“A fool is made more of a fool, when their mouth is more open than their mind.” ―
When we last left Tom Chantry, he was sentenced to a couple of decades in the slammer for his role in physically and sexually abusing children. He is also awaiting trial for a number of other child abuse charges and has expressed hope that his convictions would be overturned on appeal. He continues to say he is innocent, amongst other things.
The following post is a compilation of some recent posts by Todd Wilhelm of Thou Art the Man. This week, a commenter at Thou Art the Man said that he knows that Todd works for me and that I espouse heretical theology. I wonder if he knows that I’m binge watching Stranger Things, Season 3. I’m loving it. ( Especially the guy who fights the Russians (who are on the verge of breaking through to another dimension which is under a mall) while wearing a sailor top and short.Those Duffer brothers are beyond awesome!)
Sad to say, Todd does not work for me but he has become a good friend and a fellow fighter against abuse in the church.
Tom Chantry is broke because his father in law is no longer paying the bills.
Chantry Legally Declared Indigent – Is Al Huber Tapped Out?
Apparently, Al Huber will continue to pay for Chantry’s upcoming third trial, but not for the appeal of his six convictions. Logically I don’t comprehend how Chantry can get the State (That’s my tax dollars aiding a pedophile!) to provide an attorney for his appeal while Reverend Al continues to foot the bill for the third trial, but I was told this is allowable. So be it. I hope Reverend Al flushes every last penny down the Chantry toilet.
But then we have this court document, which, to my non-legal mind, appears to show Team Chantry wants to avoid another trial. I am unsure of what their strategy is to resolve the matter, but I would be shocked if Chantry will plead guilty to anything – he has his reputation to protect, after all!
A recording of a conversation between Tom Chantry and his good friend, co-author of an extremely divisive book, and ARBCA pastor David Dykstra
Tom Chantry’s Jailhouse Conversation with ARBCA Pastor David Dykstra
Dykstra says he is heartbroken about Chantry’s situation. Even though Dykstra fails to mention it, I’m certain he is also heartbroken about what Tom did to his numerous victims, right? You will never hear Dykstra utter any such thing. He has been covering up for Chantry since at least 2000.
…Dykstra compares the corruption in Texas in the early 1900s with the lack of justice in this age. He states that our justice system in the United States is “utterly flawed.” (Chantry’s conviction is apparently proof of the corruption!)
Chantry then tells Dykstra that Walt Chantry spends a couple of hours a day praying that Tom will be vindicated, and he (Walt) is confident that will happen. Walt also says the judicial system is broken, (presumably, because Tommy was convicted).
They then discuss the Chantry family’s plans to keep the Carlisle church members away from the future funeral of Walt Chantry. (Walt Chantry was the long-time pastor of the Carlisle church.) It’s very petty talk, but not surprising and, in my opinion, a sign that the Chantry family is sick.
The recording: Chantry appears to have no problem chatting up a storm on the prison phone line even though he knows that his conversations are being recorded.
Infighting in ARBCA
The Chantry’s are not happy with Dale Smith for not supporting Dabney Olguin. Tom Chantry’s Jailhouse Talk With Recently Ordained ARBCA Pastor Dabney Olguin
I have taken a clip of a speech Dabney Olguin gave at his graduation ceremony from Westminster Seminary, Escondido in 2016. At the end of his speech, he said, “I want to thank my pastor Tom Chantry, who is an alumni, for his example of faithful service to Christ and His kingdom and his support and encouragement and tutelage of me for the past close to six years now.”
Here is a link to the transcript of this conversation.
Chantry: This Was an Illegal Verdict;” and “All Prosecutors Should Be Hung!”
This is a jailhouse phone call between Chantry and his sister, Judy Rogers.
Tom Chantry’s Jailhouse Talk – “This Was an Illegal Verdict;” & “All Prosecutors Should Be Hung!”
ncluded were some very troubling remarks about Arizona prosecutors and judges. While I wouldn’t classify his comment that “all the prosecutors should be hung” as a direct threat, it nonetheless, in my opinion, warrants further investigation by Law Enforcement Officials. Chantry has a cadre of loyal sychophants and while I would hope they are harmless, one can’t be too careful these days.
Additionally, Chantry twice claims in this phone call that he was illegally convicted. Classic narcissism on display! These convictions were likely the first time Chantry has ever been held accountable for his actions, and poor Tom just can’t believe it!
Todd makes a good point by linking to an article which outlines how US judiciary is U.S. is facing rise in death threats. Looks like Chantry has joined the rest of the criminals out there in threatening law and order. What an example of a pastoral heart!
Special thanks to Todd who is keeping things under control in Arizona. I would be more than happy to hire him as a full time correspondent. He’s good!
1 BAM
Dee,
Thanks for the offer, but it’s doubtful you could pay me enough to lure me away from my Walmart Greeters job!
Seriously, thanks for the kind words.
I’ve read the two telephone conversation transcripts that Todd has posted and they are disheartening. A lot of anger at the outcome, no mention at all of the victims except to assert deficiencies in their testimony.
I don’t get the sense that the God who searches the heart is very real to the person who could be interpreting his experience through the biblical lens of Joseph’s suffering. It’s as though God isn’t there at all.
Bronze?
Multiple people testify about abuse they received as children from Tom Chantry. From two different locatons. All of which seems to have intensified over the years. His own words that he abused children such that he would never recover.
Yet he is innocent and the system is corrupt. His church allies support him and his reformed compatriots are silent.
So why do we have angry, even antagonistic exvangelicals spewing all over twitter, Facebook and podcasts? Not hard to figure out. Hypocrisy runs thick through Christianity. For many, it is about power and control. Loving God and loving your neighbor is just words on paper they chose to ignore. The god they love is themselves and that god told them they were elect.
The rest was preordained.
There are some people who think that acting as though something is true is just the same as if it was true. Needless to say, they are deluded and this is not the way of Jesus.
I listened to both phone conversations as much as I can as it reminded me of getting phone calls from correctional facilities concerning family members and brought up some memories, so I might have missed this. I did not hear Mr. Chantry say he loved his family or say “I love you”. Again I may be wrong. In every conversation I had with family who were incarcerated I would always say I love you no matter how much I was angry or hurt with what they had done. I am glad I did that family is worth it, even if they drive you nuts. I believe the victims in the case, Mr. Chantry had basically two trials and, minus one hold out juror in the first trial’s “hung jury” who apparently was not honest during Voir dir.
SiteSeer,
Didn’t Joseph Goebbels say something similar to repeating a lie makes it true? 😉
SiteSeer,
“There are some people who think that acting as though something is true is just the same as if it was true.”
++++++++++++++++
yes, a number of people i’ve observed come to mind.
yet i wonder……where is the dividing line between this and faith in God/Jesus/Holy Spirit?
OK, I’m sure the court document is authentic, but… a clerk named McQuality working with Deputy Harshman? These two people were clearly born for their jobs. 😉
This is a really interesting question. Perhaps it is presumptuous of me to hold an opinion (and, per the ‘Luther insult engine’, I should take up the occupation of a herdsman), but maybe there is some value in the following:
For over a decade (since my experience of an episode of what I interpret to have been use of church teaching office to manipulate a flock toward a leader-desired [and in retrospect really unwise] decision — quite mild on the scale of the things reported at TWW, but at the time quite distressing and eye-opening to naive me), I’ve been concerned that the present-day concept of “faith” places church teaching on the New Testament in serious tension with the Old Testament, which I think privileges “wisdom”.
In the OT, it’s “wisdom” that will save you from disaster and death. If you get one thing, get understanding. This (IMO) is why ‘there is safety in the counsel of many’ (a statement that IMO casts shade on the present preference for senior-pastor-centric leadership styles)
The OT privileging of “wisdom” appears to me in a lot of present-day thinking to be subordinated to the idea of ‘faith’ understood as ‘trusting God’ or ‘believing God’s promises’, but in practice ‘trusting/believing what one’s system tells one is true’ (which connects with your concern — to the extent that the system does not correspond to reality, such ‘faith’ could lead one into bad places, which I have seen happen again and again)
In the sorrowful episode mentioned above, “faith” was contrasted with “sight”, which was deprecated as “not of faith”, and then “sight” came to include all sorts of things that the OT would regard as “wisdom” considerations, such as “will we be able to complete what we want to start?” (a question that Jesus Himself raised, and that was scarcely in view in the manipulated decision process).
I suspect that a great deal of what is called “faith” in our day is way over the line into “presumption”.
If something isn’t “wise”, it may also be regarded by the Searcher of hearts to be “not of faith.”
I agree!
Chantry is of course appealing his child molestation convictions, here’s a link to bookmark for tracking the progress:
http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/aacc/appella/1CA/CR/CR190427.pdf
No appellate attorney listed for Chantry, says ‘Pro Se’?
All these dudes who are saying the system is ‘flawed’ because of a conviction would be saying the victims were lying if there had not been one, because he wasn’t ‘convicted’.
Heads I win, Tails you lose. It’s why you can’t trust any of it. They only say what is expedient to defend the one they want to defend.
Really? I hadn’t seen that.
I believe that was Phil Johnson’s argument for Chantry before the trial. He’s gone not so surprisingly silent on Chantry since the first trial. However, David Gray was convicted and they are still saying he’s innocent, so wouldn’t trust anything they say.
On the one hand, I am not thrilled about my tax dollars going to fund an appellate attorney for Chantry. In the other hand, he is entitled to an appeal and seeing him smacked down at the appellate level would warm the cockles of my cold, cold heart.
Many thanks go to Todd for following this case, getting background and obtaining documents. He lives 2.5 hours from the court and a lot of the docs he’s posted can only be obtained by going to the court clerk. Can you imagine how many cases go under the radar because there isn’t a diligent onserver like Todd keeping an eye on things?
IN THE NEWS
Mark MacDonald (BA, Bob Jones University) hired to craft the image of SBC’s International Missions Board:
https://twitter.com/BJU_PR/status/1161279065967484929
The last guy lasted just eight weeks earlier this year:
https://web.archive.org/web/20190413124946/https://www.thealabamabaptist.org/imb-communications-director-alford-decides-hes-not-the-right-fit-for-role/
Mr HaHaHaHa
I’ve deleted your comment but I am planning on writing an entire post on Friday on the despicable lack of understanding of the long range effects of child sex abuse. Shame on you, ARBCA and Tom Chantry. You should go and repent of your words. I wonder who Jesus would have spent his days with on this Earth… you or the victim?
Jerome,
Good catch…I wonder if he’s not up to ignoring embarrassing activities in the IMB?
Jerome,
PS: Since I’ve been informed that Todd Wilhelm works for me, I was wondering if you wold like to join my rapidly increasing investigative staff? No money but we’re loads of fun!
From IIRC the first transcript Todd posted, TJC was not happy with everything his legal counsel did in the 2nd trial. I can’t imagine that he would be pleased with court-appointed counsel — appointed counsel may not provide the kind of ‘maximum effort’ that he wants. That may be the implication of the pro se notice that Jerome called attention to above.
This may be related to what TJC was referring to in his ‘back to Godly productive routine’ mention in his conversation in the 2nd transcript Todd posted. Perhaps he’s spending his days in the jail library preparing his appeal.
MacDonald’s son did similar work for James MacDonald (apparently no relation?):
https://www.instagram.com/p/BkGtHADHxiS/
Meanwhile, the mission board’s longtime lawyer Derek Gaubatz has helped set up a consulting/investment business for former IMB Vice President, 9Marksist Sebastian Traeger (JD Greear’s brother-in-law):
Sebastian Traeger
Panthera Group
2019 – Present less than a year
Richmond, Virginia Area
“I…partner with dynamic leaders at startups, nonprofits, and values-driven companies. I make investments when I can also provide guidance and insights on product development, operations, and go-to-market strategies; and I consult when I can help bring strategic value to organizations in building and scaling stages.”
Sebastian Traeger
IMB (International Mission Board)
2014 – 2018 4 years
Richmond, Virginia Area
“I came on board to build a forward-looking leadership team, modernize the organization, and maximize programmatic impact. Leveraging strategic planning, mission explorations, operational overhauls, and workforce development, I positioned the organization for positive transformations on financial, technology, communications, and cultural fronts…ultimately achieving record-level giving, brand resonance, program expansions, a balanced budget, and operational security and efficiency across the organization.”
Dee – “I would be more than happy to hire him as a full time correspondent. He’s good!”
This is one thing we do agree on. He is good. I do respect what he does. Someday I hope to meet him in person as I now live in Arizona. I would also gladly work for him doing whatever I could.
I do not think that we so much need more watch-blogs as we need them to work together and to throw off whatever petty or foolish things might hinder that cooperation. I am called to communicate a message that The Church needs to prepare to become an hospital for both those physically and those emotionally wounded in the continuing civil war in churches and especially those that come out of these environments with abusive leaders who prey upon and exercise authority over others. This involves helping people to let go of the past, instead of reliving it over and over and over, and receive the actual love of God and ministry of Jesus and the Holy Spirit in their deepest parts. Then they can turn around and help others heal. I have seen this work both in my own life and in some others. The carnage is going to be horrendous, and in many instances already is. There are things we all can do to help and there are things we all can do that will only make things worse. May we all be humble enough to gain the wisdom to actually make things better.
Pride is just as much our enemy as anyone elses. It is also a much bigger enemy than the people that are the abusers. Tom is locked up and no longer much of a threat. But our pride always threatens to trip us up, make us fall, and wipe out whatever good we may have accomplished in life. This is easy to see in certain others but always hard to see in ourselves.
the above is from:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/sebastiantraeger
Coming from a background raised in the Charismatic movement and then spending some time in a Pentecostal church, The Vineyard and finally in a group that become a local IHOP, I whole heartedly agree with what you have stated. While there were good things in all of these that I try to hold on to, there was way too much freedom to deal loosely with the Word of God and it led to many excesses and encouraged a bunch of things that were, from the beginning, fake. I experienced enough of the real to be able to start discerning the difference. But Faith without Wisdom just becomes Foolish False Religious practices. Not that I am picking on just this group. I have seen tendencies everywhere in what calls itself a church to wander away from the faith and take up beliefs and practices that become self-deceptive over time. I see a universal need for repentance and turning back to actually living like you want the Kingdom of God to come and His Will to be done on this planet.
I could have predicted that just from his handle.
I mean, “Mr HaHaHaHa”?
I’d expect a handle like that to include a second line: “(See How Clever I Am? See? See? See?)”.
“A lie, repeated often enough, becomes Truth.”
as well as
“Effective Propaganda consists of Simplification and Repetition.”
And a Seinfeld character also said:
“Remember — it’s NOT a lie if You Believe It.”
dee,
I was wondering about that post… it further shows how illogical the supporters of Chantry et al are….
To a head like Chantry’s, the only Law is the Law of Thelema:
DO WHAT THOU WILT.
“We are not like other people. Ours is a High and Lonely Destiny, Digory.”
This is what I think when i see people talk about ‘false accusations’. They usually have no clue what the truth is, but they feel free asserting that whatever they want to believe is the actual truth.
they then pivot to any argument that suits their preferred thought. (ie, it hasn’t been proven in court/the court was wrong)
Also going badly is the cricket. England look certain to face an innings defeat, as Australia march steadily towards a series whitewash.
I’ve seen a few people who think that “false accusations” can also mean things they think they should be able to get away with. “Well, she wanted it even though she said no, so it’s a false accusation.”
I just read a NYT article about Jeffrey Epstein, and apparently he argued that throughout history men have been able to have sex with preteens/female children, so there’s nothing wrong with it. It’s wholly an argument based on “It’s what I think I should be able to do, so it’s right”, whether or not it is right or legal. Whether it’s narcissism or entitlement or both, I dunno.
Jeffrey Chalmers,
Sadly, the ARBCA needs to be ashamed of themselves. They spawned people like this. Sick, really sick and in need of help.
Interesting.
I see it SO often for opinions. That one dude yesterday claimed someone was ‘falsely accused’ of sexism, which leaves no room for discussion, nuance, or any other thing. Accusing someone of false accusations is accusing them of lying, such a blunt instrument is meant to stop discussion, discovery, etc, and shame a person.
Unless you have some serious evidence? I personally don’t want to hear it.
Definitely. I know it has become a narrative in our society, because I’ve heard a family member rattle off “false accusations are common” in reference to sexual assault, when in fact research says they are quite rare. That family member didn’t want to hear statistics, so it’s definitely not a rational narrative based on facts. I think the opinions and belief in entitlement are all packaged up in that irrational narrative.
ishy,
Yes. The whole thing gives me hives now. People only want to believe stats that make them satisfied that they are correct and they assume all the other stats are wrong. It’s not wonder everything is a mess.
They are about to do a netflix series on a woman who was raped in and they accused her of lying about it, even to the point of taking her to court for it/threatening her housing/etc. Then the guy went on to rape a whole bunch of other people and actually eventually got caught and had pictures of her. Sigh.
“BUT EVERYBODY’S DOING IT!” is a standard mantra of sexual predators.
I had it used on me once, long ago.
As a high-pressure pickup line.
I few years ago, when one of my molestors was confronted with what he did to me, that was the verbatim response. What was worse is that the family member that confronted him (on her own) accepted that as an excuse…until I told her the it was no excuse, even if it were true – which, of course, it was not.
Welcome to the Post-Truth Age.
Though it’s more accurate to call it “Who’s TRUTH?” Age.
Because everyone has their own Absolute TRUTH, which is coming to contradict all the others’ Absolute TRUTHs.
Let the Game of Thrones begin.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
P.S.
“It’s not that we’ll mistake them for the truth. The real danger is that if we hear enough lies, then we no longer recognize the truth at all. What can we do then?”
— Opening voice-over, HBO’s Chernobyl
Headless Unicorn Guy,
They did such a good job on that show and the cover ups and lies and good party men who really don’t have a clue what they’re doing and all are definitely applicable to the kind of stuff we discuss here.
I was driving home from work and wondering if ARBCA couldn’t be a Racketeering Influenced Corrupt Organization (RICO), since it seems that for pretty close to all of ARBCA’s history, they’ve been covering for Tom Chantry. (ARBCA was founded in 1997.) But this is just an idle ex-lawyer thought, not intended to be legal advice by any stretch of the imagination.
Jeannette Altes,
That’s adding insult to injury. I’m so sorry.
Maybe at the very least you can have the movie rights to this continuously evolving drama….where will it end?
Samuel Conner,
“I suspect that a great deal of what is called “faith” in our day is way over the line into “presumption”.”
+++++++++++++++
or magic
Friend,
Thanks. There aren’t too many family members left I talk to. Some have even offered to mediate reconciliation. Ummm….no. Thanks. *smh*
Wow, this is an interesting and really thought provoking observation. Ideally, faith would be in addition to wisdom, and many new testament passages also praise wisdom, but you have a very good point. There has definitely been a bias against wisdom in churches that I’ve gone to, it was all about unquestioning faith.
You’ve really given me something to think about.
The synthesis that I have been crawling toward is that perhaps “wisdom” and (whatever the biblical concept is that stands behind the word we translate as) “faith” might be the same underlying thing, viewed from different perspectives.
Yes; “faith” that takes the form of “magical thinking” is quite far from biblical “wisdom”; that’s IMO more or less what happened in the church manipulation thing that started me thinking about this more than a decade ago. Having been embedded in the “evangelical thought collective” for so long, it was hard to find language at the time for what I sensed was wrong; things got clearer after I stepped away.
I should offer at least a sketch of a justification for this hypothesis.
The reason this seems likely to me is that I think that OT and NT are not in opposition to each other; they tell different parts of the same story.
In the OT, it is pretty clearly “wisdom” that “saves”.
In the NT, it is pretty clearly “faith” (for some definition of “faith”) that “saves”.
(obviously, in both it is God who saves, but there are warnings and exhortations in both testaments to pursue certain things)
So it seems to me, on the assumption that OT and NT belong together, that perhaps we should reckon that “wisdom” and “faith” also belong together. Perhaps they are different aspects of, or different perspectives on, the same thing.
For many years, the relatives damaged me and then picked on me for being damaged. Pulling back from family has broken that habit, but it took a long time. Slowly, a few relationships strengthened; at least people listen to me a bit better. I keep trying to have a full life without frequent family contact. That takes deliberate effort, and it’s been worthwhile.
I’ve also found opportunities to share experiences without making myself vulnerable or repulsing people. If I know someone well, I can say calmly, “I come from an emotionally abusive family, so Christmas isn’t always big family occasion.” Mature adults accept this. It has also helped me to tell doctors the basics, so they can treat me with extra sensitivity, screen for anxiety and depression, etc.
Just sharing here, not recommending… we all have to figure this out for ourselves, and it seems to be a lifelong project. Wishing you peace today.
It’s interesting how member churches are dropping their affiliation by the minute. Wouldn’t it be great if the denomination just went away/ But then again, they would probably reform (a double entendre) and continue their wretched alleged (for the lawyers) activities.
In today’s post, I’m going to show you the despicable stuff going on behind the scenes with these people.Some of these awful people have been after me behind the scenes for a couple fo years and then they’ve gone after Todd. I don’t know what’s wrong with these people but if anyone is left in that groups of churches who is in anyway normal and compassionate, they need to make an appearance. I’m getting irritated.
PS: Told my husband I want to spend a couple of months every year in Tucson/Phoenix after he retires. Want to join a TWW commune? I think Todd’s in.
Jeffrey Chalmers,
Today, I’m going to demonstrate how wretched they are.
Thanks, Dee, for shining light on these things.
I feel pretty confident that it won’t faze the subjects one bit — amazing grace has saved wretches like them — but everyone else will benefit from the expose.
Friend,
Thanks. 🙂
It is a lifelong process. There are days I get a little frustrated (sad, too) that I don’t have a supportive family. But I have found my mental health requires being disengaged from the dynamic.
And holidayes are hard. For several years, a dear friend took me with her to her family holidays and her family ‘adopted’ me. They know the general story. That was very helpful. But the last couple of years, that has not worked out and the holidays have been a little tougher.
But I am healing. I’m much better now that I was a few years ago and not as well as I will be. 😉
I’d be happy to visit! Especially if it’s southern Arizona in the winter. Unfortunately, I’m going to be working at the evil too big to fail bank for the foreseeable future, so can’t join a commune. That said, I’m stll friends with my co-op buddies from university 35+ years later.
ION: Cricket
Haven’t been following this too closely as there’s nothing really to follow, but I think it is safe to assume that (although I understand there was some time lost to rain) Australia are building a commanding first-innings lead as Steve Smith hit a third century in as many innings.
The reason Tom Chantry, ManaGAWD, “won’t shut up” is he’s deeply and madly in love with the sound of his own voice — and probably the smell of his own farts.
And today’s Christianese vocabulary is completely Weaponized, Locked, and Loaded.
Screwtape must be gloating his ass off.
In other news, remember James MacDonald (JMac from Chicago)?
According to Eagle, he’s started his comeback trail, complete with Signs and Wonders Testimony:
https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2019/08/16/is-james-macdonald-the-disgraced-former-harvest-bible-chapel-pastor-who-allegedly-wanted-to-plant-child-pornography-on-the-computer-of-the-ceo-of-christianity-today-planning-his-come-back/
Guess who’s coming back?
http://julieroys.com/james-macdonald-signals-return-to-ministry-in-facebook-post/
When I used to visit Tucson, I would ONLY go in the Winter.
And they don’t call the Phoenix area “The Valley of the Sun” for nothing.
Complete with Signs and Wonders (AKA “the guy from the gas station in Casper Wyoming”) from The LOOOOOORD Himself leading/commanding JMac back into Ministry! God Wills It!
Timing very convenient, and does NOT pass the smell test.
Mancow needs to put a few more of those tapes he has on the air and on social media.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
I think Luther may be rubbing off. Did I start that?
And when the aquifer is depleted and/ or poisoned from the dumping of coal ash, what then?
Mark Driscoll will shower everyone with his glory?
Maybe we should try Sedona?
Friend,
Friend, I do know of a family named Harshman here in southern Arizona, and they have relatives in Yavapai County.
Big electric doesn’t give a rat’s rip about “what then?”
The only thing they care about is big profits now.
Thank you. My family has several names with more than one meaning, so I should probably know better than to enjoy this sort of thing. 😉
Way off-topic, but the thread seems to have settled into that mode:
I recently came across a link to a IMO wonderful older post by Ben Witherington, a biblical scholar in the Methodist tradition.
It concerns the identity of “the beloved disciple” in the Fourth Gospel and has implications for the authorship of that Gosepl. Maybe this is familiar to others; I had never previously heard of this hypothesis, and found BW’s arguments to be persuasive and edifying. Perhaps others will appreciate this:
http://benwitherington.blogspot.com/2007/01/was-lazarus-beloved-disciple.html
I’m looking at Flagstaff, myself. Once you get north of the Mogollon Rim and well east of Kingman, you’re out of the desert. More semi-arid grasslands, pine forests, and actual seasons.
Sedona has more New Age Woo-Woo than California.
Don’t waste your breath, Muff.
In the Christian Bubble, remember “Christ Is Coming Soon (Any Minute Now) And It’s All Gonna Burn!”
Outside the Christian Bubble, I have also learned to keep silent as a survival tactic. Too much chance of a knee-jerk reaction like “ALL LIES! FAKE NEWS! WHATABOUT THE CLINTONS? THE CLINTONS? THE CLINTONS?”
I’ve concluded that we’re all living in a South Park episode.
Samuel Conner,
“So it seems to me, on the assumption that OT and NT belong together, that perhaps we should reckon that “wisdom” and “faith” also belong together. Perhaps they are different aspects of, or different perspectives on, the same thing.”
++++++++++++++
i wonder how all this would look if we did an exercise where the NT stopped (book/chapter-wise) with the book of Acts.
seems to me the essence of abusive religion is control.
seems to me that Paul’s epistles especially, and the others as well, lend themselves to rules, and rules are the fuel for systems of control.
The epistles are full of opinion and advice about GOD — exactly what a manager wants (a manager of people = pastor, a manager of information = theologian).
the manager is looking the for shortest distance between 2 points in order to organize everything neatly.
the epistles lay it all out — lots of opinion and advice which, when the concept of God is added, become rigid mandatory rules requiring conformity.
anyway, babbling on here, i think understanding faith in God would take on a much different hue if the epistles were more of an afterthought. if we adjusted where we put the highs and the lows.
you can’t put highs on everything. you end up looking like this:
well, search on ‘yogi sadhu contortion’ in google images (I’ll leave it at that, to be nice to our gracious blog host).
and it’s not possible so nobody does — even though they think they do, claiming to be “the only truly biblical christians” on the planet.
everyone makes decisions where to put highs and where to put lows.
Oh, I know. The last time I went there with my family, my conservative Lutheran aunt was hanging out the window casting demons out of people.
True story.
elastigirl,
A question that has been on my mind in recent years is “what should be understand ‘christian assemblies’ to be for ?”
One’s answer to this will, I think, shape how one interprets Paul’s epistles.
The standard/consensus answer in the ev world is, more or less, “the churches are God’s earthly instrument for implementing His plan to divert people from the ‘broad road to destruction’ onto the ‘narrow road to life’ (where ‘destruction’ and ‘life’ are understood in consensus terms as, respectively, ‘post-mortem ECT’ and ‘post-mortem bliss’).
On that view of the purpose of local christian assemblies, even if one didn’t think that one found warrant in Paul’s letters for rules and control, one would almost certainly still be tempted to impose rules and seek to intrusively control the flock, in view of the high stakes for those still outside the flock.
That’s not meant to sound cynical; I think it’s the reality. I think this is part of why congregations can be willing to overlook profound character flaws in their leaders, and even excuse criminal moral lapses — what the flawed leaders are achieving through the preaching of ‘the gospel’ is so much more important than whatever suffering they may inflict on those inside and outside the flock that the latter is not worthy to be compared with the former.
This might even be part of the TJC coverup — one can envisage that TJC was regarded to be such a talented preacher, and preaching was regarded to be so essential for the accomplishment of the desperately important mission of local christian assemblies, that his admittedly criminal acts were covered up for the sake of preserving the future ‘gospel ministry’ that TJC was expected to have, and that the “informal council” members and ARBCA higher-ups reckoned would lead to the rescue-from-damnation of numerous people. The damage to the children that TJC abused might, on this view, be regarded as deeply regrettable collateral damage. But war is messy, and the church is at war, and anyway what happened was decreed in eternity past and if what TJC did stumbled some of those children away from Christ …. well evidently they were not among the elect to begin with.
This sounds like a really cranky characterization; actually I’m trying to interpret sympathetically. I think it’s hard to overstate the hold that post-mortem punishments holds on christian imagination, and I think it can lead to all sorts of compromises. That by itself, of course, is not a valid reason to doubt it, but I have come to doubt it for what seem to me to be credible biblical and theological reasons, and that has liberated me to contemplate scenarios such as the one above.
I no longer think that’s what Paul thought the congregations he was founding were for. It’s interesting that there really isn’t anything corresponding to “the Great Commission” outside the Gospels and the early part of Acts — Paul doesn’t transfer this task to the churches he founded, for example.
I suspect that the churches were meant to be little Jesus-shaped versions of Israel (outposts of YHWH’s rule) among the Gentile nations. I suspect that this is a continuity between OT and NT. They were meant to be communities in which “the life of the Age to Come” (I think this is what is meant by ‘zoe aionios’, that is customarily translated ‘eternal life’) would be lived by Jesus-followers in the present age.
I think this is why the “love one-another” command that occurs repeatedly in Jesus’ intimate final pre-Cross conversation with the apostles, crops up again and again in Paul, phrased in various ways.
I think that if one views “what the local church” is for in that way, one will find it much less important to control the flock. In fact, one might want to give the flock a lot of freedom (within certain ethical boundaries — Jesus did command such) in order to allow “one another” ministry to flourish.
And for those who worry that this might harm evangelism. I’m not sure that it would. The early Jerusalem church seems to have been a “love one another” kind of community, and it is also said to have enjoyed the favor of — to have been viewed favorably by — the people outside it. And it grew contagiously.
And this drew people to Christ and these communities. Conversely, the religious communities we see today are not drawing to Christ or their communities.
Many congregations are quietly flourishing, even if they are not growing by leaps and bounds. Some are healthy but slowly losing members. Numbers don’t tell the whole story—not about Truth, not even about viability. I’d happily attend a small church of the type I recognize from childhood, rather than a place that resembles a nightclub with a timeshare pitch.
Flag has the second largest seasonal snowfall in the entire country. I hope you like snow. And the growing season is only 100 days.
On the bright side, that’s two whole crops of 50-day tomatoes!
That sounds kind of amazing.
Thanks for the kind words, but I have had a lot of help, most of whom wish to remain anonymous.My thanks to them and really, to all of you who stand up for those that have been abused.
The legal pleading you posted has nothing to do with “a trial.” It is an Order related to an appeal from a verdict rendered at the end of a trial. Under Under the Bill of Rights, every American citizen is entitled to appeal from verdicts, even convicted pedophiles.
The pleading you posted shows just two things.
(1) It gives notice that Chandry’s trial attorney will not be representing Chandry during subsequent appeals. That is a common occurrence. The skills necessary for being a trial attorney are quite different from those necessary to be an appellate attorney. Most trial attorneys I know rarely practice appellate law, and vice versa.
(2) The order shows that Chandry is being adjudged “indigent,” at this moment in time and according to standards under Arizona law, for purposes of having an appellate attorney appointed to help with his appeal. And, believe me, from the perspective of judicial administration, it is much more cost-effective (not to mention constitutionally robust) to have a court-appointed appellate attorney represent a convicted criminal during subsequent appeals than it is for appeals court administrators and judges to try and wrestle with pro-se pleadings and briefs written by a non-lawyer convict or semi-literate fellow prisoner who writes briefs in exchange for inmate protection and cigarettes.
I don’t think much more than that can be read into this Order, especially in terms of what sort of financial help Chandry might receive later on from friends or family as his appeals wind their way through the Arizona appellate system.
1. The name is Chantry, not ‘Chandry’
2. please see Todd’s original post, he is referring to a filing regarding the other charges Chantry is still facing that stated: “Defense is trying to resolve this matter without a trial…Defendant was sentenced to DOC in another matter”:
https://thouarttheman.org/2019/08/03/chantry-legally-declared-indigent-is-al-huber-tapped-out/
Oops, here is Chantry’s lawyer Ryan Stevens:
https://www.martindale.com/appellate-practice-lawyers/flagstaff/arizona/
“Appellate Practice Attorneys • Ryan J. Stevens • Flagstaff, AZ”
Chantry’s lawyer Ryan Stevens has argued cases all the way to the Federal (Ninth Circuit) Court of Appeals:
https://azdailysun.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/two-flagstaff-couples-join-same-sex-lawsuit/article_6543e7b2-92e5-11e3-b9cf-001a4bcf887a.html
“lawsuit seeking to overturn Arizona’s ban on same-sex marriage…Ryan J. Stevens of the Griffen & Stevens law firm and attorney Mik Jordahl…are prepared to take the issue all the way to the nation’s highest court. ‘Maybe the Arizona case will be the one that goes to the Supreme Court,’ Stevens said.”
https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2014/10/19/arizona-same-sex-gay-marriage-couples-challenge-ban/17544427/
“Natalie and Meagan Metz were talking with a close friend in Flagstaff, a lawyer named Ryan Stevens. The topic was marriage. ‘Why don’t we push it in Arizona?’ Meagan remembers him saying.”
“Ryan Stevens had built his law practice in Flagstaff and argued complex cases…he began to wonder if this could be a case he might argue. His conversations with Meagan and Natalie Metz, two close friends, nudged him toward acting on his ideas…”
“On Friday morning, he read the judge’s decision. ‘Oh, my God, this is it. This is it,’ he said. He looked up to see one of the partners in his office. ‘We won!’ He was overjoyed for Meagan and Natalie and the others in the case. They had waited for so long…One detail remained for Stevens. Around noon, he left his office and went to the Coconino County courthouse. He walked in with Christopher Gomez, his partner of six years, and the two of them applied for a marriage license. They walked out the door with the license a few minutes later.”
Jerome,
Interesting!
Jerome,
Whatever on the misspelling of Chandry’s name. Thanks for your eagle eye. Now I’ll misspell it intentionally just for your pleasure.
As for you plea that I read an article, again nothing you’ve observed changes my comments. “We have THIS court document, which, to my non-legal mind, appears to show Team Chandry wants to avoid another trial.” Then the Order Appointing Appeals Counsel is posted. Hence my observation that a Notice of Appeals Counsel has nothing to do with a trial. Because it doesn’t. See how that works? .
As for the phenomenon of trial attorneys rarely practicing appellate law, that’s true also. My comments don’t rule out the possibility though, as you so clearly pointed out. I have my suspicions about the point you’re trying to make, but, again, whatever. You go on being you.
Dee is excerpting this from Todd Wilhelm’s article, and links to it. Go there and see he’s talking about a document filed by Chantry’s lawyer Ryan Stevens that states, regarding the matter of additional charges involving abuse of another boy:
“Defense is trying to resolve this matter without a trial”
document image here:
https://thouarttheman.org/wp-content/uploads/2019-08-03-Chantry-trying-to-resolve-matter-without-trial.png