A Flaw in the Caring Well Curriculum: Parents, If Your Church Allows Sex Offenders in Church and Won’t Tell Members, Your Children Are at Risk

 

Think about this quote. “Malevolence takes a bite out off your spirit. Just sitting with it, just talking with people who consciously and deliberately exploit others, feels like being beaten. Over the years, l have seen many therapists burn out and leave the field entirely. [Refers to treating sex offenders, p6]” ― Anna Salter, Predators: Pedophiles, Rapists, and Other Sex Offenders


Let me start off this post by making a few comments.

  1. Some pedophiles come to churches because they believe that they will be trusted and will have access to the children and teens.
  2. It is not the fault of a church when a pedophile shows up. It is the fault of the church if they cover up that a pedophile is present. If you are in a  church, it is highly likely that a pedophile or two will be present. If you are in a mega church, there are probably more.
  3. Pedophilia is not just a simple sin. It is a complex, psychiatric condition. In the best of circumstances, the pedophile can learn to control his impulses. However they will likely struggle with this disorder for rest of their lives. Do not make the mistake that, if they come to church and *come to Jesus,* they will be healed. Any student of the Bible knows that not everyone who has a profound, lifelong psychiatric compulsion gets healed.They can, with painful and hard work, learn to control their impulses but it is terribly difficult.
  4. Pedophiles are charismatic individuals and know how to gain the trust of the church members and the church leaders. Yep, that’s right. They are good at fooling people. I have been writing about this for years and I am smart enough to know that I, too, can be fooled by a wily pedophile.

I wrote a post about a problem that I saw in the Caring Well curriculum in Another TWW Tutorial: What’s Missing? Caring Well/Summit Church Curriculum Appears to Want Registered Sex Offenders to Feel No Shame in Church:


  • RSO=registered sex offender
  • This lesson on bringing offenders into a church is found in Lesson 10 in the Caring Well curriculum.

The policy appears to assume that the RSO is experiencing emotional difficulty with the consequences of *past* actions.

Of course coming to grips with past predatory behavior is difficult and it darn well should be. The RSO has harmed another person who has had to live with the longterm consequences of being abused. The long term emotional consequences for the VICTIM are downright devastating. Somehow, this is glossed over in favor of the delicate sensibilities of your everyday church predator.

The church leaders want you, lowly member, to believe that the RSO is actually experiencing emotional pain due to their heartsick realization that their past actions have ruined another person’s life.  But, what if the RSO is doing what predators do best-playing games in order to manipulate church leaders and gain access to the children? The recidivism rate is something that must be considered. It is not inconsequential.

We recognize that wrestling with the consequences of past actions can be emotionally difficult. We want to reiterate throughout this process that you are offered full forgiveness because of Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection.

Dear RSO, don’t live with a sense of shame. What?

I think it is emotionally and spiritually valid to live with a sense of shame over heinous actions. Shouldn’t a man who has molested all of his foster children, as well neighborhood kids, be ashamed and even wrestle with it for the rest of his life? Good night! One might think they are discussing how not to feel shame for exceeding the speed limit.

There is also an assumption that the RSO’s expression of shame is real as opposed to a game they play in order to manipulate adults in order to gain access to the children. (Another hint.)

We recognize that wrestling with the consequences of past actions can be emotionally difficult. We want to reiterate throughout this process that you are offered full forgiveness because of Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection. We do not want you to live with a sense of shame.

Most of the members of the church will not be told about the presence of an RSO and that is dangerous.
The lowly members of The Summit will not be told about the RSO who is attending church. This is a dangerous plan.The Summit is a huge church with tons of kids in their youth programs. It’s really nice that the high up leaders are aware of the presence of a predator but they are NOT the ones who care the most about the well being of the children. Parents are the ones who care and love their children and are naturally protective. They should be told of the presence of an RSO.

Who would know about this arrangement and agreement? Those who would know about this arrangement are: the pastors of the Summit Church, the lay elders at your campus, campus security teams, and the point person(s) over children and student ministries at your campus.

Are they afraid to hurt the feelings of the predator by *outing* them?

That is ridiculous. These predators are designated Registered Sex Offenders because they are publicly registered due to their crimes. The cat is already out of the bag. If this RSO wants to come to church, he should be willing to allow his picture to be posted around the public areas. Why wouldn’t he unless he has some ulterior plans? Do you want to know how serious this person is about needing help to overcome his problem? Ask to post his picture around the church and see if he becomes angry.

end excerpt


Here is the story of Newspring Church which appeared to do it all right and it wasn’t enough.

Directingt Holy Rage at NewSpring Church, Once Again. Parents, Watch Out for Your Kids.

NewSpring Church is a huge church in South Carolina.


From the TWW post:

A volunteer was accused of molesting 14 kids! And guess what? They should have known. They had cameras all over the place but no one reviewed the footage. Maybe the fog machines were blurring their vision??

The Post and Courier reported in Volunteer accused of assaulting 14 kids is 4th alleged predator in SC megachurch.

On Nov. 25, Hazlett was watching over a group of children — none older than 5 — in a portion of NewSpring’s KidSpring ministry called the Tree House. During the session, Hazlett escorted a 3-year-old boy to the restroom. During that visit, he sexually assaulted the boy, affidavits show.

The following day, the boy’s parents complained to NewSpring that Hazlett had an “inappropriate interaction” with their son, the church would later tell worshipers. Church officials decided to check their video surveillance system to see what had happened.

More than three dozen security cameras are situated in the rooms that comprise the children’s ministry, according to court filings, including at least one camera that is trained on panel doors that open to the restroom where Hazlett took the boy. Footage from that camera showed Hazlett looking around to make sure no one was watching before he sexually assaulted the boy, according to an arrest affidavit.

Church leaders reviewed footage from the cameras dating back three months — as far back as their surveillance system has storage. After observing what NewSpring staff described as “inappropriate conduct by Hazlett,” the church reported their findings to law enforcement, according to a letter the church sent to worshipers.

The leaders produced crocodile tears and claimed they did their best.

In a prepared statement, NewSpring officials said the incident occurred despite their best efforts to protect children.

The church also said it has plans to create a fund that will be made available to families who have accused Hazlett.

“We know this happened on our watch, and though we have taken great measures over the years to protect our children, evil found a way to breach our best efforts,” the statement read. “This devastates us to the core.”’

end excerpt


Let’s review what NewSpring did right.

Background checks

I recently had someone say to me that the kids were safe at his megachurch because they did background checks.  Background checks are only effective for catching those who had been arrested and convicted. That means the vast majority of sex offenders have never been caught.

Two volunteers are in a room with the kids at all times and they even have extra float helpers to take kids to the bathroom.

The bathroom doors even had a split opening so people could see in at all times. Great idea .

They even had cameras placed in every room, even focused at the door to the bathroom.

Pretty darn awesome.

What did they do wrong?

So what happened? Why did all the kids allegedly get molested? Parents, mega churches are so busy running their programs that it is quite easy for someone to molest children. In this situation (allegedly) it got so busy that the male volunteer took the kids into the bathroom because they really had to go. There appeared to be little chance that these kids could be molested because they were easily seen from the waist up and there were cameras pointed at the bathrooms. The volunteers thought it was logical to let the male teacher take the kids in because they could see him. He was far smarter than they were.

One little boy told his mom. She marched into the church and said something happened. Did they see anything on the videos? Well, no. They didn’t bother to regularly review all of the video feeds because they were so gosh darn busy and frazzled.

When they reviewed the videos, they saw the evidence of the volunteer allegedly  molesting the kids.

What did other churches do wrong?

There allegedly had been reports of this guy elsewhere but those churches didn’t report it to the next church. Amy Smith calls it “Passing the trash.” They appear to have just gotten rid of him and didn’t give a hoot for the children in the next church.

What is the lesson for parents? Parents MUST be informed if a registered sex offender is allowed in the church building when kids are there.

Once again, peodphiles and molesters will come to the church. These are the ones that you don’t know about. The Caring Well curriculum is flawed in that it assumes that the sex offender is there because he/she is repentant. This assumption has two problems.

  • The offender might be lying.
  • The offender isn’t lying but is still dealing with a profound, likely lifelong compulsion. That means he/she could slip and do so with your child.

Large churches are super busy and, despite good intentions, can easily make mistakes, no matter how noble their intentions.

This sort of thing goes on at many churches. However, recently JD Greear, SBC President and pastor of The Summit Church has come under fire for his church’s child care policies in Southern Baptist president’s church abuse policies under fire.

Not only has The Summit hired Bryan Loritts, who has a history of allegedly mishandling the abuse perpetrated by his voyeur brother in law but, they allow sex offenders own the church without notifying the members.

Parents read what is said here very. very carefully.

(Cheryl) Summers and the Rev. Ashley Easter, a spokeswoman for the group of abuse survivor advocates, also criticized a policy within the SBC’s Caring Well resources. That document, they say, is based on a document from Greear’s church.

The document outlines how registered sex offenders can be incorporated into worship services if they are monitored by “shepherding individuals” and kept away from children and any person or family member of a person they have harmed.

“Abusers should NOT be allowed on church property during services and certainly not in serving/leadership positions,” Easter said.

Brad Hambrick, Summit Church’s pastor of counseling, confirmed that Summit has a policy for registered sex offenders.

Yes, our policy is still to require perpetual supervision and full awareness by the campus security team, elders, and children/student ministry leaders for an individual under RSO status to attend a weekend service,” he said. “All involvement or attendance in children or student ministry is prohibited, even if the RSO’s children are involved. Any involvement in an adult discipleship setting (i.e., a small group) requires the full awareness of their offense and consent of the adults in that setting.”

Parents, they don’t want you to know because they don’t want to *shame* the sex offender. This is downright wrong.

Remember, pedophiles will deal with their psychiatric compulsion for the rest of their lives. This is NOT just a sin. It is a crime as well as a compulsive psychiatric disorder. A church service and a frazzled volunteer looking over their shoulder to make sure the offender isn’t doing something bad is NOT going to prevent the possibility that this offender might go after you child.

This policy is downright foolhardy and appears to ignore the profound nature of this problem. In fact, to me it seems like *cheap grace* exemplified by, as one person claimed to me, ” My God saves the pedophiles.* Yes, but it demands much of the pedophile and even much, much more of us. But it doesn’t demand we sacrifice our children.

Cheap grace means grace sold on the market like cheapjacks’ wares. The sacraments, the forgiveness of sin, and the consolations of religion are thrown away at cut prices. Grace is represented as the Church’s inexhaustible treasury, from which she showers blessings with generous hands, without asking questions or fixing limits. Grace without price; grace without cost! The essence of grace, we suppose, is that the account has been paid in advance; and, because it has been paid, everything can be had for nothing. Since the cost was infinite, the possibilities of using and spending it are infinite. What would grace be if it were not cheap?...

So what should be done instead…

  • The sex offender should continue to deal with his shame. He/she doesn’t get a pass because *Jesus paid it all.* yes, the offender can be saved if he is truly repentant. But he must never be allowed to forget how his actions can profoundly affect the lives of those he molested, is molesting or might molest in the future.
  • Do you want to know how serious the repentance of a sex offender might be? Tell him/her that the church members need to be alerted to his present in the church. If he truly understands his psychiatric disorder, he should agree. Doesn’t he want to prevent more kids from being hurt? In fact, perhaps his picture should be hung up in the church outside of the children’s center and the pastors’ offices to remind everyone what COULD happen.

Parents: you are the ones who truly care for your children.

Church leaders are naive to assume they KNOW what’s best for your children. They are naive if they believe that their staff are fully capable of having eyes on the back of their heads. At this very moment, there are sex offenders who are considering the kind offer of *to feel no shame *and to have a bunch of terribly busy leaders on Saturdays and Sundays, keeping their *eye on things.* They can’t. The church draws all sorts of people from the community and it is open to all. Don’t be fooled into thinking that everyone leading the church loves your children and wants the very best for them like you do.

Only you love your children far more than anyone else and you are protective of them far more than your pastors and your leaders.

I suggest that you do not leave your children in child care programs until your church trusts you enough to tell you who the sex offenders are. You give your church your time and your money. You deserve their respect as the ones who love your children the most.

Bring your kids to the church service. If they start acting up and being loud, funny, or whiney, as all kids get, maybe the busy, annoyed, preaching pastor will get the hint.

And ask yourself a question. Are the church leaders more interested n protecting the *feelings* of a molester who, after claiming he is repentant, is still struggling with his/her disorder?…or…Are they more interested in the safety of your children?

 

Comments

A Flaw in the Caring Well Curriculum: Parents, If Your Church Allows Sex Offenders in Church and Won’t Tell Members, Your Children Are at Risk — 74 Comments

  1. Churches need to inform members if a sex offender is in their midst. And ministers need to report suspected and known cases of child sexual abuse. Too many have not and have gotten away with it and this allows perpetrators freedom to potentially harm more children. There needs to be more of a cost to ministers who fail to report, instead of them basically getting a slap on the wrist with a misdemeanor and maybe a few hundred dollar fine.

    Today I released the latest installment in my series of articles on sexual abuse and the United Pentecostal Church. This one is about multiple cases of child sexual abuse that was not reported by one of their churches in Colorado. The Youth Pastor retained his license and is yet a pastor today. http://blogs.spiritualabuse.org/2020/06/08/colorado-united-pentecostal-sex-abuse-cases-part-3/

  2. Churches should be upfront with many things, not just RSO!! The church leaders are not above us “pew peons”

  3. Excellent post, Dee. Thx.

    Registered sex offenders register for one reason, so all may know what they have done, and what they may be capable of doing again in the future. Registration is designed to prevent future victims, and prevent future crime by a person with a disturbed criminal history.

    The RSO crossed a line into pedophilia. Forgiven, yes. Forgotten, no. If churches provide sanctuary for pedophiles (RSO), they are a Hunting Ground for predation. Families, beware.

    With all due respect to Amy Smith and to this post, one caveat: “passing the trash”. IMHO, “trash” way underestimates the evil of a predator. Passing the predator (which is what he/she is) seems more accurate.

    We take out the trash every day as a chore. A predator, IMHO, is never trash. They are human beings. However, they are deadly human beings, highly dangerous, way beyond simple “trash”. “Trash” almost seems dismissive as a term, although I know it is not meant that way. Dismissive of the person, as well as of the evil.

  4. Lois,

    Thanks for the link. From the post on the link you provided:

    “Youth Pastor Z was an incredible mentor and he seemed to really take it upon himself to reach out to the ‘unpopular’ young men that other youth pastors never paid any attention to. He included the ones from single mother homes, those who came to church without parents, etc. He was known for having youth sleepovers with some of the boys in the group and then taking them all fishing or camping or hiking.”

    BIG RED FLAG!!! After this paragraph, we know what’s coming. YIKES!!!

  5. On the strength of Mt 18:6, it would appear to be warranted to reckon that it would be better for the leaders of these congregations, who implement these policies that can have terrible consequences for vulnerable members of the flock, to have millstones hung about their necks and to be drowned in the sea.

    The fact that they have not been drowned may be evidence that we don’t live in the best of all possible worlds.

  6. ““Yes, our policy is still to require perpetual supervision and full awareness by the campus security team, elders, and children/student ministry leaders for an individual under RSO status to attend a weekend service,” he said.””

    Perpetual supervision like video cameras — which leads back to the newspring situation

  7. “There is also an assumption that the RSO’s expression of shame is real as opposed to a game they play in order to manipulate adults in order to gain access to the children.” (Dee)

    Satan masquerades as an angel of light. Church leaders don’t need to give RSOs wiggle room by being overly-sympathetic to them … that’s not “caring well” for church members. The organized church in far too many places has become too open-minded in this regard to the point that their spiritual brains have fallen out! In my area, RSOs must “social distance” themselves from child-dense structures such as schools, parks, playgrounds and churches. Ministering to them should be done by professionals at other locations than the church … most clergy are not equipped to discern deception (we see it all the time in TWW reports).

  8. We need to remember where RSOs came from and whether they still live there in their minds:

    “They did not see fit to acknowledge God or consider Him worth knowing as their Creator, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do things which are improper and repulsive.” (Romans 1:28)

    The SBC certainly wasn’t aware of the sickness that filled the hundreds of pastors reported in the Houston Chronicle series of articles; nor did they discern their impulses for sexual abuse when they ordained them. Before they became RSOs and prisoners, 400 were church leaders and volunteers with 700 victims!

    Can they be forgiven if truly repentant? Certainly!
    Restored to ministry? No!
    Accepted as church members? With great caution, with full knowledge by other members, and one-on-one surveillance!

  9. I worked for a Christian non-profit in the 90s that ran an alcohol/drug rehab, along with a bunch of other ministries.
    The clients from the rehab often helped with fundraisers, where alcohol was served (?). To me, it a was a total no-brainer when one of the board members realized that it probably wasn’t good to have recently sober clients serving beer/wine to dinner guests.
    And, the same, but even more so, for someone with pedophilia. They just can’t be unsupervised where there are too many accessible targets around.

    I used to have a family member with this issue. I accidentally found him researching the family on the internet when it was new and shiny (we have an unusual family name). He showed up on the state sex offender’s list, and he was in his 80s! He had been released from state prison for something that happened when he was in his 70s, sent to a half-way house, and somehow connected with a neighborhood kid to run errands for him, and re-offended. The last I heard, he had died, I believe in prison. With all the interventions (and this was why I never met him-my parents stayed far away), he could never be “cured.”

  10. My therapist says many RSO’s are narcissists. they are incapable of feeling any remorse or regret because they are ‘special’and above the rules of ordinary mortals.. There are many lists of NPD characteristics but I think the keys are: extremely manipulative, exploitative of others and lack of empathy

  11. nmgirl: many RSO’s are narcissists … incapable of feeling any remorse or regret … above the rules of ordinary mortals … extremely manipulative, exploitative of others and lack of empathy

    Sooo … why turn them loose on uninformed church members?! Pastors who are sympathetic to a child abuser desiring to walk the straight and narrow should personally monitor every step of their path through church.

  12. Linn: I used to have a family member with this issue … he could never be “cured.”

    This is a fairly common story. I used to think that RSOs could never be cured … then I started to think they could be cured when exposed to church life … I’m now back to thinking they can never be cured. There’s a great difference in healing and deliverance which come from an encounter with God vs. an encounter with the “church.” We can’t afford to be naive with the safety of children under the watch of the church in the current undiscerning condition of most.

  13. Max,

    I offered to help protect the church body and do this monitoring of an individual quietly at First Evangelical Church in Memphis when I found that they would have a sex offender attending service one morning. Pastor told me their lawyer told him to deny that I had notified them of this. (I had notified the pastors in writing). smh
    Our pastorates are full of the original PPP (Pervert Protection Progam), and for them, it is also the Paycheck Protection Program, as well.

  14. Max: Sooo … why turn them loose on uninformed church members?! Pastors who are sympathetic to a child abuser desiring to walk the straight and narrow should personally monitor every step of their path through church.

    Because the church hasn’t really gotten the idea that there are individuals who are not interested in true change. Years ago, I started researching the cluster B personality disorders, and the differences between them, as well as how treatable they are (varies by type). The church takes an approach that they can fix anyone. Psychiatry has a different perspective on that. If you go read the verses in the Bible that talk about church discipline, and compare those lists with the characteristics found within the varied Cluster B disorders, what you find is that the church should be WAY better prepared for this than they are. You also find that modern Psychiatry is actually pretty aligned with the Bible in this regard.

    That was really eye opening for me. I realized that I have not personally witnessed a single instance of church discipline that actually was appropriate (ehhh, maybe one, that guy that left his wife after years of emotional abuse did actually need to be excommunicated… but maybe he should have been years earlier before he ever got the Big D). Meanwhile, I have known of several cases where church discipline was used very inappropriately sometimes even to aid and abet abuse.

  15. It is just so strange to me that some churches go overboard in their compassion for people who have sexually abused children. Where is the compassion for everybody else who struggles, whether with sin, crime, or just plain circumstances (poverty, addiction, mental or physical illness, ethnicity, disability……..)?

  16. ES: the church should be WAY better prepared for this than they are

    In their current condition, the average American church member (in both pulpit and pew) does not scare the devil much when they get up in the morning. A perfect set-up to aid and abet abusers in their midst.

  17. AbuseCrusher: Pastor told me their lawyer told him to deny that I had notified them of this. (I had notified the pastors in writing).

    Then he’s not a “pastor” in the truest meaning of that word; lead, feed, and protect the flock is his responsibility … tossing away counsel from a church member in favor of outside counsel was not wise in this case.

  18. Max,

    Having run the gambit of very conservative churches to a very liberal one now… it is actually very hard for me to figure out what you mean by “average.” While the dynamics of these churches has been remarkably similar in terms of personality types and clashes, the over-all focus of the churches has been night and day different. The liberal one understands the concept of abuse better than the conservative ones… though their focus is more on systemic abuse rather than relational abuse… and there is still an obvious sense of “other” does this, not me.

    What gets me about the conservative churches that put a huge emphasis on the Bible is their inability to actually recognize sin in action when it is so clearly spelled out in the Bible that they spend so much time parsing. It feels like they miss the forest and the trees for the saplings.

  19. ES: What gets me about the conservative churches that put a huge emphasis on the Bible is their inability to actually recognize sin in action when it is so clearly spelled out in the Bible that they spend so much time parsing. It feels like they miss the forest and the trees for the saplings.

    Exactly! I come from a “conservative” church background where Scripture was treated as the Truth, whole Truth and nothing but the Truth … but mostly on Sunday only. When the rubber hit the road during the week, there was very little application of their faith. They not only missed the sins of others, but their own … most remained saplings.

  20. ES: Commas are always helpful… I should probably remember to use them in the future

    Indeed! Commas can actually save lives! For example:

    Let’s eat Grandma!
    Let’s eat, Grandma!

    🙂

  21. ES: Having run the gambit of very conservative churches to a very liberal one now… the over-all focus of the churches has been night and day different.

    Goodness, i have also found this to be true!

    The kindness and helping neighbors without judgement is what i see the most clear difference. The politics bleed in, but in a radically different way. It’s actually fascinating.

  22. Max: When the rubber hit the road during the week, there was very little application of their faith.

    Whereas, what I saw in a similar environment was a very high level of knit-picking and but a very low level of large pattern of sin recognition. So hypothetically, if a couple comes in for therapy, we are going to focus on that time that the husband yelled because the wife was late – and those two things are going to be given equal billing. We are going to completely ignore that the husband thinks his role in the family is to tell everyone what to do, but not actually have any part in the doing. Or if an 19 year-old college student gets caught “sneaking out” we are going to focus on the “sneaking out” part and not the fact that the parents are expecting a 19 year old, living at home, who owns their own car and is paying for their own tuition, to ask for, and receive permission any time they leave the house, other than for work or school. In this referenced case, the 19yo was expected to call and ask permission to stop and pick up an ice-cream on the way home from school or if they deviated in any way from the pre-determined route or errands (true story). The 19yo ended up barred from communion for a period of time.

    Or… we are going to teach extensively on the errors of pre-marital sex and homosexuality – and if a member of the congregation gets caught engaging in those they will be publicly denounced, and/or pastors will refuse to marry a young couple until they have had a set period of abstinence (isn’t this the opposite of the “get married already if you burn” passage?). But sex crimes against children (or anybody else for that matter) will be treated as “private sins” and actively hidden from the congregation because the perp is embarrassed and we wouldn’t want our sins up for public review!

  23. AbuseCrusher: PPP (Pervert Protection Progam), and for them, it is also the Paycheck Protection Program,

    These two PPP’s are completely aligned, as “documented” in the novel, “Legal Grounds”, where it is mapped out in “real life”.

    So thankful that these commenters are here. Thank God for each one of you and your chiming in about the realities of church, which can sometimes be a minefield to walk through, carefully & safely. Most thankful to Dee for this forum. God is at work here. Ever grateful.

  24. ES: Years ago, I started researching the cluster B personality disorders, and the differences between them, as well as how treatable they are (varies by type). The church takes an approach that they can fix anyone. Psychiatry has a different perspective on that.

    Do tell. Us more.

  25. Lea: The politics bleed in, but in a radically different way. It’s actually fascinating.

    Have you noticed that a relatively large subset of the more liberal congregation is completely oblivious to view points of the conservatives… but the conservatives are all too aware of the liberal “church”?

    Weeks ago in a Zoom Bible study, one of the ladies specifically said something about getting rid of the separation of church and state… completely oblivious to the fact that not all churches (by a long shot) share her progressive views. The leader neatly handled that question by pointing out that the church didn’t have nearly as good a record as it should, on actually confronting injustice, and was better off being humble about it.

  26. Max: where RSOs came from and whether they still live there in their minds:

    “still live there in their minds”

    Wisdom.

    Moreover, behavioral experts, like the FBI’s Roy Hazelwood – Christian, now passed, may he RIP – document the mind fixations of these criminals: “The Evil That Men Do” and “Dark Dreams”. It all starts and is perpetuated by a fantasy. Mental fixation. They really do live there in their minds, no matter how “normal” or “Christian” these criminals appear in their veneer of outward behavior performance. I would add, this is not just true of some men. Some women are predators and “live there”, too.

  27. Ava Aaronson: Psychiatry has a different perspective on that.

    Do tell. Us more.

    That is a really long conversation…

    I am NOT a psychiatrist, so this is all my layman’s understanding and interpretation. There are 4 cluster B Personality Disorders (abbreviated PD from here on out) currently recognized in the DSM-5. These 4 have many overlapping traits, and frankly, it isn’t helpful to try to do a layman diagnosis on others. What is helpful is to recognize how much the dysfunctional traits overlap with the descriptions in the Bible of who to avoid/confront found in Proverbs and later in the NT discussions on church discipline. It will take me a little bit of time to get the Biblical overlap covered – partially because the descriptions of the actual disorders are very technical. The most interesting thing to me is that Therapists widely recognize that someone who is forced into treatment is unlikely to benefit much if any. Treatment only works when the person wants to change.

    In order of treat-ability according to traditional psychiatry:

    1. Borderline PD: Considered the most treatable because these people are usually very unhappy, recognize there is something wrong, and often seek out treatment. Not to be confused with Bi-Polar which is a Mood Disorder (chemical), not a Personality Disorder (character). They already have very low self-esteem, and do not respond well to the sin-picking of nouthetic counseling because they are already convinced that they are un-lovable. But there are known treatments that have very high rates of success… and I cannot remember the names…

    2. Histronic PD: I have heard rumors that this may be removed in the next DSM edition. Don’t really know why. I am not as familiar with this type. My understanding is that this is the type of person who will turn their hamburger order into a Greek tragedy. They will also demand that all attention be on them at all times. But this particular trait overlaps with #3.

    3. Narcissistic PD (NPD): Considered to be VERY resistant to treatment. Narcissists will rarely seek out treatment and usually are being forced into it by outside sources, because they do not believe the problem is them. Therapists say that they don’t get to treat much Narcissism, but they do get to treat lots of narcissistic abuse victims. Marked by extreme self-centeredness and very low levels of empathy. Drawn to positions of power and/or savior positions. Not to be confused with Narcissism. There is a spectrum that runs from “Neurotic” (other centric) to “Narcissistic” (self-centric) that all human behavior falls on. Healthy individuals fall somewhere in the middle of the spectrum. It is possible to be very Narcissistic and not have NPD. High levels of Narcissism show up in both #3 & #4.

    4. Anti-Social PD: Named to describe someone who is incapable of behaving lawfully within society – this is NOT someone who is shy, introverted, or socially anxious. This is marked by a complete lack of conscience. Depending on who you read, there may be two types. The first one REALLY struggles to understand social norms and usually develops a criminal record. The second one does understand social norms and exploits them to their benefit – They are likely to evade any sort of consequences for any criminal activity they might engage in. And they are drawn to positions of power. I have heard these two groups called Psychopaths and Sociopaths respectively – those names are not defined in the DSM-5, and as such I have found that the definitions seem to vary wildly. Modern Psychology considers both groups to be HIGHLY resistant to treatment. If they are forced into treatment, the second group is very adept at tricking counselors, and weaponizing anything they learn in treatment. There is a reason that Criminal Psychology is its own branch.

  28. ES: one of the ladies specifically said something about getting rid of the separation of church and state… completely oblivious to the fact that not all churches (by a long shot) share her progressive views.

    I’m kind of afraid to ask, but how is the notion of abolishing the separation of church and state an idea put forth by progressives? Was there an example?

  29. Friend,

    She was referring to the protests and the conservative political response, which from her perspective is anti-christian. Honestly, it struck me as naivety on her part as to the state of the church or its history of maintaining the status quo. I live in a very progressive area and have often found that individuals are surprisingly insulated from politically or religiously conservative viewpoints – the result of which is that they tend to think of “them” as a far off almost mythical “other.” That is a misconception. I could easily make Mahaney’s and Harris’s old church my home church.

    If I were to mention Patterson, Mahany, Piper, Driscoll, J. Harris, etc. my fellow church members wouldn’t have a clue who I was talking about. When I have described the doctrines I grew up on, I have been met with disbelief. They think that those are fringe beliefs that are not effecting Christianity today. It is a really weird place to be… especially because I know how politically motivated the uber conservative Christians are, from personal experience.

    Don’t get me wrong, people are extremely kind. They have no idea what to make of me.

  30. Ava Aaronson: They really do live there in their minds, no matter how “normal” or “Christian” these criminals appear in their veneer of outward behavior performance.

    And to make matters worse, RSOs freely roam through the church undetected because there is a thin veneer of Christianity in America which has no discernment and power to deal with the darkness in their midst.

  31. ES: they tend to think of “them” as a far off almost mythical “other” … If I were to mention Patterson, Mahaney, Piper, Driscoll, J. Harris, etc. my fellow church members wouldn’t have a clue who I was talking about.

    That’s why the American church has been such an easy target for the New Calvinist movement. Church folks are uninformed, misinformed or willingly ignorant about the aberrant faith sweeping through their churches. The SBC was certainly caught unawares and surrendered without a shot to the new reformation which now controls its seminaries, mission agencies, publishing house, and a growing number of churches … while millions of non-Calvinist members sat idly by.

  32. ES: Don’t get me wrong, people are extremely kind. They have no idea what to make of me.

    ^^^ I think this could be the motto of the TWW regulars.

    You are giving your new pals an education. They’ll get over their surprise, but meanwhile it sounds like they are listening.

  33. Max: And to make matters worse, RSOs freely roam through the church undetected because there is a thin veneer of Christianity in America which has no discernment and power to deal with the darkness in their midst.

    Max, “discernment” has been redefined to mean Seeing DEMONS in every closet and under every bed.

  34. Friend,

    “It is just so strange to me that some churches go overboard in their compassion for people who have sexually abused children. Where is the compassion for everybody else ”
    +++++++++++++++

    spiritual heroics.

    it’s for the glamour.

  35. I think many churches (like many people) either don’t know, or don’t want to know, the reality of paedophiles & their actions, with the added temptation for churches to downplay this in case they look like they’re downplaying the power of God to change people. It certainly looks like a huge feather in your cap if you somehow have a child molester who has ‘repented’ crowing about it publicly.

    I’ve never yet heard any credible evidence for adult paedophiles substantially changing – from churches or anywhere else, does anyone know of any? It puzzles & troubles me that we don’t have this, although I suspect it may be more to do with the condition containing within itself an unwillingness to change, hence WON’T be forgiven & changed rather than CAN’T be. The levels of deception used in order to offend certainly shows a massive ability & desire to deceive.

  36. Cedarville University has adopted the “caring well” sloganing for its COVID-19 plan for the fall, going a step further by using Phil. 2:4 to goad Christians (but not the university??) into looking to the interests of others.

    Perhaps it should add an icon for social distancing and other safe practices to stay away from administrators, faculty and staff who hired, hid and protected a confessed sex predator?

    https://www.cedarville.edu/caring-well-staying-well.aspx

  37. Max: That’s why the American church has been such an easy target for the New Calvinist movement. Church folks are uninformed, misinformed or willingly ignorant about the aberrant faith sweeping through their churches.

    We’ve been on this ground before and even concurred:
    So long as the potlucks and other social events continue, they don’t really care about what’s aberrant faith and what isn’t.

  38. Muff Potter: So long as the potlucks and other social events continue, they don’t really care about what’s aberrant faith and what isn’t.

    Doing church without God … they never miss His presence.

  39. Max: That’s why the American church has been such an easy target for the New Calvinist movement. Church folks are uninformed, misinformed or willingly ignorant about the aberrant faith sweeping through their churches. The SBC was certainly caught unawares and surrendered without a shot to the new reformation which now controls its seminaries, mission agencies, publishing house, and a growing number of churches … while millions of non-Calvinist members sat idly by.

    I think there’s a lot to unpack here.

    The American Church is not a monolithic entity. We need to realize that there is no Christianity as such but a lot of “Chrisitianities”, most of whom consider the other ones misguided at best and heretic at worse.

    The authoritarian strains that are mostly discussed here would likely not consider us (the big us – I no longer adhere to the faith) as co-religionists in any way, shape or form.

    In my experience as a Christian, I noticed that most individual adherents to a given strain are quite tolerant (for the most part), they are loathe to criticize the “mother church” as it were.

    In the case of the more authoritarian versions of the faith, it may be that the silent majority are caught up in the culture of compliance. I also think that they may actually agree with the fundamental hard line – they may like that all the answers are there with no blurred lines.

    In my opinion, the faith in general is at a crossroads. For those in North America, unprecedented freedom of expression, and also unprecedented challenge to be heard.

    The table is much more diverse than it has ever been and Christianity is much more fractured and no longer controls the conversation the way it did before.

    Some people would see this as opportunity but others take a bunker mentality.

    Some streams of Christianity may not be salvageable.

  40. Jack: the silent majority are caught up in the culture of compliance

    Yes, that describes the SBC dilemma well.

    Jack: The table is much more diverse than it has ever been and Christianity is much more fractured and no longer controls the conversation the way it did before.

    Great perspective!

  41. Jack: I also think that they may actually agree with the fundamental hard line – they may like that all the answers are there with no blurred lines.

    If they want all the answers word-for-word from a holy book, why don’t they just say the Shahada and move to Saudi? Islam has the reputation for Micromanagement by Scripture, at least the X-treme forms that get in the news these days.

  42. Jack: The American Church is not a monolithic entity. We need to realize that there is no Christianity as such but a lot of “Chrisitianities”, most of whom consider the other ones misguided at best and heretic at worse.

    The theoretical End Stage of Protestantism:
    Millions of One True Churches, each with only ONE member, each denouncing all the others as Heretics and Apostates.

  43. Max: Doing church without God … they never miss His presence.

    “Just like those ‘atheist churches’ that were in the news a couple years ago, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”

  44. Jack,

    “The table is much more diverse than it has ever been and Christianity is much more fractured and no longer controls the conversation the way it did before.”
    ++++++++++++++++++

    interesting….

    it strikes me that ‘the majority’ (in any category) seems ‘surprised’ at all this diversity. like it’s some new thing. even a sign of how the evil worldly world is spinning out of control.

    seems fairly obvious to me that ‘this diversity’ has been here all along.

    they just are having the audacity to pull a chair up to the table, sit down, and look at the wide-eyed-everyone at the table as a first step to joining the conversation to be heard.

    and then they start speaking. and some of the wide-eyed-everyone at the table seem…. surprised. taken aback.

    and i really want to say “tough beans”. Get over it.

  45. Jack,

    ….”In my experience as a Christian, I noticed that most individual adherents to a given strain are quite tolerant..”..

    Im curious about your usage of the word “strain”. What does that mean to you. In the non-church world it has a specific meaning.

    You also used the word “streams”. Water is a very common religious reference, but seldom if ever explained. What does the image mean to you?

  46. elastigirl: Ava Aaronson,

    …could you rephrase? (for my own comprehension shortfall) [like, are you speaking to me]

    Sure.

    elastigirl: and i really want to say “tough beans”. Get over it.

    Ava Aaronson: elastigirl: Get over it.

    Get with it.

    So, I’d add to what you noted, that those surprised by the reality of diversity who need to “get over it”, may also need to “get with it”.

  47. Nathan Priddis: Im curious about your usage of the word “strain”. What does that mean to you. In the non-church world it has a specific meaning.

    You also used the word “streams”. Water is a very common religious reference, but seldom if ever explained. What does the image mean to you?

    In the context of the comment strain meant the different versions christianity. Like this definition from the Cambridge Dictionary:

    a particular type or quality:
    A strain of puritanism runs through all her work.

    I suppose you could also say (keeping in mind people are a type of animal):

    an animal or plant from a particular group whose characteristics are different in some way from others of the same group:
    Scientists have discovered a new strain of the virus which is much more dangerous.

    Joke’s on Cambridge though since viruses aren’t really alive.

    But a strain could also pertain to physical pressure, psychological stress, a musical note.

    I believe these definitions apply to both the church and non-church world so strain can have many meanings, not just one specific one.

    Unless the other non-church folks are hiding the secret meaning on me, wouldn’t be the first time…those cads!

    As for water, it is both life giving and life destroying (the bible has alluded to both). In the ancient world, particularly the drier parts of the middle east where the biblical traditions originated, water was integral to crops, and a bad harvest (or several) could be the end of you. Death was much closer to many folks in the past.

    Interesting to note that apparently archaeology tells us the city of Ur was destroyed by floods from which that city never fully recovered in the deep past. There’s some speculation that’s why the flood story is so prominent in Levantine mythology, and may be what set Abraham (or his analogy) on his wanderings.

  48. Nathan Priddis: You also used the word “streams”. Water is a very common religious reference, but seldom if ever explained. What does the image mean to you

    But to answer your question, streams in this context simply meant the the different branches off the river of Christianity.

  49. Headless Unicorn Guy: If they want all the answers word-for-word from a holy book, why don’t they just say the Shahada and move to Saudi? Islam has the reputation for Micromanagement by Scripture, at least the X-treme forms that get in the news these days

    I think this is the dichotomy that weighs heavily on a lot of North American Christians. The bible doesn’t describe “God’s Liberal Democracy” or “God’s Electoral College”. Nobody voted on who was priest or king. People were chosen (ostensibly by God in some cases) to rule.
    So on the one hand in some churches, the pastor tells you it’s a completely top down monarchy while living in a society where monarchy is anathema (unless you’re in Canada but we just shudder to think Trudeau could be a “President” – hence ol’ Liz gets to keep her representative, who we pretty much ignore)

    Most Christians want to do the “right thing” but that can get co-opted horribly in the authoritarian churches and institutions that we discuss here.

  50. elastigirl,

    I believe this is a time of great opportunity. Christians can bring a lot to the table. It’s been done before with much fewer resources and in much less tolerant society – Looking at you, Paul.

  51. Jack: Death was much closer to many folks in the past.

    So very true.
    Life has gone from nasty, short and brutish (Hobbes), to long and meaningless in our present day gated Elysium of material abundance.

  52. Jack,

    “I believe this is a time of great opportunity. Christians can bring a lot to the table.”
    ++++++++++++++++++

    what can they bring to the table?

    (not challenging you, here. i’m not even sure of the answer myself, anymore.)

  53. If the predator themselves doesn’t openly acknowledge their addiction, regardless which one it happens to be, they are not in recovery. They aren’t even trying.

  54. elastigirl: what can they bring to the table?

    (not challenging you, here. i’m not even sure of the answer myself, anymore.)

    In Chris Hedges book “American Fascists” he makes the case that the word “Christian” has been co-opted by groups that have defined Christianity in their own very narrow terms.

    Hedges identifies himself as a Lutheran and he makes the case that what he described as “moderate” Christians need to reclaim the name.

    This book was one of the eye openers that made me realize that many evangelical strains do not and would never consider me a coreligionist and it was time to stop thinking of them as such. I have since developed a more universal spirituality and no long subscribe to Christian beliefs as events that literally occurred. To quote Hollywood, the bible for me is more “inspired by actual events” – meaning there may be kernels within it that happened but other events like talking animals, forbidden fruits and flying people were highly unlikely.

    So the Christians I think can bring the most to the table are those who subscribe to the “love thy neighbour” and “judge not..” groups rather than the ones who focus on “shall be put to death” missives.

    But hey, even they can have an opinion, and I can disagree with it.

  55. Jack,

    we’re on the same page.

    although let’s not throw out “judge not” — outside of a neurotic religious context, it’s what enables us to have a sense of justice, and to have high standards for integrity and character. it enables us to call out things that are morally wrong.

    things which an evangelical with fascist tendencies is too busy fretting over dotting the i’s and crossing the t’s to understand, it seems.

  56. d4v1d: If the predator themselves doesn’t openly acknowledge their addiction, regardless which one it happens to be, they are not in recovery.

    If predators do not fully compen$ate every victim, as Zacchaeus did and as John the Baptist called for – the fruits of repentance -, they are still predators.

    Only believe it when appropriate actions are generously voluntarily taken, as designated by the Bible.

    Who does this? Who takes these actions? No one? Well then, as FBI profiler Roy Hazelwood documented, pedophile predators do not change.

    See it, then believe it. Very straightforward. No Lala Land of Cheap Fake Grace.

    The youth pastors that preyed on youth group girls & boys? Did they compen$ate their victim/witnesses?

    The clergy that preyed on counselees? Did they compen$ate their victim/witnesses? Paid for REAL counseling after they had been violated by their clergy?

    The high ed professors that preyed on their students, grad assistants? Did they compen$ate their victim/witnesses?

  57. BruceS,

    Thanks for this, I know of this model. I hope that lower levels of re-offending are due to a change of heart, as well as better perp supervision in society.

  58. It is hard for Christians to acknowledge that some people can’t be changed. After all we believe that all can be forgiven and that Christ offers new life. I can accept this somewhat as my older brother is a christian but still is a paranoid schizophrenic (still Crazy). I think there are some conditions, (like sex predators, mental illness, autism etc) where there is no healing until the resurrection. I know this is hard to accept but it is true to reality.

  59. elastigirl: although let’s not throw out “judge not” — outside of a neurotic religious context, it’s what enables us to have a sense of justice, and to have high standards for integrity and character. it enables us to call out things that are morally wron

    But it also is a call for tolerance of others, be that other strains of Christianity, other faiths, other cultures. Context is everything and in the gospels “judge not” is a call to introspection. It is another aspect of Christianity that has been co-opted into a negative connotation.
    It’s not for me to tell someone they are darned. If there is a God then that’s their business not mine, but I can ensure that victims are heard and perpetrators see justice.
    The idea of sin levelling is absurd – sorry but abusing others is not on par with taking 11 items into the 10 item or less lane (if that’s the case then I am going to heck)