Rarely have so many been told so little, using so many words.
I would be starting a movement to withold ALL financial offerings until the truth is revealed.

Is it just me, or did all that say basically nothing?

Believer: Rarely have so many been told so little, using so many words.

🙂

And the hand gestures and body language in the video clip of Happy Peterson revealed a lot more than (and were more transparent than) his words.

In this case, “transparent” means you can see through the Board’s intent to keep tight-lipped about The Chapel “crisis”, until they ‘have’ to reveal the scoop to church members. I’m sure local media are champing at the bit for maximum transparency as well.

Imagine that. Potter can count.

Max,

That was the impression I got.

Is it just me….or does the Board sound guiltier with each prayer request??

From the bug’s perspective, the windshield is fully transparent.

Watchman on the Wall,

Guilty of what, though?

(a)”In an effort to protect the privacy of pastors and other staff members participating in the inquiry,

(b) we will not release the name of this firm or any of its employees at this time.”
++++++++++++++++++++

it wouldn’t be the first time i’m missing something plain…. but truly wondering how (b) relates to (a).

i mean, it’s plain that (b) will protect the privacy of the firm and its employees.

but how will (b) protect the privacy of ‘pastors and other staff members participating in the inquiry’.
.
.
.
the Board seems litigious-paranoid, biblical-paranoid, PR-paranoid, losing-tithe-$-paranoid…

sort of saying all the right things but then negating them all.

my word, such panic. i’m sure they have too much to lose.

Ted: withhold information

so withhold tithe$

As someone who spent many years in Corporate America, I must say…that all sounds so corporate. I mean, really, really corporate. It almost gave me flashbacks.

They tacked some spiritual stuff on at the end, but the rest of it sounded as if it came straight from the C Suite.

Believer: so little, using so many words.

Jesus, OTOH, was direct, never waffling:

“Woe to you, snakes, white washed sepulchres…”

Catholic Gate-Crasher,

Seeking God and fellowship with God’s people, while attending church, only to sit and listen to words that are meaningless. Or, even worse, a cover-up. Absurd.

God-seekers leave. Who is left? Sycophants?

Historically, religious leaders have always persecuted truth seekers/tellers. Galileo, for example. Jesus, another example.

Catholic Gate-Crasher,
Muff Potter,
elastigirl,
Thank you all for your kind words. I felt like I needed to take a break from commenting for a while (and I still might need that break). But when I saw this topic I not could resist adding a comment. Every time I hear someone say some kind of change will be transparent (e.g., “The software upgrade will be transparent to the user.”), I cannot not think about how the windshield is transparent to the bug just before the splat. I guess I’ve seen too many splats by now. Not that anything like that would ever happen in a church or ministry…

Cynthia W.: To me, it seems obvious that the process lasting many weeks, with all these reports of “Something’s happening, and we won’t tell you anything,” would result in the congregation’s imagining ever-more-drastic disasters.

Exactly! They will imagine, think, discuss, talk, etc. Then, bam! They will be accused of gossip, not having faith, etc. etc. The place will come unraveled. The leaders will blame the congregation for gossiping and unfaithfulness . . . and the leaders do nothing wrong. I’ve seen it often.

Bridget,

These situations really show up the divide between “labor and management” in some of these churches. “Show up and shut up,” the bosses say to the people without whom the bosses wouldn’t have jobs.

Should a church submit to transparent leaders for a season? Oh My! (Chuckles) I suppose that depends upon what you mean by transparent: https://julieroys.com/john-pipers-successor-resigns-amid-allegations-of-abusive-leadership-at-bethlehem-baptist/
“The Roys Report reached out to Bethlehem Baptist Church and to Kurt Elting-Ballard, chairman of Bethlehem’s Council of Elders, for comment but no one responded.”
Personally, as pastor Emeritus and College/Seminary Chancellor, I’m just tweeting about Bible verses as usual.
How transparent can you get?
Now that my successor has resigned I might need to unretire.
Meanwhile, the Doug-Wilson-disciple whose hiring as College/Seminary President has upset some folks, has tweeted “Lay aside impossible expectations, turn off the inner prosecutor, forsake suspicious judgment, and love your imperfect pastors.”
Like Doug, he gets the gospel right!!!

You keep saying that word, “transparency.” Are you sure about that?

My Dear Wormwood,

I refer you to my previous epistle on Semantics, specifically the redefinition of The Enemy’s words into our “diablolical meanings”.

Your Ravenously Affectionate Uncle,
Screwtape

P.S. Nowhere do we corrupt so effectively as at the very foot of The Enemy’s altar!

Ava Aaronson: And then there’s another church of late where 4 pastors have recently resigned & others have departed. Like this post, nothing explained by the leadership that remains, so far.

Nacht und Nebel – they simply Disappeared into the Night and Fog.
And if you ask any questions, YOU Disappear too.

Believer: Rarely have so many been told so little, using so many words.

My father used to say “Only a lawyer could talk for three hours and say absolutely nothing.”

He obviously never ran into these Christian Leaders(TM).

Pastor John: just tweeting about Bible verses, as usual

Back in the day, there was also just “tweeting” about Bible verses as usual: Luke 4:1–13 and Matthew 4:1–11, a dialogue of two, quoting Scriptures to each other.

Genesis 3 has another conversation, with two quoting what God said, “just [talking or] tweeting about Bible verses, as usual”

Obviously, just quoting the Bible or “what God said” doesn’t cut it.

Since Jesus anoints each believer with His Holy Spirit indwelling, we all, on level ground at the foot of the Cross, have the opportunity/responsibility to test Bible-quoting in this context.

Moreover, “pastor” is one of 18 God-given gifts (Rom 12, 1 Cor 12, Eph 4), which again are all equally of value in the church – and every Christian is anointed with at least one gift. Discernment, for example, is useful in noting where there’s snake oil in “just tweeting Bible verses, as usual”.

Fortunately, in the US, each local church is voluntary both ways. Participate, or not.

Furthermore, with freedom of speech, as much as pastors can preach, parishioners can share about their experiences – giving their Christian testimony of what happens in “church”.

Finally, listener/participant, be aware, beware. Critical thinking is God-given, as the Bereans recognized in the Early Church.

What an amazing God we have, in giving us:
-the Bible AND
-the indwelt Holy Spirt in each believer, granting wisdom as requested
-each believer anointed with at least 1 of 18 spiritual gifts to the church at large
-18 total gifts among the followers of Jesus, indwelt by God’s Holy Spirit, given FREE by God to the church at large via individual believers with NO collections or donations needed, these are GIFTS given by GOD to us, all of us
-freedom of religion
-freedom of speech
-our critical thinking for responsible decision-making as we have been created by our Creator God

Ever grateful to our most amazing God: Father, Son, & Holy Spirit.

Headless Unicorn Guy: Sunk Cost Fallacy – the Con Man’s Greatest Friend!

And the related Loss Aversion bias.

Ava Aaronson: Discerning listeners figure this out, obviously, hopefully before the clergyman ends up in Rob Downen’s database at the “Houston Chronicle” with a mugshot, the “Abuse of Faith” series.

And how many of their followers said “I can’t believe it!! Man, he could sure preach!” Pulpit deceivers can get by undetected for years if they have a touch of charisma and a gift of gab.

David:
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,

I also work for a very large corporation and they would say, “name” has been dismissed from the company. With no further explanation, it’s the explanations that get you in trouble.

Ohhhh yes. Oh my gosh. The weasel words. But everyone always knew what they *really* meant.

Lowlandseer: Jonathan Edwards, Some thoughts Concerning the Revival), quoted by Sinclair B Ferguson

Sorry, but quoting Jonathan Edwards has the effect on me of undermining an otherwise good argument. He had some great things to say, but also some of the worst I have heard. Here is an example from one of his teachings where he explains how much the saved will rejoice over the eternal conscious torment of the unsaved, even their own unsaved children, parents, siblings, and friends:
“When they shall see how miserable others of their fellowcreatures are, who were naturally in the same circumstances with themselves; when they shall see the smoke of their torment, and the raging of the flames of their burning, and hear their dolorous shrieks and cries, and consider that they in the mean time are in the most blissful state, and shall surely be in it to all eternity ; how will they rejoice!
…
The saints in glory will know, concerning the damned in hell, that God never loved them, but that he hates them, and will be forever hated of God.
…
Therefore, when God has thus declared his hatred of the damned, and the saints see it, it will be no way becoming in the saints to love them, nor to mourn over them.”

Preaching like this is worse than meaningless. But on the bright side, he was indeed transparent about what he believed. So he had that going for him.

(If his point was to warn others, it is an empty warning in light of his teachings on election, where the damned cannot choose otherwise.)

https://www.biblebb.com/files/edwards/contemplated.htm

Lowlandseer: Preaching is not “meaningless words”

So much of it really is though. Reading the scriptures is so much simpler and true. No interpretation from a sinful pastor needed.

Catholic Gate-Crasher: weasel words

-weasel words
-empty words
-fightin’ words
-the last word
-give my word
-man of his word
-God’s word
-spread the word
-word for word
-My word!
-famous last words
-In the beginning was the Word

In any case, with regard to humans, actions speak louder than words. Regarding any person who claims to speak for God Himself, that began in the Garden of Eden. So we test the spirit of the word spoken.

Max: how many … said “I can’t believe it!

That happened here. Served on a board with a gentleman who staged the suicide of his [inconvenient as it turns out] wife. Numb for a week after the FBI arrested him, following a long detailed truth uncovering investigation. Seemingly impossible to fathom that this amazing “Christian leader” was a … murderer. Nothing prepared us.

What God alone knows.

Bridget: So much of it really is though.

Very true.

The exceptions are even memorable, because they stand out:

A sermon on “Love one another” so I said “Yes, God, but just one, we are overwhelmed right now,” and I invited an immigrant family (from the church corner where they had an interpreter) home to dinner. Life-changing for both families.

Another sermon years ago, “Reach out & share the Gospel as God leads you,” so I shared with a woman who became a Christian and two months later she unexpectedly died, followed with a Christian funeral and more sharing the Good News.

Finally, many years ago, there was a night with an elderly prayer lady from my church who argued, using Scripture, the fact that women can preach & teach, too. Not spoken to me from a pulpit, but very transformational.

Sermons come in various shapes and sizes. Not one size fits all. However, no weasel words. God does not waste our time. The blather is not from God. Humans blither blather ad nauseum.

Friend: Church is not required, even though some churches would have us believe we all need to belong and participate.

And that they (or even just he – a pastor) have/has all the answers. They (he) do/does not.

Major issue in church participation, IMHO, is when participants drop the ball in terms of their own Bible study, prayer, listening to the Holy Spirit directly, interacting with Christians outside of church. Best to keep one’s own counsel.

Friend: (I left for five years but went back, cautiously, to a congregation that does not try to overpower members. Still, even a kind-hearted church is not mandatory.)

May I ask, how you knew you were ready to go back?

Friend: not that different

True.

Most sermons and homilies, by whomever, are simply not memorable. IMHO, it’s not because one is not listening.

However, the worst is when as you leave, you realize the preacher had a self-serving agenda, and it was pure manipulation. You want to shake off that experience like volcanic ash as you’re out the door.

Ava Aaronson: Seemingly impossible to fathom that this amazing “Christian leader” was a … murderer.

I was in a workplace Bible study with a professional who murdered her husband in a gruesome way (she was in a team I supervised). She is now doing life in prison without parole. It was, and still is, “impossible to fathom.”

Ken F (aka Tweed): Sorry, but quoting Jonathan Edwards has the effect on me of undermining an otherwise good argument. He had some great things to say, but also some of the worst I have heard. Here is an example from one of his teachings where he explains how much the saved will rejoice over the eternal conscious torment of the unsaved, even their own unsaved children, parents, siblings, and friends:
“When they shall see how miserable others of their fellowcreatures are, who were naturally in the same circumstances with themselves; when they shall see the smoke of their torment, and the raging of the flames of their burning, and hear their dolorous shrieks and cries, and consider that they in the mean time are in the most blissful state, and shall surely be in it to all eternity ; how will they rejoice!
…
The saints in glory will know, concerning the damned in hell, that God never loved them, but that he hates them, and will be forever hated of God.
…
Therefore, when God has thus declared his hatred of the damned, and the saints see it, it will be no way becoming in the saints to love them, nor to mourn over them.”

Preaching like this is worse than meaningless. But on the bright side, he was indeed transparent about what he believed. So he had that going for him.

(If his point was to warn others, it is an empty warning in light of his teachings on election, where the damned cannot choose otherwise.)

https://www.biblebb.com/files/edwards/contemplated.htm

Lord have mercy. I am gobsmacked.

Wild Honey: May I ask, how you knew you were ready to go back?

Happy to explain. First, we didn’t leave because of abuse at that church. A crisis in our congregation (not abuse) led to months of grief and confusion. This awakened my much earlier experiences of abuse in the family, youth group, and college fellowship. I was vulnerable because volunteering at our church exposed me to the grief and confusion. I burned out. We did not plan to leave; I was just sobbing in bed all day after church, and this scared the children. Staying would have been counterproductive.

Over time, my husband and I talked about going back. Very slowly my fears ebbed, and one day I wanted to go. We sat near the back just in case. Worship has benefited me, but I have conditions. I’m up in the pastors’ grills with questions about making sure everyone is heard. I limit volunteering, but did complete some solo efforts. I don’t look for best friends there; distance protects me. It’s working, although the pandemic led to a long long closure.

Going back showed me that the congregation had recovered. This helped me recover too.

It almost goes without saying that the children are not interested in church. They do pray, as do I.

Nobody has to do any of this. It’s only my experience.

Jack: If the events in the Bible occurred, then that time of human/divine interaction has passed.

Having served as missionaries in some highly remote areas (yes, that still exists and, no, we didn’t run into Anthony Bourdain), we have seen God’s direct intervention. I encourage the seeking of God as like in Bible days.

Yes, evangelism or reaching out or sharing our story (minus Western Evangelicalism which is power, vice, $$$ centric) is still going on and essential to our walk with God. We are His ambassadors.

An acquaintance’s son is one of those all-nighter gamer types on weekends. He saved a girl’s life, in another country, when he perceived signs of suicide while gaming in the global community. Love one another, even while gaming. He arranged for a welfare check in her locale. It was spot on. Love. Empathy. In action.

However, prolly not very Calvinistic or Reformed, if I understand it correctly, however.

Max: not too fond of hyper-Calvinism. Most Calvinists are decent enough people if you can get past their view of God’s plan of salvation, authoritarian control of the pew, distinct separation of clergy and laity, and subordination of female believers.

-their view of God’s plan of salvation [select few?]
-authoritarian control of the pew
-distinct separation of clergy and laity
-subordination of female believers

Male leadership circle-the-wagons stance? Interesting gig if you can get it. Anointed. Touch not. Pay up. Shut up. Follow. Obey. Don’t think. Don’t ask. Don’t tell. Pay up even more. Because, “God”, “Bible verses”, “tradition”, “theology”.

At some point, in our time, I believe, a corner was turned, a threshold crossed:

-don’t report criminal activity to LE.
-don’t respect science.

Lowlandseer: Hope all’s well with you.

Thanks. It’s been an interesting year, but we are doing well. I hope all is well on your side of the pond.

Ava Aaronson: Having served as missionaries in some highly remote areas (yes, that still exists and, no, we didn’t run into Anthony Bourdain), we have seen God’s direct intervention. I encourage the seeking of God as like in Bible days.

Yes, evangelism or reaching out or sharing our story (minus Western Evangelicalism which is power, vice, $$$ centric) is still going on and essential to our walk with God. We are His ambassadors.

An acquaintance’s son is one of those all-nighter gamer types on weekends. He saved a girl’s life, in another country, when he perceived signs of suicide while gaming in the global community. Love one another, even while gaming. He arranged for a welfare check in her locale. It was spot on. Love. Empathy. In action.

I’m the first to admit, I don’t have all the answers but it seems that if we do see the hand of God at, it’s attached to a very human arm, as your story demonstrated.

I have never witnessed a miracle. No magical healings, no ‘still voices’.
I have seen people at their best and worst and I think, if there is a God then that divine connection is within the person themselves.

But many people are still doing good things but not as Christians.

So how does the wider christianity engage people? What would ignite or reignite faith? And where would & what form of church would be part of it?

Church (most of it) seems to be failing to keep people Christian or bring new ones into the flock.

Unfortunately depopulation is the latest Christian trend.

Jack: What would ignite or reignite faith?

“IF my people, who are called by My name, will humble themselves and pray and seek My face and turn from ‘their’ wicked ways, THEN I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.” (2 Chronicles 7:14)

Jack: And where would & what form of church would be part of it?

Revival and spiritual awakening would occur in the Body of Christ, which may or may not be in “church” at that time.

Ken F (aka Tweed),

“If you should for ever be cast off by God, it would be agreeable to your treatment of Jesus Christ. It would have been just with God if he had cast you off for ever, without ever making you the offer of a Saviour. But God hath not done that; he has provided a Saviour for sinners, and offered him to you, even his own Son Jesus Christ, who is the only Saviour of men. All that are not forever cast off are saved by him. God offers men salvation through him, and has promised us, that if we come to him, we shall not be cast off.”
Jonathan Edwards,”The Justice of God in the Damnation of Sinners”

What Edwards preaches is rooted in Scripture. Not liking what he says doesn’t make it untrue and if you really don’t like him, don’t read him. After all he has been dead for a very long time.

Lowlandseer: What Edwards preaches is rooted in Scripture. Not liking what he says doesn’t make it untrue and if you really don’t like him, don’t read him.

Psalm 137:8 says, “Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.”

We have choices. We can think that verse is a command (current literalists and inerrantist thinking). We can study context (Babylon, merely a verse from a Psalm, etc.). We can write it off as the Old Testament God. We can omit it from the readings, or at least from lyrics sung by children’s choirs.

Whatever we do, it remains a violent and vengeful bit of language.

I choose to focus on the Sermon of the Mount. Go ahead, call me a cafeteria Christian or not a Christian at all… but I’m not going to endorse or follow an angry, vengeful religion that revels in anyone’s suffering.

Friend,

Context is everything.

Bridget,

How do you understand this in context?

I deliberately cherry-picked a shocking verse, but the context does glamorize, or justify, or explain the mass murder of children. If I understand it, the verse is not even recounting an event, such as a battle.

The best I can do is to call the image problematic, and point out that it’s a heinous crime in civilized societies. Maybe it’s saying “that’s what Babylonians deserve,” but the children are not the captors or enslavers.

Bridget,

The pugs are looking over my reply.

Muff Potter,

Do you not think it’s directed at Babylon? …which gets defined in several ways. (Obligatory note that Bob Marley used only the first few verses of the Psalm.) Here’s the ending:

Remember, O Lord, against the Edomites
the day of Jerusalem’s fall,
how they said, ‘Tear it down! Tear it down!
Down to its foundations!’
O daughter Babylon, you devastator!
Happy shall they be who pay you back
what you have done to us!
Happy shall they be who take your little ones
and dash them against the rock!

Friend: Do you not think it’s directed at Babylon? …which gets defined in several ways. (Obligatory note that Bob Marley used only the first few verses of the Psalm.) Here’s the ending:

Yes, it is directed at Babylon, but it should be remembered that God in no way shape or form condoned such a thing. I think it’s a what goes around comes around kind of thing, exiled Jews telling their captors to not be surprised when what you did to us, happens to you.

Muff Potter: I think it’s a what goes around comes around kind of thing, exiled Jews telling their captors to not be surprised when what you did to us, happens to you.

Thanks. (I promise I didn’t set out to start an involved discussion.) I still dislike the verse, because it is in some kind of worship song, eh? A charitable interpretation might be solace: “If God let this happen to us, surely he will allow the same to happen to our oppressors.”

Even in that case, I wish the image were not of the oppressors’ children. To me it’s a threat reminiscent of gangster talk: “Nice little family you got there. It would be a shame if anything happened to it.”

Muff Potter: I get very tired of God being portrayed (and not just by Edwards) as a cruel and petulant tyrant who’s more in love with himself and his own power than he is with anything else.

I am surprised by how popular Edwards is among some Christians. I don’t understand how that is possible in light of what he actually taught. Perhaps they don’t do much fact checking. Edwards does a pretty impressive job of portraying his god as a sociopathic egomaniac. I cut some pieces out of this quote because it is pretty long:

It is a proper and excellent thing for infinite glory to shine forth; and for the same reason, it is proper that the shining forth of God’s glory should be complete; that is, that all parts of his glory should shine forth, that every beauty should be proportionably effulgent, that the beholder may have a proper notion of God. It is not proper that one glory should be exceedingly manifested, and another not at all; for then the effulgence would not answer the reality. For the same reason it is not proper that one should be manifested exceedingly, and another but very little.
…
But this could not be, unless sin and punishment had been decreed;
…
And as it is necessary that there should be evil, because the display of the glory of God could not but be imperfect and incomplete without it, so evil is necessary, in order to the highest happiness of the creature, and the completeness of that communication of God, for which he made the world;
…
for, as we have said, the sense of good is comparatively dull and flat, without the knowledge of evil.

In other words, God’s glory requires the existence of evil for all eternity because his goodness is not good enough on its own. And he needs the eternal punishment of people who committed finite offenses in order for him to look good.

Muff Potter: I get very tired of God being portrayed….as a cruel and petulant tyrant who’s more in love with himself and his own power than he is with anything else.

That. (The world has more than enough (human) malignant narcissists….)

Jack: Sorry, Gang, I try not to be blunt on this forum, but Bridget did ask.

I did ask, because I did want to know 🙂 I have no problem with blunt. I’m that way myself.

I do believe God works through people as much as any other way. I believe he works through believers and non believers alike . . . He has done so throughout history. 😉

We seem to both be influenced by our own experiences and what we see around us.

Bridget:
Friend,

Well, Muff has answered this query quite to my satisfaction. I’ll just add that it’s a bloody lament about what one culture might return to another at a time of village eat village in history. I don’t view it as a command of God in any way.

Thank you.

A few Quiverfull and other way-out writers construe every verse of the Bible as a command from God. If slavery is described, then God at least endorses it, and maybe considers it part of an ideal society. Literalists and inerrantists tend to distort Scripture by assigning equal weight to its full content, even though the canon did not exist until centuries after the last book was written. The writer of this Psalm might not have imagined that it would last a couple of thousand years, and end up with so much weight attached to it.

I appreciate your graciousness.

Bridget: In case anyone is interested. This is a response to Kevin DeYoungs review of a book….Be warned, it’s long but worth it.

https://thefrontporch.org/2021/07/sanctifying-the-status-quo-a-response-to-reverend-kevin-deyoung/

Thank you, Bridget, for the link to the excellent (and I agree, well-worth-the-read) article. And near the beginning of the linked article is a reference to Martin Luther King Jr’s Letter From a Birmingham Jail which I Googled, found in PDF form, and read before continuing to read the linked article. Letter From a Birmingham Jail was also well worth the read.

(Oops, I just failed to be “properly submissive” to some male in “authority”….I did all that reading and research without asking permission of “the head of the church and / or home”….)

Friend,

🙂

Bridget: Consequently, you assuredly learned something 🙂

🙂

(And all without someone doing the equivalent of saying “when I want your opinion, I’ll give it to you”….)

Nikki: I expect the findings will include a manipulative and toxic work environment spearheaded by the senior pastor.

That’s more information than has been presented so far!