Part 2: The SBC’s Credentialing Committee and The Executive Committee Along With Steve Bradley and Germantown Baptist Church Have Done Nothing for Jules Woodson. Did They Ever Intend To?

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Highly sensitive people are too often perceived as weaklings or damaged goods. To feel intensely is not a symptom of weakness, it is the trademark of the truly alive and compassionate. It is not the empath who is broken, it is a society that has become dysfunctional and emotionally disabled. There is no shame in expressing your authentic feelings. Those who are at times described as being a ‘hot mess’ or having ‘too many issues’ are the very fabric of what keeps the dream alive for a more caring, humane world. Never be ashamed to let your tears shine a light in this world.” ― Anthon St. Maarten


A victim quoted in the SBC’s Caring Well Report

I believe God has allowed the curtain to be lifted so those in authority could SEE, WEEP, LAMENT, REPENT, and CHANGE. I pray that within the power and structure dynamics of the SBC, you will lead out in SPIRITUAL ways, not in corporate modalities. I pray you will seek the face of God for wisdom for the way forward, that you will have courage beyond what you could imagine to take right action in the face of difficulty or those who are stuck in the ways of old.

The SBC Caring Well Initiative was going to *Do Something.* It didn’t…

Those were the good old days… The SBC 2019 Convention in Birmingham. JD Greear weeping tears for those abused. Victims were featured, so long as they didn’t implicate anyone in the SBC as having sexually abused them.

They quickly produced a warmed-over document called Caring Well to be sent to the churches in the SBC. Lots and lots of churches got it and lots and lots of churches ignored it since they had already done what was in the report, so. they claim. I had one pastor of an SBC megachurch who told me he wasn’t going to tell me what they did with the report but did admit he received it. I talked with a megachurch which is attended by Christa Brown’s abuser. After I confronted him about the abuser, they removed one of his posts on their website. I was told that they did not feature him at the church but then I proved that they did. Boy, that Caring Well document really made a huge difference.

The SBC even featured a person who reported me and another, well-known, respected woman to the police. (Yes, she reported our names specifically. The police didn’t discover it in some forms.) That individual appears to be quite odd but at least she isn’t in the SBC or was abused by anyone in the SBC so she’s golden. Ministry Safe seems to love this sort of person as well.

As far as I can see, the Caring Well was a bust but the SBC can show it off and claim they *did something.* So, how is this attitude reflected in the committees tasked to deal with sex abuse in their member churches?

The Credentialing Committee has produced NOTHING since they were established.

Let me put a name in here so this gets personal. Everyone knows that Jules Woodson was sexually abused as a high school student by a pastor in her church. The pastor admitted it. Another pastor who was told of the incident by Jules stepped down. However, the guy who apparently thinks he is the leader of that church, Steve Bradley, refuses to speak to Jules and continues to lead his very important large church, Stonebridge. Jules was told she would hear nothing unless they were going to declare a church *not in friendly cooperation. Needless to say, nothing has been communicated. Actually nothing has been said about anything. Dead silence…

This committee told Jules to submit all of there documentation which she did although her situation was documented by media all over the world. They spoke on their task in their Statement of Assignment.

Recently, the Convention has heightened scrutiny in two significant areas of concern— discriminatory behavior on the basis of ethnicity and sexual abuse. The Credentials Committee bases its decisions regarding a church’s standing in the SBC based on who that church puts in a leadership role as either an employee or volunteer. Neither the Convention nor its Credentials Committee has authority to declare an individual not in good standing with a local church. Church membership is solely under the guidance and governance of each local church. The Convention has no authority over any local church, however, it retains its sovereign right to determine whether it deems a church to be in friendly cooperation with the Convention. If a church is deemed not to be in friendly cooperation with the Convention’s adopted statement of faith and practice, the Convention has the autonomous authority to declare it will no longer recognize the church as a cooperating church with the Convention and to sever its relationship with the church. Upon receipt of a submission, the Credentials Committee may inform the church of the concerns raised against it. If necessary to adequately garner the information necessary to fully vet the concern, the identity of the individual or individuals making the allegations may be shared with the church.

If a church is deemed not in friendly cooperation, the Credentials Committee will notify the SBC Executive Committee in accordance with its assignment in SBC Bylaw 8. After this assessment is made the following steps would ensue. The Executive Committee, upon the next scheduled meeting, will consider the recommendation of the Credentials Committee.

I looked for any indication that this committee has found anything or shared anything with the Executive Committee. Nada. It’s all very hush hush, you know. I’m sure victims are suffering when they see this lax attitude to the whole *assignment.*

Racism has been added as another thing for the Credentialing Committee to deal with. At first, I thought that adding this to their assignment was too much. However, I’ve changed my mind. They are doing nothing  so they may as well add all kinds of things.

They had plenty of time to deal with this, even during the Covid crisis. This sort of thing can be managed via the internet, Zoom, and phone calls. But they know this.

The Executive Committee is useless due to internal politics. Have you heard about this?

The SBC and factions…what a surprise… Theoretically, the Executive Committee should be kicking the butt of the Credentialing Committee. After all, Ronnie Floyd is being paid an incredible salary to *do something.* However, they have problems of their own. SBC Voices is the place to go to keep up to date on the weirdness that is the Executive Committee. Here are some posts interesting posts.

Let’s go get Russell Moore.

The SBC Deserves Better: Another Executive Committee Faceplant

But instead of acting for the convention, we got the opposite. Tuesday, during closed executive session, the SBC Executive Committee voted to create a task force to ‘review the activities’ of our Ethics and Religious Liberties Commission (ERLC). The creation of this task force constitutes a betrayal of the clear wishes of the convention as well as a betrayal of the duties of the Executive Committee.

Again and again the anti-ERLC and anti-Moore contingent have tried to get the convention to take action against the ERLC. Again and again they’ve been soundly, resoundingly defeated as messengers have raised their ballots.

This committee clearly is out for Russell Moore’s head.

Mike Stone, chairman of the EC, not only gets to be the chairman of the committee, he also gets to personally select all six task force members completely by himself.

…’ll tell you what I suspect this is about. It’s a power play in attempt to embarrass the ERLC & Russell Moore. For critics to be able to say “the ERLC is under investigation!!! So there MUST be a serious problem! (cue sinister music and a blurred shot of Rachel Denhollander). To make sure Russell Moore doesn’t say anything negative about Trump during election season (surprised the task force concludes in September? meaning its work will cover the bulk of election season?).

The Conservative Baptist Network took control of the Executive Committee and they have a different agenda. Shame on them.

How the Conservative Baptist Network Took Control of the Executive Committee. For those of you who’ve missed the formation of the Conservative Baptist Network, let me sum it up in a few words. Paige Patterson and his BFFs run it. They will deny it but everyone knows it.

The purpose is to let Southern Baptists observe how leaders of the CBN, the organization leading the push for a Conservative Resurgence, are operating within the Convention, particularly as it concerns its Steering Council members serving in positions of leadership on the SBC’s Executive Committee (EC) and how they are attaining those positions.

n the most recent EC meeting, the former Chairman, CBN Steering Council member Mike Stone, used his Chairmanship to ensure new EC leaders would include members of the CBN’s Steering Council, a group that wasn’t known to exist until, strategically, the day after the EC Officer and Chairman elections took place.

In theory, there is nothing wrong with a “Conservative Baptist Network.” But there is something wrong when a network exploits positions of leadership and bylaws to force agendas that undermine the spirit of cooperation under the BF&M2000. Networks are supposed to make the SBC stronger, not divided.

As it stands, six of the 48 individuals of the CBN’s Steering Council are also SBC EC members, and four of these are now serving as leaders of the SBC’s EC, while one is the immediate past Chairman who helped get them elected. The CBN achieved this mischievously and now has more representation on the EC’s leadership than non-CBN leadership.

So what does this mean for Jules and other victims? Politics have become the Number 1 focus and concern of the Executive Committee. By politics, I mean who is going to be the next President of the United States. Therefore, you can be darn sure that sex abuse, as well as racism, will not be discussed or dealt with. And that makes me sick. Shame on everyone involved in this mess.

I’m sorry Jules. They played a game with us and we took them seriously.

Do not trust Germantown Baptist Church or any SBC church which models the leadership in the SBC. They will do NOTHING.

The Credentials Committee, the Caring Well Initiative and the Executive Committee are modeling their behavior to SBC churches. Jules asked Germantown Baptist Church to remove Savage’s ordination. They responded just like the SBC committees respond. Germantown Baptist Church Response to Jules Woodson Request to Revoke Andy Savage’s Ordination: “No Comment.”

Frankly, it appears that few people in the SBC care about Caring Well. And in so doing, they cause further harm to victims.  Jules, I’m so sorry.

I would love to hear from some folks who think that the Caring Well Initiative did anything more than announce to the world that something would be done. It seems like a bust to me. I will not accept the Covid thing as an excuse.

Perhaps the SBC accomplished what they intended to accomplish. They got some media to write about all that they would do. Then, it was on to the next issue. I am so glad to have moved on from this dysfunctional organization.

Comments

Part 2: The SBC’s Credentialing Committee and The Executive Committee Along With Steve Bradley and Germantown Baptist Church Have Done Nothing for Jules Woodson. Did They Ever Intend To? — 167 Comments


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    3?


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    Jules Woodson is a witness to a pulpit pedophile.

    The rest of us following this case involving “church” enterprises are witnesses to Predator Enablers aka complicit Predator Partners who are the Get-away Car Drivers.

    The Rest of Us must hold Predator Partners accountable or we, too, are complicit Predator Partners aka also Predator Enablers.


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    Numero cinco?


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    I really don’t understand why this is so hard to do other than politics and not giving a darn. I am a nurse, if I get a DUI or something similar etc then it is reported to the stare board, investigated and decision is made. If you don’t agree to say, A and D counseling, not a problem, you loose your license to practice nursing. If a church doesn’t want to do what the committee says then should be dealt with. Do the right thing, help the victims and I think you will have credibility and things will go better. If a church leaves then let them. I would make sure that everyone publicly knows why they left, put that church on a website, for all to see. I really do believe if the women in the SBC would rise up in sufficient numbers and protest ( also read the riot act to their spouses) this could start the process of getting more teeth into this process. Why is it that secular women, whether pro choice,
    pro whatever can rise up in mass to accomplish their aims? What a righteous cause it would be to
    hold up people like Ms Woodson ( many men too, we have a responsibility of course ) and act for justice.


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    I am not surprised the committee did not do anything… the very fact that there are all these problems, for so many years, demonstrates that the “powers that be” do not want this “issue” dealt with. Just like the RCC has been So SLOW to deal with their mess..
    It is just “human nature”…. and indicates that the leadership does not demonstrate the “regeneration/new life” that New Testament says should be be the sign of Christ’s followers..


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    Want to make sure that the above doesn’t come across as sexist, but if the leadership which usually are men won’t do the right thing then someone has too step in and fill the void. I would love to have a round table discussion with the people , particularly the women of Germantown Church and ask why they won’t act, doesn’t this bother them etc. and see their responses. I am interested in their thought processes in all of this.


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    I’m not surprised, but I am disappointed that ultimately the Committees did nothing substantive regarding sexual abuse. It was too easy just to publish a program and hope it would all go away.

    Regarding the EC shenanigans, I think it is a little more complicated. It’s factional, but the factions are re-alignments that are interesting, particularly the way that the Founders bloc is fracturing. If what Voices described is correct, I don’t like the power play stunt in the EC. But that is the way that things have been done by Mohler’s guys (who are Russell Moore’s guys who Voices guys like) have done things for a long time. I don’t like that either because it is just power politics. It’s sickening how the real issues get tossed aside because of that.

    I really think that the underlying issue is their cognitive rigidity wrt Complementarianism, and it is something they will not let go of — any of them — and that is what blinds them to the sexual abuse issue’s importance. When they lost on ESS, they banished Owen (BHLH) to St. Louis and then pivoted immediately to race. Dever/Thabiti and Russell Moore anchor that for them along with SEBTS. And that, 2016, was the turning point, in my opinion. So, as I see it, the Moore/Thabiti/Dever faction champions CRT and the other Ascol faction opposes CRT but put out a crude video that insulted Rachel Denhollander. Both factions are a bunch of clowns. They all are incapable of being serious and dealing seriously and cooperatively with big issues like sexual abuse or real racial reconciliation because they are still stuck in their own circus.


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    Chuck,

    Yeah, but that’s because you work in a profession that has standards.

    And accountability.

    And that’s not open to any Bill or Tom who has “a vision”.


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    Chuck: I really do believe if the women in the SBC would rise up in sufficient numbers and protest ( also read the riot act to their spouses) this could start the process of getting more teeth into this process.

    This isn’t as easy as it would be in the secular world. One, there’s a lot of brainwashing that women shouldn’t act on their own. Two, many of their husbands probably oppose it and for some, they don’t have education or jobs or money to fall back on if their husbands decided to dump them over it.

    And most importantly, given the rise of cult practices in the SBC, there’s likely to be social repercussions like shunning, church discipline, harassment, and we’ve even seen churches sue or threaten to sue individuals for breach of covenant or speaking out (Harvest Bible Church comes to mind first). These tactics are similar to what is being used in scientology. Some SBC women might have the strength or resources to fight that, but many don’t, and the legal system often balks at dealing with these issues because they are religious organizations.

    Sometimes, you have to leave and be out for awhile before you can see how bad the system really is. In my personal experience, I didn’t even understand that some of the things that happened to me, like being forced out of seminary, was even what it was. It took several years of them refusing to answer my calls and emails before I realized that they were actively gatekeeping. I also didn’t understand much about their true theology at the time, such as their belief that women are not fully human like men ( http://powerscourt.blogspot.com/2008/04/bruce-ware-on-constitutional-inequality.html ).


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    ishy: This isn’t as easy as it would be in the secular world. One, there’s a lot of brainwashing that women shouldn’t act on their own. Two, many of their husbands probably oppose it and for some, they don’t have education or jobs or money to fall back on if their husbands decided to dump them over it.

    And most importantly, given the rise of cult practices in the SBC, there’s likely to be social repercussions like shunning, church discipline, harassment, and we’ve even seen churches sue or threaten to sue individuals for breach of covenant or speaking out (Harvest Bible Church comes to mind first). These tactics are similar to what is being used in scientology. Some SBC women might have the strength or resources to fight that, but many don’t, and the legal system often balks at dealing with these issues because they are religious organizations.

    Sometimes, you have to leave and be out for awhile before you can see how bad the system really is. In my personal experience, I didn’t even understand that some of the things that happened to me, like being forced out of seminary, was even what it was. It took several years of them refusing to answer my calls and emails before I realized that they were actively gatekeeping. I also didn’t understand much about their true theology at the time, such as their belief that women are not fully human like men ( http://powerscourt.blogspot.com/2008/04/bruce-ware-on-constitutional-inequality.html ).

    ishy: And most importantly, given the rise of cult practices in the SBC, there’s likely to be social repercussions like shunning, church discipline, harassment, and we’ve even seen churches sue or threaten to sue individuals for breach of covenant or speaking out (Harvest Bible Church comes to mind first). These tactics are similar to what is being used in scientology. Some SBC women might have the strength or resources to fight that, but many don’t, and the legal system often balks at dealing with these issues because they are religious organizations.

    ishy,

    I can only guess as to why the women do not rise up and revolt. My personal opinion is that it is not an issue for some and that those that wish to revolt know the history of the men that attempted to change things for women in the SBC.

    The men leaders of the SBC will never change IMO. They would have to admit they were wrong about women in the past and the next group of men SBC leaders will have the same views of women. It is beyond sad and women will continue to suffer!


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    Gram3: Both factions are a bunch of clowns. They all are incapable of being serious

    This pair of thoughts belongs in Proverbs, imho. 😉


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    Ishy:

    Sadly the leaders of the SBC will never address women issues. They would have to admit they have been wrong about women in the past, and I do not believe they are willing to do this.


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    “As far as I can see, the Caring Well was a bust but the SBC can show it off and claim they *did something.*”

    SBC appears to be in a state of denial regarding sexual abuse in its ranks. They are unwilling to accept the reality that such things could (do) happen in their churches … particularly that church pastors and staff could be (are) sexual predators. They only gave it a glancing look because of watchblog and media pressure … hoping that time would make it all go away, and that reporters would move on to other things. So SBC leaders cried without tears and penned resolutions to do better without really meaning it.

    “Racism has been added as another thing for the Credentialing Committee to deal with.”
    It took SBC 150 years … 150 years! … to repent of the racial sin which birthed the denomination prior to the Civil War (SBC founders were slave-holders). SBC hasn’t been in a big hurry to correct this great wrong.


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    In my efforts to keep our former pastor, a convicted child molester, out of SBC pulpits, I have found that “autonomy” prevents otherwise smart and kind pastors from doing anything. State and national SBC leaders lamented the situation, applauded me for my “brave” efforts to keep the SBC safe for children (never mind that I’m no longer in the SBC because they DON’T deal with abusers), but they wouldn’t actually do anything about it. They tried to talk some sense into the pastor who knowingly invited the molester (his friend and a regular attender at his church) to guest preach, but when that didn’t work, they were stuck. They offered to report the church to the Credentials Committee, but wouldn’t do anything to actually protect the children at that church right now. In the end, my friend who is braver than me gave an ultimatum to the pastor…”you inform your congregation about his criminal history or I will”…THAT was the only way those parents were informed that the nice old man in their congregation (who was given the honor of preaching) was a potential danger to their children. (More about this situation in the USATODAY article “Tongue of Fire”.)

    So the Credentials Committee gives the pastors on the “right side” of the issue another way to feel like they are doing something when they actually aren’t willing to get their hands dirty. Honestly, if it’s this hard to keep a CONVICTED CHILD MOLESTER out of SBC pulpits, I have very little hope that the SBC will deal properly with credible accusations.

    Somewhat related to Jules’s story, the one national leader suggested that I (ME, not HIM or someone else IN the SBC who knows a convicted child molester is making the rounds guest-preaching) try to get his ordination revoked by writing to the ordaining church. No thanks. It’s an independent Baptist church in another state that ordained him back in the 70s…And, in my experience, small SBC churches don’t give a hoot about ordination anyway.


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    “Let’s go get Russell Moore.”

    Moore is done … he just hasn’t quit yet.

    “… the Conservative Baptist Network, let me sum it up in a few words. Paige Patterson and his BFFs run it …”

    Patterson was forced to quit … but he’s not done yet.

    There is a spiritual leadership crisis within SBC.


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    Whistleblower4Jesus,

    Southern Baptist churches are always considered “autonomous” unless you call a Woman Pastor” or be (Gay friendly)-their words not mine. Other than that you can do whatever you want and you will not be challenged. What a sick system?


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    Gram3: Mohler’s guys (who are Russell Moore’s guys who Voices guys like)

    Yes, SBC Voices has been an effective tool in the hands of New Calvinists for years. They occasionally take a middle-road on SBC issues, but have been part of the underlying reformed movement to wrest control of the SBC from millions of traditional (non-Calvinist) members … they are not ‘their’ voices.


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    Max,

    Max:

    Voices is not referred to as Pravda for nothing. If your views do not line up with Dave Miller’s it is very unlikely your comment will be posted.


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    mot: Voices is not referred to as Pravda for nothing.

    Because of their promotion of the reformed movement in the blogosphere, they get to mingle with SBC’s New Calvinist big-boys at national conventions … not realizing that the big-boys don’t really give a big whoop about them – they use them.


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    Max: Because of their promotion of the reformed movement in the blogosphere, they get to mingle with SBC’s New Calvinist big-boys at national conventions … not realizing that the big-boys don’t really give a big whoop about them – they use them.

    Max: Do these guys have zero spiritual discernment? What are they doing to expand the Kingdom of Jesus Christ? Did seminary not do them any good at all?


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    mot: Did seminary not do them any good at all?

    Seminary is just like their blogosphere–a bunch of men who control the narrative, don’t allow outside voices, don’t talk about other views and theology, and a lot of self-aggrandizement. They only study Calvinism and each other and they go after anyone who reads or thinks outside the box.


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    mot: What are they doing to expand the Kingdom of Jesus Christ?

    The Kingdom of God on earth – in the here and now – and fulfilling the Great Commission don’t appear to be on the radar in much of the American church any longer. It’s all about building the kingdoms of men, where power and pet theology rule. The authority of Jesus is waning in the American church – His influence is becoming less and less.


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    ishy: They only study Calvinism and each other and they go after anyone who reads or thinks outside the box.

    A spiritual sickness.


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    Max,

    I have wondered out loud many times if those SBC leaders and Pastors that are Calvinistic or at least tolerate other Calvinists if they try to hurt these other folks ministries–cost them their jobs.


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    DID ANYONE REALLY EXPECT ANYTHING DIFFERENT?


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    Max: Because of their promotion of the reformed movement in the blogosphere, they get to mingle with SBC’s New Calvinist big-boys at national conventions …

    GROUPIES.
    Like teenyboppers throwing themselves into the beds of their Rock Stars.
    “SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEE!”


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    Max,

    That says it all to me…..the depravity of slavery, based on the “concept” that those of “African” roots are inferior is from the pit…. taking 150 years to admit it is more than disgusting…


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    mot: Sadly the leaders of the SBC will never address women issues. They would have to admit they have been wrong about women in the past, and I do not believe they are willing to do this.

    Never say never. There’s this funny little thing called conscience residing in all humans regardless of gender and it’s placed there by the Almighty himself. Sooner or later, one or two of these guys is gonna’ realized that yeah, we were wrong about women, and have been teaching this bull$|-|it for way too long.


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    mot:
    Ishy:

    Sadly the leaders of the SBC will never address women issues.They would have to admit they have been wrong about women in the past, and I do not believe they are willing to do this.

    How can you be wrong when (by definition) You Can Do No Wrong?


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    Gus: Chuck,

    Yeah, but that’s because you work in a profession that has standards.

    And accountability.

    i.e. a SECULAR, HEATHEN profession.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy,

    I have expected nothing decent of these SBC leaders in decades.


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    mot: I have wondered out loud many times if those SBC leaders and Pastors that are Calvinistic or at least tolerate other Calvinists if they try to hurt these other folks ministries–cost them their jobs.

    That’s essentially what they did with the institutions and how the SBC got taken over. They kicked out everyone and replaced them with yes-men (whether they were qualified or not).

    That included the department I worked in at NAMB, which had several women who were all replaced by men who’d graduated from SBTS.

    I would say that’s also what happened with IMB and all the missionaries they fired. They claimed there was a budget shortfall, but suddenly that amount of money showed up at NAMB the next year for planting churches in North America. Again, a lot of the missionaries that were fired were women. And now women are not allowed to be called missionaries, only “support staff”.

    All of these things happened outside the Convention and without the approval of the Convention, which is not how the SBC is supposed to work. Then they started doing the same with local churches.


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    Muff Potter: There’s this funny little thing called conscience residing in all humans regardless of gender and it’s placed there by the Almighty himself.

    No there isn’t.
    Not with these Mighty Men of GAWD.
    Sooner or later, one or two of these guys is gonna’ realized that yeah, we were wrong about women, and have been teaching this bull$|-|it for way too long.
    No they won’t.
    The Inner Ring trains you to be a Sociopath Who Can Do No Wrong.
    In the words of that Rabbi from Tarsus, “their consciences seared with a red-hot iron”.


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    Muff Potter,

    Muff:

    I hope that I am wrong. I have had decades of this SBC nonsense to become as cynical as I am-especially of their treatment of women. I say this as someone who left the SBC in October of 2018 after 44 years.


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    ishy: That’s essentially what they did with the institutions and how the SBC got taken over. They kicked out everyone and replaced them with yes-men (whether they were qualified or not).

    Ishy, I am sincerely sorry this happened to you. I will never be able to prove it but I believe lost my SBC pastorate over my support of Women in the Ministry. It has been 8 years ago and I do not regret it.


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    Muff Potter: Sooner or later, one or two of these guys is gonna’ realized that yeah, we were wrong about women, and have been teaching this bull$|-|it for way too long.

    I know some non-leaders that have, who ended up leaving the SBC completely. But I have yet to see a leader do so. The very first YRR I knew has completely left church and his mom posts “prayers” for her son to come back to faith. But of course, his parents still go to a New Cal church.

    I am not the most spiritual warfare thinking person, but talking to New Calvinists makes me believe in it. They can’t even answer questions in their own words. They just parrot other people even if what they are parroting doesn’t line up with the topic. That so much of what they do lines up with cult strategy, and nobody thinks to question that except on watchblogs like this one is really troubling. I think people are either afraid to admit there’s a problem or they are really afraid of the power they think these guys have.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy: No there isn’t.
    Not with these Mighty Men of GAWD.
    Sooner or later, one or two of these guys is gonna’ realized that yeah, we were wrong about women, and have been teaching this bull$|-|it for way too long.
    No they won’t.
    The Inner Ring trains you to be a Sociopath Who Can Do No Wrong.
    In the words of that Rabbi from Tarsus, “their consciences seared with a red-hot iron”.

    Hug: They would remove any man that goes against them. One or two will never be enough-it would have to be an all out revolt-aint going to happen IMO.


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    mot: Ishy, I am sincerely sorry this happened to you. I will never be able to prove it but I believe lost my SBC pastorate over my support of Women in the Ministry. It has been 8 years ago and I do not regret it.

    I wasn’t even in a ministry position, just computer support. But I absolutely believe they will go after pastors for supporting women in ministry. The very last SBC church I attended had a male “lead” pastor, but several women as pastors, including one as an executive pastor. The lead pastor is someone you probably have heard of and he is a traditional Baptist, not New Cal. But as the New Calvinists gained control of all the SBC institutions, suddenly he started removing all the women pastors from his church, though he had made pretty strong statements before of having believed women should be in ministry.

    I suspect there was pressure behind the scenes, maybe due to pensions or other support that that church couldn’t have women on pastoral staff anymore. And he wouldn’t stand up against it, even though he claimed he believed women should be in ministry. People would listen to him if he did, but I guess he thought the risk of losing his dream church was more than the women he served.

    I left that church kinda in the middle of that due to other reasons, but there were a lot of problems happening in that church kinda all at once, like mismanagement of groups and ministries. I look back at their website, and the whole staff is male now. I’m betting that a lot of those issues were from trying to change to please the new SBC leadership.


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    ishy: I left that church kinda in the middle of that due to other reasons, but there were a lot of problems happening in that church kinda all at once, like mismanagement of groups and ministries. I look back at their website, and the whole staff is male now. I’m betting that a lot of those issues were from trying to change to please the new SBC leadership.

    Has this churches attendance gone down over these issues?


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    Chuck,

    As a fellow nurse, I concur with you. However, the SBC claims each member church (called an in-fellowship with the SBC church)) is autonomous. SBC central has no power over them. Did you know that they could be declaredf *not in fellowship* but still be an SBC church? Frankly, they are useless even when they *do something.*


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    ishy: I think people are either afraid to admit there’s a problem or they are really afraid of the power they think these guys have.

    I think too, that a lot of em’ are afraid of where ‘they’ll spend eternity’ if they don’t knuckle under and hoe the row the way their masters tell em’ it’s gotta be hoed. And it’s not just the neo-cal outfits, you’ll find the same dynamic at work in the Calvary Chapel system.


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    mot: Has this churches attendance gone down over these issues?

    Hmmm, probably not, but one of the reasons I got so sick of that church is that they dropped many of their spiritual development programs in favor of outreach and welcoming committees. Everything became about stuffing the seats. The sermons were meh and had little meat. They were so keen on getting people in, but there was nothing for those people once they joined but getting other people in.

    When I started going to that church, it was pretty small and had a much bigger focus on discipleship. I do think there comes a point when churches “decide” to be a megachurch and then it all becomes about numbers, and that happened with this church. But there were also a rash of staff changes and dropping of classes and groups. It was frankly a mess. So people like me were leaving, but they were just bringing in new people who were probably going to leave in a few years. That’s kinda the pattern of the megas I’ve seen anyway.


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    Muff Potter: I think too, that a lot of em’ are afraid of where ‘they’ll spend eternity’ if they don’t knuckle under and hoe the row the way their masters tell em’ it’s gotta be hoed.

    Yeah, I find that thinking one of the great puzzles of the New Cal movement. Everything is already ordained, but of course, I’m saved. And I know who is and who is not by who agrees with me (let’s just pretend they don’t change their minds later). And that my theology actually says that no one can know if they are saved or not. God is all powerful but not capable of giving anyone a choice.

    The one thing I always liked most about free will theology is that is pretty simple, if nothing else.


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    ishy,

    It does seem to just boil down to this…. the Calvinist can say “ you just don’t understand”, but, they are just blowing smoke


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    Jeffrey Chalmers: depravity of slavery … taking 150 years to admit it is more than disgusting…

    “… Our relationship to African-Americans has been hindered from the beginning by the role that slavery played in the formation of the Southern Baptist Convention … Many of our Southern Baptist forbears defended the right to own slaves, and either participated in, supported, or acquiesced in the particularly inhumane nature of American slavery …”

    https://www.sbc.net/resource-library/resolutions/resolution-on-racial-reconciliation-on-the-150th-anniversary-of-the-southern-baptist-convention/

    SBC founders were Calvinists – pastors and deacons who were slaveholders. They felt that sovereign God was on their side in the Civil War, until early Confederate victories turned to defeat. After the War, Southern Baptists distanced themselves from the founders’ theology and remained distinctly non-Calvinist in belief and practice for 150 years … until Al Mohler and his band of New Calvinists came along to take the SBC back to its theological roots. Fortunately, the new reformers don’t oppress African Americans like their 19th century fathers – choosing to put their women in bondage instead through the “beauty of complementarianism.”


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    mot: I say this as someone who left the SBC in October of 2018 after 44 years

    Guess I didn’t have as much sense as you Mot! I left the SBC in 2019 after 70 years of serving as the Lord led. I patiently waited and prayed for the last 25 years, thinking that the SBC would return to the Great Commission … until it became increasingly clear under the New Calvinist reign that they weren’t going to.


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    OT: My mainline congregation has been closed since March to protect public health; we have far exceeded state and local standards. Today I received a well-designed email survey about the online services and potential future services in person, outdoors or indoors. A great deal of thought and sensitivity went into the questions. Some were multiple choice, and there were plenty of free-response boxes.

    Imagine! A church that asks people what they want and need, and even lets us say what we don’t like!


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    ishy: Hmmm, probably not, but one of the reasons I got so sick of that church is that they dropped many of their spiritual development programs in favor of outreach and welcoming committees. Everything became about stuffing the seats.

    With Tithing Units.
    “The Spice Must Flow.” — Frank Herbert, Dune


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    Friend: OT: My mainline congregation has been closed since March to protect public health; we have far exceeded state and local standards.

    Same here.
    Shutdown with Livestreaming for a couple months, then caution “reopening” with services held under pavilion tent roofs in the secondary parking lot. With all high-risk types (including anyone over 60) told to stay home and use the remaining Livestreams.


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    Muff Potter: I think too, that a lot of em’ are afraid of where ‘they’ll spend eternity’ if they don’t knuckle under and hoe the row the way their masters tell em’ it’s gotta be hoed.And it’s not just the neo-cal outfits, you’ll find the same dynamic at work in the Calvary Chapel system.

    Same dynamic in that End-of-the-World Shepherding Not-a-Cult I got mixed up in back in the Seventies.

    “FEAR ALWAYS WORKS!”
    — Acting Mayor Bellweather, Zootopia


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    ishy: I do think there comes a point when churches “decide” to be a megachurch and then it all becomes about numbers

    And taking a step back from “numbers”, it becomes “All About The Benjamins”.
    Must keep up with Ken Copeland and the Furticks, you know.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy: In the words of that Rabbi from Tarsus, “their consciences seared with a red-hot iron”.

    Chasing their endless antics and arguments or “theology” (i.e. SBC, Piper, et al) is a frivolous wild goose chase. Talk is cheap and a waste of time & energy.


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    One of the difficult lessons I had to learn interpersonally was when to realize that someone was not going not change. They had shown me who they were. I needed to stop expecting them to be different, and to treat them as they were acting, right now.

    I think this is a similar situation. We should stop expecting the SBC to do the right thing. They have shown us repeatedly who they are.

    What we now need is for people to accept that, and act accordingly. Many, many people are staying in SBC churches thinking that they can change things. I did this in several churches, for years, kicking and kicking and kicking and getting nowhere.

    Eventually I realized that I couldn’t change it. The church was built on a very different understanding of Jesus and Christianity than I had, and it was better to leave. It was so toxic I couldn’t invite friends. By staying, I was propping it up. I was making it more influential. I was paying (at least in part) the pastor’s salary.

    There are so many tiny churches filled with good people who are honestly following Jesus that would love for an influx of new members–not to take them over, as the dudebros do, but to worship together. What would happen if these tiny churches that knew Jesus were filled with others fleeing the denomination? Maybe it would be part of God separating the sheep from the goats. Maybe it would be a good thing.


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    Sheila: Many, many people are staying in SBC churches thinking that they can change things. I did this in several churches, for years, kicking and kicking and kicking and getting nowhere.

    Eventually I realized that I couldn’t change it.

    I resemble that remark!

    I eventually realized “Ephraim is joined to idols, So let him alone to suffer the consequences” (Hosea 4:17). Idols of teachings and traditions of mere men, idols of old dead guys, idols of ‘Christian’ celebrities. Very little of it having anything to do with advancing the Kingdom of God on earth.


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    Sheila: Many, many people are staying in SBC churches thinking that they can change things. I did this in several churches, for years, kicking and kicking and kicking and getting nowhere.

    And the New Cals were smart in that respect, but it required a complete lack of compassion for and interest in others. That’s why they went and took over from the top and not individual churches first. They were going to force their way and they were going make other Baptists accept their way whether they wanted it or not. Then they went to work taking over the local churches.

    I predict New Calvinism will disappear in the next 20-30 years as the leaders die out. They haven’t managed to sustain their movement enough in the younger generations to keep it going and have managed to anger enough people into leaving the SBC completely.


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    dee,

    Yeah, that is really odd. What is the point of disfellowshipping or whatever if it is still an SBC church. Good article about a sad subject. I wish people would stop letting these abusive pastors make a comeback.

    I noticed what I think is a typo: “to eat his very important large church, Stonebridge.” Seems like trying to eat a church would give one an awfully big stomach ache. 🙂


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    Jeffrey Chalmers: the Calvinist can say “ you just don’t understand”, but, they are just blowing smoke

    I think it is true that on one, not even Calvinists, understand Calvinism. Probably because there is no one official version of it. I don’t know of any self-identied Calvinist who will eventually appeal to mystery. So I think it is important to come to grips with where in the process that appeal should come. I suspect earlier is better than later.


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    ishy: I predict New Calvinism will disappear in the next 20-30 years as the leaders die out.

    Yes, the YRR dudebros won’t be cool then. A new generation will be dabbling in some other form of aberrant faith to continue taking the church farther off course. You won’t be able to recognize “Christianity” by 2050. And whose plan would that be?


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    Sheila: One of the difficult lessons I had to learn interpersonally was when to realize that someone was not going not change. They had shown me who they were. I needed to stop expecting them to be different, and to treat them as they were acting, right now.

    “He says he loves you. So…why does he do that?” by Lundy Bancroft


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    Ken F (aka Tweed): who will eventually

    I meant to type “who will NOT eventually…”


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    Chuck,

    “Why is it that secular women, whether pro choice,
    pro whatever can rise up in mass to accomplish their aims?”
    ++++++++++++++

    (this is old news, but) Christian woman have been conditioned that it is wrong for them to be outspoken, like the women of the evil worldly world do.

    evidence of being holy and a woman of God, having ‘come out from among them and be ye separate’, is being submissive and sacrificing your voice and assertiveness.

    this suits some women just fine — it is much more comfortable to stay in the background, stay where it is safe with no risks, stay in friendly accommodation and compliance.

    for many, assertiveness, the ability to confront, and speak one’s mind with people other one’s immediate family are things that have to be learned.

    christian women are not challenged to be bold, strong and very courageous. their ability to lead is not cultivated.

    and every human being is called upon to lead at some point in their life.

    christian culture does women a great disservice in these areas.


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    Chuck: I really do believe if the women in the SBC would rise up in sufficient numbers and protest ( also read the riot act to their spouses) this could start the process of getting more teeth into this process. Why is it that secular women, whether pro choice,
    pro whatever can rise up in mass to accomplish their aims?

    I think it is a bit more complicated than this, but appreciate your confidence in the abilities of women to rise up.

    I was reading an article about women suffragettes. How many years did that take? (Susan B Anthony died without seeing women have the right to vote. She was in her 80s.) How many women protesters were jailed, beaten, force-fed (a brutal procedure), raped in the process? While churches aren’t (thankfully) able to employ these tactics, there are other ways of pushing down women protesters in churches.

    I don’t want to run afoul of the politics moderator, so will be generic. You mentioned secular women rising up to accomplish their aims, wondering why church women can’t “just” (my reading of your tone, sorry if I misunderstood) do the same. While I am only speaking for myself, I think there are many areas in which women are still attempting in the secular world to “rise up” unsuccessfully, as well, even though there is a lot more equality than in, say, Susan B Anthony’s lifetime.


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    ishy: Hmmm, probably not, but one of the reasons I got so sick of that church is that they dropped many of their spiritual development programs in favor of outreach and welcoming committees. Everything became about stuffing the seats. The sermons were meh and had little meat. They were so keen on getting people in, but there was nothing for those people once they joined but getting other people in.

    This sounds like some multi-level marketing companies, where the emphasis (and the money) is in recruiting, not selling the product. It’s uncanny how similar this is.


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    Wild Honey,

    I was talking to someone last night and reflected that all through the Nineties, Scientology was golden in the eyes of the government and the press, despite what we (the few exes and the more extensive free speech nuts) did, which mostly involved protesting. Even then, we didn’t know how truly awful it was inside Scientology. It took Tom Cruise jumping on Oprah’s couch in 2005 and then telling Matt Lauer (yeah, yeah, yeah) a few months later that he knew more about psychology and antidepressants than Brooke Shields, who had just disclosed her post-partum depression. It was 2008 before “Anonymous” showed up in front of Scientology orgs to protest.

    Leah Remini left at the beginning of the 2010s due to the way the leader’s wife was just packed off to (and still is in) hiding in 2006. Remini didn’t publicly discuss Scientology until 2013. Her bio came out in 2015, the same year that the HBO documentary “Going Clear” came out. But regular, generally accessible information about Scientology didn’t really start until “Scientology and the Aftermath” hit cable TV in late 2016. It’s been kind of a golden age since then, but it took 22 years of just plugging along, hoping against hope that something would catch fire and get people’s attention to get from Helena Kobrin trying to squash a Usenet group with an “rmgroup” to Leah Remini’s TV show. That’s a long time.

    One of my friends, just a few years younger than my mom, hopes to live long enough to see Scientology as the first “religion” laughed out of existence. Me too, Keith, me too.


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    Max: SBC Voices has been an effective tool in the hands of New Calvinists for years.

    With the exception of William Thornton, they define cognitive rigidity, and it frightens me that they are caring for souls. William, I suspect, has been around enough blocks to have been humbled by the experience. But, they are a window into the thoughts of SBC pastors. Scary though it is. That said, I have had some great and godly pastors in the SBC and non-denoms. But that was in the past, sadly. I know they are out there still, but I just don’t know where to find them in all the noise.


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    Max: After the War, Southern Baptists distanced themselves from the founders’ theology and remained distinctly non-Calvinist in belief and practice for 150 years …

    It would be an interesting study in the history of theology in the American churches to assess whether there was a link between the defeat the of the South and the move away from predestinarian soteriology in the SBC. It seems plausible that there could be a connection — not a happy thought that God decreed first the rebellion and then its inglorious failure.


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    Max: Moore is done … he just hasn’t quit yet.

    Really? He has re-invented himself several times already. Started out as a politico in deep Red Mississippi. Then he was a seminary mentee of the great Mohler. He wrote a paper for ETS back in 2007 or so saying that Complementarianism should more properly be called Patriarchy because that’s what it is. Candor. That’s what we love about him. Now that he’s gone all DC and in the company of the Beautiful People, he’s not so patriarchal any more, and he’s a fan of Beth Moore. The Patriarchy boys are not so happy with him, but ESS was so 2016, and we have moved on! And Russell Moore v.2016 was Blue and a Social Justice Warrior! With no rational explanation. You can’t make this stuff up. I was thinking about saying something about keeping up with chameleons on crack in a modern art museum. But that only applies to politicians and never to theological characters.

    I so love a man with enduring principles.


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    Gram3: I have had some great and godly pastors in the SBC

    Me too, but I have to go back 40 years … you knew them by their love … the more recent bunch ain’t scaring the devil much.


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    Gram3: I just don’t know where to find them in all the noise

    Look in places which are not so noisy. The genuine ministers and ministries still in SBC serve the Lord primarily in obscurity.


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    Gram3: He has re-invented himself several times already.

    I wish he had re-invented himself out of SBC years ago. Moore is a pawn in the hands of Mohler.


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    Max: It’s all about building the kingdoms of men, where power and pet theology rule.

    Yes, I believe this is the truth. You and I are seeing this from the end, and Ishy is witnessing this from the younger perspective. I’m not speaking for either of you, But I agree with what you both have said so far. Their paradigm is power and only power. That is why they will not tolerate any dissent. Complementarianism is Power Theology. Critical Race Theory is Power Theology of a different kind. Both of these disregard the reconciliation bought by the blood of Christ and perpetuate the enmity brought by sin. They can’t tolerate dissent because their systems are really quite fragile. They’re fragile precisely because they have been guarded from dissent and have not been tested. Everything, and I mean absolutely everything, is scripted and programmed. Top down. It isn’t like it was in the old days when we could open the Bible with our study tools and go to work. And I do mean work. Now everything is spoon fed from the Pulpiteer. That is a power play, and it isn’t what is portrayed in the text, which is what the SBC purports to follow. Of course, that is also the fault of the lazy pew peons who like to be consumers and not producers. So there’s that. But it doesn’t excuse power plays by leadership, especially at the very top.


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    Samuel Conner: It would be an interesting study in the history of theology in the American churches to assess whether there was a link between the defeat the of the South and the move away from predestinarian soteriology in the SBC.

    In regard to SBC, I suppose one could make that case by examining pre-War and post-War sermons, speeches, Baptist newspapers, etc. to compare what Southern Baptists were saying and how their belief and practice changed.

    Bruce Gourley provided some insight into this in his book “Diverging Loyalties: Baptists in Middle Georgia During the Civil War.” SBC founders definitely had some strong views about God’s will for the African race … it took an awful war to change the minds of some of them.


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    Gram3: They can’t tolerate dissent because their systems are really quite fragile. They’re fragile precisely because they have been guarded from dissent and have not been tested. Everything, and I mean absolutely everything, is scripted and programmed. Top down.

    It also means that they aren’t training leaders to take over. They’ve trained a bunch of people to follow their cults of personality, but not to lead. And their lack of morals and compassion, along with their hatred of pastoral accountability, has resulted in some very high profile ministry failures. There will be more who will hurt the flock. They can’t sustain their movement.


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    elastigirl: Christian woman have been conditioned that it is wrong for them to be outspoken, like the women of the evil worldly world do.

    “godly” = silent = feminine = lovely


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    Gram3: Complementarianism is Power Theology. Critical Race Theory is Power Theology of a different kind. Both of these disregard the reconciliation bought by the blood of Christ and perpetuate the enmity brought by sin.

    SBC New Calvinists don’t talk about the blood of Jesus in this regard. Their “Power Theology” leaves little room for Power of the Blood … for the Cross of Christ and what it purchased for ALL who believe. It doesn’t fit the predestination model. Only those who themselves have not been reconciled to God through Christ would think this way.


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    ishy: They just parrot other people even if what they are parroting doesn’t line up with the topic. That so much of what they do lines up with cult strategy, and nobody thinks to question that

    That is my experience in approximately the past 15-20 years especially. No one will question the leaders, especially the Big Names. I don’t know if this is a generational thing or not. Maybe I’m just cranky. At our most recent former church, the younger people did not ask many questions. Very odd.


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    ishy: I predict New Calvinism will disappear in the next 20-30 years as the leaders die out.

    And good riddance.


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    Gram3: Complementarianism is Power Theology. Critical Race Theory is Power Theology of a different kind. Both of these disregard the reconciliation bought by the blood of Christ and perpetuate the enmity brought by sin.

    Complementarianism is a simplistic Christian “theology,” and I share your assessment.

    Will you please say more about why you equate complementarianism with critical race theory? As I understand it, critical race theory is a school of thought unaffiliated with religion, independent of Christianity. Are you saying that it’s incompatible with Christianity? What would make it so?


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    ishy: And the New Cals were smart in that respect, but it required a complete lack of compassion for and interest in others. That’s why they went and took over from the top and not individual churches first.

    Well, yes, it was a hostile takeover except they didn’t bid anything. It was all covert, so they were even more clever than we give them credit for. The SBC is an enormous going concern with huge assets. Not to be crass, but I usually bottom-line it, and it just seems to me that the Calvinistas have been about that from the beginning. I might have believed otherwise if there had not been certain intervening events. Evangelism? Nope. They ran the IMB off the rails and mismanaged the NAMB. But big salaries and perks for the execs.

    I don’t think Complementarianism for most of them (because their arguments are so tortured) is a principled position, and I think they will abandon it as soon as a critical mass of the younger cohort gets squishy on it. In other words, as soon as seminary applications decline and the prestige and position of the seminary presidents is threatened. Similarly, I think the embrace of Critical Race Theory by those in SBC leadership who are promoting it is not a principled one but is due to the aesthetic of the post-millennial or Gen-Z cohort. In other words, the Bigs have done some analysis and decided this is where their market is headed psychographically. Complementarianism is a little more complicated (and why the two factions are united on it) because abandoning that would dilute their bargaining power in the labor market. But their younger guys are going to be pressured on that point, so it’s a delicate balance, hence Russell Moore’s equivocation on Beth Moore.

    That sounds so unspiritual, doesn’t it? I wish I didn’t believe it. I wish I could go back, in some ways, to the SBC of years ago and go forward in other ways to an SBC that is governed by the law of Christ and not by a finger in the wind or the doctrines of man — where guys like Dwight McKissic didn’t feel like they were marginalized and were not, in fact, marginalized in the life of the SBC and where Beth Moore could also preach in the same pulpit with him on Sunday morning. Wouldn’t that be a picture of the Kingdom and reconciliation!


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    Friend: Will you please say more about why you equate complementarianism with critical race theory?

    I don’t equate them. In the past decade or so, some professors have begun introducing ideas of Critical Race Theory into Southern Baptist seminaries. That is the primary concern of the Conservative Baptist Network. I’m not an affiliate nor a fan, though I definitely share their concern. I think that CRT and Complementarianism are similar in that both are based on power structures. The Gospel is not based on a power structure at all. In fact, the Gospel is about the God-Man relinquishing his position and assuming a position of humility so that we who are enemies of one another can be reconciled to Him and to each other. Critical Race Theory, in contrast, frames The Problem as an essential one of Oppressor and Oppressed without any solution. There is no salvation and no reconciliation. There is no Gospel. There is accusation of others and self and self-flagellation. On a practical level, there is no practical and workable definition of “systemic racism” and, as a result, there can be no definition or metric for improvement or success. So, while everyone can see there are problems, no one agrees on the causes. But now there is a Grand Unifying Cause, and it is Systemic Racism. That strikes me and other pragmatic people who have actually tried to work on this as scammy and magical thinking. Right now we are in the middle of a social panic, and people are rightly concerned about some specific things are very wrong in our society. But we need to be very careful not to do harm. Think carefully and logically and don’t follow the crowd, which is rarely a good guide. We criticize the Usual Suspects for their authoritarianism and money-grubbing and their fanboys, and that’s what I see going on with the CRT movement lately: A fad with really no good purpose, though it sounds good.

    I wrote quite a lot about this on the Cornerstone thread and don’t want to be repetitive here. The issue, I think, is not whether there is racism or not or whether there is inequality or not. Clearly there is. The issue is how the problem is framed. And how the problem is framed often determines how a solution is found or not found and how damage is done or not done. I believe that pursuing CRT will create more hostility rather than more reconciliation, even in the secular realm. I want to think most people want to be empathetic, and I think that’s a better approach. Shai Linne had an excellent article at TGC a couple of weeks ago, though I’m not sure where he lands on this topic.


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    Max: “As far as I can see, the Caring Well was a bust but the SBC can show it off and claim they *did something.*”

    I think the “Caring Well” did exactly what it was intended to do —- it got the reporters off their tails!


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    In the prologue to this article, a quote of Anthony St Maarten, is the phrase “There is no shame in expressing your authentic feelings.” One should consider that – if those feelings are wrong – those feelings should be left unsaid, and unacted upon. We have arrived at the present pass entirely because those feelings are actually said – such as, for example, child exploitation rings run from the basement of a pizza parlor. On this score, because of his naïveté, St Maarten is entirely in error.

    (If I’s taken that advice, my marriage would have lasted days, not decades.)


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    Gram3: The issue is how the problem is framed. And how the problem is framed often determines how a solution is found or not found and how damage is done or not done. I believe that pursuing CRT will create more hostility rather than more reconciliation, even in the secular realm.

    I feel like this is the case only because they want to get more churches into the fold, not because they really want to act on any institutional racism. In other words, I feel like this is pure marketing. Their continued teaching and use of Founder theology hasn’t gone away, just shifted to a different group–women. But they heavily push elitism and hierarchy in their churches, so I don’t think they’ve stopped believing in supporting inequality in men. They just hide it, just like they hid their takeover of the institutions and they hide their local church takeovers. They fully want to rule other men as much as women, but they know that if they let on, they will be quickly out of power.

    The CBN isn’t just mad about CRT, though, but control of the ERLC and the SBC. They fully believed they would be the kings of the SBC after the revision of the BFM 2000. That the New Calvinists came out with this full and obviously carefully planned takeover with little warning knocked many of them out of their key positions. I watched this first hand at NAMB and at SEBTS. They viewed the ERLC as their means to controlling the national secular stage, as that was why it was founded. That the New Calvinists took it from them is a very sore point.

    With the way things are now in the secular world, the CBN lost a long time ago. They have damaged their reputations by supporting people who are quite clearly terrible people. But they are the type of guys who don’t know that they’ve lost. And as I said earlier, the New Calvinists structure is so focused on cults of personality that I don’t think they can maintain their movement. The most likely scenario is that something else will come along as a big fan, and people will take off on that. By this point, so many people have left the SBC that they won’t have the power for it to matter much anyway.


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    Ishy:

    I have not kept up with CRT. Are there two competing views? If so, who is trying to pursue it, and who is opposed to it?


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    Nancy2(aka Kevlar): I think the “Caring Well” did exactly what it was intended to do —- it got the reporters off their tails!

    And sadly this worked. These “men” could care less about women-they still believe women are subordinate to them. They will never address the issues that relate to women in the SBC IMO. I do not hate these SBC leaders but I have a very strong dislike for them.


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    ishy: I predict New Calvinism will disappear in the next 20-30 years as the leaders die out.

    “If this teaching or movement is merely human it will collapse of its own accord” (Acts 5:38-39)

    It should be clear by now that the New Calvinist movement is “merely human.” It is populated by ‘Christian’ celebrities and an army of rebellious followers who have constructed a system of belief and practice which goes contrary to genuine faith. Jesus has no authority in the house they have built; men rule. The new reformers have built their kingdom in the flesh, not by the Spirit. Thus, “it will collapse of its own accord.”


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    Gram3: So, while everyone can see there are problems, no one agrees on the causes. But now there is a Grand Unifying Cause, and it is Systemic Racism.

    And in The Gospel According to QAnon, there is a Grand Unifying Cause, and it is The Deep State Conspiracy. (Masterminded by SATAN Himself in a retread of the Satanic Panic.)

    And when The Conspiracy becomes So Vast and So Utterly EVIL, it justifies Any Means Necessary to destroy it. Any. Means. Necessary.


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    mot: I do not hate these SBC leaders but I have a very strong dislike for them.

    In the words of an old song “God don’t like it and I don’t either.”


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    Ava Aaronson: elastigirl: Christian woman have been conditioned that it is wrong for them to be outspoken, like the women of the evil worldly world do.

    “godly” = silent = feminine = lovely

    i.e. a Domestic Show Pet — With Benefits (nudge nudge wink wink know what I mean know what I mean?)


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    ishy: It also means that they aren’t training leaders to take over. They’ve trained a bunch of people to follow their cults of personality, but not to lead.

    Cults of Personality don’t long outlive their Leader/Founder.
    (Sometimes deliberately; remember Heaven’s Gate?)
    Few Joseph Smiths are succeeded by a Brigham Young who can turn the personality cult into a self-sustaining system.


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    Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: Even then, we didn’t know how truly awful it was inside Scientology. It took Tom Cruise jumping on Oprah’s couch in 2005 and then telling Matt Lauer (yeah, yeah, yeah) a few months later that he knew more about psychology and antidepressants than Brooke Shields, who had just disclosed her post-partum depression.

    Don’t forget South Park‘s Scientology episode and its aftermath.


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    Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: This sounds like some multi-level marketing companies, where the emphasis (and the money) is in recruiting, not selling the product. It’s uncanny how similar this is.

    I figured that out in the Seventies, with Campus Crusade’s “Multiplying Ministry”.

    Saving Sheep whose only purpose is to Save More Sheep whose only purpose is to Save More Sheep whose only purpose is to Save More Sheep…

    “If it looks like a pyramid, RUN.”
    Coffee with Jesus


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    Headless Unicorn Guy: Cults of Personality don’t long outlive their Leader/Founder.

    While there are other key personalities within this cult, the often referred to Father of New Calvinism is John Piper. He is 74 years old.


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    Nancy2(aka Kevlar): I think the “Caring Well” did exactly what it was intended to do —- it got the reporters off their tails!

    Americans (and most Christians) have short memories – they move from one news highlight to the next, quickly forgetting ‘old’ reports. However, the Children of God should never move that fast when it comes to abuse and abusers in the church … they need to stay on the trail and hold wicked ones accountable.


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    mot: I have not kept up with CRT. Are there two competing views? If so, who is trying to pursue it, and who is opposed to it?

    It’s mainly a secular way to look at systematic racism. Moore writes about it and there has been some discussion about it at the seminaries. Because of that, it clearly has Mohler’s blessing. The traditional conservatives think it’s attempt to change evangelical Baptists to liberals. I really don’t think it has anything to do with that, and is more of an attempt to bring in some of the black and minority Baptist denominations under SBC.

    The Conservative Baptist Network guys have always been unfailing literal, which is why the New Calvinists were so easily able to take their institutions over. They don’t seem to get that everything Mohler and friends do is a longterm plan to assimilate others. And that they have no problem with flat-out lying to do so. The New Cals may even be angling to something like a Handmaid’s Tale sort of society, but don’t see extreme conservatism the path to attaining enough power.


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    ishy: They don’t seem to get that everything Mohler and friends do is a longterm plan to assimilate others. And that they have no problem with flat-out lying to do so.

    Another example of this would be autonomy. Because of their belief in strict heirarchy in churches, I don’t think they believe in church autonomy at all. I think once they believe they have enough Convention voting power, they will attempt to remove local church autonomy. There will be some big obstacles to overcome, namely the legal setups of the churches. Perhaps they will go with an opt-in scenario to start. But I think they fully intend to remove autonomy from the SBC as much as possible (if they survive long enough, which I doubt).


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    Gram3,

    Thank you for such a thoughtful response. I did read your comments on the Cornerstone thread, and appreciate your diving deeper here.

    I wonder how much of this is “dead cat politics”? As soon as somebody throws a dead cat on the table, all constructive dialog ceases. Maybe just mentioning a phrase as provocative as “Critical Race Theory” is enough to drive people into their corners, with some yelling “it’s about time we talked about this” and others yelling “this is not the right time.”

    Moreover, if the school of thought merely states a problem without proposing workable solutions, the underlying topic of racism can be dismissed.

    Overall, though, I don’t deeply trust the SBC to promote an authentic understanding of racism, let alone systemic racism.


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    ishy: They don’t seem to get that everything Mohler and friends do is a longterm plan to assimilate others. And that they have no problem with flat-out lying to do so.

    That explains alot about their politics for me. It also explains their willingness to ignore and/or cover up all kinds of abuse in their midst. The end game is all that matters.


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    ishy: It’s mainly a secular way to look at systematic racism. Moore writes about it and there has been some discussion about it at the seminaries. Because of that, it clearly has Mohler’s blessing. The traditional conservatives think it’s attempt to change evangelical Baptists to liberals.

    A secular view of anything is automatically suspicious, eh? A lot of people don’t differentiate between secularism, atheism, and anti-Christian militancy. Particularly this year, a few very noisy Christians in the US have cried persecution over emergency health regulations.


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    Friend: A secular view of anything is automatically suspicious, eh? A lot of people don’t differentiate between secularism, atheism, and anti-Christian militancy. Particularly this year, a few very noisy Christians in the US have cried persecution over emergency health regulations.

    That’s exactly why CBN is angry about it. Secular=bad, in their view. And CRT really isn’t much of a statement on anything, just a framework for thinking about certain topics. But I don’t think the New Cals are honest about their beliefs at all. I think they just use things they think will get them more power, whether they agree with them or not. They are losing churches and they know it, so they are hoping to bring in more African American churches. I don’t think the New Cals have the interests of those churches at heart, they are just considered vehicles for more money and power.


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    ishy,

    It’s really such a shame that Christianity never developed teachings against violence or in favor of equality. Maybe the SBC can look to old pagan sayings, such as “all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.” I’ve vaguely heard of an American figure named Martin Luther King, who I believe was both secular and not a Baptist. Maybe he wrote some things down or made speeches that the SBC could study.

    /sarc


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    Friend: I’ve vaguely heard of an American figure named Martin Luther King, who I believe was both secular and not a Baptist.

    Well, I mean we have such modern icons as John Macarthur, who was apparently also a civil rights pioneer, even though nobody seems to remember him being there! Of course, he’s not Baptist, but he’s such a moral and dynamic Christian preacher that many in the CBN and the Founders had to run over and sign his statement on social justice. Nevermind that Macarthur just made up his own definition of social justice. We can’t let good Christians know what the secular world is really doing, right? /s

    Teehee….


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    Gram3: I don’t like that either because it is just power politics. It’s sickening how the real issues get tossed aside because of that… Both factions are a bunch of clowns. They all are incapable of being serious and dealing seriously and cooperatively with big issues like sexual abuse or real racial reconciliation because they are still stuck in their own circus.

    Your assessment reminds me of an episode of “Law and Order”. Briscoe and Logan are investigating the murder of a local politician, and learn about his over-the-top antics with a rival lawmaker (done intentionally by both for publicity).

    Logan: “They pretend to be friends, so they can pretend to be enemies?”
    Briscoe: “And you wonder why they can’t get the potholes fixed.”

    Not that I think that the factions you mention are even pretending to like each other. But I find it parallel in that their political machinations are simply a waste of time. And the SBC has a lot more to fix than just potholes.


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    Max,

    He is/was not SBC, correct? His church was in the North; he’s a Northerner?
    Similar, Driscoll? Wilson?
    Yet they fall in line with the SBC and Calvinistas?
    Asking for clarification, where cult/party lines are drawn.


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    Ava Aaronson: He is/was not SBC, correct? His church was in the North; he’s a Northerner?
    Similar, Driscoll? Wilson?
    Yet they fall in line with the SBC and Calvinistas?

    New Calvinism actually falls across denominational lines, but I believe they chose the SBC because the money was there and the churches are easier to take over because they are autonomous. But there are New Calvinist Presbyterian churches, Evangelical Free churches, Assemblies of God (one where I live), and other denominations.

    Piper was in a small conservative Calvinist Baptist denomination (retired now). Piper’s writing paved a lot of the way for the rise of New Calvinism, though the movement was going along simultaneously in the SBC.

    Doug Wilson was in a similar denomination to Piper’s, though they seemed considerably more fundamentalist to me (isolationist, homeschool only, women cannot be educated, etc). Mars Hill, Driscoll’s church, was “nondenominational”, but had New Calvinist theology. I think Driscoll mainly liked the idea of his own little kingdom and fully intended on setting up his own denomination. One problem with the New Cals is that they really like power and they don’t like sharing it, so eventually some of them were bound to go off on their own.


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    Bridget: That explains alot about their politics for me. It also explains their willingness to ignore and/or cover up all kinds of abuse in their midst. The end game is all that matters.

    “There is no Right, there is no Wrong, there is only Power.”
    — Lord Voldemort

    “The only goal of Power is POWER. And POWER consists of inflicting maximum suffering upon the Powerless.”
    — Comrade O’Brian, Inner Party, Airstrip One, Oceania, 1984

    “POWER is Power.”
    — Cersei Lannister, Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, Game of Thrones


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    ishy: The New Cals may even be angling to something like a Handmaid’s Tale sort of society, but don’t see extreme conservatism the path to attaining enough power.

    With themselves Predestined as the Elect Commanders of Holy Gilead.

    “I’M KING OF EVERYTHKNG I SEE!”
    — Dr Seuss, Yertle the Turtle


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    Ava Aaronson,

    ishy: Piper’s writing paved a lot of the way for the rise of New Calvinism, though the movement was going along simultaneously in the SBC.

    Ava, Ishy has provided a great snapshot of the rise of New Calvinism (hopefully, Ishy will provide a comment on its fall soon).

    As noted, leadership of the movement has been diverse. Groups like The Gospel (aka Calvinist) Coalition and Together for the Gospel (aka Calvinism) have provided an umbrella for the movers and shakers of the movement to come together to plot their takeover of Christianity in America. Leaders of the new reformation have been of various shapes and sizes, ranging from the radical macho-man Driscoll to the more reserved (but just as crazy) Piper. Mohler has been “The Man” in SBC who will answer to God for wresting the denomination away from millions of non-Calvinist members who financed the stuff the Mohler boys looted (churches, seminaries, mission agencies, publishing house, etc.).


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    ishy: New Calvinism

    control, cult, covenant/contract, Calvin, “conservatism” as a brand


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    ishy: The New Cals may even be angling to something like a Handmaid’s Tale sort of society

    Calvin attempted to make 16th century Geneva a “Christian” utopia. Dissenters were exiled, imprisoned, tortured, or executed. Even recruiting the strong arm of the magistrate to enforce his dictates, his plan proved to futile. The New Calvinists, under the “beauty of complementarity”, force female believers to live out lives of servitude in their patriarchal society. I keep waiting for these women to rise up en masse, declare “Enough is enough!”, and drag their sorry husbands/boyfriends out of the New Calvinist snare.


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    Friend,

    Sorry, I missed the sarc. at the end of your comment.


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    Ken P.,

    It’s OK, Ken. The SBC missed out on MLK’s Christianity. 😉


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    Ken P.,

    It’s fine, Ken. The Southern Baptist Convention missed the Baptist heritage of the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. 😉

    (This is a paraphrase of a reply attempt. Those sin-sniffing pugs are gnawing at my entirely clean language. If this doesn’t post, I’ll contact Dee.)


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    Ken F (aka Tweed): https://www.9marks.org/article/why-churches-should-excommunicate-longstanding-non-attenders/

    “Excommunicating someone who has completely stopped attending is, in effect, giving them what they’ve asked for.” (Alex Duke, YRR Whippersnapper)

    I’m sure there is a great multitude of non-Calvinist Southern Baptists who have stopped attending local churches they faithfully served for years after experiencing the stealth and deception of young reformers who wrested control of the churches they financed. They are not lost souls asking that you give them what they wanted – excommunication. They are genuine believers, waiting for the New Calvinist movement to blow over so they can make an attempt to rebuild the loved places they left behind. They left because they didn’t want Calvinist belief and practice in the places where they worshipped … they are traditional Southern Baptists who love people and believe that whosoever will may come to Christ. They saw many profess faith in Jesus in the years they spent in those churches where the Gospel that still saves is no longer preached. So they wait. Mr. Duke calls them “Done” … but they are only done with what he offers, not done with Jesus. I know many in my area; I am one of them.


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    Ken F (aka Tweed),

    Yes, he suggests that excommunication is kind. In real life, it is the worst punishment a church can mete out, and never kind. He goes on too much about the Parable of the Lost Sheep. Someone not in the pews is not necessarily lost. I’d wager that 99.99999999% of his missing members know precisely where they are on Sundays.

    More generally, is the Parable of the Lost Sheep only about the state of the soul? Jesus spoke a lot about earthly troubles. The sheep could be injured or sick, not mired in sin.

    I’ve never seen a sheep in a strip club, but that could be because I’ve never been to one either.


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    Ken F (aka Tweed): https://www.9marks.org/article/why-churches-should-excommunicate-longstanding-non-attenders/

    “I’ve never met a growing and mature Christian who doesn’t regularly attend a gospel-preaching church.” (Alex Duke, YRR Whippersnapper)

    Mr. Duke doesn’t know the growing and mature Christians who comment on TWW regularly. He has yet to meet those who don’t go to church but are the church, because he lives in a New Calvinist bubble where he idolizes leaders who manipulate, intimidate and dominate church members through church covenants and discipline. I pray that someday he regrets writing such a missive to the church … hopefully, after he has become a mature Christian.

    (Dee, if you are listening in, there is a lot in this article that needs attention by the watchblog community)


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    I understand bloated riolls and nonattenders but why not just axe them off the roles instead of excommunicating them? If you really had a close knit caring church, someone should know what happened to you. If I don’t show up in a couple of weeks folks st my church call me to make sure I am okay, not because they have too but because they care. In my men’s group we will
    ask if anyone knows what’s going on with Gary. If no one has heard from him one of us will see how he is doing. If someone is struggling we ask how we can help. It seems to me if you have real community and Christian love you shouldn’t have large numbers of missing members. ( not that we do it perfectly , we don’t , a few fall through the cracks)


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    Max: They are genuine believers, waiting

    Awhile back I asked an older member what she thought of our church. She said, “Oh, I am provoked with the pastor over the gloom in the library. He never should have had the windows taken out to put in those offices.”

    “We’re kind of new. I didn’t know about that,” I replied. “When did he have the windows removed?”

    “I don’t recall exactly. It was around 1954.”


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    Chuck: why not just axe them off the roles instead of excommunicating them?

    In mainline churches, this has long been considered a disciplinary action.

    Churches really have no way of knowing what the church means to the absent member. Even small churches lose track. Let’s say a senior gradually stops attending, and then there is a transition of pastors and volunteers. Give it a few years and nobody knows who Betty Johnson is. Meanwhile, she loves getting an occasional newsletter and thinking about those baptisms decades ago. And the church might just be in Betty’s will.


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    Chuck: If I don’t show up in a couple of weeks folks st my church call me to make sure I am okay, not because they have too but because they care.

    And they care because they love you. Love is not the first word that comes to mind when describing New Calvinists … arrogance is.


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    I dunno if y’all are following Watchkeep, but recently a wife of a SBC pastor has gone missing after leaving to visit her sister. She appears to have converted or is trying to convert to Catholicism. Her husband was trying to apply for a job at a SBC institution, but it’s unclear for what. The way the family is acting is very strange, for example claiming there are “no marital issues” even though a wife converting to Catholicism is bound to create marital problems for a SBC pastor from a New Calvinist church (I read their beliefs–they are VERY New Cal).

    The interviews with the husband are particularly disturbing. He acts almost giddy. And the tip line they advertise goes to a family company instead of police, but police are giving another one.

    Here’s one news article about it:
    https://www.kmbc.com/article/overland-park-kansas-police-department-detectives-running-into-dead-ends-in-search-for-marilane-carter/33607254


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    Friend: Awhile back I asked an older member what she thought of our church. She said, “Oh, I am provoked with the pastor over the gloom in the library. He never should have had the windows taken out to put in those offices.”

    Oh yeah, I’ve known church folks like that too. They’ve spent a lifetime in church arguing about the color of the carpet or the color of the preacher! Then there are those precious old saints who pray daily for their church and community.


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    ishy: recently a wife of a SBC pastor has gone missing after leaving to visit her sister. She appears to have converted or is trying to convert to Catholicism … (I read their beliefs – they are VERY New Cal).

    “VERY New Cal” will drive a woman crazy after a while – the “beauty of complimentarity” ain’t all that. Sounds like she is trying to escape while she is still in her right mind.


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    Samuel Conner: It would be an interesting study in the history of theology in the American churches to assess whether there was a link between the defeat the of the South and the move away from predestinarian soteriology in the SBC. It seems plausible that there could be a connection — not a happy thought that God decreed first the rebellion and then its inglorious failure.

    I remember reading in one of Bruce Catton’s books that U.S. Grant thought the Civil War was punishment for our involvement in the war with Mexico


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    Max: “VERY New Cal” will drive a woman crazy after a while – the “beauty of complimentarity” ain’t all that. Sounds like she is trying to escape while she is still in her right mind.

    I really hope that’s what happened and that she is alive and in a safe place.


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    elastigirl: Christian woman have been conditioned that it is wrong for them to be outspoken, like the women of the evil worldly world do.

    Why yes, you don’t know how many times I’ve been told that picketing was wrong because I’m female and not shy about where I stand on things. I have never been demure and retiring. That silence you’re seeing is me reading the room and waiting for just the right moment to say something true but entirely inappropriate for the moment. (Oh, like the lack of fire suppression equipment in a document vault? That was me.) *shrug*


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    Max: Calvin attempted to make 16th century Geneva a “Christian” utopia. Dissenters were exiled, imprisoned, tortured, or executed. Even recruiting the strong arm of the magistrate to enforce his dictates, his plan proved to futile. The New Calvinists, under the “beauty of complementarity”, force female believers to live out lives of servitude in their patriarchal society. I keep waiting for these women to rise up en masse, declare “Enough is enough!”, and drag their sorry husbands/boyfriends out of the New Calvinist snare.

    I just don’t see that particular scenario playing out. There are some women who really think they will be able to hang on to power even if their husbands take over the government (see Serena Joy Waterford, Handmaid’s Tale). As Serena Joy found out, she didn’t have the power she thought she would and was basically shoved home by her husband. I also think there would be far, far more women who might think they are special and would be excluded from the stay at home with little power arrangement, but that wouldn’t happen.

    However, I do know women will dump their husbands/boyfriends than get them out. I’m dating myself, but when Promise Keepers was popular in the later 1990s, a woman wrote in to a news magazine saying she was divorcing her husband, who had gotten involved in the group, which the magazine had profiled. Since she lived in New York, which only had fault-based divorce at the time, she said she was going to name Bill McCartney and Promise Keepers as the reasons why her marriage broke up. Her husband had been given expectations from Promise Keepers that he could expect that she was going to come home and be a submissive wife, and she was having none of it. So much for Promise Keepers strengthening marriage…


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    Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: So much for Promise Keepers strengthening marriage…

    The Promise Keepers’ lead speaker in my area divorced his wife and is now living with another woman.


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    Chuck: I understand bloated riolls and nonattenders but why not just axe them off the roles instead of excommunicating them?

    The author’s main point was why that is exactly the wrong apporoach, but he had to admit that the Bible does not support his position.


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    Max: I pray that someday he regrets…

    That prayer will likely be answered.


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    Friend: Yes, he suggests that excommunication is kind.

    I don’t think he knows what that word means. It means out of communication, meaning no contact – shunning. And in the days when sacramemts meant something, it also meant being cut off from the means of grace by being excluded from the sacramemts. He needs to come up with a better word. More importantly, he needs to rethink his entire perspective.


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    ishy: Well, I mean we have such modern icons as John Macarthur

    MacArthur is defying state mandates against large gatherings, masks, and social distancing.
    He’s gonna pack em’ into his Los Angeles church anyway cuz’ it’s ‘biblical’.
    There’s no shortage of idiocy in the fundagelical sub-culture.


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    ishy: I feel like this is the case only because they want to get more churches into the fold, not because they really want to act on any institutional racism. In other words, I feel like this is pure marketing.

    Not sure I’m following you. Do you mean the Moore/Thabiti/Dever/Mohler guys here? If so, then I agree. And I agree they are still following much of the Founders theology as well, though they have toned down the rhetoric. I just think it is interesting that the Founders bloc has split over the CRT issue. I also agree that the CBN faction wants to control the ERLC and the EC and the SBC as a whole, but that’s nothing new, right?

    What is interesting to me is that the 1689er Founders have joined with what were formerly known as the Traditionalist non-Calvinists with the primary mission to defeat an anti-Gospel teaching. That *is* news in a convention that has been roiled by Calvinism wars for years going into decades now. I think this will possibly split the convention or at least lead to a decline. I certainly believe that teaching toxic CRT will lead to a decline in the convention. Far better would be healthy teaching on racial reconciliation hopefully leading to more bi-racial and multi-racial churches, imo.

    In the meantime, they won’t have any time to agree to deal with real sexual abuse issues. That would be too difficult.


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    Friend: Maybe just mentioning a phrase as provocative as “Critical Race Theory” is enough to drive people into their corners, with some yelling “it’s about time we talked about this” and others yelling “this is not the right time.”

    I dpn
    t think it’s more a matter of the corrosive ideas than the words. There are many Southern Baptist churches that are multi-racial already. I think the problem is more at the leadership level. My experience on the ground in multi-racial and bi-racial churches is that the pew peons are fine and don’t need the toxic ideas. In the broader society, there are certainly systemic issues that exist and which can be identified that result in inequality, but that is different from what the CRT proponents are calling “systemic racism” which is just a construct. They sound like the same thing, but they are not.

    Here’s a youtube roundtable discussion with 7 black intellectuals who cross the political spectrum and age spectrum but who all oppose CRT. They frankly touch on a range of issues that are verboten under CRT and which prevent real improvement.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHGt733yw3g


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    ishy: That’s exactly why CBN is angry about it. Secular=bad, in their view. And CRT really isn’t much of a statement on anything, just a framework for thinking about certain topics.

    I’m going to take the word of the black members of the board of CBN that they are concerned about the effect of CRT teaching in SBC churches. I don’t think those persons, in particular, would be so concerned if it were merely a matter of secular being bad. I think they do see this as being anti-Gospel. And I think we should give their voices some respect. They are taking a stand that might not be popular. As I’ve said, I’m not a fan of either faction (or certainly some in each faction), but I will defend the Gospel against false gospels or anti-gospels.


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    Ken F (aka Tweed): I am sure you will be thrilled by the latest 9Marx post.

    I thought that was already standard procedure for 9Marks. Suspended for Covid but operational again?


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    Max: Mr. Duke doesn’t know

    a lot. My guess is he is a another Pastor Pup who needs to get out more.


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    Ken F (aka Tweed): but he had to admit that the Bible does not support his position.

    That’s a minor quibble in 9Marks’ version of Biblical authority.


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    Max: Mr. Duke doesn’t know the growing and mature Christians who comment on TWW regularly.

    AKA the kind of people who are not considered good and compliant sheep per TGC’s latest offering:
    https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/easy-shepherd/


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    Ken F (aka Tweed): https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/easy-shepherd/

    “Before we can receive our elders’ ministry, we must identify as their flock.”

    “Their flock”? If you buy that, they own you. As a believer, Christ is the head of His Church. You find your identity in Jesus as a member of the Body of Christ, not as a member of “their” flock. New Calvinism gives Jesus little authority over His Church. Be careful what you join yourself to; you will have trouble finding the genuine in the counterfeit offered by New Calvinism.

    “By joining a local church, we submit ourselves to the leadership of those shepherds so they can then know and care for us.”

    They don’t want to know you! They want to control you! “Care for us” in New Calvinist lingo means you give leaders the green light to manipulate, intimidate and dominate you. Don’t sign the contract!

    “As sheep, we should ask ourselves if we are receiving this care willingly.”

    In other words, never question the leaders. It would be best for you to be willingly ignorant … or else. This is the stuff that cults are made of!


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    Gram3: My guess is he is a another Pastor Pup who needs to get out more.

    In the meantime, the young Duke is earning a lot brownie points with New Calvinist leaders for writing stuff like this. He may even get to have dinner with the big boys at the next 9Marx conference!


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    Max: In other words, never question the leaders. It would be best for you to be willingly ignorant … or else.

    And if you leave without their permission they will hunt you down to discipline you and excommunicate you if you don’t submit.


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    Ken F (aka Tweed): if you leave without their permission they will hunt you down to discipline you and excommunicate you if you don’t submit

    Authoritarians must always have the last word! They won’t stop until they have annihilated you.

    When the Pharisees kicked the former blind man out of church for sharing his testimony about Jesus healing him, Jesus went looking for him. When there’s death in the camp, it’s best to leave it so you can walk in new life with Jesus.


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    Max,

    Max I am a done also.


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    Gram3: I’m going to take the word of the black members of the board of CBN that they are concerned about the effect of CRT teaching in SBC churches. I don’t think those persons, in particular, would be so concerned if it were merely a matter of secular being bad. I think they do see this as being anti-Gospel.

    So does John Macarthur and most of the white signers of the statement on social justice? In fact, I would say that the movement against it is mostly white, and not black pastors, though there are some. Furthermore, I’ve read several articles by Moore who neither uses it nor condemns the use of it, just brings up that it’s becoming an important issue in secular culture. And I don’t think the New Cals are using it in the way that CBN thinks they are, because that’s not their style. I’ll also note that Mohler is against the use of it, though he doesn’t appear to be against the discussion of it.

    In other words, I believe it’s a red herring. The CBN wants control of the SBC back and they made that accusation because it’s a hot topic, not because it’s got a lot of truth behind it. The New Cals think they can pick up new churches by making it a topic of discussion, but they don’t care about institutional racism. They’re even more elitist than CBN. I wouldn’t be surprised if most of them are avid believers in original Founder theology, but they just flat out lie thinking that one day they will have their Gilead.


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    ishy,

    I will put it another way. I believe many New Calvinist leaders want to enslave everyone outside their elite class. I have personally heard them say that anyone who is not elect deserves atrocious, inhumane treatment from them because that’s how they think God treats non-elect. If they can make that legal, they would and will.

    CBN and friends should be going after the New Calvinist’s theology, not the things they mention in passing. This is why the SBC was taken over. What the New Calvinists actually believe and teach about humanity and women is FAR worse than critical race theory. And if they don’t want to, they are just as bad and the whole SBC should collapse for the good of humanity.


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    ishy: I believe many New Calvinist leaders want to enslave everyone outside their elite class. I have personally heard them say that anyone who is not elect deserves atrocious, inhumane treatment from them because that’s how they think God treats non-elect.

    Which of course is not a demonstration of love … without love, it is not “of God.” These folks don’t know the Lord; they are a noisy bunch proclaiming another gospel which is not the Gospel at all.

    “If I have not love for others growing out of God’s love for me, then I have become only a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal, just an annoying distraction.” (1 Corinthians 13:1)

    New Calvinism is “an annoying distraction” which is keeping a segment of the church from fulfilling the Great Commission. Whose plan would that be?


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    ishy: I wouldn’t be surprised if most of them are avid believers in original Founder theology, but they just flat out lie thinking that one day they will have their Gilead.

    With themselves on top as the Predestined Elect Commanders.


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    Max: Authoritarians must always have the last word! They won’t stop until they have annihilated you.

    Make an Example of one and a hundred will fall into line, bleating your praises.


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    Max: He may even get to have dinner with the big boys at the next 9Marx conference!

    They might even pat-pat-pat him on the head and give him a doggie treat!
    “GOOD BOY! GOOD BOY!”


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    Max: “Before we can receive our elders’ ministry, we must identify as their flock.”

    “WE ARE UNITED BEHIND THE VISIONARY!!!!!”
    — Sunday School coloring book at PASTOR Furtick’s Church.


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    Max: New Calvinism is “an annoying distraction” which is keeping a segment of the church from fulfilling the Great Commission.

    Worse than that, it is driving people away feom faith. But I suppose they can rationalize that as getting a head start on separating the sheep from the goats.


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    Ken F (aka Tweed): Worse than that, it is driving people away from faith. But I suppose they can rationalize that as getting a head start on separating the sheep from the goats.

    The New Calvinists look at that as “They went out from us, but they were not of us” (1 John 2:19). In my case, they got that right!

    IMO, true believers ensnared by New Calvinism are faced with a tension between two Scriptures: “Forsake not the assembling of yourselves together” vs. “Come out from her and be not a partaker of her sins”. It would not be wise to halt long between those two opinions.


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    ishy: In fact, I would say that the movement against it is mostly white, and not black pastors, though there are some.

    Did you take a look at the Toutube link that I posted in a comment above? It is 7 black intellectuals across the political spectrum from Blue Left to Red Right who oppose CRT as toxic. They are secular; some are atheists. It’s not a white thing to be concerned about this or a black thing or a Christian thing or a secular thing. It’s a matter of what does it do to relations between human beings and what does it do, if anything, to improve inequality? Will this improve race relations in the SBC or not? I don’t think that’s a red-herring issue.

    I think it *is* significant that this one issue is the one that has united extreme Calvinist Founders and Traditionalist Non-Cals in the SBC and Conservative and Liberal secular black intellectuals who may not agree on other things. They see the danger and the authoritarian and cultic nature of it.

    I’m not disagreeing about power dynamics in the SBC. I detest them. The Moore fanboys at Voices seem to have have forgotten that he violated entity neutrality in 2016. It’s bad enough that pastors do political pulpiteering. But Moore brought division up to the entity level when the pew peons have different viewpoints. That was grossly irresponsible for an entity head. He should only advocate for issues as he was commissioned, not for a party or candidate. I wish that divisive things like this did not distract from other really important issues, as you say. But I’m also thankful that people are paying attention to this threat and doing something about it, and at least a good thing that Calvinist and non-Calvinist and black and white SBC members are working on this together. That’s a change for the better.


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    ishy: CBN and friends should be going after the New Calvinist’s theology, not the things they mention in passing.

    Once upon a time, New Calvinism was thought to be a passing thing that the kids would get over. The average pew peon had never heard of John Piper or any of the Usual Suspects. Mohler cloaked himself well, just like they are doing now. Too bad no one recognized that threat and dealt with it early on. Totalist systems are gonna be totalist sooner or later. So, notice who embraces CRT so readily now. It’s the Calvinistas. They are pivoting. Catching the new wave.


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    Gram3: So, notice who embraces CRT so readily now. It’s the Calvinistas. They are pivoting. Catching the new wave.

    They don’t believe in using CRT. They don’t. It’s completely irrelevant except that they think they can recruit from it. The core CBN group are not good people either. They have no problem with women and children being abused and molested. They want people in leadership and in secular offices that will protect them and them only. There are way worse things going on than these surface issues.

    Neither of these groups are what’s best for the SBC and neither of these groups are doing the right things.


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    Gram3: Once upon a time, New Calvinism was thought to be a passing thing that the kids would get over.

    And now the kids are running the church!