Mark Gungor on Instagram
A little rape is good for a man’s soul.- Norman Mailer
Mark Gungor
Who is Mark Gungor? Do you know what sort of education he obtained? Mark Gungor’s bio on his website says:
Mark Gungor is one of the most sought-after speakers on marriage and relationships in the world today. Each year thousands of couples attend his Couples’ Comedy Events. Mark’s candid and comedic approach uses unforgettable illustrations and the power of laughter to teach proven principles that are guaranteed to strengthen any relationship.
For over a decade, Mark’s materials have been the #1 resources for improving relationships used by the US Military.
Mark has also been featured on national broadcasts and publications such as Focus on the Family, Life Today, ABC News, the Washington Times and Newsweek.
Celebration Church in Wisconsin is where he is the lead pastor. The website states the following::
Mark Gungor is one of the most sought-after speakers on marriage and relationships in the world today. Each year thousands of couples attend his Couples’ Comedy Events. Mark’s candid and comedic approach uses unforgettable illustrations and the power of laughter to teach proven principles that are guaranteed to strengthen any relationship.
For over a decade, Mark’s materials have been the #1 resources for improving relationships used by the US Military.
Mark has also been featured on national broadcasts and publications such as Focus on the Family, Life Today, ABC News and the Washington Times.
Once again, there is nothing about his education or training. Sadly, I learned a bit more about him from his wife’s obituary. I am sorry for her passing. I stopped and prayed for the family. I have heard that he has since remarried.
After graduating high school in 1972, she married her high school sweetheart Mark Gungor of nearby Neillsville.
The Gungors then helped form one of earliest Christian rock bands and Debbie was the lead vocalist. They traveled all over the US and Europe for 5 years, performing in everything from simple tent meetings to elaborate cathedrals and famous music halls to dingy discoteques. Their daughter Leslie was born in Gothenburg, Sweden while on tour.
The Gungors then entered the ministry and served in churches in Monroe, WI (where they added their son Phillip to the family), Waukegan, IL, Decatur, IL, Marshfield, WI, Green Bay, WI, Stevens Point, WI and finally back to Green Bay where they served at Celebration Church.
In 2003, Mark and Debbie began doing marriage seminars called “Laugh Your Way to a Better Marriage”. They have traveled World-wide sharing their stories and insights into how to have a healthy and successful marriage
Mark is primarily known as a comedian who speaks about marriage, and you may have heard of his “Laugh Your Way to a Better Marriage” curriculum or “A Tale of Two Brains”.
So we know that he formed his ministry with the help of his former wife. Again, we have no further information on his educational background which I think should be front and center if he is teaching families how to stay together. It is also important if he is advising the military in any capacity.
One person described him as a charismatic entertainer who relies on misogynistic tropes both from the stage and online. Julie Anne Smith at Spiritual Sounding Board dissects some of this and shows how his social media is filled with misogynist memes.
Lexi’s story and her encounter with her former pastor, Mark Gungor.
The audio I’m posting below was recorded by a young woman named Lexi, who was once part of Celebration Church. Roughly four years ago, in December 2016, when she was 17, she was sexually assaulted by another church member. She later found out that one of her friends was assaulted by the same person. They went to their youth pastor, who directed them to talk to Mark. The first thing out of Mark’s mouth when they told their story was:
“What were you girls thinking?”
The police were called, but charges were not pursued at that time. However, her treatment by her so-called “shepherds” caused Lexi to leave the church and fractured her relationships with many of her friends and family.
Here is a link to Lexi’s story. It will be helpful to read this sad story before listening to the audio. I think he should be known by his alleged first words to lexie “What were you thinking?” Such words place the blame of the molestation squarely on the shoulders of the victim.
Lexi then called Gungor two days after she posted her story. It is obvious that this encounter is difficult for her but she bravely carries on calling Gungor out. (This conversation was recorded in Wisconsin, a state that allows recording if one person is aware of it, even if the other is not)
The concerning exchange that Mark Gungor had with Sheila Gregoire. (This is important to understand some things heard in the audio. Lexie and Sheila’s story intersect.)
In early April, Mark Gungor posted on his Facebook Page, which has almost 300,000 followers, that sexless marriages were a cause for separation. Sheila Wray Gregoire, whom I have written about before when she took on Focus on the Family for promoting the book Love & Respect, left a comment to try to provide some nuance. She has recently surveyed 20,000 Christian women for her book The Great Sex Rescue, and she commented that her survey found that sexlessness was a sign that there was something else going on in the marriage, it wasn’t usually the problem in and of itself. She suggested that one needs to address the underlying cause, rather than assuming the person not having sex is always to blame.
That started a firestorm, which is hard to describe since Gungor weighed in on social media
- Mark Gungor wrote a very disparaging post about Sheila, and started making fun of her in the comments of his Facebook Page, calling her “psychotic”, saying “sadly she’s real”, “disgusting”, “poison” and “arrogant.” He laughed when others joked about her in sexual terms.
- When what appeared to be hundreds of commenters called him out on his behavior, he deleted their comments on his Facebook Page, saying they were being “offensive”, even if they were very calm and collected and appealed to the Bible to call us to more
- He jumped on Twitter and continued to issue crazy insults towards Sheila, while she kept calm and kept asking if she could simply share her research with him.
To understand more of the context, Shannon Ashley has written a long article on Medium about it, and here is Sheila’s Twitter thread explaining it.
When Mark Gungor appeared to be attacking Sheila on Twitter, Lexi (who had never heard of Sheila before this) saw it. It was the first time that she had ever seen anyone call out Mark publicly on social media. She then contacted Gregoire which resulted in her writing her story for the first time. (Yay, Lexie!) She tweeted out a link to the Google document explaining her story which I have provided above.
The Audio
Lexi confronts Mark Gungor in this audio.
It is important to note that Mark seems determined to change the conversation to how Sheila (“this crazy woman”) was beating him up on social media. Lexi keeps trying to steer the conversation back to her story and does an excellent job of getting Mark to reveal his personality…
As you will note, the very first thing Mark says is quite explosive! As you listen, ask yourself if this is the way for a real pastor to respond to a hurt, young woman.
Audio Timestamps of some of the pertinent statements.
0:00 “If he was truly a rapist, he would have been arrested.”
0:45 Mark changes the subject to talk about how he has been attacked all week
3:00 Lexi tries to get Mark to talk about her issue, rather than Mark’s social media problems
3:30 Mark tries to apologize, but Lexi holds his feet to the fire and says it’s not a real apology
4:00 Mark defends himself saying, If you had a daughter and she had her top off and she was assaulted, you don’t think you’d say, “what were you thinking?”
6:10 “He gets to go to church–We don’t just cancel people’s lives.” Mark explains how her abuser is still allowed to go to church, and they get into a wider discussion of why abusers are allowed to go to church even though that makes the victims feel unsafe.
8:54 Lexi explains how she has heard from a woman who wanted to divorce her abusive husband, and Mark offered to pay to help her separate, but wouldn’t give her anything if she divorced.
9:45 Lexi says she’s disappointed in how Mark has treated women and handled criticism.
10:00 Mark says he only deletes comments from people who attack him; Lexi says that he deleted her when she commented about how he had victim-blamed her years ago.
12:00 Mark claims that if Lexi publicly calls him out on how he blamed her years ago, then she is claiming he’s a horrible person, and thus he’s in his rights to delete her.
13:00 Lexi confronts him on how he handled an intern who was caught using child porn.
15:50 Lexi tries to get Mark to draw the distinction between people attacking him and people making a valid critique.
16:30 Lexi tries to talk about how people can hold Mark accountable.
17:15 Mark says that if someone accuses him of something, they are de facto insulting him.
18:25 Mark says he was on the phone with Shaunti Feldhahn (he calls her FeldMAN), Emerson Eggerichs, and Kevin Leman the day before talking about Sheila and what they will do about her.
20:30 Lexi points out that a frequent theme in Mark’s social media is that it’s lame to get offended–and yet he’s getting so offended!
22:30 Mark says that Lexi may think he’s unprofessional for tweeting as he did, but “that’s who I am!”
22:46 Mark says he doesn’t think his life should be canceled. Lexi says that she disagrees–because he won’t reflect on how some of the things he’s said are harmful to people, and he really needs to reflect on that.
23:30 Mark says hundreds of thousands of people have told him that he saved their marriage–and the military loves him and gives him great marks as a speaker and gives him great feedback.
24:10 Lexi asks, “but do you think about the people that you’ve hurt?” He replies later, “The fact that I have 500 people who think I’ve destroyed their lives…Go to any professional pastor [and you’ll have the same thing.]
26:15 Mark’s response to Lexi saying “after I left your church I stopped believing in God” is to say, “I don’t hate you.”
Calling attention to some things from the audio.
Mark says that it’s only (considered) rape if the police press charges.
He also says (at the 5:00 mark) “if it was a major assault he’d be in jail.”This is concerning since few rapes are ever prosecuted. He appears to be woefully uneducated in this area.
How does Mark attempt to apologize?
He once again appears to demonstrate that he is woefully unprepared to counsel a parishioner who has been assaulted. I wonder what seminary he attended?…
“I’m sorry that you felt hurt. I didn’t intend to hurt you. It was not my goal to hurt you. I’m sorry that I hurt you–BUT all I said was…” Lexi rightly calls him out on that.
Does Mark think you can cause someone to assault you?
He definitely seems to think it was Lexi’s fault for making out with the boy. Lexi keeps her cool amazingly well when he’s doing this. Good for her!
Mark says he’s powerless to stop abusive husbands from going to the church after divorces.
Ummm, once again Gungor demonstrates his lack of understanding of the laws surrounding churches. When I first started blogging, Jeff Anderson, a well-known attorney who has sued the RCC, told me that I had a number of rights so that I can write about abuse in the church. However, he told me that he could not prevent a church from dismissing me as a member.
Gungor appears to demonstrate little training in the area of church polity. Did he actually get his MDiv? Is he actually stating an abuser can keep attending the church where he allegedly abused a person? Ummm, not unless the church wants him to attend.
Mark says that legitimate criticism of him counts as being offensive.
Lexi read out her comment that he deleted. She merely tells her story that is probably difficult for him to hear. She said that, as a minor, she went to him about her sexual abuse and he blamed her. He claims that by repeating this on social media that she is attacking him and he has the right to delete her. Any criticism is therefore an attack.
Listen to his communication style which appears centered on himself. He appears to down talk to Lexi, a woman.
- At 12:54, he appears to whine, saying, “What more do you want us to do?”
- At 13:20 he mixes up her name and she corrects him, and he seems to berate her: “And don’t say ‘Oh, geez, you don’t even know my name!’, because I’ve only got, what, 4000 people in my church, and we haven’t talked in how many YEARS.”
- At 20:12 he says, “That’s not calling out, DEAR, that’s insulting people.” Just listen to how he says DEAR! He says it again at 21:14–”I’m trying to explain to you, DEAR.” It’s like he’s spitting it out at her!
He allegedly deletes critical comments on his Facebook page.
This includes those by Lexi.
Mark appears to have little or no accountability.
Mark says that to hold him accountable, you go to the pastors over him and the elders. Lexi retorted, “There are no pastors over you. You’re the lead pastor and you’re the president of the board.” She goes on to allege that his board is stacked with family members.
He replies he does have pastors over him–and mentions several (some he has to struggle to remember where they are) who live far away, including a bishop in Africa (he goes unnamed), Tim Kimmel, and Jimmy Bradshaw (I couldn’t hear his name properly). So basically he has no accountability.
There appears to be a lack of pastoral care for Lexi.
Lexi says that after she left his church after he treated her so badly and she stopped believing in God. His response? “I don’t hate you.” He shows no care for her at all. No follow-up questions to see if she’s okay. Again, he appears to be poorly trained, or is he exhibiting a poor emotional quotient. Maybe both?
He says those who “think I’ve destroyed their lives” don’t matter.
Mark says that everyone gets accused of something, so hurting people doesn’t really matter. “I’m in front of hundreds of thousands of people. You can’t make them all happy.” It seems he means that he doesn’t have to address criticism!
He appears to imply that if he destroys the lives of 500 people, it doesn’t matter, because every professional has destroyed at least some lives,
My question. “Is he even a professional? What sort of license does he have? ”
Lexi ended the call by saying, “The amount of arrogance in this phone call is astounding.”
Lexi appears to have been quite hurt by Gungor. Did Gungor understand this? Somehow, I’m inclined to doubt it.
Sheila Gregoire appears to have been a target when it comes to Mark Gungor
I know some of that is hard to follow, so here’s a little more context:
- When Mark says that he is being criticized for talking about Sheila in sexual terms, he’s referring to this tweet.
- Mark says Shaunti Feldhahn has written a statement about Sheila (although Mark calls her Shaunti FeldMAN). Sheila wrote one in response. She links to Shaunti’s in hers, so you can read them both here.
- Mark constantly claims that people were “attacking him” and “calling him evil.” For the record, I’ve seen the screenshots and the Twitter conversations, and Sheila never attacked anyone personally, nor did I see her followers doing that. The only people I saw calling people evil and calling names were Mark and his followers.
- Shaunti Feldhahn (For Women Only), Kevin Leman (Sheet Music), and Emerson Eggerichs (Love & Respect) have all written best-selling marriage books that Sheila Gregoire shows in her book The Great Sex Rescue contain very harmful messages that hurt women’s marital and sexual satisfaction.
Why has the military featured programs by Mark Gungor given his misogynistic material and an apparent lack of understanding on how to care for victims of abuse?
According to this bio:
Mark is one of the most requested speakers for the U.S. Army and his Laugh Your Way materials are used extensively by Chaplains and military personnel.
If he is doing programs for the military, is the military comfortable with his objectification of women? It is my understanding that the armed services have been making strides in this area. I challenge military leaders to watch the video, “Tale of Two Brains”, and see if they agree that the film is misogynist! Also, the leaders should take a look at his Instagram or Facebook feed and view memes that appear to objectify women.
Mark Gungor ratchets up the rhetoric in his sermon the day after his phone call with Lexi by discussing it in his sermon!
Once again, I ask, “Which seminary did he attend?” In Celebration Church’s worship service, Gungor made reference to this phone call in his sermon, just prior to communion. I wonder if he knew the discussion was recorded?
This is how Mark characterizes this conversation with Lexi:
“My day started out yesterday, some lady calls me and she’s just chewing me out for something I said to her 8 years ago [Note: It was 4 ½]. I don’t remember what I had for breakfast. …If I said something bad, then I’m sorry. But that’s not enough! What do you want me to do? You need to stop pastoring! You need to quit speaking at churches about relationships! Because that’s that cancel culture. Once you sin there is no forgiveness….I’m convinced some of these people if they could literally kill you, they would. But at least if they could just destroy your life so you don’t have a life, that’s what they go for….This cancel culture has its roots in sin and unforgiveness and bitterness. If somebody called you a poopyhead, let it go. “Well, they need to apologize!” I don’t know if they do. Jesus died on the cross and he said, “Father, forgive them.” Did any of them say they’re sorry? No. Now, should you say you’re sorry. Well, yeah. But that should be the end of it. Anyway, let’s take communion.”
You can listen to one of the church services on the church Facebook here ( I am prevented from embedding the video.) Start at 54:15 for the next roughly two minutes going into communion. That’s what’s quoted here.
Start at minute 46.
I know this post was long and a bit confusing but it was worth the effort.
Mark Gungor on Instagram
Makes me weep . . .
Why would anyone go to a church pastored by this man?
What is the military thinking . . .
I wonder if Jesus is weeping.
Mark Gungor is claiming cancel culture? Psht. Sorry, I’m with LeVar on this one. It’s not cancel culture, it’s consequence culture, Mr. Gungor.
I don’t support ‘Cancel Culture,’ (and yes, it’s a thing, it really does exist, and it is often used to silence political dissent and dissenters).
However, that is not what’s going on with Gungor in this situation.
He’s using that concept to hide behind, rather than take responsibility.
Bridget,
“Why would anyone go to a church pastored by this man? ”
This is my neck of the woods; and having spoken with a few people who attended so…..
Long answer short: Bayside Christian Fellowship was a church that was “a mile wide, and an inch deep”. I believe that the former pastor eventually saw this {after having contributed to such, and finally recognizing what he had done}, but trying to get such a church to deepen its faith ended up being a losing battle with people who were comfortable with attending a feel-good service.
Then Mark Gungor came in with his comedy club routine; & changed the name to “Celebration Church”; and people laughed, and felt good….and could still claim to be Christians, even though it would probably be cheaper to pay a sitter, and go out to an actual comedy club, and bar on Saturday night.
Or, you could just go with good old-fashioned sin: 2 Timothy 4:3 “For the time is coming when people will not endure sound[a] teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,”
While he cancels comments on his fb that he believes are critical of him.
Cancel culture indeed.
I watched the video on Julie Anne’s blog. This Gungor character is just bottom feeding scum who sees women as objects to be used for sexual gratification, and nothing more.
U. S. military …… really??? For the first 14 years of our marriage, my husband was active duty and I’d never heard of the scumbag. But then hubby was Special Forces (“old school” Special Forces)…… and the “old school” wives are just as bad-a$$ as the soldiers – we have to be. So, maybe he was afraid to mess with us.
At least as far as the military goes, don’t believe that junk about marriage being all about sex for the men ( hey, I know you don’t believe it, anyway). It’s not the sex, it’s the cooking. Don’t believe me? Go eat at a mess hall, or live on MREs for a few months! ( I think it was the fried chicken, gravy, mashed potatoes, and biscuits, after my then boyfriend got back from Saudi Arabia, that got me in so much trouble ….. to start with anyway.). (Yeah, here we go with the fried chicken again!)
Just a little advice as a side note : For all the single ladies – – if you know how to cook, sew (military patches, fun, fun), bait your own hooks, scale fish, home can, change a tire, pluck feathers, skin and process game ……. all that stuff ——- don’t ever let a single man know, especially if he’s in the military. Don’t do it. Just play dumb.
I’m not kidding, really, I’m not.
Iwoots,
Thanks for that info.
I couldn’t, wouldn’t put up with the man.
I saw most of this as it went down on Twitter & sadly Mark Gungor’s responses to Sheila were really poor, & he was humouring at least one sexual joke being made against her by a follower. It really wasn’t pretty. Plus I absolutely hate the kind of casual sexism that he pushes, as shown by the memes you re-posted. All that ‘little’ woman stuff is hideous.
Just read Julie Anne’s article, and there is are truly disgusting comments by Mark Gungor that show the depravity of his misogyny. The one that struck me the most was when he says men wouldn’t have any interest in women if it wasn’t for their genitals.
Ugh, I shudder to imagine what skeletons this guy has in his closet.
Dee, thank you so much for posting this. This is unbelievable. Way worse than I thought he was.
I can’t believe that Mark was so obsessed with me that he kept changing the conversation when he was talking with Lexi to his interactions with me. I want to say for the record, too, that I saw many of the comments that he deleted. So many just appealed to him in Christian love to consider another point of view and engage in dialog. They weren’t offensive or mean at all. I have a lot of screenshots (they sent them to me knowing they’d be deleted and they’d be blocked, because he deleted & blocked everyone that week who didn’t agree with him.
I’m glad that his interaction with me was the catalyst for Lexi finally being able to confront him. I think she did an amazing job. At least some good can come out of this. And now maybe others will see who he really is!
Sheila Wray Gregoire,
Sheila, you and Lexi were so patient, stalwart, and noble! Your interactions were civil with Christian love and decency while this clownman responded with degradation. God bless you and Lexi a hundredfold. Brava.
The only thing I would add is that the verse about not throwing pearls to swine came to mind as I read the interactions. Over the course of his responses, he was showing who he is. As Maya Angelou notes, when people show us who they are, we can believe it. Those who attend and support his church and events, are throwing their pearls of time and resources to … and can know this if only by reading what you went through with this caricature of a “Christian” man.
Again, God bless. Is there a book in this? I’d buy it in a heartbeat, as your experience validates toxic masculinity as practiced by some churchmen that all God-seeking women need to understand and deal with, avoid, confront, etc.
“Mark is primarily known as a comedian …”
“Christian Comedian” is not on the list of spiritual gifts or sacred offices in my Bible. Such characters can only find a home in corners of the American church where actors, stages, and entertainment are the theme. Instead of laughing, the church needs to be weeping more … but you probably won’t find that in Mr. Gungor’s church.
Swine should never be in charge of the pearls.
“after I left your church I stopped believing in God”
This is never the testimony of sheep who have had a true shepherd.
“Which seminary did he attend?”
Sounds like he was an understudy of Mark Driscoll.
Yes! So pearls, we walk away, no, run, while shaking the dust off our sandals. The faithful God-seeking are precious to God but not to swine. When leaders show who they really are, time to remove ourselves from their influence.
Hadn’t heard of this fraud.
The claim that the military loves this person is concerning. My Air Force experience convinced me that the military has many hardcore Evangelicals who exhibit attitudes prevalent among civilian Evangelicals. There have been many cases, for example, of them placing personal and career pressures on non-Evangelical personnel in misguided conversion attempts. I am not surprised that Evangelical misogyny and patriarchy, as articulated by Mark Gungor, might be popular speaking topics at military events.
Uneducated, old fashioned man who has been calling the shots in his church for way too long. Ingnorant and unwilling to learn, arrogant and not able to humble himself. He is afraid losing his income (all that money!), losing his influence and reputation. When he hears that one of his church member has been assulted and as consequence lost her faith, he is not showing any concern or compassion for her. Jesus talks about wolves in sheep’s clothing. You will know if the tree is good or bad from their fruit.
So who in the military was using him? Search on .mil shows some directly mentioning him such as:
198th Infantry Brigade in 2009 “Sponsored by Strong Bonds, a chaplain-led program designed to enrich and strengthen marriages, the weekend retreat centered on the theme of laughter with Mark Gungor’s “Laugh Your Way to a Better Marriage” teaching curriculum.
…
The 198th Infantry Brigade typically completes about six Strong Bonds retreats each year.” https://www.army.mil/article/31320/couples_develop_strong_bonds
More recently (2020)
https://va.ng.mil/News/News-Article-view/Article/2377960/vng-couples-laugh-their-way-to-stronger-marriage/
Strong Bonds is https://www.strongbonds.org/
I suspect weekend retreats for couples with childcare provided is a good in its own right.
With all the problems of sexual assault on female soldiers with at least one of them being murdered down in Texas (Ft. Hood), the Army requests this a$$-wipe?
The civilian head of the Army needs to put out a memo that Gungor is not allowed on any Post, anywhere!
I don’t tweet and do facebook, but I’d like to know, are there any men out there in the twitterverse who are as pissed-off (at Gungor) as I am?
Sheila Wray Gregoire,
This post needed to be written. I have some concerns about his bio and am starting to look into it. I was too tired late last night. Stand strong. I wonder if he has seen the post?
Erp,
I’m wondering if the military is aware of his material? Or, if they are, are they keeping it on the down low?
Muff Potter,
Any idea of how to contact the military for these things? Maybe through the chaplains office?
Sarah Eze,
Do you know if he had any post graduate education? I’m suspicious here.
Sheila Wray Gregoire,
I agree. I think he just puts these things out there as opposed to discussing his credentials. Still trying to figure out his education.
From the OP: “Mark constantly claims that people were “attacking him” and “calling him evil.” For the record, I’ve seen the screenshots and the Twitter conversations, and Sheila never attacked anyone personally, nor did I see her followers doing that. The only people I saw calling people evil and calling names were Mark and his followers.”
The thought occurs that this might be “projection”. It’s hard to understand other people and others’ perspectives and easy to interpret them in terms that one already understands, such as the structure of one’s own thoughts, motives and intentions.
—-
I kind of interpret MG’s success as another manifestation of the ways the churches have changed toward the prevailing culture. Self-help has been big business outside the churches for a long time, and is now common inside.
Regarding the military angle, I have the impression that USO shows tend to lie (or used to lie) on the spectrum from sexual innuendo toward outright raunch, and the flavor tends toward misogyny. That MG is well received does not surprise me.
dee,
Sorry, I don’t know about his education. He seems uneducated in how to deal with abuse victims, how to behave in Internet and how to be a spiritual shepard. Which includes great concern about hurting people and those who have lost their faith.
dee,
The National Guard in Virginia used Gungor’s book. This article (linked elsewhere too) implies that he was not a speaker. It looks like the chaplains adapted content from the book to make a presentation to couples:
Strong Bonds events can cover a variety of topics and include several curriculum choices. Chaplains and their assistants attend certification courses prior to teaching a specific curriculum.
“‘Laugh Your Way’ is only one type of curriculum you can do at a Strong Bonds event,” said Spc. Brittany Engels, a religious affairs specialist assigned to JFHQ-VA. “You have to be trained in the curriculum to teach it.”
https://va.ng.mil/News/News-Article-view/Article/2377960/vng-couples-laugh-their-way-to-stronger-marriage/
I’ll see if I can determine how widespread this was/is, and identify whom to contact. This might be limited to an Army National Guard unit in Virginia using a book, or it might be happening in the regular Army or elsewhere.
Maybe people should leave comments on that YouTube video on Mark Gungor’s church channel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqpGhSXu2l0&t=2733s
dee,
If you want to, I suggest you contact the State Chaplain for the Army National Guard in Virginia, Chaplain (Colonel) Benjamin Sprouse. The Williamsburg event is highlighted on this page:
https://va.ng.mil/Programs-Resources/Chaplain-Support/
The page has a dropdown menu that allows you to select State Chaplain on a contact form.
It’s hard to say if Mark Gungor’s material is (still) used widely, or if he is really a sought-after speaker for military couples, as he claims. He certainly tries to sell himself to the military.
Past uses of his material in the military seem to be exclusively through chaplains, not through medical, mental health, or morale & welfare channels. Military chaplains have their own hierarchy.
I tried to determine whether Gungor books are sold in military exchange stores, and the only results that came back were for ginkgo. 🙂
Actually, Mark Driscoll did have a seminary of sorts, oddly enough. I know of a pastor who went there. Now I’m googling it, and it seems to have been something called “re:train” through “The Resurgence” – which seems to surge no more, though it still has an internet footprint: https://evangelicalcalvinist.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-gospel-coalition-resurgence-re.html
dee,
Air National Guard unit in Florida used the “Laugh your Way” this month. Gungor is not specifically mentioned in the article. There is a short video.
https://www.dvidshub.net/video/795300/strong-bonds-marriage-retreat-leans-laughter
OK so now we have an Army National Guard unit in Virginia, and an Air National Guard unit in Florida, using this material. I will keep looking.
Well, he was at Ft. Campbell in 2012 with the 101st Airborne.
https://www.dvidshub.net/news/95479/currahees-laugh-their-way-stronger-bonds
This was 6 years after hubby retired, and he was not connected with the 101st. I wonder if Gungor likes to target a younger audience?
…. male brain vs. female brain……. everybody loved it….. free lodging and childcare……..
Eeewwwwwww!!! No wonder crime rates have been on the uptick in Oak Grove, KY and Clarksville, TN.
Maybe they need the suggestion to book Dee as a speaker. Or, to supply @sheilagregoire’s materials to their constituency and @sheilagregoire as a speaker. Taxpayer $$$ better spent.
We, taxpayers, apparently are paying for a perverted clown, meanwhile, to edu-tertain our troops, in the name of his own perverted clown “god”. Misogyny on the taxpayer’s (many are women) dime.
With a criminal-adjacent clown as entertainment. No wonder. God help Green Bay. God help the military; God save the republic.
Remind, plz … what are the Green Bay church’s affiliations? These authorizers sanction this?
I think it is his videos that are used at the military chaplain sponsored retreats.
https://www.strongbonds.org/Resources/Articles/Success-Stories/Story-3
Note these videos might be relatively ok.
Maybe, but the slide that compares a wife to a kangaroo is informative. Wives are “untrainable.” Take a look at his Instagram. It’s just the same old battle of the sexes from “The Honeymooners.” The man is a fossil.
And let’s not forget how many women serve in the military. Some of them are married. Mark Gungor’s dim-witted form of sexism seems to assume that trouble at home comes in part from the husband being the Take Charge Soldier.
https://www.instagram.com/therealmarkgungor/
Mark Gungor was at our church like 20 years ago. While some of the stuff he said was funny, most of it just enraged me. My husband was not impressed either because of Gungor’s stereotyping that was not us. Ever since then I have always felt sick to my stomach when anyone in my church promoted him or had some small group where thy used his material.
We should also not forget that the large majority of our military personnel are relatively young and very far from home…….new environment……new “friends”…….. people from who knows where and with who knows what kind of backgrounds…..
They have no close support system, made up of people they know and trust. That situation puts some serious strains on marriages, even for those of us who are seasoned vets. I think younger married couples (the men, in particular) would be very susceptible to just about any kind of “program”.
On a positive note, I know a female captain (she’s maybe 5’3”, beautiful petite blonde) and several SF wives (myself, included) who would get a real kick out of bringing Gungor to his knees, begging for mercy.
Dr George Simon is not writing about Mark Gungor but an apparent similarity to this type of person. I believe Dr Simon describes a person who acts as Mark does very well as follows: “The use and abuse of others has become chillingly common these days. And that’s because there’s so much character dysfunction in the world. Too many folks these days have failed to outgrow the natural tendency we all have toward self-centeredness, egoism, and self-serving ambition. To put it more succinctly, there are too many folks out there with underdeveloped consciences. And such folks inevitably treat others poorly. They use and abuse others in a variety of ways. And the more lacking in conscience a person is, the more serious their abusive ways are likely to be. Moreover, a person lacking in both conscience and empathy is capable of all manner of victimization.”
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
Times have changed, dramatically. Military leaders and underlings alike do not want to live in the 1950s.
The Army recently revamped grooming regulations, so women with longer hair can now have a braid or pony tail instead of a bun. Honestly, I never thought about this, but a perfect bun is tricky to form and maintain all day. Of course, some men tweeted that they would never promote a woman with a pony tail or braid. [eyeroll]
Here’s an article about the new standard:
https://www.army.mil/article/246037/army_authorizes_female_soldiers_ponytails_in_all_uniforms
Friend,
Ha ha! It’s about time …….. I’ve been seeing women in uniform with French braid ponytails for several years, now!
I have very, very rarely seen skirts – even dress greens have a version with ladies pants.
Honestly.
The thing that has been most shocking in social media and pastors is to see how few have any idea how to even pretend to be a kind decent person? Like, it is literally so easy and they can’t manage. Crazy.
And mark thinks any pushback deserves censure which is why he will never change, never learn, never grown.
Oh dear I don’t think I’ve ever perfected a bun! Let alone for the whole day. Braids otoh are quite functional.
That could only be spoken by someone who “thinks with the wrong head”.
First Time Obedient to any order from Captain Bonerhelmet.
“TO THE MOON, ALICE!” (SMACK!)
A comedian who poses as a preacher as he trashes women in his stand-up (sermons) definitely lacks conscience and empathy. No wonder he feeds victims to predators in his church as he covers for the rapists. All while making great money off of degrading women. Sick.
BTW, it is equally degrading to men to hold that they cannot control their desires & actions, thus are naturally destined to be predators. Sick for both genders. Even more so that this is put out there by “men of god”. (Vomit.)
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Some live life between their legs.
Others between their ears, if religious it’s all theology & whatnot, without love, actually.
Some sacrifice all to achieve & attain … whatnot.
Others with their eyes; everything has to look just so at any cost.
Still others between their jaws.
Finally, some plunge their high straight into a vein on their arms, or straightaway pop pills, or chug it down quick & often.
God help us all.
Thank God, Jesus died to save us from all of the above.
Those who actually preach and teach that “a man can’t help it ladies, so he’s all yours to deal with”, don’t get it, and they certainly don’t know Jesus. Not the Jesus I know.
1 John 2:16 “For the world offers only a craving for physical pleasure, a craving for everything we see, and pride in our achievements and possessions. These are not from the Father, but are from this world.”
OT(?) or why preachers and pew-donor-supporters protecting predators is bad policy:
https://www.al.com/news/2021/05/alabama-pastor-sentenced-to-15-years-in-prison-for-raping-children-released-after-5-years.html
Here’s a preacher who served time for CSA in Alabama, got released early, and is now planning to move to Texas to start another church.
That is really good.
Dee, this article is excellent. I’ve broken down the phone call between Lexi and Gungor using the tools of abuse from Psalm 82 Initiative, as well. It’s quite disturbing how Gungor uses every tool in the abuser toolbox during his call with her, and then again in his sermon the next day.
Mark Gungor: Missing the Mark on Sex Abuse in Church
https://www.wildernesstowild.com/members/posts/63393-mark-gungor-missing-the-mark-on-sex-abuse-in-the-church
Hi Dee – thank you for writing on this. As a follow up to your article, every church scheduled to host Mark Gungor for a speaking engagement was contacted mid-April with links to to the Facebook and Twitter exchanges.
One church, Calvary Chapel Fellowship in St. Petersburg, FL, responded immediately and canceled Mark’s event.
This story has so many ugly parts, I wanted to bring this church up as a bright spot of Christians showing leadership.
*Note, I don’t attend this church and know absolutely nothing about them apart from their conduct in this matter.
https://www.ccfstpete.church/
Once again when it comes to pastoral conduct (and leaving alleged assailants in active fellowship, including with alleged victims), 1 Timothy 3, Titus 1, and 1 Corinthians 5 don’t seem to come up, especially when contextualizing proof texts that excuse any consequences with a vague if-someone-had-an-issue-sorry utterance.
20John,
Complicit.
Birds of a feather… they always find each other.
He’d squeal like a stuck hog.
We all know the type, big on bluster, short on the real goods.
Macho Mike and Bullfrog Bill, they can’t hold a candle to the Russian women who fought and died on the Eastern Front (1941-1945).
My wife and I went to a strong bonds event in 2019 that featured video of Laugh your way to a better marriage.
The parts we watched were not overtly christian, and it seemed pretty vanilla in substance.
Len,
He’s describing psychopathy .
This describes psychopathy or Dark Triad personality disorders. The level of contempt in his online videos ,and especially the recorded phone conversation,all under the disguise of humor to make it more palatable and salable/marketable,is astonishing !! His apologies were empty- no ownership of what he did or said, no support of the victims in believing them and protecting them. He most certainly is not qualified to be a victim of abuse counselor or advocate, let alone pastoral counseling,based on what we see and hear from him.
Thanks for sharing your experience. That’s very helpful perspective.
I’m convinced that there are many demons in American pulpits. Some are hard to spot … Andrews is not. Certain corners of pentecostalism are so spiritually open-minded about such characters that their brains have fallen out. Restore him to the pulpit?! NO!! This man should be permanently disqualified from ministry; IMO, he has already permanently disqualified himself from Heaven.
What this OP highlights, in addition to just the behavior of a abuse, is the lack of Fundamentalism/Evangelicalism to allow discussion/debate/disagreement of pew peons with leadership.
As an academic, discussion/debate/ disagreement is basic to our world ( however, it is going away with all the “social justice”/PC talk these days..
If Fundamentalist/Evangelicalism leaders were REALLY secure in their beliefs/thoughts, they would not behave like this guy did/does….
JC really modeled great ways to respond to people challenging your “position”
And the American church calls some of them “Pastor”!! TWW continues to record ministers and ministries which are “a dwelling for demons, a haunt for every unclean spirit.”
Sarah O,
Most churches schedule visiting speakers over the summer as the main preaching pastor takes a month or two off.
Sheila Wray Gregoire would be an excellent choice. Her website has a tab for booking her as a speaker. http://sheilawraygregoire.com/booking/
Her website gives many examples of her presentations. Excellent.
dee,
PLEASE CHECK YOUR EMAIL. (Pardon the shouty caps.) I got some help to figure out how to report this.
The formal term for this is ONE TRUE WAY-ISM.
And the Universe cannot have two centers. Or two One True Ways.
“DIE, HERETIC!!!!!!!!!!!”
With an additional feature of blame-shift gaslighting:
“WHAT’S YOUR PROBLEM? CAN’T YOU TAKE A JOKE?!?!?”
Right here!
i’m so done with the church. i don’t blame this woman at all for ceasing to believe in God. men like this so-called pastor don’t believe in god either. they use god for their own selfish ends.
Gungor is proof that with a gift of gab, touch of charisma, and a bag of gimmicks anyone in America can have a ministry. A great multitude of pew-sitters are so gullible that they will fall for anything.
His website sells men’s tee shirts that say “Don’t bother me I’m in my nothing box” and women’s tees that say “Be nice to the girl.”
It also sells in-home hormone test kits for $399.00.
Some comedian.
In most job settings, this gentleman would be terminated for sexual harassment. However, apparently, in Stand-up, Church, & the Military, misogyny is a part of the job. It works. Male-dominated fields?
I’ve not served in the military but have been around it since the 1990s. Back then, women could not serve in combat roles. That gradually changed by law. The elite military Honor Guards were almost all white men, because the only way to apply was to start out in the military police. Once that regulation changed, women and minorities started to join the Honor Guard. All the chaplains were men, until some endorsing denominations began sending ordained women. The first African American secretary of defense, Lloyd Austin, is serving right now. Sheila Widnall was the first woman to serve as the secretary of a branch of the service; she was secretary of the Air Force from 1993 to 1997. If you look at the secretaries of the Navy, they did have a woman Secretary—for an entire week, in 2003, and an African American man—for two months in 2009. These are just a few examples.
Change comes slowly. What heartens me is knowing troops who really want our all-volunteer military to represent the population as a whole.
He really is a snake oil salesman! I continue to be amazed at who the American church lets in the door!
I guess we are too rough on Mr. Gungor. I’m sure the early church sold tee shirts like that, too.
I was in a Bible study once where a new fellow in the church attended one night. At one point in the discussion he added “If Jesus was here today, I bet he would be sitting around the campfire drinking beer with the boys.” To which I replied “No sir, He wouldn’t.” We never saw the guy again (some folks just can’t take rebuke and correction).
Max,
I trust your reaction. However, I think the truth about Jesus’ conduct is complicated. Jesus was accused of being a glutton and winebibber (I’m hearing Grandmother’s voice, and she only spoke KJV). By no means do I think Jesus was a slap-happy guy who got drunk with pals and harassed barmaids. I do think he went pretty much everywhere, though, spending time with women and men, and drinking some wine because that was normal.
Friend,
A little more about the fellow in the Bible study. Turned out he was an “antinomian” of Calvinist persuasion and believed that he was released by grace from the obligation of observing the moral law. He went around with one foot in the world and one foot in the church, serving two masters and trying to justify it (not that drinking beer is immoral). I would put him in the same category as Christian comedians 🙂
This one degrades women to elevate himself as a man, teaching other men to do the same and women to “put up with it”. “Just kidding.”
13 Reasons Why People Put Others Down https://www.aconsciousrethink.com/12254/people-who-put-others-down/
1. To make themselves feel better.
2. They are jealous.
3. To make themselves feel important.
4. To make other people like them.
5. To get attention.
6. To feel in control.
7. They are using displacement as a defense mechanism, for example, take their stress, anxiety, or anger from one part of their life and find an outlet for it by knocking others down.
8. To weaken the resolve of another person with a view to manipulating them.
9. They have a negative outlook on life.
10. They have low social and emotional intelligence.
11. They fall foul of stereotypes.
12. They are unwilling to listen to an opposing point of view.
13. They don’t know how to communicate properly so they use mockery and put downs as a means of distraction and to prevent any heartfelt conversations from taking place.
#13 appears to be the case in the interchanges with Ms. Sheila Wray Gregoire.
“Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of mockers.” Psalm 1.1
Max,
Thanks. I figured as much. Grandmother would have taken his glass away. 🙂
As I’ve said before, actors would have no stage if they didn’t have an audience willing to buy tickets to the show. Even bad actors get to stay in the pulpit if they have enough gullible folks in the pew who support them. In my humble (but accurate) opinion, the American church needs to be repenting and weeping over its miserable condition and not laughing at Christian comedians.
Max</strong
Unfortunately, I think you are correct….. TWW time and again reports on “smooth talkers” or “entertainers”…. that do not, in real life, follow their message…. I am not talking about people that fail, and are seek restitution…. come to think of it, as ANY of clowns that have been significantly reported on in TWW repented???
Max,
Which is why you hear it so often, unfortunately.
How can you “repent” when You Can Do No Wrong?
The Zero-Sum Game, where the only way for Me to Win is to Make YOU Lose.
1) WTF is a “nothing box”?
2) Hormone test kits? WHY?
There’s been a few “I’m sorry” and others who cry without tears, even some who confess gross sins to a standing ovation! … but most of the fallen just launch unrepentant comebacks. I haven’t seen a widespread outbreak of sackcloth and ashes in the American church yet (Lord knows there needs to be!).
The same job skills and qualifications as a Con Man/Swindler.
Friend,
Yes.
Very bad pastors, but very good con men, are “scamming” the pew throughout America. IMO, most communities of any size have at least one.
Max,
We would love to hear your thoughts on this guy vs all the Bible verses warning us about scorners.
Was scratching my head over this, too, so went and looked at his website. Basically, it’s to test and make sure your hormones are good, because healthy hormones MUST equal healthy sex life.
Never mind if your spouse is condescending, lazy, immature, or too busy to give you the time of day unless they want something from you… MUST be the HORMONES!
Oh boy, was my assumption wrong!! After I watched a couple of Gungor videos (uhm, a kangaroo?), a automatically thought the hormone test kits were to keep check on the wittle wifies so the hubbies would know when they were really going off the rails!
From what I understand, people just decide to order this kit from a comedian and use it at home, relying on the manufacturer to help them interpret results. I don’t know if people use a color chart, mail dried urine back to the kit’s manufacturer, or what happens.
Go ahead and empower people, sure. But if couples are having trouble in their sex life, they need to see a doctor and/or counselor. I did not find any obvious signs online that this brand of kit is used in conventional medical practices. I did find it favorably mentioned on some woo sites, alternative sites, and Christian sites.
Well, I’m a frequent scorner of pulpit actors, I suppose – often expressing my contempt and disdain for what they have done to the church. Regarding Bible verses about scorners such as myself, I suppose they would need to be balanced with Scripture about watchmen who warn rather than just complain. Sometimes, I might move from watchman to scorner without realizing it … guess I need to be more careful.
… but never the things of God!
Max,
You have a lot of wisdom to share. We never thought of you as a scorner but giving a healthy analysis that comes from years of experience.
What we were thinking about was Proverbs 22:10:
“Drive out a mocker, and conflict will leave. Quarreling and abuse will stop.” (GW)
Some denominations don’t seem to understand this verse and the need to remove a scorner from the pulpit in order to stop the strife that he is causing. They seem to put the blame on everyone else except the scorner himself.
Avid Reader,
I fully agree with you about the meaning of Proverbs 22:10, but too many denoms and congregations use verses as God’s Rules, which can then be turned on anybody.
It’s harder to weaponize 1 Corinthians 13 (the Love Chapter if anyone does not know) and the Sermon on the Mount. If a congregation deeply discussed these, the mockers would pass away from boredom.
Friend,
We need to get to the root of the problem of how church leadership is so quick to blame women when the real problem is that stuff is going wrong because the scorner (male or female) has not been thrown out yet
Ever heard of the Didache? It’s one of the first documents of Church History, dating back to between the first and second centuries AD. And over a third of it is how to spot a con man in the pulpit and what to do about it.
No, but this is interesting.
Wow, just wow. Prescient. From the get-go.
I’m baffled, bamboozled, and incredulous.
I didn’t know whether to laugh, cry, fart, or cuss.
Probably all four, but in what order, still remains a mystery.
How does this guy still stay in business?
Muff, you should be a Christian comedian!
Which only provides more room for more scorners to abuse the pulpit and the pew. Congregations need to learn afresh that they have a responsibility to rebuke, correct and/or remove bad boy leaders.
Nah… I’m happy just to pursue quietly what The Almighty has given me, and to work out my own salvation with fear and trembling.
Don’t forget “Seeking out those with Holy Hand Grenades in their pockets and pulling the pins”.
“TOUCH NOT MINE ANOINTED!” is so useful…
“If you come across a preacher who has titled himself “Prophet” or “Apostle”, RUN!”
No, they aren’t okay. I attended one of his weekend retreats 10-11 years ago, and at that time did not recognize how misogynistic it was. I actually recommended the videos for a Sunday school class at church. The videos are literally filmed at one of his live events. The “Tale of Two Brains” is a key part of the message, as well as the idea that men only marry for sex, and that women should sell their body to their husband in exchange for him doing specific household tasks.
I have seen video of him doing a live seminar for troops.
Thanks for this observation.
Do you remember if this theme was related to the his-n-her tee shirts that say (for men) “Don’t bother me I’m in my Nothing Box” and (for women) “Be nice to the girl”?
According to Gungor, men keep all subjects in their brain in separate boxes that never touch each other. They take out one box at a time to examine, then put away. The “nothing box” represents Gungor’s view that men are able to think about absolutely nothing for long stretches of time.
I just finished explaining the Nothing Box in another comment…
Gungor encourages men to “be nice to the girl” so they get sex. Don’t get me going on the concept of referring to adult women as “girls.” It’s infantalizing.
Reminds me of an interview John Piper had with Matt Chandler a few years ago. At one point in the discussion, Chandler said he preached to men noting that “our girls” don’t have a problem with that. IMO, the “beauty of complementarity” is an ugly thing.
As Jesus told us about Mary “only one thing is necessary, for Mary has chosen the good part, that which is to her advantage, which will not be taken away from her.” (Luke 10:42)
Thanks… I don’t see that comment. Possibly it’s being inspected… I’ll look later. 🙂
I was first introduced to this via facebook and have followed the links here.
I have asked this question on facebook first before coming here and waiting for a response.
Did anyone else besides Gungor report this alleged crime to the police?
Where were her friends, father, mother, older lady in the church who was in the room with Lexi and Gungor, youth pastor, etc. when all this happened?
“Mark says that it’s only (considered) rape if the police press charges.
He also says (at the 5:00 mark) “if it was a major assault he’d be in jail.”This is concerning since few rapes are ever prosecuted. He appears to be woefully uneducated in this area.”
Dee- Sexual assault and rape are not identical in the law. You seem to mixing them up but no penetration was mentioned in anything I have read regarding this situation.
“Does Mark think you can cause someone to assault you?
He definitely seems to think it was Lexi’s fault for making out with the boy. Lexi keeps her cool amazingly well when he’s doing this. Good for her!”
Dee- Lexi made out with the boy.Lexi knows she made out with the boy. As an undeniable fact why would she lose her cool over this statement? It is clear the did not force her to make out. Lexi mentions it in the audio. Lexi believes it is normal behavior to be making out at 17 but believes once you are over 18 making out is predatory behavior.
“Gungor appears to demonstrate little training in the area of church polity. Did he actually get his MDiv? Is he actually stating an abuser can keep attending the church where he allegedly abused a person? Ummm, not unless the church wants him to attend.”
Dee- you should stick with what he actually stated. Your form of “Did Mark really say….”. If he really said it find the quote. If he is as bad as you say it should be very easy to provide what he actually says.
False accusations and allegations in a church setting do not usually pan out. Most importantly bearing false witness is a sin.
“Mark says that legitimate criticism of him counts as being offensive.
Lexi read out her comment that he deleted. She merely tells her story that is probably difficult for him to hear. She said that, as a minor, she went to him about her sexual abuse and he blamed her. He claims that by repeating this on social media that she is attacking him and he has the right to delete her. Any criticism is therefore an attack.”
This is poorly worded. Lexi claims she was sexually abused as a child in her online story. She does not say that Gungor blamed her for that. She went to him as a minor about an alleged sexual assault after talking to several other people and she said that Gungor blamed her for that. Lexi would not listen to Gungor when he repeatedly said that they do no protect abusers at the church and Gungor demonstrated it in when the intern that had CP on his computer was jailed.
As to Gungors communication: I do not know what he usually sounds like or what kind of language he uses. Is it normal for him to talk down to a younger female? Abnormal?
Deleting Critical posts happens on all social media, frequently. I am certain Sheila can confirm this being an avid blogger. Indeed our esteemed Hosts have extremely stern warnings in their rules and do not hesitate to moderate comments.
It is inappropriate to bring it up before communion for sure.
Gungor used to be on the Christian network TBN every so often.
At one point, he had his own show (either on TBN or Day Star) where he gave marital advice.
Many of the Christian jerks discussed on this blog have been on TBN at one time or another.
You can probably search for the name of any Christian jerk you’re wondering about to see if they’ve been on TBN.
Here’s the page to TBN’s streaming service type thing where you can watch some of their shows online
(there is also a search box on their page, where you can look up people or topics):
https://www.tbn.org/watch/videos
Of course, you can find a bunch of videos of Gungor on You Tube.
Clearly every man in the military needs to believe this.
[eyeroll]
from magazine interview Gungor posted on his website:
https://web.archive.org/web/20131020003523/http://www.laughyourway.com/about/media/
“he preaches on Sunday mornings at Celebration Church in Green Bay, Wis. (without taking a salary, thanks to the success of Laugh Your Way). During his sermons, he says, he strives to teach lessons from the Bible with a humorous style. But, he says, he knows it’s not for everyone. ‘Some old guy got mad and said, ‘I don’t think you should be up there acting like a clown’,’ Gungor recalls. ‘I said, ‘I’m not acting’.”
“he also records five hours of television each week for the Mark Gungor Show, which is broadcast online….he often yells his advice at people. ‘I call it the meanest show in Christendom,’ he says with a laugh.”
The congregation is paying heavily for free preaching, even if they don’t realize it.
I wonder if women volunteers are treated that well there?
Jerome,
He doesn’t take a salary? That’s interesting.
On the other hand, I think his formal education may have finished at high school. That may be one of the reasons he thinks it’s wonderful to act like a clown. It sounds like high school to me!
That shows some ignorance on his part. Many, many people doesn’t get prosecuted due to prosecutorial discretion.
I will not prosecute this situation on this blog. You are not the defense attorney for Gungor….or are you? Also I do know the difference.
Believe it or not, ‘ole Max has a sense of humor – yep, I laugh every once in awhile, even in church. But, IMO, Gungor and other “Christian comedians” let their humor get out of control. Paul warned about such folks who jest and talk foolishly, who go through life with frivolity: “The key-note of your conversation should not be nastiness or silliness or flippancy, but a sense of all that we owe to God.” (Ephesians 5:1-5)
But, with the poor spiritual condition of the American church, there is plenty of room for folks like Mr. Gungor to use and abuse humor. The line between going to church and going to the theater is becoming blurred. In church as entertainment, it seems that anything goes these days.
Avid Reader,
“We need to get to the root of the problem of how church leadership is so quick to blame women”
++++++++++++++++++++++++
the obsessive need to be “biblical”, like 4-year-olds’ and 12-year olds’ needy fascination with their body parts.
and the good news of these little gems:
—-“Because you have listened to the voice of your wife…” –Genesis 3
—-“For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.”–I Timothy 2
.
.
but really this says it all:
—-“Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?”
—-“The man said, “The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.”
dee,
The fact remains that Gungor did his part to turn over the alleged perpetrator to the police which I am sure you are in favor for.
Of course. Lexi did not call it rape and I think it is important to be accurate to her own report.
Since you asked, I am not an attorney for anyone. Gungor does not need one for this situation.
It doesn’t matter if she made out with the alleged perp. She declares that she did not give consent. I woman can stop the process at any time.
Are you claiming that all churches function correctly when it comes to what he said/she said?
I guess that you are a friend, passionate follower, or an attorney. I get it. You don’t believe Lexi. Did you know that about 96% of sexual abuse claims are found to be true?
As for bearing false witness, I have been doing this for 12 years. I tend to believe the victims. Do you have any idea how hard it is for a woman to come forward with these claims and then be told she, and those who support her, are bearing false witness? That is what you are accusing her and us of doing. I would never, ever intentionally lie to write a story. However, you appear to be the judge and jury of what constitutes false witness in this post. You are the person who women, men, and children who have been abused are afraid of.
We have not been able to find any evidence of higher education after high school but he’s not talking about that.
dee,
She told the police she did consent (which she cannot do at 16) and then told Gungor she did not consent because she was a minor in the recording. A man or woman can stop the process at any time I agree.
Churches should follow the biblical model of justice laid down in Gods Law (two or three witnesses and penalties for false witnesses). When it comes to any accusation God Word is a high bar to meet. I made no claim as to how churches function when it comes to he said/ she said.
“As for bearing false witness, I have been doing this for 12 years. I tend to believe the victims. Do you have any idea how hard it is for a woman to come forward with these claims and then be told she, and those who support her, are bearing false witness? That is what you are accusing her and us of doing. I would never, ever intentionally lie to write a story. However, you appear to be the judge and jury of what constitutes false witness in this post. You are the person who women, men, and children who have been abused are afraid of.”
I did not say that anyone was bearing false witness here nor did I claim that of Lexi.
That sounds really difficult but that is not what happened in this case by Lexis own admission. I do not see any evidence that anyone claimed she was bearing false witness and I certainly have not claimed such.
I mentioned allegations and accusations because that is what happened. Apologies if that was not clear. I am saying that crimes should be reported to the police and pursued. Where were Lexi supporters though this process? Gungor did report it to the police once he learned of it and none of the others did (as far as we know).
I thought you would agree that allegations and accusations in a church setting do not usually pan out. Do you disagree? I have read here before and it seems very common in any church that attempts discipline of its members.
I do believe Lexi is a victim but not of Gungors negligence or spite. He did not fail to do his duty in reporting the alleged perpetrator. Punishing the alleged perp without evidence is unjust, especially in the church setting.
DEE Responds “Caleb: Did he actually get his MDiv? Is he actually stating an abuser can keep attending the church where he allegedly abused a person? Ummm, not unless the church wants him to attend.”
We have not been able to find any evidence of higher education after high school but he’s not talking about that.”
Dee it appears you are still assuming that the alleged perp is an abuser and should be kept from the church or even excommunicated. Or are you stating it generally? If the church does not see a problem with him attending what can you or anyone do? Are you all going to write to the church and correct them about it? Excommunication is vested in the body of a church not the leadership so maybe more people at the church need to be convinced.
Is Gungor a pastor first or a comedian first? Would he even be in Christian ministry without the comedy gimmick?
Can you believe this was my pastor before Pastor Pat? We were at his Appleton campus where his son-in-law was the campus pastor. We got a lot of “marriage counseling” from the son-in-law. I will say that at least he told me I didn’t have to have sex with my husband if I didn’t want to.
Ugh, I sure know how to pick em’!
I could see it if his answer to Lexi were something like, “Well, this person is repentant, and he wants to change from what he was, and he wants to keep coming to church because Jesus Christ is an example in his life and he is trying to become more like Him. We don’t want to excommunicate a person like that, so that is why we have the abuser come to the 9 am service and the abused to the 10:30 so they don’t have to see each other.”
I think he’d have a point with that.
But nothing in there sounds anything like that, now, does it?
I used to work in Green Bay, and I drove past this church once or twice. I never heard of this pastor before. I was in the military in the 90s, and my then immature, self centered husband would have soaked up anything this guy said. Probably would now, but we have been divorced for years so don’t know, but ex comes from this kind of christian mentality. I read Sheila’s online stuff, and I might get her book for a friend going through this kind of stuff. Sad to think this guy thinks sexist comedy is Christian. I can’t stand sexist secular stand up comedy, and I couldn’t tolerate some pastor doing this and calling it Christian.
Pretty amazing. The guy sure doesn’t sound educated in anything at all. Just amazing that a church would put this person in the pulpit once, let alone over and over every week.
One of my friends was a DmV, a large animal Vet for horses until she hurt her back, then taught epidemiology at N C State, then had a call and went to Seminary where she learned Hebrew, Latin, Aramaic, to read historic and holy works in the original languages. There is a person with education.
This guy not so much. I bet he can’t spell the name of all of those languages without a cheat sheet!
Welcome to church as entertainment, in which much of the American church fits. Instead of going to church each Sunday, millions are going to a theater … where pastors are actors and folks in the pew applaud their unrighteousness … where the whole bunch are doing church without God.
It’s working for him!
It’s not difficult to find enough immature, self-centered folks in America to populate wayward churches in the Christian Industrial Complex. This one is laughing its way each Sunday right out of the Kingdom of God.
I dare say that everyone reading this blog have picked some bad ones, Julie. The problem with deception is that you don’t know you are deceived because you are deceived. So we repent, remember what we learned, and move on.
“WELCOME BACK MY FRIENDS
TO THE SHOW THAT NEVER ENDS!
WE’RE SO GLAD YOU COULD ATTEND!
COME INSIDE! COME INSIDE!”
— Emerson Lake & Palmer, “Karn Evil Nine: First Impression”