The Abusive Responses of Dan Herron, Formerly of Hope Presbyterian Church, and the Central Indiana Presbytery In Addressing the Concerns of Abuse by Kara Million and Others.

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Woman Looking Away

“Concerning the narcissist- after having been so seemingly incredibly loving and gentle, compassionate and caring- it would be like a light switch had suddenly been turned off and “all of a sudden” they simply did not care. They turned into a cold person, someone without love, compassion, empathy or regard for the subject’s feelings what so ever. It’s like they suddenly and literally stopped being human.” ― Jacqueline Servantess


What I am about to say is something that will be understood by most women and quite a few men as well. All of you remember being *checked out* by some guy. You know what I’m talking about. You are introduced to your new boss and he checks out your backside. What about the guy at the car wash who spends more time focusing on your chest are than on your credit card.? Then there is the professor who gets that grin on his face when you answer a question and exclaims “Brilliant observation!” and asks you to stay after class to discuss your *incredible* perceptions. I still remember a hospital that I worked at in which you would have to check in each morning and be given a pager to register. One infamous pager was the one that landed in the pool with a physician who got pushed in due to his unwelcome advances. One amusing *assigner of the pagers* * would point it out if you got *that* pager which was dried out and fixed by the hospital.

How many of you were warned about *that guy in accounting* who hit on all the women in the office? One complaint from one person should be enough. What if it was more than one person? Then maybe they will listen? Why do we need more than one woman to be heard? And what if having more than one woman complain isn’t enough?

Kara’s Story

The story I am about to tell is about one woman who represents other women who believed that the lead pastor in their church was involved in sexually inappropriate actions. No, this isn’t about a woman who got raped. It is about several women who became so incensed about his actions that they went to the presbytery who let him off the hook.

Kara Million first wrote her story for CBE International’s blog on12/9/20. Male Headship Wasn’t a Big Deal—Until I was Sexually Harassed by My Pastor

Kara is a PhD candidate in biology which is no small feat. Her husband was finishing seminary and had an internship at a church plant. That church, Hope Presbyterian Church in Bloomington, Indiana, is a PCA church and is a member…wait for it…The Gospel Coalition. So what transpired at this church and with this pastor will not be a surprise to readers at TWW.

In Kara’s story for CBE, she gives an overview of her situation. In typical *complementarian* style the pastor, Dan Herron, gave typical lip service of *honoring women. Women, do any of you feel” talked down to” when your pastor claims he *honors women?* Especially when his actions and the actions of the church appear to demonstrate that men run the show and don’t need women giving them input? I know I used to feel that way.

In the CBE story:

The pastor began harassing me when he set up a one-on-one meeting with me out of the blue to “catch up.” During the meeting he verbally abused me and used his body to intimidate me. Then he displayed flirtatious behavior and solicited an intimate “mentoring relationship” with me. Once the pastor realized I would not accept his advances, he began showing up unexpectedly at events, leering at me, cornering me in small spaces, and making unwanted physical contact.

When I avoided him, he went behind my back to my husband and urged him to intervene and make me more receptive to him. When my husband refused, the pastor bullied him at his job, targeted me from the pulpit, and made negative insinuations about my character and mental health.

The church’s provisional session informed my husband that they were well aware of the perpetrator’s “pastoral shortcomings,” but that they believed it was “God’s will” that he remain pastor of the church. One elder even commented that the pastor was a “good-looking guy,” and that women were always looking at him in public. “These sorts of things simply happen to good-looking guys in ministry,” he said. We left the church broken and traumatized.

… Several other former church members shared their experiences of bullying and sexual harassment at the hands of this pastor. I learned that the pastor had made inappropriate comments to other men in the congregation about women (including female church members).

Kara and Abigail contacted the Central Indiana Presbytery for help but to no avail.

Kara and her husband left the church. However, Kara and another woman who had untoward experiences with the pastor decided to write their presbytery about their experience. As time passed, more women would come forward to speak of their own experiences. Their former church was not yet *particularized* which means they didn’t have their own session of elders. That is why they had to go to the presbytery which had the authority to deal with their concerns.

This process lasted for eight months which is indicative of the snail-like responses in many denominations. Of course, the initial response of the presbytery was one of empathy. As time would soon prove, empathy got dumped when it came to dealing with one of those *icky women’s issues.” Things would become tense. Their former pastor preached a sermon about “haters” and “false accusers.” It sounds sadly like my former church which helped to birth this blog.

Although the women asked that their identities be kept anonymous, they would learn that the pastor guessed who they were quite quickly. This caused me to think that he knew whom he had allegedly abused. (I believe the women but use the word *allegedly in case lawyers are looking in.) In the end, nothing really happened with the presbytery which is demonstrative of the general ineffectiveness of presbyteries in dealing with sex abuse, molestation, and abuse.

When the commission finally reached a decision, they told us they believed our claims, but that “a man’s livelihood and vocation are on the line,” and it would be an “injustice” for him to lose his job over this. The presbytery voted not to bring any charges against him; instead, they voted to pay for counseling and sensitivity training for him. No care or counseling was offered to the victims.

To make matters worse, the presbytery appeared positively brain dead when they pulled antics like this.

We were horrified to learn that the meetings would take place at the church where much of the abuse had occurred.

Who knew this PCA church could use phrases like my old Reformed Baptist church. When that church learned early on of the actions of an SEBTS seminary student, they couldn’t quite believe it and claimed that he was simply exhibiting *locker room humor.” (He went to prison for 13 years.) Look what this presbytery told the women.

some commission members dismissed the abuse I suffered to my face as “locker room bravado” and “seventh grade playfulness.”

Good night! Do they go to conferences to learn this nonsense? However, it’s phrases like this that cause me to fully buy into Kara’s narrative.

Dan Herron’s 18-page rebuttal (Yes, I read the whole thing.)

Do you want to understand what kind of pastor Dan Herron was? Character is best demonstrated in times of duress. You know the scenario. A soldier puts himself into the line of fire to save the life of his fellow soldier. I keep hearing about pastors who claimed that they were *called by God* to the pastorate. I know a couple of pastors like this. However, I have also seen some horrific examples of the actions of those who would swear that they were called by God yet act and speak as if they were Michael Corleone ordering a hit on his brother, Fredo. Think I’m exaggerating? One can kill his brother or sister with a gun or with words.

I was provided with a copy of the letter that Herron wrote to the Central Indiana Presbytery. This is an eye-opening letter that speaks to the character of Herron. A real pastor, one called by God, would exhibit love, grace, repentance, and a desire for reconciliation. Such a pastor would speak to the pain of the women who were so concerned that they sought help outside of the local church. As you will see, Herron was not that sort of man.

I will be calling out sections of this letter and evaluating his words through the lens of one who understands abuse. It is the longest letter of the sort that I have ever read. In the end, I couldn’t take anymore.

He declares he knows motives and says the women immature and divisive.

Herron claims he wishes to show meekness and humility but immediately attacks the women. He claims he is going to challenge their motives. Sadly, he takes a godlike stance by saying he knows their motives. He doesn’t and should stick to what he does know. The beginning of his letter is indicative of what is to come. He uses spiritually abusive language to denigrate Kara and the others, calling them divisive for addressing their concerns. He is counter-attacking and he knows it.

If I seem defensive, it is because I have been required to defend myself, yet my desire is to do so with humility and meekness as well as firm holding to the truth. If this letter seems like I am counter-attacking my accusers, I am not. Rather, I am calling their accusations into question by challenging their interpretive lenses, motives, their own characters, and the history of immaturity and divisiveness they have displayed.herron claims that the women came to the church with the intent to harm him.

Herron claims the women came to the church with the intent to harm him and are a bunch of gossips.

It is well known that the word *gossip*  is often used in order to prevent open and honest communication between members of a church who are trying desperately to figure out what is happening. Herron seems to feel he is the victim of a plot that began prior to the women arriving at the church. That appears somewhat paranoid and is worrisome. In fact, he believes that the women have been intent on harming him. Why? They simply went to the presbytery for assistance which is part of normal PCA functioning.

This is quite a difficult task since the accusations brought against me are so expansive, vindictive, woven with distortion, exaggeration, and fabrication, and tied to complicated lenses of perception these people brought to Bloomington and have reinforced through gossip with one another while in Bloomington. Further, because these accusations are so incendiary and my accusers’ desire to harm me seems so prevalent, I desire to record a full response for the record.

Herron fears the women will attempt to harm him in the future.

This might appear to be some sort of emotional instability, even paranoia.

(Speaking of keeping a record of his response) a reference should there be any future attempts by my accusers to malign my character, seek to damage my reputation, or attack my ministry. Additionally, for the past several years I have received blows from this group of people, yet have not responded.

Herron questions the motives of his accusers and claims the only wish to end his career as a pastor.

He cannot know their motives so he makes up a few.  For example, he says they desire to see him humiliated and even will seek to end his career as a pastor.

Further, it seems clear to me that the motives of my accusers are not for the confrontation of possible sin for the purpose of the glory of God, the purity of the Church, repentance, forgiveness, and restoration; but, for what seems like, the purpose of vengeance, punishment, and desire to see me humiliated, shamed, and punished through censure or ending my career as a pastor.

Pastoral tenderness?

Herron claims that pastoral tenderness might be lacking in his defense. At least he got this one right.

pastoral tenderness may not be the most prominent feature.

Slander and gossip for thee but not for me.

He levels the typical charges of slander and gossip which are well known to be used by spiritually abusive church leadership. I wrote a post he should read called Slander or an Inconvenient Truth?  Slander has been so overused by abusive churches that the word has become almost useless. He claims he does not wish to portray people falsely yet he so does by claiming to know their motives. He doesn’t.

I have not responded in kind to the various people slandering me and gossiping with one another based on their impressions, perceptions, and feelings regarding me and my leadership.

…I do not want to portray people falsely or be a part of generating gossip and slander

He claims he knows the people who have gone to the presbytery and he, once again, accuses them of all sorts of evil deeds, including emotional triangles…Huh?

What in the world is an emotional triangle? He uses this term in several instances in the letter.

I am fairly confident as to who the people are behind these letters. It is highly likely that these people are an extension of the community of anxiety, speculation, slander, division, and sabotage that has been building among a handful of disgruntled young people who have departed the church

…see and understand the destructive emotional triangles that have developed with this particular group

He claims he sought the counsel of leaders to see if he lacked wisdom and if any of his sins played a part in this mess.

But, it’s all their fault. All of it!!

Bloomington, key leaders within Hope in order to be open, vulnerable, and submitted to others around me in order for me to have clarity regarding areas where I’ve lacked wisdom and insight, areas where my own sins may be at play, and in order for me to remain differentiated and present even as I have been slandered, accused falsely, and people have attempted to crush me personally and de-rail the goals of this church plant.H

He claims he confronted one individual of *the group,* claiming that this person was slandering him. It did not go well.

He said he told this individual that he needed to stop the slander in order to be reconciled to him. I wonder why?

we couldn’t really reconcile until he displayed repentance by stopping the gossip and slander. It was in this same conversation that xxx informed me that he and xxx were withdrawing their membership at Hope.

He claims he was told by others about this groups’ slander but he won’t way who!

Several people close to me who also have relationships with those in this group, have shared with me and another Hope leader in confidence about the consistent slander against me in face-to-face conversations as well as Facebook that had been a regular occurrence.

This letter goes on for 18 pages which makes it way too long for this post. I will share few aspects of the letter so you understand the general trajectory if you haven’t already guessed.

It’s her fault.

Since that interaction she has avoided me like the plague— literally sliding along the wall in the hallway whenever I or xxx walked by, staying as far away from me as possible when coming up to receive the Lord’s Supper, leaving rooms whenever xxx or I might be near, etc. This all could also be amplified by her traumatic childhood, childhood attachment disorder and the continued effects of this in her adulthood, as her husband has shared with me numerous times.

He claims Her husband was a failure which caused Kara’s abusive attitude to Herron.

(Chris Baker had a )3-year history of failure in faithfulness in his intern role at Hope. We had to consistently move him to different responsibilities as he failed to follow through in his duties.

…He continued to fail and so we had to continue to reducehis duties. This may be the “punishment” of her husband that Kara Million perceived was because of her negativity and abusive attitude toward me.

…he made comments to this person disclosing his sense of entitlement, lack of concern for others, and callousness to the generosity of others.

He claims this community expected co-dependent enablement from him. Wut?

the slanderous community a handful of former members have created. Included in this is their frustration with not getting what they’ve wanted in the church, added to some possible unwise decisions I have made or possible insensitivities I have had, and stirred into that, their not receiving the co-dependent enablement from me that they’ve come to expect from their relationships (hence their passive-aggressive attack of me through creating a community of slander

It’s all a lie.

 all of these have been distorted, exaggerated, or fabricated,

They have accused him of being a bully as well as exhibiting inappropriate behavior.

These words and phrases that my accusers have permitted the Commission to release include: “sexual harassment or exploitation,” “bullying,” “other women have stated their desire to speak up,” “unsafe,” “lurking,” “randomly show up and ambush me in a corner…” “used his body to intimidate me,” “touch and sidle up to me,” “lingering too long,” “blocked my path and refused to move,” “blocked my path before releasing me,” “aggressive and pushy,” “aggressive in tone,” “targeting me,” “I felt objectified and alarmed,” touching almost exclusively young women,” “his body was basically against mine”.

He claims his accusers are not showing Chrisitan love. Also, they are not trustworthy.

He does not look at himself as he makes these claims. It is all about *them*.

This is not Christian love and pursuit of truth and reconciliation for the sake of the peace and purity of the Church.Rather, this is their exercise of power to abuse xxx and I, hold me hostage to their feelings, and seek to bring division to Christ’s Church. This group of people are not trustworthy.

I am only on page 5… there are 13 more pages of this screed which has yet to show one iota of self-awareness by Herron.

I will try to shorten this. He goes on to list names that will prove how wonderfully mature he is.

He seems perplexed why women didn’t want to meet with him alone.

“[the accused] texted me and wanted to grab a coffee alone with me to hear my ideas. I was perplexed why [the accused] wanted to meet me alone.” [the other ministry leader apparently was not invited to the meeting]

He seems aware that he is being accused of stalking behavior but doesn’t understand why.

These are grossly exaggerated with intentionally inflammatory language: “lurking,” “suddenly appear,”“weird voice,” “randomly show up, “ambush in a corner…” What is the lens through which this personis scrutinizing me? I have addressed some of this already in oral testimony.

Other claims of women:

“He leaned in close and used his body to intimidate me… he easily towers over me.” He then started using his body to corner me in small places…”… had been physical while sitting on a couch, and the instance when I had allegedly inappropriately touched someone while in a worship service

He denies all of this, claiming he is a big man.

As I’ve stated previously, I do not recall any of these instances. I am tall, I do tower over a lot of people,I have a physical presence, these are indeed all true aspects of who I am. But, I do not corner anyone,

…Having the 6’2” pastor standing in front of everyone and talking with a person in the 2nd or 3rd row would have been greatly distracting to the congregation, so I chose an alternative as a split-second call. I did not consider how this could be the opportunity to intimidate, exploit, dehumanize, or inappropriately touch this young woman because this young woman wasn’t on my mind at all, unless I may have said, “excuse me” or something in order to speak to this other person.This gross exaggeration of both my actions and my intentions leads me to question my accuser’s experience and interpretation of this situation as well as the credibility of any of her other interpretationsof me because it displays a lens of presumption that unjustly portrays me as physically and sexually

He claims their sins or distorted desires struck a chord with them in some sermons that he preached.

Did this offend him/her because of his/her distorted lens, because my statements may have struck a chord with his own sin, or because I was angry at him? I am not theonly one who preaches about “idolatry” and “distorted desires”. Included in this group would be TimKeller, Jonathan Edwards, John Piper, the pastors of the CIP, and Augustine who originated the concept of “distorted desires” as a paraphrase of “sin.”

He said that *gossip* should not be considered legitimate testimony!

First, this is gossip, and should not be considered legitimate testimony. Second, what does this grasping at gossip communicate about my accusers, their character, and their intentions to malign my character?

He denies making any comments of a sexual nature.

 [heard at a coffee shop]: [the accused] stating “I like to go there to see ‘hot moms who work out.”

….I have never said this. Further, who was the person that heard me allegedly saying this, and to whom was I allegedly speaking, and what was the context of the conversation?

He claims he is experiencing spiritual warfare. He is being attacked by wicked people.

This is another abusive tactic. Andy Davis, a Calvinist’s Calvinist, called some friends who disagreed with him on whether women could be deacons “wicked and unregenerate.”

Third, there is the reality of spiritual warfare and an enemy who seeks to sow discord without restoration, conflict without reconciliation, confusion without clarification, and divisiveness. We have been experiencing this onslaught since setting foot here in 2012. And, as the church is finally reaching its goal in becomingparticularized, the onslaught has intensified in its most wicked and deceptive form yet.

He claims he is a visionary leader with a charismatic presence and this is his weakness!

Fourth, one of my gifts and one of my struggles, if unchecked, is that I am a visionary leader with a charismatic presence. As a result, I can communicate, or people can hear, big vision and a picture of the future possibilities that can be beautiful and compelling. I believe them, they believe them, we move forward.

I’ve been learning to not so much change who I am, but to learn to also articulate the challenges and struggle that comes with reality in pursuing a Kingdom-focused goal. I think it is possible that my own weakness in this area has contributed to some of the history of discord and conflict at Hopeas people’s expectations may have been disappointed.

The city of Bloomington is filled with polarizing and intense people who are seeking to infiltrate the church!

Can you imagine the people of Bloomington reading this assessment?

Fifth, Bloomington is a city and culture filled with polarizing and intense people, views, opinions.

…And that we’ll have to engage with the gospel as this culture seeks to infiltrate into the church. This is also a culture that is both being defined more and more by activistic

Wolves are infiltrating the church to sow discord.

God has been sovereignly protecting this church in its embryonic stages from wolves insheep’s clothing who are being used by our very real enemy to sow discord.

Had enough? I have.

So where did it go from here?

Herron

Herron and his wife allegedly entered counseling. He also took a year off from the pastorate. I have been told that he is currently seeking a new position in a church. He currently is an Assistant Lab Director at VisionQuest Labs.

We seek to come alongside trainers, coaches, teams, fitness studios, clubs, and athletes in order to provide university-level physiology and performance assessments to assist individuals in achieving their fitness and athletic goals.

Central Indiana Presbytery (PCA)

As is reported at the beginning,  the Central Indiana Presbytery blew this off as locker room humor. I have been informed that they didn’t want Herron to lose his job. However, he left anyway. Sounds like a good idea

Final thoughts:

Dan Herron demonstrates that he doesn’t get it. I don’t think I have ever read 18 long pages of protestations of total innocence while expressing that the people he was called to love were evil and wicked. 18 pages!! I find it difficult to believe that this man ever had the heart of a pastor. It is one of the most narcissistic screeds I have ever read.

I am deeply disturbed that the Central Indiana Presbytery did not see the obvious spiritually abuse thoughts of Dan Herron. Didn’t they read this disturbing letter? I know it was rather long but I read every bit of his tirade. Frankly, I do not feel people who are experiencing abuse in this presbytery should go to them for help.

I think it is time for the Central Indiana Presbytery and Hope Church to get educated in the area of abuse. I have some suggestions.

  1. Read the Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse: They might find many examples in this book in Herron’s letter.
  2. Read A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing. Much grace is needed for those who came forward.
  3. Contact a group like G.R.A.C.E to help this presbytery understand how to effectively intervene in abusive situations. They could also help to reconcile the church to those who have been hurt.

 

Comments

The Abusive Responses of Dan Herron, Formerly of Hope Presbyterian Church, and the Central Indiana Presbytery In Addressing the Concerns of Abuse by Kara Million and Others. — 82 Comments

  1. This is pure unadulterated evil and it is done in God’s name. None of these attacking words surprise me as I have been on the receiving end of most of them. Slander is their go to to keep victims silent. Men of God should be able to discern the evil intent in this letter if they can’t then they should not be elders of the Church.

  2. An emotional triangle or triangulation is an unhealthy way of relating where one or both people in conflict (the two points at the bottom of the triangle) try to ease their own anxiety by bringing a third person (the top point in the triangle) to take their side, mediate, communicate for them, etc. Doing this can be very manipulative, usually involves some level of enmeshment/codependence, and is often used to avoid (because of fear of conflict) the healthier option of talking to the person you’re in conflict with directly.

  3. HereIStand,

    Right, but that’s not what was happening here, at least not on *my* end. In fact, it was Dan who attempted multiple times to bring third parties into his perceived conflict with me (my reluctance to let him touch me and pursue an “intimate one-on-one mentoring relationship” with me). He tried to get my husband involved and make me more receptive to Dan. He also pulled in other people in the church, by his own admission in his defense, and even had meetings about me behind my back with several men in which he discussed deeply personal things about me that he had learned during his confidential pastor-parishioner relationship with me. I never even found out about these meetings until much later. He got some people in the church to monitor my social media for him and to feed him my online activities surreptitiously, even several months after my husband and I had left the church. Projection seems to be a prominent theme in his 18 page defense. Many of the things he accuses his victims of doing, he has done himself. It’s rather fascinating.

  4. Did any of the women dealing with this inappropriate, flirty, & harassing pastor ask him point blank on-the-spot what he is up to, like what in the world are his intentions with all of this creepy nonsense?

    Actress Sean Young worked with Harvey Weinstein doing films for Miramax. She said once when they were sitting in his office, his pulled something out of his pants. Ms. Young told Mr. Weinstein that he should put away his not-so-attractive little thing ASAP, then she walked out and slammed the door. She said she was never offered to do a Miramax film again. She moved on, without the work but no regrets. It was his company. Definitely affected her career and income, but no regrets.

    Not faulting the victims here at all. However, sometimes as church women, we (myself included) may need to stop acting like nice polite pretty little church ladies and call out predators for what they are, directly, even if they are the pastor. We may not make friends and influence people. That church just may be the pastor’s playground where he rules, unfortunately. Or, in this case, the regional org, too, is owned by his Good Ole Boys Club. They may call the ladies they’ve targeted crazy, slanderous, projecting, flirty themselves, divisive, Jezebels, etc. The ball is not just in these guy’s court – they may own the court.

    Jesus said that when they harass us in one town, move on to the next, and we will not run out of towns before he comes again. Sometimes, the predator owns the town, unfortunately.

    At least here at TWW, what women experience, even in church, and with pastors, is told. No NDAs.

  5. My mom worked in an office back in the 60s with a boss that always tried to feel her up in the file room. It was a huge room with large file drawers going all around the length of the wall. My mom got so frustrated that she purposely left the top drawer open so Mr. Handsy got a good whack when he got up from his stooped position. He never approached my mom again. I wish Kara had a setup like that ot whack Herron with!

  6. Ava Aaronson,

    They definitely tried to make me sign an NDA. I was not having it. The fun part was that in exchange they were offering money, not to me, but to my husband!! -_-

    As far as calling Dan out on his creepiness, one thing to note is that he is a large man (as he himself states) and many/most of his victims were very petite women (myself included). We were aware that women have been beaten and even killed over far less than confronting a man’s inappropriate behavior. Most people are aware of the “fight or flight” responses to a threat, but a third response is less well-known: the freeze. When we feel we cannot escape and we cannot win in a fight, a common response is to go limp and wait out the threat until we can safely get away. During some of the worst encounters with him, I literally felt as if I were detaching from my body and floating away, watching the event happen to someone else. By the time I snapped out of it, it was over.

    With that having been said, when he spread his legs in front of me so that I could see all the way up his shorts, I must admit I was so shocked and thrown off by the resulting display that I giggled. He was very displeased with this response. During my deposition later I was asked how his behavior during that situation had impacted me. I replied, “Well, as a parishioner I was thoroughly traumatized, but as a biologist I was… thoroughly underwhelmed”.

    People also need to keep in mind that pastoral predators usually groom the target, as well as key people around the target, far in advance of the actual assaults. Do we wish we could have had our satisfying clapback in the moment? Absolutely. But survival was more important…

  7. Kara,

    I am so sorry for what you’ve had to go through with this predator in church, of all places. Thank you so much for sharing, both in the post, and with your comment.

    I read this post right after reading ‘They Aren’t Who You Think They Are’ by The French Press, about a “Christian” camp. (Dee tweeted the link.)

    Reading this post, I kept thinking that some “pastors” are not who we think they are, as well as the denom orgs, and the church-goers $upporting these creeps.

    Cosby, Allen, Weinstein, Lauer, Rose, Hybels, Savage, etc. – they weren’t as we thought.

    Until the faithful are called home to Heaven, the question to ask is, “Is this so-called Christian or church or org or pastor or camp or youth leader, who they say they are?” Are they preying on others or supporting predation? This question is far more important than “theological” issues like infant baptism or social gospel. How about safety for children, and all others, and social mōrēs that respect all, including women – the real bottom line of church & fellowship today, apparently.

    The ECFA is for financial accountability.

    Far more important is moral accountability in how people are treated, such as this pastor with women. Or the camp mentioned above, a youth leader with young boys. ECMA would use standards of civil laws already put in place: harassment, violation of minors, etc. These laws protect women in the work place. A church should uphold even higher standards of conduct. Set the expectation. Follow through. If a church or pastor miss the mark in this regard, they are not who they say they are.

  8. What you went through is awful and I’m sorry you had to endure it. I have known enough arrogant New Calvinists to understand how he acted, but that arrogance mixed with predatory harassment and his position as pastor is just atrocious. And that he even tried to convince your husband to let him harass you is just way beyond comprehensible.

    That the presbytery was like “Yeah, we agree he’s a serial predator and sexual harasser, but we’re just not gonna do much about it because it’s just too mean to take away his job.” NO! That was so wrong! I hate the church’s belief that pastors can’t do any other job besides pastor. Though I’m not sure I’d trust this guy to work at McDonald’s, to be honest…

    Kara: During my deposition later I was asked how his behavior during that situation had impacted me. I replied, “Well, as a parishioner I was thoroughly traumatized, but as a biologist I was… thoroughly underwhelmed”.

    You are my hero for this response! HA!

  9. I take issue with this’

    | “Don Herron demonstrates that he doesn’t get it.”

    The sad truth is, he absolutely gets it – that he can abscond with other people’s wholeness to compensate for his own incompleteness. And even an ordered denomination will not protect its parishioners, volunteers, children, and contributors from these wolves in sheep’s clothing. Every denomination of every kind has demonstrated – as have non-ordered churches – that they will defend the men who prey upon their parishioners.

    For everyone that finally gets removed, countless others continue to prowl – some of whom fly their own jets and live in two-acre houses.

  10. This guy Herron is JUST PLAIN DISCUSTING.. His “letter” “seals the deal”…

    and, the Central Indiana Presbytery and Hope Church, in our current culture, have got to be some of the most clueless people around…..

  11. ishy: but we’re just not gonna do much about it because it’s just too mean to take away his job.

    It wasn’t as if his doctrine were out of conformity with the denomination’s confessional standards.

    Some day the confessional denominations will discover that “sound doctrine” is not a reliable proxy for “good character.”

  12. The thought occurs that in the “don’t want to harm the man’s career” rhetoric, we are hearing an echo of, or a rhyme with, the deliberations of the “Informal Council” that was convened to examine the allegations of misconduct by Tom Chantry.

    Careerism as a way of thinking about pastoral ministry is IMO not a good thing.

  13. ishy: That the presbytery was like “Yeah, we agree he’s a serial predator and sexual harasser, but we’re just not gonna do much about it because it’s just too mean to take away his job.” NO! That was so wrong! I hate the church’s belief that pastors can’t do any other job besides pastor. Though I’m not sure I’d trust this guy to work at McDonald’s, to be honest…

    I have to take sexual harassment training every year at work, and it is *thorough*, it goes through situations I may not have considered. My amoral secular temple of capitalism recognizes that sexual harassment is not good in the workplace. How hard is it for churches to do the same?

  14. “…but that “a man’s livelihood and vocation are on the line,” and it would be an “injustice” for him to lose his job over this.”

    The ENTIRE purpose of independent accountability of pastors is that a higher authority will take away a pastor’s “livelihood and vocation” if that pastor disqualifies himself. What in the world did this presbytery think their job was?! To ensure that disqualified pastors DON’T suffer consequences? Because that’s what it sounds like.

    What a mind-boggling backwards reason for not removing this man from his position.

  15. Paul K: The ENTIRE purpose of independent accountability of pastors is that a higher authority will take away a pastor’s “livelihood and vocation” if that pastor disqualifies himself. What in the world did this presbytery think their job was?! To ensure that disqualified pastors DON’T suffer consequences? Because that’s what it sounds like.

    Yeah, I have never been Presbyterian, so I don’t know the confessions that well, but I would think there would be something in their doctrine about the character of pastors. There is in the Bible, at the least.

  16. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: sexual harassment is not good in the workplace. How hard is it for churches to do the same?

    This type of “church” operates differently than workplaces.

    Hierarchical patriarchy protects itself above all else, similar to the mob, which makes church organized crime.

  17. Kara: As far as calling Dan out on his creepiness, one thing to note is that he is a large man (as he himself states) and many/most of his victims were very petite women (myself included). We were aware that women have been beaten and even killed over far less than confronting a man’s inappropriate behavior.

    The physical threat with intimidation sounds like the mob again, and once again making the church organized crime. Of course, there is the gender factor here, while the mob takes out anyone male or female who doesn’t play their game once in their arena.

    From what is described, this “church” is neither a safe nor civil environment. Social norms, Rule of Law, & Common Good, do not apply here. Dangerous place.

    Social norms, Rule of Law, & Common Good are pillars of civil society. The God factor of church & ministry should support, never diminish these. Rob Downen at the Houston Chronicle documented many churches and church leaders that do not operate on these three pillars. Seems to be a common issue across denominations; enter church, and leave these three behind, at the threshold. Not a good place to be.

    Freedom of religion in our free society has resulted in organized crime under the auspices of God. (Similar to Jesus’ time, who ended up crucified, except God’s people at that time were not living in a free society.)

  18. This is pure victim blaming. Trauma isn’t all fight or flight and even you know it. Don’t go coaching these women after the fact. They spend everyday asking if they could have responded better, shame on you.

    Ava Aaronson:
    Did any of the women dealing with this inappropriate, flirty, & harassing pastor ask him point blank on-the-spot what he is up to, like what in the world are his intentions with all of this creepy nonsense?

    Actress Sean Young worked with Harvey Weinstein doing films for Miramax. She said once when they were sitting in his office, his pulled something out of his pants. Ms. Young told Mr. Weinstein that he should put away his not-so-attractive little thing ASAP, then she walked out and slammed the door. She said she was never offered to do a Miramax film again. She moved on, without the work but no regrets. It was his company. Definitely affected her career and income, but no regrets.

    Not faulting the victims here at all… (We routinely shorten long comments which are merely repeats of another comment.)

  19. Ava Aaronson,

    Here are the dynamics. We have a physically large pastor who is the boss of Kara’s husband. This is the setupfor intimidation. Did you read that letter? I would be uncomfortable around him myself.

  20. dee,

    Herron makes me think of Big Jim Rennie, the arch villain in Stephen King’s novel Under the Dome.

  21. HereIStand: An emotional triangle or triangulation is an unhealthy way of relating where one or both people in conflict (the two points at the bottom of the triangle) try to ease their own anxiety by bringing a third person (the top point in the triangle) to take their side, mediate, communicate for them, etc.

    Isn’t that like the dynamic in a violent family feud where the child becomes the therapist, go-between, and cultivated ally of BOTH bickering/feuding parents?
    “Tell your mother bla bla bla…”
    “Tell your father bla bla bla…”
    “Tell your mother bla bla bla…”
    “Tell your father bla bla bla…”
    “Tell your mother bla bla bla…”
    “Tell your father bla bla bla…”

  22. Ava Aaronson: Social norms, Rule of Law, & Common Good are pillars of civil society. The God factor of church & ministry should support, never diminish these.

    Never mind “diminish”; all too often it’s Active Opposition.

  23. Paul K: What in the world did this presbytery think their job was?! To ensure that disqualified pastors DON’T suffer consequences? Because that’s what it sounds like.

    “One Hand Washes The Other…”

  24. These church leaders are not living in anything like Biblical tradition. They are living in some recent era of American society, when employment was based on the sole male breadwinner, and bosses chased secretaries around desks. Enshrining the higher wage and job security of a married man never really helped society, now did it? And abuse was always abuse.

    How old are these weirdzeroes anyway? The actions they are defending went away in the latter 1960s, for good reason.

  25. HereIStand,

    “An emotional triangle or triangulation is an unhealthy way of relating where one or both people in conflict (the two points at the bottom of the triangle) try to ease their own anxiety by bringing a third person (the top point in the triangle) to take their side, mediate, communicate for them, etc. Doing this can be very manipulative, usually involves some level of enmeshment/codependence, and is often used to avoid (because of fear of conflict) the healthier option of talking to the person you’re in conflict with directly.”
    ++++++++++++++++++

    re: marriage counseling with a skilled, bona fide licensed professional:

    i believe it can be helpful. do you have thoughts on triangulation in that context?

    i’m curious.

  26. Kara,

    “…even had meetings about me behind my back with several men in which he discussed deeply personal things about me that he had learned during his confidential pastor-parishioner relationship with me. I never even found out about these meetings until much later. He got some people in the church to monitor my social media for him and to feed him my online activities surreptitiously, even several months after my husband and I had left the church”
    +++++++++++++

    goodness… this is incredible.

    in the interest of trying to understand, in part was it ‘trying to win’? he didn’t like being rebuffed and wanted to win?

    didn’t like control being denied him?

    a sense of entitlement? that he was entitled to be in control, to be at the top always, to winning, to never being the loser?
    .
    .
    yeah, what a great candidate for a pastor.

    i think managing the inventory of the nuts & bolts aisle at home depot would be a better place for him. A million and one things to control and be boss of.

  27. “I have been told that he is currently seeking a new position in a church.”

    At least one church appears to has current published material from him readily available for its congregants:

    https://www.cpcnewhaven.org/resources

    “This Lenten Prayer Service comes from our Mission Anabaino church planter Dan Herron at Hope Presbyterian Church in Bloomington, IN.”

    And, this 80-page item:

    “”A Light Has Dawned” is a personal and household guide for Advent worship. It is a daily devotional through the season of Advent from Misison Anabaino church planter Dan Herron at Hope Presbyterian Church in Bloomington, IN. The entire story of the Bible is woven in with the strands of the themes of Advent. We pray that this may be an encouragement for you and your family through this coming season.”

  28. Samuel Conner:
    The thought occurs that in the “don’t want to harm the man’s career” rhetoric, we are hearing an echo of, or a rhyme with, the deliberations of the “Informal Council” that was convened to examine the allegations of misconduct by Tom Chantry.

    Careerism as a way of thinking about pastoral ministry is IMO not a good thing.

    Yes, and we are seeing that it is a central part of the dysfunction with the out of whack priorities that make one’s own nest-feathering the only non-negotiable in the situation.

  29. from Dee’s article/post: “As time would soon prove, empathy got dumped when it came to dealing with one of those *icky women’s issues.””
    ++++++++++++++++

    just wondering: for guys who grew up with sister(s), is what amounts to the “icky women’s issues” response a non-issue?

    hope i said that well.

    also, i think growing up having groups of friends made up of both sexes where everyone is simply ‘human’ is healthy for all of life’s relationships, present and future.

  30. Kara,

    Kara, I’m so sorry if my post came across as supporting his accusation as being accurate in any way. was only trying to give a general definition. Actually, my underlying assumption (based on lots of experience) was that (despite his accusation) he was actually the one that was triangulating!

  31. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Absolutely! To add to this, what usually develops is a codependence dynamic between the child in either one or both parents, where the child assumes responsibility for the parents emotions, including trying to make peace or making them feel better. In even more toxic situations, the parent will begin depending on the child to meet their emotional needs, Not being met by their spouse.

  32. elastigirl,

    If the therapist is trained well, the experience in marriage couples session should be a completely different dynamic than triangulation. Many couples will try and get the therapist to Triangulate, but a good therapist avoids this. A good therapist also avoids taking sides in arguments or being the judge or arbitrator of specific details of disagreements. The main goal of the therapist is to get the two spouses to learn how to talk directly to each other, Share their feelings, and move towards each other in empathy. Over time, this enables the couple to move towards forgiveness, Reconciliation, and restoration.

  33. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: My amoral secular temple of capitalism recognizes that sexual harassment is not good in the workplace. How hard is it for churches to do the same?

    It is VERY, VERY HARD for churches to acknowledge and do this apparently. They seem to think they are above the necessity. They say they know they are sinners, yet act like they are not by their innaction regarding abuse of all kinds.

  34. elastigirl: re: marriage counseling with a skilled, bona fide licensed professional:

    i believe it can be helpful. do you have thoughts on triangulation in that context?

    Hope you don’t mind my weighing in. DH and I don’t have much conflict, but we have gone through hardship. We sought couples therapy so we could talk to somebody besides each other, and relieve some of the weight of our suffering. We came away with better insights, composure, communication skills, and strength to face difficulty together.

    I would recommend considering couples therapy for the kind of abuse described in this post, too. If both husband and wife know what happened, a therapist might help them work through the pain that came from outside. (In our case, we certainly did talk to the therapist about past abuse in church settings.)

  35. Kara: With that having been said, when he spread his legs in front of me so that I could see all the way up his shorts, I must admit I was so shocked and thrown off by the resulting display that I giggled. He was very displeased with this response. During my deposition later I was asked how his behavior during that situation had impacted me. I replied, “Well, as a parishioner I was thoroughly traumatized, but as a biologist I was… thoroughly underwhelmed”.

    Bet this hit him where it hurt. Great response!

  36. “They say they know they are sinners, yet act like they are not by their innaction regarding abuse of all kinds.”
    ++++++++++++++

    gah…. it’s like “grace” is license to relax on personal responsibility and corporate responsibility. God will take care of everything. So I’ll sip my coffee, stare out the window and just extend my morning time with God instead of address this big inconvenience. God works all things out for good. God be praised.

    “Certainly not! You’re putting words in my mouth!”, says someone.

    “I’m just observing your inactions. To put a finer point on it, I’ve been paying the price for your willful Gospel-passivity, and have been keeping a record of expenses paid, hours spent sorting out, sleepless nights, medical appointments, missed professional and academic obligations, and more as a result… and that’s just the quantifiable part,” says someone else.

  37. “… one of my gifts and one of my struggles, if unchecked, is that I am a visionary leader with a charismatic presence …”

    Does anybody else say that about Mr. Herron or is that only his self-assessment? Is he vision-casting or casting for something else? It seems “pastor” is struck on himself … self-absorbed, self-obsessed, selfish. Somebody better keep a close check on his creepy charismatic presence, should he pop up somewhere else in ministry. I suspect he is being restored somewhere and will make the usual unrepentant comeback. It’s hard to keep a visionary down you know.

  38. Kara,

    “…but they did nothing.”
    +++++++++

    unfortunately, very typical of christian leaders.

    does it come down to the need to protect their own money and power? is it lack of training and experience? is it theologically-driven (God will work all things out for good)? is it misogyny (however cognizant or subconscious)?

    perhaps all these things things, plus 50% stupidity.

  39. Max: It seems “pastor” is struck on himself … self-absorbed, self-obsessed, selfish. Somebody better keep a close check on his creepy charismatic presence, should he pop up somewhere else in ministry.

    I’m no psychiatrist, but this man, his sermons and letter sound like an absolute narcissist of the worst kind.

  40. Max: It seems “pastor” is struck on himself … self-absorbed, self-obsessed, selfish. Somebody better keep a close check on his creepy charismatic presence, should he pop up somewhere else in ministry.

    I’m no psychiatrist, but this man, his sermons and letter sound like an absolute narcissist of the worst kind.

    Kara: We sent a link to the presbytery and let them know we were being trashed from the pulpit, but they did nothing.

    This pastor and this presbytery should be sued with the hopes they change their wicked ways. They don’t seem to understand the duties they’ve taken on.

  41. Prov 10:19. In the multitude of words sin is not lacking, but he who restrains his lips is wise.

    I guess Dan didn’t consider that when wriring his 18 page response.

  42. Bridget: I’m no psychiatrist, but this man, his sermons and letter sound like an absolute narcissist of the worst kind.

    If he can’t find another job in Presbyterian ranks, there’s plenty of room for him in New Calvinist churches over at the SBC. There are lots of narcissists in NeoCal pulpits.

  43. Kara,

    This has got to be the lamest excuse for a sermon I have ever heard. Cringeworthy. Full of Christianese tropes. I wanted to listen to it to see what these folks actually say to try and defend themselves. I feel bad for this entire congregation.

  44. “When the commission finally reached a decision, they told us they believed our claims, but that “a man’s livelihood and vocation are on the line,” and it would be an “injustice” for him to lose his job over this.”

    Disturbing. How many more “pastors” have they given the green light to who should have been declared unqualified for ministry? Mr. Herron certainly didn’t act like his livelihood and vocation were on the line.

  45. Max:
    “When the commission finally reached a decision, they told us they believed our claims, but that “a man’s livelihood and vocation are on the line,” and it would be an “injustice” for him to lose his job over this.”

    Disturbing.How many more “pastors” have they given the green light to who should have been declared unqualified for ministry?Mr. Herron certainly didn’t act like his livelihood and vocation were on the line.

    Romans 2:24 — “As it has been written: “For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you.”“

    How many such entities are putting fear of that on the priority list — as well as the priority of care for those harassed and abused and protection for others who could fall under attention and care (sic) later — versus thinking of one’s career and nest feathering impact?

  46. I had this big witty comment but in the end I only hope this clown of pastor falls. Hard.

    I dislike bullies in the extreme.

    For all the bad rap the internet gets, at least when these clowns resurface after “restoration” no one can say they didn’t know.

    The victims are the real heroes.

  47. JDV: Romans 2:24 — “As it has been written: “For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you.””

    This verse has come to mind many times over the past few years … Hybels, Driscoll, MacDonald, Tullian etc. … their elder boards, plus others who enabled them, contributed to taking God’s name in vain.

  48. Max: It’s hard to keep a visionary down you know.

    It’s reminiscent of Michael Scott, isn’t it? “Why don’t I tell you what my greatest weaknesses are? I work too hard, I care too much, and sometimes I can be too invested in my job.”

  49. dee,

    Thanks for this clarification. Yes, I read the entire post, several times, and Kara’s article on the CBE website – amazing article. This paragraph, beginning, “If the abuser is an elder and his victim is not, the abuser has far more power and access to information than the victim.” She shares examples that increasingly escalate the power differential. How that pastor, church, & church org played the power card against these women (and their husbands) and against the truth! Power silencing truth.

    Yes, the pastor is intimidating! I hadn’t realized that the abusive pastor was actually the husband’s boss (not seeing that the intern pastor reports directly to the lead pastor – church hierarchies escape me. I was under the impression that a Protestant presbytery was more on level ground, egalitarian, for everyone. I was mistaken.).

    It seems like the abusive pastor was trying to groom the intern pastor’s wife, and other women, but got stopped dead in his tracks when at every attempt they refused to play his game. Good for them! The more they stone-walled him, the more evil his actions; he revealed a core that is in no way pastoral. The fact that his denom org excused his behavior is also very revealing.

    Thanks for this post, and ever grateful to Kara for sharing her horrendous experience. Like writer Michael Lewis says, some stories beg to be written because stuff happens that some refuse to deal with or discuss. They tried but no one listened.

    TWW is a Godsend.

  50. Elizabeth Wade d’Anjou,

    Thanks for sharing. Please accept my apologies (for whomever felt my earlier comment was victim blaming). Never would that be my intention.

    Trusted and respected powerful people in strategic positions (bosses, pastors, friends, even partners) may turn on a dime to reveal they are bullies. Who is prepared for this?

    Both Emma Thompson & Sean Young have said they confronted Weinstein directly, which I find curious, interesting, & inspirational. Having been taught that a Christian woman is quiet, submissive, wholesome, and never confrontational, this is eye-opening.

    I was curious whether anyone had confronted this guy about his absurd and abusive behavior, not to challenge the victims with a “shoulda”, but wondering if it had been tried and how that worked. And yes, as Kara shared, confrontation can be deadly for a victim, so it may not be recommended. Sometimes the abuser is a coward; other times dangerous, like physically dangerous. Oh, to know the difference – to be able to read the room.

    Again, appreciate your patience and sharing.

  51. jojo:
    drstevej,

    1? Demeaning and dismissive… and so very disturbing. I request that you stop undermining us.

    Jojo, I’d like to suggest stepping back and seeing Dr.Steve’s 1 from a different view. From reading this blog regularly I’ve noticed Steve has been a loyal participant for many years. I think it would be fair to say that no one could accuse Dr. Steve of not caring. That has become very clear from following along. Dr. Stevw has his quirks and his jumping on first is actually a long standing joke of sorts. He’s been accused of hanging out under Dee’s table with the pugs as the reason he jumps on so fast. I see it as his enthusiasm, not his superiority. In no way do his comments reflect a guy that thinks he is better than any one else. It’s okay if he jumps on first. I see it as his way of letting us all know he’s here. He’s not undermining anybody. Your reaction is an indication you have some hurts of your own to deal with. Dr. Steve isn’t the cause of that and doesn’t have to change his routine.

  52. SarahM: Jojo, I’d like to suggest stepping back and seeing Dr.Steve’s 1 from a different view. From reading this blog regularly I’ve noticed Steve has been a loyal participant for many years. I think it would be fair to say that no one could accuse Dr. Steve of not caring. That has become very clear from following along. Dr. Stevw has his quirks and his jumping on first is actually a long standing joke of sorts. He’s been accused of hanging out under Dee’s table with the pugs as the reason he jumps on so fast. I see it as his enthusiasm, not his superiority. In no way do his comments reflect a guy that thinks he is better than any one else. It’s okay if he jumps on first. I see it as his way of letting us all know he’s here. He’s not undermining anybody. Your reaction is an indication you have some hurts of your own to deal with. Dr. Steve isn’t the cause of that and doesn’t have to change his routine.

    Multiple times, multiple people have expressed a concern about the effect on them after reading what is often very horrific stories only to be greeted with the who posted here when thing. Some who do that speak of their own issues and express an issue with what they might see as cognitive dissonance right off the bat after hearing stories which often carry elements of dismissive behavior by authorities.

    Usually, someone eventually weighs in down thread with a disclaimer about how it’s all good etc., sometimes with a tip-in to get over it. Recently, there’s been some pretty strong back-and-forth about it as well. I think an obvious answer keeps presenting itself; I guess we’ll see if it ever gets there.

  53. JDV: what they might see as cognitive dissonance right off the bat after hearing stories which often carry elements of dismissive behavior by authorities.

    Not wanting to take sides on this.

    However, this is a very insightful explanation of what happens, IMHO or my POV.

    Thx, JDV.

    The insights at TWW always amaze me. If only the church would be so open to sharing, what a day in church that will be. Well, maybe some participate in such churches currently. I have yet to see church as open and civil and insightful as TWW community. Ever grateful.

  54. Ava Aaronson: Yes, the pastor is intimidating!

    Intimidation is not a spiritual gift (i.e., Holy Spirit) … neither is manipulation and domination … yet, this behavior can be found in many American pulpits.

  55. Wild Honey: “Why don’t I tell you what my greatest weaknesses are? I work too hard, I care too much, and sometimes I can be too invested in my job.”

    Crazy busy? … or just crazy?

  56. Wild Honey: “Why don’t I tell you what my greatest weaknesses are? I work too hard, I care too much, and sometimes I can be too invested in my job.”

    Sounds more like Bragging About ME ME ME than weaknesses.
    (Or maybe it’s because I never understood Christianese…)

  57. This looks so familiar. It is exactly how my ex wrote his affidavits, using big words he had no idea how to use (giving my lawyer and myself some laughs while dealing with the seriousness of it all), rambling on for pages to the maximum length allowed, promoting himself, paragraphs packed with lies, projecting on me what he did, etc. Very insightful comments. Glad there is a group like this that gets it and can see right through the rhetoric. Just wish judges and church leaders had the same level of wisdom.

  58. As I read this article and then Kara’s original piece on the CBE website, the thought struck me that the issue is bigger than simply a CBMW-style complementarianism (which, I also admit, is a massive problem).

    I think the issue is authoritarianism. I think the church has started to drift this way, both in its ecclesiology (Elder-Rule church government as an example) and politics (religious fervor for Trump).

    I just read an excellent book by Amanda Farmer, titled “Once an Insider: Now Without a Church Home” in which she describes the authoritarian takeover of her church by a Neo-Calvinist pastor. In the book, she observed that creeping complementarianism in the CBMW-style effectively removed half a pastor’s potential opposition by removing all women from leadership and decision-making roles. Instantly, half the congregation had their voice and power removed.

    But I’ve seen this authoritarianism in markedly different contexts, such as the charismatic churches I grew up in (some of which were egalitarian). There is no more effective way to concentrate power than by claiming to speak for God directly – or indirectly through claims of infallible interpretations.

    In Ann Applebaum’s book, “The Twilight of Democracy”, she explains that the appeal of authoritarianism lies in its simplicity and unity. In an increasingly complex world, we tend to want everything to be a little more simple. A dictator seems to be a solution to some people.

  59. Kara,

    Thanks for the link. I’m listening.

    The more we know (transparency), the better prepared we can be, since as Dee puts right up front here in the post, we all experience this bad boy behavior at some point. (Maybe there is a female parallel? Don’t know; maybe guys know.) As Max points out above, we all want to steer clear of the 3-step grooming process intimidation, manipulation, domination.

    The podcast is called Faith & Feminism. Today at work I walked into a conversation group of ladies discussing NOT wanting to be labelled as feminists even though they are for equality. They said the term feminist had the connotation of femi-nazi. Perhaps another way of keeping women in their place and silent.

    Anyway, ever grateful for your testimony, Kara.

  60. I have several thoughts

    It seems that churches value pulpit skills and personality but don’t care so much about character. This “pastor” has no business leading a church. He can only get worse without severe correction.
    Not having women in top leadership is a huge detriment.

    It is no wonder why people are dropping out of churches.
    I am so sorry for the abuse that these ladies have dealt with.
    I also feel the number one/number two game diminishes these difficult stories.

  61. Max: Does anybody else say that about Mr. Herron or is that only his self-assessment? Is he vision-casting or casting for something else? It seems “pastor” is struck on himself … self-absorbed, self-obsessed, selfish.

    How about “Selfishness and Ego animating a body”?
    Or “Incredibly full of himself”?

  62. Jeffrey Allen: It seems that churches value pulpit skills and personality but don’t care so much about character.

    The Rules of Entertainment CELEBRITY are in effect.

  63. Headless Unicorn Guy: The Rules of Entertainment CELEBRITY are in effect.

    Alas, IMHO, this is what Evangelicalism has evolved into: “Look at our worldly success & celebrities up front, running the show, televised, and writing the bestseller books, don’t you want to join the party?” as spreading the good news. Definitely not Jesus’ message, though, as witnessed by the Biblical writers.

  64. Headless Unicorn Guy: The Rules of Entertainment CELEBRITY are in effect.

    Reflecting on this, I looked up the Matthew & Luke accounts of the temptations of Jesus from satan. The devil offered celebrity, sensual pleasure (& nurturance during a fast actually, bread to eat), angels serving Jesus, as well as all the kingdoms of this world. Unlimited power, pleasure, property. This is when Jesus was about to begin his ministry.

    It appears that some people have had such a visit from the devil, and instead of rejecting satan’s offers, they have accepted. Thus, we have some unholy or even evil alliances in our churches and church ministries.

    Jesus’ testimony and experiences warn us. Then we decide. Choices. Consequences. For here and Eternity.

  65. Ava Aaronson: It appears that some people have had such a visit from the devil, and instead of rejecting satan’s offers, they have accepted. Thus, we have some unholy or even evil alliances in our churches and church ministries.

    Bingo! And it ain’t covered by “grace.”

  66. Max: it ain’t covered by “grace.”

    Personally, I wouldn’t go that far, but you just may be right. You make a really good point.

    The timing, for example. Once Jesus was to begin his ministry, not a moment before, he prepared himself with fasting in the desert. Then, it was during this time, that satan presented Jesus with three asides:
    – sensual pleasure out of the spiritual protocols of Jesus’ fast (kind of like consensual sex in marriage is perfect but outside of marriage, not so much, perhaps in some cases just a pleasure excursion)
    – supernatural power
    – unlimited property.

    And, of course, with the caveat of serving or depending on or covenanting with satan himself.

    Wow.

    Is there heavenly grace after making such an outright (not a mistake or a slip or immaturity or youth or uninformed-ness or misunderstanding) and direct deal with the devil as you enter ministry? Good question. Personally, wouldn’t want to experiment with this. Does it happen? The Biblical account gives a nod to the possibility.