“it is crystal clear that Abraham no longer believes in Christianity”
+++++++++++

i don’t think i do, either.

my beliefs regarding God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, well, that’s a different kettle of fish.

(and TWO CHOCOLATE CREAM PIES)

My opinion?
For the most part, Abraham Piper is as off the train tracks as his dad is.
Just in the opposite direction.

elastigirl: my beliefs regarding God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, well, that’s a different kettle of fish.

Same here, and by the way, I love a good old Wisconsin (Door County) fish boil.

“Mr. Piper’s pedigree is proof that ex-Christians should not be dismissed as people who were never really committed in the first place. “One of the common refrains is that these people were never Christian,” said Blake Chastain, who popularized the term “exvangelical” when he named his podcast in 2016. “But the people who leave over these issues are the people who took it seriously. They were the youth group kids who were on fire for God.”“

Joshua Harris comes to mind, as do the Ortbergs. One would hope that in the retellings over time of their backgrounds and of real issues that surfaced, they can also start seeing patterns of dysfunctional theology that exist and assign the same shortfall to those responsible rather than to God. That of course can be much easier said than done for many; it’s a matter for prayer and a matter for sunlight — and of course transparency, accountability, and oversight.

Speaking of sons, there’s this:

https://churchleaders.com/news/381472-this-is-a-mess-liberty-campus-pastor-admits-to-students.html

“On April 8, 2021, Liberty University announced that Jonathan Falwell, brother of Jerry Falwell, Jr., will replace David Nasser as campus pastor at the end of the semester. Falwell is currently the senior pastor of Thomas Road Baptist Church, which is affiliated with the college.”

The bigger story potentially is David Nasser evidently distancing himself from the situation:

“This has been one of the most difficult decisions we’ve ever had to make, but we do feel affirmed that God is asking for our obedience to step out of this role in ministry and into a whole new role in ministry elsewhere,” said David Nasser in a video announcement with his wife, Jennifer. “As your campus pastor, I can’t ask you week after week to be obedient and to go wherever (God) leads and then not model that very same thing in our own lives.”

“The Nassers are moving to Nashville, Tenn., to lead an “exciting, new” non-profit. They did not identify the non-profit by name, although Liberty’s announcement stated, “David Nasser is moving onto the next opportunities the Lord provided, using his voice on behalf of the most vulnerable, ministering on behalf of orphans and foster children.”

Right, so go from begin closely associated with Falwell Jr. for years — and what exactly has been done to change the culture or hold people accountable there, I’d like to know — to “using his voice on behalf of the most vulnerable”? Some students gave their thoughts on how he used his voice, as well as how certain situations were handled when the stuff on Falwell Junior was coming out:

https://slate.com/human-interest/2019/12/david-nasser-jerry-falwell-jr-liberty-university.html

”The Sunday after Politico’s reporting was published, Nasser called an impromptu all-campus worship service, to be held on the school’s outdoor ski slope as the sun set over the mountains. More than 4,000 students attended to sing and pray; Fox News quoted Nasser calling it “the essence of Liberty U.” One student described it as “very obviously a PR stunt, or a way to reduce the student uprising.” Many students came away from that worship service with the impression that Nasser would address the controversies directly in Convo the next week. But Wednesday’s service passed without a mention of the Politico article; instead, the singer Michael W. Smith performed.

“When I asked Nasser about the service on the ski slope, he said it had nothing to do with any controversy. “That was related to that moment, not related to the article,” he said. What moment? I wondered. “I feel like we, in the last three years, have been more and more seeing what I would call the wind of the Holy Spirit in our sails,” he said. “I feel like we’re on the cusp of a revival.”

“Nasser looked genuinely baffled when I asked him why he hadn’t mentioned the controversy to students. He had addressed it, he said, but in a deeper way than just rehashing the same old sordid details. As a pastor, “I’m going to talk to you about the root and not the fruit,” he said. “I’m much more interested in leveraging the moment to talk about: What do you do when accusations come your way? Or what do you do when someone is asking you these kind of questions?” He said “hundreds” of students contacted him by text or DM after the event, but most had questions unrelated to the article. In fact, the vast majority of conversations he has with students are about relationship issues, theological questions, or personal struggles—not politics. “Most of our students are thinking, Do girls think I look good in this shirt? How am I doing with my grades? How am I doing with my job applications?”

…

“”I’m always interested in understanding why a student feels unheard, or misunderstood,” Nasser told me. “I don’t think I’ve ever sat with a student and told them not to voice their opinion.” Then he emphasized again the importance of keeping conflict internal instead of airing it publicly. He echoed the same passage in Matthew that Micah Protzman said he quoted in their first meeting: “As a Christian, I should first go to my brother.” When it comes to his boss’s relationship to Liberty students, Nasser said, the most important thing is this: When Falwell Jr. runs into students in restaurants, he always picks up the tab.”“

JDV: they can also start seeing patterns of dysfunctional theology that exist and assign the same shortfall to those responsible rather than to God.

I don’t know who “they” are… maybe includes myself …

Admittedly, personally, being able to examine some of these “theologies” or “extra-biblical” stuff, as well as the celebs & glitz of chollywood, and the “big-shot” theologians, … yes, examine this stuff here among the faithful-not-naïve at TWW, is always eye-opening and refreshing. The journey becomes lighter: keeping the faith while discarding baggage.

After the Yoder post in the past, I’m still chafing over having to study Karl Barth in college. Not a good person, so no need for his theology or as some noted, eventual mind games that justified his despicable lifestyle. Hemingway, whatever. (Said he needed a new woman for each new book.) A theologian, what’s the point when they are philanderers. No point.

JDV: leveraging … accusations

Red flag combination

… he returned to the faith, and was welcomed back at the church in what his father has described as a “beautiful restoration service.”

linked: https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2012/marchweb-only/john-piper-racism-reconciliation.html (paywall)

context: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/12/us/abraham-piper-tiktok-exvangelical.html

What’s with the public set-up circa 2005? (Crabtree do this to their young too.)

John both adds to, and subtracts from, Scripture. What Abraham is now doing, is exactly faithful to and identical to what John does.

JDV,

With respect to the quotes from Nassar: Can I throw up now??

Both Pipers have made a fortune distorting truth. Getting on the extreme edge of the absurd with your faith or lack of it sells in America.

John Piper has been called the “Father of New Calvinism.” His aberrant belief and practice obviously didn’t work for this “Son of New Calvinism.” Whacko can pass from one generation to another when it’s a sickness of the soul.

I feel sincerely & profoundly sorry for anyone who grew up in the Piper household. Can you even imagine? I suspect his son has plenty of religious trauma, & is playing it out by doing the thing Pipers do, preach to an audience, but from opposing perspectives. I don’t begrudge him an audience through his Dad because of everything else he’s no doubt had to put up with, through his Dad.
I think Frank Schaeffer is different, because as people have said in this thread, his Dad/parents were very different & so he does not have the same fundamentalist cognitive patterns, or at least not to the same degree. You could disagree with Francis Schaeffer on many things, & he would still consider you a Christian. On many issues he believed the truth was somewhere in an area, not a single point. There’s a whole different flavour & a lot more love & mercy.
So many of these kids of famous Christians show the damage that comes with fame, look not only at Abraham & Franky, but at Sproul Jr, Jay Bakker & so on.

Besides which, this is TikTok.
The Chinese version of Video Twitter.
Hm. Like Father, like Son. Father on Twitter, Son on TikTok.

(Alongside all those teenage girls whose faces match TikTok’s algorithm of beauty nodding their heads to music and raking in all the hits and likes…)

John: Still he’s making the most of a following he would only get because of his Father’s fame. His audience is due to his Father. I still think it’s sad.

Bit tricky doing that given that he apparently never or at most very rarely mentions who is father is. The article states “He never mentions his lineage”. Someone else apparently linked two Pipers both from the Twin Cities together which led to the NYT article.

One of his businesses is apparently making high quality jigsaw puzzles.

Dee: this passage in the OP is quite a bit muddled “John Piper answers a question about unbelieving children
He has made quite a bit of money in the tech world.” Etc.
The headline should go after you finish talking about Abraham’s fortune and before the excerpt from my article. I made quite a bit in the Religion world, not the tech world. “Quite a bit”?? “Well off”?? LOL!! Abe’s well off?? Rich as Croesus is more like it. I’m a veritable pauper compared to him. Rumor has it I earned a relatively small pastoral salary, lived in a relatively modest home, and gave away most of my book earnings.
And, quite seriously, the article you referenced about unbelieving kids is pretty good— relatively speaking.

Ava Aaronson:
Once again, Dee, you hit it out of the ballpark; ’tis the season.

In a Tik Tok vid, Piper’s son pontificates from a visual arts (painting) studio. Frank Schaeffer, son of Evangelical Francis Schaeffer, also pontificates from his art studio.

So both may be visual artists (painters) & both pontificate about Evangelicalism, having been raised in the inner circle. Maybe the connections stop there. In any case, these are cursory impressions. As the Piper son said, not deep, at all. Just interesting to note. Public figures, from a distance & over the airwaves.

Both dads were/are short. Francis seemed a bit rugged; Rev. Piper not so much.

Their moms don’t seem alike, neither in aspect nor activities. Edith was diminutive, fashionable in Europe, and with proclivities for the arts, including opera. High brow tastes, but with a heart for young people from everywhere.

Moreover, son Frank Schaeffer’s tone is neither cynical nor laissez-faire. He apologizes for the damage of his father’s influence, where he believes his dad went wrong. Things matter to him, personally and deeply.

The Schaeffers seem empathetic. They are realistic about sexuality. They never encourage DV. They accepted LGBT young people at L’Abri. So, there’s that.

Nice in the USA with freedom of religion, pastors’ sons (celeb or whatever) practice their beliefs and enterpri$e$. Good on them.

I immediately thought of Frank Schaeffer too! LOL, great minds….

Pastor John: Rumor has it I earned a relatively small pastoral salary, lived in a relatively modest home, and gave away most of my book earnings.

(chuckle) … we’re on to you, Pastor John.

Samuel Conner: he did not find his father’s ‘Pleasures of God’ answer — that we can rejoice in the sufferings of the damned because those sufferings magnify God’s glory (and indeed were
determined for that purpose from before the creation of the world) — to be convincing

I expect nothing dismays God – Who wills that no-one should be lost – more. By degrees of, first belief, then relational integrity, we shall be Holy Spirit providence and help for each other (Who is sent at Ascension). God’s ordinances and decrees are permissive, unlike John’s.

I knew superiors that explicitly vaunted what obstacles to grace they were. I’ve shaken them off.

Erp: high quality jigsaw

Prominent Americans (copied by our “betters” everywhere) talk in jigsaws: the caricature of the meme, or the meme of the caricature.

Muff Potter: My opinion?
For the most part, Abraham Piper is as off the train tracks as his dad is.
Just in the opposite direction.

Both father and son think they know it all – either in a grim fundamentalist form or in a glib relativist/hedonist/skeptic sort of way. The young Piper might be smart to make all that money in the tech world but he didn’t seem to say much that is profound – just (understandably) reacting against a toxic form of religion. But just reacting against things is as empty as fundamentalist certitude.

Bridget: Although I don’t know Abraham’s reason for doing the video’s, it seems it would be hurtful to his parents even if he doesn’t mention his father. Maybe therapy would better help Abraham deal with the issues he is dealing with, and bring him some peace. I personally believe that children brought up in similar circumstances have a hard time maturing in many areas.

Piper senior brought his family into the world of fame and “look at us”. Saying his son should not engage is just basically saying the the elder was right about everything and the son wrong.

I and Dee both know families in evangelical churches where the kids split harder than the Pipers. And many were families that the congregations were told they should emulate as the parents were “doing it right”. And other families emulating them the kids would grow up to be great Christians. I haven’t asked her specifically but I’m betting the reason there are no posts about these people is because they are still basically private family matters. No interviews on national TV or book tours or whatever. So their family business is basically theirs.

The Pipers, and the Royals, and others decided long ago to live their family lives on the front pages of the news. And anyone saying critics of them should not do the same is, well, in my strong opinion spouting nonsense.

And yes, this comment is a bit strong and Dee may delete it on me.

I’m not exactly sure what you are saying, or what you think I’m saying.

If it involves the quote below. I’m not sure why you might think I’m criticizing Dee’s article.

I’m more concerned about Abraham’s well being coming out of the crazy environment he was brought up in. I think that it might be better for him to seek therapy than to make these crazy videos that make him sound more like his father than he may realize.

NC Now: And anyone saying critics of them should not do the same is, well, in my strong opinion spouting nonsense.

While I do find myself in the camp of that they’re both kind of obnoxious in remarkably similar ways,

John Piper on being asked if he would attend a family member or child’s same-sex wedding:

Five, I wouldn’t go because the weight of sorrow and love and revulsion would probably overwhelm me. I don’t think I could probably get through the ceremony.

And the last thing I would say is: My not going is not my drawing away from my child — but his drawing away from me. I am where I have always been: arms wide open to the home-coming prodigal, ready to forgive anything.

https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/would-you-attend-a-gay-wedding

I’d agree that Abraham denigrating his father’s ministry in a public way is pretty crass, but then again I could see being set off by the scene from Barnabas’s wedding.

Ruth Tucker: When are you going to write a MEMOIR??? I love to hear stories like yours!!! Truly, your story is amazing!

Same question, same comment. Yes, your story, Dee, is inspiring, & the most interesting part of this post.

I kind of get Piper the Young. The Bible stories… that’s I quit bible study. Couldn’t make it work.

Both Piper’s speak to the lowest common denominator. Literalism.

With the bible stripped of any context, God is either John Piper’s Monster or Abraham Piper’s fool.

Catholic Gate-Crasher: We can’t absolutely *control* our kids. Nor should we. Our children aren’t extensions of us, like extra appendages. They are their own persons. Unique, separate individuals. Profoundly influenced by us — for good or for ill — but ultimately their own human beings. They have free will. They make their own choices and decisions.

A lot of New Calvinists I know have a very prosperity gospel view of God, though they’d rather jump in the lake of fire than admit it. Despite all their theology about strict predestination, they seem to believe that if they stay in the right and narrow, their kids will, too. And then it destroys them when they don’t.

My first New Cal professor even admitted he believed that election was familial when the father maintains the “faith” (which he really defined as works).

Honestly, their views on forced church membership fall right in line with this problematic thinking. If people aren’t really elect, then why keep forcing them to go to church? Though, I can’t help but wonder if deep-down, they know their theology is so spiritually bankrupt that they wouldn’t be getting the $$$ if they didn’t force people to stay once they figure it out.

Bridget: it seems it would be hurtful to his parents even if he doesn’t mention his father.

Maybe he’s trying to undo some damage that his father has caused, or at least distance himself from it, and let quiet questioners in his father’s orbit know that they are not alone.

ishy: A lot of New Calvinists I know have a very prosperity gospel view of God, though they’d rather jump in the lake of fire than admit it.

I understand you can trace Prosperity Gospel to Calvinism. That it started with the Puritans looking for assurance of their personal Salvation and Predestined Election in the face of Evanescent Grace and God sending False Assurance of Salvation to the Reprobate.

Today this expresses itself with More Perfectly Parsed Theology Than Thou, but back then the proof was “material blessings”, i.e. that if you were rich, it was proof that you were Elect because God was blessing you with wealth.

Catholic Gate-Crasher: We can’t absolutely *control* our kids. Nor should we. Our children aren’t extensions of us, like extra appendages.

Didn’t Douggie ESQUIRE of Vision Forum have something about a 200-year plan controlling your dynasty (including “estates and descendants”)? I mean planning your Dynastic House out in detail for two centuries like some Tywin Lannister?

Bridget: I’ve thought of that as well, which may be what Abraham is doing. The problem with what I see, though, is that there seems no middle for Abraham. It’s either his father’s version or his version, without the myriad of in between theology options/beliefs.

I see it too, and it’s not just this thread, you’ll find it everywhere, it’s gotta’ be the whole Enchilada or nothin’.

Headless Unicorn Guy: the proof was “material blessings”

Evangelism, IOW, “Look at us.”

Samuel Conner,

One of the few things that I agree with from John is that David Bentley Hart is certainly a heretic. You speak of the man as if he is some kind of great godly theologian except he is not. He is just as arrogant as anyone else we have covered and very rude to boot. He exceeds John in these points and we go after him for this very reason. Hart is a member of the same elite establishment and teaches things which are simply not true, just in a different kind of extreme. The scriptures nowhere teach Universalism but Hart has gotten even more famous and richer by selling this crack to God’s kids. I think DBH’s evil exceeds that of John’s and Abrahams too.

Neither man practices orthopraxy which begins with humility, follows through with not promoting yourself and ends with fearing God too much to make up b.s. to $ell to God’s flock. Both are bright and gifted but have not been responsible with those gifts.

Muff Potter: I see it too, and it’s not just this thread, you’ll find it everywhere, it’s gotta’ be the whole Enchilada or nothin’.

Yep. IMHO y’all are absolutely right. It’s everywhere. From one polar extreme to the other. No middle ground. No moderation. I guess it’s understandable, but it sure is disheartening.

Ghosting a false religion, perhaps?
hmmm…
More and more people are rejecting Calvinism as a religious way of life. They have come to view the profound absurdity of its ri•dic•u•lous propositions, and seek to avoid it where ever possible, understanding that those trapped within its confines are in desperate need of earnest prayer.

Inter Mission,
OPEN SOURCE ORCHESTRA Berlin – Perry Mason theme
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEAYakg0m_A

John,

Christianity has caused me horrific pain. It ruined my childhood and life. It ruined my mother’s life. It is disgusting how Christians want the right to push their toxic preferences on children and people who don’t want it and we cant respond to it.

I was sexually abused as a little girl by a bible quoting church going Christian man. My parents brainwashed me to believe that bible god and Jesus loved me, answered prayers, and had power. They never answered my prayers not to be raped again. It kept happening.

Can you imagine how damaging it is to be a kid knowing god is watching you get raped and wont stop it when you keep begging him to and when it would be so easy for him to?

I should have never been taught to pray or brainwashed in the Sunday school children’s song Jesus Loves Me. Never.

My thoughts were god is obviously pro little girl rape, is on the rapist side, and likes watching. I had the sickest feelings towards bible god and thought he was every bit as gross as the man hurting me.

Let me guess. You think there is a good excuse to sit on your bottom and watch a child be repeatedly raped? Christians excuses for why it is okay for bible god to watch children live in sex slavery are morally and intellectually bankrupt.

Then my family told me to read the bible and I would feel better. Reading the bible as a girl who was sexually abused and wasn’t a virgin any more was like pouring gasoline in an open wound and setting it on fire. The bible preached hatred against me for not being a virgin. I wasn’t as good as virgins and the bible was pure concentrated misogyny.

I was born in hate and slavery because I was born in Christianity. I was suppose to marry a Christian man and become his trapped slave. All the men in my family trash talked women and girls my whole childhood. I hated my self and wished my mother had aborted me. I hated my self and wanted to die because of the bible. I have been suicidal since age 11.

We have every right to leave the toxic excruciating misery that is Christianity and speak out against it and tell our stories of how it made our lives a living hell.

Christians want to tell their side of the story but their victims have to take it with a smile on their faces and keep their mouths shut.

I believe teaching children Christianity is child abuse. If my parents and other Christians can use Christianity to hurt me then I can use tell the world Christianity hurt me and my parents used it to hurt me.

The bible hurt me.
Bible god hurt me.
Christians hurt me.

It isn’t just me.

Christians thinking they should be able to hurt people and people have to kiss their bottoms in return is sadistic, spoiled, and selfish. John Piper’s son isn’t doing anything wrong. John Piper did something wrong and does so every day of his selfish sadistic life.

In Christianity it is totally okay for parents to hurt their small children but these children can not grow up and respond to it.

Bridget: It’s either his father’s version or his version, without the myriad of in between theology options/beliefs.

As I noted upstream: “Both Pipers have made a fortune distorting truth. Getting on the extreme edge of the absurd with your faith or lack of it sells in America.” They know what they are doing – they are chuckling all the way to the bank.

Amanda Farmer,

Brava!!!! Love that analysis.

Yes, it makes sense that many Calvinists would reject a toxic faith.

IMHO that’s why most of Boston’s former (Calvinist) Congregational churches are now Unitarian Universalist. You can’t go on believing in a Monster God for too long before you snap.

http://www.christianitydaily.com/articles/11448/20210410/paul-maxwell-former-writer-at-desiring-god-announces-he-s-no-longer-a-christian.htm

Maxwell’s recent book,

“The Trauma of Doctrine: New Calvinism, Religious Abuse, and the Experience of God,” delves into the “effects of abuse trauma” that a Christian can experience when faced with Calvinist belief.

Unfortunately, I watched this happen up close.

Max: As I noted upstream: “Both Pipers have made a fortune distorting truth. Getting on the extreme edge of the absurd with your faith or lack of it sells in America.” They know what they are doing – they are chuckling all the way to the bank.

As noted in Dee’s article, Abraham made quite a bit of money on his own, apart from his religious views. His videos may be bringing him exposure, fame, or something else but it doesn’t seem like money is a motivating factor.

Amanda Farmer: First, the overall problem with the Calvinistic viewpoint, as I see it, is that the premise from which the whole doctrine is built on is faulty. I do agree that “God is God” and “God can do whatever he wants.” I also agree that if God decides to save some and send others to hell that is his prerogative but who does that make God into? Why would a loving God make creatures with the whole purpose of throwing most in hell and selecting some for heaven?

I agree. If their theology reserved hell for maybe certain really “evil” categories and nothinginess for the rest, their theology would make more sense. A lot of Calvinists I know just insist that this is loving and won’t really think or converse about what this means. “Because God” is not a good enough answer.

A lot of New Calvinists I know seem to think that God has to do these things and is incapable of giving other creatures free will. Which makes God less powerful than they want to insist he is. I once pointed this out to a New Cal arguing with me and he just kept repeating over and over that free will couldn’t exist if God was powerful. It was completely illogical.

JDV:
“Mr. Piper’s pedigree is proof that ex-Christians should not be dismissed as people who were never really committed in the first place. “One of the common refrains is that these people were never Christian,” said Blake Chastain, who popularized the term “exvangelical” when he named his podcast in 2016. “But the people who leave over these issues are the people who took it seriously. They were the youth group kids who were on fire for God.”“

Joshua Harris comes to mind, as do the Ortbergs. One would hope that in the retellings over time of their backgrounds and of real issues that surfaced, they can also start seeing patterns of dysfunctional and defective theology that exist and assign the same shortfall to those responsible rather than to God. That of course can be much easier said than done for many; it’s a matter for prayer and a matter for sunlight — and of course transparency, accountability, and oversight.

And I believe we’re seeing even more effects of dysfunctional and effective theology in emerge as people evaluate their experiences, with troubling to terrible consequences all around.

Headless Unicorn Guy,

In case you weren’t aware, you started a rather wondrous discussion of potatoes over on the Sabbaticals post. 🙂

Christianity HURTS children,

I am so unbelievably sorry that this was done to you. I understand full well why some people reject a faith that has done nothing but hurt them.

I hope you know you’re on a page full of people who would have tried to help you as a child if they could, & believe that not helping you was appallingly wicked.

Dee’s aim with her page is to make sure that child abuse victims of/in the church are heard, believed & cared for, & that abusers are properly prosecuted & punished.

It has been reported that Liberty U is suing Falwell Jr for millions…

BeakerN: I have definitely been traumatised by that belief system, to the point where I won’t read his book, but it is interesting that he’s published this.

Can’t blame you there. Hope you’ve recovered now.

BeakerN: I’m sure the Dudebros are giving him a good kicking behind the scenes.

Well, since he’s left the cult, I don’t think the Dudebros have much influence over him anymore. That’s the good thing about getting out.

Headless Unicorn Guy,
And in the words of the prophets Jib & Jab:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Q2EPKKVrqI

Friend: Headless Unicorn Guy: We’re all Bozos on this Bus.

Ha! Long time since I heard that album.

I actually discovered Firesign Theater when I first got cable in the Eighties and music videos were actually short musical movies. Night Flight used to play a couple Firesign Theater movies – actual movies – after midnight on Fridays.

I’ve got a copy of one of them – J-Men Forever!, a parody of Thirties Pulp using mashed-up footage from Forties movie serials – but have never been able to find a copy of the other: Nick Danger and the Case of the Missing Yolk. The only parts of it I’ve been able to find are online copies of the two fake commercial breaks: “Boobie Chew” and “Rat-In-a-Box”.

Amanda Farmer: One Sunday morning while watching a video, Mr. Piper, was talking about how everything is pre-determined in life and that we are just nails being used by the hammer of God. “

If it’s all pre determined then churches, missions and worship is a complete waste of time.

Stay home Sunday, save 10%.

Amanda Farmer: I don’t have to wonder why Paul Maxwell, Abraham Piper, Joshua Harris, Marty Sampson and others are angry and confused. They have finally realized that the teachings they have been exposed to are false and unworkable for a life of faith that is meaningful.

I have said for years that when the New Calvinism bubble breaks (it will), that a great multitude of Piperites will be left disillusioned and confused. They may never venture into faith again. Whose plan would that be?

Amanda Farmer,
Christianity HURTS children,

Yes it IS the man himself AND all his toadies. (Trigger words follow.)

“You Too Can Have Paroxysms (TM) Without Oral Roberts Kissing Goodbye To Your Every Ten Dollars And Without Bill Johnson Digging Your Great Grandmother Out Of The Cemetery Because I John Piper (TM) And None Other But Me (TM) Am Vetoing (TM) All Christians Ever Having Holy Spirit Holy Spirit Gifts”.

I reacted against Abraham’s face, also he is too old for a pink hat. I am devastated that the IVP has got itself mixed up in this.

As to the real God’s decrees and ordinances they are permissive. It’s a logical fallacy – coming from Piper a lie – that conditional predetermination concerning specifics conflicted in the slightest with what free will we and others come to have. If we want assurance then our degrees of inference are adequate, like J H Newman said.

Christianity HURTS children,

You have suffered so much, and I am sorry.

Child sexual abuse is evil. Twisting that child’s own beliefs to gain even more power, and to justify and hide the abuse, is even worse—not because it defames a religion, but because it manipulates the mind and makes recovery harder.

Belief is completely voluntary, and you have made the right choice for yourself. You have a clear and strong voice. I hope you will continue to speak out, and also to heal.

I was also abused in church and family settings, although not to so grave an extent. My own belief is that Christians need to do far more about earthly justice, instead of waiting for God to make it all right in the hereafter.

Max: suffers

Assuming that people raised in an abusive environment do suffer, do you think it’s understandable that they use the same tactics against their former tribe, at least while they are recovering?

I don’t have a right answer in mind, just a few tendencies that many of us have probably observed. Survivors don’t always behave in attractive ways. Some cannot, because of damage. Some cannot, because of limited skill. Some could, but they figure that turnabout is fair play.

People who are struggling don’t owe the rest of us a calm, pulled-together presentation. What of those who have gained some distance and perspective? Do they achieve anything by serving as… hmmm… anger translators?

Friend: do you think it’s understandable that they use the same tactics against their former tribe

If you don’t push back at least in ways similar to the message that was used against you, you are now allowing the problem to spread with no opposing message.

“As Far As You Get Slammed?”
hmmm__
John Calvin had no clue that Augustine was crackers. What does that make John Piper and his > del•e•te•ri•ous proverbial follower Cubs?

Inter Mission,
It’s all mixed up?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFXsdQb35Io

NC Now: If you don’t push back at least in ways similar to the message that was used against you, you are now allowing the problem to spread with no opposing message.

If people have the strength (a big if), I agree that they should think about countering the teachings in some way. The tribe will try to screen out the contrary messages, though. They might end up sharing insights with others who have left. People who feel trapped might silently receive helpful affirmation.

Max: I have said for years that when the New Calvinism bubble breaks (it will), that a great multitude of Piperites will be left disillusioned and confused. They may never venture into faith again. Whose plan would that be?

Some of them will convert to fundamental atheism, a shtick every bit as brutal and restrictive as the heavy-handed fundagelicalism they fled.

Headless Unicorn Guy,

Muff Potter,

Anger and hatred are certainly awful to deal with. Certainly some atheists have written books and gone on tour. Everybody with an axe to grind can post on social media.

Still, atheism is not nearly as organized as theism is. Furry Fandom does meet up (or did in the Before Times); I dearly hope that Rabid Furry-Haters are not holding conferences.

I’ve been reading Dave Hunt’s book “What Love Is This? Calvinism’s Misrepresentation of God” (Hunt, now deceased, was a Christian apologist from the IFB camp who openly opposed Calvinism). The title of his book is a rhetorical question he asks throughout the book when wondering how Calvinists can teach that God “loves” those who aren’t part of “the elect”.

Given Piper’s teaching (which Hunt described as similar to the fatalism found in Islam, and further describes as repugnant to the human conscience; he states that it is no wonder atheists consider Calvin’s god a monster), sadly I’m not surprised that his son has totally rejected Christianity for atheism. In discussing the P of TULIP, Hunt notes that even though Calvinists stress that only God can do the first four points, they turn around and argue that the last point requires a great deal of human effort, so much so that nearly every major Calvinist has had serious doubts about his faith (Sproul is mentioned; it is not surprising that like Piper, his own son is a washout as well).

I don’t completely agree with you or John. We are all entitled to our own opinions. What I quoted below is ‘your’ opinion, not fact. John is entitled to his.

Early Subscriber: this is all Abraham being interesting, smart, well read, funny, and generally entertaining.

Mark R: nearly every major Calvinist has had serious doubts about his faith

As they should! When you limit the atonement of Christ for ALL people, you stand on dangerous ground.

Max,

This is not accurate. Both Pipers have made a lot of money, John through book sales, Abraham is a media entrepreneur. John Piper gives away most of his book royalties, that’s an easily corroborated fact, and Abraham’s TikTok ‘career’ started a mere 5 months ago, he may not even be in the creators fund yet. If he does join the creators fund, the small amount of money he will make on TikTok is throw away pocket change compared to what he earns in the real world. He is not in it for the money and neither is his father. Whatever feelings anyone has for these men there is nothing to suggest that they’re motivated by greed.

Early Subscriber: Whatever feelings anyone has for these men there is nothing to suggest that they’re motivated by greed.

What motivates them?

Max: What motivates them?

The same zeal that motivated the Crusaders to slaughter Jews and Muslims.
Even though it’s to a much lesser degree, it’s roots are still the same.

Max: What motivates them?

He’s also on TikTok to promote his puzzle business, Blue Kazoo. That’s the only business venture he ever mentions. If you didn’t know who he is in the business world or who his father is, you would not learn those things from him on TikTok. People do ask in comments but he doesn’t talk about it there either. I don’t see that his father has the right to expect any more than that from his fully grown son.

Early Subscriber: I would say John Piper is motivated by his desire to save souls.

According to Piper’s theology, there’s not anything he can do to effect the salvation of a soul. God already predetermined the saved or damned destiny for us all in eternity past.

Early Subscriber: Abraham Piper … turned a small personal blog … into a multimillion dollar media company … a success

He can also count it a success to have distanced himself from Daddy. Whew!

Friend:
Early Subscriber,

I’ve appreciated your insights about this. In general, a lot of Christians (of whom I am one) are not used to snark or hostility directed at Christianity and Christians. We sometimes forget how dismissive and angry Christians often sound.

I would say, though, that John Piper has a lot of influence and perhaps some power as well. Maybe he enjoys keeping and increasing those things.

Warren Buffett lives in a 5-bedroom house he bought in 1958, yet he has gobs of money and influence. People can do things unevenly.

I’m sure John Piper does want to influence people. He’s upfront about that, it’s his whole gig. I don’t think either one of them has an underhanded or ulterior motive for the work they do. In fact, I would say they’re both decent, honest men with profoundly different points of view. Of the two, I definitely align with Abraham but a few people who are very important to me are big Desiring God adherents who feel Abraham should keep his mouth shut. They’re basing that opinion solely on the hullabaloo being created by the Christian media’s coverage and sudden interest in his TikTok account, not on their own experience of his content. He doesn’t mock Christianity or his father, and he doesn’t demean Christians. Criticism is not mockery. Believing differently than your parents is not disrespectful. It’s clear that he, as an adult, feels differently than his parents but he doesn’t mention them at all, doesn’t mention his family of origin at all. The discussion is general not specific and that’s intentional. He’s intentionally leaving out the personal details and keeping the topic open to all, not gossiping about his family. That, to me, shows his intention with the religious videos; he knows there are tens of thousands of people who feel throttled, rejected, and even abused by fundamentalist Christian churches and beliefs. He’s one of them, he identifies with them and they (including me even though my background is RC not evangelical) identify with him and his journey. His religious videos are for us, not for those who are still attached to fundamentalist churches. He is not required to shut up about his experiences, our experiences, because some Christians don’t want to hear any criticism. He ends one video about this topic by looking right into the camera and saying “You’re alright.” Doesn’t sound like much but I sure choked right up hearing it. The fact that his father is a well known pastor with a huge audience likely complicates things for him but if he intended to mock or be openly disrespectful to his father he’s doing a poor job of it. Several of the videos he’s put out since the Times article have me wondering if that article was akin to a hornets nest being kicked in the Piper family. Still, nothing specific, nothing about his family or the article, or his father, just his thoughts on how he handles being misunderstood, on not being particularly aware of the emotional impact of his actions on the people around him, on what it means to be called “over emotional,” on feeling uninspired. I don’t know if that’s happening but it could be. Anyway… what I’ve said to my Desiring God friends who are up in arms is, go watch his videos. Start at the beginning and watch, they’re a minute or less. Try not to be so damn sensitive about your beliefs and pretend you don’t know who his father is. If he were there to mock John Piper that’s what he’d be doing, mocking him, talking about him, making fun of him, he doesn’t do that at all. His beef is with the small segment of Christendom that behaves as if it’s the only voice that’s real and everyone better toe their line or else. His father is part of that world but he doesn’t go after his father even though he easily could. Personally, his videos on the weirdness of the English language are my favorites. He’s entertaining, smart as a whip, hugely successful, with a 17 year marriage and 4 kids. His father should be proud of him. And the fundies who are losing their minds need to relax a little. Go bowling.

Early Subscriber: Being an evangelical Calvinist seems paradoxical to me.

There’s nothing evangelizing about New Calvinists, like Piper. Their gospel is another gospel which is not ‘the’ Gospel. The new reformers put their faith in doctrinal propositions about grace rather than a direct experience of Grace, an encounter with the living Christ. They don’t lead folks to Jesus since many have not made that journey themselves, IMHO.

Bridget: I hope he has distanced himself from his father’s theology. I hope he still manages a relationship with his mom and dad.

Indeed. Theology should never separate families, it just ain’t worth it. However, if abuse has its origin in one’s theology (e.g., complementarian bondage of women, using the rod to beat a kid, indoctrination to the point of mentally snapping), it would be best to maintain a healthy distance (phone calls, go home only at Christmas, etc.).

Max,

Totally agree.

At this point all the Piper kids are adults and don’t have to put up with their parents’ theology. They can choose for themselves, as can any adult child.

Christianity HURTS children,

I, too, dealt with sexual abuse as a child, and got little to no help from the church. But I got a lot of help from the Bible. For example, my reading of the story of Onan has always been that God stepped in to kill Onan because he was raping Tamar. Tamar wanted a child, and after the first time, she didn’t want to have sex with Onan. Men have so ignored Tamar’s presence they use that passage to condemn masturbation! They argue that God killed Onan either for failing to do his family duty — (although no one else did it either, and Onan is the only one killed), or for “wasting his seed.” Neither of these crimes carry the death penalty; neither of them carry a serious penalty at all. The man who refuses to do this duty for his dead brother gets spit on and slapped with a sandal, while the man who masturbates — like the man who has sex — is made unclean for a day.

Onan married Tamar under false pretenses, making the marriage illegitimate, so God treated Onan as he would a man who raped a single woman, and served him with the death penalty.

God not only put the death penalty on rape, he told husbands and fiancés that a woman who was raped “is like a man murdered,” (Deut. 22:26), and must not be punished for what has happened to her. The church and society have long reversed this, of course, making the woman the guilty one. The only man who can escape the death penalty is a man who rapes a single woman; he is either sold as a slave, pays the price of an adult male slave (as a comparison, at the time of the Civil War an adult male slave cost about seven and a half pounds of gold), or becomes her father’s slave if she wishes to marry him.

In other words, a man who enslaves a woman to his will for a short time through rape is to be made a slave, either symbolically or actually. This exception gives the woman an income if she choses not to marry, or a very generous ketubah if she marries. In the times of Moses, a married woman had her own money (the ketubah), which she brought into the marriage, and which she could take out. Women who did not have money and were taken as wives were concubines, which is a type of slave wife, however they had rights that regular slaves did not. The Jews of Jesus’ time, who paid attention to what God actually said, punished married men for raping their wives; plenty of Christian men of our own time haven’t figured out yet that marital rape is even possible.

While we are on earth, God allows us the freedom to follow him, and the freedom to ignore his commands. Christians in the antebellum era ignored God’s law that kidnapping someone and enslaving them carries the death penalty (Deuteronomy 24:7, Exodus 21:16, 1 Tim. 1:10). He sent plenty of warnings that people needed to straighten up or they’d suffer, and we did. The Civil War remains the bloodiest war with the most deaths of any war the US has been involved in. But even those who escaped that cultural consequence would one day stand before the Great Judge and have to face their own sins. There is no escape, not for us, and not for those who have wrong us.

While they’ve finally gotten it mostly right on slavery, Christians today still ignore many, many passages demonstrating that their treatment of women is wrong. There’ll be a time when God takes some vengeance for that, as well, either in this life or the next. When people choose to sin against us, that’s not on God. That’s on man. God allows sin for the sake of freedom, but God is both love and justice — he will repay. (Deut. 32:35, 41 & 43; Nahum 1:2; Romans 12:19; and dozens of others).

God never promised he would keep us safe. God allowed his own son to suffer and die on a cross; die a shameful, brutal, and horrific death — and Jesus warns Christians that they will be treated even worse. God does promise to be with us, and he promises us justice in the end. But he certainly doesn’t promise us justice in this world. Consider how Christian men — those who claim to represent God — have twisted the story of David and Bathsheba. God makes it clear that Bathsheba was an innocent raped — the story Nathan tells David is about an innocent EWE (female) lamb, and Nathan warns that God has declared “what you have done secretly, I will do in the sun,” referring to Absolom’s rape of David’s wives. Yet Christian men through the ages have turned Bathsheba into a temptress.

Don’t blame God for what man does, and don’t let men like that color your own reading of the Bible. Feminists who see the Bible through that male lens will go on and on about how God sees women as unclean based on the fact that menstrual blood makes things unclean. But the fact is, God treats semen the same way. It makes the man unclean, and it makes anyone who touches it unclean. Under Mosaic law, both men and women secret substances that make people ritually unclean; the fact that men who claim to represent God will hyperfocus on female uncleanness says nothing about what God really does or said.

Christianity HURTS children,

I totally agree with this. The kind of religion that John Piper espouses is extremely harmful, in my opinion, and I think it’s perfectly natural that his son feels this way, and also feels the need to express himself publicly. For better or worse, social media has made this normal. After growing up with a father like Piper, I wouldn’t be surprised if being able to be loud about your “heretical” opinions is very therapeutic for Abraham.

Perhaps he will express himself differently in future, or moderate his views. But I find it perfectly understandable that someone who has grown up evangelical would find his lack of faith to be as big a part of life as his faith was. And while it’s disappointing for Christians to see a young man leave the faith entirely, I think it’s a bit odd to criticise him for expressing himself about it.