Turtles practicing social distancing
Turtles who don’t understand social distancing.
Both photos by A. Scott Hewett
“God, who foresaw your tribulation, has specially armed you to go through it, not without pain but without stain.” – C.S Lewis
A couple of years back, I took an online course for pastors at the American Lutheran Theological Seminary. A friend thought it might be helpful for me to see what this denomination teaches about the role of pastors. The professor spoke at length about how to handle things like abuse, etc.
The thing that impressed me is how the Law and Gospel is integrated into how pastors in the LCMS or AALC respond to difficulties. They desire to love and support the people in the church. They are other centered and opposed to being self centered and self absorbed.
As I pondered this, I thought of those pastors in my life who reflected kindness and selflessness: Howard, Pete, Jim, Wade, Wayne (x2), Lew, Rich and Joanne. Each of these individual made a profound impact in my life. Yes, they can all give really good sermons. That’s not what I’m talking about.
I read a tweet by someone claiming that a current celeb pastor points to Jesus instead of himself. I’m not sure I believe that is true. However, I will concur with the sentiment. Each of these good pastors that I have mentioned supported me and made me feel valued and loved. They represented Jesus well and didn’t make their ministry about themselves.
Yesterday I read the following post at The Gospel Coalition website.
Church Leader, Pace Yourself During the Quarantineu
I was curious to see what was stressed by the author, David “Gunner” Gunderson. Before I began, I decided to read his bio at his church. May I make a suggestion? That is what all of you should do prior to reading a post by an unknown. It sometimes allows you to understand the background of the writer.
Given his background at Masters, I knew that I would be dealing with a pastor-centric view of the church. So, that is how I read this piece. It was about the overworked pastor.
Many leaders are doing the same thing right now as a worldwide disruption demands urgent decisions, adjustments, communication, and a different kind of energy. The relentless work is noble and understandable, but be warned: it’s not sustainable.
…Many leaders, teachers, administrators, supervisors, health workers, parents, and public servants are working overtime these days. You’re tracking the news, processing information, collaborating with others, making decisions, caring for your people, and implementing big adjustments both in your own lives and in your areas of responsibility.
But don’t stay in crisis mode for long.
“Don’t stay in crisis mode for long?” It seems to me that the author is overlooking the very real battles by those in his church who are facing this pandemic. Health car professionals are being called on to risk their own health to care for the victims of this disease. They often do so without protective devices such as masks and gloves.
People who work in supermarkets have their own battle with ornery customers demanding to buy more than their allotted number of toilet paper rolls. In their day to day life, they are being called to closely interact with customers, potentially exposing themselves to the virus. The truck drivers are working overtime carrying much needed goods to stores.
Most of these folks would like to get plenty of rest and walk along on beaches but they can’t at this time. That is what is known as a sacrifice.
He stated how hard he worked during Hurricane Katrina and how he needed to take a break and walk on a beach in Galveston. As contrast, I watched a pastor working himself into a sweat, loading trucks to bring much needed supplies to those impacted by Hurricanes Matthew and Florence. This included very heavy generators. There have been no sermons on how hard he worked during those times. He didn’t post an article in some online site for pastors. Instead, he complimented those in the congregation who helped in this endeavor. I smiled, knowing how hard he worked. Yet he was pointing the finger away from himself.
I would like to see this author write something about the sacrifice of many people who are working difficult jobs. They know they are being exposed and will not be able to take off to walk the beach. He could point to some of the people in his church who are sacrificing much in this pandemic. His people need to hear how much he appreciates their work. They need to have his support right now, in the midst of their weariness. Mo
Unlike a hurricane (and we get those here as well,) we face an enemy which is unrecognizable. In fact, it is likely that some of the people in the author’s orbit are unknowing carriers while others will get sick, perhaps due to their essential jobs. They need to hear from him something more than *get rest.*
I believe that Masters Seminary breeds pastors who are self focused on their sermons, their membership covenants and their authority. I would like to see them try a bit harder to be people focused. I know they can do it if they want.
1 BAM
The senior pastor at our last church was a Master’s seminary grad. Per Dee’s observations above…
Focused on sermons – check. Kept talking about how much he wanted the church to be a church of prayer and how awesome the Prayer & Worship Nights were, but (at least to my recollection) wasn’t willing to shorten his 50+ minute sermons to devote more time to prayer during the service. Small group questions were always sermon-centric.
Focused on membership covenant – check. Came up several times a month in sermons and/or announcements. Membership classes were held several times a year. If you came to the class with a signed membership covenant agreement in hand, you were given a “free” t-shirt emblazoned with the church logo. (“Free” in quotes because someone’s tithes were going to pay for that shirt.)
Focused on authority – check. Got defensive at any kind of questioning when the church was in the process of purchasing a building. Part of the membership covenant agreement includes a pledge to “neither criticize nor listen to criticism concerning any member(s) of the body…” We found out that clearly only went one direction.
I have been confronted with many crises over the last ten years- like many, many others. After years of trying to find new rhythms and the elusive strategies , I finally realized that my only rest is in Christ. There are some situations I don’t get to physically recharge from, but His yoke is easy, His burden light (even if I never get a beach trip!)..
Masters, Southern Seminary, Boyce …….. well, what can you expect. Sounds to like like the man is focusing his “work” on maintaining his authoritarian position ……… his glory. That may be what a self-centered King does, but it’s not what a leader does. It doesn’t matter if you are a church pastor, a teacher, a military leader, a missionary in Africa ……. Whatever………. the people you are leading must be your first priority.
Crisis mode??? You stay in crisis mode until the crisis is over!
To see what some of these first responders are doing and dealing with breaks my heart and warms it, all at the same time……… doctors, nurses, EMTs, firemen, police, hospital and nursing home janitors, trash collectors, teachers, parents, adult children, mail carriers, even teenagers are stepping it up for their classmates. ……. the list goes on and on.
Those people could teach Commander Gundersen a few things about leading.
After re-reading the “Leaders, Pace Yourself” article, I get where he’s coming from. I agree that we’re in a marathon right now, not a sprint. I agree that we need to let go of perfectionism, to trust God, and to care for ourselves so that we can care for others.
But then I realized the problem. I’m not a church leader! The author’s not even talking to me.
Well, I guess it’s back to the sprint, then.
Because much of his advice about avoiding burnout makes sense, I had to think for a minute about why I found this article so disturbing. It is hard to argue against the example of Jesus, who was a good role model for pacing himself, delegating, and taking proper rest. I am disturbed by his total lack of empathy for his parishioners, who had become homeless while he relaxed on the beach. He also arrogantly inserts himself as the person in charge of the rescue and home rehabilitation work.
I’ve been very curious what most of the pastors and staff in SB churches are doing during this time to help their congregation. Folks are scared, exhausted, broke, feeling helpless, and low on faith. Where are these pastors, the Shepherds of the flock? My husband was teaching at a local SB church, as a guest teacher, had not joined the congregation yet, but faithfully teaching each Wed night. Not one phone call to check on us. I have brought my Mother home out of her facility to care for her. It was the right thing to do given the circumstances there. In the four years I’ve been her guardian I took care of her one year at home and it nearly killed me. Now it’s happening again with no end in sight. This weekend my neighbor was power-washing his teeny 6 x 10 deck for 2 hours. This after nearby construction had been rumbling and roaring and vibrating my house for 2 weeks. I had a meltdown. Opened my back door and screamed STOP IT! WHAT THE H*LL! A new friend, a chaplain and former pastor, was sitting out front with my husband. They definitely heard me. Everyone heard me except Mr. Bored and Meticulous, who continued intensely. I went out front to husband and chaplain crying. He didn’t pray for us, just acted like he could care less. Since we have no church due to issues many here have had, we walk this path alone like so many others. Many of the pastors and staff are MIA. On the people’s dime. By the way, I walked over to neighbor’s house and asked him to take a break. Got snarly, but he did.
Our church stresses small groups. Our small group leader is more a pastor to us than any of the four actual pastors. The leadership says as much. That in a church of 1,600 one has to meet with others in addition to weekly church and adult education classes. The folks you meet with every other week or so know you best and care the most. And during this pandemic people who supervise various outreach groups have been checking in on the people who have been working in those ministry fields.
There are good churches and bad churches. Don’t waste time with the bad ones. It’s too depressing.
I’m so very sorry you’re going through so much. I’ve prayed for you and your family. I hope very much that things get better for you soon. ((HUGS))
https://expreacherman.com/
This part of the article struck me:
*Remember, Jesus’s whole ministry was a crisis. When he wasn’t on the road, traveling from town to town, spreading his message and sleeping wherever his entourage was received, he was surrounded by the desperate, the hostile, the calculating, or those looking for a show.*
What’s interesting is how he describes the people who came to Jesus.They are characterised as desperate and rather pathetic, hostile and calculating, or superficial (‘looking for a show’)
In my view this is quite revealing of how Gunning views his own ‘flock’. He puts himself in the place of Jesus (the pastor surrounded by needy people, like he was in the hurricane) and the people around him are weak, evil, or plain silly.
Some TGC pastors are far too busy writing the superfluous articles they deem essential, to expend much energy caring for the needs of ordinary church members.
Take this example of a TGC article by Andy Davis, paper of First Baptist Church, Durham (if I remember correctly Dee posted some time back about his hostile 9 Marks style take over of this church):
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/coronavirus-response-to-nt-wright/
Mr Davis misses the entire point of NT Wright’s excellent article, to the extent that it is hard to believe he read it properly. On the one hand Mr Davis twists NT Wright’s message and on the other talks over the top of it. The main purpose of Mr Davis’s article is not to thoughtfully engage but simply to shoot at NT Wright, attempting to win plaudits from the members of his TGC club for taking down an author they deem not to be trusted.
NT Wright’s excellent clear, reasoned, compassionate, Biblically well-founded article is to be found here:
https://time.com/5808495/coronavirus-christianity/
Let the contrasting articles speak for themselves. Was Jesus himself more concerned with care and compassion or with point scoring pot-shots?
“a pastor-centric view of the church”
Dee, you nailed it with this short phrase. As I’ve been a member in a church influenced by 9Marks, Masters, Sovereign Grace, etc… I have started to notice the same thing. In those ministries’ publications there’s a strong emphasis on meeting the qualifications of a pastor, maintaining authority , preaching, etc… (all types of “individual” activities that don’t really require the cooperation or synergy of a congregation to minister to itself and outside itself) there is much less of an emphasis on “equipping the church for the work of ministry”. I’m willing to think this may be harmful for pastors who find themselves in this milieu. So much is focused on the pastor as opposed to the congregation. I can see it leading to burnout and dysfunction, even among the most loving pastors. However, even though our church is influenced by these types of YRR ministries, at our church two pastors have both reached out to me via text multiple times (as well as many other members of the congregation) and we have a pandemic response team (run by the congregation) that’s running meals and supplies to people. I think there’s a lot of good residing in the people, even if the influences may be “off”.
Once again, the New Calvinists demonstrate just how un-pastoral they really are. A true man of God never complains about being overworked ministering to hurting people. A real-deal pastor runs to the crisis; he doesn’t dodge crisis mode. I’m glad that TGC continues to open their mouth in times like these; it’s enlightening to folks who follow them, many of which are waking up to the selfish hearts of their leaders.
“a pastor-centric view of the church”
When my daughter taught kindergarten, she had one little girl who always wanted to be first in line to the cafeteria, first to answer questions, first to be hugged at the door, etc. She kept yelling “What about me?! What about me?!” My daughter finally took her aside one day and told her “Honey, this class is not about ‘you’. Look around you at the other children. It’s about ‘us’.” The toddler understood that rebuke and merged into the group, rather than standing out from it, for the rest of the year. These young reformers who call themselves “pastors” (not a title God assigned them) remind me of that little girl. Thanks Dee for pointing out their self-centeredness and calling them to “try a bit harder to be people focused.” The church was not created for the pastor; the office of pastor was created for the church.
Paul K,
Amen…. the “purification” of American Christianity is well underway…
Sjon,
Thank you!!! I felt the same way when I read his attempted takedown of NT Wright. In fact, I was thinking about writing a post. There is an arrogance in this group of people which results in a *know it all* approach.
Wow! You sum up my concerns about this group with this great example. It is not about *us.* It’s about them.
You ever notice how Anglican and Lutheran pastors aren’t generally celebrity pastors? I think it’s because the sermon is not central to their services; the Eucharist is.
It’s worth writing a post because the TGC article cannot be attributed to mere misunderstanding. I read both articles and I think TGC missed the mark as much as is humanly possible. They must assume that their readers do not do any fact checking. This should be a wake up call for TGC followers to learn to discern.
Churchgoers are often pastorcentric, and it takes tact and skill to free them.
Our clergy work exceedingly hard. They are always present when needed. They also make a point of not attending every single group meeting from start to finish. Why? They want to empower us. They want us to look to one another.
One time I was overseeing a big reception, and our pastor quietly came into the hall. Naturally, everyone turned and paid attention to him. I went over to say hello, and he apologized for interrupting. He was there to help a volunteer carry cases of canned goods to a storage closet.
I know him to be a humble man, and he is also a confident scholar, preacher, manager, and leader. He has spent decades carefully keeping his ego in check, and guarding against slipping into the role of celebrity.
I always knew it would take desperate times in America for the wheat to be separated from the chaff. These are not times for Christianity Lite, church as entertainment, or theological platforms which distort the Gospel. I saw the “Church” in my area yesterday shopping for the elderly; there wasn’t a professional “pastor” among them – they were the pastors!
They may have missed THE mark, but I don’t believe they missed THEIR mark!
If so, this could be a good side of this bad thing in America.
If their pastor continually pointed them to Jesus, it wouldn’t be so hard to break free. If Christ was truly the center of all that is done in church, pastor-worship would cease to exist. The precious Name of Jesus just doesn’t get the sermon air time that it used to in the American church. God, deliver us from this new breed of preachers.
It also has to do with seminary training and culture. Seminarians can be taught to ask members, “What do you think?” “What do you need?” “How can I help?” They can also learn practices of humility and service. Older and wiser faculty can constantly adjust seminarians’ expectations for three solid years.
Some candidates go through a lengthy discernment process, guided by a committee of mere pew dwellers. It’s a huge investment of time by the committee, which sees the person all the way through ordination and beyond. A lot of candidates get weeded out early, or leave voluntarily.
Totally agree, Max! But I do see a problem with pastors who constantly yell the precious name of Jesus, thereby drawing every particle of attention toward their highly important selves.
Max,
Yup…. Until March 12, I avoided political comments on my FaceBook, and hear at TWW… except GBTC told me I did cross the line 🙂
But, I have started on FB, when the politics is related to the science of this pandemic, and the misinformation put out by our leaders….. and guess who I have had the most “flamers”? The fundies…… they are downright scary…
Oh yeah, the new reformers get extra brownie points from TGC when they rub the face of their theological opponents in the mud. When they earn enough merit badges for being bad-boys in defense of the movement and its message, they get to mingle with the elite. Being a bad-boy brings you into the presence of the big-boys. Thinking they have arrived, they have instead fallen deeper into the pit. When the New Calvinist movement fades into obscurity, they will too.
Many of us done church members have received the love, support, encouragement, from those body of believers who love Jesus as their own, and whom follow Him rather than leaders, pastors, or any denominational church system.
I find it interesting how the sifting of those who love Christ, verses those who go through the motions to be somebody within the religious structure. While leaders say “we are to worship Christ Jesus,” in retrospect, they are the ones who secretly desire to be worshipped, patted on the back for their amazing sermons and wonderful leadership/lording it over, and the end game is desiring a following for and unto themselves. If we do not worship the pastor, the church boards, the deacons and elders, popes/cardinals/nuns or any other individual who holds a religious title, we are considered useless to the fake chrisitan structure. These individuals are labeled bitter, angry, holding a grudge, unbelievers, jezebel spirits, unsaved, and other abusive names all designed to inhibit mockery, fear, control, manipulation, and brainwashing.
We are called to worship only One, Jesus Christ as our LORD and Savior, not any way of man. I am not worried about the state of the church system here in America, for the word Ichabod appears above the door posts of many a church building. We are called to be the church of Jesus Christ, every day and wherever we go, as in the good Samaritan, not the one day a week and sitting in a pew under a pastor who thinks he knows a god better than anyone else.
The coronavirus does not distinguish the importance of people, meaning the leadership of religious institutions, governments, or any other social institution, as it infects anyone. Church goers ALL distinguish the importance of persons, giving much mercy and grace upon those who are deemed more spiritual based of the works of man. This is why it is far easier to share the Glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ to a non-churched member in a day and age where we have been brainwashed that church attendance is mandatory to the entrance of a Heavenly Paradise in the midst of our LORD.
I am so grateful and thankful that unchurched people have called, checked up on me and my family, and love me as Christ loves His Ecclesia.
This one thousand times…
You are welcome, Dee and thanks for your post.
What you said here was great:
“I would like to see this author write something about the sacrifice of many people who are working difficult jobs. They know they are being exposed and will not be able to take off to walk the beach. He could point to some of the people in his church who are sacrificing much in this pandemic. His people need to hear how much he appreciates their work. They need to have his support right now, in the midst of their weariness.”
The many self sacrificial ‘people who are working difficult jobs’ (whether healthcare workers or supermarket workers, delivery drivers etc.) are not generally people who say ‘look at me and what a difficult job I am doing’. Instead they tend to simply get on and do it without recognition, for the sake of others. Whilst they don’t seek the limelight, let’s be those who notice and encourage, join in to help if and when we can.
It would be wonderful if those pastors that can and those Christians that can join with the many people of all faiths and non who are volunteering to help with the Coronavirus crisis in any way they can, as time, age and health permit.
Those pastors that genuinely care for people will quietly get on and serve their church members and their communities in this time – they are likely to remain busy. By contrast those that have narcissistic tendencies will be getting withdrawal symptoms from their weekly Sunday spot in the limelight and the backslapping of their followers. They may seek to draw attention to themselves in new ways, or simply take a break.
And at this time of uncertainty, the man called John Calvin, never saved anyone!
Oh yeah, those guys are as scary as the new reformers who hardly ever mention Jesus. One misuses His Name to draw attention to themselves; the other neglects His Name to make sure they don’t get upstaged.
Yes I have noticed.
Many of the folks who comment here have endless tales of the bad times they’ve endured at independent ‘pastor centric’ churches.
Maybe they should try Lutheranism or Anglicanism for change?
They’re not perfect (mainlines), not by a long shot, but at least they’re not the micro-managed dictatorships they fled.
John MacArthur to his followers yesterday: coming soon, our very own Bible version, with an absolutely accurate text — the L.S.B.!
A Message from Our Pastor – April 1, 2020
https://vimeo.com/402824903
Halfway through the video he announces that he has six of his men working on correcting the New American Standard Bible.
Apparently he has secured the permission of the Lockman Foundation to produce a derivative translation of its New American Standard bible (similar to how the ESV was an adaptation of the National Council of Churches’ RSV).
“…the Legacy Standard Bible, it’s gonna…have the absolutely accurate, consistent text…it’s our men from the University and the Seminary who are doing this ‘refining’ translation”
Friend,
I think you’re right; I hope I’m learning to be less “pastor-centric” myself
Interesting title because “legacy” now mostly means outdated or no longer relevent.
Yes, John, there were no Bible translators before you and your men over centuries of time who were ‘refining’ enough to provide “absolutely accurate, consistent text”!
I’ve said it before … there is no shortage of arrogance in New Calvinist ranks (or is JMac an “Old” Calvinist?).
I bet “our men” refine the heck out of Galatians 3:28!
Ha! That’s all I need to know about it.
Our pastor spent several hours on Monday making phone calls to the members of our “most senior” Sunday School class, checking on any needs they have and spending time in conversation with each one. His takeaway – that one of the things he misses most is being with the people who encourage him in his faith. That’s a win-win at any time!
With only 6 people working on it instead of 70 he will not be calling it a Septuagint. But the Latin word for 6 leaves him intriguing possibilities…
I suspect that the intention is to make this John MacArthur’s legacy…
You can bet that “our women” had nothing to do with it!
Oh, JMac has already made his impact on Christendom … the MacArthurites will mess the church up for decades to come … that will be his legacy.
It’s also a discredited way to get into selective colleges. I wonder if this Bible is pitched at ambitious people who take shortcuts?
And a bible ‘doctored’ by JMac will add to the mess…
Yes, an even bigger mess than the ESV Study Bible.
Muff Potter,
Actually I was thinking of the conservative Lutheran and Anglican churches like LCMS and ACNA in America and conservatives in the UK like N.T.Wright and Rico Tice.
LSB: in geek: “Least Significant Bit” “Least Significant Bible” LSB ?
Ok, perhaps telling us about a 4 day vacation one took in the middle of hurricane recovery efforts isn’t wise, especially since we don’t yet know when the crisis will end.
However, I’m not sure a reminder for people to take breaks and rest is a bad thing. Even the healthcare workers can’t and won’t be working 24/7. If people don’t rest, they won’t be able to help others for long.
Certainly such an admonition can be perverted into an excuse for laziness, but the Bible does command people to take a Sabbah. Am I missing something?
Karen,
“I am so grateful and thankful that unchurched people have called, checked up on me and my family, and love me as Christ loves His Ecclesia.”
++++++++++++
i find people off all faiths and no faiths act in such charitable ways. (perhaps you meant this by ‘unchurched people’)
My muslim, hindu, and agnostic friends and relatives have called and checked up on me, and made themselves available to help if needed.
for christians to do this is certainly the good and right way to be ‘the body of christ’.
while it is special in how good and right it is, it is at the same time nothing special — people in the so-called “world” (the evil, worldly world) do these exact same things.
Oh, these poor pastors and the terrible burden they are carrying. Not the burden of empathy with the people they are called to serve, apparently, but the burden of putting up with them. It’s a real catch 22- you can’t be an important pastor without plenty of followers but then you have to put up with all those annoying followers and their needs.
BTW, it seems that church services may be a substantial way the virus has been spreading. Makes me wonder about the role of church nurseries in that, too. https://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2020/04/01/sacramento-county-coronavirus-church-gatherings/
Off-topic, disappointing results to the latest study of hydroxychloroquine in treating Covid-19: https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/a-new-study-questions-the-effectiveness-of-a-potential-game-changer-against-the-coronavirus
as Friend noted above, “Legacy” is college lingo for a sort of nepotism, so a fitting name for something associated with MacArthur.
Also, MacArthur’s son Mark is apparently the go-between for the publisher and his dad’s GTY ‘ministry’ [this is not the son-in-law, that’s another matter]:
https://316publishing.com/new-bible-announcement/
‘Steadfast Bibles’: “the NASB was the Bible [our president] knew and loved…Mark MacArthur too had a love for the NASB and the two men discussed how other publishers’ marketing power was overshadowing the NASB…Soon, the two men were in Mark’s dad’s office, discussing what, if anything could be done to help the NASB…We are especially grateful for the kindness of our friends at the Lockman Foundation, Pastor MacArthur for his input and encouragement along the journey, and his son Mark who has proven to be a faithful advisor.”
https://316publishing.com/childrens-bible-backstory/
‘Steadfast Bibles’: “our friend and advisor, Mark MacArthur took a mock-up of our NASB Children’s Edition to show his dad. We were thrilled when we received Pastor MacArthur’s endorsement!”
Mark MacArthur was recently in the news for other stuff:
https://religionnews.com/2020/02/24/son-of-pastor-john-macarthur-charged-in-16-million-investment-scheme/
“The Securities and Exchange Commission on Feb. 12 charged…Mark MacArthur and Robert Gravette with failing to reveal financial conflicts of interest when recommending certain investments to their clients between 2014 and 2017…MacArthur and Gravette are both alumni from Master’s University”
Point taken, but neither movement sprang out of nowhere. You mentioned that “the sermon is not central to their services; the Eucharist is.” This is built into liturgy throughout Lutheranism and Anglicanism (and Roman Catholicism, from which Lutherans and Anglicans draw their liturgies).
LCMS has been around since 1847, some time after Luther’s own life (1483-1546). ACNA was founded in 2009; Henry VIII lived from 1491 to 1547.
Friend,
Godith, I did not mean for the comment above to be at all combative. It’s just general information, since the liturgical traditions are not discussed terribly often on TWW, except when the beloved Daughter of Stan tells us about her great LCMS experiences. 🙂
When you get right down to it, the church is to be cleric centric. But wait–there’s more!!
Little secret: there is no laity. None. Nada. Zip. Believers are every one priests, called to serve.
That we have allowed some to be like the little girl yelling “what about me” speaks as badly of us as of them.
Let each of us be about our Father’s business and ignore the whiney me first brats. Like ignoring a toddler having a tantrum.
But it isn’t their job to coddle us. It IS our job to be on the job ministering to others ourselves. Only when we realize we are all clergy, called to serve, will this idea of how the preacher should minister to me go away. And that will make the hirelings run for the hills when they get no ego stroke from FELLOW SERVANTS.
Friend,
I don’t understand what difference it makes to know the origin of Lutheranism or Anglicanism. The point is that nowadays we don’t hear a lot about celebrity pastors in those denominations.
Well, I think you’re on to something! When preaching is subordinate to the Eucharist, it’s harder for the preacher to be the star of the show. And it’s been that way a long time, specifically because preaching is not the main event.
Long ago I went to churches where Communion was almost sneered at as an obligation. The attitude really puzzled me; I always come away from Communion feeling more peaceful and more inclined to improve myself.
(Disclaimer: Liturgy does not prevent corruption.)
The folks at P&P have been getting pretty worked up over church closings: https://pulpitandpen.org/. Most of their recent articles focus on this. Does anyone take them seriously?
Ken F (aka Tweed),
Wow… I just read some of the post….. just wow…
My pet theory is that Eduardo Moreno, 44, of San Pedro, CA, was reading Pulpit and Pen shortly before he tried to drive his train into the USNS Mercy. 😉
https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/man-tried-to-derail-train-to-wreck-navy-hospital-ship-mercy-over-coronavirus-suspicions-feds-say/2339287/
Reminds me of something from Chesterton(?) regarding Black Magick.
“The Dark Powers” have a reputation for Getting Things Done, but the sorcerer has to do some really mean and vile things — “being a bad-boy” — to attract their attention and gain access to their Power.
In recent years I’ve been wondering whether it might be that vocal opposition, in the name of Christ or of the Bible, to climate science might have long term negative consequences for the churches — getting something really important really wrong could be really bad for one’s reputation. I have been wondering whether it might happen that, if the outcomes are really bad, the reputational damage might be so severe that certain strands of Christianity might come to be regarded to be a “menace to public health”.
I never imagined that this possibility might arise so soon.
And no paycheck.
There was a day – Middle Ages maybe? – when clergy, men & women, took vows of chastity, simplicity of lifestyle, & submission to our Higher Calling, “I do nothing on my own. I do only the Father’s will.” No private planes in that crowd. Not even First Class. They flew coach with the rest of us.
We found this lovely little Methodist Church after being” dones” for 10 years. The Pastor has called us 3 times since the shelter in place started in TheBay Area. He goes grocery shopping for the elderly and infirm in the congregation. And by his example several others have volunteered also. He is setting up Zoom so we can have our regular Tuesday morning bible study. This was a very small dying church. Because of the Pastors live and caring we have had 2 young families join in the last 4 months.#nevermegachurchagain.
Godith,
If I were to ever darken the door of a Church again, it would probably be the liberal wing of Lutheranism (ELCA).
A snake is going to defend another snake. An accused child molester defending a white-washed septic tank grandstanding and tempting God to act: https://www.foxnews.com/us/roy-moore-advising-louisiana-pastor-charged-holding-large-gatherings-coronavirus
The cynic in me suspects that it won’t have any consequences, or not a lot. The few individuals in those churches that are not completely brainwashed will probably leave, but the rest – the “truly faithful” – will double down, together with their leaders. And climate change, which they deny at every turn ATM, will – as soon as it can no longer be denied because it’s so obvious that charlatans leading those churches can’t explain it away – will be declared as a “punishment from God” for the rest of us, for our depraved lives.
The non-cynic in me thinks that the disappearance of certain forms of “christianity” can’t happen soon enough. Yesterday would be 40 years too late, at least. But one can always hope.
You will never get rid of the true fanatics, the fundamentalists of all stripes, united in their hatred of women and freedom of thought. But the large number of scam artists exploiting the gullibility of the churched masses might have to find alternate employment.
Actually there’ve been many good examples cited in this thread, but this is as good a one as any to pick up on!
The Beeb website carried a wee page yesterday with the link header “The minimum-wage heroes”. As you’d probably guess, it pointed to the supermarket workers, cleaners and drivers who are effectively front-line staff in the crisis but who are not in traditionally highly-paid roles.
In the same way, there seems to be a kind of inverse relationship between the amount of money a professional clergyman makes, and the extent to which (s)he lives according to the example Jesus himself set, having come among us as one who serves rather than coming to be served. So the full-time ministers (and the unpaid ones, come to that) who are truly valuable under Jesus’ kingship are the ones who are valued least by the worldly systems which drive the megachurch values.
elastigirl,
We had this philosophy shoved down our throats at the last church we attended (all of those evil and worldly people.) We were led to believe that those evil, wicked, depraved, and worldly people lived outside of the institutional church which were brainwashed to believe they knew jesus and cared about people more than anyone else.
Much of the church institution lends, hides, supports, and embraces much evil, wickedness, and worldliness all in the name of a false jesus, worshipping people as false gods, instead of the Living Christ. Many of Jesus’ saints, love, worship, serve mankind, and live and follow lives that emulate Christ’s Ways outside of institutionalism because they experience that true freedom, liberty, and grace that He speaks of and lived while walking this earth.
Jesus worshipped no man and He called us to love God and love our neighbor as ourselves.
I’m not worried about the worldliness of those unchurched members or the unbelievers, for the lifestyles of the churched that I have observed and served, witnessed, and blindly defended for forty five years, draw a parallel line in the sand. There new under this sun, when it shines.
The Sex Dominus Bible? (Latin for “Six Boss”)
Samuel Conner,
I think it is already happening…. I could go on and on, as to why, but I am getting weary..
Samuel Conner,
“In recent years I’ve been wondering whether it might be that vocal opposition, in the name of Christ or of the Bible, to climate science might have long term negative consequences for the churches — getting something really important really wrong could be really bad for one’s reputation. I have been wondering whether it might happen that, if the outcomes are really bad, the reputational damage might be so severe that certain strands of Christianity might come to be regarded to be a “menace to public health”.”
+++++++++++++++
where i live, no one seems to respect the christian church. except the people who go.
from so many conversations and interactions with people in my community and general observation, it seems to be regarded as a dangerous bastion of stupid ignorance, self-righteousness, hypocrisy, self-entitlement…
That will be difficult to beat.
The US government reported today that the employment gains for the last 10 years, aka back to 2010, have been wiped out by Covid 19. It will continue to get worse.
Not having the answer myself, how can Christians help?
it isn’t just a US thing
https://apnews.com/4896e6623e4200b927b935b647f401bd
Brian,
It’s not just believers; we need to recover “community” beyond the theological tribe that we previously would periodically commute to gather with.
If you have a sunny patch of soil and nothing more urgent to do, plant a vegetable garden. The commercial growers are going to be under stress; some of them depend on seasonal labor who may not be available, or who may be unwell.
There are zillions of other useful adaptations; that this one comes immediately to mind may be due to peculiarities unique to me.
If acceptance of global warming/climate change by a church is a prerequisite for a person to decide on a church to attend….
Samuel Conner,
-Put stuffed animals in your windows to make walks more interesting to children.
-Use a daily walk to interact with neighbors.
-Donate money to food banks.
-If a business is taking good care of customers right now, email them some praise, and maybe put up a favorable review.
-Check up on more of your dear ones by phone, email, or text.
-Safeguard your own health.
-See if you can help strengthen anyone else in your circle. As you noted earlier than most on TWW, isolation poses risks too.
Samuel Conner,
Brian was alerting us regarding isolation.
/ReplyFail
Samuel Conner,
“we need to recover “community” beyond the theological tribe that we previously would periodically commute to gather with”
+++++++++++
i really love this idea, and think it is past time to embrace it
i have long wanted to have an ‘ecumenical’ prayer event where people of all faiths and no faiths can come together to pray or meditate for specific things for the common good.
there are always reasons to do this, but certainly in times of crisis.
i’ve mentioned it to a few people in my prayer group and one or two are on board. i know others find it totally wrong and compromising.
i’ve looked into organizing one. Thought through a format, a way to do it, did some research, talked to a local merchant about using his facility.
from fellow christians, i got a little bit of encouragement, but the general response has been like being pounded by a wave of terror and anger.
it’s discouraging to me, how insular and frightened christian culture seems to be about everything other than itself. it seems so totally unreasonable.
i look at it this way:
in the unlikely even that any of us is stranded on a deserted island with a muslim, a hindu, a buddhist, a wiccan (any or all), when things become desperate enough, we will find a way to pray together, or to seek help from the divine. we will find a way to work together for a common purpose.
theologically-inspired walls and paranoias will evaporate & no longer matter.
why wait til then?
I think there has been a lot of just ‘trying’ things and hoping they work out. Some things may work but others have been neutral or harmful. That’s why we test!
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
You mean all nine of them? 🙂
From my daily reading Zech. 6: “I looked again, and there before me was a flying scroll.
He asked me, ‘What do you see?’
I answered, ‘I see a flying scroll, twenty cubits long and ten cubits wide.’
And he said to me, ‘This is the curse that is going out over the whole land; for according to what it says on one side, every thief will be banished, and according to what it says on the other, everyone who swears falsely will be banished. The Lord Almighty declares, “I will send it out, and it will enter the house of the thief and the house of anyone who swears falsely by my name. It will remain in that house and destroy it completely, both its timbers and its stones.”’”
You made me think of Reagan’s famous exhortation:
“Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!”
Just replace ‘Gorbachev’ with those in your group (collectively) who wanna’ remain insular, and it still applies today just as it did in Berlin all those years ago.
That’s because there aren’t any (celebrity pastors).
They have strong central governments (Lutheranism and Anglicanism) that will not tolerate tribal strongmen seizing power and doing their own thing.
Desmond Tutu is definitely a shining star of the Anglican Communion, but I would not call him a celebrity pastor.
Posted on 9Marks yesterday:
https://www.9marks.org/article/fighting-the-temptations-of-successful-leadership/
Some quotes:
Ken F (aka Tweed),
“Yet the work of raising up your lessers…”
++++++++++++++++++
his lessers???
i think i’m going to be sick.
so, how does this work? do these men in pastor hats take wisdom-strength-&-responsibility pills?
the chewable kind, in 3 different fun colors, crunching them with their tall soy caramel macchiato latte with no foam and extra sweet?
….they actually think they’re inherently superior to everyone else in their church in these categories??
i laughed out loud at that one.
Muff Potter,
““Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!””
+++++++++++
no matter what a person thinks of Ronald Reagan, that is such a powerful moment caught on film. i just love the controlled righteous anger, very justified.
Last summer, an outstanding academic preached a sermon at our church. Afterward, in the handshake line, I expressed mild disagreement about one point. He heard me out and then said, “I’d like to know more about your views. If you want to, please email me at the seminary.” So I did, and he replied, and both of us learned something new.
Did he treat me as an equal? I’d say he treated me even better than that. He seemed to consider it a privilege that someone listened carefully, and formed and shared an opinion.
Friend,
When one is truly trying to learn/understand something, you learn the most when someone strongly, and thoughtfully disagrees… As a “academic” I spend the a large amount of my time writing research proposals for money to fund my lab, and write and review papers. The review process of proposals and papers is called “peer review”. While most of my papers get published after several rounds of review, greater than 90 % of the proposals I write get rejected… Maybe 50% get funded after MANY rounds of review… Do I “like” have proposals/papers heavily criticized? Of course not! Does a better product eventually get produced? For papers, most definitely yes, for proposals, mostly..
Ken F (aka Tweed),
I love the English language. Mr. Leeman does a disservice to it.
He states, “Yet the point of authority is to author. To create. To plant and grow and build up.” Um, no. The point of authority is POWER. Two years of Latin may have helped me pick up on this, but any common sense combined with an English dictionary will come to the same conclusion.
When I see people getting deceptive with the meaning of words, I wonder what they’re trying to hide.
He says, “God has established real offices like parent, pastor, or prince that come with real authority.” This is comparing apples to oranges. A parent only holds authority while their child is young; the older a child gets, the less they’re under a parent’s authority. And if dementia sets in, the parent will come under a child’s authority.
The position of prince/king was only established in the kingdom of Israel because the Israelites whined about it, and God told them he would establish a king, but that the Israelites would regret it.
As for the position of pastor… Is Mr. Leeman really saying, in all of his claims toward “equality” in this piece, that a pastor should be training up every single member of the congregation to also be a pastor (women, too)? While I personally think that every Christian should be a “pastor” of sorts, my definition holds the title “pastor” much more loosely than 9marks seems to.
The article brilliantly captures the problem with 9Marx and perhaps the whole YRR movement. They appear to view everything through the lens of authority, power, control, hierarchy, and roles (there must be one word that captures all of this). I have been in positions of leadership for nearly all of my adult life and I can never remember a time when I thought of my colleagues as beneath me, or under me, or lesser than me, or not equal to me. His emphasis on this type of language is appalling.
He actually made a good case for women being pastors, but I don’t think he sees this.
The word is “dictatorial.” To such leaders, Paul says:
“I say to everyone of you not to think more highly of himself [and of his importance and ability] than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has apportioned to each a degree of faith [and a purpose designed for service].” (Romans 12:3 AMP)
The office of Pastor – as called by God – is “designed for service” … church leaders are not to be overlords.
Those of you caught up in the 9Marks system of doing church, use your pandemic stay-at-home time to clear the theological cobwebs out of your mind. Do the right thing and don’t return to the pandemic of Christendom called New Calvinism.
Immersing yourself in a task does make you the expert, but oh that second pair of eyes…
“There is no Right, there is no Wrong, there is only POWER.”
— Lord Voldemort
“The only goal of Power is POWER. And POWER consists of inflicting maximum suffering among the powerless.”
— Comrade O’Brian, Inner Party, Airstrip One, Oceania, 1984
“POWER is Power.”
— Queen Cersei Lannister, Game of Thrones
Positive peer pressure: This morning I was on a conference call for a nonprofit. Our leader recommended that we wait till May to decide whether to cancel our May luncheon meeting. One or two folks sounded like they were playing along. The leader forged ahead, talking about how people will be eager to get out and see one another.
Finally someone mentioned that our state is under an indefinite stay-at-home order. The dam burst. Our guest speaker eagerly offered to postpone till autumn. Someone mentioned that our bylaws allow us to conduct all business electronically. Another person said that canceling the May event now would help people understand the danger of the virus.
Ultimately the leader agreed to email the whole organization to cancel the May buffet, encourage people to stay home, and offer members’ support to meet one another’s needs and break their isolation.
Feudalism.
And it’s not just the neo-cal version.
Papa Chuck (founder of Calvary Chapel) ruled with an iron hand long ago and was as revered as Chairman Mao was in a bygone China.
My wife’s church sent us a heartwarming letter. Asking how we’re doing. And reminding us that giving is down.
Lol. They haven’t reached out in the 20 years she’s gone there. But this year she got a birthday card & we got an anniversary card from the pastor.
Which was kind of creepy because she doesn’t remember giving that information out.
Wasn’t me. I haven’t attended for quite awhile now.
It proves to me what I’ve known for a long time. Ultimately it’s all about the money.
It’s interesting to see her reaction. How a church acts now may determine it’s future.
Now maybe the sudden love bombing may be sincere. I have my doubts…
Reading these quotes from Jonathan Leeman’s 9 Marks article earlier today made me feel physically ill. I have now read the whole article and it makes my skin crawl.
What Leeman presents here with patronising arrogance and hubris, is the antithesis of Biblical leadership. How can Leeman have read the gospels, have examined the life of Christ, have met Immanuel (God with us), have read and understood the Pauline epistles and reached these appalling conclusions?
I had naively thought that Leeman, Dever and their 9 Marks pastor followers were unaware of their own arrogance and authoritarianism. Now I see that they are blatantly teaching arrogance and authoritarianism as truth, teaching pastors that it is their biblical role to knock the sheep into shape so that maybe, just maybe, those sheep will also attain to an standard whereby they are deemed worthy enough to knock others into shape.
Folks, please run, run, run from this mockery of Christianity, which is so unlike Jesus that I fear for the well-being of those who are promoting it.
Ken, I complete agree with you. I cannot comprehend the mindset of Leeman and his ilk.
Max, thank you for putting things straight. I agree with you and more importantly so does Scripture.
Has Leeman forgotten that the only righteousness worth anything to the Christian is Christ’s righteousness freely gifted to us?
Therefore there is no room for hierarchy amongst Christians, no higher and lower Christians – we are all one in Christ Jesus.
I can.
Everything is Power Struggle. EVERYTHING.
A Zero-Sum Game where the only way to get more for ME! ME! ME! is to take it away from You.
Where the only way to climb to the Top is to Crush You Down.
Where the only purpose in life is to DOMINATE ALL ELSE. My Boot, Your Face, Forever.
(And the Universe cannot have Two Centers.)
In that “Leeman and his ilk” live and move and have their being.
Would it be an accurate metaphor to call this kind of leadership “Demonic”?
“Diabolical”?
“Straight from the pit of Hell”?
(Christians descriptions like that around so much, they have lost their meaning. How then do they describe the real thing when it rears its head?)
The Great Chain of Being —
Boots stamping on faces, all the way down.
Even worse is the mindset of the entire YRR movement that doesn’t see a problem with this. He would have no voice without a willing audience.
The antidote to the Leeman/9 Marks article is this excellent, biblically well-founded article by Wade Burleson and Paul Burleson:
http://www.emmanuelarchive.org/Wade/The%20Bible%20and%20Authority%20in%20the%20ChurchFINAL.pdf
Headless Unicorn Guy,
You have an important point… The truly evil is making others think YOU are the true way to G$d…. as if you have the “secret” and the last 2,000 years of Christianity have got it wrong…
Amen! … with no distinctions by race, class, or gender! Whose job is the ministry? Every believer has a part!
Money makes the world go round’. Yeah, so it’s true in that sense. Coal, fuel oil bills, and electric bills all have to be paid or no churchy.
Nor do I begrudge the pastor a living wage for himself and his family.
The usual Christianese zinger for such a situation is “Strong Delusion, that they shall believe a lie.”
And these true ways usually don’t hang out together. Because there can be only ONE True Way.
And there’s one additional step beyond ” making others think YOU are the true way to G$d….”
Making others think You ARE God.
(And sometimes you don’t even need to make them; they’ll deify you all on their own. I’ve seen this happen politically, with my parents in 1992 regarding Ross Perot. They projected their needs and desires onto the man until they spoke of him as you would a god. The last time I visited them when they were both alive (summer of ’92), all they’d speak about was Ross Perot Will Save America, almost literally “Witnessing” to me. The whole situation made me VERY uncomfortable.)
True. But then it’s a compensation for service (no pun intended) and I guess since I haven’t subscribed I feel no attachment.
I don’t begrudge the sentiment per se but it’s a bit of a turn off. My wife’s always supported the church. Seems they only missed us when the giving slows down. It was a form letter so probably got sent out to the mailing list.
Sort of like Reader’s digest…
Anyway, it’ll interesting to see what sort of Christian trends emerge post covid
Genuine humility, prayer, and repentance would certainly be a great shift to see in the American church (in both pulpit and pew) … in addition to a purging of church as entertainment, celebrity preachers, aberrant theology, and cults of personality.
I’m hoping Christians will stop pretending they are above the law… laws of nature, and of the governments that are now trying to prevent mass death.
As a teen, I served as youth representative to a church planning committee staffed by quiet Christian men, engineers and other professionals. Among other things, we made sure the church gym was available to the community. This was our Christian duty. And yeah, our offerings paid the electric bill and janitorial costs for all those heathen basketball players.
We are not different from our neighbors. We owe it to them to blend the heck in, instead of constantly setting ourselves apart, crying persecution, yelling about how great we are, and demonizing others.
Friend,
“We are not different from our neighbors. We owe it to them to blend the heck in, instead of constantly setting ourselves apart, crying persecution, yelling about how great we are, and demonizing others.”
+++++++++++++++++
i think i’ll make an even bigger bumper sticker now.
I’m hoping that a multitude of church folks will stop pretending to be Christians, seek God, and genuinely come to Christ during this American tragedy.
Max, this does beg the question:
WHAT is “genuine humility”?
WHAT is “genuine prayer”?
WHAT is “genuine repentance”?
How do we know if we’re “genuine” enough?
By staying home and washing our hands.
The counterfeit knows they are not genuine … they know hypocrisy and pretense have been their character before God … they know.
Let us pray for the revival of the church!
Let us prepare our hearts for revival in our own lives!
birdoftheair,
Amen!
A few churches, including megas, held services yesterday, even though 90% of the US population is now under stay-at-home orders, and ignorance is no excuse.
I saw several interviews with people claiming that covid-19 will not touch them because they are covered by the blood of Jesus.
Nobody was forcing these Christians to talk to reporters, although some Christians did complain about “fake news.”
So it’s come to this. A few Christians are foolish enough to attend mass gatherings. People outside the faith (including many who left because of abuse) see this behavior as a predictable result of Christian beliefs.
We show as much disregard for human life as spring breakers. I say “we” because I’m a Christian too, and I am lumped in with Christians who imagine that Jesus has germproofed them against one particular virus.
Lord have mercy.
Friend,
“People outside the faith (including many who left because of abuse) see this behavior as a predictable result of Christian beliefs.”
+++++++++++++++++++++++
i see ‘christian beliefs’ as having very little to do with Jesus Christ.
if anything, they are Biblian Beliefs, which Biblians espouse, as they embrace Biblianity.
i see ‘Christian’ as based on a weird caricature of a hybrid of select men who feature in the bible and in ‘christian’ history. Jesus is only a technical mechanism.
it’s also a p0litical party.
truly, applying the word “christian” to myself is not accurate nor honest.
Were Christians during the 1918-1920 Spanish pandemic “germproofed”? (100 million died worldwide, including millions of Christians) … or polio during the 1940s-1950s which claimed thousands of lives … or the 1957-58 Asian Flu which killed 2 million worldwide … or the Hong Kong Flu in 1968-69 with 1 million dying … or 21st century epidemics of SARS, Swine Flu, Zika virus, or resurgence of measles and mumps?
“A prudent man seeth the plague, and hideth himself: but the foolish go on still, and are punished” (Prov 22:3 GNV)
“When it rains, it rains on the just and the unjust” (Matthew 5:45 INT)
“We must not tempt the Lord [that is, test His patience, question His purpose or exploit His goodness], as some of them did — and they were killed by serpents” (1 Cor 10:9 AMP)
Bottom line, Christian: Take heed to stay-at-home orders from government officials, avoid church gatherings, maintain social distancing when you are out and about, wear a face mask, use hand sanitizer, wash your hands / wash your hands / wash your hands. Survive this thing so you and your family can stay healthy and return to church post-Covid.
(Max 1:1 MAX)
🙂
Anon Girl,
Thank you very much, Anon Girl, I appreciate your prayers.
During the 1918 Spanish Flu pandemic, one town in Spain had the same idea. This being Spanish Catholic country, their bishop called a Novena against the pestilence — nine days of prayer and devotions and Masses, display and kissing of relics, the whole bells & smells.
That town had the highest death rate in all Spain.
“Fake News”…
I wonder where they got that term?
Where or Who?
AKA “Who needs that pesky Rabbi from Nazareth? We have SCRIPTURE(TM)! SCRIPTURE(TM)! SCRIPTURE(TM)!”
(Admit it. You’ve encountered that attitude. Live 30 years in an area where There Is No Salvation Outside of Calvary Chapel and you develop a pushback reflex.)
(Yes, I’ve lived in Calvary Chapel territory for decades
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/coronavirus-could-kill-consumer-christianity/
Another troubling article from TGC. Last paragraph was the real intent of the article.
Yes, the TGC bunch are always peddling their books! And the New Calvinists think they are not part of “consumer” Christianity?!! Heck, the movement would not exist if the elite weren’t selling books and holding conferences for all those YRR consumers out there! Do they think we are stupid? (the answer is yes)