Ford Ebling’s Experience of Abuse in the Youth Program at Living Hope Baptist Church (SBC) Was This Grooming Behavior?


Cosmic Winter Wonderland-NASA

Courage is found in unlikely places” JRR Tolkien


 

I am grateful that Ford Ebling was willing to come forward and discuss what happened to him as a high school student in the Living Hope Baptist Church youth program. Can you imagine how hard it is for a man to call a woman he doesn’t know and transparently share such awkward details? I am thankful that he could trust me.

In this story, you will hear an excuse given to Ford when he came first came forward as a teen with his concerns.”Boys will be boys.” I have only heard that sort of excuse one other time in a former church.  A young man came forward there to report a similar story about a youth volunteer. The excuse was “It”s just locker room humor.” A year later, the church would discover that over 13 young teen boys were being horrifically molested by their youth leader/volunteer. That man is in prison. That experience would directly lead to me starting this blog because I was astonished at the sheer stupidity and lack of concern on the part of the pastors and elders.

So, in this story, a young man knew something was amiss

Ford’s experience in the high school youth program at Living Hope Baptist Church, Bowling Green, KY. (As told in his own words.)

My mother, brother, and I started to attend Living Hope Baptist Church (SBC) more frequently after my parents separated. During this time,  my relationship with my mother and father was strained. My mother had become very religious and I tried to participate as well. This involved me attending the youth group at Living Hope Baptist Church. At first, things seemed pretty normal but the dynamics would change as we got older.

The teaching centered around learning to be a Christian man.

During that time, the teachings centered around helping teenage boys to become  Christian men. They were very concerned with teaching us how to conduct ourselves in accordance with the will of God. The central idea of being a man, for them, was for us to take on positions of leadership as we got older. We were taught that we need to, at the very least, be Christian leaders within our own future families.

A Godly man, we were taught, is one who marries only one woman in his life, is faithful to her, and produces children to carry on the faith. He should carry no sexual impurity into the marriage. We were discouraged from any expression of sexuality, healthy or unhealthy. Some leaders even went so far as to tell us that having any sexual thoughts was akin to “Raping a woman in your mind.” They told us that men who were sexually pure and acted in accordance with God were the elite among all others.

Those who followed God were the chosen who would be accepted into Heaven, and all others would be sent to Hell. Homosexuality was strongly condemned. Even associating with gay people for any reason, except preaching to them, was strongly discouraged. Men and women have specific roles in the kingdom of God and those who engaged in other sorts of behavior were not chosen to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

The combination of elitism, complementarianism, skewed Calvinism, and purity culture all contributed to a culture where one had to prove their worthiness to be counted among the Christian elite, and only the greatest Christian disciples attended Living Hope Baptist Church.

Boys will be boys excuses for genital grabbing and nudity.

The more I was involved, the more I was subjected to this frat like hazing. A lot of this hazing involved inappropriate touching perpetrated by other boys in the group. My genitals and buttocks were repeatedly groped by several male members of the youth group. One student, even when he wasn’t touching me, often made a point to make me uncomfortable by threatening to touch me, making suggestive comments, and joking about my manhood.

This hazing was was done under the guise of male bonding. The phrase “no homo” was thrown around a lot. They seemed to believe that men should be comfortable being naked around each other and touching each other, perhaps to prove in some way that men can be close without “succumbing to homosexual urges.” Most of this behavior was at least tacitly approved by the youth group leadership. When I told one of the leaders (I don’t remember who it was,)  he dismissed my concerns that I was feeling very uncomfortable with some of the other boys’ actions. I was given what amounted to a “boys will be boys” excuse, and nothing stopped.

(Warning: graphic/trigger alert for the next three paragraphs)

Over time the behavior escalated. While at a summer camp called Centrifuge in Florida, I witnessed an older boy, DR, crawl naked into the bed of a younger boy and wouldn’t leave until the younger one looked at his penis. At that same camp, an adult counselor, Bryan Lewis, pulled down his pants and had several minors (including myself) look at how hairy his anus was. Lewis apparently knew that he was crossing a line with this because he discouraged us from mentioning to others that he was doing this before pulling down his pants.

Other questionable things occurred at various church camps and among other members of the youth group. One thing that often happened at camps was what some boys called “Happy Get Naked Time,” which is when several boys would get partially or fully naked and dance together. Boys were encouraged to participate this/ If we didn’t participate, they made fun of us or otherwise excluded us from the inner circle.

Boundaries were violated.

Another group of older boys had their own little inner circle group, whose initiation into the group involved getting naked in front of the group and rubbing Icy Hot on one’s genitals in order to see how long you could last. While I’m unsure if any direct molestation occurred within the church, the culture within the church youth group opened the way for predators to target young boys. The boundaries of young boys were repeatedly violated while I attended that church, and that behavior prepared boys for being assaulted and led to them being possibly being shamed into not reporting their assaults.

Leadership of the church appeared ignorant of this behavior

Living Hope leadership, it appears, is completely ignorant of this behavior, which is completely unsurprising, considering the elitist culture within Living Hope as a whole. The pastors at Living Hope refer to their congregants as “living saints,” and appear to believe(at least to me) that they are the sole saviors of the city of Bowling Green, KY. Though they may not state it outright, they believe something like this could not happen at Living Hope. But it has happened already, and will likely happen again if they don’t work to fix the flaws in their church.

Bryan Lewis is a member of Mission Church in Bowling Green, Ky, and is also the executive director of Hope House, a home for recovering addicts in Bowling Green, which is concerning as that is a building full of vulnerable people who are beholden to Hope House for shelter and help recovering from their addictions.

There were two teens boys that were also involved in abusive, sexualized behavior. One now lives in a foreign country and the other one has moved out of the area.

I’m writing all of this to draw attention to harmful practices that are pervasive across the wider Southern Baptist Convention, and to help other people have the courage to come forward about their abuse. No one should have to go through what I went through, and all I can do is try to get my story out there in the hopes that it helps someone to survive what I went through.


My phone call to Living Hope Baptist Church

After my initial contact with Ford,  I called Living Hope Baptist Church in Bowling Green Baptist Church. Jason Pettus, along with a couple of his elders, set up a time to connect with me. With Ford’s permission, I gave them an overview of Ford’s story. However, at that time, I felt I was missing a piece of the puzzle from the story and I warned the pastor and elders to be prepared that there could be something more. Sometimes, as trust is developed, a victim becomes willing to share more.

They three men were thoughtful and expressed concern for Ford. They all said they were not aware of such reports. However, they mentioned the Caring Well materials and said they wanted to respond well to this situation. The told me that Bryan Lewis was no longer at the church and was working with a ministry in town called Hope House.

They asked if Ford would be willing to meet with them. Ford had already told me he wanted to sit down with them and talk about what happened. He would contact them about setting up a time.

The phone call with me was handled well by the leaders. However, at the time of the call, I was unaware that a crime may have been committed.

Time to make a police report

After speaking , once again, at length with Ford, I learned that Bryan Lewis had allegedly exposed himself to the teens as covered by in Ford’s narrative. Both Ford and I agreed that this was a crime. Even though we knew the statute of limitations had expired, he felt, and I agreed, that it was important to report this. I was once again impressed by Ford’s hope that his experience would help protect others. Here is a copy of the police report with some names redacted. Ford’s first name is Stuart and Ford is his middle name which he more commonly goes by.

Ford’s meeting with church elders

Ford met with the elders (the pastor was on a mission trip.) They apologized to him and reiterated that they had never heard of such reports. They offered to provide counseling for him in a biblical counseling center. Ford now considers himself a *hopeful agnostic* and did not feel comfortable taking them up on their offer. His is aware of some of the controversies surrounding this type of counseling. I have written extensively on the matter. Here is a link to a post which has links to many of the posts that I’ve written.

Ford said that is was important for him to come forward to the church in order to protect others who may have had similar experiences.

One of the elders reportedly said that it is impossible to prevent people from *doing what they’re going to do.*  Another elder said it was hard to trust Ford since they didn’t know him. (IDee:  will deal with these comments shortly.) Ford told me that he believes that the conversation, while considerate  were primarily platitudes.

I am personally pleased that the leaders went out of their way to make sure the meetings happened in an expeditious manner.

Bryan Lewis

I left a message for Lewis with his PR person. I briefly explained the situation to her. I did not receive a clue back from him which does not surprise me.

Ford naturally spotted the red flags surrounding potential grooming behavior

Ford is a thoughtful man who gets the issues surrounding grooming. It took him a few years to understand the problems with the behaviors in the youth group.

We agreed that *getting naked* or grabbing another’s genitals in youth group meetings  or Christian camps is worrisome behavior, especially when condoned by the church appointed youth leaders. Here is one article that addresses grooming behavior: 6 PERPETRATOR GROOMING BEHAVIORS EVERY PARENT NEEDS TO KNOW:

Testing Boundaries
Perpetrators will try to test the boundaries of your child’s comfort levels. Sometimes they will tell off-colored or sexualized jokes to see how the child will respond. They may try to play sexualized games such as pants-ing, truth-or-dare, or strip games.

They will see how the child reacts when they enter a child’s room or normal places where children are expected to have privacy, such as the restroom.

Perpetrators thrive in secrecy, and testing boundaries helps them know if they can continue without being caught.

Touching
Perpetrators will test the boundaries of touch with your child. They usually begin with non-sexual touches such as high-fives and hugging. They may slowly progress to inappropriate touching such as accidentally grazing a private part of the body, just to see how the child will react. They may kiss or have the child sit on their lap.

The thing to note is they will move from very innocent touching and progress to more sexual touching in order to test the reaction of the child.

Another article brings up some behavior seen in Ford’s story: THE RED FLAGS OF GROOMING BEHAVIOR

Gradually crossing physical boundaries. Full frontal hugs that last too long, making kids sit in their laps, “accidental” touches of private areas – all of these are causes for concern. In some cases, offenders have engaged in partially clothed tickle sessions, showered with kids, or slept in the same bed with them.

Encouraging a kid to keep secrets from family members. The shame and fear associated with child sexual abuse make it easy for offenders to enforce secrecy in this area as well, keeping abuse “just between us.”

So, if an institution or church’ leadership easily spouts sayings such  *boys will be boys,* when confronted by a young person reporting worrisome behavior, they are unwittingly helping a potential predator. Ford had normal and age appropriate inhibitions. It is normal for a teen boy to be unhappy that others are squeezing his genitals or insisting that that he should join in nude dancing. Ford was appropriately startled when the youth leader allegedly dropped his pants and encouraged the boys to look at his *hairy anus.*

Ford was smarter than the adults in the room. He realized that something was wrong. The youth leader was reportedly encouraging and engaging in behavior that could be seen as an attempt to lower natural inhibitions.  Yet, there didn’t appear to be anyone in leadership who understood the ramifications of such. behavior. This in itself is disturbing.

In my former church, similar behavior was encouraged by a youth leader. This included encouraging boys to drop their pants in front of other students along with the leader who  was exposing himself to the boys. Yet the pastors laughed it off as normal behavior until, one year later, that youth leaderswas arrested for molesting many young teen boys in the church.

I’m going to ask a hard question. is there any possibility that a boy in the church was molested at any point? I think it would be advisable for the church leadership to consider this possibility and have a third party come into the church to review their procedures. I would suggest GRACE. At the minimum, it would educate the church leadership and members on how to spot and how to respond to grooming behavior.

Elders comments

Although the elders engaged Ford, one reportedly said that he couldn’t trust Ford since he didn’t know him. They need to read my blog a bit more often. First of all, no one really knows anyone unless they are with them 24/7. Even then, people can be fooled. For example, Jerry Sandusky was engaged in molesting boys in locker rooms and at his home which should cause anyone to stop using the excuse of typical locker room behavior. His own wife denied he was molesting boys in their home. She said she would know… except, she didn’t. Its called cognitive dissonance. We have a hard time accepting that we can be fooled. We all like to think we are smarter than the *bad guys.* And the bad guys love our stupid assumptions.

Predators are smart. Sometimes they are smarter than we are. That’s how they successfully engage in their dark behavior. I’m smart enough to know that I could be had by a predator. Today, at Living Hope Baptist Church, there are probably a few unidentified predators lurking in the halls. Predators go where there are trusting adults and lots of kids.And background checks are only effective for the 10% or so who have been caught and convicted.

I challenge the elders at Living Hope Baptist Church to rethink their paradigm. They definitely need to educate themselves because, if they don’t, the youth in their church program are at risk.

Let me throw out one more problem with “We don’t know you so we can’t really trust you” statement. I challenge the elders to find out how many people who come forward with abuse claims are actually lying. Think about it. How many of you would want to call a woman you don’t know to tell your story about a youth leader exposing his private parts? How many of you would like to come into a group of men that you don’t know to describe these actions on the part of their former youth leader? How many of you actually have the guts to do something like Ford did?

Lying in these circumstances is found to be incredibly rare. For example here is one statistic.

98% of child sexual assault reports by children are found to be true.

What is really sad is the number of churches which will ignore such reports when it involves one of their members. Living Hope elders…do you really. believe that someone would come up with a story like this?  Please read the Craing Well materials. You will find similar statistics there.

Once again, Ford told me he came forward in order to warn other potential victims as well as to alert the church to possible issues. I believe him. I am also grateful that he saw the problem and attempted to deal with it as a teen. It is my hope that the church will hire an organization that can do more training for the in this area,

I’ve been been writing for 10 1/2 years and I believe Ford’s story and I stand with him coming forward. I also believe that others may come forward after this story is posted. Ford, I am so sorry for what you had to endure at a church as a teen. Thank you for your willingness to come forward to help others. I know it wasn’t easy.

Comments

Ford Ebling’s Experience of Abuse in the Youth Program at Living Hope Baptist Church (SBC) Was This Grooming Behavior? — 52 Comments

  1. “Both Ford and I agreed that this was a crime. Even though we knew the statute of limitations had expired, he felt, and I agreed, that it was important to report this.”

    Yes, yes, yes- these things need to be reported even if they are outside of present day statute of limitations. It could prove very helpful to someone in the future who reports their case.

    Also, with various states changing and potentially changing the laws, there could be a time where the statute of limitations change or the time extended to file a civil lawsuit.

  2. This sort of behavior is so inappropriate. I would not want to be anywhere near it.

    I am glad Ford came forward, made a police report, and met with the elders.

    I agree with you. Get ready for a few shoes to drop. More may come out.

  3. I wonder how many of the boys who participated in this program went on to be molesters themselves? This kind of behavior doesn’t just groom victims; it also grooms future predators.

  4. Ford Ebling is very brave to come forward. I am thankful that he is shedding light on this problem.

    Here are some general comments. It is important to know the ages of the children and of the adult predator(s). Sadly, it is not unheard of for groups of a few young adolescent boys to run around naked and even to grope.

    The adults’ job is to minimize opportunities for bad or criminal behavior. One element: at random times, an adult should walk through the locker room and showers, briefly stop by the boys’ cabin at camp, etc. They should never ignore or deny bad behavior, and they certainly should not participate!

    The adults also need to teach the boys right and wrong, and model and discuss healthy bonding. Chances are that some kids look more comfortable with nude hazing than they actually are. If a kid comes forward to report sexualized misbehavior—even after participating—that kid needs and deserves compassion. It will take skill to figure out which predatory adult(s) and kid(s) started an activity, and which kids were drawn in later.

    One refrain, in cases I have known about, is this: “Yes, he participated, but look at how many kids did not. He made a choice.” This mentality ignores the grooming process, which often targets and isolates certain kids, but not entire groups of dozens or hundreds of kids.

  5. “the pastors laughed it off as normal behavior ”

    I am really disturbed at anyone who would think this stuff is normal behavior? It all sounds pretty indefensible and should send up red flags immediately to normal people.

    Which makes you, as always, wonder about leadership in these situations and what they consider to be normal.

  6. Lea,

    When I was working as a missionary in South America, people always wanted to know where my children were-church people. I would politely reply that I was single, and they would look at me funny. Despite Scriptural guidance on sex between husbands and wives only, it was just assumed that all women needed to have children, and it was a tragedy if you didn’t.

  7. To answer the question, no I don’t have the guts. Thank you, Ford.

    Even the basic MinistrySafe training includes scenarios with adolescent boys and a male leader. For example, he “accidentally” loses his towel after a shower. If you’re not even following that…

    This reminds me of how Robert Downen pointed out once on Twitter that the SBC’s response actions barely mention boys.

    The free biblical counseling offer hackles my suspicions that it’s a test to see if a victim is still the right kind of Christian.

  8. “A Godly man, we were taught, is one who marries only one woman in his life, is faithful to her, and produces children to carry on the faith. He should carry no sexual impurity into the marriage. We were discouraged from any expression of sexuality, healthy or unhealthy. Some leaders even went so far as to tell us that having any sexual thoughts was akin to “Raping a woman in your mind.” They told us that men who were sexually pure and acted in accordance with God were the elite among all others.

    Those who followed God were the chosen who would be accepted into Heaven, and all others would be sent to Hell. Homosexuality was strongly condemned. Even associating with gay people for any reason, except preaching to them, was strongly discouraged.

    The combination of elitism, complementarianism, skewed Calvinism, and purity culture all contributed to a culture where one had to prove their worthiness to be counted among the Christian elite, and only the greatest Christian disciples attended Living Hope Baptist Church
    ++++++++++++++++++++++

    this is horrible.

    let’s look at the take-aways:

    you are at risk of hell if

    –you notice that your female peers are attractive

    –have any fleeting thought that goes beyond friendship with a female peer

    –if you thought about wanting to hold a girl’s hand

    –if you held a girl’s hand

    –if you thought about kissing a girl

    –if you kissed a girl

    –have any fleeting thought of same sex attraction

    –say hello to someone who is gay

    –are not 100% sexually perfect in every way up until your wedding night

    –your future marriage does not work out.

    –you do not have several children. 2 might not cut it. 3? who knows.

    –you do not abide by what the pastors at Living Hope Baptist Church tell you to do

    –you do not go to Living Hope Baptist Church
    ———————–

    let’s look at some other take-aways:

    –if ever you notice a female peer’s attractiveness, even for a fleeting second, you are guilty of having raped her

    –if the marriage does not work out, it is your (the man’s) fault.

    –your salvation is contingent on being able to have children. if you are unable to have children, you are obligated to adopt multiple children.

    –you will never know if you’ve had enough children to qualify as a legitimate man, a legitimate christian, and to keep God happy
    ———————–

    a few more take-aways:

    if you don’t measure up 100% to all of these things

    –you are a poor excuse for man. in fact, you are not a real man

    –God is deeply disappointed in you. in fact, it’s a foregone conclusion that God despises you for it.

    –we, your faith community at Living Hope Baptist Church, will look down on you. you are not worthy of being part of our elite members only club. but we may tolerate you, smile at you, and allow you to be in our presence.
    ———————–

    a final take-away:

    with all these fear tactics deeply drilled into people, along with how they position themselves as God’s elite, “Living Hope” takes on a new dimension.

    –your salvation and eternal destiny is entwined with your involvement at “Living Hope Baptist Church”.

    –Living Hope Baptist Church is your only hope

  9. Part 2: (if i haven’t worn you out already)

    They will say, “We NEVER said or advocated any of these things!”

    They are the subtext. The inferences.

    Your teaching are so loaded people can’t help but draw conclusions in their minds, perhaps unspoken even to themselves. but the fears have been ingrained into their belief system.

    Everything i mentioned above are the take-aways that conclusions, which people take with them. which attach themselves onto their beliefs like an unwanted, uninvited parasite, sucking life out of them. sucking the modicum of joy and peace that could have been theirs.

  10. and all of these things give you power over people, Living Hope Baptist leaders. job security.

  11. elastigirl: all of these things give you power over people

    Maybe they remember the phrase “and all these things shall be added unto you,” but forgot to look at context.

  12. Lea: “the pastors laughed it off as normal behavior ”
    I am really disturbed at anyone who would think this stuff is normal behavior?

    Maybe to PASTORS?
    “Ours is a High and Lonely Destiny, Digory.”

  13. Linn: it was just assumed that all women needed to have children

    I’ve run into awkwardness from people when they find out i don’t have children – someone on a dating ap asked if it was ok that he did. (Some people don’t like children at all, so I kind of get it, but I like kids so nbd.)

    I think the worst are usually mom’s who then get stuck like they have nothing to talk about when they find out I don’t have kids. It’s weird.

  14. Stan: This reminds me of how Robert Downen pointed out once on Twitter that the SBC’s response actions barely mention boys.

    If you are rolling with this idea that boys and girls need to be separated, because men need to learn from other men yada yada yada…you’re going to need to be aware that there are men who abuse boys and that it’s kind of important to keep a look out for that.

    Separating sexes does not fix all sexual predation. I agree this is a huge gap.

  15. elastigirl: –have any fleeting thought of same sex attraction

    This feels like something that would aid a same sex predator – the kids who are understandably confused are afraid potentially to report, and if they are gay even more so.

  16. The early mention of infernalism in this post jumped out at me — it’s an effective method by which many churches keep people in line.

    “Follow Jesus our way or go to hell” IMO in practice will cover a multitude of sins committed by those who are demanding to be followed.

    Likewise, the “what does it profit a man saying” — on this view of consequences, being abused by your leaders is a much less “big deal” than being thrown into gehenna, and people should be grateful for the gospel ministry that they received from the leaders even if it was accompanied by terrible “under the sun” abuses.

    I suspect that this sort of thing will continue in the traditional churches until prevailing opinion changes in such a way that these traditional threats lose their power. Maybe it is possible to impose constraints on pastoral misconduct within the current way of being church and the current ways of conceptualizing the meaning of ‘the gospel’. I’m not optimistic.

  17. elastigirl,

    The only thing I would add to this long list of “concerns” being raised is a relatively simple observation I have made before here on TWW..
    —- the more a church/sect claims they have the “true way”, and the more they focus on particular “ sin/sins” and the more you refrain from them, the more “holly” you are, look out… there is probably some sort of perversion/extreme of that sin being practiced…

    And no, this is not “ boys being boys”….. that place is really messed up… either leadership is covering it up, or thet are Really, Really clueless… nether of which is a good alterative….

  18. The purity culture defines normal and healthy impulses as sin and sets up ridiculous expectations and fears about them. This forces a person into a continual battle with their own humanity, which they can never win. It seems obvious to me that would lead to an obsession with the impulses rather than freedom from them, in other words, the exact opposite behavior that they are supposedly trying to encourage, and also completely unnecessary feelings of shame, guilt and failure.

    Add to it these weird acting-out behaviors and you have a great situation for pure crazy making.

    Ah, but they are the elite, the only ones who really get life right, God’s favorites… It would be funny if it wasn’t so sad for the poor kids trying to make sense out of themselves and the world around them, growing up in this environment.

  19. Samuel Conner: The early mention of infernalism in this post jumped out at me — it’s an effective method by which many churches keep people in line.

    It’s amazing what a huge part of church the concept of hell is, when the Bible has so little to say on the subject, and many scholars don’t even think the Bible teaches it at all; the great majority of what is taught in the church about hell comes not from the Bible but from pagan religion. Edward Fudge has some excellent studies on this, including some in-depth videos on youtube.

    …but it is so useful in manipulating people.

  20. SiteSeer,
    I wonder how many preachers would stand in their pulpit going “Bwah… Bwah… Bwah… Bwah… Bwah…” if they couldn’t preach Eternal Hell?

    “You can tell when a preacher’s in trouble when he stops preaching what he’s for and only preaches what he’s Against.”

  21. SiteSeer: Ah, but they are the elite, the only ones who really get life right, God’s favorites…

    GOD’S. SPESHUL. PETS.

  22. This all just makes me very, very sad. I am so sorry, Ford, that you and so many others had these experiences.

  23. We need to be careful. Most abused children do not become abusers. I have heard that is it only 1 out of 8. On top of being abused, we don’t need to add to that that they are now suspect themselves.

  24. Jeff Allen,

    I do agree with you on that, Jeff, the same way I would agree that someone harmed by firearms won’t go off an shoot someone one day. But I do agree with the above comment that this environment can potentially groom future abusers in so far as the SBC’s incredibly unhealthy attitudes about sex and sexuality can lead to very skewed ideas in the minds of both people who have and haven’t been abused. And at least it my case, if you don’t get the support you need after going through this kind of thing, you can develop really complicated issues with sex. In the environment I spoke about, most of those guys don’t believe they even did anything wrong. And if you never un-learn unhealthy attitudes towards sex it can really mess you up.

    Some victims of pedophilia have grown up to be pedophiles, but they likely didn’t receive the support they needed to realize how wrong what they went through actually was, and they spent so much time being told by their abusers that nothing wrong was being done to them. They were groomed to become what they did, and this is very much a possible scenario in an environment like Living Hope’s where there’s little consequence for inappropriate behavior, and where the behavior is indeed trivialized. The statistics of women who become abusers is much, much smaller because women often receive support and validation that what happened to them was wrong. Men don’t often get that same support for a plethora of patriarchal reasons. Hell, it took me 10 years to even acknowledge how messed up that situation was, and five more to seriously call it abuse.

    It’s a really complicated issue, and I think it requires a specific set of conditions to cause an abused person to become an abuser, but it’s not something that can just be dismissed outright.

  25. Of course this type of behavior can happen in any church. But it seems that in the Protestant realm, the Calvinist-leaning ones seem to have more reports of these instances than the non-Calvinist ones. (I guess they were “predestined” to do what they did?)

  26. Mark R: Of course this type of behavior can happen in any church. But it seems that in the Protestant realm, the Calvinist-leaning ones seem to have more reports of these instances than the non-Calvinist ones. (I guess they were “predestined” to do what they did?)

    It’s the grace-grace-grace message of New Calvinism gone amiss … cheap grace.

  27. elastigirl: and all of these things give you power over people, Living Hope Baptist leaders. job security.

    Wow, those are some insightful comments. Exactly what the christian industrial complex is all about. I know that sounds so terribly offensive to those whose lives revolve around their church – my whole family. They simply cannot see how, on the whole, even though their are certainly well meaning people within, the institution serves man more than God.

  28. Lea: This feels like something that would aid a same sex predator – the kids who are understandably confused are afraid potentially to report, and if they are gay even more so.

    It sounds frighteningly close to a deliberate attempt to create gender confusion and same sex attraction. Take a bunch of young guys with sky-high testosterone and put them in repeated situations of being potentially sexually aroused by other guys. Their natural physiological response to stimulation could present them with guilt and confusion.

  29. Samuel Conner: The early mention of infernalism in this post jumped out at me — it’s an effective method by which many churches keep people in line.

    When I first heard this concept many years ago from a very dear, more liberal than I friend, it struck me as absurd, almost blasphemous. After many, many years, and my personal experience within a spiritually abusive, controlling church, I believe it to be entirely true.

    I am happy to be free of the hideous belief in infernalism, and from the manipulative tactics of the institutional church. Such thoughts send my well-meaning church-going family and friends to their knees for my obviously lost soul, but my love for God and others has grown proportionally to my distaste for the institutional church.

    When you strip away the cruel, controlling, ugly characteristics of God painted by much of orthodox christianity you arrive at a gracious, loving, merciful God who deeply desires your best interests. It’s a pretty good trade off. I think of it as elastigirl christianity.

  30. MarkR: But it seems that in the Protestant realm, the Calvinist-leaning ones seem to have more reports of these instances than the non-Calvinist ones. (I guess they were “predestined” to do what they did?)

    I have seen zero data on this one way or the other so this is probably a perception issue. Paige Patterson wasn’t a calvinist but was equally problematic. My absolute best experience as a woman in Christianity has been within a Calvinist denomination.

    I think if you focus too much on one aspect of this you are going to miss things. Like Patriarchy. Complementarianism. Hierarchy. None of this is confined to calvinism.

  31. Headless Unicorn Guy: I wonder how many preachers would stand in their pulpit going “Bwah… Bwah… Bwah… Bwah… Bwah…” if they couldn’t preach Eternal Hell?

    It’s an essential part of selling TheGospel™. Create a [imaginary] need, and offer an [imaginary] answer to it.

  32. Friend,

    “Maybe they remember the phrase “and all these things shall be added unto you,” but forgot to look at context.”
    ++++++++++++++

    becoming aware of the concentric circles of context takes too much work. but i reckon there’s an awareness handicap to begin with.

    it’s like helping out in preschool, dealing with adults in christian churchland (generally speaking). especially the real franchise-y ones, like Living Hope Baptist Church appears to be. The PF Chang’s and Cheesecake Factory’s of christian culture. pre-fab everything for a profit.

  33. Nick Bulbeck: Create a [imaginary] need, and offer an [imaginary] answer to it.

    Or: identify an imaginary problem (visible female elbows!) and build a whole community devoted to eradicating it.

  34. Lea,

    -you are at risk of hell if you have any fleeting thought of same sex attraction

    Lea: “This feels like something that would aid a same sex predator – the kids who are understandably confused are afraid potentially to report, and if they are gay even more so.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++

    the paranoia generated at places like Living Hope Baptist Church causes people to shut down, to keep quiet. indeed, the field is white unto sexual predator harvest.

    i think it’s possible to have a case of paranoia but not even realize it. it might not even manifest itself when at a church function (even though that is the source), but in other ways (general anxiety, depression, etc). afterall, there’s a fix people get at church, so it feels good all the while it is feeding the paranoia.

  35. TS00,

    “bunch of young guys with sky-high testosterone and put them in repeated situations of being potentially sexually aroused by other guys. Their natural physiological response to stimulation could present them with guilt and confusion.”
    ++++++++++++++++

    really, if even a fleeting thought about a girl beyond friendship is akin to ‘rape’ and perhaps consigns you to hell for eternity, what are hormone-rich teen-age boys supposed to do with it all?

    so they joke around with each other’s bodies as an outlet. and the leaders foster this and push it further. i suspect for their own gratification in some way.

    so, yes arousal. but again, they’ve already made it clear that that kind of arousal sends you straight to the fires of hell, no wondering on that one (according to the import of what they teach).

    what insane, life-wrecking confusion. i feel so sorry for the boys in that youth group.

  36. Went to the church’s website and watched their “I’m New” video, which the pastor ends with a joke about not coming to church naked. His lame joke sounds much darker after reading what’s been happening in their youth group. I guess the clothing optional approach is only encouraged at camps and not during the Sunday morning “experience”.

  37. Max: It’s the grace-grace-grace message of New Calvinism gone amiss … cheap grace.

    “Grace” in the name of a church or theology should be approached with the same caution as “People’s Democratic” in the formal name of a Third World country.

  38. Dee…. you should start a podcast and interview some SBC members or Calvinists/Complimentarians who agree that these issues need to be exposed…. but happen to be from the other side of the fence. There are a lot of us out there that are on your side, but we do get mis-characterized in the comments here. Trust me, there is more that brings us together than separates us. In my way of thinking, you are using your influence to do a great work. If the doctrinal divide was not as pronounced, your influence would reach more people in these “stubborn” sects of Christianity. I am not suggesting you owe us anything, it is just an idea of how to reach more people like me and our churches. Keep up the good work. I enjoy the site and even the comments.

  39. elastigirl: what insane, life-wrecking confusion. i feel so sorry for the boys in that youth group.

    What a set of messages: be modest, wait till marriage, don’t be gay, run around naked at youth group.

  40. George: There are a lot of us out there that are on your side, but we do get mis-characterized in the comments here.

    I’m curious how you come up in the comments and how you feel you are mischaracterized? Would you want to explain a little more? I’d like to understand.

  41. EricL: Went to the church’s website and watched their “I’m New” video, which the pastor ends with a joke about not coming to church naked.

    There’s a philosophy that people tend to leak items of interest in their conversation. Makes you wonder!

  42. George,

    “…a podcast and interview some SBC members or Calvinists/Complimentarians who agree that these issues need to be exposed…. but happen to be from the other side of the fence. There are a lot of us out there that are on your side, but we do get mis-characterized in the comments here. Trust me, there is more that brings us together than separates us.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++

    i really appreciated your comment, George. truly, i did.

    yes, we agree on much more than we disagree on. a forum to bring more of us together sounds really neat.
    ————-

    (on another matter:

    you mention ‘the other side of the [doctrinal] fence’.

    doctrines have consequences for people. but only for some people, in many cases. [not those who penned the doctrine.]

    if speaking out against cruelty as an unintended consequence of doctrine is a matter of conscience, then one should keep speaking. and speak loudly.

    if someone embraces such a doctrine, my view is that it is incumbent on them do so understanding that cruelty is not conceptual but experientially painful. sometimes severely so, and to the destroying point, to those impacted by the doctrine.

    My view is that it is right/appropriate that those someones who embrace these kinds of doctrines own the fact that what they are advocating brings pain on many levels to others. while they themselves are likely to be benefiting from the doctrine in some way.

    and to own this fact…

    –not dispute it, not ignore it, not pretend it isn’t happening. including as a matter of faith.

    –to be wary of putting faith in doctrines.

    my view is that such a someone should understand that cruelty is worthy of a strong pushback, and to accept it, rather than complain about it.

    pain from cruelty-on-principle, especially when framed as ordained by God, is deeply personal. Especially when the advocates for such a doctrine are not the ones impacted by its tenets & import. the push-back will thus be personal. take the push-back, with some grace.

    finally, my view is that the meaning of ‘cruel’ is best defined by those at ground zero who experience what it is at the receiving end of such doctrines, not by those who are not impacted by it.)
    .
    .
    if this were more succinct, perhaps it could be the Doctrine of Personal-Responsibility-When-Adopting-A-Doctrine.

  43. elastigirl: if this were more succinct, perhaps it could be the Doctrine of Personal-Responsibility-When-Adopting-A-Doctrine.

    Your entire comment called to mind this recent item:

    https://aeon.co/ideas/believing-without-evidence-is-always-morally-wrong

    I think this argument is sound. One of the implications, I think, is that we should be open to the possibility that our convictions might be flawed — IOW that one’s commitment to “undertsanding and living in light of what is true” ought to be stronger than one’s commitment to one’s current understanding of what is true.

    Given the inescapable limitations of our finite material embodiment, there should be a provisional character to one’s “doctrine”.

    This isn’t to doubt God or the Scriptures themselves, but to doubt oneself, which — within limits — is, I think, a very wholesome kind of doubt.

    The term “semper reformanda” comes to mind, and in its original sense I think it was pretty close to this view. In practice, the movement eventually satisfied itself that it had an adequate grasp of the Scriptures and settled itself in that confidence.

  44. Samuel Conner,

    “one’s commitment to “understanding and living in light of what is true” ought to be stronger than one’s commitment to one’s current understanding of what is true.

    Given the inescapable limitations of our finite material embodiment, there should be a provisional character to one’s “doctrine”.

    This isn’t to doubt God or the Scriptures themselves, but to doubt oneself, which — within limits — is, I think, a very wholesome kind of doubt”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++

    thank you, Samuel. What a thoughtful article that was.

    i copied it and put it in my ‘digital scrapbook’ (a word doc with a collection of blog comments, articles, and my own thoughts — in an effort to sort through what is true, what i believe, what i don’t believe.

    yes, this article is very relevant to that.

    it really does articulate the basis of my quest — the items which i believe have consequences for others.

    (i say ‘items’ not conclusions, because many times we don’t think things through enough to conclude anything at all. we simply adopt what person of influence tells to believe. everyone else in our community is doing it, so it must be right.

    this is church culture in my experience. and where the concept of God is involved, the stakes are so much higher. the consequences to others so much more serious. unconscionable atrocities are done to other human beings ‘on faith’ because of God.)
    ——————

    getting back to what i believe having consequences for others:

    i see it every day in being a parent.

    there have been some parenting moments that i regret because they were essentially cruelty-on-principle [no physical harm]. i’ve had to re-evaluate. i can’t think of anything more important for me personally.

    i’ve tried to be circumspect and anticipate the different paths my kids choose in life, and what would be the best way to respond.

    if my daughter gets pregnant, how will i respond to the precious new little human being?

    I know of christian parents who have a very chilled relationship with their precious grandchild because their daughter was not married. they seem to be ashamed of the grandchild.

    when they are together at an event with other christians, it’s like they feel obligated to relate to the grandchild in an extra aloof manner, as a way of apologizing to their christian peers for their daughter’s egregious choices. and as a way of assuring themselves and their peers that “we were GOOD parents! this was HER choice.”

    it’s like they owe more to their christian community than they do their own daughter and grandchild.

    it makes me sick. what a waste. cruelty-on-principle in action. towards one family! towards one’s grandchild!
    ———————

    if my son or daughter is gay or lesbian, how will i respond to their love relationship? (which is just as apt to be based on faithful commitment to each other as any love relationship)

    i know of christian parents whose son is gay and daughter is lesbian. if they haven’t functionally disowned their son or daughter, there is very little of a warm & nurturing love relationship between them. they don’t recognize their son/daughter’s chosen partner. the partner is invisible to them. as if not even human.

    it makes me sick. what a waste. cruelty-on-principle. towards one’s own child. towards a human being.

    it won’t be me.

    i want to be continually evaluating and re-evaluating.

  45. Ugh! This is truly stomach churning!!!!

    My only advice: parents, either teach your child or teen at home and then attend worship service together, or take the child or teen with you to your Bible class, or volunteer and help in your child’s class (obviously with multiple children this choice may not be possible.)

    We pew peons can stop this madness simply by NOT EVER allowing our kids on the church grounds or at church activities without being present ourselves. We can stop wanting them shuttled off out of our hair to separate from us classes, children’s church, youth group, and summer camp. We can step up to the plate and actually raise the kiddoes ourselves.

    Right now, in today’s environment, it is the only sane thing to do imho. Harder work for parents, sure, and some parental “felt needs” may not be met, but so much safer for the children.

  46. Nick Bulbeck: It’s an essential part of selling TheGospel™. Create a [imaginary] need, and offer an [imaginary] answer to it.

    “Here a verse, there a verse, everywhere a verse verse, old MacDonald had a farm…”