A Humbling Update on Sovereign Grace Churches

“Those who kept silent yesterday will remain silent tomorrow.”
Élie Wiesel, Night


“Let me be clear that we deny – in the strongest terms possible – that any Sovereign Grace Leaders conspired to cover up abuse as alleged in this lawsuit.”
-Mark Prater, Executive Director of Sovereign Grace Churches. “An Open Letter to Members of Sovereign Grace Churches,” October 9, 2014

 

While it has been evident for several years to anyone with a pulse that Mark Prater’s statement from 2014 is a brazen lie, one cannot be faulted for wondering if Prater is familiar with the OSS psychological profile of Hitler and has applied it to the case of covering up the sexual abuse of children in Sovereign Grace churches. Hitler’s profile “described his use of the big lie: never admit a fault or wrong; never concede that there may be some good in your enemy; never leave room for alternatives; never accept blame; concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for everything that goes wrong; people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one, and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it.” (Source).

Listen to Prater extol the “expressions of humility,” so evident to all, of Sovereign Grace Pastors!

 

 

Next, listen to a short excerpt of Mark Prater from his State of the Union Address at the December 2020 Pastor’s Conference. Prater attempts to rally his ragtag band of graduates from Sovereign Grace’s 10-month “Pastor’s College” to shed their shame of being identified as a part of their beleaguered denomination and instead “celebrate our gospel culture.”  That’s right – turn that frown upside down! I’m not really sure what kind of “gospel culture” Prater is peddling, but when you continue to put forth the big lie highlighted in Prater’s statement above, I don’t believe you will have many buyers.

 

Brent Detwiler has written an excellent article titled, “The Conspiracy to Cover Up the Sexual Abuse of Children Under C.J. Mahaney Grows as Shannon Truesdale Comes Forward to Tell Story of Abuse by Her Father & Sister.” Below are some quotes from the article.


Jeff Truesdale, the father of Shannon Truesdale, was a prominent member of Covenant Life Church in Gaithersburg, MD from its beginning in 1977 until he left 37 years later in 2014.  He knew senior pastor C.J. Mahaney extremely well and was good friends with all the pastors on staff.

I met Truesdale in 1982 when he attended a year-long Leadership Training School I conducted for Covenant Life Church (CLC).  We were not close friends but I knew him over the years.  After I sent out The Documents in July 2011, he was one of my sources at CLC.  He was deeply offended (along with hundreds of other members) when C.J. Mahaney fled CLC in August 2011 and escaped to Mark Dever’s Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington D.C. when issues of sin were being addressed in his life.

Truesdale was an esteemed member of the church but in reality, he lived a double life of lying, drinking, getting stoned, and sexually abusing his oldest daughter, Suzanne for approximately eight years.  Suzanne, in turn, sexually abused her younger sister, Shannon for seven years.  Shannon is the one who has come forward to tell her story.

Moreover, Suzanne was also abused by Steve Griney, a teacher in the Covenant Life Elementary School.  All this was known to Mahaney and members of his pastoral staff.  Rather than prosecute Griney or her father, Suzanne was told to “forgive and forget” by the Covenant Life pastors.

In like fashion, Shannon was told by her mother not to tell a soul about Suzanne’s abuse of her.  As a result, she suffered greatly and received no professional help until she sought it at age 21.

In addition, Suzanne was present on two occasions when John Loftness, Gary Ricucci (Mahaney’s brother in law) and Steve Griney acted together in committing crimes against her, Heather Thompson-Bryant, and Jessica Roberts-Thomas. [See Second Amended Complaint.]

In summary, Mahaney and his staff covered up the crimes committed by Truesdale and Griney because they were friends and well-known church members.  They did the same with the crimes committed by Suzanne against her sister, Shannon.  So too the despicable acts carried out by Loftness and Ricucci.

The conspiracy to commit and cover up the sexual abuse of children under Mahaney is a matter of fact, not fiction!  This is another account of incomprehensible evil.

BRENT: I respect what you are doing Shannon so very much.  Yes.  I really, really do.  So when the abuse became known in your family between your Dad and Suzanne [1996], did they go to the pastors and talk about it?  Did they tell anybody else about it?

SHANNON: So I believe that Care Group leaders were involved and then pastors.  I know that John Loftness knew.  John Loftness was our pastor for many years.  Many, many years.  Okay.  Then we were handled off to a new pastor [in 2006] which I cannot remember his name [Eric Sheffer].  I keep seeing his head in my brain but I cannot tell you what his name was.  He was from the Pastors College.  He graduated and he was part of our church for a very short time when I was a part of it.  But he was also aware.  Adam Malcolm was aware of it.  Joshua Harris, they all were aware and helping us through this whole process.  Only my parents were going to the pastors for counseling [in 1996] because Suzanne moved out and that is what gave her the strength to tell my Mom what had happened.  So she wasn’t even living at home when they were kind of starting all of the whole process.


Brent Detwiler forwarded his article to Joshua Harris. You will recall that Joshua Harris was mentored by C.J. Mahaney and then took over as Senior Pastor at Covenant Life Church, leaving Mahaney more time to pursue speaking at conferences and distributing books that ghostwriters authored for him.

Harris resigned from his position at Covenant Life Church in 2015 and moved to Vancouver, B.C. to attend seminary at Regent. In July 2019 Harris took to Instagram to renounce his Christian faith and also announced he was separating from Shannon.

I was shocked to see the Facebook post (screenshot below) by Joshua Harris dated May 5th (link). He has done what no Sovereign Grace Pastor has, that is, he spoke truthfully and admitted his failure as a leader played a part in the pain Shannon Clark (Truesdale) has experienced.  Harris linked to Detwiler’s article – the article I quoted in part above – the article that named names. Names of some pastors who took part in the sexual abuse of young girls and still remain as pastors and leaders in the Sovereign Grace denomination!

Remember the story Jesus told of the Good Samaritan?  He asked, “Now which of these three would you say was a neighbor to the man who was attacked by bandits?”
“The man replied, “The one who showed him mercy.”
Then Jesus said, “Yes, now go and do the same.”

In a similar fashion, I ask which of these would you say was a neighbor to Shannon? The religious leaders in Sovereign Grace, or the man who renounced Christianity?

Comments

A Humbling Update on Sovereign Grace Churches — 80 Comments

  1. I appreciate Harris’s honesty. As you know, I am an Evangelical-pastor-turned-atheist. I spent 25 years pastoring Evangelical churches. After deconverting, I determined I would give an honest accounting of my life. It’s not been easy (painful at times), but I have found the process cathartic. Others have found my writing helpful, and for that I am grateful. Of course, some zealots despise my work. How dare I talk about what goes on behind closed doors. How dare I show where the bodies are buried. How dare I reveal the secret handshake.

    While we differ on matters of religion, we both agree that preachers should be held accountable for what they say and do. Keep up the good work.

  2. The embedded videos are valuable as evidence, but often disagreeable to view.

    I really don’t like listening to these people prate.

  3. What Joshua Harris went through at SGM was enough to make you want to lose your salvation! I’m sure he witnessed a boatload of hypocrisy, deception, and counterfeit ministry within the leadership. We haven’t heard the end of this sad story yet.

  4. Loren Haas:
    When will Joshua Harris name names?
    In a courtroom.

    “When will Joshua Harris name names? In a courtroom.”

    It does seem that if one were trying to distance one’s self from personal responsibility and penalties for when one had direct oversight responsibilities on which the statute of limitations might not have run out, one might position one’s self as regretting what was done and other comments that shift the focus away when things heat up. There might be a naming of the names, but it might come with immunity, and proactive positioning to show a bit of distance might aid that.

    I’m not saying that that’s exactly what is underway here, but it is certainly worth having both eyes open, especially since his current comments may happen to bolster self-preservation and not getting roped in to consequences as much as it would others. That is especially the case since I do not recall any public efforts to put the considerable money that he gained from his position and his book where his mouth is.

    Unless the big takeaway is essentially get wealthy off of something, say later you don’t agree with it even though it involved likely well-compensated years of direct teaching, guidance, and counseling of multiple people and youth with it, actions arguably indicating ‘oops, we good?’ while moving towards the exit seems less than inspiring at face value.

    And that’s while the book and the denomination and the church might have been falling out of favor because of criminal investigations of things that happened during one’s tenure from a position of personal responsibility and oversight (and stepping off as the gravy train shows signs of derailing), which might suggest self-preservation priorities rather than unfettered forthrightness.

    One further thing of concern is on the other side of this comes from some of his limited social media comments that seemed to me to not be from a position of being humbled by his own failings or letting those who were impacted have their say, but essentially letting himself off the hook because he said he was sorry in general. This even has the potential of his positioning himself basically as a spokesman for all things enlightened and integrity on this issue while telling “his story“, with the potential yet again to monetize the situation while wagging the finger at the bad manipulative Christian Industrial Complex and casting himself as a victim of that as well.

    What would be welcome is a lot more humility, and for people who have transgressed in positions of power and influence in churches closing their mouths very hard going forward and not speaking from a supposed position of leadership — and of course not turning it into a cottage industry rather than actually moving on and having a measure of demonstrated repentance and forsaking potential earnings related to the failing and the field.

  5. geoff y: Are you sure that’s actually Harris’s Facebook?

    If you are referring to the image of Harris looking at the water, that is on his Instagram, and you can scroll down to see that text:

    https://www.instagram.com/p/B0ZBrNLH2sl/

    I don’t know what all is on his Facebook, but he can be found there as Joshua Harris of Clear & Loud.

  6. “Let me be clear that we deny – in the strongest terms possible – that any Sovereign Grace Leaders conspired to cover up abuse as alleged in this lawsuit.”
    -Mark Prater, Executive Director of Sovereign Grace Churches. “An Open Letter to Members of Sovereign Grace Churches,” October 9, 2014

    No need to cover up what is not believed in the first place.

    In contrast, looking at the work, for example, of @RobDownenChron of @HoustonChron, as a matter of public record, there are witnesses who are believable, and there are those who believe them in a court of law.

    The ignoring and silencing of witnesses* in churches seems to be common practice. However, unlike Harris, not everyone flees God in the mêlée. There are witnesses who themselves KNOW God acknowledges their stories, and if it weren’t for the God of the Universe upholding truth, they would be completely abandoned, at times. Sometimes if God is all you’ve got, God is all you need. He’s God.

    *witnesses are often women/children, a subclass without voice in the church from the get-go, as per “theological” “biblical” argument & teaching. So nothing to deny. Not heard, not seen, not acknowledged as human, nothing happened, moving on. Ahhhh, that’s over; time to write another book, preach another sermon, hold another conference.

  7. JDV: with the potential yet again to monetize the situation

    That’s rather what I was thinking. It’s just hard to take seriously a “repentance” that goes with pensive glamourshots on Instagram.

  8. Cynthia W.: It’s just hard to take seriously a “repentance” that goes with pensive glamourshots on Instagram.

    The cool guy downer dude marketing his branding, fi$hing for a following.

    First – don’t date & land the perfect marriage. (how did that work out?)
    Now – don’t do church & God. (fi$hing for a boatload of “friend$”)

  9. I just watched the video and listened to the audio – almost more than I could stomach!
    Oh, how great and humble the pastors of Sovereign Grace are (talk about an oxyMORON,)……. all about the men ( the men, the men), and defense of their great founder …….. how embarrassment or reluctance to identify with SG has “creeped into our American culture” *****Creeped into our American culture****** ……… Really??? Talk about true humility!! Two minutes and 35 seconds of that is more than it would take to motive me to walk out the door and never come back!

    No.
    A 10 month pastors’ college …….. that’s not much time to learn from the Bible, or how to pastor a church, but I reckon 10 months is plenty of time for a charlatan to hone his skills on fleecing flocks.

  10. “Creeped into our culture”? Who the heck outside of Calvie Circles has even *heard* of SGM? LOL!

  11. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): Oh, how great and humble the pastors of Sovereign Grace are

    With lackeys in livery blowing long trumpets before them to announce how HUMBLE(TM) they are.

  12. Loren Haas:
    When will Joshua Harris name names?
    In a courtroom.
    Then he will be redeemed.

    Probably never. Harris is now a resident of Canada, safely out of the reach of the U.S. court system. I also wouldn’t be surprised if Covenant Life Church made Harris sign a NDA prior to his resignation.

  13. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): A 10 month pastors’ college …….. that’s not much time to learn from the Bible, or how to pastor a church, but I reckon 10 months is plenty of time for a charlatan to hone his skills on fleecing flocks.

    Is the curriculum accessible to public inspection?

    It seems to me that 10 months would be enough to provide an orientation to the way they “do ministry” (if one wants to call what they do “ministry”) and prepare the students to function as apprentices in subsequent “learn on the job” training under the supervision of experienced “teach on the job” teachers.

    I think that the old model of skilled trades training could be a useful one for training in vocational ministry. Whether that is what SG churches do, or how well they do it, I have no idea.

  14. Dee: Loved the Hitler profile!!!!

    “Millions were ready to give unquestioning loyalty to any man who would promise them what they most needed:
    1. Law & order
    2. A sense of purpose
    3. And above all, belief in themselves.”
    from “Hitler – A Career”, doc on Netflix
    “He was a master at oratory & image.”

    Jesus offers all three of the above, but based in reality (therefore, a long haul journey) and not on oratory & image (much of what goes on in some “churches”).

  15. What a cesspool SGM is…. I can not even keep all players, abusers, and victims straight….
    I have said this before… either I am really missing stuff, or these orgs, such as SGM, are much more perverted than my “secular humanist, academic world” I am involved with professionally… ( of course I am not saying ALL academics, just my little world)
    …. the worst I know of in my world is some colleagues that got drunk at a local karaoke bar at a profession meeting and almost got in a fight with the locals… no sexually things except “normal” divorces, and marring other faculty, no coverups, etc…. Same for my IFB world 40 years ago, I know of a number “sexual scandals” that were covered-up, yet they always told us bad the “secular humanist world was”… hummmm

  16. singleman: I also wouldn’t be surprised if Covenant Life Church made Harris sign a NDA prior to his resignation.

    An NDA used by some ministries = “Keep your mouth shut about all the bad stuff you know about us.” (uhhh … there shouldn’t be any bad stuff in Christian ministry)

  17. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): A 10 month pastors’ college

    The Apostle Paul spent 3 years in the desert after his conversion before he went into ministry. Mark was mentored by Barnabas for a few years before he joined the mission team. The Disciples walked in Jesus’ footsteps for 3 years before they turned the world upside down for Christ. etc. etc. A 10-month pastors’ college just gets you a sorta-man-of-Gawd, equipped with SGM gimmicks of the trade.

  18. singleman: When will Joshua Harris name names?
    In a courtroom.
    Then he will be redeemed.

    Probably never. Harris is now a resident of Canada, safely out of the reach of the U.S. court system. I also wouldn’t be surprised if Covenant Life Church made Harris sign a NDA prior to his resignation.

    The US and Canada have extradition treaties so as long as it doesn’t involve the death penalty or something that Canada considers not illegal (or Canada thinking the person wouldn’t receive a fair trial in a particular jurisdiction [Canada at least once refused to extradite someone accused of attempted murder in North Carolina when the local populace had already lynched the suspect’s brother and cousin {see Matthew Bullock}]), he could be extradited. Note also a NDA cannot be used hide crimes or evade being a witness in a civil case though to be on the safe side one should probably consult a lawyer.

  19. Bruce Gerencser,

    Thanks for the comment Bruce. It has been a while since I have visited your site. I know you to be an honest person and I respect you. I like what an individual wrote about you in the comment section of you blog:

    “Once again I am struck by how much more closely I see Christ in your behavior than in the words and actions of the Evangelicals who condemn you. I believe that it is true that one can best judge a person’s character by their fruits; actions speak louder than words.”

    Salaam!

  20. Samuel Conner,

    I hope to write a post about their pastor’s college in the near future. Of interest to me is the men from outside of Sovereign Grace who teach there. They either don’t believe the overwhelming evidence of the sexual abuse that has taken place, have no discernment, or close their eyes and stop their ears so their consciencea won’t prick them as they collect their $2,000 pay off.

  21. Todd Wilhelm: close their eyes and stop their ears so their consciencea won’t prick them as they collect their $2,000 pay off

    Your post on this will be important and interesting.

    Former Prez Carter’s TED talk on the #1 global human rights issue: women.
    He gave 3 reasons with stats as evidence:
    – increase in violence which makes women vulnerable
    – misguided religion
    – men don’t care (“don’t give a d—“)

    CSA is minors not necessarily women, but apathy probably factors in here, too.

  22. Sòpwyth: Jesus has not stopped being faithful to all those who put their trust in Him.

    Amen! For 70+ years, He has been a Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, and Prince of Peace to me.

    “Do not put your trust in mortal men who cannot save.” (Psalm 146:3)

  23. Todd Wilhelm: close their eyes and stop their ears so their consciencea won’t prick them as they collect their $2,000 pay off.

    “Arrange their minds”, in the words of Reichsminister Speer.

    $2000? Is that 16 denarii adjusted for inflation?

  24. Jeffrey Chalmers: or these orgs, such as SGM, are much more perverted than my “secular humanist, academic world” I am involved with professionally…

    I’m coming to figure they’re more perv than anything I’ve run across in Furry Fandom.

  25. Max: The Apostle Paul spent 3 years in the desert after his conversion… The Disciples walked in Jesus’ footsteps for 3 years… A 10-month pastors’ college just gets you a sorta-man-of-Gawd, equipped with SGM gimmicks of the trade.

    What about three weeks from Altar Call to Pastor?
    (As happened with a Calvary Chapel Moses Model once covered in this blog.)

  26. Mahaney and other SGM leaders promoted themselves in the early days as a new generation of “Apostles”, with Mahaney referring to himself as the “Head Apostle.” I suppose this was to give them a measure of credibility … who is going to challenge an Apostle?!! SGM members who fell for this were some of the most gullible folks on the planet.

  27. Friend,

    I was referring to the screenshot of the Facebook post. I’ve seen his Instagram and his Clear & Loud page, but I see no trace of this particular Facebook account. Great, if real. Just wondering if it is.

  28. Todd Wilhelm,

    Well, maybe I’m just social media illiterate, but here’s what I see:

    -On Instagram (not Facebook), the entry for July 26, 2019, of Joshua Harris ad Joffre Lake.

    -On Facebook, the entry about Shannon Clark, with the small photo of the shouting child Joshua Harris and the larger photo of the group.

    The point of confusion: You don’t mention Instagram in the post, yet that is where Harris famously told his story about his marriage and new ventures. You do mention Facebook immediately below the Harris-at-the lake image that appears to come from Instagram; I believe that paragraph below is introducing material that follows, from the Facebook entry.

    Here is a link to what I found on Instagram (Harris looking at lake): https://www.instagram.com/p/B0ZBrNLH2sl/

    This is really small potatoes, but people might follow your logic better if they understand the sources. Again, if I’m dense, please forgive.

  29. Todd Wilhelm: close their eyes and stop their ears so their consciences won’t prick them

    The upcoming divorce of the century: she warned her businessman philanthropist husband regarding collaborating with a dangerous & criminal predator of young women. Husband ignored. Oops. Or, he doesn’t care, as former Prez Carter would say. About women. Meanwhile, she, the wife, wrote & published: “The Moment of Lift: How Empowering Women Changes the World”. Wow.

    Interesting saga:
    Wife sees a prominent dangerous [philanthropist] predator of young girls for who he is.
    Wife shares this fact with husband.
    Husband ignores his wife.
    Husband either doesn’t face facts or doesn’t care about criminal predation, while he collaborates philanthropically with the dangerous predator to “save the world”.
    Wife publishes book about empowering disenfranchised women.
    Wife is divorcing her earplugged husband who ghosted her concerns & warnings.
    Wife carries on: “The Moment of Lift: How Empowering Women Changes the World”

  30. Ava Aaronson,

    Melinda Gates’ book is likely quite interesting. I am waiting for a book by Shannon Bonne to be published in the near future. Sources tell me Shannon will have much to say that will not endear her to the Sovereign Grace boyz.

  31. Todd Wilhelm,

    “Sources tell me Shannon will have much to say that will not endear her to the Sovereign Grace boyz.”
    +++++++++++++++

    it strikes me that all one has to do is recognize their ‘authority’ is pretend. just like kids playing house is pretend…

    whoever plays the mommy has pretend authority over whoever is playing the littl’n.

    of course, if they all really believe it, then it gets weird and dangerous. and with real money instead of play money, they can bribe and silence and manipulate in other ways.

    but it’s all pretend. all one has to do is say ‘see ya’. and just laugh at them when they get all righteous & think they actually have power over you.

    although if they still have this pretend power over your loved ones, that’s tricky.

  32. Ava Aaronson: she warned … Husband ignores his wife …

    This has been going on in New Calvinism for years! Wife warns husband about the aberrations of complimentarity and other NeoCal errors in belief and practice … husband ignores her. That’s why the new reformers want to silence women … most have more discernment and common sense than men. (my wife didn’t hear me say that)

  33. Ava Aaronson,

    I never heard of the book until you mentioned it, so possibly my comments are awry. The book is not about their marriage, though. If it was published in 2019 as a set of essays about the need for women to advance, then it was probably in the writing, editing, and publishing process for a couple of years. It is also likely that a ghost writer was involved, as standard industry practice.

    No, Bill Gates should not ever have met Epstein. Yes, he should have listened to his wife’s warnings. But predators like to have a big Rolodex, and Epstein’s Rolodex included thousands of people and institutions (Harvard, etc.). We don’t know what went on in the Gates marriage. Given their prominence and vast wealth, it is likely that they met every rich fool on Earth in the past 27 years.

  34. Max: Wife warns husband about the aberrations of complimentarity and other NeoCal errors in belief and practice … husband ignores her.

    This has happened in both directions in my marriage. I have perceived things that DH did not, and DH has perceived things that I did not. Fortunately we listen to each other.

    We also don’t have the disadvantage of ridiculous wealth, so there’s that. 🙂

  35. Max: This has been going on in New Calvinism for years!

    Dreadful that “theology” backs up this behavior.
    No wonder there are husbands who “Dateline” their wives, girls who end up tossed like garbage into ditches along US major highways, and DV, CSA in all social strata.

    Theology has the guy’s back. What we read/hear, how we think, what we believe. Matters.

    Tim Fall would attack this “theology” with vigor. Miss him. He was neither a pastor nor a theologian. One would think this “theology” would be a major issue for any & all Christian leaders with a platform (publishing, conferences, vids, pulpits). What are they doing with their platform? What’s their point, end game?

  36. elastigirl: but it’s all pretend. all one has to do is say ‘see ya’. and just laugh at them when they get all righteous & think they actually have power over you.

    One of the things that can really help a struggling soul, is when said soul finally realizes that these guys DO NOT SPEAK FOR GOD.
    Fear evaporates and you (generic you) can move on and get a real life outside of their silly religion.

  37. Friend: This has happened in both directions in my marriage. I have perceived things that DH did not, and DH has perceived things that I did not. Fortunately we listen to each other.

    Now, this is the way “complementarianism” is supposed to work … your gifts complement each other! Neither has control over the other … in Christ, you are equal. Your husband is blessed by not having “selective hearing” … I’m occasionally accused of that, but contribute it to old age 🙂

  38. Muff Potter: One of the things that can really help a struggling soul, is when said soul finally realizes that these guys DO NOT SPEAK FOR GOD.

    It’s also liberating and refreshing when a believer realizes that the laity is just as important as the clergy in the Body of Christ. Whose job is the ministry? Each believer has a part! We are to fulfill the Great Commission together. There is absolutely no room in the Kingdom of God for manipulation, intimidation and domination.

  39. I just read most of Brent Detailer’s article, and I can honestly say I wish I hadn’t. Toward the end I started to pick up on what was about to unfold, so I began scrolling past those parts. Nonetheless, I still managed to read far more than I should have. It was incredibly disturbing and distressing.

    AFAIK I was never an abuse victim, so I don’t know why stuff like this is so triggering for me. My own mother *was* a victim, and, as a result, she instilled a sense of shame into her daughters, so maybe that’s why I have a hard time reading accounts like this. I don’t know. All I know is that this story makes me sick to my stomach.

    And they were all in on it — including the very pastors the victims went to for guidance. That is simply overwhelming.

  40. And the bizarre story going on at Driscoll’s church there close to where I grew up is getting traction with Julie Roys reporting on it. There are a lot of details listed there. As these white-washed septic tank men get older they just keep getting worse. Yet they appear to have no problem finding plenty of sheep to consume. What a sad state the American church is in…

  41. Max,

    Max, you are exactly correct.. In fact, taken in totality, the Bible portrays a very “flat” structure with how humans interact with each other… and everyone’s value…

  42. Hmm–when I read my Bible, it appears to me there are no laity. We are all a kingdom of priests. Did I miss something?

  43. Jeffrey J Chalmers: taken in totality, the Bible portrays a very “flat” structure with how humans interact with each other

    There are no earthly kings in the Kingdom of God; there are only citizens purchased with the blood of Jesus with equal rights and privileges. SBC’s New Calvinists have diminished long-standing Baptist doctrines of soul competency and priesthood of the believer in an effort to prevent gullible followers from knowing the truth about who they are (or can be) in Christ. In the NeoCal Kingdom, there is no “flat” structure … there is no “one” Body of Christ … there are rulers and the ruled. In the real Kingdom, ALL have equal access to God, ALL can hear God, ALL can be saved, ALL have a ministry.

  44. linda: when I read my Bible, it appears to me there are no laity. We are all a kingdom of priests

    Amen! You and I are on the same wavelength on this, Linda! As I remember, you are a Southern Baptist (or used to be). You probably remember the days when soul competency and priesthood of ‘the’ believer were common teachings in SBC ranks. The New Calvinists are now scurrying to make sure young folks don’t know that, while the boomers die off. You can’t control a whole church of priests!!

  45. Max: while the boomers die off.

    Have you noticed how often people think all of society’s problems will be solved after the boomers die off? This message has come from absolutely every direction since, oh, maybe 1951, when there was a sudden need for elementary schools.

    TOO BAD, SUCKAHS. YOU HAVE PROBLEMS OF YOUR VERY OWN.

    /capslock 😉

  46. Friend: Have you noticed how often people think all of society’s problems will be solved after the boomers die off?

    They’ll miss us when we are gone. We have a tremendous unappreciated reservoir of wisdom which the whippersnappers need (they just don’t know it … yet).

  47. Max: We have a tremendous unappreciated reservoir of wisdom which the whippersnappers need (they just don’t know it … yet).

    I’ll pass along a tip right now. That Polaris nuclear sub advertised in the comic book is not the real thing. You can tell because real nuclear subs cost more than $6.98.

    Wise up, kids!

  48. Max–I left the SBC in the dust and found another home of priesthood of the believer and free grace salvation. I got in trouble the first time going for a Baptist Doctrine Diploma back in the 1990’s. One of the books I had to read was “What Baptists Believe.” I had the old version, Herschell Hobbs. They gave me the new version and I gave them back that one, annotated, and showed them the HH version. Got my diploma but was persona non grata ever after.

  49. linda: “What Baptists Believe.” I had the old version, Herschell Hobbs.

    I have it in my library. In the current SBC dilemma, a better title would be “What Baptists ‘Should’ Believe.” Brother Hobbs was a good man – he spoke of the importance of soul competency and priesthood of ‘the’ believer as core truths for Baptist belief and practice. The New Calvinists tossed all that out when they came into the SBC like a flood. I suppose the new breed of SBC seminarians mock Brother Hobbs as an old fogy who didn’t understand things as he ought.

  50. Todd Wilhelm: Melinda Gates’ book is likely quite interesting. I am waiting for a book by Shannon Bonne to be published in the near future. Sources tell me Shannon will have much to say that will not endear her to the Sovereign Grace boyz.

    The whole SGM is rotten to the core. I have been around their people since it was TAG, before it was a church. Josh was chosen because he was one of the few that supported their “courtship” position.

    And to think that CJ was not even the big draw than…..Larry Tomchack and Che Ahn, the worship leader was. Larry published a book, Straightforward, I believe was the title. It was anti-dating, but no where as extreme as Josh Harris. It was introduced to the campus based Bible study I was a part of, and it was laughed out of the room. It even struck conservative Mennonites (Like Myself) as extreme, much less Josh Harris.who was even further out there. There is a joke in our circles, that choirs, summer Bible schools and conferences (Which are generally “love offering only”) are made to facilitate people meeting each other. While casual dating generally does not occur, people meet others, and many wind up “courting” people of similar values.

    (I went to an SGM men’s conference with a friend once…….One of the speakers was Brent Detwieler. IMHO he was the only HONEST one there)

    My answer to the SGM/Gothard types—–where else would you want to meet your future spouse?

    BTW CJ’s wife, Carole is from a Mennonite background……I don’t know how conservative.

  51. Herr Wilhelm,
    You could have done this whole article without the chuckling one’s (Mahaney) pic on the Marquee.
    Oh well, a good dose of Gershwin An American in Paris will chase those blues away right pronto…

  52. Ava Aaronson: Max: This has been going on in New Calvinism for years!

    Dreadful that “theology” backs up this behavior.

    Bestowing Cosmic-level Justification from Cosmic-level Authority.
    Whether that Cosmic-level Authority is Torah, Bible, Koran, Darwin, Marx, Freud, Nature…

  53. Max: Mahaney and other SGM leaders promoted themselves in the early days as a new generation of “Apostles”, with Mahaney referring to himself as the “Head Apostle.”

    “If you encounter a preacher who had titled himself ‘Prophet’ or ‘Apostle’ – RUN!”
    — my writing partner (the burned-out country preacher)

  54. Max–yep–agree. But what was even more telling for me was the new calvinist who told me they are the real Catholics, with a big C.

    In some ways, true words indeed.