Recovery of the Test Orion Capsule in the Pacific Ocean
“To be trusted is a greater compliment than to be loved.” –-George MacDonald
I always enjoy reading posts by Joe Carter when it comes to these subjects. Who can forget his dogged support of CJ Mahaney and his disdain for me in the following conversation written up by the Christian Post. The Gospel Coalition, Christian Bloggers Spar Over Sovereign Grace Ministry, C.J. Mahaney on Twitter? Well, at least I haven’t forgotten the discussion and I bet Carter hasn’t as well.
So when I saw he wrote a post on NDAs (non-disclosure agreements), I was intrigued. Should Christians Sign Non-Disclosure Agreements?
I can agree with him on the following point:
A certain level of discretion is necessary for a local church or Christian non-profit to function biblically and effectively, so it’s not unreasonable for ministries to agree to keep such information private.
He quoted from a website called Free Church Forms-NDA.
[Church Name] Officers are responsible for the security of any confidential information to which they have access. They have an obligation to maintain the confidentiality of proprietary, confidential and sensitive information, documents and data concerning [Church Name], its staff, members, organizations and Pastor. Church Officers will not discuss or divulge internal church business concerning any of the above entities except to (1) the extent necessary for the normal conduct of business and (2) those that are specifically authorized to receive such information.
I can agree with him on the fact that NDAs are often used to cover up things that should be brought to the light.
NDAs are sometimes used in ways that allow the cover-up of abuse, sexual harassment, racial discrimination, or other immoral actions
Here is where his suggestion sounds good but could get really sticky.
if you are asked to sign an NDA, you can request to modify the document by adding a requirement that enforcement of the confidentiality clause would be subject to a Christian conciliation process and mediated by an agreed upon volunteer or professional mediator, an outside local church or group of elders, or a formally established conciliation ministry.
For example, it appears to me that some Christian peacemaker type groups appear to side with the leaders of the church as opposed to the lowly pew sitter. Think about who pays the peacemaking group to peace make… Here is a post that I wrote 5 years ago. Beware of Christian™ Arbitration: It’s a Con Game Developed to Protect Christian™ Leaders
In this post you can read about the horrific trial endured by Pamela Prescott and Northlake School. It was my conclusion that one should never sign a contract that requires so-called *Christian arbitration.*
1. Do not sign the contract.
However, some churches will not allow you to participate in various activities if you don’t join. I have personally discovered that it is quite easy to circumvent the system by attending the church, starting your own Bible study, and serving within parachurch groups.
2. You sign the contract in order to get a much needed job.
You have three methods of action if things don’t work out. By the way, think about your options if it doesn’t work out prior to signing on.
1. Quit before you are fired.
2. Be fired, don’t fight back and chalk it up to experience.
3. Fight back and hope you have the money and stamina to see it through.
In the article I wrote about a case documented by the New York Times. In Religious Arbitration, Scripture Is the Rule of Law
Yet some lawyers and plaintiffs said that for some groups, religious arbitration may have less to do with honoring a set of beliefs than with controlling legal outcomes. Some religious organizations stand by the process until they lose, at which point they turn to the secular courts to overturn faith-based judgments, according to interviews and court records.
“Religious arbitration, at its best, ensures that people can resolve their disputes in accordance with deeply held religious beliefs,” said Michael A. Helfand, an associate professor at Pepperdine University School of Law and an arbitrator in a rabbinical court in New York. “But both religious communities and courts need to make sure that the protections the law has put in place to make it a fair and unbiased process are actually implemented.”
Few courts have intervened, saying the terms of arbitration are detailed in binding contracts signed by both parties. Some judges are also reluctant to risk infringing the First Amendment rights of religious groups, according to a review of court decisions and interviews with lawyers.
So, make sure that you are able to get an outside, independent professional mediation group that does not have ties to the Christian community. (I can’t wait to hear the critics on this one but I shall stand my ground!)
Warning/Red Flag: The church leaders *out* for strict confidentiality centers around church discipline and this is where you have to read the fine point.
Read what Carter has to say here. Remember, he is now a pastor at McLean Bible Church and his bias will be toward the pastor side of the equation. Non-disclosure agreements center around what should be, and what should not be, kept confidential.
Confidentiality is often an important element in living at peace with everyone (Rom. 12:18). But we are also called to confront sin and even, if necessary, bring it before the church (Matt. 18:15-17). This requires we possess the legal freedom to call out wrongdoing when we see it, which puts a limit on the privacy afforded to a ministry. Just as strict confidentiality is not the biblical standard for pastoral counseling, it should not be used as the standard for inter-organizational management. We can glorify God by providing legally bound discretion only so long as it does not require that we cover up sinful behavior.
Did you see where the link takes you? Yep Biblical Counseling Coalition. You can be sure that this group is pastor-centric. Here is what they have to say.
Strict confidentiality is not possible for Christians who practice counseling in the context of a local church. If a person is not willing to repentant of his sin, the counselor must eventually expose this sinner to the church. If we are going to follow the ethics of the Bible, it is not an option for us to conceal an unrepentant sinners’ sin. Granted, many of us (as counselors) will persevere for a long-time—exhorting, persuading, pleading with the sinner to turn. But if he or she does not, we’re left with one two options—bring a second witness (v. 16); and then bring it to the church (v. 17).
As you can see, there are limits to our confidentiality in a church setting. Pastoral counseling requires us to always fit the sinner within the context of a local church. We’re not lone-rangers in private practice; but shepherds watching over a flock of God’s sheep (1 Peter 5:1-13).
Here is the problem. What do they define as sin that is worthy of church discipline?
I have documented many, many instances of abuse in Church Discipline and Abuse. Joe Carter hangs with some of the ministry leaders of 9 Marks, Acts 29, etc. He is a member of The Gospel Coalition whose entire website is centered around Reformed pastors/church leaders.
The Real Problem: What should be disciplined is not defined a priori.
We are all sinners and all of us are dealing, day to day, with our walk with God. What sins should be disciplined?
There is no question that some sins are severe. 1 Corinthians 5 deals with a case of incest in the church. I doubt there are many who would disagree that such a sin should be disciplined. Other such sins might include cases of adultery in which a man leaves his wife and children, someone who embezzles money from the church, etc.
The bad news is this. Many churches decide, on the fly, to discipline just about anything. This might include pride, divisiveness, arrogance, sinfully craving answers to questions (we kid you not), resigning from church, asking questions about budgets, disagreeing with a pastor, etc.
Why won’t they define which sins they punish up front?
Unfortunately, church leaders are sinners just like the rest of us. They can use these poorly defined rules to stifle disagreement, to play “I’m the authority around here” card, to get rid of opposition so the pastor can do things his way, or just because they are in a bad mood. One man got disciplined for not smiling at his pastor in the supermarket!
Would you move to a country that had no defined laws and a police force that could arrest you for anything? Why should you be member of a church that practices church discipline and refuses to tell you what they will discipline?
So, I would say RUN from any of these groups and NEVER, EVER get legally entangled with them unless you have an out. I can get you out of church covenants (contracts) but not so much out of NDAs. If you must sign one in a Christian church or para-church group, be sure to there is a way that you can appeal to an independent mediator that has few ties to the church, church leaders or para-church relationships.
In the meantime, do you think that Joe Carter will ever admit that I was right in that argument that was documented by the Christian Post?
JUAN
“NDAs. If you must sign one in a Christian church or para-church group”
Why?
The question is Why? enter into the BIG RED FLAG ZONE of a church, in the first place.
Don’t. Just say, “No”.
Ok, so on the one hand we have the deafening silence of certain church leaders when it comes to any of their own being involved in abuse or covering up abuse, and on the other hand those same leaders typically consider that anything shared by an individual pew-sitter in a ‘Biblical’ counselling session can be disclosed to a whole church if they (the church leaders) deem it necessary for ‘discipline‘ purposes?!
drstevej,
For the sake of others, please consider not doing this. It could legitimately be considered offensive. Thank you.
And the member usually does not have the same clause in their NDA. There’s usually a huge power imbalance written into the contract that forces the silence of the member, but the church is free to say whatever they want.
I’m with Ava. Don’t sign the NDA. Leave that church and go elsewhere.
I don’t understand why some Christians are so casual about signing a covenant or an NDA, when they wouldn’t be signing a contract for anything else.
ishy,
I agree that no one should sign a Church covenant or NDA. The trouble is that when a person trustingly seeks help through counselling, you can bet that the ‘tell it to the church’ clause is not heavily flagged and in many cases not even mentioned. That the openness and vulnerability of counsellees can be abused by church leaders in this way is despicable.
I read church covenants for fun (yes, I’m weird), and it’s often clearer than you might think.
I have various friends that refused to believe church covenants would really be enforced, and others who naively believe the church would never hurt them. Until they did. Until they saw the whole rest of the staff thrown out and yes men put in because the covenant they signed allowed it without member input. Until they saw horrible abuses covered up. Until they were threatened with being sued for speaking about those abuses.
People believe churches wouldn’t do these things and they do. As we know, they do these things all the time.
ishy,
I will add that there are covenants that are super vague, but Acts 29 and TGC have been telling churches to move away from that and dictate everything. Covenants used to put in “respect your elders” and that was supposed to mean that elders could decide everything. Acts 29 has put out a lot to move churches toward very specific contracts.
People need to shop around churches and not go to ones that are openly cultic in operation. Cults are defined by the way they want to control the lives of their members, and Acts 29 churches definitely want to do that.
ishy,
I heard a commentator say recently that what church leaders are struggling with most during C-19 lockdown is the sense of lack of control over their church and congregants! Long may that lack of control continue.
It would be great if this period of absence from church gatherings wakes people up to the fact that they do not need to be at the beck and call of institutional churches and their leaders. The church is made up of individual believers worldwide, our only essential leader is Jesus Christ and we live in the power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus builds his church with ‘living stones’, not with institutions or self proclaimed church leaders.
When Jesus looks at his church now he does not see it any differently due to the absence of church gatherings in any specific location. He knows his people and they know him, worth or without the intermediary of the institutional church. The Christian community is far broader than any local institutional church or denomination and that is a wonderful thing. This blog is an example of that.
Sjon,
*with or without
No doubt. I’ve heard similar from frantic pastors who are frustrated that their grooming processes have been halted by the quarantine. I hope that it gave members a huge wake-up call that they don’t need these kinds of churches in their lives. I’ve seen first-hand how these churches drag people down more than making their lives better. Even heard churches that claim if your church isn’t demanding everything from you without giving much back, then they are not “true” churches. It’s a big lie that’s more about pastors who want power than following God.
ishy,
John 13:35 (NIV) ‘By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.’
John 13:35 (Acts 29 & 9 Marks version) ‘By this church leaders will know who are their disciples, if they minutely define church and exercise control over the members.’
Are NDA’s and confidentiality agreements ‘really’ enforceable? Aren’t these instruments intended to intimidate folks to keep their mouths shut “just in case”, but carry no weight in a legal challenge?
The only covenant that a believer needs to enter into is the one written in red by Jesus. No other contract required to be a member of the Body of Christ.
Agreed. I have never signed any church membership document. Plenty of churches don’t have them.
Our current church does the more normal thing of maintaining a membership roll. That gives the church about the same authority over me as a gym membership. They know how to reach me, and they can count me for statistical and reporting purposes.
Ava Aaronson,
You and I are in the same page along with lots of folks who’ve been burned.
Sjon,
It’s pretty incredible that people trust they will be treated fairly. My 11 years of writing say otherwise. The things people got abused for:
Asking the church not to sell CJ Mahaney books and then leaving-retroactive discipline
Not sharing the ill defined *vision.*
Asking question about the budget
Ad my favorite on allegedly made up by CJ Mahaney “sinfully craving answers.”
The ones that do appear to be outliers (at least in my area). Most, if not all, of the SBC YRR church plants here do have some form of membership agreement; traditional churches do not. The young reformers use them to control the flock, IMO, through manipulation and intimidation. It’s just part of their whole rotten scheme to dominate the American church with the one true gospel (not!).
Yet people continue to trust they will be treated and heard in a fair manner. However, the Bible warns us that there will be problematic people in the church and even leading that church. I watched it happen and that is how this blog got started..
If you visit a prospective church where the preacher is called “lead pastor” who carries an ESV Bible and sticks a membership covenant in your face, ask where the back door is and run like hell.
You sound like me. I also read them for people who call me and ask my opinion. Whenever a church goes full out on the covenant, you can be sure that discipline is coming.
I field calls from people who want to get out of their church. Did you know that most covenants say one has to get permission to move on?
These church leaders have been given erroneous information that leads them to think they can control people and not get sued. It is a bit of a shock when they find that they can get into all sorts of legal trouble if they pursue anyone who leaves the church.
I would love to read or hear that comment. That’s a post waiting to be written.
Sjon,
Recently I was told by a friend that so and so “love” you. I said that they don’t. They have not answered a letter I wrote months ago and haven’t spoken to me in next to forever. I guess they meant the have warm, fuzzy feelings when they hear my name.
Max,
I have written extensively on the topic that these are not some cute little covenant but are actual legal contracts.While you are a member of that church, the courts will not hear your case unless the law has been broken. Churches have. the right to function in they way they see best even if it is weird or bad.
This contract may be broken at anytime by the members but they must do so in writing and then be prepared to go after them if they continue believing that said member is still a member. They actually believe they can enforce the covenant/contract even if you leave. They have been told this by some lawyer that I’ve written about. They cannot no matter what they’ve been told.
Here is how to leave a church even if you are under church discipline. Yep-you heard that right. They cannot make you stay to be disciplined.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/permpage-how-to-resign-from-a-church-whether-or-not-you-are-under-church-discipline/
The key being one has to officially leave a church. One best send a certified, return receipt letter declaring said church no longer has authority in my life!
You mean Gag Orders?
La Omerta enforced with Lawyers instead of Lupari?
“Why not become a lawyer? One man with a briefcase can steal more than a hundred men with guns.”
— Mario Puzo, The Godfather
A lawyer taking their money and telling them what they want to hear?
Again, “One man with a briefcase can steal more than a hundred men with guns.”
— Mario Puzo, The Godfather
Ditto if “lead pastor” has also titled himself “Prophet” or “Apostle”.
Which is why Big-Name said pastors are pulling every political influence string they can at State and National levels to open up churches as “Essential Businesses” regardless of superspreader danger.
JUST LIKE SCIENTOLOGY AUDITING RECORDS!
(emphasis on “JUST LIKE SCIENTOLOGY!”)
Sjon,
Oops, here’s the link:
https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/reading-the-times-interview-with-mark-sayers/id391860262?i=1000472516924
Oh yeah! Mahaney self-declaring himself “Head Apostle” should have been a BIG clue that SGM was off the wall!
That was part of a line from one of my writing partners (the burned-out country preacher):
“If you come across a preacher who has titled himself ‘Prophet’ or ‘Apostle’, RUN!”
A serious question, so please hear it in a gentle tone. Will you please help me understand why claiming “first” is so offensive that people need to stop doing it? Whether we stay on topic or veer off, we risk offending someone with virtually any comment we post. I’d appreciate further insights, but don’t want to derail things…
What became of the chuckling one (Mahaney)?
Is he still in business?
Perhaps ‘those others’ who deem it so offensive should grow thicker skins?
I mean it’s not like drsteve is advocating dog-meat markets or wife beating.
Friend,
Sorry, maybe just me but ‘Juan’ could be interpreted to have racial overtones. I am not from the USA, but that would be my concern. I also thought that Steve had indicated he wouldn’t do this anymore out of respect for the feelings of others.
Just like a Roman catholic high demand new religious movement I knew, all too recently!
Which particular group was this?
Though knowing what I know about Trads, I predict they showed some of the following characteristics:
1) Tridentine Latin Mass ONLY.
2) Rejection of anything post-Vatican II (sometimes including all Popes after Pius XII).
3) Claims of Private Revelations (usually delivered by Mary).
4) Cultic behavior from these Private Revelations (such as the Baysiders and Hill-of-Hopers).
5) “Three Dark Days” eschatology (too long to detail here, but is a unique End-of-the-World choreography).
6) A lot of More-Devout-than-Thou One-Upmanship centering around Rosaries, Novenas, and other Catholic practices and rituals. Devotions to the point of neglecting “secular” responsibilities.
Points (1), (3), and (5) are characteristically-Catholic ways to Flake Out.
When it kicks off the comment thread on a tragic or bad-news subject, it looks real tacky.
This might be the strongest objection to a practice that’s also found on other blogs.
We really are here to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable. Someone is bound to be upset. I guess we just need to keep the Prime Directive in mind.
Sjon,
I guess I would wonder whether anyone would likely feel silenced or marginalized by the ways of an established but fluid group. My own practice, when I explore a blog that’s new to me, is to get a feel for the community of people who comment, and for what is not allowed. TWW is a very well managed site.
“Here is the problem. What do they define as sin that is worthy of church discipline?”
Yep, some even discipline for typing the word JUAN in the first post.
No these are not “trads”. The opposite of 1 & 2; 3-4 are very faint though it is very cultic; 5-6 are neglected.
(The jury should remain out about the substance of your no. 5 – as opposed to criticism-worthy behaviours)
I remember an AOG in the early 1970s run by women and where the music was acoustic trumpets.
I’m worried (among other things) by Anglican connections with Bethel Redding, and creepiness in Virgoism.
What flavor of Anglicanism, and what the heck is Virgoism?
Friend,
Thanks Friend. I‘ve been reading regularly here since around 2012/13 and agree that the site is very well managed. I have found Dee’s posts, the site and community here so helpful over the years and continue to learn much from others‘ comments and wisdom.
Sjon,
I didn’t mean to imply you were a noob. 🙂
I’ve always wondered what the “j” in your name stood for.
More seriously, I waded into this with some hesitation. The topic of the post is general, so I was surprised to see the objection pop up again. It would have been wiser for me just to let you respond. I’m sorry.
Oh yeah, he’s still out there. After fleeing to Louisville KY to be near his bud Al Mohler, he is now Senior Pastor at Sovereign Grace Church-Louisville.
https://www.sgclouisville.org/sovereign-grace-church-louisville-our-pastors
Sjon,
Thanks. I thought I was the only one who found it in rather poor taste.
Friend,
First is not the problem. “Juan” by many in the Hispanic community is seen as an insult because it is a stereotypical way of making fun of Hispanics who may not speak English well. I attend a Spanish-speaking congregation and have taught in the community for over 40 years, and it would not be thought funny at all. By the way, I’m not Hispanic-I’m “adopted.”
Muff Potter,
Imagine being a little kid at school where you are one of the few Spanish speakers with little English, and someone is counting Juan, two..,in a made-up accent. It’s worse when teens or adults do it.
the “j” in my name is for Johnson. In Spanish I am Esteban Juanhijo. I can speak Spanish well enough to do missions trips in Spanish speaking countries. Those reading things into my JUAN comment can think what they want as long as the Pugs are OK with it..
Linn,
Thanks Linn. Yes, it was the fact that that the use of ‘Juan’ could come across as casual racism that concerned me. I fully appreciate that would have been inadvertent on DrSteve’s part, so I thought that once he had himself considered this he would have been glad to avoid repeating it so that a) he would not be misconstrued and b) he would not cause offence to others.
DrSteve, I am sorry that mentioning this has upset you. Please know that this was the opposite of my intention.
Blessings everyone!
Not upset just clarifying. See the pugs are smiling.
I kept thinking of a newspaper comic strip I read as a kid (over 50 years ago), with a one-shot character named “Juan T Tree IV” from “a family of numerologists with a sense of humor”.
Friend,
Before I was in touch with the Bethelated version, I knew the Vineyard variety.
Virgoism is what I call things that sprang from Terry Virgo: Calvinist-Lutherish-Apostolic and vague.
Anyway, I’m in touch with some relatively balanced peaceable folks now, who don’t have much of a label (and especially not a non-label label). They like Wade are doing Colossians!
More than one? They are hard to find anywhere these days!
But I am happy for you.
Been there. Done that.
Actually, we’ve run right out the front door, in plain sight. More like Heavenly, though, as we were happy to move on out of the Hunting Grounds for predation. An NDA is, in the end, a set-up for predatory leadership, from the get-go.
Why didn’t we stay and fight the system? Because they, leadership, didn’t listen to us anyway. We voted with our feet and wallet when our vote didn’t count anyway. No point in wasting time/energy. No throwing pearls to swine, we shook the dust off our sandals and moved on, PDQ.
God is good. Evil is deadly.
Hear, hear. Indeed.
Would like to see Jesus emerge from the nebulae.
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The type of churches that burn you out and discard you like a round of ammunition.
The type of churches that spark either double-down fanaticism or “Take Your God And Shove It!” backlash atheism.
The word sounds kinda astrological to me.
Trenchant observations, although first the church uses people as if they were rounds, or arrows in a quiver.
Regarding atheism, I am sure some of it is backlash. More often, though, I think people lose their faith slowly and silently, because talking about doubt is taboo. They think long and hard about their beliefs, and pay a high price for deconverting. It does seem that a lot of American atheists come from fundagelical churches, and assume that all Christians believe exactly the same things (men rule the roost, etc.).
You can recover and re-use arrows.
Not so much firearms ammunition.
I love this blog and what it is doing. It helped me get out of a potentially toxic church situation many years ago (and I haven’t been back to a church since); however, please do not use the word, or any deforms of the word, “blind” (and in blindly) in a negative light. Blind people in our society have a hard enough time being accepted as a positive force in society and not a blight on the landscape without people using the word for the condition as though it is a curse or something negatively impacting the world. Watching how we use words like blind or lame or dumb really helps in a subtle but important way.
Sjon,
I’ve been reading this blog for over 6 years, and in that time I’ve seen quite a number of wise longtimers stop commenting here because someone got offended and attacked them. I hope you can understand that saying “first” is just a little personality quirk of Wartburg Watch going back quite a while. Dee used to tell the one who was first that they were faster than a cheetah or some such comment. It’s sort of like dark doctor humor I think. These are heavy and distressing topics we deal with here, and many of us found our way here because of some sort of spiritual abuse. It’s just our way. Please don’t be offended, there is so much going on right now to be upset about, this is something you can just ignore. Absolutely no disrespect is meant. Let’s not have Wartburg Watch be one more place where folks are ugly to each other. My community is full of hate to each other on social media, I hope we can stay away from that kind of thing here.
Arrows cost money.
Better to use conscripts drawn from the lower strata as infantry cannon fodder.
Leah Jacobs,
Well said. Thanks
What do you recommend as a replacement?
Leah Jacobs,
Thanks Leah. If you read what I said and the careful way I tried to say it, you will hopefully see that you are mistaken in assuming anything other than a respectful plea to not use the word ‘Juan‘ to say ‘one’ as it could mistakenly be taken as casual racism. I was not speaking of the practice of saying ‘1st’ at all. I find it difficult to understand why some find it ok to give an appearance of casual racism on a blog which stands for victims of abuse and injustice. I am sure most people in the USA or the UK where I am from do not think it is ok. I lost sleep over one of the responses and had to think hard how to respond as graciously as possible. Hope you understand.
That’s just his surname! I didn’t meet him, but I met men he mentored.
I’ve been uneasy about some assumptions. I gained my beliefs by hard inferring, in the teeth of my erstwhile denomination mates. I like to think you are affirming. The fault in the churches is the unbelief, the lack of inferring.
Jesus died to obliterate the power imbalance once and for all. The ground at the foot of the Cross is level. There is no intermediary between us and God, save Jesus Christ Himself. NDAs are a slap in the face to Jesus.
(Note: this has nothing to do with sin-leveling, BTW. Sin leveling is another attribute of hierarchical powers set up to let their predator BFFs off the hook as they propagate their Dark Side into “church” under the guise of “grace” and “forgiveness”.)
I’d be “easy” (ish) knowing (since he explained) he is signing it, and not caring whether anyone else knows. Before he chose that, I was about to suggest “1 Amen Glory Sister” because an old acquaintance of mine used to say things like that. Baggsy!
Michael in UK,
Doubting Thomas has done more than many to bolster my faith.
I got shouted at because I wanted to stop attending a movement on the third Wednesday (which was oath swearing) plus each time a Thursday, Saturday or Sunday activity came round. I thought it would be nice to tell them so they’d know, and I was there when a similar arrangement was made by someone else. So I had to drop out altogether because I wouldn’t want wheedling every time.
My friend asked where the monies in the same movement were going and got stonewalled. One or two of us later found out part sometimes goes towards bribes (via “territories”). Much is often destined for low-calibre “missions” comprising entertaining (in a certain country) such that “interesting foibles” of prominent people come to light at night.
It’s all carefully figured out. They boast who they mix with. It becomes obvious who does them favours, and at whose expense. They run manicured versions of business deals by us to make us feel implicated.
Funnily enough I never let them near meaningful amounts of my money. They even subsidised me slightly, on some objectively fairly nice trips. Overall, I’ve got to consider it funny and accept that a lot of people and organisations always were like that. Only while I swallowed the intense atmosphere whole, did I retain a po-faced attitude about it.
They figured out I wasn’t “material”, but I made up the “plausible cover” quotient in the membership and activities. One of our mantras was, we weren’t supposed to talk about things, outside the group. Such as what the elderly Mrs So & So’s “fantasies” were (that was sick).
They report and predict that everyone that leaves, has a nervous breakdown. I have earned the kudos of proving them right and attaining a better day. Some former members more important than me are in actual danger after leaving.
A man that stonewalled us when we asked a money question, used to volunteer to drive VIPs. When he suddenly dropped out (and now he never stops to converse about anything), the movement didn’t bother to look after them nearly so well, which led to consequences which I suspect they don’t care about.
The queer thing was, they did some good (compared with what else was going on) during the early days, mainly at times when the handlers / fixers weren’t breathing down our necks. A nasty aspect was fixing us up with one of their entertainment victims, as if we were doing him a favour. If they would aim to give you everything in 4 years and not string you along for 34, they would be of better repute. Sadly their wider denomination is now terminal anyway. Reputedly we had been once a _ always a _ . Reputedly it had been indelible (but they carelessly didn’t bother to tell my family “enough”).
Writing to say that I “should grow thicker skin/s” is ineffective, for me. Mine is very thick, but has holes.
This is one of the most insidious aspects of abusive churches. Good, innocent people lend their credibility, reputations, and endorsement to these congregations, in addition to giving money and time that will never come back to them. They recruit other good people.
If your church is bad, LEAVE. Do not prop up a wicked regime.
I just got some gorilla tape at home depot.
It’s the best stuff yet for patching holes in just about anything.
Michael in UK,
“They…”
“Sadly their wider denomination is now terminal anyway.”
++++++++++++++++++++
terminal, as in, folding? falling apart?
care to explain who “They” is? it’s all sort of cryptic
“…in just about everything…” For me, not this thing.
I suppose falling from faith is a reaction to faith. It’s never one thing but actually multiple little things. I had a good experience in church growing up. Backlash has angry connotations and I’m sure there are plenty with anger towards their faith. But anger doesn’t drive all people away.
Here’s the thing though – “atheist” has huge negative connotations in society. My wife will not call me an atheist – I just have an issue with faith. Even I don’t really like the word, though that’s pretty much where I’m at most days.
Fundamentalism is a state of mind that can attach itself to any belief system, including Atheism. Its possible that atheists who come from fundagelical churches learned Fundamentalism growing up in that church environment and took that Fundy attitude into Atheism. Effectively they exchanged one Fundy belief system for another Fundy belief system.
Indeed. Such preaching cheapens grace and pushes forgiveness where it should not go. Folks who attempt to cover unrepentant “predator BFFs” without accountability and judgement do not know God as they ought.
It’s not just Celebrity Megapastors who want “loyal and obedient cocker spaniels” for their Elder Boards:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/warren-buffett-berkshire-hathaway-annual-letter-morning-brief-110802826.html