/loans/mclean-bible-church-6918747103

“MCLEAN BIBLE CHURCH Vienna, VA
Loan Amount $1,848,800”

“Loan Status: Forgiven”

Transforming into basically a grant, gift, or subsidy just shy of $2 million? How about that

“Where applicants said the money will go:
Payroll $1,386,600
Utilities $462,200”

Almost half a million dollars on utilities. How about that.

That amount adds up to the loan amount, yet:

“Amount Forgiven $1,874,227”

So the amount forgiven (quite the term to be used in this context) is $25,427 more than the loan (or grant) amount? That might be what some consider the church equivalent of pocket change or walking around money, but might others alternately consider that as a tad generous on the rendering side of things, especially given from where that money came?

dee,

Food banks are a good choice these days, as well as domestic violence programs and homeless shelters.

Our church used to have a food pantry. A few years ago this was turned into a supermarket gift card program, much easier for people in need.

I am surprised they didn’t pull a Bob Malm, claim the members who filed suit were “domestic terrorists,” and seek a protective order. But then, even this sorry lot has better ethics and accountability than the Episcopal church.

Dee said: It works for many. Have you rebooted your computer recently?

I’m on my phone and, yes, have tried rebooting.

elastigirl: the older members are the ones who funded/paid for it all through faithful sacrifice of their hard-won earnings over the years.

and then they’re tricked to give away. it’s like financial fraud.

It’s happening all over the SBC. The New Calvinists have come in like a flood by stealth and deception to take away what old saints spent a lifetime paying for. They apparently justify such behavior thinking they are restoring the “gospel” that the rest of Christendom lost somewhere along the way (gospel = Calvinism). They will be judged harshly for treating folks this way … taking away their church home, plundering their stuff, changing belief and practice contrary to the real Gospel, setting up authoritarian rule over the pew, subordinating Jesus, enslaving female believers to the “beauty of complementarity”, etc. Nah, there’s nothing about New Calvinism which is of God.

Jeffrey Chalmers: Exactly…. I am seriously rethinking my “giving”….. I have NO trust in that org that claims it independently evaluates the finances of Christian orgs.. I forget the alphabet soup for it… I have seen enough to no it is a joke..

Currently I regularly give to Salvation Army (family tradition; they helped my Dad out when he was an enlisted man in the Pacific during WW2), Covenant House (homeless shelter for teens), FINCA (microloans to Third World peoples), and sometimes local food banks and Habitat for Humanity. And once a year to Caterina’s Club, a local charity that provides regular meals (and housing assistance) for the working poor in my (expensive to live in) area.

Caterina’s Club (https://caterinasclub.org/) is run by “Chef Bruno” (owner of a swanky Italian restaurant in the area), and holds an annual “Pastathon” every December; the latest Pastathon raised almost a million USD plus 50 tons (50,000 kg) of foodstuffs to be put to use in the coming year. Before COVID, I used to donate a car trunk-full of foodstuffs (dried pasta and bulk-size cans of sauce ingredients and seasonings), but with COVID I’ve had to do online cash donations.

dee,

Praying for your mom, Holly’s adjustment, and your sanity in the midst of holiday chaos/joy.

GEFS!

This is a bit of a content-free wee post to log my new email address on the system. (I am definitely that Nick Bulbeck, but then, I suppose I would say that, wouldn’t I?) While I’m on, though, I hope all my fellow-Wartburgers are as well as may be.

Nick Bulbeck,

Evenin, yer lordship. Message received. 🙂

I think I figured out the Chrome issue. From the console in developer tools, it looks like it’s not loading the javascript to handle the comments functions because it’s referencing it as HTTP instead of HTTPS. I’m not sure why it doesn’t auto-upgrade the connection to HTTPS.

The error is:
Mixed Content: The page at ‘https://thewartburgwatch.com/2021/12/13/david-platt-and-maclean-bible-church-advancing-the-evil-members-takeover-theory-loses-the-first-round-in-their-legal-battle/#comments’ was loaded over HTTPS, but requested an insecure script ‘http://thewartburgwatch.com/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.js?ver=1.0’. This request has been blocked; the content must be served over HTTPS.

This results in the following console error when you click on the reply links
Uncaught ReferenceError: inlinereply is not defined
at HTMLAnchorElement.onmousedown (VM867 :1765)

Nick Bulbeck,

I saw a special report on this. It is exciting!

Nick,
You really should publish an acronym glossary for those of us with less than stellar ‘figuring out’ skills.

linda: Long before covid reared its ugly head, I watched this sort of take over in definitely non Calvinista Nazarene churches. And again in the SBC in two different states. And one Lutheran church. It is nothing new, just more open and vicious now.

I remember when I lived in a small Texas town one summer back in the late 1970s, there was a big hooraw over who would become pastor of the First Baptist Church. There was a LOT of money involved, the pastor would get the princely sum of $25,000 a year! (At that time, average household income in the USA was around $16K.) I’d never seen a church fight, even at a distance, and I was amazed.

JDV: So the amount forgiven (quite the term to be used in this context) is $25,427 more than the loan (or grant) amount? That might be what some consider the church equivalent of pocket change or walking around money, but might others alternately consider that as a tad generous on the rendering side of things, especially given from where that money came?

That extra $25,427 is the accumulated interest on the loan. Had they not gotten the loan forgiven, they would have been responsible for that money as well.

Max,

My problem was on phone. It’s working so I’m good for now anyway. 😉

Max on Tue Dec 14, 2021 at 09:37 PM said:

“When they get old, will they weep when they remember big screens, fog machines, and skinny jeans?”
+++++++++++

‘tcha, No!

ee gads, it’s like being stuck in a pepsi commercial.

Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: big hooraw over who would become pastor of the First Baptist Church. There was a LOT of money involved,

Where there’s money, there are cons, including pulpiteers & their higher ups (their orgs).

Donors are wined & dined & massaged. In turn, the donors lavish the pulpiteers & org leaders. Church becomes the power of money, which has nothing to do with the power of the Holy Spirit.

Among the big donors themselves, there’s Old Money, New Money, and Dirty Money.

Occassionally, the Holy Spirit has actually gifted someone with the gift of giving, or wealth for God’s purpose. A whole different story.

John,

Todd/Dee,

Any updates?

GuyBehindtheCurtain,

Chrome and Edge on windows don’t work, Safari on iOS and Chrome on android do.

GuyBehindtheCurtain,

marco: Chrome and Edge on windows don’t work, Safari on iOS and Chrome on android do.

I’m running Chrome on a laptop with Windows 10, and have had no problems on TWW. I did have plenty of other tech problems starting a week ago. Discovered that Chrome was out of date, although other updates had been pushed to my laptop, maybe to prepare for Windows 11 (but who knows why some updates are pushed and some are not?). So, one thing to try: update Chrome.

I have mixed feelings about the use of lawsuits in churches for issues that are not violations of criminal law. However, as I was thinking about this situation, I think that civil suits such as this one are acceptable because of the way these churches are being transformed: the leaders want to adopt a corporate mindset, with the pastor serving as CEO, executive pastor as COO, body of elders as board of directors, etc., but they do not want to be subject to governing laws like corporations (yes, I know churches are non-profit corporations by definition). IOW, when you play with fire, don’t complain when you get burned.

John,

John: Why did SEBTS treat him differently than others who no longer work there? He didn’t get the goodbye party as you mentioned. And that is strange considering Daniel Akin posted a goodbye tweet about his good friend James Merritt who has recently come under fire

Ashford seems to have received the “David Nelson” treatment (FWIW, I had interacted with Nelson several times prior to his departure and found him to be a genuine and caring man; I do not have the same feelings about Ashford). I know there was a rumored backstory to Nelson’s departure but am not sure it ever became public.

Nick Bulbeck: Slight tangent here from the Wartburg Science Department, but many Wartburgers will be interested to know that the James Webb Telescope (or JWT) – the long-awaited successor to Hubble – has been fixed to the top of its Ariane V launch vehicle today; launch is scheduled for next Wednesday, 22nd December.

AN ARIANE?
“THE FRENCH FIRECRACKER” THAT BLOWS UP ON LAUNCH MORE OFTEN THAN ANY OTHER LAUNCH ROCKET?
After the JWT passes that hurdle, it has to unfold and deploy the origami folding puzzle it needed to fit in the fairings. That’s why so many planetary scientists and orbital astronomers are following Space X’s heavy-lift “Starship” development – Space X Starship could launch large payloads like that (up to 100 tons to orbit) without having to fold them up like origami puzzles.

Jeffrey Chalmers: I keep think about the infamous video of Pop Al Muehler saying if you are truly ‘spiritual”, or some other, “pious noun”, you will end up at a Neo-Cal church

Remember the quote that came up in relation to the Duggars?
“THE MORE PIOUS, THE MORE PORN”?

GuyBehindtheCurtain,

I emailed my findings. Sorry it didn’t occur to me there was was a tech support address for the blog.

Thanks

Loren Haas,

That’s wonderful! I’m glad your church has adapted and continues to help in such loving ways.

(Separately: I’ve never understood why some churches make people fill out forms for a bag of groceries.)

Our church is in a small downtown area. A lot of people stop by needing direct aid or contacts. A network of congregations helps with counseling, staffing the local shelter, etc. If somebody says they need bus fare to get to the clinic or courthouse, they will get a bus pass. If they say they need food, they will get a card to use at the supermarket. The counseling is the deepest part.

Some aspects are anonymous, like the huge effort to buy food and gifts at Christmas. Church members shop for specific items for an anonymous family. Gifts and food are delivered by a small team, so that random members don’t learn that families from school are having trouble feeding their children.

All of this has evolved throughout the pandemic, but it’s still going strong.

Max,

Mohler: “…if you’re committed to the gospel and you want to see the nations rejoice in the name of Christ….Reformed theology….”

So the nations will rejoice that most of them have been eternally predestined to eternal torment in hades for the glory of God?

Or “by the nations” Mohler means the predestined heaven-bound men of the nations can rejoice because the predestined heaven-bound women will finally be eternally submissive. No more annoying unsubmissive prickly feminists anymore. Rejoice!

dee: Like I said.
“Anna Duggar Refused To Let CPS Interview Her Kids About Abuse But Things Might Change Now”

https://littlethings.com/lifestyle/anna-duggar-kids-josh-conviction?pubdate=1639386000000

I am not trying to introduce politics into a thread, but after reading the linked piece, I have to ask the Duggars: do you seriously think Pres. Biden has a vendetta against your family? In all honesty, he may only vaguely be aware of the name Duggar and has a bit too much on his plate to worry about Josh’s trial and (necessary) conviction.

Dissociate much?

John Smith: Mohler: “…if you’re committed to the gospel and you want to see the nations rejoice in the name of Christ….Reformed theology….”

The disturbing bottom-line in that statement for Mohler and the New Calvinists is that you (generic you) are not committed to the gospel if you don’t hold to reformed theology. And he wonders why some corners of Christendom doesn’t like him and his stinkin’ thinkin’ about the eternal souls of men.

Loren Haas: we were better at loving

As the Church of the Living God should be!

“If I speak with the eloquence of men and of angels, but have no love, I become no more than blaring brass or crashing cymbal … If I dispose of all that I possess but have no love, I achieve precisely nothing.” (1 Corinthians 13:1-3 Phillips)

readingalong: Thought it was a great idea, again done anonymously but a great way for people to feel like they were helping neighbors.

This is a good way to involve children. We have tender memories of taking our offspring to the store to help pick out dishes for a family of four, who were moving from the shelter to a small apartment.

Friend: This is a good way to involve children.

Absolutely! My youngest (now a teen girl) is an “expert” shopper, so I sent her off to find many of the items! (and when she was with me shopping, “Don’t buy THAT”…)

Burwell Stark,

Nelson is still with his backstory. The Ashford situation is interesting. The last thing Dee posted in a comment was “We are receiving some disturbing information.” But no updates from Wartburg as of yet.

A comment like that definitely merits a follow up. If they weren’t able to verify the disturbing information, they owe it to Ashford to share that. If there’s more, just a simple update will work.

John,

As they use to-say in the military, RHIP, rank had its privileges..
as we see time and again in TWW… RHIP is alive and well in the Evangelical, Industrial Complex.. EIC…

Burwell Stark: I am not trying to introduce politics into a thread, but after reading the linked piece, I have to ask the Duggars: do you seriously think Pres. Biden has a vendetta against your family?

Just from that, I can predict the Duggars’ answer to the question “Who won the 2020 Elections?”

I attended McLean Bible many years ago when Lon was pastor (and also attended CLC before Josh Harris became pastor. Guess I have good timing!) Anyway, everyone I knew who still attended there has now left because of this conflict. There is also still an older singles’ group, which many people I knew were part of. But the rumor has been that the church is no longer going to support the existence of the group by giving them money for events, etc. Kind of sad since there’s a large population of singles in this area and that’s the one church that has something like that. And I did hear that there was not a proper vote on the elders. The Washington Post article on all of this was interesting.

“There is also still an older singles’ group, which many people I knew were part of. But the rumor has been that the church is no longer going to support the existence of the group by giving them money for events, etc.”
+++++++++++++

Why???

There must be no money or power in it. No return on investment.

How utterly stupid, short-sighted, uncharitable, nasty, and at least 25 more words like this.

Former CLC’er: There is also still an older singles’ group, which many people I knew were part of. But the rumor has been that the church is no longer going to support the existence of the group by giving them money for events, etc.

Then the old saints need to demand that MBC give them back all their tithes and offerings which they gave during their younger, more prosperous years! I suspect that there are several widows/widowers in the older singles’ group. I guess the New Calvinists in charge at MBC now haven’t run across James 1:27 yet commanding that the old folks be supported … as a demonstration of pure and genuine religion.

Headless Unicorn Guy: Max: “Josh Duggar’s father Jim Bob loses Arkansas state Senate primary after son’s guilty verdict in child porn case”

Funny about that.

Best comment I have seen thus far at the bottom of the article: If you exclude the voters from his own family he only got 1% (HT SignFelled346).

Max: One member I personally know was excommunicated for attending the old saints group

By coincidence, I just received a new-n-improved Bible, with Bluetooth AND a virtual reality headset! It has a new translation of a story now called the Prodigal Grampa. After working his whole career at remote client sites, Grampa returns to the family home he built with his own hands. O joy! His son is out front, slaying the fatted calf!

The son turns to Grampa and yells, “You there! Get offa my lawn!”

John: Nelson is still with his backstory.

Hold the phone. I think I figured out the identity of the woman. Did she work at the Center for Great Commission Studies back when Nelson was provost? I think she was working on her Ph.D., too.

Also, if I am not mistaken, Ashford was director of the center at the time.

Max on Thu Dec 16, 2021 at 09:55 AM said:

“One member I personally know was excommunicated for attending the old saints group, but attending worship services at another church in order to not be under the YRR pastor’s sermons.”
++++++++++

it’s just sickening & repulsive & many other more extreme words.

but a message for the member you personally know — he/she is under no pastor’s sermons, let alone the pastor himself.

he/she could be sitting in the front row and they would be not be under him or his sermon.

at no time past, present, or future would they be under any pastor or his sermon.

they are over and above the sermon by virtue of their own personal agency and their status as a dignified human being.

Samuel Conner: these entities are functionally for-profit enterprises

… in addition to being non-Prophet organizations

Headless Unicorn Guy: “THE FRENCH FIRECRACKER” THAT BLOWS UP ON LAUNCH MORE OFTEN THAN ANY OTHER LAUNCH ROCKET?

That’s cuz’ they didn’t get von Braun and his team of German toy-makers in 1945.

dee:
Like I said.
“Anna Duggar Refused To Let CPS Interview Her Kids About Abuse But Things Might Change Now”

https://littlethings.com/lifestyle/anna-duggar-kids-josh-conviction?pubdate=1639386000000

Noticed that their stair-step offspring are at regular two-year intervals. Like clockwork.

From other sources the CP on Golden Boy Josh’s secret PC partition seems to indicate he was into a particular subset of pedo centering on not just children but INFANTS.

Makes me wonder if Anna’s two-year rhythm cycle was to give Golden Boy Josh a new one when the previous one aged out of his target profile.

P.S. You don’t even see crap like this in Furry Fandom. To paraphrase that Rabbi from Tarsus, Christian Family Values Josh was into something so TWISTED that not even the Goyim have a word for it!