Daniel Lavery: Church Volunteer Who Confessed Attraction to Minors is My Brother!

 

Yesterday Daniel Lavery, the estranged son of John Ortberg, revealed what many suspected – the individual who had confessed to Daniel that “for as long as he can remember, he has been sexually obsessed with children – especially boys between the age of 8-13,” is his brother. In November 2019 Lavery wrote to the elders of Menlo Church that John Ortberg, senior pastor of the Menlo church, had “conspired in secret to provide a person experiencing compulsive sexual feelings towards children with unsupervised access to young people through youth groups.”

Apparently, John Ortberg and his wife Nancy Ortberg don’t take sexual abuse seriously. Not only has John attempted to keep his son’s sexual obsession with young boys a secret and advised him to continue working with youth, but both he and his wife, Nancy, have promoted a book by Brian Loritts. You will recall that in 2010 Loritts covered-up felony crimes of his then brother-in-law while Loritts was the senior pastor of Fellowship Memphis Church.

J.D. Greear hired Loritts as a pastor effective June 1, 2020. Not surprisingly, Greear has also endorsed the book below.

 

L to R, Unknown, Daniel Lavery, Grace Lavery

Daniel Lavery made an interesting observation of his father below.

You may have heard that Daniel Lavery is a transgender man. That fact has been brought up by John Ortberg’s defenders, however, it is simply a smokescreen in this case. In all of this Daniel Lavery has had the correct motive at heart. He is attempting to keep children safe. He has undoubtedly suffered greatly as a result of bringing this case to light. I respect him for his determined effort to do the right thing.  What I see is another case of an evangelical pastor failing to do the right thing.  Below are some screenshots taken from Tweets published by Daniel Lavery. If you wish to read the entire thread you can go to this link.

Comments

Daniel Lavery: Church Volunteer Who Confessed Attraction to Minors is My Brother! — 81 Comments

  1. “the sexual instinct is intertwined with the instinct to nurture, and that close personal contact with children is what gives his life meaning.”

    No. This is NOT nurturing. This is grooming with the goal of targeting a child. This instinct is predation.

    An adult nurturing a child NEVER involves sex. That is a sick predatory adult projecting their feelings and needs on a minor.

    Ask anyone professionally licensed and holding to their professional code of conduct in the medical, counseling, education, and coaching industries. Nurturing a child and sex do NOT mix, never cross paths.

    Nurturing is looking out for the welfare of a child and nurturing upholds iron steel boundaries on behalf of the innocence of that child, which NEVER includes sex – feelings or actions or thoughts.

  2. pastor/elder qualifications:

    “having children who believe, not accused of being immoral” (Titus 1)

    “manages his own household competently, having his children under control” (1 Timothy 3)

  3. drstevej: Menlo Church Motto:

    EVERYBODY’S WELCOME.
    NOBODY’S PERFECT.
    ANYTHING’S POSSIBLE.

    Always be wary of places where “anything’s possible”!

  4. *Huge* props to Daniel & Grace for speaking truth to power. It had to be tough for him to stand up to a father who’s been an overbearing presence for most of his life. The fact that it was necessary is just utterly bizarre. Like, this became apparent to Ortberg at least a year earlier, and he left his kid in a children’s ministries position? That is pants-on-head crazy.

  5. It was this incident, and the follow up by a “Christian” “journalist” (who shall remain unnamed) where Daniel Lavery was deadnamed, that convinced me I could no longer be in the church. I don’t want any part of this nonsense. Daniel Lavery did the right thing by trying to get his family and his former church to deal with his brother, and they didn’t. Instead, they tried to say that Daniel couldn’t judge at all, because he’s transgender. And there were SO MANY PEOPLE that didn’t care about the grave potential for child sexual abuse because the person reporting was a horrible, horrible sinner because he’s transgender.

    Daniel Lavery is, and remains, a hero for pursuing this. Of all the people involved, he and his wife Grace are probably the only two that had their heads screwed on right, yet they were vilified because they are transgender.

    Tired, tired, TIRED of this nonsense.

  6. so difficult.

    i’m in awe of Daniel and Grace’s courage, for the sake of the least of these.

    they put the least of these –vulnerable ones at the lowest end of the power spectrum– before self and convenience. they did this at great cost to themselves.
    ———–

    i’m concerned for the brother, for his safety, for his future.

    so difficult, and complicated.
    ———-

    but i am in awe of Daniel and Grace.

  7. I hope John Ortberg fans will see the truth: Daniel Lavery had the courage to speak up against his father, a powerful person in the world of “Christian celebrities.” May we all have that kind of courage, for the sake of abuse victims. This is serious business that can’t be swept under the rug.

  8. Oldster: John Ortberg fans

    Therein lies the problem with megachurch-mania. These are by and large cults of personality with loyal fan bases which support “pastor”, no matter what. Baseball players have fans, musicians have fans, actors have fans … preachers of the Gospel should not!

  9. It’s mind boggling that John and Nancy Ortberg did not, at very minimum, endure their son would no longer have any physical access at all to children at their church. Really to not get him help and protect all children from him is just beyond belief. I’m thankful for Daniel’s courage and am sorry for the pain that must accompany all that’s happened.

  10. I just completed my school’s mandatory reporter training today (online course). Daniel and Grace did exactly what any mandatory reporter would do-they reported. Unfortunately, the chef reporter, Rev Ortberg, seems to have left the building.

  11. I remember when this story first came out, Daniel reported his father John Ortburg as saying that what was disclosed about this “volunteer” having attractions to young children was the same as being homosexual. Can you even imagine??? And, after all the Ortburgs’ outrage about Bill Hybel’s abuses, and their strong moral stance, to find this out about them really did shock me to my core. I know it shouldn’t have after Doug Phillips (that one rocked my world, sent me here and opened my eyes) and so many others but I believed they were one of the good guys, fighting for the vulnerable and abused. I really don’t trust anyone in church leadership any more 🙁

  12. Leah Jacobs,

    “I really don’t trust anyone in church leadership any more”
    ++++++++++++++++

    as i see it, too many church leaders have too much to lose.

    too much to risk losing by doing the right thing when it costs to do the right thing.

    it’s the way the church system is set up.

    i don’t think this is ever how it was supposed to be.

  13. There’s so much there, as there was before, like that item per the post with Ortberg saying the son evades therapy because a “weird one” might “decide to report anyways”. Given that his website still has nary a word evident in the about page about his leave taking etc., seems that there may be a lot that doesn’t get reported…

  14. I still can’t believe this happened – it’s like John Ortberg lives in an alternative reality. Do you know what would happen to you if you did this in a secular organisation? It would be over: your project, your job, your reputation, your employability, you would be shunned by disgusted colleagues & you’d hopefully be facing some criminal charges.

    I feel sorry for John Ortberg III, in terms of finding himself with abhorrent & perverse thoughts & feelings towards children, & apparently so strong he’d rather commit suicide than be kept away from them for their own protection. But that is where it starts & ends. I have HUGE concerns for the children who’ve been in his care or company both here & abroad, & given his fears over things on his computer being discovered I’m going to be honest & say that I feel it is extremely unlikely that he has not acted on his overwhelming urges in some way & offended against children. I hope I’m wrong, but given everything else about this disturbingly awful situation I just don’t see any plausible factors preventing this, especially as he is now 30 years old.

    If this doesn’t end the Ortberg’s ministry then there really is no justice in this world.

  15. For what it’s worth, I know a martied couple who live around the Mountain View location of Menlo Church. They were aware of this situation during the earlier iteration and let their neighborhood “loop” (a bulletin board?) know about it. They are most definitely aware of the current iteration. I don’t know if they’ve let the neighborhood “loop” know about it yet, but I would not be surprised.

  16. Also, can I just point out the heavy irony of this whole situation only coming to light and moving forward because the despised transgender son pushed it? Had it been up to the very righteous Ortberg family and leadership of Menlo Church, people would still not know that John Ortberg put children at risk because he had some warped idea of therapy???

    There is something exceedingly warped about an organization that trumpets its own righteousness (despite the sloganeering on the church website), yet despises in more than one way the person who put kids first before his own reputation throughout all of this.

    When this first came out at the beginning of February and I saw the way Daniel Lavery was being treated, I was done, absolutely done. If anything I’m still more than done today.

    The ortberg family anf Menlo Church owe Daniel Lavery an apology.

  17. I agree.

    Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: Also, can I just point out the heavy irony of this whole situation only coming to light and moving forward because the despised transgender son pushed it? Had it been up to the very righteous Ortberg family and leadership of Menlo Church, people would still not know that John Ortberg put children at risk because he had some warped idea of therapy???

  18. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: There is something exceedingly warped about an organization that trumpets its own righteousness (despite the sloganeering on the church website), yet despises in more than one way the person who put kids first before his own reputation throughout all of this.

    Don’t do as I do; do as I say. An attitude known in church circles as hypocrisy.

  19. Beakerj: I feel sorry for John Ortberg III, in terms of finding himself with abhorrent & perverse thoughts & feelings towards children, & apparently so strong he’d rather commit suicide than be kept away from them for their own protection.

    Agreed.

  20. What else is there to say when the secular world does a better job of keeping ‘Chester the Molester’ away from kids?

  21. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes:
    For what it’s worth, I know a martied couple who live around the Mountain View location of Menlo Church. They were aware of this situation during the earlier iteration and let their neighborhood “loop” (a bulletin board?) know about it. They are most definitely aware of the current iteration. I don’t know if they’ve let the neighborhood “loop” know about it yet, but I would not be surprised.

    Oh that’s interesting, I wonder if we know each other. But most of my connections are not following this story afaik

  22. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,

    it’s amazing what you find out sometimes that people “know” in churches. I left as a missionary from a church in the mid-80s, and came back to a church a decade later that was a shell of its former self because of an adulterous pastor and a layman in leadership who turned out to be a child-molester. I didn’t know any of this stuff, but most of the leadership board and many of the members were aware before it all blew up and the church split in many different directions.

  23. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,

    Many fundamentalist AND evangelicals have use the “straw man” approach to discredit any person questioning what the “dear leaders says/do” for decades. In fact, I was “trained” in that mode of “defending the faith” over 40 years ago! Those pagan/secular humanist do not know what true rightousness is and we only obey “secular authorities” because the NT says we should. (implicit is that “we” only know what true righteousness is).

  24. The ‘preacher’ forced the issue and got his son exposed… Daniel had no other choice. Again the ‘preacher’ was intoxicated by his power. His bogus biblical god given powers of which he and many others are addicted to are creating life long grief for thousands of children!! His ‘power’ is actually an immoral evil stench flowing out of churches across the world… A force that has to be dealt with… God help him and his inflicted son… Thank you Daniel for your brave courage.

  25. One last comment:
    My definition of the Devil = a lying cleric who covers up for a child rapist. They are the scum of the earth and are the most dangerous most vile people of the human species.

  26. Rich: Like, this became apparent to Ortberg at least a year earlier, and he left his kid in a children’s ministries position? That is pants-on-head crazy.

    Or “pants-on-head” stupid. Although in this case, the distinction might not mean much anyway.

  27. I agree that the son of Rev. Ortberg should have been reported, expelled from the church, and the authorities notified and his computer confiscated. The Rev. Ortberg and his wife, Nancy must be removed from their posts at Menlo Presbyterian Church. No discussion!! Hands down….the son should have been referred for therapy as soon as the family found out about Jr’s sexual struggles with children and adolescents!!!
    As for Mr. and Mrs. Lavery, they did the right thing, obviously, but they can’t take the moral high ground here!! Their Social media posts are vile and vulgar. Children and adolescents have access to their filthy talk which is in its own right a form of child abuse!! And this has nothing to do with them being transgender….there are many decent people who are transgender and do not exhibit such vulgar and obscene verbage, etc. Mrs. Lavery in particular talks about sex parties, etc. Teenagers see this and many children have their own phones and can see this garbage! Mr. Daniel Lavery seems to be a decent person who has been lead astray by Mrs. Grace Lavery’s shannanigans!! Please take a look at Jazz Jennings and Caitlin Jenner who are positive role models for our young people, especially those who struggle with Gender Dysphoria which is a real medical condition!!

  28. Linn: an adulterous pastor and a layman in leadership who turned out to be a child-molester

    … who most likely knew each other’s sin and covered for each other … happens all the time in the Christian Industrial Complex.

    Linn: most of the leadership board and many of the members were aware before it all blew up and the church split

    … to which God will hold them accountable.

  29. For what it’s worth, Ortberg’s daughter Laura disputed the validity of Daniel Lavery’s recent statements on her twitter feed yesterday. No details, just general claims that things were not exactly as presented. I went to go look that up again, but I see she’s deleted her account.

  30. If Johnny has had these types of feelings since he was five years old, I think it’s very likely that he himself was abused. That may be part of what drives John II to keep it all a secret. I’m not implying that he was/is an abuser, but such a thing is a matter of deep shame, especially for a high-profile minister and his family, when all kinds of assumptions are made regarding such a situation. Hope they all can find healing.

  31. Alucius:
    For what it’s worth, Ortberg’s daughter Laura disputed the validity of Daniel Lavery’s recent statements on her twitter feed yesterday. No details, just general claims that things were not exactly as presented. I went to go look that up again, but I see she’s deleted her account.

    I think Laura’s comments should be looked at with significant skepticism. She was utterly vague in her claims – if you’re going to say that someone else is using mistruths or whatever, then you need to be specific. And there’s a response by Alexis Coe (apparently someone who was in a group with both Laura and Danny), saying:

    “Last year, Danny called to tell me this. We’re a part of a group that included his sister, Laura, who called & asked me to let her get through the entire story before I responded. She proceeded to tell me the *exact same story.*

    Today, she vaguely called DL a liar. He is not.”

  32. Leah Jacobs: I remember when this story first came out, Daniel reported his father John Ortburg as saying that what was disclosed about this “volunteer” having attractions to young children was the same as being homosexual. Can you even imagine???

    I can.
    Easily.
    Because in Christianese there is NO Sin worse than HOMOSEXUALITY, the Unpardonable Super-Super-Sin.

  33. Beakerj: I still can’t believe this happened – it’s like John Ortberg lives in an alternative reality.

    The same alternative reality as Caligula, Nero, Domitian, Commodua, Kimg Jong-Il, Kim Jong-Un, Yertle the Turtle, the kid in that classic Twilight Zone
    The Alternative Reality where I Get To Dominate All.
    The Alternative Reality where I Always Get My Own Way — ALWAYS!

  34. Max: Linn: an adulterous pastor and a layman in leadership who turned out to be a child-molester

    … who most likely knew each other’s sin and covered for each other … happens all the time in the Christian Industrial Complex.

    “One Hand Washes the Other…”

  35. Rich: “Last year, Danny called to tell me this. We’re a part of a group that included his sister, Laura, who called & asked me to let her get through the entire story before I responded. She proceeded to tell me the *exact same story.*

    Today, she vaguely called DL a liar. He is not.”

    Thanks for this, I hadn’t seen it.

  36. This is a situation that causes deep grief in my heart.

    I don’t want to speculate what I do not know. But beyond the “ministry” side of things, the brokenness of adult children in this family makes me wonder where the spiritual picture went so wrong. May of the churches (as discussed on this blog site) with those who try to serve Christ in this culture might have really been lacking in the Holy Spirit. It seems that the negative side of culture is affecting the church/the believers in serious ways. Without a genuine and enduring revival we already find it hard to keep our church family healthy, how can we bring real light, hope and joy to the world around us? The time is certainly urgent.

    How shall we pray?

  37. birdoftheair,

    “May of the churches (as discussed on this blog site) with those who try to serve Christ in this culture might have really been lacking in the Holy Spirit.”
    +++++++++++++++

    I know how the Holy Spirit helps me personally, not sure how HS helps a corporate institution.

    I know with myself, HS doesn’t prevent me from disregarding common sense, & doesn’t prevent me from doing selfish, stupid, & careless things.

    The Holy Spirit is not insurance against one’s own stupidity.

    i sort of think they are all separate things.

    -Interact with Holy Spirit (as one way to say it).

    -Listen to your own voice of common sense.

    -Get informed on best practices, consulting best sources (which will be secular

    -Make a good plan

  38. birdoftheair: How shall we pray?

    Praying is fine if one cannot take other actions, but we need to do more. We all need to make noise in our own churches if we attend them. My church is still closed because of the pandemic, but my habit there is to ask critical questions early and often. The people who lead the church need to respond to members, at the very least.

    Whether or not you belong to a church, you can think critically and ask questions. If your neighbor tries to sell you a wooden spoon with a Bible verse on it, designed for striking children, take issue with that. Even saying in a polite voice, “I’m not interested,” and immediately walking away, will send a message.

    Our society has far too much cruelty in the name of God. When we do nothing, we perpetuate the suffering of others.

  39. birdoftheair,

    Well, as a survivor for 50yrs and a advocate for 20yrs, I most say that your acknowledgment of the truth was nice. But what followed about sin and society negated your positive comments. The issue here is a potentially dangerous person was identified with no action. Period. Your opinions about morality has not a damn thing to do with this specific issue. Sexual assault of a child should be dealt with as a CRIME…Sin is something to discuss along with morals and society at a later date. Oh yes you do have a ‘straw man’ to attack… I am a Catholic apostate!

  40. birdoftheair:
    How shall we pray?

    You’ve made a *massive* assumption that the problem with Ortberg was that he wasn’t praying, or that he wasn’t praying properly. I don’t think the problem was prayer – the problem was the absolute lack of critical thinking. The problem, IMHO, starts with the notion that if you just pray about stuff and “listen to God” or whatever, then you’ll come up with good solutions. The truth is that you’ve got to use reason and evidence, get input from actual subject-matter experts, etc.

    Feelings/promptings/prayer are *not* reliable pathways to truth (where we define truth as “that with is congruent with physical reality”, rather than some wishy-washy notion of truth).

  41. birdoftheair,

    Typical reaction for someone paining and gaslighting. Morality, society and sin are discussions for another forum discussion. Potential sexual assault of a child is a crime… and that is the issue here. Period.

  42. dainca:
    If Johnny has had these types of feelings since he was five years old, I think it’s very likely that he himself was abused.That may be part of what drives John II to keep it all a secret.I’m not implying that he was/is an abuser, but such a thing is a matter of deep shame, especially for a high-profile minister and his family, when all kinds of assumptions are made regarding such a situation.Hope they all can find healing.

    Anecdotally, it’s apparently a common experience among pedophiles to have early childhood sexualization (not necessarily molestation)

  43. Linn: t’s amazing what you find out sometimes that people “know” in churches.

    The whisper network is powerful.

  44. Rich: She was utterly vague in her claims – if you’re going to say that someone else is using mistruths or whatever, then you need to be specific.

    Hard agree. Vague claims of lies are usually, themselves, lies imo. If someone said something you dispute, dispute it clearly. Otherwise it’s all ‘i interpret this tiny portion of the story in a different way so they are ‘lying’.

    Vagueness is a tell.

  45. birdoftheair: the negative side of culture is affecting the church/the believers in serious ways. Without a genuine and enduring revival …

    … we will end up where we are headed!

    Currently, there is not enough spiritual power in the organized church to blow the dust off a peanut. Church folks (both pulpit and pew) have been in the world and of the world for way too long. The average church member doesn’t scare the devil much when they get up in the morning. Jesus still shouts from Heaven “Repent or else!”

  46. Mark Belenchia:
    One last comment:
    My definition of the Devil = a lying cleric who covers up for a child rapist. They are the scum of the earth and are the most dangerous most vile people of the human species.

    “NOWHERE DO WE CORRUPT SO EFFECTIVELY AS AT THE FOOT OF THE ENEMY’S ALTAR!”
    — Screwtape

  47. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: There is something exceedingly warped about an organization that trumpets its own righteousness (despite the sloganeering on the church website), yet despises in more than one way the person who put kids first before his own reputation throughout all of this.

    The louder the Virtue Signalling, the greater the Corruption.

  48. dainca,

    Yes, I thought the same thing. I doubt a 5year old would have these feelings without having been abused first. An adult or perhaps a slightly older child may have molested Johnny. I hope he will bring that to the light if that is the case.

  49. Li Li,

    Yep, & you can see the fall out of this choice clearly in the comments section. One of them said something very insightful here:
    ‘What is truly disturbing in this is that the church seems to think the only actual human beings are the pedophile volunteer and his preacher dad. The whistleblower doesn’t count because he’s trans, the children don’t count because they’re just property, hell, the congregation doesn’t count because they’re only there to pay the church.’

  50. Max,

    Mark Belenchia,

    elastigirl,

    Friend,

    Rich,

    I thank each one of you for your feedback here. And I read all of your comments with appreciation. Let me say this: I am not trying to excuse anyone here for anything sinful in commission or in omission. I am not trying to turn the attention away from the issue at hand. I am only looking at the overall, deeper problems with the “church” today and seek prayer for all of us and all of “them”, in addition to exposing darkness with Light.

    No, church goers or members should not play the worldly game of pleasing authority figures at any cost. Yes, people in Jesus’ name must speak with integrity and walk in the light. Open and secret crimes must be dealt with, especially if leaders are involved.

    In the meantime, I surely hope to see a huge change in the way churches behave, where leaders and ministers put their passions in. Power and authority become dangerous tools in the hearts of unholy men and women.

  51. birdoftheair: I surely hope to see a huge change in the way churches behave, where leaders and ministers put their passions in. Power and authority become dangerous tools in the hearts of unholy men and women.

    We can talk about it and talk about it and talk about it, but until the people of God get serious about it, change will be elusive. The answer truly lies with:

    “IF my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, THEN I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.” (2 Chronicles 7:14)

    I’ve got to believe that He would heal our churches, too … and replace unfaithful leaders with those who can be trusted, who have a passion for shepherding God’s people with love as they fulfill the Great Commission together.

    “IF my people” … but will we?

  52. Max: “IF my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, THEN I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.” (2 Chronicles 7:14)

    We are Called by His name, will we
    Humble ourselves, and Pray,
    Seek His face,
    and Turn from our wicked ways, then……

  53. birdoftheair: then……

    To activate the “Then Will I” of God, God’s people must do something: humble ourselves, pray, repent, and seek His face. This sort of runs contrary to the New Calvinist view of God’s predetermined plan for everything, suggesting that we can get His attention and cause Him to heal our land. Thus, we shouldn’t rest in “This is just the way it is” and get off our behinds to repent and pray!

  54. Max,

    You are right. God does not have a static or rigid plan, He is the Living God who interacted with Job, Moses, …and interacts with each of us today. I have never swallowed the hyperCalvinism. I am glad that many people here see the faults of such teachings.

  55. Julie Stough: As for Mr. and Mrs. Lavery, they did the right thing, obviously, but they can’t take the moral high ground here!! Their Social media posts are vile and vulgar. Children and adolescents have access to their filthy talk which is in its own right a form of child abuse!!

    Julie, what is your point here? They certainly do have the moral high ground because social media posts that you deem ‘vile & vulgar’ are just not in the same universe as allowing a paedophile with compulsions towards children to have access to children & to want to hide a laptop because of what’s on it.

    Daniel Lavery is not a Christian, & is not, as far as I know, seeking out children & adolescents as followers on social media, so your claim that his posts are basically ‘child abuse’ is ridiculous, frankly. Why should we expect him & his wife to live lives according to Christian morality as non-believers? If children are accessing social media where are their parents in keeping them safe in the online world?

    You clearly have something in mind as to why you need to attempt to smear Daniel & his wife, presenting them as no better than child abusers. That is a great example of the muddy thinking in Christian circles that sweeps horrific evils under the carpet & smears the whistleblowers instead of sins being brought into the light & dealt with properly.

    John Ortberg did something so wrong & so misguided here – I speak as someone involved in child protection professionally – that it is hard to get your head around it. His non-Christian trans son acted to protect the church’s children by making sure that the threat from his own brother was known & acted on. He even sent his brother the names of specialist therapists who could help him with his disorder. That is the moral highground, by anyone’s standards.

  56. Danny implied yesterday that he was put in a similar situation when he was a child. Presumably this has helped his strong moral stance here. The text of his tweets:

    It should not be this hard. It should not take this much, or this long.

    I was knowingly exposed to similar risk repeatedly as a child. There is no version where “nothing happens.” I was not the victim of a crime, but I was regularly terrified, hypervigilant, baffled, and left to fend for myself.

    As upsetting as the contact was, I was also harmed by the response of the adults in charge — avoidance, vagueness, no explanation, a continued absence of supervision. I asked for help and nothing changed. This made me doubt my sense of safety and reality.

    https://twitter.com/daniel_m_lavery/status/1278831043206881288?s=21

  57. Julie Stough,

    I understand what you are trying to say.
    We all agree that children should be protected from people with unholy motives and deeds.
    Most people agree that clean and healthy speech is preferred in the public space for public consumption.
    We would like to protect all the children and young people from all harm, physical, mental, and emotional.

    Thank you for being sensitive.

  58. birdoftheair: Thank you for being sensitive

    Is it sensitivity, or is it sin levelling in order to discredit Daniel Lavery somehow?

    You may not understand that on Twitter you have to follow people deliberately, in the main, to see what they write? Unless you follow others who regularly like or retweet the Laverys you are just not going to see what they write. You actually have to seek it out. So, I’m not sure how people have seen so much of it if they don’t want to.

    My problem with this is that it is just another example of where Church people have done horrendous wrongs, but somehow because of far lesser issues by those who aren’t Christians, these are downplayed. I’ve seen many examples of this recently with people who casually express racist views, but opponents are somehow worse because they may use a swear word. It’s this kind of surface-led critique that misses the entire point, & enables really heinous sin to be ‘polite-washed’.

    I personally think the Laverys deserve thanks from the overall Christian body for their costly intervention to keep church & other children safe. The fallout of this for them will be substantial.

  59. Beakerj,

    Danny Lavery is a very gifted writer and all around decent person. He was kind enough to allow me to subscribe to his blog without paying due to financial hardships I was experiencing. (He charges a minimal amount in order to help pay for hardware, software and tech support for his blog.) He is, without doubt, one of the kindest and most ethical journalist and writer of fiction that anyone could name. (One of his standing gigs is an advice columnist on Slate.com)

    He has had to deal with all of this while simultaneously having to make the decision to transition, to begin the process, and to make it public. That is a *huge* thing, and every single aspect is extremely stressful, especially given the tremendous disdain and lack of compassion and empathy for trans people in our society.

    Danny and Grace made a very difficult choice in this. They did the right thing.

    To my mind, they have a tremendous amount of integrity that is conspicuously lacking among many US churches and people who call themselves Christians.

    Please, those of you who don’t understand what being trans entails: educate yourself. It’s not “immoral” or “sinful,” it just IS. And in that, it’s no different than having been born with one of many biological conditions that are generally referred to ax “intersex.” (There seems to be a refusal to acknowledge these physical conditions among evangelicals, as well as by many people outside of the evangelical echo chamber.)

    I find it inexcusable that anyone would use the combox here (and wherever else) to denounce both Danny and Grace based on their gender identities. Please, show some kindness and allow them to simply be who they are. Danny even had to changen his surname as a result of the fallout from this incident. It’s painful to see how some are treating him.

  60. numo,

    I hear you. I find the attempts to smear him & his wife disturbing. Far better just to accept that some very influential & previously well-thought of Christians did the wrong thing, & conspired to keep it quiet.

    That’s the only reason I can come up with as to why people feel the need to point a finger anywhere other than squarely at John & Nancy Ortberg.

    I’m still reeling at the idea that John Ortberg genuinely though that the best way to treat his son’s abhorrent urges towards children was to keep him working with children. An error of that magnitude around paedophilia is ludicrous, in want of a better word, though misguidedly-evil may also suffice. It’s so far off good practice in both child protection & duty of care to staff as to not even be on any page anywhere. I don’t think it’s possible to bang this drum too loudly.

  61. Beakerj,

    Danny posted an explanation of his surname chsnge on Slate a while back. He went into the reasons, though didn’t want to focus on them too much, if that makes sense.

    It was revelatory and horrible, knowing even the very few details he wrote about.

    And every anti-Danny comment is inevitably anti-trans. It’s really hard to see.

  62. I’ve read a number of John Ortberg’s books, which have helped me grow in my faith. As a result, I’m aware of a public piece of info that no one seems to be discussing: Ortberg has an PhD in clinical psychology (Fuller Theological Seminary).

    Because of his professional training, it’s reasonable to expect that Ortberg should know that Johnny needs professional help (especially with any concerns regarding potential suicidality) and that steps should be taken to protect children.

    I am heartbroken by this situation, especially for Daniel, who has apparently lost his birth family.

  63. Susan K,

    That’s one of the reasons I’m so shocked by Ortberg’s conduct. He should have known better & this lapse of judgement shows he has no place in ministry. If he can’t keep children safe then he doesn’t belong there.

  64. numo: And every anti-Danny comment is inevitably anti-trans. It’s really hard to see.

    It shows, I think, a lack of knowledge about, let alone knowing any actual trans individuals.

    The idea that an adult transitioning is in any way equivalent to paedophilia (or for that matter that being gay is, which Ortberg said) is nonsensical. The difference around power equality & genuine consent make that point very clearly.

    Their only similarity is in them all being divergent from a ‘classical’ Christian position of consenting adult heterosexuality where felt gender matches biological sex, within marriage. But to say that makes them equivalent is like saying someone who runs a red light is equivalent to a mass murderer, which is blatantly untrue.

    I really feel for Danny here. He is paying an enormous price for doing the right thing when his father wouldn’t.

  65. Beakerj,

    It does show a distinct lack of knowledge, but i think in the vast majority of cases where people in the US are anti-trans (meaning all people, not just white evangelicals), that is due to a deliberate refusal tolearn anything about it. It’s much the same with the biological conditions that are called “intersex” in medical and scientific circles.

    It seems to me that it’s FAR too easy for many to make trans people, transwomen especially, into targets. That is both figurative and all too literal, given the number of transwomen (in particular, Black transwomen) who are murdered in this country every year.

    To refuse to accept people due to gender identity and/or sexual orientation is to deny their humanity, in a way that i think has nothing to do with whatever religion the people who say such things profess (or, as in many cases, no religion at alll).

    I find it painfully analogous to the incredible racism that’s not only resurgent but, for many, socially acceptable – even approved – by far too many people in the US today, from the top down. It’s a totally unconscionable way to devalue the humanity of Black and brown people, but especially Black peop,e.

    In fact, thr kind of rscist rhetoric that’s being indulged in by many is identical to such attitudes during the 400÷ years that chattel slavery of Afrucan and African-descended people in this country.

    And *those* arguments are basically the same ones used by anti-trans people, up to and includung J.K. Rowling. (For a writer of fiction, she’s oddly unable or unwilling to imagine whst it might be lime to be not-straiight, not-cisgender.)

    At any rate, like i said just upthread, we do indeed need to educate ourselves – and I’m very much including myself in that “we.” I’m both straight and cis, and wish i understood more clearly what life is like for those who aren’t. I was an uninformed and bigoted (as a kind of camouflage) person during the tears i spent in evangelical circles. There was great hostility toward all LGBTQ+ folks in that world, although there certainly were gay and lesbian folks hiding in plain sight in those churches. I can’t imagine how they felt, and must feel still.

    Back to Danny Lavery: he is, per his own writing, and his actions in this situation, more obviously Christ-like than an whole lot of supposed Xtians.

    If i had to choose who I’d rather hang out with, well… Danny and Grace. Not the kind of fearful, narrow-minded individuals who have been attacking them for doing the right thing. Nor with those who have attacked Danny’s writing – though i truly wonder if they’ve actually read anything by him, as he write for The Toast (a nowdefunct blog), has published some pretty hilarious books under gis former name (Mallory Ortberg). His parodies of classic lit (if it had been written as a series of tweets) are especially choice.

    And he’s clearly still fascinated by the Bible. A few weeks ago he published a post about the vision in Ezekiel ch. 1. It was reverent, but also, he was and is amazed by the imagery of that vision, and the sometimes distinctly strange descriptions of it.

    In short, he spent a grest deal of time imagining and attempting to visualize it all, in a way that puts the way we US Xtians tend to treat the texts of the Bible to shame.

  66. beakerj, i have a reply to you in moderation, but given how full Dee’s plate is, i don’t know when, or even if, it will be published.

    We can always talk off-list, though.

  67. Poor John Ortberg…his daughter/son (Mallory Daniel) is a self-centered nutjob…his actual son seems to be a good guy trying to seek help for the thought sins the devil is trying to afflict him with and the church is gleefully joining the mob with pitchforks and flaming torches.

    The 1st time I saw “Mallory” she was the worst contestant to have ever appeared on Jeopardy. It was a trainwreck.

    He who is without sin, let him cast the 1st stone AND air your family’s dirty laundry online.

  68. Joy,

    So you’re saying you’re happy to let John Ortberg Jnr look after your children, particularly the boys aged between 8 & 13?

  69. And now the story has gone global on Huffpost & Yahoo. Another total own goal for the church.

  70. Joy,

    Rejoice with those who rejoice. Weep with those who weep. Perhaps we should also grieve with those who grieve. There is plenty of grief around, including the church.
    Colossians 1:27 says “Christ in you, the hope of glory!” The Living Redeemer is our only hope and strength.