“I wished they had never come to me in the first place. I even wondered if I should stop blogging and volunteer in some of the outreach programs of my church. He disagreed. He believes that all of this will help me to become more humble and less reactive.”
+++++++++++++++++++++++

you do a highly meaningful, necessary service here, dee. i appreciate and respect you immensely for your integrity.

life is messy at times. we do our best with the complex things dished out (well, *some* people do their best. like you.).

and we come out the other side more diamond-like — with highly valuable chiseling, beauty, wisdom and understanding, tall and proud (in a very good sense of the word).

for the record, i’ll take unvarnished over sweet any day of the year.

(i’ve still got many years’ old canker sores from being on the receiving end of ‘christian’ sweetness.)

and also for the record, i thought you asked valid questions previously.

dee: I do feel I told the truth.

This is light years ahead and the total flip side of what we see play out in many churches and their orgs and their leaders (lay & paid) regarding CSA. Reference: https://www.houstonchronicle.com/local/investigations/abuse-of-faith/

How about the folks still supporting RZ? Hybels and/or WC? Etc. We could go on, it’s in the news and the courts daily in this country, and probably globally wherever there is “church”. The US has exported their dirt (they swept under the rug) via the mission field.

So, thank you, God bless, and ever grateful for your work, including clarifications. Everyone is wrong at some point, but only those seeking truth admit it. Truth seekers. The right side of history, the right side of the great human divide of truth seekers and truth concealers.

Appreciate the clarification and sharing epiphany.

I did not go through what Dee did, but I do know, as I mentioned in a previous post, that attorneys, when they have been hired, work for their client, period. If they do not do all they legally can, including getting info out of any potential source, they are not fulfilling their job. If this lawyer was hired by the church leadership, her job, in talking to sources, is to get all the info they can to protect the church from legal liability… it would be malpractice if she did not…
This is the fundamental problem which has been highlight many, many times on this blog…. “legal” and “spiritual” are getting mixed together….. many of us pew peons are not use to this…

I have professionally learned this… in fact, the lawyers that I work with have told me that when I am an expert witness on a patent issue, it is good I have a track record of working with both sides (plaintiff and defendant), just as many patent lawyers do….

So, just as Dee has highlighted about Church “covenants” that can be turned into legal documents, so can such “investigations” , especially when depraved crimes of child sexual abuse are involved.
This is another reason church leadership should IMMEDIATELY get the police involved when felonious crimes are committed… while not all police are “neutral”, there usually is no “spiritual” “authority” underlying their investigation…..

ishy,

At the core, I wonder if the people that try to “cover it up”, really believe what they preach? Heck, the Bible is FULL of “spiritual” people doing bad things.. it is the human condition, and the Church is suppose to be”the light”…
throughout history, if the church did the “right thing” with true love and grace, the church would be in a much different position….
PS… to me, the big question is: who pays G.R.A.C.E. As has been said many times…. follow the money..

Jeffrey Chalmers: PS… to me, the big question is: who pays G.R.A.C.E. As has been said many times…. follow the money..

I’ve always been a bit uncomfortable with that. I have wondered if there’s a different way to do independent investigations, but I can’t think of one. And if there was, would it honestly get used?

ishy,

If just a small part of all the donations that have gone to all the “big time” clowns that we have read about on this blog had gone to set up an endowment that would pay for an org like G.R.A.C.E. so that they would be financially independent, AND have enough cash to fight the frivolous suits that some of these big time “clowns” could throw at an org like G.R.A.C.E., it would potentially go along way.
I use to naively believe in the “independent” financial accounting outfit for Evangelicals… I DO NOT any more, but they were (are) supported by “membership” dues, so they are just a “trade group” for evangelicals..

Jeffrey Chalmers,

“If just a small part of all the donations that have gone to all the “big time” clowns that we have read about on this blog had gone to set up an endowment that would pay for an org like G.R.A.C.E. so that they would be financially independent,”
+++++++++++++++++++++++

just what i was thinking.

from “An Open Letter to RZIM from Brad & Lori Anne Thompson”, https://julieroys.com/open-letter-to-rzim-from-brad-lori-anne-thompson/

“Neither Lori Anne nor I felt we could withstand the public and private cost of litigation with someone so powerful.

We had/have no such philanthropists. At the time of settlement, having five children at home in Canada, it was unthinkable to have the next two or more years consumed by Mr. Zacharias, who had already consumed so much.”
————————-

evangelicalism’s priorities are so screwed up. too many donors are lazy, gullible, irresponsible, can’t be bothered to do their due diligence…

they use their faith as if it’s ‘magic’.

magic so magical that they’re unmoved by destroyed lives right in front of them — magic will take of everything. magic will take care of them. let them eat cake.

meanwhile, the destroyed lives quietly bleed and ache and suffer loss.

gaaaaawwwwwwddddddd it’s time for a revolution.

Dee,

A long time ago I worked for a small school district where something just seemed “off.” It was my first administrative position, and i was extremely excited, but someone took me aside at the small school where I worked and told me to be careful. Two years later, I knew why. I had already decided to resign and move on at the end of the year, but at that point an investigation was done and I was deposed. I was honest. Nothing came of the “investigation”, and I found the fact that I had legally bared my soul to an attorney to be the most frustrating part of it. 20 years later, the unethical principal was finally found out for his money issues and fired. There were so many fires that had to be put out at the same time that the district finally got a clue.

The good part of that experience-I put my trust in God and not in the investigation. I knew I had done the right thing by sharing what I did in the deposition and resigning under protest (I specifically listed in my letter of resignation that it was due to the principal’s behavior). You did the right thing a number of years ago. Hopefully, the lawyer in question will also continue to do the right thing. But, most importantly, you trusted God and did the right thing.Your blog helps, and many times rescues, so many from difficult situations, and that is something to be proud of.

elastigirl,

“is there any reason why GRACE do this pro bono, with wealthy donor committed support?”
++++++++++++++++

hell, RZIM in its quest to reinvent itself can redirect all their wealthy donors and partner with GRACE.

howz that for a change?!

(but please change out your board first, RZIM)

Well, I trust Dee to do the right thing. She is far more Christlike than the peope she exposes here.

I have to say, though, that I am a bit confused. I see that you, Dee, have changed your mind about GRACE, but I don’t see a clear reason why.

I’m sure I’m being dense about something here, but did the lawyer in question work for the church, the victims, or neither? Was she clear up front about who she was working for? I’m wondering why you changed your mind.

Bridget: Well, I trust Dee to do the right thing. She is far more Christlike than the people she exposes here.

I have to say, though, that I am a bit confused. I see that you, Dee, have changed your mind about GRACE, but I don’t see a clear reason why.

I’m sure I’m being dense about something here, but did the lawyer in question work for the church, the victims, or neither? Was she clear up front about who she was working for? I’m wondering why you changed your mind.

I too am wondering why Dee changed her mind. I get that Dee has now realised and processed her emotions that were triggered when G.R.A.C.E. approached her prior to appointing Samantha. But I don’t think Dee has explained fully her reasons for changing her mind and deciding that GRACE is trustworthy.

Questions I raised in the comments thread at Part 1 and which have still not been answered:

Has Samantha Kilpatrick ever privately or publicly denounced and rebuked the leaders of Providence Church for how badly they handled that case of abuse?

Has Samantha ever personally apologised and sought forgiveness from the families and victims who were injured by the way Providence mishandled the case?

Has Samantha ever publicly apologised to the Providence church congregation (new and old, current and former) for her failure to expose and denounce the way Providence mishandled the case?

Dee, do you know for certain whether Samantha has done any of those things? If you have no evidence that Samantha has done those things, how can you be so confident that G.R.A.C.E. (which now employs Samantha) is trustworthy?

A broader question, raised by others here, is how can any “independent investigation agency” can be truly independent when it is paid by the organisation which it is investigating?

(from OP): “Although I told the truth as I perceived it, I am still disturbed and disappointed in my reaction. As I keep my eye on the goal to prevent and expose abuse in the church, I must continue to speak what I believe to be true. However, I need my responses to be more measured and nuanced.”

Isn’t that whey they call it “triggering”? Something brings back the emotions and the gut responses that happened with a traumatic experience. Absolutely understandable.

Wild Honey: elastigirl: for the record, i’ll take unvarnished over sweet any day of the year.

Ditto.

And thank you, Dee, for both posts.

That.

Sowre-Sweet Dayes: To me, your description of events sounds like you’ve gone through a traumatic experience. Your response is from that trauma, all the alarms were triggered, and RIGHTLY SO. Don’t be hard on yourself.

That.

readingalong: (from OP): “Although I told the truth as I perceived it, I am still disturbed and disappointed in my reaction. As I keep my eye on the goal to prevent and expose abuse in the church, I must continue to speak what I believe to be true. However, I need my responses to be more measured and nuanced.”

Isn’t that whey they call it “triggering”? Something brings back the emotions and the gut responses that happened with a traumatic experience. Absolutely understandable.

That.

(And it can be so hard….recognizing what (or when or if) something has been triggered….balancing communicating (whether or not triggered) without losing the essence of oneself….)

done one: Thank you for being a Christ-like human Dee.

That.

readingalong: Isn’t that whey they call it “triggering”? Something brings back the emotions and the gut responses that happened with a traumatic experience.

And that “something” could be something trivial. Like acquiring a piece of fantasy art. That actually happened to me in January 2010. The circumstances around my acquiring that art piece triggered a flashback of my long-ago breakup with Ann – at full emotional intensity.

christiane: Dee has drawn a line and as this is her blog and her decision, we must respect her voice here FOR HER SAKE.

we may not comprehend all that we know completely, and we may not know all the details (even more likely), but for reasons we may not fully understand, Dee has spoken. She needs for us to listen to her. To what is left unsaid, we may still ponder, yes. Butas to what Dee has said, we need to be respectful, for Dee’s sake.

I was speaking in general about if there was a viable way to do an independent investigation and not specifically on this issue.

But dee has not shut down comments on this or the other post, nor have I seen her ask us not to talk about it. I don’t think you should speak for her.

dee: Did you know that I had not considered the fact that I could have been traumatized when I stepped into help a victim and his family?

This happens frequently globally among humanitarian aid workers.

The civil war in Liberia was very life-changing for the aid workers. A book written by three there: “Emergency Sex and Other Desperate Measures: A True Story From Hell On Earth” [Cain, Kenneth, Postlewait, Heidi, Thomson, Andrew] describes their experience.

Doctors Without Borders limits deployment times because of the severe trauma for personnel serving in conflict zones. There’s a documentary out there produced by their Bordeaux, France base (in English). A semi-retired doctor from Kentucky is interviewed before and after his mission. At the second interview, he is hardly recognizable – his demeanor and appearance had changed so much by his experience. Traumatic.

Humanitarian aid workers take care of themselves, it’s part of their mission. Take care of yourself, Dee. We all love and appreciate you.

dee,

Dee,
I am so glad my comment helped you. Several others have also used the word “trigger” which completely applies.
Who defines the level of anxiety appropriate to trauma? No one but your own body. So “overly anxious” is not a thing. The hardest part is for me to notice when because of a trigger I am not thinking as clearly as I could. Usually I realize it after time has passed, but I have found people to be gracious with me. If they are not, I find other people.
We did not choose to be involved in traumatic things. The Spirit of God is healing us but in his time.

dee,

I should also add that I have been reading this blog for years without commenting. It was the concern that Dee be kind to herself that made me comment.
The community in this blog and the desire for truth here really comforts me.

dee: Guideposts costs are inflated because they usually serve more wealthy clients. I believe from Julie Roy’s post that Guideposts has been involved in helping some dicey individuals.

Two words: MONEY TALKS.

Jeffrey Chalmers: there usually is no “spiritual” “authority” underlying their investigation…..

You DO know that once you get outside the Christianese or New Age Woo-Woo bubbles, “Spiritual” means “NOT real”?

elastigirl: they use their faith as if it’s ‘magic’.

magic so magical that they’re unmoved by destroyed lives right in front of them — magic will take of everything. magic will take care of them. let them eat cake.

A specific type of Magick called BIBLIOMANCY (Book Magic).

dee: In this situation, the lawyer was not hired by the church. She was asked to volunteer her time to investigate hat happened.

Okay. She volunteered her time. She was not hired.

dee: The investigators discovered that the pastors would not have to report according to the law. It was a happy day at PBC for thee pastors.

Okay, the law lets them not report. (A law that should be changed in my mind.) But ‘morally’ how the heck do Pastors not report the man and make sure he does not continue to abuse other children?? To me, this is awful and I wouldn’t care what the law says. I would leave a church where pastors didn’t protect those boys.

Ava Aaronson: Take care of yourself, Dee. We all love and appreciate you.

You will know them by their fruit.

Dee–kudos and great respect for how you are handling this. And also quiet urge for you not to denigrate your first response or assume it sinful. Sometimes our spidey senses do pick up on some hinkiness, even if unintended hinkiness on the part of the other party.

Sounds like you remain sensitive to your own faults. Don’t follow Luther down that rabbit hold to the point he did, confessing for hours on end. Remember that yes, you are still both saint and sinner BUT when you were saved you became a new creation.

And yes, I know that phrase “when you were saved” is enough for the LCMS to toss me on my tin ear. So be it. The pandemic has had the wonderful effect on me (amid its horrors) of distilling what I really believe. For me, the only purpose of the church is to see people who are lost become people who are saved. Adrian Rogers told the story that if two people leave Miami headed to Atlanta, and both arrive safely, one by plane and one by car, the one who came by car is likely to know exactly when he entered Georgia and the one by plane is not. He would say in the same way some folks are saved and know the point in time, others are saved and just know they are saved.

And for those put off by my phrase “only purpose” do not think I don’t realize the church is often a family, a source of comfort and aid, and a real strength to folks. I know it is. But I just don’t see those as the PURPOSE of the church, rather as wonderful gifts from God when we pursue that purpose.

dee: When you think of the mediation and firing, do you still get upset? I’m asking for myself. I need to figure out my response a bit better,

In my case, Dee, so many positive things resulted from the terrible treatment I was given. Most of all I was put in touch with Myra, a professor of education who was teaching at Calvin College. She had been treated very badly—even during remission from her terminal pancreatic cancer. We became good friends and connected on so many levels. Through her I became acquainted with her husband John. After she died, John and I got to know each other, and the rest is history—happily married almost 17 years! We both adore Myra. I have pictures of her and John in my study.

In your case, Dee, I really beg to differ with you. I’ve read the account, and I just don’t think you acted badly. Sure you might have said things differently, but you’re involved in SOOO much stuff related to your blog. If I were the “offended” party, I would say don’t mention it. But I have a think skin.

Please email me your address. (I thought I had it somewhere but can’t find it.) I want to send you a copy of “Fired at 57.”

Jeffrey Chalmers,

Well, very interesting. I just checked the internet. There’s not just a Tucker, but more than one at Westmont, including a Ruth Tucker.

Chloe Howard ’22 grew up wearing Westmont T-shirts and attending basketball games on family visits to Santa Barbara. The daughter of two alums and the granddaughter of two longtime education professors (Gayle and Ruth Tucker),

RL: It’s almost like Dee was yelled at and bullied into an apology… Very curious about the reason for the change of heart.

Oh, look. An innuendo.

Muff Potter: Sooner or later (hopefully sooner) it will be changed, because child sex abuse is a CRIME in all 50 States.
When they’re faced with a choice of reporting or going down for complicity, they’ll change their tune.
Either way the gavel’s gonna’ come down hard and heavy.

They changed the law last year to make clergy mandated reporters, but it doesn’t apply to this situation, unfortunately.

Ava Aaronson: Does the Bible read: “Do what you can get away with” insofar as the laws of the land, who is watching, and public opinion are concerned?

Totally agree, but a lot of church leaders are terrified of being sued or just getting a bad reputation from an abuser on staff. You see what people really believe in situations like this.

ishy: You see what people really believe in situations like this.

That, too.

Peter Marshall, Scotsman in DC, told a lawmaker, “Do you just put your finger in the air to see which way the wind blows, then make your decisions?” – or something like that, in “A Man Called Peter”.

Weak decision-making.

dee,

Dee,

I was able to put it behind me, but It has been two decades. However I do have a spidey sense about legally iffy situations which led me to leave a couple churches and one job because some things didn’t seem quite right. I have settled in a church that isn’t perfect , but appropriate safeguards seem to be in place.

Stewart Sperwer: nice of you to apologize but tbh you can’t take back what you said, and what you said was deeply, DEEPLY problematic. you have a significant platform that demands greater responsibility and accountability. please, please do better.

Stewart, are we to assume you’ve never made a mistake in life that you felt the need to apologize for? Would you post a comment like this to a man’s blog site? Please, please do better in being so self righteous.

Tom Parker: She apologized and does not owe you an explanation.

She gave an explanation anyway. She stated that she trusts many of the people at GRACE and she named them.

Thanks for replying to my comment, Dee.

dee: Any organization can err in how they handle things. We are fallible human beings. I trust many of the people at GRACE since I know them or know of their reputation.I know a couple well and they have really good hearts and believe in this venture fully.

As I know from Lutheran teaching, we are all simultaneously saints and sinners. That includes me.

I left PBC in late 2008 and do not know what transpired after that. I assure hope what you say was done.

I am comfortable with saying that all regenerate people are simultaneously saints and sinners, and that they all have a battle between the spirit and the flesh until they leave this mortal coil.

You say you trust many of the people at GRACE since you know them or know of their reputation. And you say you know a couple [of the people at GRACE] well and they have really good hearts and believe in this venture fully.

Doesn’t the Bible say that only God knows the heart? With all due respect, isn’t it wise to bear in mind the possibility that you might be have formed an incorrect view of someone’s character because you lack some of the necessary information?

I understand and respect that you are still working through how you responded to the trigger. So you may not yet feel up to considering what I am about to suggest. If so, you might like to put it on the back burner and re-visit it later.

As I understand it, your mission at this blog is to expose abuse in churches and in particular to expose the way churches mishandle disclosures of abuse. You say that you left PBC in late 2008 and you do not know what transpired after that. You assuredly hope that Samantha Kilpatrick has privately and/or publicly denounced and rebuked the leaders of Providence Church for how badly they handled the case of abuse that occurred prior to 2008, and that she has personally apologised and sought forgiveness from the families and victims who were injured by the way PBC mishandled the case, and that she has publicly apologised to the PBC congregation (new and old, current and former) for her failure to expose and denounce the way Providence mishandled the case.

I suggest you do what you can to find out whether Samantha has done those things.

If Samantha has done those things since 2008, then you can be more confident that G.R.A.C.E. has appointed a woman of integrity. If you find out that Samantha has not done those things, then I suggest you would want to review your support of G.R.A.C.E.

To have confidence in G.R.A.C.E. (or in any organistion) I believe it is necessary to look at the actions and behaviour of the people in that organisation who have positions of influence and authority in that organisation. Having confidence simply because of ‘feelings’ is not wise. I am not saying your confidence in G.R.A.C.E. is based solely on your feelings, Dee. I am only pointing out to you the complexities that are worth bearing in mind.

I speak from a fair bit of experience. I’m a survivor of church abuse, sexual abuse, domestic abuse, and abuse by “victim advocates”.

Thank you, Dee, for showing us what grace looks like.

Barbara Roberts,

I was “almost” a victim of sex abuse. I have told this story before on TWW, but it is worth noting that in 1973-74 I was being groomed by my 7-8th grade science teacher at my fundamentalist Baptist school.. several years later he was “perp walked” out of the school never to seen OR TALKED about again…all hush hush… But, because of TWW I tracked this teacher down, and found him on California’s Megan’s list, and he was a “guest” of the California State prisons… for, sexual abuse of minors..
in the middle of this search, I was in San Diego on business, and visited the County Courthouse, and got his conviction record… 3 boys were significantly molested, and there were probably more….
and I know after he was fired from my school he taught at a Christian School in the San Diego area… and worked with a number of Christian and “arts” groups that involved youth.. and stopped looking after getting the Court records…
As far as I know, none of the “Christian leaders” that were “supervising” him ever were “disciplined”… it was all just sweep under the rug.. in fact, after I posted about “him” on my fundamentalist high school alumni facebook page some of my fellow classmates had stories, including how it was all “hush hush”…
So, as far as I am concerned, the “pious Christian leaders” from my schools are partially to blame for the at least 3 boys that were disgustingly abused (I read the police reports).
So, my story has allot of similarities to Dee’s experience, and “Christian Leaders” that cover this stuff up are almost as bad as the perps… Kids are not stupid… they see this stuff, and while not completely understanding it all, covering it up, and in some cases squashing victims is only magnifying the evil..
I am so thankful the perp never touched me, but it got close, and to this day there are some of my fellow students that I wonder about, several of which “went off the deep end”, and I just wonder..

Jeffrey J Chalmers: after I posted about “him” on my fundamentalist high school alumni facebook page some of my fellow classmates had stories, including how it was all “hush hush”…

That was the way.

Thank you for telling your story here.

Jeffrey J Chalmers,

What polite society does, in general. Sweep things under the rug. Lots of filthy rugs in Christian institutions, guessing. The polite ones in particular.

Esau Mccaulley writes about this in “Reading While Black”.

Barbara Roberts,

Well said Barbara!

Dee – It was never clear to me that Samantha was on the payroll of the church. If it was true, I was never told so.

elastigirl: well, i think the concept of ‘sin’ has metamorphosed into some huge and ever-growing mass…

angles and bulges popping out every day, junk flying into it being sucked to its surface with a crash through the sheer gravity its massive size has developed.

a mass of stuff that isn’t sin at all. but willed into being by human religious paranoia and quest for power over others.

There’s a lot of sins in the Bible that are completely ignored or excused in the church because they are common among those in power. Particularly pride and greed.

I think the desire to be in charge is usually fueled by sin, and one of the main reasons I can’t support a complementarian perspective. There may be a few who don’t enjoy it but think it’s the right thing, but I think a lot of people are driven by the idea that they have to always get their own way and shouldn’t have to compromise. I’ve never seen it make a relationship better, to be honest if they actually hold to it. I don’t think humans become better people by always getting their own way.

And that plays out in churches on a large scale. There’s always someone who thinks they have to be in charge and everyone has to do what they want. And it never creates good situations. It never leads to examples that non-Christians can admire. It leads to a lot of unnecessary conflict, unhappiness, and the inability to see there might be better ways to do things.

ishy,

Yup…

Tom Parker,

I’m not going to dignify your implied sexism. I’ve long been a huge supporter of Dee’s and TWW. She has been a huge inspiration in helping me leave my own abusive situation. Obviously, I’ve screwed up more times than I can count, but I don’t operate a prominent blog with such far-reaching influence. G.R.A.C.E. was instrumental in my journey, and her thoughtless words unnecessarily opened up old wounds.

Tom Parker,

Do you know why it’s not good enough, brother? When the man who abused me from the time I was in elementary school through high school apologized, that wasn’t good enough. It didn’t undo everything he did to me. When GRACE helped my church do the right thing and helped put that monster in jail, I finally felt safe. I’ve always championed what Dee does here, and will continue to do so. But her post killed me all over again. Please, if you work with abuse victims–which, if you work with human beings, you almost certainly do, though you may not know it–don’t be so callous. The reason people are upset here is because we’ve been deeply hurt & (re)traumatized.

ishy: There’s a lot of sins in the Bible that are completely ignored or excused in the church because they are common among those in power. Particularly pride and greed.

I would add Gluttony to that list, too!

elastigirl,

I’ve thought these very same thoughts.

elastigirl: the human being jesus means everything.

YES, YES, and triple yes, otherwise the stuff we hear from theologians and preachers about Jesus’ humanity is just more mechanical fluff.

dee,

OK…
I might add the perp got a 18 sentence and he was convicted of:
LEWD OR LASCIVIOUS ACTS WITH A CHILD UNDER 14 YEARS OF AGE
this is all public….
But remember, it has to be “hush hush” in Christian circles.. so it is fine for preacher boys to get all worked up at us kids about our “sins” but NEVER talk of this when one of “them” is convicted…. reading the police reports made me want to throw-up…
And think preacher boys want to make me “feel” bad for listening to rock music, and believing the science that the earth is old!!!

elastigirl: well, i think the concept of ‘sin’ has metamorphosed into some huge and ever-growing mass…

~ ~ ~

a mass of stuff that isn’t sin at all. but willed into being by human religious paranoia and quest for power over others.

~ ~ ~

the human being jesus means everything.

Yes in particular to these points.

Speaking as a mostly-evangelical, I see a lot of parallels between the Pharisees of the four Gospels and the evangelical church.

– Matthew 23:15, traveling over land and sea to make a convert, then making the convert twice a child of Gehenna as themselves [burdening new converts by the weight of “sins”/legalism God never intended them to be burdened by]

– Mark 7:5-13, holding to the traditions of humankind over the commands of God [complementarianism, anyone? Granted, one has to be careful with this one, given that history shows us the Bible can be used to prooftext just about anything by anyone determined enough]

Just for example.

Thank God for Jesus.

elastigirl: things we do that are less than perfect are not sins.

of course we can always do better — it’s just not a sin to be less than perfect. we end up groveling to God for just existing.

AMEN^2 (amen squared)
Is it any wonder that so many leave Christianity when they find out that under the existing system (ixtian perfectionism) they can never measure up?

a) I can never be ‘good enough’ for God.

b) Because I can’t achieve ‘perfection’, my every move and motive is suspect.

c) Only in a state of ‘grace’ (whatever that’s supposed to mean) can I ever hope
to keep my miserable carcass out of hell.

As a father and a grandfather I find it as ludicrous as it is monstrous.

Muff Potter,

A) That’s why you need the Saviour
B) Ditto
C) Ditto
And “the human being Jesus” doesn’t deliver you from any of that – that’s just wishful thinking, or a god of your own making.

dee: It’s possible that this will happen soon.

I’m happy to hear that, Dee.

I saw the statement that GRACE released. I have challenged them to show me evidence that they are willing to learn from victims. My challenge is on Twitter — and you don’t need a twitter account to read someone else’s tweets.

https://twitter.com/notunderbondage/status/1410461802190704644?s=21

Paul K: Just to be clear…Dee, are you saying you are now okay with GRACE hiring Samantha Kilpatrick?

I second Paul’s question.

Jeffrey Chalmers: many of us have well justified skepticism of any church “authority” conducting their own investigations….

From what little I know… in family court, sometimes one party is required to pay for their own attorney and for the attorneys of other parties, such as a child and an indigent adult. The judge might appoint an attorney for the child. The indigent adult (say, a mother trying to regain custody of the child) might choose their own counsel. The party who is paying has no control over what the other lawyers do.

This model could work in church abuse cases. The congregation could be required to pay for its own lawyers, as well as lawyers would represent victims. Adult victims could choose their own lawyers. Parents of young victims could choose their children’s counsel, or judges could appoint counsel.

Attitudes in congregations would shift if power were distributed differently.

I don’t know if any of the RCC cases required Catholic dioceses to pay for a guardian ad litem, or to pay for appointed counsel for adult survivors.

Lowlandseer,

“And “the human being Jesus” doesn’t deliver you from any of that – that’s just wishful thinking, or a god of your own making.”
+++++++++++++++++

give us more credit than that.

seems to me ‘the human being Jesus’ is the other vital half of ‘God’s son Jesus’. i assure you there’s no lack of understanding on the deity of Jesus.

for me, & for others, the greatest significance is that the God of the universe wanted to know and experience his creation so much that he became one of them. so he could walk in our shoes.
out of love.

Muff Potter,

Wishful thinking. You should consult a good theologian to better inform your judgment.

I am writing up a response to this news about Dee and will email it to her when I am done. This is just to let you know that it is coming.

Lowlandseer,

define good theologian.

elastigirl: define good theologian

I’m not sure it’s possible to distinguish a “good” theologian from a “bad” one since all theologians consider themselves as specialists regarding the nature of God and religious belief and practice. Depending on their individual interpretation of Scripture, I would label a theologian as good if they agreed with me and bad if they didn’t 🙂 Thus, various expressions of church hang out with good guys or bad guys depending theological preference … which may or may not be Truth.

elastigirl,

I’d say a good theologian is a fine scholar with a deep understanding of the whole history of Christianity and ancient Scriptural languages, and a command of philosophy and logic. They should also be intellectually curious and interested in hearing what lay folk have to say. They should communicate clearly… without breaking life down into oppressive, simplistic categories.

Max,

I concur that theologians ought to be people of faith. However, I could disagree with a theologian and therefore decide that he or she is not really a Christian. That’s too easy, so I don’t go there. 🙂

elastigirl: define good theologian.

In the great panoply of Christian theology, we have Catholic, Lutheran, Reformed; you name it.
The legitimate ones went through a poop-load of academic rigor to get their advanced degrees and I admire them for their tenacity of achievement.
Each one can be right in his or her own sphere of expertise and therefore a ‘good theologian’.

Max,

Not knowledge and not understanding, either.

elastigirl,

Good doctrine always was good dynamics, in the day of Jesus, the Apostles and Holy Spirit (anyone still remember Him?)

The trouble makers haven’t got any principle.

Since I became an e-mail subscriber, I can now read G.R.A.C.E communiques, but the rest of the questions have been good mulling for months especially nos. 2-5 and 7-10.

Max: I don’t doubt their Christianity, but which one has a corner on the Truth?

Each and every one will say “WE ALONE DO!”

The Ultimate Theoretical End State of Protestantism:
MILLIONS of One True Churches, each with only ONE member, each denouncing all the others as Heretics and Apostates.

Michael in UK: 7. Providence, a medium size outfit, pretend to have nothing to do with any other trends or institutions.

8. Whatever her stances to people or events then or since, it is true to say Samantha is a fellow traumatised witness and it delighted and still delights Providence to hurt her.

Providence is a New Calvinist Southern Baptist church, also affiliated with The Gospel Coalition.

Aside from all the other issues, I have a big problem with how New Calvinist theology views women as derivative and created for the primary purpose of serving men and unable to make decisions for themselves. I question if someone who has attended a strongly New Cal church can view abused women with the dignity they deserve and able to separate their lives from abusive spouses. TGC regularly posts abhorrent stuff about women (and even used a child model for their recent modesty diatribe).

If Providence is hurting her, why hasn’t she left? It’s been almost 20 years since Brian was arrested and she’s still a member there.

Michael in UK,

Hi Michael in UK, I’m responding your first five numbered points.

“1. I am always uneasy when prominent people jump ship…”

In your opinion, who do you infer has jumped ship? Dee? Samantha? Someone else?=4545643

“2. Is a (not officially “official”) element in Samantha’s professional body exerting personal or indirect pressure?”

Please clarify: — By ‘professional body’ do you mean G.R.A.C.E.? Or do you mean some organisation that accredits lawyers and makes sure that accredited lawyers stick to the legal code of ethics in their state / nation?

I submit that it is possible that G.R.A.C.E. has exerted personal or indirect pressure on (a) Samantha, or (b) Dee.

“3. … Is it that G.R.A.C.E are going to be bad for Samantha, more than the other way round?”

Good question!

4. Nonetheless my statement, “It is far better for the lawyer to have an overt framework rather than “be volunteered”” always applies, whatever counter factors like these might co-exist. It would have been tactful of Samantha or indeed her prospective new employers to point this specific point out in public, instead of making informal “soundings” that caused distress and came over as ambiguous. Transparency and propriety are good bedfellows, they should be overtly mixed and matched more. Was their forgetting, a bad sign?”

Very good point!

“5. It’s commonplace for a person to be “manoeuvred” without their actual prior complicity.”

True. Hence me raising the possibility that Dee has been “manoeuvred” without her actual prior complicity. If another person or persons attempted to manoueuver Dee, they would have found it relatively easy to turn her mind because Dee (as she’s told us herself) was feeling somewhat guilty for what she wrote in her original post before she edited that post and called it Part 1.

I’m replying to Michael from UK’s numbered points 8 and 9.

Michael in UK

“8. Whatever her stances to people or events then or since, it is true to say Samantha is a fellow traumatised witness and it delighted and still delights Providence to hurt her.”

Michael, why do you believe that Samantha is a fellow traumatised witness? What evidence leads you to that conclusion?

“9. Bad organisations such as Providence love it when we “portmanteau” situations instead of pulling them apart.”

I agree! Furthermore, I think that Dee has somewhat “portmanteaud” this situation herself. Dee was triggered when G.R.A.C.E. approached her privately. I get that. I don’t judge Dee or anyone for being triggered. But now that Dee is disavowing her earlier distrust of G.R.A.C.E. and is stating that she trusts G.R.A.C.E., I am concerned that Dee might be failing to pull the matter apart because she just wants to move on and stop feeling the complexity of cognitive dissonance.

I understand from much personal experience how discomforting it can be to be triggered… and to experience cognitive dissonance. It’s like being on shifting sand, with adrenaline rushing through your body and being unsure how to deal with it. But Dee, you publicly opened the topic of whether G.R.A.C.E. is trustworthy or not. Ought you not take responsibility for unpacking and pulling that topic apart more? For example, Don’t you owe it to your TWW readers to investigate Samantha’s conduct at Providence after you left Providence — and to tell your readers what you have found out? And don’t you owe it to Samanantha to publicly apologise, if you find out that you maligned her?

Barbara Roberts,

“But some people (me included) are suspicious that G.R.A.C.E. is not free of corruption, and that G.R.A.C.E. is not standing up for truth and justice, and that G.R.A.C.E. is not whole-heartedly and transparently teaching or practising Biblical precepts. (IMO, it is often what they leave out – omit, fail to mention – that indicates they are falling short of Biblical precepts.)

I have heard privately from others who are suspicious that G.R.A.C.E. is not free of corruption. I have also heard privately from one or more individuals who witnessed with their own eyes corruption being carried out by G.R.A.C.E.”
+++++++++++++++++

i’m curious to know what ‘corruption’ means.

Also, what ‘biblical’ and ‘biblical precepts’ mean.

sounds very ominous…. but extremely vague.

although i imagine you are using the words with sincerity, they are catch-all words that some use as weapons to cast suspicion on their opponents & harm their reputation (based on nothing actually being true)

elastigirl: i’m curious to know what ‘corruption’ means.

Also, what ‘biblical’ and ‘biblical precepts’ mean.

sounds very ominous…. but extremely vague.

although i imagine you are using the words with sincerity, they are catch-all words that some use as weapons to cast suspicion on their opponents & harm their reputation (based on nothing actually being true)

I know that words like “corruption / biblical / biblical precepts” can and have been used as weapons to unjustly cast aspersions. I deplore such usage. I am using those words in the way any good dictionary such as the Oxford English Dictionary would define them.

Rather than me giving you definitions here, I suggest that it would be better for you to assess my understanding by reading what I have written on my blog cryingoutforjustice.blog and in my book “Not Under Bondage: Biblical Divorce for Abuse, Adultery and Desertion”.

I am not using those words as weapons. If you have doubts about my character or my motivation, I suggest you study what I have written at my blog and in my book.

elastigirl: not whole-heartedly and transparently teaching or practising Biblical precepts. (IMO, it is often what they leave out – omit, fail to mention – that indicates they are falling short of Biblical precepts.)

…”
+++++++++++++++++

… what ‘biblical’ and ‘biblical precepts’ mean.

sounds very ominous…. but extremely vague.

although i imagine you are using the words with sincerity, they are catch-all words that some use as weapons to cast suspicion

Elastigirl,

– all language (on every subject) alludes, and when there are several intersecting allusions we may have meaning

– fundamentalists who have radically shaped us all (but had not yet influenced me in my youngest day) say that the word is the thing (they replace God with themselves

– God sometimes says what He is saying by not saying what he is not saying (Holy Scripture is about the size of a long novel). When Christians try this as a “trick” we have to do due diligence, as Barbara points out, to check what it does for the situation and whether they are “up to” something.

– God means us to apply brain work all the time, in hermeneutics (the more the better), semiotics (the meanings in everything), quasi-indexicality (mind reading, including His), logic (the big version), and honest commonsense things like that. Roland Barthes and C S Peirce are very good on semiotics. Try Barthes’ essay on the topical “Plastic”. Barthes also commented on the industrialised religion of Ignatius Loyola.

– If a Christian – in “authority” or not – helps a second one preserve the integrity of their individuality in this tough world, and the second one ultimately survives the better for it, that is the fruit of the spiritual works of the first one, the crown they will be imputed with. Those who weaponised us, who despised Holy Spirit in us, were jealous of us, their works are likewise going to be tested and rewarded accordingly. (That is the Kingdom economy in Prov 31: 10-21, the Talents, Is 55, 58, 61, James . . .)

– This is about our subsequent works. Holy Spirit indwelling and empowerment – imparted in stages from before Ascension to after Ascension when they abandoned jealousy – is like power steering. We steer our day to day relating and praying, God tops up the benefit.

– Machinators don’t give us belief in our ongoing Saviour. They may themselves have been mistrained from young to stop with our former works, though these are no longer the barrier to God.

– Hence misunderstandings of perseverance, which is God’s fresh gift daily through us to each other, whereas they think it is their superficially magic once-in-a-lifetime ticket, and we small people of course need to be continually browbeat, or outmanoeuvred. HTH.

ishy: Providence is a New Calvinist Southern Baptist church, also affiliated with The Gospel Coalition.

Aside from all the other issues, I have a big problem with how New Calvinist theology views women … unable to make decisions for themselves. I question if someone who has attended a strongly New Cal church can view abused women with the dignity they deserve and able to separate their lives from abusive spouses. TGC regularly posts abhorrent stuff about women

Ishy & Emily, the superapostle Carson’s pretence (having written “From triumphalism to maturity”) over TGC isn’t credible: incidentally designed to stop men and boys thinking also. Thus, it’s not unnatural that we might ask, could it be “agreed” someone with that background would “ostensibly” be a “catch”?

This doesn’t contradict what her acquaintances have stated in their comments about their relationship with her, these are simply factors one hasn’t yet excluded from the bigger picture. If she has got the skills, she still needs to exert independence of mind from churches. I mainly joined in because I was trying to help get the thread away from all-or-nothing thinking.

Michael in UK: This doesn’t contradict what her acquaintances have stated in their comments about their relationship with her, these are simply factors one hasn’t yet excluded from the bigger picture. If she has got the skills, she still needs to exert independence of mind from churches. I mainly joined in because I was trying to help get the thread away from all-or-nothing thinking.

It’s not just theological, though. I’ve been to that church. I knew Brian Goodrich. I knew that situation and saw the rush to put the pastors in a good light. And I was seeing the same thing (mostly on Twitter, which bled through here) to do the same with GRACE and Ms. Kirkpatrick. And I didn’t see anybody else until Emily questioning her theological beliefs in light of that kind of work and the claims the GRACE has been making about supporting victims.

I feel like her beliefs are just as important as her credentials. She attends a church that tried to cover up a child molester. She attends a church that believes wives have no reason to leave their husbands, even if they are being abused. She attends a church that believes that members cannot leave if they are being spiritually abused, nor are they allowed to vote on leaders or church actions. She is a member of a church that believes if the elders at that church told her to do or not to do something, she’d be expected to do it without question or face church discipline. She’s attended that church for at least 17 years because that’s how long it’s been since Brian was arrested. I know that the church believes those things because I’ve been there personally. And I recently went and looked at their website and they still follow that ideology.

New Calvinism’s authoritarian ideology is spiritually abusive in its nature, but it tends to allow abuse particularly for women and children, who have no power in the structure of the church. There is no room in their theology for independent thinkers if you are not male and a pastor.