Getting over a painful experience is much like crossing monkey bars. You have to let go at some point in order to move forward.” –C.S. Lewis
Let me begin by saying that I’m sorry for saying that I could not support G.R.A.C.E. I do support them with my whole heart. I hope that they will forgive me.
We had a small group with a focused mission.
Let me explain what I experienced to bring some clarity to this process. The whole experience at Providence Baptist Church was disconcerting for all of us. I remember telling one of the men in our group that I was sorry that he had to endure this mess. He said to me something along the lines of “I’m glad I saw this. I have seen a side of the church that I didn’t know existed.”
There were eight of us who confronted the church on one particular point. A young teen had reported that Doug Goodrich had encouraged nudity for the guys who were in his cabin at a summer camp. This was reported by his parents to the youth pastors in a meeting. The parents were part of our group of 8. The pastors blew it off, calling it “locker room humor.” Goodrich would go on to horribly molest a number of boys. Thirteen would testify but there were likely more.
He was discovered by the police molesting another boy in a park. Our group contended that had the youth pastors reported the disturbing behavior of Goodrich at the camp, it would have avoided another year of molestations. The youth pastors denied such a meeting took place. I believe this young teen told the truth but nobody came to him and admitted they were wrong. This is all that we wanted to get at. Nothing else except justice for the teen boy who had to endure Goodrich’s behavior at the camp. We did not deal with any other topic.
Legal language was unsettling to us
I was naive as were the others. The attacks by the church leaders startled me. However, we persevered under tremendous stress. Then, they began an internal investigation. It was a disturbing process. It got even worse when the internal review discovered that the law did not require the pastors to report what happened. From what I heard, the pastors were thrilled. We did not believe we should talk to Samantha given that there there was a legal issue involved. Never, ever talk to a lawyer without another lawyer who has your best interests at heart The church leaders were concerned that the church could be sued. Then the tables were turned and we believed that the pastors were going to attempt to sue us.
At this point, there was a comment made that we had decided, on my blog, not to name the church until the senior pastor retired. That isn’t correct. During that disturbing time, we were being asked who our lawyer was. To us, right or wrong, this meant they might sue us. We received great advice from Jeff Anderson but we decided, at that point, we would not name the church or pastors on the blog I was starting to write. Please understand. At this point, we were worried, disappointed, and dismayed.
I have always loved the church and the anger I had experienced from the church leaders was distressing. Let me give you an example. They spread the rumor that my marriage was in trouble. I heard this from a number of people A short time after we left the church, I wrote about this. This elder came to my husband and asked him to forgive him for starting and spreading that rumor. Can you imagine what else was being said? He was the only one who ever apologized to us, the parents, or the young man.
‘The internal investigation was disquieting.
Because of this experience, we, rightly or wrongly, began to distrust the church leaders. We also began to understand how problematic an internal investigation can be. After we left the church, my husband and I were disappointed as we traveled to a few churches in the area and saw a number of things that I have written about. We are grateful to have landed in a wonderful Lutheran church. It was there that we began to let go of that experience. It was also there that, during confession, I knew that I needed to write this.
G.R.A.C.E came to me and I was reactive.
So, when G.R.A.C.E came to me and asked me to tell them what happened, it brought everything out that I had put away.
- the disappointment
- the ugly rumors
- the rejection of a victim’s true story,
- the disappointing internal investigation
- the litigious comments
- the expressions of hatred in a sermon
I was so surprised that I began to experience what happened in the past all over again. When they went ahead with the hiring, I felt it was akin to the rejection on the part of the pastors and the internal investigation. I was disconcerted by the intensity of my feelings. I haven’t been able to sleep well since this started. I think this also contributed to my response for which I’m remorseful. I told my husband that I wished they had never come to me in the first place. I even wondered if I should stop blogging and volunteer in some of the outreach programs of my church. He disagreed. He believes that all of this will help me to become more humble and less reactive. He made me smile when he said, “You could have been sweeter.” That is his way of saying that I should have been measured in my response. He’s right.
Although I told the truth as I perceived it, I am still disturbed and disappointed in my reaction. As I keep my eye on the goal to prevent and expose abuse in the church, I must continue to speak what I believe to be true. However, I need my responses to be more measured and nuanced. In that vein, I am sure Samantha will do what is expected of her. I wish I had met her under different circumstances.
I humbly ask to be forgiven by G.R.A.C.E. I am so, so sorry.
Thank you for posting this, Dee, and working through the details and reactions. Much appreciated.
“I wished they had never come to me in the first place. I even wondered if I should stop blogging and volunteer in some of the outreach programs of my church. He disagreed. He believes that all of this will help me to become more humble and less reactive.”
+++++++++++++++++++++++
you do a highly meaningful, necessary service here, dee. i appreciate and respect you immensely for your integrity.
life is messy at times. we do our best with the complex things dished out (well, *some* people do their best. like you.).
and we come out the other side more diamond-like — with highly valuable chiseling, beauty, wisdom and understanding, tall and proud (in a very good sense of the word).
for the record, i’ll take unvarnished over sweet any day of the year.
(i’ve still got many years’ old canker sores from being on the receiving end of ‘christian’ sweetness.)
and also for the record, i thought you asked valid questions previously.
You have experienced trauma! But that is why you have so much empathy! Don’t be too hard on yourself— just keep going!
elastigirl,
I do feel I told the truth.
> I am sure Samantha will do what is expected of her.
I’m so sorry, Dee, both for you and Samantha, and the circumstances public and (I’m sure) private.
Thank you for speaking up and standing by the truth. I appreciate the conclusions of the even more measured Dee here, but the other Dee was pretty fair about the situation you’ve described.
This is light years ahead and the total flip side of what we see play out in many churches and their orgs and their leaders (lay & paid) regarding CSA. Reference: https://www.houstonchronicle.com/local/investigations/abuse-of-faith/
How about the folks still supporting RZ? Hybels and/or WC? Etc. We could go on, it’s in the news and the courts daily in this country, and probably globally wherever there is “church”. The US has exported their dirt (they swept under the rug) via the mission field.
So, thank you, God bless, and ever grateful for your work, including clarifications. Everyone is wrong at some point, but only those seeking truth admit it. Truth seekers. The right side of history, the right side of the great human divide of truth seekers and truth concealers.
Appreciate the clarification and sharing epiphany.
Ditto.
And thank you, Dee, for both posts.
I did not go through what Dee did, but I do know, as I mentioned in a previous post, that attorneys, when they have been hired, work for their client, period. If they do not do all they legally can, including getting info out of any potential source, they are not fulfilling their job. If this lawyer was hired by the church leadership, her job, in talking to sources, is to get all the info they can to protect the church from legal liability… it would be malpractice if she did not…
This is the fundamental problem which has been highlight many, many times on this blog…. “legal” and “spiritual” are getting mixed together….. many of us pew peons are not use to this…
I have professionally learned this… in fact, the lawyers that I work with have told me that when I am an expert witness on a patent issue, it is good I have a track record of working with both sides (plaintiff and defendant), just as many patent lawyers do….
So, just as Dee has highlighted about Church “covenants” that can be turned into legal documents, so can such “investigations” , especially when depraved crimes of child sexual abuse are involved.
This is another reason church leadership should IMMEDIATELY get the police involved when felonious crimes are committed… while not all police are “neutral”, there usually is no “spiritual” “authority” underlying their investigation…..
Yeah, I don’t feel like I can recommend GRACE yet, because I still have a lot of questions. And that situation was one of the ones that drove me to this blog in the first place.
Watching multiple classmates be arrested for molesting children in a tiny school and nobody but a few other women seemed to care was really upsetting. Everyone was in such a big hurry to either sweep it under the rug or exonerate the pastors. That situation happened when a lot of people in the church thought when any Christian did anything truly awful that it had to be hidden or non-Christians “might get the wrong idea”. It was in all the newspapers, so I don’t know how they thought they were going to keep pretending nothing happened, but they sure tried.
ishy,
At the core, I wonder if the people that try to “cover it up”, really believe what they preach? Heck, the Bible is FULL of “spiritual” people doing bad things.. it is the human condition, and the Church is suppose to be”the light”…
throughout history, if the church did the “right thing” with true love and grace, the church would be in a much different position….
PS… to me, the big question is: who pays G.R.A.C.E. As has been said many times…. follow the money..
I can certainly understand your initial reaction.
Even from the long-eye, I have some serious doubts, too.
I’ve always been a bit uncomfortable with that. I have wondered if there’s a different way to do independent investigations, but I can’t think of one. And if there was, would it honestly get used?
Thank you for being a Christ-like human Dee.
ishy,
If just a small part of all the donations that have gone to all the “big time” clowns that we have read about on this blog had gone to set up an endowment that would pay for an org like G.R.A.C.E. so that they would be financially independent, AND have enough cash to fight the frivolous suits that some of these big time “clowns” could throw at an org like G.R.A.C.E., it would potentially go along way.
I use to naively believe in the “independent” financial accounting outfit for Evangelicals… I DO NOT any more, but they were (are) supported by “membership” dues, so they are just a “trade group” for evangelicals..
To me, your description of events sounds like you’ve gone through a traumatic experience. Your response is from that trauma, all the alarms were triggered, and RIGHTLY SO. Don’t be hard on yourself.
Jeffrey Chalmers,
“If just a small part of all the donations that have gone to all the “big time” clowns that we have read about on this blog had gone to set up an endowment that would pay for an org like G.R.A.C.E. so that they would be financially independent,”
+++++++++++++++++++++++
just what i was thinking.
from “An Open Letter to RZIM from Brad & Lori Anne Thompson”, https://julieroys.com/open-letter-to-rzim-from-brad-lori-anne-thompson/
“Neither Lori Anne nor I felt we could withstand the public and private cost of litigation with someone so powerful.
Mr. Zacharias’ legal counsel informed our legal counsel that we faced long, protracted litigation and that Mr. Zacharias had a donor who would cover any and all legal costs that Mr. Zacharias incurred.
We had/have no such philanthropists. At the time of settlement, having five children at home in Canada, it was unthinkable to have the next two or more years consumed by Mr. Zacharias, who had already consumed so much.”
————————-
evangelicalism’s priorities are so screwed up. too many donors are lazy, gullible, irresponsible, can’t be bothered to do their due diligence…
they use their faith as if it’s ‘magic’.
magic so magical that they’re unmoved by destroyed lives right in front of them — magic will take of everything. magic will take care of them. let them eat cake.
meanwhile, the destroyed lives quietly bleed and ache and suffer loss.
gaaaaawwwwwwddddddd it’s time for a revolution.
with these so-called ‘independent investigations’ being the new fad in evangelicalism, seems to me they’re becoming big business.
especially since Guideposts inflates the market value of ‘independent investigations’ to $700/hour.
.
.
and considering Guidepost advertises itself “with the objective of providing the information required to . . . solve problems and protect assets.”
and their “private client protection program” as a combination of investigation, risk mitigation and crisis management “tailored to the needs of high-net-worth and high-profile” individuals or offices
and “We’re very good at making the problems go away with the least amount of repercussions for the client”
https://julieroys.com/red-flags-firm-investigate-abuse-sbc/
.
.
….well, i can’t help but wonder how the ‘independent investigation’ industry is being shaped.
i can’t help but wonder to what degree GRACE is exploiting opportunism right now. This really is a pivotal moment
Dee,
A long time ago I worked for a small school district where something just seemed “off.” It was my first administrative position, and i was extremely excited, but someone took me aside at the small school where I worked and told me to be careful. Two years later, I knew why. I had already decided to resign and move on at the end of the year, but at that point an investigation was done and I was deposed. I was honest. Nothing came of the “investigation”, and I found the fact that I had legally bared my soul to an attorney to be the most frustrating part of it. 20 years later, the unethical principal was finally found out for his money issues and fired. There were so many fires that had to be put out at the same time that the district finally got a clue.
The good part of that experience-I put my trust in God and not in the investigation. I knew I had done the right thing by sharing what I did in the deposition and resigning under protest (I specifically listed in my letter of resignation that it was due to the principal’s behavior). You did the right thing a number of years ago. Hopefully, the lawyer in question will also continue to do the right thing. But, most importantly, you trusted God and did the right thing.Your blog helps, and many times rescues, so many from difficult situations, and that is something to be proud of.
elastigirl,
Jeffrey Chalmers,
“attorneys, when they have been hired, work for their client, period. If they do not do all they legally can, including getting info out of any potential source, they are not fulfilling their job. If this lawyer was hired by the church leadership, her job, in talking to sources, is to get all the info they can to protect the church from legal liability… it would be malpractice if she did not…”
+++++++++++++++++++
…..and i can’t help but wonder why GRACE would hire an attorney who seems to have taken a job expressly to protect the assets of the enablers of child sexual assault, which of course inherently harms the victims.
**NO ONE FORCES AN ATTORNEY TO TAKE ON A CASE THAT INFRINGES ON THEIR CONSCIENCE, THEIR ETHICAL VALUES, THEIR SENSE OF RIGHT AND WRONG**
the attorney wilfully chooses to take on a case.
.
.
yes, gawddammit, i *do* have questions.
it’s a pivotal moment, as i see it, for this thing called ‘independent investigations’. greedy opportunism is in the air… can’t you smell it?
is GRACE reinventing themselves to take advantage?
or perhaps GRACE could be the leader and shape the industry:
–find wealthy donors who will side with the powerless victims instead of the powerful professional christians…
–…to fund overhead
–and be a vehicle for attorneys to fulfill pro bono work.
–a commitment to making it a true ministry and not a wealth-building enterprise
.
.
is there any reason why GRACE do this pro bono, with wealthy donor committed support?
i mean, any *good* reason.
elastigirl,
“is there any reason why GRACE do this pro bono, with wealthy donor committed support?”
++++++++++++++++
hell, RZIM in its quest to reinvent itself can redirect all their wealthy donors and partner with GRACE.
howz that for a change?!
(but please change out your board first, RZIM)
elastigirl,
“is there any reason why GRACE do this pro bono, with wealthy donor committed support?
i mean, any *good* reason.”
++++++++++++++++++
oh crap — “is there any reason why GRACE can’t do this pro bono….”
Well, I trust Dee to do the right thing. She is far more Christlike than the peope she exposes here.
I have to say, though, that I am a bit confused. I see that you, Dee, have changed your mind about GRACE, but I don’t see a clear reason why.
I’m sure I’m being dense about something here, but did the lawyer in question work for the church, the victims, or neither? Was she clear up front about who she was working for? I’m wondering why you changed your mind.
Setting aside the group and the attorney matter and whether there was anything for which to apologize, there is a legitimate reality that dealing in such intense and emotional subject matters are not without their challenges. Part of that can be remorse and revisiting after hitting the send button.
Been there, and had to apologize and ask for forgiveness. It doesn’t change the fact that the subject being addressed needed to be addressed, and that further follow up by me on the subject seem to be called for going forward. And it did help me seek to prioritize perspectives like Proverbs 21:23 — “Whoso is keeping his mouth and his tongue, Is keeping from adversities his soul.” It’s an ongoing challenge, but we can pray for help for improvement.
I too am wondering why Dee changed her mind. I get that Dee has now realised and processed her emotions that were triggered when G.R.A.C.E. approached her prior to appointing Samantha. But I don’t think Dee has explained fully her reasons for changing her mind and deciding that GRACE is trustworthy.
Questions I raised in the comments thread at Part 1 and which have still not been answered:
Has Samantha Kilpatrick ever privately or publicly denounced and rebuked the leaders of Providence Church for how badly they handled that case of abuse?
Has Samantha ever personally apologised and sought forgiveness from the families and victims who were injured by the way Providence mishandled the case?
Has Samantha ever publicly apologised to the Providence church congregation (new and old, current and former) for her failure to expose and denounce the way Providence mishandled the case?
Dee, do you know for certain whether Samantha has done any of those things? If you have no evidence that Samantha has done those things, how can you be so confident that G.R.A.C.E. (which now employs Samantha) is trustworthy?
A broader question, raised by others here, is how can any “independent investigation agency” can be truly independent when it is paid by the organisation which it is investigating?
The other is to continue to let journalists investigate and bloggers and the community to raise questions. The church doesn’t like that option and fights it, but it won’t stop now that everyone knows how much the church has hidden over the years.
Which is why this discussion shouldn’t stop now that the questions have been raised…
(from OP): “Although I told the truth as I perceived it, I am still disturbed and disappointed in my reaction. As I keep my eye on the goal to prevent and expose abuse in the church, I must continue to speak what I believe to be true. However, I need my responses to be more measured and nuanced.”
Isn’t that whey they call it “triggering”? Something brings back the emotions and the gut responses that happened with a traumatic experience. Absolutely understandable.
I see the wisdom of this EXCEPT FOR ONE THING:
Dee has drawn a line and as this is her blog and her decision, we must respect her voice here FOR HER SAKE.
we may not comprehend all that we know completely, and we may not know all the details (even more likely), but for reasons we may not fully understand, Dee has spoken. She needs for us to listen to her. To what is left unsaid, we may still ponder, yes. Butas to what Dee has said, we need to be respectful, for Dee’s sake.
That.
That.
That.
(And it can be so hard….recognizing what (or when or if) something has been triggered….balancing communicating (whether or not triggered) without losing the essence of oneself….)
That.
During my 3+ years of being fired at Calvin Seminary, I finally got outside independent mediation (through an appeal to the CRC denominational chief). The 2 pricy mediators were funded by the wealthy oil-man seminary board president, and that point was made obvious throughout the 6 weeks of investigation. I was sure the whole process would thus be seriously tilted in favor of the 3-man administration, but surprisingly the 2 mediators came down decidedly on my side. So, a big win for me? Hardly. The board president refused to release the report to the full board and other relevant parties, and I was forbidden to speak of it. Good reason, however. The original report came in on a “smudged” FAX. (I certainly had no trouble reading it.) I tell this and much more in my recent book, “Fired at 57.” Sorry about this shameless self-promotion.
My primary point is that no matter how fair mediators are, there’s always opportunity to screw the victim. GO Dee!!!
And that “something” could be something trivial. Like acquiring a piece of fantasy art. That actually happened to me in January 2010. The circumstances around my acquiring that art piece triggered a flashback of my long-ago breakup with Ann – at full emotional intensity.
Law Enforcement is paid by the taxes of the General Public.
When a alleged case of child sexual abuse arises in the community at large, the local LE does an independent investigation UNLESS the alleged predator is a member of local LE, in which case, an outside LE agency (BCA, FBI, AG, another jurisdiction) is called in as outsiders to do the independent investigation.
Taxpayers pay for all investigations to keep their communities safe and predator free.
Churches could/should come up with similar standards. Churches are only as healthy as the people who run them.
“The Innocent Man”, Netflix series and book by John Grisham, illustrates in real life how justice goes wrong when the people in charge are corrupt, lazy, and/or ignorant. Grisham, on camera, discusses the pitfalls and weaknesses of our DOJ when individuals (the DA, detectives, police chief, judges, etc.) running things in a community are amok. The fallout for victims is absolutely evil, even fatal.
Participate in church at one’s own discretion and risk. Mind and pocketbook control can occur in the pulpit sanctuary. Child sexual abuse may be happening in the Sunday School, camp, and Vacation Bible School programs. Violation of minors by adult leaders can take place in the youth group.
How church leaders respond to reporting creates either a safe place for salt-of-the-earth participants OR a hunting ground for predators to prey on these very same salt-of-the-earth people. Yes, church leadership may create a Hunting Ground, i.e., a very safe place for predators and their enablers. Deadly and devastating for everyone else.
brad/futuristguy,
You’re a nice person, Brad.
elastigirl,
I tried tot ask the question that I asked so long ago. At this point, I think it’s time to put it away. It was too long ago.
I was speaking in general about if there was a viable way to do an independent investigation and not specifically on this issue.
But dee has not shut down comments on this or the other post, nor have I seen her ask us not to talk about it. I don’t think you should speak for her.
Karen,
Did you know that I had not considered the fact that I could have been traumatized when I stepped into help a victim and his family? Your comment is helping me to understand that. It was one of the hardest things I’ve ever gone through. My husband agrees. I have 5 traumatic events happen in my life. The other four dealt with the health of my family. I still get anxious when one of them gets sick…overly anxious.
My husband and I spoke about this and both agreed I should respond. He was thinking of words I should attempt to emulate. Measured was one of them. To be frank, I liked his thought, coming from the fact we’ve now lived in the South for most of our lives: I need to be a bit sweeter!
Ruth A. Tucker,
Ruth, were you a Professor at Westmont College at one point?
This happens frequently globally among humanitarian aid workers.
The civil war in Liberia was very life-changing for the aid workers. A book written by three there: “Emergency Sex and Other Desperate Measures: A True Story From Hell On Earth” [Cain, Kenneth, Postlewait, Heidi, Thomson, Andrew] describes their experience.
Doctors Without Borders limits deployment times because of the severe trauma for personnel serving in conflict zones. There’s a documentary out there produced by their Bordeaux, France base (in English). A semi-retired doctor from Kentucky is interviewed before and after his mission. At the second interview, he is hardly recognizable – his demeanor and appearance had changed so much by his experience. Traumatic.
Humanitarian aid workers take care of themselves, it’s part of their mission. Take care of yourself, Dee. We all love and appreciate you.
Jeffrey Chalmers,
No, Jeffrey. Never employed there. The closest I came to Westmont was a summer course at Fuller Seminary.
dee,
Dee,
I am so glad my comment helped you. Several others have also used the word “trigger” which completely applies.
Who defines the level of anxiety appropriate to trauma? No one but your own body. So “overly anxious” is not a thing. The hardest part is for me to notice when because of a trigger I am not thinking as clearly as I could. Usually I realize it after time has passed, but I have found people to be gracious with me. If they are not, I find other people.
We did not choose to be involved in traumatic things. The Spirit of God is healing us but in his time.
No matter the blowback from some, I am attempting to tell the truth. My husband and I discussed this at length since he was one of the 8 involved. I wanted him to agree that what I was sayng was justified. I don’t usually do that since he trusts me. He was most helpful as we reviewed what happened I try so hard to tell the truth no matter what detractors might say.
In this situation, the lawyer was not hired by the church. She was asked to volunteer her time to investigate hat happened.
However, you hit the nail on the head (as usual.) The investigators discovered that the pastors would not have to report according to the law. It was a happy day at PBC for thee pastors.
I believe that such thinking was present in my former church as well as many churches that I write about.
dee,
I should also add that I have been reading this blog for years without commenting. It was the concern that Dee be kind to herself that made me comment.
The community in this blog and the desire for truth here really comforts me.
It is my understanding that the church that wishes to investigate pays BRACE. GRACE can only go into a church or ministry when invited.
Yeah, my initial reaction was one that I now know is a typical response when someone has been terribly hurt in a process. In this case, the young man and his family were not believed. I am friends with the mom and I hurt for her. I believe she told the truth.
done one,
If you could read my mind during our time of confession, you would see my many faults. But, like many, I’m pressing on as I learn more and more about myself.
What a fascinating idea.
I think that you are right. Thank you for helping me to see this. It will help me the next time this gets brought up.
elastigirl,
Your entire comment is very thought-provoking. I find myself getting mad for what LoriAnee went through.
As in “And the Money Will Come In in Buckets”?
They don’t call it “The Jesus Racket” for nothing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kyo0XUGLYeY
elastigirl,
It is my understanding that most investigations require an independent audit after it is finished. Could it be these two groups will work together-one to investigate and one to audit?
Does anyone out there know of any other investigation groups? Surely Guideposts costs are inflated because they usually serve more wealthy clients. I believe from Julie Roy’s post that Guideposts has been involved in helping some dicey individuals.
Great idea – otherwise there will always be a Conflict of Interest.
As in “It’s hard to see something when your paycheck depends on you NOT seeing it.”
Two words: MONEY TALKS.
Thank you for your comment. I have a question. Do you feel yourself getting upset when the investigation gets brought up again? I am trying to figure out how to deal with my frustration in the matter.
You DO know that once you get outside the Christianese or New Age Woo-Woo bubbles, “Spiritual” means “NOT real”?
I have heard that this is a lengthy process. There are obvious legalities involved as well. The final write-up is incredibly lengthy. I would imagine that such investigations are very costly.
A specific type of Magick called BIBLIOMANCY (Book Magic).
Truthfully, I never, except for a few moments, didn’t trust GRACE. I trust Boz and Diane Langberg who are on the Board. There are others on the board I trust. I trust one of the investgators , Dvaid Pittman. In fact, about a week ago, I asked if I could write his story.
Ad I thought this through, I knew I could trust GRACE because I trust some of the people there to do the right thing. Doing the right thing doesn’t mean that they can make mistakes just like me. I hope this makes sense.
Funny thing, I usually do that. It was the memories of what happened that threw me over the edge. Frankly, I was surprised at myself.
Any organization can err in how they handle things. We are fallible human beings. I trust many of the people at GRACE since I know them or know of their reputation.I know a couple well and they have really good hearts and believe in this venture fully.
As I know from Lutheran teaching, we are all simultaneously saints and sinners. That includes me.
I left PBC in late 2008 and do not know what transpired after that. I assure hope what you say was done.
I now know this of myself. I am triggered by that former event being discussed. *Trigger* is the right word.
I have heard of this technique-holding back the review- in a number of cases I’ve been involved with. I need to read your book. You are welcome to promote your books here. The same goes for the others.
When you think of the mediation and firing, do you still get upset? I’m asking for myself. I need to figure out my response a bit better,
Wow. Art-induced trigger! I’m so sorry that happened. Can you still hang your art or is it too hurtful from an emotional standpoint?
Okay. She volunteered her time. She was not hired.
Okay, the law lets them not report. (A law that should be changed in my mind.) But ‘morally’ how the heck do Pastors not report the man and make sure he does not continue to abuse other children?? To me, this is awful and I wouldn’t care what the law says. I would leave a church where pastors didn’t protect those boys.
Wow What a comment. Thank you for your kindness.
You will know them by their fruit.
ishy,
Hello Ishy,
you may be right
thanks for responding
Dee–kudos and great respect for how you are handling this. And also quiet urge for you not to denigrate your first response or assume it sinful. Sometimes our spidey senses do pick up on some hinkiness, even if unintended hinkiness on the part of the other party.
Sounds like you remain sensitive to your own faults. Don’t follow Luther down that rabbit hold to the point he did, confessing for hours on end. Remember that yes, you are still both saint and sinner BUT when you were saved you became a new creation.
And yes, I know that phrase “when you were saved” is enough for the LCMS to toss me on my tin ear. So be it. The pandemic has had the wonderful effect on me (amid its horrors) of distilling what I really believe. For me, the only purpose of the church is to see people who are lost become people who are saved. Adrian Rogers told the story that if two people leave Miami headed to Atlanta, and both arrive safely, one by plane and one by car, the one who came by car is likely to know exactly when he entered Georgia and the one by plane is not. He would say in the same way some folks are saved and know the point in time, others are saved and just know they are saved.
And for those put off by my phrase “only purpose” do not think I don’t realize the church is often a family, a source of comfort and aid, and a real strength to folks. I know it is. But I just don’t see those as the PURPOSE of the church, rather as wonderful gifts from God when we pursue that purpose.
Ruth A. Tucker,
Thanks… there was (is?) a husband and wife team with the last name of Tucker, if I remember correctly
In my case, Dee, so many positive things resulted from the terrible treatment I was given. Most of all I was put in touch with Myra, a professor of education who was teaching at Calvin College. She had been treated very badly—even during remission from her terminal pancreatic cancer. We became good friends and connected on so many levels. Through her I became acquainted with her husband John. After she died, John and I got to know each other, and the rest is history—happily married almost 17 years! We both adore Myra. I have pictures of her and John in my study.
In your case, Dee, I really beg to differ with you. I’ve read the account, and I just don’t think you acted badly. Sure you might have said things differently, but you’re involved in SOOO much stuff related to your blog. If I were the “offended” party, I would say don’t mention it. But I have a think skin.
Please email me your address. (I thought I had it somewhere but can’t find it.) I want to send you a copy of “Fired at 57.”
It’s almost like Dee was yelled at and bullied into an apology… Very curious about the reason for the change of heart.
Jeffrey Chalmers,
Well, very interesting. I just checked the internet. There’s not just a Tucker, but more than one at Westmont, including a Ruth Tucker.
Chloe Howard ’22 grew up wearing Westmont T-shirts and attending basketball games on family visits to Santa Barbara. The daughter of two alums and the granddaughter of two longtime education professors (Gayle and Ruth Tucker),
Trailer for a vid doc about MSF (Doctors w/o Borders):
https://youtu.be/mM3Na9a2mzw “Living in Emergency”.
“This is like getting thrown in with the lions in the Colosseum,” said an MSF field doctor (humanitarian aid volunteer in a conflict zone).
We’ve had relatives serve. Their infield time was limited to 6 months, followed by not just physical but more importantly, mental health checks and debriefing at the US MSF headquarters in NYC.
At that time (things change), MSF only accepted 10% of the medical personnel who applied to volunteer. Volunteered, on their own vacation or dime. All professionally licensed but MSF accepted only 10% as qualified for this type of mission.
My guess is, Dee, that at times, you feel like that infield MSF doctor, “thrown in with the lions in the Colosseum”.
God bless you, Dee. Frontline work in the Kingdom. On behalf of many, including orphans and widows, the most vulnerable, as the Bible notes.
Oh, look. An innuendo.
Sooner or later (hopefully sooner) it will be changed, because child sex abuse is a CRIME in all 50 States.
When they’re faced with a choice of reporting or going down for complicity, they’ll change their tune.
Either way the gavel’s gonna’ come down hard and heavy.
They changed the law last year to make clergy mandated reporters, but it doesn’t apply to this situation, unfortunately.
Shouldn’t matter in how the church handles evil. The old Spike Lee “Do the right thing” is applicable. Like, is this real church or fake church, no matter where the laws of the land stand at any point in time? Where does Almighty God stand on this issue, this event – how does that apply to this situation? The question.
Does the Bible read: “Do what you can get away with” insofar as the laws of the land, who is watching, and public opinion are concerned?
With regard to “Do what you can get away with”, God is no policeman-around-the-corner guy. God clearly sees right to the deepest regions of the heart 24/7 without exception. Better than night vision.
The only get-out-of-jail free card in the Bible seems to be at the foot of the cross of Jesus in complete honesty about offenses WITH Biblical reparation ACTION à la Matthew 3.8, Luke 3.8, and Zacchaeus in Luke 19 paying 4 x what he took. 4x what was taken.
Church can be deceptive in how low the standards are set by leaders & community. Is God cool with these low benchmarks? The question, again.
Totally agree, but a lot of church leaders are terrified of being sued or just getting a bad reputation from an abuser on staff. You see what people really believe in situations like this.
Maybe it’s just me, but truly I don’t believe that the DOJ and Almighty God in Heaven always line up.
Watching John Grisham’s “The Innocent Man” on Netflix pretty much cleared that up, when DNA (well, science, but ah, yes, some churches/preachers will have none of that either) got someone out of jail who’d been wrongly put away for 36 years.
Seems like Christians who worship God Almighty would be doing better, not worse, than the DOJ. Seems like, in many cases, the church is way behind the curve instead of ahead. Seems like.
That, too.
Peter Marshall, Scotsman in DC, told a lawmaker, “Do you just put your finger in the air to see which way the wind blows, then make your decisions?” – or something like that, in “A Man Called Peter”.
Weak decision-making.
nice of you to apologize but tbh you can’t take back what you said, and what you said was deeply, DEEPLY problematic. you have a significant platform that demands greater responsibility and accountability. please, please do better.
dee,
Dee,
I was able to put it behind me, but It has been two decades. However I do have a spidey sense about legally iffy situations which led me to leave a couple churches and one job because some things didn’t seem quite right. I have settled in a church that isn’t perfect , but appropriate safeguards seem to be in place.
dee,
“If you could read my mind during our time of confession, you would see my many faults. But, like many, I’m pressing on as I learn more and more about myself.”
+++++++++++++++++
i wonder…. i wonder if Jesus Christ had thoughts that were less than ‘puritan’ (let’s say).
i mean, i wonder if thoughts and the processing of thoughts is neutral — anger at circumstances and anger at people, fear, anxiety, jealousy, regret, dread,…
is there even a line between a feeling and a thought? i doubt it.
.
.
maybe it’s the wilful decisions we make as a result of thought processing that count.
i think we beat ourselves up way, WAY too much. i think christians are susceptible to gradations of paranoia.
it’s unnecessary.
Stewart, are we to assume you’ve never made a mistake in life that you felt the need to apologize for? Would you post a comment like this to a man’s blog site? Please, please do better in being so self righteous.
She apologized and does not owe you an explanation.
She gave an explanation anyway. She stated that she trusts many of the people at GRACE and she named them.
But that does not appear good enough for some.
Thanks for replying to my comment, Dee.
I am comfortable with saying that all regenerate people are simultaneously saints and sinners, and that they all have a battle between the spirit and the flesh until they leave this mortal coil.
You say you trust many of the people at GRACE since you know them or know of their reputation. And you say you know a couple [of the people at GRACE] well and they have really good hearts and believe in this venture fully.
Doesn’t the Bible say that only God knows the heart? With all due respect, isn’t it wise to bear in mind the possibility that you might be have formed an incorrect view of someone’s character because you lack some of the necessary information?
I understand and respect that you are still working through how you responded to the trigger. So you may not yet feel up to considering what I am about to suggest. If so, you might like to put it on the back burner and re-visit it later.
As I understand it, your mission at this blog is to expose abuse in churches and in particular to expose the way churches mishandle disclosures of abuse. You say that you left PBC in late 2008 and you do not know what transpired after that. You assuredly hope that Samantha Kilpatrick has privately and/or publicly denounced and rebuked the leaders of Providence Church for how badly they handled the case of abuse that occurred prior to 2008, and that she has personally apologised and sought forgiveness from the families and victims who were injured by the way PBC mishandled the case, and that she has publicly apologised to the PBC congregation (new and old, current and former) for her failure to expose and denounce the way Providence mishandled the case.
I suggest you do what you can to find out whether Samantha has done those things.
If Samantha has done those things since 2008, then you can be more confident that G.R.A.C.E. has appointed a woman of integrity. If you find out that Samantha has not done those things, then I suggest you would want to review your support of G.R.A.C.E.
To have confidence in G.R.A.C.E. (or in any organistion) I believe it is necessary to look at the actions and behaviour of the people in that organisation who have positions of influence and authority in that organisation. Having confidence simply because of ‘feelings’ is not wise. I am not saying your confidence in G.R.A.C.E. is based solely on your feelings, Dee. I am only pointing out to you the complexities that are worth bearing in mind.
I speak from a fair bit of experience. I’m a survivor of church abuse, sexual abuse, domestic abuse, and abuse by “victim advocates”.
Thank you, Dee, for showing the world what grace looks like.
Thank you, Dee, for showing us what grace looks like.
Dee, another comment. I have no doubt you weren’t as “sweet” as you could have been. Lord knows, I wasn’t very sweet much of the time after I was fired. But you performed an incredible service by putting GRACE on notice. They’re being watched, as they, like every other organization should be. They’re not perfect as many of us perhaps assumed they were. PLEASE keep up the good work, and know that sometimes even good people might have their feelings hurt in the process.
Barbara Roberts,
I was “almost” a victim of sex abuse. I have told this story before on TWW, but it is worth noting that in 1973-74 I was being groomed by my 7-8th grade science teacher at my fundamentalist Baptist school.. several years later he was “perp walked” out of the school never to seen OR TALKED about again…all hush hush… But, because of TWW I tracked this teacher down, and found him on California’s Megan’s list, and he was a “guest” of the California State prisons… for, sexual abuse of minors..
in the middle of this search, I was in San Diego on business, and visited the County Courthouse, and got his conviction record… 3 boys were significantly molested, and there were probably more….
and I know after he was fired from my school he taught at a Christian School in the San Diego area… and worked with a number of Christian and “arts” groups that involved youth.. and stopped looking after getting the Court records…
As far as I know, none of the “Christian leaders” that were “supervising” him ever were “disciplined”… it was all just sweep under the rug.. in fact, after I posted about “him” on my fundamentalist high school alumni facebook page some of my fellow classmates had stories, including how it was all “hush hush”…
So, as far as I am concerned, the “pious Christian leaders” from my schools are partially to blame for the at least 3 boys that were disgustingly abused (I read the police reports).
So, my story has allot of similarities to Dee’s experience, and “Christian Leaders” that cover this stuff up are almost as bad as the perps… Kids are not stupid… they see this stuff, and while not completely understanding it all, covering it up, and in some cases squashing victims is only magnifying the evil..
I am so thankful the perp never touched me, but it got close, and to this day there are some of my fellow students that I wonder about, several of which “went off the deep end”, and I just wonder..
Jeffrey J Chalmers,
Thanks for telling me your story, Jeffrey. Well done you for digging into the abuser’s court record, and for writing publicly about your experience. Your writing about it would have most likely validated and encouraged other survivors of that perpetrator.
I totally agree with you that “the ‘pious Christian leaders’ from my schools are partially to blame for the at least 3 boys that were disgustingly abused.”
Covering up or turning a blind eye to abuse does magnify the evil. The Bible tells us that “evildoers will get worse and worse”. Therefore, anyone who covers up or turns a blind eye to evildoing (including evidence that hints that evildoing is taking place) is helping the evil to increase.
That was the way.
Thank you for telling your story here.
I can tell by your arm-chair quarter-back play calling that you don’t have half the courage that Dee Parsons has.
Jeffrey J Chalmers,
What polite society does, in general. Sweep things under the rug. Lots of filthy rugs in Christian institutions, guessing. The polite ones in particular.
Esau Mccaulley writes about this in “Reading While Black”.
This is a really interesting line of thought (no pun intended).
I was reading a local church’s statement of beliefs on their website. Right under “Jesus was fully God and fully man and without sin” was “all men* are born in sin.”
Seeing them so blatantly juxtaposed like that makes me wonder how the two ideas are reconciled, at least when it comes to emotions and feelings.
*and women, I’m assuming, though they didn’t specifically spell that out, so who knows
Barbara Roberts,
Well said Barbara!
Dee,
I’ve thought in more detail.
i – the lawyer – seek facts (in slow time) as advised or remain agnostic.
ii – you list a number of investigators you like. It may be they are unhappy that you weren’t approached in writing
iv – the bosses – it WAS unprofessional of them not to approach you in writing. Some firms lapse occasionally. Does it mean something or not?
Dee – It was never clear to me that Samantha was on the payroll of the church. If it was true, I was never told so.
Wild Honey,
“I was reading a local church’s statement of beliefs on their website. Right under “Jesus was fully God and fully man and without sin” was “all men* are born in sin.””
+++++++++++++++++++++++
well, i think the concept of ‘sin’ has metamorphosed into some huge and ever-growing mass…
angles and bulges popping out every day, junk flying into it being sucked to its surface with a crash through the sheer gravity its massive size has developed.
a mass of stuff that isn’t sin at all. but willed into being by human religious paranoia and quest for power over others.
so, they say jesus was fully God and fully human, just without sin. and all humans are born into sin. seems like a contradiction.
i think this is all misunderstood somehow.
for starters, i think the sin list is short.
sort of like the original bread recipe was extremely short. and other original food ingredients lists.
(until the mass food production factory people took all the raw food out and substituted it with all kinds of artificial and man-made food derivatives)
…and i don’t know where i’m going with this. except to say i can fathom jesus swearing up in a storm in his mind (justifiably so), maybe a muttered word slipping out now & then.
i can fathom jesus having every kind of thought any of us have.
let me just say, I sure hope he did.
the human being jesus means everything.
There’s a lot of sins in the Bible that are completely ignored or excused in the church because they are common among those in power. Particularly pride and greed.
I think the desire to be in charge is usually fueled by sin, and one of the main reasons I can’t support a complementarian perspective. There may be a few who don’t enjoy it but think it’s the right thing, but I think a lot of people are driven by the idea that they have to always get their own way and shouldn’t have to compromise. I’ve never seen it make a relationship better, to be honest if they actually hold to it. I don’t think humans become better people by always getting their own way.
And that plays out in churches on a large scale. There’s always someone who thinks they have to be in charge and everyone has to do what they want. And it never creates good situations. It never leads to examples that non-Christians can admire. It leads to a lot of unnecessary conflict, unhappiness, and the inability to see there might be better ways to do things.
Muff Potter,
Interesting you said this Muff…. I once read the first of a series of books written by Henry Kissinger on his time working for Nixon. One of his points was given the way “the presidency” in the US operates, we in the US end up with leaders that are willing to go through “the process” to get to the presidency, and we should not be surprised..
My point is NOT to compare Dee to Nixon!, but to say that it takes not just courage, but allot of emotional “energy” , and moral outrage, to fight the fight Dee does… a majority of people do not have these three, and probably more attributes to “challenge” “the system”…. and as my story told above shows, this “cover up” system is well entrenched and been around in the church since before the reformation, at least..
So, is “turning over the rocks”, or “ ripping off the bandage” also going to be done perfectly?? Of course not!!! Does it need to be done? Well, I bet the three boys in the police report I speak of, and probably the boy in my school sure wish that my “perp” teacher had been “exposed” and prevented from his depraved actions!!! Who is worse off, the people in this current “dust up”, or the four, and probably many more molested by depraved, perp teacher, and all of his enablers!!! Oh, I might add, this perp teacher taught me hard core young earth, and published a paper on dinosaurs in a young earth “journal”, while was IN PRISON!!
ishy,
Yup…
Barbara Roberts,
I am more than willing to provide details…. that is why I did took the time to get all the info… what I am reporting is first hand, and in the case of police records, official, public record.. The kids, now older adults, if still alive, desire this info to be made public… NO CHILD should be sexual abused by anyone, let alone someone functioning under a “Christian org” authority… AND the “Christian leaders” that “covered this up”, need to be exposed as well.. unfortunately, in my case, when I got all the info many of these leaders were probably dead…..
Tom Parker,
I’m not going to dignify your implied sexism. I’ve long been a huge supporter of Dee’s and TWW. She has been a huge inspiration in helping me leave my own abusive situation. Obviously, I’ve screwed up more times than I can count, but I don’t operate a prominent blog with such far-reaching influence. G.R.A.C.E. was instrumental in my journey, and her thoughtless words unnecessarily opened up old wounds.
Muff Potter,
Dee is incredibly brave, and I am not. You’re right. Except I have far less than half of her courage. I stayed in my abusive situation for so many years, knowing I was being abused, but too afraid to leave.
Tom Parker,
Do you know why it’s not good enough, brother? When the man who abused me from the time I was in elementary school through high school apologized, that wasn’t good enough. It didn’t undo everything he did to me. When GRACE helped my church do the right thing and helped put that monster in jail, I finally felt safe. I’ve always championed what Dee does here, and will continue to do so. But her post killed me all over again. Please, if you work with abuse victims–which, if you work with human beings, you almost certainly do, though you may not know it–don’t be so callous. The reason people are upset here is because we’ve been deeply hurt & (re)traumatized.
Stewart Sperwer,
Steve,
Thank you for your response. While I was not abused, I was “groomed”… and REALLY dogged a bullet, back in 1972-73… And the way my fundamentalist school “handled” it, I know I would NOT have gotten ANY support if he had (see my post above).
In fact, this current “dust-up” is a really “trigger” for me..
And, as I process it more I realize that I have a deep seated mistrust of leadership, especially “Christian leadership”, and it results from all the hypocrisy I was exposed to growing up..
For example, deep down I knew something was “off” about my teacher, and so did other of my classmates that have posted on our Facebook… instead of validating our child instincts, the Fundamentalist system squashed them….
See, the leaders got all emotional about “drinking, dancing, and smokin”, long hair, girls in pants/shorts, guys with long hair and evil rock music, and how depraved us kids were for listening to it, heck we even had a “rock record breaking/burning event”, yet when a “Christian, fundamentalist teacher” sexually penetrates little boys, it is all hush hush, etc, etc… some of the girl classmates called him “creepy”… gee, I wonder why..
So, while Dee’s original post upsets you, I am bothered any HINT of cover-up by ANY Christian group.. and, deep down, I do not trust “Christian leadership”…
I would add Gluttony to that list, too!
Stewart Sperwer,
I certainly understand you. But, since I am human, I will make errors from time to time, especially if I am tripggered by one of the most upsetting experiences in my life. I am so sorry but I am, as Luther said, simultaneously a saint and sinner and you got to see the sinner side of me.
Linn,
I havee as well. The church helps me see what I believe more clearly.
What I like about the liturgical process in my church. is this. After the time of confession which is rather short, the pastor lets us know that ALL of our sin are forgiven. It’s done. This has been a wonderful process for me since I tend to beat myself up a lot. I have to remind myself that ALL is forgiven. So it’s time to get going and stop beating yourself up.
Tom Parker,
I know why I apologized. It was totally me. I was not coerced. I was able to parse out my very upset and triggered feelings and see all of it clearly. In fact, It started in church on Saturday evening during the time of confession. Even God doesn’t bully us. He gently leads us during tough experiences. For this, I am grateful.
It’s possible that this will happen soon.
elastigirl,
I’ve thought these very same thoughts.
Thank you for your thoughtful comment. I am so grateful to my church which give us a time of confession which is followed by an assurance that ALL of our sins are forgiven. I have lived out my life on this blog. That means the bad with the good.
This year, I gave some wonderful girls tote bags with an ambigram on it. That is a word I didn’t know until I found these bags. Here is a link. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambigram
As you look at the bag when carried it says Saint. However, when looked at from upside down the word turns into Sinner.
Ruth Tucker,
You have been such a support!! Thank you.
OK, Jeff!! You must write your story of looking up your perp. If you give me the details I will write it up for you if you are too busy.
Goodness, this touched me today. I had tears in my eyes.
Michael in UK,
I did get a note to tell me that, in spite of my discussion that they initiated, Samantha was hired. I then wrote several emails expressing my concern but I knew at that time it was a done deal. All of my emails were responded to and an attempt was made to be kindly in the midst of this whole mess.
YES, YES, and triple yes, otherwise the stuff we hear from theologians and preachers about Jesus’ humanity is just more mechanical fluff.
dee,
“ALL of our sin are forgiven. It’s done. This has been a wonderful process for me since I tend to beat myself up a lot. I have to remind myself that ALL is forgiven. So it’s time to get going and stop beating yourself up.”
+++++++++++++++
yes, ALL. it is finished.
i believe ‘all’ is a relative handful.
in my prayer group (very loosely affiliated with a large organization by a piece of old thread) we sort of follow an established agenda (inspired by The Lord’s Prayer).
i don’t think jesus ever intended his words to be institutionalized like this, and it bugs me.
i’ve modified it a tad, but kept the ‘time of confession’ to honor the broad swath of christendom, representatives of which come to the prayer group.
however, the ‘time of confession’ also bugs me, because it cuts loose all of our personal sin sniffing dogs. we potentially sit there for a few silent minutes on a quest for as many sins we can find.
and, boy, do the phantom sins show up. who knew all the horrible things that were hiding under the bed —
horrible, terrible sins like,
“oh lord, forgive me! oh lord! forgive me for feeling pleased with how I organized my kitchen as i helped my sister organize her kitchen. forgive me if my motives were tinged with superiority.”
please. i finally said to myself, “get over yourself! you helped your sister, that was good. you organized your kitchen, that was good. end of story. there’s nothing else here.”
.
.
things we do that are less than perfect are not sins.
of course we can always do better — it’s just not a sin to be less than perfect. we end up groveling to God for just existing.
.
.
so, after the allotted ‘time of confession’, i always rescue us out of it by saying something like,
“it’s done. it is finished. we can stand tall and pick up where we left off, God by our side, our partner, our helper.”
dee,
OK…
I might add the perp got a 18 sentence and he was convicted of:
LEWD OR LASCIVIOUS ACTS WITH A CHILD UNDER 14 YEARS OF AGE
this is all public….
But remember, it has to be “hush hush” in Christian circles.. so it is fine for preacher boys to get all worked up at us kids about our “sins” but NEVER talk of this when one of “them” is convicted…. reading the police reports made me want to throw-up…
And think preacher boys want to make me “feel” bad for listening to rock music, and believing the science that the earth is old!!!
Just to be clear…Dee, are you saying you are now okay with GRACE hiring Samantha Kilpatrick?
Yes in particular to these points.
Speaking as a mostly-evangelical, I see a lot of parallels between the Pharisees of the four Gospels and the evangelical church.
– Matthew 23:15, traveling over land and sea to make a convert, then making the convert twice a child of Gehenna as themselves [burdening new converts by the weight of “sins”/legalism God never intended them to be burdened by]
– Mark 7:5-13, holding to the traditions of humankind over the commands of God [complementarianism, anyone? Granted, one has to be careful with this one, given that history shows us the Bible can be used to prooftext just about anything by anyone determined enough]
Just for example.
Thank God for Jesus.
Indeed!! A pharisaical spirit resides in much of the American church.
AMEN^2 (amen squared)
Is it any wonder that so many leave Christianity when they find out that under the existing system (ixtian perfectionism) they can never measure up?
a) I can never be ‘good enough’ for God.
b) Because I can’t achieve ‘perfection’, my every move and motive is suspect.
c) Only in a state of ‘grace’ (whatever that’s supposed to mean) can I ever hope
to keep my miserable carcass out of hell.
As a father and a grandfather I find it as ludicrous as it is monstrous.
The perfectionist hegemonic system conflates prior and subsequent sins (to its convenience) and disbelieves in the person of Holy Spirit irrevocably and faithfully announced at Ascension (again to its convenience).
What destiny such quenchers / grievers / blasphemers / snatchers of bread from our mouths / excisers from This Book are apparently in the process of wedding themselves to.
dee,
It may have been a conundrum to them. The main thing will be, the conduct of their future work, whatever its GIVEN parameters, with our prayers.
It is far better for the lawyer to have an overt framework rather than “be volunteered” (it was in the passive tense in your report). “We” are “asked” to stack / put out chairs, but I only do so for my own reasons, though others may jump to conclusions about my motives.
“Michael has deigned to join in the chair thing, that shows string pulling is right.” (I learned the hard way, to signal that I am not “material”.)
I have seen that church authorities love to have “likely looking persons” on hand to be seen to dump such tasks on, for which they will try to dangle brownie points. This I think is what you have seen on their part. In sleight the pastors were even appearing to dump THEIR motives on her (they dictate the value in the occurrence).
Stewart Sperwer,
Thank you Stewart we needed your voice.
Muff Potter,
A) That’s why you need the Saviour
B) Ditto
C) Ditto
And “the human being Jesus” doesn’t deliver you from any of that – that’s just wishful thinking, or a god of your own making.
I’m happy to hear that, Dee.
I saw the statement that GRACE released. I have challenged them to show me evidence that they are willing to learn from victims. My challenge is on Twitter — and you don’t need a twitter account to read someone else’s tweets.
https://twitter.com/notunderbondage/status/1410461802190704644?s=21
I’m happy to hear that, Dee.
I saw the statement that GRACE released. I have challenged them to show me evidence that they are willing to learn from victims. My challenge is on Twitter — and you don’t need a twitter account to read someone else’s tweets.
https://twitter.com/notunderbondage/status/1410461802190704644?s=21
I second Paul’s question.
Jeffrey J Chalmers,
So, to further underscore I am not “overreacting” by what I have posted, I just went back to my Fundamentalist school alumni Facebook page, and TWO classmates (actually they were one or two years younger than me) witnessed, first hand the police walking my perp teacher out of the school HANDCUFFED…. yet crickets out of my school…. this is the classic “perp walk” if there ever was one… remember, teacher of 7th grade kids at a K-12, Uber fundamentalist, pious, 2 order separation school! (I.e. they were to good to associate with Billy Graham because he, gasp, worked with all those evil catholics! )
So, I repeat….. many of us have well justified skepticism of any church “authority” conducting their own investigations…. the more a church or a “representative” of the church says they are investigating, and doing the “righteous, spiritual thing”, and the more serious the issue, the less I trust them… the number of examples of this, not just on TWW, but throughout the world, and throughout history, confirms what I just said…
I rhetorically ask, it can’t get much worse than a “Christian” teacher, or leader/mentor/advisor “penetrating” a under 14 year old and the system squelching (covering it up, etc) the act, and passing this filth on to repeat it again, and again..
Some of you might “blush” at my being so graphic, but maybe it is time for “Christians” to SEE to the brutal truth of reality…….there are plenty of kids that have!!
From what little I know… in family court, sometimes one party is required to pay for their own attorney and for the attorneys of other parties, such as a child and an indigent adult. The judge might appoint an attorney for the child. The indigent adult (say, a mother trying to regain custody of the child) might choose their own counsel. The party who is paying has no control over what the other lawyers do.
This model could work in church abuse cases. The congregation could be required to pay for its own lawyers, as well as lawyers would represent victims. Adult victims could choose their own lawyers. Parents of young victims could choose their children’s counsel, or judges could appoint counsel.
Attitudes in congregations would shift if power were distributed differently.
I don’t know if any of the RCC cases required Catholic dioceses to pay for a guardian ad litem, or to pay for appointed counsel for adult survivors.
Friend,
Interesting idea.. Given the grave seriousness of kid sex abuse, there needs to be competent lawyers that represent the interest of BOTH sides from the start.. I believe that churches deserve competent legal representation in these messes just as much as victims do…. just it needs to be out of the hands of “preachers/boards of elders”….
any time a “preacher” says we will “handle it”, run…
I also believe that any hint of “cover-up” should subject the “leaders” to criminal charges. Period..
We have for to long allowed preachers to preach their own, specific “moral purity” while allowing for “filth” to fester within their ranks…
Lowlandseer,
“And “the human being Jesus” doesn’t deliver you from any of that – that’s just wishful thinking, or a god of your own making.”
+++++++++++++++++
give us more credit than that.
seems to me ‘the human being Jesus’ is the other vital half of ‘God’s son Jesus’. i assure you there’s no lack of understanding on the deity of Jesus.
for me, & for others, the greatest significance is that the God of the universe wanted to know and experience his creation so much that he became one of them. so he could walk in our shoes.
out of love.
Really?
Well here’s my wishful thinking:
Jesus of Nazareth is alive and well, flesh and blood real, just not here in this world.
If I were to receive a literal blood transfusion from him, my whole genome would start to repair itself. No more garbled information along the double-helix, no more aging, and no more date with death.
How’s that for ‘power in the blood’?
Point is, we all have a god of our own making, even you Lowlandseer.
The only real difference in our thinking is that I’ve chosen to go beyond the traditional bounds of what is considered ‘proper’ thinking in the ‘Christian world-view’.
Paul K,
What does OK mean? I bet you can read between the lines and figure that out. I’m not discussing *Samantha.* My two posts speak for themselves.
elastigirl,
But not so that his fallen creatures can make up their own version to appease perhaps their grumbling conscience.
Muff Potter,
Wishful thinking. You should consult a good theologian to better inform your judgment.
Lowlandseer,
Now there is an interesting question… “good theologian”… ??
I am writing up a response to this news about Dee and will email it to her when I am done. This is just to let you know that it is coming.
Lowlandseer,
Thanx but no thanks, I’ll just keep clickin’ my ruby slippers together and hope for the best.
… There’s no place like home,
There’s no place like home…
Lowlandseer,
define good theologian.
elastigirl,
Exactly!
I’m not sure it’s possible to distinguish a “good” theologian from a “bad” one since all theologians consider themselves as specialists regarding the nature of God and religious belief and practice. Depending on their individual interpretation of Scripture, I would label a theologian as good if they agreed with me and bad if they didn’t 🙂 Thus, various expressions of church hang out with good guys or bad guys depending theological preference … which may or may not be Truth.
Max,
thanks, Max. an honest answer. the only possible honest answer — i can’t see otherwise.
elastigirl,
I’d say a good theologian is a fine scholar with a deep understanding of the whole history of Christianity and ancient Scriptural languages, and a command of philosophy and logic. They should also be intellectually curious and interested in hearing what lay folk have to say. They should communicate clearly… without breaking life down into oppressive, simplistic categories.
That’s a good start! Couple all of that with a fear of the Lord and you can turn that understanding into wisdom.
“The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom; all those who practice it have a good understanding. His praise endures forever!” (Psalm 111:10)
IMO, the institutional church in America has by and large lost its fear of the Lord. So we end up with a lot of intellect, knowledge and understanding being tossed around without much wisdom.
Max,
I concur that theologians ought to be people of faith. However, I could disagree with a theologian and therefore decide that he or she is not really a Christian. That’s too easy, so I don’t go there. 🙂
You (generic you) won’t find that in hard-core fundagelicalism.
In the great panoply of Christian theology, we have Catholic, Lutheran, Reformed; you name it.
The legitimate ones went through a poop-load of academic rigor to get their advanced degrees and I admire them for their tenacity of achievement.
Each one can be right in his or her own sphere of expertise and therefore a ‘good theologian’.
Friend,
all sounds good. i’d also add not dogmatic, ready to say ‘i might be wrong’, open to other perspectives,…
…and ever after all the investment in their studies and the declarative statements they’ve made and what they’ve published (on which their reputation and careers ride), their overriding priority is to value people over principle.
they are willing to give up the doctrinal principle for the sake of one person’s welfare. if it comes to that.
Max,
Not knowledge and not understanding, either.
elastigirl,
Good doctrine always was good dynamics, in the day of Jesus, the Apostles and Holy Spirit (anyone still remember Him?)
The trouble makers haven’t got any principle.
Questions are swirling – some of them (potentially) mutually incompatible – and I quake to enumerate them.
1. I am always uneasy when prominent people jump ship – of as diverse a calibre as Mark Galli (I know where he went) and P J Smyth (I know where he went as well).
2. Is a (not officially “official”) element in Samantha’s professional body exerting personal or indirect pressure?
3. Hearing what Stewart says are there indications G.R.A.C.E have, very recently indeed, only just begun to change their stances / policies? That would be delicate of course. Is it that G.R.A.C.E are going to be bad for Samantha, more than the other way round?
4. Nonetheless my statement, “It is far better for the lawyer to have an overt framework rather than “be volunteered”” always applies, whatever counter factors like these might co-exist. It would have been tactful of Samantha or indeed her prospective new employers to point this specific point out in public, instead of making informal “soundings” that caused distress and came over as ambiguous. Transparency and propriety are good bedfellows, they should be overtly mixed and matched more. Was their forgetting, a bad sign?
5. It’s commonplace for a person to be “manoeuvred” without their actual prior complicity, believe me.
6. Was Boz always not the boss? Obviously he was nice for front man. Now some people do demote themselves in management ranks for all sorts of reasons, and they stay on in a firm for all sorts of reasons.
7. Providence, a medium size outfit, pretend to have nothing to do with any other trends or institutions.
8. Whatever her stances to people or events then or since, it is true to say Samantha is a fellow traumatised witness and it delighted and still delights Providence to hurt her.
9. Bad organisations such as Providence love it when we “portmanteau” situations instead of pulling them apart.
These are questions we could have mulled over coolly for a few weeks or months at every juncture.
Since I became an e-mail subscriber, I can now read G.R.A.C.E communiques, but the rest of the questions have been good mulling for months especially nos. 2-5 and 7-10.
Agreed. A lot of good Christian folks preach and teach wrong theology all the time! I’ve seen references to 30,000 different Christian denominations in the world … I don’t doubt their Christianity, but which one has a corner on the Truth?
Each and every one will say “WE ALONE DO!”
The Ultimate Theoretical End State of Protestantism:
MILLIONS of One True Churches, each with only ONE member, each denouncing all the others as Heretics and Apostates.
Max,
“A lot of good Christian folks preach and teach wrong theology all the time!”
+++++++++++++++++
so now i’ll ask what’s wrong theology?
(like our recent conversation, the answer boils down to whatever goes against ‘my’ assumptions & presuppositions)
[there’s apparently a difference between these two words…]
this is why i’ve reduced my theology down to just a few things (such as treating people the way i want to be treated).
i can live life with God *and* maintain my personal integrity and boundaries that way.
Providence is a New Calvinist Southern Baptist church, also affiliated with The Gospel Coalition.
Aside from all the other issues, I have a big problem with how New Calvinist theology views women as derivative and created for the primary purpose of serving men and unable to make decisions for themselves. I question if someone who has attended a strongly New Cal church can view abused women with the dignity they deserve and able to separate their lives from abusive spouses. TGC regularly posts abhorrent stuff about women (and even used a child model for their recent modesty diatribe).
If Providence is hurting her, why hasn’t she left? It’s been almost 20 years since Brian was arrested and she’s still a member there.
ishy,
I’m having similar thoughts and questions.
Michael in UK,
Hi Michael in UK, I’m responding your first five numbered points.
“1. I am always uneasy when prominent people jump ship…”
In your opinion, who do you infer has jumped ship? Dee? Samantha? Someone else?=4545643
“2. Is a (not officially “official”) element in Samantha’s professional body exerting personal or indirect pressure?”
Please clarify: — By ‘professional body’ do you mean G.R.A.C.E.? Or do you mean some organisation that accredits lawyers and makes sure that accredited lawyers stick to the legal code of ethics in their state / nation?
I submit that it is possible that G.R.A.C.E. has exerted personal or indirect pressure on (a) Samantha, or (b) Dee.
“3. … Is it that G.R.A.C.E are going to be bad for Samantha, more than the other way round?”
Good question!
4. Nonetheless my statement, “It is far better for the lawyer to have an overt framework rather than “be volunteered”” always applies, whatever counter factors like these might co-exist. It would have been tactful of Samantha or indeed her prospective new employers to point this specific point out in public, instead of making informal “soundings” that caused distress and came over as ambiguous. Transparency and propriety are good bedfellows, they should be overtly mixed and matched more. Was their forgetting, a bad sign?”
Very good point!
“5. It’s commonplace for a person to be “manoeuvred” without their actual prior complicity.”
True. Hence me raising the possibility that Dee has been “manoeuvred” without her actual prior complicity. If another person or persons attempted to manoueuver Dee, they would have found it relatively easy to turn her mind because Dee (as she’s told us herself) was feeling somewhat guilty for what she wrote in her original post before she edited that post and called it Part 1.
Replying to Michael from UK’s numbered point 6.
Michael in UK
“6. Was Boz always not the boss? Obviously he was nice for front man. Now some people do demote themselves in management ranks for all sorts of reasons, and they stay on in a firm for all sorts of reasons.”
Good question Michael! And I agree that obviously Boz was nice for a front man. If Boz was simply a front man, who (singular or plural) was the boss? And who was/is Boz’s handler?
Related question: If Pete is now the front man, who is the real boss of G.R.A.C.E.? And who is Pete’s handler?
These are not foolish or snarky questions. I know that there are some or many victim-survivors of abuse who believe that G.R.A.C.E. is wonderful. I know that such folks are discomforted by the idea that G.R.A.C.E. might not be free of corruption. But despite such discomfort, I would encourage those folks to consider my questions.
No one of us can be sure we have all the information that we need to evaluate whether or not G.R.A.C.E. is free of corruption. Only God knows all that information. But some people (me included) are suspicious that G.R.A.C.E. is not free of corruption, and that G.R.A.C.E. is not standing up for truth and justice, and that G.R.A.C.E. is not whole-heartedly and transparently teaching or practising Biblical precepts. (IMO, it is often what they leave out – omit, fail to mention – that indicates they are falling short of Biblical precepts.)
I have heard privately from others who are suspicious that G.R.A.C.E. is not free of corruption. I have also heard privately from one or more individuals who witnessed with their own eyes corruption being carried out by G.R.A.C.E.
I’m replying to Michael from UK’s numbered points 8 and 9.
Michael in UK
“8. Whatever her stances to people or events then or since, it is true to say Samantha is a fellow traumatised witness and it delighted and still delights Providence to hurt her.”
Michael, why do you believe that Samantha is a fellow traumatised witness? What evidence leads you to that conclusion?
“9. Bad organisations such as Providence love it when we “portmanteau” situations instead of pulling them apart.”
I agree! Furthermore, I think that Dee has somewhat “portmanteaud” this situation herself. Dee was triggered when G.R.A.C.E. approached her privately. I get that. I don’t judge Dee or anyone for being triggered. But now that Dee is disavowing her earlier distrust of G.R.A.C.E. and is stating that she trusts G.R.A.C.E., I am concerned that Dee might be failing to pull the matter apart because she just wants to move on and stop feeling the complexity of cognitive dissonance.
I understand from much personal experience how discomforting it can be to be triggered… and to experience cognitive dissonance. It’s like being on shifting sand, with adrenaline rushing through your body and being unsure how to deal with it. But Dee, you publicly opened the topic of whether G.R.A.C.E. is trustworthy or not. Ought you not take responsibility for unpacking and pulling that topic apart more? For example, Don’t you owe it to your TWW readers to investigate Samantha’s conduct at Providence after you left Providence — and to tell your readers what you have found out? And don’t you owe it to Samanantha to publicly apologise, if you find out that you maligned her?
The situation (not just GRACE) is reaching the point of “If It’s CHRISTIAN(TM), it’s Corrupt.”
And like its mirror image in RIGHTeousness (Wokeness), “The more Pious they get, the more Corrupt they are.”
Barbara Roberts,
“But some people (me included) are suspicious that G.R.A.C.E. is not free of corruption, and that G.R.A.C.E. is not standing up for truth and justice, and that G.R.A.C.E. is not whole-heartedly and transparently teaching or practising Biblical precepts. (IMO, it is often what they leave out – omit, fail to mention – that indicates they are falling short of Biblical precepts.)
I have heard privately from others who are suspicious that G.R.A.C.E. is not free of corruption. I have also heard privately from one or more individuals who witnessed with their own eyes corruption being carried out by G.R.A.C.E.”
+++++++++++++++++
i’m curious to know what ‘corruption’ means.
Also, what ‘biblical’ and ‘biblical precepts’ mean.
sounds very ominous…. but extremely vague.
although i imagine you are using the words with sincerity, they are catch-all words that some use as weapons to cast suspicion on their opponents & harm their reputation (based on nothing actually being true)
I’ve wondered that too.
I know that words like “corruption / biblical / biblical precepts” can and have been used as weapons to unjustly cast aspersions. I deplore such usage. I am using those words in the way any good dictionary such as the Oxford English Dictionary would define them.
Rather than me giving you definitions here, I suggest that it would be better for you to assess my understanding by reading what I have written on my blog cryingoutforjustice.blog and in my book “Not Under Bondage: Biblical Divorce for Abuse, Adultery and Desertion”.
I am not using those words as weapons. If you have doubts about my character or my motivation, I suggest you study what I have written at my blog and in my book.
In support of the intuition I had which is the same as yours and for that matter Dee’s, here is something I since found on one of the https://www.acnatoo.org/ pages:
quote Are the responsibilities of complicit parties being addressed, or is everyone involved being treated as a victim (as everyone excluding the underage parties can be both)? unquote
When I say you and Samantha and Dee are witnesses I mean at various levels. An intentionally or by “force of circumstances” botched handling of a botched handling imposes more layers of cognitive dissonance just where we are used to trying to feel some sacred loyalty or something like that. We thought holy bosses would deal in facts and we struggle with whether this is not true after all.
In my biggest church row (with serious ingrained misconduct bases in fraud and sexual crime cover up in some locations, as well as untruthful spiritual authority), I felt no identification with any of the seven ( 7 ) vocal factions in my own neighbourhood alone. The ostensible authority acted rightly, but was undermined by the extensive and skilled trickery of fashionable and fluid interlopers and rather a lot of superiors.
Facts that emerged added to what I was present at in person. Other witness bearers are receiving death threats. I don’t know where the detailed guidance is, as to what detail I should mention (to not worsen the fate of those others) or in what quarter. Mischief making does get salami sliced under different auspices. Influential churches that abolish prayer and belief from their underlings’ lives save themselves from the effects of God’s help for underdogs.
Heartfelt thanks for your comments. I shall follow up on more of them later. God wishes Christians would develop X ray eyes. I was part of a pincer movement from the inside and it gave me a feeling of kudos.
Elastigirl,
– all language (on every subject) alludes, and when there are several intersecting allusions we may have meaning
– fundamentalists who have radically shaped us all (but had not yet influenced me in my youngest day) say that the word is the thing (they replace God with themselves
– God sometimes says what He is saying by not saying what he is not saying (Holy Scripture is about the size of a long novel). When Christians try this as a “trick” we have to do due diligence, as Barbara points out, to check what it does for the situation and whether they are “up to” something.
– God means us to apply brain work all the time, in hermeneutics (the more the better), semiotics (the meanings in everything), quasi-indexicality (mind reading, including His), logic (the big version), and honest commonsense things like that. Roland Barthes and C S Peirce are very good on semiotics. Try Barthes’ essay on the topical “Plastic”. Barthes also commented on the industrialised religion of Ignatius Loyola.
– If a Christian – in “authority” or not – helps a second one preserve the integrity of their individuality in this tough world, and the second one ultimately survives the better for it, that is the fruit of the spiritual works of the first one, the crown they will be imputed with. Those who weaponised us, who despised Holy Spirit in us, were jealous of us, their works are likewise going to be tested and rewarded accordingly. (That is the Kingdom economy in Prov 31: 10-21, the Talents, Is 55, 58, 61, James . . .)
– This is about our subsequent works. Holy Spirit indwelling and empowerment – imparted in stages from before Ascension to after Ascension when they abandoned jealousy – is like power steering. We steer our day to day relating and praying, God tops up the benefit.
– Machinators don’t give us belief in our ongoing Saviour. They may themselves have been mistrained from young to stop with our former works, though these are no longer the barrier to God.
– Hence misunderstandings of perseverance, which is God’s fresh gift daily through us to each other, whereas they think it is their superficially magic once-in-a-lifetime ticket, and we small people of course need to be continually browbeat, or outmanoeuvred. HTH.
This was an open hypothesis. Such a person not acting in the way the remit of that body officially warrants, knowing about her position, making indirect “suggestions”? Or within TGC or SBC? In many towns professional people have sworn intense oaths on entering or leaving college.
I had Samantha in mind here but it included me – though I was not very active in my “movement”. In my case the trouble started with the claimed authority of my church leaders’ superiors.
Why did I stay in what I stayed in for 28 years? Was it the oaths that got suddenly introduced? The following two times, i ) I left after I was told “the nasty people have left”, and ii ) I left six months before anyone “noticed” anything wrong despite my many detailed warnings. One does get quicker, I think. Is Samantha a “covenanted-contracted” member?
Ishy & Emily, the superapostle Carson’s pretence (having written “From triumphalism to maturity”) over TGC isn’t credible: incidentally designed to stop men and boys thinking also. Thus, it’s not unnatural that we might ask, could it be “agreed” someone with that background would “ostensibly” be a “catch”?
This doesn’t contradict what her acquaintances have stated in their comments about their relationship with her, these are simply factors one hasn’t yet excluded from the bigger picture. If she has got the skills, she still needs to exert independence of mind from churches. I mainly joined in because I was trying to help get the thread away from all-or-nothing thinking.
Barbara Roberts,
no doubts about your character at all. mostly, i’m curious what things GRACE may be doing that are unbiblical.
Biblical/unbiblical truly could mean a zillion different things, in a number of different contexts.
It’s not just theological, though. I’ve been to that church. I knew Brian Goodrich. I knew that situation and saw the rush to put the pastors in a good light. And I was seeing the same thing (mostly on Twitter, which bled through here) to do the same with GRACE and Ms. Kirkpatrick. And I didn’t see anybody else until Emily questioning her theological beliefs in light of that kind of work and the claims the GRACE has been making about supporting victims.
I feel like her beliefs are just as important as her credentials. She attends a church that tried to cover up a child molester. She attends a church that believes wives have no reason to leave their husbands, even if they are being abused. She attends a church that believes that members cannot leave if they are being spiritually abused, nor are they allowed to vote on leaders or church actions. She is a member of a church that believes if the elders at that church told her to do or not to do something, she’d be expected to do it without question or face church discipline. She’s attended that church for at least 17 years because that’s how long it’s been since Brian was arrested. I know that the church believes those things because I’ve been there personally. And I recently went and looked at their website and they still follow that ideology.
New Calvinism’s authoritarian ideology is spiritually abusive in its nature, but it tends to allow abuse particularly for women and children, who have no power in the structure of the church. There is no room in their theology for independent thinkers if you are not male and a pastor.
ishy,
Thank you for expressing this well and still with compassion.
I fear we may open the door to abuse in any institution (even one that in name says its against abuse) when we trust ” IT” bc of who works there and their reputation…instead of by what they DO… we can only know if an institution is truly safe by what ” IT DOES” not by what ” iT SAYS”. What GRACE seems to be doing in this hire feels unsafe to many. If that is incorrect i hope someone can explain why.