Then Hwin, though shaking all over, gave a strange little neigh and trotted across to the Lion.
“Please,” she said, “you’re so beautiful. You may eat me if you like. I’d sooner be eaten by you than fed by anyone else. CS Lewis
Megan Hill is the wife of Rev Rob Hill who is the pastor of West Springfield Covenant Community Church. The website is mostly devoid of typical content like biographies, etc. However, what they believe is evident in the Resources Page. Much of what is recommended is hardcore Calvinism: Kevin DeYoung (How do I know I’m a Christia, RC Sproul (Ligonier), The Gospel Coalition, etc. In case members are not educated, RC Sproul once said that those who were not Calvinists were barely Christians. Having spent the first 26 years of my life in Massachusetts, I doubt this sort of approach to faith will be successful. I became a Christian in Salem, MA, and spent several years at Park Street Church which is probably familiar to many in the New England area.
I found a bio for the pastor, Rob Hill at RI School of the Bible where he is listed as a staff member. However, this may be out of date.
Rob Hill is a pastor of West Springfield Covenant Community Church (PCA) in West Springfield, MA. Prior to moving to West Springfield in June 2015, he served for 11 years as a pastor of Pinehaven Presbyterian Church in Clinton, MS. Rob received his B.A. from Grove City College in western Pennsylvania and his M.Div. from Reformed Theological Seminary in Jackson, MS. He is married to Megan, and they have three sons: Brad, Caleb, and Nathan. Rob has written “Walter Lowrie (1784-1868), Champion of Presbyterian Missions” that was published in the Puritan Reformed Theological Journal (January 2014). Rob grew up with Christian parents, and came to saving faith in Christ at a young age. He loves the Lord who saved him, loves Christ’s church, and is excited to see the Lord build his kingdom in New England. When he gets some time, Rob enjoys reading, playing golf, and rooting on his Pittsburgh Pirates.
Rob HIll’s wife has a visible presence on a few websites such as Desiring God and The Gospel Coalition. Both are hardcore Calvinist sites. She has written several books and articles. This is her bio on The Gospel Coalition website.
Megan Hill is a pastor’s wife living in Massachusetts and an editor for The Gospel Coalition. She is the aut”No matter how ordinary or inadequate our shepherds may seem, they are Christ’s gift to his church (Eph. 4:8, 11). And when we are willing to be shepherded by them, it will be for our souls’ eternal good. hor of three books: A Place to Belong: Learning to Love the Local Church (Crossway, May 2020), Contentment: Seeing God’s Goodness (P&R, 2018) and Praying Together: The Priority and Privilege of Prayer: In Our Homes, Communities, and Churches (Crossway/TGC, 2016). Her writing has appeared in various publications including Christianity Today, The Washington Post, Today in the Word, Reformation 21, Focus on the Family, Desiring God, and Tabletalk. She belongs to West Springfield Covenant Community Church (PCA). You can follow her on Twitter.
The following post written by Megan Hill has received some play on Twitter. However, it was largely negative. Are You Easy or Difficult to Shepherd? The following are some quotes from the article which will be followed by some of my thoughts.
- (Referring to a pastor who is 25 years old. Think about this.) “They knew he was inexperienced, but they didn’t despise him for his youth; instead, they gladly received his ministry. They knew he was their shepherd, and they determined to be willing sheep.”
- “The flock’s duty and privilege, then, is to joyfully receive the care of its shepherds.”
- “No elder will be perfect this side of heaven, but if a church’s elders don’t have elders’ gifts, they shouldn’t serve as elders.”
- “By joining a local church, we submit ourselves to the leadership of those shepherds so they can then know and care for us.”
- “Do you follow the guidance of your shepherds—putting into practice what they teach you from the Word and supporting them as they make decisions concerning the life of the church?”
- “submit to their authority, and recognize the enormous responsibility they owe to Christ himself. “
- “No matter how ordinary or inadequate our shepherds may seem, they are Christ’s gift to his church (Eph. 4:8, 11). And when we are willing to be shepherded by them, it will be for our souls’ eternal good.”
New England has been targeted as the place to be for Reformed and Reformed Baptist churches
I now live in Raleigh, NC, although my daughter now lives in Boston and attends a well-known church. The reasons that New England is becoming the place to plant churches are many but two come to mind. One thing that is not true is that there are not Christian churches in Massachusetts. I know. I became a Christian there.
- In Raleigh, I trip over Reformed and Reformed Baptist churches. There are easily 5 churches that have over 2,000 attendees and too many to count that have fewer members. I bet that sounds a lot to you in West Springfield. The South is inundated with churches and it is hard to start new ones. Usually, it just means that people are transferring from church to church and the church leaders are preaching to the choir. Even the SBC has targeted New England as a way to slow the decline in its denomination.
- In the South, way too many people are well educated on what it means to be a Calvinist. The doctrines of grace are preached ad nauseum and people like me know what’s coming.
Do you what it means to be a Calvinist because your church is most definitely Calvinist as is your church plant, Grace Presbyterian Church, Worcester?
For those of you who are new to Calvinism, you may be surprised to learn that the doctrines of grace have little to do with grace. It is a list of specific beliefs. Since your church recommends Ligonier Ministries, let’s take their definition.
The doctrines of grace are so called because these five major headings of theology, often identified as the five points of biblical Calvinism, contain the purest expression of the saving grace of God.
—radical depravity, sovereign election, definite atonement, irresistible call, and preserving grace—supremely display the sovereign grace of God.
Often those 5 points are listed as the TULIP
- Totaly depravity
- Unconditional election
- Limited atonement (Jesus died only for the elect)
- Irresistible grace
- Preservation of the saints.
If you have been taught this and believe it, that’s great. I disagree with 2 out of the 5 points which makes me an Arminian in their way of labeling. I am a conservative Lutheran.
You must obey them even if they are inadequate or 25 years old.
This is dangerous. I have been writing about church abuse for 11 years. Abuse by leaders always starts with this sort of statement. You need to ask questions.
- Aren’t 25-year-old people often wrong even if they are a pastor? Why don’t you ask your pastor how many mistakes he made when he was 25 years od. What would he have done differently?
- What do they mean by a shepherd’s care? Always ask for definitions of words. In this case, what do they mean by *care?* Did you know that could mean church discipline which can be applied for all sorts of stupid reasons like asking too many questions? Read my blog and see hundreds of examples of this. Care does not just mean *he’ll pray for you.”
- There are many people who have served as elders, having been deemed *gifted to be an elder by God,* who have gone on to make horrific mistakes like covering up child sex abuse, misusing money, having affairs, etc. Even worse, some of them have committed horrific crimes such as child sex abuse, etc. Nope, even the ones who look good on the outside can be bad on the inside.
- What in the world od the mean that you should *submit* to them? You should ask them what they mean. Submit to what? Agreeing to make the coffee on Sunday? In my church, I have agreed to help students with confirmation classes when I was asked. Maybe it means to agree with them in whatever they do. So, if they keep doing more and more church plants, will they answer you if you ask *Where are we going to get the money?* I have yet to get a good answer to what they mean by the word *submit.*
- Oops, maybe I made a mistake. Since they are the elders, it appears your job is to do what they ask you to do because they, and they alone make the decision about what goes on in the church. You guys give them the money so you have the right to question how they use it.
- You must *submit to their authority.* What? What in the world do they mean? Here is an example of a problematic authority. On Wednesday I wrote about a man who was told by his church to stop writing about his personal beliefs regarding theonomy on his Facebook page. Although I don’t believe in theonomy, it is still within the Christian pale of orthodoxy. His pastor told him he couldn’t write that on his page. Just how much authority do you allow your leaders to have in your life? I am grateful to be in a great church in which one of my pastors, when asked about a secondary issue said, “I am not your boss.” Do not let your leaders act like your bosses.
- I disagree with her statement that obeying an inadequate leader will be good for your soul. Would you go to an inadequate cardiologist (my husband’s profession?) Would you hire an inadequate electrician to install a generator? Do you know what happens to those who do? A tragedy might occur for the patient and possible injury for the people in the house. You have someone more than adequate and that is Jesus. Do not accept second best.
A membership covenant is not just a covenant, it’s a legal contract.
Do they make you sign a covenant when you join this church? Most PCA churches do so. I have written extensively on the legalities of these covenants which I call contracts. If you have ever signed one, did your pastor warn you of the legalities of such? These contracts were started in the 90s as a way to prevent churches from getting sued. I recommend that people do not sign one. Did you know that some pastors refuse to admit that this is a legal document?
However, if you do sign one, you can get out of them and I can advise you on how to do so. I do not take ads for my blog or take any donations. My website is my ministry to those in churches who have been hurt or abused. Here is one of the articles I wrote on church covenants.
I would ask that Megan Hill refrain from recommending any book by Donald MacCloud.
As most people know, I write a great deal on sexual abuse in the Protestant church. Here is a link to the Washington Post which featured my blog on the cover of the Sunday Magazine.
Megan wrote an article 5 Books That Taught Me to Love the Local Church. I believe that we should research the authors before recommending the book. She recommended Christ Crucified: Understanding the Atonement by Donald Macleod. A couple of years ago, I traveled to Scotland and met with many people from the Free Church of Scotland (Continuing). MacLeod was put on trial in local court when several women came forward to claimed he had sexually abused them. They believe, as do many. that a grave injustice has been done to those women. I have since had an opportunity to discuss what transpired with several people and believe that MacLeod is guilty of the accusations. I wrote several posts on this matter. Is Professor Donald Macleod Too Sexy For His Own Good? and The #churchtoo Movement Comes to the Free Church of Scotland’s Donald Macleod
We must stand with women who have been abused even if they live far away. Besides, Hill should support these sisters. They are at ground zero for the Reformed movement. (I know, US theologians disagree with me.)
If anyone has questions for me, please comment under the post or send a confidential email to dee@thewartburgwatch.com
#IStandWithMacLeod’svicims
1st
2000 years ago, was there not a young man and his motley merry crew that was so difficult, he paid with his life? For us, humanity? Some of his merry men/women also paid with their lives.
“Difficult” faithful followers, bending their knees to God, their Heavenly Father, alone. Jesus – the most “difficult” – was the middleman to end all intermediaries between men/women and God, is my understanding.
“Difficult”.
What did Paul tell the elders at Ephesus?
Acts 20:29-31 “I know that after my departure, grievous wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock, and out from your own selves, men will rise up, speaking perverse things to draw away disciples after them. Therefore stay awake, remembering that three years night and day I never ceased admonishing each one with tears.“
Now, what was that about “inadequate” shepherds?
My experience has been that when choosing elders (and deacons), churches often pay lip service to the biblical qualifications and freely use the words “shepherd “and “pastoral”, but almost always wind up picking workaholics who are professionally successful and are influential “movers and shakers” in the community. They rarely (if ever) sit down and have a deep level conversation with their spouses, asking what these elder candidates are really like at home… or if they’re ever at home! This type of elder candidate equates being an elder with serving on the board of a corporation, with the lead pastor as the CEO. This contributes heavily to the “boss “mentality that exists and creates a leadership team that almost always elevates the church ( read “company”) and it’s goals, programs, and success as being more important than the hearts of the very sheep that they claim to be shepherding.
When it comes to Calvinism I am a “Christmas Calvinist” — No-L.
T-U- -I-P
That is my experience as well.
drstevej,
Funny!
As someone mentioned on another TWW piece, there seems to be a steady string of such articles about difficult sheep, sheeping questioning authority, sheep leaving without being disciplined, etc. I take it as a good sign that beating congregations with reformed law is getting old in many New Calvinist churches. The sheep are starting to shed their old wool and head for other pastures. It’s about time!
What do you think about R.C. Sproul’s assessment of 4-Point Calvinism?
“There are a host of folks who call themselves four-point Calvinist because they can’t swallow the doctrine of limited atonement … My point is that there is confusion about what the doctrine of limited atonement actually teaches. However, I think that if a person really understands the other four points and is thinking at all clearly, he must believe in limited atonement because of what Martin Luther called a resistless logic.”
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justin-taylor/sproul-on-four-point-calvinism/
As a Southern Baptist for 70+ years (I’m a “Done” now), that was certainly the case with most SBC deacons I knew. They were chosen because they were popular in the church, prominent in the community, wealthy donors, etc. Not many of them had any spiritual bones in their bodies, failing to meet even the most elementary of Biblical qualifications for that sacred office. Heck, they couldn’t even tell you what NT books listed deacon/elder fitness!
Max,
I agree
I did my PhD in Reformation History and Theology at Westminster Theological Seminary so I understand the doctrinal distinctions of the varying views.
I come to Christmas Calvinism via exegesis not by trying to paint a pretty tulip. My view is similar to that held by Moses Amyraut (1596-1664).
I believe that Rabbi from Nazareth demonstrated that “resistless logic” has its limits. (And paradoxes exist.) Going beyond logic is often a way to stimulate “thinking outside the (logical) box”.
And I don’t think that Rabbi from Tarsus used “perverse” in the exclusively-sexual sense Christian moralists use it today. More in the sense of “weird-ass” and “aberrant” like you find in fringe literature.
It’s OK for the shepherds to be inadequate, but not for the sheep, it seems.
That seems cock-eyed to me. I have the impression that those who aspire to teach are held to higher standards than the rest, and judged more harshly.
drstevej,
I agree!
My dad is often nominated to be an elder in his small country church (attendance of maybe 150?). I recall him stepping down as elder when I was in my mid-20’s because of my brother’s behavior (caught shoplifting, possession of drugs, and expelled from school).
My father felt that stepping down was the right thing to do – not because of anything HE had done, but because my brother’s behavior reflected poorly upon the integrity of my father’s parenting, our family name, and his household.
Also, stepping down would give my father a clearer focus to devote time and attention to my brother – shepherding him spiritually at home. I respected him for his choice.
I’m just going to point out that human beings are not sheep. This is what happens to sheep: if they’re wool sheep, they get sheared. If they’re meat sheep, they get slaughtered. One might say this is what happens to people who sit under these jumped up preachers who have arrogated to themselves the authority of the Good Shepherd. There’s only one Good Shepherd- Jesus. These people who go on about about “are you difficult to shepherd” are trying to take the place of the Good Shepherd.
Don’t let them.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
Well put, and good advice.
Charis,
Thank you for sharing the story about your family. I have discovered that even good parents do not guarantee well-behaved children. However, your father really lives by honesty, humility, and honor in Jesus’ name! I respect him highly. We need more elders like him today.
What is it with these Calvinists harping on submission? At the expense of obeying their leaders they would have you ignore your own conscience. Then should your obedience lead to deleterious results, how many of these leaders would absolve themselves of their responsibility?
Jesus has no authority or influence in New Calvinist churches. They are on their own.
Does anyone else get Eric Cartman (from South Park) vibes from these Calvinist pastors? I just can’t get the image out of my head of Eric in his policeman get-up yelling about, “Respect my authoritah!!”
Remember the Blue Oyster Cult title & lyrics?
DOMINANCE and Submission
“DOMINANCE! Submission
DOMINANCE! Sub-mission
DOMINANCE! Sub-mission
DOMINANCE! Submission
DOMINANCE! Sub-mission
DOMINANCE! Sub-mission Sub-mission
DOMINANCE! Sub- submission sub- sub-
DOMINANCE! Submission submission
DOMINANCE! Submission submission submission
DOMINANCE! Sub- submission submission
DOMINANCE! Submission submission submission…”
But POWER means “I get to do Anything I Want. ANYTHING.”
Charis,
Charis, that is a great testimony of your father’s wisdom and dedication to his family. It is probably what made him qualified to be an elder in the first place.
Dee raises great questions with respect to what does “submission” and “being shepherded” mean. Since both Cedar ville University and Liberty U have been recently “featured” of TWW, i know they do not allow Professor there to teach science that does not “toe the specific doctrinal line”. I know churches like this also.
So, the issue that Dee raises is not just behavior, or “moral” or “theological positions”, it can get down to very pragmatic scientific issues… this can result in people becoming “bipolar”; their sacred world and their secular, in some cases, their daily work world. I could give specific examples, but most of you probably know what I am talking about. So, is it OK for 25 year old preachers to delve into the “science” of peoples work?
Mission Creep Sub-text
And, importantly, why does this happen?
Do they advise regarding brain science and neurosurgeons who perform brain procedures? Rocket science, NASA, and Space programs?
What is it about expertise that some don’t get? And why would this occur with preachers – is that unique?
When this is going on, what are the broader implications for their church?
Stepping back to get the picture …
Most 25 year old preachers I have known were too spiritually immature to be turned loose on the church, and shouldn’t be delving into anything! They needed to be mentored by older, wiser pastors for a season before assuming the role of “lead” pastor … and this goes for several SBC church planters in my area who are in their 20s-30s with hand-picked yes-men “elders” of same age.
It’s possible to train someone to preach and teach religious things – Bible colleges and seminaries crank them out by the gobs every year. Churches across the nation hire them to pastor the flock. But only God can anoint a man or woman to proclaim Truth and spiritually equip the Body of Christ. Not every product of higher learning has been called by the most High. Finding these gems in the American church is like looking for buried treasure in a field. They are a rare and endangered species.
PS… love the pic at the beginning…. I sometimes feel like that brown sheep!
Jeffrey Chalmers,
I often feel like the black sheep! T
I bet most of them would agree when they were alone with no one to hear them.
She really does, and it makes me point out the fact that you (generic you) don’t see this silly kind of drama in say, Lutheranism (both Synods), or some of the other Protestant main-lines.
Ava Aaronson,
“2000 years ago, was there not a young man and his motley merry crew that was so difficult, he paid with his life? For us, humanity? Some of his merry men/women also paid with their lives.”
+++++++++++++
i think i’ll just chime in here with this gem:
“find a way to get in trouble. Good trouble, necessary trouble.”–John Lewis
Yes! One finds a great deal of Good Trouble in the history (including today) of God’s faithful. TWW is Good Trouble.
A 25yo can speak to me as a grandmother. Yes ma’am will do just fine.
They are using Hebrews 13:17 as a clobber verse. It is one of their faves. But it is not a command to universally obey the elders and blindly submit to them. It’s more along the lines of don’t be a knothead and resist their instruction because they are given for our good. Assuming they are functioning as they were intended to function, everything should be well. But that doesn’t always happen. So the sheep need to use their heads and think like Bereans.
Wisdom.
“Submit” actually means coordinate proactively (like gears in a well functioning gearbox – crunch!)
In old Rome, the fallback in marriage was for spouses to ignore each other.
A lot of them also just assign themselves leadership over others. TGC writes often about everybody not submitting to them. I believe they are not true followers of God, but followers of themselves, so why would I want their leadership?
I also believe that if you seek a pastor position on the basis of deception or by hiding your true beliefs, you are not a follower of God. Therefore, you should not be anyone’s pastor.
For a bunch of people who claim they are only about the Bible, they ignore a lot of it to claim authority over others.
And yet, instead of responding with humility and changing course, the oh-so-important pastors and their enablers seem to be doubling down. They’re green-lighting articles like this, in order to coax/coerce/frighten the sheep back into their pens. Beating them with even more reformed law until they understand who’s boss, I guess.
I’m reminded of a rather darkly humourous one-liner: “The beatings shall continue until morale improves.”
Would make a great tagline for the New Calvinist brand!
You will have to search wide and far within New Calvinism to find any semblance of joy in the Lord … heck, they don’t even talk about Jesus! On the other hand, you can cut the oppression with a knife when you visit many of their churches – the bondage is particularly obvious on the countenance of women and children. That submission thing must really be getting old in some families.
They are followers of the Calvinist God. Stealth and deception have been the modus operandi of many New Calvinist YRR “pastors” to take over SBC traditional (non-Calvinist) churches. Somehow, they justify such ungodly behavior for the good of the new reformation. You don’t have to listen to these young whippersnappers very long to know that they don’t know Jesus.
This was very explicit in the IFB church I attended in the late ’70s. When the question was raised (I think privately), the pastor made a (I thought somewhat sneering) public reply, “If you can’t run a business successfully, how could you run a church?”
So even then, the church leadership was thought to require the skills needed in business. I should have taken note then.
“Megan Hill is…an editor for The Gospel Coalition.”
Plus on her own blog she’s shared gems like:
“If you marry a preacher, you don’t have the option of leaving his church”
http://www.sundaywomen.com/2011/08/how-to-criticize-sermon-when-youre.html
and
“the counseling issue…seems to have stirred up some strong feelings: No one who comes to my husband for counseling is ever under the impression that he won’t tell anyone else. He often must tell the other church elders where there are needs for ministry and prayer. And when he is counseling a woman, especially with marriage difficulties, he also tells me”
http://www.sundaywomen.com/2011/06/what-not-to-share.html?showComment=1309262287710#c8510106196458647003
Perhaps that’s what Jesus was telling the disciples in their commercial fishing business when He told them to cast their nets on the other side. The Christian Industrial Complex, with its CEO pastors and deep-pocket pews, have been casting their nets on the wrong side of God. They may appear rich and need of nothing, but the Creator of the Universe sees them as poor, blind and naked.
Yeah, TGC uses her a lot as their token woman.
Make that “Poor, blind, naked, and PROUD OF IT!”
AKA “The Gospel According to Gordon Gecko.”
All for The Party, Comrades!
“The one in a thousand Predestined to walk the hard, grey, drab, joyless path of Salvation.”
— James Michener, Hawaii, regarding the New England Calvinist missionaries to “Owhyhee”
“It is not enough for you to obey Big Brother, 6079 Smith W. You Must LOVE Big Brother.”
— Comrade O’Brian, Inner Party, Airstrip One, Oceania, 1984
PLUMBERS do that — apprenticeship to a journeyman or master — why can’t they?
And tokens Never, Ever get Uppity if they know what’s good for them.
Ever heard the origin of the terms “black sheep” and “Judas Goat”?
(Hint: Both originated in mutton Slaughterhouses.)
On the church’s Resources page, the link to Benefits of Church Membership goes to a certain place known well around here:
https://www.9marks.org/answer/what-are-benefits-church-membership-christian/
There’s this on the government of discipline of the church:
https://s3.amazonaws.com/media.cloversites.com/f6/f6479b36-5605-4e75-bf31-86830f4f1feb/documents/Exp_5.pdf
From the Church Membership Application:
https://s3.amazonaws.com/media.cloversites.com/f6/f6479b36-5605-4e75-bf31-86830f4f1feb/documents/Membership.pdf
MY COVENANT WITH CHRIST AND HIS CHURCH
Believing Jesus Christ to be the Son of God, I place my trust in Him as my Savior and I acknowledge Him as my Lord.
I confess my sins, repent of them, and put my trust in the love and mercy of God, revealed in the life, death, resurrection and intercession of Jesus Christ.
Trusting in the Holy Spirit for power and guidance, I shall seek to lead a consistent Christian life, honoring Christ in all my relationships.
I promise to be a faithful member of this Church, supporting it through prayer, Bible study, regular attendance upon worship, unselfish Christian service, and stewardship of my life and possessions.
(Sign here)
In the SBC, the New Calvinists have an aggressive church planting program … 1,000 new churches per year. They need a steady flow of young reformed “lead pastors” fresh out of seminaries to staff their rebellion against mainline (non-Calvinist) Southern Baptists. Thus, SBC’s New Calvinist movers and shakers (Mohler et al.) have to deal with the inexperienced and immature to make that happen … no time to mentor/supervise them. Who cares if they don’t know how to pastor a church?! There’s more being produced where those came from to take their place if necessary. New Calvinism is all about changing the belief and practice of the next generation – they don’t give a big whoop about the older folks; they will all be gone in a few years anyway.
Serving Kids in Japan,
Max: “…I take it as a good sign that beating congregations with reformed law is getting old in many New Calvinist churches.”
Serving in japan: “And yet, instead of responding with humility and changing course, the oh-so-important pastors and their enablers seem to be doubling down.”
++++++++++++++++++
i imagine they see it all as spiritual warfare. the birthplace of the great apostasy.
you know you’ve crossed into Christianland when a really dumb idea that doesn’t take is interpreted as satanic attack.
Of course, info on counseling protocols or anything related is elusive on the website. Perhaps it’s behind the member section of the site, which raises the question of whether only covenant-signing members are availed of it — and then presumably subject to the restrictions therein, especially given the 9Marks connection to membership.
One might think a more appropriate reply concerning an area where privacy is often assumed would be “each and every person (note that she said person, not exclusively member) who comes to the pastor (perhaps better to refer to the husband in that way) is fully informed that what they say isn’t remotely confidential, per our church’s mandatory and clear disclosures, as well as our pastor’s fiduciary duty of disclosure per our bylaws and local and state laws (cuz 9Marks churches by and large would have all of that as a priority as well as transparency given their writings and postings, right?). To not do that would be a gross violation of their privacy expectations, which the church takes extremely seriously as a part of pastoral care. Here’s a link posted clearly on our site to my church’s statements in our counseling material that everyone is asked to review and acknowledge beforehand so that they are fully informed of our policies before they seek counseling with us.”
Or she could reply as she did, complete with the comment about her husband telling her about all women with marriage difficulties (as well as elders potentially on the basis of “needs for ministry and prayer”, which I’m sure is conveyed to the woman up front who contacts the pastor/her husband for counseling, no?
Robert Morris calls Christian watchblogs like TWW “Satan’s Hit List.”
dee,
“I often feel like the black sheep!”
++++++++++
well, who else is going to look the others straight in the eye and say, “…..This is bull$h|t.”
(a technical word)
i’ll just drop this other little gem here:
“the difference between the right word and the almost right word is really a large matter – it is the difference between the lightning and the lightning bug.”–Mark Twain
(wish i had thought of that one)
For quite some time now, I’ve believed that the word “calibrate” is a better word than “submit” or “surrender.”
Jerome,
“Megan Hill is…an editor for The Gospel Coalition.”
++++++++++++
i’m (very mildly) curious as to what all these TGC editors actually do.
Years ago I was looking for articles about leaving Christianity and found a 9 marks article by Mark Dever basically saying that pastors cannot allow people to quit church. This and the whole concept of church discipline was completely foreign to me. My wife’s church had gone through the purpose driven program and has promoted a membership covenant. The church is not Calvinist and we never signed. My wife was raised Pentecostal (not in North America) and this contract business was not a done thing in her tradition.
I’ve since learned it’s quite common and can be legally binding like any contract.
I think churches range from using it as marketing ploy to keep the sheep from ranging but the church in this post is almost certainly about control.
But these groups are of such a different Christian stream that they really are a different religion.
They are not your coreligionists nor do they want to be. Their god is very much the old testament smiting god. The focus is on law and dictates. Their faith revolves around a hierarchical priesthood through which their faith is filtered. There’s no direct line. The church is a phone booth, the pastor the phone line and your tithes are the quarters you plunk in to get access.
They won’t “change” (pun definitely intended)
This is straight out of Gramsci. I was told the name of our upcoming “Dear Leader” (along with our influential external protectors).
Look at it this way. The wild-type coat color of sheep is dark. Over the centuries, sheep-growers have changed the preferred color to white through genetic manipulation. Thus, being or feeling like a black sheep is not necessarily a bad thing … in the world of sheep, it’s the real deal!
Charis,
Thanks for sharing your father’s example. I can only imagine knowing someone closely that made that type of choice, but then again, I don’t dwell in church leadership circles, so maybe there are others.
Years ago, when the church my family was attending was going through a change to embed men/women language in by-laws and make the church more Calvinist, a question was asked about a new pastor coming in right after the “dirty work” was done. The question was about one of the new pastor’s children and an “elder’s” answer was, “Look, he’s (the new pastor) only human.” My take of the experience: Men are human, women are subhuman, in that space/church anyway. Men can be logically and scripturally inconsistent, women need to step it up to their(men’s) interpretation of perfection and counsel, in that space/church anyway. There were others who immediately thought of slavery with the by-law wording change.
In the New Calvinist world, that is pretty much the case. In fact, one of their leading theologians, Bruce Ware, has declared that women are mere derivatives of men:
“It may be best to understand the original creation of male and female as one in which the male was made in the image of God in a direct, unmediated and unilateral fashion, while the female was made image of God through the man and hence in a indirect, mediated and derivative fashion.” – Bruce Ware
Megan Hill needs a dictionary with photos in the margins.
She’s confusing shepherd with wolves and sheep with lemmings.
Either that, or she thinks she can confuse other people (suckers)………. just like the rest of her kind do.
Maybe the flock needs a dictionary???
Ya know, Max …… I’ve been a thinkin’ ‘bout what Ware said concerning the creation of women ……..
If I bought into what he said whole hog, I’d be inclined to believe that women don’t even have souls, because we are not quite human, not r
eally made in the image of God.
And, if I don’t have a soul, what’s it matter how I behave……. or misbehave…… towards my husband, or anybody else for that matter???
Like Herrenvolk und Untermenschen?
“You will pass away, but they [your children] will remain Mine.”
— A. Hitler, cult leader
Other than pull down a paycheck and laugh all the way to the bank?
Now Nancy, settle down! Don’t you have okra to pick, green beans to can, clothes to hang outside, or something along that line?! Of course, you are fully human and have a soul! It’s these New Calvinists I’m worried about!
He: “I’m the boss and you’re nothing.”
She: “Nothing?”
He: “Yes, nothing.”
She: “Then I guess that makes you the boss over nothing.”
And now for something completely different:
Kenneth Copeland, richest televangelist in the world, has been dropped by TBN.
His replacement — wait for it — STEVEN FURTICK!
“WE ARE UNITED BEHIND THE VISIONARY!!!”
First heard of this today on “Telltale”, an ex-JW’s analysis/snark channel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMtBQKvxWcQ
Did a search on Copeland’s name and confirmed it.
P.S. Furtick in Telltale’s clips looks like Jayne from Firefly with an extra week’s growth of beard.
Well, if Bruce and his bros really believe that, then they should be able to understand all of their “derivatives”, whether women are saying, “I’m feeling…” or whether they are “directly” communicating, “No, that makes no sense. This is consistent.” Also, they should not need adoration/joyful submission. Rather, they would be irresistibly “winsome”(not)!
Had to look that up, but, yes, like that.
Ella,
There needs to be a mass exit of “derivatives” from New Calvinism!
Gram3,
OT
I saw some comments from you about the following subject on another thread. I thought you might appreciate this article I came across yesterday.
https://medium.com/@rasoolberry/critical-g-race-theory-the-promise-perils-of-crt-c5de933d55a1
I wonder if Ms. Megan really believes what she writes about … or is just trying extra hard to make New Calvinism work for her since she is so deeply immersed in the movement. She surely has her doubts about the mess after hanging out with the TGC crowd.
There is a different angle, Mr. Ware’s is not the only one.
Think of Woman as doubly refined, and not just assembled and animated from base components (dust of the Earth), and it puts a whole different spin on the creation of humankind.
Muff Potter,
Ware’s thinking is linear and does not take into account the curvature he tries to approximate with his straight line segments.
Well, I did say “If” I did buy Ware’s wares, and I don’t.
Nothing to can, or hang, or pick today. But I did make a double batch of fresh yeast rolls. Uhm, didn’t have anything to do while I waited for them to rise, so ……. why not rant about Bruce Ware? Makes me feel better!
Ava Aaronson,
Like!
MOD: Corrected your email in the comment. GBTC
In my experience, some are very bewildered that women might have opinions different from theirs and stand by them. Or not want to have anything to do with them at all. Because, of course, women are supposed to be these adoring robots that only exist for men’s pleasure…
Yum.
I made bread for the first time last week. I should try again today. I do some crafting and gardening, but I’m not a very good cook. In fact, in defiance of gender roles, my brother was always a much better cook than I was, even though he never really tried that hard and my mom didn’t spend as much time teaching him.
A homonym of the word for rib in Sumerian meant “life bearer”. (But the story is not particularly Babylon derived.) Adam and Eve were people who were in Eden from somewhere else. The story was the furthest back anyone remembered. The meaning “creation” got hung onto it as onto a prop or bullet point.
My wife and I are complimentarians. I made biscuits and gravy for breakfast today and she complimented me.
Max,
you’re so cute!
Genuine question: could some of the theologically astute regular commenters on here set out what they think is a reasonable biblical rationale for ‘pastors’ being ‘shepherds’ and what ‘pastoring’ or ‘shepherding’ might rightly entail?
(I feel so jaded by the misuse of such terms and the assumptions by many in the evangelical church regarding the remit of pastors, that I feel I need a corrective. What should healthy pastoring look like (without reference to 9 Marx!) or should the role of pastor (in the form we have come to know it) be abolished?
So where do all those comps (Ware, Burk, Grudem, et al) get all this happy-horse-poo-poo about ‘Biblical’ roles based on plumbing received at birth?
Jesus was a carpenter, not a plumber. He built a better house where there are no distinctions by race, class or gender.
Their own selfish desires?
I haven’t seen one man that has been improved by strict and heavy gender roles. I have seen a lot of men who follow those men who act like they know everything but couldn’t survive on their own for a week. Who throw tantrums whenever they don’t get their way in everything, even with other men. Who don’t know how to communicate or compromise or even listen to another human being.
I don’t think there’s anything of God in it.
Like perpetual toddlers in adult bodies.
Toddlers who have never heard the word “No” in their lives.
Makes you wonder if whoever wrote down the final version knew that Sumerian pun and put it in. After all, the name “Eve” – “Mother of All Living” – means pretty much the same thing. Maybe the storyteller/scribe knew that Sumerian pun and used the rib to echo the name?
“For the shepherd fleeceth every sheep he guideth with his rod.”
— Leslie Fish, “No High Ground”
Headless Unicorn Guy,
very apt!
Genesis 1:26-27: God said, Let us make human beings in our image….male and female He created them.
We, man and woman, are created in the image of God the Father, the Holy Spirit, and the Son Jesus. The three-in-one God created heaven and earth together. What is God’s image? It’s more than appearances or personalities or biological makeup! We are given the ability to think, to design, to create, to govern, to love, to hate, to discern, have free will to decide, to be friends with God/Jesus Christ, to be filled by the Holy Spirit,….In all these capacities and more, we bear God’s image together.
I ain’t seen a one either.
If anything, these guys are scared you-know-whatless of the primal power of women.
Rather than make women powerful allies, they insist on making them play second fiddle inside of manufactured boundaries.
Dimwits.
The Stepford Wives ………. I’ve watched Courageous, Fireproof, etc in the church fellowship hall ……. but I’ll betcha The Stepford Wives is one movie they’ll never show there!
I think all of the single ladies should watch both versions of The Stepford Wives!
The New Calvinists have yet to discover this truth. It’s so much easier for them to accept the derivative lie so they can subordinate women … which is an easy thing for them to do since they also subordinate Jesus to the Father.
And they’re running the church now!!
birdoftheair,
another bumper sticker for my car.
Scripturally, Jesus corrected the disciples who were focused on who was greatest amongst themselves. He pointed out how the disciples were not to be like the Gentile kings’ exercising rule and lordship over their subjects but as servants (cf. Matthew 20:25-29, Luke 22:25-27). Jesus notes that despite His exalted status, “I am in your midst as the One serving” (cf. Luke 22:25-27).
When the Lord washed the feet of the disciples, He explained a purpose in doing so: “Therefore if I, the Lord and the Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash the feet of one another. For I gave you a pattern, that as I did to you, you also should do” (John 13:14-15). Later, Paul told both Timothy and Titus that what they needed to be given their respective church responsibilities were examples and patterns to believers (cf. 1 Timothy 4:12, Titus 2:7.
In his first letter, self-described “fellow elder” Peter exhorts other elders, the presence of which indicates the writing occurred after churches had been established, along with the involvement of Silas/Silvanus (1 Peter 5:12). Like Paul, Peter references credentials for ministry (in this case, as “a witness of the sufferings of Christ” per 1 Peter 5:2) while advising in the next verse against “exercising lordship over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock”. The apparent reference to a special authority was to Christ as the “Chief Shepherd” (1 Peter 5:4).
Right before the close of his second Corinthians letter, Paul again references authority given him (Gr. exousian), with the context of using it “for building up and not for tearing down” (cf. 2 Cor. 13:10), echoing the plural description from 2 Cor. 10:8. As with Peter, authority given (power, etc.) to apostles was to be used to testify to the authenticity of what was being spoken and taught, as the Biblical canon was not yet closed. It was to be used as well to give examples to be followed which ultimately would pointed to Christ.
https://www.rawstory.com/2020/08/jerry-falwell-jr-submitted-his-resignation-to-liberty-university-after-being-outted-in-scandal-sources/
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
Boutdamtime
Accountability and oversight for the loss at a Christian-affiliated institution, with action only taken after scandals reach prairie-fire level
Romans 2:24 and its citation of an Old Testament verse is brought to mind once again: “As it has been written: “For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you.””
JDV,
Thanks for your thoughts, JDV – very helpful.
Servanthood…serving together/alongside…humility to the point of giving up status…using gifts for common good, not advancement of own interests…pointing always to Christ as chief shepherd/chief servant.
I also think that the Gospels in general are a good source for pastoral ministry. I have never known New Cal to talk much about Jesus’ ministry at all. And they often avoid Acts as well. Jesus was the total opposite of what we often think of as a religious or political leader. His example was one of giving up, serving, compassion, reaching out to the unwanted, and love.
I decided some time ago that I would not join a church unless I saw the pastors ministering to the unwanted and serving hands-on as they expect members to do.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
The Genesis stories – and even more so the earlier ones – were oral long before they were written. By Joshua’s time writing was as a training aid to oral proclamation. It’s possible that by Joshua’s time the overlap with “rib” was losing its currency.
Bridget,
I read it, and I’ll put a comment on the Open Discussion page so another thread doesn’t get derailed. 🙂
Apparently, to New Calvinists, the New Testament begins with Romans, not Matthew! They preach more about what Paul said than what Jesus is saying. Perhaps that’s because they are able to twist Paul’s words to make it fit their theology, rather than distorting Christ’s teachings. I advise YRR when I get an opportunity this way: If you read Paul first, you might read Jesus wrong … but if you read Jesus first, the writings of Paul come into perspective.
I have yet to hear a New Calvinist “pastor” preach Gospel Truth from the words written in red. But they will beat you to death with text out of context from the epistles.
It’s not just the neo-cals.
Go to any non-reformed fundagelical outfit, and you’ll find that they camp out on Paul just as much as they (generic they) do in any of the neo-cal venues.
ODP is closed. Berry’s essay is an interesting take, and he leads with his best point: Secular theories can offer insight into Christian thought. Though he offers examples of this general principle, he does not offer any specific example of a benefit of CRT to the church or to secular society. He fails to even define systemic racism. That is a big point of criticism. Is it whatever causes positive or negative variances of outcomes between white Americans and black Americans? Is it the presumed majority/minority power differential that exists wherever majority/minority exists? Something else? I would really like to know.
Another strong part of the essay is his recounting of the historical development of CRT. It’s interesting that CRT was developed by the legal academy as an explanatory model for a “rollback” of Civil Rights gains perceived in the late 70’s and 80’s. Is this rollback in gains also about outcomes? Berry does not say, but having lived through the period, I think I know. If the de jure Civil Rights laws did not result in equality of outcomes, then there had to be some invisible Cause that results in de facto inequality. And therefore we need a Remedy which the Kendi school and the DiAngelo school have prescribed for us. That seems to be the logic afoot here and what the panel of black scholars oppose. To jump to CRT is to ignore explanatory factors — internal and external to the black community — which contribute to persistent inequality of outcomes. It is also not permissible (it is racist or institutionally deemed so) to name those factors, so we forego the opportunity to correct them. I actually think that is one reason that some on the “right” and some on the “left” are happy to have the wallpaper of CRT so they do not have to deal with the fallout of some very bad decisions. End of editorial comment. Ignoring the actual problems is the real danger of CRT. I will defer, again, to the panel of black scholars who discuss these issues. They have more moral and intellectual authority than I do. Individually they also write extensively and represent a politically wide spectrum of views.
In addition, locating the solution in the power of white Americans eliminates agency from black Americans, thereby diminishing their humanity. They are not the social projects of white Americans. Where actual discrimination occurs, laws should be enacted or enforced, as in the Long Island realtor case he cited. No law is effective against racism, though thoughtcrime could be punished. Do we really want to go there?
From a Christian perspective, Berry is absolutely correct that God hates injustice. The Christian should oppose all forms of discrimination and hatred and oppression, but we don’t need CRT to inform us that any of those things are wrong and sinful, do we? I didn’t need CRT to know Jim Crow was wrong and unjust. Racism is a sin of the heart that needs to be repented of and forgiven. The church has Galatians and Exodus and Philemon and the Passion and Resurrection narrative. If our churches are not teaching that, then CRT is not the remedy for that! The church did not need CRT for abolition. MLK did not need CRT.
Berry also does not address his definition of justice and how that should be done. What is the remedy for injustice? Do we need more laws? Fewer? Redistribution? Is it Kendi’s remedy of more discrimination? against whites and Asians? Something else? I don’t know. He doesn’t say except that we are to explore what is on the CRT map somehow, somewhere.
It is interesting that Berry never cites anything specific that CRT offers to Christians that we do not already have. He does accuse the church of being responsible for the persistence of inequality. That is ironic, given the role of the church in Abolition and Civil Rights activism, and it strikes me as a cheap shot and manipulation. CRT does offer division and suspicion, much like the mis-translation of Genesis 3:16 does between men and women. That’s why I say it is toxic. It introduces more distrust rather than building trust and empathy in the church. I would teach empathy from Shai Linne’s article, as one example.
I’ll end with this quote from his essay: “Criticism of racial injustice is not the same as Critical race theory (and even CRT is not monolithic). Those of us who have experienced the oppressive force of institutional racism have learned how to gain insights from CRT and also reject the aspects that contradict a Biblical worldview.”
This is a great summary of his essay. I wish he had defined and specified his terms and experiences are. What are the specific and unique insights that CRT offers the church that exceed its toxicity? What specifically does he reject and why? What does justice look like? These are all important questions, and they shouldn’t be glossed over because he may have some very important insights to bring out that need to be heard. In the midst of social panics, people feel like we need to be Doing Something, and this feels like we are are Doing Something, and no one wants to feel like they are a bad person and not Doing Something. Well, better not to Do Something than to Do Something that causes harm. Social panics are like that.
ishy,
Thanks Ishy, Max and Muff Potter. Hadn’t thought before of how the Neo-Cal’s emphasis on Paul and dis-emphasis on the gospels and Jesus skews their take on what a pastor should be like. Jesus as the chief shepherd/servant should be the go-to example. Without Jesus everything becomes hard edged, legalistic, status driven and authoritarian.
Bingo! If/when a New Calvinist has an encounter with Jesus, everything changes. I would advise YRRs to walk away from their theology for a season and spend some serious time praying and reading the words in red. Without Jesus as the starting place, you can get off track quickly in any religious movement.
New Calvinists appear to have a mistrust of those expressing a personal Christian experience. They evidently prefer doctrinal propositions as the essence of faith, rather than an encounter with Jesus.
Why would they?
Their Theology is already Perfect; they already have God All Figured Out, Perfactly Parsed down to the keystroke.
And anyway, what can God do to them? They’re the Predestined Elect.
Is that because of the “GAWD H8S FAGS” clobber verse in Romans 1?
Reminds me of the attitude I’ve seen in some Furry porn artists (and their fanboys) about their imaginary critter creations:
Just human enough so it isn’t Bestiality.
Not human enough for it to be Rape.
– and not the real Paul either
Not at all. The New Calvinists have put words in Paul’s mouth.
In my mind, a graduate of a theology school who is 25 needs a couple of decades of work experience to learn how life works before they’re qualified to be a lead pastor.
Preferably in a line of work separate from working in a church. Study science, with math, to learn how the world operates as a functioning large organism with inter-dependencies…
The good pastors I have known had educations and worked in careers completely separate from their dedication to their religion, before they felt a calling and entered a theology school. I wonder that a reputable theology school would accept a 19 y o as a student! Oh, wait, can they afford to pay the tuition? Never mind!!