Second?

I don’t usually comment on church names, but somebody should have watermarked ‘Watermark Church’ with DRAFT and changed it before printing out the signs because it is the worst.

Also this church sounds exhausting.

Yet another example of “JUST LIKE SCIENTOLOGY, EXCEPT CHRISTIAN(TM)!”

HUG,

I love the person talking about not having anything exciting to share, because they just go to work, do whatever, go home, etc. Rinse and repeat. I know i have ‘seasons’ where I would have nothing exciting to say ha!

(nobody at church makes me share anything thank goodness, although I’ve had one on one talks with people…)

Susan’s answers to questions number three and four, combined with Watermarks’ view of obedience and community remind me of Nazi Germany’s Gestapo and party organization. Being a self taught student on that regime, the paramilitary set up of the Nazi Party, the group leader was responsible for so many members, and a couple small groups came under a leader, and on up. Both the Party and the Gestapo collated information coming from the bottom up. The Gestapo actually kept index cards on people just from people ratting each other out trying to save their own skin.

Sounds like a Medieval Monastery.

“Men and women were designed to come together, not be friends (that is quite literally from a message by Jonathan JP Pokluda who was the executive pastor of the Dallas campus and heads The Porch for the young singles.”
This is so crazy. Singles need to have coed Bible studies and small groups together. I am pretty sure that JP guy has some personal issues. He sounds like Billy Crystal’s character in Harry Met Sally who said men and women can’t be friends because they are always thinking about ……. I will tell you having visited the place that the people are really nice and the music is great. Todd said something really stupid one Sunday from the pulpit and we were out of there.

Oh my goodness, this Community Groups thing is like the groups my former church had. I went to the initial meeting, was assigned to a table with other single women, and was supposed to spill my guts to these strangers. I had to choke back tears I was so uncomfortable. When I got a phone call after that about meeting again, I told the person this wasn’t for me.

JDV:
“It also means sharing your entire financial portfolio and giving away the freedom to make any life decisions apart from the community group.”

And of course, the church and its “leaders” post every scintilla of financials, their personal lives, and decision making for everyone to see, right? Right?

Hahaha, silly minions.

We at the top of this pyramid scheme have matured beyond the need for that.

JDV: they had a velvet rope and someone who looked ready to turn you away — only there was no line of customers.

Imagine that person as St. Peter. The way things are going, will anybody want to go to heaven?

(Full disclosure: I don’t believe that people are literally turned away at the gates of heaven. I do worry about the worst within Christianity giving Christianity a horrible name.)

HUG: “Unfortunately, like Testimony Nights, everyone else has itchy ears for the Real JUICY Stuff.”

In 5 years, i’ve had like, one really juicy thing and no way I would have shared that in a group of randomly chosen people.

A open question to TWW readers:
Why are people so willing to submit to authoritarian church leaders? Does not the NT, and especially JC’s teachings go directly against authoritarian religious leaders??

You mention how to get out of a membership contract,what I want to know is how to keep your picture from being used in p.r.? A previous church we attended is having a 25 year”this is who we are and came from” I noticed some folks that left on their website. I PERSONALLY don’t anyone to know that I was involved in their church and was so foolish when I was young.

Nick Bulbeck: random

Here is a Shetland pony* doing the moon walk:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ekr05T9Iaio

*Or maybe an Icelandic knock-off.

Jeffrey Chalmers: Why are people so willing to submit to authoritarian church leaders? Does not the NT, and especially JC’s teachings go directly against authoritarian religious leaders??

I agree with Luckyforward that some people feel security in being followers.

I also think a lot of Christians like be tied up in cults of personality and believing that “God is really doing something here”. I’ve definitely known a number of Christians that equated a Christian celebrity pastor and large church numbers with God’s anointing. Some of those believed in the pastors we now know are abusers and predators. Some of that stems from our social media and celebrity Western culture and some because those pastors are charismatic and good talkers (even if they don’t write what they say).

JDV,

John 14:12-21 (KJV); Jesus said he would send us Comforter, the Spirit of truth, i.e., the Holy Spirit. This came to me when I read your response.

The hierarchy at Watermark isn’t the Holy Spirit.

Jeffrey Chalmers: Why are people so willing to submit to authoritarian church leaders? Does not the NT, and especially JC’s teachings go directly against authoritarian religious leaders??

As harsh as this might sound, I have a theory, too: A lot of people are just too lazy to do the heavy-lifting required to find out what the Bible really says, and are all too willing to allow someone else interpret it for them. We should not depend on the church to teach us. According to John 16, that’s the work of the Holy Spirit! When I teach Sunday School, I always encourage students to find out for themselves what the Scripture says about a matter. However, most people are unwilling to “hunger and thirst after righteousness” and would rather prefer to have someone else spoon-feed them what they want to know–even to the point of willingly subjecting themselves to a church’s “authority” in order to get it.

Jeffrey Chalmers: Why are people so willing to submit to authoritarian church leaders? Does not the NT, and especially JC’s teachings go directly against authoritarian religious leaders??

I’m going to guess you know how they twist scriptures to justify their so-called ‘ruling’ over the masses. So you have the possibility of ignorance causing naive, humble, trusting believers to do whatever they are told. This is perpetrated by using threats, fearmongering, and every other mind control trick in the book. How does any abuser get victims to ‘willingly’ submit repeatedly? It is not genuine willingness, but a cruel, deliberate use of predatory methods to intimidate, frighten and manipulate people who do not understand how such methods are being used against them.

I realize some find this offensive, but I cannot help but perceive organized religion as little more than a vast mind control operation. The true Body of Christ is made up of organic, voluntary relationships built on love and trust. This is not, on the whole, what we see in the so-called institutional ‘Church’.

No doubt there are, and have always been exceptions to the rule, but when you are built with a false blueprint you cannot expect to get the proper results. Anytime you have an enforced hierarchy and forced ‘authority’ you are in an institution built with the wrong blueprint. I am thankful that through the years God has raised up true servants to buck the trend and actually serve; but it seems that breed has pretty much become died out as Church became a money-making business.

I think bad people use others desire for community and love and knowledge against them. Sometimes it takes a while to 1. realize what is happening and 2. get the will to get out I guess.

Just Observation:

Protestants and Baptist, not including the Anglican church (due to their break away from Catholicism wasn’t part of the Reformation), try to shy away from too much or any hierarchy.

The mega churches and these false Christian cults cling to hierarchy. They are recreating what the Protestant Reformation ran away from.

Question:

Because Watermark looks just like a mega church on the surface, some Christians are easy “marks” for Watermark (pun intended).

Mandavilla,

If the photographs include your children, and they are under 18, you have total control if the photos go up or not.

Brian: hierarchy

Methodists, Lutherans, and a lot of smaller or unaffiliated churches have bishops, founding prophets, et al. I think what matters is not whether there is a top-down hierarchy or congregational governance, but how it is used. Either approach can be used in an authoritarian way. Either approach can be used to admit sunlight.

Brian: The mega churches and these false Christian cults cling to hierarchy. They are recreating what the Protestant Reformation ran away from.

“NO POPERY!” = “Now I Get To Be Pope. BURN THE HERETICS!!!!!”

Friend: Either approach can be used in an authoritarian way. Either approach can be used to admit sunlight.

Lea: Yes. I think that’s absolutely true. Not that one might not be better than the other, but it’s in the spirit of the thing. Hierarchy can be used to fix problems too.

Exactly. How it’s used is important. I went from a Baptist (SBC) polity to an Anglican (ACNA) polity. I like the checks and balances, locally, between Clergy and Vestry, and the fact that a bishop can put a check on a wayward priest. Granted, clericalism is a problem as well, just ask the Catholic church.

But the measures have to be there to create checks and balances. If it isn’t…well…
Throws hands around.

Muff Potter,

This urge to micromanage come from the realization there was a financial outcome to it? I’m not picking on Catholics here, it’s just a visual reference, you (the generic you), if you have a goal to start a church, success isn’t when the church building has the same square footage as the Basilica in Rome.

Just had another odd thought, the younger generations, age 40 and under, attended concerts in huge stadiums. Would that have any impact on drawing the younger lost souls?

Brian: This urge to micromanage come from the realization there was a financial outcome to it?
…
Just had another odd thought, the younger generations, age 40 and under, attended concerts in huge stadiums. Would that have any impact on drawing the younger lost sou

Think bigger–I went to Passion conference, which was the size of these stadium concerts. Good ole’ JPipes was there speaking. He sold a ton a books, too!

Mass published books, conferences, weekly TV sermons, church curriculum, church management consultants, sermon sales, concerts, individual speaking engagements, speaking at other churches, financial management (a la Guidestone), Youtube ads, professorships, donations…..

The churches themselves are only a small microcosm of the industry of evangelicalism.

Root 66: When I teach Sunday School, I always encourage students to find out for themselves what the Scripture says about a matter. However, most people are unwilling to “hunger and thirst after righteousness” and would rather prefer to have someone else spoon-feed them what they want to know–even to the point of willingly subjecting themselves to a church’s “authority” in order to get it.

At which point, they flunk an essential test of faith: “Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” (2 Timothy 2:15)

ishy: The churches themselves are only a small microcosm of the industry of evangelicalism.

I can vouch for that.
Out here in the Pacific Southwest Bible belt, it’s standard procedure.
You might be quite a draw to your mega-church, but ultimately, success is measured by how well you do on the speaking and conference circuit, radio, and how many book deals you can wangle.
Greg Laurie of the ‘Harvest Crusades’ fame would be a prime example.
Only an a-lister in those circles gets invited to a White House banquet and soiree.

Max,
There in lies one of the main causes of the topic for which this blog is focused… pew peons following like sheep instead of demanding that their leaders follow the teachings of JC and the NT.

For example, I was shocked when I started reading these blogs how many churches did not publish and vote on their budgets. The churches I have associated with always did, and I would be associated with one that did not. One of many “tests” pew peons can do to see if their church leadership is accountable and true servants.

ishy: many of them aim for celebrity status, not ministering to people

“Ministering to people” is not a characteristic of SBC’s New Calvinist pastors at church plants in my area. They don’t mingle with church members, don’t know most of their names, don’t visit them in their homes, don’t pray with them in hospitals and nursing homes, don’t preach funerals, don’t preach ‘the’ Gospel. Yet, they have plenty of time to tweet their lives away in local coffee shops. These “lead pastors” don’t tend to the field as they ought, which remains white unto harvest when they leave the community to climb the ladder to a bigger church elsewhere. They have celebrity, accolade and mega on their minds – that’s their “ministry” goal.

ishy: John Piper is a great example of that, with his “God is more glorified…” mantras.

The Pious Piper is just trying to out-flatter everyone else. The more he Glorifies God, the more God is flattered and the more God makes Piper his Court Favorite. Flattery, Flattery, Flattery.

Wild Honey,

Love bombing?

Jeffrey Chalmers,

One of the Deacons/Elders at my church quoted a figure of 94% people that attend a mega church do so because they want to remain anonymous.

Max,

I heard that a beautiful Rabbi from Nazareth once said:
“They have their reward…”

Jeffrey Chalmers: leaders follow the teachings of JC

There are two “JC’s” competing for the attention of Southern Baptists right now.

Brian: Is there a particular age range targeted by the cults like Watermark?

Most megas don’t just target age, but want young, married families. I suppose younger Christians are more malleable. Families tend to be more stable financially, and children often mean $$. I’m not as familiar with Watermark, but I know they present themselves as targeting that demographic.

There are churches that are exceptions to that. I used to visit one that targeted the middle-aged traditional crowd. Lots and lots of money in that church, so not sure the megas targeting the younger couples had the most effective strategy by their own standards. I went to school with a pastor who worked there, and he invited me to lunches that were $100 a plate. Liberty actually had an alumni luncheon there I was also invited to that ended up being a fundraiser.

In general, though, most megas do not want singles or the elderly. I know one very well-known mega that tried to target singles and quickly switched to young marrieds. A lot of singles in that church were fairly well-off, but I think the church rejecting them was more about not being able to bring in a whole group of family members than individual contributions.

ishy,

Would it be fair to say, not just mega churches but some medium and small size, not target the following groups:

The elderly poor, the disabled poor, single mothers, the poor, people on the street, people just off the street, people just out of prison on parole, people attending AA and NA?

Brian: the mega churches, pretty much targeting yuppies. Are some of the medium and small doing the same?

I’m sure there are some. There’s a lot of smaller churches who want to be megas, but I know of churches that do things just because that’s what they think they should be doing or because they are modeling themselves after a church like Willow Creek.

It works in reverse, though, because the church I used to go to is having trouble shifting to be more open to those under age 65. And there are some people in that church who are dead-set against doing anything to attract younger people.

Brian: Would it be fair to say, not just mega churches but some medium and small size, not target the following groups:

The elderly poor, the disabled poor, single mothers, the poor, people on the street, people just off the street, people just out of prison on parole, people attending AA and NA?

It disheartens me immensely, but yes. This is one reason I have had trouble joining any church lately. Even the churches that claim to be about the disenfranchised aren’t…

Once I was young and strong and had lots of disposable income,everyone wanted me,church,society, friends and family. Then I became old with a noticeable limp ,and a bank account that we are trying to refill before the winter of our life approaches. Believe me only a few want you then,Thanks be to GOD that he still wants me ,and in some ways I would still choose the circumstances I am in to learn that one profound truth.I drink of a well never leaves me or runs dry.

Brian:
Is Watermark the church where drove to a place, waiting 30 minutes to park, to watch a live streamed sermon?

It has multiple sites, so unless you go to the main campus in Dallas, likely that’s what you will experience. Gateway and Fellowship do the same thing.

Brian: Better refine the question: the mega churches, pretty much targeting yuppies.

That’s a big yup.
Young 30 something to 40 something yuppies with disposable income.
It happened in my town after the gentrification of a once charming semi-rural area that was once known as the lemon capital of the world.

Brian: The elderly poor, the disabled poor, single mothers, the poor, people on the street, people just off the street, people just out of prison on parole, people attending AA and NA?

I’ve thought about this for a long, long time. In the town where I go to church, the desired members are those who can blend in. I know people who suffer horribly, but you’d never see it in church because they manage to put on some OK clothes and sit quietly. If you stick around our town long enough, you will see these same churchgoers walking into AA, Al-Anon, etc. Some have been to prison, or have family members there. Many have suffered from illness, bereavement, poverty, violence.

So I think our town’s congregations expect something like stoicism, but that’s not all bad. When I have been suffering, I too have put on some OK clothes and managed to sit quietly. This feels like dignity to me, and maybe protective camouflage. Life is hard. You never know what the person sitting next to you has gone through.

Brian:
Wild Honey,

Love bombing?

Yup. The HBC plant we attended always threw “you are loved” somewhere in the service (I think after the closing prayer, but don’t remember for sure) and at the end of the weekly videos that got emailed out. After our previous church experience, where we left feeling very unloved, this felt wonderful. But it turned out that we were only loved as long as we toed the party line.

Mandavilla,

Amen!

Max,

All too often
“They’ll know we are Christians
‘Cause we’re Smug, ’cause we’re Smug,
Yes, they’ll know we are Christians
‘Cause we’re Smug…”

Can’t remember the reference, but one guy being interviewed on Christan media said his purpose in life was “to go up to those with Holy Hand Grenades in their pockets and pull the pins”.

ishy: Yes, I think this is true, too. Though I still don’t understand how they throw out everything in the Bible about humility and compassion and still think it’s only about right belief.

When you have that Get Out of Hell Free Card signed off by God before the creation of the world, you can be as Arrogant as you want. What’s God gonna do to you? You’re His Predestined Elect!

TS00,

I could say so much more, but I would end up on the naughty boy list.

Brian:
Jeffrey Chalmers,

One of the Deacons/Elders at my church quoted a figure of 94% people that attend a mega church do so because they want to remain anonymous.

I would question this statistic and how it was even achieved and what was it’s purpose. I don’t think people necessarily want to stay ‘anonymous’. They may not want to be in a church with 50 people that is in everyone’s business, though and if someone complained that people ‘want to stay anonymous’ I would be thinking that person wanted to be in *my* business.

I like a somewhat larger church (not a 10k church but 1-2) because there are more people, which means more people you might get along with, have similarities with. It generally means more services, more groups, etc. People with kids find other kids the same ages. I don’t think there is anything wrong with that.

I think a lot of people like to knock larger churches just *because* and that’s not right either. Find something that suits you. There is not one right way.

ishy: Even the churches that claim to be about the disenfranchised aren’t…

We have an affiliated tiny church that targets the very poor, homeless, housing insecure, but it is sort of a niche thing? To a certain extent you have to go where they are, at least speaking of the homeless, and your local tony church is not going to be in that neighborhood.

Lea: Older people tend to give more money, more consistently, so I agree with you in questioning the strategy.

Older people also tend to cut the neglectful churches out of their wills. When it comes time to bury Gramps, his children will not be making a generous freewill offering in exchange for the funeral.

I expect my church to value me through thick and thin.

ishy: I know there are some out there, but they are really hard to find.

Yes, and I wouldn’t know about this except we directly support them, i know the people involved, i’m on that committee, etc…

It’s not really a counter to your point at all. But these kind of churches are not going to be the rich mega with a lot of advertising in the best part of town that all your friends go to. Most likely. I love hearing about this particular one (that I mentioned) though. They have different takes on bible stories, and they do different kinds of support for each other (even potlucks!).

Lea,

I live in a small city, so we’re not much of a mega magnet anyway. There is a mega satellite here, but like I’ve said before, I don’t see the point of going somewhere to watch a famous pastor on a video feed when I can watch him in my pajamas at home on their website. And as far as I can tell, they don’t do anything in the community except donate to outside ministries.

There’s a lot of small churches here, unlike when I lived in Atlanta where it was lots of giant megas. But most of them have elderly congregations that are very set in their ways, even the ones that are in more progressive denominations. I kinda feel like I went from one extreme to another…

Muff/Tsoo.

I don’t think it’s rooted in religion, but in the human heart. The bible rants about greed many times. It’s not new, and it’s not tied to any particular denomination, imo.

I do get a little tired of *every* sin being laid at the feet of calvin lol. There is nothing new under the sun and there are flaws in every system.

Brian,

My elderly friend also mentioned she missed singing hymns.

Lea: One of the things that I think churches need to do is be *thoughtful* about these things.

I’ve noticed a lot of churches with these kinds of needs don’t even bother to ask members if they can help. There might very well be people who can help and just don’t know about it.

ishy,

You’re seminary trained, correct? Even as a female, as an evangelist couldn’t you start a ministry targeted at the disenfranchised?

ishy,

At the church that I’m attending now, one of the elders was part of a worship team at a megachurch. He said that it got to the point where he felt the people were watching them worship Him. He thought that the people, not the worship team, should be worshipping Him. So he helped start the church where I’m at now. It’s only a year and a half to two years old now.

And I finally remembered what it was that I wanted to ask you: with the megachurches and cults like Watermark targeting specific age, income, and marital status groups, was it impacting the witnessing and interacting with…(the groups I mentioned earlier).
And your answer was spot on. 🙂

Brian: At the church that I’m attending now, one of the elders was part of a worship team at a megachurch. He said that it got to the point where he felt the people were watching them worship Him.

Yeah, that’s exactly how I feel about church. It’s not just the former-SBC-now-a-cult churches, but most people who call themselves Christians that I’ve known in my 30 years of being a Christian.

Granted, there are a lot of people I know now who are just trying to make ends meet and doing everything they can to get by. I get that. But there’s a whole lot of Christians I’ve known who go to church to check some box on their weekly checklist, but have no interest in participating in anything that doesn’t involve them eating free food. And it’s pervasive.

I feel like I’ve burned out on church because it’s empty and offers almost nothing–not even God. The services are either so routine that everyone is bored and reading on their phones or designed to make you feel temporary happy feelings but there’s nothing to take away when it’s over. I’ve met some lovely people who will go out of their way for others, but they end up taken for granted in doing things for the church that really don’t have much impact on anyone or they end up left with very little and no one who would be around to help them.

Brian,

My volunteers came through a single church, but we were on a team with other churches. So not sure it applies in that situation. Most of the volunteers I had were great, and expressed a lot of enthusiasm about the ministry, but very few people were actually willing at all to even give it a try for one day. I got the impression the other churches were having very similar issues, though everyone I met from them were wonderful.

In the end, trying to keep enough people to fill the slots along with the huge problems behind the scenes at the organization were too much for me. Several of the volunteers ended up seeing some of that organizational drama personally and agreed it was not wise to continue.

Any Calvinist that thinks being elect is a get out of hell free card allowing them to live anyway they want does not even begin to understand Calvinism at all. (I am not a Calvinist–please note!)

Under that system of thought they should be constantly watching their own behavior and worrying like crazy over each and every fall into sin or misbehavior, since they do NOT believe in the preservation of the saints. (That is dispensational free grace once saved always saved.) Rather, Calvinism teaches the perseverance of the saints, so if they are failing to persevere they might be showing they are not elect and might need to repent more do more try harder. THAT is Calvinistic perseverance. Always examining your works to figure out if you are elect or not.

Of course some less than Calvinistic reformed and Lutherans in general are more focused on God’s mercy and grace. Not “performing” for an audience of One but coming to that One for mercy.

But both the true Arminian and the real Calvinist have to constantly check their spiritual state. One to make sure they are still saved and the other to see if they were ever saved at all.

ishy,

“That’s why I struggle with the idea of church in general. Most churches are more about church than God.”
+++++++++++++

indeed.

a religion that worships not God but church and christianity itself — the products, processes, ideas, & people.

evangelicalism is so commercial, shallow, & full of itself… i think it’s much more the culprit than other forms of christianity.

linda: Under that system of thought they should be constantly watching their own behavior and worrying like crazy over each and every fall into sin or misbehavior…

Like every surviving Massachusetts Puritan journal.
All navel-gazing sin-sniffing, all the time.

HUG:
Maybe there is an optimal size. Or maybe people need or want different sizes for a variety of reasons and I think that’s ok.

I do agree once you go over a certain size it’s probably suboptimal. A good rule of thumb is if you feel the need to franchise with a tv show, but maybe that just me being a snob about that because it makes no sense to me. Keep it in the building, people!

Friend,

It took a bit for your comment to sink in to my thick skull.

Some people in need can let pride block them from asking for help, myself included in there.

Sometimes it out of fear of not being understood. So you might not see those in need in your church.

Ishy,

Have you ever thought about starting a church? You are seminary trained, know some of the pitfalls that churches fall into, and based on your comments have a great heart. No one could question your being the pastor since you would be the founding pastor. You could call it Wartburg Bible Church.