Carl Lentz, Hypepriest, Gets Canned From Hillsong Due to an Affair. He’ll Be Back.

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“A celebrity is any well-known TV or movie star who looks like he spends more than two hours working on his hair.” Steve Martin


I am not a fan of Hillsong. It appears that Brian Houston was aware that his father, Frank, who started Hillsong sexually abused children in the church. It is alleged that Brian Houston, now the leader of Hillsong, covered up this sexual abuse. Here is a quick review of what occurred from Wikipedia.

In 2015, the royal commission examined allegations that accused Brian Houston of concealing his father’s crimes and censured him for failing to report his father to the police.[79][78]:12:30 In November 2018, 60 Minutes aired a segment revisiting the sexual abuse scandal, because newly revealed documentation allegedly reveals that Brian Houston was deeply involved in a cover-up and that Frank Houston’s abusive behaviour was worse than initially thought.[78] Brian Houston allegedly used his position within the Assemblies of God in Australia denomination to conceal his father’s serial child sexual abuse.[78] The matter was referred to the New South Wales Police Force, which confirmed that Brian Houston was under criminal investigation for failing to report a serious crime.[75][78]:14:01 Following the 60 Minutes story, Hillsong released a statement in response to the allegations.[76]

Houston and Hillsong deny these allegations. However, in 2019, Houston was not allowed at a White House dinner when he accompanied the Australian Prime Minister to the US. Why Was Brian Houston, Hillsong, Allegedly Not Allowed at White House Dinner Given for the Aussie Prime Minister Scott Morrison? Abuse Coverup Maybe? In my post, I have included a video of a member of Parliament excoriating Houston.

There have been a number of other allegations aimed at Hillsong which you can read about in the linked Wikipedia article.

Carl Lentz: Hypepriest to the stars

Today, I want to focus on the fact that Brian Houston fired Carl Lentz who was the pastor of the celebrity-studded Hillsong New York since it was founded a decade ago. Christianity Today posted  Fired Hillsong NYC Pastor Carl Lentz Apologizes for Infidelity

Lentz, 41, was one of a number of pastors GQ Magazine has described as “hypepriests” who lead churches frequented by celebrities. Friends and congregants include Justin Bieber and his wife, Hailey Baldwin Bieber, as well as the Jenner sisters.

In fact, the following should cause all Christians to take a pause. This is the article in GQ: Hypepriests: The Grail-Wearing Pastors Who Dress Like Justin Bieber

…Justin Bieber and his favorite pastors have all started wearing the same mega-hyped clothes. What happens when a church becomes a streetwear brand?

…Lentz runs Hillsong, the “cool church” made famous by its famous millennial parishioners including Bieber, Lucky Blue Smith, the Jenner sisters, Hailey Baldwin, and more. When Bieber tagged along with the crew earlier this month at the church’s annual conference in Australia, and as he appeared with Lentz at various clubs, stores, and restaurants over the past weeks, it was nearly impossible not to notice something: if Bieber is taking increasing guidance from his spiritual leaders, he’s taking sartorial lessons from them, too. Or they’re learning from your boy Biebs.

…Either way, Justin Bieber and his pastors are dressing identically. They are having a ball glorying in god. They want to be “better at 70,” which, if I’m being honest, feels like a pretty low bar to clear. (Just be better now! Or at 40!) But what they really want, it seems, is to dress like pop stars on vacation.

…Carl Lentz, styled-up pastor to the stars, wears pieces from the highly coveted Louis Vuitton-Supreme collaboration. He wears what appear to be Kanye affiliate Don C’s customized basketball shorts. He wears those skinny sweatpants with drawstrings so long that I’m not sure how one would avoid peeing on them.

…It appears as if the hipster pastor has evolved. It’s no longer enough to no-comment gay marriage while wearing a biker jacket. Instead, you need to do it while wearing skater socks. Aggressive glasses. Very long drawstrings. Bieber merch. The hipster pastor is dead, and into the void strides someone new. He’s a man god-fearing and Fear of God-wearing in equal measure. Call him The Hypepriest.

…But being a Hypepriest is about more than just looking cool. It is also about marketing. The fact that these guys minister to celebrities—themselves under an increasingly sharp fashion microscope, thanks to paparazzi photographers, gossip outlets, and a host of Instagram-based outfit trackers—

… And if what’s trending is the freedom to wear your own logo across your chest (and down your sleeves, and across the hem of your shorts, and up the sides of your socks), it also follows that the Hypepriest marks an evolutionary high point in branding.

Let’s take a look at the *style* of Lentz. In 2017, this picture was making the rounds on Twitter.  Stock News calls him the World’s Sexiest Preacher. Here he is walking with his former BFF Justin Bieber. I can’t seem to find out why Bieber dumped Lentz but it happened before the current crisis.

11/9/20: I have decided that the photo is so gross that I have removed it. Follow the above link to Stock News. You’ll see what I mean.

update 11/13/20 The picture appears to have disappeared from Stock News USA

 Carl Lentz had an affair and got fired, for now…

At first, Brian Houston did not say what Lentz had done. Of course, social media, including People magazine, breathlessly reported his firing. Here is a link to Brian Houston’s email that was sent to the church.

Today Hillsong Church East Coast advised our congregation that we have terminated the employment of Pastor Carl Lentz.

…This action has been taken following ongoing discussions in relation to leadership issues and breaches of trust, plus a recent revelation of moral failures.

…It would not be appropriate for us to go into detail about the events that led to this decision. Our focus at this time is to honor God and pastorally care for our East Coast church community as well as the Lentz family.

In his initial statement, Houston went with the typical *no gossip*  rule. It did not appear he was going to tell the world about the sins of Lentz.

Carl Lentz fired from Hillsong due to ‘leadership issues, moral failures’

Please understand that it would not be appropriate for us to go into detail about the events that led to this decision. However you can be assured that this decision was made in order to honor God and pastorally care for you, our East Coast family, Pastor Carl and his family.”

Then, Carl Lentz admitted to an affair on Instagram.

Here is a link to his Instagram statement.

The Daily Mail UK reported that he had an affair with an unidentified podcaster.

it was rumored Lentz had been hooking up with a popular NYC-based podcaster

Lentz will be back. He’s got the celebrity vote.

Lecrae, responding to the announcement on Christian Post, said:

Lecrae wrote, “God restores.”

This means, of course, this is no biggie to Lecrae and friends.  Lentz is a far bigger celebrity and dresses so well. than Lecrae and homage must be paid to our betters in the Christian celebrity world.

Brian Houston had this to say. I think he was hinting that they already know what will happen.

“We thank Pastors Carl and Laura for the way they have served faithfully and sacrificially since the start of Hillsong NYC and for contributing so significantly to the countless lives that have been transformed for Jesus Christ through this ministry,” he added. “They have a heart for people and we are confident that after a time of rest and restoration, God will use Carl in another way outside of Hillsong church. In terminating his tenure, we in no way want to diminish the good work he did here.”

My predictions:

  • Lentz appears enamored of his style, looks, and sexuality.
  • I believe that more dalliances and other issues will eventually hit the media.
  • Brian Houston should have been aware that something was up with Lentz. I knew it when I saw the picture a few years back.
  • These hypepriests have made a mockery of the church yet they are supported by people like Lecrae and Kari Jobe.
  • The Gospel Coalition and SWBTS will start selling Bieber shirts. Do you think they’ll sell his low rise jeans as well?

Comments

Carl Lentz, Hypepriest, Gets Canned From Hillsong Due to an Affair. He’ll Be Back. — 159 Comments

  1. Oh my gosh!!!! I know I live a sheltered life, but that picture of Lenz……disgusting!!!! Is he saying he only had one affair?? He is advertising all of himself for one reason only – luring and lusting after the lust of others. SO NASTY. How the Lord must be grieved and angered at this twisted man.

  2. This is weird that they made it sound like they just found out about this and decided to fire him at once. That’s not even biblical according to Matthew 18:15-17 which churches love to “teach” when a leader falls from grace. This has to have been going on for years and then something finally happened that was the last drop…

  3. I swear these stories get sicker as time goes on.

    “Behold, darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people” (Isaiah 60:2)

  4. Muff Potter: How did Christianity get this commercialized?

    I’m not even going to tell you about how Catholic religious orders fought over the physical relics of saints, including their bodies. Teresa of Avila is mostly buried in a convent in Alba de Tormes, Spain…you know, except for that right foot and part of her upper jaw now in Rome, the left hand in Lisbon, the left eye and right hand which were in Ronda (and which Franco captured during the Spanish civil war and kept with him until his death), her left arm and heart, in a church in Alba de Tormes, one finger in a church in Paris, and one finger in Sanlucar, Spain.

    No less an eminence than John Calvin had this to say about pieces of the True Cross that were floating around at the beginning of the Reformation.

    There is no abbey so poor as not to have a specimen. In some places there are large fragments, as at the Holy Chapel in Paris, at Poitiers, and at Rome, where a good-sized crucifix is said to have been made of it. In brief, if all the pieces that could be found were collected together, they would make a big ship-load. Yet the Gospel testifies that a single man was able to carry it.

    Today we need to dress like our idols and carry the same big leather Bibles they carried, but not much has changed.

  5. Men keep trying to serve two masters and this is the inevitable outcome. The blindness we have to big money afflicts so many. You just cannot serve God and Money or God and Narcissism. The flashy narcissism is right there in your face, and yet so many refuse to call it what it so obviously is. A Christianity with no cross. A Christianity so full of worldliness that it fits right in with so much of what else the world is doing. This is a Christianity with no Christ. A faith with no faith. Charity with absolutely no true charity. Worship that is so self-focused that no actual worship exists. Hell is full of the likes of this kind of religion.

  6. Trying really hard to unsee that picture of a “pastor…”

    A photo or dress code like this would have been completely out-of-bounds in all of the public schools I attended. Just saying.

  7. Jeffrey Chalmers:
    That picture is almost obscene . . .

    Not almost. And if a pastor’s wife dressed that way you can be sure she would be excoriated for it. Was there much rebuke of him in this instance?

  8. As I scrolled up I said to myself Bieb dumped him because (he has got a mean face and) his nipples and arms are sagging. That was before –

    Countless lives transformed. Thank you for allowing us to “lead”.

  9. Wild Honey: Trying really hard to unsee that picture of a “pastor…”

    Yeah, that one is right up there with the infamous photo of Falwell Jr. and that gal with their pants unzipped. Perhaps the nasty photo of “Pastor” Lentz was taken at the same yacht party?

  10. Muff Potter,

    38 years ago I saw/experienced the commercialization of Christianity in “Campus Ministries”….. they very much implemented current “marketing principles” to “spread the Gospel”, and back then I had serious misgivings about ethics of that marketing, including being proud of “bate and switch” tactics ……

  11. When this stuff happens it seems to me that usually the little wifey stands by her man. Curious if his wife will stay with him……why do so many of these cheating men get away with it? Why would a wife tolerate it? I don’t understand!

  12. The thought occurs, in contemplation of that photo, that the OT was pretty concerned about not improperly “uncovering the skirts” of both males and females. Paul famously warned that in the churches there must not be even a hint of sexual uncleanness (or, it may be added, of greed).

    There’s even an OT regulation on what kind of clothing priests can wear in order to not give onlookers a point of prurient interest when the priest ascends a stairway to make an offering on an altar.

    The low-ride trend in lower-body garments seems plainly intended to stimulate prurient interest, and it’s a bit astonishing to me to see self-described christian ministers adopting this style of (un)dress.

    I would say that the adjective “christian” is being vacated of all semantical content.

  13. There’s so much hype in churches like this, what else would you call “Pastor” but Hypepriest?

  14. Jeffrey Chalmers: including being proud of “bate and switch” tactics ……

    Ah, yes … Campus Crusade for Christ. I got quite angry with the bait/switch tactic (a “scavenger hunt” excuse to go into dorms; the questionnaire transitioned to evangelistic concerns and this did not go un-noticed by the initially unsuspecting dorm residents) and vocally criticized it in a group debrief. Using a deceptive method to lure people into conversations about Jesus, whom we claim is the personification of Truth, seems self-defeating. To their credit, the local CCC staff were embarrassed when challenged about this.

    It was an early sign that I was not going to be able to remain in the Evangelical movement.

  15. Samuel Conner: a bit astonishing to me to see self-described christian ministers adopting this style of (un)dress

    Half-naked attire for a man of Gawd is a bit of a stretch to be culturally relevant, IMHO. “Drop your pants and they will come” is a strange evangelistic tool … but I stopped being amazed about the bizarre methodology of the American church years ago. Nothing surprises me anymore! Pissing Pastors and Prurient Hyperpriests in the same week! What next?!!

  16. Max: “Drop your pants and they will come” is a strange evangelistic tool

    – subjugate women and they will come …
    – turn up the volume of the band on stage and they will come …
    – associate with the country’s prez (“power”) and they will come …
    – hype the “cool crowd” and they will come …
    – go Hollywood and they will come …
    – reinvent Sunday worship as Vegas casino shows and they will come …
    – entertain and they will come …
    – cosplay trailer trash TV and they will come …
    – cheezy (but not cheap) tricks and they will come …

    Nothing to do with Jesus: Love God & your neighbor as yourself.

  17. “Lentz will be back.”

    Do they send fallen hypepriests to the same restoration retreat as regular bad-boy pastors … or is there a special place for such characters to launch unrepentant comebacks? The average bad-boy reappears within 12-18 months … will a hypepriest have an accelerated restoration to ministry?

    I repeat … actors would have no stage if they didn’t have an audience scrambling to buy tickets to their show. I predict: (1) a new and improved Lentz will emerge in 2021, (2) he will promise to never commit adultery again and to wear regular pants, (3) he will demonstrate ‘repentance’ by crying without tears, (4) he will be welcomed back to the pulpit with a standing ovation, and (5) the beat will go on in Christianity Lite where shallow people swim in shallow water (but the music is great!)

  18. I am reminded of the OT text that prophetically says of Messiah Jesus that “there was nothing in his appearance to draw us to him.”

    It has been suggested that Jesus may have been of homely appearance. People were attracted by the beauty of his character and the manifest mercy of God that he was showing to sufferers (and, of course, some were offended and repelled and so judged themselves).

    IIRC, Dee has repeatedly commented on the sexualization of public ministry (skinny jeans, etc). This seems to me to have the effect of drawing attention away from the Creator and focusing it on the creature. It’s a kind of idolatry. It shouldn’t surprise us that this doesn’t stop with mere appearances, but extends into evil acts as well.

    Ichabod.

  19. Ava Aaronson,

    You took the words out of my mouth!

    It’s another gospel which is not the Gospel … church which is not Church … a kingdom of mere men, not the Kingdom of God.

  20. Samuel Conner: Ichabod …

    … fell on the American church years ago. It is now “the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit” in many places.

  21. Muff Potter:
    How did Christianity get this commercialized?

    Christian Industrial Complex, hirelings grievous wolves, winsomely sheared sheep come to mind as a toxic combo…

    Phil. 3:18-19 — “For many are walking—of whom I have told you often and now I say even weeping—as enemies of the cross of Christ, whose end is destruction, whose god is the belly and glory is in their shame, those minding earthly things.“

  22. Max:
    I swear these stories get sicker as time goes on.

    “Behold, darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people” (Isaiah 60:2)

    2 Timothy 3:12-13 “And all also desiring to live piously in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. But evil men and imposters will advance to worse, deceiving and being deceived.“

  23. JDV: imposters will advance to worse, deceiving and being deceived

    Lentz falls in that category … nothing Christlike about this bad-boy. “But, man, he can sure preach!” will come the cry from thousands of loyal followers! The problem with deception is you don’t you are deceived because you are deceived.

  24. Samuel Conner:
    The thought occurs, in contemplation of that photo, that the OT was pretty concerned about not improperly “uncovering the skirts” of both males and females. Paul famously warned that in the churches there must not be even a hint of sexual uncleanness (or, it may be added, of greed).

    There’s even an OT regulation on what kind of clothing priests can wear in order to not give onlookers a point of prurient interest when the priest ascends a stairway to make an offering on an altar.

    The low-ride trend in lower-body garments seems plainly intended to stimulate prurient interest, and it’s a bit astonishing to me to see self-described christian ministers adopting this style of (un)dress.

    I would say that the adjective “christian” is being vacated of all semantical content.

    All of this, including the last sentence, touches on an area of emphasis in the mission/outreach field in terms of cultural contextualization, compatibility etc. there appears to be a widening of the approach of incorporating elements of culture rather than going to override mode that marked some earlier versions of outreach, e.g., your name used to be this, now it’s John or Mary, and the other name must never be spoken or responded to ever again.

    The priority to resist nonessential overreaches that affect identity and culture appears to have also been combined with the freedom and liberty perspective as it goes to attire. Examples from scripture of such priorities could be proved texted as the only belonging to the specific recipient of the message at the time. That may be the case in some instances, while the greater evident message related to immortality or impurity — spoken shortly after being encouraged to be imitators of God — can fall low or off the priority list.

    When people align this closely with a worldly popular culture where singers and actors have provocative imaging and dress not only as a personal lifestyle expression but as a business model, how many are going to successfully walk that line, or dare to articulate where that is to their pop-culture pals — or from interviewers from secular and Christian quarters? Add this to the case study, along with the reported coverup history as it could relate to image molding and preservation, evidently for continued viability and marketability to hip sheared sheep

  25. Abigail: why do so many of these cheating men get away with it? Why would a wife tolerate it? I don’t understand!

    For that you will have to better understand narcissism in general. There is a bunch of manipulation and gas lighting that goes on. Many will feel threatened by the narcissistic rage and are intimidated and back down. Some fear for how the narcissist will manipulate their children to try to turn them against them. There are many videos and articles online that explain what happens by the people who end up dealing with the offended parties every day. Or you could get a hold of a book like Dr. Ramani’s “Should I stay or should I go?” Marrying a narcissist is like falling into a spiders web. It would be much easier
    to be wise and avoid it in the first place instead of trying to get out after you fallen for the whole web of deception.

  26. Samuel Conner: Proximity to power? We’ve seen that in other contexts.

    Was recently thinking along these lines about Mohler and the Dodeka “supper club”, with the potential of certain invitees to be part of the power structure.

    It could be that if they did a “where are they now” on all of the members — I mean, dinner pals, the majority would be involved in accountability, oversight, and transparency initiatives given the scandals reported in different institutional circles. It could be that they’re eschewing hefty salaries, book deals, and insular activities as they live simple, plain lives here or in challenging locales abroad for the sake of the a Great Commission.

    If instead, the majority were moving from one position of well-compensated and secure power to another with an interconnected coalition with certain marks, could anyone be surprised? The Sanhedrin vs. wilderness ministry paths may offer further likelihoods from history, including potentially as to the fruitfulness of given ministries. Perhaps the supper club had some discussions about that contrast, and what Jesus had to say about the state of each ministry at the time.

  27. JDV,

    Well said!

    US popular culture has fallen off the cliff of “worshipping the creature rather than the Creator”, and I think this is an area where the churches must be resolutely counter-cultural, even if that stance means that they will be numerically smaller and less financially and politically powerful.

    I also think that the Evangelical movement was probably destined to arrive at this place simply based on its understanding of “what ‘the Gospel’ is” and its core sense of its own mission — which obviously controls its choices of how to relate to the wider culture. I will probably weary people mentioning this again, but when you think that “the Gospel” is primarily about “how to avoid infinitely awful post-mortem punishments”, there is scarcely any compromise that will not eventually appear justified as a way of rescuing people from the terrible outcome one believes is in store for them.

    My above-mentioned sense of subjective offense at deceptive evangelism tactics employed by CCC doesn’t make much sense if it really is the case that these methods could help some people to escape an infinitely awful future. The evil of the method is finite, and the good it intends to accomplish is infinite — the “expectation value” of this compromise is infinitely positive.

    I think that the evangelical protestant churches will eventually be reconstructed or reconstituted on sounder principles, a sounder understanding of Scripture and a more historically contextualized understanding of “what ‘the Gospel’ was” in the preaching of Jesus and the apostles. IMO, NT Wright’s work may provide a glimpse of what that sounder understanding might be.

    It will be fascinating to see what the generation of theologians he has influenced will accomplish in and for the churches. I’m gloomy now, but the future may be brighter.

  28. Three words: Clergy Sexual Abuse
    That is my default assumption until there is contrary evidence, rather than accepting this was an affair. And it likely is not the only instance of CSA by Lentz.
    Was his wife also called a “pastor” at this church? That is common in these churches and the Houstons are both pastors. If so, notice how she also was fired for his sin although without any mention or thanks.

  29. JDV: Christian Industrial Complex, hirelings grievous wolves, winsomely sheared sheep come to mind as a toxic combo…

    In the context of other comments:

    “Winsomely sheared sheep seek proximity to hirelings grievous wolves’ power”

    – and voila, a 2020 USA “church”, IOW predators’ paradise hunting ground.

  30. Ava Aaronson: In the context of other comments:

    “Winsomely sheared sheep seek proximity to hirelings grievous wolves’ power”

    – and voila, a 2020 USA “church”, IOW predators’ paradise hunting ground.

    Complete with blunting or stigmatizing legitimate inquiries into questionable behavior ‘cuz authority, worthiness of the authoritarian and his vision, and so forth — all while the autocrat either devours sheep himself or covers up the activity for the sake of image and continued profitability, too often spun conveniently as the greater good ‘cuz of the wonderful work of the ministry. Water finds its own level, complete with predatory sharks.

  31. Afterburne: Was there much rebuke of him in this instance?

    Not as far as I could see. I commented on it back then. Dead silence. I felt it was worth pointing out that Lentz’s unusual behavior has been around for awhile.

  32. Michael in UK: Bieb dumped him because (he has got a mean face and) his nipples and arms are sagging. That was before –

    I’m still trying to figurte out what happened with the Bieb. I bet it was something obnoxious. on Lentz’s part.

  33. Abigail,

    I saw a picture in which they were having a fight. She was a pastor at Hillsong as well. It appears she was let go at the same time.

  34. Samuel Conner: I would say that the adjective “christian” is being vacated of all semantical content.

    Well said. Can you imagine God mandating the priests to dress like him in order to attract the Romans who liked celebrities like gladiators who fought in the nude.

  35. dee,

    Exactly……. ends justifies the means as been, and is, quite alive in modern Evangelicalism…

  36. Max: Do they send fallen hypepriests to the same restoration retreat as regular bad-boy pastors … or is there a special place for such characters to launch unrepentant comebacks?

    Don’t you think he would look good on the stage at Tullian’s church?

  37. JDV,

    I found this picture disgusting but i felt it was worth posting since it exemplifes what Lentz and the rest of the hypepriests are all about.

  38. JDV,

    Autocrats, IOW wolves, and the patronizing sheep who follow … they all find each other.

    Which is why the wolves, when exposed for who they are, rise again. Endless supply of Proximity to Power People, globally, every demographic.

    See “The Vow” on HBO. (However, recently 5 wolves of this crime syndicate, posing as belief & biz, landed in the klink.)

  39. Raswhiting: Three words: Clergy Sexual Abuse
    That is my default assumption until there is contrary evidence, rather than accepting this was an affair. And it likely is not the only instance of CSA by Lentz.
    Was his wife also called a “pastor” at this church? That is common in these churches and the Houstons are both pastors. If so, notice how she also was fired for his sin although without any mention or thanks.

    Yes to all this! Wasn’t the peeing pastor’s wife fired as well? (Although more nicely and subtly) In this case the wife is one of the victims. The Houstons’ statements are so chock-full of evil they really need line-by-line analysis. But it’s clear they want the sheeple to assume there’s just one Consenting Adult Female (CAF) involved, and no CSA. The perp’s admission of “unfaithfulness” likewise is designed to make fans imagine one CAF, but could mean anything and everything, and probably does. And the autocrats (Houstons) have already dictated business as usual and squashed any further discussion.

  40. dee: I saw a picture in which they were having a fight. She was a pastor at Hillsong as well. It appears she was let go at the same time.

    If there was ever a reason not to be employed at the same place as your spouse if you’re in religion, this is it. That said, my evil too big to fail employer is not likely to dump the other spouse if one is fired without evidence of wrongdoing. Churches can do this because they’ve got a Constitutional carveout when it comes to employment law.

  41. Samuel Conner,

    My church participated in the “I Found It!” Campaign back in the late 70s. With several churches involved, training, full color brochures, complete canvassing of our college town, phone banking, and billboards, each church had a handful of new believers. I have never again signed up for such a thing. Better to get to know my neighbors and love them as myself.

  42. Linn: get to know my neighbors and love them

    The “Bring Your Neighbor to Church” campaign, pocketbook and all, because … church is having a Christmas or Easter pageant, summer carnival, kids family night film, “free” chicken dinner, guest preacher/prophet, guest music ensemble/band, a staged show?

  43. dee: Don’t you think he would look good on the stage at Tullian’s church?

    Oh yeah, perfect fit! I say put all the bad-boys in one church, so God won’t have to work so hard finding them on Judgment Day.

  44. dee: When I started this blog, I never imagined how bad it was in the church.

    “Do you see what they are doing, the great repulsive acts which the elders of Israel are committing here, to drive Me far away from My sanctuary? But you will again see greater repulsive acts.” (Ezekiel 8)

  45. Samuel Conner: churches must be resolutely counter-cultural, even if that stance means that they will be numerically smaller and less financially and politically powerful …

    … but spiritually blessed.

  46. Max: put all the bad-boys in one church

    They are finding each other. National movements have assisted. The Proximity to Power at all costs crowd – including the cost of democracy and truth and decency and their very souls – is coming together under one yet unnamed tent.

    They managed to do this in Jesus’ time and put the Son of God to death, while choosing a thief, a criminal. The angry mob. The push-back when TWW exposes their leaders is angry mob vitriol.

    This is increasingly exposed but never over until Jesus comes again.

    Narcissist Bullies & their Proximity to Power (bully power) sycophants are in unending supply on this Earth with the Prince of the World.

    For the rest of this, who see it, at some point, it is a matter of shaking the dust off one’s sandals and moving on to another town, until Jesus comes again. We were warned by our Savior. A remnant is the term Jesus used for what would become of us if we do not align ourselves in Proximity with Power.

    This occurred as recounted by Elie Wiesel in “Night”. The local rabbi came back to warn the town but they would not listen. Wiesel’s dad was a town leader, who didn’t listen to seek refuge elsewhere. His dad even mislead the town. Wiesel later watched his dad die in Buchenwald.

  47. dee:
    JDV,

    I found this picture disgusting but i felt it was worth posting since it exemplifes what Lentz and the rest of the hypepriests are all about.

    This speaks of a culture. At the Hillsongs in the nearest big city which friends on mine attended there was definite pressure to only have very photogenic/attractive people on stage. This went doubly for members of the worship band and dance ministry.

  48. dee,

    Same with me….
    as I have posted a number of times, I am known for being “cynical”, but a couple decades ago I would never have suspected that the Roman Catholic Church AND so many Protestant churches, denomination are as corrupt as is being continuing exposed to be!
    Now, with all the “political connections/endorsement” in America Christianity today, I am really re-evaluating my connections to “Christian organizations” and people that proclaim they “evangelicals”….

  49. chris s,

    I saw this in “campus ministry” 38 years ago…. They wanted good looking, good speaking “student leaders” to lead the weekly services… The women “staff” fussed over how he dressed! And coached how he spoke… they also targeted “greek leaders” since they were student “leaders”
    But at least he did not show any skin, or other body parts!

  50. Ava Aaronson: what happens to “evangelical”?

    I think that, increasingly, the term will have negative connotations to outsiders, and even to many insiders who are curious how their movement is perceived by outsiders.

    I was an insider for decades, grieved by what I saw (mostly in the area of evangelical interaction with the natural sciences, but increasingly also in other areas) but willing to persevere because I believed that the movement was both salvageable and worth salvaging. At some point in the last decade, my interpretation changed, and I began to view the movement less as “under corrective chastisement” (as in Hebrews 12) and more as being “given over to darkened understanding” and its sequelae (as in Romans 1). At that point I concluded that I was bailing a boat that could not be kept afloat, and I gave up.

    “Post-evangelical” is what many call themselves. It’s how I think of myself. The “post-evangelical wilderness” is not as empty as one might think.

  51. Ava Aaronson,

    I attend a Presbyterian Church, so I identify as mainline Protestant, and do not us the word “ evangelical”…. it now has to much “baggage” for me… especially in my Professional world…. surprisingly enough, I do not think Presbyterian has as much…

  52. Ava Aaronson: Curious. After all is read on this blog, what happens to “evangelical”?

    Well, given the current events on our National stage and how white evangelicalism (about 80%) sold its soul to Mammon and lost, I think the term ‘evangelical’ will have less and less credibility over time.

  53. Abigail: Curious if his wife will stay with him……why do so many of these cheating men get away with it? Why would a wife tolerate it? I don’t understand!

    I’m not speculating as to this particular situation. But in church cultural in general, I think, a spouse who endures infidelity or even abuse “for the sake of the marriage” is admired as a martyr. One who is divorced (even for what most people would consider “legitimate” reasons) is “tainted.”

    Take novels by Francine Rivers, for example. In my pre-married life, I soaked them up. Recently had opportunity to read “Her Mother’s Hope,” and what struck me the most was how unhealthy the marriages were. One was plainly abusive, yet the wife stayed. Another the husband literally abandoned his pregnant wife, yet she chose to follow after him. There was no hint that the women should have done anything other than submit to their husband’s wishes. Realizing this felt eye-opening, and also extremely disappointing.

  54. Jeffrey J Chalmers: I saw this in “campus ministry” 38 years ago…. They wanted good looking, good speaking “student leaders” to lead the weekly services… The women “staff” fussed over how he dressed! And coached how he spoke… they also targeted “greek leaders” since they were student “leaders”
    But at least he did not show any skin, or other body parts!

    When I lived in Salt Lake City, and, more recently here in Arizona, I was told that the most photogenic young women were selected to be Mormon missionaries at Temple Square in SLC and also at the visitor’s center here in Arizona. Make of that what you will.

  55. Wild Honey,

    “in church cultural in general, I think, a spouse who endures infidelity or even abuse “for the sake of the marriage” is admired as a martyr. One who is divorced (even for what most people would consider “legitimate” reasons) is “tainted.”

    Take novels by Francine Rivers, for example. …“Her Mother’s Hope,” …how unhealthy the marriages were.

    One was plainly abusive, yet the wife stayed. Another the husband literally abandoned his pregnant wife, yet she chose to follow after him. There was no hint that the women should have done anything other than submit to their husband’s wishes”
    ++++++++++++++++

    there is nothing honorable about this.

    really, what’s the point of being “biblical” at the expense of what is honorable, truthful, integrous? at the expense of what is healthy? at the expense of the kids’ welfare? at the expense of common sense?

    “biblical” can be any number of destructive, dishonest, manipulative, unhealthy scenarios.

    a better concept is, I think, is what is ‘God-honoring’, which goes far beyond the text. and requires reason and intelligence.

  56. Ava Aaronson,

    Yup..
    One needs to be very careful when communicating these days, and do not assume the other person has the same definition of a word that you do….
    Another term as an alterative to “evangelical” is Christ follower….. in fact, one could argue that is what we are suppose to be in the first place. Reading the beatitudes is a great place to start with respect to what being a Christ follower means…

  57. Jeffrey Chalmers: Another term as an alternative to “evangelical” is Christ follower

    A term that the New Calvinists have latched onto. They label themselves as Christ followers although they don’t talk much about Him. In the new reformation, Calvin and Piper get more airtime than Jesus … you are who you follow.

    But, yes, Christians should be Christ followers. That has been the intent for the Church for the last 2,000+ years.

    The term evangelical comes from the Greek word “euangelion” meaning “the good news” or “gospel.” Evangelical faith should focus on ‘the’ Gospel of Jesus, not another gospel of aberrant theological faith (e.g., New Calvinism). Likewise, personality cults don’t focus on the person of Christ, but charismatic leaders … and they are aplenty in the Christian Industrial Complex.

  58. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: Make of that what you will.

    PR sex appeal. Chollywood (church Hollywood-style). Fully in sync with the Vegas-style worship services of, for example, Willowcreek, where Dear Leaders cultivate a harem. Hybels nurtured his A-list chicks. For the love of god, of course.

  59. Ava Aaronson: Words don’t mean the same anymore, my observation.

    I think Lewis Carroll said it best when he wrote:

    “When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’

    ’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’

    ’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.”

  60. elastigirl: a better concept is, I think, is what is ‘God-honoring’, which goes far beyond the text. and requires reason and intelligence.

    BINGO.
    And here’s a good corollary :
    The Bible is a great and wonderful thing, but it suffers from the same two ills as Science.
    Not giving it the credibility it deserves at one extreme, and making way too much of it at the other.

  61. Max:
    I swear these stories get sicker as time goes on.

    “Behold, darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people” (Isaiah 60:2)

  62. Yes, sicker and sicker.

    Until the Lord finally says, enough of this wicked and perverse generation!

    Come quickly Lord Jesus.

  63. Ava Aaronson,

    Actually, at my current church, we respond to neighbored needs with free ESL classes, food distribution in cooperation with our local food bank, a tutoring program in a local apartment complex, rides for seniors, etc. All are welcome, activities are free, and they have made our church a part of our community. I’m busy with ESL and tutoring kids. We have a number of families who have come to the church, and to faith, through these activities. It can also cause tension, but we work it out.

  64. Linn,

    Wow, I am sincerely impressed, a Church that is actually doing concrete things to build a better world in the here and now rather than worrying about some ethereal other-world (heaven) in the sky.
    The Jews call this Tikkun Olam.

  65. Ava Aaronson: Chollywood (church Hollywood-style).

    I don’t remember coming across the word “Chollywood” before (which matches its very apt definition of “church Hollywood-style”).

    Maybe “Chollywood” can become another TWW (or TWW-adopted) term. 🙂

    (Especially since more and more of the “Chollywood” actors are being exposed (pun intended 🙂 )….and then re-taking the stage after a “suitable” amount of time has elapsed for “restoration”….which might or might not include “repentance”).

  66. Linn,

    Your congregation sounds a bit like the Acts 2/4 Jerusalem church, whose “program” was a mix of proclamation and concrete “social ministry” appropriate to its context (providing sustenance to widows, for example). That group is said to have “enjoyed the favor of all the people”. It’s a good way to “be church”. Well done!

  67. Linda McGurl: Until the Lord finally says, enough of this wicked and perverse generation!

    The Lord definitely has more patience than I have. Wickedness and perverseness have flooded the American church … they are daily topics on watchblogs like TWW. When will enough be enough?! When will the scales be tipped toward Judgment?

  68. Max: When

    When enough have seen enough to know better and our Lord has His remnant of the Elect. Do we not all have those we care about that have not yet seen enough? Ever grateful God is patient and slow to anger, quick to love.

  69. Jeffrey Chalmers: I identify as mainline Protestant

    I just say mainline since the mainline includes non-Protestant Christians too.

    In times past I said we were the “party animals of the Kingdom of God.” Given this post, I think that phrase might be heard incorrectly now…

  70. Ava Aaronson: Do you self-identify as evangelical?

    One wonders how many TWW readers self-identify as evangelical.

    Curious. After all is read on this blog, what happens to “evangelical”?

    The term “evangelical” is clearly tainted, yet my basic beliefs fall into that category. I believe salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. I affirm the authority of Scripture. I affirm traditional views of marriage and family, though I also believe the church has badly neglected its single brothers and sisters.

    I’m clearly at odds with the celebrity Christian machine and culture dubbed “Big Evangelical” by some folks. I have major disagreements with groups such as Acts 29, 9Marks and The Gospel Coalition. Yet I also have no home in mainline Protestant churches such as the Episcopal Church, in which I was raised and involved with off and on as an adult.

    I’m frankly not sure what, if any, label I embrace other than simply being a follower of Jesus Christ. My faith has been influenced not only by evangelicalism but also by the liturgical, charismatic and contemplative streams of thought. Each of those influences has its good points but also its problematic points. And I suppose that will be the case with the earthly church until Jesus returns.

  71. chris s: At the Hillsongs in the nearest big city which friends on mine attended there was definite pressure to only have very photogenic/attractive people on stage.

    I often noticed and commented on this. How the worship team on stage more and more seemed to be chosen based on their physical appearance above any other characteristic. I see it at megachurches like Bethel, and I see it creeping into the churches that I used to be a part of. In fact I noticed it because my friend and I were watching a livestream, and I commented that the church had a fat girl on their team, and how nice but unusual it was to see someone who looked like me being “allowed” to minister. In every other way she was dressed like one of the cool kids so I suppose they thought she passed muster.

    I despise trendy church if you couldn’t tell lol

  72. Liz: the worship team on stage more and more seemed to be chosen based on their physical appearance above any other characteristic

    There is a mega Assembly of God church near me (5,000+ members). Before it reached mega status, they had a female worship leader who was an anointed singer … but had crossed eyes. Somewhere along the line, the lead pastor joined the New Calvinist movement and began making changes in the church with reformed indoctrination (grace this, grace that), ESV Bible promotion, elder governance, etc. A “new and improved” worship team hit the stage with beautiful young people, cool band, and super audio … attendance began to soar. The former worship leader disappeared. I’ve often wondered where she is now … her singing was so gifted … she didn’t have the right look and wardrobe of tight pants, I suppose, so she had to go. (oh, and the choir of hymn-singing senior saints was also disbanded)

  73. singleman: I’m frankly not sure what, if any, label I embrace other than simply being a follower of Jesus Christ. My faith has been influenced not only by evangelicalism but also by the liturgical, charismatic and contemplative streams of thought. Each of those influences has its good points but also its problematic points.

    I hear you. I used to be excited about church. But now I think I have PTCD. I thought I could find a way out by diving into church history. But that made the problem worse for me in many ways. We are now attending a large mainline protestant church that seems safe enough for now, but I have no excitement for it. On the bright side, they are not aware of names like Piper.

  74. Ken F (aka Tweed): I think I have PTCD. I thought I could find a way out by diving into church history. But that made the problem worse for me in many ways. We are now attending a large mainline protestant church that seems safe enough for now, but I have no excitement for it.

    I’ve struggled to articulate this, but any church excitement is toxic for me. I do better with services that lean toward the contemplative, and thought-provoking sermons delivered in a speaking voice. It also helps for a church to look like a church, whether it’s a simple worship space or high Gothic.

  75. Friend: I’ve struggled to articulate this, but any church excitement is toxic for me.

    Excitement might have been the wrong word for me to use. Maybe “non-dread” would have been better. I would like to find a place where I can look forward to participation. I know such places exist, but I think I have lost hope in finding one.

  76. I became what I laughingly call “a Christian” 40 years ago, of course, I was faking it and it was all a lie and that will also be added to the black stain on my soul which is already blackened, hardened and basically worthless. This is basically how evangelicalism made me feel second by second when I was in the industry. And it is an industry nothing more. The level of abuse is staggering as it is devastating. My experience has been almost constant rage, God’s eternal rage at me, actually pretty much all of us if not all of us, and my faith’s family’s rage at me because I was such an abject failure.

    I won’t go into the babies go to hell, pre and post-birth unregenerate babies whom God’s eternal wrath takes them out b/4 they can do any real damage. Almost all people with disabilities are faking it to get a government check and we should not help them or have to help them with our tax dollars. The same people who barfed out that nonsense blabbered on about how they got away with not having to pay taxes by some barely legal accounting. They also complained about the roads, the power grid, etc. About the sciences, I have to agree it is so hard to actually believe the Earth/universe is only 6-10K yo, given the speed of light, etc. Evolution is a total fairytale and a lie of Satan as is psychology, psychiatry, vaccines, antivirals, antibiotics, etc. Also if U don’t have the money to pay for any care U should never get it and just die.

    I struggled with why God allowed so much pain in the lives of the people I worked with, it was so overwhelming, I am sure this is another moral, spiritual, human failing on my part but it really bothered me. I don’t get what telling someone with the cognitive ability of maybe a six-month-old the 4 spiritual laws or the Roman’s road while they are trying to beat themselves unconscious against the nearest wall. Trying to fast and cast demons out of people also was unhelpful and stupid.

    I could go on but it leaves a mark, no a scare that never seems to heal.

  77. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    All should depend on what you want—always, but especially since you have been traumatized.

    In my view, (general) you should only go to church if you want to, and value corporate worship or at least the congregation, what it gives to the community, sacred music, etc. I’m done with going out of a sense of obligation or a fear that poor attendance will displease a God who knows exactly what I’ve been through.

  78. brian: I could go on but it leaves a mark, no a scare that never seems to heal.

    You have gone through so much, Brian. Truly I hope that you continue to heal as time passes. I appreciate your powerful voice, and trust that you will never hold back. People need to keep hearing from you.

  79. brian: I struggled with why God allowed so much pain in the lives of the people I worked with, it was so overwhelming, I am sure this is another moral, spiritual, human failing on my part but it really bothered me.

    I think that when we are troubled by things that are genuinely troubling, we aren’t exhibiting human failure, … it may be evidence that we are being conformed to the true image of God, Jesus. He was a man acquainted with sorrows, familiar with grief, and deeply moved by others’ sufferings.

    You have a pastoral heart — in the best sense of “pastoral.” Be encouraged by that.

  80. Friend: All should depend on what you want—always, but especially since you have been traumatized.

    The problem is I don’t know what I want, nor what I can live with. On the one hand, I don’t feel like I can say I was traumatized by church in light of the stories posted here. But I also cannot imagine walking back into the SBC church I left a few years ago. I don’t ever remember going to church out of a sense of obligation. It’s the desire for going to church with friends that I miss.

  81. brian:

    I could go on but it leaves a mark, no a scare that never seems to heal.

    Like Frodo after he bore the Ring.
    He could never find healing in Middle-Earth, this side of the White Ship to Valinor.

  82. Max: “Do you see what they are doing, the great repulsive acts which the elders of Israel are committing here, to drive Me far away from My sanctuary? But you will again see greater repulsive acts.” (Ezekiel 8)

    A more idiomatic translation:
    “See this sh*t? You ain’t seen nothing yet!”

  83. brian: I won’t go into the babies go to hell, pre and post-birth unregenerate babies whom God’s eternal wrath takes them out b/4 they can do any real damage.

    Only a sick and twisted religion with a cruel monster as its god would teach such a thing.

  84. Ken F (aka Tweed): I don’t feel like I can say I was traumatized by church in light of the stories posted here. … It’s the desire for going to church with friends that I miss.

    All of the poor treatment takes a toll, even if it’s not actually criminal. We are led to expect nothing short of love at church, and often we do give and receive love. But the betrayals cause harm.

    After our 5-year absence, we returned slowly. I do love some people there, yet I limit my contact with everyone. Vulnerability is the last thing I need.

  85. All the stuff I post about my personal experiences in evangelicalism do not even come close to the true grace I have seen in the work, no gift, I have been given to do. So many days I am reminded of God’s simple yet complex grace to all of us. I smile, an answer to a question, a memory, relieving a fear, helping someone get a new wheelchair, new w/c van, a breathing unit, etc. I had/have such a deep joy in such things, I mean it is trounced by the monsters from the past but they become small shadows in reflection to the wonderment I have observed. This is why I hold on to the faith it always will be.

  86. Liz,

    “I despise trendy church if you couldn’t tell lol”
    ++++++++++

    you mean you have a problem with the religion you’ve invested a good part of your life and resources in turning into gospel-madison-avenue? (sarcasm: on)

    where everything is decided around shadowy conference tables?

    (what new doctrines are invented and promoted, the music that is played, the content that is published, the cultural values and practices that are reinforced, the business practices that are implemented…)

    I’m so done, and long gone.

    (but not with God/Jesus/Holy Spirit. Who are of course alive and well outside the institution and full-on engaging with people)

  87. Friend,

    When I hear these stories/experiences, I keep coming back to the warnings in the Gospels about false teachers, and wolves in sheep’s clothings ( poor wolves, I like wolves). I think these “prophecies” are not emphasized enough!

  88. Abigail:
    When this stuff happens it seems to me that usually the little wifey stands by her man. Curious if his wife will stay with him……why do so many of these cheating men get away with it? Why would a wife tolerate it? I don’t understand!

    Might want to do some research on the “Stockholm Syndrome.”

    “Psychiatrists compared the behavior to the wartime shell shock exhibited by soldiers and explained that the hostages became emotionally indebted to their abductors, and not the police, for being spared death. Within months of the siege, psychiatrists dubbed the strange phenomenon “Stockholm Syndrome,” which became part of the popular lexicon in 1974 when it was used as a defense for the kidnapped newspaper heiress Patty Hearst, who assisted her radical Symbionese Liberation Army captors in a series of bank robberies.”

    https://www.history.com/news/stockholm-syndrome

  89. Jeffrey Chalmers: When I hear these stories/experiences, I keep coming back to the warnings in the Gospels about false teachers, and wolves in sheep’s clothings ( poor wolves, I like wolves). I think these “prophecies” are not emphasized enough!

    The American church is a non-prophet institution. The average churchgoer doesn’t want to hear about false teachers and wolves in their midst … “Preach to us smooth things, give us fun and fellowship” they demand.

  90. Stockholm syndrome, also known as trauma bonding or terror bonding, is born out of the hostage’s instinctual sense of self-preservation: his basic survival is controlled by his captor, so rather than hate the captor, the hostage unconsciously forges a bond with him in order to survive. The hostage forges this bond by accepting and feeling gratitude for small acts of kindness from his captor; in the case of the Stockholm captives, they were given blankets when they were cold and were allowed to call their families. In the hostage’s world, the captor has become his provider, whereas the armed law enforcement team in the outside world poses a physical threat to both him and his provider.

    https://www.history.com/news/what-is-stockholm-syndrome

  91. elastigirl,

    Sorry, I should have been more clear (or figured out how to use a sarcasm emoji). I agree that there are a number of legitimate/reasonable/fill-in-the-blank reasons for divorce, including the ones you’ve mentioned. Speaking to the culture of things (not necessarily to a specific couple), I think propping up enablers as “martyrs” and giving their evil and/or poor-decision-making spouses a pass harms both sides in the long run and perpetrates cycles of abuse.

    I was disappointed to realize that another influential Christian I look(ed) up to has bought into this.

  92. Liz: my friend and I were watching a livestream, and I commented that the church had a fat girl on their team, and how nice but unusual it was to see someone who looked like me being “allowed” to minister.

    Someone recently told me how they had mixed feelings about how a former church of theirs “let go” their worship pastor because of “a discipline issue that was affecting his witness to others to be disciplined in their daily habits” (or some such like that). I replied in shock, “You mean he was fired because he was fat?!” The somewhat stiff response, “You could choose to look at it that way.”

    I made a mental note to never confess my reading binges, streaming binges, etc.

  93. Max: The American church is a non-prophet institution.The average churchgoer doesn’t want to hear about false teachers and wolves in their midst … “Preach to us smooth things, give us fun and fellowship” they demand.

    “We don’t want to learn any of your big words, Pastor! YOU’RE HERE TO KEEP US COMFORTABLE!
    — actually told to my burned-out preacher writing partner – to his face

  94. Jeffrey Chalmers: When I hear these stories/experiences, I keep coming back to the warnings in the Gospels about false teachers, and wolves in sheep’s clothings ( poor wolves, I like wolves).

    Wolves have more class than that.

  95. Wild Honey,

    you were very clear — i’m agreeing with you (although i might not have been clear on that part). our silly religion makes heroes out of those who enable sick behavior.

    one of the reasons it’s no longer my religion.

    (it’s kind of funny — Jesus Christ is as available as ever outside his namesake organization. I suspect, more available)

  96. elastigirl: Jesus Christ is as available as ever outside his namesake organization. I suspect, more available

    When the Pharisees threw the formerly blind man out of church for giving his testimony about being healed, Jesus went looking for him. It’s better to be out of church with Jesus than in church with a bunch of Pharisees who don’t know Him.

  97. Max,

    And do not forget the thief on the cross.. he did not need to be in “good standing” with his local 9 Marxs church, nor be in “attendance” to listen to Johnny Mac range about the persecution by the State because of COVID to be blessed by Christ…

  98. Jeffrey Chalmers: the thief on the cross … did not need to be in “good standing” with his local 9 Marxs church

    Yes, forgiven thieves will fare better on Judgment Day than those who stand with the 9 Marxists.

  99. Max: When the Pharisees threw the formerly blind man out of church for giving his testimony about being healed, Jesus went looking for him.It’s better to be out of church with Jesus than in church with a bunch of Pharisees who don’t know Him.

    Yes, to elastigirl and Max.

  100. Max: The American church is a non-prophet institution.

    Do you mind if I steal this line?

    Makes me want to laugh and cry at the same time.

  101. Hopefully your assessment of Lecrae’s two-word comment is as much of a reach as it seems. It’s reasonable to think that he’s speaking of Lentz’ relationships with his wife and his children. To assume that he means restoration to ministry is a leap.

  102. Rae W:
    Hopefully your assessment of Lecrae’s two-word comment is as much of a reach as it seems. It’s reasonable to think that he’s speaking of Lentz’ relationships with his wife and his children. To assume that he means restoration to ministry is a leap.

    It could mean a number of things and a leap in any direction is that-a leap.

  103. Wild Honey: Max: The American church is a non-prophet institution.

    Do you mind if I steal this line?

    I’ll certainly let you “borrow” that line … so you don’t have to steal it 🙂

    You can rephrase it to Non-Prophet Organization, if you so desire.

    The American “church” has an abundance of preachers, teachers, pretty-boy celebrities, charlatans, and assorted other imposters … what it needs is a prophet! (with a bone-chilling, correcting, rebuking word from the Lord which will shake us back to our spiritual senses … we’ve been playing church way too long)

  104. Muff Potter:
    How did Christianity get this commercialized?

    Did it start with the megachurch movement? What books Dr. Barnhose wrote during his lifetime come nowhere near what Furtick and others have written in less than a decade.

  105. Max,

    You forgot “Senior” preacher, “Worship” preacher, “Teaching” preacher, in your list….. I could go sarcastic, but..

  106. Jeffrey Chalmers: When I hear these stories/experiences, I keep coming back to the warnings in the Gospels about false teachers, and wolves in sheep’s clothings

    I think there is a mixture of wolves who know they are wolves, and sheep who don’t realize they are acting like wolves. It’s the same damage either way, but the motivation is different. In the church I left it was more the latter. It would have been easier for me to walk away from outright wolves.

  107. Ken F (aka Tweed): Don’t forget “Pastor of Assimilation.” It’s a real thing.

    “NextGen Pastor” is commonly used in New Calvinist churches in my area – a youth pastor title. It’s all about indoctrinating the next generation for Calvin, you know.

  108. Brian: Did it start with the megachurch movement?

    I think we’ve been heading down this road a long time. Revivals, snake handlers, the Billy Graham Crusades (I went to one and vaguely remember doing the altar call). As a little girl I loved listening to Kathryn Kuhlman. Well, even if she was not a fraud, she did pave the way for Benny Hinn.

  109. Jeffrey Chalmers: You forgot “Senior” preacher, “Worship” preacher, “Teaching” preacher, in your list….. I could go sarcastic, but..

    While we are drifting into sarcasm, we shouldn’t forget “Lead Pastor” … the New Calvinists love that title! A fresh-out-of-seminary-inexperienced-know-it-all-YRR assigns himself that title when he plants a church for Calvin.

  110. Friend: All of the poor treatment takes a toll, even if it’s not actually criminal.

    My wife wonders if I’ve partially traumatized myself by spending so much time investigating the damage caused by New-Calvinists and other abusive church leaders. I think she is right.

    I knew nothing about New-Calvinism when things started turning sour for me at my last church. At the time I thought it was Auxano leadong them astray. I asked too many questions, which caused one of the “elders” to go after me. In hindsight, they were already slowly drifiting into New-Calvinism. It was not until my sons were nearly destroyed by New-calvinism that I started looking in to it. That is when the pieces starting coming together for me.

    The lead pastor insisted he was not a Calvinist and was not pushing people one way or the other. I believe him. But the drift continued, and he continued to quote Calvinists in nearly every sermon. I was basically a frog who finally realized I was half-cooked. I think he will one day wake up to it as well, but for him the fever has not yet run its course.

  111. Ken F (aka Tweed): Don’t forget “Pastor of Assimilation.” It’s a real thing.

    “Pastor of Assimilation”: A title created by people who have watched too much Star Trek, adopting The Borg’s idea of assimilation, where “resistance is futile”.

  112. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    You might have traumatized yourself, but the church harmed your sons. That would traumatize any loving parent.

    It’s hard to learn about abuse (to use the term very broadly). I went through a long phase of figuring out what happened to me versus what else goes on in troubled congregations. Gradually some insight helped to give me some emotional distance.

  113. I agree with this statement. If you loved Kieth Green and went to see Billy Graham films, then you are an “Evangelical”. It can be defined as a subculture as well. I like the term “Orthodox Christian” myself but often use “Evangelical”
    I agree with this summary. If you read Francis Schaeffer, listened to Kieth Green, and went to Billy Graham movies, with a little sprinkling of Amy Grant, then you were an American Evangelical. I have no problem with the name but I do prefer “Orthodox Christian”. I do not remember any of the Creeds stating one must follow Calvin, believe in inerrancy, read the Left Behind novels, and insist that Noah’s Ark had baby dinosaurs.

    singleman: The term “evangelical” is clearly tainted, yet my basic beliefs fall into that category. I believe salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. I affirm the authority of Scripture. I affirm traditional views of marriage and family, though I also believe the church has badly neglected its single brothers and sisters.

    I’m clearly at odds with the celebrity Christian machine and culture dubbed “Big Evangelical” by some folks. I have major disagreements with groups such as Acts 29, 9Marks and The Gospel Coalition. Yet I also have no home in mainline Protestant churches such as the Episcopal Church, in which I was raised and involved with off and on as an adult.

  114. One comment not approved because I couldn’t figure out what the person was saying but it appears he is a bit put out by the post. Tone it down and try again.

  115. Ken F (aka Tweed): The lead pastor insisted he was not a Calvinist and was not pushing people one way or the other.

    This is modus operandi with the New Calvinists. They know that the word “Calvinist” invokes “Not here, young man!” in the non-Calvinist churches they are taking over. So, it is more convenient for them to lie about their theological leaning so they can get in the door and stealthily release reformed theology on a people who don’t really want to go there. They will be judged for deceiving God’s people this way.

  116. I want to know why Brian Houston thinks he has the authority to say it would be inappropriate to give details. Where is that written??

  117. Nuttshell: Brian Houston … inappropriate to give details

    Inappropriate?! Is there anything inappropriate in the mega-mania Christian Industrial Complex these days? If Houston is worried that church members would be disgusted with the gorey details of his Hypepriest’s transgressions, he shouldn’t be … many members look for churches where the pastor is living no differently than them – it makes them feel better about themselves.

  118. Cynthia W., IKR? all I could think when these news stories started popping up in my feed is that he was unattractive and creepy looking and who in the world would want to get with him, especially knowing he was breaking his vows and going against his faith. Yuck! Disgusting! Whenever these things pop up it always makes me so glad I’m Catholic. Yes the church has scandals, but at least it’s real. Worship is real and reverent, and exists the same whether a particular priest is bad or good.

  119. Jeffrey Chalmers,

    Jeffrey Chalmers:
    Muff Potter,

    38 years ago I saw/experienced the commercialization of Christianity in “Campus Ministries”….. they very much implemented current “marketing principles” to “spread the Gospel”, and back then I had serious misgivings about ethics of that marketing, including being proud of “bate and switch” tactics……

    This dynamic was well-covered in a book called “The Juvenilization of American Christianity” by Thomas Bergler, but he traces it as far back as the post WWII era and the development of “youth ministry” as a program for evangelism. This reached its nadir
    with “Young Life” in the 60s/70s which was built by targeting the “best, brightest, and most bodacious” students in a high school hoping other students would follow because these cool people are now Christians.