1 Battaboom

It is my understanding that Highpoint Church is independent of HBC & has been for several years.

Do we know what date the letter was sent? And who it was addressed to – presumably the elders?

__

“Boosted Horrible Habitat, Perhaps?”

hmmm…

Whoomp, Whoomp, Whoomp…

The proverbial sheeple at Harvest Bible Chapel have historically been diabolically pew pastured to pastorally prey upon them and eat them and fortuitously devour their wealth. Fortunately for many, the wheels on this sinister convoluted bus no longer go round and round. The bus driver has now apparently enjoined his exile, traveling to boomtown —Naples, Florida to begin the 501c3 grift again.

The proper way to call this sad scenario is to get as close to this proverbial premadonna pastoral pounder’s face as possible without touching them and scream BOOST. (Similar to Bull $hit, but slightly different.)

There is no ‘happily ever after’ for this sad game, I’m afraid…

Now, who finds the money when these folks try to pay the rent?

Sêê how they run!

;~)

– –
– Intermission :
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-bhkmRUj-cI

-=-

In response to Ed Stetzer’s message that he paid back for the car when finding out it was from ministry funds: I’m a civil engineer and the idea someone as influential as Stetzer can just take a freaking collector car as a gift is blowing my mind. If a vendor gave me a gift any more valuable than a logo-decorated pen, I’d be fired and lose my license. Every corporate ethics policy would raise a flag on that.

https://www.engineering.com/Library/ArticlesPage/tabid/85/ArticleID/66/Accepting-Gifts.aspx

Stetzer was on my SBC creepy-guy radar when he worked as Executive Director of SBC’s LifeWay Research group – I put him right up there with Al Mohler. Elusive in his exact theological leaning, he helped orchestrate the New Calvinist takeover of SBC by encouraging the new reformers and their church planting program within SBC. One of his last “achievements” at LifeWay was to help launch The Gospel Project – which is subtle indoctrination to reformed theology via SBC Sunday School literature. Stetzer can talk a good line about his church planting background, but my recollection was that he was not very successful as a church planter. I was startled when Wheaton College announced his selection as Executive Director of the Billy Graham Center there … I’ve never considered him to be very evangelistic. I would not be surprised if there was some truth to his acceptance of an expensive gift from MacDonald … however, there was obviously a deterioration in their friendship as JMac made some vulgar comments about Stetzer in the Mancow expose’. Good Lord, when will this cast of characters taking the American church for a ride just go away?!

Max: I would not be surprised if there was some truth to his acceptance of an expensive gift from MacDonald

Statement from Ed Stetzer about the VW … sounds harmless enough, sort of, maybe: https://twitter.com/reachjulieroys?lang=en

Max: when will this cast of characters taking the American church for a ride just go away?!

They’re not going away, thus abandoning a constituency that applauds and $upports them.

Co-dependency. Back in the day there was a bestseller, “Codependent No More”. I like to think of the Bible as the ultimate codependent no more guidebook, as Jesus set that straight some 2K+ yrs. ago.

__

Holy Mancow,

He did it in the sanctuary, now he’s doin’ it on the road…
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k4tp6ktKNOY

;~)

– –

elastigirl,

“he surprised us with the gift of 1971 VW, which I assumed was from his personal funds.”
+++++++++++++++++

it’s weird for someone to buy a car for someone else just for fun. i can only fathom someone doing that who had so much disposable income they would be actively looking for ways to give it away.

it is beyond obscene for such a person to be a ‘pastor’, since his wealth is other people’s money given in good faith that it is going toward good causes, not the pastor’s personal wealth.

it’s equally weird that Ed Stetzer doesn’t seem to have had alarm bells ringing off in his conscience that a ‘pastor’ would do this. it clearly didn’t bother Ed that JM would have that much money to just throw around. No big deal, really.

maybe it’s because Ed got a free cool car so all is well.

maybe it’s because Ed’s a pastor, too, and feels entitled to a generous salary and other perks.

he’s a pastor of an HBC church plant — are lavish amounts of money for leaders just the done thing? so much so that it feels normal to him?

it’s just stinks so much it’s nauseating. it’s amazing to me that he can’t smell it.

elastigirl: it is beyond obscene for such a person to be a ‘pastor’, since his wealth is other people’s money given in good faith that it is going toward good causes, not the pastor’s personal wealth

Exactly, when a man is a full-time pastor (as JMac was), his personal wealth = ministry tithes and offerings. I suppose it can be argued that he invested his HBC salary and made “personal” money on those investments, but the source of his investment funds was still church money. Six-figure salary, mansion, summer & winter retreats, perks galore, gifts of vintage cars to buddies … are we sick yet?!

elastigirl: it’s equally weird that Ed Stetzer doesn’t seem to have had alarm bells ringing off in his conscience that a ‘pastor’ would do this. it clearly didn’t bother Ed that JM would have that much money to just throw around.

I can understand how someone in ministry might have not looked into it. I don’t question people who give gifts to my ministry. To his credit, apparently he looked into it last month and discovered the money came from walk in the word. As soon as he figured it out he paid the money back in full. You can see that story on Julie Roy’s latest blog Post.

Fisher: Depends on how nice a car it was. We’ve had people donate cars to us and we accepted them. It’s part of a lifestyle of living on full time support.I can’t comment on Stetzers salary or lifestyle but for us,a family living below the poverty line for twenty years and in full time ministry we have accepted gifts in kind like this which have allowedus to carry out our work. I don’t consider that sleazy.

Of course, there’s nothing wrong with what you did. Totally different. I’ve accepted two cars from friends, and given three cars to friends. It has happened when one side or the other was down on their luck. That’s a totally different matter from Christian celebs, well-connected, giving each other gifts that theyt know good and well likely came straight from the church coffers, either directly or indirectly.

After reading all of these letters, I still don’t get the mindset that could overlook these issues and go on as if everything was normal. Was it a craving for excitement, to be where things “are happening”? Feel like you’re a part of something ‘big’?

Harvest has been instrumental in the spiritual growth of tens of thousands of people

These megachurches get started, appeal to the flesh, market themselves, and start luring people in. Word of mouth says it’s ‘the place to be’ and Christians play musical chairs and move over to the mega. Is that really “spiritual growth”? To me it looks like the spiritual equivalent of Walmart moving into a community and all the mom & pop shops going under. I support anyone’s right to go to a church of their choosing but let’s not pretend these churches are bringing some kind of huge wave of new believers into the fold. They are just concentrating church goers into one group.

Jesus said God could raise up children of Abraham from the stones if he wanted to. These guys are not as indispensable to God as they think they are.

Max,

“…but the source of his investment funds was still church money. Six-figure salary, mansion, summer & winter retreats, perks galore, gifts of vintage cars to buddies … are we sick yet?!”
+++++++++++++++++++++

well, yeah, WE are, cuz we’re sober.

it takes a special kind of person to be oblivious to it all.

to mistake the sick for normal.

Fisher,

” I can’t comment on Stetzers salary or lifestyle but for us, a family living below the poverty line for twenty years and in full time ministry we have accepted gifts in kind like this which have allowed us to carry out our work. I don’t consider that sleazy.”
+++++++++++++++++++

hi, fisher. i hadn’t seen your comment here when i typed my previous comment. i apologize for making any assumptions.

i suppose my question still stands, but i’ll rephrase it:

since the donation represents a sacrifice, isn’t it right, honest, and honoring to the giver to allocate it where the giver expects it to go?

isn’t it wrong to accept cash or gifts from other ministers/ministries when the people who gave sacrificially to them were told their money would be going elsewhere for a different purpose?

Law Prof,

Thanks.

elastigirl:
elastigirl,

“he surprised us with the gift of 1971 VW, which I assumed was from his personal funds.”
+++++++++++++++++

it’s weird for someone to buy a car for someone else just for fun.i can only fathom someone doing that who had so much disposable income they would be actively looking for ways to give it away.

it’s equally weird that Ed Stetzer doesn’t seem to have had alarm bells ringing off in his conscience that a ‘pastor’ would do this.it clearly didn’t bother Ed that JM would have that much money to just throw around.No big deal, really.

Two thoughts that bubble up:

“He who is kind to the poor lends to YHWH”

The wisdom of the OT, which of course Jesus’ teaching was shot through and through with — recall that He commanded to show kindness to those who could not reciprocate (if one wanted to be more righteous than the “tax-collectors and sinners”)

When public light is shined on concealed misdeeds, believer perps seem to take comfort from comparison with the sufferings of Job. IIRC, Job was a defender of the fatherless and the poor. But the odd thing about Job is that he embraced his troubles as “from YHWH”, which is not a concept one ever hears from the great men of the present day; they attribute their difficulties to “the Satan.”

Another thought, from a fictional character (Sirius Black)

“If you want to know what a man’s like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.”

Jesus said, “the great men of this age exercise their authority … it shall not be so among you”

Is there any doubt what Jesus’ assessment of the great men of the present-day churches is?

Fisher: We’ve had people donate cars to us and we accepted them. It’s part of a lifestyle of living on full time support. I can’t comment on Stetzers salary or lifestyle but for us, a family living below the poverty line for twenty years and in full time ministry we have accepted gifts in kind like this which have allowed us to carry out our work. I don’t consider that sleazy.

I was pondering your comment, Fisher, when a thought struck me. I wonder whether, in true ministry, God keeps the pay low in order to attract the best people.

Julie Roys is doing some great things. She also gives too much deference to evangelical elites.

Shes pulling her punches on Ed on this. She’s not following wartwatch on twitter and didn’t reference dee in her twitter post on this..and dee brought this to light. Seems she doesn’t want to be seen connecting with this community.

She also interviewed a sovereign grace defender in reference to James Macdonald and seemed unaware of the controversy there.

Wake up, Julie! The evangelical elite world you still want to believe in has much corruption…even the guys you have personally respected. Please turn your research and skepticism to your evangelical friends in power as well! They need to hear your voice!

Nick Bulbeck: I was pondering your comment, Fisher, when a thought struck me. I wonder whether, in true ministry, God keeps the pay low in order to attract the best people.

This is very likely Nick. I know some really quality men and women who sacrifice everything to make disciples, train them to gather in lay led groups in homes and then train them to do the same, to start simple new groups. They and we fly under the radar because there’s no cash, no flash. In this kind of movement people follow Jesus because they’ve actually experienced relationship with the risen savior, and aren’t following some hip rock band or trendy preacher.

Mike Daniels: It’s not just cars, pastors were gifted with Harleys as well.

I can see them now … all wearing black leather jackets and sporting goatees, with Vertical Church tattoos just like JMacs … revving up their Harleys in unison at the corporate staff meeting! They probably think Jesus and His disciples would do that if they lived in the 21st century … not!

Fisher: We’ve had people donate cars to us and we accepted them … a family living below the poverty line for twenty years and in full time ministry

I think the Wartburgers would consider that a totally different situation than JMac’s gift to Stetzer … both are living well above the poverty line. And the folks who lovingly gave you those cars did so out of their personal assets, not from the tithes and offerings of the church.

SiteSeer: To me it looks like the spiritual equivalent of Walmart moving into a community and all the mom & pop shops going under.

Sums it up pretty well. Then, when the family-supporting businesses are gone, all you have is a warehouse full of cheap junk under bright lights.

Max: JMac’s personal funds were derived from church funds

I include book sales and conference income in this. Even that money came indirectly from his HBC stage, which he turned into personal profit. His HBC exposure sold his books … his HBC exposure drew folks to his conferences. The Christian Industrial Complex is a money-making machine for “pastors” with a gimmick, empowered and funded by gullibles who support their charades.

dee: I can’t see the page any longer. I wonder if the past is being erased. Do you remember what it said?

Odd. I also ran across a site yesterday that said “the highlight of yesterday was riding around in the back seat of Ed Stetzer’s classic VW Bug” … just rechecked it – get a “parse error” now: https://www.jdpayne.org/2018/12/first-bible-printed-in-north-america/

dee: Do you remember what it said?

This might be the page referenced by Lowlandseer:
https://books.google.com/books?id=zm5PDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT41&lpg=PT41&dq=ed+stetzer+volkswagen&source=bl&ots=PvZz013Fdv&sig=ACfU3U1lNELAzi8sOUJFfyKCqCiVdHx8Jg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjZ7LvE5bvhAhWhTN8KHWiWC5EQ6AEwDXoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=ed%20stetzer%20volkswagen&f=false

“I have had to comfort grown men after some of their encounters with James.” Those weren’t grown men. Those were little boys afraid to stand up to a bully. And for what? To keep their jobs? You work for a church but don’t believe God can find you another job? I can’t believe nobody stood up to this goon.

All our works will be tested by fire ultimately.
It is so sad that the “evangelical elites” are acquiring longer and longer titles behind their “name” : various degrees from this and that place, chairmanship of this and that department, leader of this and that mission society, pastors of this and that big church, speakers of this and that conference, writers of this and that book, ….you wonder how they manage to serve Jesus in the same 24 hours a day life with such busy agenda?

It seems that we have found emptiness in the spiritual vanity world, so we look to specialty cars, bikes, houses, vacations, casinos, ….for excitement and thrills. And such things drive our hearts to hunger for more and more money, more power connections….

Men may be teaching “truth”, but they are not of the truth. Somewhere the root system has shifted, even gotten corrupted. People of the church, we are to be harmless as the doves, but we must be alert and sharp in testing the teachers to see if they are of the Holy Spirit even if the doctrine may sound good on the surface. (Matthew 7:15-20)

As Oswald Chambers put it: It s appallingly easy to pretend. (Sermon on the Mount)

LeRoy: Their corrupt practices and unbiblical messages are what we should be focusing on.

Agreed. The inward vs. the outward … although JMac’s black leather jacket was getting to me.

Yup they got us for suckers. I guess I am one of the so called sheep. Brought to slaughter. Thought I was doing going by giving my money to the church so it could be used for good. Giving my money away so I had less for the house, food, vacation, – fun stuff. All so that I could enable MacDonald and the HBC leaders to get their fun stuff. Ok – ya got me – you played me good. I was played the fool. Never again with this megalopolis church business model raking in millions so that what – maybe 10% is used for good?

dee,

My thot is that Stetzer has been somewhat compromised re: objectivity – especially as it relates to MacDonald. A word-smith like Ed will be able in print to excuse or minimalize his actions but, personally, I will read what he writes with some scepticism. Like you, I appreciate Julie Roy’s and admire that she called-out Ed with the possibility of a conflict of interest.

Nick Bulbeck: This Wartburger certainly does.

So does this One.

Best regards,

God

elastigirl: it is beyond obscene for such a person to be a ‘pastor’, since his wealth is other people’s money given in good faith that it is going toward good causes, not the pastor’s personal wealth.

Such a good point. Often wondered why this isn’t more scrutinized or examined with care.

“I have seen spiritual revival happen all around the world as a result of Harvest’s ministry, and this church has played a critical role in my own spiritual development.”

The end justifies the means.

TS00,

George Orwell’s “1984”.

LeRoy,

Sadly, Ed has probably heard the vulgarities that MacDonald used in regards to him on the audio on this blog. Which means MacDonald expected to get something back from Stetzer. Stetzer was part of a quid pro quo. MacDonald was not his friend.

Lowlandseer,
‘
Oh, it’s an issue alright. He repaid the money to the church recently.

jyjames,

“it is beyond obscene for such a person to be a ‘pastor’, since his wealth is other people’s money given in good faith that it is going toward good causes, not the pastor’s personal wealth.”

jyjames: “Often wondered why this isn’t more scrutinized or examined with care.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++

ha… it’s funny, isn’t it.

professional christians concerned with doctrine pore over it, go through it with a fine-toothed comb, to make sure that it’s water-tight so their eternal destiny is safe, or so it can be enforced and argued (for laudable or scuzzy reasons).

as soon as money is concerned, “Oh, i didn’t know!” (you mean you kept yourself in the ignorant dark on purpose)

“it’s perfectly legal” (you mean you stopped your thought train right there and then and got off, and didn’t ponder is it fair? is it even ethical?)

funny how the ability to analyze data on vast spiritual and moral levels that are so ‘critical’ to the kingdom of God completely shuts down to a few wide-eyed burbles when it’s money.

SiteSeer: In my experience, such gifts do not come free of strings attached. You accept the gift, you’ve been owned.

Had this sort of thing offered to us. A couple years ago, we briefly attended a small group Bible study put on by another professor at the university where I teach. It was affiliated with a local “mega”, about 1,000 regular attenders (a mega for a largely rural county with under 50,000 people). One time at the prayers that they’d have at the end of each small group, we mentioned how our septic system was breaking down and we’d been told by a contractor it was likely to cost over $10K. We were not asking for a handout, just prayers.

A few days late,r my wife got a call from the wife of the husband-wife team (with the professor) who ran the study. Said she’d talked to her head pastor and they wanted to pay for everything. My wife turned her down and said she’d feel guilty accepting such a huge gift from a church she’d never attended, especially when we weren’t really in any kind of serious financial straits, and she didn’t want to be put in the awkward position of having to owe anyone anything. My wife said the lady got very snippy with her at this point. The husband called me the next day and when I told him the same as my wife had told his wife, he told me I needed to deal with my pride issues. The wife then called my wife and asked if we could come over and talk.

So we went and after having a nice enough dinner the wife told us she was very offended that we’d turned down her pastor’s offer, that we only thought the worst of him, that we needed to repent of our judgmental attitudes, etc. Now let me tell you, we’d never accused her pastor of anything untoward (we’d thought it, sure, but never once said a word to these people). The husband then started in, talking about the same, they kept taking turns, shouting us down every time we tried to explain that in all honesty, the offer from a stranger, especially when it came from donated money of people who very possibly had it worse than us, made us uncomfortable. They just kept getting more shrill and angry and shouting us down.

Finally, I’d had enough and raised my voice louder than theirs’ and refused to be shouted down and told them just what I thought (which I should’ve done days before), I figured their pastor was trying to land a couple academics and their large family for his church and thought he could make us feel obligated and I thought it was a rotten thing, frankly, to use other people’s money, donated money, to do it. I told him his mega had a lot of red flags of being a cult and there was no way I was interested in it or continuing a relationship with him or his wife. At that point, my wife and I got up and walked out on them, grabbing the kids and telling them we weren’t interested in another word they had to say, didn’t want their prayers, etc.

Any person even half decent in their position, when politely rebuffed (which is all we did at first), would’ve said “Oh, of course, we get it, very sorry to put you in that position, we understand.” But it’s obvious that they weren’t even half decent, at least their behavior wasn’t at that time.

Max: Mike Daniels: It’s not just cars, pastors were gifted with Harleys as well.

Thinking about those cars and Harleys… I can’t help remembering the story of that poor lady who asked HBC for a mattress for her son who was sleeping on the floor. “Nope. Let’s make her wait to see if her need is genuine. Don’t want to waste $ on a mattress for a kid.”

Friend: Same goes for the vast majority of government workers. They cannot and will not accept any gift above a specific dollar value; I have seen them turn down a rather ordinary lunch.

I had a government auditor at a laboratory I worked at once turn down my offer to buy him a soda, saying he couldn’t accept gifts. Throughout my 70 year tenure as a Southern Baptist, I sensed a certain entitlement attitude among some of the SBC clergy. I never once had a pastor refuse my offer to buy his lunch, but most of those were gracious souls not out to take advantage of the pew.

Mary27: I can’t help remembering the story of that poor lady who asked HBC for a mattress for her son who was sleeping on the floor. “Nope. Let’s make her wait to see if her need is genuine. Don’t want to waste $ on a mattress for a kid.”

“Whoever shuts his ears at the cry of the poor, he also will cry himself, but will not be heard.” (Proverbs 21:13)

dee,

Thanks for responding, dee. Your perspective is encouraging. Thanks for all you do. We’ll see.

Friend:
Law Prof,

What an awful experience! Even the MLM folk who tried to hornswoggle us had better manners.

Once had the leader of a phone calling ministry at a mega I attended (a real mega, 6,000+ attenders on any given Sunday) try to hornswaggle me into joining his MLM. My mother-in-law was herself hornswaggled into joining an MLM by the pastor of her church–who used the same MLM used to take advantage of several parishioners (he was eventually run out of the church). It’s not like Jesus didn’t warn us that dirtbags and frauds would try top take advantage of us as time went on.

Max: Yep, that’s Ed Stetzer in the rearview mirror.Now, I have to remember why we were creeping on him … oh yeah, he’s driving the VW gifted to him by the infamous James MacDonald.That creeps me out!

Stetzer knows that was unethical. It’s also possibly illegal. Perhaps this is why he has remained silent on many of the foibles of MacDonald, even though Ed is allegedly a journalist. I have no respect for the man at all now. I consider him just another liar, no better than Driscoll, MacDonald, MacArthur. Just another unethical dirtbag enriching himself at the cost of the truth.

S. Stroup: Most of all I’m saddened for the black eye these shenanigans are putting on the cause of Christ and all believers worldwide. It needs to be rooted out and get back to the basics of sharing the Good News.

Amen! It’s time to take the axe to the root of the tree. Pruning here and there just ain’t cutting it! Each time one of these charlatans is exposed, a lost world has yet another reason to say “See, there’s nothing to it.” As long as the pew is satisfied to live with an unholy pulpit, things won’t change. “IF My People … THEN Will I” … but will we?

dee: Stetzer did not answer me

Dee, it appears from the following post on Stetzer’s Twitter account that he’s been crazy busy of late:
“My staff mostly posts. Pls forgive me as I don’t see or reply much to msgs as I am on a book deadline & not checking”

As a “pastor”, he told his congregation that “I can’t do funerals, visits, phone calls, or meetings.” His time is so much more important than ours; I guess we should just leave him alone. The world (and his bank account) are waiting anxiously for his new book. He is probably alone somewhere in his VW cranking out the last chapter … it will be inspirational, I’m sure.

ishy,

“I still get harassed, and have made some people very mad when I tell them I will never buy anything from a MLM. That business model has done horrible things to people.”
+++++++++++++

the “moses” model for business, perhaps?

Law Prof,

Words fail me. About the people who tried to “buy you” that is. On the other hand there are many words for your response- all of them good beginning with “yes and amen”.

Law Prof: Had this sort of thing offered to us. A couple years ago, we briefly attended a small group Bible study put on by another professor at the university where I teach. It was affiliated with a local “mega”, about 1,000 regular attenders (a mega for a largely rural county with under 50,000 people).One time at the prayers that they’d have at the end of each small group, we mentioned how our septic system was breaking down and we’d been told by a contractor it was likely to cost over $10K.We were not asking for a handout, just prayers.

A few days late,r my wife got a call from the wife of the husband-wife team (with the professor) who ran the study.Said she’d talked to her head pastor and they wanted to pay for everything.My wife turned her down and said she’d feel guilty accepting such a huge gift from a church she’d never attended, especially when we weren’t really in any kind of serious financial straits, and she didn’t want to be put in the awkward position of having to owe anyone anything. My wife said the lady got very snippy with her at this point.The husband called me the next day and when I told him the same as my wife had told his wife, he told me I needed to deal with my pride issues.The wife then called my wife and asked if we could come over and talk.

So we went and after having a nice enough dinner the wife told us she was very offended that we’d turned down her pastor’s offer, that we only thought the worst of him, that we needed to repent of our judgmental attitudes, etc.Now let me tell you, we’d never accused her pastor of anything untoward (we’d thought it, sure, but never once said a word to these people).The husband then started in, talking about the same, they kept taking turns, shouting us down every time we tried to explain that in all honesty, the offer from a stranger, especially when it came from donated money of people who very possibly had it worse than us, made us uncomfortable.They just kept getting more shrill and angry and shouting us down.

Finally, I’d had enough and raised my voice louder than theirs’ and refused to be shouted down and told them just what I thought (which I should’ve done days before), I figured their pastor was trying to land a couple academics and their large family for his church and thought he could make us feel obligated and I thought it was a rotten thing, frankly, to use other people’s money, donated money, to do it. I told him his mega had a lot of red flags of being a cult and there was no way I was interested in it or continuing a relationship with him or his wife.At that point, my wife and I got up and walked out on them, grabbing the kids and telling them we weren’t interested in another word they had to say, didn’t want their prayers, etc.

Any person even half decent in their position, when politely rebuffed (which is all we did at first), would’ve said “Oh, of course, we get it, very sorry to put you in that position, we understand.”But it’s obvious that they weren’t even half decent, at least their behavior wasn’t at that time.

Glad to hear that you all had your eyes open and didn’t allow them to use what appears to likely have been emotional manipulation. Brings to mind a couple of films — Serpico, when the dirty cops were desperate to have Serpico join in so he became beholden to the corrupt system and couldn’t expose it, and It’s a Wonderful Life, when George Bailey astutely observes with them ankmis offering cash 50 cents on the dollar for building and loan shares that Potter’s not selling, Potter’s buying!

Jerome: “riding in Ed’s VW bug—felt like Kevin Bacon in Footloose”

I’m glad these new reformers have so much fun and fellowship when they get together … JMac’s VW was predestined for this, I suppose.

Gone from SWBTS’s chapel: the ‘Heroes of the SBC Conservative Resurgence’ Stained Glass Memorial Windows, according to reports today from ‘The Baptist Blogger’:

https://twitter.com/BaptistBlogger/status/1114521712245264385

“Our sources tell us the SWBTS stained glass windows have been removed. Waiting for pictures”

then, photos of the new, plain windows:

https://twitter.com/BaptistBlogger/status/1114527089045180416

Max: “Whoever shuts his ears at the cry of the poor, he also will cry himself, but will not be heard.” (Proverbs 21:13)

The Prophet Isaiah also had stuff to say about those turn their backs on the hurting and the needy.

Muff Potter: But Lord! Lord! didn’t we lead many to you so they could get ‘saved’???

“I never knew you”

So the deed is done Max. SBC has joined The Gospel Coalition. See BP

Ann,

Easter weekend of 2014 I gave my life to the Lord because of what happened to me at Harvest in Elgin. I was baptized there. That church will always have a special place in my heart because of Jeff Donaldson, not James MacDonald, but because of what James did, I can no longer continue to attend

Anthony: So the deed is done Max. SBC has joined The Gospel Coalition. See BP

No need for SBC’s young reformers to hide in the shadows. Calvinization of the SBC – by stealth and deception – is now largely accomplished. The Gospel Coalition = The Calvinist Coalition … the SBC fits in well with that crowd now.

Anthony: So the deed is done Max. SBC has joined The Gospel Coalition. See BP

“Some 7,000 evangelicals — including a significant contingent of Southern Baptists — gathered around an evangelism theme at The Gospel Coalition’s National Conference April 1-3 in Indianapolis.”
http://www.bpnews.net/52693/gospel-coalition-conference-focuses-on-evangelism

Speakers: Piper, Keller, Mohler, Duncan, DeYoung, Platt, Carson, Moore, Akin, and assorted other New Calvinist who’s who. The architects of the new reformation sweeping through the American church.

Yep, the dastardly deed is done. The silver has been exchanged. The SBC, a once-great evangelistic denomination, has surrendered its birthright for a bowl of doctrines of men. “Evangelism” to a New Calvinist is harvesting the elect, not reaching the lost of every tribe, tongue, and nation with the Gospel of Christ. There’s a vast difference in that, regardless of how the new reformers spin it. I’ve heard all the arguments – they just don’t stack up with Truth.

ishy: MLM Watch states that 99% of people lose money on MLMs because they end up spending more to stay in the MLM’s good graces than they sell.

Reminds me of most churches I’ve been part of. [Sorry, I get really snarky on Sunday mornings.]

I’ve ridden in the back of a vintage VW bug, although it wasn’t a convertible. Not an experience I would want to share with the world. But I’m guessing that the point was that it was Stetzer’s VW. Again, not a name I would drop.

Max,

The “predestination” as interpreted by most theologians today really are toxic to the gospel and the missions. The truth is : Only “IN CHRIST” has any of us been “chosen”. Outside of Christ no one can be chosen or elected by his/her merit or luck! What arrogance for us to think that we are so lucky to be the elect because we know a few bible verses and read a bunch of commentaries, and manage to preach up a storm to a big American crowd?

Somebody needs to shout from the mountain tops that only the Cross should be lifted up to draw souls to Jesus, not human intelligence or fame.

dee: They had a real problem with the Pressler window. Can you imagine having that guy up in a church looking at you? Gives me the creeps.

Yeah, I suspect that image of Judge Pressler was particularly creepy to chapel worshipers. You sure didn’t want to go in there at night. Whew! What a crew on those windows!! I wonder if they will gift them to the donors who paid for them? “Come get your window, Judge.”

Brian: why don’t the remaining SBC member churches not effected by the neo-Calvanist reforms break away from the SBC, start a new convention?

That’s possible, I suppose, but this ole guy is done with the bunch (after 70 years as a Southern Baptist). A split of that sort happened once before when the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship was formed. Southern Baptists have always been fussing and fighting about something … with member churches dividing over things ranging from the color of the carpet to the color of the preacher! With the New Calvinist takeover, I became weary with them … and discovered there’s life after SBC!

dee: John Piper if he got up and started waving his hands around.

“If”??? Can he do otherwise?

dee: I got out and am now in a denomination that wouldn’t know John Piper if he got up and started waving his hands around.

Er – is that the sort of thing he would do, then?















(Ken F beat me to it.)

ION: Cricket

Wartburgers will, of course, be keen for updates on the National Sport of Wartburg on Day 3 of the County Championship.

Joe Clarke, who bagged the season’s first century on Day 1, has just got his half-ton in the second innings as Notts remain in command against Yorkshire. They’re currently 229-3, a lead of 346. Incidentally, this is Clarke’s debut in County cricket. Bad light has stopped play between Northants and Middlesex with the visitors following on on 109-2, and needing 65 to avoid an innings defeat. Things are interesting at Taunton; Somerset were skittled for just 171 in their first innings, with Kent 84-2 at one point in reply. But Somerset rallied, dismissing the visitors for 209 to concede a narrow first-innings lead. They didn’t keep it up, though, and are currently 90-5 in their second innings, a lead of only 53.

IHTIH

Cricket update: Notts captain Steven Mullaney has just gone for 52, but Joe Clarke is still in on 91. Can he score two centuries on his debut? That might be unique…

elastigirl: bet it’s like shaking the sand and pebbles out of your shoes, and taking the visor off.

“so that’s what was bothering me… and wow, the headache’s gone, too!”

Yep, that’s pretty close! I guess I’m a slow-learner, but I finally came to this conclusion about much of the organized church:

“But alas for you, you scribes and Pharisees, play-actors that you are! You lock the door of the kingdom of Heaven in men’s faces; you will not go in yourselves neither will you allow those at the door to go inside.” (Matthew 23:13)

You pretty much have to go outside the camp to find Jesus these days – they have locked him out, too!

For traditional, noncalvinist Baptist churches, a healthy and happy future seems unlikely
within the SBC. While resisting the Fundamentalist for so long the reformers were sneaking in the back door.
The practical and fiscal loss would be enormous for what is now “the remnant.”
Max or someone please address this factor?

Law Prof,

Wow, what disgusting behavior…. maybe they felt “gulity”, or at least know somthing was “not right” about their system, and it is why they immediately started attacking you and your wife…
I have seen non-financial manipulation myself, but this story is incredibly blunt…
these stories need to be told… in fact we need to know, in general, which churches they are… maybe having their dirty laundary “out there” will reduce this disgusting behavoir..

Linn,

yes — being on a church or bible study roster means being invited to so many candle, or jewelry or cookware ‘parties’. why do christian women opt for these as ways to make money? why not an actual job with paycheck? are they not allowed?

Anthony: For traditional, noncalvinist Baptist churches, a healthy and happy future seems unlikely
within the SBC … The practical and fiscal loss would be enormous for what is now “the remnant.”

It’s a strange thing in SBC. The majority of Southern Baptists (numbering in the millions) still hold to non-Calvinist theology. The denomination distanced itself from its Calvinist roots after the Civil War and remained distinctly non-Calvinist in belief and practice for the last 150+ years … until Al Mohler began his campaign to Calvinize the SBC. Unfortunately, the SBC majority has been a silent, slumbering majority while the New Calvinists progressively gained control of most SBC entities, including leading seminaries, mission agencies, publishing house, and a growing number of churches – taking them over by stealth and deception. The “remnant” of whosoever-will-may-come Southern Baptists would not be able to salvage much of the denominational infrastructure at this point … the New Calvinists are too entrenched. The best they could do is to split from local churches which have surrendered to the new reformation and start their own non-denominational non-Calvinist works. Many are already doing just that, joining other non-SBC churches, or entering the “Done” ranks. Sad, but as you note “For traditional, noncalvinist Baptist churches, a healthy and happy future seems unlikely within the SBC.” I held on as long as I could … 70 years in fact! But most of those were good years, serving in churches that preached the Cross of Christ for ALL people.

Law Prof: Last time visiting long time Christian friends in another part of the state the wife tried the hard sell on my wife with her Plexus.

We invited a professor and his wife from a local Christian college over for a visit one evening, thinking we could have some spiritual fellowship with them. They promptly started promoting Melaleuca products. We kindly turned down their offer, but remained friends.

I suppose New Calvinism is sort of like a pyramid scheme when you think about it. Only a few elites ever reach the pinnacle, with an army of minions promoting their wares. Only Al gets a pink cadillac.

Max,

http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2011/07/i-thought-i-had-seen-it-allthen-i-saw.html

Wrote to Christianity Today last night – suggesting that Stetzer be removed as a contributing editor (for reasons you all know).

His web site (https://edstetzer.com/) reads, “…learn more about Christians at Our Best.”

Friend: Every time I praised them by name, the Christian college fans jeered them by name.

That kind of sounds like a present-day instance of “knowing them by their fruits.”

I seem to recall Jesus saying something about “what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart.”

Do these people read the Scriptures?

Friend: the Christian college crowd bayed and shrieked. They didn’t just want to win, they wanted to destroy

“Because lawlessness is increased, the love of most people will grow cold.” (Matthew 24:12)

Lynne: His web site (https://edstetzer.com/)

I do declare! Is that little pointy thing on Stetzer’s face the beginnings of a John Calvin beard?!

Max: You can take a “Stetzer Coaching Class” online for $9.97 per month (first month free).Good Lord, this guy thinks more highly of himself than he ought!

Cheap compared to Thom Rainer.

Linn: What I find really sad is when the pastor’s wife is selling some sort of MLM. It means either the pastor isn’t getting paid enough, or they don’t know how to budget. I was always busy on candle party night.

I knew a pastor’s wife who I know didn’t push MLM stuff because they really needed the money. It was one of the essential oils ones, and they really wanted to believe those oils were solving the world’s problems. So much for Jesus.

In the end, they are cults who lie and ruin relationships as much as any other cult. The history behind the EO MLMs is pretty sordid and involves multiple deaths. The Atlantic Institute has also done reports on thousands of injuries due to the lies of EO MLMs. I am in one of those reports–I’m deathly allergic to lavender and a representative tried to forcibly “prove” I wasn’t to their oil. She was wrong.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/10/09/how-essential-oils-became-the-cure-for-our-age-of-anxiety

dee: What in the world is wrong with pictures of the Apostles in action?

Well, Mahaney’s an Apostle, right?

elastigirl: isn’t it wrong to accept cash or gifts from other ministers/ministries when the people who gave sacrificially to them were told their money would be going elsewhere for a different purpose?

And if they had so much extra money that, after meeting expenses, they were using surplus to buy expensive gifts for friends, maybe they should have stopped harping on listeners to send money money money money

Mati: I guess the marketing gurus of MegaChurch(TM) have found that the old symbols are old and don’t sell?

Here’s a good site to search for some background on what is going on: https://auxano.com. I learned about them when my SBC church used their services. Also do some searches on Will Mancini. It’s all about branding and selling the brand. SBC and Lifeway use Auxano, but lots of other denominations and churches also use them.

Ken F (aka Tweed),

It’s pretty sad when ‘church’ becomes just another brand to market. I remember when I naively thought church was about learning more about God, and serving others. Was it really always about indoctrination and serving the hierarchy?

I really tried to go to a local Episcopal church yesterday, it being Easter season and all, but the more I read of their historical building and celebrity former members, I just couldn’t. I’ll just have to keep ‘doing God’ on my own for now.

TS00:
Ken F (aka Tweed),

It’s pretty sad when ‘church’ becomes just another brand to market. I remember when I naively thought church was about learning more about God, and serving others. Was it really always about indoctrination and serving the hierarchy?

I really tried to go to a local Episcopal church yesterday, it being Easter season and all, but the more I read of their historical building and celebrity former members, I just couldn’t. I’ll just have to keep ‘doing God’ on my own for now.

We are two peas in a pod. A lot in common.

Serious question. For those of us that are done with religion. Does their exist any hope of a church home in our futures?

mot:
Serious question.For those of us that are done with religion.Does their exist any hope of a church home in our futures?

Be in your own life and family a better manifestation of “the continuing presence of Jesus in the world” (my understanding of the meaning of Paul’s “the body of Christ” language) than the current churches. And pray that something better than the current institutions will come into being.

mot: Serious question. For those of us that are done with religion. Does there exist any hope of a church home in our futures?

Well, the way I look at it … there has always been the Church within the church. In my past church experiences, I asked God to reveal the genuine amongst the counterfeit in both pulpit and pew. After a season of listening and watching, He was faithful to do so. I admit I’ve been deceived a few times, but that was my fault for not paying closer attention and testing the spirits about me. So – long story short – I suppose you could still find a church home just about anywhere, even if you only identify spiritually with a handful of the folks attending a particular church (and that may or may not include the pastor!).

I keep reminding myself that this world is not my home, that I’m a citizen of another world, but like any Christian I desire true fellowship with other believers. The fact that you can’t find that at just any church in your community, is evidence that the American church is in need of correction in the path it is on. I don’t think we will see that as long as the pew is satisfied to live without revival among God’s people and a spiritual awakening in the nation. If/when we see a great multitude of church folks humbling themselves, praying, repenting, and seeking God’s face … we will see God hear our prayers, move in our midst, forgive our sins, and heal our land (his promise to us in 2 Chronicles 7:14). Unfortunately, I don’t see much movement in that direction yet. In the meantime, I will just pray that God will reveal His remnant to me in my area – they call it “remnant” because it is a small remaining quantity, a needle in a haystack, a rare and endangered species. I suppose there are at least 7,000 in my neck of the woods that have not bowed a knee to Baal … I’ve found a few of them already and we have “church” when we meet!

singleman:
I noticed this post at Charisma News. I’m guessing this will provide more material for Dee, Julie Anne and others.

https://www.charismanews.com/opinion/75859-are-these-christian-bloggers-tearing-down-the-body-of-christ

Since the article does not name names, I assume it is talking about blog sites such as TGC, 9Marks, Founders, Challies, GTY, P&P, and similar sites.

Max,

Charisma News has its share of strange material, that’s for sure. And yes, their promotion of Mark Driscoll has left me shaking my head more than once. However, there are other authors at Charisma who are worth reading such as former editor Lee Grady, who’s spoken out against charismatic excesses as well as spiritual abuse. Jennifer LeClaire, another former editor, has also spoken out against spiritual abuse. (I must admit a number of LeClaire’s other writings have left me with some facepalm moments, but she’s solid on the topic of spiritual abuse.)

singleman,

The Christian blogosphere is a better avenue to check and balance issues than magazine content, which tends to be more biased slam-dunk. For example, TWW commenters often have contrasting views on a topic which are sorted out in the exchange. Commenters come at an issue with various perspectives shaped by personal experiences – a format that provides valuable input to help arrive at the truth of a matter. I have to admit some Christian bloggers are long on blog and short on Christian, but there are many with integrity who sincerely desire to inform and warn as watchmen. I suppose Charisma attempts to provide a balance, as well, with its various contributors … but Driscoll?!!

Samuel Conner: Be in your own life and family a better manifestation of “the continuing presence of Jesus in the world” (my understanding of the meaning of Paul’s “the body of Christ” language) than the current churches.

Indeed! “As He is so are ‘we’ to be in this world” (1 John 4:17). If our families can’t see that in our lives, no use dragging them to church.

Nick Bulbeck,

” ISTM that we need to confront the question: what happens when a wolf preaches Christ?”
++++++++++++++++++++

only because my brain totally shuts off with most christianese words, i need some remedial tutoring:

what is a wolf?

elastigirl:
Nick Bulbeck,

” ISTM that we need to confront the question: what happens when a wolf preaches Christ?”
++++++++++++++++++++

only because my brain totally shuts off with most christianese words, i need some remedial tutoring:

what is a wolf?

I think that if one substitutes “predator” for “wolf” in the Pauline language one gets an accurate sense of both what he was worried about and what the present-day churches are facing.

Samuel Conner,
I agree.
“Predator” might be a better translation into today’s English than “wolf”.

Especially from what we now know of wolfpack behavior — wolves have more Class than these guys.

Noevangelical: They say that “HBC is a work of God.”

“If this doctrine or purpose or undertaking or movement is of human origin, it will fail; But if it is of God, it cannot be stopped” (Acts 5:38-39).

Driscoll has a smaller footprint in Christendom; Hybels is gone; MacDonald has disappeared. Mars Hill has been dissolved; Willow Creek is on the decline; Harvest Bible Chapel is in chaos.

Max: “If this doctrine or purpose or undertaking or movement is of human origin, it will fail;But if it is of God, it cannot be stopped” (Acts 5:38-39).

Driscoll has a smaller footprint in Christendom; Hybels is gone; MacDonald has disappeared.Mars Hill has been dissolved; Willow Creek is on the decline; Harvest Bible Chapel is in chaos.

How about their spreading spawn (what Dee calls “their church DNA”)?
And the continuing collateral damage?

wolf…

thanks for the input.

hmmm…. i’ve seen the word thrown around way too much. it seems that it’s the go-to word for anyone whose motives we’re uncertain about. even if it’s a one-off occurrence.

elastigirl,

If you could find another believer to do the outreach with you via prayer and humility before our Savior, who knows what God may do in your neighborhood? !

You may get a garden of flowers and fruits even if you have to deal with weeds here and there. A good season to sow seeds !

Muff Potter: Basically, Gordon’s article is saying:

Sit down and shut-up, you’re a sinner too!

That’s why the church is in the mess it’s in today. Too many of us sinners have sat down and shut up, scared speechless by “touch not my anointed.” Well, there is little evidence these days that the anointing is resting on the American church, so it would be best to speak up before we get farther off track … time to both comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable.

elastigirl: an invitation to a bible study from a total stranger would rightly scare anyone and everyone. and who knows what kind of dogmatists would come. eesh!

I may step on toes in saying this, but I have grown wary of group bible studies, whether in formal church or informal home settings. The difficulty from my perspective is that generally the people organizing these in formal church contexts are pursuing an agenda that generally will involve “communication of dogma” (of whatever flavor). The text will not be engaged on its terms, but for the purpose of promoting or defending the dogmas that the organizer wants to be embraced. At the other extreme, a highly informal kind of study — “let’s just try to ‘hear from God’ ” — is IMO likely to degenerate into complete subjectivity.

My private study agenda in recent years has been in pursuit of what one might call a “wisdom”/”understanding” agenda, trying to understand “how the present state of the Churches has come to pass”. That involves Scripture in the sense of “the history of how the churches have interpreted the Scriptures”. It involves dogma in the sense of ‘the history of the development of theology’.

Early on in this process, I imagined that I might be able to discern a “primitive christianity” that might be translatable into the present context, and I imagined that it would be desirable to do that. I’m no longer so sure that, even if one could accurately discern a “primitive”/”pure” early form of Christianity, that it would be either possible or desirable to re-instantiate that into the present context. (In that sense, I’m not a biblicist or big on “the regulative principle” — I view Paul’s counsel about the organization of the congregations he founded to be simple “good sense” — you want your visible manifestations of christian community to be led by people of good character).

Or, to put it another way, I suspect that the OT pattern of privileging “wisdom”/”understanding” as the highest “under the sun” good may be a better approach than studying in the hope of filling out the blanks in one’s private systematic theology. In saying this, I’m echoing Andrew Perriman who IMO makes a strong argument that we should read the Scriptures more as ‘history’ than as ‘theological system’

The hermeneutical challenge then becomes discerning our place, at this “present-time, remote-from-the biblical-events”, in the story of ‘God and His people’ that the Scriptures relate.

Lowlandseer: While the highlight of yesterday was riding around in the back seat of Ed Stetzer’s classic VW Bug, a close second was seeing this page from John Eliot’s “Indian Bible” in the Billy Graham Center Museum.”
If you click on the highlighted words “classic VW Bug” you’ll get a view from the back seat of the car!

A little momento from classic Dr Demento:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khf3t1GQZMw

My understanding is a wolf is “white.”(lykos)
This is how Paul addressed the Elders in Miletos. He was directly addressing the men as Elders, and identified some of them as being wolves.

I interpret this to mean they are older and leading men in the Faith. They have aging signs such as white hair. An example is an aging teacher, like Abraham Kuyper. He brought Spheres Theology to America and taught it at the Stone Lectures. Young men sat in the audiance and militantly engaged the Church and Society after receiving teaching, and the cycle continued.

Or they may be younger, but are “Elders” in that they possess natural leadership from youth. Example here is a Mohaney. He functioned as a “Elder” early on. This is reported to have started when he encountered the Give and Take study group. Give and Take evolved and eventually Soveriegn Grace appeared. Young men sat through his teaching and replicated his work as the cycle continued.

Brian,

elastigirl,

I’ve never read Roseria Butterfield’s books. But, I’ve listened to her on the radio, doing outreach from the home.

John Wycliffe wanted to put His word into everyone’s hands.

Now with the so-called covenants, they are now trying to take away the freedom found in His word.

Brian,

“I’ve never read Roseria Butterfield’s books. But, I’ve listened to her on the radio, doing outreach from the home.”
++++++++++++++++

outreach….

(how we go again….. please someone give me the remedial definition of outreach)

in the meantime, i’m having a hard time imagining Ms. Butterfield’s ‘outreach’ as not being some kind of indoctrination. she seems too much the product of the institution. a company woman.

I will never forget the day I became a “done”. Since that day I have not attended church in a church building except at the invitation of my grand children. What I’ve been doing since that day is working back through the things I was taught (and much of it was very good) while making my beliefs and my faith my own. In the past I had taught Bible studies, attended conferences, and read much on my own. From birth right up until the day I left home at 19 the Bible was read after meals together. My church experiences up until the year before I became a “done” was not all bad. Suddenly though, everything changed. The “what” that changed made no sense to me until I started reading here (TWW), and learning that our new “pastor” had a plan that didn’t involve me or my family unless we were deemed to be “on board”, which we weren’t. Although I’m now a “done” I’m always thrilled when someone finds a community of believers to gather with. Yet, I do not need that. Two or three gathered in Jesus’ name is all I require, and not necessarily on a schedule. I was involved in church “work” the first 50 years of my life in such a way that I failed completely at understanding that what I was doing was not even biblical, it was just the “done thing”. So in keeping with that, I’m now a Done One.

Samuel Conner: group bible studies … “communication of dogma” … promoting or defending the dogmas that the organizer wants to be embraced …

= New Calvinist “LifeGroups”

SiteSeer: Whoa, they obviously had their plan all set but you had the gall not to respond as desired! How bizarre and manipulative.

I wonder how many young and inexperienced believers would have fallen for it.

We might have had we been younger and less experienced.

elastigirl: a community of folks who simply are after the higher ideals of God: kindness, generosity, helpfulness, respectfulness, patience, humility

Yes. And I imagine that such a community, to the extent that it did have dogmatic commitments, would be less concerned that people’s ideas conformed to those than that their lives resembled “humanity according to the true image of God.” This seems “back-to-front” from the viewpoint of historic protestantism (and, I suppose, catholicism). But I suspect that it is right; it is much closer to the way Old Israel was (this is not to ignore the very great flaws that were there), and much closer, seemingly, to what Jesus seems to have been aiming at in His teaching.

Paul seemed to have two essential, sine qua non, dogmatic commitments: “Jesus is Lord”, “the one true God raised Jesus from the dead.” I suspect that all else is decoration.

Max:
Back to Stetzer and the VW.

What should Stetzer’s response have been when offered the car by MacDonald?

(1)Gee, thanks!
(2)Oh no!Thank you, but please sell it to buy a mattress for that poor kid.

“Heck no, James, so kind of you and all, but you know I can’t take this, I’m a journalist, we cover your church in news and opinion pieces, for goodness sakes. Can you imagine the stink? And anyway, just wouldn’t be right, bro. Just give it to some teenage kid who needs a car.”

Law Prof: “Are you on board?”

Uhhh, I don’t know … Where is this ship going? Is Jesus on board?

Law Prof,

Any bets that Stetzer will wiggle his way out of this? The VW news has been circulating in cyberspace for a week without a peep out of the religious press. Paying for the car after he was exposed may have got him off the hook, despite the fact that he shouldn’t have taken it in the first place for the reasons you cite. These guys are elusive.

Samuel Conner,

“Yes. And I imagine that such a community, to the extent that it did have dogmatic commitments, would be less concerned that people’s ideas conformed to those than that their lives resembled “humanity according to the true image of God.””
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

i’m thinking that in such a group the starting point for everyone is a given that we all have different ways of seeing the details on *how* and *why* we live out our lives and our faith…

and a given so what? what does that have to do with anything? we’re let’s convening, working together, and enjoying each other’s company to do something 100% good and productive.

i’m sure i’m repeating myself to some degree… (just kind of tickled with the ideas we’re discussing)

TS00: I really tried to go to a local Episcopal church yesterday, it being Easter season and all, but the more I read of their historical building and celebrity former members, I just couldn’t. I’ll just have to keep ‘doing God’ on my own for now.

In the end, we’re all actually ‘doing God on our own,’ really. Our faith is within each of us and will be put to the test throughout life. Even if we have found supportive, honest churches and friends, it is our own faith that must evolve and endure as life hits us and we learn and grow. I think we all seek a community of other believers who will rejoice with us when we rejoice, mourn with us when we mourn, and be companions through the journey of life. But I have heard more often than not, that churches have failed to be of real support to persons going through vicious trials, that church friends tend to turn away, as well. This was my own experience. Its nice to have a place to go to celebrate holidays, to hear an encouraging word, to connect with others trying to live the life of faith, to feel like you’re ‘doing the right thing,’ to feel like your kids are getting a good foundation. I wonder how much of it is an illusion we cultivate. In the end, whatever is not genuine gets stripped away.

SiteSeer: In the end, we’re all actually ‘doing God on our own,’ really.

When we appear before the Judgment Seat, we will stand alone not with the congregation of First Baptist Church.

Max: Uhhh, I don’t know … Where is this ship going?Is Jesus on board?

And I, the fool, looked around, felt the pressure of those eyes on me and all my friends sitting round in the circle, and muttered “Uh…yeah.” It was only later that I grew a spine and finally stood up to the system and the pastor and became persona non grata, thrown out on my bum, first from the elder team, then finally from the church.

Max: Back to Stetzer and the VW.

What should Stetzer’s response have been when offered the car by MacDonald?

(1) Gee, thanks!
(2) Oh no! Thank you, but please sell it to buy a mattress for that poor kid.

Definitely #2 then followed up by some serious thought on why he would do that and what am I getting myself into being involved with him?

Law Prof: A third possibility, that they genuinely think it’s just fine to accept huge gifts from the subjects of your reporting and that you can be objective and completely above board even while so doing, I think very unlikely.

Well, let’s see, as a journalist covering MacDonald… on the one hand, you’ve got gifts of automobiles, on the other hand, you’ve got threats of child porn being planted on your computer… such a dilemma…

Nathan Priddis,

Pain/anxiety too high today, unable to absorb the Spheres Sovereignty theology and understand it’s impact. How did it impact Christianity here in the U.S.?

Jack: I had retired from commenting but did a Max-like comeback special…

For which, thanks.

SiteSeer: some serious thought on why he would do that and what am I getting myself into being involved with him

He knew what he was doing. To be successful in the Christian Industrial Complex, these guys need and use each other.

SiteSeer: We had an aggressive couple at one church selling vitamin supplements for outrageously inflated prices and their whole spiel was filled with false medical information. They’d invite anyone new over for lunch after church then hit them with the sales presentation.

Well, if it quacked like one, paddled in the pond like one…
It probably was a Ponzi scheme.

Max: What should Stetzer’s response have been when offered the car by MacDonald?

(1) Gee, thanks!
(2) Oh no! Thank you, but please sell it to buy a mattress for that poor kid.

I’ll go with (2)!!! Thanks for the laugh!!!

Law Prof,

It’s uncanny. I have 5 homeschooled kids too. 😉 Grown now.

Brian,

Nathan Priddis,

This sounds a bit like the “seven mountains” concept that one hears in discussions of “the new apostolic reformation”.

Max: Whew!His head must be spinning!

Will Mancini apparently thinks highly enough of James MacDonald to list his church as a model:

Contemporary Examples
Vertical Church is an association of worship-centered churches pioneered by James MacDonald. He begins his book Vertical Church by asking, “Is your church experiencing a window-rattling, earth-shattering, life-altering encounter with the living God? That’s not a common experience in North America today. But it should be. And it can be.” Worship that seeks and welcomes God’s presence is a priority for churches like this.

http://www.willmancini.com/page_id-5861-preview-true

I don’t know how much of contemporary evangelicalism is being shaped by Auxano or whether Will Mancini is merely riding a wave. Someone with more time and skill than me could probably figure it out.

Headline currently on Christian Post’s site:

“Pastors on ‘Burnout:’ We Forget We’re Human”

There may be honest pastors out there doing their best and get burnt out.

However, the types of pastors this blog covers (and the ones I usually see), their problem is not that they forget they’re human, but they think they are Despotic Deity figures.

*rolls eyes*

https://www.christianpost.com/voice/renegade-christian-bloggers-and-the-fascination-of-failure.html

Samuel Conner:
Brian,

Nathan Priddis,

This sounds a bit like the “seven mountains” concept that one hears in discussions of “the new apostolic reformation”.

Yes it’s the same thing. Only aged.

Ken F (aka Tweed),

The odd thing to my mind is that, per Jesus, one should conceal one’s righteousness, while evil should be exposed. The consensus pattern today is for “great man” church leaders to a) promote themselves as doers of great things for God and b) hide their misdeeds.

For years I have been wondering whether there is really much of a relationship between “what we are seeing in the name of ‘church’ today” and what we read about in the New Testament. The above oddity might be a piece of evidence in favor of the answer “not much.”

Ken F (aka Tweed): As a side note, it’s hard to find a nefarious evangelical leader not associated with Auxano. Here is Mancini promoting Driscoll’s comeback: https://www.willmancini.com/blog/same-grit-new-love-the-church-values-of-mark-driscolls-new-church-plant-the-trinity-church.

I’ll be keenly interested to see what kind of culture is actually fostered in MD’s new enterprise. One would like to think that harsh, overbearing church leaders are able to change. Is “the Gospel” powerful enough to do that in their hearts? I confess to being somewhat skeptical. Mancini wrote of “lines that one doesn’t want to ever cross again” — as if the bad consequences of things that were done in the past create knowledge of limits that one ought not to exceed in the future — behavior restraints, so to speak. But perhaps the heart is not changed; is simply a bit wiser or more prudent in the way it pursues its goals.

drstevej,

Nathan Priddis,

Nathan, thank you. 🙂

elastigirl: i simply want to work with others in making the world a kinder, cleaner, healthier place. (doctrine and theology don’t accomplish these things — they should, but they don’t.)

This brought to mind some thoughts I loved in Bradley Jersak’s ‘A More Christlike God’:

“Some thinkers say that even calling God a ‘being’ falls short, or claiming that God ‘exists’ says too little. Rather, God is the very ground of being; God is existence itself, whatever that means. Those who talk this way assert that nearly anything we claim about God already belies our hidden desire to stand over, box in and control him. Language, words, doctrine, theology – aren’t these less than God? And yet don’t they frequently function to shrink the Creator of all into a manageable doctrinal specimen we can pin down and dissect? Isn’t it more convenient to cage him within out tiny, overconfident minds, where he must parrot our own lofty thoughts?
the stubborn fact is that whatever we say about God or for God with great certitude is sifted through the thick veils of our religious traditions, cultural assumptions and personal interpretations. Skeptics and gnostics ask, “What can we really say for sure about this God?” Rightly so.”

Max: “The next time we visit our favorite Christian news website or blog, before we click on the comment button, we should pause to consider whether we are lending our voices to the accuser of the brethren …”

Pardon me while I throw up . . . If the brethren are pursuing wickedness, may their accusers come forth boldly. Is this guy planning on shutting down God’s Day of judgment by imploring him to not slander or accuse the brethren?

Many who call themselves ‘Pastor’ will hear the sad words, ‘Away from me, I never knew you.’

TS00: This brought to mind some thoughts I loved in Bradley Jersak’s ‘A More Christlike God’:

“Some thinkers say that even calling God a ‘being’ falls short, or claiming that God ‘exists’ says too little. Rather, God is the very ground of being; God is existence itself, whatever that means. Those who talk this way assert that nearly anything we claim about God already belies our hidden desire to stand over, box in and control him. Language, words, doctrine, theology – aren’t these less than God? And yet don’t they frequently function to shrink the Creator of all into a manageable doctrinal specimen we can pin down and dissect? Isn’t it more convenient to cage him within out tiny, overconfident minds, where he must parrot our own lofty thoughts?
the stubborn fact is that whatever we say about God or for God with great certitude is sifted through the thick veils of our religious traditions, cultural assumptions and personal interpretations. Skeptics and gnostics ask, “What can we really say for sure about this God?” Rightly so.”

TS00: This brought to mind some thoughts I loved in Bradley Jersak’s ‘A More Christlike God’:

“Some thinkers say that even calling God a ‘being’ falls short, or claiming that God ‘exists’ says too little. Rather, God is the very ground of being; God is existence itself, whatever that means. Those who talk this way assert that nearly anything we claim about God already belies our hidden desire to stand over, box in and control him. Language, words, doctrine, theology – aren’t these less than God? And yet don’t they frequently function to shrink the Creator of all into a manageable doctrinal specimen we can pin down and dissect? Isn’t it more convenient to cage him within out tiny, overconfident minds, where he must parrot our own lofty thoughts?
the stubborn fact is that whatever we say about God or for God with great certitude is sifted through the thick veils of our religious traditions, cultural assumptions and personal interpretations. Skeptics and gnostics ask, “What can we really say for sure about this God?” Rightly so.”

Main things I know about God are than what He has done (at least the recorded stuff). the fact that He said His name was “I AM” (itself kind of cryptic and mysterious), the fact that He said He was “love” (what human could ever be described with one word?), and the fact that if we’ve seen Jesus, we’ve seen the Father. Not much material for a systematic theology there.

elastigirl: is this the only person in ‘the organization’ who Jesus warned to be careful of?

I don’t think that the Scriptures give us an exhaustive manual of everything that can go wrong in the leadership of a congregation, and there is no comprehensive “catch-all” term for people who are not suited to lead in the churches, or toward whom one would be wise to be cautious. There are, certainly, a number of lists of bad behaviors and warnings to both not live this way oneself and to not associate with people who profess to follow Jesus but whose lives are characterized by behavior that suggests that “love of God and neighbor” is not really what they are about.

Perhaps of more use are the stereotypical motives that appear to underlie bad behaviors. These are not enumerated in one place anywhere, but one can see these “themes” in the lives of the people in the biblical narratives — things like “fear of man” (ie, excessive concern what other people think, which is contrasted with “fear of God”), “love of money”, “love of comfort/pleasure”. There are probably others, but those three come immediately to mind. These are things that are, or ought to be, good in themselves, good gifts of the Creator, to be received with thanksgiving. But if they become what one lives for, “inordinate” love of them can lead to all sorts of bad choices and bad outcomes. I think this might be what is going on in the “wrath dynamic” of Romans 1; God is displaced from His rightful place in peoples’ lives (one can argue what that is; not my purpose here) and inordinate love of lesser things leads to bad choices and ultimately to bad outcome.

Perhaps it would be sound to say that one should be cautious toward people whose loves/passions/commitments are not properly ordered (and again one could argue what “proper” is). I think that’s a fair “high level” description of the problems in HBC leadership.

Something that I think comes through at least some of the HBC stories is that people had uneasy feelings about the higher-ups before they were prepared to put a biblical label on what the could clearly identify as a forbidden behavior. I don’t think we need to carry lists around in our heads, though lists can be useful. Generally our God-given good sense is an excellent “early warning” system.

Dave,

Thank you for posting this. Yes, this is correct. Please check your facts Wartburg. Everyone is reading your blog like it is “gospel truth” because of all the fall out at HBC. It’s doesnt take long to fact check and find that Highpoint Church has not be affiliated with Harvest for years and the name change did not happen recently.

Ken F (aka Tweed),

It’s funny how marketing attracts people and yet, at the same time, it tends to be the death of the genuine. It destroys what it intends to promote.

elastigirl: i’ve observed some people described as ‘a wolf’ who are simply emulating behavior of others. and those others could very well have been emulating behavior, too. as we’ve discussed here at TWW, church culture is thick with its own style of procedures, speech, facial expression, body language, voice intonation…

(now i’m really repeating myself)

I think you have to know someone to a certain extent before you can know whether they are sincere or are manipulators and users. In today’s church culture, do we even have that opportunity? I think there is an illusion that we ‘know’ these public figures when we’ve only heard them give presentations or have read their formal writings, which might even be ghost written. Do we have any idea how they treat people in private or how they pull strings behind the scenes to get what they want?

I’m not really interested in taking spiritual lessons from anyone whose character I don’t have access to discern anymore. First of all, I’ve found it’s unnecessary – spiritual growth is not something that’s imparted by professionals, it comes from humbly trying to live your life developing the fruits of the Spirit, and, secondly, there are so many overblown phonies out there, each one trying to convince us they are indispensable to God. .

SiteSeer,

This! Once the spell is broken, the absurdity is so obvious, isn’t it? Tell me again why God needs to use ‘you’ (Mr. Pastor) as a go-between for him and me? Why does he need to speak to ‘you’ so that you can speak to me? Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t that what Jesus came to put an end to?

‘The Church’ is simply a reincarnation of false temple religion, filled with the same sort of white-washed sepulchres and sons of their father. It is now much easier to understand why the people were so misled and in their sway. Funny how much The Church might qualify as that which received the fatal blow, yet managed to come back to life.

Renee:
Dave,

Thank you for posting this. Yes, this is correct. Please check your facts Wartburg. Everyone is reading your blog like it is “gospel truth” because of all the fall out at HBC. It’s doesnt take long to fact check and find that Highpoint Church has not be affiliated with Harvest for years and the name change did not happen recently.

I didn’t know that anyone was making great hay about them being connected. I just thought the point was made that Stetzer apparently received substantial gifts from them also. Maybe I missed the posts where people were oohing and aaahing about a connection. If that post is here, I missed it (but haven’t pored over every post). So I’m not sure what you’re getting at here. In all honesty, it seems possible that you’re trying to find some trivial misstatement that someone made so that you can say “Ah ha!” That is a very common thing, you know, when dealing with an apologist for a church that’s being credibly accused of corruption. Ignore the 10 things that are devastating and well-documented and find one trivial comment that someone makes that’s not even central to the argument and not even entirely inaccurate and seize upon it to discredit the whole. My apologies if you’re honestly trying to be godly about this and warn posters at TWW to be careful so that the above phenomenon doesn’t happen—that may be your motivation, I can’t say.

Of course, it may be a distinction without a difference, because many churches are connected at the top through the leaders, who go to the same conferences and on vacations together and hobnob and such, and there is a genuine and substantial connection that truly affects the congregation and direction of the church, it’s just not one that the congregants are privy to. This is so common in evangelicalism in the U.S.

..and if you want to nitpick the timing of the name change, that too, is ridiculous. It wasn’t even central to her point, Renee. Why not focus on the substance of her argument rather than picking at the periphery? Is it because you have no answer for the substance because you know in your heart that the substance is right? That’s what I interpret your behavior as indicating.

Max,

Further, if these “Megas”, and “Mega wantabes”, and all the “9-Marks” and Calvanista’s, for good measure, were open and honest with church finances, had independent elder/deacon leadership, and applied the same standards to themselves (leaders) that they do to the pew peons, much of TWW would go away.

It is these “unaccountable” abuses that fuels the blogs….. leaders that fall, and are heldaccounable, is not really news, or fuel for these blogs…. that would be more of the “whats new, humans being humans”…. it is the “coversups” and abuse of the ABUSED that gets everones dander up…..

But of course, the critics of these blogs do not mention this…..

elastigirl: then we could talk about how to make the world’s best blueberry pie, how to make vegetables delicious, and best BBQ techniques.

I think you get what heaven is going to be like . . . won’t it be grand when all the detritus is washed away and we can get down to joyful, creative living?

Jack<
Jack,

Jack,
TWW has been a community for healing for me and your posted response to Mot is my situation to the absolute letter.

Your comments were profound and will be reflected on for some time. Thank you for expressing what I have been feeling.

elastigirl: “I’ll be keenly interested to see what kind of culture is actually fostered in MD’s new enterprise. One would like to think that harsh, overbearing church leaders are able to change. Is “the Gospel” powerful enough to do that in their hearts?”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

“the Gospel”…. nope, brain shutting down again. no longer computing.

i know the holy spirit is powerful enough. (that one i can compute)

Needed to think about this a bit before engaging;

I think we need to recognize that the term “the Gospel” is used with a surprisingly wide range of meanings.

In the synoptic gospels, “the Gospel” is John’s and Jesus’ announcement of the imminent arrival of “the Kingdom of God.” This is what the people were commanded to believe when the text says that Jesus was calling on people to “repent and believe the good message.” (the question of “repent from what” is a fascinating historical question; I like NT Wright’s proposal that Jesus was calling Israel to repent of its military messianic ambitions that ultimately bore the bad fruit of the disastrous AD67-73 and AD132-135 rebellions against Roman rule.)

In Acts and in the letters of Paul, “the Gospel” has morphed slightly into Paul’s announcement that the God of Israel has enthroned Jesus as lord and granted him authority to rule and judge humanity (proved by God having raised Jesus from the dead); the call to repent is oriented toward the relinquishment of pagan worship.

Some time later, in the Latin theological tradition (and especially in recent centuries in Protestantism), “the Gospel” came to be understood as “the good news that there is an easy way you can avoid the bad news”, with the “bad news” being that “you are going to experience eternal conscious torment” on account of your sins (the most grievous of these sins being that you have not embraced the ‘good news’ that Jesus provides an easy way to avoid the ‘bad news.’) “. If that seems a bit circular, I think it is.

We’ve come a long way from Jerusalem, baby.

——-

In my snippet that you interacted with, I was using “the Gospel” in a still different sense of “the story of Jesus and Israel” (more or less the remarkable narrative that we see in the synoptic gospels).

My sense of the matter is that this story, when it sits in a heart for a long time, is able to change that heart. The different visions of “the gospel” evoke different responses. The “solution to the bad news” evokes a basically self-interested self-preservation response; IMO that is not a great way to start following Jesus, as he calls us into paths that may involve suffering for the sake of others.

The “able to change” response that I had in mind was more along the lines of “this is a deeply beautiful story [and all the more beautiful for being true, which I do believe]. I would like my life to increasingly reflect the beauty of this story”. I think that’s a fair “take” on the Romans 8:28-29 vision of God’s purposes to conform people to the likeness of the Son.

People who are attracted to “the Gospel” out of a self-preservation motive and who stay in a self-focused mode ever after may not be deeply changed by “the Gospel.” That’s more or less what I was suggesting, and I think it’s a fair interpretation of problematic leaders such as MD or JM.

This is also compatible with Siteseer’s observation (with which I concur) that people with personality disorders may be less able to change (not necessarily their fault, I add — one does not choose one’s hereditary brain structure endowment).

JimmyMac should change his radio program to Ride on the word.

elastigirl,

I agree that we tend to over-think our theologies and in the process we risk detaching them from the biblical narrative.

I used to embrace the widespread evangelical consensus view of “the gospel” as “the good news about the easy way to avoid the bad news”. As I grew skeptical of the consensus vision of what “the bad news” is, I began to doubt the counterpoint vision of what “the good news” is.

I think it might be helpful to distinguish the various kinds of “good news” that one can discern in Scripture from “ the Gospel” as that term is used in the NT.

God is love.

God is close to the humble, contrite and brokenhearted.

God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.

God intends to transform people into the likeness of the Son.

God raises the dead. God will ultimately renew the Creation and be all in all.

…and on and on and on

These are all “good news.” They are not “the Gospel” as that term is used in the NT.

What do I think is appropriate wording for “the Gospel” in our day?

I’m not sure, and as there are already many variations on that, it might be an act of hubris to suggest yet another.

Here’s an attempt that I hope is not an “act of hubris”:

Evangelicals like to speak in terms of “what do you need to believe or do in order to be saved?” and they tend to think that the answer to that question is that is “the Gospel.”

So I’ll adopt that posture for the sake of argument and then use Paul’s affirmations to “back into” a working proposal for what “the Gospel” is.

Per Romans 10:9-11, which gives Paul’s minimalist description of “how to be saved”, perhaps one could say that:

“the Gospel” is the message that “Jesus is Lord and that God raised Jesus from the dead.”

Believing this message saves people.

(but the questions don’t end there; one could argue what sense of “believing” is efficacious. I think it is deeper than simply ‘mental assent’, having met a number of mentally assenting sociopaths over the years.)

This brief “definition” is also a pretty accurate summary of what Paul preached all over the Roman Empire.

———–

elastigirl: do you believe in explosive dunamis power of God? and that God exercises it with people and creation, for good and for help?

or do you believe that God’s primary way of impacting people is through the process of time as people ponder the information in the story (as you said)?

Far be it from me to constrain how it might please the Creator to work in the hearts and minds of His creatures. Maybe I’m an unusually hard-hearted person who took a long time to be changed (assuming that I have been changed; maybe I’m self-deceiving). Others may change more quickly, or even suddenly.

Back to the OP, it does seem that some don’t change at all.

elastigirl,

It took me a long time to change, but from the beginning, it was the beauty of the story of Jesus that held my attention, more than the promise of rewards or the threat of punishments. I think that “aesthetics” is a valid understanding of the attraction of the message of Jesus. “let your light so shine that men may see your good works and give praise to your Father in heaven”

I think that something has gone wrong in the thousands of years since the story was written down. I suspect that “the power of the Spirit” may depend in some way on the quality of the communities that claim the name of Jesus; that it is not simply an exogenous influence that is applied by God, but that it may in some way be endogenous. “Grieve not the Spirit” is a negative command the other pole of which is “love one another” and all the other “one another” commands that fill the letters of Paul to the congregations he founded. Before Paul set pen to parchment, Jesus commanded to “love one another” and promised to send the Spirit.

We tend to think of ourselves individually as “temples of the Spirit”, but I think that Paul’s vision of the “temple occupied by the Spirit” was more nearly of communities of “love one another” followers of Jesus being corporate temples in the midst of which God was pleased to dwell by His Spirit.

I like to try to keep my thinking precise in terms of the “good/joyful” “news/message” being what we can discern from Scripture — “that God has made Jesus ‘Lord’ and that God has raised Jesus from the dead”. But there are all sorts of associated “good news” that accompany this central core message. That is compatible with your vision of the many implications of what God has done in and through Christ.

One could even say that churches like the “love one another” “Holy Spirit habitation” communities that Paul founded are themselves a kind of good news; communities like that are places where people can find “help in time of need.”

One of the things that dismays me about the present situation is that “visible christian community” is being discredited by what is being done in the name of “church.”