Neptune’s ‘Great Dark Spot’ and high white clouds-NASA
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.” ― Plato
CS Lewis addresses the problem of fear and it applies to us during the COVID era.
Last week I was listening to a discussion on fear and COVID. The speaker mentioned, in passing, that CS Lewis wrote about fear when the atomic bomb was invented. I was able to find the piece to which he was referring. I have to admit, I’ve been thinking about this for the last few days.
“In one way we think a great deal too much of the atomic bomb. ‘How are we to live in an atomic age?’ I am tempted to reply: ‘Why, as you would have lived in the sixteenth century when the plague visited London almost every year, or as you would have lived in a Viking age when raiders from Scandinavia might land and cut your throat any night; or indeed, as you are already living in an age of cancer, an age of syphilis, an age of paralysis, an age of air raids, an age of railway accidents, an age of motor accidents.’
In other words, do not let us begin by exaggerating the novelty of our situation. Believe me, dear sir or madam, you and all whom you love were already sentenced to death before the atomic bomb was invented: and quite a high percentage of us were going to die in unpleasant ways. We had, indeed, one very great advantage over our ancestors—anesthetics; but we have that still. It is perfectly ridiculous to go about whimpering and drawing long faces because the scientists have added one more chance of painful and premature death to a world which already bristled with such chances and in which death itself was not a chance at all, but a certainty.
This is the first point to be made: and the first action to be taken is to pull ourselves together. If we are all going to be destroyed by an atomic bomb, let that bomb when it comes to find us doing sensible and human things—praying, working, teaching, reading, listening to music, bathing the children, playing tennis, chatting to our friends over a pint and a game of darts—not huddled together like frightened sheep and thinking about bombs. They may break our bodies (a microbe can do that) but they need not dominate our minds.”
A mother addresses why we should be other-centered when it comes to the vaccine.This applies to so many things.
One of the TWW readers made this comment under the post. It’s Impossible to Argue With Conspiracy Theorists. Regardless, Francis Collins Addresses Vaccine SkepticismI have been thinking about this since I read it. When I make decisions in my life, am I other-centered or self-centered? In other words, she convicted me and it goes well beyond the vaccine for me. In fact, this week, I made a decision to do something because of this comment. Thank you, Brunson Honeydew.
NED means *no evidence of disease.* God, continue to heal this child!
I am the parent of a child who was in cancer treatment for two years. She is NED currently.
When parents chose not to vaccinate, it is not a “you do you and I’ll do me situation.” There are people in our world who are vulnerable through no fault or choice of their own. The unvaccinated put at risk these people. We rely on herd immunity to protect them. I’m going to be blunt and if people get sensitive because I suggest they are potentially hurting people, I’m sorry that the truth of the real world for some makes you feel bad. You should hear this angle from people who truly understand suffering and have lived their worst nightmare.
My child was vaccinated but two stem cell transplants did away with all that and she later had to be revaccinated. When I consider how people will not vaccinate their kids because of this very very slight chance of “something” and fear of a vague thing they can’t even name, I wish I could take them on a pediatric oncology floor.
What about the fear of parents facing a very real sorrowful thing? A child who is neutropenic from chemo can die from chickenpox if exposed. Cancer parents shield their kids from the world when it is most dangerous. But we still can’t avoid the world completely. What is sad is that cancer parents have to be even more careful about allowing their kids some normal in their life due to more and more unvaccinated people. Your choice is why cancer kids have to be more concerned about seeing a movie or going to the mall (pre covid ) on a “good day” when they aren’t throwing up or in the hospital.
As a parent of a kid who had a toxic amount of chemicals put in her to save her life, I find the fear over the unknown, vague thing incomprehensible. Be responsible. Protect cancer patients. Protect the elderly. A cancer child is just as precious but facing a very real thing and a very real risk from a vaccine-preventable disease.
Saying that something is all about you isn’t a judgment on how selfless you are to your friends, family, and neighbor.s You can be Mother Teresa in your personal life and still not think beyond that circle of yours.
An amusing and informative explanation of the Vaccine: stopping the A**H**** protein
Here is a link to the thread on Twitter that occurs after the tweet copied below. WheatNoil is a physician and I bet he is great at explaining things to his patients. I will never forget his explanation.
On the never-ending saga of Hillsong.
The Daily Mail posted Hillsong church was a ‘breeding ground’ for inappropriate sex and leaders ‘sent nudes to female volunteers while sleeping around’, claim whistleblowers after disgraced leader’s multiple affairs were exposed. The Daily Mail likes really long titles, even longer than mine.
Apparently, a letter was sent to the leaders in 2018, documenting a number of disturbing incidents in the ministry. It looks like Carl Lentz isn’t the only problem but I bet you already knew that. Was he the face of a dark and disturbing ‘ministry?” This letter was reportedly sent to high-level leaders in the US.
Staff at the celebrity mega-church Hillsong used the organization as a dating service, had inappropriate relations with volunteers and asked them to send nude photos of themselves, whistleblowers have claimed.
…One person employed by Hillsong was asked to step down after he had ‘multiple inappropriate sexual relationships with several female leaders and volunteers and was verbally, emotionally, and according to one woman, physically abusive in his relationships with these women’, the letter claimed.The same employee was also caught having sex with a church leader,
…They claimed: ‘This environment is dangerous and a breeding ground for unchecked abuse.’
…senior church members were warned of Lentz’s ‘inappropriate sexual behavior’ over three years ago.
According to one insider, in July 2017 a Hillsong member wrote to one of the church’s directors on email with allegations that some Hillsong leaders were texting nude photos to female volunteers, and that Lentz had been accused of making one volunteer ‘extremely uncomfortable’ after he ‘acted inappropriately’, was ‘extremely flirtatious’, and ‘has been involved in inappropriate
I think we’ll be watching the revelations for quite awhile. Hillsong appears to be heading for implosion and I’m not convinced that the leaders want to change. It has been a lucrative run for them. There appears to be a group of churches deeply affected by unfettered sexual activity and a love for money and fame. It appears the leaders want to soak up the riches before letting the thing die.
Saint Jerome warned us about this @1700 years ago.
A clergyman who engages in business, and who rises from poverty to wealth, and from obscurity to a high position, avoid as you would the plague.
1
SwillSong ????
I think this is very valuable information from WheatNOil; I also think we haven’t got to the bottom of recurrent viral diseases which aren’t new, nor how different viruses and viral diseases interact and potentise each other (an effect long well known to us, but not factored into the present epidemic); nor whether those who apparently have had covid 19 or those who apparently haven’t, are the ones for whom the shot is recommendable. I hope the shot does good to those who get it first.
It’s obvious we weren’t told what most of the covid 19 symptoms are. Why was the NHS boss still holding her mass horse racing meetings 6 months after the start of the epidemic? Why do organisations and small shops, have their safe opening plans rubbished in May and repeatedly thereafter? Why aren’t vaccines being accompanied by medicines for those hundreds of thousands having chronic illness from covid 19, joining those hundreds of thousands of us from previous epidemics? And nobody got monitored for more than 30 minutes: what happens to people after that? What’s with the three or more kinds of tests?
This dude is good but we need more. It’s no good sending us to school till we are 18 then rationing information. Anyone would think authorities got the idea by copying the bad churches. This dude is telling us from a psychological motive. Well where were all the other people whose motive is supposed to be straightforward – where are they and when are they going to just say say say tell tell tell. In my young day thirst for knowledge was supposed to be a good thing.
It’s no use any of the participants from the other thread telling me I got my bad questions from bad churches because i ) they are good questions, and ii ) I don’t get anything from bad churches any more. Why shouldn’t I assume good questions will have good answers? Why shouldn’t I assume some decent people are capable of working on those?
Also it doesn’t sound like MRNA vaccine is any different from ordinary vaccine, they have always worked like that (i.e by approximation) haven’t they? Those aren’t the whole raft of sensible questions some people have been asking but are a good chunk of them. Question asking isn’t malicious (like the bad religions say it is) and isn’t casting of wrongful suspicion. It’s straightforward eliciting of straightforwardness. Why should we have to impute unstraightforwardness? Why does anything get dumbed down, ever?
Swedish policy hitherto resulted in a death rate one-quarter that of the UK pro rata (the UK’s is not more than forecast a year ago).
My mum saw a full bus splintered to pieces in front of her eyes. She was in the next bus and they got missed.
My mum’s mum was in hospital with bronchitis on Christmas eve and she said to her go to a party (and her sister was only 17 and the brother they never told me they had had might have been 19 by that time and in a different country) and come & see me on Boxing day and on Boxing day there was someone else in the bed.
It took 28 years to get hold of my Mum’s mum’s assets when she needed them after 8 years of which she had died and it took a further 20 years after that. These were not substantial sums but they meant the difference between the near shortage of food and clothes of my first 11 years and something a bit better.
I have been more ill than usual this year and I purposely haven’t seen the doctor even though I’m getting worse. I’m not stoic and I’m not whingeing either.
We bad religion survivors have been through toughening though it feels like the reverse. The economic slump was placing billions of people on the bread line years before covid 19. A whole city blew up the other week. There are constantly disasters without warning. Science still gives only a day or two warning of an asteroid.
It’s a good job we still get told some things with a sense of awe and enthusiasm. If authorities aren’t mealy mouthed, why do they act mealy mouthed then? Leave dumbing down to the bad religions and stop copying them. The gospel hasn’t been told to anyone for lifetimes, only a caricature of a fragment of a shell. Isn’t it time most of the churches struck a less triumphant note?
What is that I hear, the sound coming down from the hills? It is the melodious sound of Humpsong music. Make-out music for the spiritual yet sex-starved.
Sigh… no wonder so many people are starving spiritually. These fakers had no idea what Jesus meant about Bread of Life, so they fed people sparkly cupcakes with an aphrodisiac chaser.
Hillsong-NYC appears to be going the way of other cheap-grace churches in America. Some within their ranks have exchanged Christianity for antinomianism, where they feel they have been released by “grace” from the obligation of observing the moral law. They are greatly deceived … living in Bubbleville, but not the Kingdom of God.
You mean they are going to Hellsong?
In the words of an old song “Living Life Upside Down”:
“You say we’ve risen to a new age of truth
And you’re calling it a spiritual Godly pursuit
But I say …
What if we’re knocking at the gates of hell
Thinking that we’re heaven bound”
Dee, are you still posting about churches that defy covid restrictions, or has that become too much of a dime-a-dozen story?
We’re in a part of California that’s gone back into tighter restrictions because of falling ICU capacity. Our former church continued to meet in-person with zero social distancing, justifying it because they are “submitting” to God’s authority instead of man’s authority.
Their children’s director just tested positive. Within days, they’ve suddenly moved everything online because an unnamed number of staff have either tested positive or been exposed.
Ironically, this is the church where I was asked if I could “submit to leadership and training.”
From the article up-top:
“It appears the leaders want to soak up the riches before letting the thing die.”
From Glenn Frey, Don Felder, and Don Henley:
And in the master’s chambers
They gathered for the feast
They stab it with their steely knives
But they just can’t kill the beast
Last thing I remember
I was running for the door
I had to find the passage back
To the place I was before
“Most cults are started so the cult leader can (1) get rich, (2) get laid, or (3) both.”
— my old Dungeonmaster
Nobody has refuted, by substance what Brunson has said and nor should they. Bad religions got their affection-stealing techniques from the Soviet Union, building on a genuine concern (the public with unsightly light grey growths who can’t talk to us and barge through us aggressively * ) and presuming to “tell us what we think”. Then bad administration borrows it in turn (with minor adaptations) from bad religion.
* in recent weeks masks have got attractive and those people have recovered their considerateness for us.
EricL,
A church I went to for a bit actually held a formal chocolate brownie break (with “discussions” and “animators”) in the middle of the service !!! !!! !!!
Please pray for my family. Our daughter is in another state. Her paramedic husband is on quarantine for on the job exposure to covid. Significant long term exposure during a transport. Last night the health dept. put her in a 14 day quarantine for on the job exposure. They have to remain in separate quarantines. Our granddaughter had chosen to stay online for school this time around, so she is not currently quarantined. House is small, one bathroom. So last night she was taken in to stay with her pastor and his wife. Plan today is a favorite teacher has volunteered to take her for the duration.
This stuff is real. Please get vaccinated when you can. They thought he would get the jab this past week, but the slowdown of distribution of the vax has caught them and we don’t know when he can get it.
We cannot travel from our very hotspot to help them, and being such high risk could not take our grandkid in anyway.
Everyone’s stress levels are through the roof, I spent most of the night in prayer, and covet you all to join me in intensive prayer for them.
Wild Honey,
I am wondering if TWW should post a “honor roll” ( being sarcastic) of churches that defied closure restrictions? It seems to me someone should hold accountable the statements of these “preachers”…. maybe also the statements/ you tube videos should be preserved…. I have watched/skimmed some pretty outrageous ones ..
Since may authoritative preachers like to justify their actions citing OT verses/principles, maybe we should dig out the criteria for prophets… the OT is pretty harsh on “false prophets”… I am afraid S. Cal is going to get allot worse before it gets better….
I’d believe it was more about the Bible if they had any kind of safety measures in place like masks and distancing, but I have seen that completely ignored by a lot of those churches. And people just buy into it without really questioning them. So I’m not sure appealing to the Bible really matters here.
I suppose we can take some small consolation that there is a particle of evidence of a measure of ability to learn from the consequences of foolish choices.
What was it the Proverbs said…
Oh yes,
“A whip for the horse, a bridle for the donkey, and a rod for the backs of fools”
From the opening post:
LOVED the Twitter thread. 🙂
Thank you for including the link, Dee….
They obviously don’t have enough sense to lead or train anyone!
IMO, in the case of this public health crisis, submitting to man’s authority ‘is’ submitting to God’s authority! We are commanded to obey the authorities over us (Romans 13). They are not asking us to denounce our faith in God, but to simply exercise proper health precautions to halt the spread of this deadly disease. For God’s sake (and the rest of us), wear a mask, social distance, sanitize your body! The children of Israel stayed in the house when the death angel spread through the land.
It’s worth noting that two of the biggest scandals to rock American Christendom in recent years have occurred at so-called “seeker-sensitive” churches: Willow Creek and Hillsong. Although I should note Hillsong was originally founded in Australia.
Church history will record that seeker-friendly has not always been God-friendly. Hybels started Christianity Lite with “Tell me which way you want to go, and I’ll get out in front to lead.” He, and others that followed, created mega-mania and a generation of churchgoers who swim in shallow water. Scandals in both the pulpit and pew were predictable … more flesh than Spirit.
I was raised in a swampy area. Mosquitoes – lots of them – lived in the swamps. My family were God-fearing people who had a lot of common sense. To protect ourselves from mosquito-borne illness, we installed screens on doors and windows, used insect repellents, wore protective clothing, and eliminated breeding sites for mosquitoes on our property. We all survived.
Wear your mask, social distance, sanitize/disinfect, vaccinate yourself.
The only place on the web where I have seen a list of Pandemic bucking churches has been on Prof. Throckmorton’s blog. He started it a while back and then kept updating it: https://www.wthrockmorton.com/2020/05/24/churches-and-the-spread-of-covid-19/ He has reported on some outbreaks in big churches and has gone after Malignant Narcissist John MacArthur harder than anyone else I have seen.
Ironically, Warren has come down with the virus himself in the past month and is recovering. He does not know how as he says he was taking all the recommended precautions, but in his position he is in close contact with a lot of different people for a lot of time during the week. Compare that to me and my wife, we go shopping once a week and that is our only possible exposure point as we go near no one else the rest of time. I do this more because I fear God who has always claimed credit for pandemics in the past than the virus itself. The more time you spend out there with the public the greater your risk at exposure.
To me all the pastors still holding physical services are doing so out of narcissistic reasons, they need a room full of people applauding their mediocre preaching skills. This desire for the praise of men means that they come up with excuses and downplay the real risks. The churches not taking any precautions at all are the one with malignant narcissist pastors. These are the ones that are covered here who blame victims for scandals that happen inside their doors and are the worst of the worst. Love does no harm and it is not self-seeking. Loving pastors of churches too small to do virtual church are the ones who have shut their doors and are adapting to the situation. The lack of the fear of the Lord is currently creating the mess in churches and it is not hard to see if you want to have open eyes and are open to God’s Holy Spirit telling you things that you may not really want to hear.
Wild Honey,
Let me know the name of the church and I will write about it if I can see some media reprots.
Michael in UK,
Good night! Really?!
Jeffrey J Chalmers,
I tend to tweet when I see something. I need to get the tweets to appear here.
Speaking of an honor roll of offenders during this pandemic, John MacArthur has preached about submitting to government authority. What changed ? The “great expositor” is now saying that God commands the church gather not matter what. Apparently, this command to gather means it has to be thousands of people, indoors, shoulder to shoulder, and mask-less.
Meanwhile there is 0% ICU capacity in LA County right now. How loving. How wise.
Me thinks he likes the publicity. It is also is a convenient way to divert attention from some bad press the last couple years. If the press is bad, create something new for people to talk about .
good point!
linda,
Praying for your family, Linda.
dee,
Yes! And we should list the various passage that says we should our “spiritual” leaders accountable, especially for prophecies ( and prophecies are not just predicting the future)
Bunsen Honeydew,
Yup.. his December 6th “message” on You Tube is pretty disgusting..
Our church has been meeting in person — masked and socially distant — while also offering services online. This week, our leadership decided to do Christmas Eve services online, and do online services on Sundays for the next two Sundays afterwards. I live in GA and we’ve had a spike in cases after Thanksgiving, and our leadership is trying to protect us from a possible after-Christmas spike.
I messaged our pastor that I was disappointed but understood their reasoning. He messaged back that he was sad also. So many pastors, elders, and other spiritual leaders have been under so much stress this year.
It’s actually worse than that inside. They are pushing the idea that the virus is a hoax designed to take American Christians down and there’s no pandemic.
Honestly, I think maybe he needs a mental evaluation…
Wild Honey,
Not a good look:
1. Submission to Dear Leader (in the name of “gawd”).
2. Ignoring science, as in the science of Covid restrictions.
3. Cluster outbreak.
4. ICUs demand outpaces supply.
5. Premature death.
6. Cult.
A good look:
Total Covid deaths in the country of Taiwan (a multi-party democracy): 7 deaths.
Last death count was 1 death on May 11, 2020.
Apparently, the Dear Leader cults are not running the country of Taiwan.
There are Christian churches in Taiwan. Good for them.
Hyper-Calvinism drives everyone crazy after a while.
No butts in the pew = no dough in the offering plates.
ishy,
Unfortunately, there many, many examples… I just can’t my hands around..
“You thought you were so great,
perched high among the rocks, king of the mountain,
Thinking to yourself,
‘Nobody can get to me! Nobody can touch me!’
Think again. Even if, like an eagle,
you hang out on a high cliff-face,
Even if you build your nest in the stars,
I’ll bring you down to earth.”
God’s sure Word.” (Obadiah 1:3)
A lost world – which knows the pandemic to be real – looks at JMac and his foolishness as another excuse to mock Christianity, to say “See, there’s nothing to it!”
Max,
Yup…. you should see what they say about young earth creationism and Christianity… and Johnny Mac is a young earther…
Max,
Well, life is extra hard when it’s a family enterprise. The SIL’s company makes 700/year for video production for Grace to You.
Freely paraphrasing St Augustine, if they preach a lot of known false statements about what you know to be true, then they come to you with their preaching a Man who Died for Your Sins and Rose Again, who’ll believe them?
If you make false claims about things I DO know, why should I believe that other (and fairly over-the-top) claim you’re pushing on me is TRUE? After you’ve torpedoed your credibility, why should I believe ANYTHING you say?
Man there are just so much parallels between this church situation/circus and the political circus in the news. Both wanna-be Divine Royal Families at the trough of the gravy train, keeping everything in-family like the marriages of Egyptian Pharoahs or Spanish Hapsburgs. Christians are so used to this in their churches, why shouldn’t they transfer that Worship and Allegiance to someone outside their church who acts the same way as their Anoinited Pastor?
Another parallel (or should that be crossover) between Church and Politics.
Yet another parallel and crossover between church culture and political culture.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
A couple of days ago I had a back and forth on FB page with fundies/rightwingers, and they told me, still, that COVID is overblown, and ICU not full where they live…. A reoccurrent theme I have observed over the last 9months that I started to engage people from my fundamentalist past over COVID is that the news is fake/exaggerated… and the press is out to “get them”…
It is just plain amazing, especially given my professional world and family ( i.e. our science/research/medical world)… but then, grew out of that world, whereas they are still stuck in their bubble….. I would really like to know what they think of me…. we can speculate allot, but deep sown, Iwould love to know..
I will certainly remember your family in prayer. Hoping that no one ends up with covid, and that all involved feel loved and cared for.
I don’t think it’s really about the gospel. After all these years, I’ve been coming to the conclusion that finding the people that will believe it anyway is exactly what they want. Because those people will believe anything they are told and won’t fact check or think critically. And many of those people are probably fragile psychologically and therefore easier to manipulate and control.
I knew someone in that church who once said Grace seemed to take strategies from Scientology. They are both based in the same geographic area. And both are very concerned about money and status. Different theology but similar tactics, so what’s the real point of theology?
linda,
Linda, I prayed for you and your family just now.
FYI: The quote from C S Lewis comes from his 1948 essay entitled, “On Living In An Atomic Age,” first 3 paragraphs.
It looks like Mike Bell of Internet Monk will be revisiting his “Coming Evangelical Collapse” next week before signing off.
This year has been a bad year for “christian” crazy. I don’t see how the damage can be repaired in the near term, and on the intermediate term, if the skeptics of climate disruption prove to be mistaken, as I expect them to be, it will be worse.
Maybe the solution is to dissolve the Union and reconstitute into a secular republic and a theocracy, with a transition period for migration between the two so people can complete the big sort and segregate themselves as they wish… Just kidding. I don’t see a solution.
Samuel Conner,
I know people that would love to sort to the “theocracy” to get away from us “ secular humanist”…
The solution is 2 Chronicles 7:14. But I don’t see any movement in that direction; American Christians are having too much fun doing church without God.
It might be closer than you think Jeffrey.
I’m scared, I never in a million years thought it could happen here on these shores.
A coup followed by a dictatorship.
God help us all.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-election-2020/michael-flynn-suspend-constitution-martial-law-trump-reelection-b1765467.html
linda,
Praying for your family, Linda.
dee,
Thank you, Dee. Doxa Church in Rocklin, CA. I forwarded you an email with some links and information.
My congressman is an anti-masker and COVID denier. He invites people to his Facebook to promote their quackery. I should note that my congressman has the same qualifications I have–a BA and JD–and neither of us are qualified to say that epidemiologists and infectious disease specialists are wrong. I choose to pay attention to the science, and my congressman is all about MUH FREEDUMBS. We have many, many retirement communities in our congressional district, more than in lots of places and my concern is that residents won’t take it seriously. Ultimately, all I can do is protect myself, my mother and my brother as best we can.
The necessity of a kept virginity is lost on todays younger generation of church goers in the age of COVID. Ask any youth pastor…
If the tipical pastor has no cloths how could you expect his parishioners…
Is freedom just another word for nothing left to loose?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkznlP29TjQ
If it looks like a cult, acts like a cult, and talks like a cult, maybe it just really is a cult – of any type of org or branding or social culture or whatever.
Wild Honey,
My church in a similar situation in CA continues to be open DESPITE a staff testing positive and some other families in quarantine. Want to come to one of our three in-person Christmas Eve services? I just don’t believe any of it, but it’s all on our web site.
Cults 1. Tear families apart. 2. Have a corner on the truth 3. Use authority and manipulation 4. Expect conformity or you do not belong . 5. Make differences according to what suits them (your sin is way worse than their sin ) 6. Ideology is everything (it’s not about sin or The Bible; it’s about what team you’re on)
I am very deeply experiencing all of this right now with family. It makes no sense that we should be torn apart. It does once you realize all the aspects that fit with cultism.
Taiwan did this without going into lockdown.
Muff Potter,
I know…. I agree that I would not have thought it could happen 20 years ago…. but, the signs of deep seated trouble have been brewing for years, and 45 figured out how to exploit them….
Lets just hope and pray that our military, police, and other government officials take seriously their oath to the Constitution.. to me, it really does hing on that…. oath to the US Constitution and rule of law.. and average Joe seeing what is happening by 45 and his followers is NOT about losing their freedoms…
What I can not get my hands/head around is that SO MANY average Americans are buying into this stuff put forward by 45 et al.. how many people have to die before people realize COVID is real?
Now MacArthur is trying to say that it is not a pandemic because most people die from COVID have other “underlying condition”… No sh$t… this is not new… you do not die of diabetes or most cancers either, you die from complications from those diseases….. It just shows to me that either JohnnyMac never really visited and cared for his dying flock over the years he has been a pastor ( if you really cared for them, you would understand what kills them).. or he is just lying… either of which is pretty damming.
If I may be suffered to inject a teeny bit of levity into the unhappy direction of the latest part of the thread (my bad) …
https://thehill.com/homenews/news/530879-australian-cattle-feed-invention-equal-to-taking-100-million-cars-off-the-road
This would a great supplement for the “clean beef” pastor to incorporate into his business model. “Good for your health, good for the planet! Be public-spirited — eat clean beef (TM)”.
Samuel Conner,
Cute…. it is true…. cows burp and “pass gas” a HUGH amount of global warming gasses…. again, right wing nuts say, see, it is all “natural”…. the problem is the NUMBER of cows!!!
MacArthur needs some elementary education regarding the nature of a disease outbreak vs. epidemic vs. pandemic.
“An outbreak is called an epidemic when there is a sudden increase in cases. As COVID-19 began spreading in Wuhan, China, it became an epidemic. Because the disease then spread across several countries and affected a large number of people, it was classified as a pandemic.”
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/about-epidemiology/identifying-source-outbreak.html
JMac is wrong, of course, but he’s dug himself a deep hole with this madness and he’s too arrogant to admit he is in error and climb out.
I think a return to civility by both sides would be a huge step in the right direction. Both sides, with good evidence, believe the other side is subverting the constitution and leading us into a dictatorship. If the extremes from either side get their way, we could very well find ourselves in a dictatorship (and dictators from left and right end up being more similar than different). Eventually we will need the non-extremes from both sides to start finding ways to work together and to throttle back all the voices and actions of the extremes. But it turns out that people in DMZs have to worry about landmines and snipers. Not an easy place to live.
To all who praying, thank you! Our paramedic should be off quarantine tomorrow pending clear covid test. Grandchild is currently rotating between a beloved teacher’s home and her pastor and his wife, who are neighbors with them. Our teacher is quarantining but having a hard time with the emotional stress of everything.
There are days I wish I could gather all the covid deniers, anti maskers, and anti vax folks and put them on a large island somewhere away from the rest of us. I keep telling myself Jesus prayed for those who crucified Him because they did it in ignorance. I have a harder time myself thinking kindly of those who put my family at such risk.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
Yes. Because the people in the middles get shot at from BOTH sides!
Jeffrey J Chalmers,
It’s clear that JMac is not “other-centered.”
My ex used to wonder if certain people “believed their own BS.” I’ve been following the GTY situation pretty closely and can also cop to having watched probably every sermon available on the GTY website at least once up until about 2017. My gut is saying two things: it is more about the attention than the $$, and he doesn’t believe his own BS. The man isn’t stupid and I honestly don’t see how any thinking person can buy into the fake arguments propping up the covid-as-a-hoax narrative.
Yesterday my aunt asked me if I was aware of x, y and z conspiracy theories and when I said no, said, “well, if you watch regular TV you wouldn’t know about them. I quit watching regular TV because it’s fake news.” She is 87 and a Seventh Day Adventist, but lives with kids and grandkids who all work for Adventist Health. At least we agree about masking.
How to make sense of it? I think ishy is onto something (“I don’t think it’s really about the gospel. After all these years, I’ve been coming to the conclusion that finding the people that will believe it anyway is exactly what they want. Because those people will believe anything they are told and won’t fact check or think critically. And many of those people are probably fragile psychologically and therefore easier to manipulate and control.” — ishy)
But as someone else pointed out (and sorry but I’m not sure who at this point) this cannot be good for Christian credibility or witness. (if they believe this they’ll believe anything. credit to whoever said that somewhere above, or back in the vaccine thread.)
I’m sorry, but I don’t hear ANY talk coming from one side about invoking martial law to keep a political leader in office, and screaming arguments about same at the highest levels of government. Seriously, it’s all coming from one side. Please stop trying to both-sides this, it’s simply not the case. Just stop.
I simply don’t understand.
My parents are local. Sometimes the church followed guidelines, sometimes not. Looking back, it seemed to follow the whim of the pastor. They finally had an exposure on a Sunday during the service and went fully online. I’m not sure if it was staff or congregation member.
The church my family most recently left (we saw the signs of encroaching neo-Calvinism before covid hit, but their response to the pandemic hastened our departure) is also meeting indoors (albeit with some social distancing). Their Christmas Eve service is planned for outside, but will move inside in case of inclement weather “following covid safety protocols.” Following safety protocols would be to not meet inside!
“Christmas is not cancelled,” the website says. As if they had the power to authorize whether or not Christmas is “cancelled” (cue major eye roll).
I am so sorry.
Succy,
Unfortunately, I agree with you…. the logical inconsistency of so much fundy/evangelical world has always really bothered me….
now, do not get me wrong, I recognize the conundrum/conflicts of free will/Calvinism, the trinity, the problem of evil…..
however, I fully embrace the conundrum of all the implications of Quantum mechanics/relativity, and the lack of understanding in biology!! In another words, we humans do not, and can not, have all the answers, BUT, we do not then just give up rational thought, and thinking for ourselves!!
And, preacher boy, ex-footplayer JohnMac is not going to “teach me” what a pandemic is or isn’t… and he has no business telling his flock either… you should see what is followers say on You tube of his “message” claiming this is not a “pandemic ”!
I don’t think this is entirely true, though I agree\ that the most extreme rhetoric is coming more from one side than the other.
The current president has been, for years now, accused of being actually or potentially an intelligence asset of a major geopolitical adversary of US. I’m afraid that CT is now SOP for both sides. The preoccupation of one side with the business dealings of the son of the soon to be inaugurated new president might be regarded to be sauce for goose and gander.
And the preoccupation with CTs arguably serves the interests of both ends of the US political spectrum because it holds the attention of the people and distracts from the reality that neither end of the US political spectrum serves the interests of the majority of the people.
Michael in the UK
I have a job for you. Can you keep us apprised of the new strain of COVID in the UK that is apparently 70% more contagious. I heard that Europe is shutting down visitors from the UK. This is worrisome. Do they say the current vaccines will work with it?
They did not have a total lockdown, but they have had tight travel restrictions, quarantines, mask mandates, restrictions on large-scale events, negative covid testing to enter the country, and extensive contact tracing.
Taiwan also used lessons learned from previous epidemics, building on their knowledge. They paid attention to early rumors of disease and got PPE together.
All of the above is considered an affront to liberty in far too many American minds.
The US is in this tragic predicament because we refused to pay attention early and work together. We probably could have avoided lockdowns.
Case in point. No further explanation needed.
Speaking of JMac’s cult now it looks like they are covering up many COVID cases among their leadership team: https://julieroys.com/covid-outbreak-macarthur-intimidated-not-report/
At least one is reported sick enough to be hospitalized. We are watching another malignant narcissist in action. He could care less about anyone’s safety and likely believes he is above getting sick and dying himself. This is what the total lack of the fear of God in self-righteous leadership looks like…
Very true. It looks like Taiwan locked down international travel very early and very strongly. The US travel restrictions were too little too late, and even then were described by many as xenophobic. Taiwan imposed masking and social distancing very early, and provided info on where masks were available and where they were in short supply. But in the early days in the US no leaders from either side were pushing for masking. And Dr Fauci initially said masking was a bad idea, not becauee he thought it was, but because he was worried about shortages and hoarding. Also in the early days leaders in CA and NY were telling people not to panic, to go about their lives as normal, and to come visit. Taiwan never shut down their economy like many parts of the US and Europe did, which shows it is possible to get ahead of the virus without destroying businesses (and it’s not at all clear that economic lockdown helps). But now it’s too late to take the early actions that could have prevented this. I don’t give either side a pass on this one.
The way it looks to me is one side wants to push us into a pot of boiling water, and the other side wants to throw us into a comfortable pot of water and slowly turn up the heat. The end result is the same either way. The arguments, methods, and rhetoric used by both sides look very different, but it does not mean one side is less dangerous than the other in the long run.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
I can not tell you how many people that I have interacted with have down played, or outright not believed in any official info on COVID…. the general distrust by many people for information they do not like, or fits their world view narrative” is really depressing…. at the University I see “the left” being resistant to facts also, as well linking ALL correlations to causation…. sigh..
I wish there was a way that us middles could escape the crazies at both extremes.
This song’s for all of us middles.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdiuqQ7xm30
In other news about fundy Christians not caring , last weekend Kirk Cameron hosted a carol sing at a local mall here in Ca. Hundreds of people gathered . They were outside but no masks and close together . Google it…lots of videos. Lots of news people interviewing him. He’s doing it again tonight at the same mall—as the hospital down the street is filled to capacity. I seem to recall Kirk is tightly allied with JMac and was attending GCC at one time.
When they ask Kirk what this is all about, it’s obvious how political this is. It’s not about what’s wise or good. It’s all about protesting our “liberal” governor and about “freedom”. And just like JMAc , it’s all about the making the news.
Bingo! This is so true for our political narcissists are every bit as malignant as the religious ones that are blogged about here. Miss that and you are swallowing a camel while straining at gnats. Seeing the speck is easy. Looking in the mirror at the log which is identical is hard. This is most true where specks are being exposed. In 10 years will we look back and shake our heads for some of the things that we believe and publicly argue about now that are just dead wrong? Humility is not just a good ideal. It actually has to be practiced to gain the very real benefits of it.
I would beg to differ.
Even though the radical left has made no vocal overtures in favor of violent revolution, their endgame is the same, a boot on a human face.
Notwithstanding all those calls to “Burn in down!” Neither side is innocent.
This is a very interesting article on a potential contributor to some people being more susceptible to COVID than others.
https://www.ajc.com/life/study-vitamin-d-deficiency-found-in-over-80-of-covid-19-patients/A6W5TCSNIBBLNNUMVVG4XBPTGQ/
I am sure some will interpret the article as a reason to OD on vitamin D.
May I offer an illustration in support of this? (Not that it matters, but I voted third-party in 2016 and write-in in 2020.)
My grandmother is an immigrant, grew up in Nazi Germany. She and my grandpa had a Trump/Pence election sign in their yard this election cycle.
Someone spray-painted their garage, “F*** Trump.” We went over to help clean up the mess. I met my Oma at the door, said “I’m sorry,” and gave her a big hug (sorry, worth breaking covid protocols for). With tears in her normally stoic eyes, she said, “It reminds me of Hitler times. They just kill you if they don’t like what you do.”
Yes, I understand the irony.
But that also frightens me even more than covid.
this report, recently up at Warren Throckmorton’s ‘blog, will not surprise any TWW readers:
https://www.wthrockmorton.com/2020/12/19/another-outbreak-at-john-macarthurs-grace-community-church/
The 5 point summary is a bit stunning — giving better than ever, new members joining.
This … as mobile refrigerated storage is being employed to make up for shortage of space in morgues.
Samuel Conner,
The underlying article, by MDZ, linked by WT is worth reading.
https://moderndayzorro.medium.com/churros-coffee-and-covid-outbreak-at-grace-community-church-part-2-4dd5a07f98fe
Surely this kind of leadership should be regarded to be a form of pastoral abuse of flock. Not much comfort in that rod and staff.
I hope I live long enough to see what the historians and the church historians make of this period.
The heart of Christianity is JOY…
How come it is virtually non existent here?
Sadface
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1u3scOBeAE
“So, two weeks ago at the Grace Staff Christmas party lunch was served and maskless elderly and Elders sat shoulder to shoulder, hugged and shook hands and along with the Filet Mignon, were spoon fed the following from John MacArthur:
COVID PCR tests are inaccurate and should not be trusted.
Don’t take the vaccine as it’s just a money ploy.
Grace is welcoming 400 new members.
The giving is the best it’s ever been.
There are no long-term side effects to COVID”
I mean, I already knew the kind of propaganda they were spewing, but YIKES!
ishy,
So, I personally know people that are suffering from side effects from COVID… according to JohnnyMac they are lying….. just wow…
yes Ishy, as far as I am concerned what JohnMac is quoted as saying, if true, is as bad as any abuse on the TWW… not only is it denying, unfortunately he has a LARGE following… and There are plently more preacher boys saying the same thing….
ishy,
The thought occurs to wonder whether points 1,2 and 5 might be subtle forms of projection.
Samuel Conner,
I definitely think 2 and 4 are related…
The Medievals believed that bathing was ‘sinful’ and that Roman sanitation methods via infrastructure were the same as not ‘trusting’ God.
It was also believed that disease was caused by the Jews, not poor sanitation.
MacArthur would have been right at home.
As pointed out here before by other intelligent and informed commenters, the obvious answer is who the heck knows the answer to that question? Only God at this point. We do not even know how effective the now two vaccines will be against the many variants that are already in existence, let alone new ones that keep popping up all the time. We do not even know how well these two will work with the original strain which is what these vaccines are based on at this point. We do not know what will happen with the unlucky few percent that the vaccines did not work on in the trials. We do not know if when exposed will people who have been vaccinated just clobber the virus without being infectious to others. We do not know which strains for certain that they will work with and which ones they will not. Perhaps they will work on all but that is just a guess. The reality is that this tech is untested on humans beyond these few trials and this has never been done before trying to vaccinate the entire human race as fast as possible! If we learn anything at all from the past that these things never go off without a hitch. A year from now we will have some answers to these questions, but right now if you want answers you will have to ask God Himself. And if you do not ask, then for sure you will not get any answers, for the scriptures make that point plainly clear. All I know is that we are called foolish when we place too much faith in men. Science is interesting, even fascinating to me, but it is not a god.
https://julieroys.com/covid-outbreak-macarthur-intimidated-not-report/
I didn’t noice that anyone else had posted Julie Roys latest link about the growing number of COViD cases at MacArthur’s church. It’s alarming.
Extremists come in handy to discredit the 99% of people who are not extremists. This turns into a thought-stopping exercise. “I can’t consider their ideas, because a mob of them…” (while dismissing the opposite mob as not typical, not a threat to order, etc.).
We might do better to discuss the merits of ideas without reference to their worst proponents. Hard to do, though.
dee,
My general impression on “official information on vaccines” is that it is so dumbed down, officially, that it’s impossible to really appraise – and I am basically in favour of vaccines of all kinds.
These are a very serious selection of diseases. They have been around for 15 months and government didn’t react for 6 months and dumbed down the symptom list. Government officials were holding their mass race meetings 6 months into the epidemic. Very strange their heads are not asked for on plates?
Many virus illnesses stay inside one. My take is, a large amount of the populace may have had it early on, and as it flares up again within each patient, the version is worse each time. Indeed several patients in other countries were reporting this very thing to media 8 or 10 months ago. In addition however, it – or variants – may resemble diseases that actually do go away before coming back. As we have at least 5 different immune systems, have these viruses impacted some of our immune systems negatively as well as positively? The two hyptheses indeed don’t contradict. I concluded all this range of hypotheses almost a year ago.
I no longer describe my personal circumstances as it’s not prudent but I will tell you I have long experience of aspects of this.
Very well established information knew long ago that coronaviruses and herpetics (just for example) interact greatly.
Knowedge does consist in ranges of hypotheses and these are firm to proceed when taken as a body and not dumbed down. Only fundamentalists dumb down. This is why science needn’t be exact “consensus”. St J H Newman extolled degrees of inference in all matters (an ideal match with Popper). No-one would know what to carry on looking into, if no-one got the dreaded “ideas”. Ideas have become especially dreaded if based on eyewitness observation or true mathematics. No issue is closed but all issues bear continued looking into, and this can’t honestly be taken as undermining politics.
Illnesses similar to these ones have long chronically inflicted large numbers of people, and I know of a nasty man on a government body to do with religion (who is known to have contacts who are in dubious circumstances) who has been misusing book publishing to deny these virus illnesses for many years.
Tests of three or more kinds (not all of antibodies) are of varying usefulness and are applied haphazardly.
Nobody tells us if we shouldn’t have one of these vaccines if we think we’ve probably already had covid 19.
These are all separate issues and mustn’t be package dealed.
A quiet shop like my independent outfitter, where germs don’t spread much, and who quickly worked out a way to lessen it further, will he survive a third shutdown?
Those aged 18 plus, the young marrieds, the parents of children, will they thrive in permanent unemployment?
It’s not me that caused the world to be mismanaged. (Additional angles have been mentioned some threads ago.) Mac’s points 1-4 are irrelevant including when inaccurate (there is no reason for churches to say anything on these subjects), and in his point 5 he is viciously lying against the ill.
I’m coming to realise how tragic it is that churches don’t pray and don’t teach their people to pray.
So called “Gospel” is solely about getting God to cross you off His boiling you in oil list, according to a man who belongs to a church, whom I heard from this morning. He doesn’t care whether anyone would pray for him on a tough day or whether God would prefer him to pray for someone on a tough day. His children are aged 9 to 13 and I just can’t believe his complacency when it is almost 2021. There are degrees of salvation and it’s serious to not opt for the minimum that might turn out a bit too minimum for our liking. Why are there parables? Salvation is going to be about the survival of the integrity of our faculties (and the state of others will be imputed to us in differing degrees). God might see ahead to something which in science will be hypothesis.
There used to be true teachings, and those need a lot of researching. It’s almost understandable that former christians pooh pooh truth because authority has bent it, but God would prefer us to grow into a more solid form of agnosticism. The word “christian” incidentally only means a person that hangs around churches, and is solely of colloquial import, it doesn’t refer to the state of one’s relation with Christ and Holy Spirit. One of the give aways around Mac is that this is solely about his organisation.
Linn,
Why am I not surprised that they are being pressured to “not report COVID” to the authorities…. IF this is in fact true, another example of Christ like behavior.. yup Christ us to hide, be dishonest when the state is trying to protect it citizens… yup you can not trust that evil state….
Why are members/leader at Grace going to the hospital when it is not real anyway????
But not unexpected.
Anti-Mask, All a Hoax, Whose Side Are You On (on pain of Eternal Hell), God’s Anointing Will Protect Real True Christians from the Plague from Heaven’s Bioweapons Lab — WHAT DID YOU THINK WAS GOING TO HAPPEN!
During the AIDS slo-mo pandemic, the Russian slang for black African was “SPID”, i.e. “AIDS-Carrier”, as in Russia such foreigners were believed to be the spreaders (like homooexuals in American beliefs of the time).
How long before Christians are known to everybody as “COVID-Superspreaders”?
Like I prophesied just above, CHRISTIAN will come to mean COVID SUPERSPREADER.
Just yesterday, we had a COVID scare right here when my roomie lost his sense of smell and taste. Lasted only 12 hours then came back. No other symptoms, everything fine now. Apparently a 24-hour cold bug with that symptom. Though the hot flashes (feel like fever but no temperature) I was getting through the day sure didn’t help. After NINE MONTHS of Lockdown Cabin Fever in the middle of the current hot spot (same hot spot as JohnnyMac’s church) my only hope now is to survive until the vaccine distribution gets down to us (age 65, roomie in 50s with diabetes).
Headless Unicorn Guy,
This whole situation is not going to end well….. and if they really do not go for the vaccine.. it will continue… and continue….
Johnny Mac is far from the only one spewing this belief…
With the first vaccine rollouts, have they also gone full-honk Anti-Vaxx (for the lowborn pew-sitters only; I’m pretty sure JohnnyMac is waving tithe money under the noses of the local hospitals and authorities to get himself and his family on top of the vaccination priority list).
But this will be OUR BOOT! NOT THEIRS! WE’RE ENTITLED!
Kirk Cameron, “Greatest CHRISTIAN Actor of All Time (GCAAT)”…
Why am I not surprised?
The government already paid for Americans to get the vaccine. So church members are going to pay for it in their taxes anyway.
He basically is just flat-out lying to make his point, which really makes him, and Christians, look like jokes. But it’s way more serious than a joke, because he’s putting other people’s lives on the line.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
True. The measures they took worked. Seriously worked. In a democracy. With Christians and churches.
Seatbelts save lives. So do correct Covid measures. In a democratic, church-going society. 7 deaths total. The last Covid death in Taiwan was on May 11th.
Maybe the American church leaders could communicate with the Taiwanese church leaders and find out how they do it. 7 total vs 300,000 + end nowhere in sight.
dee,
I kid you not. A lot of people left it after that. Their Rector was the sort that doesn’t mind people leaving. I don’t mind eccentricity – I couldn’t pin them down well enough altogether so I left as well.
Max,
Which side of the mobius strip are they going to end up on – in or out?
It appears the biggest factor was Taiwan being an island that could completely shut down inbound travel. But they also have a different culture, they had practiced for a pandemic like this, and they pre-stocked PPE. I suspect the church has little impact in either their culture or ours. I also wonder how much politics was a factor in the early stages in the US. Back then there was huge focus on impeachment, not so much on pandemic preps.
Michael in UK,
Sheep on the right … goats on the left.
Will you please clarify? I think American churches have had quite an impact on the public will to cooperate with emergency health measures.
Public health officials in the US were not involved with impeachment proceedings, and could have done their jobs unimpeded. They were probably hampered somewhat by restructuring and by an emphasis on biological weapons rather than contagions from nature.
The US church is incredibly diverse. The COVOD-denying churches appear to be a small minority of churches. There are also a lot of deniers who are not church goers. I just don’t see church association being much of a factor either way. I am sure there are some places where it did, such as Moscow, ID. But certainly not in NYC.
As far as masks go, CDC guidance is to wear them when one cannot maintain 6 feet of distance. But in many places they are required all the time everywhere. I don’t think a mandated belts and suspenders approach is useful for garnering support. However, MacArthur did not respect any of the guidelines.
Only government legislatures and executives could have imposed the kind of restrictions Taiwan put into place. In the US the federal government has limited ability to impose nation-wide restrictions, so it would have required a massive coordinated bipartisan effort across all state governments with the federal government. There was no interest in action like this until it was already too late. And back in the early stages there was no way 45 could have gotten away with imposing the measures that were needed due to partisanship. Do you remember how 46 (among others) accused 45 of being xenophobic after he imposed travel bans? Those travel bans were nothing compared to what was needed to make a big difference.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
The Roman Catholic Church has gone to court about worship freedom. Religious cases have gone all the way to the US Supreme Court.
A travel ban based on nationality, instead of transmission risk, is problematic.
Sure, it’s hard to get people to agree. But it’s far worse to promote disagreement.
Every country has one head of state; the US is not the only country to struggle with steady, unifying, consistent messaging about the hard work of combating covid. But I refuse to believe that our tragic covid numbers have to do with an inferior culture or, conversely, a superior political system. Those are common messages, not necessarily coming from you.
Not quite on the subject, but my brother has considered making and selling tinfoil hats. He doesn’t believe it but he thinks it might be a nice, amusing side gig. He was looking on a site to see if anyone was selling actual tinfoil hats. I walked into the room as he was looking at a black t-shirt with a cat wearing a tinfoil hat on it. I said, “oh, that’s a cool shirt, I’d like that for my black t-shirt collection!” (Because I had this idea I was going to wear black t-shirts to the office when we finally went back to the office, but we’re not going back until March 1, 2021 at the earliest, and this was last May.) He bought it for me for my birthday and I have worn it frequently.
We have to do something to amuse ourselves whilst on lockdown.
As a registered member of the political party in question for the last four decades, I would say bluntly that we’re not leftists. We have hangers-on, like a certain independent senator who only signs up when he’s running for president, but actually doesn’t give a darn about political realities. In a country pointing center-right, actual leftist politics are a complete and utter non-starter here. I get accused of being a communist or a socialist, but I point out that I’ve worked for an evil too big to fail bank for 22 years and what communist or socialist would do that, they shut up. For the record, I actually know the difference between all those groups–there are differences, some differences are sheer chasms–since I studied EU/UK politics for my BA.
Speaking of the EU, it looks like the UK is getting an early Brexit for Christmas with the new strain. Maybe they’ll call it “Covexit.” Dee, I saw a report that the viral mutation may already be in Italy, but no details.
I looked at those five points and I suspect that every single one of them are lies.
That said, if anyone who reads here goes to GCC, please do everyone a favor and drop a dime to the LA County Department of Health. MacArthur’s church is required to report when three people have gotten COVID in a new outbreak and he’s not done it. Yeah, I am telling you to rat the guy out, but he’s not respecting the governmental authorities and breaking the law. You can yell at me below.
Sorry but the Covid-denying churches are all over and huge in numbers. There’s a lot of ground between Idaho and NYC. I’d say 1/2 of the relations decended from my grandfather (born 1885) are deniers. And there must be a dozen or so preachers and preachers-in-law in the group. Spread across 5 or more states.
And there’s a wide range between “It doesn’t exist and is a government hoax” to “I don’t care what anyone says, you can’t make me wear a mask. I’m a God fearing US citizen with rights and beliefs.”
On the positive side, as mentioned earlier, Taiwan has 7 total deaths in a democratic Christian country with churches. That’s .3 per 1M people.
Australia, also a democratic Christian church country, has had 35 deaths per 1M people.
(The USA? approaching 1K deaths per 1M people.)
Interesting for our churches to communicate with their churches (lower numbers of deaths) for reference.
Are there TWW readers who would like to comment about their country’s stats & what appears to make a difference?
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
They’re showing their allegiance to GAWD (and PASTOR) instead of Men.
Like snake-handlers.
Assuming a fatality rate of 1-2%, that means between 5 and 10% of Americans have been infected. Probably more because the death rate lags the infection rate by 3-5 weeks and the rate is doubling every 2-3 weeks.
COVID Denial: The latest Litmus Test of your Salvation.
COVID Denial: The latest PROOF that you’re REALLY a Christian.
Right up there with Anti-Vaxx.
Engels and (Nine?) Marx were mutant capitalists as Eric B. reminded those of us who haven’t forgotten that he had reminded us.
Oh, I have. Sometimes I jump in and argue under a longer version of my name on here. Which probably accomplishes nothing except making me crazier.
NC Now,
Some people are traumatised by blueish growths over others’ faces or by the loss of sense of others (I noticed that they no longer saw me) or have an insuperable problem
breathing when both their nose and their mouth are covered (the latter are exempted here). People either don’t bother talking to me sufficiently or I can’t hear them, the way round which has got to be imagination and thoughtfulness (louder and slower for one thing). In the UK this came in at exactly the time we were all told we should RELAX the 6 ft rule (but I didn’t).
He spent years “cultivating” the anti-cult image, the fraud. Bethelated and anti-bethelated. Torontulated and anti-torontulated. “Anti” in the sense of identical twin. Quenching the gift in you and me by rationing diktat (Kansas et al).
The public recognise illogic (dishonesty) (either-or is conclusive in itself) and disrespect (the assumption of their non cooperation) very well, even if they don’t articulate what they see. I see huge cooperativeness and almost everybody doesn’t go where they are not expected.
I am not denying the fact that there are COVID-denying churches. There are also a huge number of churches who believe COVID is real and are following appropriate guidance. There are also many deniers who don’t go to church. Do you have any data showing how much impact COVID-denying churches had on the numbers vs all the other deniers? There are also quite a lot of people who believe the lockdowns in some areas are too extreme and don’t help. Taiwan did not shut down their economy, for example.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
I think the testing and counting systems are far less comparable than is admitted. However, the death rate from covid 19 per total population so far in the UK is exactly what was forecast 1 year ago: 200,000 per 65 million. (It’s probably no longer being admitted there had ever been a forecast.) Arguably that in the US, per population, is a bit lower. That in Sweden is far, far lower.
I have a feeling infection rates and incubation periods are being completely mis-estimated everywhere. Remember that part of covid 19 suppresses numerous immune components, so that these vaccines will have to be far more complex than any others.
A year ago, there were 40 (forty) “variants” of covid 19 (19) WITHOUT counting “mutants” IN that. As for “recovery” I don’t see any reason to assume it is total or long term.
About real tragedies – which are numerous and colossal – including chronic illness, which politicians deny, and political delay, which politicians deny, and the abolition of palliative care, which politicians deny – as well as personal – and the emotive misuse / hijacking by media outlets of “tragedy” (TM): you in the US had many more wars than you admit, you had frequent economic collapses, you had hardship.
That we sin, was pretext for church interlopers to withhold Holy Spirit from all of us. The real logic is in the substance, in the substance, of everything. I don’t consent to being taken as a dialectic.
There is a big difference between churches following social distance and masking guidance vs not. Are you saying the RC court case is to do what JMac is doing? I think it is perfectly appropriate to question why lockdown restrictions are inconsistent. For example, why is it safe for large retail stores to open but not small ones?
I was not saying Taiwan culture or politics are better. But the differences (including geography) made a huge difference.
dee,
Not Michael, just me. About 50 miles from London. The Year of Our Lord 2020.
Yep, many European countries have now unsurprisingly shut their borders with us, France being the most important as many of our food lorries go through there. (For any of you following Brexit this shows that the idea that the EU dictates border policy to its members is false. Individual members retain the sovereignty over borders that pro-Brexit campaigners said the UK would only have if it left the EU.)
We don’t know a whole lot about this new strain yet, though it has been found in many other countries, who are handling things better. A new more virulent strain hit Taiwan a while ago, but their measures kept deaths down to 35, may they RIP. Mutations are to be expected, & although more infectious strains of viruses are normally less harmful we don’t know that yet. Nor we do know if the vaccine will address this strain – if not then you can be sure the science bods will be working hell for leather to address this. You can rely on medical & science people that way.
There have been cases of Covid in the village I live in right throughout this year, starting with those returning from Italian holidays in March, & more recently involving children at the local school. Local friends have had it & recovered, but I’m still hoping to avoid it (like the plague) due to underlying health issues.
In short, the UK is currently in quite a precarious state, with a Government who cares not one jot except for the already rich, mishandling a global pandemic, & blundering its way into a mis-sold Brexit that will do no-one except the Disaster Capitalists any good. One wonders what they do with all that money.
I will write more in future if the scurvy doesn’t take me first.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
All across the land, organizations facing restrictions are pointing to other organizations and crying discrimination instead of giving priority to human life and health. Imagine where our economy would be now, if our central government political leaders had given consistent messages as the science emerged and PPE supplies increased. Instead they set masks up as symbols of oppression.
One of my relatives is upset about a measly 3-week ban on sit-down dining in his area. Incredibly, his favorite restaurants don’t do takeout, curbside delivery, or home delivery, but they complain that the state government is anti business.
Certain churches take this a step further, implying that they are above the law entirely. The messages are far from subtle, along the lines of “you can purchase rum and cigarettes, but you cannot worship the Holy God!” When California pointed out specific risks of indoor worship, Harvest Rock Church cited the availability of laundromats and meat-packing plants. Why not worship outdoors or online?
I don’t know which area you are referring to that closed small stores but left open large ones (New Mexico?). It would be informative to know the details. Many businesses can adapt, though, offering curbside pickup or shipping. For my own safety, I paid a little extra to have Christmas gifts shipped from local shops.
BeakerN,
Scurvy? Thank you for your thoughtful review of what is happening in the UK. I’m sorry that you are going through this. I assign you the *boots on the ground* status. Please keep us informed. I just heard the strain is is 70% more contagious but no increase morbidity. Please stay safe.
We should pay close attention as information emerges. If this variant is 70% more contagious at the same death rate, it could cause more cases and therefore more deaths.
Meanwhile it is not completely clear whether the brand-new vaccines are as effective against the newly discussed variant.
This is something I’ve wondered about when I see restaurant owners on TV who talk about their businesses being completely closed. My favorite restaurants all have takeout or delivery, so we have been trying to support them. One business here bought a food truck that they move around each day. I’m sure they are not making as much as they normally do, but they are still in business.
I think if you really want to run a business successfully, you have to be adaptable, even if it’s really hard.
You are so right about this. Our local barber adapted by raising prices and eliminating some discounts. The dry cleaner (capacity: 1 customer at a time) makes masks. Our favorite restaurant found an online ordering service that does not bankrupt them; they also sent an email that described their safety setup, and informed us that all employees have health insurance. Another restaurant takes orders by phone. The gym operates by appointment only (although heck no, I’m not going there!).
Large retail stores generate hefty tax revenue for local governments … small businesses not so much … churches none. But, it is still common sense and civil responsibility, for churches to obey restrictions on large maskless gatherings IMO.
Doing back-of-envelope math in the back of my head, I think that US is approaching or surpassing (as a fraction of population) combat mortality (on a per annum, per capita basis) in WWII. There was talk earlier in the year, in late Winter or early Spring, of being in a wartime-like situation, invocation of Defense Production Act, etc. Aside from the Federally funded accelerated vaccine program, most of this talk seems to have been performative more than substantive. The “bully pulpit” could have been highly effective in stimulating pro-social citizen cooperation that might have mitigated the consquences of the patch-work responses of the states. Instead, that “pulpit” — it seems to me — was employed in less fruitful ways.
I think that culture is a problem, though it’s harder to precisely identify the problem. One aspect, I think, is that the people of the US are less “united,” in the sense of common good will one for another, than they were in past existential crises. This division might actually be, if not intentional (trying to stay out of tinfoil hat territory), useful to our rulers in that if the people of US hate or distrust each other, that might cement alliances to customary political forces and divert attention from the fact that both ends of US political spectrum do not serve the interests of a majority of the people.
I stopped going to my barber when he refused to wear a mask, sanitize the barber chair between customers, used the same cape over and over, and limit the number in his shop (a lot of old guys sit there all day and lie about fishing adventures). I witnessed that one time – my last haircut there in March. I suspect the county health department finally corrected him, but I’m doing my hairdo differently now. I now use my daughter’s hair stylist for a haircut since she practices all of these precautions. Unfortunately, the price is a little higher and the gossip much different.
BeakerN,
Thanks BeakerN for your perspective. It’s helpful to get a report on this development from a faithful Wartburger, rather than the fake news.
Any word yet on the effectiveness of the COVID vaccines used in the UK on this new strain?
Max,
Getting a haircut is something I’ve been doing myself, but I had not found someone I really liked here. I’m just not very comfortable going inside anywhere for a period of time. I try not to even go in grocery stores and just do pickup or delivery.
My elderly father lives with me and should be in line soon to get the vaccine. That will do a lot to relieve my anxiety about the situation.
Exactly. The “church” in many places has failed the local citizenry with its “Hell No! We won’t obey!” message. JMac failed to preach the right sermon and be the right example in California.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/quarantine-haircuts_l_5e973402c5b6ead140065d1b
I let my 16-yo cut my hair! Told her measure 4″ and chop it off, and it actually came out ok. My husband refuses to let me cut his, even though I ordered clippers and watched at least 1 ‘how-to’ YouTube video (did my son’s hair and it came out ok); says he will go for ponytail look instead. Says something about how much he trusts me after 33 yrs! 🙂
In my not so humble opinion churches that insist on indoor in person services have shown themselves to be not churches. If you return to one after the pandemic, know you need to go as a missionary.
Around here the churches are ignoring the requests to limit size, and in spite of a mask mandate are only willing, some of them, to suggest them. I check in with the online services to as many as I can, and guess less than 1/10 of the attendees wear masks and social distance.
As to restaurant take out: be careful. In our town we have had several instances where restaurant workers tested positive and went back to work, some at the take out window of various restaurants. Our health dept. does not enforce quarantine, just suggest it.
Re churches, I am beginning to wonder if this pandemic is being used as a whip to drive out the money changers? If a pastor has no concern for my life on this earth, why would I trust him regarding eternal life?
To that end I see many old friends who were long time supporters of their churches saying that post pandemic they will be with Max among the dones, or only attending their small group Bible study or Sunday School.
FWIW, wiki puts Taiwan’s Christian population at under 6%
Max, are you sporting a mullet now? Inquiring minds want to know! 😉
readingalong,
My dad had me cut his hair once a few months ago, but I felt super uncomfortable about it. He wants something very specific. I used to buzz cut my brother’s hair after he got out of the Marines, but that’s not too hard.
I cut mine from long to a pixie during quarantine, so it was pretty extreme. But for the shorter cut, I mostly use thinning shears so it goes slowly and I can control it a lot easier.
JDV,
S. Korea, a democracy with free speech & a notable church population, has 14 deaths per 1M population. (USA approaching 1K deaths per 1M.) It would be helpful to know how they do it.
Caring about the life & death of others (social welfare*) as well as attending to science (facts over myth*), over and above temporary personal inconvenience (individual liberty & choice*) seem to be part of the mix.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
*It’s Christmas, so I mention that in our home we choose (individual freedom) to celebrate the virgin birth of Jesus (some say myth), which in no way endangers others (social welfare). It seems faith & science can work together, with neither fact-denying nor harm.
Part of how they did it was large-scale low-barrier-to-participation testing of the population in order to identify (modulo the inescapable issue of false-negatives) potentially contagious people.
It may have helped that their initial outbreak was dominated by a gigantic superspreading phenomenon (that, IIRC, involved a relatively small number of people accounting for a large fraction of the transmission events). This made the outbreak relatively easy to trace to its origin and also focused the attention of the authorities on the possibility of extremely rapid spread.
US had undetected relatively slow community spread for weeks before the first nation-wide public health advisory in early-ish March (the 11th, IIRC, with a national address by the President).
US had serious problems in its testing capacity for a prolonged period afterwards, something about defective reagents making the PCR tests not work properly. At the time, it was suggested that US adopt tests already in use in other countries, which were working better. For some reason, it was preferred to wait until US-sourced tests were working properly.
National stockpiles of PPE were inadequate (and in some cases not useable without repair — dry rot in elastic in masks, for example).
————
A paradox of effective public health policy is that it will always look like it is costing too much for the protection it provides. If successful, the PH policy will prevent disasters, and engender a false sense of security in the population, leading for calls to reduce PH expenditure, since the threat environment does not look very intimidating.
Hopefully we will learn from present experience and do better in the future, until memory fades again, as it did regarding the 1918-1920 ‘flu pandemic.
Ava Aaronson,
But that approach does not get you attention, or people ranting about what a Man/women of G$d you are! Just watched a couple of more clips on You Tube about good old JohnnyMac…. boy, some people real do idolize him…
This one guy on his You Tube channel was going on and on about all the scientific facts and statistics JohnnyMac gets and how great it is he is not one dimensional! Scientific facts? Really… roll eyes, and sigh..
Sorry, no mullet. Just a classic scissor cut, but with a different barber. I was a little apprehensive about going to my daughter’s beauty shop, rather than the barber shop I used for years … but my old barber was anti-mask, anit-vax to the stupid point. It appears that the new normal may mean nothing will ever be normal again.
Chollywood.
Lights, Camera, Action!
Book$, Conference, Vid$!
Spiked hair, Skinny jeans, Pricey shoes.
One thing I am finding peculiarly absent in all this discussion of politics and which humans jumped on this COVID thing rightly and early and so has been doing better than others is a discussion on why God has put this pandemic here now. If we believe the Gospel then all of our political leaders are to be expected to be exceeding foolish for not going to God right away and asking for His Wisdom. The least anyone should be able to say is that God is obviously trying to get our attention and draw us up to look to him.
In the O.T. you can see God asking the help of lying spirits in order to accomplish things we might be tempted to call evil. You see this with an evil king of God’s own people being lured out to battle to be killed. In this way God may be steering some of our truly agnostic leaders into doing the wrong thing. I am finding the political arguments here to be rather pointless. God is the one we really need to pay attention to and not our narcissist political leaders. In the long run we are all going to suffer and die apart from Him.
If I may be suffered to inject a bit of levity …
regarding hair-styles, there is always the lowest-effort option of all, the “Severus Snape” look. IIRC, it was a curtain of greasy hair all ’round.
This probably also is highly useful from the standpoint of motivating others to “physically-distance” themselves from you.
Samuel Conner,
Why do Navy uniforms have a flap on the back:
https://www.google.com/search?q=why+do+navy+uniforms+have+a+flap&rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS928US928&oq=why+navy+uniforms+has+&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0i22i30i457j0i22i30.13482j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-my-once-apolitical-church-became-the-house-of-trump?ref=home
Max, & Dee
I was kidding about the scurvy – it’s a nod to the fact that fruit & vegetables may get scarcer as food shortages bite due to closed borders & Brexit.
Max, the vaccine is only just being rolled out, local 90+ yr olds got theirs almost a week ago so I don’t know how they’d know yet – I’m sure they’ll find a way to figure it out fast. It’d be great to know though. Does anyone know if all the current vaccines were made to the same exact strain of Covid? I’m assuming there’s a kind of Ground Zero strain & then its newer variants.
I believe that the US mRNA vaccines (Pfizer and Moderna) are based on the reported genetic sequence of an envelope protein — the spike protein — that was provided (I think by the Chinese medical authorities) much earlier in the year. Those two presumably are very similar in the sense of “the strain that provided the template for the vaccine.” I’ve seen no reports of study of possible variation in viral RNA for this protein since then, though I imagine it is a matter of concern and is being watched.
BeakerN,
That is also why a slang for British sailors is “limey”!
As to hair: started cutting dh’s hair in the spring. Just took off x amount all around following what the barber had done. Still doing that every 6 weeks now, and he likes it so much he says he doesn’t plan to return to a barber shop. Me, I grew from a pixie in the spring to a slightly below the hair line bob. Trimming it myself. Plan to return to my long hair for ease, although if I had good shoulders and was gifted at this it would be a pixie.
” … the latest clinical advice is that it is highly unlikely that this mutation would fail to respond to a vaccine. The vaccine produces antibodies against many regions in the spike protein, and it is unlikely a single change would make the vaccine less effective …”
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/new-strain-coronavirus-vaccine-still-work-explained-b311553.html
South Korea has a population that is over 27 percent Christian in various flavors. The largest percentage is “none” at 56 percent of the population. SK has done a very good job of keeping down the number of infections and deaths, but they did have an early problem with a super spreader who went to an out there Evangelical church and the government cane down hard on the organization. I think the leader wad arrested at one point.
Korea can do this because the government is pretty much up in the people’s business in ways that Americans would not accept. They still have mandatory military service, which is a big deal since the seven members of BTS (aged from 23 to 28) have not done their service yet. BTS is one of Korea’s biggest exports. Early this month BTS was brought in under an existing law which added K-pop star to prominent athletes and classical musicians allowed to defer their service until after age 30 by presidential decree.
But seriously, could you see something like that here in the USA?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giM04ESUiGw
That discussion is absent because we are not blaming God for this bad pandemic. Nor are we giving God credit for this good pandemic.
Granted, God does get credit for boils and whatnot in Hebrew Scriptures. But you seem to be implying that God uses mass death to communicate, or that we deserve this, or something.
Please stop. This is a virus from nature that crossed into the human population. It was not caused by teh gayz or yoga pants or failure to tithe or lack of patriotism. It will not go away if we repent—unless repentance consists of Zoom worship, social distancing, hand washing, mask wearing, and accepting the vaccine if it continues to prove safe and effective.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
Great insight, thanks.
I would point out that Americans have a tradition of lazy thinking when other countries, particularly Asian or Communist ones, manage to do something better than Americans. “Of course the Koreans got that under control. Everybody’s Korean there!” “Of course the East Germans did X. Otherwise they would have been…” etc. The subtext is that diversity and freedom make it impossible for Americans to face hardship or solve problems. Or common ethnicity somehow makes people cooperate. Or oppression works, goldernit!
This is NOT what you are saying. I mention it because it’s germane in this discussion: the Other Guys don’t want to cooperate. Always the Other Guys, never our own side.
Both cabbage and potatoes are an excellent source of vitamin C, which stops scurvy in its tracks. I don’t do butter, so I garnish mine with soy-sauce and black pepper after they emerge from the steamer.
Is the church being the salt of the earth?
How can the church be the salt of the earth in a pandemic?
What kind of difference does the church make?
The Body of Christ: neither Jew nor Greek, traversing all borders. The Church is a border-less community with one Leader, Jesus, only one Spiritual Director Guide, the HS. WWJD in a pandemic? Can we share/help each other? In an apolitical fashion …
It would be amazing if the Church could pull together in this pandemic, to effectively save lives, even in small numbers, but effectively, in each member of the Body of Christ’s local community. How can we share insights, learn from, and help each other – beyond what we read in the MSM?
Australia’s stats are also more encouraging than the stats in the USA. Wonder what they are doing? Would their believers be willing to share with those in the US?
The stats (in all of the free press areas where one assumes veracity) are curious. What is working? https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Isn’t there a TWW reader who comments under “teaching in Japan”. Wonder what is happening in Japan, boots on the ground.
BeakerN,
I must be living in a parallel UK. EU border policy demands conformity with only minor variations allowed (that don’t alter the flow of migration between member states). Add to that the decisions of the European Court of Human Rights prevent any member state from taking its own route. EU asylum policy is a mess and agreements like the Dublin Convention are frequently ignored. So less of the political bias and more of the thoughtful comment would enhance the discussion.
Michael in UK,
The original projection in March of 550,000 was quickly discredited and withdrawn, only to be replaced by an equally absurd figure of 22,000. The actual number of deaths is 67,401.
Our (now former) pastor cited covid misinformation during a sermon. When I diplomatically asked the source of his information, I was told to “be more in the Word instead of the World.” Made me wonder how much time he’d been spending in the Word, given what it tends to say about plagues.
(To clarify, I do not think God sends/sent plagues to punish people. Just that the pastor’s response was ironic, among other things.)
I am not from Australia, but…..
At one point, there was an increase in COVID in Melbourne, Australia, due to some quarantine issues. Melbourne went into an extended lockdown that was far stricter than the current restrictions in Canada, the United States, and many other democratic countries.
There was complaining (to put it politely) by some of the people in Melbourne, but as a result of the extended strict lockdown, they got their COVID well under control.
In Sydney, Australia, there has been a recent COVID outbreak. They are imposing a number of strict measures, including mandatory quarantine and border blocks.
If the Sydney lockdown is as successful as was the Melbourne lockdown, I am guessing the people in Sydney will get back to something more closely approaching “normal” in the same way as happened in Melbourne.
In a direct action, I don’t think God had anything to do with it.
I think it’s simply the result of human stupidity.
Exotic meats were never meant for human consumption, and standard Science strongly suggests that the Covid-19 virus jumped to humans in the ‘wet-markets’ of Wuhan China.
My sense is that if one wants to interpret the bad outcomes theologically, Romans 1 provides a useful frame of reference. “Darkened understanding” leads to choices that can have negative lived outcomes.
The Romans 1 language of “giving over” could be interpreted in a more active sense, but I think it also admits of a more passive or permissive “have it your way” interpretation.
It’s a bit chilling to think that this process, which Paul sees at work among pagans of his day, might take place in our day in self-described churches. OTOH, the OT history of Israel is not that different from this.
IIRC, Proverbs counsels that “if you can only get one thing, get wisdom. It’s a life-saver”.
Here is a link to ScienceMag which discusses what is known about the virus so far
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/12/mutant-coronavirus-united-kingdom-sets-alarms-its-importance-remains-unclear
Friend,
This is what mostly happens here during the various shutdowns.
This has been happening all along, without fanfare.
My congregation has Zoom worship—two services a week and a virtual coffee hour. We obey state emergency regs and denominational practices. Several months ago we got a thoughtful survey of members about our needs, concerns, and preferences. A socially distanced outdoor service was added. I had a pastoral need earlier in the year and received lovely support by phone.
The SBC church near our home is doing things in much the same way. They have added an indoor service with strict safety protocols—as proven by photos and livestream.
Lowlandseer,
Thank you!
And now Dr Fauci is saying we don’t need any new travel restrictions for people flying from the UK even though they have a new strain that could be 70% more contagious.
Mr. Jesperson,
Mr J, it was the duty of christians to pray for just quality of government. People have gut feelings but because of their false vow to listen too hard to their congregation “leaders”, never articulate themselves but let “leaders” give them false articulation. It’s God’s intention that the weight of all Christians should count in church. Holy Scripture is addressed (especially) to the church not (much) outsiders.
It’s been all over the news for months. It was definitely true where I live in the early months. More smaller stores have been opening, but only the ones that did not permanently go out of business. Meanwhile, the large chains have been doing quite well. If you have other info can you post a link?
Thank you for providing the link to the ScienceMag article….it was fascinating to read….yet even as I read, my heart was breaking….
The Roman Catholic archdiocese in Washington, DC, sued the city to have indoor worship limits increased or lifted. The mayor lifted the cap. That was five days ago. The cardinal, whom I otherwise respect, today published the already timeworn arguments. I am sure that other churches will take heart and likewise sue their local officials:
“But praying apart is not the same as praying together. We recently brought legal action to protect the free exercise of religion in the nation’s capital. This was a last resort, as we could no longer bear the burden of turning away the faithful from Mass due to D.C.’s 50-person cap on religious services when big-box stores, retailers, and even liquor stores and many other venues continued to operate without similar limits. The right of the faithful to assemble for religious services is one of our most cherished constitutional legacies, and we maintain it should be treated as an “essential” activity — just as D.C. regards shopping and so many other activities as essential. We simply ask that religious worship be treated in the same way so that we may continue to worship together and serve those in need. (D.C. Mayor Muriel E. Bowser (D) subsequently eased the 50-person cap on Dec. 16.)”
The cardinal does not mention unemployment in his piece. I am not sure what “many other venues” he is describing. Few or no fans attended professional baseball, basketball, hockey, or soccer games in DC this year. The whole Smithsonian system is closed, as is the Kennedy Center. We can’t look at copies of the original Constitution right now because the National Archives buildings are closed. Nursing home residents are only allowed to see visitors outdoors. But sure, “many other venues.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/cardinal-wilton-gregory-dc-covid-church-suit/2020/12/21/1b5fe268-43be-11eb-b0e4-0f182923a025_story.html
50 appears to be the right number. Do you know how it turned out to be 50 rather than something like 47 or 56, or any other number?
This big-versus-small thing is not an issue in my state or neighboring states. A town near me gave up Main Street parking to create outdoor dining. The state dug deep, continued unemployment benefits, structured grants and loans for small businesses. We are silent partners in a tiny business that made careful decisions, adapted, and is thriving. The region is struggling but getting by.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
Sorry, I don’t know DC’s regs about this.
In a lot of places, the reg is something like “25% of capacity or 50 people, whichever is less.” The discussion might be more interesting if they introduced the square root of pi… but that would be irrational. 😉
50 is now a very widespread standard. I’m wondering if it was chosen through statistical analyais, gut feeling, or something else.
Friend,
Good one Friend.
Max,
Max,
Tuning in to all the online megas in our city on the weekend, we can see they all simultaneously perform the format & formula as depicted in your vid. The pastors wear the same wardrobe & sometimes preach the same canned repertoire.
If we follow the tithe-your-$$$ mandate as prescribed by the $$$-changer-in-the-temple guru in the next post, we can $upport this schtick.
This is wonderful & encouraging. Thanks for sharing.
Lowlandseer,
So how are so many members of the EU doing their own thing with stopping travel from the UK into their countries without enforced centralisation?
And it is thoughtful consideration that has led to any political bias I display that you disagree with. Being thoughtful & choosing a ‘side’ are far from mutually exclusive. I hope in fact that that’s how we’ve all chosen our positions.
This mess was highly predictable, because Boris Johnson has a prior record as long as your arm. I hope God chooses to help us because we are sorely going to need it in the coming months, particularly those of us who are poor, sick or vulnerable.
Friend,
My church (Romish Popery with Satanic Death Cookies, so not REALLY Christian) has been doing Livestream Masses since the first flareup in March. As things eased up over the summer, they added outdoor open-air Masses with limited capacity. Masks mandatory. Those over 65 or with high-risk conditions told to stay at home and use the livestreams. (“Special Dispensation” from the Bishops, which is the way it’s done in our False Apostate “Church” Bureaucracy.)
“Southern Chinese will eat anything on four legs except the table. (And we’re not sure about the table.)”
— Northern Chinese saying (Southern and Northern Chinese do NOT get along)
You’ve told us that at length before, from your Private Revelations and Visions.
That’s why you shook our Scoffer dust off your feet and went Silent a couple months ago.
By someone who was Of the World but Not In It.
i.e. You key the vaccine and its induced immune response to key on a part of the Virus which DOESN’T mutate. Since the Spike Protein is what allows the virus to enter/infect a cell, if the Spike Protein mutates to where the vaccine won’t affect it, it’s probably mutated to where it is NOT infectious.
That said, if COVID becomes a long-term problem, the next gen of vaccines will probably target another identifying protein unique to the virus’s surfect. If not MULTIPLE viral signature proteins.
More like “NO! I! WON’T! AND YOU!! CAN’T!! MAKE!! ME!! NYAAAAH!!!!!!!!!!”
Poopy diapers and all.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Thanks. I’m glad your mob is getting it right, and not leaning on people to show up.
I did not mean to imply that the whole Roman Catholic Church was endangering worshipers. It’s just so disappointing to see large denominations using their credibility to claim that worshiping indoors is as essential as, say, buying a winter coat or medicine or a tarp for a leaky roof.
dee,
I’m in the US, but here’s some clarity about the covid variant spotted in the UK, and why travel bans might not be the best solution:
Several top infectious-disease experts said Monday the variant may not have originated in the United Kingdom. Instead, it may have been identified there first because the United Kingdom has a robust monitoring system that has examined tens of thousands of genomic sequences of virus samples.
The United States has lagged in sequencing and does not have nearly the same level of virus surveillance.
“It may very well be here. It may have even started here. The sequencing in the U.S. is so sporadic,” said Jeremy Luban, a virologist at the University of Massachusetts Medical School.
“It makes sense that it was detected first in the U.K. because they have probably the world’s best surveillance program. It would not shock me at all to find out that it also is circulating in the U.S.,” said Angela Rasmussen, a virologist at the Georgetown Center for Global Health Science and Security.
She added that the coronavirus already in the United States is spreading easily, and a new variant will not change the need for people to follow public health guidance. A travel ban affecting flights from the United Kingdom might make little difference, she said.
“I don’t think a travel ban is going to be particularly helpful. We already have out-of-control transmission of all the variants that are circulating in the U.S. here,” she said.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/us-officials-debate-travel-bans-as-coronavirus-variant-spreads-in-britain/2020/12/21/8f3f5c8a-43c9-11eb-a277-49a6d1f9dff1_story.html
While I had considered the virus that causes COVID might mutate in many ways, I had not considered it might mutate to the point where it is no longer infectious. Wouldn’t it be great if the same possibility of mutating to the point of becoming non-infectious could be applied to some of the “Biblical” infections in the “church”?
And I had considered multiple generations of COVID-virus-related vaccines. For example, the flu vaccine already has some trivalent or quadrivalent options. Wouldn’t it be great if the same possibility of having multiple vaccine options could be applied to some of the “Biblical” infections in the “church”?
Praying for the vulnerable around the globe. In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, live Jesus in our hearts & lives, forever. May we collectively defend the weak & the fatherless; stand up for the just cause of the poor & the oppressed. Psalm 82.3.
The food shelves in our area are the busiest ever. Fortunately, donations are meeting demand. Just cause.
Amen to that.
Ava Aaronson,
Is 55, 58, 61, James, parables, feeding of thousands, crown, last 21 verses of Proverbs.
This, in Holy Spirit power for living without codependency, is the “what comes next”.
The “prehistoric” figure from what struck me as true experts, on the ball in January was 200,000 so it went up in March and down after. I must have misread the table but we were recently told the deaths here from it were about 200,000 (half as much again as a bad flu year figure but nowhere near 1919). What you’ve pointed out is extra heartening. That is not the worst figure for a bad flu year (and flu happened to be better this year). But I fear (almost certainly on sound grounds) there will be many long term complications which is why I wish this had been taken far more seriously sooner as well as measures aimed better. Medicines now for the chronic cases would be even better than some day (though any time would be better than never) – those are always dishonestly rationed whatever the virus.
Michael in UK,
Additionally, a major church leader abolished communion (trying to make it a false vow) and subsidiarity, and prior to that his predecessors abolished belief and prayer. God sees under the surface (and so do I, but that is pure coincidence).
Yes.
On the never-ending saga of Hillsong …
https://nypost.com/2020/12/23/ex-hillsong-members-claim-church-is-cult-with-slave-labor/
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Knowing where the misinformation originated from and has been disseminated from, I’m pretty sure he’s also IN the world.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
Interesting you should bring this up. As a physician practicing in North Dakota for the last 35 years I cannot recall seeing a normal vitamin D level in the winter months on any of my patients who were not taking a vitamin D supplement. Our winters are much longer than our summers. We have had the highest COVID rate in the nation if not the world. I agree it does not prove causation but it certainly is interesting.
Here are some of my random thoughts on it as a non medical person. It seems to me that many peoplw are looking for a silver bullet, but I suspect there will be no one thing that solves the problem. The only reason we are worried about COVID is because of how dangerous it is combined with how contagious it is. If the impact were no worse than the common cold it never would have gotten attention. One way of tackling it is through limiting it’s spread by either avoiding it (masking, distancing, etc.), or acquiring immunity. But it also seems reasonable to pursue means to make it less dangerous either through better treatment options or through equipping the body to be less reactive. The latter does not appear to be getting as much attention as it might deserve.
Here is an interesting article on the impact of sleep and using melatonin: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/12/covid-19-sleep-pandemic-zzzz/617454/
Remember the RCC is the largest and oldest of “large denominations”.
I was diagnosed with Vitamin D deficiency (“nerd scurvy”) several years ago and have been on 5000 IU (125mcg) ever since.
My last birthday also put me into the high-risk category. And “Everybody Lock Down! Forever!” just means we all stay indoors year-round, eating takeout/delivery, watching our Vit D levels go down as we wait to be infected.
I have also been following the Vit D/COVID collation on YouTube’s MedCram (medical lectures) and Dr John Campbell (retired experienced non-MD medical type in England) channels. I think there’s something to it — at the very least, it could give you an edge against the virus. Otherwise, we just sit quietly with folded hands waiting to be infected, hosptialized, intubated, and dead.
Problem is, by the time any studies finish that could actually prove it, the refrigerated trailers will be over-full. Like the Markab Plague in Babylon-5, where they found a vaccine and cure — after ALL the Markab were dead.
I had never heard of the term “nerd scurvy”, but for me it would have been a very apt phrase….I live far enough up north to get insufficient direct sunlight, and I spend most of my time indoors. I have been taking 5000 IU of vitamin D for many years.
researcher,
I don’t know who came up with the term “nerd scurvy”, but I heard it a couple times and like the sound of it.
Should escalation virus impact keep indoor religious services closed?
Yes it should Sopy.
And if churches (broadly brushed and diverse) don’t have enough common sense and concern for society at large to police themselves, the law is not an ass (a Dickensian metaphor), and is well within its legitimate domain and prerogative to prohibit indoor gatherings.
AMEN! Public health restrictions, and their enforcement, do not go contrary to the laws of God. This is not a moral issue, or perhaps it is – IMO, the behavior of ministers and ministries are approaching immoral status when they endanger the citizenry of a community through rebellion of laws designed to help them not hurt them. This is not persecution of the church, for God’s sake … real persecuted Christians in other parts of the world would tell the American church that! They would gladly love to live in the U.S., put on a mask, social distance, and avoid meeting in the midst of a plague to enjoy the religious freedom we experience in this country.
Is this a trick question?! Religious maniacs would shout “No!” while most American Christians would say “Of course!” (IMHO)
I think one could argue that there is New Testament precedent, in Paul’s writings to the church at Corinth, for the possibility that a church’s meetings could “do more harm than good.”
Ah … yes, there it is: 1 Cor 11:17
I’m guessing that, were we able to query the great Apostle about our present emergency, he would be firmly on the side of the public authorities.
A case for restricting church gatherings during pandemics could be made in reference to verse 30 of that chapter:
“Careless participation is the reason many of you are weak and sickly, and quite enough of you have fallen into the sleep of death.” (1 Corinthians 11:30 AMP)
Since church meetings have been the source of COVID super-spreaders in some communities, I have no doubt that Paul would shout “Time out!”. The early church just had more common sense than we do in this regard … 21st century churchgoers often abuse their Christian liberties in one way or another. Where’s Paul when you need him?!
As I reflect on the poor spiritual condition of the churches in my community, I see nothing going on in any of them worth risking my life over.
“When you pray, don’t be like the play-actors. They love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at street-corners so that people may see them at it. Believe me, they have had all the reward they are going to get. But when you pray, go into your own room, shut your door and pray to your Father privately. Your Father who sees all private things will reward you.” (Matthew 6:5-6 Phillips)
(I’m done with Christianity Lite, the Christian Industrial Complex, and business as usual in the local church … but not done with Jesus)