I’m very sad. He was raised in a sick culture that valued rules over true relationships and true love. And that’s what his book was about. That’s what purity culture is about. Do it all right and God is obligated to give you the life that you want. But, that’s not what Jesus tells us at all. Jesus gave himself for us and told us that he’ll always be with us as we love one another. But, he didn’t promise a perfect marriage partner. And he certainly didn’t give us rules for how to court in 21st century USA. Everything Jesus told us was to love God and love others, however that looks in our lives. I’m so sorry that Josh and Shannon’s marriage is on the rocks. I hope that they can reconcile, but I agree that it’s not promising. But, God is a God of grace who understands that young adults don’t always get it all right. So, we pick ourselves back up and go on loving God and loving others in the best way we know how.

“The public deserves to know that his silly theology and rules didn’t even help him although he vowed his *rules* would make for wonderful marriages.
This is the end of an era.That’s good.”

Agreed.

Catherine: He was raised in a sick culture that valued rules over true relationships and true love. And that’s what his book was about. That’s what purity culture is about. Do it all right and God is obligated to give you the life that you want.

This really sums it all up.

I also know, from many friends who came out of SGM, that his parents pushed him into doing many of these things way too young. Part of me wonders if his dad even wrote most of the book for him. I don’t believe that philosophy was really his, but the one of his parents and CJ Mahaney.

Several of my Christian college friends bought this hook, line, and sinker. Most of them are divorced now. I had female friends who married guys who pursued them, even though they didn’t like them, because they thought God only spoke to men about marriage and they didn’t get to know the men they were marrying. Those marriages were full of abuse, anger, and hurt.

ishy: also know, from many friends who came out of SGM, that his parents pushed him into doing many of these things way too young. Part of me wonders if his dad even wrote most of the book for him. I don’t believe that philosophy was really his, but the one of his parents and CJ Mahaney.

That really wouldn’t surprise me if this was the case. Josh went from living with his parents who were deep on the homeschooling movement/business to living with C.J. and apparently where Josh was “fast tracked” to replace C.J. as CLC’s new Sr. Pastor.

Josh never had a time to be on his own or in a place to think for himself and find himself.

That said this is a sad situation. One thing you don’t here in their statement is any mention of God. Hopefully they both will look to His strength to hopefully reconcile.

Josh was the one Sovereign Grace Leader who declared the exposure of C.J.Mahaney’s sin and hypocrisy a public “spanking” and I am sure the pushback Josh received for especially the other leaders was hard on both Josh and Shannon. Josh also seemed to be the one leader who believed that standards and rules should apply to C.J. just like they had to others and again received push back.

In Josh’s Ted Talk Josh indicated how hard it was to listen to critics of kissing dating goodbye when so many people were saying good it was.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=D2kV4ngi7J4

This is an interesting account of the fad

https://ikdg.wordpress.com/2008/12/01/one-persons-historical-account-of-the-kissing-dating-goodbye-fad/

Max: I suppose he will disappear from the scene for a while to emerge repentant and reinvented … but God help the people who restore him to ministry.

I hope his disappears permanently. I believe one of the worst influences on many of the abusive people in TWW articles is the drive to be “known”. I think this crazy drive to be in charge, to be considered a “leader”, and to be in Christian celebrity culture are the exact things that make people want to treat other people like objects.

M. Joy,

Kind of agree he doesn’t deserve a lot of sympathy but I’ll give him some. His parents emphasized, promoted his status, celebrity. (especially with the early HSLDA home schooling crowd ) starting when he was very young. I’m pretty sure he was made to walk down a certain path, and repeatedly told he was a, “leader”. He himself was raised in a toxic culture.

Mae: he doesn’t deserve a lot of sympathy but I’ll give him some … raised in a toxic culture

Therein lies a major problem within New Calvinism. Many of these preacher-boys were raised with some sort of toxic upbringing which retarded their spiritual growth and then became unfortunate enough to become indoctrinated into reformed theology with its new & improved way of doing church. It’s increasingly clear that many of them chose to “go” into ministry, rather than “called” into ministry, in order to gain a pulpit to release their confusion into the pew. Harris has always been trying to find himself … Good Lord! When will the institutional church tire of stunted leaders in the pulpit that don’t know who they are in Christ! We need more men of God, not preacher-boys … God, send us some!

singleman: Purity culture may be seriously wounded but I doubt it will give up without a fight …

The purity culture is a precursor to complementarianism … the New Calvinist movement won’t surrender it easily.

I grew up in the Christian Homeschool culture. I would second Steve240’s comment above. At the time, Josh was doing all the things he was taught from birth that were ‘the right way to live’. It takes time to see things in a different way and even more time to pursue life in a different way. He was a product of the culture that harmed many, and was himself harmed as well, even as he was participating and temporarily profiting from it.

Max:
With this announcement, Harris is kissing a lot of things goodbye: (1) his sweet deal with the purity culture, (2) celebrity status, (3) the sanctity of marriage, (4) his responsibility to his children, (5) his New Calvinist buddies, (6) book profits, and (7) hopefully, the pulpit.

I suppose he will disappear from the scene for a while to emerge repentant and reinvented … but God help the people who restore him to ministry.

From looking at his Instagram page, it doesn’t appear that he has been pursuing ministry or a return to Christian celebrityism. His business looks completely secular in nature. Of course, who knows what his long term goals are.
Many of the IG accounts he follows are about ‘deconstructing’ from religion and, interestingly, about NPD (CJ Mahaney perhaps?). I don’t know him, but it has a different feel from those fallen leaders who disappear to work on their return.

When will we ever learn what a true leader is? The Bible is very explicit as to who can lead, and you don’t choose someone and then expect them to live up to it. They live up those standards and when you see that done consistently, then and only then does the church call them to lead.

We need to sideline all who tell us they are called, and choose only those who wait for the church to recognize their gifts and call them.

Sorry, male nor female, educated or not, whatever your theology or denomination, popular writer/speaker/preacher or whatever, I am not called to follow you. Never. I am called to follow Christ. If I do so, I will recognize those functioning in the way the Bible describes human servants of the Body, and move alongside to help them.

But as soon as you announce your authority and call me to follow you I reject you as a leader. You have overstepped scriptural bounds and disqualified yourself.

linda: When will we ever learn what a true leader is? The Bible is very explicit as to who can lead, and you don’t choose someone and then expect them to live up to it. They live up those standards and when you see that done consistently, then and only then does the church call them to lead.

Perhaps when people don’t treat the few with responsibilities in a church as aribiters on all things leadership. The default selection of leaders often is an afternoon meet and greet followed by a vote, or just leaving it to an outside hierarchy. Whatever could go wrong with farming out oversight duties to such a construct?

Catherine: Do it all right and God is obligated to give you the life that you want.

Let the Sorcerer mark the proper signs and speak the proper incantations and the summoned spirit is obligated to give the Sorcerer whatever he wants…

MercyMe,

I haven’t followed Joshua Harris or his wife on social media or anywhere else. In fact, until this week I hadn’t heard much about him since last winter when the Christian world was still abuzz about his documentary. However, Julie Anne noted in her post at Spiritual Sounding Board that Shannon has been using hashtags such as “#exvangelical” and “#deconversion” in some of her Instagram posts. I also couldn’t help but notice that Joshua chose not to return to the pastorate when he completed his studies at Regent College. Evidently both of them have been doing a lot of rethinking and reassessing.

Joshua Harris definitely doesn’t seem to be following the same path as folks like Mark Driscoll, Perry Noble and Tullian Tchividjian who are trying to restart, or have restarted, their respective pastoral careers.

Patti: I first heard of Joshua Harris when he was being promoted on the radio over here in the Pacific Northwest where he is from … I had been helping a young person who I had coached in high school to see the errors in Mark Driscoll’s sermons …

Harris and Driscoll were buds in the early days of the New Calvinist movement. They served together on The Gospel Coalition Council. Two peas in a pod – it was and is all about them, not Jesus.

Patti: While not happy about this news, like Dee is not, it does give validation to what we all seem to already know here, that the purity culture fixes nothing!

With a continual dropping of shoes among the New Calvinist who’s-who, perhaps folks ensnared by the bells & whistles of the reformed movement will come to the realization that celebrity church culture is all about nothing as well.

MercyMe: … it doesn’t appear that he has been pursuing ministry or a return to Christian celebrityism. His business looks completely secular in nature …

I suppose if he gets a spotlight on him in the secular world, he will opt out of ministry … but, it’s hard to keep narcissists out of the pulpit once they get a taste of glory. Perhaps another book? “I Kissed New Calvinism Goodbye” … there is a growing unrest in those ranks which might pose a lucrative market for such a compendium.

However, having said all that, if young Harris were to genuinely repent, seek to restore his marriage, and realize that he forfeited his right to a pulpit … he would not seek any sort of future engagement in Christian ministry.

Max,

“I suppose he will disappear from the scene for a while to emerge repentant and reinvented … but God help the people who restore him to ministry.”
+++++++++++++++

he can emerge to his family and friends.

do we really ever need to see or hear from him again?

JDV: Harris deserves to be critiqued in the public since he sought the public eye and made money from his enterprise.
The public deserves to know that his silly theology and rules didn’t even help him although he vowed his *rules* would make for wonderful marriages.”

Valid points for those eager to accuse you and commentators of “bashing” and “piling on” by discussing it. We need to have hard looks at erroneous and questionable practices within professed Christianity, those foisting them, and the methods employed.

My heart is aching, as this is like the final nail in the coffin of all that we once embraced as a family. I wish Harris no ill, but I cannot simply overlook the enormous swath of destruction his teaching left in the lives of many I know and love. Parents who over-controlled their children’s lives, innocent kids who married people they hardly knew, and more, all based on the complementarian/courtship model exemplified in Calvinism and Harris’ IKDG.

I feel guilt as well as sorrow and anger. How could we have been so stupid? How were we, relatively intelligent people, taken in by all this? I mention this only because it seems to parallel the abuse and suffering that has happened throughout the evangelical church. And I do not think it was accidental.

We were in the first tier of homeschooling, and initially there was very little material available. We mostly pieced together our own plan, and emphasized real life experiences and lots of book reading. But as homeschooling took off, it was like the vultures descended. Homeschooling conventions introduced thousands to the likes of Harris, Doug Wilson, Douggie Phillips, etc., all to their detriment. Calvinism seemed to be the common thread amongst all of these vultures. (For those who wonder why we feel the need to warn others so vocally about Calvinism – we have seen how it is presented one way, then quietly destroys your family and life.)

I cannot help but suspect that these vultures were no different than the Hybels’,Driscoll’s, MacDonald’s, etc. – false teachers preying upon naive, concerned believers who were fed on the culture wars from every christian book, article and radio program. All this fear-mongering made us ripe for the ‘saviors’ who would tell us how to do marriage, church and everything else. ‘Do this and live’- expropriating the words of life from the only one who can truly say them. And they laughed all the way to the bank.

I am grieving, for myself, my precious children and so many who were taken in by our naive belief that anyone with the label ‘christian’ slapped on must be trustworthy. I have learned my lesson the hard way.

TS00,

Were you also raised in the same kind of culture? I was. But I was privy to a lot of what happened behind closed doors. So much hypocrisy and pretending to be pure, but many worse than the “world” they tried to keep us out of. That is what helped me keep my kids out of it because learned not to trust the actual morality of the leaders or the kids who believed in the leaders just because they taught it or said they believed in it themselves. I have also known a lot of people from dysfunctional non-Christian homes who become fundamentalist strict Christian parents because the sound of a “fix” to what they were raised in lures them into cultish parenting.

Rain Girl,

That is one heck of an interview.

What you said about Elizabeth Elliott is key. I consider her the be the single greatest ingredient in the emergence of Purity Culture.

I derive this thinking after reading Journals of Jim Elliott. (edited by Elizabeth Elliott)

I was profoundly surprised reading it for the first time recently. I’m curious what your thoughts about her are?

https://mobile.twitter.com/thouarttheman/status/1152599284241641477

Interesting claim Josh made.

elastigirl: do we really ever need to see or hear from him again?

Many in Christendom asked the same thing about Driscoll and Tullian, but their groupies kept chanting for their return. I suspect Harris’ followers will do the same. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Max: Striking resemblance … it must be the beard.

There is the beard, but it’s mainly the hair.

Nick Bulbeck: There is the beard, but it’s mainly the hair.

Has he become a Nickist?!?

This is so sad to me. I honestly don’t know why Josh and Shannon would publicly announce this on social media. What really strikes me is what was not said- nothing about their faith or Jesus was mentioned. Their post was so secular. If you look at Josh’s Instagram, its the same. I don’t know where they are at spiritually, but for those of you who are concerned that he will reinvent himself and return to the pulpit, I doubt it. He took a beating at CLC at the end before he left- I witnessed it. He’s done with ministry and is moving on with his new business.

Eric Rasmusen: We should, however, hope to see Christian leaders condemn this separation and call for explanation or reconciliation. I hope to see it–but I don’t expect to see it, alas.

Up until this blog I never heard of Harris or the purity fad. But I considered myself Anglican back then so it was before my time as an evangelical…mind you I never did go for adult baptism so saying I was ever a true evangelical is a stretch.

Still while Harris’ theology, philosophy and perhaps hypocrisy is fair game, him and his wife may reconcile or may not.

Either way, an explanation or reconciliation is not a requirement.

Both have freedom of association and it’s up to them to define their relationship.

Harris will no doubt be back after a “season” (ie when the kerfufel blows over) and will find followers.

If people will follow Driscoll or Tullian or Jmac n cheese, they’ll follow this guy.

After all, he looks like Nick

Steve240: Josh was the one Sovereign Grace Leader who declared the exposure of C.J.Mahaney’s sin and hypocrisy a public “spanking” and I am sure the pushback Josh received for especially the other leaders was hard on both Josh and Shannon. Josh also seemed to be the one leader who believed that standards and rules should apply to C.J. just like they had to others and again received push back.

There is nothing like an experience like that to open your eyes that not everyone in the church is sincere. People have all sorts of motives for joining and being active in churches.

I, too, would not be surprised if his father pushed a lot of this on him. My husband and I only heard Gregg Harris speak once, back in the very early days, when we were homeschooling, and we saw red flags. He struck me as a hard driving, controlling person with surprisingly detailed ideas of what everyone should be doing. My husband, who was a very congenial guy who got along with everyone (and, also, an excellent judge of character), tried to talk with him one-on-one during intermission and it was strange and uncomfortable. Not sure how to describe it but it left us both with misgivings, so, thankfully, we didn’t continue with that whole scene. However, so much of this stuff crept into home schooling groups, churches, and youth groups that I think all of us evangelicals got some kind of a dose of it. I know my kids’ youth groups all parroted at least some of the purity ideas.

The idea crept in through so many avenues in those days that being a Christian was all about isolating yourself from the world and doing everything “right” in order to inoculate your family from all possible bad outcomes. People started to see parenting as preventing your kids from making any sort of mistakes, making sure they did everything right and were perfect, as if kids had to come to God through being sinless. I remember asking myself, why, if we all came to faith in Christ through recognizing our own sin and accepting his gift of salvation, had we come to believe that kids came to him through being perfect? It was like Christianity had come to a fork in the road that was very subtly different at first but it has kept digressing further over the years since.

singleman: Purity culture may be seriously wounded but I doubt it will give up without a fight, at least if this article published at Pulpit and Pen is any indication.

When you realize the bus is going the wrong way, all you can do is get off and let it go. If enough people get off, the bus will stop, but as long as there are people who want to live under law, the purity culture will keep going with that segment of the population.

Jack: Harris will no doubt be back after a “season” (ie when the kerfufel blows over) and will find followers.

There are a whole lot of people out there that have had the purity culture blow up in their faces, who have stepped away from church and even the faith, so I would guess that if he decides to speak on that side of his experience, he may have an audience. However, bearing the responsibility of being one of the main voices that caused all of this pain for people sets him off by himself. My hope is that he just lives his life and pursues honesty and authenticity, wherever that leads.

Doubtful,

“If any one of us pew sitters had announced separating from our spouse in Harris’s SGM….we would have been put under church discipline or ex communicated….unless you were related to a pastor in good standing with CJ.”
+++++++++++++++++

have they told their stories? has anyone compiled their stories?

(sorry if this a naive question)

seems like now would be a relevant time to broadcast these stories. to further shine a light on the reality of it all, and the consequences (or special treatment instead).

it would further shine a light on the abuses of christian authoritarian leadership.

in case some just aren’t getting it.

Rain Girl,

Agree, & didn’t see you had already shared this link!

Divorce Minister: They conclude the article you [Singleman] share saying, “First, Harris denounced purity culture. Then, Harris divorced. Learn the lesson, and learn it well.”

I think the lesson to learn well here is that there are actors in the christian marketplace who don’t even feel the need to bother hiding the fact that they’re taking isolated splinters of a very complex story totally out of context and arbitrarily linking them together.

There are twisters and deceivers selling books to christians.

Friend: Eric Rasmusen: Maybe there is good reason for the separation, but I doubt it, and he should be heavily ridiculed if he refuses to explain. … that he is a hypocrite and ungodly (as seems to be the case) does not mean that his book was a bad one. I haven’t read it, so I don’t know.

Format issues… the above is Eric Rasmusen’s text.

I dont believe anyone should be ridiculed for a personal failure that contradicts their long standing core beliefs.

We are a product of our environment and forefathers. One of Harris’s is CJ Mahaney. I would presume a lifetime of self-evaluation could easily be in Harris’s future. That certainly is the case for me.

Harris would not have been in a position to decide if his early doctrines were flawed.

Ken F (aka Tweed): Has he become a Nickist?!?

There may be hope for him yet, in that case.

Julie Anne: Josh Harris, a narcissist?I don’t think so. Narcissists don’t apologize, and they certainly don’t admit they were wrong. You are painting an entirely different picture of Josh Harris from what I know of him and his family and many acquaintances who know him.

Well said.

elastigirl,

http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/

Max: I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt and wish him and his family the best going forward.

Thank you. I would be surprised if we ever see Josh in the pulpit again. I do not believe the podcast would be for him to get a following. To me, it sounds like an opportunity for him and others to do talk about the harm they’ve gone through in the church. I may be wrong, but that is the sense that I am picking up.

Eric Rasmusen: Mr. Harris needs to say more. He put himself in the public eye as an explainer of marriage. Maybe there is good reason for the separation, but I doubt it, and he should be heavily ridiculed if he refuses to explain.

Ouch! No one deserves to be ridiculed.

Julie Anne: No one deserves to be ridiculed.

Most people don’t, but what about the hypocrite and the fraudster once their schemes are revealed? I am speaking generally; I do not know about Joshua Harris except that there is a prima facie case for hypocrisy. Ridicule is a particular form of criticism, combining humor with rebuke. What is wrong with it, compared to simple condemnation, if the subject of ridicule does deserve condemnation?

The SBC and neo Calvinism, the paint job my be shiny and new. But, there is a whole lot of bondo under it.

Julie Anne: I’m reading these comments here and I think I need to do another post. There is such a wide range of emotions and thoughts.

Yes. I think more understanding is needed of what it would have been like for him to grow up as he did and now, in his 40’s, to begin to deconstruct from everything he built his life on. It’s very sad that he and his wife are separating, but you have to wonder if they are trying to finally discover who they really are for the first time without the burdens of religious expectations.

As a reformed person myself…. not necessarily “neo-Cal”, it is tough to see this. Ten years ago, I would have said I had a lot of respect for the SGM crowd. On the outside, it looked like they had a lot of things right.

What I really think is that C.J. was simply a good marketer. He understood that being reformed and charismatic was a good niche and the focus on worship provided the perfect blend to attract people that were getting bored with their churches. I never really liked his teaching but thought he was sincere. What a train wreck it has all become. I cannot wrap my brain around it.

I am thoroughly reformed and complimentarian…. and I never once viewed my theological convictions as a means to hurt others or apply some of the twisted and sick practices that we read about on this blog.

What I am sorry for, is the pride I exuded over the years. It does pain me to see leaders in my “camp” turn out to be frauds. There is no other word for it. I do enjoy reading the blog and the comments here. These things need to be exposed.

As far as Josh goes, I cannot help but to feel sad about it. In the end, God will be the perfect judge of Josh and Shannon. We will probably never know the whole truth or what Josh might have covered up. I really wish he would set the record straight and I believe it would be right for him to do that. I cannot think of a single text or biblical principle that prohibits Josh from completing his apology and explain what happened behind closed doors concerning those abuses of power and other people’s money.

Anyway…. thanks for the good research that goes into this blog. Praying for revival.

Max: “True Love Waits” was a popular teaching in SBC youth groups in the 1970s.

And all the way into the 1990s. A friend of mine (sadly gone nearly 20 years now) came up with a hysterical but very mocking parody of “True Love Waits.” Bill had been raised in a Southern Baptist church, but as an adult had attended a Unitarian church until squabbles over a $50K bequest irritated him and he went back to the Baptist church.

Eric Rasmusen: Maybe there is good reason for the separation, but I doubt it, and he should be heavily ridiculed if he refuses to explain.

Do you think he is enduring the breakup of his family, his life, and the scorn of untold numbers of people on a lark? Just for the heck of it? Who decides if he has “a good reason” or not? Do we even know if this was his decision?

I guess I’m not following your reasoning. Why should he be heavily ridiculed? I think if he was still pushing the purity stuff and hiding the fact that it was failing in his own life he would deserve ridicule, but I think he’s made it clear he has realized it was a mistake. Many people who followed the purity teachings went into ill-advised marriages with people they were unsuited to and those marriages have failed; maybe he is also a casualty. Maybe there’s a whole lot more he could say that he isn’t free to, I don’t know. I guess I have seen enough people make a mistake in a first marriage and recover that I don’t see it as the unpardonable sin.

TS00,

A while ago, you mentioned the book “Hints on Child Training” by H. Clay Trumbull. I’m 2/3 of the way through, and finding it so helpful, thank you.

Reading this post, and your comment, reminded me of something I’d recently read in the book and made a deep impression:

“The first lesson in the training of a child’s faith is the lesson that he is to have faith in God. Many a child is told to have faith in the power of prayer, or faith in the value of good conduct, without being shown that his faith should rest wholly and absolutely on God. He is told that he can hope to have whatever he prays for; and that if he is a good boy he can expect a blessing, while if he is a bad boy he cannot expect to be blessed. With this training the child’s faith is drawn away from God, and is led to rest in his personal conduct; whereas his faith ought to be trained to rest on the God to whom he prays, and in loving obedience to whom he strives to be good.”

Eli: As if God is a vending machine who owes us!

Only in Magick and Sorcery.

TS00,

My cousin’s home church organization was involved early with the homeschool movement. Was it a cross denominational movement?

JDV: Here’s an idea when you do feel like looking at what went wrong etc. How about considering the concept of not writing a book with a suggested lifestyle to-do list for others? How about serving and learning before lecturing? The amateur hour book club culture is toxic, and the fingers of blame never seem to rest long enough on people,who should be saying no or closing their mouths?

No doubt, but his dad made him write the book. I’m pretty sure he even says that in the book.

I get why some people want Josh to go public with the reasons behind the separation announcement. But wouldn’t that be repeating history? He is in unknown territory, and it’s better that he behave like he is in unknown territory than try to nail everything down for public consumption. Let them work it out, and 10-20 years from now, then maybe they will have something sensible to say about what is going on right now.

OutThere: I get why some people want Josh to go public with the reasons behind the separation announcement. But wouldn’t that be repeating history? He is in unknown territory…

I think you’re right.

https://familylaw.lss.bc.ca/separation-divorce/getting-divorce/divorce

“in British Columbia…If you and your spouse have lived apart for one year, you can get a divorce.”

“You can also get a divorce [for adultery or physical or mental cruelty]…But if you want a divorce for these reasons, you have to prove in court they happened. Most people just wait a year.”

Rain Girl: He says his views for that book were heavily influenced by Elizabeth Elliot’s “Passion and Purity,” a book given to him by his mother.

Growing up I had only known about Elizabeth Elliot as the wife of the murdered missionary and I later only heard about other people talk about how she was speaking here or there. I never paid attention to what she said until my daughter’s SGM boyfriend brought me Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood compiled by the leaders he had been raised to worship. Funny how those leaders allow women a place among their teachings as long those women only tell other women how subservient they must be. It was all I could do not to fume in rage at him in my house after reading what Grudem allowed Elliot to write. I am telling you, no one who has studied the Bible in context can possibly be in their right mind and has any daughters and believes that Elliot taught sound doctrine to them. I sure hope that Harris continues to deprogram his brain and think for himself. And that is basically what I did scream at my daughter’s boyfriend over the phone one day because he kept trying to take authority away from me, in my own house mind you. While he showed great respect for his own mother (at least in her presence), I was “just” a woman it seemed. He was only 23 and at one time told me he had the gift of leadership! Another time I yelled at him “you are 23, be a man, and start thinking for yourself! I had to yell because he would not take a breath and let me speak. Hey, I never would have said that to any guy if I thought there was still hope to get through with nice talk.

Anyway, here is just one of Elliott’s written opinions in RBMW that made and still makes me angry:
“The gentle and quiet spirit of which Peter speaks, calling it “of great worth in God’s
sight” (1 Peter 3:4), is the true femininity, which found its epitome in Mary, the
willingness to be only a vessel, hidden, unknown, except as Somebody’s mother. This is
the true mother-spirit, true maternity, so absent, it seems to me, in all the annals of
feminism. “The holier a woman is,” wrote Leon Bloy, “the more she is a woman.”

George,

i appreciate your sincere and heartfelt comment.

“I am thoroughly reformed and complimentarian….”

–….and you’ve got guts to admit that here.

“and I never once viewed my theological convictions as a means to hurt others or apply some of the twisted and sick practices that we read about on this blog”

–and i think you’re an awesome champ for that.

perhaps sometime we can discuss how equality is as equality does.

cute pink shackles studded with rhinestones are still shackles.

pastel duct tape printed with bunnies on it that one puts over their own mouth is no different than the silver duct tape that an abductor puts on his hostage’s mouth.

With what I can gather from just a cursory over view of Harris’s former shtick, a lot of it’s just repackaged Voddie Baucham stuff.

Anybody else see the similarity?

Sad. He kissed Covenant Life Church goodbye. Now he’s kissing his wife goodbye.

SiteSeer: I don’t think people realize how much tension is put on children when their parents are trapped in an unhappy relationship. I know, for me, when my parents divorced it was just a huge relief, like a weight was lifted.

It was the same for me. When my dad moved out and my parents filed for divorce, it was a huge relief. They had fought most of my life and to have that tension gone, to not be caught in the middle, used as a tool of retaliation, was huge.

elastigirl: it’s taking years and years of no-church to dry it all out.

I went into Hobby Lobby once and had a panic attic (the christian music they pipe in). jettisoned the store, having to take deep breaths, trying to stay calm.

This is a great analogy.

I can’t listen to a lot of recorded ‘Christian’ music, and only a few people who do the live thing at church – the place I’m going has 4 teams that rotate. I enjoy two of them and avoid the other two – I believe it has to do with their attitude on how they approach ‘leading worship,’ and the songs they choose…

As to panic attacks, I get that, too. I’ve had to leave places a few times to ‘get some air.’

Max: When someone approaches God with his intellect, rather than his spirit, he might end up with some theological flavor of religion rather than a relationship with Jesus …

That is it, in a nutshell.

Wild Honey,

Thanks for sharing that. It’s been years since I read it, but it is truly one of the best books I have ever read. I might have to locate it and read it again. I recommend it to all new parents who ask for advice.

Max,

These people do not understand the heart of God. They are modern day Pharisees, judging everyone according to their own extra-biblical standards and condemning all who fall short.

What did God do in the face of an entire race of beings falling short of his ideal? He made the ultimate sacrifice, to show love, mercy and a second chance. Which is why I always say that Calvinism is entirely anti-Christ and anti-God. They worship and model an entirely different God, and their theology looks nothing like the living Savior. Sorry if that’s picking on them – but their secretive attempt to takeover all of Christendom earns them the calling out, in order to warn those who have not yet seen them for what they are.

Muff Potter: With what I can gather from just a cursory over view of Harris’s former shtick, a lot of it’s just repackaged Voddie Baucham stuff.

Anybody else see the similarity?

Those of us unafraid of being called conspiracicts would suggest that there will always arise new tools to push the same old lies. Whether or not there is a human organization behind this, I cannot say, but I do believe the enemy of our souls will always find willing dupes to peddle his baloney.

Nathan Priddis: My take-away-
-Elizabeth Elliott relived her ideal life vicariously through participants in the Purity Movement.
-Just as Gothard lived his fantasies through his related ministries.
-Neither envisioned life existed in reality, and therefore explained why neither can be found.
-Both where highly sexual.

Would be interested in your unpacking of this Nathan – I get the 3rd point, because she came across as strangely otherworldly figure in many of her writings.

Eric Rasmusen: What is wrong with it, compared to simple condemnation, if the subject of ridicule does deserve condemnation?

What’s wrong with it? It’s rude and unnecessary. Did Christ ridicule people?

George: What I really think is that C.J. was simply a good marketer. He understood that being reformed and charismatic was a good niche

I’ve seen this combination of “reformed and charismatic” mentioned a few times now, & it may be a dumb question but I need to understand what it means. I assume it doesn’t refer to tongues speaking, as most strict Reformed people I encounter tend to be cessationist? Is charismatic used in the secular sense, ie a “charismatic leader”? Or something else?
Sorry if this is off topic…

SH: Is charismatic used in the secular sense, ie a “charismatic leader”? Or something else?

It’s charismatic in the Pentecostal sense. See: https://network.crcna.org/blog/what-reformed-charismatic

Nick Bulbeck: … a large swathe of the small-c charismatic scene in the UK hates and despises the intellect, and despises intellectuals likewise.

One should not be so spiritually minded that his brain falls out … so heavenly minded that he is of no earthly use. There is nothing wrong with being an intellectual churchman, unless one relies only on his intellect to attempt to understand the things of God rather than seeking the Holy Spirit to teach him truth.

elastigirl,

i think women who come out of patriarchal / complementarian existence would do well to take a martial arts class where you have to yell from the ferocious depths of your being.

(everyone has it in them)

i’m thinking that can only help artistic expression. shaking off the barriers and finding access to that part of oneself.

(of course in martial arts once you find that part of yourself you learn to discipline it. by your knowledge and skill — not by what the male figures in your life decide)

Ray,

i watched a video of hers that someone linked to. not sure of the context of the song, and maybe restrained and controlled was fitting.

her artistic expression would soar and roar like a Santa Ana wind if she could find her fury and give it full expression. and then just like in martial arts, you moderate it for the context. but the deep well is open, and you draw from it.

i’m being totally presumptuous here.

i just think art that is safe is waiting to be set free. the artist needs deep access to all of him or herself and to be able to express it from the bottom of the soul. metered out as he/she sees fit.

….pardon me

TS00,

Denim skirts, that describes my Aunt and my two cousin’s. 🙂

Ray,

i just read “fall apart”. very candid, transparent.

my previous comment was too presumptuous for its own good.

my working hypothesis is that christian music can’t help but be restrained and hold back inspiration that wants to roar in & blow the lid off.

christian culture is a minefield of religious rules and offenses. if a musician wants to sell, they have to hold back. well, christian culture is all about holding back anyway, and staying in your box that others decide for you.

yes, i’m full of opinion tonight.

Thersites: Christ’s description of Herod as a fox would fit my description of mocking or ridicule.

Ok, point taken. I, however, do not agree with ridiculing Josh knowing what I know about his history. You don’t beat someone when they are already down.

Julie Anne: Ok, point taken. I, however, do not agree with ridiculing Josh knowing what I know about his history. You don’t beat someone when they are already down.

Thank you, I agree that Joshua Harris deserves some mercy. In keeping with that, let’s stipulate that Harris is not Herod.

Friend: let’s stipulate that Harris is not Herod

Agreed on mercy, your “Harris is not Herod” is a nice touch, both funny and serious.

chris s: Would be interested in your unpacking of this Nathan – I get the 3rd point, because she came across as strangely otherworldly figure in many of her writings.

About point three-
Jim and Elizabeth never lived as man and wife for one minute in the normal world.

Jim did temporary teaching in a public school.(real world) I think he even mentioned post-college criticism for lack vocational direction. However, this was while he still lived at home. EE would not be representative of a normal N.American Evangelical woman.

Its kinda late, so let me pick just my last point. If your not tired of the thread you can always reply.

-Four
Both Gothard and and EE have sex as a prominate feature of their ideologies. Both ideologies strike me as frozen in time. BG’s is a fundamentalist junior high boy, in 1950’s Sunday school setting. Its a juvenile sexuality that developes because of perceived bible knowledge. But Its Fundamentslist. Sex is sin. How does a boy deal with the inner turmoil?

Gothard ages, but the fantasy never does, and there is always a fresh crop of Sunday School girls.

The Journals editting notes begin circa 46-47. She is a nerdy idealistic missionary girl. She falls in love soon after entering college. But the romantic ideal never happens as envisioned. She instead endured unrealised desires, seperation and uncertainty.

Decades later, she preaches a idealistic romantic ideology. Somehow, if you follow the ideology, you will get a blessed outcone. But life does not work like that. Nor can Elliot go back, she’s not eighteen anymore and Jim will never be her ideal. After all, he’s dead.

So, she creates an idealistic and highly spiritual world.

Nick Bulbeck: I realise you’re probably not talking about the same thing, but a large swathe of the small-c charismatic scene in the UK hates and despises the intellect, and despises intellectuals likewise. An autistic person like me is always considered to be “working it out in my intellect” and, thus, a second class christian who is incapable of relating to God. There are several practical outworkings of my being a second-class christian:

 I’m incapable of falling over when an anointed person with superpowers prays for me
 I believe a person making silly noises may not, necessarily, be praying in tongues
 I believe a person making outrageous claims may not, necessarily, be an apostle or prophet

Stuff like that.

I believe you are describing the road I have traveled! I might be a Nickist. 😉

Nathan Priddis: Both Gothard and and EE have sex as a prominate feature of their ideologies. Both ideologies strike me as frozen in time. BG’s is a fundamentalist junior high boy, in 1950’s Sunday school setting. Its a juvenile sexuality that developes because of perceived bible knowledge. But Its Fundamentslist. Sex is sin. How does a boy deal with the inner turmoil?

Thanks Nathan – had thought of EE’s thinking as a strange abnegation of sex because of the element of unrealised desire – though I think there’s a lot of sense in what you say, because of the way in which the 50s become preserved in aspic in her books.

SiteSeer: I believe you are describing the road I have traveled! I might be a Nickist.

Yay!

If Nickism were an ordinary ideology, the obvious next step would be to split into factions. Fortunately, it isn’t!

ishy: Now, when I see people saying, “They made it up” or “It’s not really a big deal”, I too wonder if they are perpetrators or enablers of perpetrators.

In most contexts, they’re enables of the abuse culture whether they realise it or not.

I have no direct experience of being in an environment that turned out to be a haven for a sexual predator (this is not to say I can’t possibly ever have been conned by a sexual predator). I do have experience of spiritually abusive organised religion, though. Here in the UK it’s more commonly known as “heavy shepherding”, but it refers to the same thing: bullying, authoritarianism, coercive micro-management, and so on. It was a minority, but persistent, feature of the house church movement here in the 1980’s.

I don’t think many people woke up one morning and thought, I think I’ll become a “heavy shepherding”-style leader today. As far as I say, most people got sucked into that kind of environment by stealth and/or self-deception.

I also just want to say how glad I was just a hair too old for my mom, or youth ministers, or churches of my teenage years, to ever read this book and think it was a good idea.

singleman: Purity culture may be seriously wounded but I doubt it will give up without a fight, at least if this article published at Pulpit and Pen is any indication.

The article author is listed as ‘news division’ lol. I didn’t realize pulpit and pen considered themselves news.

This doesn’t sound like ‘news’:

“Christians grew more skeptical of Harris when, after his resignation from Covenant Life, Harris began to cast shade upon the so-called “purity movement” and apologize for inadvertently hurting people.”

“Christians”? I think many thought these were all good healthy moves that didn’t go far enough. And wow, they took a chance to take a shot at Rachel Evans too. these are not nice people. Also

First, Harris denounced purity culture. Then, Harris divorced. Learn the lesson, and learn it well.

Imagine being this stupid, that this is the lesson you took.

Eric Rasmusen: Ridicule is a particular form of criticism, combining humor with rebuke.

A sick form of church discipline, if you ask me. Where’s the love of Christ in that?

SiteSeer: I disagree on #4 above. When a couple separate, it doesn’t automatically follow that either one has given up responsibility to their children. Most divorced people I know continue to be involved in their children’s lives and take it very seriously.

Indeed. I thought that was unfair. We don’t know what’s going on in their marriage, it could be Shannon wants the divorce honestly. Most men I know are involved fathers after divorce.

Eli: “Emotional chastity” is something that C.S. Lewis in The Four Loves says is much closer to hell than heaven – it’s all about safety first, not letting your heart be broken for love’s sake.

This is so important to me. It also goes alone with Brene Brown’s advice about embracing vulnerability. Lesson’s I’ve definitely had to learn.

OutThere: I get why some people want Josh to go public with the reasons behind the separation announcement.

I don’t aside from curiosity. But then I am a reasonably private person about these things.

dee,

Exactly…. I grew up in a GARBC fundy background, and they had their own set of “rules”, some of which overlap with the currently discussed “rules”, but I am sure the GARBC had their own “rules” as well ( to be honest, I do not want waste my time comparing “rules”)
So, who is more pious? Those that follow the GARBC rules of old, those currently debated, or maybe the “5 marks rules”? Oh, I forgot, I am sure Jonny Mac has his own rules as well!

Muff Potter: If more rapists got their clocks cleaned by women skilled with their hands and voices as weapons, it would give predatory men pause.

Sorry. But I think you’re projecting how you would react to a situation when the brain of the other person is wired totally different from yours. While they may not go after someone who looks like a football linkbacker getting beaten up by a possible victim is about the same as a few years of jail and that doesn’t seem to slow a lot of them down even after getting out of jail.

Jeffrey Chalmers,

“So, who is more pious? Those that follow the GARBC rules of old, those currently debated, or maybe the “5 marks rules”? Oh, I forgot, I am sure Jonny Mac has his own rules as well!”
++++++++++++++++++++

it’s ridiculous. and each set of rules is deemed “biblical”. crimany, change churches and you get a different biblical.

they may be slight differences, but these slight differences are powerful enough to make you spiritual enemy #1 if you trip the invisible wires.

ishy: Now, when I see people saying, “They made it up” or “It’s not really a big deal”, I too wonder if they are perpetrators or enablers of perpetrators.

I think many are perpetrators and others have listened to their buddies claiming someone ‘made it all up’ and taking that as truth. It’s always a friend of a friend who had somebody ‘lie’ about them, like how do you know? You don’t. Odds are you’ve simply believed a lie and discounted the truth.

elastigirl:
Ray,

christian culture is a minefield of religious rules and offenses.if a musician wants to sell, they have to hold back.well, christian culture is all about holding back anyway, and staying in your box that others decide for you.

Throw the homeschool culture on top of that. Homeschooling can be a fine way to educate, but it attracts the control freaks. Makes it hard to stay sane when you are caught between the world on one side and hypercontrolling homeschoolers on the other.

elastigirl: my working hypothesis is that christian music can’t help but be restrained and hold back inspiration that wants to roar in & blow the lid off.

Not just music.
Same thing holds for my passion of F&SF:
https://alanloewen.blogspot.com/2016/09/guest-editorial-why-is-christian.html

christian culture is a minefield of religious rules and offenses. if a musician wants to sell, they have to hold back. well, christian culture is all about holding back anyway, and staying in your box that others decide for you.

Which is why when ChristianFIc & Lost Genre Guild was active, I was very vocal about “going mainstream”. When I was writing, I was striving for the pages of Sixties Analog beside the likes of Poul Anderson & H Beam Piper, not the shelves of a Jesus Junk store beside Left Behind and bonnet romances.

P.S. A couple years ago, I DID get one of my SF pieces in a small-press anthology beside a reprint of one of Anderson’s!

Max: The pursuit of holiness is a lost message in much of the American church.

So they substitute bean-counting Purity instead.

Divorce Minister,

So,I had a similar experience with a heavy sheparding legalistic church run by my father-in-law. Similar in structure to SGM ministries and touting much the same garbage. I came out of it and realized it boils down to a few simple yet not necessarily easy concepts in Christian thought and practice of faith and mostly worldview and authorities in the church ( and life). Many churches emphasize the old testament law or the system of rules and actions or “correct” responses to the rules ie. Purity movement. This is basically just a continuation of what the church leaders during the time of Christ we’re doing. The only fruit of such a wrong headed system of faith will be hypocrisy born of spiritual pride. Christ calls us to follow Him and his voice. His word makes it clear that we are inately lost and in need of a Good Shepard.(Him). The entirety of the law ever being written was to show the Israelites and the world that no one but God alone can fulfill the purity standards he requires! Even our good works r like filthy rags. No set of rules or adherance to those rules ever sanctified anyone. We cannot sanctify ourselves. The NEW testament is our salvation.God through the blood (life) of His ONLY Son has written a new law on our hearts. We can now hear directly from His throne room! Doesn’t matter if you are a man woman or child. We are no longer under the law.or any law other than the law of love IN Christ Jesus. Here’s an analogy… If you own a car and it’s getting on in age and has lots of problems getting you to where you need to go…and someone sees your need and meets your need by purchasing a brand new car for you. Do you continue driving around the old one while claiming you are using the new one? Well? God is calling us to throw the old one in the dump and get in the new one,learn all the new ways that it functions and operate it instead. The old covenant is just that…OLD…toss it out and get to know the new covenant between God and man…mainly His son Jesus. Work on getting to know him and his word and through time spent with him in prayer,fasting,singing His praises..serving others,holding yourself accountable to others, confession of sins to one another,bearing each other’s burdens.etc. Church leaders should place themselves and their “authority” as secondary to the needs of Christ’s sheep and be the servants of all as Christ called us all to do. And remind themselves of this fact on a daily basis.We are a nation of preists! We are all equals…no matter our “positions or titles”.

Daisy: But they also play a role in why so many who would like to get married either don’t marry at all, or not until later than they hoped or expected.

Like kissing marriage goodbye?

https://ikdg.wordpress.com/2009/08/14/does-kissing-dating-goodbye-lead-to-kissing-marriage-goodbye/

Daisy,

I think there are people who take things more seriously/to heart than others and they tend to be the ones who don’t do well. But that’s just a theory.

The problem with the mantra of Harris and so many is the binary thinking that infects the mind of the Pharisee. The thinking goes something like this: since the culture is corrupt and young people are too often treating sex as pure recreation and devaluing it as well as commitment (propositions I agree with, BTW), the culture must then have it all wrong in every aspect. Dating must be evil and all physical contact must be wrong. It amazes me that these people, allegedly biblically literate, could read the Bible and how Jesus singled out the Pharisees for particular condemnation, and then not see in themselves that same thing Jesus was condemning.

My wife and I struggled with our physical relationship like many people do before marriage, but we worked through it together and we sure didn’t think there was any silver bullet that could guarantee a great marriage. 30 years of marriage and many children later, still struggling, just with other things, but still absolutely in love. Would’ve been harder to make it, though, if we’d been sold a bunch of bogus garbage like “I Kissed Dating Good-bye.” We’d been married several years before that trite bit of garbage came out. I put it in the same category as the Ezzos and Pearls: written by the ignorant for the ignorant.

Max: Therein lies a major problem within New Calvinism.Many of these preacher-boys were raised with some sort of toxic upbringing which retarded their spiritual growth and then became unfortunate enough to become indoctrinated into reformed theology with its new & improved way of doing church.It’s increasingly clear that many of them chose to “go” into ministry, rather than “called” into ministry, in order to gain a pulpit to release their confusion into the pew.Harris has always been trying to find himself … Good Lord! When will the institutional church tire of stunted leaders in the pulpit that don’t know who they are in Christ!We need more men of God, not preacher-boys … God, send us some!

This describes every single Neocalvinist church leader I have ever known. While my experience is anecdotal, there is not a single exception—and I’ve known or associated with more than a few neocal leaders. If you ever get to know one, ask them about their relationships with their dads sometimes. My agnostic dad who never even said a table prayer was a dream by comparison with all the fathers of every single neocal leader I’ve ever known; they all had fathers who were some combo of: abusive/alcoholic/violent/sadistic/sexually deviant/personality-disordered. Every. Single. One.

Headless Unicorn Guy,
P.S. The Purity Culture trope I most internalized was a severe Virgin/Whore Dichotomy.

Atop a pre-existing inability to trust in general, this proved fatal to any hope of relationship.

ishy: Lea: I think there are people who take things more seriously/to heart than others and they tend to be the ones who don’t do well. But that’s just a theory.

Complementarianism makes for some pretty entitled men, though. And Barna has said that there are more single women in churches than single men. So I think the odds are just against a lot of women.

I don’t disagree at all with this. I was thinking more in general I guess? Not just in church but they take the churches concepts too seriously and then even when they ditch some things they have trouble adjusting totally…maybe I’m partly thinking of myself years ago even though I never got caught up in most of this.

Law Prof,

Yeah, many New Calvinist “lead pastors” are a mess. Those I have known had abusive fathers, domineering mothers, bad dating experiences in high school/college, and/or other toxic relationships in their past that they brought unresolved to the pulpit. Their pulpits provide them an opportunity to control others, rather than being controlled. It’s such a sad movement for a lot of reasons. Give them a 9Marks handbook on how to discipline and they go wild when given the opportunity.

Eric Rasmusen:
The lastarticle linked to in the post is good: http://www.divorceminister.com/joshua-harris-separation-announcement-kissing-ordination-goodbye/Mr. Harris needs to say more. He put himself in the public eye as an explainer of marriage. Maybe there is good reason for the separation, but I doubt it, and he should be heavily ridiculed if he refuses to explain. At the same time, that he is a hypocrite and ungodly (as seems to be the case) does not mean that his book was a bad one. I haven’t read it, so I don’t know. But the value of someone’s ideas doesn’t depend on their personal conduct, and Christians, especially, should not be surprised to find sin, even gross sin in the most unlikely places.We should, however, hope to see Christian leaders condemn this separation and call for explanation or reconciliation. I hope to see it–but I don’t expect to see it, alas.

I can attest: the book is a bad one. Actually, both books are bad, full of faulty application of theology that confidently promised strong, happy marriages and left human ruin in their wake.

But maybe you might agree with his misapplied theology, from the rest of what you said. It sounds awfully demanding. Even phariseeical. Why does the churchian world get to judge whether they have a church-approved reason to separate, to demand explanation and, worse, demand that they stay together for appearances’ sake—does it get any more hypocritical than that?—if their excuse doesn’t meet with your approval?

It’s okay. You don’t have to expel them from your church. Sounds like they’ve already left behind the heavy burdens that the Pharisees tie onto the people yet are unwilling themselves to bear.

Sorry if I am misunderstanding your heart in this matter, but the demand for christian leaders to condemn their probably long-contemplated and not-lightly-undertaken separation made me angry.

Doesn’t sound like they’re looking for approval, anyhow. Probably more likely trying to head off mean-spirited gossip and legalistic judging, which I’m sure they’re already too familiar with, considering the culture they escaped.

Patti:
TS00,
I have also known a lot of people from dysfunctional non-Christian homes who become fundamentalist strict Christian parents because the sound of a “fix” to what they were raised in lures them into cultish parenting.

Bingo. That’s how I got sucked in.

SH: I’ve seen this combination of “reformed and charismatic” mentioned a few times now, & it may be a dumb question but I need to understand what it means. I assume it doesn’t refer to tongues speaking, as most strict Reformed people I encounter tend to be cessationist? Is charismatic used in the secular sense, ie a “charismatic leader”? Or something else?
Sorry if this is off topic…

I don’t know about speaking in tongues, but I do know that Gregg Harris’s flavor of reformed charismatic involved “the old paths”—Puritan writings, I think, combined with prophecy. We went to a Households (the denomination that grew out of Gregg Harris’s original church) church a few times, and one of the things they did differently was they had an open microphone at a certain point (I don’t remember exactly when in the proceedings, but it was a regular part of worship). People came up freely during that time to read a scripture passage that moved them in some way, or to give a “Word from the Lord.” They also raised their hands when they prayed and sang, and they sang Hillsong-type music—quite emotional.

Willi Flex: Many churches emphasize the old testament law or the system of rules and actions or “correct” responses to the rules ie. Purity movement. This is basically just a continuation of what the church leaders during the time of Christ we’re doing. The only fruit of such a wrong headed system of faith will be hypocrisy born of spiritual pride. Christ calls us to follow Him and his voice. His word makes it clear that we are inately lost and in need of a Good Shepard.(Him). The entirety of the law ever being written was to show the Israelites and the world that no one but God alone can fulfill the purity standards he requires! Even our good works r like filthy rags. No set of rules or adherance to those rules ever sanctified anyone. We cannot sanctify ourselves.

It almost seems like people read all of that in the Bible and then turn around and come away with the idea “yes, but WE will try HARDER and have BETTER rules.”

I agree with much of what you have written. I’m cautious about the idea of confessing sins to one another, though, and perhaps this is what you also meant, but I thought I’d mention it- I think that when the Bible tells us to confess our sins to one another, it isn’t saying we need to dredge up the private details of our lives and tell other people. I think it is saying to be honest about our shortcomings. In other words, don’t be a hypocrite, putting on a holy public face while you do the very things you speak against in private; when you’ve failed, admit it. Kind of like what Josh Harris has done here, that we’re discussing. The reason I mention this is, I’ve known of a few situations where young believers were convinced they were supposed to share private details of their lives with church leaders and those facts were kept track of and used to control them. It’s a big part of the “manhood” groups. People aren’t always as trustworthy as they appear.

SH: I’ve seen this combination of “reformed and charismatic” mentioned a few times now, & it may be a dumb question but I need to understand what it means. I assume it doesn’t refer to tongues speaking, as most strict Reformed people I encounter tend to be cessationist?

It does indeed refer to holy rollers type stuff. Wayne Grudem was big into the Vineyard movement for a time. CJ Mahaney embraced the ‘Toronto Blessing’, and even took the title of ‘apostle’. These two have really run the gamut, Grudem started out a Presbyterian, has been Baptist and Vineyard and now is in some sort of ‘nondenominational’ Bible church. Mahaney was described as Catholic in the 1970s while leading the ‘Take and Give’ group, which morphed into ‘Gathering of Believers’, then ‘People of Destiny’ (Charismatic emphasis) and finally “Sovereign Grace Ministries” (Calvinist emphasis).

Catherine,

This announcement is sad and has nothing to do with a book – this is the only thing that I’m sure of since I do not personally know the Harris’. I will say that he probably missed something in his youth that he is trying to regain at the cost of his family/children especially will suffer. If I could say one thing to Josh, I suspect you, like Solomon, will search for what you are looking for at the expense of missing years with your children (being emotionally absent is still absent) and find there is nothing new under the sun. The missing experiences youre longing for, you missed when you were single, too bad so sad, now youre a dad…so go home and love your wife and kids the grass is NEVER greener on the other side. How can I say such a thing? I was Josh Harris…God Bless

SiteSeer: I’m cautious about the idea of confessing sins to one another, though, and perhaps this is what you also meant, but I thought I’d mention it- I think that when the Bible tells us to confess our sins to one another, it isn’t saying we need to dredge up the private details of our lives and tell other people. I think it is saying to be honest about our shortcomings. In other words, don’t be a hypocrite, putting on a holy public face while you do the very things you speak against in private; when you’ve failed, admit it.

Excellent point, siteseer. The distortion of this exhortation to not be a hypocrite has been very destructive.

Max: It will just be a matter of time before female believers under oppression within that movement start rising up and sharing their stories about life under the thumb of the new reformers.

I agree. The rumbling can already be heard, as the blinders fall off. Receiving their purpose and joy from raising their children, the day finally arrives when women find themselves left alone in miserable, unfulfilling marriages. I would allege that the ‘no divorce, ever’ creed is very much like the purity creed – it misleads people into thinking that ‘keeping the law’ is enough. But it never is.

Too late they realize that simply being committed to a lifetime marriage does not create a marriage that can last a lifetime. A genuine relationship requires selflessness and effort, and is nearly impossible to grow under the female-diminishing oppressiveness of patriarchy.

staci,

Wow, a lot of presumption here. Are you somehow privy to their personal lives? You know somehow that this is all on Josh? There are two people involved here. They both get to make decisions about their own lives.

And by the way, they’re not you and your wife. They have their own story to write.

Bridget,

Indeed, I see we were thinking along the same lines.

Lea: Jerome: then ‘People of Destiny’ (Charismatic emphasis)
that sounds like a cult for sure

Don’t forget it’s Head Apostle’s HUMBLE self-title.

One thing I have learned is that you do not want to take dating or relationship advice from a group of people (ie conservative / complementarian Christians) who teach you that if you do get married,

That you must adhere to rigid gender roles,
so that if you’re a woman married to a jerk of a man, you have to just stay and endure the abuse.

-And that is how your average Christian counsels married women who are in abusive relationships, so I now feel more than fine in rejecting their dating advice.

I refuse to take relationship advice from people who think I am lesser than men in role, that I must “submit” to a man, even to an abusive one. Nope.

If that’s how you think I should handle an abusive spouse, I am not going to take direction from you on how, who, or when to date.

—correction from post above—
where, for some reason, I typed,

“(I could explain what some of them teachings are, but …)”

~”What some of them thar teachings are…”~

I sound like one of those, “Let’s storm Area 51 and see them aliens” type people.

Should have read something like, “what some of those teachings are…”

But no, I had to sound like a hill-billy.

Lea: I don’t disagree at all with this. I was thinking more in general I guess? Not just in church but they take the churches concepts too seriously and then even when they ditch some things they have trouble adjusting totally…maybe I’m partly thinking of myself years ago even though I never got caught up in most of this.

Like I said above, I was a little older than Josh Harris’ target demo for his IKDB book, but some (or many?) of its ideas were pretty common among Christians in the 1980s.

It was emphasized to me by the Christians I read or bumped into (at least for women, not really sure how much men were hit with this),
that marriage is a very passive undertaking,
that as long as you prayed, waited, and trusted in God, God was in charge, and he would make sure Mr. Right crossed your path. So next to effort was required on your end.

Well, that never happened for me, never got my Mr. Right.

As to the few Christians I heard growing up who said the opposite,
they said you gotta try attending church singles groups to meet a mate, etc – you have to put feet to your faith and not just sit and wait on God

-okay, I tried a bit of that too, (even though I had awful, crippling social anxiety until I hit my 40s, I’m an introver who hates small talk, socializing and getting off my couch).

And even when I tried dating sites in my mid-30s, tried going to churches with singles classes, etc., I remain single.

But passivity is highly encouraged among most Christians in the world o’ getting married, or “how to get married” advice.

I’m now suspecting that there is a lot of human effort involved, that if you want to get married, it’s like trying to get a job…

You have to send out a lot of applications, go on a lot of interviews.
You can’t just sit around and pray, wait, and keep your fingers crossed someone phones you to offer you a position out of the blue.

But then, I don’t know what to make of the Bible verses that say stuff like God acts on behalf of the one who waits on Him,
or all the Bible stories of things like sterile women who cried to God for a baby, and the text says God then permitted them to get pregnant (those ladies didn’t have to do anything other than pray to get the outcome they desired).

There are many examples in the Bible of God helping people who didn’t make a move first, or not make a move at all – maybe because they could not, or they were too distraught.

But in spite of all those biblical examples, I just now suspect if I want to get married,
I have to run out and date all over the place,
and it’s up to me to make it happen,
because if there is a God, he is not doing squat to help singles get married.

And a little side note, here.
It’s taken the church a long time to notice that there are a lot of single Christian women still single into their 30s and older, and these women had wanted to marry at some point.

Prior to that, many Christians didn’t notice, because they were too busy worshipping and bloviating about Married Couples and The Nuclear Family and how Marriage is supposedly ‘Under Attack from Liberals and The Gheys.’

Some of these conservative Christians are deeply troubled that so many Christians are delaying marriage, or nor not marrying at all.

And yet, none of them want to lift a finger to make marriage happen
(please see my post above explaining how I suspect marriage is now a pro-active ordeal,
where it involves human effort-
-advising singles to just “wait, pray, and trust the Lord for a spouse” is a sure-fire recipe for keeping those singles single well into their 40s and older).

If the married Christian people and the churches want marriage to happen more often for singles who want to get married, then you need to take steps to make it happen of your own accord…

Such as, have your church put on more social events where singles can meet and mingle.

Stop it with the attitude that church is only for “worshipping the Lord” (this is sadly a common attitude, even among some single Christians)
(and no, it’s not, there are different reasons for the foundation of the church, and worship/spread of Gospel is only one slice of the pie, not the only reason for its existence).

If you’re a married Christian couple, and you know an unmarried Christian man and an unmarried Christian women who’d like to marry,
invite each of them over to your house for a Friday night dinner – play match-maker (with the prior permission of both single adults).

Don’t expect your single friends to just nab a spouse all alone, via dating sites or by going to bars.

A lot of Christians are unwisely still insisting upon the “Equally Yoked” rule – but they won’t help Christian singles get married… which means a lot of us have to try dating Non-Christians, and/or we have to go outside of Christian venues, to use secular night clubs and bars.

It doesn’t make any sense to me how a culture (Christian culture) that supposedly prizes Christian- on- Christian marriage (and that frowns on “worldly bars”) never- the- less forces single adult Christians into a position of using Non-Christian means to get a spouse (and possibly end up marrying a Non-Christian).

If you’re a Christian who believes in the Equally Yoked view, would you not want to ensure more Christian/ Christian marriages by helping introduce “Christian Single Person A” to “Christian Single Person B”?

By not helping single Christians get married, Christian people/churches are pretty much forcing those singles to either die single,
or, forcing them to go out on dating sites and to night clubs,
where they will possibly end up marrying a Non-Christian, and they will be exposed to probably a higher chance of alcohol use, sleeping around, etc.

If I was an ‘Equally Yoked Christian’ who is clutching my pearls over the high rate of delayed (or no) marriage among Christian singles,
I’d rather turn my church into a meeting place for Christian singles to meet other singles to date then send them out into a secular world of dating.

But that is exactly the predicament older Christian singles have been in for a long time now.

Daisy: If you’re a married Christian couple, and you know an unmarried Christian man and an unmarried Christian women who’d like to marry,
invite each of them over to your house for a Friday night dinner – play match-maker (with the prior permission of both single adults).

People did this to me and it always went very badly. The main reason being that men are much more highly esteemed than women, and terrible men are considered “good husbands” for the average Christian woman. More than one so-called Christian has told me that being married was more important than being treated well.

I’m all for more big events and intentional ministry to singles (in any method, because most churches I’ve visited don’t even acknowledge single people), but many Christians don’t have a lick of sense when it comes to matchmaking.

Lea: I also think churches that try to set up ‘single’ ministries can also be criticized when they are deemed a meat market

I think this might be preferable to pretending singles don’t exist, but I don’t know that I’ve ever been at a church that even got a singles ministry half right.

But I definitely think this pressure in Christian circles to marry everyone off as fast as possible causes huge problems. Most of the messages about marriage in general are so unhealthy to begin with, then you add in pressure to marry fast. It’s a recipe for disaster.

Friend: It’s just lunch, not high-stakes courtship and giving away pieces of the heart.

Ha. This is how I treat all first dates. It’s so much healthier, imo. I don’t know why your friends were mad at you! Seems silly. Maybe it’s somewhere in the realm of good gift giving, where if you give a good gift it is deemed to mean something about your knowledge of and affection for the recipient? I however absolutely agree with you that no one can predict a spark!

Excellent article on the YRR crowd by Stephen McAlpine which clearly shows the difference between them and those of us who were there first.
“But here’s the other thing, and it’s probably connected with that: those Old Reformed dudes, er, gentlemen, who guided me when I first started theological training, didn’t really get off on the word “Reformed”. They just didn’t talk about it that much at all.

What did they talk about? They talked about Jesus. All of the time. It’s as if they were really, really close to him. They were keen to showcase Jesus from all of the Bible. Keen to show how the doctrines of grace impacted every aspect of a Christian’s personal life, ministry and worship. Keen to show its pastoral implications, not its sassy pretensions.

And they didn’t get off on rating. Didn’t get off on book sales. Didn’t get off on podcast numbers. Didn’t get off on telling you how many people were attending their churches. It’s as if they made it their ambition not to rate; to live a quiet non-rating life. “

https://stephenmcalpine.com/i-kissed-rating-goodbye/

Lea: did the soul ties thing come from Josh?

Not specifically. Some of these friends probably expected God to answer their prayers through us. We were very low key. I wish their hopes had not been dashed.

Friend: It’s just lunch, not high-stakes courtship and giving away pieces of the heart.

Similar to what I encountered when I was flushing money down the crapper of video dating services in the Nineties. It wasn’t “just lunch”, it was a one-shot, all-or-nothing job interview for Marriage.

Friend: Lea: did the soul ties thing come from Josh?

Not specifically.

Josh probably just distilled down Christianese Courtship trends and tropes that were floating around at the time and collated them into a single System. And in doing so, ramped them up.

Hmm…as I think about the whole SGM dynamic and the sexual abuse that went on and overlay the legalistic purity dogma….

Talk about cognative disonance.

As a child growing up in only a moderately legalistic religious environment and being sexually abused, it created an terrible mental double bind. This is what I was expected to be but could never be. Essentially, on top of the narcissistic mother for whom I could never be good enough (straight As meant my classes were too easy), now the church was telling me that I had to meet this abstinence standard to please God. A standard that, because of the abuse, I could never meet. Talk about hopeless. I’m honestly not sure, sometimes, how my mind survived my childhood. I still deal with mental and emotional fallout.

Now, imagine adding to all that the concept that the abuse was ordered by God. I’m amazed Joshua is still sane. May God truly set him free.

I just wonder what sort of insanity infects the mind of so-called Christians that they think a 21 or 22 man has anything to say about anything. A young man should just shut his mouth and learn from those who’ve gone through it themselves. The last thing they ever need to do is write a book about relationships and marriage and dating. They don’t know anything about life yet. Marriage is a struggle, and that struggle never ends. You have to go through the struggle of raising up children, dealing with them as infants when they do nothing but take from you (your sleep, your resources, your sanity), balancing careers against that, giving up on your own dreams to serve your children, sacrificing your hobbies and money and security for your them. Then the woman has to go through the man acting like a self-obsessed idiot as he reaches his midlife crisis, and then the man has to go through the woman dealing with the rage and depression of perimenopause and menopause, and then they both go through teens not answering the phone at 2:30am when the parents are dying inside as they picture their teens lying dead in a ditch somewhere, then you go through the struggle of aging and not being able to do what was once so easy, then the health issues, etc., etc., etc. There is nothing a man in his early 20s knows about relationships and marriage that any of us need to consider for three seconds. Josh had no idea what he was talkign about, he was an ignorant fool. Why anyone would read what such a young man has to say is beyond me.

Jeannette Altes: Essentially, on top of the narcissistic mother for whom I could never be good enough (straight As meant my classes were too easy), now the church was telling me that I had to meet this abstinence standard to please God.

One of the best essays I’ve ever read on this subject was this one by Shmuley Boteach:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-tyranny-of-perfection_b_514338

Muff Potter,

Interesting article.

When I was 10, right in the heart of the worst, one of my aunts gave me a copy of the album Jesus Christ, Superstar. I wore the album out and later got a copy on 8-track (yikes!). During that point in my life, it was the only gospel that could get in. The biggest gift from that was that it made Jesus human. And that made Him real to me in a way the church never did.

Fast forward….I was on the cusp of breaking free of the cult I was in when De Vinci Code came out. My b-i-l had been studying a lot of things and he asked me if I thought Jesus and Mary Magdalene had married. No one had ever asked me straight out like that. The answer that ‘bubbled out’ surprised me as much as him: “The bible doesn’t say that He did. But I also can’t think of anywhere it says He didn’t. And if He did, it wouldn’t change who He was or what He did.” We kind of just looked at each other and went, “huh.”

Now, I’m inclined to believe he didn’t, but more for reasons along the lines of what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 7 or to avoid the very scenario portrayed in the movie. *shug*

But I do believe he felt lonely, felt love, had to deal with all the human stuff inside that we do. He was (is) fully God, but He laid that aside, as Paul wrote, and became fully human. To me, that is more overwhelming in its demonstration of love by far than the concept of Him just somehow looking human but not really being human. He bridged the gap indeed. And seeing Him like this makes me love Him and relate to Him more, not less. I think that was part of the point. And it also makes more real the truth that He really does understand us and love us.

Jeannette Altes: I didn’t hear ‘to throw out the OT.’ I heard to discard the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant is the Mosaic Law.

Hi Jeanette! Here is what Willi said:

God is calling us to throw the old one in the dump and get in the new one,learn all the new ways that it functions and operate it instead. The old covenant is just that… OLD…toss it out and get to know the new covenant between God and man…mainly His son Jesus.

I’m fully aware that Paul spent a good deal of time convincing the Jews that the Mosaic Law was unable to save them and that it is in Jesus their salvation rested. While his ministry was primarily to the gentiles, his background and origin led to many confrontations with the Jews who did not believe in the growing “Jesus Movement.”

My objection to Willi’s words was primarily due to what I thought was a trivialization of the historical value of the OT. I hoped to show the importance by sharing the great number of prophecies about Jesus Christ in the OT and their fulfillment in the NT. Thus, advising the throwing out was inappropriate. If I misunderstood his words and/or his intent, I apologize.

Willi Flex: Even our good works r like filthy rags.

Harmful little phrase, that.

Jeannette Altes: I didn’t hear ‘to throw out the OT.’ I heard to discard the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant is the Mosaic Law.

Jeanette, I think I see why you didn’t hear the word “Testament” (and I did) but you correctly heard “Covenant” instead. The two words are used interchangeably depending on which version of the Bible one is using.

For example:

(KJV)  Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. Luke 22:20

(NASB)  And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood. Luke 22:20

It may not have been a perfect system, but look at the divorce stats. No one is acing it. How effective/ineffective a method is must be weighed in comparison to all the other alternatives. I’m not saying it was a perfect plan. I’m saying people are making too much of it. No other method is doing a bang up job, either. Our culture has degraded morally so much that our kids face a constant battle (from porn access to peer pressure to “tolerance” nonsense. All JH tried to do was to offer an alternative idea. His own marriage tanked. Don’t forget much of that was likely because of the stress of years of church scandal. It really wasn’t all about his books. They left their church wounded…left the country and their entire support system.

That said, I’m inclined to think there is an unknown big factor that we are missing. Two years ago Shannon raved about her husband. Of course the upheaval from both of them going through major ideological shifting and career changes added to the residual pain of the scandal and the loss of their supportive surroundings may be enough. More than likely, though, it is rooted in the typical things like financial fights or infidelity.

Victorious: My objection to Willi’s words was primarily due to what I thought was a trivialization of the historical value of the OT.

“Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.” (Gal 3:24-25). I think the problem is that many do not want to learn the lesson of the tutor and move on to Christ; they want to remain in a law relationship with God. I could be wrong but I think this is what Willi was referring to.

SiteSeer,

–and it’s up to me to make it happen,

–Well, and this applies to a lot of other subjects besides dating and marriage, too.
+++++++++++++++++

my view is that God loves initiative. Seeing what we’re going to do with what we’ve got. we make informed decisions, God partners with us at our invitation. God can work with plan A, B, C…. together, we do something productive. figure things out. move forward. with God joining us, exponentially so in some respects.

ishy: More than one so-called Christian has told me that being married was more important than being treated well.

Sounds like Jane Austin’s Pride and Prejudice. The main character Elizabeth turns down her cousins offer of marriage, only to discover that Elizabeth’s best friend and neighbor is eagerly willing to marry the fool. Simply because being a spinster at the age of 27 was a terrible burden on her family and a shame in society.

How any Christian in modern times could give advice to another believer that marrying anyone is better than marrying no one, is beyond me.

Anonymous Person: It may not have been a perfect system

Of course it wasn’t a perfect system. In fact, it was an exceptionally stupid system likely to lead to huge problems, as it did.

Your entire argument boils down to ‘divorce is happening and it’s a problem we must DO SOMETHING’, Josh a 21 year old who knew nothing came up with SOMETHING, so obviously it was great that everybody did it.

Even if you think both that all divorces are bad (I don’t), you would have to also think the reason for those divorces is that people knew their spouses way too well before they married them or that they had experienced other relationships or that “purity” or lack thereof was the reason for all divorces for this to make sense as a solution. That’s just plain wrong.

Lea: you would have to also think the reason for those divorces is that people knew their spouses way too well before they married them or that they had experienced other relationships or that “purity” or lack thereof was the reason for all divorces for this to make sense as a solution. That’s just plain wrong.

But EES PARTY LINE!

SiteSeer: Why we have made this into some kind of litmus test of righteousness, I don’t know.

Simple.
ONE-UPMANSHIP.
If I can’t be more Righteous than YOU, who do I got to be more Righteous than?

Headless Unicorn Guy: If I can’t be more Righteous than YOU, who do I got to be more Righteous than?

You mentioned yesterday, “Josh probably just distilled down Christianese Courtship trends and tropes that were floating around at the time and collated them into a single System. And in doing so, ramped them up.”

Many Christians are hoping for a simple, reliable formula. The “righteous” and “pure” churches have loudly and endlessly oversold their own results.

These churches basically promise to control human behavior. Naturally they attract a lot of humans who are worried about controlling their own behavior.

Jeannette Altes:
Muff Potter,

Interesting article.

When I was 10, right in the heart of the worst, one of my aunts gave me a copy of the album Jesus Christ, Superstar. I wore the album out and later got a copy on 8-track (yikes!). During that point in my life, it was the only gospel that could get in. The biggest gift from that was that it made Jesus human. And that made Him real to me in a way the church never did.

Fast forward….I was on the cusp of breaking free of the cult I was in when De Vinci Code came out. My b-i-l had been studying a lot of things and he asked me if I thought Jesus and Mary Magdalene had married. No one had ever asked me straight out like that. The answer that ‘bubbled out’ surprised me as much as him: “The bible doesn’t say that He did. But I also can’t think of anywhere it says He didn’t. And if He did, it wouldn’t change who He was or what He did.” We kind of just looked at each other and went, “huh.”

Now, I’m inclined to believe he didn’t, but more for reasons along the lines of what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 7 or to avoid the very scenario portrayed in the movie. *shug*

But I do believe he felt lonely, felt love, had to deal with all the human stuff inside that we do. He was (is) fully God, but He laid that aside, as Paul wrote, and became fully human. To me, that is more overwhelming in its demonstration of love by far than the concept of Him just somehow looking human but not really being human. He bridged the gap indeed. And seeing Him like this makes me love Him and relate to Him more, not less. I think that was part of the point. And it also makes more real the truth that He really does understand us and love us.

Jeannette Altes: But I do believe he felt lonely, felt love, had to deal with all the human stuff inside that we do. He was (is) fully God, but He laid that aside, as Paul wrote, and became fully human.

Hi again, Jeanette! I’m a little behind in my reading, but when I read this part of your comment, I thought you might enjoy this as much as I did. It’s entitled: The Emotional Jesus: His Ups & Downs here https://www.patheos.com/blogs/robertcrosby/2012/06/the-emotional-jesus-his-ups-downs/

Muff Potter: Very much agreed too, but I also think that for much of Christendom, the ‘fully human’ part exists only on paper. So long as ‘fully human’ has been sanitized and its boundaries surveyed to avoid the messy areas, it’s rah-rah-sis-boom-bah.
Anything other, and we won’t go there.

Yes. I don’t find it productive to dwell on or talk about the details (any more than I care to do so about anyone else). It is enough, for me, to acknowledge the reality that he had a physical body just like ours and all the human emotions we do. Including fear and doubt.

In Gethsemane, He did not want to keep going. He begged the Father for another way. But, gave Himself over to the will of the Father – and was strengthened for the task at hand by angels. He understands.

The Creator of all chose to become one of us. In so doing, He bound Himself to us – on purpose, permanently, forever human, even after picking His divinity back up. THAT is love.

Lea: I never thought anything other than that they were announcing the separation as a precursor to divorce. It’s interesting to see people interpreting it this way, but I honestly doubt they had any intentions of making this that vague. It’s probably that they are required to separate prior to divorce, by the law. If they reconcile, they reconcile but I think their current intentions are pretty clear. YMMV.

Just to clarify, I didn’t mean to imply that this was their intention in how they worded the statement. Just that I’ve heard teaching (a while ago) that separation is okay “biblically” so long as it doesn’t lead to divorce and one or both remarrying, also called adultery. Such teachers would possibly point to this well-known couple (in neo-calvinist circles) as an example to follow just so long as their status remained “separated” (or they reconciled), but never went on to divorce.

I heard some wacky teachings back in the day. One person even taught that people who came to faith after divorce and remarriage should divorce the current spouse so both could go back to their former spouses and not be living in adultery anymore!

Steve240,

Yes, Josh always seemed very personable and like he really cared about people. But his Dad did push him onto C.J., and when Josh first came into CLC, he acted and preached just like C.J. it was crazy. Now it sounds like he’s even questioning his Christian faith, which is really so very sad.

What broke them up is REFORM THEOLOGY. The complementarian position. I believe in protecting our children, both male and female. Especially, girls need to be protected as they begin to enter the either: dating or courtship season of life. My own mother/child of the 60’s rebelled against her parents’ concerns for her upcoming marriage, married my dad anyway, had/birthed me, and immediately divorced my dad…for the very concerns her mom/dad were worried about. Dating is not the answer. Maybe the purity ‘movement’ as you call it, isn’t the answer either. But we must admit that parents can ‘see’ things in a young man that young, impressionable young ladies cannot. My dad lost custody…went on to remarry several times, and finally died at age 53. I never knew him. Realize that the un-Biblical complementarian position is the culprit here.

Anonymous Person:
Two years ago Shannon raved about her husband.

Most people who rave like that do not mean it at all. They are usually lying. They are either trying to convince themselves about something they do not believe or trying to convince other people—or both. I love my wife, she’s the only one for me, but if I spent a good deal of my time here raving about how much I was in love with her and how awesome she was, you better believe there’s a problem afoot.

Nick Bulbeck: There’s an old saying: There’s no fool like an old fool. The real fools were the older generation of leaders who first pushed their dogmas onto Joshua Harris, and then pushed him and his book into the limelight.

Agreed. The older guard who used this young man as their tool are not ignorant fools, they are stupid fools. Of course, Josh was an ignorant fool, he was way too young and full of himself (as virtually all of us were at that age) and he was given way too much credence for a young man who could not possibly have known his right from his left. He had no business writing a book on anything at that age, other than maybe some kind of fiction. But ignorance can be cured, it usually just takes time. He has probably learned a lot in the last 20 years, learned about his faith or lack of, learned about marriage and how it’s always tough and there is no silver bullet save pursuing Jesus, and even then, even if you could do it the way you ought (and none of us can), there’s no guarantee your partner doesn’t jump the rails. There are no guarantees in life, I’ve learned that as a parent of teenagers and now adults in their 20s, learned how little I know and how little I control. Learned how downright ridiculous I usually am. But unlike ignorance, stupid cannot remedied. Stupid is when you see the results of your ignorance, how it hurts you and others, and just keep doubling down. That describes, IMO, those who were the puppet masters behind the painfully young Josh Harris, best selling author.

Law Prof: One of the reasons that people may not be transparent is because in some churches, confessed sins and struggles are used against the person and they are blackmailed into remaining silent about the sins of others or leaders, or their confessed sins are used against them when they question leadership.

JUST LIKE SCIENTOLOGY!

>Law Prof

There was an article a while back about people who constantly post about their SO on social media actually being a bad indicator, not a good one. I agree with you, most people don’t put all their internal stuff on SM. Or they put all the drama up after the relationship ends (as one person I know keeps doing lately) and make everyone uncomfortable…

Friend: Harmful little phrase, that.

This is so often mis-referenced. In the preceding verse, Isaiah clearly says God honors those who pursue righteousness:

Isaiah 64:5 “Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways…”

When he says in Verse 6, “But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags;” Isaiah is referring to the useless things that Israel’s religious leaders had been teaching them to do cleansing their iniquities — things that just made them dirtier in God’s eyes: continually killing/sacrificing animals for their sin instead of repenting and following the 10 Commandments. (1 Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.”)

Isaiah would roll over in his grave to know that Christians have wrongly assessed and taught that everything someone does out of the goodness of their heart to honor God is just filthy to Him. That nonsense theology is not in any way supported by the whole counsel of Scripture.

Lea: Reform theology in general and complementarian nonsense are completely different things.

But in a lot of cases they DO seem to hang out together.

Nick Bulbeck,

Lol! 🙂

Friend, I had a guy ask me out in high school who apparently had a gf (I was under the impression they broke up when I accepted). So after he broke up with gf, he asked me to go out and I was like yeah, no. THEN everybody was like ‘oh good, he held so and so down on a bed at a party and wouldn’t let her leave (*which I’m sure was an edited version of this incident but the point was he was dangerous).

they apparently didnt’ want to tell me this story so they wouldn’t prejudice me in making a decision? WHAT???

HUG:

Eh, PCA broke off from PCUSA for being ‘too liberal’, ie rejecting all that comp type stuff. People like PP weren’t reformed. I just think it’s way too simplistic.

Friend: “There might not even be a villain.”
(sorry I’m having issues doing proper replies)

There wasn’t in my last breakup, sometimes it just doesn’t work out. A little bit of ‘you can do better, he doesn’t deserve you’ isn’t so bad but when people start telling you he treated you poorly or is a sexual predator it’s a lot.

LawProf: I found an article or two on it, here is one: “Our online posting habits are directly tied to what social scientists call “relationship visibility” ― the extent to which we make our relationships part of our public personas. Having very high “relationship visibility” and over-posting about a partner may be a mask for relationship insecurity, according to a study recently published in the Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin.”
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/what-it-means-when-couples-constantly-post-about-each-other-on-instagram_n_5a8b06cfe4b00bc49f4732f6

This particular article theorized that it has to do with anxious attachment styles…I don’t know if I necessarily agree with that but it’s a theory. Probably secure people are less concerned about making sure of the appearance aspect of it.

Friend: Come to think of it, my mother thought my husband wasn’t good enough for me.

The CEO of the cult I was part of certainly thought I wasn’t good enough for Lesley. I’m not, but that doesn’t mean he was right.

Friend: Call me when you want to defeat 250000 kittens, though

Yup: cats are evil.

[Generic] you see a fluffy adorable kitten… I see a creature that wants to leave excrement in my garden and kill small wildlife.

Lea:
LawProf: I found an article or two on it, here is one: “Our online posting habits are directly tied to what social scientists call “relationship visibility” ― the extent to which we make our relationships part of our public personas. Having very high “relationship visibility” and over-posting about a partner may be a mask for relationship insecurity, according to a study recently published in the Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin.”
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/what-it-means-when-couples-constantly-post-about-each-other-on-instagram_n_5a8b06cfe4b00bc49f4732f6

This particular article theorized that it has to do with anxious attachment styles…I don’t know if I necessarily agree with that but it’s a theory. Probably secure people are less concerned about making sure of the appearance aspect of it.

It all makes sense.

Friend:
Beth74,

Appreciated your words about the passage. Fortunately I did not grow up with many clobber verses, but they do cause pain to many.

When the truth is skewed or perverted, it always causes pain to many.

God loves our good deeds done out of genuine kindness and a commitment to righteousness.

Friend: Love many, trust few,
Always paddle your own canoe.

That’s a great quote. I have not heard it before.

Law Prof: I just wonder what sort of insanity infects the mind of so-called Christians that they think a 21 or 22 man has anything to say about anything.

In my neck of the woods, the SBC New Calvinist “youth group” is running the church! Who in their right mind unleashed this army of “lead pastors” in their 20s-30s, with elder boards of same vintage, upon the Body of Christ?!! Of course, that’s just it – the leaders of the new reformation are not in their right spiritual minds. As you note, just because someone has a mic in their face, doesn’t mean they have anything to say … and they certainly won’t listen to seasoned men of God advising them to sit down and shut up. Surrendering the church to “leaders” in their 20s-30s reminds me of a Bible passage:

“King Rehoboam consulted the elders who had served his father Solomon during his lifetime … But Rehoboam rejected the advice the elders gave him and consulted the young men who had grown up with him and were serving him” (1 Kings 12)

Did you get that? The wisest man who ever lived had elders who advised him and the young whippersnapper king rejected ‘their’ counsel in favor of other whippersnappers?! How stupid is that?!! That strategy didn’t turn out well for Rehoboam or the nation of Israel … and it won’t turn out well for the American church.

Josh, YO! Many are getting so much junk thrown at them, they are leaving Christianity too! Yep. I’m under the fig tree with ‘Nathanael’. Bee’s ‘Knees’, —> remember yours! ATB Sòpy ;~)§
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lB8K-5i4c38
—
Reference:
https://www.instagram.com/p/B0ZBrNLH2sl/?utm_source=ig_web_options_share_sheet

Law Prof,

Oh my gosh, I may have to print this out and frame it!

Muff Potter,

That was great, Muff! i copied the article and put it in a folder called “My Religion”.

An evolving thing. just collecting truth. crumpling up stupidity, cruelty, nonsense… stepping on it, grinding it into the ground with my foot…

Good riddance to this monster. He deserves this and worse. He brainwashed millions of people into unhealthy relationships by manipulating the bible for personal gain.

I came to faith in the early 2000s via Campus Crusade and was subjected to Harris’s teachings as the only God-aporoved way to go about romance. Frowns and shame to anyone who dared question it.

How many lives has this man ruined? It’s about time it came back around.

FRAUD.

Robbieswife,

His “sister” quote is from the mystic Julian of Norwich. She was a universalist with an interesting take on sin (putting it mildly).

I suspect this is all about certain sins that he loves more than anything else and needs to feel OK about them.

1. Did he leave his church and even his country because he was afraid of being exposed?

2. It seems that no matter what trauma everyone else is in around him, he makes all things about himself. He appears like a classic narcissist to me.

3. In one way or another, there is a whole lot more to this story. He is trying very hard to sound reasonable, but there are major insults in that statement – and for whatever self righteousness he has been repenting of, he has replaced it with a whole new crop. He just can’t see it.

4. I hope now that Shannon is away from him, she starts to see things more clearly…and guards the hearts of her children in the process. IMO, she should be a whole lot angrier at her soon to be ex than she is right now. It seems that she is directing her anger at the wrong targets. That’s not uncommon.

Muff Potter,

shmuley boteach… those can’t be his real names

as far as perfection goes, it had been hammered in to me that only God’s best, God’s bullseye, was acceptable. anything less would be settling. and God deserved our best. anything less was utterly shameful. after all the suffering he went through, i should be happy to endure anything in order to give him my best. how dare i complain.

…but then i realized i was being manipulated. by people who needed power and enjoyed power. the way i was treated… it was sick. the hours & weeks turning into years of my labor, hard work, expertise given freely… then berated for it because it wasn’t good enough. constantly moving goalposts so control freaks could have people to control.

but i did it for God and only God, because God deserved my best.

indeed God does.

but it’s not perfection. and it’s honest and messy.

and it certainly isn’t for the enrichment and sick satisfaction of personality disordered control freaks. whether they are that way by nature or by nurture.

i think christians and christian leaders can nurtured into behaving as personality disordered control freaks.

i’m done.

Julie Anne: He taught people what his father taught him.

Kids constantly decide what to accept of their parents’ teachings; this is possibly the scariest thing about raising children. Joshua Harris knew he was battling against commonly accepted approaches to romance and marriage. Resisting the culture: is that not what Christians do, often proudly and without thinking?

Joshua Harris deserves mercy and understanding as a human and as a survivor of abuse. However, “I learned this at my father’s knee” cannot be a blanket excuse—and I am not sure Joshua Harris is even blaming his father (is he?). The millions of people reeling about his change of heart deserve mercy and understanding too. Everyone needs to heal at his/her own pace.

Friend… and I am not sure Joshua Harris is even blaming his father (is he?)…

In April of this year (for posterity: it’s 2019), there was an interview with Josh Harris published in Christianity Magazine here in the UK, not long after IKDG had been pulled from publication. Harris certainly didn’t seem to be blaming anyone else in that setting. In fact the main context for the interview itself was the film “I survived IKDG” in which Harris himself had been involved.

I’ve only seen Harris refer to the things that he wrote, rather than the things that somebody else made him write.

Anonymous Person: If someone didn’t like the suggestions, they could ignore them. If they were injured, they own it.

This was pushed on children by adults in church who were supposed to be educating them on christian life. They presented this book as gospel and shamed people who didn’t follow the rules. THEY own this. THEY messed up.

If they were injured, and they were, they deserve compassion.

Law Prof,

And one more thing, while I’m on a rant: while my wife almost never got anything for Christmas and often next to nothing or nothing for b-days, it wasn’t a matter of a poor single mom without funds, because my wife’s mom always spent money on herself and had the finest she could afford: expensive clothes, food, wine, etc., affluent boyfriends who treated her to the finest. But my wife basically got nothing. And her dad was the same: traveled the world, went to Europe every year, Safaris in Africa, spent enormous sums on himself and indulged himself, while giving precious little to his girl, who had to wear second-hand clothing and sometimes went hungry for lack of food. Sounds like a Dickens novel, but it was the truth. There’s a lot more, I could go on and on. That’s a messed up upbringing, and my wife will always have dead spots inside her that she had to kill to cope with life, but she didn’t pass the abuse she endured on to her kids and she gives and gives. We are not prisoners of our parents’ sins, not doomed to repeat them.

Muff Potter: all things to all people

We foolishly bought the Apostle Paul of coffeemakers.

That’s true. It’s not a contest.

But I tire of people always trying to account for what someone does as an adult because they had a bad upbringing. A lot of people with fine upbringings become terrible, selfish adults, a lot of people with terrible upbringings become fine, unselfish adults. Josh may have been brainwashed, that’s a fair point as far as it goes, but I don’t see exactly what about what we know of his upbringing would make him brainwashed and anyone else in particular who also had a terrible time growing up not brainwashed. I don’t even really know what brainwashing is, other than a popular and unscientific phrase used to describe someone who does the same awful things as their leaders or parents. But I’m not a psychologist or psychiatrist.

I thought his books had some excellent advice on how to honor a woman in courtship but at times sounded too formulaic. When the scandal hit SGM, I think it hit him hard and I noticed that he was trying find work in the secular field and was training for another career. I think he has hit a period of disillusionment which Oswald Chambers states in His Utmost for Highest is actually often a stage where a Christian grows the most (July 30th). I do pray for him and hope things work out.

Julie Anne: He was groomed by his father and CJ Mahaney for ministry work. He has never been out of high-controlling Calvinist groups. Additionally, he is a sex abuse survivor.

Any one of those three can mess up your head, never mind all three ganging up…

But that’s not going to cut it with all those whose lives got messed up by Josh’s book and its fanboys in pulpits.

I’m not sure I’m allowed to post here. But I’ll try again.

It is odd how Joshua Harris says he’s sorry for how he treated women and shows it by divorcing his wife and splitting up the parents of his three children, two being daughters. Odd.

It’s also odd that he rejects Christianity and then apologizes for not included unrepentant sinners in the life of the church…by stabbing his ex friends and those to whom he was lead pastor…stabbing them in the back. Odd.

I felt sorry for him at first. I am feeling less and less of that. He was an adult, a husband, a father, and a pastor. He had the duty to study and show discernment all along the way. Sure adversity and scandal hit his life that he did not instigate. But that happens to all lives. Rather than mourn for those victims that were innocent children, be flips it all around into poor poor Josh. Boo freaking hoo.

I have a lot more empathy for his wife. She is also a responsible adult, but I also think he lied to her all along the way and probably still is in some areas.

The kids I know nothing about, but they are kids. I pray that God will take hold of their hearts and lives and see them through this rough period stronger and better for the testing.

I pray for all of those who were the recipients of abuse done in the name of Joshua Harris’ book, executed by the church leaders who claimed to be Christians. The shame and guilt and outright visible abuse executed upon those who were unworthy in the name of a book written by an individual is paramount of the vipers Jesus spoke of. How He could encounter the woman at the well who had five husbands, treating her with grace, kindness, love, and truth concerning her sin, is the Way in which so called christians should behave in these modern times.

Due to the fact that institutional churches worship legalism and impose their selfish personal directives over people who desire to follow Jesus, the life of Joshua Harris is an example of how religion trumps faith in Jesus Christ.

How many “pure and holy” religious people abuse others they look down upon, in the name of a false jesus? The fallout is endless.

Praying for a man who caused many pain, heartache, brokenness, and utter destruction in their relationship with Jesus, others, in their marriages, in their sibling relationships, and in their faith. Like Saul, turned Paul, I believe Jesus is removing the scales from Mr. Harris’ eyes, and showing him the truth through the lives of Jesus’ ekklesia.

Many theologians will claim that Mr. Harris is apostate, all the while hiding the sexual sins of their own hearts, their own households, their own churches, and their own lace of relationship with our LORD JESUS.

May Jesus have His Mercy and Grace upon all of us.

Anonymous Poster: It’s also odd that he rejects Christianity and then apologizes for not included unrepentant sinners in the life of the church…by stabbing his ex friends and those to whom he was lead pastor…stabbing them in the back.

I understand the anger and betrayal. Harris led an influential movement that caused a huge amount of pain and damage. Now he has turned against his own former faith. Folks are rattled.

But is repentance a prerequisite for participating in church? Good golly, I’d rather welcome that unrepentant sinner to the pew than leave him/her out on the sidewalk. We often cherry-pick which sins are acceptable anyway—or which are even sins. Jesus associated with all sinners, and let his own wisdom work in their minds and hearts.

KJ: That movement? Yeah, it’s basically “how to brainwash your kids for Jesus.”

Right. I grew up in a christian conservative household/church, but I went to christian school and then public school and had outside influences and it still took me a while to deconstruct everything and figure what I really thought of it. I’m still rethinking things and seeing things. It would be a million times harder in Josh’s position.

Jean,

You’d do better to read Josh’s own statement than the article you posted.

Two good, relevant pieces by Katelyn Beaty:
https://religionnews.com/2019/07/26/joshua-harris-and-the-sexual-prosperity-gospel/
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/15/opinion/sunday/sex-christian.html

Jarrett Edwards:
While I am saddened by any person losing their faith in God, I’m not sure Harris, and others like him, ever really had faith. If your faith is built upon theology, man-made rules, and/or control, that isn’t faith.

How on earth can *anyone* know that? With all due respect, do we have the gift of reading souls? Of seeing into someone else’s heart and soul and inmost being?

I don’t. Do you?

I know of *so* many cases where people were sucked into toxic controlling cults, which messed them up so much that they were fortunate to emerge with their sanity even partially intact.

I’m talking about both Protestant and Catholic cults (e.g., the Catholic Charismatic Covenant Communities associated with the Sword of the Spirit). If you’ve never been brainwashed by these cults, then you can’t imagine what it’s like.

Thersites,

I have no idea how old this is, but his Instagram is publicizing a company called Clear & Loud. In light of his own background, text on that company’s website (copyright 2018) is mind blowing:

Use the power of story to connect with your customers.
Grow your business with story-driven marketing.
Does Your Message Lack Clarity?
– Having trouble converting leads to customers?
– Are people confused when you explain what you do?
– Have you wasted money on marketing?
– Can you articulate the problem you solve for clients?
A confusing message is costing you money.

Catholic Gate-Crasher: I know of *so* many cases where people were sucked into toxic controlling cults, which messed them up so much that they were fortunate to emerge with their sanity even partially intact.

I was on the fringe of one in the Seventies, and even though I remained functional on the outside it took many years for the SAN damage to heal.

Catholic Gate-Crasher,

I still conclude that anyone on those circumstances didn’t have actual faith in God. When you are in a cult, of the type you mention, your faith isn’t in God, but in the cult. Yes, you are manipulated into thinking it is faith in God, but it is not true faith.

Jeannette Altes: This is not as cut and dried as this. In my experience, God is not limited in ability to interact with us by what we are taught about Him.

This is so true and very comforting! God is not limited to, or by, our beliefs about him.

Nick Bulbeck,

ishy,

LOL! It always was mine!

Nick Bulbeck,

Nick Bulbeck,

I think you sound like a 1st class Christian! Perhaps you should find fellowship with believers who help you to stand rather then those who try to get you to fall down. ☺

dee: I travelled to Edinburgh last year and Nick went out of his way to meet up with me.

The honour was mine! I only travelled 40 miles – I’d have gone a lot further.

Nick Bulbeck,

The honour would have been Mine, too!

Also haggis was one of My better ideas, to those to whom it is given to understand.

Nana Flair: That’s already been happening with Bill Gothard, Recovering Grace, etc.

Yes, I was thinking more along the lines of a new volley of MeToo’s coming from the New Calvinist front.

Friend: But is repentance a prerequisite for participating in church?

Yes.
Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Matthew 11:20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not.

Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Mark 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.

Nana Flair: I read a secular post reporting on Harris’ news, and the comments were all about naive evangelicals who followed the advice of a 20 year old kid on how to bring up their children.

That’s the sad part. Things like this just give the unchurched another reason to say “See, there’s nothing to it!”

TS00: Sadly, this is what I suspect as well. Harris can ‘separate’ without being thrown to the wolves, but his goose is cooked if he divorces. I see this ‘fake marriage’ status in so many so-called christian homes. Like the Pharisees, people have been deceived into upholding the letter of the law, while entirely missing the heart of it. So many christians sanctimoniously remain in dead, hopeless marriages in which both partners are miserable and lonely, assuring themselves that God is pleased as long as they don’t divorce. Instead, their abandonment of their pledge to love their spouse is just as real as any divorce.

It is the state of division and enmity that displeases God, whether one divorces, separates or lives in an unarmed truce. None of these three options uphold the marriage God describes or intends a man and a woman to share. It is legalistic hypocrisy to think your dead marriage is superior to someone else’s honest divorce.
********

I doubt Harris or his wife care as they claim to no longer be believers. Why would they be troubled about divorce? It’s quite acceptable in our wider culture these days.

Could the announcement be to generate business for him, and also hits for her music sites? Especially since he apologized to gays, this should help business, and maybe generate some speaking engagements as well.

I somehow stumbled into instagram or something and his wife has many photos out there, posing like she’s playing model the way teen girls do. They seem so like-minded in their complete walk away from the faith; it’s a wonder they don’t stay together?!

Lea: It *was* a financial burden to her family and a relief to them that she would be taken care of, such was life when you were a gentlewoman in that time period with not enough money to live on and unable to earn it. Isn’t it great that we have a new system for all it’s flaws?

Charlotte was not romantic, you know
And Charlotte did get that sitting room all to herself, where she could pour tea, so it wasn’t all bad!

” His wife has pictures of herself all over the place, like a teenager.”

Or…Like an adult. Like a musician. Like anyone with a social media at all.

Are pictures somehow an indication of bad character now just because we can share them rather than putting them in an album? Bah.

Did my comment come through?