Image by Ryan Ashton
A stiff apology is a second insult… The injured party does not want to be compensated because he has been wronged; he wants to be healed because he has been hurt. Gilbert K. Chesterton
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It official. This has been the busiest week for TWW in its almost 10 year history. I’m sorry for being a bit late in approving comments. Many abuse advocates, myself included, have been slammed with requests from the media for both interviews and background.
Yesterday morning I received a request for the audio of Al Mohler making a sick joke at the expense of SGM victims. Thankfully, I had put this into a post so I found it quickly. Al Mohler Extolls CJ Mahaney at T4G While Joking at the Expense of SGM Victims. Does Money Play a Role in the Relationship?
What was happening at the time of this despicable joke? SGM victims, families and supporters were protesting outside of the T4G 2016. One woman, walking into the conference, yelled “Liars” to the protestors. CJ Mahaney, a best friend of Al Mohler, Mark Dever and Ligon Duncan (They are the 4 in T4G), was introduced on the stage by Al Mohler prior to Mahaney’s speech.
One more point is important. You will hear a number of people in the audience laughing at this joke by Mohler. All of those people are responsible for causing pain to the SGM victims. They should be ashamed of themselves but a quick “I’m sorry” to God at the end of the day means “never having to say you’re sorry to the victims, right?”
According to Al Mohler, his wife Mary refers to the 4 in T4G as Al’s little playgroup. It seems like the 4 boys are having lots of chuckles. In the audio below, you will hear Al joking about looking up CJ Mahaney on Google. Listen carefully and you will hear the laughs. Start listening at the 2:00 minute mark to hear the *joke*. However, it is worth listening to the section before this.
Much to my surprise, I was notified that an apology by Al Mohler was just minutes away. It appears this joke played a part in his apology. That is why documentation is necessary. You never know when it becomes critical. I never thought I would hear something like this. Don’t be alarmed. I’ve not gotten sucked into believing that this apology comes from pure motives. I believe that Mohler, along with other SBC leaders, have found themselves with their backs against a wall. The SBC is getting linked with the RCC and it isn’t pretty.
Once again, Robert Downen nails it in Leading Southern Baptist apologizes for supporting leader, church at center of sex abuse scandal. Let’s look at a few things.
The infamous statement vouching for CJ Mahaney.
Mohler regrets the infamous statement that he wrote with Mahaney’s other BFFs: Mark “Captain, O My Captain” Dever and Ligon Duncan. TWW’s good friend, Todd Wilhelm, posted the entire statement and has given me permission to post anything I wish from his wonderful website. So, here it is, winsomeness T4G style!
STATEMENT FROM MARK DEVER, LIGON DUNCAN, and ALBERT MOHLER
May 23, 2013
We are friends who have been brought together for the gospel. Over the last several months, we have wanted to speak publicly to the issues that have related to our friend C. J. Mahaney. A Maryland judge’s recent action to dismiss a lawsuit against Sovereign Grace Ministries offers us the first opportunity, and responsibility, to speak to this issue. We could not speak to the issues involved so long as they were raised only in the context of an action in the civil courts. We have never made a public comment with regard to claims and counter-claims in a civil lawsuit, and we will not violate that principle now.
Claims presented in a civil lawsuit seeking financial compensation are beyond the ability of the public to render judgment. Often, such claims are even beyond the ability of a court to deliberate. To comment on such claims is irresponsible, since no one apart from the court and the parties directly involved has any ability to evaluate the claims presented. If the filing of civil litigation against a Christian ministry or leader is in itself reason for separation and a rush to judgment, no ministry or minister is safe from destruction at any time. Furthermore, the effort to try such a case in the court of public opinion prior to any decision rendered by an authorized court is likewise irresponsible.
We have stood beside our friend, C. J. Mahaney, and we can speak to his personal integrity. We can make no judgment as to the truthfulness of the horrifying charges of sexual abuse made against some individuals who have been connected, in some way, to Sovereign Grace Ministries and its churches. Our hearts must go out to anyone, and especially to any child, who suffers abuse at the hand of anyone. In such a case the legal authorities must use the full power of the law to investigate and to prosecute any perpetrator of such crimes. We must take any responsible action to protect the vulnerable, and we must act immediately to inform legal authorities of any charge or claim of sexual abuse, and do so without delay. Our first response must be to call the police, to act to protect the child or young person, and then to proceed to biblical church discipline when the facts demand such a response.
If a Christian leader is accused of any wrongdoing, those to whom he is accountable must investigate the charges and then deal responsibly with the evidence. If a criminal accusation is made, Christians have a fundamental duty to inform law enforcement officials. This does not, however, preclude or mitigate the church’s responsibility for biblical church discipline.
A Christian leader, charged with any credible, serious, and direct wrongdoing, would usually be well advised to step down from public ministry. No such accusation of direct wrongdoing was ever made against C. J. Mahaney. Instead, he was charged with founding a ministry and for teaching doctrines and principles that are held to be true by vast millions of American evangelicals. For this reason, we, along with many others, refused to step away from C. J. in any way. We do not regret that decision. We are profoundly thankful for C. J. as friend, and we are equally thankful for the vast influence for good he has been among so many Gospel-minded people.
Our heart goes out to anyone who has ever suffered abuse of any kind. Our emphatic encouragement would be for anyone who has ever suffered such abuse or knows of anyone made vulnerable to such abuse to contact law enforcement officials without delay. We must then allow the law enforcement agencies and the courts to do their proper work. When criminal charges are filed, the public is then presented with evidence upon which it can draw a responsible judgment. On matters of protecting the vulnerable, Christians know what judgment must be made. We side with the victims.
Our hope and prayer is that Christ’s healing and health will come to all parties involved in this matter and that justice and righteousness will prevail for all. May every true victim of any injustice be vindicated. May every doer of wrong be exposed. And may all of us speak no further than we can responsibly speak.
Those who minister in the name of the Lord Christ bear an inescapable duty to live and to minister in a way that is above reproach. Those who teach, reminds James, will face a stricter judgment. [James 3:1] May everything we do, everything we teach, and all that we are be measured against that standard.
Together for the Gospel,
Mark Dever, Ligon Duncan, Albert Mohler
These supposed *gospel leaders*
- Vouched for Mahaney’s personal integrity.
- Claimed that no accusations of direct wrongdoing were ever made against CJ.
- Claimed he was simply charged with founding a ministry and for teaching doctrines and principles that are held to be true by vast millions of American evangelicals.(!!!!)
- Refuse to step away from Mahaney.
- Do not mention the lawsuit was dismissed, not due to the merits of the case but due to an expired a statute of limitations.
Al Mohler apologizes for supporting CJ Mahaney
Al Mohler said for the first time publicly that he regrets his embrace of C.J. Mahaney, the former leader of the non-Southern Baptist group Sovereign Grace Ministries, now known as Sovereign Grace Churches.
Interestingly, Mohler did not apologize directly to the victims. He did not make an attempt to contact them. Instead, he made a generic apology thru the Houston Chronicle. To who? Those who subscribe to the Houston Chronicle? For what is he sorry? He said a lot of unkind things about the victims, about those who defended the victims, and about those who spoke against the leadership of CJ Mahaney. He alienated a lot of people and his actions led to The Gospel Coalition to block people on Twitter who supported SGM victims. His actions led to men like Joe Carter thinking it was appropriate to insult those who defended victims. Real apologies should be directed to those who we’re harmed by his actions. If he needs to meet an SGM victim, I can introduce him to one who could probably get a bunch of other victims to meet with him.
Mohler claims he didn’t really understand the charges against Mahaney. Is anyone buying this?
“I believe in retrospect I erred in being part of a statement supportive of (Mahaney) and rather dismissive of the charges,” And I regret that action, which I think was taken without due regard to the claims made by the victims and survivors at the time, and frankly without an adequate knowledge on my part, for which I’m responsible.”
Frankly, this is codswallop. Mohler was made well aware of the charges as were many other leaders in The Gospel Colaition and T4G. They simply did not want to hear them. Victims reached out to all of them. They saw the protestors. Remember, Mohler is a man who does a daily Briefing purporting to give an analysis of world events. He either is brilliant (as followers claim) or he is not. I believe he is making an unbelievable excuse.
The joke heard round the world.
I was shocked when I heard about this joke and documented it. (See above.) I believe the surfacing of this joke played a part in this apology.
Mohler also apologized for a joke he made while introducing Mahaney at a 2016 conference that was being protested by former Sovereign Grace members and others.
“What I did was wrong and caused hurt to the victims and survivors who felt that their experience had been trivialized and dismissed,” Mohler said. “And I grieve that, I apologize for that, it was wrong. I would never make such a comment again.”
Did Mohler ever denounce, even mildly, his friend Mahaney as he is attempting to claim?
Mohler said he should have been more forceful in his denunciation of Mahaney.
“Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes,” he said. “I should have been very clear about insisting on an independent, credible third-party investigation.”
Mohler claims he should have made a more forceful denunciation. What denunciation? When? Mohler never denounced Mahaney and is not going to get away with pretending he even tried to do so *a little.* Mohler was in for Team Mahaney and never wavered until now.
Also, Mohler didn’t call for any sort of investigation against Mahaney. This is more baloney and appears to be attempting to downgrade the level of his utter lack of action and compassion.
Mohler claims he should have *heard from* victims and sought expert advice.
Once again, this is utter nonsense. Victims attempted to reach out to T4G, etc and got nothing but the left boot of fellowship. Essentially they were kicked in the pants. Is Al Mohler telling us that he only thought about getting advice from authorities this week? Sorry-not buying it.
“I should have said nothing until I had heard from those who were victims and who were making the allegations. I should have sought at that time the advice and counsel of agencies and authorities who were even then on the front lines of dealing with these kinds of allegations.”
Danny Akin, President of SEBTS, joins in with the “CJ, I hardly knew ye” club.
Read this statement
Akin said he has not had a close relationship with Mahaney since a speech Mahaney was slated to give at the seminary was cancelled.
On Thursday, he said he was wrong to support Mahaney without properly investigating the allegations. He also criticized how Mahaney and Sovereign Grace handled the allegations.
“Do I think that Sovereign Grace handled the accusations brought against them well?” Akins said. “No, I don’t. I think they could have been far more transparent. I think they could have been far more forthcoming. Even to this day, there’s still a lack of clarity.”
He added, “I absolutely think they’ve handled (the allegations) poorly and that they have not been as transparent as they should have been or could have been, and (that they) could have saved a lot of people a lot of grief,” Akin said.
Akin knew all about the claims of the victims in the SGM debacle. This is simply a case of rats deserting a sinking ship. However, I’m not going to let them get away with this. Read this again.
“I absolutely think they’ve handled (the allegations) poorly and that they have not been as transparent as they should have been or could have been, and (that they) could have saved a lot of people a lot of grief,
Danny Akin and Al Mohler-you handled this poorly. You refused to hear the victims. You bear responsibility for this years long devastating and disdainful silence towards the victims. You could have done something. Instead you played tribal games.
Mohler’s defense of Mahaney encouraged other members of the Gospel Coalition to accuse advocates for victims as having a Javert like obsession with Mahaney
Mohler is one of the leaders of this group of like minded Calvinist friends who adore Mahaney. His own friendship and advocacy for Mahaney led to A Statement from Don Carson, Kevin DeYoung, and Justin Taylor: Why We Have Been Silent about the SGM Lawsuit.
In this statement, they resorted to outright lies.The lawsuit was dismissed due to the statute of limitations, not anything else.
So the entire legal strategy was dependent on a theory of conspiracy that was more hearsay than anything like reasonable demonstration of culpability. As to the specific matter of C. J. participating in some massive cover-up, the legal evidence was so paltry (more like non-existent) that the judge did not think a trial was even warranted.
They attacked bloggers who cared about the victims and then minimized the thoughts of one young woman who claimed she had been raped at the age of 14 at an SGM event.
Reports on the lawsuit from Christianity Today and World Magazine (among others) explicitly and repeatedly drew attention to C. J., connecting the suit to recent changes within SGM. He has also been the object of libel and even a Javert-like obsession by some. One of the so-called discernment blogs—often trafficking more in speculation and gossip than edifying discernment—reprinted a comment from a woman who issued this ominous wish, “I hope [this lawsuit] ruins the entire organization [of SGM] and every single perpetrator and co-conspirator financially, mentally and physically.”
And they love CJ because they all got to laugh!
We are not ashamed to call C. J. a friend. Our relationship with C. J. is like that with any good friend—full of laughter and sober reflection, encouragement and mutual correction. He has regularly invited—even pursued—correction, and we have given him our perspective when it is warranted. While the admission of friendship may render this entire statement tainted in the eyes of some, we hope most Christians will understand that while friends should never cover for each others’ sins, neither do friends quickly accept the accusations of others when they run counter to everything they have come to see and know about their friend. We are grateful for C. J.’s friendship and his fruitful ministry of the gospel over many decades.
Obviously, these three Mahaney fanboys need to repent and apologize.
How this group of men could cause such pain to victims is beyond me. They sure know how to march lockstep and not one of them questioned their stance. How long will we need to wait for apologies from them?
Here is a list of other names who should apologize. All of these men were CJ gushers.
I bet our readers can add others.
- Denny Burk
- Matt Chandler
- Mark Dever
- Jonathan Leeman
- David Horner
- Carl Trueman
- Kevin DeYoung
- Joe Carter
- Tim Challies
- Matt Chandler
- Justin Taylor
- Jared Wilson
- JD Greear
- Wayne Grudem
- John Piper
- D.A. Carson
- Thabiti Anyabwile
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Want to see what I had to put up with from these CJ fanboys?
Sometimes it was hard on me and I needed a stiff spine. These men were mean. I always believed that I was telling the truth when I advocated for SGM victims. However, Joe Carter of The Gospel Coalition (senior editor) and the communication specialist (I’m not joking) for the ERLC decided to stick up for CJ. Demonstrating his loyalty to his clan, he called me, along with Julie Anne Smith and Zach Hoag, “pathologically dishonest.” His lack of winsome behavior to me on Twitter was so over the top, I got a call from The Christian Post which documented this despicable exchange.
Today, Carter went after the Denhollander’s who had a similar experience.
Then, he said this:
I then sent him this link.The Gospel Coalition, Christian Bloggers Spar Over Sovereign Grace Ministry, C.J. Mahaney on Twitter. Assuming he is taking a peek at this post, let’s go through his claims. Odds on me getting an apology?
- He accused me of being pathologically dishonest without giving one example of said dishonesty. Also, pathological dishonesty is a psychiatric diagnosis but I do not see where Carter went to medical school.
- “After Parsons asked him to clarify what “slander” he was referring to, Carter responded “Have you not intimated that CJM was involved in a coverup of sexual abuse?” linking to a recent post on her site where a guest blogger claimed that Mahaney was guilty.”
- Parsons defended herself, claiming that “everyone has a right to express their point of view. Also, I tend to believe the victims.”
- He accused me of defamation. “Carter challenged Parsons, arguing that by publishing posts which argued that the civil lawsuit was true, she was still defaming Mahaney and other SGM leaders’ reputations.” Carter demonstrates a serious knowledge gap when it comes to defamation.
- I offered to have him meet with some of the SGM victims but he refused to answer me. This is not a man, or an organization, that seeks after truth if they don’t like what the truth is.
I like this closing thought.
Parsons said she was disappointed with how the interaction with Carter transpired.
“I really wanted to build a bridge [with Joe] and that was my goal and my hope and that’s since been destroyed. And that’s where I stand,” said Parsons. “I had no animosity to Joe Carter in that exchange. I looked at it as the potential for positive opportunity to bring understanding in this whole mess and I’m actually very sad.”
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First?
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Numero uno?
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An attempt at covering his posterior. Mohler’s either not that bright or thinks the rest if us aren’t.
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First?
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It’s really sickening to see all the accolades that Mohler is receiving for his “model” apology. It’s as if his offense was just a lil’ blip, not really a big deal and so should be easily forgiven and forgotten. Time to move along. Nothing more Mohler should say or do because he has graced us all with his “model” apology.
But was it a “lil” thing or was it a pretty monstrous thing that a man entrusted with leading young people did. I copied this link. This young man admits that he blew off the SGM accusations because the leaders he looked up to blew them off. So these leaders caused the young people to stumble. What does this say about Mohler and Company’s qualifications for leadership? What does the Bible say about a man who causes young people to fall? (And yes this man is responsible for his own sin but leaders are responsible to lead)
https://twitter.com/emschumacher/status/1096517655064907778
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Al Mohler has proven himself to be amoral and inept.
He should prove he is a good Christian man and not in it for the power, attention, or money and step down.
The Southern Baptist Convention is not sorry sexual abuse happened. They are sorry people are talking about it.
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Mohler and friends haven’t even begun to address the issues nor the apologies they owe people!
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I hope these leaders come clean. BTW- here’s CJ’s response. He’s still in full denial/refusal that he did anything wrong- https://www.sgclouisville.org/from-the-pastors/post/a-response-to-recent-media-reports
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More Breaking News: MOhler has issued a more thorough apology. I am willing to wait and see if there is any fruit that this is genuine.
http://news.sbts.edu/2019/02/15/statement-r-albert-mohler-jr-sovereign-grace-churches/#more-navigation
Of course SGM & SGC Louisville have issued their typical responses:
https://www.sovereigngrace.com/sovereign-grace-blog/post/february-15-2019-press-release
https://www.sovereigngrace.com/sovereign-grace-blog/post/february-15-2019-press-release
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At least AM had sense enough to attempt an apology.
C.J. on the other hand is a pompous ass.
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Sadly, Mohler will likely never address the real issues that have created an environment where abuse could occur regularly within the SBC and SGM, as that would force him to admit that the hyper-complementarian theology he taught is a perversion of the Bible that abusers can use to justify their abuse rather easily. Admitting that would mean the flow of cash coming in from T4G would dry up, and it would actually require courage and integrity from Mohler, two traits which he and the T4G crowd lack, and the victims and those who advocate for them (like TWW, Julie Anne Smith, and Rachael and Jacob Denhollander) have in spades. I pray that one day Mohler and Co. will realize the damage they’ve done and repent for the good of the church, but I think that I have a better chance at winning the lottery than that happening anytime soon.
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Talk about an exhausting week … between the Houston Chronicle series and the other statements and apologies and denials and etc. Anyway, there’s one paragraph in Dr. Mohler’s statement on Southern Baptist Theological Seminary’s website that we need to note (as several on Twitter have done, the first I saw being Jacob Denhollander).
http://news.sbts.edu/2019/02/15/statement-r-albert-mohler-jr-sovereign-grace-churches/
Keep this going, survivors, advocates, and bloggers!
In one way, it was surprising this week to see such a flood of tweets and blog articles that reposted archived documents, articles, videos, etc., giving evidence to how long and how deep the Mohler-Mahaney-SBC-SBTS-SGM/SGC-TGC-T4G industrial complex had been going on.
In another way, it’s perfectly understandable. Part of advocacy and of survivors sharing their experiences involves drawing together information and documentation. SGM survivors and family members and their advocates have done this for decades, others of us for years.
This makes a difference. It really really does. The truth being posted can’t make anyone change, but it can make it harder (if not impossible) for them to keep hiding. “That fact should serve to encourage survivors and their advocates to maintain such pressure.”
I remember in the movie *Spotlight* how Mike Rezendes, one of the reporters on the team, feels they need to stop researching and start publishing, as they have the full story on one of the child abusing priests. Their editor, Marty Baron, tells them they need to keep going. If they want to promote prevention, they have to crack the system of cover-up that allows abuser priests to keep on abusing.
One story and justice, or the whole system and get both justice and prevention. It’s taken a lot of people persevering a long long time to get the kind of breakthrough that happened this week. More to go, but it’s a significant turning point in perhaps both justice and prevention.
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Lily,
Thank you for sharing this. Definitely uplifting.
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If you buy it, you buy it. If you don’t, you don’t. And you can turn your back on it all (Not GOD) but the SBC and walk away, knowing that it’s now way too twisted to go back to any kind of truth. Everybody do what you want. It’s a free country…
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I will go one further.
This teaching does not merely provide an excuse for abusers, it creates abuse. And I do not mean figuratively. I mean literally. The essence of this faulty teaching does not simply facilitate, but generates a mindset of abuse. It persuades men that women are on a different level than men, and that they do not have the inherent freedom to be, think and do as their spirit-led conscience dictates.
The error is in introducing a priesthood of men between women and God. Whether pastor, elder or husband, all such go-betweens are unscriptural and unhealthy. And on top of the tragic number of women who have experienced ‘hard’ abuse and bullying, there are countless more who are victims of the ‘soft’ bullying of once loving, accepting husbands who have been brainwashed into believing they have the right to control and manipulate their wives. For their own good.
I have not only seen this terrible tragedy, I, and so many friends, have lived this terrible tragedy. Our marriages and our lives have been devastated. Our hopes and our dreams have crumbled, and we limp into old age feeling as if we were robbed of something very valuable. We ache at the damage we know has been done to our own children, boys and girls alike, and we pray for their forgiveness and their healing.
This teaching has done unimaginable damage to an entire generation of believers, who wrongly put their trust in mere men. God forgive and help us.
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Authentic (more than simply words) repentance is accompanied by fruit. “Bring forth the fruit of repentance.” (Matthew 3:8, John 3:8)
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You raise an important point. Here are 3 examples of unhealthy “godly leader” husbands:
husband David Larsen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkyUxNmEU4I (wife, Teri Jendusa-Nicolai)
husband/church leader Stephen Allwine and wife Amy Allwine
husband/missionary pastor Nathan Leuthold and wife Denise, Valentine’s Day 2013.
(Google the last two to see the stories.)
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Nope. Unacceptable fake apologies.
When Mohler wrote ” The Humiliation of the Southern Baptist Convention”, it was all about the poor little SBC. IMO, this is just an effort to keep selling the books and keep those tithes, donations, tuitions, and Lottie Moon Christmas offerings rolling in. The SBC “leaders” didn’t have a peep to say until the dirt was publically exposed!
It’s all about arrogance and $$$$$$!
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Yep. I would qualify as one of those “countless” ones. The teachings in the BFM2000 almost destroyed our marriage when I woke up and took a stand. Things are still a bit rocky. I can’t help but still be wary…….. and angry. My husband preaches from time to time, but I haven’t attended church since Feb. 2016. He doesn’t dare say anything to me about it!
I’m under a lot is stress physically and mentally right now, but I ain’t puttin’ up with it!
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My hope is that this will lead to some meaningful prevention of future victims. But there is no way any of these men will regain my trust or confidence. They have shown what they are. They have always been smooth talkers and their apologies are more smooth talking, from a cornered position. If it weren’t for the secular media they would never, ever, ever have done a thing about this situation or made any semblance of caring or an apology.
I remember a day on Twitter when people were trying to get Anyabwile to at least look into the allegations for himself and he refused, would not look, would not hear, would not even entertain the possibility that it mattered.
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You have a good point.
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John Piper has remained silent about the recent activity even though he so publicly stood by Mahaney: https://baptistnews.com/article/mahaney-gets-support-from-john-piper/#.XGfm2RhME0M.
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I don’t think any of this will take until the problems in their theology is confronted.
Their theology puts women as a subhuman race created to “help” man, functionally making them slaves.
http://powerscourt.blogspot.com/2008/04/bruce-ware-on-constitutional-inequality.html?m=1
https://adaughterofthereformation.wordpress.com/2016/07/11/eternal-subordination-of-the-son-and-wayne-grudems-systematic-theology/
Their theology puts everyone in a hierarchy, and demands that anyone who is not these leaders “submit” to mere men who usurp the authority of God.
9 Marks of a Church
Why Elder Rule? https://www.gty.org/library/questions/QA203/why-elder-rule (note the use of “rule” throughout the article)
Their theology believes that man is totally depraved whether he is in a church or not, but posits that the end justifies the means for pastors and elders, while everyone else should receive church discipline anything those elders don’t like, including thinking for themselves.
https://founders.org/2017/02/21/the-depth-of-depravity/
A Google search for “John Piper worm”: https://www.google.com/search?q=john+piper+worm
Most importantly, they minimize Christ in multiple ways, by their support of Eternal Subordination of the Son, by avoiding preaching/writing on the gospels, and by talking about themselves and each other more than Christ.
http://www.reformation21.org/blog/2016/06/the-eternal-subordination-of-t.php
Or just watch any of their panels and count how many times they mention God, Jesus, and each other, like Max has suggested. It’s quite educational.
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Rosie,
With all due respect, CJ has said nothinhg here. His pawns have spoken for him as they always do.
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Very well done, again, Dee.
I hope this paltry “apology” serves a greater purpose and that is to open the floodgate. Perhaps other defending CJ dudebros will feel the necessity to out-do these initial apologies and jump all over themselves to see who can best apologize.
If nothing else, they are providing great entertainment.
Sadly, again, at the expense of their victims.
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Meanwhile, the Vatican has defrocked the former cardinal Theodore McCarrick. Statutes of limitations have expired, but the Roman Catholic Church found that he sexually abused adults and children.
That message that “at least we’re not the Catholics” might now take on a different meaning among those with something to hide.
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Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
I’m sorry Nancy. I will pray for you, and the many women who suffer under false authority. Many wonder it is silly to call it suffering, when there is no physical threat involved, but the threat to your soul is just as real, and perhaps more frightening. No one has the right to control another person, period.
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“Mohler was in for Team Mahaney and never wavered until now.”
Not long ago, it seemed that “Team T4G” was invincible. When T4G became T3G, I suspect that the remainder of Al’s little playgroup worried this day would come. Thus, they had their script ready lest they get whittled further to T2G, T1G, and 0. “Mahaney who?” took a while … “Mohler who?” will take some more doin’.
Do Southern Baptists at large really give a big whoop about such behavior by their leaders? Remains to be seen. Will the SBTS Board of Trustees do the right thing? I doubt it.
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Ken F (aka Tweed),
Guys like Piper seem to never react to news that guys the pump up have done terrible things. Here he is promoting Doug Wilson in 2009
https://youtu.be/kkCoCDDOmOY
There is no comparable video of him calling attention to Wilson’s coverup of abuse by a seminary student and blaming it on the poor girl’s father or his marrying a know pedaphile to young woman and then praying for them to have children when he knew that as soon as they had kids the husband would be barred from seeing them.
I really think there is a code among these famous pastors to keep their mouths shut about each other. That is the only explanation for why they are so hard on the moral failings of their congregations and the “world,” but are so silent about their peers in “ministry.”
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“He either is brilliant (as followers claim) or he is not. I believe he is making an unbelievable excuse.”
Well, he does have a BIG stack of books you know. Mahaney’s promotion of Dr. Mohler as a genius was brown-nosing at its best. Brilliant? No, better descriptors for Mohler would be crafty, wily, sly, duplicitous. Think about it, he has been successful taking over the largest Protestant denomination in America which has contrary religious beliefs and practices to those that he holds! He claimed the SBC throne by clevely moving the chairs around to place Mohlerites in charge of SBC entities. I’ll grant him one thing … he is certainly a bright strategist. Brilliant? Nah.
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Wondering how they plan to remarket the T4G brand.
Together -three- the gospel just doesn’t have a winning ring to it, does it?
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So it’s not all bad, then.
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Oh, since Mahaney’s exit, they expanded “Together for New Calvinism” with the cream of the crop … you can see their mug shots here: https://t4g.org/about/
The American church will continue to feel the heat of their brand for a while. But God …
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Bah. I’d like to see him try to beat me in a show of humility.
You’re all rubbish.
Up Yours,
Roger Bombast
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Well, he did tweet the following when the Houston Chronicle report came out: “You shall not spread a false report.” But, Piper will bail when he needs to; he won’t let his personal brand get too interwoven with bad-boy Southern Baptists.
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Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
I’m praying for you Nancy.
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Obligatory reminder that Doug Wilson published a monograph called Southern Slavery: As It Was, which was partly aimed at making the topic less embarrassing, by pointing out that slavery is in the Bible.
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This is the primary reason I offer comments, as a reluctant participant in the blogosphere. I’m an old guy, who ought to be fishing or whittling. But, I’m concerned that my grandchildren will not be able to find a church where they can truly be free in Christ, without an authoritarian leader hammering them with aberrant belief and practice. So I speak while I have breath and pray every day the last line of your comment “God forgive and help us.”
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Max,
So these guys have set themselves up as the high priests of Priesthood of Believers?
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😉
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On behalf of all our grandchildren, thank you. When the last straw landed on me, my own offspring witnessed the aftermath. Since that time I have returned to church, but my conscience, and respect for offspring, prevent me from insisting on church participation. I hope future generations will find a church worth finding. Meanwhile, God knows all of us.
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Exactly! And convinced their followers that it is good and necessary. Much of modern ‘progress’ has consisted of brainwashing people into not listening to themselves and putting their trust in so-called authorities. We have traded away our God-given autonomy for a mess of pottage called ‘convenience’, ‘science’ and ‘technology’. They offer us all the ‘answers’ and the utmost in ‘solutions’ to any dis-ease. If I was brave I might add ‘democracy’.
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Oh yes, that’s why the New Calvinists diminished long-standing Baptist doctrines of “Soul Competency” and “Priesthood of THE Believer” when they revised the Baptist Faith and Message in 2000. Mohler was on the revision team (surprise, surprise). The pulpit can’t control a believer when they realize they have direct access to God themselves! It drives them crazy; authoritarians don’t want you to be free in Christ.
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I think this can’t be emphasized enough. It’s not enough that the SBC bigwigs came out and said, “oh, sorry, we didn’t realize it was quite that bad,” but the people they associate with in these organizations like TGC and Nine Marks and their meetings like T4G need to be put under pressure as well.
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Max and TS00 –
Mindboggeling: They must not fear God.
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Ken and Muslin,
I anticipate (with sinful glee, I admit), watching these foolish leaders outdoing one another with statements of “repentance.”
Only time will determine truth and visible efforts at repentance will be determined by compensation to victims and church society as a whole.
Will they change ther modus operandi?
Will they put victims above their reputations?
Will they change deeply evil and hurtful polity?
Disbanding the High Priesthood dudebro T4G might be a good start.
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Statements of regret… big whoop. They are a matter of public relations.
While it’s nice to hear a change in tune from tinny party line of double standards and duplicity, Al Moher’s and Danny Akin’s statements have everything to do with them and are expressly for their benefit.
Restitution is in order.
(more to come!)
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“His lack of winsome behavior to me on Twitter was so over the top …”
Well, that certainly doesn’t prompt me to run out and buy Joe Carter’s new book “Field Guide for Parents” … when he attempts to deceive adults with childlike charm and innocence. New Calvinism has certainly attracted quite a cast of characters!
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From the Houston Chronicle article:
Mohler also said he did not think it was necessary to return any of the roughly $100,000 that he said Mahaney’s organization has over the years donated to the seminary.
Does that surprise anyone? Of course not.
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(based on some nifty tweets i saw)
Restitution. Productive restitution.
Al Mohler, Danny Akin, JD Greear, Russell Moore, YOU pay for the independent 3rd party investigation into SGM and CJ Mahaney.
Rally your enabling friends & pay for it out of your own personal wealth.
You used your influence to champion CJ Mahaney so he would maintain his celebrity status in the evangelical marketplace. I have no doubt he has profited significantly from your promotion and endorsement. In all your symbiotic networks, you have profited. And you know it, too.
but now CJ is a liability, isn’t he. and now we are treated to your statement of regret.
it’s not entirely correct to say the victims got nothing. you threw sand in their eyes by your glib comments.
you through acid on them by what you did, what you said. by what you didn’t do. by what you didn’t say. All of which benefitted you.
YOU pay for the independent 3rd party investigation into SGM and CJ Mahaney.
Not from the coffers of the organizations you run. From your own personal wealth.
YOU make it right.
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Absolutely.
I had a recent conversation with a (male) seminary prof that left me badly shaken afterwards. He is the most kind, thoughtful “servant leader” complementarian you could possibly find, and a personal friend of mine. Yet I realized after that conversation that he did not see me (a woman) as a theologically informed, Spirit-formed person in my own right.
Without even first hearing where I was coming from, he asserted all of his “biblical” opinions about what I was thinking and doing all wrong. (I’d been discussing my need to address a conflict with a Christian male colleague, and the moment I said “need,” he told me that I was being selfish and co-dependent, even manipulative – and he quoted Titus and told me I should be “gentle.”)
(By the way, the conflict with the Christian male colleague I was trying to describe to the seminary professor had to do with common sense dynamics of abuse. I wasn’t even arguing theology, but he didn’t even listen to that extent.)
I’ve become convinced that complementarian theology isn’t just an academic, theological debate, nor is it just about well-meaning Christians who want to be “biblically faithful.” Complementarianism is not “God” or “the Bible.” It is a manmade lens through which we view God and humanity. It is actually a heterodox view that does actual damage to the body of Christ. Jesus and St. Paul were far more radical than we’re willing to realize.
I want to have a face to face conversation with this seminary prof. I still do not want to argue theology. What I do think he needs to realize, however, is that his theology is actually harming his interactions with women.
He has to take responsibility for that, the way Eric Schumacher did in his apology to Rachael Denhollander. The Holy Spirit can work in human hearts, despite bad theology.
Boz Tchividjian is great in talking about complementarianism. He’s my model for addressing the issue. He just points out, don’t be naive – this theology is actually an additional risk factor to women. So how can you comps bend over backwards to mitigate the risk, and address how you are viewing women as less-than, both inside and outside the church?
Maybe over time, it’s conversations like this that will generate Spirit-driven theological change…
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I would think that every Southern Baptist, even with a little knowledge of the facts and a touch of common sense, would see through their masquerade. But that has happened yet. Southern Baptists have put these guys over the education of SBC’s next generation of preachers! Talk about influence!!
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Ken F (aka Tweed),
I’m probably out of line here but it seems that many who normally and enthusiastically express moral outrage are strangely silent – Falwell Jr, Franklin Graham, Mike Huckabee, Jen Hatmaker, Robert Jeffers et al. Please let me know if i’m mistaken. Praying. For a renewal of sound biblical exegesis and relavent application of the same and the end of errant theological systems and “church bosses”.
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Only if a human heart is humble and repentant before God. New Calvinist theologians are some of the most arrogant, mean-spirited folks on the planet … they alone hold truth (or so they believe); the Holy Spirit can’t break through that if you keep Him outside your theological bubble.
I pray that happens soon. In the meantime, there is a “spirit”-driven theology sweeping across the American landscape that is doing much harm to the Body of Christ. There are to be no distinctions in race, class or gender when we gather as one in Christ … a pulpit which tells and treats you otherwise will give an account before God.
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““I should have said nothing until I had heard from those who were victims and who were making the allegations.”
+++++++++++
should you’ve, now….
Al Mohler, take the time to find out who the victims are on your own. Seek them out yourself.
Drive yourself to where they are. No chauffeur this time. And you can leave behind the stanchions and velvet ropes. you’ll have to risk the riffraff, of course. and you will have to open your own car door.
Initiative, Albert. Take it upon yourself to seek out the victims. They have faces. You could actually…. meet them. Listen to them. And hopefully begin to understand.
You could do this, Albert. You really could.
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Agree completely.
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Thank you to all of you for continuing to shed light on all these abuses. I grew up in a church with a youth pastor who abused one of my best friends for years. He has suffered greatly into adulthood. Decades later when he tried to confront his abuser, there was zero repentance. Satan is the great deceiver and man’s pride is a perpetual stumbling block. Both rob us of life! Please continue to be courageous in confronting lies, abuse, selfish deception, arrogance and pride in the body of Christ. I pray that we all will grow in courage to be iron that sharpens iron, so the ministry of Christ can thrive and his creation can live in freedom. Lord, in your great mercy, we pray for truth, justice, and freedom.
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Eli,
“He is the most kind, thoughtful “servant leader” complementarian you could possibly find, and a personal friend of mine. Yet I realized after that conversation that he did not see me (a woman) as a theologically informed, Spirit-formed person in my own right.”
++++++++++++++++++++
so much for ‘servant leadership’.
i knew the first moment i heard/read that term that it was loaded. that it was a trick.
i hope you do speak with the seminary professor, and speak very frankly and very directly. whatever shock & discomfort he might feel from being addressed in this manner by a woman is not something you are responsible for.
he actually tried to school you on co-dependence…
explain to him that in his naivete he required you to be co-dependent. asking you to be gentle makes you responsible for men’s fragile egos.
(i realize it is very easy for me to make these suggestions, sitting here in my warm bed whiling away the morning with my cup of black current tea)
i support you, Eli.
(as indirect as it is)
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Jenn Grover,
http://news.sbts.edu/2019/02/15/statement-r-albert-mohler-jr-sovereign-grace-churches/#more-navigation
“At the time the allegations surfaced, I did request that CJ and the ministry participate in an independent investigation, and I was pointed to the investigation that Covenant Life Church had commissioned.
I did not realize until this past year that SGC and its leaders had not participated in that investigation, nor was I equipped to know the shortcomings of how that investigation was conducted.”
+++++++++++++++++++++++
what’s with the passivity?
why didn’t you equip yourself, Al? like so many others did?
crimany…. Al wasn’t equipped… Al should have heard from the victims….
passing the buck to others. stellar leadership, right there. 😐
what a web he’s weaving
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I have noticed that complementarian men need to be babied, pitied, coddled, and pampered on more than none complementarian men do. They are so feeble.
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“I wrongly believed that an investigation had been done, and relied on that assurance and the court dismissal of the civil suit,”–Al Mohler
+++++++++++++++++
your explanation for why you stood your ground in promoting and endorsing CJ Mahaney & SGM is because the civil suit was dismissed due to expired statue of limitations?
just how stupid do you think your readership is?
the highlight of my day will be to see evidence that your simple-minded readership begins to see through you.
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I bet our readers can add others.
Don’t forget Rick Holland who you did coverage on before:
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2017/09/27/who-is-rick-holland-the-college-pastor-who-counseled-jane/
This is a comment that Brent Detwiler made about Rick Holland in your above blog post:
“I have strongly confronted Rick Holland in private for his cover up of C.J.’s sins. I sent him overwhelming evidence of ethical and criminal guilt. He refused to read it because he was too busy pastoring his church of 180 people with two other staff pastors. I begged him to repent. In my final email to him on Jan 26, 2016, I said “I hope you study the evidence, come to your senses, stop supporting C.J. in ministry, and help him repent.” Of course, there was no response and he continues to support C.J.”
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“The joke heard round the world.”
Does this not prove him to be morally and intellectually lazy. Shouldn’t he have done some research before getting on a stage and mocking victims of sexual abuse?
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“Some will question whether the force of public pressure explains the timing of my statement and its public nature. In all candor, this pressure is no doubt part of that explanation. That fact should serve to encourage survivors and their advocates to maintain such pressure.”–Al Mohler
++++++++++++++++++++++++
that fact should serve to remind us that you must be coerced in order to do the right thing when it costs you.
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Seriously? I missed this. Unbelievable.
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has any of this cost you, Al? beyond a feeling of agitation?
it should.
you pay for the 3rd party independent investigation. for starters.
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I had not thought about it from that angle…
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Was Al not aware of the picketers outside when he made his “joke” at the T4G conference?
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Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
Muff’s in your corner too Nancy.
It is my sincere hope that hubby will realize he’s been sold a crock-o’-you-know-what and that you are worth far more than some manufactured ‘biblical’ doctrine.
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I wonder if you believe in God’s sovereignty in literally everything (as the Neo Cals do), if you even feel guilt? Does an apology even mean anything if you chalk everything you do to God ordaining your sin for his glory?
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His joking reference to what one can find out about C J with Google is a little ironic, isn’t it? Did he not follow any of those links he is obviously making a backhanded reference to? Did he not read what was there? Apparently he followed enough Google links to find out which sports teams C J cheers for.
Al Mohler knew enough about what was out there on Google to make a joke out of it and that joke received a great big wave of laughter from the audience. Did they also know what the unspoken reference was about? They all walked past those picketers.
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Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
very for sorry for the stress you’re under. i’ve missed your contribution here. nice to see you!
i hope for better days for you. good sleep & all.
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This is a perfect example of how the young, restless and reformed mindlessly follow their leaders. Folks like Mohler and Mahaney would have no stage if they didn’t have a gullible audience to keep them there. Scary stuff.
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Dee, what a Herculean task you have done this week! Thank you for standing strong and for your continued care for the victims and those who have stood with them.
I note on your list of leaders who should apologize is David Horner of Providence Baptist Church. I was there that Sunday, after the law-suite came out with the horrific details of the abuse, when Pastor David introduced C J with gushing admiration and allowed CJ to preach! . I was so sickened at the scene before me. That said, I also wonder when/if David Horner will also apologize to each victim and family members who suffered at the hand of the abuse at his church. Horner and the minsters and elders at Providence at that time who stood either silent or supported David ALL need to line up at Providence and repent. I wonder if they are even aware of the emotional pain and destruction these survivors and their families have suffered. Further, I understand David Horner has recently completed his PhD work at Southeastern. Did Danny Aiken or any of the leadership ever say to him to get things right with the abuse victims and allowing CJ in his pulpit before they granted him his degree. Just wondering.
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Such is the cult of personality. Remember the standing ovations that Andy Savage and Bill Hybels got when their god-awful sins were announced? When will this madness end?!
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Doesn’t appear that way. The new reformers sincerely believe they have come into the world for such a time as this, to restore the “gospel” that the rest of Christendom has lost. They apparently justify a little bad behavior when necessary for the good of the movement. The moral boundaries become blurred, merging into narcissism, and in the end antinomianism. It’s a bad deal for the church to have these guys in the system.
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He walked by them to get into the convention center, perhaps in a trench coat and sunglasses.
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Yep.
@JohnPiper
Feb 11
“You shall not spread a false report.” Exodus 23:1
John Piper (@JohnPiper) · Twitter
https://twitter.com/JohnPiper
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Pay the tuition, show up for class, take the tests. Bingo! You, too, can get a seminary degree and be a church leader!
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The sad part of all of this is that Mohler and Akin will get a pass. They are already being lifted up as a “model” of repentance and contrition and that we should behave like them. Why didn’t Paige Patterson receive this same mercy?
BTW, I doubt any of the people on your list will say anything remotely resembling an apology.
To me, all of this is sickening.
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Today we told my aged mother in the nursing home about the shenanigans of James MacDonald, the SBC cover-up of abuse, and Mohlers disingenuous apology. She listened with incredulity and then cried out,”Don’t these men fear God? They spit in the face of Jesus.” This from a person who came to faith later in life and never attended church regularly. Funny how the average person can see the glaring sin in these stories while the men committing these behaviors flatter themselves too much to detect it.
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Fisher,
and how long will people like her still be in the world? you know, people who respect JESUS, and FEAR HIM. I was wondering that last night when thinking about my child and grandchildren. Heartbreaking.
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Fisher, you need to get your Mama out of the nursing home and put her in a pulpit somewhere! The American church started going South when we lost preachers like that – not ashamed to call sinners to account, not ashamed to point a finger in the face of a wayward church leader, not ashamed to stand up for the precious Name of Jesus!
Maybe … just maybe … on the other side of this mess, God’s people will humble themselves, pray, repent, and seek His face again. But, I suppose the American church is not desperate enough for the presence of God do that … yet.
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Fisher,
I also keep my dad updated. He has gone to church with me twice in my lifetime.
He said, “So who’s going to jail first?”
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I’ve been hearing updates from the HBC people that although JMac is out, Luke Macdonald has taken over and nothing has changed. Members are not allowed to ask questions or have any input whatsoever. The calls for the rest of the Macdonalds and most of the elders to resign are being ignored. Sounds like everyone is being told to shut up or leave.
I suspect JMac is still calling the shots from the shadows.
I also suspect that it won’t be long before they will be the proud owners of a bunch of big, empty buildings and a whole lot of bills.
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Then that’s what they need to do. With that sort of command coming from the pulpit, it’s clear that HBC elders did not learn the lesson sent their way by the hand of God. Until HBC members witness HBC elders/pastors on their knees at the altar (aka performance stage at HBC) crying out to Holy God in confession of sin and repentance, nothing has changed.
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__
Bosch (1) Tears: “This Extravagant Religious Calvinesta Game You Play, Perhaps?”
hmmm…
“Thoughts of stickin’ around disappear every time I see your lies
No matter how hard I try
To understand the reasons why you carry on this way
You’re apparently lost in this grotesque calvinesta 510c3 religious masquerade…”
***
What injustice did you find in Jesus, that you went far from Him and walked after emptiness and became tainted, and encouraged others frivolously to do the same?
(sadface)
Sòpy
;~)
—
Intermission:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RpEfAV1T5b0
(1) nonsense, meaningless
– –
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[Improved Copy]
__
Bosch (1) Tears: “This Extravagant Religious Calvinesta Game You Play, Perhaps?”
hmmm…
“Thoughts of stickin’ around disappear every time I see your lies
No matter how hard I try
To understand the reasons why you carry on this way
You’re apparently lost in this grotesque calvinesta 501c3 religious masquerade…”
***
What injustice did you find in Jesus, that you went far from Him and walked after emptiness and became tainted, and encouraged others frivolously to do the same?
(sadface)
Sòpy
;~)
—
Intermission:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RpEfAV1T5b0
(1) nonsense, meaningless
– –
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Am I missing something? Why is Al Mohler apologising about this now? Has something happened within SGM?/cj Mahaney?
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That’s because she’s looking with eyes of the Flesh, not The Spirit.
(You know that’s going to be the pat-myself-on-my-back spin…)
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So did the Young Communist League and Chairman Mao’s Red Guard.
A RIGHTEOUS enough Cause justifies Any Means Necessary.
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Which is what was REALLY Important.
Is he in the same Fantasy Football League?
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THAT Stupid.
“Touch Not Mine Anointed!”
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___
Furthermore: “Kick The Legal Can Further On Down The Road, Perhaps?”
hmmm…
Intro: “Further On Up the Road…”?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eYX-JvtTRwM
(“stood beside our friend, C. J. Mahaney”)
Stand by your man?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AM-b8P1yj9w
hahahahaha
“Rock me baby”?
Keep rockin’ all his ‘garnishment’ you can…
Before the proverbial Christian community rocks yours…
***
“But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. “
Whops.
;~)
– –
Bonus:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6JwWbM2VD1g
Just because: “Waitin’ On A ‘Son’y Day”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TiCxqhu9cio
-=-
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As hard headed as the leadership has been it is probably best if HBC implodes and the properties are foreclosed on. I hope contributions significantly decrease to where that might get the attention of leadership.
They let MacDonald stay in power and not address his sin issues for so long it is hard to believe they will change even now.
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Need help finding something – I thought I read earlier today an article from Houston Chronicle regarding Al Mohler’s backpedaling but Mark Dever, Ligon Duncan and 9 marks was also named as CJ supporters. I can’t seem to find that again. Has anyone else read that and if so can you post the link?
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Something likw this? https://youtu.be/Gdm95YENyYY
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This also shows Dever’s support of Mahaney: https://thouarttheman.org/2016/11/19/crooked-mahaney-corrupts-mark-dever/
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Baptist Press article on Houston Chronicle article:
http://bpnews.net/52428/mohler-akin-apologize-for-backing-accused-leader
“Southern Seminary told Baptist Press Mohler’s comments came in an interview the Chronicle requested to talk about Southern Baptists and sexual abuse in general. During the course of that interview, the Chronicle brought up Mahaney.”
“In 2018, Mahaney withdrew from the Together for the Gospel conference — an event he founded with Mohler, Dever and Duncan”
“Mohler, president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, told the Chronicle in an interview published Feb. 14 he ‘erred in being part of a statement supportive of (Mahaney).’ Mohler apparently was referencing a 2013 statement issued with Mark Dever and Ligon Duncan vouching for Mahaney’s ‘personal integrity'”
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These remarks from your parents warm my heart. They are honest, salt-of-the-earth responses. Lord, give us another generation full of these folks.
I urge you all to express your opinions to Dr. Mohler. Just Google him! (his name + “contact”)
Thank you, again, Dee. God bless and keep you. You do amazing work.
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I think I finally found the link you are looking for: https://web.archive.org/web/20130606205256/http://t4g.org/statement/
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The “Fab 4” of T4G must have had a blood pact … to stick together ’til the bitter end. Lord, I hope this is the beginning of the bitter end for the arrogant army of New Calvinists; they have taken the church for a bad ride.
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___
“The Tale Of Two Versions, Perhaps?”
hmmm…
SGC has completely erased it’s previous apparent POD/PDI religious cultic community roots, and is apparently slowly erasing it’s proverbial sex abuse conspiracy complicity on Wikipedia as well.
—
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_Grace_Churches
;~)
– –
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That fact should serve to encourage others to realize what a phony you and all of your ilk are. Oops, got caught defending systematic abuse – let’s say ‘Sorry, I didn’t have all of the facts’.
But wait, what’s that I hear? Voices from the wilderness (sounds like Dee and Deb?) pointing you to the facts, should you choose to examine them. Obviously, being not only godly but brilliant, you would want to examine all of the facts and make sure your judgment was sound. What’s that? No, no, I’m sure large financial contributions would not sway such as you.
You can fool a lot of people for a very long time. But your deeds will be exposed.
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That fact should serve to encourage others to realize what a phony you and all of your ilk are. Oops, got caught defending systematic abuse – let’s say ‘Sorry, I didn’t have all of the facts’.
But wait, what’s that I hear? Voices from the wilderness (sounds like Dee and Deb?) pointing you to the facts, should you choose to examine them. Obviously, being not only godly but brilliant, you would want to examine all of the facts and make sure your judgment was sound. What’s that? No, no, I’m sure large financial contributions would not sway such as you.
You can fool a lot of people for a very long time. But your deeds will be exposed.
Seriously, can you imagine what it might look like if enough of the people there really wanted to honor God? Imagine the whole stadium stamping their feet and clapping their hands, chanting, ‘You must go, you must go’ or some such? Or, if they really are just there for a good show, they will take whatever allows the well-crafted show to go on, right? And if that’s the case, I can’t feel too sorry for them.
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The “survivors” have had an excellent advocate at The Wartburg Watch! Thank you Dee and Deb.
The use of “survivor” almost takes away from the nature of things … these folks are VICTIMS of vile church leaders … trusted church leaders, for heaven’s sake! They are victims of abusers of the worst sort … pastors, youth leaders, church volunteers. TWW and other watchblogs have had to step into the gap as their advocates, because folks like Dr. Mohler turned a deaf ear to their cries. By doing so, he added to their abuse and effectively became an abuser himself. Where there is no sufficient accountability inside the church, you can rest assured that outside advocates will maintain pressure. Dr. Mohler has not encouraged victim advocates in any way; we remain discouraged in him for various reasons. Dr. Mohler has not encouraged victims; his comments come across as sorry rather than repentant and are too-little-too-late.
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You know, that’s how I felt when she said it to me too!
Sigh. Disillusioned members who leave will see God work in their lives because God is close the brokenhearted and He dwells with the humble. But these men are in danger of severe judgement. I have prayed a lot over the past few months for their repentance, but they look increasingly like prince Rabadash (of The Horse and His Boy) hurling insults at those he had hours earlier tried to ambush and murder. Then Aslan drew near….
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Just posted a few second ago:
Julie Roys
@reachjulieroys
“@HarvestBible1 announces that the entire executive committee of elders will be resigning over the next few months. That full story — and another surprise announcement — will be posted to my blog shortly.”
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Does anyone have a number of SGM sexual abuse victims? Of course, I know we’re only talking about the ones who came forward.
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And they should. They would not be on the “executive” committee if the Chief Executive didn’t want them there. They knew what sort of guy MacDonald was and allowed him to be that way for years, as long as they could be in the inner circle near the center of power.
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“Are these statements enough? Does it heal the pain that so many SGM victims/parents have felt over the years for remaining silent about the abuse and defending Mahaney? Is this really a step forward, or is it just the politically correct thing to do? … I want to believe that this is a genuine wake-up call for all church leaders to get their collective acts together and take sex abuse and cover-ups seriously. I only wish it came spontaneously from the hearts of leaders — you know, humble leaders who truly care about the people in their flock.” (Julie Ann Smith)
https://www.christianpost.com/news/so-baptist-leader-al-mohler-apologizes-for-defending-sovereign-grace-leader-cj-mahaney.html
“Humble” is not the first word that comes to mind in describing New Calvinist leaders. “Arrogant” is usually the primary descriptor that pops up. I, too, want to believe that this is a genuine wake-up call for all church leaders … but we are dealing with a strange cast of characters here who brush such criticism off quickly and continue with their agenda to Calvinize the American church – they alone hold truth, you know … they can’t be distracted too long from their mission.
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“A world in need of good news is watching to see just how born again we are.” (Russell Moore, New York Times)
We’ve been watching evidence of that in several Southern Baptist leaders for quite a while, Dr. Moore.
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Meant to say “We’ve been watching FOR evidence of that …”
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___
“Dirty 501c3 Deeds Done Dirt Cheap?”
SKreeeeeeeeeetch!
“A world in need of good news is watching to see just how ‘born again’ we are…” -Russell Moore, New York Times
hmmm…
We’ve been watching for ‘evidence’ of that in several Southern Baptist leaders for quite a while, illustrious Dr. Moore?!?
bump.
Dee, there’s a song in there ‘somewhere’…
(snicker)
;~)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2sky1tt8vLA
– –
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Granting in charity the assumption of accuracy of the details in that statement, it does look IMO encouraging, though I was a bit put off by this bit:
“We have stringent policies in place but are working on a public document outlining our policies for handling allegations of abuse and where to go for help,”
“handling allegations of abuse” has to me the “feel” of crisis management and it sounds a bit lawyerly. A way of putting it that is more a priori sympathetic to the abused might look more like “… responding to reports of abuse ..”
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And exactly just how does all this bad karma ‘restore the gospel’?
It really is theatre of the absurd.
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__
Steve240Said:
“They let MacDonald stay in power and not address his sin issues for so long it is hard to believe they will change even now.”
***
Q. So why should the parishoners now suffer?
;~)
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___
Muff, ‘Waiting for Godot’, Perhaps?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nsxkEs6G-9s
:~)
– –
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I made this comment when another SBC figure made a version of a mea culpa last year, and the similarities are telling:
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2018/05/11/paige-patterson-apologizes-and-an-update-on-the-patterson-petition/comment-page-1/#comment-369914
“This brings to mind a recent eventuality in my corner of the world. There was a similarly vague and general offering of regrets from an SBC pastor to “anyone” affecting negatively by his actions and/or words over the course of a period of time. There was a dearth of specificity as to where he may have fallen short. This to me left the impression that what was being apologized for was in the eye of the beholder and a matter of interpretation — which as a bonus allowed for the impression that the regret related more to a season of disunity born of misunderstanding, for which he was acting as the magnanimous bearer of the olive branch while lamenting man’s fallen nature.
“(Never mind that as with the Patterson situation, much had come out in written form and in word before a multitude of witnesses that called for direct apology and repentance. And as with this site, Wade’s, and others, even direct witness to this led to ostrich-style head-burying by much of those involved.)
“This version of regret or apology never surfaced as I know of in written form. I only heard some of it tangentially, as I was waiting in the hall to vote on a business matter while he gave an anecdote-laden sermon after a direct push in recent weeks and months on many levels for a specific outcome of the vote. Once the vote went his way, he reportedly told one of his collaborators on the vote that they’d been vindicated — good thing there wasn’t any specific apology or any written, right? Bu$iness as usual resumed for many of them.
Back to Patterson’s latest offering. Apologizing in a general way for anything one has said allows for avoiding acknowledging specific shortcomings/ sin/ what have you (i.e that which is the source of confession and repentance). It also allows for essentially saying ‘sorry for what you think you heard, but I’m willing to take the first step so we can put this behind us and get back to business as usual’.
“Apologizing to ‘anyone’ offended allows one to not apologize directly to brothers and sisters, which in turn leaves the aggrieved without the chance to react directly with the one who has wronged them. No matter whether the general apologizer gets what they’ve done, the one who is due the apology wants what happened to be acknowledged in truth and in specific reality. This is especially the case when the action is one that has gone unacknowledged and unrecognized for a considerable period of time, leaving the aggrieved to deal with the consequences without getting to a point of offering forgiveness and moving on to healing.”
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The items below are from the following link:
http://www.centerforbaptiststudies.org/hotissues/dildayfm2000.htm
“Soul competency” is the view that individual Christians may go directly to God through Christ without any other mediator. “The priesthood of the believer” is the view that through Christ each believer is a priest – both clergy and laity – responsible to God for interpreting and following the Bible and for interceding on behalf others. Both E.Y. Mullins and Herschel Hobbs called soul competency Baptists’ most distinctive doctrine.
But seminary President Al Mohler, a major voice, if not the primary composer, on the revision committee, has recently raised concerns about the historic Baptist convictions called “soul competency” and “priesthood of the believer” – especially as they were espoused by previous president of Southern Seminary, E.Y. Mullins.
In his Founder’s Day address at the seminary, March 30, 2000, Mohler said that Mullin’s emphasis on soul competency has “infected” the SBC with an “autonomous individualism” that undermines Biblical authority to this day. He blames Mullins for steering the SBC off course by making personal Christian experience more important than Biblical authority. He warned that soul competency “serves as an acid dissolving religious authority, congregationalism, confessionalism, and mutual theological accountability” (Southern Seminary Magazine, June, 2000).
An even stronger denunciation of these two doctrines appeared in the Winter, 1999 issue of the seminary’s theological journal by Sean Michael Lucas, associate director of the Southern seminary’s Center for the Study of the SBC:
For over 70 years, Southern Baptists have harvested the shallow discipleship and vapid theology that resulted from sowing Mullins’ theological seeds of experience. It is time to return to the founders of the SBC trained in the hardy doctrinal tradition of the Princeton theology.
Following this line of thought, BFM2000 originally deleted the following references to these doctrines in BFM63:
Baptists emphasize the soul’s competency before God, freedom of religion, and the priesthood of the believer. However, this emphasis should not be interpreted to mean that there is an absence of certain definite doctrines that Baptists believe, cherish, and with which they have been and are now closely identified.
After growing criticism of this deletion, the following reinsertion was made less than an hour before the report was brought to the convention for approval:
We honor the principles of soul competency and the priesthood of believers, affirming together both our liberty in Christ and our accountability to each other under the Word of God.
While this change was welcomed by critics, it was soon discovered that the reinserted wording had been subtly changed. The singular form in BFM63, “priesthood of the believer” had been changed to “priesthood of believers.” Here again, the revisors expressed their mistrust of personal, individual experience, focusing instead on accountability to an approved belief system. This in essence rejects the historical Baptist emphasis of the priesthood of each individual believer (singular), replacing it with a more Reformed doctrine of the priesthood of believers (plural).
Al Mohler defended the reinterpretation, “It is dangerous to say the priesthood of the believer. It is not just that we stand alone; it is that we stand together – and we stand together under the authority of God’s word.” Other defenders of the plural form say the singular form is “a kind of private interpretation which, while adhering to an ambiguously crafted “criterion” of Jesus Christ, eviscerates the Biblical doctrines…” (Biblical Recorder, July 29, 2000, p.3). But one Baptist editor countered:
While I am content to stand before God under the authority of Scripture, I can do so whether I’m alone or in a crowd of all 15.8 million Southern Baptists. While I appreciate the committee’s efforts to at least partially restore a pair of key Baptist doctrines, I am confident it is not dangerous to be a lone priest/believer in the presence of Almighty God through the power of his Holy Spirit (Baptist Standard, July 17, 2000).
The end result of these omissions, reinsertions, and changes seems to many to indicate a lack of appreciation for – even a rejection of two very important Baptist ideals.
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And, here’s Janet Mefferd’s story…https://janetmefferd.com/2019/02/al-mohlers-incomplete-apology-my-story/
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I have said this before, but I think it is worth repeating..
As Mark Twain said:
History does not repeat itself, but it does rhyme
I believe we are living through another reformation; this time enabled by the digital information revolution
At least the first time we got the beauty of the Vatican and the Sistine Chapel
This time around, I see nothing good coming out of all the sexual abuse, and cover ups by the leaders, especially the kid sex abuse…..
I am glad my name is not associated we church leadership this time around…. I do not think history will be kind to our current crop of leaders…
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Credit to JDV for pointing this out. So does Mohler believe that the individual cannot be saved by Jesus Christ, alone, for salvations, without standing in a group of people “en masse?”
And since no where in our Scriptures, do I find the words “Jesus was a baptist,” I am led to believe that our LORD showed no partiality to being a “bonafide member” of any denomination throughout the ages. The prideship born out of our current Nicolaitan church systems bears reference to which our LORD Jesus “hates” per Revelation.
To worship these religious overlords, is unadulterated idolatry, and pastors and priests literally hate those of us who don’t worship their authority over us. It makes them rather pouty, angry, bitter, and just plain mad towards people who don’t recognize their “special-ness.”
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I suppose they point back to John Calvin during the creation of his Christian utopia in Geneva, who exercised a little “bad karma” when necessary to deal with dissenters to his brand of Christianity. He apparently had no trouble exiling, torturing, imprisoning, and executing those who refused to be restored to his gospel.
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Karen,
Given at least some 9 Marks church’s will not let you take communion unless you jump through THEIR specific hoops, you are correct in your assessment
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I brought this comment up on SGM Survivors and don’t think it has been brought up here and the response I received.
I asked:
One person’s response was:
I responded:
Sorry for the long comment.
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In my former church, it was very much taught that you could not be part of ‘the Kingdom of God’ outside of the institutional church. Preserving the pretense of open communion, it was required that one be a member in good standing of a bible-professing church.
In other words, all those who are ‘disciplined’ for challenging authoritarian, abusive pastors such as James MacDonald would have been restricted from ‘communion of the saints’. Because these so-called churches are claiming the authority – falsely – of determining who is a ‘saint, or believer.
Because I have a child still in a sister church, I attended a couple of times, something I will no longer do. I took communion, despite clear disapproval, because they own neither me nor the Lord’s supper. No one – no man, no church, no pastor, no denomination – can forbid another individual ‘the body of Christ’. Period.
Back then, while I was still under much of the brainwashing, this mattered to me. Now, I could not care less about their cardboard wafers and cheap wine. Now, I consider that the institutional church has blasphemously abused the very words of Christ, turning the path of salvation into a wall.
The offer of salvation is to all, with no limiting factors such as being male, baptized or a member in good standing of some man-made institution; anyone who is willing to turn from wickedness may come:
““Ho! Everyone who thirsts,
Come to the waters;
And you who have no money,
Come, buy and eat . . .
Seek the Lord while He may be found,
Call upon Him while He is near.
Let the wicked forsake his way,
And the unrighteous man his thoughts;
Let him return to the Lord,
And He will have mercy on him;
And to our God,
For He will abundantly pardon.”
Nowhere does God give these false priests the right to give or withhold his most precious gift of salvation and life. They are phonies, Pharisees, false teachers . . . and it is high time they were exposed as such. We do not need their blessing or approval. We do not need to submit to their ‘orthodoxy’ and we certainly do not need to submit to their false authority.
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” … emphasis on soul competency has “infected” the SBC with an “autonomous individualism” that undermines Biblical authority to this day …” (Al Mohler)
What Dr. Mohler was essentially saying is “If believers become convinced that their saved souls are competent enough to directly access God, we can’t control them. If they believe that they are priests themselves, it will affect our ability to put overlords in place who will takeover their churches and get in their pockets to fund our movement, to Calvinize the SBC.”
By diminishing long-standing Baptist doctrines of Soul Competency and Priesthood of ‘the’ Believer, SBC’s New Calvinists have taken ultimate authority out of the hands of Jesus and inserted their interpretation of the Bible as the final say. They emphasize doctrines ‘about’ grace, rather than a direct experience ‘of’ Grace, an encounter with the living Christ. Depending on which route you take as a believer determines your ability to have a personal relationship with Jesus, to hear and know God in your Christian journey … without some mere man telling you what to believe. Dr. Mohler is undermining Biblical Truth by teaching anything different.
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It’s only when you step back from the institutional church to survey the Christian landscape that you will see the Kingdom of God is bigger than you thought! The Kingdom of Heaven is in the here and now, calling each of us to join God in what He is doing … and that ‘might not’ be in the institutional church you are a part of.
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I visited a WELS church where out-of-town members of other WELS churches had to fill out cards before Communion. During Communion, ushers checked their credentials and escorted people from the pews to the front in a specific number—four at a time, I think. Of course, nobody from outside WELS was allowed to receive Communion.
Churches have a right to offer closed or open Communion. However, that WELS process struck me as human micromanagement of the Holy Spirit.
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This is so important to understand. These people are following in the footsteps and building upon the foundation of a cruel, merciless, murderous tyrant – his actions are well documented – and they have the same unquenchable desire to build ‘the Kingdom of God’.
It is a false kingdom they have built, based on the worship of money, fame and power. People need to stop bowing to these idols, working themselves up to a frenzy in the orchestrated mass orgies of idol worship in these false temples. Their wretched dismissal of the weak and powerless, their defense of the tyrant and abuser, their self-glorying and self-enrichment show whom they serve.
It is up to the individual to choose this day whom he or she will serve.
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Max,
He doesn’t mean that at all. It would be good now and again to have a modicum of balance and accuracy in discussions instead of the trumpeting of worn out battle cries. From what I’ve read,the term “soul competency” is a fairly recent term (circa 1907?) and was promulgated by a man called Mullins. So it can’t be said to have been a long held distinctive Baptist doctrine.
“Baptists have seldom known or advocated a view of soul competency at the expense of biblical authority or church community,” Allen wrote. “In the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, General and Particular Baptists affirmed the fact that one’s conscience could be mistaken and individual freedom must not be used as a means to sidestep biblical authority and doctrine.” Wade and other BGCT leaders have “retreated to historical revision,” Allen wrote in his letter, “and sought to justify your stance against the SBC through a distorted espousal of ‘soul competency.'”
— Various Baptist luminaries have balanced soul competency with biblical authority, Allen wrote, citing the writings of the late Herschel Hobbs and E.Y. Mullins, who led, respectively, in the development of the SBC’s 1963 Baptist Faith and Message statement of beliefs and its 1925 predecessor. Both Hobbs and Mullins held that soul competency, as Allen put it, is “never to be understood in the sense of independence from the Scriptures, nor should it mean one can believe anything he chooses and still call himself a Baptist.”
(Baptist Press News article,25th January 2001).
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What the good doctor was really saying “… we must stand together under the authority of MY interpretation of God’s Word.” Mohler is sly – he has greased SBC life with subtle changes to their statement of faith to slide them right into his hands.
Southern Baptists were out of their spiritual minds to allow Dr. Mohler to revise the Baptist Faith and Message in 2000 … it has allowed enough wiggle room for the New Calvinists to takeover the largest non-Calvinist Protestant denomination in America and not feel bad about it.
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Amen! You will never find me disagreeing with that!
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A WELS church excommunicated my whole family when my grandfather was on his death bed because he didn’t pay his tithe. So I think they got a lot of problems with legalism.
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That’s awful. Collective punishment doesn’t have a very Christian ring, does it?
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Some church beliefs and practices just don’t seem Christlike to me. Which should be more important to church leaders: gathering their tithe or loving them?
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Well, when you keep pressing the matter with New Calvinists, they firmly believe that Calvinism is THE Gospel, the only true expression of faith for a believer. I’m not sure that classical Calvinists hold to such hyper views, that they alone are the keepers of Truth. But the new reformers in my area are downright insistent about that, to the point of being mean-spirited if you challenge them. Scary stuff.
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“Where else are they going to go? If you’re a theological minded, deeply convictional young evangelical, if you’re committed to the gospel and want to see the nations rejoice in the name of Christ, if you want to see gospel built and structured committed churches, your theology is just going end up basically being Reformed, basically something like this New Calvinism, or you’re going to have to invent some label for what is basically going to be the same thing, there just are not options out there …” (Al Mohler)
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No, it certainly doesn’t.
I was also reminded of a more recent WELS church in Atlanta that always had hellfire and brimstone messages on their sign. Seemed like such a welcoming church…
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Jeffrey Chalmers,
Does this mean those churches do not recognize that you are a saved individual, born again only through Christ Jesus? Also, does this mean that 9 marks churches only have the “correct” interpretation of our Holy Scriptures as opposed to other denominations.
I have sat in churches of the Catholic religion, and they refuse communion to those of us who are not a part of their religious system. I find it odd how religious systems determine by their own “check list,” precisely who is saved and who is not.
Perhaps this is one of a myriad of reasons why Jesus hates the Nicolaitans of His day, in relationship with the Nicolaitan religious systems of our day. The “hearts” of the religious cultures has not changed one single bit since Jesus’ day; it remains the same.
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They generally teach that the elect will choose churches with their hypercalvinist beliefs and remain in those churches. Pastors and elders have the authority to kick out members, effectively declaring them unelected, but members do not have the authority to leave of their own free will.
I will add that they don’t talk about Christ hardly ever. You are elect from the beginning of time and God does the electing. Christ is an atonement for sins, but they avoid any language about being born again because they believe it’s eternal and unchangeable. You rarely hear them preach on anything from the gospels, or most of the New Testament for that matter (unless they can talk about the submission of women or the authority of pastors and elders). New Calvinism is almost more of a Judaic sect in that sense.
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Dear friend,
And a friend and kindred spirit you are indeed. The “communion experience” you described is true, for I too, attended a WELS Lutheran church system for a year with my children, and they refused me communion as well, for I had not attended their special classes in getting my membership card to their social institution.
I was denied communion, and yet I could purchase my own bread and wine and have communion myself, in the privacy of worshiping my LORD in spirit and truth, away from the human religious system who chooses to lord it over others. Did not Jesus say, “this “lordship” type of system, shall not be so amongst you (believers)???”
Precisely “Who” has authority over all? “Jesus” Matthew 28:18-20
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That’s certainly the case in SBC’s New Calvinist church plants in my area. (I listen to their sermon podcasts to learn what makes them tick). They talk a lot about “God”, grace-this and grace-that … but seldom mention Jesus, and hardly a word about the Holy Spirit. They talk about Piper and other reformed icons more than Christ; they get much more sermon time than Jesus.
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Actually, they don’t own any of those buildings. Evangelical Christian Credit Union holds the notes. If they don’t pay on the notes (or renegotiate the ones that are coming due*), HBC could end up meeting back in an elementary school cafeteria.
*HBC certainly can’t pay those notes off. They’re balloon notes.
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Interesting. HBC made a huge mistake in trying to sue them, then. And no, they’re definitely not going to be able to keep paying at the rate they are losing members.
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Mahaney withdrew because Rachael Denhollander spent some of her new-found credibility on the issue of institutional sex abuse of children on pointing out that her (then) church had supported Mahaney. The public kerfuffle pretty much showed that Mahaney had to go.
I would note that those of you asking for a third-party investigation, even with Al paying for it out of his own pocket, are going to have to contend with Sovereign Grace Churches itself. Mickey Connolly, one of Mahaney’s guys, flatly told me at T4G last year that there would be no investigation. I want to be wrong on that, I SO want to be wrong on that.
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ishy,
I am sorry this happened to your family, what a painful experience inflicted upon you by the religious elite (vipers as Jesus calls them.” This shall not be so amongst you…..spoken by Jesus.
Your grandfather is an “elder,” according to the contextual definition of the word “elder” in our Holy Scriptures. An “elder” is not a literary “titled or entitled office” in the ekklesia-called out ones-Body of Christ. No, the word “elder” in the Body of Christ, literally means “an older person.” Your grandfather, an elder, was kicked out of an apostate religious system for not paying tithes….hmmmm….let’s see here…….tithes, according to the literal text, are either agricultural goods or the spoils of war. Jesus never paid tithes as the word “tithe” does not mean “income” or money.
Thus, the lie of the tithe has been engraved into stone via many apostate denominations, because they are money hungry wolves, salivating at the prospect of not earning an honest living, working with their own hands and utilizing their own talents/resources that are from our LORD. No, these religious liars use Scriptures out of context (lies) to guilt/shame/abuse Jesus’ people in supporting their lifestyles.
I sat in a Baptist church where the “lie of the tithe” was taught and preached, and used to abuse Jesus’ people, by the pastor man, the church board, and the deacons and deaconesses. And when a few of us voiced opposition, having studied the Word of God for ourselves, thus showing ourselves approved by the LORD, you would have thought we instigated world war III, for it is unheard of for the pew sitters to question the “authority and accountability” systems of the Nicolaitans.
It is good to share these things, ishy, for there is the power of healing in having similar experiences.
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Mars Hill found that out after Driscoll left. He was the drawing card, not Christ, so it imploded when the potty-mouth preacher went South. Members left in droves, eventually leading to a dissolution of all 13 Mars Hill campuses. Mars Hill and Driscoll narrowly escaped a federal racketeering lawsuit by former members when they ran out of money to pursue it.
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Max,
That IS pretty scary stuff, especially when their hearts and minds have been blinded to the truth of Jesus Christ. Hence, Jesus word “vipers” is a correct noun to label such people. He never spared words.
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This is why I’m expecting layoffs to happen shortly. HBC is not bringing in enough money to make payroll and pay their huge notes too. And those buildings have balloon notes on them that have to be rolled into new loans. This note, for example, comes due in July and it’s a small note. (There’s a $30,000,000.00 note out there as well.)
Rolling Meadows
Note amount: $ 3,600,000.00
Date of note: June 20, 2014
Interest rate: 5.250%
Monthly payment: $21,583.00
Last payment date: July 5, 2019
Last payment due (balloon note): $3,223,108.94
Under Events of Default on the Rolling Meadows mortgage (page 9), one of those is “[a] material adverse change occurs in Grantor’s financial condition, or Lender believes the prospect of payment or the performance of the Indebtedness is impaired.”
It’s probably in ECCU’s best interest to continue to collect from HBC for as long as possible rather than calling the note. Being saddled with five multi-million dollar buildings in the Chicagoland real estate market doesn’t sound like a good idea to me.
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Moore ought to read carefully the comments on his opinion article. Let’s just say that they weren’t cutting him a lot of slack. People are TIRED of this nonsense. You can say, “yeah, it’s the New York Times” and I would agree, but many of those people writing in were not from the Northeast.
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The last thing Moore and Mohler should do right now is open their mouth. They are digging deeper holes for themselves. Folks are starting to see through the masquerade.
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elastigirl,
Thank you, “elastigirl!” I am really praying about this and did email this prof 2 days ago, asking if he’d be open to hearing me out, face to face.
Haven’t heard from him yet. Still praying…
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This happened while I was an infant, so I have no memory of it, but something similar happened on my dad’s side (I actually don’t know what; nobody will talk about it). Both my parents had very bitter feelings toward churches most of my life.
I’ve seen similar things play out repeatedly, though. I never thought about my family having anything to do with it, but it might be why I take such a strong stand against church abuse now.
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Lowlandseer,
“So it can’t be said to have been a long held distinctive Baptist doctrine.”
There are no unbroken long held monolithic Baptist distinctives. Baptist’s, as far back as one can go and even begin to apply the label, would be like herding cats. An overarching concept or principle within their dissent (of whatever) could be described as soul competency whether they were rebaptizing, proclaiming No king but Jesus or No creed but scripture as they were being drowned by the Catholics and Reformers. They are as diverse as Menno to Munster to post Puritan Roger Williams. . Lots of twists and turns as people started interpreting scriptures for themselves. The powerful didn’t like that one bit. Still don’t.
Frankly, I am grateful to the old Baptist saints who drilled the concept of soul competency and priesthood of believer into my little brain. I am personally responsible for what I believe and do in this life. They weren’t drilling us to follow mere men or identify with some reformation guru, but Christ. Thise types are practically extinct and it took me a long time to really appreciate their approach. And what they taught is easier said than done because it’s our responsibility to have that relationship with Christ.
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__
“Together They Stand, Together They Fall, Perhaps?”
hmmm…
– [ ] if TULIP Calvinists ultimately believe they, as the ‘elect’ of God, cannot fall out of God’s Grace. And C.J. Mahaney is considered a good TULIP Calvinist, Therefore by logic, he can not fall from God’s Grace. Hence his actions past, present, or future, do not matter. By their religious theological belief system ONLY being an ‘elect’ recipient of God’s grace matters.
Ya think their proverbial calvinesta backs are against the wall, huh?
In vogue ta ‘come together’ over Mahaney, these dayz?
hahahahaha
“He’s my lit’l golden goose, you don’t know what I got…”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8g1HtpTonJI
;~)
– –
Intermission:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yoEknxQ2a8s
– = –
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You make a good point. Mohler is pretty disingenuous when it comes to soul competency and the priesthood of believers, as they certainly do promote individual voices over others. Mohler and friends just want to be able to choose those voices for everyone, instead of teaching people to examine for themselves.
Max did say it above, too. Their reasoning to remove those theological concepts had nothing to do with unity and everything to do with enforcing hierarchy.
“It is dangerous to say the priesthood of the believer. It is not just that we stand alone; it is that we stand together – and we stand together under the authority of God’s word.” (Al Mohler)
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Amen, Sister Lydia! Baptist preachers who imparted truth in this regard are rare and endangered species. They taught believers to ‘know’ Christ through personal experience, that the Word of God must be coupled with the Spirit of God if we are to know Truth, and that each believer has direct access to Truth without the need for it to be filtered through the teachings and traditions of men. They taught us that the Body of Christ is to function as individual priests before God – a royal priesthood of ‘peculiar’ people – each competent to hear His voice, as we work together to fulfill the Great Commission without the pulpit being any more important than the pew. It sets your soul free when you get this!
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ishy,
I had not thought of it like that.
The closest we came to a “guru” when I was a kid was Billy Graham. But he was only on TV several times a year and had a local Crusade a few times. 🙂
I still claim there are no set historical Baptist distinctives except maybe dissent. People adopted what they liked from disparate groups over history. ( I am not saying that a lot of theologians have not tried to make a different case. They have and the ones that I have read, I think take their position a bridge too far And need to read more secular history)
The explosion of groups and denominations because of our Founding is quite interesting from a historical POV. Baptist’s love to argue/debate and we used to be able to disagree vehemently and then go have potluck together. But those days are over. They now only have special adults in charge of the non special adults. Heirarchies within heirarchies. It’s mind numbing.
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Jeffrey Chalmers,
“At least the first time we got the beauty of the Vatican and the Sistine Chapel
This time around, I see nothing good coming out of all the sexual abuse, and cover ups by the leaders, especially the kid sex abuse…..”
++++++++++++++++++++++
well, i think just desserts are a beautiful thing.
to the degree they are served up.
of course, silent enablers and active cover-up-ers & other such disqualifieders can always offer restitution and surrender their jobs on their own accord. instead of doing nothing until coercion requires it of them.
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Jeffrey Chalmers,
“Given at least some 9 Marks church’s will not let you take communion unless you jump through THEIR specific hoops, you are correct in your assessment”
++++++++++++++
NEWS BULLETIN: communion does not require a professional christian
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Hmmm. And dissent is the one thing they are trying to remove now. Even though it’s an exercise in futility.
I do find it fascinating that some outside their group are very vehement that the New Cals are not “Reformed”, despite the New Cals flagrant use of the word. Their reasoning is that the New Cals eschew confessions and infant baptism, in other words, Baptists cannot be “Reformed”.
It just occurred to me that I never hear about baptism from New Cals. The New Calvinist church I was in still performed them, but that was very early in the movement.
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Max,
In fact, what you are advocating is a free for all when it comes to belief and practice and the result is what you see unfolding now. As I said in my original quote, even the advocates of soul competency never envisaged this.
And Lydia is being a bit selective in the beliefs of early proto-Baptists. There were just as many who were willing to throw Scripture out the window in favour of immediate Spirit-revelation, based on their millenarian end-time views. Some, like William Postel, former Jesuit, even converted to the cosmic feminism of Mother Giovanna hoping to bring in a new humanity. Happy days.
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This is where I get confused about the term “New Calvinist.” I grew up in the Christian Reformed church. I am 58. I was a Calvinette as a little girl. I earned badges for learning women’s work. At the beginning of every meeting we recited our motto: “I confess that the Heidelberg Catechism, the Canons of Dordt, and the Belgic Confession are the true interpretation of the scriptures.” I still have my workbook from back then. I denounced that confession when I became a true Christian after I was 30. What do I mean by a true Christian? That I was not merely someone whom God had picked to be saved, while he picked others to never be saved. No matter how humble the predestinated tried to act for having been picked without having to make a choice, they always appeared proud and haughty, and still do to me. There are a few exceptions. But when I listen to them talk about their beliefs, I don’t believe they are true Calvinists.
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Karen,
“And since no where in our Scriptures, do I find the words “Jesus was a baptist,” I am led to believe that our LORD showed no partiality to being a “bonafide member” of any denomination ”
++++++++++++++++++++++
i don’t think you were led one way or another. i think you used your noggin and came to that conclusion on your own in complete sobriety.
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Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
“…Mickey Connolly, one of Mahaney’s guys, flatly told me at T4G last year that there would be no investigation. I want to be wrong on that, I SO want to be wrong on that.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++
i somehow think media and public outcry will look something like this:
MOD: This provided link does not work. Try again. And see if you can clean the link up before copying it. GBTC
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Eli,
i’m routing for you.
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There’s a whole lot of debate on their name, but that’s the name that has stuck and people identify with them. A number of their critics wanted to go with Neo-Puritan, which may be more accurate theologically, but just wouldn’t stick.
And “Reformed” is what they usually call themselves, but they definitely do have distinct beliefs compared to most Reformed Christians. They are most definitely not classical Calvinists like most Presbyterians or Christian Reformed, though.
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ishy,
I’ll tell you how it got started. Early in the movement, several people wrote articles about them. One was Mormon theologian Peter Masters, who wrote an article called “The New Calvinism”. He’s taken his article down, but it’s referred to in this article: https://pbaptist.wordpress.com/2009/06/17/the-new-calvinism-a-review-of-the-peter-masters-assault-on-the-new-breed-of-calvinists/
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Lowlandseer,
I’m also a bit nonplussed that you think that the priesthood of all believers is solely a Baptist thing.
“Now Christ plays the priestly role, not only to render the Father favourable and propitious toward us by an eternal law of reconciliation, but also to receive us as his companions in this great office (Rev 1;6). For we who are defiled in ourselves, yet are priests in him, offer ourselves and our all to God, and freely enter the heavenly sanctuary that the sacrifices of prayers and praise that we bring may be acceptable and sweet-smelling before God.”
(Institutes, Book 2, Ch 16.6)
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ishy,
Peter Masters is a well known Baptist minister of The Metropolitan Tabernacle, Spurgeon’s old church in London. I think the word tabernacle might have thrown you.
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__
“501c3 ‘Perp Protectors’ ™ Out Of Vogue, Perhaps?”
hmmm…
“Some will question whether the force of public pressure explains the timing of my statement and its public nature. In all candor, this pressure is NO DOUBT part of that explanation. That fact should serve to encourage survivors and their advocates to maintain SUCH pressure.” – SBTS President Dr. Albert Mohler
Big Al is finally firing on all eight proverbial cylinders?
Ho!
Getting rubber in all four gears?
huh?
That remains to be sēēn…
What?
hum, hum, hum…“He’s my lit’l golden goo$e, you don’t know what I’ve lost…”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8g1HtpTonJI
;~)
– –
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Lowlandseer,
What I read in your comment is they threw your particular group’s interpretation of scripture out the window. Lol. People are free to believe all sorts of wacky things. Church is voluntary. Now. Thank God! Where I hope we can all agree is actually harming someone or a cover up of such isn’t acceptable.
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The following link provides a comparison of “New” vs. “Old” Calvinism, based on a list of distinctives John Piper prepared a few years ago; you can take it as fact, since Piper came up with the list 🙂
I take exception to Piper’s statement that New Calvinism is “cross-centered” since I’ve never heard any of the new reformers in my area preach about the Cross of Christ, nor mention the precious Name of Jesus much in their sermons.
https://www.theaquilareport.com/the-new-calvinism-is-not-the-old-calvinism/
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Not at all, Lowlandseer. There is a great gulf of misunderstanding between us in our respective positions on soul competency and priesthood of ‘the’ believer. I only advocate that Christ’s redemption is “free for all” who believe in Him with repentant hearts. Once they come to that salvation, both pulpit and pew have equal access to Him during their Christian journeys. The knock-down-drag-out we are seeing unfold in Christendom is a result of folks not getting this essential truth; if they did, there would be harmony not disunity, love not abuse, the preaching of truth not error.
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That is funny that some people even think it is a “model” apology. As has been shown on Dee’s post here and other places like with Janet Mefferd, this “apology” though maybe a nice stat if far from being a “model.” It is more like Mohler saying as little as he can and trying deny as much responsibility as possible.
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Lowlandseer,
I don’t know who this is directed toward but I see it as a scriptural concept that is simply interpreted differently by different groups.
It’s a bit of a sticking point in SBC circles because back in 1999 Mohler insisted that an “s” was attached to the word “believer” for the BFM 2000. I would link to the Baptist Standard article from 1999 that used to be online but like so many things, it’s disappeared. The writer outlined some concerns people had over that little change and what it might mean as other changes were more heirarchal than normal. . There was a lot of dissent over others things changed as a move away from Christ centered and toward more creedalism.
The irony of the controversy over the BFM 2000 rewriting is many Baptist’s did not even know they had a confession! Lol. It was one of those belief statements mostly used for hiring by the entities that was rewritten from the 1963 version and subsequently taught to seminary stud3nts to preach to churches. Very top down which also made many Baptist’s angry.
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This post titled
has some good information in it titled “An Open Letter to Rachael Denhollander on #SBCtoo” has some good information in it:
https://www.emschumacher.com/an-open-letter-to-rachael-denhollander-on-sbctoo/
I would highly recommend reading it.
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elastigirl,
I got a good chuckle out of your comment! One of the “marks” of being “deeply, deeply, deeply spiritual and on a plane far higher than anyone else” was the practice of being “drunk in the spirit.” I’ll trade being drunk in some strange spirit for being sober minded in spirit and in deed.
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Mohler’s “model apology” is another form of circling the wagons because the evil and wickedness of the secret things done in their churches are being exposed.
Damage control doesn’t heal a thing, it only pours more fuel on a burning fire.
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Dr. Mohler is slick, slimy, sly, slippery, and shrewdly adroit. He will turn this lemon into lemonade and remain untouchable in the SBC Kingdom. Darn it, he’s good.
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Dee: “Here is a list of other names who should apologize. All of these men were CJ gushers. I bet our readers can add others.”
I’d add Tim Keller.
Although Keller didn’t gush over Mahaney himself, his TGC co-founder, Don Carson, signed that TGC 2013 statement in defense of Mahaney – in which “some” (essentially SGC victims and advocates) were accused of “libel” and having a “Javert-like obsession” for justice.
Since this statement is still on TGC’s website, it sure comes across as TGC’s official opinion on the matter.
Benjamin Sledge (author of “Together for the Go$pel” on medium.com) noted on Twitter that sources have told him that Tim Keller basically doesn’t oversee how TGC is run.
However, as a co-founder of that ministry network, Keller is inescapably responsible for how TGC operates, who his org chooses as ministry partners, what statements his org makes about pastor buddies allegedly covering up sexual abuse, and what kind of tone his org uses in engaging culture, etc.
If any of the above had troubled Keller’s conscience, he could have stepped aside from TGC entirely. He could have recognized that TGC’s 2013 statement on Mahaney was irresponsibly dismissive, arrogant and crushing to survivors who had already been hurt by their abuse in church.
Or, Keller could have published his own separate TGC statement on the matter back in 2013, showing at the very least that he took the allegations seriously and that TGC as an org was in fact, not of one mind in defending Mahaney.
Or – as recently as a year ago, Keller could have even joined Mark Galli by calling for an independent investigation of SGC & Mahaney, after Rachael Denhollander became a media star.
He didn’t do any of these things.
I’m just an average online reader. There’s no way I know more about TGC’s problems than Tim Keller does.
It’s sad, really. Keller has such a gift for reaching skeptics in his preaching. I’ve probably listened to a few hundred sermons of his, and have read a few of his books. He’s great on justice too – Keller’s book Generous Justice was required reading for my ethics class in seminary. He talks a lot about how Jesus sides with the marginalized over the powerful.
I don’t know Keller at all personally, but I’d like to think that Keller isn’t an egomaniac. For instance, he purposely avoided announcing what campus he’d preach at on any given Sunday at Redeemer, so that the focus would be on Jesus, not him.
I’d also like to think that Keller co-founded TGC because he just got excited by the next big thing God was doing through this neo-Calvinistic revival, and wanted to be a part of that effort.
But that ultimately meant swallowing a lot of garbage along the way.
Sadly, I really don’t think Keller has any idea how much pain he has caused through his silence, or how much he’s compromised his Christian witness.
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As of today TGC still lists him as the TGC vice president, so if he does not oversee how it is run he is asleep at the wheel. As to his ego, the link to the foundation documents prominently displays him:
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/about/foundation-documents/. There is no way for him to claim he is not one of the main faces of TGC.
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Yes, our life journey is about that responsibility. Dan Buettner, in his longevity studies, notes the importance of a supportive social network, too. For a Christian, this begins by taking personality responsibility in following Christ, and then takes the journey to the next level in finding others that are also responsibly following Christ. No middleman. All centered around and surrendered to Christ through God’s Holy Spirit.
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Hell no it ain’t. They’re no different than any other investment properties outfit, Chicagoland or no. If the properties aren’t turning a buck, nobody wins.
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Max,
You’re right on the money Max.
He’s one of the best politicians I’ve seen in a long while.
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Q. Will SBTS President Albert Mohler, Jr. go the way of Page Patterson? Will a petition be drawn up for his removal?
;~)
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Good enough to play his theo-politics right to capture the SBC throne!
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Agreed.
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jyjames,
Sometimes there isn’t a good “social network” (if fellowship is what he means as in learning, support and accountability) unless one is willing to give up their independence/individualism. (if they even possess that) People tend to seek “being accepted” into the group because many want to belong.
A “good social network” is what was promised and initially delivered to many people who found themselves in groupthink horror and following gurus. A case can be made, I suppose, that some might find it beneficial to work out their beliefs and responsibilities before total grouping. But the reason they often join the institution or group is to learn— which may be part of the problem. A conundrum which might take us back to priesthood of believer and that issue?
I always think of Paul going to Tarsus after his first few fiascos. Some scholars think he was there 14 years! And he didn’t even have a long time Christian“institution” to deal with. Lol. To each his own!
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Max,
My Carmac the Magnificent Prediction. Mohler will retire soon. He will be given a send off fit for a king to seal his faux legacy. Moore will the de facto pope of the hip SJW SBC they are branding now. It’s a more culturally relevant way to sin sniff and thought police people.
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I’m pretty sure Carl Trueman doesn’t belong on that CJ gusher list. He was asked as a relative outsider about CJ’s pride or something like that way before the SGM abuse scandal erupted. I think he spoke at one T4G conference back in 2012 or so, long before any of the abuse mess became well known. He hasn’t had much use for the whole conference thing since then. I also remember hearing him on mortification of spin talking about how SGM et al were overlooking serious charges that were not being investigated.
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Dear Lydia, I have always thought of you as a prophetess! I suppose you have severed ties with the SBC, too, after prophesying the days at hand some time ago. But, the SBC is no place for seers like you, Lydia – it is a non-prophet organization 🙂
Your prediction aligns with my thoughts on Mohler & Moore. Mohler will choose a sunny day to exit, there will be accolades aplenty, standing ovations, etc. Moore will assume his throne as heir-apparent, the new general over SBC’s New Calvinist army.
Oh well, you and I remember better SBC days, Sister Lydia. Regardless of what the New Calvinists say, the former SBC didn’t lose the Gospel! Sure, there were some contentious times over this and that and other “Mohlers” along the way that should have never been handed the leadership baton. But, the Gospel (the real one) was preached and millions came to know Jesus through SBC missions around the world. Those days appear to be over. But God …
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I believe Albert Mohler should step down, but at age 59 he’s a bit too young for a formal retirement sendoff. Besides, I would also hope that if Mohler leaves, his next position should be one that’s much more low-key. That would give him time and space to reflect not only on the C.J. Mahaney debacle but on other controversies, including his support for complementarian theology and his views on singleness and sin.
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Sovereign Grace Churches press release Feb. 15, 2019:
https://www.sovereigngrace.com/sovereign-grace-blog/post/february-15-2019-press-release
“The Leadership Team of Sovereign Grace Churches is saddened by the recent comments made by Southern Baptist leaders regarding their historical support of C.J. Mahaney. These interviews come at the end of a week full of heart-wrenching stories of sexual abuse within the Southern Baptist Convention. Our hearts and prayers are with the survivors of these horrible crimes and sins. We thank God for all those who are working to care for them and for justice and reform.”
“We continue to affirm C.J. as a pastor in good standing within our denomination and commend to you his faithful service to our churches…We are not aware of any outstanding, credible accusations against him.”
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Unbelievable!
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Evaluation of Mahaney written by Carl Trueman, Kevin DeYoung, and Ray Ortlund in 2011 continues to be featured on the Sovereign Grace Churches website:
“from all that we have seen, heard, and read, we believe C.J. Mahaney is, at this moment in time and based on those sins which he has acknowledged, still fit to be a minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ and a pastor to others.”
https://www.sovereigngrace.com/sovereign-grace-blog/post/findings-from-our-preliminary-panel
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Well, that’s not exactly an independent third party evaluation! It’s akin to prison inmates saying that it is OK to release one of their buds. Would Dr. Mohler, today, agree with that assessment?
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Unless you’re a woman.
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Ken F (aka Tweed),
Yes – seems like these sources Sledge mentioned are determined to keep Tim Keller out of the fray. But it just doesn’t add up.
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“Who are you [Al Mohler] to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.” Ro 14:4
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Here’s a good position for Mohler, head of the Executive Committee. He could do some real damage there.
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Here is the only statement about this from Keller that I could find.
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/on-some-recent-changes-at-tgc/
Makes it sound like it was a routine parting of ways over schedule priorities.
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The hypocrisy or failure in the Mark Dever/9 Marks brand cannot be overlooked in all this. If leaders are not subjected to nor submit to the 9 Marks brand disciplinary process then it is nothing more than a set of packaged ideas that have been marketed as truth, believed as truth, and imposed (where convienent) as truth.
Dever, Mohler, et al, “weighed…measured…wanting.” Ring a bell?
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Why is Mark Dever remaining silent in public over the SBC sex scandal? Why is he not yet apologised for blocking his ears over many years to the cries of the SGM and SBC victims of sex abuse and their advocates. It was Mark Dever who introduced CJ Mahaney to Al Mohler and friends in the first place. Dever’s continued ‘business as usual’ tweeting of irrelevancies whilst others suffer, is astonishing. Surely he can see that his example of ignoring the victims of abuse whilst bolstering the enablers of abuse has led thousands of church leaders (who follow the Dever/9Marks brand rather than Christ) to think it’s ok to do likewise? Why would he not now speak up publicly in an attempt to rectify some of the damage he has done?
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He is probably thinking this will all be forgotten soon, so there is no need to weigh in. TGC today is celebrating Dever’s original 9 marks letter:
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/evangelical-history/mark-devers-original-letter-church-plant-9-marks-healthy-church/
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Because the news media aren’t saying anything about him. Mohler won’t bring his name up unless he needs to throw him under the bus with Mahaney. C.J. first fled to Dever when the SGM scandal broke, then to Louisville to be sheltered by Mohler.
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The New Calvinists talk about each other ad nauseam; they are always celebrating something or somebody as they sweep across the landscape with stealth and deception. They really think they are something. The 9 Marks focus on “healthy” churches was a milestone for their movement. They will continue to praise Dever for restoring health to the American church and providing the young reformers a framework for torturing church members into submission.
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Slightly off topic. I was reading some old threads, before my time. Gram3, where are you? What a fount of wisdom and godliness! I hope you have written some books . . . that I can read. Wish you were commenting, so people like me could shut up and listen.
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I keep waiting for enough female believers to rise up in patriarchal churches, declare “Enough is enough!” … and begin dragging their sorry men out of the mess. New Calvinism could certainly use a dose of this. You can see the oppression on the countenance of young wives in reformed church plants near me. The “beauty of complementarity” is not so pretty.
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Funny you should point out the qualifications of a good leader, be they secular or religious. We have been deceived when we think that those whose names we know are the true powers in this world.
Because the truth is, these clever manipulators are merely doing the bidding of unseen masters, as is and always has been the case. The real powers are not going to soil their hands, nor risk being taken down by angry mobs. They rule from their unseen positions of ease, and at a nod, can cast any one of these ‘great’ leaders, who are merely puppets, under the bus. That’s my theory, anyway.
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Yes, I’ve missed Gram3, too.
Okrapod, where are you?
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Try saying that 10 times real fast 🙂
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“… he has no stately form or splendor; and when we see him there is no appearance that we should desire him. He is despised and rejected by men…“
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9Mark Dever is much too busy tweeting photos of the construction of the intern monastery he’s having built next to the church in the former parking lot.
Sovereign Grace “merch” was, however, atop the pile of books he showed he was distributing at church yesterday:
https://twitter.com/markdever
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Tweets from the fourth T4G guy “Lig” over the weekend:
“…deliver us out of the danger of those who seek our overthrow & destruction…From Psalm 47”
https://twitter.com/LigonDuncan/status/1096741989696110593
“…cast down our adversaries, bring to nought their forces, continue your goodwill toward us….From Psalm 48”
https://twitter.com/LigonDuncan/status/1097104377825902593
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” … deliver us out of the danger of those who seek our overthrow & destruction …”
” … cast down our adversaries, bring to nought their forces …”
Well, I would say that Ligon Duncan, a T4G founder and member of “Al’s little playgroup” apparently sees all this as a Satanic attack on the New Calvinist movement (the one true church). Brother!!
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I suspect that wave is coming.
Many of us little realize how our ‘reality’ has been manufactured by those who control the narratives. All of these evangelical ‘leaders’ came out of the same training camp, and have been pushing the same narrative within evangelicalism for several decades.
History suggests that tyranny always triumphs by recasting the narrative, creating new bogey men and scapegoats. The masses, hungry for solutions to the endless evil and oppression, grasp at the proffered answers, no matter how twisted the logic.
Imagine, blaming women (feminism) for the mess that this almost entirely male-led world is in. How many women have led nations into endless war and oppression? How many women have wielded the weapons that have brought so much destruction and death to peoples across the globe?
I suspect that after so many decades of these false promises bringing none of their desired fruits, they are beginning to wear thin. Women who submitted to submission ‘in theory’ are going to look at it much more closely when it comes time to send their beloved daughters into the arms of some clueless tyrant.
In my own little corner of the world, I am seeing the women begin to fold up their denim skirts and see what needs to be done. They cannot be bought off with mini-fiefdoms, as were their husbands, because that narrative does not exist. No doubt it will come. They are beginning to quietly say ‘To h*ll with your authority, somebody has to do something about this mess’ just as they have so many times in their homes and their churches after the boys were through with their games.
I feel as if we are in a Bridge over the River Kwai moment, when the men looking proudly at this bridge of destruction they have crafted are only beginning to understand what’s coming over on it. Those who were self-deceived, or deceived by others, are beginning to ask, ‘What have I done?’
If they are wise, they will come out of their man caves and acknowledge the gifts, insights and abilities they have long been taking for granted and taking credit for. If they are humble, they will recognize the picture of what God’s love looks like, as they gaze upon those who have actually demonstrated it with servants’ hearts.
War, or murder, will always exist as long as one person or group of persons believe they have the right and ‘authority’ to rule over another. Ah, but we have all been sold the narrative that war is necessary and just, that some people have the authority to control the lives and resources of others. The moment we reject that lie, and no longer seek to rule over others or heap up what does not belong to us there will be no more injustice, oppression and murder.
The Body of Christ is called to exemplify love, giving, sharing, caring for the needy and laying down our lives rather than taking, ruling and lording it over others. We have been dceived, and too many shamelessly worship the idols of charisma, wealth and power they call ‘pastors’, who have built glorious temples and cults that have nothing to do with the one whose name they blaspheme.
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Yes! This CBE blogger, who has worked for nearly two decades in public policy and advocacy, articulates why that is difficult—and often necessary:
https://www.cbeinternational.org/blogs/poisonous-fruit-bad-theology-response-abuse-sbc
Excerpts: “In complementarian churches, a culture of silence is carefully cultivated . . . A culture of silence is a breeding ground for abuse. Does it need to be said? Scripture indicates that God rewards women who act boldly. . . . As we consider the way forward, I pray we will have the courage to ask whether our theology is bearing good fruit and, if the answer is no, to dig up the tree and plant something better.”
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BREAKING NEWS:
“Adam Greenway Nominated to Lead Southwestern Seminary!” (Al Mohler, tweet)
Note: Greenway is currently on the faculty of Southern Seminary.
https://swbts.edu/news/releases/greenway-nominated-lead-southwestern-seminary/
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[they fail to mention that the first 9Marks church no longer exists, it collapsed not long after Dever protege Andy Davis’s pastorate there]
“If you’ve ever wondered about the origin of the ‘nine marks of a healthy church,’ it goes back to a letter that 31-year-old Mark Dever wrote…At the time, Dever was working on his PhD dissertation at the University of Cambridge…he had helped to plant New Meadows Baptist Church in Topsfield, Massachusetts, and they had asked him what they should look for as they searched for a pastor. In this letter he lays out, for the first time, what he regarded as the ‘nine marks of a healthy church.’ (After reading this letter, the church ended up hiring Andy Davis as their pastor.)”
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Max,
Max: You are now officially a prophet fulfilled. The SWBTS presidential candidate is, exactly as you have been telling us all along, a Mohlerite of the highest degree.
https://swbts.edu/news/releases/greenway-nominated-lead-southwestern-seminary/
“Southwestern Seminary alumnus Adam W. Greenway, dean of the Billy Graham School of Missions, Evangelism and Ministry at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary,”
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Jerome,
So then, the 9 Marks Brand comes from what was conceived in the mind of a 31 year old where the “proof of concept” that was launched AND is being replicated in the brand marketing, actually ended in failure? Do I have that right?
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Sometimes I would like to be wrong.
It should be clear by now that the trustee boards at various SBC entities are no longer answerable to mainstream Southern Baptists across the American landscape. They take their orders from the powerbrokers in Louisville, under the cover of darkness in smoke-filled rooms. The SBC pew (still mostly non-Calvinists) ain’t got a clue that Mohler’s chess pieces are now positioned for checkmate. He has successfully maneuvered Mohlerites into leadership positions at most SBC entities. He’s a brilliant strategist, I’ll give him that.
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For a glimpse of Adam Greenway, an SBC New Calvinist, I recommend the following short video:
http://www.dennyburk.com/pbs-profles-new-calvinism-the-sbc-with-interviews-with-danielsojourn-albertmohler-adamgreenway-steve-lemke/
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Max,
That is helpful, thanks.
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Dee, Thank you for staying steadfast! Thanks for all the documentation. Thanks for subjecting yourself to the abuse for defending the abused and down trodden. Well done good and faithful servant.
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The devotees must be brought in-house to learn in close proximity to the master (Dever) and his erstwhile protege (Lehman) until fully inculcated with all nine marks…
.
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Some say that a discretely placed IX tattoo is gaining popularity amongst devotees…
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Max,
His wife taught after school piano at my daughter’s elementary school shortly after they moved here. I think for about a year.
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Certainly women have had less power than men, but in the past few centuries, there have been several very powerful empresses as well as female monarchs and prime ministers.
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and his minions in the SBC churches that have been taken over say EXACTLY what they need to say to get by with what they do. Play both sides of a situation. The new calvinists have positioned themselves as the “saviours” of the SBC in this abuse thing. Truth be DAMNED. And everyone just goes along with it. I don’t know who I’m more disgusted with. The leaders or the bobbleheads in the pews. This has been one of the more disgusting things I’ve ever seen, what has taken place last week. Mohler has won. And their theology is incorrect. I hate to see what’s happening to long time church members the most. They don’t want to leave churches they’ve attended for years and years. It’s not their fault that there’s been a takeover.
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Sample of Adam Greenway’s teaching: church ‘revitalization’ training, text: Nine Marks of a Healthy Church by Mark Dever
course syllabus pdf here:
http://events.sbts.edu/conference-classes/files/36550CT-Greenway-Winter-15-16.pdf
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How is it that just a tiny minority of wealthy and evil men are able to call these shots and play ‘masters of the universe’ over us all?
Maybe this is what St. Paul refers to as ‘the mystery of iniquity’ (2 Thessalonians 2:7), of how we, a vast sea of little people sit still for it, and let them do it to us. Cowering all the while like the rabbits under General Woundwort in Richard Adams’s Watership Down.
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Why does this not surprise me?
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You placed Matt Chandler on your list twice. I’ve got a hunch that this story is only at the beginning… praying for the innocent victims.
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Now Russell Moore, he is an odd bird.
This is NOT a political comment, but Russell Moore did show a lot of courage in publicly speaking out against evangelicals voting for Trump.
My point here is simply this: Moore was completely willing to risk his position at the ERLC, and almost lost his job as a result.
So, since Moore does not lack courage, in terms of risking the loss of his career status within the SBC… why then, is Trump the hill to die on, and not Mahaney? Isn’t it far more crucial to address abuse coverups within your own church community?
Another thing about Russell Moore that gives me pause. He thinks that egalitarians’ concern about abuse is a “red herring,” brought up by egalitarians only to discredit complementarian theology.
On the contrary.
Whenever a manmade theological grid is rigidly held, to the extent that it becomes more important than the actual human suffering of female bodies and souls, that is a red flag.
Not a “red herring.”
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Max,
You would think that some of the people who are hand wringing over diversity hires in the SBC would connect some dots and realize that only Al Mohler’s Calvinist are allowed positions of leadership and since a lot of Black Christians actually think Calvinism is an inherently racist doctrine there aren’t going to be a lot of qualified minority candidates.
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I’m happy to report that I don’t t belong to a particular group although the more I read, the more I realise my Baptist friends kept quiet about some of their more idiosyncratic doctrines when I was “pastoring” one of their churches a few years back. (Why was a Presbyterian running a Baptist church you might ask? Answer: because there were no Presbyterian churches in the neighbourhood and the Baptists were the next best thing, closely followed by the Apostolic church and the Methodists. We all got on famously and we regularly attended each others’ services,much to the confusion of the ministers/pastors/prophets)
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Lowlandseer,
My family left the SBC years ago, It’s one thing to throw out a particular group’s interpretation when it’s done transprently and with majority knowledge and approval. It’s another to intentionally hide and lie about what’s going on for years and ruin churches and people’s lives who aren’t on board with their new agenda. I would hope we could all agree that it is this very type of culture that leads to covering up greater offences against women and children. (and I am not saying only Calvinist abused and covered up sexual misconduct/assault as Paige Patterson is proof but the overwhelming quest for power is the heart of the culture where these things happen)
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TS00,
TSOO,
Your comment thread is a brilliant piece of writing, one which should be heeded. I find it odd and sheer trickery in believing that feminism is the root of all evils of this world. And those within the patriarchal/complementary church camp love to blame every one BUT themselves for the failings of any given culture.
Your wisdom is a breath of fresh air.
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When the baby-boomer generation is gone, the SBC will be solidly in the hands of the New Calvinists. Mohler is moving the chairs around now to assure that happens before he retires. He has been targeting the next generation all along. When the boomers are dead, the new reformers won’t feel so bad about taking over churches the old guys paid for. With only New Calvinists left in the SBC, they will look back on the Mohler-years as the best thing that ever happened to the SBC and Mohler as the greatest Southern Baptist who ever lived. They will build a chapel in his name, with a huge stain-glass window welcoming the pilgrims who come to honor and worship his image. Children of the new reformers will never know there was anything different about Southern Baptist belief and practice for 150+ years … a once-great evangelistic people of God will be no more.
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Because the connect-the-dots game has been drawing this picture for a while.
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And that, folks, says it all about doing church without God in America.
Great overall comment, Truthseeker.
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So refreshing to me, long a casualty of the SBC, to find the church I now attend. Yes, it is SBC. But there is room for more than one interpretation of scripture on so many things. The pastor makes crystal clear when leading services where the entire community is invited that if you already have a church home, unless the Lord leads otherwise to stay put and serve there. He is not out to sheep steal. There is no pressure about joining, and many serving in various capacities are not formal members. Women are definitely not silenced. It is open and friendly without breaking over into love bombing. There are ministries to the homeless, the hungry, the lonely, the addicted, the one’s facing pregnancies in less than great circumstances, and the abused.
It seems to be functioning well and pre fundamentalist takeover.
I cannot tell you what a breath of fresh air all that is!!
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I heard that for over a decade in Presbyterian circles. They perceive Mohler as the great savior of the once hopeless Baptist tradition, and everything he does is unquestionable.
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Karen,
“I find it odd and sheer trickery in believing that feminism is the root of all evils of this world.”
++++++++++++++
well, when it’s normal for one to have power but the new normal is their power is taken away and shared with those beneath them, it will feel very evil. the next step is to justify one’s feelings with arguments why it is so evil. arguments designed to separate out the evil them from the legit us.
i dunno, i just call very immature.
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This is a bit off topic and I have held off because of fear that I may come across as self centered, manipulative, whiny, complaining, person pleaser, etc. That list goes on for about 3 1/2 legal form pages of what I am trying not to do when ever I discuss anything concerning faith issues. Now that that is out of the way.
Over my near 40 years working with people with disabilities one thing has been extremely hard, dealing with death, it should not be, and we all need to move on as fast as possible not giving a foothold for Satan in our emotions. Basically one should not have emotions, I fail at that. Something came to a head over the last few weeks. About three months ago a parent of a student I have worked with for decades became seriously ill and needed help. I became involved, this is not new for me in fact it has been dozens if not over 100 times in my career. Just not this much involved.
I got a call over the Christmas holiday that she had fallen and went over to her house. I had been involved in getting her adult child with a Dev Dis a new place to live. Well I went over to pick her up, packed up her son’s stuff, got it to the group home van that came to pick him up got him off OK, then called the ambulance for her. She went into emergency and was getting much better over the next 2 weeks. I was so happy. I helped a great deal (not fishing for compliment just what happened) to get her many financial issues in line without taking on too much for potential conflict issues.
Well she started to go down hill and it was terrible, something I have seen just to many times with family members I was responsible for, students I watched die over long protracted illnesses, and their family members (again not fishing for sympathy, understanding, empathy etc.) setting context. I and a few others finally convinced her to let her son see her in the hospital, I was able to get a ride for him, it was one of her last fully lucid days, he cried along with her, and he held her hand said he loved her etc. I can report through all of this I shed no tears and exhibited no emotion at all (another gift from my evangelical days.) Inside it was tearing my heart out and I wept internally something I was profoundly ashamed of, still am. Another gift, very long story.
She passed a week ago, I was there just a few moments before she died, my voice was the last she heard this side of eternity, as with so many other folks. I did not preach at her, tell her the 4 spiritual laws read her the Romans road, I swore I would take care of her kid as best I could. I have only sworn that 1 time before and that is when I told my mom I would help with my nephew and, his words, I never wavered not one time ever. He told me that after I told him one time what a POS I am for not being a better uncle etc. I went to school to tell her son about his mothers passing, he turned and looked at me and said “where’s my mother”. That phrase took me back, I told him. It has been a hard week for him.
During this time I lost my sight in one eye due to an ongoing issue and was in and out of emergency for days. Its getting better but it requires I stay up all night putting medicine in every hour. Not sleeping fully for a week is a bit hard. Thanks for letting me say this.
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Excellent point. We learn and grow in tandem with our social networks. And then it takes courage to move on when the group goes south, and look again for a healthy social network aligned with our core beliefs. There seems to be an increasing number of people searching.
It used to be, “What church do you go to?” “Where is your membership?”
Now, it’s, “Do you do the organized institution? How is that working out? Or, what do you do for spiritual connection with others?”
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How about doing church/being the church without the middleman (or Jesus as the middleman)?
Hebrews 4: for we have Direct Access to:
– rest, vs. 1-11
– God’s powerful Word, vs. 12
– God watching over us, vs. 13
– Jesus, our only High Priest, accepting our confession, vs. 14
– Jesus’ empathy, vs. 15
– Confidence at the throne of grace for mercy & grace to help in time of need. vs. 16
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brian,
Oh, Brian, you’ve been going through so much. Thank you, as always, for sharing your voice and experiences here. I hope that your eyesight improves and that you can catch up on well-deserved rest.
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Many who are first will be last and many who are last will be first
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brian,
“Over my near 40 years working with people with disabilities one thing has been extremely hard, dealing with death, it should not be, and we all need to move on as fast as possible not giving a foothold for Satan in our emotions. Basically one should not have emotions, I fail at that. ”
+++++++++++++++++++++
hiya. thank you for the transparency.
i’m sure you don’t need anyone to tell you that the creature in the evangelical *upsidedown* has long tentacles. and loves to devour people first because it’s so hungry, then because it’s so needy, and finally just for sport.
so much is upsidedown there. like, ’emotional denial is good’.
who’s to say what emotional balance looks like (certainly not evangelicalism), as long as one is responsible and kind. to feel is infinitely better than not to feel.
you’ve made the world a kinder, healthier, more life-giving & better place.
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Yup, sounds like my bud Bob Malm: “I’m sorry that you were upset.” The SBC so far has shown relatively little sincerity.
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Very thoughtful, thought-provoking, something like that.
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Max,
We will be waiting a very long time for this I fear, desire it though we may. An acquaintance of mine who remained in the “ABC Calvinista church” (a story that was posted on TWW a few years ago about Calvista takeover in a midwestern church) gushed to another friend in my hearing at one point, “I am SOOO glad I’m a church where the men protect us, and we are under their protective headship.” To paraphrase Screwtape, “Brainwash them well enough my dear Wormwood and they will thank us for the very bondage they live under.”
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Fisher,
does it really take too big of a jump to see how the antichrist will deceive the church? I’ve never seen people need idols so much in their lives. But then, that’s how Christians have been programmed these last 20 to 30 years. Setting up Christian “stars” who make big money, and who are sold to the Christian community by any means necessary. It’s been setting up this way for years. its all the way thru the whole of Christianity, every denomination. I just can’t understand how these older people in the Southern Baptist community don’t understand that they are no longer being taught what they BELIEVE in. That their churches have been completely taken out from under them. People right now just HAVE to believe that some leader actually cares about abuse. Rather than realizing that God has eyes, and He has seen and heard and knows and metes out justice, they believe that the same people who have covered up things for years, or supported those who did, are going to save them from their terrible plight. Take care of YOURSELVES people, call the police when you are raped or abused, and stop thinking someone else is going to help you!!!!! And for the love of God, put your idols down. Al Mohler ain’t gonna save the SBC!!!! It would be great if his actions in the last few years had spoken louder than his words the last two weeks, but when people show you who they are…believe them the first time, ok?
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__
Crumbling Estates: “Bind the strong man and spoil his goods, perhaps?”
hmmm…
hahahahaha
Sweet Jesus, You’re good.
(tears)
The fervent effectually prayer of a righteous man availeth mucho…
Sòpy
—
Intermission:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d7_Hfz5TxnU
;~)
– –
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Apostle John said, the spirit of antichrist is already in the world (1 John 4). Heck, that spirit goes to church now! He has even slithered into the pulpit by stealth and deception. He doesn’t talk about Jesus.
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I’ve been wondering lately if God hasn’t brought C.J. Mahaney to justice yet because He’s been waiting to round them all up – Mohler, Piper, Dever, and more scoundrels than I can name.
Lord, please expose the whole corrupt system which has enabled abuse and kept people bound by lies, and distorted Your image.
Dee, Todd Wilhelm, Rachael Denhollander – thank you for your tireless work in such a time as this.
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Lurker and infrequent poster. Anyone noticed that in the latest information from the SBC they include Sovereign Grace Louisville? SGC is really my focus of interest and it was super interesting to see them act like SGC Louisville is Baptist?
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Here it is listed in the SBC church directory, as well as Mahaney in the Southern Baptist ministers directory:
http://www.sbc.net/church/2015064333/sovereign-grace-church-of-louisville
http://www.sbc.net/ministersearch/results.asp?query=mahaney
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Mohler is pushing for the Southern Baptist Ministers Directory to be yanked offline, after journalists used it in the recent exposes:
https://religionnews.com/2019/02/14/southern-baptist-minister-list-included-sex-offenders/
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Baptist Press article from 2015:
http://www.bpnews.net/44592/tellers-committee-named-for-sbc
“Members of the Tellers Committee for the June 16-17 Southern Baptist Convention annual meeting in Columbus, Ohio, have been named by SBC President Ronnie Floyd.”
“KENTUCKY — James Forbis, Sovereign Grace Church, Louisville; Choe Sergent, First Baptist Church Junction City, Junction City; Derek Simpson, Highview Baptist Church, Louisville”
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Lowlandseer,
I have no idea what that comment is supposed to mean. I think a lot of people don’t question pastors for many reasons. Some don’t care that much about doctrine and others care too much, perhaps? . Church is voluntary so I assume people have the freedom to deal with things in the way that suits them personally. It’s the hidden junk that’s so insidious. But it’s harder to hide when the congregation runs the church and holds their “employees” accountable.
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Eli,
How was that not political and how was what Moore did, courageous?. I thought he wanted to keep politics out of the church?
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Lily,
Bingo.
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Then it will be. Whatever Mohler wants Mohler gets. He is SBC’s king now, the main man, the point-person that the world looks to for all things Southern Baptist, the smartest of the whole bunch. Although, he really is only a leader of one of SBC’s many entities … but he does talk more than any of the rest of them, so he’s the default guy to go to.
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C.J. Mahaney and SGC-Louisville became Southern Baptists in 2015. Hard to believe, isn’t it?!
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/09/16/brother-cj-mahaney-hes-done-gone-and-joined-the-southern-baptists/
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There is a famous command in the Pauline epistles that is often translated “avoid every appearance of evil.” In practice, I think that the way this often actually works is that if you can’t avoid the actual substance of evil, at least you can try to conceal from public awareness the evil that is there. In this way, one might try to avoid the “appearing in public awareness” of evils that are there.
I don’t know Moore, but what you described in terms of his seemingly puzzling choice of “what hill to die on” might plausibly be related to a judgement about “which public perception is more hurtful to the tribe?” And as the SGM abuse scandal is not yet widely perceived, it may appear to be the smaller problem to deal with.
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9Mark of the Beast?
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Nancy2 can testify to how difficult that is. She’s been out of the oppressive local body for some time, but her husband sounds entrenched.
Short of a horde of divorces (women willing to walk away from husbands who refuse to see anything wrong with comp) and young women refusing marriage proposals from comp men, I don’t see it ending soon.
Inconvenience the men enough, they might deign to hide their beliefs a little more carefully. I really don’t see the leopards changing their spots in this respect.
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p.s. I too miss hearing the perspectives of Gram3 and Okrapod.
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I missed that post. Was flabbergasted. Wondering about any other SGC.