Mary Magdalene Crying
“After researching, reviewing, considering, and contemplating with continued attention; I have concluded that the beast is among us.” ― A.K. Kuykendall
Once again, (May God have mercy, my heart breaks), another sad story of young boys allegedly being molested in a church. As always, I believe the victims and stand with them. I am grateful that Boz Tchividjian is representing the victims. He truly cares about their pain. Christ Covenant Church is in Matthews, NC, a wealthy suburb of Charlotte. These sexual assaults took place in the 1990s, long before Kevin DeYoung arrived at the church. However, he will be left to manage the lawsuit. I will be following his response to the lawsuit. Will he express his concern for the well being of the young boys, now adults? Will the rest of the church members? Or will this be another battle of church members denying something like this could happen?
Update: (Special thanks to Anna Keith)WBTV posted Church sex abuse survivor speaks out as pastor acknowledges church’s past mistakes
A major Charlotte church has acknowledged mishandling reports of abuse made in the early 1990s by teenagers who alleged a volunteer youth pastor sexually assaulted them.
The admission by current church leaders comes decades after the abuse was first reported and nearly two years after multiple victims re-approached the church to reconcile what happened to them and were, at first, turned away.
Andy Gathings was one of those people.
Gathings, who spoke publicly about the abuse he suffered for the first time in an interview with WBTV, said he was assaulted by a man named David Wood.
Note this report about Kevin DeYoung’s statement.
DeYoung addressed the situation at a meeting with the church’s congregation in January.
“In 1997, a few years after the abuse took place, the mother of one of the victims told a Christ Covenant staff member what had happened. This staff member who has not been with our church for many years took the situation seriously and intervened in meaningful ways. He did not, however, report the allegations to criminal authorities. That was a serious mistake. We do not excuse it,” DeYoung told the church’s member, according to a recording of the address obtained by WBTV.
At the end of the speech, DeYoung asked the congregation to not speak with reporters about the information and to direct any other reports of assault by Dave Wood to him. He never mentioned calling police.
Note also these two comments from the report.
Two sides of the mouth:
There are things we could say to mitigate our responsibility, but the fact remains that this happened on our watch and for that we are horrified.
The typical *he wasn’t one of our hires.
David Wood was never a member of Christ Covenant, and the abuse did not take place at any Christ Covenant events.
If you. go to the post, you will see an interview with a victim.
In the meantime, any reader who may know of anyone else who was a victim, please contact the phone number at the end of this post. Please feel free to comment on this blog post as well. We are here to support any victims of sexual abuse, especially in churches.
1
Double sigh….
Sometimes these posts depress me as a survivor. The stories, whether new or old, follow a depressing pattern. The details absolutely must be aired, but things never seem to change.
But there is hope. Telling the stories builds strength and solidarity. Churches are choosing to safeguard members, or they are being forced to do so. Parents are wising up. As survivors realize they are not the only ones, they can heal, speak, develop insights, and grow stronger. I am grateful for TWW.
Please view the update above. Very helpful.
Why does DeYoung want anyone with questions or any other reports of assault by Wood directed to him?!@$%& DeYoung does not need to and should not vet any other possible victims. Anyone assaulted by this man should go directly yo the police!
I’m sick to death of church leaders wanting to be the vetting guy when it comes to sexual assault or abuse of any kind. Church leaders and Kevin DeYoung are not qualified to talk to assault victims!
Hey Kevin De Young…
Back in 2018 I volunteered to lead a session at T4G and the session would have consisted only of chanting “CALL THE POLICE” for an hour. Obviously you didn’t take me up on my offer, because I was an obnoxious female protester. But if you’d had someone lead a session of “CALL THE POLICE,” you might not have done this:
I’m going to be blunt here. When a pastor says not to talk to the press and then nothing about calling the police, his church is *unsafe*. Period, end of story. And I strongly suggest to anyone at DeYoung’s church to GET OUT.
All you T4G poobahs and obsequious followers really do need to take an hour out of your next get-together to spend an hour chanting “CALL THE POLICE” regarding child abuse. Tired of this nonsense.
Any word on Mr. Woods current location and vocation?
Yes.
Report/halt the predator operating in the church to Law Enforcement.
Call out/defund the leader$hip that enables & conceals the predator.
Leave/disenfranchise the church body that enables & supports the predator + enabling “leadership”.
End predation in the church. Dismantle church as a Hunting Ground.
Jesus overturned the predators’ tables with determination, anger & rage.
Sue the predator, the leadership, the church, for damages.
Look out predators, leaders, church boards, funding church members, here come the lawyers. Jeff Anderson of Anderson Associates famously said the only way to stop church as the Hunting Ground was to hit church in the only place they feel it – their pocketbook. He has been proven correct. Many times over. Subsequent to church lawsuits & eventual bankruptcies, Church as the Hunting Ground is finally slowly overturned.
Andy Gathings is more than a victim or survivor; he is a witness of evil. He has the evidence. “It was calculated the way he [the predator] got to the kids,” Gathings recalled. “There were a lot of things that he did to sort of groom me.”
Calculated. The predator in church, his Hunting Ground.
Question for self-identified church-going Christians: What Hunting Ground do you attend, do you $upport?
The mob targets witnesses. Hit men (could be a woman).
The church targets witnesses:
– gaslighting
– shaming
– denying
– ghosting
– “healing”
– diagnosing (“mentally unstable”)
– trolling
– disbelieving
– “theologically” assessing
– ignoring
– patronizing (“I’ll pray for you”)
– pitying
– shunning
A witness holds a position of power – the power of evidence. Anything that diminishes that power by targeting the witness as anything less than a powerful witness is a hit, an attack. The attack or hit is to protect the mob and their mob activities, which in this case, happens to be the church.
Jesus was a witness and a target.
More:
– questioning (Jesus was cornered & attacked w/weaponized questions often)
– sealioning (discovered via the TWW Rules: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning)
– discrediting, any which way they can
– devaluing (“Just a kid”)
– diminishing (“It only happened once”)
– insinuating (“What was she wearing?”)
Sidenote:
Good is simple: report, defund, disenfranchise.
Evil is complicated: as the above list of targeting tactics & wrangling demonstrates.
We still see JD Greear refusing to do these things, despite all his “emotional” responses about Caring Well last year. The SBC was taken to task, made it all a big show instead of a genuine change, and now they deserve lawsuits.
I don’t know if anyone else has seen this, but some people in my local area are telling people not to get tested for covid or have their families tested if anyone is showing symptoms, because they don’t want the hassle of having things closed because of people being diagnosed with the virus. I saw one person tell people they shouldn’t even go to the hospital if they are very sick and just “deal with it at home”. Their main reasoning for this is some parents don’t want their kids at home anymore and people testing positive will cause the schools to close.
It occurred to me that this is exactly the kind of thing Grace Community will do when their outbreak comes (because it will). Tell people not to seek testing or medical treatment, so they can appear as if God was protecting them from the virus. Knowing them, they might even threaten church discipline to those who do, though I doubt it will stop everyone in a church as big as that. And there’s probably a lot of people that attend there who are not members and can’t be threatened with discipline.
From the statement provided by the church to WBTV: “ David Wood was never a member of Christ Covenant… David Wood was brought in to work with youth at the church…”
Notice the use of the passive voice: “David Wood was brought in…” Not “WE brought David Wood in…”
Why is it important to emphasize that the perpetrator was never a member? What does that matter in light of the fact that the church is the one who brought him in / recruited him in the first place?
Membership doesn’t confer special powers to fight off sin or temptation. But being brought in by leadership does confer a certain level of trust and respectability that’s not automatically granted to everyday pew-sitters.
According to the WBTV video of the NC offender site. Wood currently lives in Durham, NC.
Kevin DeYoung reportedly authored the statement below which was published on the Gospel Coalition website in 2013.
DeYoung wrote, “This statement reflects the views of the signatories and does not necessarily speak for other Council members, bloggers, and writers for The Gospel Coalition.” only after several TGC members vehemently protested that they wanted it made clear this statement did not represent their views.
The statement contains factually incorrect information which has never been corrected.
The statement was signed by Don Carson, Kevin DeYoung and Justin Taylor. None of the men have retracted their support of C.J. Mahaney.
========================================
“May 24, 2013
Don Carson, Kevin DeYoung, and Justin Taylor
Why We Have Been Silent about the SGM LawsuitWhy We Have Been Silent about the SGM Lawsuit
Over the past several months we have remained publicly silent about the lawsuit filed against Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM), which alleged a conspiracy to cover up sexual abuse.
Many have asked why we have not spoken publicly. Is this a conspiracy of silence, a way to whitewash accusations against a friend? Is it a way to stand with the powerful and to make a mockery of the weak? Is it simple cowardice? Why hasn’t more been said?
What We Did Not Intend to Communicate
We recognize that to some, our not speaking up feels like a betrayal, especially to those who have personally experienced abuse. Understandably, people want to hear that Christians categorically deplore and despise sexual abuse. We recognize that on this painful subject inaction can be hurtful and perceived as uncaring.
It needs to be said in no uncertain terms that the actual acts alleged in the lawsuit are utterly evil—an offense against a holy God and an act of hatred against innocent children. They are horrifying and revolting. Apart from repentance, they are damning. There is no excuse, at any time or in any place or for any reason, for the use of children for sexual pleasure. Pastors who learn of such abuses should contact the appropriate authorities immediately, institute church discipline, and apply the whole counsel of God (including both law and gospel). Every church should have a clear child protection policy, and in every situation of abuse the victims must be assured that they are not responsible for the crimes committed against them. Furthermore, pastors are responsible to obey all mandatory reporting laws, alerting law-enforcement officials and fully cooperating with all investigations. This is not an alternative to church discipline and gospel counsel, but a necessary and complementary role of divinely instituted civil authorities.
The Conspiracy Theory
Over the past several months we often weighed the idea of writing a statement like this. Every time we concluded that caution was the better course. It is generally unwise to make public comments concerning a civil case that is being considered for trial or currently under deliberation. But now that most of the complaints filed in the SGM Ministries civil lawsuit have been dismissed, it seems an appropriate time to explain our silence and some of our thinking behind it.
We have not read the ruling of dismissal from the judge because, to our knowledge, it has not been made public. We do not know whether the plaintiffs’ attorney will file further charges. The legal back and forth may continue for some time. But we have read the explanation offered by the plaintiffs’ attorney regarding the statute of limitations in a civil suit:
We (the victims and the lawyers) all knew about the statute issue at the outset. But fighting for justice means doing so even against known obstacles. We had a conspiracy theory to overcome the statute but the Court rejected it. . . .
This is a revealing comment, as it indicates the legal strategy behind the civil suit. (And note that this was a civil suit, not a criminal complaint. While they certainly believe crimes were committed, this lawsuit itself was only seeking monetary damages.)
The plaintiffs’ counsel in the Sovereign Grace case knew that it could not proceed solely based on the allegations of abuse, given the statute of limitations. (Some of the alleged abuses occurred 25-30 years ago.) The statute of limitations is not a “legal technicality” but rather an important feature of our judicial system. The plaintiffs’ counsel therefore alleged a wide-ranging “conspiracy theory,” hoping that this would overcome the legal requirements regarding the time between when the alleged crimes took place and the filing of the civil lawsuit. This is apparently what the judge dismissed, determining that it would not even proceed to a trial. If you listen carefully to the attorneys’ explanations of the case on radio programs and other venues, they essentially acknowledged that they had no proof of a conspiracy. As the motion to dismiss points out, although C. J. Mahaney is named as an individual defendant, “the sole allegation against him in the Complaint is that he founded Sovereign Grace Ministries (“SGM”) and is currently its President. . . . He is not specifically identified or alleged to have performed any other act or omission throughout the 143-paragraph Complaint.”
So the entire legal strategy was dependent on a theory of conspiracy that was more hearsay than anything like reasonable demonstration of culpability. As to the specific matter of C. J. participating in some massive cover-up, the legal evidence was so paltry (more like non-existent) that the judge did not think a trial was even warranted.
Would it have served anyone to take to the blogosphere to express our legal opinion about the conspiracy allegations before the case was decided, much less before it even went to trial? Would it have changed anyone’s mind? Would it have helped the case itself in any way? We deemed it wiser to let an impartial judge rule on whether the case should be considered, making a determination based on all the facts available.
Another reason we have remained silent is because we have detailed charges from one side, but essentially no defense from the other side. Scripture warns us about what often happens in such a situation: “The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him” (Prov. 18:17). Can anyone say with certainty who is innocent and who is guilty in these multiple allegations spanning several decades? This is why we have courts, and why the Bible calls us to prudence. If we must denounce and separate from everyone or every ministry facing serious allegations, any one of us could be publicly ruined in a matter of days by nothing more than accusations. High-profile Christians are sometimes targeted not because they are guilty, but because they are well known. While those who are shown to be guilty should be exposed with rigor and with tears, surely as brothers and sisters in Christ we must understand how much gain there is for those who hate the gospel when Christian leaders are unfairly attacked and diminished. We agree with the Heidelberg Catechism that obeying the ninth commandment requires more than telling the truth; it means we do not “join in condemning anyone without a hearing or without a just cause.” Instead, “I should do what I can to guard and advance my neighbor’s good name” (Q/A 112).
Please do not hear us saying that we assume all of the plaintiffs are lying. We do not assume all the defendants are innocent, or that they are all guilty. We are not privy to the sort of information necessary to make that determination. Where the allegations are accurate, we have nothing but the deepest sympathy for the victims, desiring that legal justice might prevail and that they might know the Lord’s healing and vindication. And where allegations may be false or misconstrued, we sympathize with those whose reputations have been unfairly tarnished with no public recourse. This is a tangled mess. It is enormously complicated, with multiple allegations at multiple levels over multiple years, with multiple amendments. Which is why if a case were to go to trial, it would involve hundreds of hours of evidence and deliberation by an impartial judge and jury seeking to discern the truth and to bring justice to bear. Discerning the full truth is not always a simple matter, and it does not seem to us that blog posts and tweets are the best medium to serve the cause of truth. In hindsight we still believe restraint has been the wiser path.
The Face of the Lawsuit
There are two other facts that may be germane to this discussion: (1) some have tried to make C. J. Mahaney the “face” of the SGM lawsuit, and (2) we are friends with C.J.
Reports on the lawsuit from Christianity Today and World Magazine (among others) explicitly and repeatedly drew attention to C. J., connecting the suit to recent changes within SGM. He has also been the object of libel and even a Javert-like obsession by some. One of the so-called discernment blogs—often trafficking more in speculation and gossip than edifying discernment—reprinted a comment from a woman who issued this ominous wish, “I hope [this lawsuit] ruins the entire organization [of SGM] and every single perpetrator and co-conspirator financially, mentally and physically.”
We are not ashamed to call C. J. a friend. Our relationship with C. J. is like that with any good friend—full of laughter and sober reflection, encouragement and mutual correction. He has regularly invited—even pursued—correction, and we have given him our perspective when it is warranted. While the admission of friendship may render this entire statement tainted in the eyes of some, we hope most Christians will understand that while friends should never cover for each others’ sins, neither do friends quickly accept the accusations of others when they run counter to everything they have come to see and know about their friend. We are grateful for C. J.’s friendship and his fruitful ministry of the gospel over many decades.
Conclusion
We are not in a place to adjudicate all the charges leveled against Sovereign Grace Ministries or the specific individuals named in the lawsuit. The purpose of this statement is not to render a verdict on the charges, nor in any way to trivialize the sins alleged. We realize some will construe this post as confirmation of their worst suspicions, but we trust most of our brothers and sisters will be able to consider our explanation with an open heart and a fair mind. Our silence was not decided upon lightly; neither was our decision to break this silence. Our prayer is that one day—and please, Lord, soon—all who face injustice of any kind will see the Lord bring forth his righteousness as the light, and his justice as the noonday (Ps. 37:6).
Don Carson
Kevin DeYoung
Justin Taylor
This statement reflects the views of the signatories and does not necessarily speak for other Council members, bloggers, and writers for The Gospel Coalition.
Don Carson is president of The Gospel Coalition. Kevin DeYoung is a Council member of The Gospel Coalition and blogger at DeYoung, Restless, Reformed. Justin Taylor blogs at Between Two Worlds.”
Why isn’t the lead pastor (Harry Reeder, currently at Briarwood Presbyterian Church) being questioned about his role in covering up this scandal in the 90s? He should give account for this.
I can understand the *suggestion* of not speaking to the press.
NOT calling the police is NOT an option.
Calling the police must ALWAYS happen.
Speaking of TGC, this is what they posted today:
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/churches-battle-form-christians/
By now I should no longer be surprised by the level of control over pew-peons that this movement assumes is good for us.
The flawed logic in Kevin DeYoung’s request to have victims come to HIM & their lawyers first is beyond the pale. Churches are not qualified to investigate ANY crimes. Would you allow a church to investigate a murder?
They want all the info so they can prepare their defense…that’s it. A large church in DFW had a case where a children’s ministry volunteer molested a child. The pastor asked the parents for the child’s counseling records, and the reason he gave them (and I quote): “So we can evaluate what our liability is here.”
I wish I could disclose more about this, but the parent is not ready to come forward yet.
How many times do Wartburgers have to say when it comes to sexual abuse by church staff (current or past): “Don’t call Pastor … Call 911!”?! These are crimes to be reported directly to civil authorities, not church leaders. Vetting by church pastors/elders is not a good idea … remember Paige Patterson and his “Break her down!” technique.
Pastors/elders themselves are mandated by law to report such crimes, not to interrogate victims or abusers. We’ve seen time and time again that there are church leaders who desire to make it all go away and endeavor to council those impacted by crimes under their watch rather than advise them to call 911, or do so themselves. Pastoring victims can come later – abusers need to be dealt with NOW! Interrogating church members is not in a pastor’s job description (except perhaps the bad-boy 9Marxist New Calvinists).
New Calvinists don’t “form” Christians … they “re-form” them. COVID has produced an atmosphere where those being indoctrinated by reformed theology have an opportunity to escape the spell being cast over them. They need to seize the day and run! There is freedom in Christ … don’t sell your soul to the New Calvinists.
Survivors and witnesses should freely choose whether to speak to the press. Pastors and other church authorities should not do anything to silence or intimidate them.
Where would we be without the Spotlight team at the Boston Globe? That first story was published in 2002. Those survivors were BRAVE. At first, some Catholics did media interviews accusing the survivors of all sorts of things. Slowly the horrible truth emerged. Without a robust daily newspaper, the RCC sex abuse scandal would never have come to light, and neither would stories from the SBC, IFB, non-denominational, and many other churches.
That column gave me a needed laugh. The real danger of the worldwide covid-19 pandemic is that people have more time to look at their phones and TVs.
TGC also suddenly realized that churchgoers are only in the building 2 hours a week or less. Golly, when did that happen? A couple of centuries ago?
I am absolutely missing church (mine is still voluntarily closed out of concern for local public health). But the pandemic did not turn me into an irresponsible consumer of media.
TGC’s next pew-controlling article will probably be a list of online sites to avoid … TWW would most likely be on that list 🙂
I’ll admit I might be slightly addicted to Animal Crossing, but I’ve actually attended church online more now that they are closed than all of last year.
Maybe the next time our church has the Blessing of the Pets, they will learn how to cross themselves. 😉
These are guys who run a blog empire. They don’t care about overuse of media, just not people reading anything not written by them.
There would be no New Calvinist movement without cyberspace. The new reformers have mastered social media and the blogosphere to lead countless souls astray.
“In 1997, a few years after the abuse took place, the mother of one of the victims told a Christ Covenant staff member what had happened. This staff member who has not been with our church for many years took the situation seriously and intervened in meaningful ways. He did not, however, report the allegations to criminal authorities. That was a serious mistake. We do not excuse it,”
Somebody needs to tell Kevin that if the abuse was not reported to authorities, the staff member did not intervene in meaningful ways.
Max,
It is quite obvious that “pastors” such as DeYoung, think they are above the law, or maybe more correctly state that their “theology” is above civil law, and they have a G$d given “right” to “Shepard” their flock before civil authorities can.
Pastor MacAuthor seems to think that… he invoked the “serve G$d over man argument ” in saying his church should have pew peons without masks even the civil authorities say otherwise.
I “felt” this growing up in my fundamentalist church/school growing up, but in practice most of the time they deferred to “civil authorities”, but they still would make comments to the effect that these “civil authorities” were “fallen/corrupt”… which was, effective, undermining the credibility of the civil authority.. I have no proof that they actually advocated actively undermining civil authority which is EXACTLY what DeYoung is doing, and Page Patterson did years ago…
Wow Ishy! Haven’t heard that one.
As for the statement, i’m not happy with ‘This staff member [cutoutmealymouthedCYA] took the situation “seriously” and “intervened in meaningful ways”.’
But didn’t report. What are the odds the ‘meaningful’ intervention was to hush it up and pass the buck?
I live in the town where Kevin DeYoung was a senior pastor prior to moving to North Carolina. At the height of the Sovereign Grace scandal, DeYoung invited Mahoney to preach. That gesture said volumes about DeYoung’s support of Mahoney and his heart towards Sovereign Grace victims.
Same. I was already hopelessly irresponsible. It’s how I found TWW.
Mine is also still closed, but i don’t think i’ve watched any more tv now than i did before. It’s always been an ‘after work and workout’. Maybe a little since i don’t have as many plans for drinks or whatever out after work…
Tina,
The problem is, as was the case with the RCC, they had undue control of the police, and were able to squish investigation of the RCC. This is not new, local, and even National police forces, are always susceptible to political, financial (and in the case of the mafia, violent) pressures. Hence the need of a messy free press.
And, unfortunately, the cover up of sexual “issues” by church leaders, in my opinion, is so serious that the use of a “messy” free press is justified. Remember, if church leaders would “do the right thing” the use of the “messy free press” would not be needy…
My work has been closed since March and will likely remain closed until after a vaccine has been released. People like TGC have no right to tell me or anyone else what to do with their time in any situation, but particularly a situation of extreme duress.
TGC theology has all the signs of a cult. Their theology has nothing to do with God and everything to do with controlling others for their own benefit.
When you believe that your movement is the one true church, called forth by God for such a time as this to restore the one true gospel to the church, you get to thinking that you are superior to everything and everyone around you. New Calvinism spawns and nourishes such folks. It’s the stuff that cults are made of. Without the reformed movement, folks like DeYoung would not even be on the radar screen in the American church. They are reveling in their popularity and power as the upper crust of God’s elect.
Clearly we need more testing, not less. For a state/territory to know whether it’s identifying enough cases, the percent of positive test results should be 5% or below. As of today, 35 states are above 5%, according to Johns Hopkins.
I haven’t seen efforts to discourage testing here. However, I see otherwise loving families driving one another co-co-nuts as the months go by. This seems to be creating some “enthusiasm” to reopen schools. The nationwide loss of education is staggering, imho.
Also very serious is loss of earnings, especially for women who now oversee remote learning while trying to hold down a job. Job losses are affecting women more than men: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/06/30/unemployment-rate-is-higher-than-officially-recorded-more-so-for-women-and-certain-other-groups/
I don’t disagree. But my point was tying it to Grace, which is abusive, imho. If they tell people not to get tested, not to go to the hospital if they are very sick, and that they will church discipline those that do, they deserve to be arrested and for a whole lot of people to sue them.
I am certain they would do something like this. The police have announced an investigation and possibly arresting Macarthur for his “protest” by reopening his church and telling people they shouldn’t wear masks. I watched a video of one of their services, and Macarthur stays away from others. He wants others to be pawns in his protest, but he is the safest person in the building.
I’m sorry about that and i absolutely agree with you! It’s none of their business what you do with your free time. I’ve been working from home since march (give or take a few weeks) so this whole thing hasn’t resulted in a ton of extra free time except for cutting out my commute. and some social events.
Max,
Unfortunately, you are probably correct….. it could really be an issue of plain old arrogance…. which, if you look at the big picture of the fall, is the same….
the serpent said, G#d does not want you to eat the fruit because:
“ ye shall not surely die: For G#d doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as g$ds, knowing good and evil” ( Genesis 3:4-5)
Clearly DeYoung thinks he can “Advise” pew peons better than police that deal with sexual abuse as a profession..
Lea,
“This staff member who has not been with our church for many years took the situation seriously and intervened in meaningful ways.”
But didn’t report. What are the odds the ‘meaningful’ intervention was to hush it up and pass the buck?”
+++++++++++++++
“seriously”…”meaningful”….yeeeaaah…
reminds me of the time i went to a bible study and we were discussing how much time we had been able to devote to the material that week.
“well, i got started, and it looks really great,” i said.
“you mean you didn’t crack the book,” someone replied.
.
.
christians are great truth-stretchers and -embroiderers. all for the glory of God, of course.
And now they are telling us it would be better to die than skip church.
https://thecripplegate.com/it-is-better-to-die-than-to-skip-church/#more-224524
… which is the primary descriptor of New Calvinist leaders. I have yet to hear anyone describe them as humble. Love is another word that doesn’t pop up when characterizing the new reformers.
C.J. Mahaney had to resort to calling himself humble, since no one else did. He even wrote a book “Humility: True Greatness” … give me a break!
Holy cow. I read that. The legalistic lack of understanding about what “church” really means is scary. And this guy is a missionary?! Terrifying.
Well, his group encouraged a 21-year-old who had never dated to write a book on how bad dating was…
… and after Joshua Harris kissed dating goodbye, he kissed Christianity goodbye! New Calvinism will drive you out of your spiritual mind if you hang around it long enough! Just look at all the darlings of the movement who have fallen.
Max,
Cognitive dissonance is a real thing..
It wasn’t his fault – it was predestined. He could not do otherwise.
People who smoke knowing smoking can cause cancer is one thing … but preaching/teaching faith in God while not believing it yourself harms more than your life.
“If this teaching or movement is merely human it will collapse of its own accord” (Acts 5:38)
Yep, and a whole lot of the gospelly celebs made their way to speak at Mahaney’s run-away church plant in Louisville.
Joshua Harris wrote the foreword, then when Harris failed to fully back Mahaney in the sexual abuse scandal the Humble One jettisoned Harris’ foreword and had Mark Dever write a foreword for the book. (This was prior to Harris announcing he was no longer a Christian.)
Todd Wilhelm,
Thanks for the background on this, Todd. New Calvinism has assembled some of the most egotistical folks that ever hit church … all of them competing for top of the mountain. Pride cometh before a fall.
While not this extreme, I’ve been disappointed to notice a trend in our current church of focusing on Sunday morning gatherings to the exclusion of everything else.
Spring classes and studies were cancelled, unless the teacher(s) took it upon themselves to continue via Zoom. Fall classes and studies suspended indefinitely, “until we can meet again.”
What I find encouraging is that “church” is continuing in spite of this. Group texts springing up to check in, give encouragement, share frustrations and humor and prayer. Small, socially distanced gatherings taking place in parks and on hiking trails. A Bible study meeting in rotating backyards when told they couldn’t meet in the church parking lot.
I dearly love “church” and being a part of it (most days). However, I am not going to loose any sleep over missing Sunday morning.
Wild Honey,
“While not this extreme, I’ve been disappointed to notice a trend in our current church of focusing on Sunday morning gatherings to the exclusion of everything else…..
I dearly love “church” and being a part of it (most days). However, I am not going to loose any sleep over missing Sunday morning.”
+++++++++++++++
This seems a good time to remind people of this upcoming training GRACE is providing on Facebook.
GRACE Live Conversations: Reporting Essentials
Saturday, August 22 at 2:00 PM Eastern Time
Facebook Live
My understanding is that it can be best to call someone in the sexual crimes investigation department rather than the front desk of a PD or Sheriff’s office. When do we call CPS vs law enforcement and what about when the statute of limitations is long past? I’m eager to learn more.
Also, this kind of law suit should make Menlo Church sweat regarding previous abuses they covered up. Too big to sweat seems to be the mega-mantra.
good grief, i forgot to type anything
let’s try this again:
———–
Wild Honey,
“While not this extreme, I’ve been disappointed to notice a trend in our current church of focusing on Sunday morning gatherings to the exclusion of everything else…..
I dearly love “church” and being a part of it (most days). However, I am not going to loose any sleep over missing Sunday morning.”
+++++++++++++++
i’ve thought for at least 20 years that a church service is not a good use of time & other resources.
that it’s kind of an exercise in the ‘appearance’ of something important, but doesn’t amount to much.
that’s it’s all kind of pretend. Like ‘let’s play house!’ when i was a kid, but instead it’s “let’s play christian!”
i’ve wanted to devote my time and energy in doing things that matter, rather than the sit-stand-sit-stand-listen to someone talk…. and talk…… and talk….
i mean, so what??
anyway, i’ve been thinking for the last many years that the church service is living on borrowed time. it’s days are numbered.
i wouldn’t be surprised if the covid social distancing situation speeds this along.
it would be a net gain, not a loss, as i see it. instead of a focus on receiving as the big event — to locus of all the Godpoints — a switch to something more horizontal, giving out to others where we live, instead of all in the church-house.
….i’m having a hard time focussing… husband’s watching Discovery Channel, daughters’ playing The Beach Boys (they think they discovered them and are letting us in on it) — so i’m sure i didn’t express all this as well as i could have.
elastigirl,
like a tail mutating off. because it’s no longer all that needed for survival.
(like patriarchy, homophobia, racism etc. are mutating away because not only are they not needed for survival of the species but they impede survival — not that change in these areas is anything but deeply complex)
(how i see it at least)
– fashion parade
– families sitting together with the Good Look
– social networking opportunities
– business networking opportunities
– big tithers recognition & a nod from leadership on stage
– staged entertainment
– coercion from platform to get on board with the latest fundraising
– recruitment for church volunteerism & service
– formulaic presentations to push “build” or “buy” (i.e., pastor’s plane)
– pledge drives, tithing, covenanting
I don’t disagree. But I think there are two factors. One is whether or not Christians gathering together makes a difference in growing in godliness. If it does make a difference, what should it be like to best make that happen? Maybe it is like training for a particular skill. For example, a person who wants to be a great musician will have to take time learning to play an instrument – there is no way to obtain skill without regular practice. But given that the practice is needed, it must be with the right insteument, such as practicing on a piano rathet than a tuba if the goal is to play the piano well.
I think one can make a strong case that there is value in Christians assembling to grow in godliness (what used to be called theosis). But I think many parts of the church are practicing on the wrong instrument, which makes it mostly useless.
A lot of people only want to go to a service where they are mostly passive, and I think that is a huge reason for how most Western services are run today. Paul talks about different people offering something to the service and not limiting who, which makes me think that early church services were never this passive.
I absolutely think one pastor speaking for 45+ minutes was never a good model. That’s just a recipe for people checking out, no matter how good the speaker is. And most speakers can’t even realistically have content for an hour. I visited a church last year with an hour long sermon, where the pastor just repeated himself in different ways the last half hour. It also puts nearly all the emphasis on one person, which is what I think has been the worst thing for churches in recent history. It’s how personality cults are built and maintained. I don’t see how those people are really making it about God, no matter how much they claim it to be so.
Theosis is a wonderful idea, although the phrase “grow in godliness” might too easily lend itself to church discipline and dress codes.
For me, the benefit of church is sharing the worship service with a community and perhaps some visitors. During illnesses, I have had clergy visits with Communion, but it’s not the same.
General comment: The liturgy binds the group together. The space and time, set aside for worship. The hymns, prayers, sermon, and readings. The corporate confession and absolution. Congregational worship reminds me that God is here for us and also for me. It shows me my neighbors, and reminds me of duties to serve. And I deeply miss it right now, but am waiting until we can gather more safely, without putting our community at increased risk of covid-19.
Many churches today still look like churches. Most clergy do not have their own aircraft. If you want to go to church, but don’t like the one you have been attending, look outside your own tradition.
Be bold, and check out the church that your own pastor has been demonizing. You might be pleasantly surprised. 🙂
Ken F (aka Tweed),
“I think one can make a strong case that there is value in Christians assembling to grow in godliness (what used to be called theosis). But I think many parts of the church are practicing on the wrong instrument, which makes it mostly useless”
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Yes, i do think there is value in getting together with others in spiritual practice and pursuit.
i like this instrument analogy. in my observation, the church service is about the leaders.
-a big enough job duty to justify a career, a paycheck.
-a big enough event to motivate people to donate their money.
-a big enough event to justify the big expensive auditorium that sits empty the rest of the week.
-a vehicle for checking off ‘biblical’ boxes to justify the institution and its professional
christians.
.
.
radition and custom for tradition and custom’s sake. it matters not if it’s effective or helpful to anyone.
i think generally professional christians do these things with good intentions. but it’s hard for me to believe they’ve really thought things through in a sober, objective way.
my conclusion here is based on more experiences and observations than i can collate and present at the moment.
I don’t like the 45 minute services either, but i think most people in our current system are at least involved in the singing part of the service? Im at a mainline, so we have short sermons with songs and readings, but not spontaneous discussion time, which is maybe what you’re thinking of?
I do think if you have something like a sunday school there is a lot of room for participation. Does it need to be worship where people are involved or are these really artificial distinctions *just musing*
That jumped out at me, too. “Took the situation seriously”? By whose estimation? If this staffer didn’t contact the authorities, then no, he didn’t take it seriously. He simply failed the victims.
I led worship and sang in choirs for 20 years. A lot of people are hardly engaged in even the singing part. Participation is better at charismatic churches I’ve been to, but in both Baptist and Methodist settings, people are barely singing or just look bored during singing or recitation.
I don’t think it’s necessarily the particular content, but the rote nature of it. I’ll be honest, even in the choir, there were people on their phones the entire sermon.
Never mind an hour. Blinkers, it used to be “sermon series”. Take a point and beat it to death for 6 weeks. Don’t know if that’s a common practice or not.
I found that happened at the Pentecostal Church I attended. Not so much the mainline church.
To be fair, it’s got to be a challenge to come up with different speaking points.
For most sermons I remember the point was reached in 10 minutes. I was usually gone mentally after that.
Lol, one of my last services I attended, I got woken up by an usher. It was time to hang it up at that point.
To me it can feel way too much like a club meeting. What’s the point? My Dad complains about responsive readings, but that at least requires some active participation.
From everything I’ve been able to find, you are correct. In my musical analogy above, if our task is to learn how to play the piano well, many churches make us watch videos of people playing the clasics while we watch but don’t touch. Probably because it takes a lot of patience to listen to someone learning to play. Also, it’s much harder to maintain control if pew-peons are required to do more than passively follow directions on when to stand, sit, sing, color, etc. One of my pet peeves is being told “you are dismissed” at the end if the service. It would be more correct to acknowledge this up front.
I’ve been doing that, but have not yet been able to find any without one significant drawback or another. The common denominator appears to be me.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
“Blinkers,…”
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is that like criminy, blimey, jiminy christmas, holy smokes, for the love of mike, good gawd, etc?
i like it. i’m adding it to my list of go-to words for all audiences.
The Eastern Orthodox purposefully have very long services because it takes all of us some time to get out of our daily grinds. I very much like their services, except that all their rich traditions feel more like weighty and unforgiving obligations to me. I have both an irresistible attraction and repulsion which seems to keep me at a fixed distance.
elastigirl,
sorry – “blinkers” came from here:
Jack,
At the very least it’s Buzzword Bingo.
In the words of the prophet Alfred Yankovic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyV_UG60dD4
My church phrases the Dismissal (formal announcement of service’s end) this way:
“Mass is Ended. Go in Peace to Love and Serve the Lord. Thanks be to God.”
In old Latin, it was a simple “Ite, Missa Est.”
Headless Unicorn Guy,
i dare someone to play bs bingo the christian edition at a church service. yelling “bingo!” is a requirement, following by a victory walk back up the aisle and out the building.
With liveried flunkies blowing long trumpets before him to announce how HUMBLE he is.
Uriah Heep (the Dickens character, not the band) with a PR “Consultant”.
Rank Hath Its Privileges.
Like Calvin when the plague swept Geneva, Too Important to The Cause to Risk.
“If we don’t test, we won’t have as many cases.”
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Weird Al captures not just corporate buzzword BS, it fits most “institution leadership” these days. I can barely sit and listen to verbal diarrhea that comes out of leaders mouths these days.
Why?
I do understand that you are completely turned off by shallow worship experiences and probably some awful treatment. Your experience and response are legitimate. Church should not be shallow. It should never be ___ for ___’s sake. Worshipers deserve skill and sensitivity. Church should not waste people’s time.
But what if it’s deep? What if it’s meaningful? What if the preaching is thought provoking? What if people do benefit? What if they are then inspired to go out and do good things in the world—repair their intimate relationships, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the imprisoned? What if they don’t know their neighbors, but enjoy the semi-anonymous camaraderie of sitting in a pew for an hour, nodding hello, maybe meeting someone new? What if the church has a book group, or a painting or needlework group that they’d like to join? What if they love old furniture and would like to offer to repair the lectern? What if they are grief stricken and have nowhere to turn? What if they want to get married in a church? What if they are curious?
What if it’s not all bs bingo? Would that be ok?
Friend,
yes, it would be great. i’m very cynical, and attempting some humor. what you describe is light years away from my experiences in many churches/denominations.
I don’t entirely disagree. Iv’e attended services that have felt like giant performances. Other times, something said in a sermon or a prayer was exactly what I needed to hear. For me, a very rough analogy is exercise, or eating healthy foods, or reading the Bible. I do them (well, except exercise) out of habit because I trust that in the long term the accumulated effort will be good for me. Do I have an “ah-ha” moment every time I read scripture? Nope. Or an epicurean delight every time I make a meal? Nope. But the good ones keep me going through the mediocre or worse experiences.
That being said, there’s always room for reflection and quality improvement. If a new recipe is awful, I toss it. When a family member got a medical diagnosis, we altered our eating habits. How I did daily scripture reading had to change significantly when I had kids in order to be able to get back in the habit.
Also, I don’t go around telling everyone they have to make meals EXACTLY like I do to be considered chef-like.
But yes, in echo of someone else’s comment, I am so over the cult of personality. It’s nice and shiny, but too fraught with danger. Can anyone say “idol”?
Thank you. I appreciate your reply, and I appreciate you.
One thing I mean by interaction is putting these things actually in the service. Go serve at a soup kitchen for one service. Pray in small groups for another service (maybe with some guided themes). Sort clothes for the local donation station. Let different people speak about what God is doing in their lives. Just eat together. Include short messages related to these things and maybe a song or two that is directly tied to what everyone is doing.
We separate so much of life from “worship” that I think worship becomes meaningless to the rest of our lives, even if a service does have “good” preaching. People walk out and don’t remember it an hour later and don’t incorporate it into their lives.
They don’t remember what?
That is a very appropriate way to end the service, and it is still done in many mainline protestant denominations. The non-liturgical denominations seem to be unaware that their non-liturgy is so repeatable that it is actually a liturgy. Just like their non-creeds have become defacto creeds. I find I now much prefer the more historical liturgies and send-offs.
ishy,
“Go serve at a soup kitchen for one service. Pray in small groups for another service (maybe with some guided themes). Sort clothes for the local donation station. Let different people speak about what God is doing in their lives. Just eat together. Include short messages related to these things and maybe a song or two that is directly tied to what everyone is doing.”
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ok, i could get back in the church groove with this kind of thing.
in my whole ‘church career’ (attending, volunteering), everyone is so worn out by the Sunday service there’s not much energy left. the preparation beforehand, the day of… for what? like has been mentioned already, 10 minutes later it’s all forgotten.
not time well-spent.
indeed, let’s actually do things that make a difference where all get to participate.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
“even if a service does have “good” preaching”
But Kevin!
Wasn’t getting married and having kids supposed to cure everything? Dude, where’s your bride? Remember that?
I’m willing to bet you and your buddy are married with kids. Where’s that maturity you talk about in this situation? But you and your buddy there are sooo much better than those rebellious unmarried reprobates, yes?
Kevin, how does it feel to have your own words come back to haunt you?
The churches that appear to be really big on “let’s open up NOW no matter what the state says” (and no matter that the closest secular analogues, movie theatres, remain tightly closed) all seem to have one thing in common. They all seem to be independent operations with one man rule. It is my suspicion that tithing receipts are down and people are spending their Sunday mornings snoozing on their couches rather than watching their pastor on Facebook, YouTube or Zoom.
Also, this effort appears to be an attempt by some churches to appear that they’re being persecuted. No, you are not being persecuted. Especially when the closest secular analogue, the movie theatres, remain shut. There are workarounds and they’re pretty darn effective workarounds. (Trust me, I know from workarounds. You would not believe what some people call a workaround. It’s *scary*.) It’s just that the One Man Show guys don’t have their congregations in front of them so they can harangue them and ask for money.
Really, if your pastor is telling you to go to church in person, you ought to think twice. This is a person who does not have your best interests at heart. All you’re proving by defying the law is that you are lawless. And is this really the kind of impression Christians want to give?
Decades ago, I remember reading about some 14th century English king who, on feast days, might spend five hours at a high mass. Do you think he paid attention the whole time? Why no! And it was expected that the only time he would pay attention would be at the consecration. All the time around that, he was dictating documents, talking with his nobles, dealing with affairs of state, and so on.
One has to remember that in Europe during the Middle Ages, it was rare for a Catholic layperson to take communion more than once a year, usually at Easter. So it’s not like the king had to shuffle up to the altar rail with everyone else and kneel, because 99 percent of the time, the service didn’t include distribution of the bread to attendees. And another thing…there were a LOT of feast days in the medieval period, and lots of churchgoing, where people sat in the pews and talked, said their rosaries, prayed, etc., etc., and this was way beyond Sundays.
During my time as a lay-preacher, I observed many such melancholy faces in the pews … half looked like melons – the other half looked like collies.
ishy,
With sermons I find less is more. No one remembers long sermons. But people tend to remember stories and word pictures. By today’s standards, Jesus was a terrible preacher because he never preached an expository sermon. Neither did any of the Apostles as far as we know.
Things might have livened up if they looked like bacon and collies.
YES.
A couple years ago, I realized I was getting so caught up in having a clean and efficiently run household that I was losing sight of the bigger picture – raising my children to be independent and emotionally stable adults. The challenge is, as a goal-oriented person, having a clean and efficient household is so much easier to quantify (clean floors, punctual to appointments) RIGHT NOW and to tell whether I’m doing a good job or not. Parenting? Maybe I’ll know in another 20+ years whether I did an ok job or not.
I wonder if pastoring a church is similar. Worship services are much easier to quantify (how many people came, how many compliments about the sermon, how many baptisms, etc.). But the bigger pictures of encouraging people toward loving God and loving one’s neighbor? A lot slower growth process, not a clean trajectory, and a lot harder to quantify. There’s not the instant gratification of knowing whether a job was well done.
“(if you know what I mean!)”
If Christ Covenant “brought” David Wood in to work with youth, then Davie Wood was seriously and factually a member of Christ Covenant. What, employees or volunteers working for a church aren’t members of the church? That’s wrong, a fabrication, a lie.
If your church is a hunting ground for a sexual predator, you are as guilty as anyone else for the predation that happens on your watch. You need to do something, if it’s just leaving that hunting ground to the people not willing to leave.
Thank God I don’t have kids to live through the climate change catastrophe, dodging sexual predators at church, striving to live in a time of war and hate…
aka a “one man show”…