10,000 Galaxies captured by Hubble: Ultra Deep Field! NASA
“Apologize quickly when you wrong someone, because I’m sorry has no value in the grave.” – Lakesha Ruise
Late yesterday afternoon, I spilled about 2 ounces of Coke on my laptop. As hard as I tried. I could not get the keypad to work. Since the computer was 3 1/2 years old and out of warranty, GBTC suggested a new computer, and my husband and I agreed. I pick it up, along with GBTC, this evening at the store. In the meantime, GBTC connected my computer to my husband’s work computer and it sees all of my files! Who knew? The Coke spill kind of finishes up a miserable week. But I must say I’m excited about the new laptop.
In the meantime, today I was sent a link to this letter by a reader. I have been worried about what seemed to be a lack of action on the part of the Session for Abbot Memorial Presbyterian Church (AMPC.) I think they realized there was a problem given the attention paid to Lookout Mountain Presbyterian Church’s incredible response.
I wrote about it in two posts: Well Done, Lookout Mountain Presbyterian Church! Churches: This Is How to Handle Sex Abuse Allegations and Lookout Mountain Presbyterian Church and the G.R.A.C.E Investigation Which Discovered Multiple Sex Abuse Victims. What’s Going on With PCA Pastor and Alleged Abuser Paul Warren?
Just recently, I was contacted by a reporter who was looking into the response by Lookout Mountain. We talked about that and I said I was concerned about Paul Warren who was still serving as a PCA pastor in another area. Lookout Mountain had contacted the Session to report the concerns surrounding Warren’s history of molestations. The following letter from the Session is both an apology as well as news that Paul Warren has finally been fired as a pastor. So, I will give them kudos for finally responding correctly. I am grateful for this because I told the reporter I needed to follow up on my concerns. Thankfully, it wasn’t necessary. See what you think about the letter.
A Letter from the Session of AMPC link
As clerk of the Session for Abbott Memorial Presbyterian Church (AMPC), it is with deep sorrow that I write this letter to our congregation and Baltimore community, not only because of the actions that have come to light regarding Paul Warren, who was our pastor, but also how we, as the Session and as leaders in the church, addressed these actions.
AMPC has always sought to be a beacon of compassion, hope, and healing for members of the Baltimore community. I have seen AMPC through times of joy and celebration, along with times of unease and pain. In this particularly painful time, I pray that our communities may continue to celebrate the gospel of Jesus. It is with this hope that I reach out to you, members of our congregation and Baltimore community, today.
On May 6, 2020, AMPC learned of an investigation regarding sexual abuse allegations launched by Lookout Mountain Presbyterian Church (LMPC) with Godly Responses to Abuse in the Christian Environment (GRACE) into Paul Warren, a former youth intern at LMPC in the 1980’s and former pastor with AMPC from 1998 to January 2021.
The Session of AMPC took immediate action to release Paul Warren from active ministry in May 2020 and waited for the ruling of the Chesapeake Presbytery, Paul’s oversight association, which was conducting a separate investigation. On September 8, 2020 the Chesapeake Presbytery ruled that Paul Warren had confessed to and demonstrated repentance for his former transgressions over 35 years ago and confirmed him in his pastoral qualification.
Regrettably, based on this decision, AMPC allowed Paul to continue to serve as pastor until January 24, 2021, when he resigned after the release of the 18 month-long, 47-page G.R.A.C.E. Report investigation on January 8, 2021. On February 13, 2021, the Chesapeake Presbytery declared that it erred in its former recommendation on September 8, 2020, and reversed its ruling, thus finding Paul Warren guilty of flagitious sin and deposing him from his call as teaching elder.
AMPC is deeply sorry for our decision in allowing Paul to continue his employment with AMPC and recognizes the undue hurt we may have caused Paul’s victims. The Session and congregation of AMPC have been devastated and heartbroken to hear of these abuses, and we grieve with the survivors. To think we may have contributed to this pain weighs heavily on our hearts. In seeking to aid in the healing process for the survivors, and for any potential survivors of abuse, we are committed to transparency, urgency and compassion around this painful process. While we continue to learn and gain wisdom as we move through this process, we vow to do better.
While we currently have no knowledge that any staff members or church officers of AMPC are aware of any allegations made against Paul Warren during his time at AMPC, we hold space for any who might have been a victim but has not before felt safe to speak about it. We are committed to addressing these scenarios with the rigor they deserve. We urge any person who experienced anything inappropriate at the hand of Paul Warren or any other perpetrator to contact law enforcement with that information. We are cooperating openly with law enforcement should we receive allegations from any source. If any potential victims feel uncomfortable contacting law enforcement, please rest assured you have a safe space with AMPC, and we will support in the most delicate and effective way possible.
We are grateful for the work done by LMPC and GRACE to unequivocally stand behind sexual abuse survivors, do what is right for the survivors and their families and hold institutions like AMPC accountable for our responsibility in serving as that beacon of compassion and grace for our congregation and community.
In honor of this responsibility, I want to outline our commitment moving forward:
We will be thorough in our attempt to bring to light any sexual abuse by Paul Warren or anyone else that may have occurred during the period that he was at AMPC. If we find that incidents have occurred, it is our intent to report these incidents to the proper authorities. This includes a new investigation into any potential sexual abuse that may have taken place during Paul Warren’s time at AMPC, which efforts the Chesapeake Presbytery is supporting with its own leadership team. We will share updates around this investigation when we have them.
As part of our efforts to ensure justice and transparency, we urge any person who may have experienced anything inappropriate at the hand of Paul Warren or any other perpetrator to contact law enforcement. If you have questions, need help or have information to share that you feel doesn’t rise to the level of needing to be reported to law enforcement, but you think we need to know about it, we urge you to contact us. Please email us at AbbottInvestigation@gmail.com.
We have qualified counselors ready and available to provide pastoral counseling and any necessary support to any potential victims. We also support any potential victims in choosing to seek counsel of their choice.
We have alerted youth organizations where Paul also worked with the information we have received about this sexual abuse.
AMPC stands with the survivors and any potential survivors of this abuse. We grieve with you and vow to do all in our power to be a safe and joyous place for you to celebrate the grace and glory of Christ.
Prayerfully,
George Lenning
Clerk of the Session
Abbott Memorial Presbyterian Church
“Paul Warren had confessed to and demonstrated repentance for his former transgressions over 35 years ago and confirmed him in his pastoral qualification”
IMO, this should never happen. “Pastors” who confess to sexual abuse forfeit that sacred office permanently. There are no examples in the New Testament of church leaders who failed morally being restored to ministry … and we sure the heck don’t need to make room for them in the 21st century church.
It’s high time for a Nationwide Church Sex Offenders List. Add to the list any church leaders who covered and protected offenders by passing them along to other churches.
In my neck of the woods……..I wonder what was going on right under the sessions nose. I would LOVE to see what is in that report, even a redacted version.
Website shows the only current staff as someone who is a musician. Odd. Especially for a PCA church.
Well, I am glad I am in a church that never has people from outside the congregation work with the youth. I have seen youth intern/youth pastors be off the rails too many times. We also have no paid pastors, so no one in it for the money…..
When will they ever, EVER learn that this kind of thing is not “curable,” no matter how often the offender supposedly repents? Do they know nothing of recidivism rates? We Catholics learned this the hard way, but I guess the Calvies are too busy condemning and anathematizing us to bother learning anything from our experience.
Max,
Did the “demonstrated repentance” include compensation x 4 to victims (Zacchaeus, Matthew & Luke 3.8 fruit of repentance)? Evidence. Biblical.
If the $700/hr/hiree Guidepost Solutions fee are what churches are able to do for their image/PR, surely their predators can compensate ($$$) their victims, as Jesus & John have established for evidence of repentance. Talk is empty, meaningless w/o accompanying appropriate action.
“thus finding Paul Warren guilty of flagitious sin”
+++++++++++++++++++++
huh…. that’s a new one. i’m curious.
———-
“devastated and heartbroken
we grieve with the survivors
heavily on our hearts.
we are committed to transparency, urgency and compassion
While we continue to learn and gain wisdom
we vow to do better.
We are committed to addressing
with the rigor they deserve
a new investigation
We will share updates around this investigation when we have them.
We grieve with you
vow to do all in our power”
+++++++++++++++++++++++
bah….. i’ve heard it all before. grandiose language that didn’t amount to much.
heartbroken is a good word — it’s just not believable.
“We are grateful for the work done by LMPC and GRACE to unequivocally stand behind sexual abuse survivors, do what is right for the survivors and their families and hold institutions like AMPC accountable for our responsibility
++++++++++++++++
now this got my attention, in a good way.
because, like, are there any other instances out there of church A giving a damn about integrity enough to bring deserved accountability to church B?
And furthermore, of church B sincerely thanking them for it?
“We are cooperating openly with law enforcement should we receive allegations from any source.”
Has the Church already informed the authorities that they permitted a known sex offender to serve there?
“If any potential victims feel uncomfortable contacting law enforcement, please rest assured you have a safe space with AMPC, and we will support in the most delicate and effective way possible.”
why does this not sound reassuring????
how do others interpret this cryptic comment?
?
and counseling offered? by the Church that hired this guy?
PLEASE, this is not appropriate in my opinion, as there is too close an association between the possible site of contact with the perpetrator and any possible victims
On-site counseling is NOT a good idea, no way. It bespeaks too close to a self-serving activity. Some ‘distance’ would be better for all concerned.
IMO, if a sin has been against another person, the sinner should address that person, confess and make amendment of some sort … an appropriate action especially in the Body of Christ. It matters not if years have passed by when the sinner finally gets around to repenting. Did Mr. Warren do that? Were things made right with the victim(s) of his sin? Was an attempt at restitution made? What was the “fruit” of his repentance?
These things are starting to sound like a “how to” form letter circulated around the churches. And they always end with the unwritten “too little too late.”
These sad situations should never come up in the Body of Christ because churches should not restore “pastors” to ministry who committed gross sins as a trusted church leader … a sacred trust that was betrayed, a calling to ministry that was forfeited permanently, harm to victims that should be addressed.
We should not be calling actions by the Session of AMPC noble and admirable for doing the right thing … they took too long to do it. Now they have a whole church on their hands wondering if anything happened to any of them during Warren’s tenure. How could church members truly trust church leaders to do the right thing in the future since this was a whopper of a test case they failed?
elastigirl,
flagitious = criminal
Are LE and the DOJ involved? Will he be held accountable in a court of law? Serve time if found guilty?
Insouciance amid flagitious conduct is hardly condign.
No offence to anyone intended….(I cannot seem to get my words from my heart to my mind and out my fingertips…)
What makes me saddest is that genuine letters of apology (whether secular or non-secular) might be (or are getting) overlooked, doubted, or mocked.
A tangential example for explanation: After a death, people will often use the phrase “I’m so sorry for your loss.” Some people are sincere when they use the phrase, some people are at a loss for words and don’t know what else to say, and some people are mocking the other’s loss.
(Sometimes I wish life were simpler….)
When I last checked it during the ruckus at Lookout, it only had a secretary. Yhey atr moving up in the world.
Agreed. It’s becoming increasingly difficult to sort out the genuine from the counterfeit in church. TWW reports on failed ministers and ministries on a regular basis … is there really a devil behind ‘every’ bush? Upset about the whole mess, I suppose I have been a little too critical and judgmental when the genuine tries to raise its head in the counterfeit jungle. We desperately need a revival in the church and spiritual awakening in the nation to purge that which is contrary to God … but I don’t see much movement in that direction. Guess it’s time to pray more earnestly … it’s come to that.
It’s enough to make a preacher cuss.
Max,
“It’s becoming increasingly difficult to sort out the genuine from the counterfeit in church.”
++++++++++++++++
this is what happens when one’s conscience is silenced because of fear
(because of being told to be afraid of one’s conscience; or because of fear of loss of money and power)
the replacement of one’s conscience is the institution’s party line, & party doctrine.
in my last previous church (the best one of em all), the very fine people there employed the most amazingly manipulative tactics. they had no idea.
they genuinely believed they were biblical best practices (because that’s what the program says, it’s what they’ve been told, and what they see others doing).
the conscience they were born with was dulled & these otherwise intelligent people were not able to pick up on it.
i did. those outside of the church bubble sure do.
these deceptive, manipulative tactics in the establishment have become what it means to pastor. the genuine is the counterfeit.
Ava Aaronson,
“flagitious = criminal”
++++++++++++
blimey… how did i read great writers and miss this one.
i don’t think it’s going to make it to the bs bingo cards, christian edition.
researcher,
“What makes me saddest is that genuine letters of apology (whether secular or non-secular) might be (or are getting) overlooked, doubted, or mocked.”
++++++++++++++
i’m waiting…. waiting to hear something veneer-strippingly honest that costs, because it should.
.
.
“i was afraid of putting my career in jeopardy, and so i pretended that X was true when i knew it was not true.”
“i didn’t want to lose what made me look good, what made me comfortable, and met my needs, and so I lied about Y.”
“i knew these things were wrong, but i deliberately deceived many people by arguing that they were biblical. I used the bible for my own convenience, and i used the bible to harm another human being.”
“i knew these things would destroy other human beings, but i invoked Jesus’ name to keep the people compliant so they would keep tithing.”
“Protecting my paycheck and protecting my church from looking bad (because then i would look bad) was the most important thing to me. more important than doing right. more important than the people whose lives I harmed.”
“i hid behind Jesus as a human shield.”
Are you speaking in other tongues here?
B
dee,
I have seen some churches function more as arts venues than churches. It seems to be the primary methodology for keeping an essentially dead church in their building. Website shows lots of music activities, I wonder if that is the primary generator of revenue.
This was one of a number of PC-USA churches in our area that went PCA about three decades ago. It is very much out of the norm for these churches not to have “Bible Expositors” as pastors.
I don’t believe Warren is truly repentant. If he was, he would have stepped down a long time ago. And, I don’t buy the apology from AMPC. Don’t apologize unless you get caught?
Warren got away with his crimes/abhorrent deviant behavior for decades, while his victims have paid a heavy toll every day, and will for the rest of their lives.
Do Presbyterians only “whisper” about “sexual sin” too, like Baptist do?
If the secular world functioned with the same moral values as our churches, we certainly wouldn’t have any problems with prison overcrowding.
Do the musician and secretary have the same last name as the Lead Pastor?
“MERLIN AMBROSIUS! QUIT PRACTICING CASTING CURSE OF BABEL! YOU HAVE A DINNER APPOINTMENT AT N.I.C.E.!”
Humans are very capable of screwing things up on their own; no need for “The Debbil Made Me Do It!”
“You have a saying: ‘I have repented’.
We too have a saying: ‘PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS!'”
— Paraphrase of one of the best non-Lando lines from Babylon-5
Yep, Paul warns in Scripture that the church could fall under the sway of three forces: the world, the flesh, and the devil. We give the devil too much credit for what ails the church, when actually the world and the flesh are tripping most folks up.
I’m pondering that thought. Reminds me of the words of an old song (Living Life Upside Down):
“What if we’ve fallen to the bottom of a well
Thinking we’ve risen to the top of a mountain
What if we’re knocking at the gates of hell
Thinking that we’re heaven bound
And what if we spend our lives thinking of ourselves
When we should have been thinking of each other
What if we reach up and touch the ground
To find we’re living life, upside down”
So many cases of abuse, scandal, anti-other human beings…isn’t it (well past) time we ended the Christian experiment and tore the whole thing down? (Yes. Yes it is.)
Written by their attorneys (plural)?
Written by their attorneys (plural)?
Max,
I normally only go to a Supernatural/Paranormal explanation after the natural explanations are exhausted.
That said, I’ve had only two Supernatural/Paranormal experiences in my life and at least one other possible.
That over 65 years. (Which is why I am highly skeptical of those who claim a Supernatural/Paranormal experience every few days (if not every few minutes) – you know the type.)
Christian “experiment”, yes … but Christian “experience”, no.
… church providing a safe place of opportunity with a new public image of spiritual leadership, for a registered sex offender.
The American church simply can no longer afford to ignore this fact. Trusting souls by nature trust every soul that walks in the door. Unfortunately, evil goes to church too … it’s disturbing when that is manifested in the pulpit, often undetected for years. Pedophiles and adulterers know how to hide in these safe places of opportunity … heck they even know how to preach! We need more discerning diligence to protect the vulnerable, something that is not resident in the average church in America … so we wait for the next alarming story on TWW.
Establish a universal Communities of Faith database.
If the Houston Chronicle can database the SBC using public records for their readers, churches can do this for their participants.
Neighborhoods get to know who moves in. Church participants should know who is in pew & pulpit.
Note to self & family: never participant in anything church without a full disclosure database of pulpit & pew.
(Privacy issues? Hypocrisy! Churches already keep track of the pew for $$$ collections, they can do so regarding sex offenders for safety of all).
Ava Aaronson,
Good point, AVA
Double Amen!
What is the Christian experience? If we don’t go to church and God doesn’t speak to you, then there is no experience.
And which Christian experience? The transubstantiation of Roman Catholic experience? The ecstasy of glossolalia?
Maybe some Christians are chosen like the Calvinists say and maybe some of us are not.
In the absence of anything else, church can be integral to that experience and that appears to be failing.
If Christian experience just magically occurs then Indonesia would not be the largest Muslim nation.
Agreed! But you would have to depend on the pew to populate it. Church leaders don’t seem to be interested in publicizing dirty secrets about moral failures in their ranks … folks might not come to their churches!
A direct experience ‘of’ Grace, an encounter with the living Christ. The organized church, by and large, prefers to think of the essence of Christianity as a bunch of jot and tittle doctrines ‘about’ grace, rather than a personal relationship with Jesus.
It’s a choice one makes, not something magically conferred upon them … not a predestined fate before you were born, but a voluntary acceptance of the Gospel message and the Christ which it speaks of.
Living in a garage doesn’t make you a car. Not one of the disciples “experienced” Jesus in church. Paul encountered Him on the Damascus Road. Five thousand gathered around Him on a hillside. etc. etc.
The thing we call “church” is OK if it is proclaiming the Gospel (the real one), leading lost souls to Christ (whosoever will may come), equipping believers to do the work of the ministry (priesthood of the believer), and then engaging them to fulfill the Great Commission as they are knitted together with their uniqueness in Christ. Anything less than that is doing church without God. We have drifted far from these essentials in our attempts to do church in America.
Jesus did go to church to do a little house cleaning a couple of times: He swept out some dirt …… John 2
and Matt.21.
“A mouse in the cookie jar is not a cookie,” said Casper ten Boom to daughters Corrie ten Boom & Betsie ten Boom, in “The Hiding Place” film, regarding his pastor who would not take a Jewish baby into his parsonage home to protect the baby from the Nazis.
Beware of landing a mouse when seeking a cookie. In Casper ten Boom’s experience, especially when dealing with a pastor: disguised, a poser, posturing.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
An excellent experience in the house of worship. For all. Thank you, JC. Ever grateful.
Lord, do it again!!
“For it is the time for judgment to begin with the household of God …” (1 Peter 4:17)
Praying with you, Max. When 2 or more are gathered in His name, He is among us in prayer. Thanking JC. Ever grateful to our wonderful Lord.
Ava Aaronson,
Without a divine intervention (of the judgment-sort), the church will never get back on track. Without a shaking from God, this madness will never end … we just continue to move from darkness to gross darkness in the church.
Max,
Ava Aaronson,
Amen^10?
And I think we have more than 2, right here!
Ava Aaronson,
A slightly naive moderately senior cleric was publicly approached by three under 21s about some money (not a terribly large amount, but some public contributed) and for a short while agreed, when the connotations were designed to recoil on him to the knowledge of junior colleagues – the scheme was widely thought to be known to not be authorised (and indeed wasn’t) (even though it might ostensibly have been elsewhere in very different circumstances).
Also a senior prelate publicly undermined my regional pastor in a serious matter at the behest of an “element”.
I’ve found out all sorts of things are done to trainee clergy by their “peers” by collusion with overseers.
Thus it’s not only children that are vulnerable, and not only people “known to the police” that are menacing us.
Thus, teach children to be more wary, if you are a rich husband teach yourself, and if you are clergy do far more research. (And a trainee, pack your bags and make lots and lots of noise.) And all our prayers for all.
Unfortunately thats not the reality for many people. For some of us, Jesus has declined the encounter.
I don’t doubt that your experience is real but the basics came rooted in a religion. The relationship came later.
No one is born Christian or any other faith for that matter. In my case, ok, I heard but the seed didn’t grow, which Jesus addressed in the gospel, that it won’t work for all.
But no one becomes a type of Christian without instruction of some sort. We learn from parents or missionaries, or someone.
There won’t be a spontaneous relationship
From the latest at Julie Roy’s:
“Dee Parsons, who has covered the saga at her blog, The Wartburg Watch, said the presbytery finally did the right thing. But she believes it finally did so because it could no longer avoid the public scrutiny brought by her blog and other news reports.
“I will give the PCA kudos for getting him out of there,” she said in a phone interview with The Roys Report. “But they should have been smarter to get him out of there sooner.”
Parsons says forgiveness is essential when pastors confess sin, but forgiveness should not be a pathway back to ministry for those who have abused young people.
“I don’t believe any man who has been working in a church and has been molesting kids should ever be allowed to be in a position of authority again,” she said.
Agreed.
“How can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?” (Romans 10:14)
Yes indeed. I will never discount the religion that led me to the relationship I have with Christ. In my case, it was through Southern Baptist preaching, teaching, and discipling … but those were different times and a different people in SBC ranks than we talk about now on TWW.
“AAAAA! THE COOKIES HAVE TEETH!”
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
So true!
Amen with ten as an exponent?
Now that’s one big Amen!
Headless Unicorn Guy,
LOL.
Yes, that is the problem.
Not good for reaching hands, nor for hungry cookie seekers.
Mouse in with the cookies.
Precisely.
I was just asked to be on a TV talk show an “expert” on church’s function in the community. I’m not going to do it because I’m a total dunce on video, but I’m wondering if I can recommend someone. It is fairly local to me, but it’s a big audience show.
I’m also wondering if they might do a video chat type interview and I can recommend one of the amazing people in this community who are much better at this kind of thing (and more qualified).
Max–off topic but let me invite you: our area has about 20% vaccinated, a 10 fold increase in cases in the last couple of weeks, and we have a pastor who is very anti mask anti any mitigation, so we have returned to worshipping at home. Let me invite you to join us by listening to the Cumberland Presbyterian Church in Dyersburg Tenn. at 10:15 central time. they are at cumberland.online.org. I think you will be refreshed by Pastor Cory’s preaching.
Wartburgers are experts on church dysfunction.
oops–make that cumberland.online.church
Sounds like he is also anti-pastoring as he ought. A shepherd’s responsibility to his flock is to lead, feed and protect. These are days for church leaders to screw their heads on straight and encourage vaccination against one of the mostly deadly plagues to ever hit the world. The new, highly contagious COVID-Delta variant is filling hospitals in my area with unvaccinated folks. Authorities are not trying to mingle into church affairs; they are trying to save lives.
(P.S., thanks for the invitation to tune into Pastor Cory … saw your note too late to do that on my end)
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Oooo, CSLewis reference!! Love it!
Agreed here. Any pastor telling his people to not take precautions is telling them to tempt fate. We already know how Jesus responded when Satan invited him to commit suicide and see if God would rescue Him. This pastor is stupid beyond stupid and not anyone I would suggest anyone to listen to. We are far too enamored with having our ears tickled and pay far too little attention to what they actually do. To me he is preaching for people to give God the middle finger and see if He has enough grace to rescue them from harm. This is no pastor, though there are many who tell people what they want to hear regardless of rather or not it is actually true!
linda,
I’m glad you have found a way to worship with a congregation.
So, this brings “refreshed … preaching”?
Friend–thank you. This is where we chose to worship online before rather than our home church. It started during audio problems our local church had. We had traveled in the past to Dyersburg, and have some relatives there. For those that wonder, Cumberland Presbyterians are reformed but not 5 pointers. They are whosoever will.
Max–maybe next week? I am curious what you would think. The how of church is very different from the SBC BUT they do good hymns and the preaching is pre 1979 SBC as far as I can tell.
We did speak to our pastor regarding our concerns with the mold, and with the rise in covid. It seemed to go well. Until it did not. I will not say more. Suffice it to say there has been public covert digs about people who do not trust God during the pandemic.
I have the opportunity to make a public plea for Christians to take the vax, mask as per the new WHO request due to delta, and distance. I am torn. I know if I do that it will likely end our time at our church since I cannot do it without my testimony of being born again, which is verboten in this church. And honestly I don’t think i will accomplish anything beyond painting a target on my back in the community.
Pray I make the right decision.
Amen^2 (amen squared)
How did vaccinations get so politicized, with right-wing pastors ranting and raving against them???
How in the hell did the public health fall prey to right-wing ideology?
It beggars the mind, it really does.
Ava Aaronson,
I believe she is talking about two different congregations: her home church, and a church she has found online.
Oh, well then, as Gilda Radner’s Emily Littela would say, “Never mind.”
https://youtu.be/fZLeaSWY37I
Excellent threads with links:
https://cryingoutforjustice.blog/2016/06/20/the-ceiling-came-down-so-its-time-to-inspect-the-whole-building-eras-part-2/
https://cryingoutforjustice.blog/2021/05/25/philippians-2-contradicts-the-idea-that-the-son-is-eternally-subordinate-to-the-father/
Muff–it is mind boggling to us also, but in a twisted way it makes some sense. These folks have been told all their lives that science is the enemy and you must choose either science or God. It is not true, but if you believe that lie then only a total idiot would choose science over God. Having decided science is evil, you won’t trust it in a pandemic. They credit science with making cars so complicated a man cannot maintain his own anymore, and that in the culture we are currently in makes him unmanned. They blame science for pointing out the dangers of near relatives mating, which makes many people feel science is saying they personally should not exist. And then as most of us can see, there is a strong racism thingy going on. If we mask up, or get the shot, or distance, or whatever in my particular neck of the woods then the lily white superiors will be seen as no better than “those people.” Those people might be darker, or live in a different country than us, or be seen as inferiors in some way. We are used to seeing them mask up and if we mask up we become somehow “like them.”
Our pastor seems focused on getting people not to live “in fear” since we should know if we die we go to heaven. By his logic that means we should “live fearfully” and just get on with life, going to church and concerts and plays etc. (Big deals in his family, all are involved in those heavily. Hard to do without an audience.) Local rightwingnut pastors all are pushing that mantra hard.
Funny thing is, we have probably lived the least fearfully of any family I know throughout this, despite front line medical workers, teachers, etc in the family. We don’t fear. We keep up with the science and do what it takes to protect ourselves. WHO is saying the vaccinated should go back to masks due to the breakthrough cases. Being older, with health issues, and living in a state with less than 2% of the nation’s population but nearly 8% of its new covid cases, and in a county that is one of our states worst for new cases/low vax numbers, we are going about our business but masked. Not fearfully, just doing what you do. When we lived in the northern plains we never went outside in winter without wearing our pack boots and down mittens. You don’t go out in a pandemic around unvaccinated people without your protection: vaccination, in high infection areas like us a mask, and keeping hands away from the face. In the plains we did not try to go boating on frozen lakes and now we don’t go to crowd scenes in a pandemic. No biggie.
At this point going to hold off on the public opportunity. Don’t want vandalism, etc, on the property. And figuring when we decide we can go back to church safely, we will find one not into fundamentalism. Easier to be the conservative in a pack of liberals than a moderate among fundies. One thing we have learned from our time in this current church: it doesn’t matter if you have all the rites and rituals down pat and perfect, if you treat others with disrespect or contempt.
Spell check keeps changing some wording. I meant that our pastor wants people to live fear less ly. Pardon the separations but it keeps spell check from changing it to fearfully over and over again, lol.
Sorry, I’m a little late to this story…but Does anyone know who the pastor was back then that Paul Warren first served under?
Thank you the different perspective on Matthew 4:5-7….most preaching (etc.) on Matthew 4:5-7 is focused on Satan tempting Jesus and the exact Scripture Jesus quoted back to Satan. I had never considered that this particular temptation could be thought of as an invitation for Jesus to commit suicide.
Typo….meant to write Thank you, Mr. Jesperson, for the different perspective
Listening to Leah Remini’s and Mike Rinder’s podcast today: Scientology: Fair Game. LRon Hubbard, the founder, used fear to drive his org: money, members, members w/money, etc. Join out of fear of the end of the world. Stay out of fear of Scientology coming after those who dare leave & break their signed “covenant”.
Never had any connection with Scientology but the mind games sound familiar when it comes to dealing with some churches & church leadership.
Mike Rinder is interesting, having been a top exec; Leah Remini is blatantly honest – breaks through any politesse about what goes on. Polite society can camouflage some fairly deadly stuff.
God help us all.
Our pastor did this, too. Then, in the very next breath, said “they’re out to get us.”
He missed the parable about the beam and the mote, I guess.
Wild Honey–lol YES! We get told we are being persecuted constantly. UM, NO. A bunch of upper middle class white folks active in the moving and shaking of the community are not victims of persecution if someone disagrees with them politically. The world did not end when President Biden was sworn in, nor would it had President Trump been reelected. Not praying in the public school is not persecution. (Real Baptist knew pre 1979 that was dangerous. Just who gets to decide which God and which prayers?) Asking us to limit church attendance was not persecution. Shoot, prepandemic we were not filling up half way anyway so what is the beef??
Knew there were problems there before the pandemic. After a year away, returning meant the frog in the pot of water effect was gone, and it has been eye opening to say the least. Loving people, autocratic pastor who is very bullying and people won’t even pray aloud in his presence, deferring to him to pray. Nope. Just nope. No one can express an opinion without being politely put down for it. Nope. Just nope.
Like Max, done. At least until delta burns through. Then likely either a bit more moderate or even mainline.
This is a problem with preaching becoming so ingrown that no one ever looks at the text directly. It is quite plain that Satan was inviting Jesus to tempt fate and do something that would be suicidal for anyone and then twist a scripture to suggest that it would be alright to do so. The same idea comes with those who handle poisonous snakes as a regular part of a service. Or in this case for some nut to tell his congregation that they should just ignore all precautions in a pandemic. They are daring their congregation to test God while doing that which is exceedingly stupid.
In light of the fact that God has plainly said that He is the source of pandemics and there is nothing in the scriptures to suggest the opposite ever happens, this is surely trying the Lord just as Jesus quoted back to Satan. A bunch of preachers are not only tempting God themselves but also putting pressure on others to follow their examples. How does that show the Fear of the Lord which is so essential?
Jr is backkkk…
https://julieroys.com/rc-sproul-jr-returns/
Looks like you are generalizing and literalizing. Scripture does give God credit for some plagues, and the Psalms are full of imagery about disaster. It does not follow that God has plainly claimed credit for all pandemics.
The problem of making this claim is the implied remedy. God sent a plague to change Pharaoh’s heart. We are told today that whole nations need to turn to our specific God to end or prevent various disasters, including the imaginary ones (“God will smite America!!!!!”). The prescribed remedies always involve hot-button social causes. Got a drought? Prevent the races from intermarrying, return prayer to public schools, and ban homosexuality.
To me this makes about as much sense as tossing a maiden into a volcano to prevent an eruption predicted by seismologists.
Pandemics happen for more than one reason. What did Christianized Europe do to deserve the Black Death? Assuming that God was sending a message to all those young Christian countries, how were they supposed to stop it?
I do agree that we should not tempt fate. Our fully vaccinated family is still wearing masks when we shop. We think God appreciates our efforts to prevent the delta variant from taking hold in our region.
Friend,
Well put Friend, and I concur!
I get tired of hearing God portrayed as a mean kid with an ant farm, a magnifying glass and sunlight.
Love your analogy. 🙂
(And knowing some of the cultic, etc., kinds of people and “churches”, I imagine they could take your analogy and do all sorts of funky things with it….sunlight vs. Son-light, magnifying glass and Pharisees or God’s judgment. etc….)
OT: (But I couldn’t resist the temptation….)
From the article: Sproul added on a 2019 podcast that he “didn’t know” whether he had a problem with alcohol, explaining he didn’t believe the category was biblical. But he acknowledged “I drank too much that night . . . I could’ve hurt or killed any number of people. That’s the scary thought.”
So….there are examples of people drinking in the Bible, and some of those people were examples of what happens as a consequence of drinking too much….
So, um, what Bible was Sproul (Junior) reading…. /sarc
Maybe the Calvies believe that all the abuse was pre-ordained by god (small ‘g’ intentional) before the foundation of the world so that he could bring glory to himself?
Remember:
Calvies are The Predestined Elect, GOD’s Special Pets since before the foundation of the world.
And with that airtight Get Out Of Hell Free Card signed by GOD Himself, They Can Do No Wrong. Like Caesar Caligula, “I Have the Absolute Right to do Anything to Anybody.” With the angle of “By Divine Right”.
I see Mr J is back to his old Private Revelation shtick of God creating COVID as a Heavenly Bioewapon to pour out upon all of use for our (unspecified) SINS SINS SINS.
I see Mr J is back to his old Private Revelation shtick of God creating COVID as a Heavenly Bioewapon to pour out upon all of use for our (unspecified) SINS SINS SINS.
During my time in-country (Late Cold War), the Divine method for God to Smite America was Inevitable Global Thermonuclear War.
“GOD’S PUNISHMENT FOR AMERICA’S SINS SITS READY AND WAITING IN THE NUCLEAR MISSILE SILOS OF THE SOVIET UNION!!!!!”
For “funky things” of elaborate Theological TRVTHs built on a foundation of minimal source material, it is really hard to top Late Medieval Angelology and Demonology.
Fear Manipulation and Guilt Manipulation.
There’s a reason one of my most common comments on some church shtick or attitude is “JUST LIKE SCIENTOLOGY!”
The only difference from the above is that with these churches, THEY don’t come after SPs (dissidents) and Those Who “Blow” (runaways); no, they send God and His Jespersonian Wrath as their “Blow Team”. Like Conjure Men sending their summoned-and-bound familiar spirits after their enemies real and imagined.
I grew up with a manipulating sociopath.
You know what was said about him?
“He’s so Polite!”
I still cannot say “please” or “thank you”. At all.
To me, now and forever, Politeness is the Mark of the Sociopath.
Though in retrospect it seems pretty obvious.
Claiming Divine Protection that isn’t there, analogous to the snake-handling preacher getting bit.
(But then, I didn’t Grow Up Born Again. I found that my earliest impressions of the Bible – BEFORE I had The Official “Plain Reading” forced on me – turned out to be more accurate interpretations than the Official One True Plain Readings.)
Serious question (asking for my own personal reasons, no offence or triggering intended): Does it negatively affect you if someone says please or thank you to you?