We don’t believe that the powerful leaders we admire could possibly abuse their power. We don’t want to see because if we see, we must either act or carry the guilt of not having done so. We don’t want to see because it threatens our belief in the virtue of our leaders and the worth of the system. The leadership is perceived as good, based on what is said, preached, taught, or promised, and we tell ourselves that’s the whole truth. We also dread the harm of exposure. What will happen if this truth is known? It will ruin the reputation of the group. Or worse, it will damage the name of Christ. “This is his work; we cannot ruin it.” We believe institutions such as church and family are God ordained and therefore must be protected at all costs. So we cover and deny. We react with disbelief, minimizing, and lying to self and others.
Langberg, Diane. Redeeming Power (pp. 80-81). Baker Publishing Group.
On July 30, 2021 The Chapel Church in Akron, OH published their tenth Leadership Update. You can read the update at this link on The Wayback Machine, or in the text below.
When you pass through the waters, I will be with you…
Isaiah 43:2a
We write today with sobering news.
By way of brief background, on May 20, 2021, Pastor Tim Armstrong sought the resignation of Pastor Mike Castelli. Pastor Tim made this decision based on his belief that there existed under Pastor Mike’s leadership a culture among the staff at the Green Campus that did not support Pastor Tim’s overall vision for the church. Pastor Tim felt that these cultural differences were contributing to a breach in the foundational unity of our church. When Pastor Mike declined to resign, Pastor Tim terminated Pastor Mike’s employment.
Around the same time, concerns of a very different nature were brought to the Board of Trustees, involving claims against Pastor Tim of harshness and fear-based leadership toward The Chapel’s staff. The Trustee Chairman called a Constitution Committee to investigate the issues, and the Committee engaged The Center Consulting Group to help with the necessary fact-finding to discern an appropriate path forward.
Pastor Tim and Pastor Jim Mitchell went on paid administrative leave so that these issues could be searched out objectively and thoroughly. Pastor Mike was reinstated, but immediately placed on administrative leave pending the investigation. While it was the hope of both the Constitution Committee and the Board of Trustees to make simultaneous decisions about whether any or all three of these pastors could be reinstated, the significance and complexity of the findings of The Center Consulting Group made it clear that the decisions needed to be made one at a time. Therefore, over the last several weeks, we prioritized and focused our efforts on the issues surrounding Pastor Tim. As Senior Pastor, we believed that the issues pertaining to his leadership of the church staff were paramount.
After extensive review, the evidence reveals a consistent pattern of conduct that substantiates the concerns raised about Pastor Tim’s leadership of the staff. Given this troubling and consistent fact-pattern, The Constitution Committee unanimously recommended to the Trustees that Pastor Tim, in accordance with language outlined in The Chapel’s Constitution, is unable to fulfill the duties of senior pastor and therefore cannot be restored to the role of senior pastor of The Chapel. The Trustees unanimously voted to affirm that recommendation. Pastor Tim agreed to resign, effective immediately.
Pastor Tim wrote the following:
Chapel family,
My family and I are deeply grieved by the present circumstances. We have often said to one another that this may be the most difficult trial of our lives but that we desire above all else to traverse these days with humility, godliness, and honor. My greatest desires are for the unity of the church and staff and therefore agree with the Trustee’s that it would be best for me to resign my position as Senior Pastor of The Chapel. I also realize that you as a church have been facing difficult trials. My last charge to you: Set your heart; Follow the Lord carefully; Follow the leaders and Guard the unity of the church and your relationships with one another. I wish these days to be the best of days at The Chapel in the way you respond and follow those who have charge over your souls. It has been a pleasure for me to serve and lead you over the course of the last seven years. Please know that I will not cease to pray for you in the future.
In Him,
Tim ArmstrongWe are grateful for what the Lord has accomplished through Pastor Tim’s ministry at The Chapel. The Saturate campaign is establishing new campuses throughout northeast Ohio. We are seeing disciples made through global outreach initiatives around the world. More kids than ever are experiencing the personal nature of Jesus in life- transforming ways at Camp Carl. Thousands have heard the truth of the Gospel through excellent expository preaching. Though we are imperfect, the Lord is good.
Next Steps
Regarding Pastor Mike and Pastor Jim specifically, they both remain on administrative leave. As previously indicated in this letter, the Constitution Committee and Board of Trustees are approaching the decisions surrounding each man independently of one another. We now intend to resume the decision-making process surrounding the issues related to Pastors Mike and Jim, including the issue of unity among staff members at The Chapel. Our hope is to follow up with each of them individually and then make a prayerful decision on how best to proceed. To do so effectively, we must take additional time. While our initial intention, as expressed in our July 10 update, was to communicate all decisions by August 9, we now realize that the release of further decisions and next steps may occur closer to the end of the 90-day timeline given in our June 5 update.
We understand that changes to the timeline can be frustrating. We are deeply sorry to increase your waiting. We remain committed to honest and consistent communication with you throughout this process. At the close of the decision-making phase, we will be providing additional information from our fact-finding measures in a Summary of Findings.
With respect to ongoing leadership, our current interim leadership structure remains in place for now. The ministries of The Chapel continue as planned. Our Trustees will begin working on long-term organizational and governance plans for The Chapel once all decisions have been completed, related to the three pastors.
We know that the Lord is ever at work in His church. We also know that there is an enemy who wants to destroy this work at every step. Please continue to pray with us for wisdom and courage. Pray that, instead of bitterness taking root, the Holy Spirit would continue to move us in powerful ways to love one another, showing ourselves disciples of Christ. Pray that, in this season at The Chapel, we would serve to advance the cause of the Gospel. Pray for Pastors Tim, Mike, and Jim and for the Armstrong, Castelli, and Mitchell families.
We are grateful for your commitment to the Lord and to His church. Thank you for your patience and your prayers.
I wait for the LORD, my soul waits, and in his Word I hope…
Psalm 130:5
Sola Gratia,
The Chapel’s Board of Trustees
Reactions on The Chapel Church Facebook page were varied, but the two most frequently expressed sentiments to Tim Armstrong’s resignation can be summed up by saying “Armstrong has been abusing staff for seven years, it’s about time he was forced out,” or “Armstrong was a great teacher, I love him and can’t understand why all this information is being aired publicly.”
As you read above, the status of Mike Castelli, lead pastor of the Green Campus, and Jim Mitchell, Executive Pastor of the Akron Campus, has yet to be determined. I am not privy to any of the facts in this case, so I am unable to make an intelligent choice on what the outcome will be for these two men. Whatever happens, I am sure The Chapel will take a big hit on membership, many of the former members will likely join the ranks of the “dones;” that is, people who have reached their limit of sinful pastoral behavior and decide they have had their fill of the corporate church scene.
The Chapel is not a proponent of 9Marx doctrine, even so church members undoubtedly are badgered with the Scripture verse from Hebrews 13:17:
“Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.”
At some point the working stiffs in the pews need to rise up and say enough is enough! It seems to me that the majority of problems in churches today spring from the pampered preacher class, specifically the celebrity class, many whom have led cushy lives and received outstanding renumeration for keeping watch over the souls of those who finance their “lifestyles of the rich and famous.”
It’s past time for these men to worry a little less about giving an account for the lives of their church members and a little more about giving account for their own lives.
It will be interesting to see whether Tim Armstrong will now have to get off his butt and find himself a real job, or whether one of his cronies (Thomas White comes to mind) will offer him another cushy, high paying job.
I think the guy is unfit for ministry. I base that on two things – first, as a member of the Cedarville University Board of Trustees, Armstrong voted to retain Thomas White as the President. This, in my opinion, demonstrated a serious lack of integrity. Second, re-read Armstrong’s statement to The Chapel Church members:
“My family and I are deeply grieved by the present circumstances. We have often said to one another that this may be the most difficult trial of our lives but that we desire above all else to traverse these days with humility, godliness, and honor. My greatest desires are for the unity of the church and staff and therefore agree with the Trustee’s that it would be best for me to resign my position as Senior Pastor of The Chapel. I also realize that you as a church have been facing difficult trials.”
Did I miss an apology of any kind? Did I miss a confession of sin? No, the pastor apparently doesn’t believe he has done a thing wrong and thus displays no repentance. This is unbelievable. A senior pastor is not forced from his position without some serious sinful issues.
Were I a part of the leadership team that removed Armstrong there is no way I would have signed off on Armstrong’s statement. Their words also needed to be stronger. As it stands, Armstrong will be able to sell his resignation from The Chapel to his next employer as a mere misunderstanding between him and a few divisive people.
Further, this bogus statement will allow Armstrong to remain on the Cedarville University Board of Trustees. Thomas White should be pleased.
I would guess Armstrong will also be able to keep his “The Worthy Walk” radio program. Hypocrisy? Nah. In the words of Spiro Agnew, those are simply charges from “the nattering nabobs of negativism.” Winsome folks would never be so divisive as to raise the issue. Thomas White will continue recommending CU students to “take a listen to” The Worthy Walk!
Below is a PDF document containing all ten of the Leadership Updates from The Chapel Church.
The Chapel – 10 Membership… by Todd Wilhelm
The screenshot below is likely the surface reason Tim Armstrong initially fired Mike Castelli.
To summarize, I commend the leaders of The Chapel for doing what I believe to be the right thing, that is, calling for the resignation of Tim Armstrong. I will wait until further evidence comes out prior to stating with certainty that the leaders should have been more forceful in their statement and perhaps terminated Armstrong instead of allowing him to resign.
I will also wait to see what the leaders determine to do with Mike Castelli and Jim Mitchell.
I will be watching to see where Tim Armstrong next finds employment.
first
brian,
You’re on top of your game, Brian!
Number one on a rare Saturday evening post!
I feel badly that so many Christians are witnessing this dysfunction in their churches. There is no doubt in my mind that the stories on this site do a good job documenting the pastors’ poor “leadership” as the cause….. so it is good that these issues are getting exposed. My question, if Todd or Dee could weigh in, is what do we do with the Hebrews 13:17 passage? I know that these bozos use it as their proof text to bully members into submission, so I am not questioning that aspect at all. I have never really heard a solid exposition in the proper context so I guess I can study it for myself.
Todd writes in the post:
“At some point the working stiffs in the pews need to rise up and say enough is enough! It seems to me that the majority of problems in churches today spring from the pampered preacher class, specifically the celebrity class, many whom have led cushy lives and received outstanding remuneration for keeping watch over the souls of those who finance their ‘lifestyles of the rich and famous.’”
That’s it. Quote from Todd’s post. Todd notes that there will be Dones, after enough of Pastoral Un-“Worthy Walk”.
IOW: Keep Calm & Move On
Interesting to note that in The Chapel’s 2013-14 search for Senior Pastor, Tim Armstrong was considered but was not the first candidate offered the job. That offer was declined, and Armstrong resubmitted his name as the search was renewed. Ultimately he was offered the job.
Hi George,
I would recommend looking at Wade Burleson’s handling of this text. Here is a link:
https://emmanuelenidarchive.org/fraudulent-authority/
Go to lesson six and download the 2 pages of notes. I believe you will find it helpful. You can also listen to his teaching at the site.
Nikki,
I wasn’t aware of that, Nikki. Thanks.
> Did I miss an apology of any kind? Did I miss a confession of sin?
I suspect that this line from TA is the “tell”:
“My greatest desires are for the unity of the church and staff”
Castelli was terminated for this reason — to protect the unity of the church (under TA’s vision). If the overarching goal is “unity” under the current leadership, then I suspect that in TA’s view the dismissal of Castelli and prior patterns of staff treatment were not wrong — they served the goal of “unity”, which is a biblical goal (“be ye like-minded”, 1 Peter 3, perhaps also Phil 2, though of course those texts also have a great deal to say about how people related to each other as they pursue “unity”).
Under changed circumstances, with TA no longer in charge and no longer able to enforce unity under his vision, “unity” is best served by TA’s resignation.
There may be no (internal) inconsistency here from TA’s point of view. That’s not to justify the alleged prior pastoral abuse, just to hypothesize how people can rationalize their behavior as serving a higher purpose.
Samuel Conner,
A reasonable hypothesis….
I was just about to write that TA fired Castelli for not following TA “vision”…. So, here we go with this “vision” thing….. To my ears, “ vision thing” is current American business lingo infiltrating the church…
So, what should the “vision be” and more generally, the vision of “The Church” be, and more specifically the local church be?? And, is that the role of “lead pastor”, and are we pew peons violating scripture we do not agree with “lead pastors” “vision”???
In my professional world, the vision, or its sister, the “strategic plan” changes every few years…. based on who are “dear leader is”, of pressure applied by the Board of Trustees..
“the two most frequently expressed sentiments to Tim Armstrong’s resignation can be summed up by saying “Armstrong has been abusing staff for seven years, it’s about time he was forced out,” or “Armstrong was a great teacher, I love him and can’t understand why all this information is being aired publicly.”
And then there’s always the bunch in the middle “Yeah, Pastor Armstrong could get mean and ugly at times – even downright unChristlike – but WOW he sure could preach!”
No matter which way the elders went on Armstrong, members will leave. When ministries are built around personalities, other than the person of Christ, these things happen. It will be tough for either of the associate pastors to stay at TCC now, with divided loyalties in the pew.
The authority and influence of Jesus is waning in the American church. TCC is yet another example. Will the Church of the Living God ever get back on its feet, where Christ is truly head?
Shut the background noise down, listen carefully. Across space and time, you will hear echos from the faithful of other fallen authoritarian bad-boy leaders: “Hybels was a great teacher!” … “Driscoll was a great teacher!” … “Ravi was a great teacher!” … “MacDonald was a great teacher!” etc. etc.
You, too, could have a great ministry … all it takes is a touch of charisma, a gift of gab, a working knowledge of the Bible, and a hatchet to chop away all those who get in your way. Oh, this will eventually catch up with you, so enjoy the ride while it lasts.
When will this madness end?
“The Chapel will take a big hit on membership, many of the former members will likely join the ranks of the “dones;” that is, people who have reached their limit of sinful pastoral behavior and decide they have had their fill of the corporate church scene.”
The “Dones” are perhaps the largest growing segment of Christianity in America. If they could be rallied in your community under solid called-by-God leaders, real deal pastors, who are motivated by their love for Christ, who desire to serve (rather than control) you, who don’t give a big whoop about fame and power, who see their role only as a member with other members of the Body of Christ, who preach the Gospel not theology, who equip and mobilize all members to fulfill the Great Commission together … well, you could have CHURCH as it’s meant to be! Unfortunately, such leaders are a rare and endangered species.
“Did I miss an apology of any kind? Did I miss a confession of sin? No, the pastor apparently doesn’t believe he has done a thing wrong and thus displays no repentance.”
And how many times have we seen this?!! No need to worry about Mr. Armstrong. After a short restoration period (usually 6-12 months), he will launch an unrepentant comeback … perhaps in the area with faithful followers who will exit TCC (if they hadn’t already) to join him.
“Where there is no vision (no revelation of God and His word), the people perish (are unrestrained)” (Proverbs 29:18 AMP)
People are perishing at TCC. What does that say about Pastor Armstrong’s vision?
Max–arguably, the root of the issue is finding those leaders. Our Leader already told us not to call any man “father.” The whole top dog leader schtick is out the door. Maybe if enough pew peons quit sitting under “leadership” and quit even looking for “real deal God called pastors” and starting following our High Priest we could have real churches.
Just a thought. Maybe the problem is not who sits on the cathedral chair, but the whole idea of having one to begin with.
“We [my family and I] have often said to one another that this may be the most difficult trial of our lives but that we desire above all else to traverse these days with humility, godliness, and honor.”
Have you often said to yourself that you might have avoided “the most difficult trial of your lives” if you hadn’t treated your employees like s***?
Absolutely. Evidenced throughout history and repeatedly in our day. Very well stated, Thx.
Only Jesus is worthy.
Church is lateral relationships, different responsibilities, different stages of growth but all on level ground.
Even with mentoring, learn from, but be very careful about submit to. Never yield agency to another person. Boundaries. Never submit agency.
Perhaps when the assembly doesn’t cede it it’s ability to exercise accountability, transparency, and oversight so as to guard against hirelings and grievous wolves where all that is really known about them are academic credentials and / or a magnetic presence as well as a “vision”.
Part of that may be going beyond limiting their level of interest to what appears to be competent exegesis, and being willing to have hard conversations about problems that arise. That can include being proactive and having safeguards in place that rein in the power of the often well-financed staff to prevent it going beyond the point of accountability.
“UNITY, COMRADES! WE MUST HAVE UNITY!”
“WE ARE UNITED BEHIND THE VISIONARY!”
In the words of the prophet Robert Zimmerman:
“The Cavalry charged,
The indians died;
We were a young country,
WITH GOD ON OUR SIDE!”
Don’t forget
“BUT HE SAVED SO MANY SOULS!”
– Mike Warnke fanboys after Cornerstone exposed him as a total fraud.
1) Usually followed by “HOW MANY SOULD HAVE YOU SAVED??? HUH??? HUH??? HUH???”
2) Souls(TM), not people – the Currency of Heaven, and Money Talks.
Doesn’t that just OOZE “See How Polished MY Halo Is?”
“IN FIRE.”
— Vorlon Ambassador Kosh, Babylon-5
Amen! Tim is reaping what he sowed.
I believe Castelli will have no problem with divided loyalties at Green as he is loved and respected there. Many there have said they will leave if Mike is let go. And the Green Chapel is almost always full, whereas Akron Chapel is a ghost town.
Bad Karma will f*** you up every time.
“Respond and follow those who have charge over your souls?!?”
What the heck. No one has responsibility for my soul but me and God. Although I’d thank certain Episcopal clergy to avoid trying to run my soul over with a pickup truck.
Yes, problems may arise. Sometimes right from the top.
“I remember feeling so gross and confused. It’s not flattering when your hero looks at you sexually.”
https://medium.com/@jonesmary321.mj/moving-forward-b40408a3887b
Format makes this extremely difficult to follow but an Outdated cedarville trustee list is given here
What to keep front & center when engaging in “church”.
The “those who have charge over your souls” mantra is a black hole. God save us.
Specifically, trustee and SBC seminary president Danny akin resigned upon white’s restoration citing that action as reason.
This seems to escape every leader who speaks about his trials 😉
Eric Bonetti,
As a former Chapel attender, this phrase made my skin crawl the most.
A separation of clergy from laity was never intended for the Body of Christ. Until that ends, we won’t really be doing Church.
I’m certainly not Dee or Todd, but I happen to remember the series on Hebrews 13 posted by Paul Burleson so I’ll pass those links on to you in hopes they will help:
Perverted Authority
https://vtmbottomline.blogspot.com/2011/01/perverted-authority.html
AUTHORITY AND CHURCH LIFE____PART THREE
https://vtmbottomline.blogspot.com/2014/03/authority-and-church-lifepart-three.html
AUTHORITY AND CHURCH LIFE____PART TWO
https://vtmbottomline.blogspot.com/2014/03/authority-and-church-lifepart-two.html
I mis-typed my name above….should have been Victorious. So I’m posting it again here.
George:
I’m certainly not Dee or Todd, but I happen to remember the series on Hebrews 13 posted by Paul Burleson so I’ll pass those links on to you in hopes they will help:
Perverted Authority
https://vtmbottomline.blogspot.com/2011/01/perverted-authority.html
AUTHORITY AND CHURCH LIFE____PART THREE
https://vtmbottomline.blogspot.com/2014/03/authority-and-church-lifepart-three.html
AUTHORITY AND CHURCH LIFE____PART TWO
https://vtmbottomline.blogspot.com/2014/03/authority-and-church-lifepart-two.html
Sunday Times interview with Matt Damon today, the same is happening in film, paradigm shift:
“One immediate difference between when Damon started out and now is that the leading men no longer sell the films most people watch… character is more important to audiences than the actor.”
Character surpasses star power. No more leading men driving the market.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/is-matt-damon-the-last-of-hollywoods-leading-men-gdh9bcwqd?utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=matt_damon&utm_medium=branded_social
And, celebrity pastors?
Yes, thanks William. That Board of Trustees list was current in 2020. I mentioned this in my original post on The Chapel Church dated July 5, 2021.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2021/07/05/the-chapel-church-is-in-a-crisis-the-thomas-white-connection/
“To my knowledge, only two members of the Cedarville Board of Trustees voted against reinstating Thomas White. These two were Danny Akin, president of Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, and Mark Vroegop, lead pastor of College Park Church in Indianapolis. Both men were so disturbed by the vote to reinstate Thomas White that they resigned their positions from the Board of Trustees.”
Oh, yes, but also, I can see them staring at the ceiling wondering, “How on earth did this totally unexpected thing happen? I can’t see any reason for it!”
Bridget,
Yes, it’s all so unexpected, *drink*!
Just speculating here, but I wonder if perhaps that is why Tim Armstrong wanted to get rid of Mike Castelli?
Max,
Great teacher = generally entertaining for 40 minutes a week
Even with a “great teacher”, most churchgoers forget the sermon points by the time they find their car on the parking lot. IMO, we’ve got too many teachers in American pulpits and not enough preachers.
“He must become greater; I must become less. He must become greater and greater, and I must become less and less. He must increase, but I must decrease.” (John 3:30)
“Celebrity” pastor is not a holy calling.
That’s why you never hear such church leaders talk about “soul competency” and “priesthood of the believer” … those Biblical doctrines challenge their throne.
The “charge over your souls” language is a reference to Heb. 13:17.
Sure.
“Hebrews 13:17 J.B. Phillips NT Obey your rulers and recognize their authority. They are like men standing guard over your spiritual good, and they have great responsibility. Try to make their work a pleasure and not a burden — by so doing you will help not only them but yourselves.”
Context: within a healthy church setting that respects proper boundaries while the vetted leaders equally recognize & submit themselves to all 18 gifts of the Holy Spirit to the church (Rom. 12. 1, Cor. 12, Eph. 4) – that may work. All 18 gifts on level ground at the foot of Jesus Who sits on the throne.
Always good to read the entire Bible, without cherry-picking the rules-for-thee-but-not-for-me verses. (Big red flag for a leader to flash this verse without the context of all 18 gifts.)
Rom. 12, 1 Cor. 12, Eph. 4
Eric Bonetti,
That was my first thought as well. Good riddance to a man who thinks anyone has charge over my soul other than God!
Ava Aaronson,
@Ava – and adding 1 Peter 5:1-4 which is a reminder to the “elders” not to “lord it over those allotted to your charge” because the elder has to give an account to the Chief Shepherd whose flock they have been “given to their charge.” The flock belongs to the Lord Jesus who gave His life for the flock. The “undershepherds” must keep this in mind. I think the majority of undershepherds understand this and they serve the “small” and “average” sized church. It is the celebrity pastors who are fleecing the flock. I do know of pastors of large churches who are serving well. However it is the “celebrity” pastors who think too highly of themselves and forget they have been given a stewardship that we continue to read about.
Amen! It matters not if a church is “mega” or “mini”, the attitude of the heart (self vs. Him) is at the root of the celebrity spirit in the American church.
Ava Aaronson,
Here in lies a fundamental problem of so many Christians, and Christian orgs…. citing a single scripture reference for a specific “issues”…. the old “ I have verse for that!”
More like
“I Know I’m Right —
I HAVE A VERSE!!!”
Or “Dueling Scriptures”, where you quote verses back and forth to each other, PROVING GOD Is On Your Side until one steamrollers over the other.
“If you question what I say or do –
YOU REBEL AGAINST THE FATHER, TOO!”
— Steve Taylor, “I Manipulate”
Meanwhile REAL CHURCH marches on: that I know of today, Christians in my area are growing food and sharing it with those that cannot do so. Others are raising meat and eggs and sharing that with those that need it and cannot grow it. Some will provide free medical care to the un/underinsured today. Some are checking in on friends, the elderly, and family to make sure they are safe and healthy since we are a pandemic epicenter. Some are administering covid shots allowing folks to stay under the radar since it is a social no no for some to get the shot. Some vaxxed folks are masking up, giving out masks, working odd hours to try and keep the immunocompromised safe. Some from many denoms are praying the chaplet of Divine Mercy, or parts of it, asking for God’s mercy on our suffering entire world.
The work is getting done. No human deserves the glory, and God is really present with us.
Which brings us to the deeper fundamental problem of cherry-picking text out of context to support “specific issues” (like pet theology) … rather than drawing on the whole of Scripture. Cherry-picking Paul (his epistles) without consulting Jesus (the Gospels) has led to much confusion in the church … NeoCal being the most recent example.
“Were I a part of the leadership team that removed Armstrong there is no way I would have signed off on Armstrong’s statement. Their words also needed to be stronger.”
+++++++++++++++++++++
unity unity unity unity
“united in our unity as we unite over unification”
christians are very stupid when it comes to this.
i marvel… all it takes is for ‘Paul’ to mention the word “unity” in his epistles, and since “obey” and “submit” also appear somewhere it’s suddenly biblical to be a spineless mealy-mouthed yes-man.
personal conscience is not permitted in church culture.
much better to be so-called ‘biblical’ and let the one with the biggest hat automatically go unchallenged in declaring ‘the truth’ of a matter, and have whatever he wants, when he wants it, however he wants it.
ridiculous.
Hebrews 13:17 is not a universal moral absolute that should be added to the Ten Commandments. This verse cannot be used to command allegiance from others. There were times when both Jesus and the apostles refused to submit to authorities.
As a general principle, it works—as long as we remember that the writer probably knew his readers and also the leaders to whom he asks them to submit.
In a different context, it might be entirely appropriate to tell some believers to ignore those who are lording it over them. A good reminders: The Bible is not written to us, although it is written for us.
Max,
Powerful comment, Max! You capture the truth about the current American curse of ‘personality cultism’ in the clarity of your writing.
Why does any ‘glory’ need to be doled out to God or humankind in the first place?
Isn’t it enough to just rest in the fact that the work gets done and is a betterment for all?
Sandy,
BINGO.
Re: “those who have charge over your souls,” certainly I don’t need an interlocutor, and I certainly don’t need a power-mad empire builder telling me what to do on Sundays.
It happens, though, that I discussed this charge/cure/care of souls with a youngish pastor one time. He genuinely believed he would answer to God for his part in influencing my beliefs and practices… for good or ill. Therefore he tried to live an exemplary life, to listen well, and to teach as best he could.
I found this quite humbling, since we both knew that the pastor had no real control over how I live my life. Still, I deeply appreciated the notion that the pastor and I could help each other, as my faith deepened.
And also dangerous and stupid.
Linda, Can you go into more detail about “The Divine Mercy ” It sounds fascinating.
Jeffrey Allen,
https://www.praydivinemercy.com
It’s the only way a “spineless mealy-mouthed yes-man” in the pulpit & elder board can get the pew to sit down, shut up and pay up. “Touch not thine anointed” is greatly overworked in the American church … and, as a result, the laity is supporting an illegitimate clergy in many places. Church history records that sort of “unity” just before ministers and ministries fell, while the pew obeyed and submitted to their counterfeit authority.
“Celebrity” pastor. Another oxymoron. The stage is a red flag. How is it that a servant is propped up on a stage: lights, music, fog machine…
@reachjulieroys has a podcast today, with Rebecca Davis, discussing:
“Untwisting Scriptures that were used to tie you up, gag you and tangle your mind”: Book 1 & Book 2 Patriarchy and Authority.
Davis exposes popular teachings:
-Women are too emotional to interpret Scripture, so they need a husband or father to reveal God’s will to them.
-Children obey your parents—all the time, in every way, and forever!
-“Umbrella Heresy,” those in authority over you provide a “spiritual covering” and protection.
-Loyalty is virtue, even if it means sacrificing what’s right.
Davis: Look at context of relevant Bible passages and author’s intent.
Chaplet of Divine Mercy is a Catholic devotion, practiced by many denominational folks with some tweaking. Even Rick Warren is a fan. (I am not a fan of his, just info.)
It would take a long explanation which can be readily found online, but it is acontemplative prayer. The statement “For the sake of Your sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world” is usually sung or prayed interspersed with several other prayers. Those of us not Catholic may skip Hail Mary and use the Agnus Dei or Gloria Patri or Doxology, etc in those spots. But it is a very beautiful focus on the fact that from Genesis on God IS merciful, that not only did Jesus bring us salvation but also a river of mercy from God, and that God delights to grant mercy to all.
Catholics on here can explain it much better than I, including the tie in to St. Faustina (did I get that right?). There are study helps and even a devotional Bible to help a person begin to get the idea that God is a God of mercy, that Jesus provides that mercy, and that we can freely run to the mercy seat.
It appears to me that right now our whole world needs a heaping helping of mercy. You can pray it any time but there is a tradition of 3 pm, so if you like the idea of praying with others even when in solitude google it and join in. See you at the foot of the throne then!
From the link: “(to pray at your computer) Mark the checkboxes in place of the Rosary beads.”
What a cool idea…. 🙂
(Although there might be some people who find the idea of a computerized Rosary sacrilegious.)
Since you are one of our official academics, here’s something to ponder:
https://julieroys.com/bible-college-trustees-honorary-degrees/?mc_cid=563a1aff92&mc_eid=785f4029ac
It looks like $$$ donors become trustees become awarded honorary doctorates at this Bible college.
However, the donor/trustee/honorees are using “Dr.” as their proper title and in their business collateral (business cards, etc.) – which is not proper standard etiquette in academia or business. Works for “church” & church institutions (higher ed.), though.
Ava Aaronson,
Sigh….. I went round and round with people years ago about the RZ scandal… I think part of the problem is that to many “evangelicals/fundamentalist” do not, deep down, respect education……
they are sure “watering down” what it means to work for many years to earn a Ph.D. …. and they think that “buying one” is the same as earning one….
In older churches taken over by the NeoCals, the young whippersnappers built stages over prayer altars (steps used by members as a place to pray before and after service). Since the new boys don’t pray much or encourage church members to do so, they needed more stage to strut their pride … so the altars bit the dust.
The pandemic has provided an opportunity for the Church to minister to the hurting around them … being the Church rather than going to church.
“If a brother or sister is without adequate clothing and lacks enough food for each day, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace with my blessing, keep warm and feed yourselves,” but he does not give them the necessities for the body, what good does that do?” (James 2:15-16 AMP)
“Love your neighbor as yourself” (Jesus)
Holy Nincompoop Syndrome.
Many years ago, the original Internet Monk said that in his part of Kentucky, the highest complement you can pay a preacher is “He Has NO Book-Larnin, and HE IS LOUD!”
It’s called “Pay to Play”.
Pay the money, get your Doctorate.
Just like a diploma mill.
“Because a good wife learns to cower
Beneath the Umbrella of Power;
From the portals of Heavens’ Gate
I MANIPULATE.”
— Steve Taylor
Where is “Your Area”?
From COVID shots under the radar, I suspect it’s a rural area in a Hard Red State. Last week morning drive-time radio covered young adults and teens in one of the low-vaxxed Bible Belt states (Missouri?) who had to get their COVID shots under the table. As in having to go out-of-area and wear a disguise.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
That is the real irony…. yes, Christ said you need to have faith of a little child, and their are passages by Paul that speakers down on “sophisticated arguments”; yet Paul is very “learned” for his time, and makes well reasoned arguments, allot…
so, again as discussed above, need to not cherry pick verses, but look at the “whole story”….
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel fame, as well others, use to call seminary “cemetery” …. that also gets a good laugh from pew peons….
I’m not Catholic and I still think that Hail Mary is one of most beautiful prayers ever.
TCC?? Familiar at all with this church?
What a divisive write up. The enemy is certainly at work in this.
There’s some random verse someone quoted in a pseudo church we once visited … “knowledge puffs up”. Pride.
So in this scenario of $$$/donor/trustee/honorary doctorate, best to have an empty meaningless degree so there’s nothing to be proud of?
Twisted. Scripture. Isn’t that a band name?
When you (generic you) have a Bible that allegedly speaks to any and all minutiae, and resolves all questions for all of life, why do you need to go to seminary?
Muff Potter,
LOL – caught in their doublespeak. Forked tongues.
Muff Potter,
Actually, seminary may be for refining the Bizplan, of running a church, business.
Cross out “working knowledge of the Bible” and you have a perfect description of Adolf Hitler.
“
I was an attender of The Chapel. I saw this as a congregant, experienced Tim Armstrong’s leadership style personally as spiritual and leadership abuse. The trustees say they didn’t know about this, I don’t believe that. I saw pastors, staff and trustees who challenged his leadership in any manner were forced out of their position and they were replaced, continually, with those he thought wouldn’t challenge him. Their constitution makes it very difficult to remove a Sr. Pastor. A question to ask would be how many people “were forced to resign” under his dictatorship style of leading? Also did anyone notice he did not sign the letter as Pastor Tim Armstrong? I can only pray that he sees he was unfit to be a pastor…
Ava Aaronson,
🙂
Headless Unicorn Guy–Much of northwest Ark. and SW Missouri are just as you described. That is indeed my region, the Ozarks.
Ava Aaronson,
A further observation. In my professional world I use my title of “Professor”. It is not so much bragging as it is a title of “legitimacy”. It took 11 years after earning a Ph.D., and “proving myself” at a University. And it is taken for granted when I am serving on professional committees/panels outside of big U that my Ph.D, and Professorship was EaRNED. I consider a person putting Dr in front of their name, without defining it as honorary, if that is what the degree is, FRAUD…. period…. When this done by a preacher, it disgusts me..
I really do not use it that much outside of work… especially “Dr”…. do not want hassle of being confused with a MD..
Muff Potter,
Muff–agreed and cannot get the quote to work for me this morning, but the Ave Maria is indeed beautiful. However, for many it would violate their conscience so they make the switch.
If allowed under ‘Religious Freedom’, they’d administer floggings and burn witches too.
Elizabeth,
“What a divisive write up. The enemy is certainly at work in this.”
++++++++++++++++
so…. you’re good with church as a totalitarian society, then, Elizabeth?
They knew. Church leaders who are supposed to hold bad-boy pastors accountable – and don’t – always deny such knowledge, lest church members turn on them. TWW has recorded numerous examples of such poor leadership. The whole leadership bunch at TCC should be in the same bucket as Armstrong for not addressing his authoritarian abuses over the years.
Tina,
… and numerous U.S. politicians over the years.
What do you mean, please? Are you saying that the main post is divisive, or that people at The Chapel Church are divisive, or one or more comments are divisive…?
In contrast to the evangeo churchy bubble of titles & degrees on paper only.
When the evangeo churches do this, it’s an insult to theologians and such that have accomplished academic and professional rigueur.
Gee whiz, gospel boyz, after establishing a church, add a seminary & a college. All the rage nowadays with the cult leader pastors. Their leap to academic cosplay.
Todd Wilhelm,
Ava Aaronson,
Yup… and ironic, when so many want to “down play” secular humanist learning, and then turn around and create their “own version” of it… which they control, in their image.. but of course, they will say they are doing it the TRUE way
And, now and then, those of us in the secular humanist U comes in contact with students with degrees from places like Liberty, Cedarville, and Bob Johns…
I agree, Max.
“Leaders who stand conveniently silent – or willfully ignorant – regarding the abuse and exploitation of God’s people by another leader, are idolaters.
They sacrifice innocent men, women and children on the altar of their own ease and self interest, which they often justify by their own warped concept of unity and misguided sense of friendship.
Understand that eventually you will be forced to give an account of your silence – not only to God, but in the “here and now” to His people whom you profess to serve.”
-The Sin of Silence, by Jim Wright
https://web.archive.org/web/20210803182807/https://crossroadjunction.com/2013/03/18/idolatry/
Thanks for your comment, Connie. It takes courage to publicly address what you have seen.
That sentence says a lot about the condition of some corners of the American church. Church members should never be scared silent regarding the misconduct of church leaders. Manipulation, intimidation and domination are not fruit of the Holy Spirit – such behavior by church leaders should never be tolerated. When folks have no access to yes-men elders to express their concerns, the Christian blogosphere provides them a voice. TWW and other watchblogs like it provide a valuable service to the Body of Christ … to inform, warn and encourage.
Elizabeth,
Thanks for your comment, Elizabeth. You will find that, unlike many heavy-handed, authoritarian pastors, we welcome dissenting views on this blog. Sorry for what you and hundreds of others from the Chapel Church have been forced to endure for the past few months.
“Whatever their bodies do affects their souls. It is funny how mortals always picture us as putting things into their minds: in reality our best work is done by keeping things out…”
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
No, she’s calling us all Satanists. Controlled by SATAN just like the Heathens ridden by Demons in an early Frank Peretti novel.
In indirect Christianese, of course.
“Divisive” when “We Must Have UNITY”.
“The Enemy” as in “SATAN and his WITCHES Everywhere”.
Correct. Because the enemy has been at work, this article was written to reveal his activity.
Isn’t that what the fanboys gush about Deep Throat Driscoll?
In a very old Internet Monk essay, IMonk related that the highest praise you could give a preacher in his part of Kentucky was “…and He Is LOUD!”
And if you want to see some high-energy revival preaching in action, check out Triumph of the Will sometime – “but WOW he sure could preach!”.
Because it means the Rules of CELEBRITY are in effect.
Like a virus infecting a cell, using the host’s resources to reproduce copies of itself and itself alone.
Whoever said that has NEVER seen me (a male) having an emotional breakdown.
(Of which I am very prone; I’ve never been wrapped all that tight to begin with, and 18 months of Pandemic Pressure Cooker does not help.)
Max,
Exactly… the very concept that we have to have this discussion is VERY depressing..
elastigirl,
if i misunderstood, Elizabeth, please shed a bit more light.
as i see it, when unity means tyranny in the name of God and people are treated in abusive, destructive ways in the name of God, it should be broken up / divided / Normandied… (just invented that word – hope it’s an ok allusion)
I sometimes give benefit of the doubt in case my assumption is wrong, and to coax people away from indirect Christianese.
Never heard these terms before. But I get it. And will use them come the opportunity.
MG,
“When ministries are built around personalities, other than the person of Christ, these things happen….
The authority and influence of Jesus is waning in the American church.TCC is yet another example.Will the Church of the Living God ever get back on its feet, where Christ is truly head?”
+++++++++++++++++++++++
well, for starters, it’s what they all say, even the christian cults of personality.
every single church/minister says this about other churches/ministers they dislike.
furthermore, every single one believes they themselves have some kind of patent on “doing it for Jesus and for his fame.”
.
.
but continuing on, it sounds good, but i’m truly at a loss for what any of it truly means.
honest questions:
-explain ‘the person of Jesus Christ’.
-how does one build a ministry around ‘the person of Jesus Christ?’ (remember, since you said Jesus, the answer can’t be paul or the bible)
-what is ‘a ministry’?
-what is ‘the authority and influence of Jesus’?
-functionally, how does one do ‘where Christ is truly head’?
Ava Aaronson,
if this ever becomes a thing, for the record, you heard it here first and elastigirl said it.
Well, we must first approach that question with the reality that believers are to serve a living Christ. If we can’t meet there, then the following is a mute answer.
After His resurrection, Jesus proclaimed ““All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me” (Matthew 28:18). Yet, the Church acts like men have authority over it, that Jesus is no longer King of His own Kingdom on earth in the here and now. That somehow somewhere over the corridor of time, men decided that we should do church according to a message and method to fit our space and time.
If we can’t fix our mind and spirit on the reality of a living Christ to which we can turn, then we yield to whatever men say we should believe and how we are to act. Jesus then becomes only a word in a book and a cross on the wall. If Jesus is not alive and well in His church, if He does not have lordship over it, then He has no influence. If I rely only on a knowledge of Jesus and not a personal experience with Him, then I’m pretty much on my own in my Christian walk. If I pray, but don’t expect a living Christ to hear and answer, what’s the point in praying? Lord knows how easily we have been influenced by those who have usurped His authority. This blog topic is but one example among many of the diminished authority and influence of Jesus in the 21st century church. At the root of the problem with ministers and ministries we see posted on TWW is that Jesus has little to no authority and influence over them or those under their watch.
Given the article at hand as an example, was anything said by the TCC elders like “We have sought the Lord on this matter in prayer and intercession and heard Him say clearly …” Does the average church do anything radical like that anymore?! Do they move when the Lord says move … do they stop when the Lord says stop? Do they think He is saying anything to them? Do they linger in the Word to hear Jesus speaking to them in the here and now? Are they led and taught by the Holy Spirit or only a man in the pulpit? Does Jesus have ANY authority and influence in their ministry?
Max,
well, in order to move beyond just sitting there basking in “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me (Jesus)”, one has to start doing something. which comes down to message and method.
what’s the dividing line between “men decided that we should do church according to a message and method to fit our space and time” and Jesus being king over his own kingdom?
Max,
–and thank you, Max, for taking the time to respond to one of my questions with the depth it was asking for.
now…
“If we can’t fix our mind and spirit on the reality of a living Christ to which we can turn, … Jesus then becomes only a word in a book and a cross on the wall. If Jesus is not alive and well in His church, if He does not have lordship over it, then He has no influence.”
+++++++++
ok, so i’m a praying person. i get physical feedback and ‘spiritual feedback’ (whatever that is) in the form of mental pictures, a sense of direction… it’s real and i take stock in it. it just isn’t stamped with ‘Jesus’ — it’s simply nebulous God’s Godness. The “I am who I am”.
what’s the dividing line between nebulous God’s Godness and the living Christ to whom we can turn?
is there a difference?
i reckon Jesus’ lordship and being alive and well in his church amounts to either an impression/experience of God’s Godness or the faith in God’s Godness in which an impression/experience doesn’t factor in.
(or just the idea of God’s Godness and nothing more)
Regardless of any fact of Jesus having ascended on high and all authority being given to him, spiritual interaction doesn’t get that specific.
elastigirl,
“Regardless of any fact of Jesus having ascended on high and all authority being given to him, spiritual interaction doesn’t get that specific.”
+++++++++++++
by and large, at least.
i’ve had a few friends and relatives who have had direct encounters with (to be clinical & objective about it) a surprise filmy, glowing humanoid being wearing a white… shall we say long-sleeved toga. with a very compelling presence. (to say the least)
but this is not the norm for any of them.
There is one God: the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. They interact with each other and you to let you know God’s will. God’s Word, a ‘feeling’ you have at the moment, the still-small voice in your darkest times, life experiences, a comment on a blog, visions, dreams … God is speaking. IMO, hearing God to position us to hear what He is saying depends on us removing all the noise and clutter that gets in the way. Sometimes, even doing “church” prevents us from hearing clearly. Choices.
Faith … depending on which we put a greater faith in (men or Jesus) sets the course for our Christian experience … whether we are church members or citizens of the Kingdom … there’s a big difference, although it’s possible to be both (if a particular church is indeed ‘the’ Church).
Max,
“Faith … depending on which we put a greater faith in (men or Jesus) sets the course for our Christian experience”
+++++++++
i’m going for the elusive nitty gritty, max. and if it’s because i either have a case of deep thinking or a learning disability, i’ll take the former.
just to clarify (and there may be more than one right answer):
1. faith in Jesus…. would that be
(a) Jesus of Nazareth, freckles & all?
(b) Jesus equals God’s Godness?
(c) Jesus equals the bible, here a verse there a verse everywhere a verse verseverse?
(d) or heaven forbid, Jesus equals Paul’s advice to jo blow circa AD 64?
.
.
2. faith in Jesus regarding what?
“I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.” (Galatians 2:20)
And with that, I don’t know how to explain any differently to others what I feel in my relationship with Jesus. What I see, I can’t unsee … what I know, I can’t unknow … it’s in my knower, this thing called “faith.”
Max,
““I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.”
++++++++++++
thank you again, Max. now i’m really like that pesky housefly:
it’s quite a concept. but what is the practical application for a method/message, ‘building a ministry’/’running a church’?
If the method and message revolve around men building a ministry and running a church, it’s a fruitless mission. “Unless the Lord builds the house, those who build it labor in vain” (Psalm 127:1). Which brings us back to the waning authority and influence of Christ in the American church … as mere men build ‘their’ ministries, doing church without God. I can take you to numerous churches in my area that were built and maintained by the method and message of men, but only a handful which were crafted by the Creator where Jesus is woven through the fabric … there’s a world of difference. The practical application that works in ministry is to have the Main thing the main thing.
Allow me to jump in uninvited.
For me it’s a hope for a better resurrection beyond the grave.
A repaired genome, one that doesn’t run down, or send corrupted information along the double helix.
No more aging, no more expiration date, no more death.
Neil Diamond put it this way:
Call the sun in the dead of the night
And the sun gonna rise in the sky
Touch a man who can’t walk upright
And that lame man, he gonna fly
And I fly, yeah
God (And) I fly
Holly holy dream
Dream ’bout only you
Holly holy sun
Holly holy rain
Holly holy love
We were discussing this at a Bible study last night.
The cooperation of Christians has, historically, founded hospitals and schools, and literally saved lives. The love of God, and what Christians can do as a group.
Max,
Muff Potter,
++++++++++++++
thank you both for responding. I appreciate it so much, considering the buzzing fly i am today.
every church and leader would say “well, of course God is building the house. Of course I’m doing church with God. Of course we’re keeping Jesus as the main thing.”
while i doubt many would come up with these words themselves, they all would say that their aim and intention for what they do is that it be “crafted by the Creator where Jesus is woven through the fabric”.
i think part of the problem is that d|psh|ts don’t know they’re d|psh|ts. (…no, i’m no exactly sorry because it’s the lightning right word).
now, i’ve had a lifetime of christian concepts foisted on me, but hardly anything at all that is practical. it kind of turns christianity into a collection of romantic ideas. i’m frustrated to infinity and beyond.
leaving me with a “so what?”
i’m certain these concepts can be broken down into practical actions. not approaches to take, or ways to prioritize,
…but actual tasks. tasks that are accompanied by thoughts, but there’s a doing, as well.
sometimes the ‘doing’ is just letting something happen, like, let’s say, oh, a “sneeze” that is on the verge of happening or not happening. even that can be broken down into ‘actions’ that can be coached.
(i’m good at this in my music teaching job — tricks, to help make something musical happen when it wouldn’t have happened otherwise. Actors have tricks — it’s not just some mysterious ability.)
so, imagine spending a day with jo or joanne blo in a coaching capacity.
muff, considering that ‘hope for a better resurrection’ is like a bunch of healthy ingredients to cook with, what 3 actions could jo/joanne do to make use of them to impact their lives (& those in their sphere) for the better?
max, considering that weaving Jesus into a fabric is like a making a supersuit of sorts, what 3 actions could jo/joanne do to help the weaving process?
and thank you.
I’ll let Solomon’s wisdom answer this for you (although I have helped Solomon a bit with my input in parentheses):
“If my people (jo/joanne), which are called by My name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land (their church).” (2 Chronicles 7:14)
Thus, there are three actions by jo/joanne to put Jesus in His supersuit in their church… actually, four things they need to do:
(1) Humble themselves
(2) Pray
(3) Repent
(4) Seek God
So simple, but so hard to do for most church folks. Doing church without Him is so much easier. Humility and repentance can be particularly … humiliating. Prayer and seeking God take so much time … we’re so crazy busy, you know. Thus, the beat goes on.
As a member of The Chapel, attending the Green Campus, I will say Pastor Castelli is humble, highly intelligent, personable, and an excellent Pastor. I have been at The Chapel since Dave Burnham, so I know very well what a good Pastor and leader should look like. I’m not sad Tim Armstrong will no longer part of The Chapel. I am sad at Tim’s behavior. I’m sad that not only non Christians are looking at this laughing shouting “hypocrites”, but reading comments here, fellow Christians are making great assumptions. Reading a bit of C. S. Lewis, he wrote once referencing a term familiar during WWII, “CARELESS TALK COSTS LIVES”. He switched the phrase around a bit to relate is specifically to Christians. “CARELESS LIVES COSTS TALK”. Our lives cause onlookers to talk about us, good or bad. Be mindful how you live as a professing Christian, as we are to be maintaining a Christ like life. The world is watching and will certainly talk about what they see. They can’t wait to point fingers. We as Christians shouldn’t be fueling that fire with careless responses. Don’t assume members of The Chapel didn’t read Tim’s letter being fully aware there was no repentance, apology, or admittance of wrong doing. We caught it. It further proves his behavior in his own words. We now anxiously await the return of Pastor Castelli as we all know he was a victim of Tim Armstrong. The Chapel trustees must continue the investigations process, which is the right thing to do. Will you pray for The Chapel family, and be thankful that, although none of us love this situation, this situation has brought to light what could have become much worse. Be thankful God intervened, even though we might not understand why it happened the way it did. We can all learn lessons from trials such as these.
Why do you support this church over another?
Have you ever, even once, criticized the teachings or folkways of any church, anywhere in the world?
Christlikeness sometimes means switching gears to turn over tables. TWW exits to protect the greater Body of Christ by informing and warning about wayward ministers and ministries. It’s a dirty business, but somebody better do it … there’s a lot that needs to be purged from the American church if we are all to be pleasing to God. Local church pews need to be more involved in this process, so the Body of Christ looking on – who loves them – doesn’t have to become involved. We’re in this thing together.
Max,
Thank you, Max. I appreciate your thoughtful responses very much, and taking the time.
Ava Aaronson,
“We were discussing this at a Bible study last night.”
+++++++++++++
no way.
hospitals, schools, literally saving lives….
a religion that focusses on meeting physical & other needs of neighbors near and far, regardless of creed or tribe. i’m all for that.
Susan,
“The world is watching and will certainly talk about what they see. They can’t wait to point fingers.”
++++++++++++
Hi, Susan. I’m really sorry for the difficult things that have been happening for you all. it’s not unfamiliar.
in zeroing in on the statement above — the world are decent, honest human beings, who recoil (and rightly so) at self-righteous hypocrisy of a sector of society (with integrity standards lower than their own) that looks down on everyone else with the entitlement to style them all (government included) as they see fit.
christian culture’s ‘us versus them’ thing is a mistake.
Agreed. I’ve noticed, too, that “non-Christians will criticize us” is often a handy code for “I’m embarrassed, and don’t want my church to get the kind of criticism and loathing I heaped on the church across town.”
It is painful to belong to the Church of the Bad Headline. Members might fancy that outsiders could not possibly understand, or the good outweighs the bad. They need to stop and think, though: How bad is the bad? How good is the good? If a temporary employee steals the church van, the congregation can probably recover quickly. But if people are suffering in a toxic or criminal environment, everything needs to slow down. The church might recover, especially if the truth is permitted to see the light of day.
You’re welcome. I had to go through various battles in life to develop thoughtful responses. Lord knows I’ve said things in the past in the heat of a skirmish without thinking!
Evangelical Christianity does not have that focus.
It’s primary concern is saving souls from the fires of hell.
Once ‘saved’, the focus is on the forgiveness of ‘sins’; past, present, and future.
So long as you’re not doing the horizontal boogie with someone other than your spouse, you’re good to go sin-wise.
Souls(TM), NOT people.
Peter Pan Nightgown and Harp on a Fluffy Cloud, NOT someone IRL who’s slogging through life like the rest of us. Uploaded into The Cloud, not Meat in Meatspace.
And tunnel-visioning on the Hereafter – ignoring the actual meatbag in Meatspeace connected to that “Soul” – can lead to atrocities.
“So what if I rack him ’til he die? For I shall have Saved His Soul.”
— “The Inquisitor”, Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur’s Court, Mark Twain
That ties into Christianese Sin-Sniffers’ known obsession with Pelvic Issues(TM) to the exclusion of everything else.
“When someone piously scolds you with ‘What Would Jesus Do?’, remind them that flipping out and throwing tables around is a Biblical option.”
You (generic you) can be a slum-lord, run a Ponzi scheme, be heavily invested in the arms industry, you name it, just don’t get caught having sex outside of marriage.
It’s the worst thing there is in fundagelical culture.
Todd Wilhelm,
I too thought the same thing! Goes with his narcisistic personality
“There Can Be Only One.”
One of the first things TA did when he came to The Chapel was to force everyone to switch to the ESV Bible. No if’s ands or buts. How much kickback was he getting Crossway from I wonder?
“Friend”
What’s with the attack on Susan? She shares her concerns in a kind and genuine way, and you challenge her? Sorry, not sure you accomplished anything with your comment.