Is “Turning Point USA” at CU Demonstrating Love For Others?

The screenshot above was taken from Jacob Uhler’s Instagram account. It was posted as a “story” so it disappeared after 24 hours. I find Uhler’s “story” very disturbing. You will recall that Kyle Rittenhouse is the gun-toting seventeen-year-old Antioch, IL resident whom prosecutors have accused of fatally shooting two men and wounding another who were protesting the police shooting of Jacob Blake in Kenosha, WI.

Exactly what point is Jacob Uhler attempting to make? It appears to me that Uhler is suggesting that Rittenhouse should be viewed as a legend instead of a savage. If this is not bad enough, it needs to be noted that Jacob Uhler is the Vice President of a Cedarville University sanctioned organization called Turning Point USA.

What is the group Turning Point USA? This from the International Business Times:

As a 501(c)(3) nonprofit, TPUSA is not required to disclose its donors. But based on public tax records and some reporting by other outlets, IBT has identified the sources of over $900,000 in funding for TPUSA. Republican mega-donor families, GOP politicians and other wealthy individuals have provided large amounts of money so the organization can spread free-market principles — from which the donors benefit — among young people, the majority of whom, overall, lean liberal.

The group’s motto is “Big Government Sucks”; its mission, “to identify, educate, train, and organize students to promote the principles of freedom, free markets, and limited government.” TPUSA recruits “free market activists,” creates “innovative grassroots messaging,” puts out publications and hosts conferences.

“We are proud to fight for free markets and smaller government, both of which are ideas that are resonating extremely well to our target demographic of 18-24 year olds,” Kirk told IBT.

Working to appeal to millennials, TPUSA is funded by a substantial number of older, wealthy individuals whose economic views the group promotes.

The screenshot below was taken from the Turning Point USA’s website.

I found this background information on student organizations on the Cedarville University website:

Student organizations provide opportunities for you to get involved and make connections during your time at Cedarville. From academic and professional, to social and service, to cross-cultural and special interests, you’ll find 90-plus organizations with like-minded students who share your passions and interests. Want to join a group of future teachers? You’ll find that here. Interested in networking with professional engineers? We’ve got a group for you. Want to develop leadership skills? Practice a foreign language? Worship through dance? You’ll find an organization that welcomes you and helps you advance your skills and find a place in our tight-knit Christian community.

Student Government Association

Student Government Association (SGA), purposed with providing a voice for students, encouraging involvement on campus, and developing campus morale, enhanced the quality of student life at Cedarville University.

Theoretically, any Cedarville student can start an “ORG.” I was able to obtain an “ORG” request form which I have reproduced in part below. Note that “Not all ORG Creation requests will be approved.”  So true. Continue reading for an example of an ORG that was rejected.

 

The following concerns the creation of the student organization SASA – “Students Against Sexual Abuse”.

 This type of organization is common at other universities. The purpose of the org was to raise awareness, offer training and education, and be a safe space for sexual abuse survivors. After submitting a form to SGA to become an official organization SGA replied with the following on February 13, 2019. 

 “In the past few weeks, we have sought counsel on this Org Creation Request and we have come to the conclusion that we will not be moving forward in the creation of Students Against Sexual Abuse. Although we love the heart behind the idea, sexual abuse is an extremely hard topic that must be handled with extreme care. Because of this, we have a team of excellent staff members who are here specifically to handle that topic. The University has taken specific steps to be proactive against sexual abuse including resources like our Student Handbook, our Title IX efforts headed up by Teresa Clark, and counseling services. 

We love hearing your passions for proactivity in regards to sexual abuse and we want to encourage you in that, however, we don’t think an Org Creation is the path that we’re going to take. 

If you are interested in still getting involved in proactive efforts, we encourage you to reach out to Teresa Clark! She is an awesome resource to have and would be a great person to express your interested in proactive measures in sexual abuse to!

Another option to consider would be to reach out to Mindy May to see if she would consider potentially hosting a seminar in efforts to raise awareness on topic of sexual abuse. This would require much time and thought, but it could be a potential path to explore!

Again, thank you for your passion for this topic and for your patience with the extended delay in our response. We hope you understand the position that we’re coming at this from. Please feel free to reach out with any questions regarding this decision.” 

 Below is a quote from another email concerning an interaction with Theresa Clark, dated March 13, 2019:

 “It’s become clear that we will not be able to jump right in and become an official org this year. [Potential org officers] discussed this with Teresa Clark and other advisors and have decided that it would be better for this group to start a bit smaller with various activities in order to demonstrate that there is a gap in awareness on campus.”

 A concerned individual wrote this to me:

“Clearly there was a gap in awareness on campus, among the administration and others. Because of the training Dr. White received and new federal regulations, CU updated the Title IX Regulations (per new federal guidelines) and hired two victim advocacy individuals to support people going through the Title IX process. These changes are a good start, but that’s all they are – a start. CU still has a long way to go. Sexual assault awareness training is mandatory at many state universities for everyone (students, faculty, staff, and administration). The comparison of how quickly CU approved Turning Point and how they shut down a sexual assault org is concerning to me, especially since they claim to be “For the Word of God and Testimony of Jesus Christ.”

Another individual I communicated with advised me that there used to be a Democratic Org at Cedarville, but that Thomas White abolished it sometime between his arrival as President and the fall of 2016.

Turning Point USA, obviously conservative in nature, was formed this year. Additionally, there is already a Republican Org on the Cedarville campus.

Each organization that is formed at Cedarville must have officers and an advisor. The advisor is a staff person tasked with the following responsibilities:

It appears to me that Turning Point USA may be failing on the “Love for others” requirement. What follows are some examples of what I deem to be a lack of love.

One of the featured speakers at the Turning Point USA Chapter Leadership Summit of 2020 was Hall of Fame baseball pitcher Curt Schilling. Below is an excerpt from an article on Schilling. The entire article can be found here.

Below is a post found on the Cedarville University Turning Point USA Instagram account.  I have captured the entire video, below is a one-minute clip I took from the five-minute video.

As I stated at the top of this article, I find these posts to be very troubling. Were I a minority student I don’t think I would be feeling “welcome home” at Cedarville. But perhaps that is the intent of the  Cedarville officers of Turning Point USA.  Regardless, I am of the opinion that Thomas White needs to take action immediately to ensure that Cedarville University is a safe and welcoming institution for all students, regardless of their color.

For further reading: Updated 9/7/2020

Evangelicals perfected cancel culture. Now it’s coming for them.

“This month, Chis Hodges, senior pastor of Church of the Highlands, an evangelical congregation with 60,000 members spread across 24 locations, came under fire after screenshots were shared online showing the pastor liking several posts by Charlie Kirk, a controversial pro-Trump activist.

The posts in question were considered racially insensitive and, among other things, questioned whether white privilege actually exists.”

Comments

Is “Turning Point USA” at CU Demonstrating Love For Others? — 294 Comments

  1. Re: the jruhler boast about killing tens of thousands of british soldiers to avoid paying taxes,…

    I have been somewhat bemused at the outrage over property destruction, coming from people who are proud of the defiance of unjust exercise of authority that was expressed in the “Boston Tea Party”, an act of property destruction.

    IIRC, Jesus said something to the effect that by our own words we will be condemned.

  2. I am afraid that if we keep digging more depressing stuff is going to come out about CU…. There is already enough to demonstrated the place is a “kingdom” for the CU President. As we keep seeing in other orgs, that is a reciept for disaster

  3. I think the reason Cedarville didn’t allow the “Students Against Sexual Abuse” org is because it might reflect badly on CU, as opposed to a quasi-political group linked to the predominant beliefs of the institution. This isn’t the first religious university out there to try and hide what’s really going on underneath the surface. It’s not like other religious schools haven’t had their share of sexual abuse scandals–Bob Jones University, a couple of Southern Baptist seminaries with Paige Patterson as their leader, Master’s University and obviously, have to mention Liberty University after this week.

    I’m going to say what I said about CU a few months back–parents, you can get your children a better education at a secular university where there isn’t so much *baggage* and your child is not going to be subject to men who ignore sexual abuse going on underneath their noses. At the Big State U down the street from me, there are many, many Christian organizations and churches on or near campus. You can help your young adult child find a place where they can be a Christian and get a world-class education, and without the baggage that CU is carrying around right now. $32K/year + room and board is way too much to pay to be in Thomas White’s obsessive little bubble of a kingdom.

  4. Mutant capitalism IS big government. Pretending to be against what they are for – this is not straightforward or rational. As their yea is not yea, why does a “christian” umbrella allow them? The real way to counter actual thuggery is honest and true arguments, not descending to the same level.

    Cedarville trustees look (from here) like they have been deliberately planning to stoke up provocations against counterprovocations for the sake of it. Whatever the motives of ordinary individuals trying to be sympathetic in a generalised antifa – black-lives-matter direction (which are no doubt good in a great many cases) if you join TP and purport to be of college education you are obviously dishonest.

    I note one is invited to see if one can resist the charms of their middle-ranking Teresas and their Mindys, but they don’t invite you to scrutinise their trustees. For Cedarville trustees, the criterion is what the issue is about so it can be quashed / stoked up. Engineers and dancing are just decoys. Note cynical usage of term “Orgs”.

  5. Michael in UK: generalised antifa – black-lives-matter direction

    Addendum: I intended to indicate the sense in the literal underlying (but somehow hijacked) words as such, NOT the reifying nominalising “import” of the (resultant) brand names. Scofieldist Falwells (who are, jointly with Bannon, the single face of Christianity) themselves created Black Lives Matter in all its various levels. The message to us church veterans is that we are damned, and we rolled our eyes (deep suffering as this already entails us). The people in the world can’t do that – to them IT IS WAR AGAINST THEM.

  6. How does an organization claim “Big Government Sucks” as its motto while supporting a presidency that is not only the most authoritarian in my lifetime, but that has also incurred the largest budget deficits in history?

  7. Only a few months ago Charlie Kirk who *founded* TPUSA whose objective is to teach young people “true free market principles” did not realize we have a tiered income tax system.

    CU has a fundamental problem identifying what it claims to value: Integrity. The organizations they endorse have serious (and obvious) fact/truth issues.

  8. Paul D.: How does an organization claim “Big Government Sucks” as its motto while supporting a presidency that is not only the most authoritarian in my lifetime, but that has also incurred the largest budget deficits in history?

    I fully agree with that this is inconsistent.

    The thing that saddened me most about the events and attitudes reported in the OP was along the lines of a famous saying that “an even bigger problem than ‘what we don’t know’ is the problem that so much of what we think we know actually is not true.” The students of CU are being indoctrinated in a view of public policy that, if consistently implemented, will impoverish the society in which they have to live.

    Modern economies cannot function without some form of ‘big government’ (the details matter a lot, of course; some kinds of ‘big’ are a lot worse than others). I invite readers to examine the arguments in Stephanie Kelton’s ‘the Deficit Myth’. There is in reality no federal budget constraint and deficit hawks’ preferred policies would lead to chronic recession; there is however a ‘real resources’ constraint in that if the government were to try to purchase more output than the economy can produce, prices would rise rapidly. But between that place and where we are at the moment, there is plenty of space for stimulus to output and employment.

    An easily accessible alternative to Kelton’s book is Randall Wray’s online “Modern Monetary Theory Primer.” My only caution is that Wray writes with a bit of snark and he seems to have a dim view of religion; some readers may be offended or distressed by some of the gratuitous snark that appears at places in this otherwise very helpful series of articles.

    I have come to the reluctant conclusion that our leaders know that what economists like Wray and Kelton are saying is true, but they speaking against these ideas in order to prevent the public from realizing the implications.

  9. Paul D.: How does an organization claim “Big Government Sucks” as its motto while supporting a presidency that is not only the most authoritarian in my lifetime, but that has also incurred the largest budget deficits in history?

    I would comment on this, but I can’t make a good argument without violating the blog’s long-standing policy against discussing politics.

  10. Ken P.: but I can’t make a good argument without violating the blog’s long-standing policy against discussing politics.

    Looks like it has already been violated. I don’t know how to comment on this thread without getting political, so this will likely be my only comment.

  11. Jacob Uhler writes, “I am an alpha in a sea of betas. Would that it were not so! I call on other alphas to join me and I call on the betas to learn from us and grow.”

    This language is so popular among white supremacists, among men who think the world owes them a living, and among men who think consent does not exist in relationships.

    I look at him and don’t see an alpha. I see a young jacka$$ in ugly shorts striking a pose on a rock. He’s living in a fantasy world.

    Cedarville has dress rules, and he appears to be violating modesty codes by posting these images, even if they took place between academic terms. So does “maddiebethscott.” See pp 17-18: https://publications.cedarville.edu/brochures/studentlife/studenthandbook/12/

  12. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    The point of the post is not the politics of CU are bad or “Turning Point” is destructive gibberish. The point is that alternatives are prohibited. The will be only one voice at CU and it will be controlled by Thomas White, the leader of this institution of “higher learning. Other viewpoints are not allowed.

  13. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    I’m slightly surprised that my comments didn’t trigger an intervention (and perhaps they will be removed at some point), though in the second one, I’m arguing about “what is true”, which ought to be apolitical (though, of course, “what is true” can have profound policy implications).

    Given that the content of the OP is politically charged, perhaps the rules have been eased a bit for this thread.

  14. “I am of the opinion that Thomas White needs to take action immediately to ensure that Cedarville University is a safe and welcoming institution for all students …” (Todd Wilhelm)

    Based on Dr. White’s support of abuser Anthony Moore as a CU staff member, I wouldn’t expect him to do the right thing in this regard.

  15. Samuel Conner: I have come to the reluctant conclusion that our leaders know that what economists like Wray and Kelton are saying is true, but they speaking against these ideas in order to prevent the public from realizing the implications.

    What Wray and Kelton posit is equivalent to a “perpetual motion machine.” Is this a political/economic blog or a blog about sexual abuse and the church? We may widely disagree on the former while agreeing on the latter.

  16. It’s shameful for Jacob Uhler to pretend that Kyle Rittenhouse said that he killed communists.

    What Rittenhouse did say, into a cell phone: “I just killed somebody.”

    The Atlantic has a new piece about this. From the conclusion:

    Rittenhouse appears to have been living in a fantasy world where police and car dealerships are more endangered than unarmed Black men in traffic stops, and where he was a warrior and self-defender, rather than a youngster who foolishly enrolled himself in a midwestern version of the Children’s Crusade. I can only imagine his fear when he saw the crowd coming for him—and the crowd’s fear, when it saw that a near-child was wildly firing a rifle better suited to a person with judgment and good training. …

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/08/kyle-rittenhouse-kenosha-and-sheepdog-mentality/615805/

  17. Believer: Is this a political/economic blog or a blog about sexual abuse and the church?

    It’s a fair objection, though my central concern is that a lot of what CU indoctrinates into its students is “not true”, and that extends beyond theology into other areas. CU does its students a large disservice by indoctrinating them in falsehoods in any area.

    However, since you objected to a factual claim, I’ll make a brief reply.

    In physics, “perpetual motion machines” cannot exist because of dissipation and the law of conservation of mass/energy. But for governments that issue currency that is not convertible at defined rates into precious metal or other currencies, there not a “law of conservation of money”. Such governments can and do create money out of nothing and do not face a budget constraint. They face an inflation constraint because the productive capacity of the economy is finite.

    All this is clearly stated in Wray and Kelton, and I invite readers to examine that.

  18. Believer: What Wray and Kelton posit is equivalent to a “perpetual motion machine.” Is this a political/economic blog or a blog about sexual abuse and the church? We may widely disagree on the former while agreeing on the latter.

    Given the subject matter and tenor of the post, how is it possible to not engage its political elements? Even if there’s disagreement in the overlap betwixt the two, we’re all rational adults here at TWW, and are perfectly capable of handling it in a civil fashion.

  19. Loren Haas,

    CU and Board unfortunately look like their compatriots at Liberty University, months before the latest (sex) scandal:

    https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2020/june/liberty-university-black-staff-leave-falwell-tweet.html

    Excerpt:
    “Several Liberty employees, both black and white, described internalized fear over speaking out to disagree with leadership. Some black staff members say they cannot stay in their positions even if leaving comes at significant personal cost.”

  20. I just took a look at Maddie Beth Scott’s Instagram—president of the Turning Point chapter at CU. She calls herself “USAF” as well as Cedarville class of 2023, so maybe she’s ROTC. The active duty United States Air Force would not welcome some of the bigoted viewpoints on her Insta.

    Maddie Beth Scott might be surprised to learn that everyone who sets foot on a US military base must wear a mask indoors and out (except under some circumstances). Troops give up a lot of their free speech rights, as well as their human rights to refuse medical care under some circumstances.

    Oh, and a lot of fundagelical Christians don’t think women should be in the military at all, still less in officer positions where they issue orders to men. The military has a few people who will stand in her way, either because they are bigots against women, or because they aren’t bigots, and she is.

  21. Friend,

    Well Friend, I’ve been a Southern Baptist all of my life. And my husband was active duty (now retired) military for the first 14 years of our marriage. I can vouch for everything you have said about the military and fundies……. and then some.
    I’ve personally experienced both good and bad in both camps from both sexes ……. you can throw in a little racism, too.

  22. Deb Will,

    Yup, real Christlike behavior! ..
    heck, if the are mot careful, they might get over run with pinko communist! you would think after 70 plus years, the fear mongers could up with a better boogie man!

  23. Muff Potter: Even if there’s disagreement in the overlap betwixt the two, we’re all rational adults here at TWW, and are perfectly capable of handling it in a civil fashion.

    I’m going to try my best not to push any political agenda. I just want to say:

    My hubby and I are of different political parties, though we are currently in agreement on most aspects at hand.
    Politically, I disagree vehemently with my father, mother, daughter, and son-in-law right now, but that doesn’t stop us from being a family. We are often in the same automobiles and in the same homes together. (My daughter and my dad clash on everything except politics!)

    If a bunch of hard-headed, opinionated Kentuckians can get along in spite of our differences, surely we can disagree agreeably on TWW! Aren’t we family, too??!!!

  24. Jeffrey Chalmers: Yup, real Christlike behavior! ..

    Yup! Never mind what Jesus said ……… love thy neighbor as thyself; do unto others as you would have them do unto you ………
    That’s all anti-Christ conspiracy stuff now!
    Back to the Old Testament for God’s (ahem) “chosen race”!

  25. Check out its connection Groyper, I believe it is a white nationalist movement and their plan for election 2024 is concerning.

  26. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): different

    A family on our street had signs go up before an election, honoring different constituencies. The patriarch of that household was very proud that every adult in that household was exercising their right to choose, and to vote. He had immigrated from a one-party regime country. He said those varying signs from his very own family was EXACTLY why he came to the US. “Want it all one way? Go to where I came from – you will have exactly that. I am Christian, but even all “Christian” may indicate no choice, or “Christian” in title only,” he said.

    Notably, though, all generations & both genders in his household treated each other (and everyone else) with a high level of respect & courtesy. Never a 4-letter word, nothing pejorative or degrading to a person. They all agreed on respect for people, all people, all the time. They also all worked. Lots of cars in that driveway as the kids grew up.

  27. After George Floyd was murdered this summer, someone painted the same CU rock with “Black Lives Matter” and posted a photo of it on Twitter. By morning, however, others had painted a line through “Black” and wrote the word “All” above it. CU students of color responded by sharing that on Twitter. In sharing the two photos (before & after shots), one person tweeted, “CEDARVILLE UNIVERSITY PRIDES ITSELF ON DIVERSITY YET THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED YESTERDAY. BLACK STUDENTS DONT [sic] FEEL SAFE HERE NOR HEARD.” (We saved the screen shot of this but it won’t paste it here.) Perhaps, now we know who painted over it!

    This article is really disturbing about Turning Point USA for another reason, too. In the midst of our investigations the past several months, we discovered that the white supremacy group Identity Evropa (IE) has had a presence on CU’s campus. IE is now known as AIM–American Identity Movement–and was instrumental in planning, promoting, and participating in the Charlottesville, Virginia “Unite the Right”/KKK rally that resulted in the death of Heather Heyer and the injuries of 19 others. Two members of AIM, one who lives in Colorado, and one who lives in Cedarville, are brothers who were exposed as IE/AIM members two years ago after Unicorn Riot hacked into white supremacist organizations’ sites. (One brother is a CU alumnus; the other is a senior this year.) We confirmed that the one in Colorado is still active. We don’t know if the one in Cedarville is still active. We do know he was suspended for a semester after he was caught hanging flyers on campus for IE, and that is the good news. The bad news is that he was then allowed to return to campus last year to continue his studies. So Cedarville does at least have a limit, and we assume this student has kept his nose clean. Perhaps, he was even deradicalized (we hope so). But we just don’t know for sure.

    CU’s limit doesn’t extend to the insensitive posts by these Turning Point USA students, who certainly do violate the spirit of the CU community covenant students have to abide by. But nearly everyone at CU is beholden to Trump’s version of the GOP, something the IE member actually bragged about when he posted on their discussion board (he’d bragged that he’d never get in trouble for hanging the flyers since 99% of CU was Republican). Thankfully, he was wrong about that, but Turning Point USA pretty much represents the GOP in CU’s mind, so CU approves of it.

    We can certainly confirm that under Pres. Brown, there was a student Democrat org and that it was banned after Cedarville U cut its philosophy major. Why? Because the two philosophy professors at the time wrote an article for the student newspaper regarding the problems they had with Mitt Romney, explaining why they would not be voting for him. They did not ever say they’d be voting for Barack Obama, but writing against the GOP was enough to cause a fire storm. Hundreds of CU alumni wrote in, outraged, and the trustees were equally outraged. In the end, because the philosophy professors both had tenure, CU cut the major altogether to just to get rid of the professors. (The philosophy majors enrolled at CU at the time transferred to other schools like Calvin University).

    All of that was happening the same year Pres. Brown and VP of Student Life Carl Ruby were also being forced out. At the time, the trustees lied and said both men had resigned, but the trustees openly and proudly admit these days that they fired them. In fact, in a recent meeting between the leaders on the trustee board and academic deans and chairs, the trustees said they surely could have and would have fired White because they’d already fired Brown. They used Brown as an example of a firing they’d done, in other words. But of course, they rationalized why they didn’t fire White.

  28. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): If a bunch of hard-headed, opinionated Kentuckians can get along in spite of our differences, surely we can disagree agreeably on TWW! Aren’t we family, too??!!!

    YES!
    Yes.
    And Yes.

  29. By the way y’all, what’s a seventeen year old kid doing with a military grade assault weapon?

  30. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): different

    At a luncheon in the spring, a woman mentioned that she and her husband were of two different political parties and viewpoints. Nobody said, “Good for you!” Nobody asked how they were holding up. Two people badgered her: “How could you be, when one of you served in the military?” “How can you stand it?” “What do you talk about?”

    Over and over she said, “We’re fine. We just don’t discuss politics.” But still they kept on. How could she possibly love someone who didn’t share her political opinions?

    Having paid handsomely in advance for the luncheon, I politely shoved forkfuls of cake into my mouth and left. 😉

  31. Off topic, but I am watching the NASCAR race at Daytona as I write this. The number 24 car of William Byron is carrying Liberty University as his primary sponsor! He is in 4th place right now.

  32. Muff Potter: By the way y’all, what’s a seventeen year old kid doing with a military grade assault weapon?

    I live in a State that has “open carry” … some of the characters packing heat in plain sight are downright scary. In fact, I talked to a wild-looking fellow with a handgun strapped to his belt a few minutes ago in a grocery store parking lot – he asked for directions to a nearby business. Strange days … America feels like a powder keg.

  33. Ken P.: Off topic, but I am watching the NASCAR race at Daytona as I write this. The number 24 car of William Byron is carrying Liberty University as his primary sponsor! He is in 4th place right now.

    He’s trying to win it for “The Gipper” (i.e., JF Junior)

  34. Ken P.: NASCAR

    On the radio this morning I heard about the mountains of tax dollars that Liberty receives for enrolling certain students, such as military members and veterans, especially online. I guess they have to spend your tax dollars and mine on something, eh? I do wonder if Junior received yacht access as part of the deal… which would likely be illegal.

    Separately, my belief is that the driver is not caught up in Junior’s personal sleaze. A sponsor is a sponsor. Liberty was sponsoring him before signing the deal with yacht owner Hendrick in 2016.

  35. Max: He’s trying to win it for “The Gipper” (i.e., JF Junior)

    Maybe he just wants to make the playoffs and go on to the Daytona 500. 😉

  36. Friend,

    There are also the lure of student loans. Easy money for the university but a millstone for the student if they take out so much that they cannot pay it off.

  37. Erp: student loans

    Are you talking about LU benefiting from federal loans to students? I think the student applies for the loan to pay tuition, room, and board, and Liberty would get the money indirectly.

    I believe the mechanism for funneling federal dollars to LU to educate military members and vets under the GI Bill is more direct than that.

    Not sure exactly how any of this works, but any student who goes to LU with the quasi-religious idea that government is bad, or government money corrupts, should realize that LU is benefiting from both.

  38. Hmm, I wonder how much tax money goes to Cedarville?

    Their ROTC program has something to do with the government, now, doesn’t it?

  39. Friend: On the radio this morning I heard about the mountains of tax dollars that Liberty receives for enrolling certain students, such as military members and veterans, especially online. I guess they have to spend your tax dollars and mine on something, eh?

    Remember Ayn Rand got herself on Medicare and Social Security as soon as she qualified. Had a Totally Objectivist Rationalization for it, too.

  40. Muff Potter:
    By the way y’all, what’s a seventeen year old kid doing with a military grade assault weapon?

    Turner Diaries: the Live Role-Playing Game?

  41. Friend: Maddie Beth Scott might be surprised to learn that everyone who sets foot on a US military base must wear a mask indoors and out (except under some circumstances). Troops give up a lot of their free speech rights, as well as their human rights to refuse medical care under some circumstances.

    There’s a reason no American Military Base has had a major COVID outbreak or Superspreader Event. When things started going south, base commanders instituted quarantine and epidemic precautions including mandatory masking. (There’s probably a standard contingency plan for an outbreak of contagious disease.) The only outbreaks were in the early days of the pandemic, on Navy ships at sea where crowded conditions worked against any attempt at on-board quarantine or isolation. (Like what happened on those cruise ships except worse.)

  42. Muff Potter:
    By the way y’all, what’s a seventeen year old kid doing with a military grade assault weapon?

    Turner Diaries: the Live Role-Playing Game?

    Muff Potter: Given the subject matter and tenor of the post, how is it possible to not engage its political elements?

    Especially in a time when churches themselves have become thoroughly politicized.

    TWW seems to specialize in New Calvinism and sexual abuse whistleblowing. OK.
    For other, more “political” subjects, why doesn’t TWW partner with some other blogs that DO cover that subject and refer people to them?

    As an example, Wondering Eagle has been covering the problems with JFJr and LU (and other situation with political elements) for some time. So has The Way of Improvement Leads Home (though Prof. Fea has had to shut down comments the past couple months because of a heavy work schedule).

  43. Another oops on my part.

    Blog was down for a bit overnight. The total size has grown to the point where I now have to active manage disk space instead of pretending it is infinite. My bad.

    GBTC

  44. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Real life cosplay… heck, the reported “leader of largest “Christian University”, and “leading Spokesman for evangelicalism”, does cosplay of a pretty disgusting show!

  45. GuyBehindtheCurtain: I now have to active manage disk space instead of pretending it is infinite.

    In case you didn’t know, the connectivity is still intermittent. Thanks from here as well.

  46. Friend,

    Email me if it keeps happening.

    On a different note there’s a major outage in the RDU area of NC. And the issue is with with an “upstream” provider so it could just be central NC with some ISPs or the eastern US. Oh, well. Great way to spend my Sunday morning.

  47. Headless Unicorn Guy: There’s a reason no American Military Base has had a major COVID outbreak or Superspreader Event. When things started going south, base commanders instituted quarantine and epidemic precautions including mandatory masking.

    Our military needs to stay healthy so they can step in to help all the Americans who wouldn’t wear masks … if required to enforce quarantines, coordinate emergency shipments, etc. If we aren’t taking this ‘war’ seriously, they will.

  48. Max,

    Just to clarify, the active duty military would not be enforcing quarantines. I’m not even sure that the National Guard would do that. Even if they did, they would be called up by state governors. They sometimes help during natural disasters and rioting.

    Some states do have enforcement, done sporadically by handing out tickets. Some states and local governments are threatening the licenses of businesses that ignore emergency health regulations. The bigger threat is probably from insurers, but nobody complains about that.

    To be crystal clear: the Army is not going to shut down a church full of people who think Jesus gives the immunity.

    The troops need to be healthy 1) because everybody should be healthy, and 2) to protect the US from being attacked by foreign powers who would quickly learn that we were unable to defend ourselves on land, sea, and air.

  49. GuyBehindtheCurtain:
    On a different note there’s a major outage in the RDU area of NC. And the issue is with with an “upstream” provider so it could just be central NC with some ISPs or the eastern US. Oh, well. Great way to spend my Sunday morning.

    There was a national outage at CenturyLink early this morning Pacific Time. Why yes, I got pages waking me out of a dead sleep letting me know. Things are back to normal now.

  50. Friend: To be crystal clear: the Army is not going to shut down a church full of people who think Jesus gives the immunity.

    Just to point out that US troops cannot be used specifically for internal policing purposes under the Posse Comitatus Act. So, for example, when you hear about the Army going to the border, they’re not patrolling. They’re doing other things to release the people who would normally do those things into patrolling.

    That said, there is the Insurrection Act of 1807 and its modifications. If the Act were invoked, then troops could be sent into states for policing. Usually, the state’s governor has to give permission, but the president can overrule that. The Insurrection Act was used most recently (at the invitation of state governors) in 1989 to send troops to help with policing in the wake of Hurricane Hugo, and in 1992 during the Los Angeles riots. President George W. Bush considered overruling Louisiana’s governor in 2005 in the wake of Katrina and sending in troops, but that did not happen.

    There is a lot of talk being bandied about regarding the Insurrection Act this morning and I thought I’d just mention this.

  51. Jeffrey Chalmers:
    Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Real life cosplay… heck, the reported “leader oflargest “Christian University”, and “leadingSpokesman for evangelicalism”, does cosplay of a pretty disgusting show!

    Rich White Trash does cosplay of Poor White Trash.

  52. If a CU student wants to read about, let’s say, “how to spot grooming behavior”, … I assume that CU policies permit that exercise of intellectual (and practical) curiosity. There isn’t a “great firewall” around the campus, or is there?

    I assume that a student could bring books about this onto campus to study in the “privacy” of a dorm room. Would it be permissible to discuss what one was reading with other students? Or to meet informally on a schedule for such discussions?

    Plainly, student “org” for this purpose is not permitted. What does that mean, practically — that “free assembly” to discuss the issue is not permitted, or simply that it can’t be done under the aegis of a campus-approved entity?

    Does the CU ban on certain “orgs” (such as College Democrats and the would-be SASA) have a practical effect on what students are allowed to talk and think about? Or is it mostly in effect a ban on posting advertisements of meetings on campus?

    I’m not trying to justify or defend CU (my prior comments should indicate the degree to which I do not sympathize with the administration), but to discern the limits that the attitude of the administration actually places on the freedom of thought and expression on campus.

  53. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Yup.. it REALLY disgusts me….to me, that is much worse than the “sex” stuff… but in evangelical/fundy world, it always about sex…
    No biggie making funs of the poor.. Christ said something about this..

  54. Jeffrey Chalmers: Christ said something about this..

    Not to mention that oft-quoted text from Proverbs 17, that one hears preached on so often,

    “Whoever mocks the poor shows contempt for their maker”

  55. Friend: However, in real life, the bare-legged bullies of TPUSA at CU get to post photos and text that looks both threatening and disparaging.

    It is a bit disconcerting to contemplate that by a leader of a student group meeting in a “christian setting”. Meetings of believers ought to have some element of “encouragement to love and good deeds”. OTOH, perhaps for the participants of this group, sthat is there conception of ‘love and good deeds’ (toward the favored group)

  56. Friend: the bare-legged bullies of TPUSA at CU get to post photos and text that looks both threatening and disparaging

    How “athletic” (TM)

  57. Out of curiosity, I poked around the CU website looking for their plans for the Autumn semester.

    It looks like they will operate with students mostly in residence, but with exceptions for students with elevated risk due to underlying conditions.

    https://blogs.cedarville.edu/coronavirus-updates/2020/07/july-20-update-caring-well-staying-well-operating-plan-now-available/

    Students with symptoms will self-quarantine in the dorms — but may have room-mates. I did not see explicit statement of what the options for the room-mate of a quarantined person would be.

    There is some push-back in the comments to the above about these policies.

    Masking will be mandatory in classes, but not in the dorms.

    I have the impression that there is evidence in recent days, in secular education contexts, that this may not work well.

    I’ve seen cynical commentary on one of these institutions (UNC, I think) that interpreted the re-opening plan re: residential instruction to be a “bait and switch” for the purpose of locking in residence fees.

    It will be very interesting to see what happens at CU.

  58. Frederick Copleston in vol 7 of his History of Philosophy mentions how Absolutism e.g of Hegel grew from debased romantic nationalism e.g of Herder. Does “Manifest Destiny”, which Black Israelites don’t like (but Scofieldists and crypto-Scofieldists might well do), have to do with this?

  59. OT, for “Off Topic”, not “Old Testament”. 🙂 (And praying all the WordPress on-off tags match.)

    GuyBehindtheCurtain: Another oops on my part.

    Blog was down for a bit overnight. The total size has grown to the point where I now have to active manage disk space instead of pretending it is infinite….

    My sympathies, GBTC.

    I’ve been one of the (both paid and unpaid) “nerds” (my preferred reference to myself 🙂 ) doing IT work and computer programming.

    GBTC, Sun Aug 30, 2020 at 10:07 AM: “On a different note there’s a major outage….And the issue is with with an “upstream” provider so it could just be ….Oh, well. Great way to spend my Sunday morning.”

    Friend, Sun Aug 30, 2020 at 09:39 AM: “In case you didn’t know, the connectivity is still intermittent…..”

    I have found that there can be many analogies from the world of computers and computer programming that can be applied (with greater or lesser success) to life.

    I have a “different” sense of humour, and an unusual way of seeing and observing the world.

    When I was able to successfully connect to (and read some of), TWW this morning, I was able to put together some unusual “events” of last night and this morning.

    In “computerese” (though, as sometimes happens in the world of computers, not necessarily in a logical fashion, nor adequately documented):

    Stack overflow.

    System overload.

    System shutdown.

    …..processing…. (Take break.)

    Power up.

    CASE (HOME). (Variable HOME = connect to (and read some of) TWW.)

    System crash.

    Troubleshoot.

    Find bug.

    “Fix” bug.

    Document bug, and bug’s “fix”.

    Update firmware (which rewrites the image, boot block, etc.). (FWIW, I HATE the stress of doing firmware (BIOS) updates!!).

    Restart system.

    Allow time for system to FULLY come online.

    Document (in some fashion), those involved in the process.

    (Pointed note to myself: Sometimes “powering up” (i.e. drinking coffee) BEFORE attempting to call HOME (in this CASE, check TWW) greatly improves focus.)

    🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 , etc.

  60. Justice Collective,

    Your comment provided me with much food for thought….

    I am unable to clarify or expand on my thoughts (in any number of ways, for any number of reasons) because the complexities of the issues involved keep running on an infinite loop in my mind. Very big sigh.

    And some of the issues noted in my paragraph above would get my comment placed in customs (if I have TWW terminology correct).

  61. researcher: placed in customs

    Yes, that’s the lingo. My mental image is that Dee’s pug Tulip is sniffing the luggage, while drstevej is under the table too. He doesn’t sniff luggage, though. His keypad has only a single character, the number 1.

    Notice I said this is my mental image… 😉

  62. Thank you for your research. I continue to be disturbed and concerned about Cedarville. Something is greatly amiss there, and I am grateful for this post which is shedding the light and sharing the truth in what apprears to be becoming a very dark place. God knows the evil motives. Remove, and then carefully, and prayerfully replace leadership. May those behind the scenes become even more empowered.

  63. A few “protesters” are protesters, but a lot aren’t, and some police commanders have “defunded” their own subordinates already, and it’s obviously an unprecedented breakdown in a great many towns and all political parties. I daresay there are deaths we don’t get to hear about because they are the “wrong kind” of sensational. I have read several times about arsonists burning black businesses and police arresting black business owners for trying (and getting genuine friends to help) to defend their own businesses. I saw photos of entire blocks demolished.

    There are people being beaten up in England now. CU is just plain insincere in giving Ruhler its umbrella. Rev Rob Schenck testified about how donors instructed him to spread fear (that was before the arson began), which he has stopped doing. The pressures which have rotted church authorities have rotted secular powers too. The connection with “black lives” comes through the segregationist Scofieldist who together with Bannon (who is machinating through the naive Benjamin Harnwell), JP II of “body theology”, and the latter’s current absolutist successor, is the world face of so called “Christianity”.

  64. Max,

    Truth is coming out that masks aren’t preventing much if mortality numbers were being fudged big-time.

    “This week the CDC quietly updated the Covid number to admit that only 6% of all the 153,504 deaths recorded actually died from Covid

    That’s 9,210 deaths

    The other 94% had 2-3 other serious illnesses & the overwhelming majority were of very advanced age”

    https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/08/shock-report-week-cdc-quietly-updated-covid-19-numbers-9210-americans-died-covid-19-alone-rest-serious-illnesses/#post-comments

  65. Disturbing post to be sure. Awful. I think it is inflammatory to show the first quote as if Kyle Rittenhouse ever said that. Is there ant evidence he said that Todd? You are leaving it out there like this 17 Year old actually said that. I don’t see any evidence he actually said that.
    He’s a seventeen year old kid Todd. I think better of you than that.

  66. Ken A,

    Ken A, Todd is not the one who posted that quote.
    This is a screen shot of a post Jacob Uhler put on his Instagram account. Jack Uhler ~~ vice-president of a CU (a so-called Christian university) sanctioned organization ~~ did this, not Todd.

    Todd is only bringing it to our attention. I, for one, am glad Todd is paying attention to outrageous acts like this.

  67. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    No, it’s not, not really, not when discussing the law of the land and what that entails.
    But then again, I remember an instance where I got put in the penalty box for pointing out the ramifications of the Glass Steagall act of 1932 and how it got signed away by Bill Clinton.

  68. Ken,

    Take a look at figures for excess deaths in the US from ALL CAUSES since January 2019. You will see that the US has had unusually high numbers of deaths since 28 March 2020.

    https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm

    Before you try to undermine medical data gathered all over the nation with an article from an extremist “news” site, ask yourself this:

    WHY are so many Americans dying?

    If not from covid, then is everybody lying? Are we all slipping in the tub? Is every school board agonizing over decisions Just Because They Can?

  69. Ken: The other 94% had 2-3 other serious illnesses & the overwhelming majority were of very advanced age”

    This is an insidious message. It shrugs off the premature deaths of old people and people who were otherwise doing well in management of diabetes, low-stage cancers, and so on.

    You might be interested in this table, which shows life expectancy at different ages. An infant has a life expectancy of 80.96 years. An 80-year-old has an additional life expectancy of 9.68 additional years. That’s almost a decade of being a good neighbor, grandparent, and all-around valuable member of humankind.

    https://www.ssa.gov/OACT/STATS/table4c6.html

  70. Friend,

    This is how incels talk. This is how men talk who sexually abuse very young children in their families. This is how insecure 14 year old boys talk.

    So childish. Real men do not talk like this.

  71. Friend,

    A month ago my cousin’s 17 year old son died of covid. He was big in sports. Now her house just burnt down in Lake Charles. This has been a living hell year for so many people.

    I am not Italian, but I cried every day I read about the mass death in Italy. I don’t know how they could stand it.

  72. Friend: This is an insidious message. It shrugs off the premature deaths of old people and people who were otherwise doing well in management of diabetes, low-stage cancers, and so on.

    Thank you for saying this. In my personal circles of family and friends, the people who have approached the epidemic with the most fortitude and grace are all those in their 70s or 80s. Their perspective has been stabilizing and comforting.

    Even if one approaches life with a utilitarian viewpoint (in which case, you have my deepest sympathy), the loss of a generation of “grandparent” figures is going to have social and psychological consequences. https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2013/11/mass-killings-can-haunt-elephants-decades

  73. ‘Canadian humanitarian worker Peter Dalglish arrested in child sex investigation in Nepal, police say‘

    https://globalnews.ca/news/4137871/peter-dalglish-canadian-humanitarian-arrested-nepal/

    “According to police, Dalglish was taken from a home in a district north of Kathmandu. Police said in a statement two girls, 12 and 14 years old, were “rescued” from the home. Police allege children were lured with a promise of education and foreign travel before they were sexually abused.“

    “In 2016, then-governor general David Johnston inducted Dalglish as a member of the Order of Canada, for “his efforts to alleviate child poverty worldwide, notably by establishing and leading Street Kids. Dalglish, along with two partners, launched Street Kids International in 1988, a charity that focused on helping street youth to lead better lives. In 1994, Street Kids International received the Peter F. Drucker Award for Non-Profit Innovation.“

  74. JDV:
    ‘Canadian humanitarian worker Peter Dalglish arrested in child sex investigation in Nepal, police say‘

    https://globalnews.ca/news/4137871/peter-dalglish-canadian-humanitarian-arrested-nepal/

    “According to police, Dalglish was taken from a home in a district north of Kathmandu. Police said in a statement two girls, 12 and 14 years old, were “rescued” from the home. Police allege children were lured with a promise of education and foreign travel before they were sexually abused.“

    “In 2016, then-governor general David Johnston inducted Dalglish as a member of the Order of Canada, for “his efforts to alleviate child poverty worldwide, notably by establishing and leading Street Kids. Dalglish, along with two partners, launched Street Kids International in 1988, a charity that focused on helping street youth to lead better lives. In 1994, Street Kids International received the Peter F. Drucker Award for Non-Profit Innovation.“

    Saw this posted in a comments section, didn’t realize it was two years old. Turns out he’s serving a whopping 9 year sentence

  75. Ken,

    This is not “new” information. Those of us scientifically following COVID have known this since last February/March. Just look at Italy! We knew that a large majority of deaths from COVID were people with “pre-existing” condition. My facebook page from that period shows that data. That is one of the primary reasons older people are dying at a much higher rate… older people statistically have more “pre-existing conditions”. Guess what, diabetes, while a leading contributor to death in the US, does not actually “kill people”… it is the co-morbidity that does, such as heart/circulatory disease which is accelerated by diabetes.

  76. Ken: Truth is coming out that masks aren’t preventing much if mortality numbers were being fudged big-time.

    “This week the CDC quietly updated the Covid number to admit that only 6% of all the 153,504 deaths recorded actually died from Covid

    That’s 9,210 deaths

    The other 94% had 2-3 other serious illnesses & the overwhelming majority were of very advanced age”

    This is so incredibly misleading, especially since so many Americans have comorbidities. For example, if I were to get and die from COVID-19, what you’re quoting here would have me in the “didn’t die of COVID-19” bucket because I have diabetes and am obese. It wouldn’t matter that my diabetes is very well controlled or that I’m 40 pounds lighter than I was five years ago.

    Do you see how insidious and flatly WRONG this is?

  77. Ken: Truth is coming out that masks aren’t preventing much if mortality numbers were being fudged big-time.

    Fake news.

  78. Ken,

    So, I guess no big deal that my friend did not die of COVID, even though he was sick for 10 weeks and has lung damage? Not all the infected, non lethal COVID, is asymptomatic…
    Further, there are plenty of viral diseases out there that you never really get rid of, chickenpox that comes back as shingles, 20-50 years later, HIV that we still do not have a vaccine for, genital herpes, HPV, which, until the last 10 years did not have a vaccine for, and which can cause NASTY head and neck cancer..
    My point is, we do not know enough about COVID-19 yet, and it could be just like these other “nasties”… but then again, I am just of of the “deep state” scientist…

  79. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: Do you see how insidious and flatly WRONG this is?

    It is TRVTH!!!!!
    All else is FAKE NEWS! FAKE NEWS! FAKE NEWS!

    Just this weekend I had to endure a lecture about how the CDC or WHO were REALLY on tboard with the COMMUNIST Chinese plan to destroy our economy through pandemic lockdown.

  80. Friend: Jacob Uhler writes, “I am an alpha in a sea of betas. Would that it were not so! I call on other alphas to join me and I call on the betas to learn from us and grow.”

    “RULERS OF TOMORROW! MASTER RACE!”
    — Ralph Bakshi, Wizards

  81. Samuel Conner: Students with symptoms will self-quarantine in the dorms — but may have room-mates. I did not see explicit statement of what the options for the room-mate of a quarantined person would be.

    “It Is What It Is.”

  82. Guest: Friend,

    This is how incels talk.

    Like “Saint” Roger Elliot, AKA the Santa Barbara Shooter?
    Who left an internet trail of one Manifesto and thousands of Selfies, Selfies, Selfies?

  83. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    I guess the academic seminar I heard 20 years ago predicting the possibility of a world wide pandemic from the combination of a typical human virus, and a animal virus was part of the “communist, secular humanist, atheistic, world wide conspiracy”. Oh, left out the Jewish bankers in that list..
    That seminar I saw was quite fascinating…. the science behind it is very interesting, never mind that it is also potentially terrifying

  84. Headless Unicorn Guy: Samuel Conner: Students with symptoms will self-quarantine in the dorms — but may have room-mates.

    Our son is going back to college but they’ve put everyone in Single rooms (not everyone is returning to campus), and once they move in they are confined to rooms (except bathroom) until they get 2 negative COVID tests. Another University near us has certain dorm rooms they send ‘Positive’ COVID test people to (with private bathrooms) until the isolation period is over.

  85. Ken,

    thegatewaypundit is notorious for telling falsehoods and sending out misinformation. The writer has been sued several times.
    But, believe it if you want to ……… it’s your prerogative.

    My mom (diabetic), my dad (heart condition), and I are all in the high risk category. But, I guess people like us don’t really matter. We’d just be collateral damage in the eyes of the “true believers”.

    I have had a stroke; I have Chronic Fatigue Syndrome; and, I go to a cancer center routinely for tests because I have had high white blood cell count for years.

    I’m not going to bet my literal life on the words of someone who has repeatedly been proven to be a liar.
    I choose to believe scientists and medical professionals, and behave accordingly.

  86. readingalong,

    When I first saw the name you used for commenting, I thought “How appropriate!”

    When I was deciding what name to use for commenting at TWW, I was tempted to use “readingalong” and add on a further identifier.

    No offence to you intended and pun on the name “readingalong” intended, I finally chose “researcher”, but I still much prefer “readingalong”. 🙂

  87. readingalong,

    Some colleges are posting their testing data online, so everyone can see how many cases, if any, have been detected.

    One college did fall move-in over many days. After an outbreak of worrying size, they postponed further arrivals on campus. I think they are doing all-virtual learning for 2 weeks, working to stop the outbreak, and hoping to resume move-in.

    A state university is emailing a certain number of random students each day to come in for a free covid test. This will help with detection of asymptomatic cases.

    Some universities are having trouble getting test results in a timely manner. I know of one that is buying its own equipment and rapid tests.

    Campus apps are out there too.

    My hope is that colleges will find solutions as they try to protect students from covid and keep education going. The rest of us might benefit from their findings.

  88. Friend,

    I have heard and read of some colleges that are testing wastewater from the dorms, so when they see the virus in the wastewater, they then test all that dorm’s occupants, which seems a pretty cool way to target testing.

  89. readingalong: testing wastewater from the dorms, so when they see the virus in the wastewater, they then test all that dorm’s occupants, which seems a pretty cool way to target

    It would be great if there was a way to test the theological sewage coming out of a church without having to step inside to experience it. It would help with finding a new church. But I digress.

  90. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): Headless Unicorn Guy: alpha in a sea of betas.

    HUG, don’t alphas in seas of betas usually eat their own?

    What do Predators eat after they’ve eaten all the Prey?

  91. readingalong: Our son is going back to college but they’ve put everyone in Single rooms (not everyone is returning to campus), and once they move in they are confined to rooms (except bathroom) until they get 2 negative COVID tests.Another University near us has certain dorm rooms they send ‘Positive’ COVID test people to (with private bathrooms) until the isolation period is over.

    Sounds like they’re being pretty sensible about quarantine.

    They’ll need COVID tests with a turnaround time of a day or two (instead of weeks) to make it work, though. Quick-turnaround tests that are NOT over-sensitive to the point of a lot of false positives.

  92. Guest: Friend,

    This is how incels talk. … This is how insecure 14 year old boys talk.

    Technically, I’m an InCel by the original definition of the term. The difference between me and those InCels on the InCel boards is that I Got Myself a Life that DOESN’T Depend on Perfect 10s Throwing Themselves At Me with Spread Legs. Yes, it’s lonely. Yes, never being attractive to RL women is a bummer. But I didn’t upload InCel Manifestos or brutalize anyone without a Y Chromosome. I Got Myself a Life.

    And there are a LOT of “insecure 14 year old boys” (if not three-year-old toddlers) walking around in adult bodies. Perpetual Adolescence (Peter Pan Syndrome) used to be a Baby Boomer thing, but they’ve managed to infect their Millenial Mini-Me Keeper Kids (after discarding the first-try Gen Xers).

  93. Friend: If not from covid, then is everybody lying? Are we all slipping in the tub? Is every school board agonizing over decisions Just Because They Can?

    No, because they’re ALL part of The Vast Conspiracy.

  94. Friend: I look at him and don’t see an alpha. I see a young jacka$$ in ugly shorts striking a pose on a rock. He’s living in a fantasy world.

    And he would sneer at guys like me (SF fan, FRP gamer, Furry, Brony) for “Living in a Fantasy World (unlike MEEEEEEEEEEE)” Because we’re not living in HIS Fantasy World (with himself on top receiving Praise and Adoration like the worst sort of Author Self-Insert Mary Sue).

    During the Twilight craze, I noticed that fantasies in RL settings (like Twilight, 50 Shades, or Harlequin Romances) are even more likely to detach you into your own Fantasy world/Black hole than any of the fantasy worlds in my frontal lobes. Because I KNOW a My Little Pony unicorn from The Magical Land of Equestria won’t show up at my front door and throw herself on me. However, a human Harlequin Romance Stud (actually its female equivalent) or sparkly Vampire from a RL high school in a RL town in Washington State… THAT has just enough underpinning RL tie-ins to blur the line between fantasy and reality and suck you in past the event horizon/point of no return. It’s a Fantasy from a Fantasy World that DOESN’T look like a Fantasy World, but The Real World. (And I say this as someone who got his handle from a Magic Realist fantasy short. Even with Magic Realism, there IS a difference.)

  95. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    You are far more accomplished than young mister Rock Poseur. I daresay most folks on TWW are.

    I have lots of worries about guys like him, not least of which is that his fantasy world celebrates firesticks that go boom in the real world.

  96. readingalong: I have heard and read of some colleges that are testing wastewater from the dorms, so when they see the virus in the wastewater, they then test all that dorm’s occupants, which seems a pretty cool way to target testing.

    Now THAT sounds like a cool idea!!

  97. Ken F (aka Tweed): It would be great if there was a way to test the theological sewage coming out of a church without having to step inside to experience it. It would help with finding a new church.

    🙂

  98. This is all extremely troubling to me and I hear similar sentiments from friends whom I had considered Christians. As Jesus said, no man can serve two masters. If “culture wars” are the mission, then Jesus Christ no longer is. And, NO, they are NOT one and the same. The one who said “love your neighbor as yourself,” and “love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,” would not celebrate violence and killing. He refused to even engage on political themes during his lifetime.

    “I have this against you, that you have left your first love,” he said. “Not all who say to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven.” “Many who are first will be last.”

    I’m seriously beginning to think that the current situation looks like 2Thes 2, fulfilled.

  99. Jeffrey Chalmers: We knew that a large majority of deaths from COVID were people with “pre-existing” condition.

    How many people have zero pre-existing conditions?

    It almost seems like the underlying message of a lot of those kind of posts is that only younger people with perfect health really have a right to live.

  100. Friend:
    Jacob Uhler writes, “I am an alpha in a sea of betas. Would that it were not so! I call on other alphas to join me and I call on the betas to learn from us and grow.”

    This language is so popular among white supremacists, among men who think the world owes them a living, and among men who think consent does not exist in relationships.

    I have 100% learned that anyone who refers to himself as an ‘alpha’ is badnewsbears in some way or another.

    That response to the application for the anti sexual assault group was a lot.

  101. Headless Unicorn Guy: Just this weekend I had to endure a lecture about how the CDC or WHO were REALLY on tboard with the COMMUNIST Chinese plan to destroy our economy through pandemic lockdown.

    Just recently I’ve had extended conversations with 2 people who I thought were committed, level-headed Christians, who have bought into conspiracy theories. I’m confounded, I don’t even know what to say to them anymore.

  102. The university where I work is not having undergraduates come back on campus this Fall quarter with some exceptions (mostly I suspect international students); grad students will be allowed. Those students on campus will be tested weekly (plus additional tests if contact tracing). Isolation facilities and confirming tests for those testing positive. Staff and faculty working on campus will also be tested though in a different fashion. Teaching will be mostly online even for on-campus students. I suspect they might be testing waste water if that is physically possible. Also most of the central campus will be closed to the general public (much to the dismay of locals because it is a popular walking and picnicking area). Now if the county will only padlock the doors of North Valley Baptist (local megachurch insisting on indoor mass services) a couple of cities away (they are racking up $5,000 fine per service). At least their college is going online for the next few months.

  103. About an hour ago I was informed that my 21 year-old niece tested positive for COVID-19. She has mild symptoms and is fit, strong, and spirited, so we are fairly confident that she will be okay.

  104. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): 21 year-old niece

    I hope she has all of the skilled medical help she needs, as well as a way to quarantine herself while keeping her spirits up.

    Several people I know have made it through the full quarantine. Texting (etc.) with friends helped them a lot.

  105. SiiteSeer: no man can serve two masters.

    In Southern Baptist world, this is preached. Yet, married women are required to serve two masters. I can’t make sense of it (any of it), so I quit.
    It wasn’t that way in the pre-Resurgence days.

  106. Friend,

    Thank you.
    She is under a 14-day quarantine, and family members have her back. She lives 8 miles from her dad, grandparents, and her aunt(me) and uncle —- rural roads……I can be at her house in 10 minutes!
    She has more family members little farther away.
    ……. her step-mom is a physical therapist and my cousin’s wife is a nurse-practitioner.
    We’ve got her covered on all fronts. All she has to do is call …… and we will be calling to check on her.

  107. Friend: By their tweets ye shall know them.

    I don’t use social media like Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, etc.. And as a general rule, I only follow links to the occasional Twitter account (tweet) or YouTube video if it pertains to my research into a variety of different issues.

    Although handy (and I will use them if absolutely necessary), I greatly dislike the computer Chat option provided by companies when customers have questions. This Chat style of communication is (for me) similar to what I understand to be instant-messaging.

    My choice to avoid the use of social media does not come from a place of judgement – like pretty much everything, there is the good, the bad, and the ugly.

    My choice to avoid the use of social media (and Youtube-style etc. presentations) comes from a complex combination of physical and non-physical variables.

    Basically, I cannot (for any number of reasons) process the (for me) rapid-fire-communication styles fast enough to keep up with the (for me) rapid-fire-style conversation(s).

    I usually can stay on top of issues, but there ARE times when it takes me a while to catch up to everyone else…..

  108. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): About an hour ago I was informed that my 21 year-old niece tested positive for COVID-19. She has mild symptoms and is fit, strong, and spirited, so we are fairly confident that she will be okay.

    I REALLY don’t want to come across as trite…adding your 21 year-old niece to the many positive-testing COVID-19 folks already in my daily prayers.

  109. Friend,

    Max</a: Fake news.

    Max, is this fake news too?

    https://blog.nomorefakenews.com/category/covid/page/2/

    BTW – since you have a keen sense of how the church has succumbed to manipulation, lies, propaganda, abuse of authority, nepotism, etc, of its leaders, and therefore has stifled the headship of Christ in His body – how is it that good people here with similar senses of smell and shared experiences seem to have the inability to transfer that same sniff test and critical thinking to our medical industry that is currently controlling our lives?

    Asking for a friend. 🙂

  110. Headless Unicorn Guy: There’s a reason no American Military Base has had a major COVID outbreak or Superspreader Event. When things started going south, base commanders instituted quarantine and epidemic precautions including mandatory masking.

    They’re still being very cautious last time I went to the base, visitor check ins and no extra people at the commissary etc…they’ve been requiring masks for ages.

  111. Ken,

    I hope someone else has already address the fact that this is pretty inaccurate way to interpret this by go.

    Masks were proven quite affective in reducing the spread in the past related to similar diseases and I believe there is nejm article you can read in it. I for one hope people keep their masks in the future and wear them when they have a cold or flu and we can reduce transmission of those as well!

  112. Lea:
    Ken,

    I hope someone else has already address the fact that this is pretty inaccurate way to interpret this by go.

    Masks were proven quite affective in reducing the spread in the past related to similar diseases and I believe there is nejm article you can read in it. I for one hope people keep their masks in the future and wear them when they have a cold or flu and we can reduce transmission of those as well!

    Lea, have you studied the research conducted by the US Navy and Health Departments during the real pandemic of 1918?

    “But was it contagious? At the time, health officials believed that a microorganism called Pfeiffer’s bacillus caused the Spanish flu, and they were very interested in understanding how the organism could spread so quickly—and so randomly. To answer that question, doctors from the U.S. Public Health Service tried to infect one hundred healthy volunteers between the ages of eighteen and twenty-five by collecting mucous secretions from the noses, throats and upper respiratory tracts of those who were sick. The doctors then transferred these secretions to the noses, mouths and lungs of the volunteers, but not one of them succumbed. Even when blood from sick donors was injected into the blood of the volunteers, they remained stubbornly healthy.

    Finally, the doctors instructed those af­flicted with the flu to breathe and cough over the healthy volunteers, but none became sick. Researchers even tried to infect healthy horses with the mucous secretions of horses with the flu—yes, many animals became ill during the pandemic—but the results were the same. The Spanish flu was not contagious,21,22 and physi­cians could attach no blame to the accused bacterium nor provide an explanation for its global reach.“

    https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/is-coronavirus-contagious/

  113. Ken,

    As often mentioned on TWW, masks are required on US military installations, indoors and out.

    If this is all fake news, and the medical industry is controlling our lives, then our troops must be in on the big conspiracy. Otherwise they would be freeing themselves and us, right?

  114. Ken,

    Ooooooh, Jon Rappoport!!!! Isn’t he a favorite guest on the “Coast to Coast” radio program????
    That speaks volumes!!!!

  115. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,

    You are correct. If I was diagnosed with Stage IV cancer and given 3-6 months to live, then was killed in a MVA that day, the cause of death would NOT be “cancer” but something akin to “massive trauma and internal bleeding due to a motor vehicle accident.” One could argue that a person would not have died from COVID-19 if they didn’t have other comorbidities, but the stronger case is they would still be living if they didn’t come down with COVID-19.

  116. SiiteSeer: It almost seems like the underlying message of a lot of those kind of posts is that only younger people with perfect health really have a right to live.

    A nod to the Holocaust. Filtering out the “unfit”.

  117. readingalong: I have heard and read of some colleges that are testing wastewater from the dorms, so when they see the virus in the wastewater, they then test all that dorm’s occupants, which seems a pretty cool way to target testing.

    That’s the University of Arizona. They tested wastewater, found COVID-19 in it, locked down the dorm the sample came from, tested 311 people and found two asymptomatic people who were put in quarantine.

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/university-arizona-stops-covid-19-outbreak-following-feces-180975684/

    I am completely impressed with this detective work!

  118. Lea: I for one hope people keep their masks in the future and wear them when they have a cold or flu and we can reduce transmission of those as well!

    Indeed!

    “While the impact of flu varies, it places a substantial burden on the health of people in the United States each year. CDC estimates that influenza has resulted in between 9 million – 45 million illnesses, between 140,000 – 810,000 hospitalizations and between 12,000 – 61,000 deaths annually since 2010.”

    https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html#:~:text=While%20the%20impact%20of%20flu,61%2C000%20deaths%20annually%20since%202010.

  119. ishy: Liberty has announced they will allow an “independent” investigation (I’ll believe it when I see it).

    If LU is paying for it, it won’t be truly “independent.”

  120. Lea: Masks were proven quite effective in reducing the spread in the past related to similar diseases

    Medical professionals have been wearing masks for over 100 years.

  121. SiiteSeer: I’m seriously beginning to think that the current situation looks like 2Thes 2, fulfilled.

    Well, the “man of lawlessness” is certainly being revealed in America.

  122. Thanks to all for the prayers.
    I talked to my niece a short time ago. She feels fairly good – headache and a low-grade fever. But she plans to stay holed up for the quarantine period. She doesn’t want to risk infecting anyone else.
    She’s almost certain she caught the virus at work. One of her co-workers tested positive,too.

  123. Ken F (aka Tweed): It would be great if there was a way to test the theological sewage coming out of a church without having to step inside to experience it. It would help with finding a new church.

    Sit in your car on the parking lot to see if members are primarily carrying ESV Bibles … a red flag that there are New Calvinists hanging out there. Additionally, a preponderance of flannel shirts, facial hair, and skinny jeans are giveaways. Definitely avoid places where you see t-shirts with “Calvin is My Homeboy”, “Piper is The Man”, etc.

  124. Ken F (aka Tweed): It would be great if there was a way to test the theological sewage coming out of a church without having to step inside to experience it. It would help with finding a new church.

    Listening to sermon podcasts is a good way to screen churches for theological leaning. Most churches have websites with sermon posts these days.

  125. Ken F (aka Tweed): It would be great if there was a way to test the theological sewage coming out of a church without having to step inside to experience it. It would help with finding a new church. But I digress.

    It’s usually pretty clear on their websites. I find there’s usually two key pages, their staff page and their “What We Believe” page, but sometimes, it’ plastered all over. The staff page is a key indicator on whether they have elders and if they allow women to do anything more than be secretaries. If it’s a really tiny church, that might not be an indicator, but it’s a pretty good indicator of the big ones that it’s evangelical. A traditional evangelical church will have a stock “What We Believe”, but the New Cals or some of the very strict evangelical churches tend to go way overboard on championing their beliefs, so you can get a good idea of where they stand. Some of them post their covenant right on the site. RUN!

    I’ve noticed with mainline churches, if there is no explanation of what visitors should expect, they may not be welcoming to visitors.

  126. Ken F (aka Tweed): a way to test the theological sewage coming out of a church

    Be sure to check the pastor’s Twitter page if he has one … those are typically revealing on theological persuasion, especially what ministers/ministries they follow. Beware of those who retweet “Piper Points”, “Mohler Moments”, “Dever Drivel”, “Mahaney Malarkey”, etc.

  127. ishy: I’ve noticed with mainline churches, if there is no explanation of what visitors should expect, they may not be welcoming to visitors.

    Will you please say more? How do you think a church should tell newcomers what to expect?

    Mainline churches generally don’t force their beliefs and customs on people, so they might not go out of their way to stipulate Bible versions, creeds, and so on.

    Our church has a pretty big website with a short “What To Expect” video describing weekend services, with photos. It covers the topic well but does not guarantee a welcoming experience. That really has to come from the congregation, with the help of good leadership and local custom maybe?

    I checked a website for a church affiliated with Capitol Hill Baptist, and it was a sea of fluttering red flags. Two versions of the church covenant: with and without Scripture. Yikes!

  128. ishy: Liberty has announced they will allow an “independent” investigation

    I’ve read that Jerry Fallwell Jr has resigned to spend more time watching his family.

    /s

  129. ishy: I’ve noticed with mainline churches, if there is no explanation of what visitors should expect, they may not be welcoming to visitors.

    The Lutheran Church in my locale is welcoming to all.
    Lutheranism evolved differently than what you’re accustomed to (no offense, I take it you live below the Mason-Dixon line).
    In Lutheranism, liturgy is everything, and that’s what its adherents are there for; that and the social life to be had.

  130. SiiteSeer: It almost seems like the underlying message of a lot of those kind of posts is that only younger people with perfect health really have a right to live.

    “LIFE TO THE FIT, EXTINCTION TO THE UNFIT!”
    — Eugenics Movement slogan, early 20th Century

    (And then a cult leader in Central Europe with a funny little mustache and an “Elder Board” of pulp villains took that slogan at face value and carried it out.)

  131. Friend: Our church has a pretty big website with a short “What To Expect” video describing weekend services, with photos. It covers the topic well but does not guarantee a welcoming experience.

    I just mean if it doesn’t have one at all, they probably don’t care much about visitors. I visited maybe 40 churches where I used to live and about 15 here (much smaller city) and I just found that to correlate, but it is my own experience. And there were definitely some that had a page on what to expect that were not welcoming.

    It’s really helpful to know if there is a dress code, etc. I could wish that nobody cares what you are wearing, but some mainline churches definitely still do.

  132. ishy,

    I actually saw a few New Cal sites that were similar. Normally, the New Cals are a lot more subtle in outside presentation to bait converts, but there’s a few that really want everyone who looks at their website to know how superior they are to everyone else and how you will never be them. Or they will THEOLOGY you to death.

  133. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): I’m not going to bet my literal life on the words of someone who has repeatedly been proven to be a liar.

    My brother in law in New Jersey came down with covid in March. Both him and my sister in law recovered but he still has recurring symptoms. Covid has left some otherwise healthy people with lasting effects (heart, brain etc) that could cause issues when they’re older.

    This virus is real.

    As for our vulnerable populations, as the virus goes through them, the cost to society escalates. But never mind the financial burden, do we really want to condemn people to choking to death on a ventilator?

    Real choice involves managing your condition, not having that choice removed by dough heads who won’t stay home or take precautions.

  134. Ken: “This week the CDC quietly updated the Covid number to admit that only 6% of all the 153,504 deaths recorded actually died from Covid

    That’s 9,210 deaths

    I want to highlight a point that might have not have registered. Even if “only” 9,210 people died of covid-19, that is still over three times the number who perished on 9/11. That is still a tragedy.

  135. Friend: I want to highlight a point that might have not have registered. Even if “only” 9,210 people died of covid-19, that is still over three times the number who perished on 9/11. That is still a tragedy.

    I’m also not sure I trust the CDC anymore, since they came out with their new guidelines to decrease testing. And I’m not sure how the CDC could be so certain of those numbers because most were not patients they themselves treated. And how is a death by covid defined? If you die from suffocation due to pneumonia caused by covid, is that not counted?

    I feel like such moves hint there’s something larger going on than public health…

  136. ishy: I feel like such moves hint there’s something larger going on than public health…

    Yes, that’s a concern always.

    The basic medical data comes from myriad sources, starting with everyone who cares for a patient. Every day I check my state health department data, some medical school findings, and specific news sites. The information is consistent. It also matches what I hear from my medical providers, and from people I know around the country.

    So the information itself is sound. The US has about 4.25% of the world’s population, but almost a quarter of the world’s cases.

    One great source is the Johns Hopkins University website. Here’s a link to the world map on their dashboard:

    https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html

  137. ishy,

    Here’s a link to the Hopkins page about states’ testing. A state is probably doing enough testing if the percent of positive cases is below 5%:

    “If a positivity rate is too high, that may indicate that the state is only testing the sickest patients who seek medical attention, and is not casting a wide enough net to know how much of the virus is spreading within its communities. A low rate of positivity in testing data can be seen as a sign that a state has sufficient testing capacity for the size of their outbreak and is testing enough of its population to make informed decisions about reopening.”

    https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/testing/testing-positivity

  138. Ken: See my delayed post (since I’m in perpetual moderation)

    1. No you’re not.
    2. Don’t talk about moderation or you will be moderated.

    GBTC

  139. SiiteSeer: ust recently I’ve had extended conversations with 2 people who I thought were committed, level-headed Christians, who have bought into conspiracy theories. I’m confounded, I don’t even know what to say to them anymore.

    Give them grace.

    I mean, feel free to curiously question what they are buying in to and why they are buying in to it. But, as someone who inexplicably found myself in a couple cult-like church situations, it’s a lot easier to fall into these types of situations than I think most people would like to acknowledge. Entire countries do it (Nazi Germany, Pol Pot’s Cambodia, etc.).

    I am dealing with this also with some close family members. It is disheartening. But getting frustrated (not saying you are, just knowing that’s usually my first response) only makes them dig in their heels more and reinforce the “I have special knowledge that others just don’t understand” thinking. Which is exactly what you probably DON’T want long term.

  140. ishy: Or they will THEOLOGY you to death.

    ” The sages have a hundred maps to give
    That trace their crawling cosmos like a tree,
    They rattle reason out through many a sieve
    That stores the sand and lets the gold go free:
    And all these things are less than dust to me
    Because my name is Lazarus and I live.”
    — G.K.Chesterton, “The Convert”

  141. We need to be cautious not to misinterpret the cdc numbers. Saying only 6% had no comorbidities does not mean that only 6% actually died of covid19. If you have well managed diabetes and would not have died had you not contracted covid19, you died of covid19. But your death certificate will list diabetes as a comorbidity.

    You can take it to the bank that at LEAST 180,000+ have died in the US from covid19. Maybe more, since we have an unexplained uptick in deaths from the number that would have been expected.

    John MacArthur is busy spreading the misreading of the data to try and show no pandemic. He says none of his church have caught it, and no one has been hospitalized with it from GCC. I hope that is true.

    However, it is not true where I live. We have double digit daily rises in case county in our rural county and have had at least 3 deaths. I say at least, because the over 75 crowd is dying at a much higher rate of “at home natural cause but cause unknown” deaths. We are in an area with many Pentecostals who do not seek medical care AT ALL for anything, and that seems to me to be who is getting hit.

    There is a pandemic. It is deadly. Can’t force anyone else to take every possible precaution but sure as shootin going to take them myself, and avoid folks who don’t.

    I’ve been told avoiding the careless is nothing less than “mask shaming” or “covid bullying” or even “anabaptist shunning” but so be it.

    I do not want to die because of someone else’s poor choices or political leanings or ideology.

  142. Friend: “If a positivity rate is too high, that may indicate that the state is only testing the sickest patients who seek medical attention, and is not casting a wide enough net to know how much of the virus is spreading within its communities. A low rate of positivity in testing data can be seen as a sign that a state has sufficient testing capacity for the size of their outbreak and is testing enough of its population to make informed decisions about reopening.”

    “If we don’t test, we won’t have as many cases.”

  143. GuyBehindtheCurtain: Ken: See my delayed post (since I’m in perpetual moderation)

    1. No you’re not.
    2. Don’t talk about moderation or you will be moderated.

    Moderation or PERSECUTION(TM)?????
    Guy sounds more like a COVID Truther with each comment.
    How long before the QAnon buzzwords/recognition code words start showing up?

  144. Friend: recent excess deaths

    Your comment brought to mind the puzzling thought that in recent decades US public has become quite sensitive to the issue of “rate of combat casualties in war zones”. Vietnam-era casualty rates are now completely unacceptable.

    But the current excess deaths due to the pandemic are orders of magnitude higher, on a per-year and per unit population basis, than the Vietnam era casualties.

    The mentality behind the relative tranquility about current excess deaths compared with what I interpet to be the anxiety the public felt in the late ’60s and early ’70s about the prospect of death in battle in Vietnam. There were mass anti-war protests at the time. Not much, today, in terms of mass public protests of present government policy.

    Maybe I’m thinking wrong about the comparison.

  145. Ken: The Spanish flu was not contagious

    Dude. I’m not engaging with this.

    There is real science on the 1918 flu, but I don’t have time to do a lit search right now. The NEJM article was about research conducted in the last 10 years and is peer reviewed. Do you have ANY idea how far science has advance since 1918? Look into the history of medicine, seriously.

    Actually for that matter, there is a fantastic book about the 1918 flu call the great influenza that has a quick 100 page recap of the history of infectious disease medicine at the beginning. We are MILES further than we were 100 years ago and weston price is a crock org. Come on.

  146. Ken: pandemic of 1918

    Interesting that you should try to undermine today’s covid-19 research via a quack website discussing the flu epidemic of 1918.

    My aunt died in the 1918 pandemic. “Influenza” is right there on her death certificate.

    Yes, it was a long time ago, but I would have liked to know that aunt. Her death at age 3 years devastated the family. My grandparents had more children after she died, and those children were raised by damaged, traumatized parents. The harm rippled across my generation as well.

    So this is very personal for me. I take the covid-19 pandemic very seriously in part because I know how the death of one little child can mar a family.

    The least we can do is learn from the millions of 1918 flu deaths worldwide.

  147. ishy: It’s really helpful to know if there is a dress code, etc. I could wish that nobody cares what you are wearing, but some mainline churches definitely still do.

    Man the idea of seeing a dress code on a church website is just odd to me. I think it’s only the super ‘you can totally wear jeans, we’re hip and cool and welcome to all ‘churches that do that? I think the default is dress up a bit for church.

    Although now i’m curious about what my church has listed. We’re a mainline. But we have greeters.

    I don’t really want to talk to anyone or get a hard sell on my first , second, third visit to a church mostly though so maybe i’m biased.

  148. Jack: Covid has left some otherwise healthy people with lasting effects (heart, brain etc) that could cause issues when they’re older.

    I think this is my concern with the people waiving it. Just because someone didn’t die doesn’t mean this thing is safe. We hope some of those symptoms will go away with time, but we don’t *know*.

  149. Ken,

    And I am a scientist, and both the National Svience Foundation and The National Institutes of Health have asked me to be on review panels that are reviewing new detection technology. And I am saying it is NOT a scam.

    I have friends that have had COVID, and they have lasting lung damage.

  150. Lea: I think the default is dress up a bit for church.

    That may be true in certain areas, but I visited churches out here in the country and they would very from ties and jackets for men and full skirt suits and hats for women to jeans and tshirts and work boots. Some had both and were fine with that. It also didn’t seem to have anything to do with denomination or size of the church. I think the culture inside the church just developed in a certain way. It’s an interesting cultural tendency, anyway.

  151. Friend: I want to highlight a point that might have not have registered. Even if “only” 9,210 people died of covid-19, that is still over three times the number who perished on 9/11.

    Friend, those numbers are absolutely not that low, though, as i’m sure you know. Most people have comorbidities it’s super common. Sometimes those lists are just the things caused by the disease that actually killed you. Also, if you have, say, HIV, you might die of pneumonia, but why did you die? These people are making a conspiracy theory out of perfectly normal medical stuff they don’t understand.

    On 1918, my grandmother was named after a family member who died in that epidemic as well.

  152. Jeffrey Chalmers,

    I normally try to not “feed trolls” , but I will not let comments that COVID 19 is faked/exaggerated go by without a couple of comments. i know physicians that are treating COVID, and as I mentioned above, a good friend was sick for 10 weeks, and is still on oxygen. I am reading the scientific literature on COVID, and considering potentially trying to develop our own test based on technology developed in my lab…
    With the scientific/epidemiological world, the concept that a common virus infecting humans acquires animal genetic material to make a new type of virus much more dangerous in not anew concept. I heard about it years ago..

  153. Lea: those numbers are absolutely not that low, though, as i’m sure you know. Most people have comorbidities

    Death certificates have had main causes and contributing factors for a very long time. Analysis of these will be key.

    It will take years to figure out exactly what happened in this pandemic, and how to plan for long-term effects. With less driving and employment, probably the rate of accidental deaths went down in the spring. People died at home because they could not go to the ER or were afraid to. Children are behind on inoculations. Adults are skipping checkups. Few are seeing dentists. Depression is sky high. People are drinking more. Old people and minorities are dying at unusual rates. Our nation is lurching through transformation. We will recover but will never be the same as in the Before Times.

  154. Friend,

    The 1918 Spanish flue pandemic was real, and it WAS contagious. This should even be in question…
    But then again, the idea that the earth is only 6-10,000 years old is held to be absolute TRUTH by many, despite what sound Physics says… sigh….

  155. Samuel Conner: the relative tranquility about current excess deaths compared with what I interpet to be the anxiety the public felt in the late ’60s and early ’70s about the prospect of death in battle in Vietnam

    Agreed, the denials are ominous and baffling. Remember the Tylenol poisonings? A total of seven people died, and those deaths led to the secure packaging we see today on so many medicines and foods. How did we get so indifferent to the untimely deaths of Joe and Mary Lunchbox?

  156. Friend,

    Because the COVID-19 pandemic became “political”.
    Typical “reason” goes “out the door” when religion and politics mixing into the “issue at hand”….

  157. Jeffrey Chalmers: I normally try to not “feed trolls” , but I will not let comments that COVID 19 is faked/exaggerated go by without a couple of comments.

    I remember some months back we were told by a highly placed person who shall remain un-named that it was a ‘hoax’.

  158. Jeffrey Chalmers: Because the COVID-19 pandemic became “political”.
    Typical “reason” goes “out the door” when religion and politics mixing into the “issue at hand”….

    Agreed.

    I don’t normally comment on some of these kinds of things because I feel like I’m beating my head against a brick wall and I’m (for any number of reasons) not very good at debating.

    COVID-19 is occurring at a time in history when almost everyone and their dog (sorry, dee, no offence to the pugs intended) has access to the internet, and those who were previously on the fringe of the internet have started to become “mainstream” (and not just on the internet).

    There are folks who are working as diligently as possible to debunk all the misinformation and disinformation put out by those who were previously on the fringe of the internet.

    When (general) you add in #MeToo, #ChruchToo, Black Lives Matter, etc., (general) you have a veritable tinderbox of issues to start a flame-war, troll-baiting, etc..

  159. Jeffrey Chalmers,

    THere’s no doubt that the pandemic has become highly politicized in US, but that doesn’t, to my mind, explain why the entire population seems so tranquil. Yes, part of the population appears to approve of present pandemic response policies, but the other part does not.

    There are significant in-person protests over unnecessary deaths at the hands of law enforcement. But very little over unnecessary deaths in the pandemic due to misgovernance. It’s almost as if we have come to a place where our expectations of wise governance are so low that we aren’t shocked, or even that upset, when unwise governance leads to large numbers of avoidable deaths.

    Perhaps there are better explanations

  160. Jeffrey J Chalmers: The 1918 Spanish flue pandemic was real, and it WAS contagious.

    If there weren’t a crazy article to back him up with this particular theory I would assume he was just making up crazy things to get a response but he may be reading nonsense and actually believing it…

    I can’t believe people are arguing that the flu wasn’t the flu or wasn’t contagious or whatever he’s trying to say.

  161. Lea: I can’t believe people are arguing that the flu wasn’t the flu or wasn’t contagious or whatever he’s trying to say.

    He’s pointing to a site that opposes soy.

    Soy.

  162. Samuel Conner,

    I have read that young adults will suffer the greatest long-term psychic damage from the pandemic. In the best of times they are navigating an uncertain journey to autonomy. Now every institution is failing them: high school, college, entry-level jobs, parents’ financial security… They don’t know what to trust anymore, and they lack the life experience to know that big problems eventually get resolved.

  163. researcher: time in history when almost everyone and their dog

    In my neck of the woods, we say “everybody and all of their brothers”.

  164. Friend: Children are behind on inoculations. Adults are skipping checkups.

    We are creeping closer and closer to flu season. I have been wondering what will happen when countless people either can’t or won’t get their flu shots ………. and what will happen if some people contract the flu and COVID-19 at the same time.

  165. Muff Potter: I remember some months back we were told by a highly placed person who shall remain un-named that it was a ‘hoax’.

    My parents believed COVID-19 was a hoax. Now my niece, their granddaughter has it. They don’t believe it’s a hoax anymore.

    Niece is doing well, btw. Her symptoms are still mild ….. headache, low-grade fever, just a very slight ( and I do mean slight….only when she’s physically active) problem with breathing . Her biggest problem is cabin-fever, and her foremost concern is not transferring COVID to anyone else. And, like I said, she’s physically fit, strong, and spirited. Today is day 3 for her – I think she’s going to come out of this just fine.

  166. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): My parents believed COVID-19 was a hoax.

    And there has been plenty of documentation of people who thought it was a hoax, or overblown, who have died from COVID or lost loved ones and changed their minds, albeit too late.

  167. Friend: And pro animal fat. But anti soy.

    I am so confused by this conversation. I’m not sure I want to understand it, though…

  168. Nancy2(aka Kevlar),

    I have horror stories of people, basically saying the experiences of doctors I know implying they were incompetent so they can maintain their politically derived opinion of COVID-19…
    It reminds me of when I try to explain the physics behind a old earth to a young earthier ( note, I am not saying biology), within a few exchanges, the discuss becomes a personal attack… on me… I have NEVER meet someone that can hold a purely scientific debate and maintain a young earth position….. Either they say something really stupid with respect to science, or it becomes personal…

    … just like “the doctors must be incompetent” since 45 says there is pkently of tests…

  169. Samuel Conner,

    Your link led me to a further link. This is bleak:

    “Mental Health, Substance Use, and Suicidal Ideation During the COVID-19 Pandemic — United States, June 24–30, 2020”

    Overall, 40.9% of 5,470 respondents who completed surveys during June reported an adverse mental or behavioral health condition, including those who reported symptoms of anxiety disorder or depressive disorder (30.9%), those with TSRD symptoms related to COVID-19 (26.3%), those who reported having started or increased substance use to cope with stress or emotions related to COVID-19 (13.3%), and those who reported having seriously considered suicide in the preceding 30 days (10.7%) (Table 1). At least one adverse mental or behavioral health symptom was reported by more than one half of respondents who were aged 18–24 years (74.9%) and 25–44 years (51.9%), of Hispanic ethnicity (52.1%), and who held less than a high school diploma (66.2%), as well as those who were essential workers (54.0%), unpaid caregivers for adults (66.6%), and who reported treatment for diagnosed anxiety (72.7%), depression (68.8%), or PTSD (88.0%) at the time of the survey.

    https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6932a1.htm#suggestedcitation

  170. Friend: Death certificates have had main causes and contributing factors for a very long time

    I should have died in an automobile accident in 1982 …….. severe head trauma. I have a hole about the size of a half-dollar on the left side of my skull and scar tissue on my brain. I had a stroke in that area of my brain in 2009, when I was bedridden with a horrendous case of mono. If I come down with bad case of COVID-19 and die, odds are that my death certificate will say “hemorrhagic stroke”.

  171. The flu shot is a conundrum. We are in shelter in place at our home by our own choice. We are very careful to wipe down the few packages we get, or grocery deliveries (every 3 months or so we shop and get it curbside delivery), and very careful not to touch our faces when dealing with the mail until we put the mail in its own quarantine spot and wash our hands thoroughly.

    Not due checkups until Dec or Jan, but plan to defer what we can defer easily and see if we can get a virtual med visit to renew a couple of prescriptions. Or order them from an online teledoc and pharmacy if we absolutely must.

    We don’t plan to get the covid vaccine unless it has been through the trials or unless it is released early and had time to prove safe and effective. DH had polio, we remember the warp speed messed up polio vaccines, and can continue to be patient Lord willing.

    So not much chance to get the flu except getting out to get the shot, where we might get covid. Think the flu shot will wait too until it is safer to get out.

  172. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): In my neck of the woods, we say “everybody and all of their brothers”.

    Thank you for telling my the saying for your neck of the woods. I was struggling with what to write and wrote the first thing popped into my mind and I didn’t want to sound insulting.

    After reading your comment here, I read through the other comments that had been posted after your comment, the last comment posted at the time made by Friend replying to you: “I’m thankful that you are here and so vibrant!”

    Not to minimize ANYONE’S experience at this awful time in history….

    I think of your recently-COVID-19-diagnosed niece, of the very many people in the world who have been affected: In some way by the pandemic; By various kinds of civil unrest; By the many seeds of distrust that have been sown (in any number of ways, for any number of reasons)….

    No insult or offence intended to anyone….sometimes I wish I could turn a blind eye to it all, but me being me, I can’t. Very big sigh.

  173. Friend: That’s exactly what “they” want.

    Ah, so to put it in other terms, it’s like the New Cals when they talk about election? They know they are elect and know who else is elect, but only God know who is elect. You know, I just “can’t” understand…?

  174. linda: Think the flu shot will wait too until it is safer to get out.

    I don’t know the covid trend where you live, but you probably have plenty of time to wait out any spikes. The CDC recommends having the flu shot by the end of October. Local news outlets also usually say when the flu is showing up.

    https://www.cdc.gov/flu/prevent/keyfacts.htm

  175. Friend: I don’t know the covid trend where you live, but you probably have plenty of time to wait out any spikes. The CDC recommends having the flu shot by the end of October. Local news outlets also usually say when the flu is showing up.

    Although Flu usually peaks where I live in Dec./Jan. and later, I remember the year that it hit the schools 1st week in October (H1N!) and spread like wildfire, so we now aim for mid-September vaccine to be ready for October just in case!

  176. researcher: I think of your recently-COVID-19-diagnosed niece, of the very many people in the world who have been affected: In some way by the pandemic; By various kinds of civil unrest; By the many seeds of distrust that have been sown (in any number of ways, for any number of reasons)….

    I live on a farm in rural Kentucky ~~~ county population: 11,000; @~~~ county seat: population 3,000. Proportionally, my county has been very lucky as far as COVID goes. We haven’t been hit that hard.

    As far as civil unrest goes ….. there hasn’t really been any here. There has been a BLM march in our county seat and some marches in neighboring counties. But, the marches have been very peaceful and respectful……no opposition, no violence, no destruction. I have gone to neighboring towns/cities, and the very diverse Ft. Campbell military base, and have I seen no aggression. If there are any problems in the Pennyroyal area of Kentucky (or Montgomery Co., Tennessee where my daughter lives, I have not seen it on display.

    I was raised in what was an all-white rural area. I still live here. But through family interracial marriage, my experiences as a former teacher and military spouse, I have friends of just about every “race”, ethnenticity, religion…. several countries and territories, etc…….. We are very different, but we have never allowed our differences to divide us. One of my daughter’s best friends was born and raised in Vietnam. I still feel very safe visiting two little towns on the Tennessee state line, where nearly 40% of the population is of African descent….. and some of that nearly 40% are my old friends, and my daughter’s old friends, from high school.
    I want things to stay this way.

    But……… I watch the news …. the videos …and it is terrifying. How can people behave this way???? I pray that it does not happen here. I want to always be able to sit at a table with my friends without seeing division among us ……. well, except for maybe some lively discussions over ethnic foods and how to prepare the dishes.

  177. ishy: I am so confused by this conversation. I’m not sure I want to understand it, though…

    Weston price has a history of weird pseudo science/cultish dietary advice

  178. linda,

    I usually get the flu shot at work but we’ve been working from home…I’m not sure if we’ll go back next month or it will be pushed back again.

  179. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): How can people behave this way????

    One cause: Wicked people post pictures online saying “Happening here now! Come out and help!” This occurred in Kenosha, before the clashes in which the 17-year-old shot three people. Facebook apologized for not taking down the notice of the “event.”

    The pictures are not even always of something going on in that place and time. A fabricated notice drew a bunch of armed people to Gettysburg on July 4 for a fabricated flag burning. Fortunately no one was injured. The notices attract heavily armed people of all persuasions.

    Inciting notices are not the whole problem, but are symptoms of how easily stirred up or even unstable people are right now. Would people have grabbed their hardware and jumped into their vehicles after reading such notices ten or fifteen years ago? I don’t think so.

  180. Nancy2(aka Kevlar),

    First, my apologies if what I write sounds “mysterious” or minimizing of you or anyone else. I need to be careful of what I write, as I need to remain anonymous without being anonymous, if that makes any sense.

    I so enjoyed reading your descriptions, as, indeed, I do many commenters. There are many times I wish I could just be me.

    ….county population: 11,000; @~~~ county seat: population 3,000. Proportionally, my county has been very lucky as far as COVID goes. We haven’t been hit that hard.

    My immediate city (population about 100,000) has not been hit that hard, but my heart breaks every time I read about what’s going on everywhere else in the world.

    As far as civil unrest goes ….. there hasn’t really been any here…..

    There has been very little civil unrest in my city, although I have read about protests around me that have ranged from peaceful to violent and / or destructive. And even the protests around me are much milder than elsewhere in the world.

    ….But through family interracial marriage, my experiences as a former teacher and military spouse, I have friends of just about every “race”, ethnenticity, religion…. several countries and territories, etc……..

    Between my growing up years, my “marriage”, and a plethora of different work experiences, I have met people from all over the world, including those in the military.

    In recent times, I have become aware how naive I have been in some ways. While I have been aware of many things, when the pandemic broke out and all the protests started, I became truly appalled. I did not know some of the issues even existed, nor that some of the behaviours were possible.

    I have spent some time in self-reflection, afraid that somehow, somewhere in my past I have unintentionally hurt someone.

    ….and it is terrifying. How can people behave this way???? I pray that it does not happen here….

    I keep thinking something similar….and similar thoughts occur to me whenever I read of other instances of violence, corruption, abuse, etc.

  181. Friend: Inciting notices are not the whole problem, but are symptoms of how easily stirred up or even unstable people are right now….

    And the isolation (in any number of ways, for any number of reasons) only compounds the problem….

  182. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): How can people behave this way????

    Comrade,
    It has come to our attention that you are unaware that these recent events have been largely peaceful. You will be pleased to know that we have enrolled you in an exclusive all expenses paid camp to help you broaden your perspective. Please bring comfortable working clothes.
    — The Party

  183. researcher: the protests around me are much milder than elsewhere in the world.

    I’ve worked in two big cities that have frequent demonstrations. Usually these things are buoyant and even festive. Rarely do organizers set out to create a toxic atmosphere. Once in awhile, a crowd turns ugly, or violent opportunists create mayhem. Once in awhile the authorities provoke a reaction from a crowd that’s just being really rude.

    It might be counter intuitive, but crowds tend to be calmer when the police are not heavily geared up. Of course, at times all that gear is needed.

    What an exhausting year.

  184. Friend:….Rarely do organizers set out to create a toxic atmosphere. Once in awhile, a crowd turns ugly, or violent opportunists create mayhem. Once in awhile the authorities provoke a reaction from a crowd that’s just being really rude.

    It might be counter intuitive, but crowds tend to be calmer when the police are not heavily geared up. Of course, at times all that gear is needed.

    What an exhausting year.

    Totally agree. 🙂 🙂

    Your words explain so concisely what I read, and what I very rarely have the ability to watch, especially without triggering.

    The first time I saw a tiny fraction of the George Floyd video clip, it triggered me.

    It’s oftentimes difficult to turn my head away from the TV screen fast enough….

  185. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): But……… I watch the news …. the videos …and it is terrifying. How can people behave this way????

    Outside agitators, miscreants, and assorted criminals.

    They are what they are.

    It is what it is.

    It really is a damn shame though, that the truly peaceful demonstrators acting in the spirit of Dr. King get lumped in with the garbage.

  186. researcher: It’s oftentimes difficult to turn my head away

    I hear you. We all want to be well informed, but there’s wave after wave of difficult news every day. Do you have any strategies to cope?

    My approach is to read the news, avoiding inflammatory coverage. TV news is too stimulating right now, so I limit it.

  187. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): I have been wondering what will happen when countless people either can’t or won’t get their flu shots

    A double-pandemic? Oh, and don’t forget that there are several strains of influenza with pandemic potential lurking in pigs and poultry. Keep your masks handy!

  188. Friend: I hear you. We all want to be well informed, but there’s wave after wave of difficult news every day. Do you have any strategies to cope?

    My approach is to read the news, avoiding inflammatory coverage. TV news is too stimulating right now, so I limit it.

    I am replying to your comment in a somewhat reverse order, as it might help explain some idiosyncrasies in my style of writing. And my apologies for “talking” so much about me.

    I am high-functioning Asperger’s, and I think in pictures, although the vast majority of the world would not be aware I am ASD.

    I am aware there are other ASD Wartburgers, to whom I am praying I do not unintentionally cause any hurt or pain with my explanation(s) here.

    For many reasons, I am also severely affected by complex PTSD.

    While I live alone, that is not the reason for my isolation. The pandemic pretty much stopped the very few forays I made for those things I cannot purchase online, and I have had to become inventive in making things work for me, while still remaining safe.

    I have been training myself to wear a mask, as I firmly believe in wearing them.

    I have always read voraciously, which also happens to be (for me) a coping mechanism. I read things from all over the world, both secular and non-secular, both fiction and non-fiction. I limit my actual (TV and non-TV) news to whatever I can cope with for the day.

    One of my great joys in reading TWW is the wide variety of topics discussed, and the uniqueness and compassion of the folks I find here (commenters, Dee, GBTC, and now Todd Wilhelm).

    Reading TWW is part of my daily Church, and commenting here has become my community.

    It takes me a very long time to write my comments, as I struggle with trying to find the words to express myself without unintentionally causing anyone any hurt or pain.

    I don’t write any of this as a pity-party, but rather as an explanation for why I write as I do.

    My apologies again, Friend, for writing such a round-about and lengthy reply. I just wanted to explain how and why TWW is one of my coping strategies. 🙂

  189. researcher: Reading TWW is part of my daily Church, and commenting here has become my community.

    I hope Dee sees this! What wonderful encouragement for us all.

    Truly I admire your tenacity. Your voice here adds much. I don’t see anything that you would need to apologize for. Many of us keep our anonymity on TWW. I think a good few of us have PTSD, depression, or anxiety as a result of earlier abuse.

    Although you live alone, you are genuinely not alone in having to improvise during the pandemic. After I stayed home for weeks, it was positively weird to go out. I’m more used to it now, but still feel a bit drained when I get home. After a medical visit, I immediately shower and put on clean clothes. It doesn’t hurt, it might help, and it dispels some anxiety.

  190. researcher: Reading TWW is part of my daily Church, and commenting here has become my community.

    TWW is more Church than most churches! Welcome to our community, researcher. Thanks for your great comments!

  191. Friend: Many of us keep our anonymity on TWW. I think a good few of us have PTSD, depression, or anxiety as a result of earlier abuse.

    That was the main reason I was so reluctant to write what I wrote. To me, there are a lot of people with life way worse than me.

    Although you live alone, you are genuinely not alone in having to improvise during the pandemic. After I stayed home for weeks, it was positively weird to go out. I’m more used to it now, but still feel a bit drained when I get home. After a medical visit, I immediately shower and put on clean clothes. It doesn’t hurt, it might help, and it dispels some anxiety.

    What you write is encouraging, hopefully for others, not just me.

    Perhaps your suggestion for what you do after a medical visit will provide others with inspiration on ways to cope….

  192. Ken,

    It strikes me as not sensible to run a “covid 19” test (whatever that actually means) (in January there were 40 – forty – covid 19’s, NOT counting mutations) and not run a covid 19 antibodies (plural) test at the same time. Not enough study has been done on the antibodies.

    This isn’t just a respiratory group of illnesses, I hear of it getting at people’s legs etc. Why so little official interest in symptoms?

    Incubation can vary and is sometimes more than 2 weeks.

    Antiviral medicines for viral illnesses at both acute and chronic stages, have long been wrongly rationed. An awful lot of people know an awful lot about viral illnesses, but the deniers have seized power.

    We did well to bring levels down by staying 6 ft apart. (We started 7 weeks too late.) In my country the government told people to stop staying 6 ft apart but I insist on continuing if I am allowed by anyone around me.

    Every business and group had safe plans for reopening by mid June and the government rubbished it all.

    The advertised “exemptions” re. masks may not really exist. It’s difficult to find masks big enough. I spotted a web site with adjustable ones and was sent a leaflet about ones with valves. Therefore experimentation is going to continue.

    Of late, if going out (having switched to having almost everything delivered) I found mask wearers were engaging in dangerous behaviour. Is there something about stifling their nose and mouth that makes them think they don’t exist and therefore neither do I? It affects their awareness of their movements, of space and of vision. If they want to wear one, good, but they should choose better ones and rethink their actions.

    As a single, I am effectively not allowed visitors. If I call myself “vulnerable” they will want to lock me up altogether, so I no longer mention any of my circumstances.

    I use my elbows or put variously a cloth or plastic bag over my hand, for rails, handles and buttons. I’ve thought it out and I’m considerate.

    Why do authorities in power want to dumb it all down? They claim it’s us that’s not taking it seriously but it’s not us, it’s them.

    The worst thing of all that’s new this time round is the over-centralisation (on top of the inefficiency and the bullying).

  193. Headless Unicorn Guy: Moderation or PERSECUTION(TM)?????
    Guy sounds more like a COVID Truther with each comment.
    How long before the QAnon buzzwords/recognition code words start showing up?

    Been quite busy to reply, but actually I’m surprised people here that are used to immediately seeing and calling out conflicts of interest or deception in leaders like Mahaney or Driscoll aren’t willing to see the massive deception or conflicts of interests with the CDC (a private for-profit company), or Fauci or Birx.

    https://fromthetrenchesworldreport.com/cdc-admits-covid-19-positive-result-just-means-youve-previously-contracted-the-common-cold/270529

    “A positive test result shows you may have antibodies from an infection with the virus that causes COVID-19. However, there is a chance a positive result means that you have antibodies from an infection with a virus from the same family of viruses (called coronaviruses), such as the one that causes the common cold. CDC”

    “Shockingly, according to Forbes, “$2.2 billion” went “to the Centers for Disease Control, which has been at the forefront of the U.S. response to the virus, but has come under criticism for errors that limited how many people can get tested for Covid-19.”

    These people are massively manipulating us. Using their figures, or NIH studies to prove our current situation or “crisis” is like using Mahaney’s book on humility to prove he’s a humble dude.

  194. Friend,

    That sounds about right.

    The antibodies tests are not (or were not) as good as the tests to see if you have Covid and I think we all know that already? This isn’t a conspiracy.

  195. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): In my neck of the woods, we say “everybody and all of their brothers”.

    The equivalent expression in Japanese is interesting. Here, they say literally, “even the cat and the ladle”.

    Isn’t human language something? 🙂

  196. Ken,

    Ken, in the event that there is a remote chance you (and the conspiracy theorists you follow) are right, please consider wearing a mask anyway. It’s not painful and might very well save your life and your loved ones – even from the regular flu!

  197. Serving Kids in Japan: “even the cat and the ladle”.

    Although used in different circumstances, what you wrote reminds me of the saying “Everything but the kitchen sink.”, a phrase I often used when I was using up leftovers from the ‘fridge, cupboard, etc. to make a big pot of soup. 🙂

    Isn’t human language something?

    🙂 which makes doing crossword puzzles so interesting…..

  198. Friend: I think they serve different purposes.

    Oh sure they do, that’s my point. Ken is conflating all the tests really and making weird conspiracies out of know facts. The ‘do i have covid’ tests were more accurate(sensitive/specific), at least initially, than the ‘do i have antibodies/ie did i previously have covid’.

  199. Lea,

    Sorry, that was clear in your comment. I was a little distracted at that moment, should have thought longer about my own words.

  200. Jeffrey Chalmers: And I am a scientist, and both the National Svience Foundation and The National Institutes of Health have asked me to be on review panels that are reviewing new detection technology. And I am saying it is NOT a scam.

    But that makes YOU part of The Vast Conspiracy of The Deep State. Automatically.

    “THE DWARFS ARE FOR THE DWARFS! WE WON’T BE TAKEN IN!”

  201. Friend – I’ve been purposefully not directing my questions or responding to your comments. The last time you responded to my concerns regarding health issues on this site many moons ago you told me to stuff it (I believe your words were ‘cease and desist’), and I don’t remember soliciting your opinion at the time either.

    None of us – no person, research facility, website, organization or group has the lock and key on truth. It’s rather convenient to disqualify quotes and commentary from the CDC just because it comes from a group you don’t affiliate with. Every fact checker site bends and cherry picks the truth to some degree. IF you aren’t aware of that, then you ought to be. The overwhelming majority of the people I’ve done business with across the country over the past thirty years are liars to some degree (getting much worse), so I probably have a better sense than most when it comes to discernment in that area.

    As lovers of Jesus, we need to be able to listen and discern truth even if it comes forth from a rock or a donkey. Wink wink 🙂

    Ps- the splurge in overall deaths this spring (around a quarter million) were most likely due to consequences of the unnecessary lock downs. And – both the PCR and anitbody tests are 100% unreliable to prove people were getting ill as **a result** of the covid virus. Are they getting ill? Absolutely, but not from a virus. Are their bodies producing a virus to detoxify cells from insult or injuries? Absolutely. I realize the allopathic approach to medicine insist I’m wrong – but I’ve spent hundreds of hours researching where this approach began and who funded it to know better. Universities are indoctrination camps just like seminaries are. Money, power and control still rule the world.

    Max – I know you care, but it’s beyond me why Christians insist the default position of love would be to wear a mask, especially when the science is so muddied. One of many sites like it:

    https://nofacemask.blogspot.com/2020/06/nomaskinfo-archive-index-page.html

    The psychology behind it is not muddied, but historically has been used by many governments and cults to entrap people. One of many explanations out there:

    https://youtu.be/3RVG8qNLdoY

    Two members of my immediate family have lost their jobs because they refused to submit and wear a mask.

    The movement to expose the fraud behind main stream science is gaining incredible traction across the world. Lawsuits, protests and gatherings are dramatically increasing. People are starting to take health into their own hands. Media is ignoring this. My hunch is that in the somewhat near future those in the medical and political positions that have pushed this narrative on the world may be in harms way. I hope not, but am afraid it might be.

    With that I bid adieu.

    Mr. Conspiracy Exposer 🙂

  202. Long ago I visited a remote rural area that was finally getting electricity.

    A lady objected to the new utility pole by the roadside near her house.

    She did what anyone would do with an unwanted tree. She tried to chop it down with an axe.

    To my knowledge, that area still has electricity.

  203. Ken: With that I bid adieu.

    Good riddance.

    “…bodies producing a virus to detoxify cells from insult or injuries…”? Yeah, let’s see that in a peer-reviewed publication.

    Good grief, who makes up this stuff?

  204. Serving Kids in Japan: “…bodies producing a virus to detoxify cells from insult or injuries…”? Yeah, let’s see that in a peer-reviewed publication.
    Good grief, who makes up this stuff?

    LOL. It’s amazing isn’t it?

    I’m definitely going to start getting my science on masks from ‘nomask.com’ not the new england journal of medicine! #IAMSMART

  205. Friend: thank you re the flu shot, but my county is in the middle of a bad spike right now. Local school has roughly 10% of students and staff in quarantine and is changing how the education is delivered. If the numbers I’ve been given are correct, almost half our very few icu beds are filled with covid19 patients. Health dept. changes daily what our percentages are, but in the last two weeks we have gone up by 60-80% weekly. Not good at all. Hospitalizations rising by about 20% a day, roughly.

    Not a good time to go out in public for any reason, being older and at risk.

    We have no county, state, or city mask mandate or social distancing mandate. Many stores, especially the big chains, do require them but folks frequently pull them below the chin.

    We figure not to go out in public until we must renew rx’s in Jan. and Feb, and not then if teledocs will do it unless our spike has ended. Just mild maintenance meds we’ve used for years and years.

    We are in one of those states in the red zone, getting much worse daily just as we are locally.

    We prepped for this and just plan to stay home and ride it out.

  206. linda: We prepped for this and just plan to stay home and ride it out.

    I’m not wanting in any way to sound trite when I write “Stay safe and Be well”. What you describe sounds truly awful.

  207. linda: We prepped for this and just plan to stay home and ride it out.

    Good for you! I’m sorry you are staying home for the duration, but many people don’t have the ability to do that. Every little bit helps. I hope you have all the emotional resources and reserves you need.

  208. Ken,

    I guess I am part of this grand conspiracy then! Maybe I am part of “deep state” we keep hearing about also? Boy, I wish it were as sinister/clandestine as they make sound! It might be kind of exciting!
    I really laugh when Ken said he spent “100 Hours researching it”! I have been a Professor for over 32 years in Biotechnology, I can not even estimate how many hours I have spent studying the growth of cells/viruses, etc. COVID is real, proper mask and mask wearing lower the amount of viruses present, and like most infectious disease, the amount you get exposed to is very related to how sick you get.
    Oh, and guess what, most metastatic cancer death is not from the actual cancer, but the complex complications that spreading, rapidly growing cancer has on the bottom. Several of my cancer docs that treat metastatic cancer specifically tell about this.
    Finally, as I stated before, I have been, and continue to on National Science Foundation and National Institutes if Health review panels looking into improved COVID testing. While there is significant room for improvement, Ken is all wrong about COVID testing…. but then again, I am part of the “Grand Conspiracy” so I guess I am just full of BS.

  209. Friend, Researcher, thank you. Listen to “Ain’t God Good” by Gold City and enjoy. We have a close knit neighborhood that truly takes care of each other and socializes, just from about 50 feet apart lol. Our pastor is in frequent contact with us and we can attend church online. We text, call, email, zoom, google meets, etc with folks from the Dakotas to NM and from Colorado to the east coast. We do miss and sure look forward to travelling again, especially with close kin 800 miles away. Extended family is in the area. We look forward to being in church again and to participating in the Sacraments again. Never thought I would miss browsing wallyworld but soooo look forward to the sights, colors, smells, etc of actual in store shopping. But we are in one of those 7 states Fauci is warning are getting in trouble. We have to be patient.

    But that said, yes, we are very blessed. Being retired gives us the freedom to stay home. Unlike many in our county we have the means to prep a bit (land to garden, canner, jars, etc). We already had our wood supply ready for the winter heating season. Unlike most of our county we have excellent internet connectivity because we are less than 1/4 mile from a large rural school. Again unlike most we are on a chip sealed road which means we get door delivery of mail, fed ex, and ups.

    I can’t “fix stupid” if people want to see the pandemic as a hoax, not mask, etc. But for now I can safely and comfortably avoid them. I have a paramedic kid and a school teacher kid and grands in grade school and high school. So have I lots of praying to do.

    I also spend a lot of that connected time urging people to stay home when possible. You may have to work that out of the home front line job, but on days off you don’t have to be in church, the movies, at the marina, a parade, or the fair or football game. All of us can cut down on social interaction in person to some degree. Every little bit helps.

  210. linda,

    I truly loved your comment. 🙂 Thank you for taking the time to write all the vivid descriptions…it’s like reading through a collage of photographs.

  211. “I really laugh when Ken said he spent “100 Hours researching it”!”

    Jeffrey – my apologies for not being more clear.

    The hours I spent researching were on the history of how the allopathic practice of medicine began and who funded it. The same powerful and wealthy families that prevented the electric vehicle from being developed early on, and later the real possibility of filling our fuel tanks in our vehicles with water a half a century ago are the same group of people who funded Western medicine associations, universities, and hospitals, and put their manufacturing byproducts from coal and oil in pharmaceuticals. Manipulative and evil people for sure.

    Good history: https://www.corbettreport.com/bigoil/

    Yes, I’ve known for many years who you are and what you do. Did you know Fauci has all the telltale signs of a professional liar, and has many conflicts of interests to be in a position of authority?

    Serving kids in Japan – proffs from JHU have used the terms “exosome” and “virus” interchangeably in reasearch papers when discussing the so called HIV virus. Dr Andrew Kaufman has covered this issue.

    Max – thanks. Same to you! I know you are educated in environmental sciences, but I encourage you to read outside of your comfort zones.

    https://kellybroganmd.com/masks-have-you-been-captured-by-this-psyop/

  212. I realize I’m considered the loose nut here, but I suspect few are actually willing to take the time to read links I’ve posted, especially if your income and reputation depends on not understanding the suppressed side of health. This is not unlike what is happening in today’s churches and the amount of control they have over their sheep.

    So here’s an excerpt from the link I referred above to Max to show their are a growing number of doctors that have refused to give credence to what authorities today are insisting is causing illness world-wide.

    “The history of so many “theories” originates with a fraudulent agent (Pasteur) offered the spotlight by (secret society) elite who wish to leverage certain “scientific” information in order to maintain population-based control, submission, compliance, and dependency on the pharmaceutical industry. What works better than to convince people to be scared, not only of their own bodies and other people’s bodies, but also of invisible demons that can attack you randomly. And there is nothing you can do except hide, and in a worst case scenario, present to the temple of the hospital for salvation. Oh, and you can also repeatedly inject yourself with unstudied chemicals and fetal and animal tissues for “protection.”

    No.

    The body is far more sophisticated than that, and there is far more innate purpose and psychoemotional meaning in our symptoms than the system would have you believe. In fact, Antoine Béchamp, Pasteur’s contemporary, and one of the original contributors to terrain theory (or lifestyle medicine), presented his findings in pleomorphism demonstrating that intracellular entities (microzymes) transform into and mobilize as tissue-specific bacteria when the body needs help clearing damaged tissue. And what we call viruses may be no more than bodily exosomes (also known as “viral like particles” because they are literally indistinguishable from what conventional medicine calls viruses), designed for detox-based, inter-individual and cross-kingdom communication of nucleic-based information. What we are calling “microbes” are the result and even the support of resolution of disease, not the cause.

    Through this lens, the facts stack up as such:
    there is no new disease in the world, only patented fragments
    all available tests for covid-19 are unreliable and scientifically invalidated
    associated statistics on incidence and mortality are fraudulent
    But, even if we return to the chess board to play the germ theory game, the science of facial covering and even surgical masks (that were never designed for viral-sized fragments but rather for the much larger mycobacterium tuberculosis), speaks for itself. As excerpted from Stand For Health Freedom:

    Mandatory Masks Can Cause Considerable Harm and Are Not Proven Effective
    Evidence that face masks reduce the transmission of viral respiratory infections within community settings is equivocal at best. A recent meta-analysis of scientific literature, including 11 randomized, controlled trials and 10 observational studies, found that there was no clear clinical or laboratory-confirmed evidence that masks prevent infection.[2] To the contrary, the study warned that facemasks “…may even increase transmission if they act as fomites [objects or materials that are likely to carry infection] or prompt other behaviours that transmit the virus such as face touching.”
    This echoes World Health Organization (WHO) guidance published on January 29, 2020 entitled, “Advice on the use of masks in the community, during home care and in healthcare settings in the context of the novel coronavirus (‎‎‎‎‎2019-nCoV)‎‎‎‎‎ outbreak.”[3] In it, the WHO says, “Wearing medical masks when not indicated may cause unnecessary cost, procurement burden and create a false sense of security that can lead to neglecting other essential measures such as hand hygiene practices.” Furthermore, the January 2020 WHO guidance stated that “Cloth (e.g., cotton or gauze) masks are not recommended under any circumstance.”
    Cloth masks have been found to be particularly problematic.[4] A British Medical Journal (BMJ) study published in April 2020 cautions against the use of cloth masks, citing “Moisture retention, reuse of cloth masks and poor filtration may result in increased risk of infection.”[5] The WHO affirms increased infection risk with cloth masks in its latest June 5, 2020 guidance.[6] It based its guidance on an earlier BMJ study that found the penetration of particles to be 97% in the cloth mask group, with significantly higher rates of infection and influenza-like illness.[7]
    A study on the CDC website that reviewed 10 different randomized clinical trials worldwide on highly infectious respiratory virus transmission found “no significant reduction” in “transmission with the use of face masks.”[8]
    Given the lack of evidence for their use,[9] and flip-flopping advice both against and for their use by authoritative health agencies like the WHO, the increasing pressure to wear masks in public — and the decreased ability to access basic services required to maintain one’s health, liberty and livelihood — constitutes an unnecessary power grab and means of controlling the population.

  213. Ken: I encourage you to read outside of your comfort zones.

    https://kellybroganmd.com/masks-have-you-been-captured-by-this-psyop/

    Hi Ken – I read the article. Whew! Some of Dr. Brogan’s quotes remind me of John Piper tweets … kind of out there. I also read a bit of her background. Did you know that she promotes coffee enemas for depression?! (something that has long been discredited as a medical procedure by lots of smart folks)

    Yep, I think I’ll keep wearing my mask … it’s my comfort zone. I’ll also keep pouring my coffee into the upper end of the alimentary canal.

  214. Max: I’ll also keep pouring my coffee into the upper end of the alimentary canal.

    However, some coffees don’t deserve upper alimentary canal entrance. But that is a different topic.

  215. Ken F (aka Tweed): some coffees don’t deserve upper alimentary canal entrance

    Agreed! I’m a coffee-connoisseur. In fact, I could not provide the wit and wisdom I do on TWW comments if I wasn’t enabled by caffeine 🙂 However, there’s some really bad java out there – more akin to paint-stripper than beverage.

  216. Max – thanks for caring enough to actually read the article. You’re on the right track! The only specific objection mentioned is her use of coffee? Strange. Was that intended to discredit her?

    Did you read the link of the transcript I posted to Geoffrey about how big oil conquered the world and took over Western medicine?

    If more people understood how the US medical system is the leading cause of death (700k – 800k) year after year with **no significant consequences**, then I think daddy gov and mommy medicine would not have so much success using fear of a so-called virus to control society to the extent that people have allowed it. They are relying heavily on psychological means to do so, certainly not “unbiased scientific smarts”.

    Ken F – I forgot to thank you for your support in your comments above about me on Wade’s site (you’ve said the same thing to HUG not too long ago here). It’s always good to hear from my fans – i’ll gladly send you a signed T shirt if you want! Use it as a rag if you want.

    Kidding aside – you’re a good guy, and I’ve benefitted from your perspectives.

  217. “By Gary Null, PhD; Carolyn Dean MD, ND; Martin Feldman, MD; Debora Rasio, MD; and Dorothy Smith, PhD Something is wrong when regulatory agencies pretend that vitamins are dangerous, yet ignore published statistics showing that government-sanctioned medicine is the real hazard.
    Until now, Life Extension could cite only isolated statistics to make its case about the dangers of conventional medicine. No one had ever analyzed and combined ALL of the published literature dealing with injuries and deaths caused by government-protected medicine. That has now changed.
    A group of researchers meticulously reviewed the statistical evidence and their findings are absolutely shocking.4 These researchers have authored a paper titled “Death by Medicine” that presents compelling evidence that today’s system frequently causes more harm than good.
    This fully referenced report shows the number of people having in-hospital, adverse reactions to prescribed drugs to be 2.2 million per year. The number of unnecessary antibiotics prescribed annually for viral infections is 20 million per year. The number of unnecessary medical and surgical procedures performed annually is 7.5 million per year. The number of people exposed to unnecessary hospitalization annually is 8.9 million per year.
    The most stunning statistic, however, is that the total number of deaths caused by conventional medicine is an astounding 783,936 per year. It is now evident that the American medical system is the leading cause of death and injury in the US. (By contrast, the number of deaths attributable to heart disease in 2001 was 699,697, while the number of deaths attributable to cancer was 553,251.5)
    We had intended to publish the entire text of “Death By Medicine” in this month’s issue. The article uncovered so many problems with conventional medicine however, that it became too long to fit within these pages. We have instead put it on our website (www.lef.org).
    We placed this article on our website to memorialize the failure of the American medical system. By exposing these gruesome statistics in painstaking detail, we provide a basis for competent and compassionate medical professionals to recognize the inadequacies of today’s system and at least attempt to institute meaningful reforms.”

    http://www.webdc.com/pdfs/deathbymedicine.pdf

  218. Ken: The only specific objection mentioned is her use of coffee? Strange.

    Someone who is wrong about coffee enemas might be wrong about masks … as strange as that may seem.

    ken: the American medical system is the leading cause of death and injury in the US

    I must have a good doctor then. He has saved my life a couple of times.

  219. Max: I’m a coffee-connoisseur.

    I like you even more. I learned to drink espresso in Italy – they have mastered it as a combination of art, science, and religion. I have to make my own now because it is so hard to find a place who can make it properly where I live. A well-known coffee chain from Seattle should be prosecuted for fraud for the way they make it. It’s barely drinkable in an emergency.

  220. Ken: I forgot to thank you for your support in your comments above about me on Wade’s site

    I believe the truth is somewhere in the middle. My wife is from Europe, where this is more emphasis on traditional herbal remedies. I believe we need to be cautious of all industries, but I don’t think the conspiracies you believe in are plausible. I prefer to find ways to address root causes rather than looking for medications to solve problems (I am an oddity because I am in my mid-50s and am not needing or taking any medications). A lot of it is because my wife has been finding very healthy ways to cook.

  221. Ken F (aka Tweed): A well-known coffee chain from Seattle … It’s barely drinkable in an emergency.

    Proof that Americans will buy paint stripper disguised as coffee just to bask in the experience of sipping it in a quaint shop.

  222. Ken: Did you know Fauci has all the telltale signs of a professional liar, and has many conflicts of interests to be in a position of authority?

    Ad hominem.

  223. Ken: If more people understood how the US medical system is the leading cause of death (700k – 800k) year after year with **no significant consequences**, then I think daddy gov and mommy medicine would not have so much success using fear of a so-called virus to control society to the extent that people have allowed it.

    Have you checked out life expectancy increases in the US in the past century?

    Over the past 160 years, life expectancy (from birth) in the United States has risen from 39.4 years in 1860, to 78.9 years in 2020. One of the major reasons for the overall increase of life expectancy in the last two centuries is the fact that the infant and child mortality rates have decreased by so much during this time. Medical advancements, fewer wars and improved living standards also mean that people are living longer than they did in previous centuries.
    Despite this overall increase, the life expectancy dropped three times since 1860; from 1865 to 1870 during the American Civil War, from 1915 to 1920 during the First World War and following Spanish Flu epidemic, and it has dropped again between 2015 and now. The reason for the most recent drop in life expectancy is not a result of any specific event, but has been attributed to negative societal trends, such as unbalanced diets and sedentary lifestyles, high medical costs, and increasing rates of suicide and drug use.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1040079/life-expectancy-united-states-all-time/

  224. Ken: few are actually willing to take the time to read links I’ve posted, especially if your income and reputation depends on not understanding the suppressed side of health. This is not unlike what is happening in today’s churches

    As TWW regulars know, I have survived three life-threatening illnesses. All were discovered early. I had access to adequate medical care, and followed the most recent treatment protocols.

    Had I not adhered to these treatments, I would not object to your irresponsible statements, because I would be dead in the ground.

    You have accused several people here of personal corruption and (in my case) of saying things that were not said.

    And now you dare to compare patients in clinical settings to brainwashed church abuse victims, on a blog dedicated to supporting abuse survivors.

    That is just plain low.

  225. “You have accused several people here of personal corruption and (in my case) of saying things that were not said.”

    Friend – I am quite capable of making mistakes and will apologize if my memory was incorrect. Are you saying that you were not the person who told me to ‘cease and desist”?

  226. Ken:
    “You have accused several people here of personal corruption and (in my case) of saying things that were not said.”

    Friend – I am quite capable of making mistakes and will apologize if my memory was incorrect.Are you saying that you were not the person who told me to ‘cease and desist”?

    It’s a legal turn of phrase that I don’t recall using in any comment anywhere. Likewise “stuff it” is not an expression I use.

    You are trying to divide the commenters here, in addition to continuing to sow broad doubt in public health, science, government, and medicine.

    Please stop.

  227. Friend: You are trying to divide the commenters here, in addition to continuing to sow broad doubt in public health, science, government, and medicine.

    Please stop.

    Thank you, Friend, for writing the words I (currently) have not had the emotional or spiritual strength to write.

    For me, as is the case for many other people, anniversary dates (of any kind) or birthdays are very difficult to weather, and this particular anniversary date has been dogging me for many years.

    Finally, I have come to understand I have been carrying the guilt for the loss of someone (from my childhood) who is still alive, but with whom a number of years ago I had had to block all contact. This person was always trying to destroy that which was good and trying to promote that which was evil.

    The process to reach understanding has taken me a VERY long time, as there was a bucketload of garbage that needed to be cleared away first….

  228. researcher,

    Sympathy to you as you grapple with a problematic anniversary.

    Over time I have found healing on TWW, and I hope you experience the same. Sometimes the subject matter is deeply disturbing and I take a break; yet I do come back, because insight helps over the long haul.

  229. Ken,

    Please settle down. This is not a blog to discuss COVID and the folks that you read about the subject. 1st Warning. I am temporarily placing you in ferment moderation.

  230. Friend – please accept my sincerest apologies for not remembering correctly who told me to ‘cease and desist’. I found the comment and it wasn’t you, but a similar name.

    Dee – will do!

  231. Friend: Have you checked out life expectancy increases in the US in the past century?

    Small comfort if YOU’re one of those at the low end of the bell curve in the life expectancy lottery.
    But hey, roll the dice, Slick!

  232. Headless Unicorn Guy: My real name is Ken, and after reading Ken(TM) I am so glad I use a handle online.

    And for me, I find it much simpler to remember Headless Unicorn Guy 🙂 than to remember the extra name-identifying-details for the other TWW Ken’s. (No offence to the other TWW Ken’s intended.)