Hoag’s Object: A Strange Ring Galaxy -NASA
“[God] will not be used as a convenience. Men or nations who think they can revive the Faith in order to make a good society might just as well think they can use the stairs of heaven as a shortcut to the nearest chemist’s shop.”― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
I don’t discuss politics at TWW, much to the dismay of some. Instead, I like to view things from a business perspective due to my MBA background. So, let’s take a look at things from that perspective and that’s the
McLean Bible Church had buildings and members with lots of money.
Folks, this is a really big deal. I got a call from a member of a tiny American Baptist Church in the Boston area. I had written an article about the SBC encouraging church planters to look for paid-off buildings and land. Instead of starting from scratch, meeting in school auditoriums and such, they should try to *takeover* churches that had the infrastructure in place. This old church was apparently quite beautiful. The number of members had shrunk. One day, a group of about 20 young adults, showed up on the doorstep, offering to do yard cleaning and maintenance for free. They claimed they wanted to join the church and help become a part of the running of the church.
The person who called me had read a post that I had done on this subject and knew what was probably going to happen. She educated the pastor who immediately saw the problem. I was told they had thrown the lot of them out of the church.
Mclean Bible Church was ripe for the picking. Ask yourself a question. Why would the head of the SBC’s International Mission Board, a died-in-the-wool Reformed Baptist, suddenly become available to preach on Sundays while running the IMB which had enormous financial problems. At the same time, he claimed he wanted to spend time with his family. He was not going to be a real pastor at that moment but it was almost guaranteed to happen. The baloney of being onboard as the head of IMB which coordinates things with the NAMB is seen in this article.
I can picture the SBC dudebros drooling over the possibility of acquiring MacLean. I wrote this post in 2017. David Platt May Be Many Things But He Will Not Be a Pastor to the People at McLean Bible Church. Platt couldn’t keep up his commitments and within the year became their full-time pastor. I wonder if anyone at MBC had an inkling of what might be going on. Platt got money, bodies, buildings, and even the possibility of changing the theology of the church. There is nothing that a Calvinista loves more than changing the direction of a church.
Some of you may want to read this post. The Reform of First Baptist Church of Durham. There are remarkable similarities.
Of course, MCB is now part of the SBC family.
I want you to put your thinking cap on for this one. When Lon Solomon started sending your money to the SBC’s North American Mission Board to partner in planting churches, what sort of churches do you think were being planted? Are they Lutheran Churches? Methodist Churches? Of course not, they were Southern Baptist churches.
What sort of churches do you think the NAMB plants? Lutheran churches? They plant SBC churches.
We understand that God’s purpose for DC and the nations is not just for MBC to grow larger and larger but for hundreds of thousands of churches to make disciples and multiply. That’s why we partner with the North American Mission Board (NAMB) through NCN to plant like-minded and like-hearted churches all over DC and among all nations.
Go over to the NCN and pick a church plant, see what you find. I randomly (promise) clicked on Pillar Church. The pastors were primarily trained at SBC institutions.
The Washington Post wrote David Platt’s dreams for McLean Bible Church sour as members file lawsuit over elder vote. These were the elders that Platt wanted. Then, there were reports of some shenanigans when those elders lost the first round of voting and then won on the second round.
Platt has angered other members for maintaining the church’s reputed ties with the Southern Baptist Convention.
The church’s constitution describes it as an independent church that “shall not, and cannot, be affiliated with any denomination.” But in 2016, under Solomon, the church began to give money to SBC church planting programs and it has donated about $100,000 a year as a cooperating church. When Platt began preaching at McLean, the church was identified as an SBC church in press accounts.
Current McLean leaders have denied that the church is a member of the SBC and posted a letter from the SBC’s Executive Committee to support that claim. The letter describes McLean as a partner with the SBC but not “affiliated denominationally with the SBC.”
But a spokesman for the SBC, while saying “McLean Bible Church, like all Southern Baptist churches, is an independent and autonomous local church,” confirmed that McLean is considered an SBC church.
Yesterday, in the midst of this mess, I checked the SBC church directory and MBC was still a member but the elders are worried and I bet that won’t be the case for much longer. This church has been playing the *we are not SBC* game for far too long. H
Here is David Platt speaking baloney.
Here is the screenshot from the SBC Churches Directory. The listing was still up at 4:15 PM today.
According to Christianity Today in Platt’s McLean Bible Church Hit With Attempted Takeover, Lawsuit from Opposition (I find it amusing that the takeover, for once, is aimed at the Calvinista.)
In its Q&A, McLean states that it is not Southern Baptist and links to an undated letter from SBC Executive Committee employee Ashley Clayton stating, “The SBC Executive Committee recognizes that McLean Bible Church is an independent, nondenominational Bible church, and they are not affiliated denominationally with the SBC.”
However, Baptist Press, the SBC’s news service, stated in a July 21 article, “McLean Bible Church is a cooperating church with the Southern Baptist Convention, yet like all Southern Baptist churches, remains independent and autonomous in its functionality and governance.”
MBC has suddenly stopped sending money to the SBC.
Looks like the elders are getting nervous since it is apparent that MBC has been swimming in SBC waters since 2016. The following is from the church website.
“IS MBC AN INDEPENDENT, NONDENOMINATIONAL CHURCH? DID MBC JOIN THE SOUTHERN BAPTIST CONVENTION? link”
MBC is and always has been an independent, nondenominational Bible church. In 2016, MBC began officially partnering with ministries of the Southern Baptist Convention when Lon Solomon made a specific motion among the elders to partner with these ministries for mutual purposes in planting churches and sending missionaries. But this never involved joining a denomination. You can read the SBC’s confirmation of the original partnership agreement HERE.
Despite the clear origin for the relationship between MBC and ministries of the SBC, we are concerned that communication about this partnership has often been unclear and confusing. This confusion has led various church members – including our elders – to ask important questions regarding MBC’s relationship to the Southern Baptist Convention. For this reason, we have suspended contributions to all SBC ministries until we can more fully evaluate the current state of the partnership decision made in 2016. In the meantime, we have requested that all SBC entities immediately remove any listing for McLean Bible Church on any SBC-related website that indicates in any way that McLean Bible Church is anything other than an independent, non-denominational Bible Church. Our understanding is that this process of removing our name from SBC websites – listings that never should have existed – has already begun and that corrections and clarifications are being made by the SBC as soon as possible.
Staff members must sign nondisclosure agreements.
I think there is far more to this story. Of course, a church should not disclose any private information about church members such as counseling notes, etc. However, if the church is involved in any problematic behavior, it is my opinion that an NDA should not be required. I have been told that Pastor Solomon had to sign an NDA. I would appreciate any confirmation of this. Many times churches tie the signing of an NDA to receiving benefits.
WHY HAVE MBC STAFF MEMBERS SIGNED NON-DISCLOSURE AGREEMENTS WHEN THEY HAVE LEFT STAFF IN THE PAST? link
As you can imagine, church staff members are privy to all kinds of very private information concerning the members and attenders of the church. Non-disclosure agreements are a fairly standard way to protect that information even after someone leaves the MBC staff.
In addition, we should point out that the church is also bound by similar agreements. There are a number of things related to the employment of former staff members that we are prohibited from sharing, even though we might wish we were able to provide helpful context in certain situations. In short, a non-disclosure agreement protects both the people of MBC and the former staff members from the disclosure of sensitive information after the working relationship no longer exists.
Final thoughts
- The church has a huge mess on its hands.
- I believe the church should call for an independent investigation into these matters.
- I believe that the church has been a long-time member of the SBC but the members didn’t know it.
- If Solomon had an NDA, they should release him.
- Joe Carter, Exec pastor and TGC leader can be quite mean at times. His Twitter account has been cleansed. However, the Christian Post wrote this story: The Gospel Coalition, Christian Bloggers Spar Over Sovereign Grace Ministry, C.J. Mahaney on Twitter Guess who was right.
- I don’t trust David Platt and I have a good reason. There is his apparent lie up above. (We are not SBC) Also, I wrote this post when I first met Todd Wilhelm: My, My Dubai: 9 Marks Played Hardball While Lifeway/ David Platt Stretched the Truth
Yes, I know there is lots more. I suspect there will be more posts as the mess progresses.
1
In the for-profit world, asset-rich corporations with little debt are attractive takeover targets. Here’s a discussion of this, in UK context
https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2021/07/asset-strippers-are-preparing-to-feast-on-britains-covid-ravaged-economy.html
Why should religious businesses be different?
What churches face:
-tiny American Baptist Boston Church, where 20 young adults, go from yard cleaning and maintenance for free, to wanting to run the church.
-large DC church where a pastor goes from weekend teaching pastor (fully employed already as large denom exec, double-dipping like Dubai guy?) to lead pastor, running the church.
Bodies, building, grand budget already in place, ripe for acquisition or take-over by YRR, running the show.
“A merger involves the mutual decision of two companies to combine and become one entity; it can be seen as a decision made by two ‘equals.’ A takeover, or acquisition, is usually the purchase of a smaller company by a larger one. It can produce the same benefits as a merger, but it doesn’t have to be a mutual decision.”
The takeover guys in these two stories are not representing a bigger company. However, they may be bullies, or have bigger egos or greater street smarts in how this all works?
Or, if it’s all SBC-related, which is a big denom, is it a takeover by a bigger company? Except the SBC doesn’t pay for anything, they just step in with their guy? And though the congregation that’s taken over is not SBC in overt name affiliation, if the takeover guy is covertly sending the SBC HQ denom big $$$ from the takeover church donors, perhaps the donors have been duped? Closer to the Mob than the Body of Christ?
This post is far better than the CT article which cloaks the whole thing as fresh new guys vs traditional old set-in-their ways passé seniors. CT going for the $$$, too, perhaps. The fresh new guys. Next gen.
Moreover, the comment in the last post claiming TWW was pretty much histrionic uninformed rubes, well this post, and surely subsequent comments, demonstrate depth & critical POV. A lot to explore here. Links, trail, pattern. Understand what’s really going on. (As always, follow the $$$. Following the $$$ was the trail, BTW, of a deceived disciple sending Jesus to execution. Jesus triumphed, though.)
“What sort of churches do you think the NAMB plants? Lutheran churches? They plant SBC churches.”
They plant “New Calvinist” churches under Kevin Ezell’s leadership at NAMB – he was formerly Al Mohler’s pastor (think about it). They are not that really interested in being identified with SBC – they use the denomination’s vast resources to plant reformed theology, not Gospel churches.
Why would we expect David Platt to operate any differently than other New Calvinists who have taken over churches for the new reformation? Stealth and deception are their modus operandi, which they apparently justify in their minds for the good of the movement. You really can’t trust these folks. Platt desires affiliation with SBC because he is worshiped by young, restless and reformed within its ranks. Elders at MBC have an opportunity to do the right thing with Platt … will they?
“I believe that the church has been a long-time member of the SBC but the members didn’t know it.” (Dee)
The Summit Church members didn’t know they were affiliated with SBC until J.D. Greear ran for SBC President. He apparently forgot to tell them they were Southern Baptists!
New Calvinist modus operandi … stealth and deception.
Max,
Elevation Church (Steven Furtick) in the Charlotte area is also Southern Baptist. They ate a whole shopping center near me, bought out the leases of businesses who were there before Elevation moved in. (On good terms, I hear.)
Article on David Platt and McLean Bible Church, 3/23/17:
http://www.christianpost.com/news/david-platt-joins-mclean-bible-church-as-interim-pastor-megachurchs-senior-pastor-stepping-down-177910/
https://blackchristiannews.com/2017/03/david-platt-joins-mclean-bible-church-as-interim-teaching-pastor-senior-pastor-lon-solomon-stepping-down-after-over-36-years-of-leading/
“McLean Bible Church was founded as a nondenominational church but according to McGowan, McLean “began cooperating with Southern Baptists in 2016” and is now “the hub for the North American Mission Board’s church-planting efforts in the Washington, D.C., area.””
“McGowan further explained to CP: “In accordance with the SBC Constitution, Article III, McLean Bible Church declared its affirmation of a faith and practice in doctrinal harmony with The Baptist Faith and Message, its commitment to become a cooperating church with the Southern Baptist Convention [April 2016], and has contributed to Convention work through the Cooperative Program Allocation Budget.”
And yet, here’s what was posted on the church’s “Who We Are” page, per an archived web page from October 23, 2016 (which I believe was later than ‘April 2016’):
http://web.archive.org/web/20161023005226/https://www.mcleanbible.org/who-we-are
“We’re a “Bible Church.” The Bible is our standard of faith and practice, and we are of no specific Christian denomination.”
That snippet had evidently been excised by July 2017 (while Platt was apparently still in place at the IMB despite the announcement regarding his joining McLean). Yet, I couldn’t find a word on the “Who We Are“ page indicating that the SBC is part of that, let alone such a prominent part as “the hub for the North American Mission Board’s church-planting efforts in the Washington, D.C., area” — another important fact that did not appear to be disclosed there as a part of who they are:
http://web.archive.org/web/20170531200106/https://www.mcleanbible.org/who-we-are
Correct me if I’m wrong here, but what this post seems to point out is that the takeovers are actually Big Denom’s power grab of an established local church’s “bodies, buildings, & bucks” already there.
Big Denom stealthily puts their guy in charge, and then covertly siphons $$$ from what is an already successful, solvent, & established church (with faithful tithers, donors). The Big Denom org has to pay their Big Denom bills (stained glass windows of founders and all), somehow. Takeovers, convenient.
Theology, whatever. This could be all about the money. The theology may have to kick in at some point, to keep the tithers on board (like via covenants, covenant theology).
Church order = theology. Keep it secret from mere congregation members = extra trendy theology. “Covenant” theology = extra extra trendy theology. Congregation got their theology fest already.
I definitely think money plays a central role in their movement, but I think their main driver is power. Money is a key way to acquire power. I am fairly certain a theocracy with them in charge is in the long-term plans (though it’s rather doubtful that will ever happen).
These takeovers often include multiple ways to keep current members from leaving. My former church tried to implement a retroactive covenant that claimed current members were bound by the covenant (and unable to leave without permission). Another way they do this is by simply lying about their intentions, which I suspect is what is going on at McLean.
I’m reformed and presbyterian. 5 point Calvinist, yada yada yada etc and so on.
What I support and demand is up front honesty. If a Calvinist is applying to be the pastor of a non-calvinist church, they should be up front and honest about it. Maybe it would work, maybe it might not.
Entryism – look it up in wikipedia – was a tactic used back in the 60s and 70s by Communists and Democratic Socialists to join political organisations or parties in order to take them over. It engendered a great deal of hostility when it was found out.
There’s nothing wrong with a church deciding to align itself with another denomination if they want to. If an independent church wants to join the SBC, let them. Nothing wrong with it. Just so long as everyone is up front and honest about the situation.
Thank you, Neil, for putting a word to the modus operandi of SBC’s New Calvinists … “Entryism.” Interesting that it has been a tactic of Communists/Socialists … much has been said on TWW and elsewhere likening the New Calvinist movement to the deceptive methodology of such groups. “Entryism” … remember that folks. Churches beware of those in your midst who enter through the backdoor, who deceive pastor search committees, who recruit like-minded members to tilt the congregation, who change church governance and theology, who eventually take over your church and send you packing. There’s a spirit behind this madness … and it ain’t holy.
Neil Cameron (One Salient Oversight),
Wow, thanks for the information on “entryism”. I had seen this at work in a neighborhood entity, but didn’t know it had a name and had been done so widely with such finesse. I learned a lesson today!
All it takes in the average SBC church to ensure that deep-pocket older members don’t leave is to guarantee that you won’t take away their potluck dinners. They care a whole lot more about fried chicken than theology!
Oh Ishy, the New Calvinists only lie when necessary for the good of the movement! After all, they have been called into the world for such a time as this to restore the one true gospel (= Calvinism) to the church. Thus, a little lying here and there through stealth and deception can be justified.
Calvin tried to pull that off in Geneva. When citizens desired to opt out of his utopia, they were shunned, exiled from the city, excommunicated, tortured and/or executed with the help of the magistrate. Fortunately, shunning and excommunication are about as far as the New Calvinists are willing to go!
Yes, I was pointing to the use of SBC’s “Big Denom” money to pay for church plants. The Calvinistas take over big churches and deep-pocket members to funnel more money to “Big Denom” for church planting … excuse me “theology” planting around the country. MBC would be a jewell in Platt’s crown if he can pull it off.
“Was McLean Bible Church *Predestined* to Come Under the Umbrella of David Platt and the Southern Baptist Convention?”
In Platt’s world, everything he says and does is predestined. While Ezekiel shouts from heaven:
“Your prophets announce false visions and make lying predictions. They say, ‘My message is from the Sovereign LORD,’ when the LORD hasn’t spoken to them” (Ezekiel 22:28)
I truly appreciate and agree with this perspective. Unfortunately, this is NOT the tactic employed by SBC ‘church planters’ nor ‘reformers’. Our little SBC church was nearly destroyed by a deceptive, lying pastor who decided to ‘reform’ us, whether we wanted to or not! We’ve also been approached by several church plants in our area wanting to ‘help’ or ‘partner’ with our church. No thanks! I’ve seen what happens when other groups want to ‘partner’ with an older congregation. We (gladly) took in some of those oldsters when their former church was taken over! As I seem to recall, stealth and deception are NOT part of the Fruit of the Spirit!
And that’s where it comes from, I am sure. I heard a few of their followers mention their vision for a utopia with the New Calvinists in charge, though the leaders seem very careful to avoid this publicly. Calvin did not create the utopia he wanted and neither will the New Calvinists, but they still try to do so in their little church kingdoms.
I appreciate Neil’s perspective, too. I would have a whole lot less animosity for the movement if they avoided their forced reformation methodology. Calvinism itself does have this in their history, but I don’t think the theology is the main reason. Greed and lust for power can do terrible things to people with any theology or beliefs.
Max,
In 2011, Scott Thumma wrote a book exploring his findings that 80% of church goers are spectators while 20% do the work of setting up the building, worship team, children’s church, etc…. The 80% aren’t just lazy parasites either! Many times the church doesn’t even try to engage them if they don’t want to sing in the choir or help with the kids.
Here’s my point: if a church goer is merely a spectator they won’t be involved in the behind-the-scenes work of the church and they won’t care a smidge about whether their church is SBC, EFCA, ECC, etc…
I think the only reason people at McLean care is that the current evangelical boogie man has been summoned: critical race theory. I am sure 80% don’t know or care if McLean is affiliated with a denom.
PREDESTINATION MEANS NEVER HAVING TO BE RESPONSIBLE.
“NOT MY FAULT! GOD’S WILL! GOD’S WILL!”
(
Which has replaced Teh Fag Card as the automatic Two Minutes Hate snarl word.
A New Geneva, with themselves as Calvin Ex Cathedra.
(But the Iron Throne has room for Only One.)
Reminds me of “THIS TIME WE WILL ACHIEVE TRUE COMMUNISM!”
YET.
Remember the Seven Mountains Mandate to Take Back America and Restore A Truly CHRISTIAN Nation?
Max, I’m sure you remember the story about Esau’s birthright and a “mess of pottage”.
“WE ARE UNITED BEHIND THE VISIONARY!”
— Elevation Church children’s ministry coloring book
From the article: Platt told the congregation in a sermon in early July that “a small group of people inside and outside this church coordinated a divisive effort to use disinformation in order to persuade others to vote these men down as part of a broader effort to take control of this church.”
Does this mean he didn’t get his way? The “Satanic opposition” (to my personal agenda) is a tiresome defense, and certainly takes away from viable spiritual opposition that exists when the gospel is proclaimed.
You sure about that Max?
John Adams wrote to Jefferson in 1817:
“Oh! Lord! Do you think that a Protestant Popedom is annihilated in America? Do you recollect, or have you ever attended to the ecclesiastical Strifes in Maryland Pensilvania, New York, and every part of New England? What a mercy it is that these People cannot whip and crop, and pillory and roast, as yet in the U.S.! If they could they would.”
~From Brooke Allen’s Moral Minority: Our Skeptical Founding Fathers p-62~
Adams’ diatribe is no less true today than it was in 1817.
If they could, they would.
Ishy mentions it too, these guys (neo-cals) would dearly love to remove the Democracy we all enjoy.
Any opposition against the New Calvinist takeover of a church paid for by others is not Satanic. It’s the right thing to do … sometimes “Pastor” needs to be rebuked. Hundreds (perhaps thousands) of SBC churches should have done that … too late now.
Beware of self-proclaimed visionaries. History records that multitudes have marched behind charismatic visionaries straight into Hell.
We’ve been over this ground before Max.
So long as Minnie McMaster’s fried chicken is featured at the next fellowship hall social, they don’t give a rat’s patootie if Attila the Hun takes over MBC.
Yeah, that fits “traditional” non-Calvinist Southern Baptists who have been complacent about the takeover of SBC and thousands of its churches. As long as you keep the “mess of pottage coming” (fun time, coffee/donuts, fellowship dinners, camps for the kids, etc.), they don’t really give a big whoop about meaningless things like theology. Some say they are simply uninformed or misinformed about Calvinization of their denomination, but Southern Baptists at nearby churches have been willingly ignorant (I know because I warned many of them when the NeoCals came to town to takeover their churches).
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Yes, that was famous for a while.
… or a demon. I’ve often noted that the 80:20 rule applies in most churches … where 80% are doing church, while 20% are the Church.
The spirit of Calvin lives on … over time, it has found different folks to manifest itself in.
As an ex-Southern Baptist (I spent 70+ years in SBC), I worshiped alongside classical Calvinists. I found them to be civil in their discourse and respectful to other expressions of faith. Yep, the “Old” Calvinists are a totally different beast than their aggressive and militant neo-brethren.
Church history records countless groups which fell in the dust because of greed and lust for power. New Calvinism will join them.
And how much damage will they do before they fall?
The National Socialist German Workers Party lasted only 13 years in power (1933-1945).
How much damage did they do before they fell?
Like something out of The Twilight Zone.
Specifically, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/He%27s_Alive
“Where will he go next, this phantom from another time, this resurrected ghost of a previous nightmare – Chicago? Los Angeles? Miami, Florida? Vincennes, Indiana? Syracuse, New York? Anyplace, everyplace… He’s alive… Remember that when he comes to your town. Remember it when you hear his voice speaking out through others… He’s alive because through these things we keep him alive.”
— Rod Serling, closing narration
Samuel Conner,
Jesus would have been arrested if He turned over a table with discounted merchandise.
Even if it’s The Antichrist himself.
On a lighter tone from the pens of the prophet Ursula Vernon:
https://www.deviantart.com/ursulav/art/The-Abyss-Looks-Back-62380479
Max–the old style Calvinists figured God did not need them meddling. If you were predestined to see things their way, you would. But manipulating and “leading” people was verboten. Jesus was Lord, God would call whom He would call, and there was to be no “ax or chisel” on the altar so to speak, so all would know it was a work of God.
Now, under the YRR, the entire trinity is booted from the premises as the programs of man are guaranteed to get the results and do so more quickly.
That sums it up. Consider following the money re. Platt. He apparently is quite well off.
Max,
Do you know how many times I have said to local people who attend Summit that they are Baptist. They denied it vigorously and I had a hard time not laughing.
Cynthia W.,
Steven Furtick has a number of posts with his name mentiond. 🙂
JDV,
Awesome, must read comment!!!!
Ava Aaronson,
Another great comment.
So, how did tthe retroactive covenant/contract do?
I agree. So, what do you think of Andy Davis’ takeover?
Yep
Can you expand on this a bit?
Most people left. But it was the early days and they just recruited a bunch more from Southeastern.
Too bad he didn’t use some of his wealth to keep foreign missionaries on the field while he was head of SBC’s International Mission Board. Instead, he recalled 1,000 veteran missionaries and their families, citing a funding shortage. But at the same time he apparently had no budget to support them, his bud Kevin Ezell over at the North American Mission Board found $60 million per year to plant 1,000 New Calvinist churches annually. If mainline Southern Baptists had been asked how to use limited funds during that period, I’m sure they would have opted to keep foreign missionaries on the field … traditional SBCers prioritize evangelism and missions, while the new boys on the block don’t. To them, it’s all about planting reformed theology, not Gospel churches. Could it be that the recalled missionaries were not the right theological persuasion for the new SBC?
They don’t care what you call them. They are just blessed to have the coolest pastor on the planet!
Purity of Ideology, Comrades.
Purity of Ideology.
Via donors? Quid pro quo?
Didn’t the CT article note the missionary agency he ran didn’t do well financially under his leadership? Terminated many missionaries? Maybe the ones without wealthy donors, that were barely eking along, in this economy? Needed patience and a little help?
Missionaries must raise their own support and find their own donors, then the money flows up. How much overhead admin back home does a missionary really need? When a missionary is “hired”, they find the money for their paycheck AND for their bosses… everyone in that office back home gets paid via the missionaries’ donors who they find themselves.
It looks like this missionary exec cut out the middleman, the missionary, and went directly to a wealthy donor church to have the donors support him. With additional gifting to the Mothership, his BFFs, the org, the brohood, his support network, mob. The $100K gifts you mention secretly going to the org.
IMHO, the org does NOT share vast resources. Money is all bottom up from donors found in local churches. The org is out looking for bodies, buildings, & bucks to support them (“church planting” … grifting).
The only thing the org has to offer top down is their authority shpiel, commands. Money flows up from real working people. Directives flow down, telling them what to do, as “the Lord saith”. “Give” to us, and then “God will bless you”. Really? Says who?
George Muller, Gladys Aylward, and the ten Booms rescued orphans, widows, Holocaust victims. No middleman. No org but 3: Father, Son, Holy Spirit. And those 3 needed NO overhead. Not a penny. Free overhead when guided by the HS.
Cynthia W.,
I had thought Furtick ran a sort of cult with himself as THE central figure to be focused on. I did not know his group was ‘Southern Baptist’. !
Disagree. I think it’s $$$. See my above most recent comment. I think Dee has uncovered something here.
Re ideology: Unless money flowing up to the Mothership is ideology. Success in terms of $$$. Go for all the bucks you can, ends justifying means, because God is a Good Look, for #1 me, above all else.
Watch ideology twist in the wind to facilitate money flow. Up, always flowing up from working people & their businesses to authoritarian admin with their underlings siging NDAs.
Regarding this quote in the OP:
“We understand that God’s purpose for DC and the nations is not just for MBC to grow larger and larger but for hundreds of thousands of churches to make disciples and multiply. That’s why we partner with the North American Mission Board (NAMB)…”
McLean Bible Church is not in DC. Heck, it’s not even in McLean. It is in Vienna, Virginia. Its empire is expanding into the Virginia counties of Arlington, Loudoun, and Prince William, as well as Montgomery County, Maryland.
“DC and the nations” apparently means “well-heeled suburbs away from the heathenish city.”
I’ll try to be brief, since I have shared some of this before. We hired a fresh out of the box Southern Seminary graduate sometime in 2015. He never admitted or even hinted to the search committee that he had (reformed) theological leanings different than our own. Almost immediately, he began fiddling with our covenant and constitution and espousing the benefits of elder-led polity. Then he began giving the deacons several 9-Marks books to read, the most alarming of which was Jonathan Leeman’s book on membership. He also signed our church up to be on 9-Marks’ and TGC’s church search sites without anyone’s approval or knowledge. After we discovered that what he was doing was the textbook tactics of YRR ‘reformers’ sneaking in the back door, the deacons confronted him about it. I begged him to abandon reformed theology, but he wouldn’t. Then he abruptly quit without even a two-week’s notice and left, once he realized we had him figured out. He then had the audacity to tell the congregation on his last Sunday that there were ‘trust issues’ (ya think?!?) Several people at church were totally unaware of everything that had transpired, and some even went off in a huff, thinking that we had ‘chased off the pastor’, which was totally not the case. But his damage was done, and he left the deacons holding the bag and picking up the pieces.
It was ugly, deceptive, and hurtful. And it has happened many times over in countless churches. I know that I, for one, will NEVER view a pastor in the same light again. One of my main purposes for frequently haunting this site is to encourage folks going through stuff like this and to let them know that you’re not alone, that you’re not a paranoid conspiracy theorist, and that it all needs to stop! Thanks again for your continuing work of bringing to light the deeds of darkness!
They must get extra brownie points for this in the New Calvinist kingdom. A successful takeover of a non-Calvinist church must earn them a merit badge of recognition within the inner circle of NeoCal elite. A demonstration of stealth and deception to capture and plunder a non-Calvinist congregation must signal their undying devotion to the Calvinist God.
Thank you.
dee,
Elevation started just a stone’s throw from my house, meeting in the elementary school with a storefront office. It seems almost tacky to pay too much attention now. I used to park in their parking lot on Wednesdays – half-price day at The Salvation Army store. The store closed during the pandemic, unfortunately. Goodwill doesn’t have half-price day!
I wonder how they “understand” that. Is it just a tautology: if MBC grows larger, it must be God’s purpose? What if MBC disbands and all its congregants go to other churches or stay home watching TV? Would that be God’s purpose for “DC and the nations”?
Cynthia W.,
Cynthia W.,
They allude to the seat of power while not poaching members from Capitol Hill Baptist Church.
I don’t know whether to add the /sarc tag.
I think it’s both. New Calvinism is sort of like a multilevel marketing scheme where folks at the pinnacle of the pyramid benefit from those at the bottom. Those at the base of the pyramid are convinced they are selling a good product (reformed theology) and if they sell enough long enough, they climb up the pyramid. All the while, the big boys at the top rake in more money from the efforts of the little guys who are sold on the ideology, because they are promoting the big boys when they sell their theology. The elite enjoy big churches, big salaries, prominent positions, book sales, conference fees, etc. … while the little guys who are convinced that the ideology = one true gospel labor in the field through stealth and deception. They have learned that lying is OK for the good of the movement and is necessary to establish themselves solidly within the pyramid. None of this has anything to do with God or His Son, of course.
“Alas for you, you scribes and Pharisees, play-actors! You scour sea and land to make a single convert, and then you make him twice as ripe for destruction as you are yourselves.” (Matthew 23:15 Phillips)
Southern Baptist missionaries are supported by the denomination via its Cooperative Program (funds from 47,000 churches) and special offerings at Christmas and Easter which bring in millions. Platt cited a funding shortage in church giving during his term as President of SBC’s International Mission Board … but, as I noted in an upstream comment, a sister agency, SBC’s North American Mission Board, had plenty of money to continue planting New Calvinist churches in North America. IMO, Southern Baptists – if given the opportunity – would have redirected available funds to keep foreign missionaries on the field rather than plant more churches … they have 47,000!
*Remember* it? I live next door to it. And thereby hangs a tale. 😀
Friend,
I get the impression that there is very complex status maneuvering going on, but it’s not my milieu, so I don’t have much idea about who the players are or what the game is. Oh, well!
Neither do I. It’s all empire building, though.
I’ve noticed that seems to be the mission field for most churches where the pastors are very intent on growth…
I’ve personally heard Andy Stanley talk about how he founded Northpoint to reach unchurched for Christ. But I guess those unchurched have to be from wealthy areas because Northpoint only plants churches in the richest suburbs…
Cogent to this situation as described.
Max, your Scripture analysis, and Dee’s business background/sense, together illustrate the underbelly of what seems to “empire building” (as “Friend” commented).
IAC, all the $$$s in the non-profit church orgs come from donors, be they humble working class or big business owners. It becomes donors’ earned income spent by the non-profit admin, the top. $$$ flows up. Decisions come down.
Hello again. Just to clarify some things about Calvinists and Reformed Christians.
I know there is something called “New Calvinism” around. Having been a Calvinist for at least 30+ years, there’s obviously some variants going around, especially in the church planting culture.
We Calvinists believe our interpretation of the Bible is right. But we also believe that anyone who has repented of their sins and placed their trust in Christ is a believer – whether they are Calvinist or not.
There’s also a lot of differences within Calvinism itself. On the one hand, there are those who hold to a minimalist Calvinism and believe in God’s sovereignty in salvation (ie predestination). But there are other who also believe in pedobaptism, a presbyterian form of church government, the regulative principle of worship. Some even restrict their singing to acapella psalms only.
In this specific situation – Platt and McLean Bible Church – what I will say is that if a Calvinist pastor hides his Calvinism in order to be employed by a church, and then secretly begins to replace staff and leadership with calvinists, then I would have grave concerns about their personal godliness. A Calvinist pastor should be up front about his beliefs and strategies. Moreover, if a pastor gradually moves into Calvinism, or has any change in his theological understanding, he should be up front and honest with the church and its leaders.
Of course I know only a little about what is going at at MBC. I’m not saying that Platt is guilty of dishonesty. However it does seem that many people here believe that he has. The fact that he is Calvinist is, to me, not the issue, though I do accept in good faith claims made that people within the “New Calvinism” have been ungodly in the way they handle their ministry and strategies.
It sounds to me like you are what we would call here a “classical Calvinist”. Many of us are here at TWW because we’ve seen the devastating effects of the New Calvinist movement firsthand. I was at an SBC seminary and going to a church there that were both “taken over” by the movement, to rather terrible consequences. I personally think New Calvinism and classical Calvinism are fairly different in belief. I also believe New Calvinism operates using cult strategies to keep people from leaving their movement.
Most of what you said is not what the New Calvinists believe. They believe that you are a Christian only if you are “in submission” to one of their churches and doing everything the elders tell you. They do not let people leave their churches without permission and only to other ally churches they have designated, in the case of something like a job transfer. They have even tried to use their covenants like legal contracts to keep people from leaving, in the case of the Village Church. So far, that hasn’t succeeded that we know about.
The seminaries have a class now called “Church Revitalization” which is a blueprint on how to take over churches that don’t want to be taken over. The New Calvinists believe themselves new Genevans reforming the US into a utopia that they control. The Gospel Coalition, which is their main social media arm, used to write a lot about Machavielli and the ends justifying the means. We’ve seen this process of a pastor lying to get into a position over a church over and over and over again, so while it might be new to you, you can go back and read post after post about it here. I personally watched this happen at the church I attended while I was in seminary. He lied about his beliefs, used a bunch of fake joiners from other churches to vote out the staff and put himself in control of the finances, and then tried to initiate a “retroactive” covenant that stipulated members cannot leave, cannot vote, and must commit to attending 4-5 church events a week.
It’s not a secret that Platt is New Calvinist. So it’s likely he is following the methodology of his movement.
I forgot to write about the most important difference, which is that of authority. Most classical Calvinists are members of churches with a governing body (I think they are elected, are they not?). I also have never known a classically Calvinist church to hinder someone from leaving.
New Calvinist leaders believe themselves divinely appointed absolute authorities. In short, they appoint themselves and insist everyone has to obey them without question on everything. There are tons of articles they wrote about this on The Gospel Coalition, 9 Marks, and Acts 29, which are their three main organizations. There’s a bunch of articles here about some of those articles!
There are some Presbyterian churches that are New Calvinist. As far as I know, they are in the most conservative Presbyterian denominations. Mostly, the pastors of this movement avoid taking over churches that have governing bodies, because autonomous churches are 1) easier to take over, and 2) allow them full control over the church.
ishy,
This last post by Ishy is very important. The issue of “authority”, and oversight, is fundamental to any organization, let alone a church… I have yet to see any sound, “Biblical” justification for the New Calvinist authority structure. My understand, and in some cases experiences, with “Classical leaning Calvinist” is that they value INDEPENDENT accountability….
And, unfortunately, serves as an “how to” example to so many young, restless and reformed. Within SBC, he has reached icon status … a cult personality to pattern method and message after.
How would you assess Platt’s views on “superstitious” sinner prayers and trusting/accepting Christ:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4fJSFvqj_A
… which is illegitimate authority within the Body of Christ that needs to be identified and removed. The Church of the Living God, the Kingdom of Heaven on earth in the here and now, is a “Body” with many members … the only Head, the only authority, is Christ. Unfortunately, the authority and influence of Jesus in the institutional church is waning. Mere men who operate with “independent accountability” have supplanted His rule and we (the church) have allowed it.
Max,
Max, that is, unfortunately, an excellent Youtube video, documenting his deceptive preaching……
“When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time.” — #MayaAngelou
Lying to get into position is showing
1. who they are, and
2. who is their father.
This actually comes straight from their theology. They take a lot of their theology about God from the Old Testament, where God is viewed as a dictator who doesn’t really have much compassion on anyone who isn’t part of the fold. Israel was encouraged to go to war to take over other countries and put them “in submission” to Israel. As we discussed earlier, Jesus’ life and ministry is mostly ignored in New Calvinist churches, and only verses that kinda back up their views of predestination, authority, and church membership are used.
Doug Wilson, who dee wrote about recently, wrote his book about how slavery is okay because people like him would be in control. Note, he is also self-appointed. Most New Calvinists aren’t open about this belief, but it is the logical end of their belief system.
To put this in a more personal perspective, in one memorable encounter I had with a New Calvinist seminary student, he told me that because I refused to agree with him about predestination and submit to his authority as a man by agreeing with everything he said, I was evil and therefore deserved to be treated badly by him, the church, and the seminary. And then he claimed I would find a husband to “teach me how to obey” because he “knew God would make sure that happened”.
Well, dude, I never married, and I have no interest in being married, so I don’t think your “god” exists.
Reminds me of “This Time We WILL Achieve True Communism, Because The Right People (guess who?) WILL Be In Control!”
With the addition of “GAWD SAITH!!!!!”
“Teach you how to obey” as in “Woman! Do As I Say Or I Beat You!”?
Up to and including “Honor Killing”?
Yes. The seminary student is showing exactly who he is.
When it becomes “Say The Magic Words Salvation” with accompanying Wretched Urgency and Cram It Down Their Throats (like I experienced during my time in-country), I agree with Platt.
I became a notch on at least half a dozen Bibles that way. No depth, no teaching, no How Should We Then Live, only SahTheSinnersPrayerAndAcceptJesusChristAsYourPersonalLORDandSavior then once they browbeat you into saying the words, they’d notch their Bible for brownie points at the Bema and go on to the next leaving you on your own.
What if Christ agrees 110% with you and hates all the same people you do?
Like some sort of cosmic sock puppet?
Where does Faith end and Superstition begin?
I have never seen a clear dividing line.
One just fades into the other like colors in a spectrum.
Like many things in nature.
“Revitalization” like Comrade Stalin “Liberating” Eastern Europe?
“Today Virginia, TOMORROW THE WORLD!”?
🙂
Semi-serious question: Fried chicken is often mentioned on TWW in relation to church potlucks, etc.. Is fried chicken something that is actually frequently brought to church potlucks? Or is it mostly something intended to convey a basic idea? (I don’t live in the U.S., and I haven’t been to many church events, but from those I attended, I don’t remember fried chicken being all that common….not even a KFC bucket.)
Unfortunately, he is probably a pastor now. Whew! I pity his church members.
If course, God sees the heart, which we don’t. However, we do
observe and experience how we treat each other.
Faith has fruit, which is first and foremost, love. IMHO, the longer we are on the faith journey, the more noticeable the fruit due to the maturation process.
Some pastors appear immature yet on the right track.
Deception, however, is never lack of maturity.
That overall sermon was also a good demonstration of his manufactured passion … with quivering voice, pregnant pause, crying without tears, etc. The young reformers would say it was the Holy Spirit moving him … I say “Nah.”
Headless Unicorn Guy,
HUG, Calvary Chapel and Hal Lindsey sure put you through the wringer. Sorry you experienced that.
Max,
The Holy Spirit would nit contradict scripture as the video shows…
Max,
HUG is not the only one to experience it… I think that”flavor” of Christianity was particularly strong in California “back in the day”….
Fried chicken?? Saw it once at a Methodist pot luck, but I took it. Does that count?
Cannot remember it at any SBC pot lucks. Homemade tortillas, yes, but not fried chicken. Tamales, yes.
In Wesleyan leaning and in Lutheran ones churches in the upper midwest it was always some variation of “tuna hotdish” aka casserole.
In my part of the southern midwest/northernmost part of the south it is various casseroles and soups and stews. Something called chili and something called chili rellenos are served here, but they are neither. People just dump some tortillas from the store, canned green chilis, pulled chicken, and cream of cheddar soup and call it chili rellenos. NOT. What passes for chili here is kidney beans, navy beans, tomatoes, and maybe a hint of chili powder and wave some brown hamburger over the pot. NOT CHILI.
As you may guess, my native state has an official state question: red or green?
That’s why New Calvinists don’t talk much about the Holy Spirit who is available to teach Truth to every believer. They don’t want ANYONE messing with their interpretation of Scripture, not even the Holy Spirit. They don’t want you to know:
“The Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told you” (John 14:26)
New Calvinist theology depends on cherry-picking Scripture and text out of context to support the tenets of their faith (all cults do that). The new reformers camp out in Paul’s epistles and dodge the Gospels like COVID. You will never hear them say “Jesus said …”; the words in red are not in their vocabulary.
I told one SBC-YRR pastor, a church planter in my area: “If you read Paul first, you might miss Jesus. But if you read Jesus first (the Gospels), the writings of Paul come into perspective.” I could tell that this was a foreign thought to him, as he walked away.
It’s literal. Something actually brought to many church potlucks. Though the people I know usually buy it from Kentucky Fried Chicken or Publix (grocery store).
Along with that, common potluck foods include potato salad, three-bean salad, and baked beans.
He has actually left the church completely. I don’t know what happened, but I support it. His parents are still active members of a New Cal church (though that church is much less stringent than others and even has processes for members to leave and oust elders).
Come to think of it, fried chicken does seem to be an animating passion in the US church. Back when I had a hospitality role for our mellow mainline mob, I used to order crates of it for the fall homecoming lunch. We bought our fried chicken from a Muslim-owned restaurant nearby, whose owner truly enjoyed serving local churches. One of my favorite memories is of escorting the delivery crew, young immigrants probably from Pakistan, through our happy throng of hundreds of church folk, singing hosanna, er, “Oh boy, here comes the chicken!”
Friend,
I once visited a church where the pastor’s sermon was admonishing people for not paying attention to the sermon because they were thinking about lunch. He went into a detailed description of the deliciousness of fried chicken. Then he spoke for another 30 minutes and held the service until 12:30.
I didn’t go back to that church…
Below the vid you shared (Platt & superstition), a commentor wrote about “the Gospel of Paul”.
Burwell Stark,
“Does this mean he didn’t get his way? The “Satanic opposition” (to my personal agenda) is a tiresome defense,….”
+++++++++++++++
ha… pastor’s, and their “Satanic!!” meme…
they remind of Toy Story’s Buzz Lightyear…
“My ship! It will takes WEEKS to repair!”, as he inspects the cardboard flap of the box he was packaged in.
“Star Command…come in, Star Command… I’ve crash landed on a strange planet…the terrain seems a bit unstable…”, as he hops up and down on the puffy polyester bedspread.
…warning the toys about his laser (the little lightbulb that blinks)
Max,
“Too bad he didn’t use some of his wealth to keep foreign missionaries on the field while he was head of SBC’s International Mission Board.
Instead, he recalled 1,000 veteran missionaries and their families, citing a funding shortage. But at the same time…$60 million per year to plant 1,000 New Calvinist churches annually.”
++++++++++++++
David Platt reminds me of a politician grandstanding with a policy decision in a quid pro quo thing, completely oblivious and apathetic to the fall out experienced by the human beings at ground zero.
Not meaning to sound sarcastic (or otherwise offensive)….
I wonder what might’ve happened if the pastor had spontaneously pivoted his sermon and spoken of Jesus, fish, and loaves…
Hopefully, he became disillusioned with the aberrant belief and practice of New Calvinism. A lot of these young pastors usually become weary and quit after a few years of trying to justify teaching/preaching what they no longer believe.
Cynthia W.,
“if MBC grows larger, it must be God’s purpose? What if MBC disbands and all its congregants go to other churches or stay home watching TV? Would that be God’s purpose for “DC and the nations”?”
++++++++++++++
no, the evil emperor Zurg attacked with his ion blaster, having fired several fatal rounds of ping pong balls.
ishy,
Thanks, Ishy….I didn’t want to make any assumptions.
And pickles…. 🙂
Friend,
🙂
And lasagna from Sam’s … I got so sick of that! The best potlucks are at rural SBC churches, where the country ladies try to outdo each other with the dish they bring (Sister Sue’s awesome macaroni salad, Sister Ruth’s famous pecan pie, etc.). For years, that’s the only reason I went to church 🙂
Wisely!
Max, that is very sad. I might credit that man’s lapse of focus on Christ as the lens by which to understand sacred Scripture as fall-out from Patterson’s changing of the Baptist Faith & Message 2K;
but it is still so sad because the man is/was a pastor.
Max,
Best one I went to had a giant cauldron of Brunswick stew. We were asked to bring sides and desserts.
A man in our church used to bake excellent lemon bars for coffee hour. When a “queen bee” accused him of buying the lemon bars, he gasped and replied, “Why, I just picked the lemons from the tree in my atrium yesterday morning!”
Queen bee fell all over herself apologizing.
Gentleman gravely accepted her apology.
After she scuttled away, the gentleman told me which store sells the best lemon curd.
My grandson calls the biscuits and gravy I make for him during his stays here “Papaw’s World Famous Biscuits & Gravy” … I also make a killer Breakfast Pie and Raisin Bread … not to mention deep-fried crappie fillets and hush puppies. It’s my potluck legacy, I suppose.
elastigirl,
I think my teenagers watched that movie.
Good for you! You don’t play around with people when it comes to fried chicken! In fact, I could eat a mess of it right now! Y’all are starving me to death. Not sure what it all has to do with David Platt and his sneaky ways, but I know that our former YRR pastor curtailed many of our fellowships so that they wouldn’t, as he said, “distract from the gospel”! My Gospel isn’t distracted by chicken…in fact, Jesus often used food as an object lesson!
Enjoy while ya’ can, before all ya’ can get is Soylent Green.
At my small Lutheran Church, a tortilla steamer and the fixins for tacos is always a big hit (in addition to the dishes you just mentioned).
Muff Potter,
YUM!
I’m hungry now, too… LOL
“Instead of starting from scratch, meeting in school auditoriums and such, they should try to *takeover* churches that had the infrastructure in place.”
Politicians, oops, pastors, that is, competing for dollars, oops again, donors.
When the church runs on $$$.
For context, my oldest is getting evaluated for ADHD, so I’ve been reading a lot about it that’s geared towards parents, and am totally NOT an expert.
I’ve been really struck by how much of the (evidence-based) parenting advice is antithetical to the parenting advice espoused by a couple of former authoritarian churches (parenting advice that I realized pretty early was NOT working for this particular child).
Church – parent is boss and makes all decisions to be obeyed instantly without question, a child saying or implying “no” is rebellion that must be punished, fathers pretty much only encouraged to be a paycheck and a disciplinarian, for example.
ADHD parenting advice – get involved in their lives and interests (BOTH parents), collaborate with them in age-appropriate ways and with age-appropriate guardrails to find solutions to problems, let them preserve their autonomy in age-appropriate ways, for example.
Anyway, as I’m reading all of this, I’m really struck with the question, what kind of parenting does God practice with us? I personally don’t see God as a dictator (generally speaking) in Scripture. I mean, Moses talked him into changing his mind about giving up on the Israelites somewhere in the wilderness. And he gives chance after chance after chance to the nation of Israel in the OT. And I certainly never see Jesus strong-arming anyone into following him. And speaking of Jesus, what is God coming down and wearing human flesh if it’s not coming down to our level and getting involved in our lives in a very personal, intimate way? Or being in-dwelled by the Holy Spirit?
So, yes. Don’t know where I’m going with this, but it’s been an interesting thought process.
Max,
I grew up on the west coast, but my great-grandma was a transplant from the backwoods of the Ozarks. You are bringing back memories of her home-cooking. She never followed a recipe (being illiterate), but a couple of my sisters managed to recreate her dried fruit fried pies. If I may mis-quote someone famous (C.S. Lewis?), “Fried pies are proof that God loves us.”
With me it wasn’t Calvary Chapel (that was Muff).
Mine was an independent splinter church called “Koinonia Hous Christian Fellowship” in the mid-Seventies. An off-on-a-tangent descendant of the Jesus People movement. I place it somewhere in the middle of the evolutionary sequence between the original JP movement and the later, more organized Calvary Chapel.
Koinonia had no single leader figure (like Chuck Smith) unless you count an absentee Hal Lindsay. Its visible leadership was a group of twentysomething “Elders” (bad sign right there) who proved that Groupthink can be just as demanding a cult leader as any physical Anointed Fuehrer.
Doctrine was Born Again Fundy, Sola SCRIPTURA (with Lindsay’s bestseller included), High Controlling, Multiple Degress of Separation from The Heathen, Rapture Ready. Had their own Cult Compounds in a couple WW1 vintage Craftsman houses in an older section of Whittier. (And one later single-story fourplex in a now-forgotten location where they’d connected the four units into one by knocking man-sized holes through connecting closet walls.)
This was some 45 years ago, so my memory is a bit foggy. What pulled me out of there (while being love-bombed to move in with them) was attending my first SF Litcon (NASFIC 75) and discovering Dungeons & Dragons. That provided a connection that was like going over the Berlin Wall to the West.
Actor playing a role, even crying on cue.
And you DO know the Koine Greek word for that, don’t you Max?
What the PTL guy did, and the money poured in.
As far as the “Sinner’s prayer” is concerned… I believe that all prayer should be a conscious and sincere speaking from a person to God. If an unbeliever prays the sinners prayer – which is an expression of repentance of sins and faith in Christ as saviour – then they become a Christian. But only if the prayer is genuine and consciously prayed. A mere repetition of the prayer without engaging the conscious mind is not a true prayer.
By the way, I am from Australia, not the USA. The major mover of Reformed Evangelicalism in Australia is the Presbyterian Church of Australia and the Anglican Diocese of Sydney. There are Reformed Baptists within the Baptist Union but they are a minor player both in their denomination and within Australian evangelicalism.
Any relationship with Chuck Missler?
I think many of these authoritarians want to be authoritarian, so they’ve created a god in their image. They can’t imagine a world where they are not in tight control so they have to make up a god who would allow that.
It’s not exclusive to the US.
https://www.cwmf.org.au/cetf-magazines/an-introduction-to-new-calvinism
That is exactly how I found TWW. I had never paid much attention to Calvinism or Reformed theology, but in hindsight I can see how much I have been impacted by them over the last 30+ years. It became a crisis for me when my sons got steamrolled in college through a SBC church college ministry. And around the same time, the SBC church I used to attend started drifting with the stream of New Calvinism, but I did not realize that until later (and after one of the young elders thought he could drag me through the church discipline process).
I was initially wary of TWW, but the site kept coming up in searches, so I started to follow and then started commenting not much later. It’s been a good forum for processing the impacts of the New-Calvinist movement. Every now and then the conversations take a sour turn, but they don’t last long and the TWW community tends to get things back on track.
New-Calvinism causes unspeakable damage. My sons recovered from it in different ways, but the effects on them, my wife, and me linger like long-haul COVID. Some days are better than others.
I especially noted the phrase “nurturing a culture of church-planting and revitalisation” in that article.
The article is by a British theologian, I should note, but goes over a little of the start of the movement in Australia.
TGC is the clearing house for New Calvinism. TGC Australia has its own site: https://au.thegospelcoalition.org/
With a guaranteed income. Maybe even a livable income+++. Good Look, for the Gospel, of course.
Starting to get the picture of why Max says these new guys are not real fanboyz of Jesus. Jesus did not have a Good Look, we are told in Scripture. At the Cross, he even probably appeared to be a loser. Grand loser. How looks deceive us.
Our ancestors recount the days when being a pastor was not so lucrative. A senior woman at church tells of her farmer grandfather being a circuit preacher to small towns on the weekends. A small town’s community center was a dance hall on Saturday night, and a place of worship on Sunday morning. No overhead. No staff. No salary. No expense account. No building. Grandpa farmer-preacher would take off across the countryside on horseback on Sundays. Collections at “church” were all used to help out the needy families in “church”.
That. (And whether or not the prayer is public….)
Some time ago, I stopped saying grace before supper, not because I wasn’t thankful for the food I was eating, but because the prayers were too formulaic (each parent had a different prayer, and there was a “longer” version that was used for holidays like Christmas and Easter). I was saying the same rote before-supper prayers from when I was a child….
That. (And in many cases, only God knows the difference….)
And I’ve gotten a lot from following your thought process. 🙂
I wonder if part of the difference in styles has to do with knowledge about, and / or acceptance of, and / or terminology used in relation to ADD / ADHD.
I remember reading some bad secular sources that suggested using a similar parenting style to that you describe with the church.
Well, gird up your loins! New Calvinism is coming to a church near you! Once the new reformers lie their way into pulpits there, Australian Calvinism will never be the same.
Meant to write “that which you describe”
And all Wartburgers shouted AMEN!! (or should have)
I have fond memories of Mom’s fried peach pie with two scoops of vanilla ice cream … while sitting in the porch swing on a hot summer’s evening singing Gospel songs … pure heaven.
Yup… that about sums it up……. as I have said many times, the longer I live, and the more I experience, the more I realize how little I really understand and know… the more I realize how complex the physical universe is, the more I appreciate the “limited view” scriptures gives of the spiritual world….. so, correspondingly, the more I do not respect “authoritarians”… or, the type that “have all the answers, and of course THEIR answers are the correct ones!
As I recall, those green cookies will start appearing in 2022.
You won’t find a cross on the wall behind the pulpit or an American flag for the same reason. Truth is, it’s the YRR pastors who are distracting the church from the Gospel.
Wild Honey,
“her dried fruit fried pies”
+++++++++++++
wow – that sounds interesting!
Interesting comments. Thank you to those who have let me know your opinions here.
For what it’s worth, if being a “New Calvinist” means associating yourself with TGC or people like Don Carson, then I must be a New Calvinist. There’s no real delineation here in Australia between new and old Calvinism.
As a Calvinist, I certainly hope and pray that the local non-Calvinist baptist church becomes Calvinist. This is not because they’re somehow enemies of the gospel, but because we calvinists see biblical truth as important. So, for us, if a church becomes more biblical in its preaching and actions, then it must also begin to embrace calvinism.
By the way, I hate the word “Calvinist”. I’m only using it here because it is necessary. I prefer to be called “Reformed”.
I occasionally read some of the articles from the Australian TGC site. I even know some of the authors personally. None of those guys would support a hostile takeover of a church as far as I know.
So am I part of the “New Calvinism” which people here have spoken of?
Or, maybe, the “New Calvinism” has some worrying aspects and practices to it that need to be addressed – things that aren’t necessarily present or practiced everywhere by those who fit into the category.
So I will in good faith accept the comments here about instances of spiritual abuse within the New Calvinist movement. I will not, however, accept the idea that it is a monolithic agency whereby all its proponents spiritually abuse.
In my own life I was spiritually abused by Charismatic Christians who were running a Christian school. Their actions ruined my career as a teacher and brought about many years of depression and health problems. But this does not mean that I view all Charismatic Christians as spiritual abusers, and nor does it mean that I see non-Charismatic Christians as guaranteed non-abusers.
One name I see popping up often in some of the links provided has been Mark Driscoll. Apparently he is a “New Calvinist”. He may be, but to me is someone whose ungodliness disqualified him from ministry. Someone like Driscoll should never have been in ministry in the first place. I also know of a few leaders in Australia who could be called “New Calvinists” whose actions disqualify them from ministry. This is a problem that needs to be addressed, but I don’t see it as an endemic problem all over the movement.
By the way, you should be able to assess my “New Calvinist” credentials by what I preach. This is me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIb96xZlql0
Wild Honey,
Attributed to Benjamin Franklin, I believe.
In my own experience, this is a common mark of New-Calvinsts, and perhaps old Calvinists as well. New-Calvinists tend to insist that Calvinism is the only correct view of the scriptures, and anything other the Calvinism is either counterfeit, sub-standard, heretical/erroneous, Pelagianistic (semi or otherwise), rebellious, or worse. When I started investigating Calvinism I also dug deeper into church history and the writings of the patristics. It turns out that Calvinism is only a few hundred years old. With the exception of Augustine, it is hard to find Calvinistic teachings before the reformation. So if Calvinism is true, there was no real Christianity until the reformers discovered it. Does that make sense? John Calvin was one of the few reformers who had familiarity with the writings of the patristics. On the topic of free will, he acknowledged that Augustine stood alone, and he rejected the writings of all the other as wrong, but without providing evidence or rational. There are many sources for the writings of the patristics. This one in a good summary of what they believed about free will. It also includes Calvin’s quotes on what he thought of the patristics.
https://orthodoxbridge.com/2013/11/10/calvin-dissing-the-fathers/
He indeed was one of the big names early in the movement, but he bailed on it and now appears to be charismatic. In the same way that no single drop or bucket of rain is responsible for the flood, it is hard to blame any particular person or ministry for New-Calvinism. But that does not mean there is no flood damage. Some of the major ministries associated with it are TGC, 9Marks, Acts29, Sovereign Grace Ministries/Church, Ligonier, RTS, the SBC seminaries, GTY, and Desiring God.
Both words are difficult to define precisely because within both there are some wide varieties of belief, such as four-point or seven-point Calvinists. “Reformed” includes both Calvinists and Arminians since Jacob Arminius was Dutch Reformed. It’s common for various Calvinists to say others Calvinists are not true Calvinists, which gets into the No True Scotsman fallacy.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
“Following the biblical authors were the early church fathers—men like Clement of Rome, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Athanasius, Augustine, and Jerome. They taught the doctrines of grace, believing they were written in Scripture. After these men came many shining lights in the Dark Ages—faithful servants such as Gallus, Gottschalk, Peter Waldo, Anselm, and Thomas of Bradwardine. Then, before the dawning of the Reformation, there were such notable forerunners as John Wycliffe, John Hus, Savonarola, and William Tyndale. All these men trumpeted the doctrines of sovereign grace.” (Steven J Lawson, ‘Foundations of Grace: 1400bc-100ad)
Well, if you read the whole thing including comments you’ll find this gem fromPrometheus – “I think that to say that Calvin was “dissing” the fathers is a bit strong. He held strongly to the doctrine of sola scriptura, and if the fathers disagreed with scriptures, he felt a clear need to hold to scriptures. His feelings on this subject are clear when he says, “For although we hold that the Word of God alone lies beyond the sphere of our judgment, and that Fathers and Councils are of authority only in so far as they accord with the rule of the Word, we still give to Councils and Fathers such rank and honor as it is meet for them to hold under Christ.” A Reformation Debate: Calvin/Sadoleto edited by Olin, p.92”
Lowlandseer,
One last point. In his dedication of the Institutes to King Francis 1 of France, he writes -“Moreover, they unjustly set the ancient fathers against us (I mean the ancient writers of a better age of the church) as if in them they had supporters of their own impiety. If the contest were to be determined by patristic authority, the tide of victory—to put it very modestly—would turn to our side. Now, these fathers have written many wise and excellent things. Still, what commonly happens to men has befallen them too, in some instances. For these so-called pious children of theirs, with all their sharpness of wit and judgment and spirit, worship only the faults and errors of the fathers. The good things that these fathers have written they either do not notice, or misrepresent or pervert. You might say that their only care is to gather dung amid gold. Then, with a frightful to-do, they overwhelm us as despisers and adversaries of the fathers! But we do not despise them; in fact, if it were to our present purpose, I could with no trouble at all prove that the greater part of what we are saying today meets their approval.”
And I should point out that I am a true Scotsman. 🙂
This is a point often lost in the “Calvin” discussion. The Reformation was a 16th century movement of those protesting abuse of Roman Catholicism, which lead to the establishment of “Protest”ant churches, of both Calvinist and non-Calvinist theology. There were many children of the Reformation, many Protestants.
While there are several threads of New Calvinism, with varying prominent personalities, John Piper is often referred to as the “Father of New Calvinism.” In the early days, leaders ranged from the suit guys (Piper, Keller, Mohler, etc.) to the spiky haired bunch (Driscoll, etc.). You often saw them sharing the same stage at conferences … they only got along with each other for the good of the movement.
As an ex-Southern Baptist (for 70+ years), I can tell you that stealth and deception by young reformers who takeover traditional non-Calvinist churches are quite common modus operandi. Much has been written about this practice in the blogosphere … many of those of comment on TWW have been directly impacted by such deception. Should lying “endemic” of the movement to assume pulpits in order to harvest churches and their resources for the good of the NeoCal movement be considered disqualifying for ministry?
Hi Ken, good to see you back on the forum.
For this post, it’s less to do with doctrine and more to do with deception.
If I go to a church, it’s imperative that church aligns with my belief system. What seems to happen is leadership decides for the congregation without informing the congregation.
This is wrong regardless of the denomination.
It appears that the leadership was counting on the culture of compliance to align the church with the SBC.
From what I’ve read in other sources, the opposition appears to have some ideas that Platt is trying to sell church property to Muslims or some weird thing.
This may be a case of there being no good guys in this scenario.
Didn’t you see the same dynamic with the Communists of the last century?
The perpetual Purge of Counter-Revolutionary Enemies Among Us, like a continuous smelling-out of Witches.
Which just kicks the fight to another level:
“HOW DO YOU KNOW YOU PRAYED IT FOR REAL? THAT YOU DIDN’T JUST MOUTH A VAIN REPETITION LIKE THE HEATHEN?? ARE YOU SURE??? ARE YOU CERTAIN YOU’RE SURE???? ARE YOU SURE YOU’RE CERTAIN YOU’RE SURE????? ARE YOU CERTAIN YOU’RE SURE YOU’RE CERTAIN YOU’RE SURE??????”
As well as yet another opportunity for Spiritual One-Upmanship:
“WHEN I WAS SAVED, I PRAYED IT GENUINELY AND CONSCIOUSLY – DID YOU?”
Which the PTL guy is still doing with his Armageddon Survival Buckets and Silver Solution COVID Cure.
And in the French revolution. The people initially sending people to the guillotines ended up being sent there themeselves by the more pure revolutionaries that followed them.
I don’t know how to graciously reply to such a blantantly false assertion. If Lawson wrote this, he is either incompetent or lying. I have read quite a lot of the writings of the patristics and have found nothing even close to the doctrines of grace in their writings. The only way one can get there is to pusposefully take fragments of their writings out of context to make them sound like they taught things they didn’t. My first exposure to the patristics was almost 30 years ago through a Muslim book titled “Jesus: Prophet of Islam.” It quoted the patristics out of context to prove that Jesus was only human and not divine. It took very little fact checking to see the deception. I had the same experience when I read the Calvinist book “Pierced for Our Transgressions.” Lawson appears to be pulling the same trick. Calvinists would be much more honest to admit, like Calvin did, that the patristics did not teach these things. Otherwise it makes Calvinists look like liars.
I agree. I was attmpting to answer OSO’s questions about New-Calvinism. Deception appears to be a virtue among New-Calvinist ranks, but they would never admit this.
Is it possible (in all seriousness) to define ‘Grace’ without 3000 words of gobbledygook?
I mean it’s a doctrine that pervades all of Christendom to one degree or another.
So what is it?
True. I happened to encounter it primarily in church, but I’m sure it’s not unique to certain circles of Christendom.
What struck me after watching a seminar geared toward parents of ADD/ADHD kids was how much of the advice was just good parenting advice (IMO) in general, and didn’t have to be specific to neuro-diverse families. And it’s not necessarily new advice, either. Much of it echoes general themes in “Hints on Child Training” by H. C. Trumbull, which was written sometime in the 19th century.
Cynthia W.,
Thank you!
elastigirl,
If you’re up for an adventure: https://www.allrecipes.com/recipe/15814/apricot-and-peach-fried-pies/
Peach is the best filling, but apricot is an acceptable substitute if you can’t find dried peaches (my local grocery store only started carrying them a few years ago).
My grandpa, who grew up on these, says you can also make a chocolate filling with a pat or two of butter, a sprinkle of baking cocoa powder, and a sprinkle of sugar. Also tasty, but the filling tends to leak when frying if the pastry edges aren’t sealed tightly.
Before the New Calvinists showed up in SBC with grace-this and grace-that, Southern Baptists referred to Grace as the “unmerited favor” of God.
“We (everyone everywhere) have access by faith into this grace (unmerited favor) wherein we firmly and securely stand” (Romans 5:2)
Access by Calvinism? Arminianism? AnyOtherism? Nah, only by faith.
Which I take it, is an incontrovertible ‘proof’ of the doctrine of Penal Substitutionary Atonement?
Platt followed 9Mark Dever’s playbook, in refusing to graciously accept losing a congregational vote on his elder picks: both scheduled a do-over vote with same nominees, and scolded congregants into submission.
Aspiring 9Marksists who attend Dever’s ‘Weekenders’ learn how he got around a 1990s congregational vote against his initial Elder selections. One of Dever’s guys got only 65%, and none got to the 75% approval required by Dever’s newly-enacted church constitution.
Check out his tactics/antics addressing the congregation after they failed to give him the required 75% vote on his Elders:
[from 9Marks Weekender training materials]
(all this went down about the time that Dever’s mentor Roy Clements was visiting from England on a sabbatical, hence the reference to Eden Baptist Church, Cambridge)
9Mark Dever: “Is it arrogant of me to nominate the same five again?…I do not understand this to be a matter of arrogance, but of integrity.”
“Why vote on the same thing again?…Because we need elders…Because there must be a new election, therefore men must again be nominated. But the one [me] who must nominate has not changed…God has led me again to the same people.”
“The Bible no where requires 75%. Roy Clements and others advised against it.”
“We must let leaders lead…When I was a member at Eden, I voted with the eldership, unless I had expressly biblical reasons for not doing so.”
“I have certainly been frustrated by not being more trusted”
“Each member of the church should consider if they are making it easier or harder for the staff to do what God has called them here to do.”
“Me leaving…find another pastor…[This is] a confidence vote on my pastorate.”
[Tells members they need to individually meet with him if they intend to vote “no” again]
Dever’s tactics/antics worked…he got his way:
One month later, his Elders nominations passed on second try.
[CHBC’s Constitution has since been changed: it’s now a 2/3 vote instead of 3/4!]
Sounds like you’ve already read it.
A young reformer in my area (who lied his way past the pastor search committee re: his theological persuasion) lost a congregational vote to change church governance to elder-rule … so he recruited enough new members from a neighboring New Calvinist church to swing the vote his way on a second attempt … which resulted in a church split, with the young pastor capturing the church and its resources for the movement. I guess these youngsters learn how to do this stuff watching their icons (Platt, Dever, etc.).
Isn’t it true that no true Scotsman would claim to be a true Scotsman? 🙂
Like the Rajneeshees’ knock-and-drag bus ministry as far south as Redding, scooping up the local homeless to swell their numbers and voting bloc for the takeover elections.
First les Hebertists by les Dantonists, then les Dantonists by les Jacobins, then les Jacobins by les Thermidorois.
And at the end of it all, Napoleon appeared with a mop in one hand and sword in the other to clean up the mess.
The French Revolution set the pattern for the next 200 years (from Paris to Phnom Penh), until Gorbachev’s Warsaw Pact Fire Sale shifted the pattern back to more the American model. Lenin deliberately based the First Russian Revolution on the French model, and his Bolsheviki on Robespierre’s Jacobins.
My source for this is an unreliable narrator (Nesfa Williams, the QAnon of her day), but there were also “British Jacobins”, rich kids from aristocrat Brit families, who cheered on La Revolution from the safety of across the Channel.
Ken (aka Tweed),
Headless Unicorn Guy,
To this day I am a fan of Dickens’ A Tale of Two Cities.
Not only is the historical backdrop well worth it, but also Dickens’ penetrating insight on what it means to be human.
And still, the political parties in power, in most countries.
Anyone that thinks “submit” means be lorded over, has decided to adopt wrong doctrine. The OT which Jesus came to fulfil, is very egalitarian. Let’s try Jeremiah (critique of the Josiah revival). When abominations of desolation have been set up (not a lugubrious, not a momentous, not a superstitious phrase when referring to all these routine ones) don’t go down into the house (denomination or congregation), put your sacrifice (routine church duties) outside the doorstep and find some brothers to be in communion with, and it’s precarious if you are trying to evangelise / disciple people at the time (and those who are praying for that) (that’s in addition to greater meanings of these passages of course).
Real version of submit = converse and compare insights expecting the next person to treat you as an equal. Roman spouses didn’t talk, hence some wives were asking basic questions during assembly that their husbands should have been willing to face (“the women” = demonstrative tense in Greek, unlike French: “the” ones that had been mentioned in a previous letter – and “the” ones with the “hair” had been doing something particularly intense towards those around them).
Scriptures have more than one application. Every time you say, no, these people’s doctrine is alright (and I’m not talking about brand names), I shall prove to you that you’ll not be free if you adopt the same ones as they do. They always justify their behaviours on doctrinal grounds, so why wouldn’t we query doctrines? II Timothy needs to be read as a whole (and in conjunction with your margin / central channel references): we are to stop listening to the Philetuses and Hymenaeuses who are everywhere.
Catholic Gate-Crasher,
In 1946 Pius XII (aided by the Paul VI to be) entrusted our pastoral care to the then-American cartels (like JP II and successors, trying to weaponise the kingdom of this world against the Cheshire cat-like Bolsheviks *). Influential people should be more cautious how they sprinkle the name of God.
{ * I know from a 28 year span in the church within the church, with its deniable “governance”, what a pincer movement looks like, from the inside }
The Christian life doesn’t end when you “give your life to Jesus” and if they didn’t explain to you a LOT about how to count the good cost and what providential perseverance is going to look like, you should back out of that false deal and don’t let them guilt trip you.
Among the ones Jesus will reward are those who say “I’m not sure whether I believe in You because I smelt a rat when they claimed they were telling me about You”.
When we are in front of Him the deceived will get the chance to ask their deceivers tough questions.
Wild Honey,
Neat! Thanks! Never occurred to me to use dried fruit like this.
I’ve wondered for a while why the option to melt shortening…. Does it perform better than oil? Much easier to just pour oil from a bottle.
Anyone know?
Jerome,
Why can’t those guys just admit up-front that they don’t want a Democracy, and that they want a Dictatorship?
Muff Potter,
‘Grace’ …So what is it?“
++++++++++++++
Indeed.
I can think of a few definitions:
a box of God-tinker toys to make all kinds of contraptions to invent a religion with;
that thing that happens all over the world every day when someone responds with generosity of kindness snd patience whether deserved or not.
When I make pie dough, I use a 1:1 mixture of butter and shortening… never tried oil. Shortening supposedly makes for lighter pastries, but the world has a lot of pastries made with oil too.
Apart from texture, the other variables to consider between oil and shortening are flavor and smoking point. For making the dough, my wild guess is that you could use canola or unflavored vegetable oil. For the frying, maybe use an oil with a higher smoking point (peanut oil if it’s available at a good price and no one has an allergy).
Gerrymandering, politics, “church”? Pastors or warlords?
“capturing the church and its resources for the movement*.”
… for the money. The ideology is money. The “theology” is Be in Control for the money. Pastoring today is about building a dynasty, nothing less.
A friend in the Portland suburbs said yesterday that they had a difficult time finding a pastor for their little church as among Presbyterians there is a shortage. It’s a shortage of pastors who are willing to do what was once normal, pastor a little church for a livable wage, not a dynasty.
“Men of warped minds who have lost their real hold on the truth but hope to make some profit out of the Christian religion” (1 Timothy 6:5 Phillips)
As a former member of MBC who knew some of the previous pastors pretty well, let me just say that what’s going on at MBC doesn’t have anything to do with the New Calvinist takeover stuff, nor is it about the SBC trying to takeover a big church flush with cash.
In Lon’s later years, he himself was moving in a reformedish direction, influenced by guys like MacArthur and Piper. While he was once adamantly anti-Calvinist, he changed over the years (which is a good thing, in my book). McLean has a lot of ties to Dallas Theological Seminary, which is dispensational but still Calvinist friendly.
As I understand it, when Lon announced his intention to retire, he intended to remain involved, preaching several times a year as pastor emeritus. He wanted Platt, as a young gifted expositor to take the reigns. Platt’s commitment to missions combined with a large church in the city with the most nationalities in the world represented was seen as a great opportunity to change the world for Christ. I do believe that was everyone’s primary intention with the initial arrangements: Platt’s, Lon’s, and the elders of MBC.
But shortly after Platt arrived, Lon was on the outs. I don’t know why or how, but he hasn’t been back since his retirement sermon. That’s a good question to ask Platt and the current elders, because I doubt Lon would do or say anything to hurt the church he loves, NDA or not.
This whole split is about politics. McLean has always been conservative, theologically and politically. Several Bush 43 and Trump cabinet members and senior white house officials were active members of McLean. Lon was on the board of Jews for Jesus, and the church is a huge supporter of Israel. The long time members were deeply troubled at the way Platt brought his never-Trump ethos to some of his sermons, particularly on topics like immigration, and more recently on race. Wokism has been invading young DC churches since 2016, even the young Calvinist churches. It’s happening in a lot of the big cities (looking at you Matt Chandler). The George floyd incident was a breaking point, and pastors like Platt embraced the moment as a chance to embrace a lot of the social justice/progressive/marxist language in how they process race and immigration. And long term members of McLean wanted nothing to do with it. They see it as a hostile takeover not of Calvinist theology, but of Marxist activism. McLean would be very happy with John MacArthur’s theology. But only the young members that Platt’s celebrity and woke-friendly messages have attracted are pleased with the direction of McLean now.
Grandma used lard only. Best pies ever. 😉
Like many other things, lard has changed in our lifetime. The recommended kind is leaf lard. Other types can taste rancid. If I went to the trouble to bake a pie and it turned out rancid, I would CRY ALL DAY.
Friend,
“Peach and Apricot Fried Pies
…Place oil or shortening in small high-sided skillet. Place over medium heat.”
++++++++++++++++
So, like, when it comes to frying something, why the option to melt shortening for frying?
do you know if it performs better? or is it just if there’s no oil on hand but one has shortening on their shelf instead?
Seems like an extra effort and more expensive.
but, when cooking, why not shoot for the moon? if that means melting shortening, then okay!
Indeed!! Lard was/is the secret ingredient used by cooks in the South for great pies. My mother and grandmothers had 5-gallon containers sitting on a stool in a kitchen corner to dip from. Bacon grease was also slipped into lots of dishes to enhance the flavor. Cooks in my family still consider these items basic food groups … even though they might violate the food pyramid!
When, why did you leave?
Where did you land, (if I may)?
I have no idea, but my grandmother’s kitchen always had a five-pound tub of shortening. Although lots of cooks today scorn shortening, it does have a neutral flavor.
I believe shortening is a saturated fat; a lot of oils are more healthful. For a special occasion, I would be more concerned about the results than about the type of fat.
True, not just at MBC, but churches can go that route, in general, from the NT (Paul’s vs Peter’s, etc.) to now.
Your comment, (thx for it), mentions many names we know. As soon as our spiritual-yet-still-in-this-world journey becomes about someone, anyone, other than Jesus, we’re off the trail.
You also note a number of “isms”. Again, only Jesus-ism for me, personally.
If I may add a quote of Frederick Buechner (not always a fan of his either) that expresses this well:
“Principles [and isms and leaders] are what people have instead of God. To be a Christian means among other things to be willing if necessary to sacrifice even your highest principles for God’s or your neighbor’s sake the way a Christian pacifist must be willing to pick up a baseball bat if there’s no other way to stop a man from savagely beating a child. Jesus didn’t forgive his executioners on principle but because in some unimaginable way he was able to love them. ‘Principle’ is an even duller word than ‘Religion’.”
The Along-for-the-Ride folks split the church ‘cuz, well, they’re along for the ride of a particular ism or leader, not Jesus. Their banner or guy was no longer featured, and that’s about as deep as it goes for them. Love is neither a banner nor a guy on stage.
Love God, love neighbor as self. (Not love principle, principal, party. God’s love is far more complex than principles, principals, & parties.)
I’m pretty sure it’s to keep the finished product from getting oily at room temperature. Like the way oil separates in natural peanut if not refrigerated.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
ah-so! of course. sounds like you have some kitchen/cooking acumen.
I really don’t know, sorry! Great-grandma fried her pies in Crisco, and I’ve not bothered trying anything else 🙂
Good answer.
Christianity does not have a corner on the market for goodness toward fellow human beings.
I’ve seen this behavior many times outside of ‘Christian’ circles.
Muff Potter,
any bit of traveling and one encounters majestic human beings demonstrating genuine selfless kindness to strangers everywhere. All of us, from every tribe & creed — chips off the God block.
grace is recognizable in creation DNA just like hope is in every sunrise. (and, to me, just like “I will never leave you nor forsake you” is in every moonrise).
I can survive in the kitchen if I have to. I don’t remember where I first learned about why hydrogenated oils are used in foods that need the oils to stay solid at room temperature (like cookies). My wife is a foodie with an incredible ability to create culinary masterpieces – even her basic meals are amazing. She said animal fats also bring flavors to foods that vegetable fats cannot mimic.
I have tried multiple “healthy” diets over the years, but keep coming back to what my mother and grandmothers ate. All raised big families and lived long lives eating stuff that food “experts” warn about now. And my mother was a dietician!!
I heard a fellow on a TV food show say “Eat food. Not much. Mostly plants.” … but then he went on to say “Eat what your grandma ate” in reference to steering clear of processed foods. So I opted for the latter: “Eat meat & homegrown vegetables. Lots of it. Mostly fried.” And I’ve lived long enough to aggravate New Calvinists on TWW.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
“My wife is a foodie with an incredible ability to create culinary masterpieces – even her basic meals are amazing.”
+++++++++++++++++++
i’d love to hang out with her while she cooks and observe and chat.
It’s quite nice. She is from Europe and therefore and cooks many different styles, with lots of olive oil. She also works to eliminate as many unnatural things from the food because our food supply is so inundated with pesticides, herbicides, additives, and unhealthily raised animals. I am amazed with what she can do with a box from Misfits or things she finds at a farmer’s market. She can turn any vegatable or cut of meat into a delicacy. I am very spoiled.
I have always believed that. The churches that I have attended always taught that to be the case. That is why I get upset when some pastors get all aflutter regarding a sinner’s prayer. For some, it is an outward expression of an inner reality. My own conversion experience is one that is unusual. It was simply “I believe.” And God took care of the rest, including my understanding of my sins from which I was repenting.
That is exactly what my wife has been doing lately. She has been looking for how our ancestors ate, which includes things like bone broth (she makes her own), seasonal vegatables, real butter from healthy cows, etc. Her soups are incredible. I’m still at my college wright after 30 years of marriage, so it seems to be working.
Josh,
Great comment. Thank you.
Having watched this stuff for many years, I am more suspicious that you are. I believe the NDA is keeping Lon silent. Otherwise there would have been need for one. I do believe the church was targeted due to its facilities and ties to the DC community. However, the church had no idea what they were getting. Platt is no mere New Calvinist. He is part of the inner sanctrum and these boys play rough.
I forsee some tough days ahead for the members of MBC. This sort of thing never ends well. As for changing the world for Christ, I don’t buy it. That is always the rallying cry but it loses meaning over time.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
“She can turn any vegatable or cut of meat into a delicacy.”
++++++++++++++++
…would mrs. Ken F ever talk to us? me? about chicken?
I’m sure she would. But how should the two of you get in contact without disclosing email addresses or phone numbers in public?
Ken F (aka Tweed),
wow! we could dialogue briefly here?
She is out and about right now. I’ll let her know when she gets back.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
Mrs. Muff does not enjoy cooking, so over the years I’ve taken up the slack.
I’ve become quite good with a carbon steel Wok.
I do my best work over charcoal or a camp stove. I surprise myself with the food I’ve cooked in a Dutch oven. When tornadoes in 2011 left us without power for a week I did all the cooking, with some coaching from my wife (almost everything in the fridge or freezer had to be cooked before going bad). One of the best was layers of sliced potatoes and leeks on the bottom with some kind of white fish on top, and some other ingredients in the middle I don’t remember. We all ate like kings that week.
It loses meaning when people don’t treat each other right, like respectfully. Love. Truth. NDAs instead of transparency with each & every stakeholder (money donated, time volunteered, employed) is just plain wrong.
Repeat after me:
NOTHING GETS OLD-FASHIONED FASTER THAN THE EXTRA EXTRA TRENDY.
“Oh, that’s so Day-Before-Yesterday!”
— Buffy the Vampire Slayer (the original movie)
Neil, you seem to be objecting in good faith…welcome! Speaking only for myself, you omit a highly relevant phrase in your objection. The isolated (debatable) abusers you refer to have (according to you and your reformed brethren) done what they’ve done by the decree and desire of god. Doesn’t this obvious contradiction and obscene indictment of god give you cause to rethink that theology?
I have mixed feelings about this whole issue. I am no fan of David Platt, and have heard from a friend who used to attend there about some crazy behind the scenes shenanigans. However, if you read the Washington Post article, much of the concern is about critical race theory, when in my opinion it should be about Pratt’s methods of overtaking the church. But MBC was born from a rich white group of people,
Wasn’t “The Inevitable Marxist-Leninist Dialectic of History” also a form of Predestination?