Mark Driscoll and The Trinity Church: Are Church Members Being Harmed by Driscoll’s Apparent Paranoia?

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If a spiritual teacher says something that doesn’t make sense to you, you should always listen to yourself and not the teacher. A little common sense would end all cults.-Frederick Lenz


To members of Trinity Church who might read this:  I am a Christian who is a member of a conservative Lutheran church. My hope is that you might come to understand that your church leadership is rather odd. Good churches do not do stuff like is discussed in this post.


To quote Yogi Berra, “It’s deja vu all over again.” When I started this blog, there were two ministries we majored in: CJ Mahaney/Sovereign Grace Ministries and Mark Driscoll. I am on vacation in Florida. Todd kindly wrote two articles on Sovereign Grace Churches (Did the name change fool you?) I shall follow that up with reports of major creepiness at Trinity Church- Mark Driscoll’s latest attempt at founding and running a church in lovely Scottsdale, Arizona. I believe that it is possible that Driscoll was so surprised, as well as angered, by the downfall of Mars Hill that he has become obsessed with protecting himself from any sort of negativity. That extends to his family as well.

However, given his preaching and leadership style, he will continue to be under the microscope. Unfortunately, it is my opinion that we are looking at emotional instability in the pulpit.

The Trinity Church is run by the Driscoll family, including the kids and one spouse. There are no elders.

Let’s take a look at what the church website tells us.

Of course, Brother Mark is the lead pastor. His wife, Grace, is the head of women’s ministries. Landon Chase, who married Ashley Driscoll (Mark’s daughter) is a pastor at the church. Mark’s daughter, Ashley, runs the Real Faith program. Driscoll’s son, Zac, is the director of Interns.

The Driscoll kids are all walking with Jesus and helped plant The Trinity Church in Scottsdale, Arizona as a family ministry.

What in the world is a family ministry?  Apparently, it means a church in which Driscoll’s family members have been appointed into leadership roles. In the case of Driscoll’s church, his wife is also a  pastor and there are no elders who might turn on Driscoll as he implements his rather unusual ministry protocols. You can see Driscoll’s ministry hierarchy on the Evangelical Dark Web.

It appears that Driscoll has abandoned his Calvinista beliefs that John Piper admired so greatly.

Not unexpectedly, weirdness ensues. A teen boy kisses Driscool’s teen daughter which leads to the church hiring of a surveillance team paid for by church funds.

Three articles outline what happened. You’re gonna love this, folks.

Julie Roys posted Mark Driscoll Accused of Cult-Like Actions; 24/7 Surveillance, Mandated Loyalty.

Warren Throckmorton posted  Mark Driscoll’s Cult-Like Actions: Julie Roys Enters the Chat and The Trinity Church May Be Watching You

Overview:

The teenage son of Angelo and Katherine Manuele allegedly kissed Alexie, the daughter of the Driscoll. His entire family was thrown out of the church. According to Julie Roys:

The church then pressured other families to shun the Manueles, the couple says, and even filed charges with police against the Manueles for “threatening communication.”

The Manueles say they have threatened no one.

Trinity’s former head of security, Chad Freese, a cybersecurity expert and a former Marine, said Trinity hired a private investigator to surveille the Manuele family 24/7. He says teams, including pastors, tracked the Manueles as they went to local shops and businesses—even their own neighborhood.

On Julies blog, there is a message from one member of the church to Katherine, telling her that she will no longer be friends with Katherine. This decision was apparently reached “after much prayer.” How could this woman ditch her friend merely because her son kissed Driscoll’s daughter? I don’t know who she’s listening to during her sessions of much prayer but it most certainly isn’t God. She is being sucked into Driscoll’s bizarre behavior.

Thankfully, the Manueles’ family is going to fight back. According to Roys:

The Manueles say they’re going to fight the charge of “threatening communication” the church has filed against them. Plus, Angelo Manuele said he’s filed a charge of “false imprisonment” with Scottsdale Police for Brandon Anderson locking Vince in Anderson’s office and interrogating him.

According to Warren Throckmorton:

Church funds were expended to hire security personnel to follow them and report back concerning their activities.

He also states that the head of security, who eventually resigned, along with other staff and ‘members, claims the family was followed in the community during their day-to-day activities.

Chad Freese, a cybersecurity expert and a former Marine, said Trinity hired a private investigator to surveille the Manuele family 24/7. He says teams, including pastors, tracked the Manueles as they went to local shops and businesses—even their own neighborhood.

As Dee Holmes has often said, “This stuff reeks of the tactics of Scientology!”

It gets even weirder. It appears Driscoll has invented “the spectrum of trust.” Is he paranoid?

What? You never heard of needing to assess how close you can let people get to you on a scale of 1-10? According to Julie Roys:

On April 7, Freese said Mark Driscoll pulled the entire staff into a “training session.” Driscoll then reportedly drew his “spectrum of trust” on a dry-erase board, rating people’s loyalty from 0 to 10 to determine their access to Driscoll’s family.

Freese said Anderson then said that Freese’s security team was at a “level nine.” But because Freese and his wife had appeared in a picture posted on social media with former worship pastor, Dustin Blatnik, who reportedly had been fired by Trinity, Freese and his wife were a “level 8.

Given the fact that Mark Driscoll blocked me on Twitter years ago, I assume that I’m at “level 0” but I stand proud! This sort of thing appears to be paranoid behavior. Driscoll is apparently protecting himself from any person that he perceives will cause him pain. I would love to see the entire chart.

Dee Holmes (aka mirele) continues her one-woman protest outside of Trinity Church.

Dee has long been protesting outside of his church. She has ramped up her appearances in recent weeks. The following is a comment she made on Warren Throckmorton’s blog.mirele

* He filed charges of “threatening communications” against the M family for their Facebook posts.

* He allegedly spent $15K on hiring a security firm to spy on the M family, tail them, etc. I fully expect that Driscoll has told his staff and security to find out more information about me.

* His security team has a Be On the Look Out board of cards for people who are visitors to TTC and are a) all access, b) very limited access or c) completely forbidden.

* He also ranks people on their trustworthiness from 0 to 10. The 10s get to be in the inner circle. The 0s include people thrown out and presumably me as well.

…Oh, btw, David, Warren Throckmorton posted to his blog how Mark’s director of security, Chad Freese left, not because of the cops being called on the family, but because Driscoll authorized the spending of church money to hire private investigator(s). Back in the day, Scientology used to do that, they had Eugene Ingram on retainer and a bunch of other guys they’d hire to tail whoever was annoying them the most at the moment.

How many of you remember Mar Driscoll threatening to throw people under the proverbial bus while he was at Mars Hill? I find it odd that he has a beat-up old bus on the church property.  I wonder if this is his statement to a watching world?

Please reads Julie’s blog post. It has lots of great information in it.

Now back to the beach with all of my family members, none of whom appear to be paranoid!

 

Comments

Mark Driscoll and The Trinity Church: Are Church Members Being Harmed by Driscoll’s Apparent Paranoia? — 96 Comments

  1. To say Driscoll is cult-like, as Throckmorton does, is an insult to cults everywhere. Driscoll and family sound like they’re ready to start passing out the cups of Kool-Aid. Thanks, Dee, for posting.

  2. “there are no elders who might turn on Driscoll”

    He learned that at Mars Hill. It took a while, but the MH elders finally did the right thing and sent him packing. Of course, the Mars Hill church network disbanded after Driscoll’s departure, because Mars Hill ‘was’ Driscoll. Trinity Church is Driscoll … he’s quite the entertainer.

  3. It’s sad, but there is a segment of American churchgoers who love pastors like radical potty-mouth Driscoll … it makes them feel better about themselves. Pursuit of holiness is not something that pops up on their radar.

  4. I do not know what you are all talking about, it all sounds like Christ like behavior! Didn’t Mark Driscoll say it was all about Jesus while at Mars Hill ? ( I am being sarcastic)….

  5. Absolutely, I had hoped that he might have changed when he left Mars Hill and sorry to admit it, I had started to listen to his messages again. Despite everyone’s warnings on this site I had drank the Driscoll’s kool-aid.
    Based on his recent actions, he hasn’t changed a bit except his location. I am done with him, his life doesn’t jive with what he teaches and what is on his website.
    Sorry Wartburger’s for not listening too you, as usual you saw through all the smoke and mirrors to his true character.

  6. Re:
    “Driscoll then reportedly drew his “spectrum of trust” on a dry-erase board, rating people’s loyalty from 0 to 10 to determine their access to Driscoll’s family.”
    —-

    Has Mark Driscoll been watching “Meet the Parents” one too many times?

    “Meet the Parents / Meet the Fockers – Circle of Trust compilation”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHJGoZpFeM8

    —-
    Mark Driscoll can rate me as a -10 (that is, a NEGATIVE ten) on his scale of trust.

  7. Also, Mark Driscoll’s paranoia and easily offended sensibilities reminds me of Dave Ramsey and how Ramsey handles his work environments / company.

    Are Driscoll and Ramsey friends?

  8. I think some of this paranoia is baked into the A29 network.

    In 2015 (or maybe early 2016) I attended a church planting conference at our A29 church. Brian Howard (currently the Executive Director of A29) was the main speaker. One of the things I distinctly remember was his advice to always plant a church as the solo/senior pastor, because you can never really be sure of the partner you are planting with, unless it’s basically a BFF you’d grown up with. My husband wryly observed later that this takes away a level of accountability.

    The other thing I remember was one of the hosting pastors asking toward the end, “How can we get our ladies more involved? We want them here at things like this!” I was one of three women in a room of 40-50 men, and I think the only one younger than 50. Given I was there with my infant strapped to my chest, I would think the answer was obvious. Several of the men attending from our congregation would have had to take time off work to attend. But none of their stay-at-home wives were encouraged to do the same.

  9. Wild Honey: church planting conference at our A29 church … “How can we get our ladies more involved? We want them here at things like this!”

    In the A29 world, women are only derivatives of men … women are images of God only through men … they just need to stay home and bask in the “beauty of complementarity” … their involvement in things like this doesn’t amount to anything. (disclaimer: this is according to NeoCal icon Bruce Ware, not Wartburger Max)

  10. I can only imagine what his church membership contract contains. Those contracts are pretty much about control and conformity anyway, and he sounds like a control freak to the nth degree.

  11. Muff Potter: https://phoenixpreacher.com/39578-2/

    From the linked article: “The story that needs to be investigated is about why anyone would attend a church he heads and why anyone would think him qualified to do so.”

    As I’ve said numerous times on TWW, actors like Driscoll would not have a stage if they didn’t have an audience willing to buy tickets to the show.

    There is a psychological ailment in a segment of the American church that applauds and enables such “pastors.” IMO, some churchgoers flock to them because they like bad actor “men of God” who make them feel better about their own unregenerate condition. During his Mars Hill / Acts 29 glory days, potty-mouth Driscoll attracted a larger and larger audience the nastier and more irreverent he became. The New Calvinist elite tolerated him for a season because he was important to their movement … when the potato became too hot to handle, their previous endorsement became “Driscoll who?”

    Yep, a certain corner of the American church has a sickness unto spiritual death. Driscoll knows how to work it to his advantage.

  12. dee: I still can’t believe I’m talking about Driscoll yet again!!!

    I have a feeling that Pastor Mark will provide fodder for your blog for years to come, Dee. Enjoy!

  13. Let’s take an axe to the root of this tree … the pew is spiritually sick. The pew enables wayward ministers and ministries … the pew gives standing ovations to bad actors … the pew prefers entertainment over holiness … the pew finances another gospel. Without the pew, such pulpits would not exist. Why? … because the pew ain’t got a clue!

  14. Daisy: rating people’s loyalty from 0 to 10 to determine their access to Driscoll’s family.”

    Circling the wagons by surrounding oneself with loyal family “employees” is one of the four pillars of demagoguery. Fact.

  15. There is a quote I like, that is both accurate and yet too flip for the situation.
    “There isn’t enough popcorn in Orville Redenbacher’s kingdom”.

    This whole thing is crazy to watch, and yet sad and terrible. I am concerned that we are seeing degradation in the already strong authoritarian streak of Mr. Driscoll, and that it will end in tragedy at some point.

    Without elders, or a denomination, or any sort of “in” into the leadership, how do you intervene?

  16. Daisy: “Driscoll then reportedly drew his “spectrum of trust” on a dry-erase board, rating people’s loyalty from 0 to 10 to determine their access to Driscoll’s family.”

    It’s all about Driscoll … it always has been.

  17. Magistos: Without elders, or a denomination, or any sort of “in” into the leadership, how do you intervene?

    To borrow an appropriate Scripture: “Ephraim is joined to idols, so let him alone, to suffer the consequences” (Hosea 4:17).

    Knowledgeable observers can only provide wisdom and warning. Folks choose to follow such folks or not, to heed warnings or not. At Mars Hill and in the Acts 29 community, thousands were left confused and disillusioned when Driscoll fell. Consequences.

  18. Does the photo of the three men on Trinity’s About Us page strike anyone else as peculiar in a certain way?

  19. Magistos: Without elders, or a denomination, or any sort of “in” into the leadership, how do you intervenee?

    He left his leadership at Mars Hill. He has no use for any leadership that can affect him. He is, in my never to be humble opinion, a nutjob.

  20. Good old Van Morrison’ new album must know Mr D well, or is it luck

    “Let me introduce the fella
    Group him under one umbrella
    Called the western man, I tell ya
    He’s something you should see
    Break him down he’ll build another
    Next time round he’ll take it further
    In the end he’ll call you brother
    In his own democracy

    He’ll sign them on as inventory
    Disregard their sacred story
    If they refuse they’ll feel the fury
    Of all that he can do
    He befriends, they fall asunder
    He recalls a tiny blunder
    Depends on which regime you’re under
    To change your attitude“

  21. Max:
    It’s sad, but there is a segment of American churchgoers who love pastors like radical potty-mouth Driscoll … it makes them feel better about themselves.Pursuit of holiness is not something that pops up on their radar.

    Max, that’s just an over-reaction to all the More-Pious-Than-Thou Church Lady types.
    Firewall it in the opposite direction.
    Like Communism and Objectivism – total opposites on the surface, equally extreme, both just as nasty and corrupt under the surface.

  22. dee: He left his leadership at Mars Hill. He has no use for any leadership that can affect him. He is, in my never to be humble opinion, a nutjob.

    He’s a Cult Leader.
    Like Jim Jones, like Mo David, like Bo & Peep.

    “BOW TO ME!
    FAITHFULLY!
    BOW TO ME!
    IN ECSTASY!”
    — Black Sabbath Music Video (back when MTV was still running music videos)

  23. Magistos: This whole thing is crazy to watch, and yet sad and terrible. I am concerned that we are seeing degradation in the already strong authoritarian streak of Mr. Driscoll, and that it will end in tragedy at some point.

    White Night at Driscolltown?

  24. Max: It’s all about Driscoll … it always has been.

    “THERE IS NO ‘YOU’,
    THERE IS ONLY ME!
    THERE IS NO ‘YOU’,
    THERE IS ONLY ME!
    THERE IS NO F’IN ‘YOU’ –
    THERE IS ONLY MEEEEEEEE!”
    — Trent Reznor/Nine Inch Nails

  25. dee: Jeffrey Chalmers,

    His view of Jesus is somewhat off-kilter. Driscoll seems to view himself as more important than Jesus.

    Because in his mind he IS.

    “I SHALL EXALT *MY* THRONE ABOVE THAT OF THE MOST HIGH!!!”

  26. dee,

    If one holds to the concept that Jesus, while on earth, was “all knowing”, then he knew from day one that Judas “joined the group”, and what it would led to…
    Jesus did not “kick him out”! Sigh…..
    why aren’t “prominent Christian leaders” calling this Driscoll out??

    So, there is a Facebook page called “Leah Remini: the aftermath”.. which is discussing the Church of Scientology …. anyway, JulieRoy’s report on Driscoll pops up…. and boy is there also allot of bad feelings about Christians….. the longer clowns like Driscoll et al continue to exist, and are not called out, the more American Culture is going to have a bad perception of Christianity…..

  27. If church staff committed a false imprisonment crime against the boy by forcing him into an office and locking the door, the church’s surveillance and actions against him and his family might constitute tampering with a witness or victim.

    18 U.S. Code § 1512
    (b)Whoever knowingly uses intimidation, threatens, or corruptly persuades another person, or attempts to do so, or engages in misleading conduct toward another person, with intent to—
    (3)hinder, delay, or prevent the communication to a law enforcement officer or judge of the United States of information relating to the commission or possible commission of a Federal offense…

    (I’m not a lawyer)

  28. They’re being harmed by being in his church.

    Even being in the same universe appears damaging to many people.

  29. dee:
    Jeffrey Chalmers,

    His view of Jesus is somewhat off-kilter. Driscoll seems to view himself as more important than Jesus. Did Jesus have a “spectrum of trust?”

    Driscoll would probably say He should have, after all Judas Iscariot betrayed Him.

  30. dee: I still can’t believe I’m talking about Driscoll yet again!!!

    I can’t believe I’m back on his church’s sidewalk.

    I’d stopped picketing at the end of 2016 (for the most part) because of a larger thing that infected American Evangelicals at the time, which is outside the purview of this blog. Then there’s been the pandemic and the only reason I feel “freer” to go outside and do much of ANYTHING is because I have my vaccinations.

    However, it wasn’t until Driscoll called the cops on the Manuele family that my last nerve got stepped on. This is the sort of thing Scientology does. *Then* I found out that Driscoll allegedly authorized spending $15,000 on a private investigator to tail the Manueles around. I just remembered back to the bad old days when Scientology sicced its PIs on everyone opposed to them and that last nerve was stomped into the dust.

    Let me be clear–this is about Driscoll. I’ve told people at Mark Driscoll’s Circus of “Where’s Jesus?” that if Driscoll left, I’d leave too. Because it’s not about Jesus. It’s about a guy with an enormous ego, who is profoundly abusive. And we’ve all known this for a long time.

    Evangelicalism has no way to deal with these guys. They just shuffle along down the road with their followers, pop up again like jungle vines elsewhere and ensnare others. But what’s worse is when other pastors, church influencers and others help guys like Mark Driscoll get another start when they know very well that Driscoll is dangerous. There’s a Southern Baptist church within walking distance of my house, and every time I drive by, I think about how Driscoll was invited to preach there early in 2016 before anyone knew he was coming here and I just give the place the big ole side eye.

    Oh, and that bus, it’s just junk and quite a contrast to the other items Driscoll has bought recently for the front yard of the church–shiny faux Airstream, a grill, a half dozen picnic tables, a half-dozen beach umbrellas on wheels, two or three (can’t remember) industrial size misting fans and speakers. Oh, I’m sure I’m forgetting something, but this is the key thing–the Google Maps camera went by there in December and only a few picnic tables were there.

    There are other things I know about Driscoll and his spending and all I can say is that he must be racking in the tithes and offerings if he can buy all this *stuff* and more, and shell out $15K (allegedly) for a PI.

    This is not going to end well.

  31. Am I the only one who might think that the 17 year-old daughter of Driscoll could have easily been the initiator of this ‘kiss’ and not the 15 year-old boy as we’ve been led to believe? Why wasn’t she locked in a room with scary men until her father came??

  32. Bridget:
    Am I the only one who might think that the 17 year-old daughter of Driscoll could have easily been the initiator of this ‘kiss’ and not the 15 year-old boy as we’ve been led to believe? Why wasn’t she locked in a room with scary men until her father came??

    She probably WAS “locked” in a room with a scary man, but she didn’t have anyone to rescue her because her daddy WAS the scary man.

  33. Bridget,

    Given the Driscoll family are all in the “ministry”, (?), he is applying the Moses model and say, “Touch not thy Anointed”!

  34. Wild Honey: She probably WAS “locked” in a room with a scary man, but she didn’t have anyone to rescue her because her daddy WAS the scary man.

    Well, it appears the whole family wants in on the family business. They all can draw salaries and it’s a nonprofit to boot. It will take a lot to break away from that sweet deal.

  35. I’m not troubled by the existence of a spectrum of trust so much as by the report that MD diagrammed it in a staff meeting. That looks like manipulation and perhaps even “divide and conquer” (if people compete with each other for the status of “more highly trusted” than their co-workers). IMO not highly righteous personnel management techniques.

    FWIW, I have a “spectrum of trust”, too, but it’s analog: “known not trustworthy” through “unknown” through “known trustworthy”; I suppose one could digitize this from -10 through 10. In one memorable incident, an interlocutor went from “unknown” to “definitely untrusted” in the span of about 90 seconds. It was a scam, claiming to be an old co-worker and needing help to stay off the streets. There aren’t many things that really offend me face-to-face interaction, but trying to manipulate me with lies is one that does. I would probably not be a good parishioner in a MD “ministry” corporation.

  36. dee: Did Jesus have a “spectrum of trust?”

    I think that one could argue that Jesus did, but I feel confident that he didn’t use it to manipulate his followers. He clearly had to make assessments about “to whom” and “how much” to reveal about his intentions. His obvious “cageyness” in interaction with plainly hostile people demanding to know who he thought he was is one example of how he dealt with people he had reason to regard as untrustworthy.

    Basically, nearly everyone was untrustworthy. Even the people at the very “top”, the apostles, seem to have wanted to use Jesus for their own purposes — or wanted to be close to him because they thought that served their ends. He repeatedly reproved them about this, but it was not until some point between the ascension and Pentecost that they actually repented. I suspect that it was not until they repented that the Spirit was willing to work among them; one could argue that that is the explanation of the remark in the Johannine supper discourse that it was necessary for Jesus to depart from the midst of the apostles, as otherwise the Spirit would not come.

  37. dee: spectrum of trust

    Driscoll would never trust anyone who spoke correction into his life and ministry. He will never put himself into a situation again where he is accountable to anyone. The dudebros he trusted turned on him at Mars Hill and Acts 29 and rightfully sent him packing.

  38. Max,

    Newnham has said pretty much everything you’ve said over at his blog (regarding the state of American Christianity).
    When two men arrive at the same conclusions separately and with no collaboration, it’s probably a sign of the times.

  39. Bridget: Am I the only one who might think that the 17 year-old daughter of Driscoll could have easily been the initiator of this ‘kiss’ and not the 15 year-old boy as we’ve been led to believe?

    No, you’re not the only one, I too wondered about it.
    Even if she did, and given the status of females (not to mention being the daughter of a kind of bronze age tribal chieftain) in a fundagelical cult, they’d probably be very reluctant to assign any culpability her way.

  40. Is Mark Driscoll becoming paranoid?

    I think he’s well beyond “becoming” at this point in time. I shudder to think who else is undergoing unwelcome surveillance from the DIA (Driscoll Intelligence Agency). Meanwhile, that poor teenage kid likely didn’t realize that simply kissing the senior pastor’s daughter would result in his and his family’s lives being turned upside down.

  41. teen-agers kiss. it’s as normal as 98.6 degrees body temp. i think dads should get over it.

  42. Bridget,

    How tragic that at least half the tragedies featured here are indeed family businesses demonstrating that family businesses used for “spiritual” kudos go wrong.

    Samuel Conner,

    Thank you Samuel for your Ascensiontide comments. After Ascension to “tarry in Jerusalem” meant to discern communion, i.e not treating the souls of others as a commodity to be croupiered about on the bargaining board. That is what will tell if spiritual gifts will become blasphemous or not, and is Pentecost’s link to Resurrection. This is why “placing your sacrifice on the threshold and becoming reconciled” has to do with leaving when we see an abomination of desolation in the Temple. Indeed, the Holy and not Unholy, Trinity is about space for the other other.

    singleman,

    1. What would the phrase “make out” really mean?

    2. If the M. family didn’t sign one of those covenant contract jobbies (assuming those aren’t just one-sided), can they “prove” (to those police) they weren’t trespassing all along?

  43. I read about this case with the Manuele family. After all that happened with this clown they went to…and tried to stay while all this went on.

    I can understand folks getting sucked into a cult but Driscoll practically had neon sign blinking “psychopath” over his head.

    And the money? Church might not be where it’s all coming from. He probably walked away with a pot of cash from Mars Hill.

    Praise be.

  44. elastigirl: teen-agers kiss. it’s as normal as 98.6 degrees body temp. i think dads should get over it

    Daddy Driscoll hasn’t exactly been the perfect model of purity. His potty-mouth, bad-boy preacher persona, and graphic “Real Marriage” book are legendary.

  45. singleman: I shudder to think who else is undergoing unwelcome surveillance from the DIA (Driscoll Intelligence Agency).

    Anyone who would willingly sit under the man’s ministry at this point needs to be surveilled! Yep, both pulpit and pew need to be closely monitored and observed in the days ahead.

  46. Muff Potter: Newnham has said pretty much everything you’ve said … a sign of the times

    A kindred spirit … they come along every once in a while. I’ve been “preachin” this stuff for years … the institutional church in America is in a mess. But, I’m comforted to know that Jesus didn’t come to redeem institutions; He came to redeem individuals … and He can do that outside of brick and mortar churches. The real Church – the Body of Christ – is struggling to find a home in what we call church. A sign of the times, indeed.

  47. Max: But, I’m comforted to know that Jesus didn’t come to redeem institutions; He came to redeem individuals … and He can do that outside of brick and mortar churches.

    Amen and Amen to that. I have been seeing this over the past couple of years. I have seen God do some remarkable stuff, but it is really outside of the kind of strict institutional control reported here. If all someone does is focus on the institutional reporting going on in this blog, all you are going to see is deep darkness. If you want to see the light, you got to not only look up from that to Jesus but you also have to come to Him in person. He is the only way, only truth and only life for anyone to find on this earth. The institutions love leveraging His authority for selfish purposes. But at some point in time you have to stop looking at those institutions and get a personal vision of the Son of God.

    The hard point of this is facing the humility required to approach and the very real certain aspects of God that are frightening, like the final judgment. But I have found once I chose to do that that I could finally find a place of peace in my own soul. The mercy and grace of God have no context, I think, until you face the reality of the place where these things end for so many people. When you see that they do not end for you then and only then do you see the grace and mercy for what they truly are.

  48. Max: Anyone who would willingly sit under the man’s ministry at this point needs to be surveilled!Yep, both pulpit and pew need to be closely monitored and observed in the days ahead.

    Don’t forget his “thing” for both ends of the alimentary canal.

    I was surprised when he got hit by that book-juicing scandal.
    I figured he’d go down in yet another sex scandal.

  49. Jack: I can understand folks getting sucked into a cult but Driscoll practically had neon sign blinking “psychopath” over his head.

    What if you’ve been catechized to see “PSYCHOPATH” as THE Sign Of GOD’s Anointing?

  50. Ava Aaronson: Fringe(s). Now normalized.

    With the Invasion of the Body Snatchers Pod People point-and-howl at anyone who’s NOT a fringie.

  51. Headless Unicorn Guy: I was surprised when he got hit by that book-juicing scandal.

    “Pastor Mark Driscoll has issued an apology after a prolonged silence regarding numerous charges of plagiarism in his books. In the statement released to “The Christian Post,” the controversial minister says he expects Jesus to use the experience for his betterment.”

    https://religionnews.com/2013/12/18/mark-driscoll-apologizes-mistakes-plagiarism-controversy/

    I hate it when folks drag Jesus into their mess!

  52. Jack: And the money? Church might not be where it’s all coming from. He probably walked away with a pot of cash from Mars Hill.

    Bingo.

  53. It was only a kiss….

    Coming out of my cage
    And I’ve been doing just fine
    Gotta gotta be down
    Because I want it all
    It started out with a kiss..

    How did it end up like this?
    It was only a kiss, it was only a kiss…

    Jealousy, turning saints into the sea
    Swimming through sick lullabies
    Choking on your alibis
    But it’s just the price I pay
    Destiny is calling me
    Open up my eager eyes..

    Cause I’m Mr. Brightside

  54. Max: “… charges of plagiarism in his books … the controversial minister says he expects Jesus to use the experience for his betterment” https://religionnews.com/2013/12/18/mark-driscoll-apologizes-mistakes-plagiarism-controversy/

    To borrow another Aldous Huxley quote: “Experience is not what happens to you; it’s what you do with what happens to you.”

    Repentance would have been a good place for Driscoll to start. I don’t remember hearing anything about his profound sorrow for the misc. misbehaving in his ministry. Instead, he appears to have launched an unrepentant comeback in Phoenix – this time with no accountability system in place.

  55. Methinks Jesus *IS* using it for his betterment, exposing him as false before the world. Because honestly, using the Lord’s name in vain is a serious sin, and better to be scandalized before the world than be unrepentant before the Throne.

    Make no mistake, that is what he is doing in my estimation – using the Lord’s name for your own betterment, in false piety, for fraud, etc, THAT is using the Lord’s name in vain.

  56. Q. Why does Mark Driscoll, and his wife see the need to protect their 17 year old daughter?

  57. I like seeing who comes onto Julie Roys blog to defend Mark. Those who live in the Valley of the Sun may find this interesting. A pastor Michael Ledner, apparently of Desert Stream Chapel up on Cactus, came on to defend Mark. I thanked him for his honesty. A pastor who thinks Driscoll is sane and behaving righteously is someone we can all stay a long ways away from. The fact some of these guys appear to lack the common sense to avoid publicly defending the indefensible I consider a blessing. But it begs the question of what kinds of things go on in Ledner’s private church?

  58. Jack:

    And the money? Church might not be where it’s all coming from. He probably walked away with a pot of cash from Mars Hill.

    When the “leaders“ can exempt themselves from the requirements they put on the winsomely sheared sheep – – nest-feathering contributions primarily or solely to the “local church“, consequences and discipline for going astray (or being told / adjudged that you were going astray)– – Including all manners of oversight, transparency, and accountability, this is what can happen.

    Many evidently don’t stand still themselvesl for discipline or consequences; they seem to just move on with whatever they’ve gotten – – sometimes expanding that through pre-existing agreements crafted in friendly circumstances – – and then get busy with whatever avocation they feel like (often more of the same) after a “season“. And the percentage of those adjudging themselves disqualified from ministry – – or what they called from ministry – – can seem as rare as a dodo bird. Even those that might acknowledge that will often find a way to “restore“ themselves, especially to the moneymaking aspect of new “ministry“.

  59. Muff Potter: I just don’t get all the angst (in some quarters of evangelicalism) over perfectly natural boy-meets-girl interplay…

    I don’t either!

  60. Bridget,

    Because Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism has a unhealthy fixation on sex…. given I grew up in it, and then went to “evil secular Universities”, and spend my life teaching there, I can say that fundamentalist talk more about sex than any other org I have been around…

  61. Jeffrey J Chalmers:
    Bridget,

    Because Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism has a unhealthy fixation on sex….given I grew up in it, and then went to “evil secular Universities”, and spend my life teaching there, I can say that fundamentalist talk more about sex than any other org I have been around…

    Long ago, I came to the conclusion that Christians are as screwed-up sexually as everyone else, just in a different (and usually opposite) direction. At least as screwed up as any sexual obsession poster child I’ve encountered in the fringes of Furry Fandom.

  62. Mr. Jesperson: I like seeing who comes onto Julie Roys blog to defend Mark. Those who live in the Valley of the Sun may find this interesting.

    It’s called The Valley of The Sun for a reason.
    Isn’t confusion/dementia one of the symptoms of severe sunstroke?

  63. Sòpwyth:
    Q. Why does Mark Driscoll, and his wife see the need to protect their 17 year old daughter?

    Because ehe’s his property, to be married off unspoiled for the personal advantage/gain of House Driscoll.

  64. Magistos: Methinks Jesus *IS* using it for his betterment, exposing him as false before the world. Because honestly, using the Lord’s name in vain is a serious sin, and better to be scandalized before the world than be unrepentant before the Throne.

    And “using the LORD’s Name in vain” DOESN’T refer to cussing.

  65. I saw, in a small informal church, a 13 year old boy take his turn drumming, and another the same age take his turn at the sound desk. They were both more subtle at it than most of the older ones. It was small and informal and there was genuine belief and everyone knew each other better than in high profile churches.

    When a target family approaches one of those consumerist outfits they may have been led to believe the “worship product” is a worthwhile outlet, and gives the church bosses an excuse to “cultivate” a younger element. But according to the Old and New Testaments, actual worship is an attitude towards our fellow widows and orphans, that doesn’t imply stringing them along.

    Emotional intensity drenches so much that is going on and so many people that are in the thick. The Manueles didn’t deserve this, but the pew sitters that don’t notice they are being had don’t deserve that either.

  66. ChuckP: Despite everyone’s warnings on this site I had drank the Driscoll’s kool-aid.
    Sorry Wartburger’s for not listening too you, as usual you saw through all the smoke and mirrors to his true character.

    It’s got to be hard to admit that Chuck. I think it would be instructive to hear what got you listening to Mark Driscoll again, especially given what you knew about his past.

    What was it in his messages, his style, or anything else about him , which attracted you to listen? I would appreciate hearing from you because I have friends who avidly follow personalities like Mark Driscoll. understanding what pulls them in would be very helpful as I seek to engage them.

  67. Michael in UK: Emotional intensity drenches so much that is going on and so many people that are in the thick.

    Including leaping around and cutting themselves with knives in Holy Frenzy?

  68. Sòpwyth: Hug, Respectfully, do you have a spouse and children?

    No. Just grew up with a sociopath in my immediate family.

  69. Headless Unicorn Guy: “using the LORD’s Name in vain” DOESN’T refer to cussing

    Yes, “don’t cuss” is cited by churchfolks who routinely take God’s name in vain through the way they live. They want to distract others from themselves by focusing on cussers.

  70. Sòpwyth: do you have a spouse and children?

    I do, and I concur with HUG that it appears the girl is being treated as property that must be protected at all costs until she is handed off.

    It can be a bit unnerving for parents to realize that their teenage children are having infatuations and starting to kiss and hold hands. The issue isn’t the touching, though. The issue is the parents’ shock that their kids have independent minds, thoughts, and emotions. Infatuations are just a sign that the child is a different person from the parent, and many parents can’t handle it.

  71. Friend: I do, and I concur with HUG that it appears the girl is being treated as property that must be protected at all costs until she is handed off.

    Just like Cersei and/or Sansa in Game of Thrones.