DYING STAR HD 44179, THE “RED RECTANGLE,” SCULPTS RUNGS OF GAS AND DUST-HUBBLE
“History never really says goodbye. History says, ‘See you later.” Eduardo Galeano
Russell Moore resigns from the ERLC and becomes a “public theologian” for Christianity Today
When I first started this blog, I remember writing a post in which Russell Moore, then Dean of the School of Theology at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, said the word “complementarian” was too soft and he preferred the word “patriarchy.” He was supportive of CJ Mahaney’s Sovereign Grace Ministries and was supportive of the Council of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood. TWW wrote about it here.
After joining the ERLC, he then ran into trouble with the Executive Committee when he became a vocal critic of Donald Trump and continues his position on the matter. This position caused some blowback in the SBC with some churches withholding their giving to the denomination. According to The Hill in Southern Baptist official who criticized Trump resigns:
As The Wall Street Journal reported, Moore garnered widespread attention in 2016 when he came out against Trump’s candidacy. Moore lambasted Trump as being unfit for office and criticized evangelicals who supported him.
Many Southern Baptist pastors withdrew their funding from the SBC in protest of Moore’s criticisms, leading to Moore apologizing “for failing to distinguish” between those who voted for Trump and “those who put politics” over the Gospel, the Journal reports. The outlet notes that in February of this year some churches were found to still be withholding donations.
Could it be that this move reflects a division in the SBC? According to Baptist News Global: Russell Moore leaves ERLC for Christianity Today, highlighting the new schism within SBC. Here is an example.
Nathaniel Jolly, a Southern Baptist pastor in Homer, Alaska, tweeted: “I’m not about to apologize or pretend that I’m not thrilled Russell Moore is leaving the ERLC. My preference is always that leaders return to clear biblical thinking. That is the best and most desired outcome, but if not, I will throw a party when they leave.”
According to Baptist News Global, there might be a reason that he left before the SBC Convention.
Moore’s departure before the SBC’s annual meeting in Nashville this June could temporarily defuse one of the hottest debates that might have happened there. The most conservative wing of the SBC, led by a group called the Conservative Baptist Network, has sought Moore’s removal.
His perceived offenses? Speaking out against Donald Trump as morally unfit to serve as president. And being an advocate for immigration and interdenominational cooperation. And failing to join California pastor John MacArthur (who is not a Southern Baptist) in being outraged that state and local governments required churches to stop meeting indoors and in-person to stop the spread of COVID-19.
When the ERLC trustees refused to remove Moore — whose conservative evangelical bona fides on issues like abortion and biblical authority are otherwise impeccable — the SBC Executive Committee stepped in to conduct its own investigation. That unusual action outraged ERLC trustees and Moore’s supporters.
It got rather nasty.
At the time the special task force was created in February 2020, Stone served as chairman of the SBC Executive Committee. He also named himself chair of the investigative task force, which carefully skirted the normal governance hierarchy of SBC agencies by making its work about Cooperative Program giving.
At the time, Stone said: “The ERLC is governed by their board of trustees. This is not a governance issue. This is a budget issue related to their fulfillment of their mission and ministry assignment. We continue to hear reports that are largely anecdotal but increasing in number where churches are either decreasing or withholding Cooperative Program funds related to concerns with the ERLC. We have a responsibility that we are granted under the bylaws of the SBC to look at this.”
George Soros is involved???
When the report came back in February 2021, however, it outlined a litany of complaints about Moore and the ERLC. The report listed 10 areas of concern about the ERLC’s work, topped by “the open opposition of a candidate for president of the United States.”
Second on the 10-point list was this: “The accusation of receiving funding from an organization with ties to George Soros.”
That is a previously debunked conspiracy theory likely originating out of the QAnon movement that claimed the ERLC was part of an immigrant advocacy group funded by Soros, a favorite boogeyman of the far right and conspiracy theorists.
Here are some questions.
- Was he forced out?
- Did he just get tired of the game?
- Has the SBC needlessly jumped into politics?
- Was the political conflict necessary?
- Does George Soros run the SBC or is it the guy from Pizzagate? (PS I will not allow ANY discussion of PIzzagate at TWW.)
- Is Moore still into patriarchy?
- Did he ever really believe patriarchy or was it expedient at the time?
- Who is the real Russell Moore?
So who on the Executive Committee will judge the three required essays from “citizen journalists,” aka bloggers, as well as late applying, credentialed press?
Let me make this clear…I am not attending the SBC Convention. I have never attended a Convention but I did attend a protest outside of the Convention a few years ago. I have long left the SBC and have no intention of returning. My former church helped take care of that decision!
Have you seen the media guidelines and media registration requirements for the SBC Convention? Here they are in all their glory! Let’s look at a few requirements.
If one registers late, one must present *work samples.*So who will judge if these work samples indicate if the credentialed members of the press should be admitted? Do they have an Office for the Evaluation of Written Work Samples?
Review and processing of applications and credentials may take up to 14 days. Members of the press and established media are encouraged to apply before June 1, 2021. Those who submit application forms and/or request credentials on or after June 2, 2021 should be prepared to 1) present identification and work samples upon registration and 2) experience longer wait times.
The Executive Committee gets to judge those who have “ulterior motives” or *malicious intent* in applying for press credentials.
One of my pastors used to say “Even on my best days, my motives of mixed.” In other words, mere mortals cannot judge motives, only actions or words. Therefore, the Executive Committee must be considered elevated to godlike status.
Press accreditation will NOT be granted to anyone whose principal purpose in attending this event is, in the judgment of SBC Executive Committee Communications staff, for reasons other than gathering details, interviews, and/or photos for a news report or feature. The SBC Executive Committee Communications staff also reserves the right, at its discretion, to reject the application of anyone who, in their judgement, may be attending the event under false pretenses or with ulterior motives or malicious intent.
Bloggers and other “citizen journalists” must be reputable!
This reputability will be judge by the Executive Committee. Is this the same group that investigated Russell Moore as posted above? You know, the ones that were concerned about the involvement of George Soros? If I can prove that George Soros never gave me any money, will the Executive Committee consider me reputable? However, if Soros would like to throw lots of money in my direction, I would be happy to be considered disreputable.
Bloggers or other citizen journalists must represent established, legitimate, SBC-related or reputable outlets as determined by SBC Executive Committee Communications staff.
Bloggers and others must provide work samples to be judged by “media relations.”
This is one that I’d like to see. Harriet and Fred, who probably got their positions because they were related to someone in the SBC, get to judge the content and writing of submitted work samples of well-known bloggers, etc. 🙂 Can you imagine the ones I could submit?
Bloggers and other citizen journalists who lack formal press credentials must provide work samples of their news coverage of Southern Baptist Convention to mediarelations@sbc.net no later than June 11, 2021.
I guess that The Gospel Coalition bloggers, the writers for 9Marx and Acts29 will get a free pass- no materials needed. Who else gets in without needing to submit “work samples?” Who else knew that Russell Moore supports the patriarchy? Maybe that means I don’t get in.
1
Russell Moore is a chameleon. He was an aide to a U. S. representative (a democrat at the time) before he went to seminary school.
As far as the SBC ……… it’s on the right track to becoming the biggest cult in world history!
I’ve said it here before, and pardon me as I say it again. In defining Fundamentalism, I cam see the fun, and I can see the damn, but I’ll be damned if I can see the mental. In other words, there is no rhyme or reason to the actions of the SBC except to maintain the power of the powerful. “Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.” – Lord Acton.
Finally, I do have to offer a “pizzagate” comment. Last Friday, the pizza driver left my pepperoni/sausage/Canadian bacon at the “gate” (my front door) and forgot to ring the doorbell. I only found the pizza when I heard noise outside the door. When I opened it, I witnessed a German Shepherd enjoying my pizza.
I had a ham sandwich instead . . .
Nancy2, could you expand on that? Why does that make Russell Moore a chameleon? I assume he was quite young at the time, and people change. I find him fairly consistent.
I won’t question you on your SBC comment. 🙂
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
Ya think!!
They are screening the press for cryin out loud. So it’s not really ‘the press’ that will be there It’s the fan boys writing only what’s favorable to the SBC. Sounds like someone else we know . . . no criticism allowed. What a giant joke.
Moore jumped to avoid the axe at the upcoming SBC annual meeting in June. It will be interesting to see who Mohler puts in his place at ERLC – yes, Mohler is really behind all key SBC appointments, not SBC members or entity boards. When Mohler is declared SBC President in June, it will send a signal throughout the SBC that Calvinization of a once-great whosoever-will-may-come evangelistic denomination is complete.
“Who is the real Russell Moore?”
We will never know. These guys are chameleons.
“Bloggers and other “citizen journalists” must be reputable! This reputability will be judge by the Executive Committee.”
HA! The reputability of the Executive Committee itself has been questionable for years! It seems that there is always a hidden agenda.
You ask “Who is the real Russell Moore?” I ask “Who is the real Ronnie Floyd?” (President, SBC Executive Committee)
“I guess that The Gospel Coalition bloggers, the writers for 9Marx and Acts29 will get a free pass- no materials needed.”
Whew! I read their “work samples” all the time. Their writers are operatives of the New Calvinist movement that has wrenched the SBC away from millions of non-Calvinist members by stealth and deception. Reputable?!!
True story. A very old couple was visiting their daughter in a nearby city. While the daughter was out at work, the old couple went to a museum for the day. When they came out, there was snow everywhere, no buses, no cabs, nothing. They could not reach their daughter, and did not have a cell phone.
The couple started to walk toward their daughter’s home, but it was a good five miles away and starting to get dark. They trudged along, hoping to spot a cab.
Then the old man saw a building with lights on, and his face lit up. He and his wife walked into the pizza parlor and ordered a pie for delivery, giving the daughter’s address. The guy behind the counter said, “Thanks. Will there be anything else?”
The man asked, “Will you please deliver us with the pizza?”
🙂
Who owns the SBC? As a church org, the SBC is kept in place by $$$. Whose money?
Is CT a self-sustaining non-profit business or do they rely on donations? Who is their constituency or supporter(s)? … their various subscribers or is there, for example, a Koch bro?
(Who owns Moore?)
Does our former Dear Leader own, for example, the LU guy, via kompromat, like photos? Graham? Is that still going on?
A church can rally voters. A pol can allocate $$$ & legislate on behalf of churches. A business can donate. LE & the DOJ, as in “Spotlight”, can protect all sorts of stuff going on.
Follow the money. Measure the Rule of Law & Common Good of any org., which is how the Boston Globe uncovered a network of evil amongst pols, clergy, LE, & Biz in their city.
Rule of Law & Common Good include how every woman & child are treated.
Jesus spent a lot of time with women, children, the sick, & the disabled. The Rule of Law & the Common Good protect & address the needs of the vulnerable, like Jesus did. The other group of Jesus’ focus was the working people. Not to scam them or collect $$$ from them, but to address their basic needs.
Al Mohler.
Before he joined ERLC, Moore was Mohler’s right-hand man at Southern Seminary.
But neither would have SBC jobs if it weren’t for funds coming from 47,000 SBC-member churches through the Cooperative Program. Hard-earned dollars coming from millions of uninformed non-Calvinist pew-sitters helped the new reformers Calvinize their denomination … the pew ain’t got a clue.
Friend,
Brilliant!
Max, Mohler and Moore are not on speaking terms, as far as I can tell.
Moore stopped talking about the patriarchy when he thought he could out-flank Mohler and hitch his ride to Beth Moore and JD Greear.
A.Baptist,
Could you give me a bit more information? Your comment was interesting.
Luckyforward,
LOL!!
Ted,
I can see what she is saying. He worked for a liberal. Then he worked for a conservative at SBTS and adopted patriarchal talking points.The guy admired Mahaney! He had adopted a more liberal stance in politics once again. Now he’s off to CT as a “public theologian” whatever in the world that is.There is some changing of colors.
Max,
But they wll get into the conference hall.
We’ve been here before Max, and we’ve agreed that so long as the pot-lucks and the social calendars go on as they always have, the pew serfs don’t give a rat’s a$$ who the high mucky-mucks are or what they believe.
Ted,
Dee said it well – better than I could have.
The ERLC is the political arm of the SBC, and Moore has really tried to straddle the fence between being an ultra conservative Baptist and a liberal political supporter for quite some time.
There was at least one other group that Jesus did focus on quite a bit. However, He did not have kind things to say about them at all.
It was the group of religious leaders.
The Rule Makers and Gate Keepers.
Those who were close to power.
It was that group he did not trust and for whom He reserved his ire and reprimand for.
Muff Potter,
OT: Muff, you have a way with words; LOL, ROFL. Now, if you were to preach from a pulpit, that would be an event!
dee:
Kind of like reading about the politburo, but there’s zero evidence Moore talks to Mohler or seeks his advice. They used to share transactional pleasantries, but today, the 30th anniversary of What About Bob is getting more action in Mohler’s feed. No mention of RM.
Russell found Beth Moore after 2016, and that was the last anyone heard about the patriarchy or calvinism or Al Mohler from him. Suddenly, Beth Moore’s daughter was “a brilliant theological and philosophical mind of top-rank…” and the ERLC was using Beth to care well.
A.Baptist,
$$$.
————
So Beth Moore left SBC & the one who found her after 2016 now follows?
Eek! I’ve been ordering pizzas on for lunch on Monday because it is usually impossible to get away from the calls on Mondays. (You know, roll out an upgrade on Saturday night, the first real stress test of thousands of people using the software in ways intended or not occurs on Monday, and stuff breaks.) I’ve had them leave it out on the patio on a table. I’m going to have to reconsider that, because there is a very nosy stray cat who hangs around and if they’re anything like my cat, they like ham and might destroy my double ham pizza.
As for Russell Moore and ERLC, I think he left because Christianity Today is a bigger bullhorn.
As for the SBC Executive Committee, I can see Robert Downen (of the Houston Chronicle) telling the Committee that why no, he won’t be submitting that paperwork, but he’ll be happy to mention in all his articles how the SBC decided to limit reporting only to those who would submit essays. Or something. Seriously, I can’t see the Chronicle’s editors going for this essay nonsense by any stretch of the imagination.
Just going to point out, as someone who actually has a credential in this area, that most American politics are right of center and trending further right. We do not have a truly “left” party in this country. So when someone starts screeching about liberals, it’s usually about some person who is very much middle of the road in a world political sense, but nowhere near “liberal” or “left,” again, in a world political sense
What I’m trying to say is that Moore is hardly a “liberal” or a “leftist.” I do think he’s a very adaptable chameleon. You’re VERY correct about that and it’s quite an astute observation!
The essay bit seems to be for late registers and people they don’t know. Robert Downen is a known figure so all they have to do is decide whether to let him in or not.
In my experience, that’s pretty much true for the New Calvinist camp in general. They change messages all the time, but that doesn’t mean they believe anything they say. TGC used to write articles all the time about the ends justifying the means.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
Thanks, Nancy2, and also Dee.
Too much flip-flopping would be a problem, I agree. But in the several years that I’ve observed Russell Moore he’s swum against the SBC current while maintaining conservative Christian beliefs. I’ve been doing the same in my ABC church, which has caught the current and is moving into the SBC stream. Though I’m conservative theologically (and perhaps more so than those caught in the current—I think they’ve arrived at “another gospel”) I tend to be liberal politically, and I don’t see a conflict in that. Others do however.
While one is on a board or in any position of authority, everything is political. You have to pick your battles, and present a unified front. When I was on the diaconate at First Baptist my dissent had to be within the board, or to the pastor. Before the church body we couldn’t appear divided, and thankfully in those days there wasn’t such division. Things heated up after I got off the diaconate and my successor started pushing things. I was able to be more outspoken, not less, while off the board, because now it was a church matter, not merely an internal matter. There’s a freedom in that, but perhaps with less influence.
While on the ERLC of SBC, Moore did need to toe a certain line, politically and practically. But he did speak out against certain practices, to their ire. Now he no longer has to toe any line, and I’ll need to make popcorn and renew my subscription to Christianity Today. He will have zero influence within the SBC, but it’ll be interesting to see where else his influence impacts.
Friend,
🙂
I checked the council page at The Gospel Coalition’s website this morning. It features smiling photos of Albert Mohler and Russell Moore side-by-side. Are they as much at odds as some other commenters believe? I guess we’ll soon find out, especially if Mohler wins the SBC presidency. Mohler has three opponents if I recall correctly.
Should Mohler win, I’m not sure I’d be ready to label the entire SBC as a cult. There are still some reasonable Baptists in the SBC, at least for now. However, I wouldn’t be surprised if a Mohler victory accelerates the SBC’s shrinkage to a rate approaching that of the liberal mainline Protestant denominations.
@RobDownenChron: Known figure with a database. Interesting to see this play out. If he’s there; how he covers the event. How the org treats/covers him.
CT has chameleon qualities, like RM. IOW, as Media, it has a much broader base, thus seeking a broader appeal for business’ sake. $$$. Threading the needle: “Christianity” Today. What does that mean? Maybe aptly named since things can change daily. Relevance.
Oh yeah. TGC, A29, & 9Marx sit on top the SBC hill these days. And the strange thing is, most Southern Baptists never heard of them! The pew ain’t got a clue as they continue to bankroll SBC Calvinization.
From my 70+ year snapshot as a Southern Baptist, I can confirm that the average Southern Baptist doesn’t give a big whoop about things like theology or what goes on among the SBC elite … but if you try to take away their chicken dinners, you will have a war on your hands! The denomination was easy pickins’ for the New Calvinist movement.
In a sense, that’s concerning. The reasonable Baptists might be funding the SBC, and lending it their good names and reputations, while not working furiously to save it from its substantial problems.
I can empathize…. 🙂
(I’ve worked in IT and I’ve worked as a computer programmer….)
Potlucks and chicken dinners. Men’s Group BBQ & networking event. Ladies’ Christmas Tea, Spring Garden Show. Calendars are full.
An interesting development if that is the case. The New Calvinist elite stick together like glue … unless one of the potatoes gets too hot to handle. Mohler treated Moore like his son. I do know that SBC’s Founders Ministries of “Old” Calvinists (Tom Ascol et al.) are not too fond of Moore since he has waffled on his patriarchy views … and Mohler leans more “Old” than “New” Calvinist in his heart of hearts, IMO. I see a clash coming between Old and New Calvinism within SBC in the years ahead as both groups vie for leadership. The old boys have put up with the NeoCals to date since they both had a common purpose: to Calvinize the SBC. Now that the mission is largely complete, who will be King of the Mountain? (definitely not King Jesus)
Oh that’s the perfect job for him! He can talk the bones off a chicken as he engages the “public” with “theology.”
“Public theology is the Christian engagement and dialogue within the church and especially with the larger society. It seeks the welfare of the state and a fair society for all by engaging issues of common interest to build the common good. This is Christian theology that talks with society not just to society.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_theology#:~:text=Public%20theology%20is%20the%20Christian,society%20not%20just%20to%20society.
What matters.
In any case, an org is only as good as those at the helm. Example: RZ.
Participants and followers beware.
Was the mob [individually] responsible for choosing Barabbas over Jesus?
What matters. At the Golden Calf: Choose ye this day …
Whew! It’s getting increasingly difficult to sort out the good guys from the bad guys within SBC. So I just put them all in the bad guy bucket until enough evidence convicts them of being good. In the meantime, I retreat to Scripture “There is none righteous, no, not one.”
Max,
What’s in it for CT? More subscribers? RM, “public theologian”, bring$ a following?
Does Beth Moore, another SBC defector, have a CT column?
Therein lies the SBC dilemma. As someone said “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”
How does the track record of CT compare with SBC in dealing with the testimonies of, for example, Jules Woodson, Christa Brown, Anne Marie Miller?
How do these two orgs compare in their assessment & coverage of the 700+ public records of documented clergy predators in the database of @RobDownenChron?
When evidence lights the room …
For donors who don’t care about minors but count every penny, where there’s misuse or abuse of minors, there’s the same with $$$. Note: the Berean Baptist guy who violated girls as a youth pastor was misusing the church credit card (personal expenses). All of the pols who are being indicted for violating minors ALSO misuse taxpayers’ money. Rule of Law & Common Good is a consistent lifestyle, or NOT. Above the law is NO Good.
Trust someone with your money but not with your daughter? Sick.
Not difficult for Rob Downen at the Houston Chronicle. Does CT do this type of coverage, as that is RM’s new gig? Definitely in their wheelhouse, media coverage of Christianity & church & such.
This was just posted:
@RobDownenChron 2m
“When confronted at a meeting at Riverview Baptist Church, Graves allegedly said that he had ‘a monster inside him that comes out when he is tired or when he drinks.’” #SBCtoo #ChurchToo
Downen at the Houston Chronicle, a secular media outlet, did the work of creating a clergy predator database, a public service. Does Christianity Today have a database of church predators? If not, why? This is precisely in their wheelhouse. Does Christianity Today promote “both sides are upright” with predators and those violated?
More like “Moore” subscribers. RM has a loyal following of folks expecting him to engage the culture with religion in his new capacity at CT as “public theologian”. Without the SBC chains, he will now be free to speak his mind (whatever is in it). I’m sure he will articulately weave his way through the maze to write about the interaction of culture and church. At one time, the church used to be counter-culture to the world.
Now, it is largely a sub-culture of it. The pearl of great price is hidden in a field.
A.Baptist,
I didn’t know that about his relationship to Mohler but it makes sense. Thank you for helping me understand this.
Ava Aaronson,
Interesting.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
It’s also been quite hot in your area. We are going to be 25 degrees hotter in Raleigh. Heading to the high 90s. The weather has been weird this year. A week ago, it was 57 degrees which is 20 degrees cooler.,
Oh that’s just great! Sooooo … let’s make him a youth leader!! You would think someone in that small community would have known that Graves drinks and turns into a monster on occasion. I suppose he came across as a nice guy to the church folks when he wasn’t a drunk monster. Obviously, no discernment at Riverview Baptist Church … there’s a pandemic of spiritual ignorance in the American church.
Erp,
I wonder how they would like my posts on Jules, especially since the Executive Committee has refused to consider her concerns about Steve Bradley!!!It would be funny to watch their reactions.
You’re over-spiritualizing again.
Not “spiritual ignorance” – Arrogance and Egotism.
dee,
Frankly, RM moving from SBC to CT seems like same old, same old. Blather. Ho-hum. Nothing to see here. Paycheck from one place, moved to another. Keep the house, the cabin, the yacht.
However, if CT hired @wartwatch Dee to run an @wartwatch column, that would be interesting. Seriously. Effective. Something said, something read. Yes. Notable. News. Real news we can use. Christianity. Today. For real. Public theologian. Dee has the chops, no question, at all levels. Theological & practical, where lives & innocence matters.
“Public Theologian”?
Does that mean he gets to bloviate in Christianese with his mug ten meters tall on all Telecreens?
WHO would be interested except other “Theologians” who agree 1000% with him?
Naked Pastor used to have a one-panel cartoon called “The Theologians”. It was two fat/well-fed white figures intently studying a huge Bible, surrounded by starving Africans dying in misery.
And in Eric Flint’s time-travel SF series (commonly called “1632” after its first volume), there was a short story collection called “Grantville Gazette”. The actual story was “Hobson’s Choice”, about some Downtime Englishmen, one of who (perusing Uptime publications) read about an Uptime “crop failure” whose yield per acre was more than their downtime bumper crops. Said Downtimers were unable to get any of their Betters interested in this, because said Betters were too busy arguing/fighting over the THEOLOGICAL Ramifications of the appearance of the Uptimers – how their appearance proved or disproved Soteriology, Predestinaton, Calvin, Arminius, everything Theological. (At the end, the unsuccessful Downtimers decide to travel to the Uptimers on their own and learn about how they were able to do such “worldly” miracles compared to their Way It’s Always Been.
Atop Lenin’s Tomb during the May Day Parade?
And now He’s been reduced to SMITE! SMITE! SMITE! PUNISH! PUNISH! PUNISH! as Anointed Pastor/Apostle’s Enforcer. Enforcing the perks and Privileges of Rank of the rich Religious Leader Caste.
That’s probably why Jesus didn’t mention anything about theologians when He spoke of the Great Commission. He doesn’t care about theology if it doesn’t minister to lost and hurting folks.
I can’t say I blame the SBC for putting up roadblocks to their convention. They certainly do have a right to let in whomever they want. I wouldn’t want a lot of criticism either, especially when I know it is inevitably coming from people whom I already know don’t like me and have no respect for me.
Not to pick on you specifically, but you raise an interesting point.
Sometimes I wonder if the need to present “a unified front” is unintentionally contributing to the problem. Coming to a decision that everyone ultimately supports (to varying levels) is one thing. But pretending that all the people in the group are of like mind and 100% support the decision and have zero disagreement during the process seems to be what “a unified front” is coming to mean.
This is fresh in my mind because a very conflict-averse family member had it totally backfire in their faces recently and instead ended up creating a mega conflict where there needn’t have been one if they’d been open about their disagreement a lot earlier in the decision-making process.
What would happen if, similar to parents modeling good conflict-resolution skills for their children instead of pretending “everything is awesome” and hiding every disagreement behind closed doors, church boards and committees did the same thing for their congregations? Messier in the short-term, but builds stronger relationships in the long-term.
I am probably oversimplifying things, but you get the general idea.
SarahM,
Then they shouldn’t refer to the journalists as “the press.” These journalists should be called “the fanboys report.” It’s not real press.
I think it’s also just too much to expect. There will be people who disagree, loudly. Just because you are trying to present a “unifed front” doesn’t mean everyone else will.
And what if the decision is something you sincerely and strongly disagree with? If I was still a Baptist and another faker pastor came along to take over another church I was in, and everybody was acting like he was a fine guy, I would speak up, no matter the consequences. Maybe nobody knows enough about that movement to know how they act? Maybe people are unaware there is a division in the beliefs of the convention to start with?
Because I’ve seen, firsthand, what the results are of that kind of decision. The members no longer having a say in church decisions. The entire staff getting fired and the pastor putting in his friends to be his yes-men elders. Telling everyone the new covenant is retroactive and nobody is allowed to leave the church of their own free will anymore and that everyone’s attendance in all activities will be counted and measured.
There might be issues where everyone should work together, but I believe there’s definitely times you need to stand up and publicly speak against something, even if you are the only one.
As an aside, interesting Al Mohler article I saw today:
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/rolltodisbelieve/2021/05/19/back-when-al-mohler-supported-women-pastors/
Max,
I love Southern fried chicken, seriously, as much as I love an old-fashioned Door County (Wisconsin) fish boil.
Besides telling someone what they want to hear, Christians are to “correct, rebuke and encourage — with great patience and careful instruction” (2 Timothy 4:2). There are actually reputable voices in media and social media who attempt to do just that by telling it like it is (e.g., TWW). Only letting biased folks in the door who love and adore you – even if you are wrong about some things – is never a healthy thing, particularly in religious circles. SBC has a lot of bad apples in the basket right now that need to be dealt with before the whole denomination rots.
But do you love fried chicken more than Jesus? I know Southern Baptists who act like they do.
In case you were not aware, this is the practice of authoritarian and totalitarian states everywhere. They call it reporting, but it is the narrowest propaganda.
Please note, this is not a slippery-slope argument. When you announce a major event, and cherry-pick trusted reporters in advance, the result will not be news. It will be thinly veiled press releases.
I would like to think the SBC is trying to avoid ambush interviews by the likes of provocateurs Jared Longshore and Tom Ascol. My hunch, though, is that they don’t want trained professional journalists walking around.
Yeah, Al Mohler once had an “egalitarian impulse” and “internal conflict” that he had to repent of:
“I would reject the notion that the position on women that I articulate is wanting Scriptural support. Indeed, I was driven there in terms of my own internal conflict on this issue. The egalitarian impulse that is found in the larger society and within the church would drive one as much as possible to other conclusions, but Scripturally I came to the place where I could not square that and where a comprehensive presentation and exegesis of the text that deals with this issue drove me to the conclusion that I articulate.” (Al Mohler, Q&A with students after assuming SBTS Presidency, 1993)
Mohler certainly has a way with words, even if he is wrong on a lot of things.
… is just more manipulation, intimidation and domination by the New Calvinists in the denomination they took over by stealth and deception. As you note, “They call it reporting, but it is the narrowest propaganda.”
Bridget,
Max,
S
Max,
That is all very true Max. I couldn’t agree with you more. And I don’t think it is possible to “correct, rebuke and encourage–with great patience and careful instruction” without having a modicum of affection and respect for the object of one’s correction.
We attended a church in a nearby city once to hear a Christian musician on tour. Before the singer took the stage, the pastor preached a mini-sermon containing an exegesis of Scripture that was just dead-wrong. While I was pondering his error in my mind, a man behind me jumped to his feet and shouted “That ain’t right!” At which point, two burly deacons ushered him out the door. The fellow may not have approached that right with the pastor, but I sure appreciated his boldness. (I suppose he was a kindred spirit, because I find myself shouting in an occasional blog comment about New Calvinism “That ain’t right!”)
To me, this kind of action is also shouting WE ARE HIDING SOMETHING! If they had nothing to hide, they wouldn’t care if the press reported on it. If they were doing things that people generally thought was okay, they would want to share it.
Friend,
Understood. But they are a private organization. They are having their own convention. They have a right to cherry pick who they let in. I understand that is frustrating to person’s who want access, but it is their convention and they have a right to control access to it. This is Dee’s blog and she had a right to determine who has access and what topics are allowed and she exercises that right. I think there is much that is wrong in the SBC and it’s leadership. But nobody has a right to have access to their convention just because they want it.
SarahM,
I strongly disagree. They are asking for FAVORABLE COVERAGE. In other words, SLANTED REPORTING. If they truly wanted a private convention, they should shut out the media entirely. But they don’t want privacy. They want admirable descriptions of their whited sepulchre.
Wow! No wonder Jesus instructed us to “…render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s and to God the things that are God’s.” Jesus wanted us to rise up above the ugliness of politics and realize that our citizenship is not of this world. I feel that Russell Moore, Al Mohler, and a host of other ‘religious’ leaders have long-since forgotten that we are ruled by a Good and Righteous King whose Kingdom will never end, regardless of whoever occupies the Oval Office! Instead of these guys jockeying for political sway and influence, they should realize that The Kingdom operates on an entirely different level and from a completely different frame of reference. Love is our overarching theme and that’s how we should behave, and so far, there aren’t any laws against that! See Romans 13 and I Corinthians 13 if you’re still not sure! 🙂
Nope.
Fried chicken can’t resurrect me from the dead and give me an inheritance in Olam Ha-Ba (the world to come), Jesus of Nazareth can.
Love is never the first descriptor that comes to mind to characterize New Calvinists. Arrogance is.
“You walked away from your first love — why? What’s going on with you, anyway? Do you have any idea how far you’ve fallen?” (Rev. 2:4-5)
(been missing you, Root … hope all is OK)
dee,
Sarah Pulliam Bailey hearing the same things about reclusiveness, it seems, in her article today:
“Three people, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to avoid jeopardizing their jobs, said Russell Moore was ultimately not a good political insider within the SBC and preferred to steer his own ship at the ERLC. One observer who works for a Southern Baptist organization said he did not connect well with grass-roots Baptists. … Brent Leatherwood, a spokesman for the ERLC, said Moore was unavailable for comment because he was out of the office for the rest of the week.”
Imagine launching a new venture, and disappearing for the media rush. “You will be lucky to get this man to work for you.”
Same here in the north with SBC-leaning ABC-ers! During the scuffle about moving toward all-male revue of elders several years ago, I mentioned that very thing in one of the informational meetings, commenting that “most people only want to know will we still start at 10:30 and end around noon?” I was met with general agreement.
The movement at First Baptist waned for a bit, then came the retirement of the pastor, then Covid, then the quitting of the replacement pastor. The current interim pastor, who grew up in the church and had been youth pastor years back, is revisiting the elder thing. But he is neither theological inclined nor interested in church history. In fact, my wife reported a few weeks ago that he didn’t know who Al Mohler is! But, he and others are getting their inspiration from 9Marks, Council for Biblical Manhood & Womanhood, Lifeway Publications, and encouragement from allies in other churches that have already gone 9Marks. A lot of this is through osmosis, without really studying it.
I resort to Romans 3:4, “Let God be true though every man be false.”
Exactly! Pretending they are open to the press when they really want the fanboy report.
I agree. Unity for the sake of unity is destructive. The Republican Party is disintegrating over it.
When it’s a reasonable disagreement among friends, we can afford to disagree at the board meeting and keep quiet in the congregation because after all, sometimes the other side may be right. While I was on the diaconate we were only in early phases, reading the 9Marks book, without really discussing an overhaul of the by-laws. The main concerns back then were the 2012 election and whether to get political in the pulpit under the instigation of “Alliance Defending Freedom” (I believe I talked the pastor out of it, and I WOULD have taken a sabbatical from FBC had he gone through with it); and whether to un-host the local Boy Scout chapter because the Maine division was about to allow homosexuality. The male-elder tussle came after I termed out, and my successor on the board became chairman and kept pushing for the change. Ironically, he had worked for me 25 years earlier, and we had scuffled over church matters back then. He was no different as a 50-year-old than he was when he was 25.
I agree completely. And it would have come to that, but in the early days it’s hard to smell the rot. So we wait and see. I did speak up, along with others, and that stalled a by-laws change for a few years. I’ve since faded away from that church, as have others, but my wife still goes there and I get my info from her. The elder movement has surfaced again.
I am very grateful for The Wartburg Watch. Thanks, Deebs and everyone.
Is Christ divided? Was fried chicken crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Colonel Sanders? (1 Corinthians 1:13,my paraphrase)
No, that’s the exact text in the KFC translation as well as the New KFC.
… have a subtle reformed slant now, particularly Sunday School literature.
That’s the case with most young New Calvinists. They rely on groupthink and social media platforms (Piper Points, Mohler Moments, Dever Drivel, etc). Indeed, there would be no New Calvinist movement without cyberspace.
Neither does Mohler, but mainline Southern Baptists (which are still primarily non-Calvinist) are letting Dr. Al run the denomination behind the scenes. The grass-roots are too trusting of their leaders and the weeds are choking out the grass. A once-great soul-winning denomination is no more.
Praise, Adoration, and brown-nosed Flattery.
It’s amazing how this parallels the rise of the internet. The Protestant Reformation in early 16th century would not likely have gone far without the printing press and the rise of mass media.
Both a blessing and a curse.
Ironic, given how much they complain about social media and bloggers.
http://thewartburgwatch.com as well as the other blog-watchers.
Oh, they are very much in the camp of “not for thee, but for me”. And their hypocrisy is so blindingly obvious, but their followers eat it up. They don’t try to hide it at all. It was something that always puzzled me about that movement. I had friends and acquaintances that would spout this stuff like it was direct from God’s mouth.
We’re OK, thanks! I haven’t posted in a while because I just shake my head in dismay at the bone-headed decisions being made by the SBC. They are fast becoming more of a lobbying group than a denomination! Dee will probably have to put all future comments about the SBC into moderation, as the SBC continues to blur the line between church and politics!
On a lighter note: As a Baptist from way back, I happen to love Jesus AND fried chicken! They needn’t be mutually exclusive. I KNOW one will be in heaven, but BOTH would make it even better!
My Tennessee-born mom whipped up about the best fried chicken you ever tasted. She’s been with the Lord now for over 25 years, and I often tease that she fries up a skillet of chicken for Him every once in a while!
Friend,
Isn’t that what we all want? Don’t all of us want to be looked on favorably? That desire isn’t what bothers me. And limiting access doesn’t bother me as. What really DOES bother me is the pretense of a process for possibly letting in latecomers and bloggers, which makes the SBC look fair and good, when there is no true intention to let them in. That in my opinion is deceptive and it is the deception that makes it wrong.
Deception is modus operandi of the New Calvinists who now control the SBC.
I resemble that remark! I have fond memories of Southern Baptist fellowship dinners where the church ladies brought in their favorite dishes, sort of a church competition. That’s why so many Baptists are overweight :-). There was a day in SBC life when genuine fellowship in Christ flowed, even in those dinners. Things have changed so much now. Heck, the new bunch in control don’t even talk about Jesus much.
They only complain about those they can’t control. Otherwise, they rejoice in the tool that brought segments of Christendom in America under their control. The new reformers jump out of bed each morning to Google the latest Piper Point, Mohler Moment and Dever Drivel. They tweet and retweet theological error across the airwaves.
Max,
Who is Moore?
Who is Floyd?
Who cares?
This new reformed bunch wouldn’t even HAVE a fellowship dinner for fear that it ‘might distract from their gospel (little ‘g’!)
Many times, I learned more about Jesus during the precious koinonia moments like those, rather than by hearing some dry, heartless, expositional ‘sermon’! Seems to me that the early church broke bread together too, and grew because of it!
Yep, guilty as charged! LOL
One “lead pastor” in my area removed U.S., State & Christian flags from the podium because he believed they were a distraction from his delivery of the gospel (little ‘g’). He also stopped the long-standing church tradition (in the church he took over) of recognizing veterans on Memorial Day & Veterans Day, indicating that it wasn’t God-honoring (as if taking over a church by stealth and deception is God-honoring!).
To stay on blog topic, perhaps Mr. Moore can write about such things in his new job as “public theologian.”
Fellowship dinners do NOT advance the Ideological Agenda.
Purity of Ideology, Comrades,
Purity of Ideology.
And kicked off a century of genocidal Holy Wars throughout Europe.
Maybe I’m just naïve and simple-minded, but I’m fairly certain that Jesus encouraged ALL believers to be “public theologians”…and even more so with our lives than with our words! 🙂
From a guy whose background is actually IN some exotic fandoms:
THE NOUN “FANBOY” IS OFTEN ACCOMPANIED BY THE ADJECTIVE “GUSHING” OR “DROOLING”.
Agreed, but try to get a theologian not to open his mouth!
Imagine there’s no countries
It isn’t hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion, too
— John Lennon —
Sigh, I’m one of those dreamers…
In the words of that Rabbi from Tarsus, “transforming himself to appear as an Angel of Light”.
Successful Sociopaths are MASTERS of camouflage.
Nobody except their chosen victims are allowed to see them as they really are.
They answered and said unto him, “Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us?” And they cast him out. – John 9:34
At this point of the thread, I would once again point out there are reasons for the public unity, with a feeling that unity is a fasaud.
It’s because it really is a perpetual Fundamentalist power struggle. It’s the nature of the Evangelical Beast, and has been since the 1940’s.Two Fundamentalist types are fighting for influence and control.
The ecumenical type founded Neo-Evangelicalsm in 1947. Embarrassed
by Fundamentalism, they desire unity at all cost. Unity attained, they seek to lovingly..gently…tenderly..drown their Fundamentalist siblings by the neck in the big hot tub of said unity.
The purist Fundamentalist quietly seethe in the forced unity. Angry they are required to sand down the rough edges of their specific doctrinal focii. What’s the point of the Open Hand / Closed Hand view of doctrine? If you have keep your Hand Open, you lack a fist to hit people. If you co-exist in unity, how does this establish who is approved, or not approved by God? The entire process of justification collapses is some are not Righteous, and others not.
The Purist will always attempt to subvert the Ecumenical.
The founders of Neo-Evangelicalism where Calvinist, but suppressed their public Calvinism to achieve their goals. That is unforgivable to a Purist. Both practice deception.
Here is the 10/1/1947 dedication speech of Neo-Calvinism.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/evangelical-history/70-years-ago-harold-john-ockengas-opening-convocation-address-to-fuller-theological-seminary/%3famp
Nathan Priddis,
typo-
..justification collapses without some Righteous, are others not Righteous..
Root 66,
Yes!!! Without a paycheck for it.
Like a lot of modern-day theologians (aka Pharisees) who wouldn’t know Jesus if He was standing in front of them. They prefer jots and tittles of the law, rather than the Living Christ.
But you didn’t hear the pure Gospel™ from the right people! Only the lead pastor and his favorite elders have the entire Gospel™ truth and that’s why every meeting has two hours of lead pastor preaching with very little other content besides an offering!
It’s right in cult warning sign #10: “The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing “truth” or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.”
“We alone hold truth. We have come into the world for such a time as this to restore the gospel that the church has lost.” (New Calvinism)
The Taliban, Chairman Mao’s Red Guard, the Ayatollah’s students, and HJ graduating into the SS could all say the same. Word for word.
Wasn’t such Clericalism and Priestcraft one of the Reformers’ major beefs against Romish Popery?
Sitting in a park in Paris France
Reading the news and it sure looks bad
They won’t give peace a chance
That was just a dream some of us had.
—Joni Mitchell
Nathan Priddis,
Nathan, thanks for posting that speech by Harold Ockenga. He was one of the founders of Fuller Seminary and, along with Billy Graham, Gordon-Conwell Seminary, one of my camps. Dr. Ockenga, Billy Graham, and Carl Henry were among the neo-evangelicals you’ve mentioned who tried to distinguish evangelicalism from fundamentalism in the late 40s. Among those trying to keep the finger in the dyke and hold the two together included J.I. Packer, who insisted that to be evangelical is to be fundamentalist. Neither Ockenga, Graham nor Henry would disagree with the “Fundamentals of the Faith,” but in a sense did want to promote a more “ecumenical” approach to American Protestantism–although the term “ecumenical” has become tainted since and may now mean “lee-a-brul” to many.
It seems to me that evangelicals and fundamentalists have merged once again, this time with a quasi-calvinist twist, but more importantly a male-elder leadership twist, as if that were the new gospel. I don’t think Ockenga or Packer or any of them would find those doctrines necessary.
I heard Dr. Ockenga speak or preach several times back in the 80s, even met him at a friend’s church. Extremely logical, systematic, orderly, disciplined, persuasive sermons. He was called a “preacher’s preacher” for good reason.
I would not say that he desired unity at all costs, however, quite the opposite. He was very firm in his beliefs, more firm than most fundamentalists, and would not tolerate doctrinal dissent among those in authority. I can imagine what he would say about those in authority today.
Ted,
Though Joni settled for Cali for awhile, she really went home to Alberta.
Long time Joni fan here…
Ted,
Dr Ockenga was the pastor of Park Street Church. He had left for Gordon Conwell by the time I got there. He was replaced by Dr Paul Toms. I’m delight to say my daughter and her fiancee attend that same church where I met my husband!
Some might consider it “liberal” because they have female elders but I think it is the best church h in Boston.
Glad to hear that about Park Street, Dee. It was considered one of the best back in the 80s, by my evangelical friends–largely through Dr Ockenga’s influence. I think I visited with my brother-in-law.
My wife and I were going to a little group called Beverly Christian Fellowship which later morphed into Pilgrim Church on Cabot St in Beverly, a kind of baptist/presbyterian evangelical hybrid. If you’ve been through there you might have seen the 2 signs made from 4×8 plywood, one saying PILGRIM CHURCH and the other JESUS SAVES. But it’s not what you think–not a podunk independent-fundamental-baptist church. There were Gordon-Conwell students, graduates and professors who attended and led the church. I was a Gordon College student, and hated Massachusetts, but the church fellowship situation was good.
Ted,
I agree with your comment. My use of, unity at all cost, is a reference to unity in purpose, resources and pragmatism.
It would mean a rejection of 2nd separation practiced by old Fundamentalist. An end to public feuds over doctrines that outside observers can’t understand, and damage Christian witness. Suppressing local or denominational idiosyncrasies like White/Colored demarcated seating at religious events.
And..the big one..
Suppress Dispensationalism’s spread, while attempting to bring Disp back into fold of Protestant tradition.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
You think there is not a real political party of the left? You really must be a “credentialed ” news entity if you really believe that. The dems have no problem with abortion at any stage. They even have no problem with partial birth abortion. They think a man can become a woman via surgery and/or medication and then compete against your children in collegiate sports. They believe illegal aliens have more rights than citizens of this country. They advocate drag queen story hour at the public library. Marxists and socialists are members of the Democratic Party and serve in Congress furthering that agenda. You really believe there is no party of the left?
If that is not a party of the left then what is?
Please do not discuss politics. All it will do is tear us apart.