Explained at the end of the post*
“Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do you learn.” A fake quote by CS Lewis
I can’t believe that I am writing this post. For years, I have supported G.R.A.C.E. In the last month, I have had trouble sleeping. What happened in my former SBC church changed my life. Back then, @14 years ago, I knew nothing about independent or internal investigations. Unfortunately, I had to learn on the fly.
Before I begin, most of the players in the story are no longer at the church. The youth pastors are gone, the senior pastor is gone, the executive pastor is gone, and some other pastors are gone. They did not resign over this incident. There was other turmoil in the church. However, I have heard the lawyer, in this story, has been attending the church.
What happened at my church was covered by the Washington Post in The Crusading Bloggers Exposing Abuse in Protestant Churches. Please read the following if you don’t know the story. Also, understand that the following are just allegations. There is a lawyer involved in this story, then and now, if you get my drift.
In 2006, leaders at Parsons’s former church, Providence Baptist, called in Parsons and other parents for a meeting. A seminary student and church volunteer who led a youth Bible study, Brian “Doug” Goodrich, had been found with a child in a local park. That child, it seemed, was not the only suspected victim. “We’re so sorry there were some boys who were harmed,” Parsons says she recalls the church leaders saying; she also remembers them saying they hadn’t received any prior reports of wrongdoing and that, “if you have any information, let us know. The police are involved.” The church leaders asked the parents not to talk among themselves to figure out which boys had been victims, to protect their privacy. (Parsons’s son had soccer practice during Goodrich’s Bible study and wasn’t part of the core group of boys who regularly interacted with Goodrich.)
A few weeks later, a friend and fellow congregant, Janet Wilson, told Parsons her elder son was one of the boys involved. Parsons was afraid to talk about it, since the parents had been instructed not to; besides, she trusted the matter was being well handled by law enforcement and the church.
…In 2007, Goodrich was convicted on 10 charges of statutory sex offense, indecent liberties and first-degree sex exploitation, and sentenced to 13 years in prison. Wilson was understandably distressed during the investigation, and after the conviction she stopped by Parsons’s house, wracked with guilt. Wilson wished she’d done more, she told Parsons, because the church leaders had known about Goodrich before the 2006 incident. In 2005, Wilson says that she and her husband had described incidents with Goodrich to two youth pastors. Goodrich had exposed himself to a group of boys, including Wilson’s eldest son, at church camp, Wilson told Parsons, and encouraged them to reciprocate.
At the time, Wilson had been too embarrassed to tell anyone else about the flashing, or about the conversation with the youth pastors in which she and her husband reported Goodrich’s behavior. But Wilson knew her son was not the only boy hurt by Goodrich’s abuse. “My kids were okay,” she told Parsons that day, “but I feel terrible that these other boys have been harmed.” Wilson told me, “I felt guilty because the church knew about it. They didn’t feel guilty, but I did.”
…Parsons was appalled — and decided to do something about it. She, Wilson and a few church friends wrote a letter to the church elders reminding them of the earlier incident. She expected the pastors would say they’d made a horrible mistake. When they didn’t, and the church instead began an internal investigation, Parsons and her group wrote another letter to the entire congregation. Fed up, Parsons and her cardiologist husband, Bill, left Providence Baptist to join another church.
…Brian Frost, senior pastor at Providence Baptist, confirmed that the church’s internal investigation was motivated by Parsons’s group letter, and said church policies have since changed: Now, any report or allegation of abuse by an employee or volunteer triggers a leave of duty until an investigation is completed, and all allegations of abuse must be reported to police.
The internal investigation
The pastor(s) appointed a group to investigate the situation. There was one elder, one Dean at SEBTS who attended the church (what happened there is a story for another time), and a lawyer who attended the church. She was not presented as a lawyer but as some sort of child abuse advocate. Once I discovered she was a lawyer, I refused to speak with her. The Catholic Church is infamous for allegedly hiring lawyers to staff their hotline. She tried to get me to speak with her and even asked my husband to get me to speak with her. It was relentless. She called and sent written communications.
Those who were well-known and friendly with the pastors did the investigation. It was not a third-party investigation nor was it independent. You can guess the outcome.
Towards the end of the process, the senior pastor started flinging around legal terms such as “malice of forethought.” I didn’t know what to do so I contacted SNAP who put Jeff Anderson in touch with me. He offered to help. Once we gave his name to the church, they appeared to back off. To this day I keep his cell phone number with me. Then there was the infamous sermon in which the senior pastor invited people to publicly repent of their hate toward those who caused such pain to the church. They hated us? A church that claimed to follow a God of love?
I was so shocked at the way this happened, I started a blog. Over the years I put that part of my life away, claiming that God was leading me in a difficult matter for me to get what happens to many people who confront the church. That experience was tied up in a neat little bow and put in a back closet until a few weeks ago.
G.R.A.C.E. asked me a question.
A couple of leaders from G.R.A.C.E contacted me and told me they were about to hire the lawyer who was one of the 4 people involved in the internal investigation at my church. They wanted me to review what had happened. When they told me who they were about to hire, I became confused. At first, I thought they told me the name of another person I liked. They then repeated the name and it all came back. I couldn’t believe it. I told them what I believe happened. They said they would think about it.
As the pain returned, I had a hard time sleeping for a couple of weeks. However, I told myself that this person wouldn’t be hired since she obviously believes in internal investigations within a church. Isn’t G.R.A.C.E. opposed to those? Maybe she’s changed? If so, why hasn’t she apologized to those who were subjected to that process? Maybe G.R.A.C.E.and she assumes all is hunky-dory. It’s not; not by a long shot.
I had heard she had been trying to get a job as a judge in our area so I thought maybe that was the path she would take. I guess it didn’t work out so she went with G.R.A.C.E.
She got hired anyway.
Then, I got a note from Pete Singer, the Executive Director, saying they had spoken with her about my concerns and were satisfied with her answer. I don’t know what it was but maybe it will be in a prepared statement. I contacted Boz Tchividjian and he said that the final decision was made by Pete since he is now running the organization.
I am still in shock. The victim and his family’s clear testimony was obviously not valued. Isn’t that the way things usually go? I told Pete that I would not be able to continue to support G.R.A.C.E. at this point and he said he understood. He didn’t sound too concerned.
So here’s the bottom line. G.R.A.C.E. has hired a person who conducted an ugly, internal investigation in which everything worked out just fine for the pastors. Pastors who use this group in the future should be quite pleased. She did a really good job internally investigating the problem for the pastors.
Before I post her name let me add something here. According to the reports, certain pastors were to go to the Wilsons and apologize for the way they treated them. None of them did so. I asked Janet Wilson if she had heard from anyone, even recently, offering an apology of some sort. She hasn’t.
I do wonder if they will respond, They probably couldn’t care less. It doesn’t matter if and when something is said. I’m done. There is no excuse for this. I sure hope no further legal innuendoes will be thrown in my direction. I endured it before and I will endure it again. However, my heart is broken, once more.
*The picture at the top of the post
Aaron Wilson, the boy who was not believed, gave me the angel of courage seen above. That, along with the stone from Sedona engraved with the word, EMET, meaning truth, are always in sight of me when I write posts. I try hard to tell the truth as I know it. Each day I’m reminded of Aaron and his parents who I believe bravely told the truth. That it gives me the courage to go on.
1
Is there anyone out there who IS working for the best interests of the victims? Besides you, Julie Anne Smith, and others like you?
Another fact that Christian institutions may not be aware of is that G.R.A.C.E. investigations can take a year or more to complete. It can be a long and frustrating process when you have victims wanting justice and all sides wanting answers that the institution is paying big money to achieve.
This is truly heart-breaking.
So sorry to hear the new leadership of G. R. A. C. E. didn’t take your concerns seriously.
How very concerning that GRACE no longer seems trustworthy. I can see why you were so upset. I hope that Ms. Kirkpatrick learned from that experience that church elders and pastors are not to be trusted to do the right thing, because they often will protect themselves, the church institution, and even the predator over victims.
I am also sorry the Wilsons never even received the most basic pastoral concern over what happened. Brian Goodrich was a predator. I’m sorry to say he was only one of multiple predators at Southeastern at that time. And there was a complete lack of concern over it, even after Goodrich was arrested. Or when my friends reported a student stalking women on campus. And now I know about Megan Lively’s story, and that was completely kept quiet at the time by Patterson and friends (and there were not many women on campus).
I have now seen so many incidents of molestation, abuse, stalking, and sexual harassment going completely ignored in the church that I don’t feel safe in one anymore. If I had kids, I wouldn’t feel safe taking them to one, even if I thought they were in my sight most of the time.
Dear Friend (daughter of Stan),
I sense your weariness. I share it with you. Remember the gratitude and thanks of those downtrodden and abandoned, whom you serve. They love you! We love you! Remember Jesus’ words…“If the world hates you, remember that it hated me first.” Jesus was thrown out of the synagogue! Let’s stay there with Him!
Dear ‘daughter of Stan”
I’m so sorry your hurt has resurfaced. I hope you find comfort and wisdom.
You’ve had to make a personal painful decision about G.R.A.C.E., and I hope people understand and respect it.
The breakdown in communication every step of the way – from your former church, through a circle of parents, negligent pastors, through to G.R.A.C.E. is predictable and sad.
I get G.R.A.C.E. made their decision to hire this lawyer for their reasons. One can hope that she has changed since she did the internal church investigation.
While Pete recognizes you had to make a personal choice, it would be decent of this female lawyer and perhaps G.R.A.C.E. reach out to you with some facts and information about why things have happened the way they have.
You have been a strong advocate for G.R.A.C.E from back in the days when they had no reputation. How they’ve grown is in no small part to you and other advocates.
You know this as a former nurse – first responders need to look after themselves.
As someone who experienced a terribly botched church investigation through to supporting the few groups who do investigations well, you are a first responder and you’ve been crunched. Time for healing.
Whether anyone at G.R.A.C.E cares or understands is painful but moot.
Your priority right now is caring for you.
I hope G.R.A.C.E. hasn’t screwed up with this hire. I suspect your post will generate a lot of people reaching out to you, and hopefully solid and helpful information and insight will come your way.
Go under the mercy.
Ditto we no longer take kiddies to church with us, won’t take the teens unless they stay with us.
Major thread drift but I trust the collective advice here on TWW more than most places and have a conundrum to toss out.
We are finally back in church, although that may end this week as we are a low vax area experiencing the worst surge in the nation. BUT assuming we can be in church, here is the problem. I am very mold sensitive. It gives me asthma and leaves me gasping for air worse than being at high elevation in the Rockies. During our time of not attending, our church suffered some sort of physical oopsie. Communion is at the altar, and anywhere past about half way up the aisle the mold smell becomes overwhelming. The church is barely hanging on financially, and we are not wealthy enough to just offer to find and fix the problem. (I believe it was a bad AC that leaked water, but it could have been something else.) Last Sunday I was seriously struggling for air despite putting on an N95. (Both covid protection and mold I figured.) It wasn’t the mask that was the problem, I wear them regularly doing physical labor and have done so recently at altitude without shortness of breath. It is my trigger, mold. I doubt the church can afford to fix the problem right now also, and having been gone most of the year am loathe to “make trouble” by mentioning it. But how would you handle it? Just disappear lol? Go back to online with no prospect of returning to in person? Gently let the pastor know I am struggling while making no demands it be fixed? (I think he would be insulted if I do that.) What? No other church in this synod in the area so I cannot just switch. Conundrum, and I am sure you all will see this more clearly as my devotion to my church and friends is getting in the way of common sense I suspect.
OK, y’all, I know we Catholics are still a royal mess — although we’re definitely working on it — but *at least* the US bishops, clueless as most of them are, had the basic common sense to hire an independent *secular* organization (the John Jay Institute) to conduct two separate investigations of clergy sexual abuse covering a 40-year period.
Practically from the moment I moved down here to the Bible Belt, I picked up on a valuable lesson: If a merchant, business, contractor, vendor, or organization tells you they’re devoutly Christian, *watch your wallet.* And run screaming in the opposite direction.
It’s sad to think that secular “outside” organizations are more trustworthy than Christian ones, but that certainly does seem to be my experience.
There is a lot I could say, but I am not going to bother. Most only learn anything at all through the school of hard knocks. Hypocrisy comes easy and institutions all go bad over time. There is Jesus and Him alone which can be trusted on. The rest is just so much chaff…
What a blow! Dee, I’m so so sorry.
Is there no organization to be trusted to proceed with integrity?
I am very interested in how the lawyer responded to G.R.A.C.E. when asked about the prior “investigation.”
GRACE must be staffing up to handle all the SBC work. The new guys are going to investigate the old guys, but not much farther.
Thank you Dee for speaking openly and honestly. No one is above accountability. I hope Samantha gets back to you, the Wilsons, and everyone at Providence Baptist, about her misconduct to ask forgiveness. Not to clear her name out of expedience. But out of deep conviction of sin. “My heart is broken once more.” God’s grace to you!
I wont go into details b/c as an evangelical my soul was sucked out of me so it is what it is. But I don’t trust, not trust but verify I don’t trust when it comes to religious groups for the most part. In my personal experience they misrepresent, consistently about almost everything. Maybe not knowingly at times from the validity of the theory of evolution, age of the universe, even if we live on a globe instead of a pie plate. It was me calling Ken a globalist that got me booted from his twitter. But the denial of just basic reality and observable testable ideas ie what really works.
My experience is with fringe, yes I know flat earthers and yes they really believe it. But that “Pastors/church leaders are an expert about everything including handling abuse and not following best practices b/c its “worldly”. The goal should always be stopping/preventing the abuse, healing restoring the victims, preventing it from happening again ie reporting to authorities etc. I could go on.
I am so sorry Dee U really are doing the work of God.
“I contacted Boz Tchividjian and he said that the final decision was made by Pete since he is now running the organization.”
Boz is the Founder and on the Board of Directors. So is Diane Langberg, Justin Holcomb, et al. They could have stop the hire.
https://www.netgrace.org/board-members
Survivors Beware:
There are [some high profile ] law firms and lawyers who are currently contacting victims who may have had viable criminal or civil suits in the past, but solely because of statute of limitations restrictions were unable to bring their suits, who now have small “windows of opportunity” (in fifteen or more states) to file.
Laws are changing all the time and this could be a good thing for some survivors.
It most certainly will prove lucrative for law firms as these are being tried almost entirely as civil, not criminal cases, and there are so many that have recently been exposed in the media.
Keep in mind, civil suits are the way for many of these civil lawyers to make a living…potentially using your heartache, and traumatic experience to make themselves money…. lots of money. BE AWARE that your best interest may not always be leading the decisions they make… even when their representation offers are based 100% contingent on your winning a judgement and/or settlement.
It’s important for you as a survivor, if you are considering a suit, to find and use your voice and to ask questions of the lawyers who are seeking to represent you, and to fully understand what is involved in the process.
You may be asked to re-open deep wounds and discuss things that will likely be re-traumatizing without any guarantee of representation or consideration in, or how, your case is conducted.
Also know, if you do use your voice to question, you may be seen as an * untrusting* or *unworthy* client. Your ability to trust your counsel is important, but is also largely dependent on THEIR handling of the process. If your case won’t likely reap the big money civil judgement or settlement, or if dynamics of it might expose something inauspicious about a lawyer colleague or ministry friend ( and they are a tight-knit group), you may be blamed for said lack of trust, discounted and be silenced all over again. This is devastating beyond words when it happens.
Thx for this info.
It’s disconcerting. Wondered about this for a long time, like forever, once becoming aware of the CSA that occurs in the hunting grounds, commonly referred to as church. This is becoming common knowledge to “the rest of us”.
However, in the clergy & counseling offices, the stories of occurrences of CSA in churches, including with predatory clergy, has been known for a long time.
What have these “experts” who have heard these stories done about it? They have benefitted from a growth industry of counseling to “heal” the victims.
Balderdash.
How about reporting to LE and extricating the predators from church?
Oh, but that might cut into the counseling & empathy BUSINE$$. Anyone who benefits from advocating for victims is suspect. Beware, be aware. Advocacy should NOT be a growth industry. Sorry, to all the do-gooder empaths who make a fortune off of victims.
TWW does NOT collect $$$ for advocacy, as far as we know. TWW spends $$$ on attorneys & such to fight the good fight because, “Do the right thing”.
Do the right thing. It may not reap a fortune on this Earth. Eternal values, however, may prevail.
I received a question offline which I will answer here.
Why didn’t I want to talk to a lawyer in an internal investigation?
There were many boys molested, quite possibly 20+. Think about it. We believed that the church had been informed that they had a sexually deviant person working with youth one year prior to the arrest of the pervert-outside of the church.
I wanted to make sure these boys could have the possibility of suing the church for their possibly irresponsible actions. I sure as heck wasn’t going to tell a lawyer who appeared to be acting as their BFF.
I hope this anwers the question.
Ava Aaronson,
My husband is hoping I do collect $$$ for doing this blog. This ministry has been a net negative for the Parsons’ family savings. I take no money for anything, including when I recommend books on Amazon. No kickbacks, ever. I did allow one pastor to treat me to a fast food Greek lunch a couple of years ago.
By the way, I am concerned about the lawyer looking in on this conversation. I am trying to be extremely careful here.
Brent Detwiler,
I agree. So why didn’t they? Why the stupid question and answer phone call when the decision was obviously made?
A.Baptist,
There is possibly, might be, not saying there is, some connection to the leaders in the SBC in this situation…
Today, after I wrote this post, I fell asleep sitting up in my desk chair. I’ve been doing this since 2009 and sometimes I get so gosh darn tired of the nonsense.
A.Baptist,
🙂
This is shocking and very disheartening.
@Dee A church local to your area has just hired GRACE and survivors were hopeful that light would be brought and the truth would finally come out. I hope that GRACE at least has the wisdom not put this attorney on a case in your backyard since you are well known and trusted in the local survivors’ community and this would certainly become a trust issue. I would expect that survivors will clam up as soon a they find out and they surely will, probably sooner rather than later.
GRACE has had the trust of survivors and your recommendation has been responsible for that trust for many people. I can understand your personal hurt to have a person who was involved in the wounding of you and others and who has never acknowledged the pain caused to now be placed in a position where she could cause more pain to others. If she has learned since then and changed perspective, you would expect that she would have apologized to the people she previously harmed, even if she didn’t know then what she knows now. It is the lack of the apology that is so concerning.
And in your local region, where you are so well known and trusted, this seems like it would be even more unsettling for survivors.
It is hard enough for survivors to trust anyone after seeing the truth brushed aside repeatedly as the white wash goes on ever thicker. Most survivors learn not to trust and have been burned any time they did trust. Why should they trust someone who was known to have burned someone they DO trust?
It is so confusing as to why GRACE would do this and so very sad.
Concerned,
Let me reassure you. She will play along for now. If she ticks off people out of the gate she’ll find herself out of a job. If there is anything I can do to reassure you all, let me know.
dee,
Your husband has a good point. You are working. And, you are working to work yourself out of this job, not to keep the wounded in co-dependency. There’s a difference.
Back in the day, there were missionaries on the field with us who were evangelizing to plant churches and work themselves out of their job there, and move on. And they were supported or paid a decent livelihood by folks back home.
Then there were the missionaries who dug in their heels to be eternal church leaders in the areas where they were evangelizing, with no intention of leaving, ever. They fostered co-dependency, being the forever white saviors of the indigenous people. These missionaries were creating an offshore dynasty to be indefinitely supported by folks in their home country. Extremely unhealthy all the way around.
There’s a difference.
Galatians 6:9
Wow! I’m just flabergasted, sad, mad, and disturbed. Who will speak for the victims? It’s so disheartening to continually see churches’ lack of concern and repentance concerning abuse victims.
Shalom Dee. Laila tov (g’night). And keep standing for Emet. Our reward is not here. Blessings.
May I ask a dumb question?
I’m not fully up on the alphabet-acronym soup here at TWW.
What is G.R.A.C.E. ?
It’s under their name at the top.
https://www.netgrace.org/
Bridget,
Thanx Bridget.
There’s more acronyms nowadays than you (generic you) can shake a stick at.
HDM = holy devil mimickers
(high demand movements make great show that they are “low demand”)
DOR = designer outlet religion
We have passionately crafted and curated your ad hominised “experience” of having wool pulled over your eyes.
Father Fitzgerald stayed on when his Paracletes were diverted from purpose.
My founder stayed on when our movement got diverted from purpose (already before my time), thinking he should airbrush the jump in the tracks. One of his publications has lots of photographs from the first couple of years as if to signal that there were some people who saw what happened.
NOBODY knows what is the smoke, and what is the mirrors.
I’m sorry you are struggling with this.
The pastor should listen with concern and offer both an apology and thanks for informing him. He should make every effort to investigate the problem and have it repaired.
You describe this as a new problem. If it’s hard for you to breathe, it is also hard for others.
This is a hazard to some worshipers’ physical health.
It’s not a test of faith.
It is certainly not a test of your loyalty to the pastor or church.
If your church is offering online worship, that’s a good idea for now, both because of the mold/mildew in the building and also because of your local Covid surge.
For your emotional well-being, please give some thought to how you tell the pastor. He should not be insulted. Since you seem to feel vulnerable, you might either talk to the pastor in your husband’s presence, or send the pastor a carefully worded email.
Best wishes. Hope this helps.
Bingo! Exactly!
Boz, Diane Langberg and Justin Holcomb are three ‘victim-advocates’ I have not trusted for years. I have my reasons for not trusting them.
When I have publicly shared that I don’t trust Boz, or Diane, or Justin, I have been sneered at by victims and victim-advocates. I believe I have also been shunned by the vast majority of survivors and victim-advocates in the abuse web-o-sphere.
I wonder if a few people who have attacked and shunned me might now reconsider their view of me. I’m not holding my breath. Prejudices, once set, are hard to change.
Unfortunately, that CS Lewis “quote” is NOT an actual quote by Lewis!
Friend–thank you! We came to about the same conclusions last night, that if we need to absent ourselves we will explain our reasons just as medical facts. It will be up to our pastor to respond in a loving manner or not. That is not our responsibility. I can see long term, if the problem is too expensive to fix, we may after the current surge have to consider a long drive to church or switch synods, which we do not want to do. But it is what it is. There is another church in the area we visited when first moving here that we never revisited as they had a serious mold infestation. Church attendance should not be hazardous to your health, mental as Dee fights, or physical either lol.
Dee–draw on your time in the Four Corners. Remember how peaceful it can be to just get away out in the desert place. Weddings are tough, your battle is tough, and doing both at once is tough. You have some capable guest authors on here that do blogs for you at times. Maybe until after the wedding they can step up?
And you cannot fix any of this mess in the church. If you didn’t cause the mess (you did not) and cannot fix it (you cannot) all you can do is herald it. Shine the light, but others have to clean up after themselves so to speak. Hang in there!
The term ‘inside investigation’ reeks of secrecy. Without real light on the problem, those who ‘knew’ about the perpetrator and did nothing might find some temporary cover.
But in the light of the subsequent conviction of the molester, and the testimony of the lady who had told the Church leaders about the perpetrator prior to many of his attacks on children;
I’d say that ‘lawyer’ who was involved in that ‘inside investigation’ which ‘made the pastors happy’ might have some ‘splainin to do.
Hah! I don’t think that acronym really matters anymore. Maybe they should change the words to make them fit an acronym like MONEY, PROFIT, or something along those lines. I get a sneaking suspicion that G.R.A.C.E.’s next step will be to change their non-profit status.
Disappointed doesn’t even begin to describe how I feel about this “non-profit victims’ advocate” org.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
I suspect that smaller non-profits, or even unincorporated projects such as TWW, are less likely to diverge dramatically from their founders’ intent. Or maybe it’s just less consequential when they do.
My intuition is that something changes when an institution reaches a certain scale.
One can hope that GRACE will not deviate from its founder’s vision, but also that other organizations will emerge “from below” to pursue the same ideals if it does.
—
One is reminded of the Scripture that speaks of “not trusting in princes”, and the problem is not confined to rulers. People tend to disappoint if one observes them over a sufficiently long period of time. One longs for the comprehensive renewal of the creation.
From GRACE to every Pedo-Pastor/Apostle/Prophet/Touch Not Mine Anointed:
“OPEN SEASON! NO LIMIT!”
Between the Feds and Microsoft, they’ve exhausted every possible three-letter combination and are closing in on the last of the four-letter combos.
Several Wartburgers have been betrayed by church leaders. You’ve not been done until you’ve been done by a brother.
Maybe this is mentioned in an earlier comment (though I didn’t see it), but while much is being made of Boz’s continued affiliation with GRACE, it seems that the attorney in question has also worked alongside Rachael Denhollander and Diane Langberg on the “Caring Well” initiative. Have they made a comment?
Organizations seldom carry someone else’s vision forward. In most cases, they evolve into something else under new leadership. New leaders rarely merge into another’s vision … they want to chart their own course.
This situation may indicate it’s better for churches to have healthy governmental structures that can handle these situations themselves rather than relying on independent investigations. By “situations”, I don’t mean allegations of child abuse – those go to the police. I mean situations regarding “who-knew-what-when?” If Janet Wilson had proof she voiced concerns to pastors who then did nothing about Goodrich for a full year or more, I think the best case scenario is for church leaders to fire those pastors and inform the congregation what happened. A big question I didn’t think I saw answered is, “Was Frost informed about Goodrich in 2005?”
But perhaps this is just another case in which the senior pastor really doesn’t have any accountability.
What a mess. Church is weird. On one hand I’d like all churches to have processes of blind justice, and on the other hand most churches are just small, independent groups of acquaintances and friends who genuinely love each other but can have some strange ideas about loyalty, authority and those not-quite-on-the-same-level-as-God-but-definitely-above-normal-human-level people we call pastors.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/permpage-the-arc-association-of-related-churches-is-planting-churches-looking-for-flowers-and-scoping-out-demons/
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/04/24/peter-wagner-and-mt-everests-queen-of-heaven-towards-understanding-of-groups-like-the-arc/#comment-189141
These threads confirm what I witnessed in just about all the outfits mentioned – including some badge-engineered analogues – bearing in mind I used to two-time or three-time across my “portfolio”.
Because something is said to have gone out of fashion, as long as we package deal / bundle like they want us to, they can keep us on board their pincer movement.
P J Smyth for example took cover in a New Frontiers outfit.
And because the American church has become a weird mess in many places, child abuse cases should never be handled internally by church leaders. Child abuse is a crime. Never call Pastor; always call 911 … the proper authorities will conduct a truly independent investigation.
Max,
Just to be clear – I did say this in my comment. But the point can’t be made too many times!
Indeed! Shout it from the rooftops!
John Kirton II,
Well, I went to a page and linked to it. So it’s their fault. I don’t know every quote CS Lewis ever made and I always try to link so you know it’s not my fault.
It was still a good quote-whoever said it.
Brent Detwiler,
I would imagine they could but one of them told me that Pete had the final decision.
Indeed! If nobody is taking credit for it, you can quote me:
“Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do you learn.”
This was a helpful comment. Thank you. It seems like you have a lot of experience here.I hope you were not a victim.
Concerned,
I am so sorry that this has affected you. You have the right not to use her in this instance. I’m sure the rest of the folks are really good. I bet Samantha would be fine as well. I suspect they will be watching her closely.
Please feel free to contact me so I can reassure you.
Looks like the quote is a line from the script of Shadowlands, a film about C. S. Lewis. The misattribution is understandable. Of course, you have to believe MY source, which is “Top 10 Lines Falsely Attributed to C. S. Lewis” in Christianity Today. 😉
“Experience that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God, do you learn.”
Maybe you can close your eyes and picture Lewis saying these words. Unfortunately, it is not Lewis, but Anthony Hopkins, reading his line from the script of the 1993 movie Shadowlands. But even that is not quite right. The version usually found online (as given in this list) actually does not quote the movie correctly. The “real” fake quotation is “Experience is a brutal teacher. But you learn. My God, you learn.” The misquotations don’t end there. In early 2017 this line was misquoted yet again. The fictional character Mike Baxter (played by Tim Allen) in Last Man Standing says, “C. S. Lewis said, ‘Experience is a brutal teacher. But you’ll learn, by God, you’ll learn.’” Not Lewis and not even the right wording.
https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2017/november-web-only/top-10-misquoted-lines-from-cs-lewis.html
Max,
Spot on. “Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.”
Bridget,
me, too. If only she had apologized to the victim and his family, this would not have been an issue. But, as usual, the church is deads silent.
“Many of them (lawyers) should not be doing this,” the lawyer said. “They don’t understand victimization. They don’t understand the church … And they end up re-victimizing their own clients. I’ve encountered so many of these survivors who’ve been actually re-victimized by the very lawyers who are supposed to be advocating for them.”
(Boz to Julie Roys, Dec 2019)
dee,
I come from a long line of very stubborn people. It’s hard for me to give up on anything. Guess I passed that DNA to my daughter who says she only has Plan A for everything – she makes Plan A work. Unfortunately, she really needed a Plan B occasionally 🙂
Dee, You are such a lion for advocacy of victims. I know this one was tough. God bless!
Bingo.
This is giving me a headache. I can’t (but I CAN) believe it. It just seems to be the way of the world. And some people are just too brazen to be embarrassed by what they do.
I would note to everyone that if an attorney is this kind of aggressive, tell them if they don’t back off, you will report them to their bar association for harassment. Nothing may happen, but they have to spend precious time answering the complaint.
Last week week I watched the Founder’s post-Convention vid below. It helped me understand how the Convention unfolded and the logical direction for the immediate future.
Suppressing and intimidating sexual complaints would seem to be subordinate to racist and misogynistic concerns. But they are the golden three strands of a cord, not easily broken. Where these issues go one, we can safely project they go all.
Ascol and Longshore in the latter portion, discuss a good old fashion personal pastor to pastor interaction. The Gospel is at stake.
Based on their discussion, the way ahead is a subversive behind the scenes effort to turn pastors against perceived threats on a church by church basis. It seems yo be exactly what happened in Nashville. What was billed as Tge Thrilla in Manilla, turned out to be a strategic decision to choose private versus public opposition.
Specifically related to youth and women bringing allegations, private pressure has always been effective.
https://youtu.be/MssTb-otXkY
dee,
I’m not surprised you’re exhausted. Please take extra good care of yourself Dee.
Nathan Priddis,
@17:40 or so, the conversation has one final topic before signing off: Russel Moore’s email. The reaction to the email, is what we are going to see going forward.
A. Who leaked damaging information?
B. Are we going to respond in a biblical way?
This is NOT a call to expose underlying scandal. It IS a call to go after those in the roll of exposer.
I’m so disappointed. It starts with gyros but before you know it, pitas and chalupas soon follow.
What’s next? Vindaloo, quiche?
A scandal is brewing….
No doubt, Jack. Steeped tea as well.
Great insight again, Jack. Vindaloo is often a tool used by those who want to curry favor.
To Ascol and Longshore, Calvinism = Gospel. Thus, to the SBC Founders Ministries, Calvinism is at stake. They are not behaving any differently than usual with their “subversive behind the scenes effort.” In fact, the Founders have a book titled “A Quiet Revolution” to provide instruction on the “quiet” takeover of traditional non-Calvinist SBC churches. Stealth and deception have always been their modus operandi.
No, what’s next after Greek food is icons, prostrations, and an everlasting grudge about 1204.
Jack,
Thank you for making me laugh. I needed that.
BeakerN,
You are such a caring person. Thank you. This isn’t over yet. I’m expecting some sort of statement like I wrote about in the post.
dee,
Watch out for bad korma.
Except for chicken korma, which is always good with basmati rice.
🙂
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
I persistently refused to talk with her. I believe that was the correct posture for anyone involved in an internal investigation.
Ken A,
Thank you.
Max,
I have been seriously considering a Plan B.
Lowlandseer,
Ouch! Good one, BTW.
Thank you for catching me up on this.
dee,
Dee I know the struggle is impossible. MK Safety Net that is run by a volunteer board who make no money from the organization, most expenses are not even covered. There are times like this when I wonder why I even try to help, but then some survivor tells their story of how we helped them and I continue to fight as you do. Don’t give up. Thank you for this post.
Re-asking for emphasis. The attorney is name dropping Rachael Denhollander and Diane Langberg. Do they know this and do they know her previous “investigative activities” and outcome orientation?
All along the watchtower
Princes kept the view
While all the women came and went
Barefoot servants, too
Well, uh, outside in the cold distance
A wildcat did growl
Two riders were approaching
And the wind began to howl, hey
— Bob Dylan —
That “Caring Well” initiative was nothing more than a smokescreen. Apparently, that attorney didn’t care well enough to follow-up on the situation within the SBC. Either that, or she got the outcome (and/or the paycheck) she wanted, and never looked back.
That should have been another red flag for G.R.A.C.E.
I think this it is probably the point for them. Denhollander is pushing for GRACE to get a new SBC audit contract from the ERLC, expected to be $1 million over three years. They say they already have fundraising lined up.
So GRACE needs a full-time lawyer to run (and bill) the audit, and what better lawyer than the one that wrote Caring Well for the ERLC?
Someone once said “If the plan doesn’t work, change the plan, but never the goal.”
Unfortunately in some cases the abuse happened so long ago that it isn’t a crime the government can investigate. Or it is abuse that isn’t a crime in a particular state. For example a minister taking sexual or financial advantage of an adult person he/she is counseling. These might be a crime in some states but in others they are not.
In addition the organization might want to do its own investigation into whether its policies to prevent abuse need to be improved [or whether they were properly followed]. The organization may also have to deal with someone who is not convicted (e.g., not enough evidence for beyond reasonable doubt), but, for whom a preponderance of evidence supports guilt.
That.
(Including many of the churches that grow and become “(mega)churches”….)
And many of these were the people who swept things like sexual and spiritual abuse under the rug.
Spot on. Nothing good about what they were doing. Totally self-serving.
Using educated credentialed professionals for personal PR. What Epstein did: Harvard, etc.
From the OP: angel of courage seen above
I have a Willow Tree angel of courage like yours. 🙂 (I have a small collection of Willow Tree angels, as well as one larger angel….they are my “angel army”.)
May God send you real (human) angels to help you and comfort you.
dee,
I have done enough legal work, and been involved with “messy” situations to have learned that a lawyer is always working for someone… that is their job, and it is malpractice if they do not properly represent their client, period. If Dee suspected wrong doing on the part of the church leadership, and this lawyer represented the leaders, Dee was wise to keep mouth shut, unless she had a lawyer and she was deposed. Sexually assaulting children, and/or covering it up, is nothing to take lightly….
This is the “problem” when church leadership use lawyers…. Mixing “spiritual authority” with human legal system is ripe for a mess…. especially for pre peons that are not “street smart”
Jeffrey Chalmers,
Pew peons, not “pre peons”
There should never be a statute of limitations on child sex abuse! There won’t be on Judgment Day.
Who needs Christ when you have CALVIN?
CALVIN who alone has God All Figured Out.
Mission accomplished
Icons aren’t nearly as tasty, prostration usually happens after I eat too much spice, and I should really brush up on my history to say something witty about the great grudge of 1204. Probably had something to do with the true day of Easter, or someone not cleaning up after their dog.
This is disheartening.
The looting of Constantinople, the capital of the Byzantine Empire, by the cusaders of the 4th crusade, to pay for passage to Palestine on Venitian ships.
The Venitian duke Enrico Dandolo is said to have put them up to it.
Shary Hauber,
I just tried their donate button and the attached screen didn’t seem to work.
“couldn’t care less”
Unfortunately, like the pastor Amy Smith spoke with lately (@watchkeep), there’s not much care for children.
If church is normalizing adults with serious predatory and power issues, watch the Hebrews 11 faithful exit.
Jesus is the only ideal human; however sin leveling amongst the rest of us is neither biblical nor just nor legal.
Burwell Stark,
Rachel is not part of GRACE. Diane Langberg is aware and a statement will be forthcoming from GRACE. They should have known when I said I could no longer support GRACE that I would write something. I didn’t want to do that but I needed to explain why I have backed off my former support. I know that people would ask and I try to be transparent. Frankly, this whole thing was difficult with no easy answer. I stayed quiet after they spoke with me, hoping that things might change in any number of directions. No words, not even to the family which upsets me the most.
She could believe that she did the right thing. However, I am suspicious. Since I know she supported some pastors, has she ever defended child abuse suspects, other churches or parachurch organizations against an abuse victim?
I didn’t know this. It helps. I think she has some close ties to some SBC leaders but I could be wrong.
Max,
I will never stop caring about the abused. One thing Samantha did right is to get me involved in blogging.
Good comment, Jeff. It was so hard for me to keep my mouth shut. It naturally stays open. It was a terrible part of my life. I hate revisiting it. I love GRACE. I trusted them. I can’t do that now unless they respond in a way that helps me to see my way through this.
Max,
Some states do not.That is why LeeAnne Kay was able to get justice.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2019/10/18/45-years-later-leanne-kay-gets-mississippi-law-enforcement-to-arrest-uncle-raggy-a-methodist-minister-who-abused-her-when-she-was-10-years-old/
I spilled Coke on my laptop yesterday. It is unusable. I didn’t realize it was out of warranty so I spent last night speaking with GBTC and my husband. I purchased a new one and will pick it up today. I am using my husband’s work computer which is difficult for me I will try to post. If not today, there will be one tomorrow.
Thanks for letting us know this, Dee. Hoping the statement from GRACE addresses concerns you have raised — **to your satisfaction** — and isn’t just image management. Abuse survivors and advocates are watching. And, speaking only for myself, if it turns out I no longer have confidence in their priority on victims and their ability to conduct independent investigations, so be it. I’d stop recommending them. Loss of GRACE as an resource and investigative organization whose integrity we can count on would be a huge loss for survivor communities, and hopefully we don’t have to cross that bridge.
That is true to a point, except in this case the attorney in question is licensed while Denhollander is not. More of a ride-the-coattails, name-dropping scenario. And since I have a LONG affiliation with the church which is at the heart of this sage (though my family and I left prior to Dee’s family joining), I know that name-dropping, coattail riding, etc., is par for course.
Oh no! That’s nerve racking. Take care of yourself and your laptop. We’ll keep jabbering away if your post is delayed. 😉
*saga. Not sage
dee,
They may say or do something To help ” you” see through this terrible situation. I hope it is not simply because you have spoken out and have been a public supporter for many years. They would not want the masses to start questioning why.
But please, don’t forget there are others who are relieved that the ” perfect image” of GRACE has finally been challenged by someone who is respected enough in the advocacy world, such that we begin to process our own confusing experiences, we will no longer need to feel completely dismissed.
J.D. Greear says we are to “whisper” about sexual sin because the Bible “whispers” about it.
And where exactly does he see that in his bible??! Because I see something much different, especially from Jesus!
Can you get me a link? I didn’t know he said that and it might be interesting to discuss. Thank you.
dee,
Humm, there seems to plenty of “sexual sin” which is discussed quite openly in the Bible..
And, to me, sexual abuse of kids is more about the “abuse” than the sex… While I do not wish to downplay the depraved sexual “interaction” between an adult and a child, the abuse of ones authority, especially when it has a “spiritual nature” (which is by “definition” whenever a “leader” is a pervert) in such a manner, is one of the more depraved behaviors of humans, in my opinion…
Dee, this news upsets me, for you and for the rest of us. After all this time thinking G.R.A.C.E. was the one organization who truly understood the depths of sex abuse cover up to now realize even they will ignore wise counsel for their own apparent benefit. The battle feels lost at every turn. I’m more convinced than ever Jesus is our only true ally. Thank you for sharing this news, as difficult as it must be. I feel this betrayal with you. One question I have always had with G.R.A.C.E. was not understanding why church victims could not request G.R.A.C.E investigation involvement. Why could only the church retain assistance. Considering most churches are not the ones desiring transparency I have struggled with the lack of aide given to church victims by G.R.A.C.E. I assume legalities prevent this. But it is just another frustrating cost to paid by victims. Thank you for your continued work Dee. I have much respect for you.
Does the Bible Whisper About Sexual Sin? (J.D. Greear)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lrb3riruWc8
War is one of the most profitable ventures an investor can be into.
The Crusades made vast fortunes for the Venetian shipping magnates.
Oh, let J.D. Greear tell you all about it (previous SBC President and New Calvinist darling) … see link at 11:47 am
You and I know that, but J.D. Greear missed those verses somehow … see above link
Thank you for everything you are doing, Dee!
I should clarify my feeble attempt at humor by pointing out that I actually like icons and prostrations, and I’m definitely not trying to defend or condone 1204. 😀
Ahhhhh, “whisper” about sexual sin, but shout it from the rooftops if a woman dares to speak before a congregation.
“Whisper”, as in “Let’s keep that within our own little circle; nobody else needs to know.” ????
So standing against abusers is nowhere near the top of the priority list, unless it is a woman abusing people by stepping outside of her “God ordained” complementarian boundaries.
Why am I not surprised about the SBC’s priorities?
That “whisper” statement is also indicative of why “Caring Well” fell through the cracks.
Yep, Greear certainly wasn’t a champion of Caring Well. SBC seems to be all about sweeping under the rug and falling through the crack on that issue.
There has been some discussion on Twitter that this is a calculated move by GRACE to appeal to church leaderships, a la Ministry Safe. And for exactly the reason Ministry Safe operates – to make $$. If that is the case, GRACE is definitely no longer to be trusted.
I already harbored some disappointment about how Denhollendar has supported Caring Well, which was obviously a marketing and money making scheme, but I am frustrated that now I distrust Boz, too.
Yeah, like “internal” vs. “independent” investigations.
If you really care well for someone, marketing and money never come to mind.
Not much new in this thought, but it came to me in contemplation of analogous behavior in a individual I have known for a long time: “Never admit an error.”
An acknowledgment of and apology for a prior fault, while highly Christian and a possible evidence of that elusive but indispensable thing we call “repentence”, might be considered unwise from the corporate perspective of an institution embedded within a legal framework.
This is a disheartening thought, but it suggests the possibility that GRACE might be changing in ways that make it a bit like the entities it has in the past challenged.
There seems to be more “Break Her Down” Pattersons in SBC than I thought.
Repentance has migrated from “elusive” to the rare and endangered species list in much of the American church. We’ll never see God return to church until we return to Him.
And just what is ‘sexual sin’?
The term gets bandied about quite frequently in Christian culture.
Apart from laws (and rightly so) which protect children and those who cannot decide for themselves, just what is it?
dee,
What a gut punch. So disappointing.
Years ago there was lady that had an advocacy blog in a completely different arena. She ran into a gut punch type of issue that resulted in her stopping her blog. She stopped it for good reasons and there likely wasn’t a way to work around the issue and safely continue her work in confidence.
I hope you are able to find a way to continue your work in a manner that is effective and allows for your continued safety and peace.
dee,
dural ragsdale
+++++++++++++++++++++
anyone know when/if the trial happened and what was the result? i did a cursory search & couldn’t find anything.
It appears that GRACE may no longer be trustworthy.
The conundrum here is huge. What organization will pay to have a truly unbiased investigation? Especially when they already know there are issues?
Even if an investigation was victim safe and funded (therefore no cost to the organization), how many organizations are truly willing to allow an investigation by someone that is not already biased in their favor?
One would hope that a Christian organization would be open to a truly independent investigation. However, that hardly ever seems to be the case.
Tribalism seems to inevitably rise up and hinder the truth from coming out. And even if the truth does come out, how many victims see justice actually served?
Certainly not in this instance – which seems, unfortunately, to be the most prevalent outcome.
brad/futuristguy,
“Hoping the statement from GRACE addresses concerns you have raised — **to your satisfaction** — and isn’t just image management.”
+++++++++++++++
seems to me some action on their part (in addition to words) is required.
Muff Potter,
As I have lived a decent amount of time, and have observed fundamentalist, evangelicals, “ mainlines” , and “secular humanists organizations, I can honestly say that Fundamentalists, and to a less extent, Evangelicals, have a real “problem” with sex…. their are so many types of sins, but they sure love to focus on sex… it teally makes me wonder
It’s been my observation that preachers who passionately preach against a particular sin are living in that sin. Such ranting and raving are probably meant to distract the listener from focusing on them. If someone is so vehemently against something, they surely wouldn’t be in it themselves would they? Remember Ted Haggard?
QUIETRUNNER,
I only wish at times, that it doesn’t have to be me.
elastigirl,
I just got informatio on this. I’ll post it next week. It is proceeding and TWWs blog post is in the court documents! After I get thru with the wedding and travel, I intend to drive to WV to visit with her. I just sent her a copy of HIllbilly Elegy which I thought she might like.
Afterburne,
I’m not planning on going anywhere. Today it’s back to nomral.
I heard him speak about a year before he was exposed and had a strange feeling about him.
He also, like so many others, started a new church. I recall hearing from someone that visited his church once that he was truly humbled and repentant – for whatever that is worth.
That’s good, but IMO he disqualified himself from ministry.
I’ll be honest, I only believe pastors like that are truly repentant if they gave up being a pastor.
elastigirl,
Agreed.
I know most of y’all here are Protestant and don’t cotton to asking our older brothers and sisters in the Lord now departed for their prayers. However, perhaps keeping the story of Saint Thaney and her son Saint Kentigern (Mungo)in mind will help, at least in knowing that there have been survivors throughout history who have not let any poison take hold in them.
“St Thaney became pregnant after being raped when she was very much still a child. She was so innocent in her youth that her abuser was able to make her believe that he was in fact a woman and that his act of violence was normal behaviour among women. When the pregnancy became visible, her family rejected the young mother and threw her from a cliff to die. By God’s care, Thaney survived the fall and she sailed in a coracle across the Firth of Forth to St Serf’s community in Culross, where she gave birth to a little boy, the future St Mungo (Kentigern)…. Kentigern was raised by his single mother, under the guidance of St Serf who had offered them protection. St Kentigern’s gentleness and kindness made him so loved by everyone that to this day he is better known as St Mungo, which translates as ‘my dear one’.” (From the web site of Mull Monastery)
More here: https://icons.mullmonastery.com/st-kentigern-protector-of-the-bullied/
There can be comfort in knowing about these people. Here is another one, much more recent, Olga Michael of Alaska. Do please read. (She is expected to be named a saint in the Orthodox Church. Our process is different than the Catholic Church; there’s a small bit about that in the article.
https://www.orthodoxroad.com/blessed-olga-michael/
[A note: The Orthodox missionaries in Alaska did not treat the Alaska Natives like the American missionaries did. The Orthodox monks and priests stood up to the fur company for fair treatment and against exploitation of the Natives. They built schools for the children in the villages and did not ship them off to boarding schools. Instead of forbidding speaking the Native languages, the Orthodox translated all their services AND Scripture into the major Native languages, within about 50 years after having landed in Alaska. They learned about the Native culture; rather than forbidding the cultural practices, they found ways to incorporate most of the practices into the lived experience of Orthodoxy without compromising doctrine. The little fences and huts over the graves in the photographs in the article are an example of one of those cultural practices. Native men were supported in training to become priests, financially and otherwise; the goal was to raise up Native ministers, not hoard “power”. Orthodoxy is very much enculturated among many Alaska Natives, in a positive way. Some aspects of Orthodoxy are definitely a mess, but this thing we did right.]
Agreed. IMO, when a “pastor” lives in habitual sin, he forfeits that sacred office when he is exposed (he actually lost that position with God before exposure). Genuine repentance can restore him to the Body of Christ, but not to the pulpit. There are other ways to serve the Lord than from a stage. (and don’t drag the story of David into this … he was in the military not the ministry)
Yep
Not to be self-serving, but in my recent book, GOD IS LOSER FRIENDLY, I point out that the story of Judah’s sexual sin in Genesis 38 directly links Jesus with a tribe/family that had skeletons in its closet. So, no, Mr. Greear, once again – you are wrong: the Bible does NOT merely “whisper”about sexual sin – it BOLDLY links the Lord Jesus Christ himself with the muck of taking on human form and being the direct descendant of Judah, the sexual sinner.
Dee – I salute and applaud the forthright manner in which you’ve brought the G.R.A.C.E. matter to our attention.
Tim W Callaway,
Excellent point..
So long as violence and coercion are not involved and the parties are consenting adults, and the laws which protect children and animals are observed, why is it such a big deal to them?
It makes no sense.
Envy; jealousy??????
I’m being sarcastic, yet I’m not being sarcastic….. make sense?
I think there are two reasons why fundamentalists/evangelicals focus on sexual sin
1. Some are committing the sins they are railing against. Either they are preaching to themselves and/or trying hard to divert attention.
2. But I actually think the bigger reason is what JD Greear was saying in the “Whispering” clip. Focusing on “sexual sin” (and he was specifically referring to evangelicalism’s big culture war on same-sex marriage) allows both preacher and pew sitters to skip a focus on things like spiritual pride (which JD specifically mentions), materialism, and abuse of power. Jesus spoke repeatedly about the Pharisees’ abuse of power. Ezekiel speaks of God’s judgment on the shepherds of Israel for their abuse of power.
I haven’t followed Greear enough to articulate his posture (both word and deed) with regard to sexual abuse and other abuse survivors in the church, but I do agree with his point here that focusing on sexual sin lets many pew sitters go away congratulating themselves (well, I’m in a heterosexual marriage) rather than being wary of how easy it is to fall into spiritual pride, materialism, pursuit and abuse of power, etc.
I meant to include here that I believe that sexual abuse of children and youth and clergy abuse of adults are not primarily sexual sins, but sins involving abuse of power. In fact, treating them like sexual sins tends to put them in the same category as premarital sex, etc. Putting them in the “sexual sin” category makes them seem more “normal.” In fact, the gross abuse of power is the very reason those who commit those sins should never be restored to a position of power.
Yeah, pastors don’t need to whisper about any of that!
That^ is a very good question, Burwell Stark.
Dee said in her blog post: “I contacted Boz Tchividjian and he said that the final decision was made by Pete since he is now running the organization.”
That^ sounds to me like Boz could be passing the buck to avoid any mud sticking to him.
When a person knows that reports of abuse have been mishandled by those in authority, and that person does not say or do anything about it, that person is complicit. If that person has a position of authority and has been a public figure in advocating against abuse, that person bears profound guilt for being complicit.
God is no respecter of persons. And God will punish more severely leaders who have sinned and failed to repent, failed to seek forgiveness (horizontal as well as vertical), and failed to do what they can to make reparation to those they have injured.
If Diane Langberg, Jason Holcomb, Boz and other board members of GRACE remain silent about this, they will be complicit with Samantha Kilpatrick’s part in mishandling of the historic abuse case in Dee’s former church. They will be complicit by ‘letting it past’ — as if it is unimportant. In addition, they will bear guilt for their part in allowing and then remaining silent about GRACE appointing Samantha without her having publicly apologised and sought forgiveness for her past misconduct.
Excuses like “the final decision was made by Pete since he is now running the organization,” just don’t cut it with God.
The list of “Christian” organizations in America that don’t cut it with God is growing by leaps and bounds.
Thank you for the links, Dainca.
I liked the way this was worded: We – in our parts of the world, at least – no longer have to worry about being thrown from a cliff into a river. But one can be pushed down from emotional cliffs, and one can drown in many other ways than physically. Values do change, but evil does not disappear, it merely finds new forms to tear us away from Life.
Kind of a general comment, rather than copying parts of so many good comments….
One of the things that bothers me more and more with every new reading….the use of the phrase “moral failure” (especially when used by church elders, pastors, etc.). The phrase has become so commonly used, and is used to describe an ever-increasing array of sins, wrong-doing, etc..
Is it any wonder that people have started to develop a “ho-hum” attitude….
Thank you for saying this, QUIETRUNNER.
I have not personally suffered a bad experience at GRACE. But I have sensed for years that GRACE and its founder (Boz) and some of its board members are not as righteous and clean as they make themselves out to be. My sense is that they are playing both sides — they are not wholeheartedly and fearlessly advocating for and supporting genuine victim-survivors of abuse.
This is really devastating, Dee.
I am so sorry to hear this.
emily honey,
Thank you. I am hoping that this will be worked out.
Looks like another book I will need to read.
dee,
Muff Potter,
“their are so many types of sins, but they sure love to focus on sex… it really makes me wonder”
“So long as violence and coercion are not involved and the parties are consenting adults, and the laws which protect children and animals are observed, why is it such a big deal to them?
It makes no sense.”
++++++++++++++++++
i think they’re terrified of sexuality. (christianity and islam do this to people — it’s really unfortunate)
and so squeamish.
(kind of like kids thinking it’s gross to handle raw meat… they eventually grow out of it — when they become old enough to realize “i’m hungry” and mommy’s not there to cook for them, and they start solving that problem for themselves.)
although, the abrahamic religionists have arrested development in growing out of this squeamishness.
but terror is the main thing. it’s like this big frightening fire-breathing dragon.
the focus on it helps them feel in control of this frightening thing that’s bigger than they are.
focussing on *other* people’s sexuality is how they vicariously wrangle and attempt to slay the scary dragon of their own sexuality, and it gives them the opportunity to feel like a hero instead of feeling like its prey.
the opportunity to feel in control, instead of feeling frightened & out of control of this thing they’ve been taught to be afraid of.
It is a “designer outlet” must-have, planned by the people on the inside track, that the front-men should walk in it.
So here’s my question or rather questions!
First let me clarify This attorney misrepresented herself by representing herself a victim advocate not an attorney during an independent investigation which she was hired?
Since the church hired GRACE to do this independent investigation does Grace represent just the pastors or pastors and members since I’m assuming they signed church applications/contracts?
Either way if this is a misrepresentation/fraud she and grace actually has tainted any future lawsuits that not only hurt the victims but ultimately the pastors who hired them! It can come back around and bite either side or both in the rear!
I wonder what contract grace has the church sign and what is said in it because they may have show themselves in the foot.
If she truly misrepresented herself to the victims grace was paid to advocate for that’s a service at the very least victims can contact the state bar and file complaints against her which is what I would do! That alone may be actionable.
I would be pissed if they came into to our situation and she told me she was a victim advocate never stating she was an attorney conducting an independent investigation.
I don’t know this is just the questions I have!
An independent investigation PAID FOR BY THE ABUSERS!
My first question is “Did they catch him with a Live Boy or a Dead Woman?”
The boarding schools that are now archaeological digs for mass graves?
That would fit right in with “Women are for One Thing and One Thing Only”.
(nudge nudge wink wink know what I mean know what I mean)
dee,
Not that earth shattering. Tamara is mentioned in Christ’s genealogy in Matthew 1 ( as is Rahab). More surprising is that the “sex whisperer” didn’t seem to be aware of it.
Tamar *
dee,
She WILL do good work, but not because she’s playing along. That isn’t how she works. If you had met her in any other context, you would have been friends and you would respect her integrity.
Plenty of Providence folks were wrong and criminal and dishonest through it all in and after 2005 and 2006. Your error is being so biased by that reality that you have passed and are passing judgment against someone who is an ally for sexual assault survivors not an opponent of them or of your work.
She isn’t name dropping. She’s worked with them. That isn’t a disputed fact, and they worked with her after and knowing (from less biased accounts) what had played out at our old church.
(BTW, I have no idea what their responses are, nor do I know Samantha’s thoughts on anything in this post or comments. I’m just someone who went to the same church as Dee and Samantha, joining a year before this abuse became known.)
As an abuse survivor (though not at the church I attended with both Samantha and Dee) and an advocate, I’m encouraged by this hire. Dee and I have very different takes on Samantha’s role in all of what happened, and I agree with Dee on everything else but not Samantha’s involvement. Samantha was trying to help from the inside, and she was not complicit in the ways Dee suspects she was.
No, that’s not accurate, though it is Dee’s opinion.
The lawyer was also a member of the church (still is, I think; Dee and I left long ago), so it wasn’t independent. She never misrepresented herself, but the church leaders misrepresented all sorts of things and I have no doubts that they misrepresented everything to the families harmed by Goodrich AND the church, but facts don’t support that Samantha was a bad player in it.
The story above about St Kentigern is fiction. His mother did not suffer at the hands of anyone, nor was she a child. She had an affair with her married cousin and was sent away. She wasn’t thrown from a cliff or cast away in a small boat which miraculously drifted up river against the tide to Culross where Kentigern was supposedly born.
Kentigern, better known as Mungo, is the founder and patron saint of Glasgow and his four miracles are part of the city’s coat of arms.
Mull Monastery should know better but given that they’ve only been on the island of Mull for ten years and can be excused for their lack of knowledge. Kilninian Church has no known or established links with St Ninian (‘Kil’ means ‘saint’) and it is currently registered as a Romanian Orthodox Church. Mull Monastery is registered as a charity in Scotland, and – surprise, surprise – as a 501(c)(3) in Maryland, USA.
And there’s the ever present threat of hell, and they’ve got the verses to ‘prove it’.
But yeah, I think you’re right, they’re terrified of human sexuality. Maybe that’s why they have such a strictly defined avenue (marriage) for it, no exceptions*.
*I heard Greg Laurie preach on this subject awhile back and those were his very words:
“No exceptions!”
Muff Potter,
“I heard Greg Laurie preach on this subject awhile back and those were his very words:
“No exceptions!””
+++++++++++++++++++++++
it really makes me wonder, well, what is marriage? contingent on a ceremony where a man in a dark suit says some magic words?
anything before the magic words, anything without the magic words is something too terrible for words?
really?
it just sounds so dumb. but isn’t that how it is, in practice?
Shannon Hope Dingle,
Shannon
I’m sorry. I didn’t know that the church spoke to you and told you who Samanatha was before asking you to speak with her and to tell her what you knew about the victims of abuse and when meetings took place. There were a group of us who were involved. Perhaps you were in another group of people who we didn’t know about. That was such a confusing time, wasn’t it?
It was truly an insider’s internal investigation.
Did the internal investigation clear the pastors including the youth pastors to whom Wilson reported or not? Did it state that they did not know anything prior to the 2006 incident in the park? Exactly what did the internal investigation find? Did Samantha agree with it or not? If not, did she publicly protest it?
Each of us can have a different perspectives of the same situation. You say Dee is biased because of her specific experiences with the church. What is your basis for your judgment toward Dee and toward Samantha? How were you involved in the situation? Would your perspective be biased because you had a different perspective/experience than Dee and the Wilsons?
Concerned,
Well done! Even those who like to consider themselves insiders are missing the entire reason for this battle to have even taken place. The victims as usual are forgotten.
Dee,
And most of the insiders, weren’t.
Concerned,
The pastors did very well for themselves. The internal, friendly, decidedly not independent, internal investigation did well by them. And I got a nice little note to understand the glorious results *with my heart.*
I think it should be both.
The social contract aspect of it as you’ve mentioned, and two people who really do love each other.
What’s really salient in the so-called ‘Biblical’ record of marriage in those cultures, is that love had little if anything to do with it. It was primarily a means to cement tribal alliances, so that respective chieftains were not so eager to go a-slaughterin’. And of course property rights and inheritance had mucho sway in keeping the institution going, even if love was not the prime mover.
On the other extreme, if the elusive quantity we call love is the only basis for two people to set up shop, what becomes of that union’s children with regard to name, property, and family continuity?
OT: Sorry for the tangent, but I just had to write.
Located by ground-penetrating radar: 215 graves on the grounds of a former residential school in Kamloops, B.C. and 751 graves on the grounds of a former residential school in Saskatchewan. (And how many more are going to be found when they search the grounds of other residential schools…very big sigh.)
And a variation on something I wrote on the Former Lookout Mountain…. post: The genuine and heartfelt apologies in response to the discovery of these graves are being overshadowed by those people (and institutions) who are doing the usual scapegoating and spin-doctoring.
I’m ashamed to be Canadian….
Concerned,
Shannon was. not involved in the investigation in any fashion or the was she privy to matters surrounding our expressions of concern to the church.. She likes Samantha. That’s what matters to her. Done..
Shannon Hope Dingle,
I left these three comments up to show how people who were not involved can make judgements on what happened. Shannon is a strong woman and is a wonderful mother to her kids. I pray often for her. She has born severe trial and pain in her life.
Marriage doesn’t belong to religions, they are in some countries permitted officiants as a convenience. (At one time a vicar was the only person able to keep a register)
(Else, tribal bard or shaman officiates and remembers. Tribe talk constantly about who is married to who.)
It belongs to the couple (whatever your motive, purpose or ideology), has to be duly witnessed, and recognised by the registrar / similar authority.
If you get it blessed simultaneously or afterwards, whether by clergy or laity, they are your guest and not your boss in it.
That is God’s universal provision for all mankind, agnostics included, and always was. Simples innit!
dee,
When a self-imported church within a church “somehow” got me and others involved in it, and the surrounding grandfather and grandmother of all rows reached a pitch (and hasn’t gone away this quarter of a century since – it has only transmogrified), I counted seven ( 7 ) factions, none of which matched my viewpoint.
But I wasn’t asked for my insights, despite being an observant and might I say unbiased witness (I was critical from the inside). Obviously it was everybody else’s church as well, and I respected their viewpoint, as far as it went, but a simplistic scheme wouldn’t accept enough input of realities and they “glazed over” too soon. I could have strengthened the opponents’ case.
I feel for you. The treatment of children at those schools was horrific. The survivors’ communities deserve comfort, healing, and most of all justice. It’s hard to think of a country that does not have such a history… or present.
Kamloops, BC?
Funny thing is, I know of that place from a YouTube channel. Channel name is “Hammerson Peters”, and he does a LOT of Canadian lore (quite a bit of which centers on that part of BC – I think he might be local to that area). Has a couple books out like “Mysteries of Canada I & II”, “Legends of the Nahani Valley”, and a LOT of YouTube videos about Oak Island (on the other side of the continent).
Hi Shannon,
I gather from what you have said that Samantha (the lawyer) was a member of Providence Church at the time of Goodrich was abusing children and was exposed as abusing those children. I also gather that Providence Church did not engage G.R.A.C.E. to do the investigation, rather, Providence conducted its own internal investigation. Thank you for clarifying those two points.
You stated that Samantha is still a member of Providence Church. You also stated that “the church leaders misrepresented all sorts of things and I have no doubts that they misrepresented everything to the families harmed by Goodrich AND the church but facts don’t support that Samantha was a bad player in it.”
I see a contradiction in what you stated. If Providence Church misrepresented all sorts of things to the congregation, and if Providence Church misrepresented everything to the families harmed by Goodrich AND the church, and Samantha has remained a member of Providence Church since then, how can Samantha be a good player? If she were ‘a good player’, why is she still a member of that church which grossly mishandled a case of abuse in its midst?
Has Samantha ever privately or publicly denounced and rebuked the leaders of Providence Church for how badly they handled that case of abuse?
Has Samantha ever personally apologised and sought forgiveness from the families and victims who were injured by the way Providence mishandled the case?
Has Samantha ever publicly apologised to the church congregation (new and old, current and former) for her failure to expose and denounce the way Providence mishandled the case?
If Samantha has not done those things, I put to you that Samantha cannot be a ‘good player’.
Please think through the logical arguments I have presented to you, and please reconsider your view of Samantha.
A lot of us are, and many victims prefer to speak for themselves than reading spin, like several who have reached out to me with concerns about the accuracy of this post.
Barbara Roberts,
If Dee allowed all my comments here, you’d have more answers. That’s not happening, though, so I’m not writing out a long response just to have her decide not to publish it.
dee,
Untrue. I like truth. And I was privy to a lot more than you think.
Also, classic abusive reply about how you’re praying for me.
A.Baptist,
Looking more and more like business for Denhollander et al.
This comment from Dee makes no sense to me. Dee, would you kindly please clarify what you meant? Thanks!
Shannon Hope Dingle has responded to my questions — she did so at my blog.
According to Shannon, Dee would not publish Shannon’s response here, so Shannon commented at my site.
You can read Shannon’s comment if you go to cryingoutforjustice dot blog, and look at the most recent comments.
This sounds like the heart of the matter. I’ve been picking up ambiguity by a person with a professional occupation, as to in what capacity they were acting, and vague ad hominem epithets. Who likes who as a person is neither here nor there. To like what some of the outcomes look like, is fine as far as it goes.
G.R.A.C.E was surely OVERLY hyped – as opposed to commended – all along. They either found this not inconvenient to allow to happen somehow, or didn’t notice, or didn’t know how to counter it (I really have seen all of those, trust me, and most likely the third of those). I did notice some while back that they won’t answer if you mention you are not an officer of a corporate church. Who are their own “business modellers” and have they received “advice” to dumb down some ramifications that would improve on frankness? Obviously this world contains no end of wouldbe arm twisters that would cluster round such a body.
There is confusion everywhere as to collective – that means you and me and the children and their parents and actual members of the clergy as individual fellow believers forgetting the company image – which is where Scriptural teaching about Holy Spirit applies – and corporate. New Froniters for example, when you attend a prayer meeting, wants you to act as part of the corporation, not a free individual. What pastors have had training in becoming more individual?
My hunch is Samantha was tricked. Let me enumerate decent people on the right side, that got tricked, as between three cases I was in the epicentre of:
– a spokesman for a regional pastor who had decided rightly (the spokesman since stayed out of the country)
– the custodian of a location for those “surviving” to talk freely which initiative got sabotaged, not by him
– several regional pastors
– reputedly, a number of pastors abroad
– a state accredited “enquiry chairman”
– a representative of a believing women’s organisation
– a young clergyman being cultivated for promotion – as you might rightly do in some cases
– canon lawyers or equivalent
– numerous bunches of laity trained in amorphous ideas to not see anybody’s viewpoints – even their own supposed one
– an authority always acting rightly and promptly in disciplinary cases who found himself “having to acquiesce” to an exceptional deal to fund a pastor on a poor calibre “mission” (permanent paid secondment) (instead of putting him under more supervision which would have been roughly proportionate to his serious enough offence)
– journalists
– an architect
– the spouse of an elder
– countless volunteers and Holy Spirit filled believers
– and some people like me
– and that’s less than half the sample looming in my mind
end of first half
second half
Timelines:
– began in a training school abroad in the late 1960s but hit the local papers in my then town in 1993, the international press in 1997, and has festered (not through the fault of the authorities locally) ever since; this one in fact has not very indirect connections to known bribery (somewhere else) and other badly conducted high profile affairs
– began among some insecure underinformed types in the early 1980s about 120 miles from here, was at its apparent worst that I saw 2016-17, when I WASN’T even told what it was about (but saw hosts of red flags no-one was talking about), and the issues are being blithely ignored by even good people (whom I like) “remaining”
– began about 2013, obviously (to me) headed to disaster early 2017, clergyman since taken out of post but congregation unwilling to dissect their own grave part in driving the collective goings-on downhill
I’m not a loud person and I don’t make any promises. There are only a few timid people one can talk intelligently with. I “content” myself that God’s goal all along was only that someone would see, and that happens to be me and very few quiet others.
The life of churches is a mega snooker game where every occurrence is calculated by asset managers to cleverly have lots of “unexpected” knock-on effects. The actual world is run by asset management and material dialectics. The assets are not the funds – those always pop up – it is your soul and mine that are the counted beans, bought and sold.
I hope the four of you will help each other be more comfortable with the diversity of your witnessed observations and live your lives in opposition to the asset managers and I hope the other three are reading this. It’s not a question of whom we think we like, I will side (apparently ineffectually) with people I have no rapport with who were correct in their dynamics.
All the churches – including the “charismatic” – airbrushed Holy Spirit belief and prayer out. A proper deep overview will help everyone get nearer to principles. Your then pastors were too bought into the asset managers and were the enemies of Samantha, Barbara and Shannon even as they were sentimentally attached to them, perhaps reinforced by nice activities together. Those pastors twisted the knife in everybody without exception. I don’t fit the profile of an average commenter here, the wind just blew me in. Hoping this isn’t unhelpful.
Samantha should have repeated herself more explicitly and more often as to her position whatever it actually was, instead of relying on sentimentality. People generally dump things on those seen as fixers, and the goons gleefully welcome that.
Barbara Roberts,
You asked detailed questions at 2.17 on Sunday and “Concerned” has also asked questions essentially of substance. I don’t see detail on your own comment thread but is that a browser problem I’ve got? Can you (re) direct me to what detail has come in so far (there is always more time in fact)?
The only post I saw from her at your blog simply stated Samantha stayed at the church (which is public knowledge) and guessed at the reasons why. None of your other questions were answered unless I was not looking in the correct place.
Shannon Hope Dingle,
When I said I was praying for you, I meant that I have been praying for your for a very long time. I have prayed for your strength as you care for your children. I have prayed for the peace that passes all understanding. The fact that I’ve been doing this for a long time since the passing of your husband does not mean I’m being abusive. I apologize if the context caused you to believe that.
Today, I am going to write another post and apologize for some things. I want to make it clear that there was a group of 8 people trying to get something specific dealt with. It was not about any of the the other victims. Our group was small and you were not part of it. I’m sure you know stuff. Things were flying around during that time. Bad things. So bad that I saw a counselor to talk about it. So bad that I am still in tears and not able to sleep but maybe that is sharing too much.
Aldo, I know you have someone who is able to share with you details of my private life. I tend to be quite open with those that I care about. I have learned a hard lesson through all of this.
Shannon Hope Dingle,
One las thing. Our mutual friend’s family was not part of the group.
Ken A,
Won’t be the last statement of retracted support for some of these organizations. Sit back and watch.
I went over to your blog and eventually, with some difficulty, found the comment where Shannon complains about Dee, and you accuse Dee of not publishing Shannon’s comments.
Fun fact. The first time a person comments on TWW (perhaps on a new device), their comment is reviewed before posting. Certain terms also cause this to happen. This prevents spam, threats, etc. As a highly experienced blogger, you should be familiar with this.
Fun fact. Several of Shannon’s comments have now appeared.
The accusations on this thread are disgusting.
If everybody is silencing everybody else, how come their comments are popping up all over the place?
EVERYBODY JUST STOP.
As the accusations pile up higher and higher, there is less and less ability to identify abuse, let alone prevent it or bring justice and comfort to victims.
Friend,
Thank you for your comment, Friend…. 🙂
I have the same questions as Concerned, and I don’t think those have been addressed.
But I will state that I have a big problem that Ms. Kilpatrick is still a member of Providence, even aside from the original situation with Brian (and I knew him). I know what New Calvinists believe about women and children. I went to see if Providence still holds those beliefs, and it’s clear they do. I had a problem with their beliefs back then and I do now.
I question whether someone who has attended a New Calvinist church for almost 20 years will assign the same amount of dignity to a woman or child as to a man, and that can affect how victims might be treated.
With all due respect to you, Dee, but you never have to apologize for praying for someone or telling them you’re praying for them. If they choose to misinterpret and then publicly mischsaracterize it, that’s their problem, not yours. Some people should find other hobbies to indulge besides internet outrage.
Shannon Hope Dingle,
“Also, classic abusive reply”
++++++++++++++
good grief, shannon.
Hi Michael in UK (and any others who have had trouble finding Shannon’s comment at my ACFJ blog). I did not initially give TWW readers a link to Shannon’s comment at ACFJ comment because I know that sometimes when links are given in blog comments the comment goes automatically to spam, and I didn’t know whether that happens routinely or often at TWW. I also did not want to be accused of trying to drive traffic to my blog.
For those who are interested, I will now give a link to Shannon’s comment at ACFJ — https://cryingoutforjustice.blog/2021/06/18/attacked-from-the-inside-intimate-partner-sexual-violence/#comment-146150
Hi Concerned. You wrote:
I concur that at the ACFJ blog Shannon did not answer all the questions I had put to her here at TWW. While Shannon responded to my questions, she did not answer them all.
I cannot comment on why Shannon did not answer each of my questions in detail; that would be for her to explain, not for me to speculate .
Hello Friend. You wrote:
I did not “accuse Dee of not publishing Shannon’s comments”.
Here is the verbatim wording of my reply to Shannon’s comment at ACFJ —
BEGIN QUOTE
“Thank you for your comment, Shannon Hope Dingle. I appreciate you going to the trouble of commenting here at the ACFJ blog.
For readers who are wondering what this is about, Dee Parsons from The Wartburg Watch (TWW) recently published a blog post titled Why I Can No Longer Support G.R.A.C.E.
There have been a lot of comments at Dee’s blog post (and on Twitter) about Dee’s change of mind regarding G.R.A.C.E.
Shannon Hope Dingle and I have both commented several times at Dee’s blog post. Shannon has now commented here at the ACFJ blog. Shannon tells us that Dee is not publishing all of what Shannon has submitted in comments at TWW. If this is true (and I have no reason do doubt Sharon’s truthfulness) it is deeply worrying to me, but it does not surprise me.
This brings up the question of the rights and wrongs of a blog owner choosing to not publish some comments at his or her blog. At my own blogs, I choose not to publish comments that seem to me to be from abusers and their allies who are trying to throw spanners in the works, or trying to frighten or trigger victims, or trying to spread lies and myths and misinformation. I also choose not to publish some comments from people who claim to be survivors but who, despite my courteous requests, repeatedly tell other victims what to do, or what to think or what they should feel and what they should not be feeling. However, when a commenter submits a comment questioning my understanding of the facts or my opinion or my conclusions, I generally publish the comment and then reply to it. That can lead to fruitful dialogue. It can also lead to us learning more information about the issue under discussion. This kind of public dialogue can be time consuming, but if both parties want to pursue it, other readers can benefit … which means the survivor and advocacy community can benefit. This is the kind of dialogue I like to encourage.
I might at some stage publish a blog post here at ACFJ about Dee’s change of mind regarding G.R.A.C.E. I do not have time at the moment to publish such a post as I am in the process of preparing to move house. I am moving from Melbourne to rural Victoria. I also have many other things on my ‘must write’ list!
END QUOTE
Friend, kindly pay attention to the way I used the word *if* when I wrote about Dee.
I cast no aspersions on Shannon, or on Dee. It is my hope that all of us will grow and learn from this experience.
As a writer I know how easy it is to be misunderstood, and how easy it is to use words in a way that is capable of being misunderstood by others. It is quite difficult to write phrases and sentences that have no ambiguity. It is also hard to write well when one is stressed and lacking sleep, as Dee has told us she is. I therefore am trying to be patient and courteous with all, while doing my little bit to help readers think through and understand the facts and truths about this matter as much as they are able to.
Lastly, Friend, I do not appreciate your telling me how blog moderation can work. I am already familiar with the different ways blog moderators can and do moderate comments at their blogs. I do not appreciate you talking down to me in a sarcastic tone.
Barbara Roberts,
Quoting you over there:
“Shannon tells us that Dee is not publishing all of what Shannon has submitted in comments at TWW. If this is true (and I have no reason do doubt Sharon’s truthfulness) it is deeply worrying to me, but it does not surprise me.”
You then go on to give your reasons for choosing not to publish comments on your own blog. You are not Dee. Your blog appears to clear comments in a different way from TWW.
Please move on to Dee’s next post. It’s time to stop speculating and return to a constructive discussion about combating abuse.
I submitted a comment here several hours ago, which went live immediately, i.e. it showed as a public comment. Now it has vanishedd.