The Gospel Coalition Created Cool Christianity, aka the YRR Celebrity Cult, and Are Pretending They Had Nothing to With It

Crab Nebula: Observations Through Time-NASA, JPL

“Well you, young man, need to learn about what is much more important than cool. And that is: what is beautiful.” ― John Butler


Recently, Brett McCracken, Senior Editor of The Gospel Coalition (TGC), wrote a post that startled me: Cool Christianity Is (Still) a Bad Idea I have been following TGC since I started blogging in 2009. Let’s take a look at some quotes from the article.

  • Sensing new urgency to make the gospel more appealing to the next generation—which polls showed were leaving faith in greater numbers—pastors, church leaders, and Christian influencers tried to rebrand fail
  • It was the moment when plaid, skinny jeans, beards, and tattoos became the pastor’s unofficial uniform.
  • Mark Driscoll’s Seattle megahurch dissolved.
  • I know a few people who have stayed in hip churches for most of the last decade, but many more have moved on to another (usually liturgical and refreshingly boring) church.
  • For pastors and churches, chasing “cool” is a fool’s errand
  • Attempts to square Christianity with the politics of whatever audience you want to impress (and this happens across the spectrum) eventually leads to a faith shaped by politics rather than a politics shaped by faith.
  • A theologically conservative 20-something seminary grad is amped about planting a church in some post-Christian place with killer coffee
  • An initially earnest attempt at “relevant Christianity” gave way to cynicism, a compromised witness, and maybe even abandoning the faith.
  • But ignorance of the past makes evangelicals susceptible to all manner of theological and ecclesiological confusion.
  • But secular observers are right to be suspicious when they notice the large number of churches pitching themselves as new, different, and out-of-the-box (“We meet in an abandoned J. C. Penney!” “Our worship band sounds like Pink Floyd-meets-Sigur Rós!” “We’re charismatic Calvinists with an in-house coffee roaster!”)
  • All the cool churches, well-coiffed pastors, and sleek “new ways to be Christian” pitched in the last two decades haven’t reversed the downward trend of Christian affiliation in America.
  • Better than the awkward desperation of “cool Christianity” is the quiet confidence of faithful Christianity.

I agree with much of what McCracken says. I am one of those who left the megachurch movement to become Lutheran, a move that has been the smartest church move my husband and I have made in years. Prior to that, I left my Reformed Baptist church, visited another mega Reformed Baptist church, and watched an intellectually stimulating non-denominational church become a Reformed church in which the newbie pastor preached the value of Mark Driscoll, John Piper, and CJ Mahaney. he was a big The Gospel Coalition fan along with the typical and necessary references to Tim Challies and Kevin DeYoung. They also paid a correctly submissive attitude to JD Greear’s Summit Church because one cannot be a *cool* Reformed church without such homage.

Unlike those he speaks of in his post, I am well aware of church history (I devised a way to teach the history in the church to adult Sunday school classes) and have devoted myself to documenting the trends in churches since the beginning of the third millennium. At one point, a college professor contacted me to let me know he used some information about the development of the church during the last 20 years and he included it in his history book. Please note. I am not doing anything special. I’m just documenting what everybody sees out there.

My Response: TGC needs to look in the mirror. They are the epitome of cool Christianity.

The Gospel Coalition started in 2005. In 2006, Collin Hansen wrote: Young, Restless, Reformed: Calvinism is making a comeback—and shaking up the church. TGC totally bought into this movement and it supported was *the thing* to do. Let’s take a look at those TGC pushed.

CJ Mahaney:

Mahaney was a previous TGC Council member. It was his influence within this crowd that brought Reformed thinking together with charismatic theology. He used to have a prophecy microphone in his meetings. I started documenting the excesses in Mahaney’s church when I first started blogging. Then, quite quickly, came the horrific accusations of the coverup of many sex-abuse accusations which was well documented in The Sex-Abuse Scandal That Devastated a Suburban Megachurch.

He came out of the shepherding movement in the 70s which had become known for all kinds of abuse. For example, he developed a bizarre response to those asking tough questions, telling them that they were sinfully craving answers. 

Mahaney was loved by Mark Dever, Al Mohler, Ligon Duncan…the list goes on and on. Does anyone remember the numbers of young men shaving their heads to look like Mahaney? As I raised a red flag, I was accused of slander by none other than TGC editor, Joe Carter. Mahaney was pushed at all the right conferences. Young, restless, and Reformed men rushed to get him to autograph his books like the laughable Humility, True Greatness. If this book is recommended by your church, you have some church leaders who don’t know what’s been going on.

TGC: You created the hype behind Mahanehy and you’ve got bird doo on your heads.

Joshua Harris: 

Harris was a member of the TGC council. How many of the dudebros bought into I Kissed Dating Good-bye which would lead to much pain? If you have the time, go to the TGC website and Google all of these names. For example, search Josh Harris and The Gospel Coalition. I think you will be surprised.

There were a number of posts praising Harris. Mahaney was Harris’s mentor so his weirdness intertwined with Harris. Of course, Harris eventually quit the Council over the mess with Mahaney. He has gone onto a new life and a new identity. Yet, there are many who continue to push his previous nonsense. They are still recommending his books at TGC since they are listed under *resources.*

Mark Driscoll:

TGC dudebros pushed every aspect of Mark Driscoll. They all wanted to dress like him, talk like him, and act like him. Can you imagine? When I first spoke out against the excesses of Driscoll, the blowback was terrific. His sweet followers sent me emails calling me a *radical lesbo* amongst other choice language.  I sincerely believe that today’s in your face authoritarianism is residual garbage from the Driscoll days. Recently, I went back to see how many Driscoll posts were still on TGC’s site. The website has been scrubbed. Guess they were a bit embarrassed by their close association with him. For crying out loud, even John Piper endorsed him, saying he looooooooved Driscoll’s’ theology. In the Calvinista world, if you run around saying things like Institutes, Synod of Dordt, TULIP, elect, etc. Piper will loooooove your theology.

I wrote this post 3 years ago. When Will TGC and Friends Admit That Mark Driscoll Taught Tacky Theology? They haven’t. Being a YRR Calvinist means never having to explain anything.

Janet Mefferd exposed plagiarism on the part of Mark Driscoll. I have heard from several sources that a certain Reformed/Calvinist seminary leader intervened and Mefferd was told to apologize although she was correct. There may have been threats of a job loss in there but maybe I’m *misremembering.*

How about the time he called Queen Esther a slut because his daughter said so? What about the Song of Solomon fiasco in which he sermon was scrubbed from a website in Scotland? I believe the glorification of Driscoll has led today to dudebros who still want to be like him. The man as a king culture had its big start at Mars Hill and may women were hurt. Do you remember the time he threw a hissy when his wife cut her hair because it had become difficult to manage while caring for all of their kids? He demanded she grow it right back and discussed her sin in front of the whole church. It’s still long today. Oh yeah, there was the thing about the sex demons...

Duck Dynasty

Google The Gospel Coalition and Duck Dynasty. Do you have any idea how many articles they posted spouting the theology of the bearded ones? Do you know how many of the dudebros, hoping to be *popular*,  grew beards like the DD boys? The dudebros were either deliberately bald or hugely bearded.

TGC Resources: Does this represent what they really care about?

I expect that the dudebros will try to say they’ve gotten rid Mahaney, etc.  Go to the Resource Section and look at how many things they still recommend by Mahaney…  Mark DriscollTullian Tchvidjian…There are  5 articles on Duck Dynasty …   only 7 articles on sex abuse in the church, … 72 articles on gender…This may explain why things are rather quiet on the sex abuse front.

The appearance of the dudebros

In the post, McCracken said this about the *cool pastors.*

It was the moment when plaid, skinny jeans, beards, and tattoos became the pastor’s unofficial uniform.

There are many pastors within the Reformed camp who still dress in skinny jeans or jeggings, especially if they are under 50. Well, there is one 50+ Reformed guy who wears jeggings but has a huge potbelly. But, hey, if he feels good, let him be. #jeggingsaren’tcool.

Sneakers

Also, have you seen the expensive sneakers that have become de rigueur? JD Greear was seen porting a $250 pair which is cheap compared to some. Although I must admit I have never spent $250 on a pair of sneakers. ( He says they were given to him which is what lots of these guys say when cornered.) Ed Young Jr. is the king of getting people to give him things like cars and leather pants for his wife. (This was 25 years ago when I was there for a very short period of time.)

“The New York Times wrote Let He Who Is Without Yeezys Cast the First Stone “Should pastors wear $5,000 sneakers? There’s been soul-searching recently over materialism in houses of worship.”

Sneakers appear to be just the newest iteration in how fashion has influenced religious expression.

…“You could think about it this way: They’re making sneakers a liturgical garment,” said Anthea Butler, an associate professor of religious studies at the University of Pennsylvania.

Here is a link to Preachers and Sneakers on Instagram

Tattoos and Body Building

I have seen Reformed pastors with tattoos. I have seen many pastors who are into bodybuilding. Those are the guys who wear tight tee shirts.They have to show off somehow.

Final thoughts:

In the end, my point is this. Cool Christianity is alive and well and living within The Gospel Coalition. TGC has fallen into the trap of cool Christianity within its own *cool* parameters. We posted this 4 years ago. Together for the Gospel – Who Is REALLY Being Worshipped?

Here’s how Carl Trueman explains the potential pitfalls of the YRR movement:

“The significance of the leaders of the YRR movement, however, seems less like that of ages past and at times more akin to the broader cultural phenomenon of the modern cult of celebrity, a kind of sanctified Christian equivalent of the secular values that surround us.”

Trueman goes on to name the world’s celebrities: Brad, Angelina, Tom, Barak, etc., and explains that the Christian world has its celebrities, too.  Then he then hints of the idolatry described in 1 Corinthians 1.

Here are quotes from Trueman’s article that I found thought-provoking:

“The supply side economics of the YRR movement is also worrying here, as it can easily foster such idolatry by building up a leader’s importance out of all proportion to his talent.”

“Carrying on from the danger of personality cults, part of me also wonders if the excitement surrounding the movement is generated because people see that Reformed theology has intrinsic truth or because they see that it works, at least along the typical American lines of numbers of bodies on seats (in Britain, we’d say ‘bums on seats’…)”

“Finally, I worry that a movement built on megachurches, megaconferences, and megaleaders does the church a disservice in one very important way that is often missed amid the pizzazz and excitement: it creates the idea that church life is always going to be big, loud, and exhilarating, and thus gives church members and ministerial candidates unrealistic expectations of the normal Christian life.”

Trueman then explains that in the real world many of us worship in churches of 100 people or less, and church for most of us is rather routine and ordinary.  All the hype will inevitably lead to disappointment.

The concluding paragraph of Trueman’s article begins as follows:

“Ultimately, only the long term will show if the YRR movement has genuinely orthodox backbone and stamina, whether it is inextricably and inseparably linked to uniquely talented leaders, and whether ‘Calvinism is cool’ is just one more sales pitch in the religious section of the cultural department store.  If the movement is more marketing than reality, then ten to fifteen years should allow us to tell.  If it is still orthodox by that point, we can be reasonably sure it is genuine.”

Our question about the YRR movement is this:  just who is being glorified – God or man?  We can be so idolatrous.  That’s why God’s first commandment is “You shall have no other gods before me.”  For those of you who are caught up in the YRR movement, it’s just something to think about…

The Gospel Coalition needs to look in the mirror. There they will discover who created the *celebrity cult.*

Comments

The Gospel Coalition Created Cool Christianity, aka the YRR Celebrity Cult, and Are Pretending They Had Nothing to With It — 168 Comments

  1. Nothing to do with it?!! Lord, there have been so many “plaid, skinny jeans, beards, and tattoos” at TGC conferences that you couldn’t easily locate suit & tie New Calvinists like Mohler. Yeah, TGC leaders share responsibility, along with potty-mouth Driscoll and other such rebels, for creating this blight on the American church. “Where else are they going to go?!” TGC-guru Mohler proclaimed.

  2. “A theologically conservative 20-something seminary grad is amped about planting a church in some post-Christian place with killer coffee”

    Yeah, and 1000 of them each year are coming out of SBC seminaries to plant their killer theology across America … including seminaries led by some of the TGC leaders like Mohler and Akin. Most of them prefer yuppie suburbia, rather than post-Christian places (although, it could be said that America is now largely post-Christian).

  3. “ignorance of the past makes evangelicals susceptible to all manner of theological and ecclesiological confusion”

    Ignorance by millions of non-Calvinist believers regarding the YRR New Calvinist movement is also causing theological and ecclesiological confusion in the churches they take over by stealth and deception.

  4. “cool churches, well-coiffed pastors, and sleek “new ways to be Christian” pitched in the last two decades …”

    … have been encouraged by The Gospel Coalition.

  5. “Better than the awkward desperation of “cool Christianity” is the quiet confidence of faithful Christianity”

    “Faithful Christianity”, of course, is only represented by New Calvinism.

  6. – Designer Outlet Churches
    – badly amplified rock concerts that leave you mindless, and are “anointed” so you “mustn’t touch”
    – Bethelated and Torontulated spirits
    – takeover by po faced outsiders with strange foreign connections
    – fellowship forbidden from June to October inclusive (by the Laws of the Medes and the Persians, handed down on Graven Tablets at the commercialised Camps and Conferences)
    – don’t think you’ve / the next person has got gifts, because you / they haven’t
    – nasty men & women who crowd you on your way in and prod, poke, rub & stroke you because they insist they have got to be “friendly” (and one who did horrible things to my hands)
    – elders that stop mixing
    – unexplained rows
    – portraying Christ as demeaning us, similar to them
    – cynical stunts
    – sentimental intensity in “communion ceremonies” by the biggest betrayers

  7. I watched the interview Warren Throckmorton did with Sutton Turner and Dave Bruskas. The last 4 years make the Driscoll scandal seem so quaint.

  8. I read the TGC article and agree with it…. and also agree that they need to look in the mirror.

    This quote caught my eye:
    “ It can’t help but feel like churches are just consumer products seeking to differentiate themselves in a crowded marketplace—entrepreneurial schemes and gimmicks to sell some spiritual experience”.

    That is exactly what CJ Mahaney did that made SGM “successful” for a couple decades. I think what he lacked in teaching ability he made up for in marketing savvy. The years of nepotism and double standards finally caught up. It is sad, really. A lot of people have been hurt and disillusioned and it is really telling that the TGC crowd cannot see the role they played in it.

  9. George,

    Marketing “Christianity”, unfortunately, is nothing new…. , good old USA seems to be the center of “marketing mania”… when you mix Madison Ave with promise of heaven, you get a powerful mix… you get to sale a “product” that no one can test and come back to say you are wrong !

  10. This post resonates with me. I’ve been keeping an eye on the church I used to attend. The pastor is on Twitter and he constantly links to quotes from Gospel Coalition guys. Some of the quotes are quite good, actually, but I question his discernment. If only he would do an internet search on the background of the men he quotes, he might learn that many of them are part of abuse cover-ups or weird theology. The lack of discernment extends to church members who are into a variety of flaky stuff including connections to “classical Christian schools” in Doug Wilson’s network of schools. I tried speaking up about these things a few years ago but I was regarded as a complainer so I left. If they’re happy with their cool church and their cool pastor, what more can I say? I just wish the eyes of the church would be opened to reality. Thank you for the post, Dee. It needed to be said.

  11. George: This quote caught my eye:
    “ It can’t help but feel like churches are just consumer products seeking to differentiate themselves in a crowded marketplace—entrepreneurial schemes and gimmicks to sell some spiritual experience”.

    No other religious group in my 70+ years as a believer has branded themselves so well in the Christian marketplace as the New Calvinists. Talk about schemes and gimmicks!! We have darn near lost a generation of young seekers to this aberrant faith thanks to their marketing strategy.

  12. They like to hear themselves talk, thus they write commentary which, like rhis post states, is actually about themselves… yawn.

    Sometimes there’s no there there. Movin’ on now.

  13. TGC dudebros pushed every aspect of Mark Driscoll. They all wanted to dress like him, talk like him, and act like him.

    Including his Erotic fixation with both ends of the alimentary canal?

  14. Speaking of Cool, here’s a classic by Oscar Brown:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShhzY26LfIc

    No footage remains of the filk of it used in a Flip Wilson Show skit. I remember the ending scene/last stanza changed to say “The shot went past her, bounced off the wall, and made my big toe — small.”

  15. Google The Gospel Coalition and Duck Dynasty. Do you have any idea how many articles they posted spouting the theology of the bearded ones? Do you know how many of the dudebros, hoping to be *popular*, grew beards like the DD boys?

    ZZ Top was there first.

  16. dee:
    nmgirl,

    What did you think of that interview?

    I thought it was quite interesting, especially because both men were surprised that it was Resultsource that was the final straw. They felt that there was so much going wrong, that this was just one more thing.

    I got a sense that both were ashamed that they hadn’t done anything sooner but at the same time kept making excuses why they had not. It is the same feeling I get about people who are frightened of Donald Trump. A few mean tweets and rude nicknames should not stop people from doing the right thing.

    I know nothing about Sutton Turner but to discover that he moved on to The Village Church makes me think he didn’t learn his lesson.

    I hope someone else who was more closely involved watches the interview. I look at it from a non-believer’s point of view and I would like to hear other opinions. Driscoll and SGM made me very glad I had walked away from christianity years ago.

  17. Judson Taylor, 19th century English missionary to China, started wearing local Chinese clothing to gain acceptance of the local population. It worked.

  18. “Recently, I went back to see how many Driscoll posts were still on TGC’s site. The website has been scrubbed. Guess they were a bit embarrassed by their close association with him”
    ++++++++++++

    were they, now.

    i just happened to be perusing The Wayback Machine….circa 2009…

    here’s the webpage where TGC promotes Mark Driscoll and his incredibly offensive & pornographic sex talk in Scotland, “Sex, A Study of The Good Bits of Song of Solomon”.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20090220064735/http://thegospelcoalition.org/

  19. TGC features Collin Hansen’s The Gospel in Every Sermon: Dever, Driscoll, and MacDonald

    “…TGC council members Mark Dever, Mark Driscoll, and James MacDonald address this question from their varied experience as they discuss the pastor’s ministry of evangelism in this video roundtable.”

  20. https://web.archive.org/web/20110129015759/http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2011/01/26/the-church-planters-rude-awakening/

    TGC featured article:

    The Church Planter’s Rude, Great Awakening

    “Could it be that these grand visions come from looking at men like Tim Keller and Mark Driscoll, believing they could be just like one of their heroes?”

    “Everybody wants to be the next Driscoll, Piper . . . everybody wants to be the guy most downloaded on iTunes, the guy that gets to speak at conferences.”

    ..among many other references to MD.

  21. dee: Was it the jeggings?

    These guys are SO absurd! Why has God allowed so many people to be blinded by them?? They are salesmen to a religion of their own making that mainly serves to feed their egos. It’s so easy to see if you have a little common sense. They post about everyone getting off and not believing what they read on social media while creating a social media empire designed for indoctrination and marketing.

  22. elastigirl,

    Figures, they can’t even keep their “in” and “our” list straight…
    I only had to listen to a YouTube video MD for 5-10 minutes to know I would never take anything this guys says as “from G$d”…… his “type” make my skin crawl…

  23. Oldster: I tried speaking up about these things a few years ago but I was regarded as a complainer

    So was Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah … and Max.

  24. elastigirl: “Everybody wants to be the next Driscoll, Piper . . . everybody wants to be the guy most downloaded on iTunes, the guy that gets to speak at conferences.”

    I have a feeling that the Creator of the Universe has been watching this closely and “down”loading a lot of these folks.

  25. Brian,

    Yes he did. Hudson Taylor was a humble man who trusted Jesus and grew in humility the older he got. Many of His grandchildren and great grandchildren still walk with Jesus. The Chinese men and women he discipled have spiritual legacies which remain in the Chinese church to this day. I’ve met some humble Chinese followers of Jesus who have told me their Grandparent was discipled by Taylor. Putting on Chinese clothing allowed Taylor and his colleagues (many of whom were single women!!) to distance themselves from western imperial connections including any ties to business venturers or the British colonial complex. What they didn’t do was put themselves at the center of the churches they started or build christian empires which benefitted them financially. Their work was to raise up local leaders and make others great, not stroke their egos. What a far cry from the YRR.

  26. Fisher: Hudson Taylor was a humble man who trusted Jesus and grew in humility the older he got. Many of His grandchildren and great grandchildren still walk with Jesus. The Chinese men and women he discipled have spiritual legacies which remain in the Chinese church to this day.

    You will never hear a YRR “pastor” say this:

    “Carrying the cross does mean following in Jesus’ footsteps. And in His footsteps are rejection, brokenheartedness, persecution and death. There are not two Christs – an easy going one for easy going Christians, and a suffering one for exceptional believers. There is only one Christ. Are we willing to follow His lead?” (Hudson Taylor)

    Heck, the new reformers don’t even talk about Jesus, let alone follow His lead! They are following Piper et al.

  27. Oldster: I just wish the eyes of the church would be opened to reality. Thank you for the post, Dee. It needed to be said.

    Six years ago, my husband and I left a good church because we got caught up in the hype of the YRR crowd. Having learned the error of our ways, we’ve returned to said church. There has been a massive turnover in senior leadership since then (some retirement, some moving to other jobs). The current senior pastor seems to be leading the church more in the way of Chandler, Dever, Piper, etc. It is disappointing, to say the least.

    The other night, after another lengthy discussion about what exactly we’re going to do about our concerns, my TEDS educated husband asked, “Are there any Anglican churches in the area?”

    This should be an interesting journey.

  28. Amen Dee. They need to look in the mirror.
    And now they are all in on Critical Race Theory. Which if I understand correctly is about reparations for African-American people. Their track record is so abysmal yet they will have followers for a totally void teaching. Chandler, Dever, Leeman, Tripp and others are all in on reparations evidently. Sorry, my Bible says you don’t hold the children accountable for the sins of their fathers.

  29. Wild Honey–when our local SBC all went Calvinist, and the UMC decided to ditch a place for the conservative wing, a curious thing happened:

    Many Baptists are now in the LCMS. Many Methodists are now in the RCC, and some unwilling to go quite that far are considering how to get an Anglo Catholic (not the same as Anglican) church started.

  30. Joshua Harris’ “I Kissed Dating Goodbye” was a self-righteous disaster. And yes I read the book way back when it was popular. At least Joshua had the stones to do something other Christian writers who pen disasters…disavow the book and request it stop being published.

  31. Max: Carrying the cross does mean following in Jesus’ footsteps. And in His footsteps are rejection, brokenheartedness, persecution and death. There are not two Christs – an easy going one for easy going Christians, and a suffering one for exceptional believers. There is only one Christ. Are we willing to follow His lead?” (Hudson Taylor)

    Thanks for posting that Max. What a breath of fresh air. I think I will get out my dog eared copy of “Hudson Taylor’s Spiritual secret” and read it again. (His “spiritual secret” was relying completely on Jesus.)

  32. Wild Honey,

    Wildhoney, sorry to hear about your church changes. We left our church last year because of a new dogmatic Calvinist pastor. And it seems most all of the elders are Calvinists too. It seems the only choices we have for churches now are lukewarm/compromising ones, mega-ones, too tiny ones, or denominations we aren’t comfortable with. Plus I am too tired to try again, only to possibly find out later it’s Calvinist too. So we have chosen to stay home for now, watching good sermons online. It’s not ideal, but my heart and soul are healing and feeling alive again, after six years of suffocating, soul-killing Calvinism. God bless you on your church search.

  33. Sandy,

    “Dissent and alternate opinions are not allowed.”

    So true! The last straw for us at our Calvinist church was when I posted a comment on the pastor’s “predestination” post where I disagreed with his view that the Bible clearly teaches predestination (the way they define it). It was a Bible-verse-based comment, explaining why I think there’s more than enough in the Bible to throw Calvinism into doubt. My comment showed up a few hours but then was deleted. My guess is the secretaries posted it, but then the pastor saw it and deleted it. I knew then that differing opinions would not be allowed. As the Calvi-pastor loved to say in his sermons about his view of predestination, “You only have three options: get angry about it, ignore it, or accept it”. No disagreement allowed. Talk about manipulation! After six years of theological/Calvinist beatings, we were more than happy to get outta there.

  34. elastigirl: “TGC Asks: What’s Next for Church Planting?

    SBC’s church planting program with young reformers fresh out of seminary has never been about planting Gospel churches … it has always been about planting reformed theology as quickly as possible across the American landscape. With inexperienced, immature “lead pastors” in their 20s-30s and “elder” teams of same age, they have wreaked havoc in the SBC.

  35. heather: I am too tired to try again

    The American church in many corners has become exhausting … it should be a refreshing experience. New Calvinism will beat you to death spiritually … just too much error for a believer to tolerate. Until this mess blows over, you don’t have to go to church – be the church to those around you.

  36. Fisher: I think I will get out my dog eared copy of “Hudson Taylor’s Spiritual secret” and read it again. (His “spiritual secret” was relying completely on Jesus.)

    New Calvinism’s “spiritual secret” is Piper! Here’s the secret: one’s spiritual health depends on who they follow … Jesus or Piper.

  37. Dan from Georgia: At least Joshua had the stones to do something other Christian writers who pen disasters…disavow the book and request it stop being published.

    Then he promptly disavowed Christianity! New Calvinism will end in disillusionment and despair for others when the bubble finally breaks. Whose plan would that be?

  38. researcher: imagine playing that video in a church

    I’ve actually been to churches like that, including SBC-YRR church plants in my area. The resemblance is striking.

  39. Max: Whose plan would that be?

    Well, I think you are referring to the Enemy with a capital E. However, New Calvinist churches, and megas in general, are perfectly fine with vacuuming up all the worshipers for miles, driving their previous congregations out of existence.

    And then, after one too many scandals or experiences of abuse, there are fewer places to go. Home looks mighty sweet.

  40. Wild Honey: another lengthy discussion about what exactly we’re going to do

    A dilemma being played out by countless believers across America as the organized church spirals into chaos, with a host of ministers and ministries desperately off-track. It won’t get any better until the Church (the real one) takes 2 Chronicles 7:14 seriously … unfortunately, I don’t see much movement in that direction. So, we are just stuck doing church without God in many places or becoming a “Done” and praying for revival and spiritual awakening before it is too late.

  41. Friend: New Calvinist churches, and megas in general, are perfectly fine with vacuuming up all the worshipers for miles, driving their previous congregations out of existence.

    There is nothing “of God” about this strategy. Rebellion always ends badly.

  42. Max: Then he promptly disavowed Christianity!New Calvinism will end in disillusionment and despair for others when the bubble finally breaks.Whose plan would that be?

    Haven’t heard that he’s disavowed a cent of the sales or other $$$$ from those times

  43. Fisher: What a breath of fresh air.

    The New Calvinists miss so much deemphasizing Jesus in their churches.

    “The branch of the vine does not worry, and toil, and rush here to seek for sunshine, and there to find rain. No; it rests in union and communion with the vine…Let us so abide in the Lord Jesus.” (Hudson Taylor)

  44. JDV: Haven’t heard that he’s disavowed a cent of the sales or other $$$$ from those times

    I guess he used that filthy lucre to finance his “storytelling” business. He sure told some whoppers when he was in the ministry!

    https://joshharris.com/

  45. I think at a base level it has something to do with their view of God, where God is both the cause and initiator of problems – as well as the only cure for those same problems. So their authoritarianism and socialization and how they do ministry culture follows that same pattern.

  46. Max,

    Yes Max, that is the worst part, both Harris’ departure and the whole New Calvinism and it’s inevitable fallout. Besides being some of the most insufferable believers around, they really do enslave. I have a friend who struggles with the assurance of salvation thing, and yet he adheres to Calvinism and the teachings of John MacArthur. Match…meet gasoline.

  47. Dan from Georgia: I have a friend who struggles with the assurance of salvation thing, and yet he adheres to Calvinism and the teachings of John MacArthur. Match…meet gasoline.

    There is no freedom in Christ within New Calvinism. Many don’t rest in Jesus and the assurance of salvation of knowing Him because they know only jots and tittle of reformed law. They put their trust in doctrinal propositions, rather than a personal encounter with Christ … New Calvinism is another gospel which is not the Gospel at all.

  48. heather,

    “It seems the only choices we have for churches now are lukewarm/compromising ones”
    ++++++++++

    i completely sympathize and understand your situation.

    my one thought is this: as i see it, what is considered ‘conservative’ theology has gone off the deep end. christian theology/doctrine has gotten so specific and narrow — on just about any topic, there isn’t room for other perspectives and ways of doing things.

    it wasn’t this way when i was growing up in church.

    i think it is entirely plausible that what may be ‘lukewarm, compromising’ is well within the bounds of conservative christianity in the big picture.

  49. heather: It seems the only choices we have for churches now are lukewarm/compromising ones, mega-ones, too tiny ones, or denominations we aren’t comfortable with. Plus I am too tired to try again … So we have chosen to stay home …

    The good news is that those churches exist. In some places, they are gone, or variety never existed. But you are right to stay home as long as you wish and need to.

  50. Max,

    And, just reading the Gospels for themselves….. one of the most “reassuring passages” is the thief on the Cross…. no reciting of creeds, no making sure they are “member in good standing”, Christ is very clear… unless you do not take Christ’s words seriously…. and as Max points out, these New Cals seem to avoid Christ

  51. Hebrews 13:8 makes it abundantly clear that ‘gimmicky churchianity’ simply never works, because Jesus never changes! “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.” His message is just as real, relevant and life-changing as it was in the first century. Leave the plaid shirts and skinny jeans at home and just preach the (real) Gospel!

    The irony of this post is no more ridiculous than the Southern Baptists who wonder why baptisms and church memberships are down when they stopped preaching the Gospel and quit doing those ‘superstitious altar calls!’ DUH!

  52. Jeffrey Chalmers: New Cals seem to avoid Christ

    They have subordinated the Son of God into oblivion. Their New Testament begins with Romans, not Matthew. Their trust is in a distorted Paul, not Jesus. Their whole system of faith is built on the wrong J.C.

  53. Ken A: And now they are all in on Critical Race Theory. Which if I understand correctly is about reparations for African-American people. Their track record is so abysmal yet they will have followers for a totally void teaching. Chandler, Dever, Leeman, Tripp and others are all in on reparations evidently. Sorry, my Bible says you don’t hold the children accountable for the sins of their fathers.

    But it’s not the sins of their fathers, not when people of color have all sorts of aggressions on a daily basis just because of their skin color. We’re talking about being passed over for promotions and raises, having their houses appraised $100,000 less because there was a Black presence, worrying about whether the next police stop is going to turn into a life or death situation and I could go on and on. No, this is OUR GENERATION. I was four years old when the Civil Rights Act was passed. I was five years old when the Voting Rights Act was passed. Jim Crow was all up and into my childhood. We have not even begun to make things right. Not when lots of people think it’s OK for the cops to just shoot a guy seven times in his back. I thought we were a nation of laws, not a nation of lynchings under the color of law.

    Sorry to rant, but I had a conversation with one of my Black coworkers today, a really nice guy who moved from Alabama to Arizona to take advantage of a job with our team. He’s a college grad, ex-military, in his early 50s. And he does not understand why, after all this time, all this is still happening, why there is still so much hate of Black people. It just keeps happening. I told him that if he ever wanted to rant at a white woman, I am here to listen.

    Oh, and “Critical Race Theory” is just a framework. Don’t use it as an excuse to not deal with the racism that is shot through our society. Just don’t.

  54. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: Oh, and “Critical Race Theory” is just a framework. Don’t use it as an excuse to not deal with the racism that is shot through our society. Just don’t.

    As I’ve said before, it’s very unlikely the New Cals actually believe it. If you look hard enough, you can see evidence that they still hold Founder theology and believe in slavery. They openly have transferred that to women, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s anyone who doesn’t fit their definition of elite.

    They lie about a lot of things. Don’t believe them when they say they might support something.

    I don’t disagree with you, btw. I just think that what the New Cals really believe is more akin to The Handmaid’s Tale than what they claim.

  55. Max: I’ve actually been to churches like that, including SBC-YRR church plants in my area. The resemblance is striking.

    Part of the reason I found the video so amusing is because (for a short time) I attended an abusive “church” that followed a similar “formula”.

    I have been a “Done” for a couple of years and find Church in some of the oddest places.

  56. ishy: I don’t disagree with you, btw. I just think that what the New Cals really believe is more akin to The Handmaid’s Tale than what they claim.

    I’m going to be honest–every time I see a Neo-Cal with a beard, all I can think is Joseph Fiennes as Commander Waterson in “The Handmaid’s Tale.” And lest one think that uniform of plaid shirts, beards and jeans is an exaggeration, when I protested T4G in 2018, I had to stifle more than one panic attack as hundreds and hundreds of men wearing plaid shirts and jeans and sporting beards walked towards me from the convention hotel. It’s like a uniform with these guys.

  57. Dan from Georgia: Simply stifling is Calvinism.

    When New Calvinism entered the SBC, long-standing Baptist doctrines of soul competency and priesthood of ‘the’ believer were diminished … thanks to Al Mohler’s revisions in the Baptist Faith & Message 2000. Law began to replace life within many churches as New Calvinist belief and practice took root. The core identity of Southern Baptists has been changed without the masses crying foul … it’s the darnedest thing I’ve ever seen.

  58. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: hundreds and hundreds of men wearing plaid shirts and jeans and sporting beards walked towards me from the convention hotel

    Lemmings. They’ll all go over the cliff together when the New Calvinism bubble breaks.

  59. elastigirl: my one thought is this: as i see it, what is considered ‘conservative’ theology has gone off the deep end. christian theology/doctrine has gotten so specific and narrow — on just about any topic, there isn’t room for other perspectives and ways of doing things.

    it wasn’t this way when i was growing up in church.

    i think it is entirely plausible that what may be ‘lukewarm, compromising’ is well within the bounds of conservative christianity in the big picture.

    Agreed.

    A friend who is exploring their own theology recently asked something along the lines of “can you not be an evangelical and still believe in the Bible?” And I thought to myself, “Church, what are we doing so wrong, that someone who has grown up in the church is wondering this?”

  60. ishy: I just think that what the New Cals really believe is more akin to The Handmaid’s Tale than what they claim.

    This book needs to be a wake-up call to complementarian men who honestly respect women. If this is how “the world” views complementarianism, then there is something seriously wrong with how this theology is too often lived out in churches and homes.

  61. nmgirl: I know nothing about Sutton Turner but to discover that he moved on to The Village Church makes me think he didn’t learn his lesson.

    I had the same thought. If nothing else, it’s certainly ironic.

    Just a minor correction, I think it was Dave Bruskas who currently works for The Village Church. Sutton Turner works for an organization that helps with pastoral searches, if I’m remembering correctly.

  62. Wild Honey,

    It is my observation that the “Church” is slow to change. Further, we live in a time that the rate of change scientifically/ technologically is increasing…. these two opposite facts set up fundamental conflicts that “controlling, have to have answer” people love to to “get in the middle of”…

  63. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    Galatians 5:12:
    Freedom in Christ
    …11 Now, brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12 As for those who are agitating you, I wish they would proceed to emasculate themselves! 13 For you, brothers, were called to freedom; but do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh. Rather, serve one another in love.…
    Berean Study Bible · Download

    According to this post that Ken F. cited, Paul was wrong in being not just critical, but being sarcastic in his comments… hummm…

  64. Jeffrey J Chalmers,

    PS… less you think PAul’s comment is no big deal:
    In the Old Testament: No one whose testicles are crushed or whose male organ is cut off shall enter the assembly of the LORD. — Deuteronomy 23:1 (ESV) (“…shall not enter the assembly of the Lord” is claimed by rabbis to mean that he cannot marry a daughter of Israel.)

  65. “TGC dudebros pushed every aspect of Mark Driscoll.”

    No doubt about it! In the early days of the New Calvinist movement, Driscoll was a TGC Council Member! Yep, TGC embraced and promoted the bad boy – they viewed him as an asset to the new reformation. Of course, they distanced themselves from the potty-mouth when the potato became a liability too hot to handle … but they share responsibility for creation of the dudebro army wreaking havoc on the American church. Driscoll’s legacy lives on at TGC – his loyal followers still go to their conferences.

  66. linda: considering how to get an Anglo Catholic (not the same as Anglican) church started

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglican_Catholic_Church
    http://www.saintmarysacc.org/about-us/history-of-our-diocese/
    http://www.anglicancatholic.org.uk/

    “Anglican Catholic Church” is separate from the Anglican communion. (In the UK “Anglo-Catholic” is merely a style of churchmanship within the C of E.)

    Are the above mentioned and very similar “Continuing” groups who you have in mind?

  67. ishy: I just think that what the New Cals really believe is more akin to The Handmaid’s Tale than what they claim.

    What do you mean “akin to”?
    Complemntariaism(TM) and Biblical Manhood(TM) IS The Handmaid’s Tale. All that’s missing is the Coup to Establish a Truly Christian Nation(TM). And every Biblical Manly Man (TM) sees himself as a Commander of Holy Gilead — “WOMAN, SUBMIT!”

  68. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: I had to stifle more than one panic attack as hundreds and hundreds of men wearing plaid shirts and jeans and sporting beards walked towards me from the convention hotel. It’s like a uniform with these guys.

    Like haircuts in North Korea or The People of Destiny, like Brollys and Bowler Hats in Moscow, Idaho, it’s their Badge of LOYALTY to The Movement. MORE LOYAL THAN THOU.

  69. Jeffrey J Chalmers: No one whose testicles are crushed or whose male organ is cut off shall enter the assembly of the LORD. — Deuteronomy 23:1

    New Calvinism is crushing balls and calling it masculinity. Their fixation on gender roles harms both men and women in different ways. Feature, not bug.

  70. Wild Honey: This book needs to be a wake-up call to complementarian men who honestly respect women. If this is how “the world” views complementarianism, then there is something seriously wrong with how this theology is too often lived out in churches and homes.

    The Handmaid’s tale is also how many in the egalitarian church (myself included) view complementarianism, and TGC does nothing to change that perception. If anything, they inculcate their readership with increasingly more disturbing doctrine.

  71. Max: Lemmings. They’ll all go over the cliff together when the New Calvinism bubble breaks.

    There’s a whole crop of em’, and many will convert to fundamental atheism.
    Sad, because it doesn’t have to be this way.

  72. Muff Potter: There’s a whole crop of em’, and many will convert to fundamental atheism.

    i.e. the “Take Your God And Shove It!” reaction.
    And they will be as rabid a Fundamentalist for Atheism as they were for Calvin.

  73. “…the numbers of young men shaving their heads to look like Mahaney”

    This isn’t new, of course. I knew a worship leader around 1980 who permed his hair and grew a bushy beard so he’d look just like Keith Green.

  74. Muff Potter: There’s a whole crop of em’, and many will convert to fundamental atheism.
    Sad, because it doesn’t have to be this way.

    “For those who guide this people are leading them astray; And those who are guided by them are brought to confusion.” (Isaiah 9:16 NASB)

  75. Headless Unicorn Guy: i.e. the “Take Your God And Shove It!” reaction.
    And they will be as rabid a Fundamentalist for Atheism as they were for Calvin.

    Can’t blame them. However, I think the anger typically dies down, as it does in most people who move on with their lives after realizing they have spent years in an abusive situation.

    There’s a belief among some Christians that atheists are angry God-deniers who roast infants. The farther we stay away from that line of thinking, the better…

  76. Wild Honey: The other night, after another lengthy discussion about what exactly we’re going to do about our concerns, my TEDS educated husband asked, “Are there any Anglican churches in the area?”

    This should be an interesting journey.

    It might be worthwhile for you and your husband to check out Anglican churches if there are any around you. I’m pretty happy with the one I found, but it might be too soon to tell.

    I think it will be an interesting journey for all of us, all the way home.

  77. Sandy: Dissent and alternate opinions and options are not allowed.

    Yes, that has been my experience. Dissenters are pitied (“Poor thing, she doesn’t know any better”) or labeled as rebels or heretics.

  78. StillWiggling: “…the numbers of young men shaving their heads to look like Mahaney”

    This isn’t new, of course. I knew a worship leader around 1980 who permed his hair and grew a bushy beard so he’d look just like Keith Green.

    But were there tens of thousands of them?!

  79. StillWiggling: bushy beard

    Oh, and we can’t forget the Driscoll spiky hairdo! Nor the long-pointed Calvin beard for the really serious among them. All, of course, toting only ESV Bibles and quoting Piper. Yep, I would say it’s a personality cult.

  80. Ken F (aka Tweed): Get your supplies while they last:
    https://www.missionalwear.com/
    (and this is not the only site with reformed gear)

    Who buys their toddler a t-shirt that says “Theology Matters”?

    Oh and those busts of theologians…should I ask them why they’re promoting proud slaveowner Jonathan Edwards (Sr)? (To be distinguished from Jonathan Edwards Jr, his son, who was one of the first people in the Colonies outside of the Quakers to write favorably about abolition.)

  81. Max,

    “…the Driscoll spiky hairdo! Nor the long-pointed Calvin beard for the really serious among them. All, of course, toting only ESV Bibles and quoting Piper. Yep, I would say it’s a personality cult.”
    +++++++++++

    sounds like jr. high to me. (or middle school as it’s called now)

    how can it be that they never grew up?

  82. elastigirl: how can it be that they never grew up?

    Growing up = No more fun

    If you do church your way (even if it means cutting Jesus out of it), you can have fun! Church as entertainment … it’s happening all over America, even with adults.

  83. Coming soon – T shirts with “Total Depravity” on the front and “Limited Atonement” on the back.

  84. Ken A: Chandler, Dever, Leeman, Tripp and others are all in on reparations evidently. Sorry, my Bible says you don’t hold the children accountable for the sins of their fathers.

    Russ Parker wrote about this. The persons listed are trying to discredit it (as everything) by their insincere toying.

  85. On September 25th, 2017, Piper published an article entitled Does God Really Save Us by Faith Alone? In the article, he maintains that initial justification is by faith alone, but introduces a concept that is completely foreign to the Bible: the concept of “final salvation” on the basis of our works and obedience. He writes,

    In justification, faith receives a finished work of Christ performed outside of us and counted as ours — imputed to us. … In final salvation at the last judgment, faith is confirmed by the sanctifying fruit it has borne, and we are saved through that fruit and that faith.

    … These works of faith, and this obedience of faith, these fruits of the Spirit that come by faith, are necessary for our final salvation

  86. May: Piper … introduces a concept that is completely foreign to the Bible

    The tenets of New Calvinism at their core are foreign to the whole of the Bible … the new reformer’s theology depends on twisting Scriptures to make it fit their belief and practice. Piper’s gospel is another gospel which is not the Gospel at all.

  87. May,

    The tension between Jesus’ warnings and prophecies of judgment that, read plainly, look very much like “salvation through works” and Paul’s writings that on conventional understandings look very much like “salvation through faith alone” has been a perennial problem.

    Personally, I think that the predestinarians’ solution works reasonably well — God who decrees that some shall have genuine faith also decrees that those same people shall bring forth “fruit in keeping with repentance”, so that final judgment could indeed be on the basis of “how the person lived”.

    My private view is that Jesus’ warnings relate to the crisis then facing Israel, the looming catastrophic war with Rome, and that the people who escaped death in that war did so by obeying Jesus (for example, Jesus’ command to flee Jerusalem at the approach of the Roman army).

    This also helps to resolve a real puzzle in Hebrews 6, that speaks of those who have “tasted the powers of the age to come”, which sounds an awful lot like “saved”, and yet fall away and have nothing left except fearful expectation of judgment. This is a real puzzle on conventional understandings of wrath and salvation (whether predestinarian or not), but is readily interpretable if one thinks of the wrath that threatened the Hebrews as being an imminent historical reality. A believing Jew who had repented of militant aspirations and left the “war party” in Israel to follow Jesus could, in principle, go back to his old ways. Such a person would likely perish in the coming war along with the other militants, since he did not continue in Jesus’ “way of peace.”

  88. Wild Honey,

    “A friend who is exploring their own theology recently asked something along the lines of “can you not be an evangelical and still believe in the Bible?” And I thought to myself, “Church, what are we doing so wrong, that someone who has grown up in the church is wondering this?””
    +++++++++++++++++

    my brain is super tired, so comprehension is not tops at the moment:

    would you be able to flesh out her thinking?

    to me, the problem is the trending trend of the christian with power deciding who is a christian/evangelical and who is not based on the criteria of his own interpretation.

    so, to me the issue is whether one believes the bible, but rather whether one conforms to the ruling party line on interpretation.

    a ridiculously small umbrella, and all who don’t conform to fit under it are flame-thrown with “liberal!” “heretic!”

    or the sly and sneaky version that uses words to embroider and imply that such a person is most likely not a christian, has had their name nixed from the Lamb’s Book of Life, is a dangerous person, and if you don’t avoid such a person you are putting yourself and your family at risk.

  89. Muff Potter,

    “Lotsa’ men never grow up.
    They run rampant in the secular world too.”
    ++++++++++

    forgive me for throwing this into the mix.

    i’ve observed that many men in marriages want mommies for wives.

    when not wearing their career hat, they do whatever they want and feel like doing. like a 6-year old playing with their tinker toys, and who goes out to play whenever he feels like it. mom handles and manages everything.

    sort of the kind of lack of awareness of the consequences of one’s actions that a 6-year old has.

    **this wouldn’t apply to the men who comment here, though**

  90. elastigirl: when not wearing their career hat, they do whatever they want and feel like doing. like a 6-year old playing with their tinker toys, and who goes out to play whenever he feels like it. mom handles and manages everything.

    Thank you, elastigirl, for including this excellent explanation. 🙂

    I lived in a lengthy, non-physically abusive marriage and never quite found the words to express the overall picture of an utterly draining “marriage”.

    One thing I would add to your description, although it may not apply to others in this situation (but is often used in other situations).

    Used by my (non-believer) ex in MULTIPLE situations, not only in our “marriage”: “It’s easier to ask for forgiveness afterwards than to ask for permission ahead of time.”

  91. researcher,

    “Used by my (non-believer) ex in MULTIPLE situations, not only in our “marriage”: “It’s easier to ask for forgiveness afterwards than to ask for permission ahead of time.””
    ++++++++++++

    first off, most of my observations have been of ‘believing’ individuals.

    Praying the sinner’s prayer doesn’t give one a maturity boost. neither does the passage of time afterwards, apparently (with or without spiritual pursuits).

    it’s curious to me how perceived ‘spiritual maturity’ and emotional maturity / personal responsibility don’t intersect.

    secondly, i find it curious that those who operate by “It’s easier to ask for forgiveness afterwards than to ask for permission ahead of time” either don’t realize or else don’t care that they are deemed a total d|ckhe@d-on-legs for doing so.

  92. May:
    On September 25th, 2017, Piper published an article entitled Does God Really Save Us by Faith Alone? In the article, he maintains that initial justification is by faith alone, but introduces a concept that is completely foreign to the Bible: the concept of “final salvation” on the basis of our works and obedience. He writes,

    In justification, faith receives a finished work of Christ performed outside of us and counted as ours — imputed to us. … In final salvation at the last judgment, faith is confirmed by the sanctifying fruit it has borne, and we are saved through that fruit and that faith.

    … These works of faith, and this obedience of faith, these fruits of the Spirit that come by faith, are necessary for our final salvation

    Saved by fruit? How does that reconcile on the thief on the cross? I’ll go with the place of works per Eph. 2:8-10 and Titus 3:4-8, which also comports with the nature of fruits evincing salvation as further discussed in James 2.

  93. Pardon me if my writing is “fuzzy” or causes any offence, I am attempting to write through the usual migraine.

    elastigirl: first off, most of my observations have been of ‘believing’ individuals.

    I have never attempted to identify a believer from a “believer” from a non-believer. I grew up in a mostly secular world, although I had (and still have) strong ties to the non-secular world.

    At the risk of (potentially?) triggering someone, I will add the bit about (paraphrasing) God being the only One Who truly knows someone’s heart.

    “Praying the sinner’s prayer doesn’t give one a maturity boost. neither does the passage of time afterwards, apparently (with or without spiritual pursuits).”

    I would agree with that…

    “i find it curious that those who operate by “It’s easier to ask for forgiveness afterwards than to ask for permission ahead of time” either don’t realize or else don’t care that they are deemed a total d|ckhe@d-on-legs for doing so.”

    Amen to that! No surprise then that after our divorce my ex was “let go” (although not by being fired) from his secular job.

  94. It’s straying further from the topic, but there are also few married women who expect hubby to take care of their every whim. Spoiled adults come in all shapes and sizes. 🙁

  95. researcher,

    “I have never attempted to identify a believer from a “believer” from a non-believer.”
    ++++++++++

    i think i understand.

    i’m reacting to another observation:

    Problem A– the best human beings i’ve known are expressly ‘non-believers’ (not in the church club). their kindness, honesty, sincerity, compassion, generosity, their general integrity standards at their own expense outshine what i’ve observed in ‘believers.

    i’ll never get over the christian way of elevating themselves and those in their religious club as elite human beings.

    Always accompanied by some kind of humble brag, like “christians aren’t perfect, just forgiven.”

    …which in my estimation is the source of Problem A, to begin with.

    (spoken as a christian, if the Nicene Creed counts for anything)

  96. elastigirl: “christians aren’t perfect, just forgiven.”

    …which in my estimation is the source of Problem A

    Yes, that arrogant phrase certainly absolves Christians while posting martyr points and silencing and condemning everybody else, eh? That one has bothered me since shortly after youth group.

  97. Friend,

    i’m sure this is true. although it hasn’t shown itself in my observations over time.

    this is not to say that generic husband or male partner doesn’t have valid ‘observations’ about wife/partner or wives/partners in general he’s observed either.

    we all have areas that need our attention.

    (i don’t like terms husband / wife… legal terms, & to much shackling baggage. i much prefer ‘partner’. it’s the true meaning of marriage [along with faithful love commitment]. it’s the ‘partnership’ i have with my husband that means a lot to me, not the husbandship and wifeship.)

  98. elastigirl: Problem A– the best human beings i’ve known are expressly ‘non-believers’ (not in the church club). their kindness, honesty, sincerity, compassion, generosity, their general integrity standards at their own expense outshine what i’ve observed in ‘believers.

    i’ll never get over the christian way of elevating themselves and those in their religious club as elite human beings.

    Always accompanied by some kind of humble brag, like “christians aren’t perfect, just forgiven.”

    …which in my estimation is the source of Problem A, to begin with.

    Thank you elastigirl, for putting so beautifully into words what I was trying to describe.

    Folks tend to assume if someone doesn’t attend a physical church, a Bible study group, participate in very specific good-work-type activities, etc., then one is not a Believer.

    Quoting from your later reply to Friend: “i don’t like terms husband / wife… legal terms, & to much shackling baggage. i much prefer ‘partner’. it’s the true meaning of marriage [along with faithful love commitment]. it’s the ‘partnership’…”

    I would agree with that….

  99. elastigirl: it hasn’t shown itself in my observations over time.

    As always, a thoughtful response.

    Life is hard, especially when responsibility and hardship strike and and mortality starts to rear its head. That wipes out a lot of self indulgence. Unfortunately even hardship doesn’t take the selfishness out of some people (married or not).

    Maybe we usually call them narcissists. But some selfish adults don’t merit an actual diagnosis.

  100. researcher: Folks tend to assume if someone doesn’t attend a physical church, a Bible study group, participate in very specific good-work-type activities, etc., then one is not a Believer.

    Those “folks” would be named Judgy McJudgface.

    Sometimes I’m glad to live in a region full of workaholics who tend not to check on others’ Sunday morning activities.

    Thinking about our six closest neighbors, all are Christian, and none would pass muster with the fundagelical crowd.

  101. Friend: Sometimes I’m glad to live in a region full of workaholics who tend not to check on others’ Sunday morning activities.

    I live in a region where A) most people are workaholics, especially the church crowd, B) most people monitor their neighbours life (prior to moving neighbourhoods, I had folks commenting on the time I got up in the morning), and C) there are a significant number of VERY patriarchal and / or cultic churches.

  102. researcher,

    I’m sorry. That sounds demoralizing. I hope that other things in your life make up for that. Anyway, you’re here, and I’m grateful that all of us are here. 🙂

  103. researcher,

    and thirdly, (cuz i’ve been numbering my thoughts):

    I’m very sorry for the lengthy abusive marriage you endured. I don’t doubt you. I believe you. I am very sorry.

    goodness… psychological abuse, emotional abuse leave one in a state of PTSD. puts way back in life progress. I know this very well (from extended family relationships growing up, and from years of pastor experiences.) no visible scars. all on the invisible inside. but life-destroying.

    but we keep on.

    and make beautiful things of our lives.

    (God has a hand in that, too — but, of course, God is invisible. i’m not waiting for God’s timetable – i’m actively making a beautiful thing of my life.

    to me, that’s the heart of personal responsibility.

    actually, i believe God is joining me, God’s hand with my hand, God’s voice with my voice, God walking alongside me as I walk…

    holding my hand if need be. yanking my hand high in the air and cheering “THE WINNER AND STILL THE CHAMPION” in a silly, nasal voice but meaning every word… it’s actually happened.)

  104. Friend: I’m grateful that all of us are here.

    Thank you for your kind words. I, too, am grateful for TWW folks (including those who read but, for any number of reasons, can’t comment….for quite a long time, I have been one of the non-commenting readers 🙂 ).

  105. elastigirl: I’m very sorry for the lengthy abusive marriage you endured. I don’t doubt you. I believe you. I am very sorry.

    goodness… psychological abuse, emotional abuse leave one in a state of PTSD. puts way back in life progress…..no visible scars. all on the invisible inside. but life-destroying.

    Thank you for believing me – there are many who would doubt me were I to speak up. And yes, the invisible scars and Complex-PTSD have taken me a long time to overcome. I feel so, so sorry for some of the other women I see around me, as, for many of them, there is no way for them to escape.

    I like what you wrote: “i believe God is joining me, God’s hand with my hand, God’s voice with my voice, God walking alongside me as I walk…”

    For me, there are still many days when God is (almost literally) carrying me, yet He never gets tired….

  106. Friend: It’s straying further from the topic, but there are also few married women who expect hubby to take care of their every whim.

    Reddit is full of such Karen Encounters.
    Search YouTube for “karen encounters reddit” and see what comes up.
    Usually with the tag “r/entitledparents” from the channel “r/mr reddit” or “Mr Reddit”.

  107. elastigirl: such a person is… a dangerous person, and if you don’t avoid such a person you are putting yourself and your family at risk.

    Like your Social Credit/Social Harmony (Loyalty) Rating in China.

  108. Max: Michael in UK: T shirts with “Total Depravity” on the front and “Limited Atonement” on the back

    “Some Lives Matter”

    Shouldn’t that be “MY Life Matters. NOT Yours.”?

  109. Headless Unicorn Guy: Shouldn’t that be “MY Life Matters. NOT Yours.”?

    Sadly, that is exactly how they think. But I don’t think that comes from anywhere in their actual theology. I think they start with that as an assumption because they’re the type of people that think the world revolves around them (and not even God).

  110. ishy: they’re the type of people that think the world revolves around them

    New Calvinism has gobs of folks like that … their exclusive theology attracts such characters … the air flows thick with “It’s all about me” arrogance in their ranks.

  111. Max: New Calvinism has gobs of folks like that … their exclusive theology attracts such characters … the air flows thick with “It’s all about me” arrogance in their ranks.

    After all, THEY’re The Predestined Elect, chosen to be God’s Speshul Pets before the Creation of the World!

  112. ONLY “IN CHRIST” ARE WE CHOSEN. Ephesians 1:4

    His atonement paid for our sins. Outside of Christ NO ONE is chosen.

    It’s not anyone’s merit, or cuteness, or smarts, or lucky draw, or theology, or church or seminary connections, or any “natural talents”, or popularity, or human approval….that gets us anywhere with the Holy God!

    Somebody must tell these people (hyper Calvinists) with such evil view of Who God really is. He is not a God of partiality.

  113. Headless Unicorn Guy: Shouldn’t that be “MY Life Matters. NOT Yours.”?

    An Evangelical couple we knew took their honeymoon on a exotic Pacific island. A tidal wave washed over the island, killing many. The couple emailed everybody to say, “Jesus protected us the whole time.” Not a word about the dead islanders and other tourists, or the destruction of homes, crops, businesses, roads, wildlife, trees………

    (I tried to post this earlier, but it seems to have vanished amid the IT issues.)

  114. elastigirl: so, to me the issue is whether one believes the bible, but rather whether one conforms to the ruling party line on interpretation.

    a ridiculously small umbrella, and all who don’t conform to fit under it are flame-thrown with “liberal!” “heretic!”

    Yes, this.

  115. birdoftheair: Somebody must tell these people (hyper Calvinists) with such evil view of Who God really is. He is not a God of partiality.

    The Apostle Peter told them that over 2,000 years ago …

    “He does not want any to perish, but all to come to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9)

    … but they prefer theology over Truth.

  116. These preachers are fooling the dumbest of the dumb with the fake cool they are trying to do.

    What actual informed people are saying about these laughing stocks.

    They are wannabes.
    They are posers.
    They are desperate.
    They are fake.
    They are thirsty.
    They are insecure.
    They are ninth grade.
    They are embarrassing.

    They are literally a joke to actual cool people.

  117. Guest: These preachers are fooling the dumbest of the dumb with the fake cool

    The problem with deception is that you don’t know you are deceived because you are deceived. At its core, New Calvinism is smoke & mirror deception – from cool hairdos, cool preachers, cool bands, and cool theology which worships dead men … a marketing strategy to steer a generation away from real Christianity.

  118. Max: The problem with deception is that you don’t know you are deceived because you are deceived.

    Deception is often referred to the Dunninger-Kruger effect.

    In researching through various sources for information on the Dunning-Kruger effect, a person can discover some interesting information on how and / or why people might be deceived (fooled).

  119. Guest: They are literally a joke to actual cool people.

    Don’t “actual cool people” actually create the content and start the trend instead of jumping on sombeody else’s KEWL bandwagon going “ME, TOO!”?

  120. researcher: Deception is often referred to the Dunninger-Kruger effect.

    And Screwtape Letters can be read as a catalog of such deceptions and self-deceptions, with the device of Screwtape personifying these deceptions.

  121. Max: … but they prefer theology over Truth.

    Because to them My Theology IS Truth.
    “Calvin has God All Figured Out!”

    The sages have a hundred maps to give
    That trace their crawling cosmos like a tree,
    They rattle reason out through many a sieve
    That stores the sand and lets the gold go free:
    And all these things are less than dust to me
    Because my name is Lazarus and I live.
    –G. K. Chesterton, “The Convert”

  122. Headless Unicorn Guy: And Screwtape Letters can be read as a catalog of such deceptions and self-deceptions, with the device of Screwtape personifying these deceptions.

    Somewhere in my piles of reading material, I have an as-yet unread copy of the Screwtape Letters.

    I REALLY need a bazillion hours a day to keep up…..VERY big sigh.

  123. Dee, I haven’t been here in a while, but every time I read about your happy discovery of Lutheranism I have to smile. We share the same experience, going from Evangelical to Calvinism ad infinitum.We were at a terribly discouraged point when we visited our LCMS, small”o” orthodox church. We have never looked back and we’ve been there for years now. Our middle son really summed it up. When he was 11, someone asked him why he liked our church so much. He replied ” Because it’s not random”!! My only regret is that we did not raise our older kids here. Our younger ones are now adults and there is none of the cynicism that I sometimes notice in their older siblings…God bless you.

  124. researcher: Thank you for believing me – there are many who would doubt me were I to speak up. And yes, the invisible scars and Complex-PTSD have taken me a long time to overcome.

    And like Frodo after he bore The Ring to Mount Doom, sometimes you never completely overcome it this side of the Sundering Sea.