“To be born into, to go to school, to study, to learn, to play, to worship, to love, to work and to die in segregation and not have one single person who loved, mentored or guided me convey that there was any loss.” ― Robin DiAngelo
_______________
John MacArthur: I was there.
I need to state this up front. I received the basic information questioning the veracity of MacArthur’s claim that he was on the scene shortly after Martin Luther King Jr. was shot. Here is the quote that was sent to me. It can be found on the Grace to You website Social Injustice and the Gospel. Note the highlighted words.
I was again ministering in Mississippi with John Perkins and a group of black church leaders in April 1968 when Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated in Memphis. One of the men leading our group was Charles Evers, head of the Mississippi NAACP. (His brother Medgar had been killed in 1963 by the KKK.) When news of Dr. King’s murder broke, we drove to Memphis—and literally within hours after Dr. King was assassinated, we were at the Lorraine Motel, standing on the balcony where he was shot. We were also shown the place where James Earl Ray stood on a toilet to fire the fatal shot.
The provided information also indicated that he had made similar statements on multiple occasions. At the time, I was suspicious that MacArthur might not be telling the full truth. I usually become a bit skeptical when celebrity Christian leaders makes statements that either put them at the center of famous events or seem to signal that they are so important that upper levels of nations’ governments consult them for their expertise.Then there is the problem of virtue signaling which I think may be involved in this situation.
His story sounded odd. Here is this white boy in the South apparently palling around with the top leaders of the Civil Right movement. In some respects, I felt irritated because it appeared that MacArthur was draping himself in the glory and pain of the civil right leaders who had suffered at the hands of Jim Crow. It just felt wrong.
I didn’t have any sources that could give credence to my suspicions. However, one woman, Paige Rogers, was able to do what I couldn’t. She posted her results on NOQ Report. Exclusive: Iconic civil rights leader tells Pastor John MacArthur to stop lying.
Here is her bio found on NOQ.
Paige Rogers is a Christian artist and author, and a former professional practitioner in the field of Early Childhood Development. She is the creator of ThePaintingPastor.org, a blog offering Christian reflection, exhortation and discernment alongside various artistic techniques visually documented through Paige’s unique artistic endeavors. A lover of learning, Paige is an avid enthusiast of history, civics, political geography and human nature, physical geography and the sciences. She is an incurably inquisitive and chronically creative “egghead.” Paige is a strong supporter of America’s service members and veterans.
A video of John MacArthur claiming that he *was there* with Charles Evers.
Charles Evers: John MacArthur needs to stop lying.
Evers is now 97 years old. It is logical to assume that this night is seared in his memory. Rogers says:
In researching this article, I spoke with Mr. Evers by phone, and he summarized his relationship with John MacArthur in four words: “He don’t know me.” One of my research partners also interviewed Evers, the full recording of which is provided below.
According to Rogers:
“To the question “Did he [Charles Evers] learn of the death of Martin Luther King, Jr. while in his NAACP office and in the company of John MacArthur and John Perkins?” Evers responded:
I know that didn’t happen… I know when I heard about Martin I was headed to Natchez, in my car driving, and my secretary called me and told me that Dr. King had been shot. And I said, “What!” (interview at 1:54)
No, ain’t nobody with me—period—in no office. (3:47)
That’s a lie. That’s a lie. (5:22)
Evers reportedly had what is now known affectionately as “a car phone.”
According to Rogers:
“And did Evers travel to Memphis to visit the Lorraine Motel and the boarding house with John MacArthur and John Perkins?”
He [John MacArthur] would be lying. Wasn’t nobody with me. (2:48)
I don’t know what he [John MacArthur] knows, but I know I wasn’t—that ain’t true about me… I don’t know the stuff he’s talking about. (4:50)
I did not go nowhere with John. (6:17)
Evers: “Tell MacArthur to stop lying.”
After viewing these two videos, this next statement from Evers caused me to. say. that this post must be written.
“Tell him to stop telling that lie.”
What about John Perkins? Was MacArthur with him?
Perkins does not mention being with Evers or MacArthur. His account of what happened that evening contradicts MacArthur.
Was John Perkins with Charles Evers and John MacArthur in Evers’ NAACP office when, as MacArthur claims, “a man burst through the door and said, ‘Martin Luther King has been assassinated,’”? [14] Although Dr. Perkins (a long-time friend of John MacArthur’s father) declined to answer on the record when contacted, he had previously offered his heartfelt account of what transpired that fateful evening [15].
On an April 2018 United We Pray podcast, host Isaac Adams asked his guest, John Perkins, “What was it like when Martin Luther King was shot? What was happening? Who were you with? Describe that for me.” Dr. Perkins responded:
And so when I got in that evening, from [preaching the Gospel in] my rural school, I was getting called on the phone, but also at the same time, when I got there, some children and another lady in the community ran out to meet me. They saw me and they said, “I just heard it on the news that Martin Luther King was dead.” (podcast at 8:40)
Rogers notes:
“Further, John Perkins’ recollection that he was informed of the death of King by a woman and children from the community, starkly contrasts with MacArthur’s narrative.”
Did MacArthur’s description of his activities once he arrived at the scene of the assassination make sense?
Rogers presents a detailed forensic view of the murder scene. I will post some of the details but the readers should read her documentation of these finding.
MacArthur claims the shot was fired from the toilet.
According to pastor John MacArthur, he “stood on the blood spots” on the balcony of the Lorraine motel, and, after being shown “where James Earl Ray stood on a toilet to fire the fatal shot,” MacArthur claims to have “stood in the little bathroom on top of the toilet” [19] [20] [21].
Yet, police reports are clear that James Earl Ray did not fire the shot from the toilet, nor was he ever suspected of doing so.
According to the report by the Memphis Police Department, the fatal shot was fired from the bathtub in the boarding house, where shoe smears were found.
Roberts documents, via pictures, that the shot had to be fired from the bathtub since MLK could not be seen on the balcony from the toilet. She has other posted other photos that clearly show why the shot had to be fired from the bathtub. Did MacArthur stand on this toilet in order to view the scene?
MacArthur claimed since forensics “hadn’t been developed,” he got to stand on the balcony and see MLK’s blood just hours after the shooting.
And in those days the police weren’t nearly as protective, forensics hadn’t developed to what they had and they didn’t necessarily protect crime scenes. So we went to the motel, up to the landing, saw the blood where Martin Luther King had been shot just hours before by James Earl Ray.
According to pastor John MacArthur, he “stood on the blood spots” on the balcony of the Lorraine motel, and, after being shown “where James Earl Ray stood on a toilet to fire the fatal shot,” MacArthur claims to have “stood in the little bathroom on top of the toilet” [19] [20] [21].
However, Rogers discovered reports that the area was on a 3 day lockdown. Also, the area was cordoned off within 10 minutes of the shooting.
However, the official police report explains that, “According to the transcription from the police dispatcher’s radio log at 6:10, 10 minutes after the shooting, there were 135 police officers in the immediate area, and that the complete area had been sealed off” [28].
Two things to think about.
- In the following statement from the post MacArthur appears to make himself the focus of attention right after the assassination. He needed to be *escorted.* He was *pale as a ghost.* MLK had just been assassinated and poor John was *pale.* This strikes an off note. MacArthur has gone on to live a rich and fulfilled life. MLK did not. MacArthur also claims he was the victim of Jim Crow because of his friendship with Evers and Perkins. He claims to have been part of that community. Hubris?
The immediate issue was that there were serious things going on in the street in Jackson and they were trying to get me out of there because I was as pale as a ghost. And here we were worried what might happen to me. And so they escorted me. And then they said, “You know, we’re going to go to Jackson. We want to…we want to go…we’re going to Memphis, we want to see what happened..”
Those men were my friends. That was my community. I couldn’t buy groceries in that town when I got back in Mendenhall, Mississippi. I couldn’t eat in a restaurant.
2. If this is a tall tale, why did MacArthur tell it?
African Americans have suffered greatly-first in slavery and then under Jim Crow. MacArthur, a rich white man, should not insert himself into their history and pretend he was actually a part of their story.
I love this response by Rogers.
Perhaps it is true that “Every man is a hero of his own story,” [33].-
Kudos to Rogers for her well-researched post.
______________
Addendum
I was about to post when this statement, purportedly from MacArthur working with Phil Johnson.
Phil Johnson says this whole thing has been made up by critics of MacArthur. What does that matter? There is an old saying:
Just because you’re paranoid, doesn’t mean someone is not out to get you.
In other words, all truth is God’s truth even if it’s spouted by someone we don’t like. Thoughtful individuals will respond directly to the evidence submitted. I don’t care who interviewed him. Someone did and that interview is what matters.
Also, Evers has not been a *usual* critic of MacArthur and he has claimed that MacArthur lied. Evers is a highly esteemed name in the public square. He is rightly a hero and has endured much discrimination in his life. If I were Team MacArthur, I would be careful not to throw him under the bus. Things could quickly get out of hand.
PS-I will believe Evers until somebody can prove to me that he is lying.
First
MacArhur has sometimes been quite critical of the civil rights movement, yet he doesn’t want to appear unsympathetic. Being at the shrine of the martyred Dr. King gives him credibility (at least in his own mind). It’s kind of like the person who says, “Well I knew the one black kid at my school when I was in fifth grade..”
You want to pretend you are relevant when you aren’t.
3
Translation:
“WHAT ABOUT ME? WHAT ABOUT MEEEEE? WHAT ABOUT MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE?
Like a two-year-old who HAS to be the Center of Attention…
If he WAS there with one of today’s “car phones” he’d be snapping and uploading Selfie after Selfie after Selfie with MLK’s body and blood in the background — “ME! ME! ME! SEE? SEE? SEE?”
I must confess. I have never been under Dee’s kitchen table with her pugs. However, I have been in King Tut’s tomb.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
P.S. Does anyone remember the Pious Piper’s account of an Exorcism where everything revolved around Piper’s Faith, Theology, and Actions?
“The demon makes her pull a knife — but don’t panic, PIPER HAS A COAT!”?
Same thing. You see so much of this Resume Padding among MenaGAWD (remember Ergun Caner?); at least he didn’t claim to be a Navy SEAL.
i.e.
“LIES!
FAKE NEWS!
CONSPIRACY! CONSPIRACY! CONSPIRACY!”
Just like today’s paranoid politics —
Of the World but not in it.
The facts definitely don’t add up in JM’s story, but the fact that he made himself the center of the story is super creepy and wrong.
This white boy sez:
It should feel wrong; it’s a type of STOLEN VALOR.
“I know when I heard about Martin I was headed to Natchez, in my car driving, and my secretary called me and told me that Dr. King had been shot. And I said, “What!” (interview at 1:54)”
The part about getting a phone call on the road is a bit weird because that was in the very early days of car phones before they were popular or affordable.
There is a fishy information all around.
“Evers reportedly had what is now known affectionally as “a car phone.”
This would have been 1968 when Luther was assinated
Car phones were not in use until 1982.
I have a hard time believing John McArthur’s story. But I’m not sure Evers is remembering correctly either as car phones weren’t available yet.
Bridget,
I think there were some available before then. Elvis’ car (now at the Rock and Roll HOF in Cleveland) had one.
Actually, car phones were available in the 1960s. They were just very bulky and very rare, usually found only in limousines and top-end luxury cars. I grew up in California Car Culture of the period, and they were also “bling” in some custom cars.
At one classic car show I attended a couple years ago, one of the cars in the show was a late 1950s top-of-the-line Cadillac Eldorado once owned by some Hollywood celebrity, and it had a car phone installed. (And a record player, the shellac-and-vinyl predecessor of a auto sound system.)
Bridget,
Car phones were introduced in the 40’s. Do some research.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
P.S. I don’t think Mr Evars was driving an Eldorado, but car phones could be installed in most cars; just that they were somewhat expensive. They were also installed in cars for people (like business executives) who could not afford to be out-of-contact while travelling.
And a hassle compared to today’s cellphones. This was before direct dialing became universal, and like pre-Area Code “long distance”, you first had to connect to a special “mobile operator” who would connect you to the mobile phone.
It would be interesting to know what kind of “car phone” he’s discussing since Midland-type duplex radios, that had calling capability AND gave you the ability to talk to truckers and anyone else using radios on the road, were pretty common in that era. Dukes of Hazzard and Smokey and the Bandit, as examples of pop culture showing them, come to mind immediately. My dad had one in his bush truck from the time I could remember anything and I was born in ’73. I remember him having an “Autotel” truck phone as well.
Ha, found it. They were first used in 1946. (Of course, Wikipedia is the source so take it for what it’s worth . . )
Also having a hard time believing that John MacArthur had much interaction with the South in 1968. He was born and raised in Southern California.
I was a big fan of MacArthur from 1980 to maybe 1983, when during his radio broadcast his authoritarianism became too much to swallow. He’s always had three flaws: divisiveness, lack of humility, and the aforementioned authoritarian tendencies. Eventually, the flaws became too apparent to ignore. In this 50th celebration week of his first sermon at GCC, he is facing accusations of bullying, nepotism, inappropriately firing professors, supporting a child molester, failing to support a rape victim, and now, “embellishing”. Yet I suppose we won’t see even a blush. It’s tragic.
His father, Jack MacArthur, had befriended John Perkins when he lived in California. I imagine that’s where JMac’s connection with Perkins began.
Hey y’all, I have never, ever, heard or read such a serious allegation as this one being made against Pastor John. Never. Please tread carefully.
Unlike the utterly disgraced James MacDonald at Harvest who cannot go 5 minutes without some gross immorality or another, Pastor John has remained above reproach for nearly 5 decades.
He deserves the benefit of the doubt based upon what I have read here.
Vinnie,
I too went through a MacArthur fan phase, in the late 90s-early 00s. What broke it for me was the nodding acquaintance given to the attack-dog tactics that Phil Johnson, Frank Turk, and the rest of the Pyromaniacs used on Internet Monk. That tore the scales from my eyes.
I saw a documentary last year that covered multiple newscasts on 4/4/68. I seem to recall the area being shown as cordoned off. I’ll see if I can find the one I saw.
Charles Evers is 96 years old. Perhaps his memory is not what it once was.
Also saw a late 60s flick recently with a guy acting big shot with his car phone, so there’s that.
I simply rolled my eyes and moved on when I read this claim of MacArthur some time ago. Johnson tries hard to rescue him, but anyone who was ever in that room, or stood on that toilet would know, without any further investigation, that it would not have been possible for the shot to have been fired from there. Nor is it likely that MacArthur would confuse a bathtub with a toilet.
There are a lot of individuals who question the various stories surrounding the sixties’ assassinations. I’m afraid I would have to add this one to the list of questionable stories.
I can only second this. I’ve heard this MacArthur story and it just seemed *wrong* to me, especially in light of the recent “Statement on Social Justice.” It’s almost as if JMac is using his own personal experience from 50 years ago to justify why, 50 years later, he can be so critical of “social justice” issues.
Of course, my bias is that I have a problem with a well-off, influential white guy telling people of color that they really can’t have social justice with their Gospel, but you know, that’s just me.
senecagriggs,
Ageism…Also, as you should know, people who have memory problems when they are old tend to struggle with short term memory. Long term memory is usually most stable. This was the most imp thing to happen to him in his life. My guess is he remembered. Maybe macArthur is experiencing *forgetfulness* as well.
Eeyore,
Frank Turk did not survive his run in with me. He was forced too close down his social media after saying something disgusting about me.
Really? And how do you know this?
GreekEpigraph,
I checked this out prior to posting.
Bridget,
I knew this would come up since it had come up for me. They had car phones in the 1960s and before. My father bought one and had it installed but never used it. It cost too much money. he just thought it looked cool.
drstevej,
Awesome! What was it like? I bought a ring at an antique store. It was a scarab ring that was made by Tiffanys when his tomb was discovered. The scarab signifies eternal life. Seriously. Tell us about it.
A woman in Raleigh actually said this to me. She also said that this black girl was treated well and has no reason to be hateful to whites. I asked her if she had ever visited her home or talked with the girl’s parents about what they had experienced instead of judging it from her rich white girl perspective. She refused to answer me.
Way too many people see life thru their own biased lenses. If she didn’t see a problem, there must not be any problem.
I wouldn’t trust him any farther than I can throw a huey helicopter with one arm.
Bridget,
Hi Bridget:
Well, no. Civilian car phones were in use in 1946 (VHF). You saw them in TV shows by 1960.
Admittedly, in the 40’s about 117 thousand calls were made a month on them, which wasn’t much. The industry grew and expanded quickly however. I believe these phones expanded into the UHF market around 1964. There were over 1.5 million car phones in the US by 1964.
For example Pacific Telephone leased them for about 85.00/month. Calls ran 50 cents a minute and rental fee was 25.00/month.
It would make complete sense for Mr. Ivers to have a phone in his car. Civil Rights leaders were targets, they needed to stay in touch with others…
Motorola came up with the first mobile phone as we understand one in 1973, and it cost over 3 thousand dollars (usd)
Did they have phone zombies back then too?
Perry Mason had one 😀 Or was it Paul Drake?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_phone
Jet magazine, August 1958 snippet about jazz musician Red Prysock being pulled over for using his car telephone while driving:
https://books.google.com/books?id=2rYDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA63#
BD,
Well, maybe he did have one then, if he could afford it.
In a careful reading of MacAurthur’s first statement at the top, I don’t feel like he is stating that he was literally present with Charles Evers or even John Perkins, it is more implied that he was in a way that you will think that he said it when he didn’t, quite. But in reading other statements of his, he does seem to come out and state it more clearly in others. Either way, he has certainly expected people to believe that he was and now he needs to fess up and attacking the messenger is not going to help if he was fibbing.
“I was again ministering [define “ministering”] in Mississippi with John Perkins [define “with” – in the company of? associated with in some way?] and a group of black church leaders [including John Perkins? Not clear] in April 1968 when Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated in Memphis. One of the men leading our group [define “leading” – did it mean he was with them at the time? or just that they were associated with him? was he aware that he was “leading” this group? or was he more their inspiration?] was Charles Evers, head of the Mississippi NAACP. (His brother Medgar had been killed in 1963 by the KKK.) When news of Dr. King’s murder broke, we [“we” is not defined. The suggestion planted is that it includes Charles Evers, but does it actually say so?] drove to Memphis—and literally within hours [24? 36? 72? 168? 720?] after Dr. King was assassinated, we were at the Lorraine Motel, standing on the balcony where he was shot. We were also shown the place [shown by whom? from what distance?] where James Earl Ray stood on a toilet to fire the fatal shot.”
So, from this statement it appears MacArthur is saying he was with a group of black church leaders when Dr. King was assassinated and that at some time they subsequently went to see the place where it happened.
Hmm, reminds me of a certain former president that claimed on numerous occasions, but in particular when meeting the Israeli Prime Minister, that helped film the liberation of several concentration camps at the end of WWII. In fact, he never left Culver City, CA and slept in his bed every night.
Kind of the way he’s being supported right now? Attack & discredit the messenger. I noticed he did not say anything to the effect of “yes, he was too there!” lol
If he was head of the Mississippi NAACP, maybe they had provided it?
For anyone who is a fan of the Andy Griffith Show, remember there was an episode in which a big shot come through town with a car phone. It actually makes alot of sense to me that someone like Evers, would have had a car phone at the time, considering he was traveling around the South,mostly in hostile areas.
John Perkins confirms that John Macarthur was with him in Mendenhall on the night Martin Luther King was assassinated. (Beyond Charity: The Call to Christian Community Development, Introduction, Page 14).
Also Branson Howse was the person behind the Jonathan Leeman hit piece that I unwittingly posted here a couple of days ago. So again, caution with a pinch of salt might be required.
Ever talk to any older person in Dallas who was there in November 1963?
The Warren Report and other interviews conducted showed wide variations by eyewitnesses all standing within 100 yards of the assassination.
My “guess” is that Mac was in a large enough group and was young enough to have been present, but not a real player, and thus not remembered by anyone.
As to details, Mac is probably off a bunch, whether by embellishment or poor memory, or poor recounting from the very beginning that has been retold and now is part of his memory that he actually believes.
If I were asked to, I would not rely on Mac’s complete story, especially details.
I’m not sure I would rely on Evers’ either.
Jackson and some of those other civil rights guys have been caught in some tall tales.
The car phone thing is an intriguing detail.
Checking other biographies would confirm if those guys used them to communicate. If Evers had one, King and others would have had them too. They’ll be mentioned if they were using them.
Wasn’t John MacArthur at Woodstock also?
The #MacArthurWasThere hashtag on Twitter has some interesting photoshops…
https://twitter.com/Lex_Lutheran/status/1092568505721868288
dee,
Tut’s tomb was about the size of a four car garage and had painting / cartouches on the walls and ceiling. There was a platform in the center where his casket and mummy was placed in a glass display. http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/08/04/article-2022313-0227CD32000004B0-780_468x618.jpg
The rest of space was originally packed with Tut’s possessions. Later at the Cairo Museum I got to see what they removed. Tut died around age ten so this shows the opulence of the Pharaohs even when they were young.
But, hey… they worshiped dung beetles.
BTW, I did not see John McArthur in Tut’s tomb.
After reading this, all I can think about is how that back in the 1980’s Mike Warnke managed to cash in for many years with all of his “embellishments” from his memories when he was allegedly a Satanic high priest! Time will tell if MacArthur is on the level. Somehow, though, the truth always has a habit of eventually showing up.
However, I do find it very odd that MacArthur’s ‘damage control team’ would assert that people would go to such great lengths to discredit his recollections and essentially turn this into some kind of ‘smear campaign’ against him.
How can you “blush” when You Can Do No Wrong?
Because Pastor John is LOOOOOOOORD, of course.
That’s how Johnson retaliates against everything. He very rarely deals in facts, and just used ad hominem attacks. He also goes out of his way to attack people, sometimes even friends of JM.
See:http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2019/02/five-decades-of-faithfulness-will.html?m=1
There’s always been a lot of “talketh out of both sides of thy mouth” going on in certain corners of American Christianity in regard to race relations. It took Southern Baptists 150 years to repent of the racial sins of their beginnings prior to the Civil War (even SBC pastors and deacons in the South were slave-holders!). Southern Baptists finally adopted a resolution on racial reconciliation in 1995, but it has yet to repent of the founders’ theology which they felt supported their slavery rights (Calvinism). Indeed, reformed theology has made a resurgence in the ranks after being absent for a century and a half; SBC’s default belief and practice were distinctly non-Calvinist since the Civil War. Fortunately, civil rights settled the race issue before the young reformers came on the scene.
Cellular was not invented till 1973. Even then, it was not available for the average person.
“Mobile” is not cellular and required a base station. Distance was a product of topography and height of tower. Service was expense and non-private in at least some circumstances.
I used mobile in 1987 and the equipment was not cellular.
The guy has shown his colors for decades. I worked alongside one of his products from the staff of GCC and TMS. He is, in my opinion, an arrogant narcissist. He’s also almost certainly a liar in this case. His story does not add up. His right-hand man and co-conspirator Phil Johnson never adequately addressed a single substantive point, just used the blanket allegation of smear and attacked the messenger, pure ad hominem.
I’ve seen the type, served alongside the type, experienced abuse from the type—I know the NPD personality type, and MacArthur screams NPD, even the set of his face (and I don’t know exactly why I know this).
My mother was abused in an extraordinarily awful way as a child by her father, who died before I was born. Scarred her for life. Many years ago we were watching a 60 Minutes episode (or similar program) about a daughter who accused her well-known psychologist father of having abused her in the same manner my mom had been abused. The daughter gave her tearful account, then they interviewed the father, who denied everything. My mother watched the father for a few second, then stiffened up and said in this flat but urgent way: “That guy’s an abuser!” She just knew. I believe her absolutely. Something about his demeanor, she KNEW.
I feel the same way about MacArthur as a malignant narcissist. I know saying this is not prudent, not reasonable, maybe not fair. But I’ve seen this before, I’ve experienced it for years, seen it from the inside and the outside. I am almost 100% certain that MacArthur is a malignant narcissist—just like my mom made that pronouncement about the psychologist years ago.
I heard that Elvis might be in there for sure.
How about Jimmy Hoffa?
There’s a big difference between being an eyewitness to a murder and being someone who was in a place where they heard something shocking that changed the world. The eyewitness accounts of the first sort of event tend to be disjointed and conflicting, that’s something criminal investigators know and deal with. The accounts of the second type of event tend to be very reliable and tend to be seared into the memory—you probably remember them decades later better than your breakfast this morning. I remember exactly what I was doing, where I was, what the weather was like, etc., the moment I heard that the Twin Towers were hit. I remember that moment, just where I was as I was driving into work (southbound on Highway 100 in Edina, MN, right at the Highway 62 exit), who was announcing it on the radio (Dan Coles), his demeanor (incredulity) and the first person I spoke with about it (Bernie, my co-worker, as we were entering the north entrance of the Metro Building, and his demeanor (he thought I was joking). I remember the weather, I remember everything. Burned in.
That is surely the way it was with Evers, a civil rights leader. MacArthur is lying.
Pingback: Linkathon! – Phoenix Preacher
Who would stand in the blood of a murder victim?
2007: “I climbed up on the toilet to look through the window where he held the gun.”
2009: “And Charles was talking and a man burst through the door and said, “Martin Luther King has been assassinated.” That happened that night while I was with Charles and John and some others.” …”And in those days the police weren’t nearly as protective, forensics hadn’t developed to what they had and they didn’t necessarily protect crime scenes. So we went to the motel, up to the landing, saw the blood where Martin Luther King had been shot just hours before by James Earl Ray. I actually went to the little building opposite the motel, went up on the second flood [sic], stood up on the toilet and looked out the window where James Earl Ray had shot him. And I was there at that very, very, very crucial time.”
2017: “And I stood in the little bathroom on top of the toilet where James Earl Ray shot him out the window. ”
Problems: He claims James Earl Ray stood on the toilet. If he’s been there, he would have known the shot wasn’t fired from the toilet but from the bathtub. He claims he was with Charles when he got the word that King had been assassinated. Wrong. Charles, in his accounts, has always stated he was driving when he got the news. He claims he was able to view the crime scenes because the police weren’t protecting the scenes, but according to records, the boarding house was blocked off for at least 3 days!
I don’t know if MacArthur’s story is true or not in its main points, but I would suspect that at the very least it’s a heavy spin on his role.
What bothers me more is what has bothered me for some time: the immediate, harsh, and ad hominem attacks on anyone who disagrees with the MacArthur party line. I’ve seen this again and again, including against faithful fellow believers. It’s wrong, and it’s cult-like in many ways.
And I know that some of his followers are dishonest, because I have family who have been MacArthur acolytes for many years, and they have done some really underhanded and manipulative stuff, and been completely unrepentant about it, and even judgmental of others.
I do my best to stay away from it all, and I rarely comment on it, but I sure think it doesn’t help the church.
I’m reluctant to bring the “C” word up again … but, during my long church experience (70 years), I have known several hyper-Calvinists who fit this description. Of course, I have known non-Calvinist church folks who are also just as ugly in their “Christian” walk (some of the meanest people on the planet go to church).
Muff Potter,
Steve Martin for sure http://p0.ipstatp.com/large/005b39b86814009375a8
I wonder if Paige Rogers investigated MacArthur’s claim that he was jailed during his time working with John Perkins.
The John Perkins book (1993), referenced above, plainly states MacArthur was with him in 1968 when MLK was killed. Link is below.
Last September, in my office, we were retelling the events of 9/11. To my surprise, the couple of people who work with me had differing accounts of significant details as to how we all came to find out, and who did what to get a TV up and working.
Differing remembrances to significant events should not be surprising.
https://books.google.com/books?id=MLQS21wxz4IC&pg=PA14&dq=Beyond+charity+John+Perkins+John+Macarthur+%22was+with+me+in+mississippi+in+1968%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi18aChpqXgAhUROq0KHYpfAFoQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=Beyond%20charity%20John%20Perkins%20John%20Macarthur%20%22was%20with%20me%20in%20mississippi%20in%201968%22&f=false
Phil Johnson’s 2006 version of the arrest says nothing about the shooting: http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2006/02/john-macarthur-arrested-in-mississippi.html?m=1. Did I hear right that MacArthur did not talk publicly about the shooting before 2009?
So it looks like this is yet another hit piece on a respected evangelical pastor. MacArthur and Perkins have been consistent….this watchdog website has not. When you have a bias against someone you are liable to believe anything to prove your point of view. When the “root of bitterness” develops it’s hard to let go. John Perkins has verified his account so repent, apologize, and let it go man.
AT&T started mobile service in 1949. It was not the same kind of thing as now, but it existed.
https://ethw.org/The_Foundations_of_Mobile_and_Cellular_Telephony
Ishy,
I remember there was a car phone in the Audrey Hepburn Sabrina movie
Virgil,
I’m glad you shared this.
Virgil,
That may be, the central question was whether he was with Evers, whether he, a young unknown, was allowed to walk right by police barricades and officers and stand on the toilet from whence James Earl Ray (couldn’t possibly have) killed Martin Luther King, whether he was allowed to walk right past police barricades and essentially stand in MLK’s blood. He very obviously and without question did not do that. He completely lied about the primitive forensics investigations “back then”, he made stuff up. He did not do that stuff at all. He is lying. He’s taking a little something insignificant and turning it into a false narrative which puts him at the center of the world on that fateful day in history.
He’s making himself into some civil rights personage that he is not. I think it’s absolutely disgusting to lie about Martin Luther King’s blood, to use that man’s death and eliminate your multiple degrees of separation from it to promote your own brand. There will be a reckoning for that man.
Life is like a box of chocolates…
Here are two older accounts, one from Evers’s memoir and the other from an AP story. Those were some traumatic days. Certainly everyone heard the news of King’s death more than once. Charles Evers’s own life was immediately threatened in a series of phone calls.
Have No Fear: The Charles Evers Story (1996), p. 223:
On the evening of April 4, 1968, I was driving highway 28 to Natchez. I had the radio on, but my mind was on that night’s rally in Natchez. The next day I was supposed to fly to Memphis to help Martin with a Negro garbage strike there. Suddenly a white voice came on the radio: Martin had been shot in Memphis. He’d been staying at the Lorraine Motel…
“Phoner Tells Negro Leader: You’re Next,” Chicago Tribune, 5 April 1968 (dateline Jackson, MS, April 4, 1968): Charles Evers, Negro Leader, said tonight that he had been threatened by a telephone caller after Dr. Martin Luther King was shot in Memphis. …
Gets Word at Home
Evers was at home here when he received word that King had died. As he heard the news, he said only, “He’s dead. He’s dead. He’s dead.”
Virgil,
Virgil:
Thanks for sharing that. That should put to rest the claim that everything being claimed is a lie. MacArthur was there, with Perkins, in 1968, ministering, and was with Perkins when MLK was killed.
That is not an insignificant matter for a Southern evangelical at that time.
The rest of the details, or at least some of them, may be embellished, however.
MacArthur is currently engaged in a debate within evangelicalism over “Social Justice”. I am sure that this is resurrected at this time to affect that debate.
But it’s impossible to know what all should be made about it.
Very seldom does someone lie in this manner completely and totally, especially when they know there are people who can corroborate or deny what they said. The way lies are usually told is you take a little something, something of no great significance, and turn it into a big something that makes you the Center of the Universe, the Big Thing, a Personage of Great Importance. Those are the worst sort of lies, the ones based on a tiny grain of truth.
Obviously, the truth is that John MacArthur’s dad hung around some civil rights leaders and minorities at a time when that was not such a popular thing to do. John MacArthur apparently was introduced to some of these people at that time. I don’t think these facts can be disputed. It may have been a brave and noble thing for the MacArthurs to do and it may have been a cynical and self-serving thing. The MacArthurs were hanging around with minorities at a time when it was unpopular to do so. That’s indisputable. They have that in common with the Apostle Paul, who hung around gentiles, who were thought of as vermin in the Jewish culture of the day, but they also have that in common with Jim Jones, who was a strong supporter of civil rights from the 50s through the 70s—but of course, with anything but selfless motives.
That fact standing alone means nothing. What means something to me is that MacArthur knows darned well what happened, knows darned well he didn’t walk past a police barricade to stand in that bathroom or stand in MLK’s blood. If he did so, he’d have almost certainly been arrested for tampering with evidence at a crime scene. Of course, can one imagine a scenario in which he could even get close to those places? Let me reiterate: he lied.
drstevej,
Seeing the pyramids in Egypt is on my short list. I am envious! ROFL on the MacArthur comment.
SiteSeer,
“One of the men leading our group” [define “leading” – did it mean he was with them at the time? or just that they were associated with him?
+++++++++++++++++++
“define leading”… ha. that’s a fun one.
leading (in christian culture): whatever a man is doing at any given moment.
Hold it right there!
I did not publish this material that I received months ago since I could not verify it. However, when I saw the video with Charles Evers I decided it deserved a hearing.
MacArthur could clear this up and should clear this up. Evers obviously is .not happy. MacArthur knows his Bible. That alone who’ll prompt him to make a call to Evers and work it out.
Charles Evers is a civil rights hero and I do not plan to dismiss what he has to say because Team MacArthur is upset that some people they don’t like posted the interview. Tough bananas to all of them. They need to do the right thing and reconcile with Evers. Isn’t that in the Bible somewhere?
Shane,
PS -so you are saying that Evers if lying? I just want to be clear about this.
I havde no idea. I might shoot her a note and ask her.
Virgil,
Good pickup./ I learned something. I didn’t realize that MacArthur went to Bob Jones. That might explain why I perceive what seems to be his emphasis on rules/law. etc.
dee,
We also climbed a passageway to the King’s Chamber in the center of the Great Pyramid. That was breath-taking.
Actually, unless you have spent 24/7 with an individual, I would advise you to *tread carefully.*
There have been a number of concerns raised about MacArthur’s ministry, not the least of which is how alleged rape victims have been treated. There have also been questions raised about the money flow when it comes to his family. Then there is the mess surrounding their accreditation-bullying and intimidation.
Never forget that although we are positionally holy, we are still functioning sinners. That includes MacArthur. I have come to the conclusion that pastors should do whatever they can not to be thrown into the light as celebrities. The money and the adulation usually have a deleterious affect on most people.
Give me the quiet pastors who love their congregation and serve outside of the limelight. Yes, they are sinners as well. But at least they are not surrounded by teams of people who want to pretend he is tjust a little better than the next person.
The number one profession of men who falsely claim to be a Navy SEAL is clergy.
dee,
Shane’s not really saying anything at all. He’s just trying to smear. You tell the truth about the cult leader/celeb church leader, expect the ad hominem attacks. Do not expect anyone in power or any of their supporters like Shane to address the truth, to acknowledge any points. Expect them to rage and spew bile at anyone who tells the truth. That’s the way they roll. They’re not saying anything in particular, they’re just hating the light that shines on their deeds.
drstevej,
I will pray that God forgives me for being envious of your experience. How long ago were you there? Do you think it is a safe area to visit now? When Bill comes home I plan to tell him of your travels!
Where did John Perkins say they all drove to Memphis together and walked through the crime scene the night of the shooting. Saying they were in the same room when the news broke is very different from walking through the crime scene the night it happened. The first is believable, the 2nd is not.
Law Prof,
I think sometimes folks can wax eloquent. Instead of the 6 inch minnow, they wrestled with a Big Cobia.
1. Charles Evers believes that MacArthur lied.
2.As a Christian, MacArthur should approach him and work it out.
3. I have nothing of which to repent in this particular regard although repentance is a common practice in my day to day life.
4. I shall pray that these two men will be brave enough to work it through. Won’t you join me?
I’ve heard from members of Team MacArthur before. Speaking of repentance, Frank Turk closed shop but still owes me an apology. I didn’t sue him and that, in itself, shows that I am not vengeful.
Dee,
Yes, might be. He said he went for two years. Didn’t want to be there, but his father made him. Then transferred to Pacific College.
What I find most fascinating, and laughably ironic is PJ’s upset tone regarding these recent events. With their theistic determinism, they ought to be glorying in God’s will having been fulfilled as all of this was determined to occur in eternity past.
I am surprised that MacArthur tolerates the antics of the Pyromaniancs. MacArthur strikes me as more subdues. Does he use them to play good cop/bad cop, allowing Johnson et al take the hits?
I want to repeat this loud and clear. I have held onto this info for a long time because I didn’t have proof. That changed when I saw the video of Charles Evers. I wonder if the attack on those us who respect Evers is a way for them to subtly go after Evers which they know would be a serious mistake?
Team MacArthur should deal with the Evers interview as Christians. MacArthur must speak with Evers and work it out between them. Both of them are old men, Evers more so. Let’s get this worked out now.
Do you think they have the chops to do so?
Great comment.God ordained this to happen according to their paradigm. All the more reason for MacArthur to go and meet with his old friend. Now that would be a meeting worth recording.
dee,
I went in 1974 as a part of a Dallas Seminary study trip. It was during the Sadat era. It’s a much different place now. I googled this: https://traveltips.usatoday.com/able-enter-pyramids-egypt-106535.html
It’s all predetermined until somebody gets their feelings or their bottom line hurt!
Shane,
John Perkins verified about 10% of his account, the prosaic, no big deal part of the account. Everyone else who was there, such as Evers, is either refusing to comment or saying that he’s lying about the other 90% of it. It’s obvious he stood on no toilet. Been proven wrong. Obvious the police sealed the area. So he didn’t go up there and stand in MLK’s blood, didn’t go to the bathroom =, didn’t do any of that stuff, the stuff which makes his story worth telling.
Shane, he’s a liar. Just repent, apologize and get over your support of an abusive liar.
Get over it, man.
Then again, you won’t be reading this, anyway. You’re a bit prosaic yourself: Just the very typical ho-hum, here it comes again, hit-and-run troll for the cult leader, who jumps in quickly to take a few nasty little shots, then like the gutless wonder you are, runs and hides back in the comfort of the cult, never to return, to get comfort from the strokes of the fellow cult members. I wish one of you guys would just once surprise me by making a halting attempt at being reasonable, decent, introspective, godly.
I guess they trained you well.
You might remember but what you remember might not be what actually happened. Studies have been done on what are called “Flashbulb memories” (your second type), memories of learning about something dramatic such as the Challenger disaster, 9/11, etc. In the Challenger disaster, very shortly after the event a professor asked his students to write down how they learned about it. The professor then followed up much later and again asked the students to write down how they learned about it. The responses were different
https://www.csmonitor.com/Science/2014/0128/Where-were-you-when-the-Challenger-exploded-Why-your-memory-might-be-wrong
The same happened with 9/11 memories. The same almost certainly happened with memories of the murder of MLK.
This doesn’t mean that Macarthur isn’t deliberately lying but it does leave open that he has a false memory (admittedly a pretty grandiose false memory).
Dee,
JM has reigned in PJ’s online behavior before. I don’t know how much JM knows but I am sure he’s aware it’s sometimes a problem. I also believe PJ has worried about JM’s perception of his online behavior. I suspect it may play a large role in him leaving Pyromaniacs.
You may be onto something with his attack dog / loose cannon role being tolerated because it has utility to JM.
It does seem clear that Evers and Perkins were in Mississippi when they learned of the crime. I have found no evidence that they learned the news together. MacArthur appears to have been working with Perkins in Mississippi at that time. So far I have not found news stories showing that Evers or Perkins immediately drove to Memphis.
There should be news stories, because civil rights leaders spent the ensuing days appealing to people in cities all around the US to refrain from violence. King died April 4, 1968. The stories I find dated April 5 all show Evers in Mississippi. Has anyone else found other contemporary accounts?
Right. I wonder if comprehension is a problem.
dee,
Subdued isn’t a term I’ve ever thought of when MacArthur comes to mind. And some of the mean stuff I’ve seen comes from those close to him and on his payroll. I think it’s more a matter of defending the party line at all costs for the sake of purity or truth or whatever righteous term they use for it on a given day.
As for him working it out with Evers, I have little hope of that. He’s got too much of an ego and too much pride. I don’t think I’ve ever seen him apologize, retract, or back down publicly in true humility, so I don’t see compromise or give-and-take happening.
I hope I’m wrong.
I’ve often wondered why they feel they’ve gotta’ claim that?
Does it somehow give them more legitimacy to a fundagelical crowd?
I’ve not heard of a mainline pastor falsely claiming to be a Navy Seal.
MacArthur is not a “respected [E]vangelical pastor.” I’ve known about him since the 1980s, and why? Because in the 1980s he was being sued by a bereaved family for counseling advice given out by his organization.
“Court Ruling That Freed Clergy From Liability for Advice Allowed to Stand” (from 1989)
http://articles.latimes.com/1989-04-04/news/mn-952_1_supreme-court
More recently, MacArthur and his organizations have been credibly accused of covering up rape at his “university.”
And, finally, his “university” is having its accreditation challenged for a number of reasons.
And these are all things outside his theological teachings, which have been criticized on other grounds. So no, your man JMac is not a respected [E]vangelical pastor. Nope.
I’ve watched the guy since the ’80s also. There’s the veneer of respectability that comes from having a large and prominent organization, but I agree with you, he has never impressed me as respectable in any way. It comes from the way that he deals with others, as has been documented repeatedly, the way he deals with beliefs that don’t match up with his viciously anti-charismatic, cold-hearted Calvinism, the way he runs his seminary (and I knew about the coldness and hatefulness of that place long before the latest accreditation issues came up, through the pastor I worked alongside who’d gone to TMS and served on the staff of GCC with Mac), and the absolute smugness of the man, which just hits you like a blast of hot air from the oven.
I cannot imagine what any Christian would see in a man who drips with such arrogance. Arrogance is anti-Christ, the 180 degree opposite of Christ.
In his blockbuster book, The Gospel According to Jesus, he harshly criticized other theologians, even though he had been among the Free Grace camp but a couple of years before! In that book and in subsequent discussions/books, he appeared to even question their salvation. His primary opponent, Charles Ryrie, was never anything but gracious. The problems at GCC and Master’s simply reflect the graceless character of MacArthur. Regardless what you think about his various positions including Calvinism, he is a poor role model.
Please don’t forget MacArthur’s dismal teachings about mental health, too.
He is one of those types who criticizes or shames Christians from seeing mental health professionals or using medication if they have depression, anxiety, or any problems like that.
I think I did a blog post about that on my Daisy blog where I mentioned him many months ago.
His teachings on mental health apparently led to, or contributed to, the suicide of one of his church members. I just looked it up.
I mention that information in this blog post, under the heading on the page
“DON’T AVOID SECULAR PSYCHOLOGY OR MEDICATIONS”
https://missdaisyflower.wordpress.com/2017/07/25/%E2%80%A2-for-most-jesus-and-the-gospels-are-not-the-answer-for-depression-suicide-and-other-mental-health-maladies-part-2/
While I, too, am suspect of John Macarthur’s version of events, as a physician I have a major issue with using this audio of Charles Evers as “proof” that McArthur is a liar. Having practiced in family medicine for over 30 years, listening to this recording it was clear to me Charles Evers has some degree of dementia. People with dementia can sound very good on the surface but it all falls apart when challenged with simple mental tasks like recalling the year. Even without such testing it was evidenced by the paucity of detail he supplied and the repetition of those few details. He also stated he didn’t remember John Macarthur at all. That isn’t likely to be the case were his memory intact especially given how intelligent
Evers was and how famous John MacArthur is. He covers this up by passing it off as knowing thousands of people. While that is no doubt true it is also a common sort of cover for impairment due to dementia. In addition, Evers doesn’t seem to follow the questions and requires redirecting several times.
Furthermore there are several ways I think we as listeners have been manipulated, intentionally or otherwise, by this *video.”
1. The recording was audio and not video. Had we been able to watch Evers’ face we would have been better able to discern whether he was really connecting.
2. The interviewer oriented Evers to the date by saying it to him. A good confirmatuon as to his mental status would have been to ask him the date. I suspect the year would have been off by a couple of decades.
3. The interviewer asked very leading questions, obviously trying very hard to get Evers to make specific statements.
4. The interviewer spoke quickly in complex sentences which would have been difficult for a 97 year old brain to follow. It was challenging enough for me to follow. I don’t think he did follow it based on his replies. But again we can’t watch his face to catch the blank look, if this were the case.
Dee, I’d encourage you not to use this to discredit John MacArthur. This interview with Evers is not reliable. You can do better.
Law Prof,
You’re quite good at ad hominem attacks yourself and it would be nice if occasionally they were called out.
Pingback: Wednesday Connect | Thinking Out Loud
He can’t be in ignorance of their actions, since they have been at it for literally decades. Judging from Macarthur’s statements on the record about Catholics, progressives, charismatics, etc, he doesn’t disagree with the pyros’ disdain in principle. So, that implies that they are acting with at least his tacit approval.
dee,
Bahaha. This is how you interpreted his exit? You’re exactly the same narcissist Brees you whine about.
Turk was as obnoxious and overinflated as they come as the rest of his blogomaniacs were but you taking credit for his exit? Bahaha.
Maybe you were the straw but that’s all. No one’s missing him, though.
Even without the Evers interview there is the problem of MacArthur’s version being inconsistent with the police reports. It appears there is no way he could have been walking through the crime scene as he claims. Perhaps he walked through it a number of days or weeks later, but certainly not that night.
___
“Fifty Years Beyond Comprehension, Perhaps?”
hmmm…
Surfing the Calvinesta apocalypse?
intro:
https://cdn.gty.org/sermons/High/81-35.mp3?x-source=website&x-type=download
Hello,
For over fifty years John MacArthur has been infected with Augustinian Gnosticism formally known as Calvinism, Reformed Theology, TULIP, or the Doctrines of Grace. His books, sermons, and media programs are sadly saturated with it.
“His sermons are made available from ‘Grace to You’. Founded in 1969, ‘Grace to You’ is the 510c3 non-profit organization ‘responsible’ for developing, producing, and distributing John MacArthur’s books, audio resources, and the “Grace to You” radio and television programs…”
Grace Church ™ apparently turned their ‘lights’ out long, long ago.
This man made religious theological system presents a highly distorted view of the character, sovereignty, disposition of God Himself; and the eternal disposition of individuals He has wonderfully made.
*Please take notice : He is not as He (God) is made to appear by this faulty belief system.
Distortion of the assurance of salvation is one of this system’s most lethal hallmarks.
The following verses can begin to help to overcome this dire expansive infection:
Assurance(s) of Salvation:
John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 5:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
1 John 5:13: These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Be careful of the 501c3 religious ‘Voices’ you listen to, and heed.
Beware!
God Almighty is offering you, where ever you may be in life -salvation and eternal life through His precious Son, Jesus. —>Please avail yourself of this wonderful opportunity.
You’ll be glad you did!
Your very soul is important; eternity rests upon what you do with…
Jesus’ words are very powerful and have great redeeming force…
(Please sēē your bible for super duper ‘God Saving Force’ details) 🙂
and sêê 4 miles…
ATB
Sòpy
—
Exit music:
Chelsea Davis : “I can see for Miles” (an ‘Who’ cover…)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jRlRw4xueIA
;~)
– –
Bridget,
My roommate in college was the son of a rural doctor in Michigan. He would on occasion get a phone call from his father’s phone while the doctor was driving. The year was 1968. I was a form of radio telephone.
“It was a form” not “I”.
Harvest is a Disgrace,
MacArthur has not been above reproach in private. If there haven’t been any public scandals for 5 decades, it simply means that there are people who are very good at keeping secrets. TMU is under probation for a reason, and what has been reported is only the tip of the iceberg.
I used to be a staunch supporter of John MacArthur and respected him very much. Then I learned the truth and now I believe the people who have begun to share their stories. Maybe one day the whole truth will come to light.
Yep, you’re probably right. But tell me where I’m missing the mark in my position on MacArthur—or Shane.
I was young and now am old. I’m old enough to remember those!
” … mobile radio-based phone systems … by 1964 there were 1.5 million mobile phone users in the United States …”
https://weburbanist.com/2012/09/18/remember-millions-of-mobile-phones-in-the-1960s-you-should/
Really?
MacArthur is oh so famous?
He wasn’t in 1968, and likely still isn’t in many circles.
Team MacArthur’s Cavalry has arrived.
Sarah, unless you are a medical professional who has personally examined Evers, you have no business discussing his *dementia.* Also, your terminology is dated which indicates you are not even minimally educated on the matter.
Frankly, I’m not using Evers interview to discredit MacArthur. MacArthur has done that for himself as he has handled the many incidents regarding his schools, sexual abuse in those entities ands accreditation.
You seem to stuck in a bubble. I attend an excellent church-conservative, etc. I doubt anyone in my church has ever heard of the “famous” John MacArthur. However, I bet a few would know who Evers is.
Has I wanted to *discredit* MacArthur (which I do not,) I could have. released much of this information earlier. I decided not to do so. I simply believe that Evers deserves a hearing.
I have an idea, why don’t you tell Team MacArthur to have their famous patron do what the Bible says and go and speak with his old friend. MacArthur was part of his community and could not even get served in restaurants because he was so closely affiliated.
As for me doing better, I would suggest that you could have done way better in your comment. It is obvious you have arrived *for such a time as this.*
Missy M,
It is obvious that you are ill educated on the matter. Team MacArthur needs to do a better job educating their paparazzi.
Law Prof,
You’re missing facts. Most of what you’ve said is assumption or a kind of deduction. I was the one who first mentioned the Perkins quote and I also suggested that if the interviewer was identified correctly as someone with “an agenda” it might be wise to tread cautiously. By and large that hasn’t happened. Not responsible journalism or comment in my opinion.
Bring back Perry Mason or Diane Lockhart or Robert Boseman. At least then the readers would realise it’s fiction.
Civil Rights Hero? Is that a woke follow-up from Activision? Clearly JoMac holds the high score.
There are many pastors and leaders out there who believe that macArthur is a law and order Christian. hde has successfully integrated that into his teachings. It is no wonder that a number of his ardent followers takes what he says as *gospel.*
His paradigm works for those who need a checklist. Against Catholicism…check. Against sharismatics….check. Against these theologians are bad because they disagree with me…check.Against Social gospel unless it is MacArthur palling with the big boys in the civil rights movement…check.
The list grows quite long. However, it is a list that is relatively easy to keep and that is attractive to those followers who need a list as opposed to digging deeper into the problems we all have with our sin nature.
The Pharisees held sway for a long time because they, too, had a checklist. Don’t spit on the ground on thee Sabbath because a plant might grow…check. I saw the Shabbat elevators in the hotels in Israel. They stop at every floor and no buttons need to be pressed….check….
The way of Jesus is actually both freeing and harder than the checklists. It causes us to look into our own souls and understand the sin in our hearts.One needs only look at the comments here of Team MacArthur to see their version of a gospel. They have the macArthur checklist. So, because they know what he is against, they, too are against *that* whatever that is. They have a hard time coping with the fact that MacArthur is as sinful as….me. (Seizures ensue.)
There is no easy checklist for Jesus’ followers. Sand that, for many, is intimidating. They need that checklist in order to believe that they really are *with the program.* That is why the attacks must ensue. I fully expected it. Sadly they are going after some other people who are not used to Team MacArthur.
Well, I did drink Death Wish coffee (true)this AM so I am really woke!!!!
This comment is very threatening to Team MacArthur. They read the books, do the studies, make pilgrimages to his church, etc. They have to since their entire conceptualization of the gospel is based on everything that he says.
I am going to try an experiment. I’m going to ask people in my life if they know John MacArthur. That includes Christians and nonChristian alike. I’m going to keep track of the answers and I will be truthful although I doubt they’ll believe it.
I intend to ask people of al stripes. I bet the’ll know who Billy Graham is. I’m adding that to my question.
dee,
PS I really would be curious to learn if they think MacArthur is less sinful than I am.
Law Prof,
And the Corporate Findlaw website spells it out but you already know that.
__
“WhinIng ‘Brees’ (1) narcissist” ?
hmmm…
Add it to the list, Dee.
hahahahaha
“yet every discernment blog breeds not individuals alike…” -Sòpwith
;~)
—
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7dW2fCliycI
– –
(1) : to produce (offspring) by hatching or gestation
– = –
Haha! You are beyond woke – you have entered a higher level of consciousness!
I have not tried it yet, but given that my daily consumption of coffee increases weekly (I drink Larry’s Coffee and quite possibly fund the operation one day a month), I may well order some before too long.
Law Prof,
Frankly, all of us, including myself, can get a little *ad hominem* at times. I am not into correcting the style of people. I like to question their ideas/thoughts. I once saw a blog get so bogged down in commenting style that no one commented there.
There is only one of me. I can’t even keep uo with spelling and autocorrect errors. I have little time for monitoring style. Wish I could. This blog is not for the faint of heart.
Burwell,
It works on those days I’m just piddling along.
If you want to see who is more or less sinful, consider Luke 18:10-14 and decide which part of the Temple you’re standing in and consider your posture and words.
So, reading the thread backwards, I came to this and simply cracked up laughing . . . couldn’t help myself.
What do I mean by law/rule oriented. Lets look at the issue of tithes.
We all agree that we should give to the church if we are members and support their mission.
Law/Rules: Talk about giving to the church. Give 10% of your gross income to the local church. Then give over and above to missionaries, parachurcn, etc. the Bible sez so. Also, give to the Lottie Moon offering.
Grace: Teach about the concept of giving in the Scripture and then say what my pastor said. “I’m not going to tell you how much to give. I’ll leave that between God and you.”
Lowlandseer,
I love the congregational confession that is part of our weekly service. There are times when I’m really, really hard on myself and, in spite of knowing Scripture, I question if God really forgives me for *this and that.*
So, we confess in our church. Then our pastor declares to us that our sins are forgiven. We then move into the communion, but first *pass the peace* to one another.
There is a lightness n my heart as I approach communion that lasts for quite awhile. Peace is a good word.
Lordship Salvation – “if Jesus isn’t Lord of all, then He is not Lord at all” – is a tough taskmaster. For JM to admit wrong doing at this point would be to admit that the Lordship Salvation that he has proclaimed has not been personally applied.
dee,
With such lightness of foot and elegant sidesteps, you should be on Dancing with the Stars! 🙂
“Nobody goes there anymore. It’s too crowded.”
—(falsely attributed to) Yogi Berra
🙂
You mean the Truth Squad Sock Puppets?
Happens every time this (or some other watchblog) puts a ManaGAWD under scrutiny. Suddenly the sock puppet Defenders of Mine Anointed come out of the woodwork. In politics, this is called a “Truth Squad”, a roving Propaganda Ministry unleashing on all Disloyals.
I’ve been on a Yahoogroup that got killed that way.
You guys all know that is Brannon Howse’s altered voice interviewing Evers don’t you? Are you sure you guys want to lend credibility to Howse?
I assume Death Wish is the Carolina Reaper of coffees?
Like the legendary homebrew batch with a bottle of NoDoz tipped into the boil?
Or the one made with Energy Drink or Jolt Cola instead of water?
“Get Woke, Go Broke.’
Everything without Ever’s video, there if still enough problems with MacArthur’s story to render it implausible. Particularly the part where MacArthur problems he stood in the hotel room hours after the shooting. The police report makes that highly unbelievable.
But even without any inconsistencies, the fact that MacArthur tells this story like he’s a civil rights hero is unsettling and distasteful at the least.
Team MacArthur … Team MacDonald … Team Mahaney … Team Mohler, etc. etc. I just wish the church would rally behind Team Jesus again!
Ishy,
My phone auto-correct seems to be getting the best of me today!
Perhaps you should just say Teacher of the Law.
Regarding Bob Jones, if there is a known connection, then he might be considered another Fundamentalist. Another case of Fundamentslism escaping Southern sources to replant elsewhere.
Lordship Salvation is just re-branded early Fundamentalism. And re-branded Roman Era Super Apostles.
In the next life, will JM gather followers around him and point out the faults in people like myself?
And…now there is a push for John MacArthur’s ally Tom Ascol to challenge JD Greear for the Southern Baptist presidency at this year’s Convention!
Non-Calvinists told to put aside ‘minor divisions’ and unite behind Founders Ministries’ Tom Ascol, to save the SBC from progressivism:
http://capstonereport.com/2019/02/05/sbc-birmingham-2019-southern-baptists-should-nominate-tom-ascol-for-sbc-president/32252/
“Southern Baptists were warned about J.D. Greear’s progressivism…Unfortunately, not enough conservatives bothered to attend the convention meeting to stand against it.”
“The only check to progressivism is a strong, orthodox leader…Dr. Ascol is that man. His presentation at the recent conference on Social Justice & the Gospel was…stirring…His dynamic, thoughtful lecture was heard by over 1,700 conference session attendees and watched by countless more on the Internet. He is a leader with a voice heard within not only the Southern Baptist Convention, but all of evangelicalism.”
“Dr. Ascol is a man of integrity. As such, I believe he would lead not as a Calvinist, but a Southern Baptist committed to unifying and representing all our theological traditions. The most important job of the president in many ways is the appointment of trustees. I feel confdident that Dr. Ascol would appoint conservative Southern Baptists of all traditions”
I don’t think you understand what I’m saying here. I wouldn’t care if it was John Piper, Donald Trump or Hilary Clinton interviewing him. This is NOT about the interviewer and making it about him could be perceived as deflecting Evers’ expressed concern.
This is about Charles Evers. This wonderful man said that MacArthur lied. The ball is now in MacArthur’s court. He should go to him and talk it out. In fact, I will be watching his response. If he goes to him and works it out then I shall report on it. What a witness that would be!
Jerome,
ROFL. JD Greear is a committed Calvinist who believes in strong authority and heavy complementarianism. I guess it’s antis-ocial gospel crowd rearing their heads. I’ve often said that these Calvinists will end up eating each other.They all have their pet Bible verses to prove the weak faith of the other. They certainly are giving us much to watch. Thank you for this info.
The conference being referred to is ‘Sovereign Nations’ held a few weeks ago which featured Ascol, MacArthur’s lieutenent Phil Johnson, James White of Alpha Omega Ministries, etc. (the guys behind the Statement on Social Justice and the Gospel from last year):
https://events.sovereignnations.com/g3precon19/#Speakers
OJ-first interview in. My 90 year old mother who is not a Christian and doesn’t lie to talk about faith issues.
She knows who Billy Graham is and thought he was a good man.
She doesn’t know who John MacArthur is. She does know about General Douglas MacArthur.
Jerome,
oooooo This is getting interesting.
Others that were there have VALIDATED that John MacArthur WAS there – and that he was with them and doing exactly what he has said he was. Dr. MacArthur has nothing to gain by inventing this story. John Perkins, in his own book testified to MacArthur being there – and this well pre-dates all this controversy.
After reading up on this topic, I may need to walk back my thoughts on the crime scene.
Former Atlanta mayor Andrew Young says he was at the hotel when MLK was shot, adding, “we were all committed. One of the movement’s philosophies was that if somebody was struck down doing good, whatever you were doing you had to stop it and continue his works. So as soon as we came back from the hospital, we met back in his room and decided that we would have to carry on.”
After they came back from the hospital they went into MLK’s room?
I also find interesting that MLK was initially downstairs, but the police wanted him moved upstairs. Once shot, Young says the police came toward them, rather than toward the shooter. Can’t avoid the thought – was it a better shot with the target upstairs?
https://abcnews.go.com/beta-story-container/US/86-andrew-young-recalls-horror-witnessing-moment-martin/story?id=54094604
There is only room for One on the Iron Throne of New Geneva.
What do Predators eat after they’ve killed off all the prey?
dee,
Balance please. If the interviewer is leading, the interviewee follows the steps, to continue the dance theme. So it is about the interviewer as well.
Jerome:
I am not a straight ticket voter for any pastor, ministry etc. I tend to agree with some people on some issues, and other people on other issues.
I have watched a lot of the presentations at the TGC and ERLC MLK50 Conference from last year. And I watched Platt at T4G preach about racism.
Much of what was said was nothing but self-righteous guilt, and trying to push that on other Christians.
A week or so ago, I watched some of the sermons from the Sovereign Nations conference. I had never heard any of those guys speak, and I had misgivings about some of them from what I had read they have said in other contexts.
But the sermons at the Sovereign Nations conference were much more thoughtful and solid from both a logical and biblical context.
I don’t think the SBC will feature a Tom Ascol candidacy. Greear is running for his second year, which is a complimentary year, and usually there is no opponent.
The Birmingham convention will be interesting. Greear has appointed the Resolutions Committee, and it is stacked with people from Southeastern Seminary. 3 are currently connected. 1 just got his PhD there. 1 is from Massachusetts, but was at Southeastern a year or so ago.
Of all the seminaries, Southeastern is the most rabid when it comes to trying to enforce some orthodoxy on race, racial reconciliation, which is a new SBC project to try and force churches to get people from different ethnicities into churches – which is kind of racist.
With the convention in Birmingham, one can be assured that Platt, Russell Moore, Beth Moore, Danny Aiken etc., will all be trying to break down the doors of the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church, the Birmingham Jail, the Civil Rights Museum etc. Every resolution will address racism or something related to it.
Everyone I know opposes racism. But at some point, the efforts appear to be more about the people opposing racism than they are about really improving the world.
“After they came back from the hospital they went into MLK’s room?”
According to the OP this wouldn’t have been possible.
“However, Rogers discovered reports that the area was on a 3 day lockdown. Also, the area was cordoned off within 10 minutes of the shooting.”
Unless, of course, parts of the OP are wrong.
I a way this is sorta cool. The whole point of the sixties was there’s something happening here. What it is ain’t exactly clear.
Maybe God is just working a little mystery into the act.
….In a way…
Oh dear, how will I ever resist the temptation to cheer? Lord help me!
Agreed. Just another platform for the YRR to take some selfies from. They will preach about how awful the organized church has been in reaching across racial lines, but how great the new reformation is at racial reconciliation. They will appear to be on the high road, while still walking the low road of aberrant theology. False humility … it’s just show and tell, mostly show.
Not if they only end up eating each other when there are no more of The Other (like you and me) left.
“If I were Team MacArthur, I would be careful not to throw him under the bus.” (Dee)
Indeed. On a scale of 1 to 10, Charles Evers is stitched higher than John MacArthur in the fabric called America. If he has enough mental faculty to respond to questions in an interview of any sort, he no doubt recalls exactly where he was and who he was with when he received news that his brother Medgar was murdered by the KKK … where he was and who he was with when President Kennedy was assassinated … where he was and who he was with when the tragedy of 911 unfolded … where he was and who he was with when Dr. King was killed. Some roads traveled might get confused in an old man’s mind as he reflects back on his long journey, but he can’t forget milestones.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_O7aM0J3CI
Lowlandseer,
I do know that he was asked specifically about the presence of MacArthur and he said *No.* That is simple. yes or no. If we are talking about a complex exchange, reviewing vast amounts of debatable history, etc. then the leading thing comes into play. This was specific, IMNHO.
If I heard that said about me and I knew it was not true, given my history of claiming to be part of Evers’ community, I would contact him forthwith. Wouldn’t you?
Any reasonable person would, anyone concerned that the story they’ve been telling (which should’ve been seared into their memory, under the circumstances) was somehow off, somehow in error, and interested in setting the record straight would, anyone interested in getting at the ultimate truth because they know that the truth would set them free, that whispers and lies in the inner rooms would one day be shouted from the rooftops would. Anyone who really believed Jesus meant what he said would want to set the record straight—or bet set straight. But therein lies the rub.
That explains how MacArthur is rolling in the dough.
I frankly don’t care if an interviewer has a bias, I assume bias. Just as I know that you’re biased strongly in favor of Calvinists and have run with people whom I consider given over to detestable systems, such as Terry Virgo. We all have biases, the question is: “What is the truth?” And you know darned well, if you can have a bit of introspection, that MacArthur’s account sounds as shady as heck, is unlikely in the extreme, is now being refuted by a key eyewitness (Evers), flies in the face of the facts (his talk about primitive forensics and his fantasy that he walked by police officers and a sealed off crime scene of a major national figure and essentially stood in MLK’s blood and is the product of one who does not exactly have a stellar reputation for dealing with people with decency.
I’d say the burden is squarely on your shoulders.
__
Of possible interest:
“Martin Luther & The Dangers Of Sacralism” | Dr. James R. White | Sovereign Nation s Conference 2017
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d2qJl1wWlKc&t=0s&list=PLZJe-MWy0cYffxeXAhgXMr8qPT_d_dLml&index=5#dialog
;~)
– –
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Too hilarious (the you tube vid).
We are indeed surrounded by idiots.
I’ll wager they’re the same ones who climb the barriers at Yosemite (for selfies) and plummet down sheer granite faces.
Haven’t heard that name pop up for a while, but now twice in 24 hours, as it was mentioned on Leah Remini’s show last night. The discussion concerned the loss of tax-exempt status for Bob Jones University in the early 80s when the apparent policy of only admitting white students was adjudged to be incompatible with IRS requirements of lawful operation related to tax-exempt status.
I don’t know if MacArthur has something to gain by this and neither do you. We cannot see inside a man and fully understand what motivates him. We are a complex people. I’m not sure why I do some things that I do and I think that all people experience this.
This quote by a former pastor is seared in my mind: “Even on my best days, my motives are mixed.” That’s why I like asking God forgiveness for sins known and unknown. All of us, at one point or another, carry the unknown with us.
Michael, we are a complex people. For some, being in an historical event makes them feel important or feellike an important part of history.
Actually your comment made me think about something. You called him *Dr MacArthur.* For some reason I cannot find from which institution that he received an earned doctorate. All I can find listed is honorary doctorates. I checked on his website and didn’t see anything. This what Wikipedia says.
“MacArthur also received honorary doctorates from Talbot Theological Seminary (Doctor of Divinity, 1977) and from Grace Graduate School (1976).[17]
Hey all
Does anyone know from which institution macArthur received his earned doctorate? Lots of people call him *Doctor* but I can’t find anything except honorary degrees. I must be missing something and could use some assist.
The AP story in the Chicago Tribune says that Charles Evers was threatened by phone, at the NAACP offices in Jackson MS the evening of MLK’s death. According to Mapquest, the distance from Jackson MS to Memphis TN is 209 miles (3+ hrs on today’s roads).
Where is “there”? Jackson or Memphis? It looks like there is very high probability he was in Jackson when he learned about the shooting. What are the sources validating his presense in Memphis that night.
Dr. King died on the motel balcony. It is plausible that the police allowed the people he had been with to go back into his room afterward.
On the TMS site it does not make a distinction between earned and honorary degrees: https://www.tms.edu/bio/johnmacarthur/
Ken F (aka Tweed),
We need to figure this out because so many people call him Dr MacArthur. he should not be called *Dr* unless he has an earned degree. I keep thinking these folks must know something, right?
Friend,
before everyone gets going on these bits of *proof* I want to reiterate something. This is not about MacArthur. This is about Evers. Evers said MacArthur lied and said he should stop doing so. MacArthur needs to go to Evers and do the right thing-be reconciled. Maybe they can work this out between the two of them over coffee and donuts.
dee,
Proving a negative is difficult, but in his preface to “Biblical Doctrine”, he lists DD and LittD, accounting for the 2 honorary degrees. I’m sure if had an earned ThD or PhD, I would expect it to be listed as well.
Tell the pugs that drstevej earned his degree
dee,
Warren Throckmorton has weighed in on this:
https://www.wthrockmorton.com/2018/10/20/in-2020-john-macarthur-will-become-chancellor-of-the-masters-university/
These two sites indicated his doctorates are honorary.
https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/should-pastors-with-honorary-degrees-call-themselves-doctor.66947/
https://www.wthrockmorton.com/2018/10/20/in-2020-john-macarthur-will-become-chancellor-of-the-masters-university/
It looks like he does not use the title Dr but his followers do.
Maybe you get the title ‘Dr.’ if you have a study bible named after you 😉
Account of MacArthur starting, then dropping out of a doctoral program:
https://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/80-33/John-MacArthurs-Life-Testimony
Seems MacArthur topped out earning a master’s degree from Talbot seminary.
But Phil Johnson who edits his books for him has a bachelor’s degree from a Bible institute.
Glad to learn of the academic pursuits of Team MacArthur.
If this is the passage you mean, I read it as describing the time frame but not specifically the night of April 4:
“There were young men who brought teams of young folks to help us, like John MacArthur Jr.; they became involved in the struggle, too. In fact, John was with me in Mississippi in 1968 when Martin Luther King Jr. was kil1ed. I witnessed how his life was challenged as he understood racism and bigotry anew, as it was inflicted on him, a former Bob Jones University student.”
Regardless of where the men were that awful night, this is an amazing vignette. Thank you for the research.
dee,
Dee
Multiple witnesses have testified more than once that MacArthur was there, Perkins directly so in his book. MacArthur doesn’t need to do anything, other witnesses present are on record confirming this claim however, the reporter of this story and you, need to do a hell of a lot more work before your claim even carries the weight of a 3rd grader.
P.S.I’m not a MacArthur fan but I am a fan of honest and thorough research and here, you’ve made yourself a crap sandwich and are munching away under the delusion it is steak.
Understood, thanks.
Missy M,
There is a reason I put you in permanent moderation in the past. Also, you need to be truthful.
Anytime someone has a grudge against us, we are called to work it out. I hope MacArthur will do this.
Where is “there”? The “multiple witnesses” appear to claim he was in MS that night. I have not seen any corroboration that he was in Memphis the night of the shooting. The question is not whether he was with any of the people mentioned that night. The queation is whether be actually walked through the crime scene that night. Is there any evidence for that?
During a recent interview on Moody radio “Chris Fabry Live”, in response to a soft question about his time down south in the sixties, MacArthur make is clear that he wasn’t part of the social justice crowd and never mentions Evers or MLK. It’s about 19 minutes in
https://www.moodyradio.org/radioplayer.aspx?episode=245713
Off this topic but important news today.
https://www.wspa.com/news/minister-accused-of-having-sex-impregnating-minor-in-spartanburg-co/1760019372
Dee
Sure I know you have the power of moderation and exercise it at your discretion. Tell me something new.
I, however, will tell you something new and that is there are photographs attesting to the fact that the claim that the location was immediately cordoned off by law enforcement, in which only law enforcement had access, is simply not true and secondly, the photographer who took the pictures attests in his own words that he stood on the commode in the very same room as James Earl Ray to take the pictures and one of the pictures includes an image of a large volume of blood on the balcony – and by the way in those pictures there is not a single law enforcement officer in sight so did the civil rights people just magically show up before law enforcement and the photographer as well and all of them had time to take these photographs? Give me a break. Let me know when you want a link to the pictures
You don’t think school-aged children can be trusted know the truth and tell the truth? I would hate to be a child in your family.
John MacArthur sure has convinced many people to worship him instead of Jesus Christ.
Missy M,
I think Missy M was around here before, when the conversation concerns MacArthur.
During the summers of 1968 and 1969 I attended the junior high summer camp at Hume Lake. One of those years, I think 1969, MacArthur was the main speaker for the week. That was the first I had ever heard of him. My memory is completely blank as to whether or not I actually spoke to the man, and the only thing I remember from his various messages was that “Abba” can be translated “Daddy.” I had never heard that before.
Fast forward several MacArthur-free decades. I noticed that a friend had a MacArthur book on her shelf, and I wondered if it was the same guy. I looked at the author picture in the book, and was pretty sure that it was indeed the same guy.
About 7 years ago a new neighbor moved into our apartment complex. We became acquainted, and I learned very quickly that he was a huge MacArthur fan, owning several of his books (including a study Bible), listened to lots of his sermons on line, and was even a member of the tape club back when cassettes were the hottest technology.
It has only been in the last few years, through reading this and other blogs, that I have come to realize that, shall we say, there are worms in the MacArthur apple.
So yes, I had heard of him, but only a few times for the better part of 50 years. Apparently the folks at the various churches I have attended over the years are not counted among his blind followers and acolytes (thank heaven). One very trusted source said he believes MacArthur has done good work over the decades but in certain well-known instances, he has “worn the robes of the Pharisee.”
For whatever my 2 cents might be worth.
You are quite the one to speak of *&^% sandwiches. You are a prime and shining example of projection, the way you act.
Dee has done her research and been circumspect about this: she sat on this for a while until it was corroborated. Look, no one here is contending that he was not sitting in Mississippi that day. That’s not the debate. The question is whether he took a relatively uninteresting fact: “I was sitting with a relatively average guy in the civil rights movement when I found out about MLK’s death”, which would cause people to say “Hmm, interesting”, then think nothing of it.
Instead, the contention is he took that ho-hum fact and spun it out into a dramatic tale that put HIM at the center of the big historical event, put HIM there with the big shot in the civil rights movement, Charles Evers, made HIM the one who needed protection (from all those black people who wanted equal rights, I suppose), made HIM the one who evidently got to walk right past the police officers who had sealed off the area within minutes and tramp around in the bathroom and climb on top of the toilet from whence (there’s no way possible) James Earl Ray shot Dr. King, made HIM the anointed one who got to walk right past the officers and trot up the steps and hang out on the balcony and take a good close look at MLK’s blood (I suppose the bewildered officers just figured, “What the heck, he’s ruining a crime scene, but he’s going to be a marginally important figure in reformed theology a couple decades from now, let’s leave the white kid hanging around with those civil rights leaders alone”).
Of course, there’s the inconvenient fact that Evers is calling him a liar. So are you calling Evers a liar, Missy? Just curious.
Of course he has something to gain by inventing this story. Are you kidding? It makes him sound very important. He was right there on the balcony, he was with Evers, brother of Medgar Evers, he was right there at the center of history being made. Are you kidding me? It’s astonishing that you’d say that. Count me nonplussed, I cannot believe you could type that with a straight face. Simply amazed at your cynicism or naiveté, not sure which it is.
New information:
I’ve been informed that Paige did contact MacArthur for a comment.He did not respond.
Guest,
Now now, Dee demands that people tell the truth or she put you in moderation. and she claims to be offended by lies and you and I and she knows John MacArthur has never even implied that anyone worship him we all know that’s a lie even though we might not agree with him. Wait ’til you hear from her about this lie. Mmmmm…..mmmmm…lies upset her.
Wait, she’ll probably just ignore this inconvenient task and say I’ve done it for her.
Missy M,
MacArthur is blessed have such a thoughtful supporter.
Missy M,
dee,
So Evers says he’s lying, but MacArthur doesn’t respond.
You can know someone by their enemies, so the saying goes. With celeb leaders, same obviously goes for their friends and supporters. It’s such a cliche: The leader’s weakness is exposed, and out come the cult followers, acting nothing at all like Jesus—and acting exactly like the leader.
I swear if I ever became anything well-known in christendom, if there was ever a question about my character, I’d hope any supporter I had would say “Well, if the guy’s lying or embellishing to make himself look more important than he is (which is, of course, just plain old lying), then he needs a good smack down and needs to shut up for a while and humble himself.”
Loyalty, especially the blind kind, is not a virtue, it’s not something Jesus told us to pursue. He told us to pursue the truth and He admonished us that whispers in inner rooms would be shouted from rooftops. Loyalty is treasured in the mafia and among corrupt cops—it’s sure not a Fruit of the Spirit.
Bridget,
Correct.
I’ve been blogging for 10 years come March. I have an observation. Team MacArthur is one of the meanest, ugliest groups of people with whom I’ve ever interacted here. I wonder what Bible they read. Do they read they stories about turning the other cheek or going to your brother who has a grudge against you?
One of my coworkers knows who John MacArthur is. We were having a meeting with an icebreaker and he mentioned that he read books by Johnny Mac and R.C. Sproul. I’m pretty sure nobody else on my team knew who they were. In fact, I asked another team member privately, “Should I tell him I’m picketing where John MacArthur is preaching [Together for the Gospel]?” We agreed that probably wouldn’t be good for group cohesion, so the first coworker doesn’t know about this particular extracurricular activity of mine.
James White has moved his membership from a reformed Baptist church in Phoenix to a “hip” reformed Baptist church now meeting afternoons here in a conservative Baptist church here in Mesa (very, very, very close to chez Holmes, in fact). He’s a “scholar in residence.” I’d remind everyone that “Dr.” White still has a doctorate from a diploma-mill seminary. (He’s supposedly working on a legit Ph.D, but last I checked, that hasn’t happened yet.)
Missy M,
Missy- my old notes next to your name include *mean* and * insulting of victims.* You’ve done this before and you always show up in this context. So, your comments will be carefully vetted to see if you should be allowed to comment in this situation.
I believe that MacArthur needs to speak to his old BFF, Evers, and do what the Bible says we are to do. But, maybe that doesn’t apply to Team MacArthur.
LOLOLOLOLOL. Team building at its finest!
“By their fruit you will recognize them – that is, by their contrived doctrine and self-focus. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the unhealthy tree bears bad fruit.” (Matthew 7:16-17 AMP)
Missy M,
I would like a link to the pictures – especially the one with the view from the toilet.
Sure he does. That “Statement on Social Justice” put out by MacArthur and his buddies is proof enough that MacArthur needs to be able to assert, “why yes, I was with MLK.” That way he can justify telling people of color why their demands for racial justice are wrong and not “gospel,” and more than that, the people of color just basically need to sit down and defer to the wisdom of John MacArthur and his buddies.
This is my own personal opinion and does not reflect on anyone else.
I thought of making a witty remark, but the thing is, we all knew it was a joke. If we hadn’t, and you had actually been lying to us all this time, what would be our normal reaction? We would never trust anything you say again. And that’s what people ought to do when someone deceives them. Repeatedly. God can decide if he wants to give them grace – I choose to keep my distance. And not attend their Religious Theater.
Missy M,
MacArthur harms people who have mental health issues.
He believes in some bogus stuff – he apparently feels that all anyone with depression, anxiety, or other such problems needs is to believe in Jesus, have faith, and/or read the Bible. That right there is enough for me to have a problem with that.
That, plus he usually comes across as being pretty arrogant.
Even if you were right about this MLK event in regards to J-Mac, it still doesn’t make him an okay dude in my view. He has other problems.
That was my thought, too.
The whole reason why J-Mac would say he was good buddies with leaders of the Civil Rights movement was to squelch any blow back he got from his anti-Social Justice statement he issued several months ago.
Nevermind, Missy. I saw the pictures and article you are referring to. If you read carefully, you will note the photog was in a building directly across from the Lorraine, and not in the building James Earl Ray shot from. And we still have no verification that MacArthur was on scene that night or the next day.
Jerome,
He got an honorary doctorate from Talbot in 1977 and one from Grace Graduate School the year before.
The earliest google reference I saw to that story was 2003 and another in 2009. It’s not a new story.
I’ll tell you something that’s not new, Chrissy. There is no way possible that anyone could’ve shot James Earl Ray or anyone outside from that toilet. And when J Mac says he stood on the toilet to see the place where Ray stood, it sounds very much like what it almost certainly is: a lie concocted by someone who knows a little something because they read it somewhere and is now trying to make something up. I’ll tell you something else that isn’t new. There’s also the inconvenient fact that Evers says he doesn’t know what J Mac is talking about and is saying that he should stop lying. And of course, there have been serious, persistent questions about J Mac’s integrity going way back. The latest debacle about the abusiveness and self-dealing at his seminary raised by the accrediting body is just a continuation of a theme that has gone on for decades.
There’s also a serious question about your integrity and truthfulness here, if you haven’t noticed. Just sayin.
Two comments not allowed. Team MacArthur is on a roll.
Missy is now banned-not only for this post but permanently. Her comments behind the scene are not only wrong but are also despicable. I wonder if she is Frank Turk or married to him.
dee,
In fact the more I look into this, I have a feeling it is Frank Turk. In my opinion, having encountered his unChristianlike wrath, few people who claim to be Christians are as mean and disgusting as he is.
In case it is him, let me update everyone. Chantry is still in prison awaiting another trial after being convicted on some charges. Thankfully, sometimes this is justice in this world even though men in the church attempt to thwart it.
dee,
I think Frank must enjoy posing as a *girl.*
Sounds like it comes in the same basic spirit as Westboro Baptist, eh? Were I John Mac, I’d hate to have supporters like that. You know them by their fruits. When a person comes in a hateful, ugly, unchristian spirit, I tend to assume they’re not Christians. I assume they’re the ones we were told about long ago, the whitewashed tombs, the ones who have the form of godliness, but deny the power of it. If there’s anything that’s a clear denial of the power of God, having an abusive, spiteful attitude, showing none of the Fruits of the Spirit, has to be towards the top of the list. And if there’s anything that seems to be utterly evil and diabolical (as opposed to merely misled or confused), it’s covering that spite and hatred up with an outer facade of purity and sweetness. In my opinion, that’s what you’ve got with the MacArthur crowd. Certainly not everyone, but the true believers, whom I’m sure are all sweetness and cleanness when they converse at church, sure do seem to be a different animal indeed behind the anonymity of a forum and a non de plume.
It’s not that I think I have the right to judge someone all-in-all, because there’s no way I can possibly know what they’ve gone through in their lives or what sort of constitution God made them with. There’s no way anyone can know if we’d have done better with their nature and nurture. That’s God’s judgment and His alone. But when it comes to saying “I think that’s a brother or sister with whom I can fellowship” or “I think that’s a fake Christian…or a young, immature, confused Christian carried away by a really bad environment…or perhaps even a person given over to evil because their fruits are simply awful”, I do think Christians not only can do that, but should do that. Otherwise, the disciples might just as well have gone and had fellowship with the Pharisees, or the superapostles, or the guy having relations with his step-mom.
Sam,
“Introduced” and “available for common use” are two very different things my friend. The intenret was “invented” in the 1960s too. But I don’t think you’d hear anyone saying they went online in 1968 to look up when the first cell phone was invented!
I think you get my point. Sure, they may have been invented in 1946 – but that doesn’t mean anyone was able to use them in 1946. But 1968 if you could fit an 80 pound box in your car and pay thousands of dollars a month for service – if you could get service – then maybe he had a car phone. But come on. These people were well known but they weren’t Elvis rich.
I realize the improprieties with payments towed his son in law Kory Welch has been discussed before . I didn’t realize that over the years it amounts to 7 million dollars. No wonder their accreditation was at risk. This article is more detailed .
JMac is not above reproach.
https://www.hometownstation.com/santa-clarita-latest-news/masters-university-president-pays-son-in-law-millions-of-dollars-through-nonprofits-251199
A Mr Bob Johnson was exposing this very story months ago when MacArthur began lying at John MacArthur cult watch I believe. I had even did some research and found MacArthurs statements contradicted the crime scene even finding photographs that indicate he’s lying. I 100% believe Evers and MacArthur aong with Phil Johnson might want to tread very carefully on what they say about Evers because the blow back from public opinion will be on a massive scale. Not to mention those two need to be concerned more about the abuse going on in their own camp rather than telling lies. Sheesh
Isn’t Grace Graduate School his own School?
That’s what I was thinking, now and in the past.
Bridget,
ROFL
Jonathan,
You are confusing two different types of technology. Cell phones are not car phones.
Both fill the same niche of portable mobile telephones.
More Cleaning Up with the Jesus Racket —
The money comes in in buckets!
Awarding himself an Honorary Doctorate…
NICE RACKET.
Bridget,
Not true. AT&T created Mobile Telephone Services in the 1940s.
Paige Rogers referenced four of the occasions when MacArthur told his tale of being in Memphis on the night MLK was assassinated. In all four, MacArthur said he stood on the toilet where James Earl Ray had shot MLK. But we know that it was the photographer who stood on a toilet in an adjacent building to get good “shots” of the Lorraine. So…I can see two possible scenarios. 1. The men who were with MacArthur ran into the photog that evening who showed them the room where he shot the photos; they mistakenly thought it was the crime scene. This seems unlikely for a number of reasons. 2. MacArthur didn’t go to Memphis but read the photog’s account and incorporated it into his tale.
I can’t wrap my head around 7 million dollars to just one person, one relative of JMac’s. I realize there’s the argument that Kory had employees that was his paying but why not end the speculation and show where the money went? Kory’s business has it’s own financial records. He could easily show where all the money went for these “services”. Seems like you’d be happy to do that to help clear the name of your preacher father in law, and your own name as well.
By the way, there’s a sanitized version of all this talking about what a great marketing/branding guy Kory is. It’s somewhere on the TMU website. Of course they never really address how much money was involved.
It’s all glossed over… “Yes, we realize some things got the attention of auditors and we know it didn’t look good…but trust us…it’s all legit.”
Problem is, in spite of his great marketing and branding, enrollment is down.
No, TMS ‘The Master’s Seminary’ wasn’t started until the 1980s. It’s his church and broadcast that are named ‘Grace’.
The school that gave MacArthur the honorary degree in 1976 was a short-lived unaccredited outfit run by a pal of his, David Hocking:
“Grace Graduate School and Bible Institute…founded in 1974 by David L. Hocking, pastor of the Grace Brethren Church of Long Beach, CA. Classes are conducted in the congregation’s educational facilities”
from The Brethren Encyclopedia (1983):
https://books.google.com/books?id=rpfZAAAAMAAJ&q=“grace+graduate+school”
Ah yes, the David Hocking who in 1992 was fired from his pastoral position after having an affair with a woman in his congregation. He was supposed to undergo a three-year restoration process, but a few months later he was on the teaching staff at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa. He still has a radio ministry over 41 stations in the U.S.
Jerome,
That comment was snark!
I made another comment about the subject somewhere. I went online and couldn’t find that college. So, that’s pretty laughable as well.
Your comment confirms the absurdity of including the info in his bio.
The only thing more worthless than a diploma mill degree is an diploma mill honorary degree. Sheesh.
The internet wasn’t invented in the 1960s–Al Gore invented that. No, just joking. I don’t think anything was going on with the net before then. Maybe the tech that led to its later use dates to the ’60s, a lot was going on in the ’60s, but there wasn’t any net until the ’80s, I don’t think, military application. As for the phone, there weren’t actual cell phones back in the ’60s or before then, that can’t be what Evans was referring to. Those car phones Evans is referring to are a different thing. Some relatively average people had them. Honestly, it makes sense that a civil rights leader might have a car phone in the late ’60s, absolutely plausible. In fact, that he includes that detail makes his story very believable and indicates to me that he very likely heard about it on his car phone…or radio…or more likely both.
Funny thing is Sinclair Lewis, whom I disagree with on God and faith and a million other things, simply nailed the abusive, celeb pastor type back in the 20s in Elmer Gantry. Great novel, and nothing has changed in almost 100 years. In addition to getting affluent off of unwitting parishioners, sleeping with any woman who’d have him, destroying the reputation of one of those women who tried to tell the truth about him, and twisting the Bible, Elmer Gantry also angled for and tried to leverage his way into an honorary doctorate. There’s nothing new under the sun.
Thousands of dollars a month???
Where are you pulling this stuff from?
Newspaper ad for’Mobilphone’ from 1967:
https://newspaperarchive.com/biloxi-daily-herald-may-03-1967-p-8/
“Costs Less Than $1.50 Per Day”
Law Prof,
And when Elmer Gantry hit the bookstore shelves, The Christians(TM) tried to get it banned:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elmer_Gantry
PastorDavidHockingCalvaryChapelWherever?
Hadn’t heard that name since I stopped listening to Christianese AM radio in the late Seventies, but your mention brought it back in full radio-announcer voice. The various Calvary Chapels DOMINATED local Christianese airwaves of the period.
NICE RACKET.
These guys could give the Saudi Royal Family lessons in nepotism.
Lewis was probably closer to the truth than most of his critics. Again, the guy was a hard-bitten atheist, something of a pompous jerk (so I’ve read), and yet, he just NAILED it with regard to showing Christians (or pseudo-Christians) the excesses of their ways. Of course the “Christian” leaders of the day hated him, the darkness always hates it when light is shined on them.
“Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.” Proverbs 16:18
Exactly what purpose does it serve MacArthur, to even mention that he was with Evers in the location where the shots were fired? Does it make him a “hero” in his mind’s eye? Does it align him with the “important” people of his day in making him more “relevant?” Does it give him a greater opportunity for more speaking engagements at conferences? Does it add more mammon to his religious regime in “using our LORD’S Name in vain” for personal glory, money, and fame?
I used to listen to “MacArthur Blubber” for several years until the scales were removed from my eyes as well, via the Holy Spirit. The “roots of religious bitterness” from MacArthur manipulation and indoctrination from my former abusive church, have been replaced with true freedom, liberty, and utter joy in Christ alone, for my salvation.
Praise the LORD for that discerning individual that came along side of me and said, “John MacArthur does not save souls, only Jesus can do that! Watch out for MacArthur’s “me-ology!”
My daughter taught first grade in public school for several years. One year, she had a student who was always shouting “What about me?! What about me?!” demanding attention during all class discussions/activities. She was patient with the child until it became a distraction to everything she was trying to accomplish in her class. She gently took the child aside, and said “Honey, this is not about YOU; it’s about US.” She explained the importance of the class for everybody. The student understood and accepted the correction. Everything went fine after that. Perhaps some Christian celebrities haven’t got this yet.
Perhaps they just aren’t cool enough. The new reformers prefer seminaries like Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, ground-zero for New Calvinism. It’s really cool there. Being a Mohlerite rather than a MacArthurite, a “New” Calvinist vs. an “Old” Calvinist, has more punch to it in the new reformation. MacArthur may hang out with the T4G and TGC boys, but he’s the odd-man out.
I agree.
"There are no wolves - just imperfect sheep"– well, in that case, Jesus knew hee-haw.Probably because he WAS an Outsider, and was able to look at it from an Outsider’s POV.
Very often things are invisible to Insiders (fish don’t know they’re wet) but obvious to an Outsider. It’s a matter of perspective, an Outsider doesn’t have the automatic assumptions and tropes of an Insider. An Outsider will have different blind spots than an Insider.
As the original Buffy the Vampire Slayer would put it, “MacArthur is SOOOOO Day-Before-Yesterday”.
(“I’m so TRENDY, Oh-so-TRENDY…”)
ARPANET came into existence in 1969. It expanded in 1981 with National Science Foundation money.
True. It’s why Christians are stupid if they refuse to listen to those outside the tribe, because everyone, whether in or out, is made in God’s image.
I learn something new every day–thx
I bet Al Gore invented that too! He would have only been in his 20s! Brilliant!
Now that’s a sheep of height.
Al Gore was otherwise engaged in 1969, having enlisted for Army service after graduating from Harvard. He served in Vietnam as a journalist, in less danger than some but more than others.
To drag this back to the topic, it’s quite something to remember those times in the late 1960s. So much turmoil and violence, so much uncertainty and grief.
This is very important to consider:
https://hipandthigh.wordpress.com/2019/02/08/macarthur-brannon-howse-charles-evers/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
Rich Maurer,
Good night! From the post
“The audio interview was added to a larger fake news report written up by one of Brannon’s social media sycophants and posted on an ad heavy screaming eagle patriot style website. The obvious take away from the entire article is that John MacArthur is a liar who made up his involvement with those men on that night. He is essentially like Ergun Caner, creating a bogus history about his early life.
Once that article went live, all of the woker-than-thou social justice scolds, and other various MacArthur haters from the survivor blogger fever swamps, breathlessly rushed to twitter to link it and grimly shake their heads at how awful John is. The celebrity pastor who was behind that terrible Statement on Social Justice inserted himself into a fraudulent narrative with key Civil Rights era leaders to boost his credibility as to speaking against social justice. This is certainly an explosive story. One that could ruin John’s legacy, that just so happens to have come to light right on the eve of him celebrating his 50th anniversary at Grace Community Church! How convenient! Will he respond?”
No one is claiming that what Evers said puts MacArthur in the same camp as Ergun Caner whose problems go far, far beyond his lies but that we are saving for another day. This is exaggeration and sounds silly. Then, of course we get the same old, same old *survivor blog swamps* and total codswallop about “social justice scolds.”
So, what is it that you were trying to get TWW readers and me to think about? Starting off with the same old, same old insults and then to say anyone here is trying to compare MacArthur to Ergun Caner just defeated your entire “this is VERY IMPORTANT for you to consider.”
You know, I could help Team MacArthur by showing them how to respond to this in a way that makes them come off sounding reasonable. However, reasonable is not on the list of Team MacArthur which hauls out the trebuchets and goes for totally destruction.
Listen to me carefully: MacArthur should call up his old friend, Evers, and attempt to show some humility as he and Evers work this out between them. What a witness it would be! I would write a full post on it. But, annihilation appears to be the goal. Spit Black Death on everyone and pretend that this is the will of God.
Speaking of which…
Given that MacArthur, Johnson and all of Team MacArthur are Calvinists, why not accept this as God’s providence and try to learn something from it? God always has a purpose, right? Well, figure it out!! And stop sounding unhinged…
I’m sure they’d flip that one right back around and say that their scalding, hateful responses, defensiveness, smug recitations of “no comment”, and sending out of the lunatic fringe to attack anyone telling the truth about them is also part of “God’s providence” and that since they are the anointed of God, they’re right even when they’re wrong.
I am fairly sure that from MacArthur’s perspective, his anointing transcends the fact that he fibbed to make himself look bigger and more important than he was, that his anointing transcends the fact that he is sending out underlings to spew venom at those who tell the truth about him. He cannot be wrong because he is the anointed, his critics cannot be right because they are not him.
I truly believe that there is some truth to this. SBC’s Founders – Calvinist pastors and deacons in the South – were slave-holders. They believed that sovereign God was on their side in the Civil War until early Confederate victories turned to defeat. Abraham Lincoln, in addressing their slavery “rights”, reminded them that they did not have the right to do wrong. Following the War, Southern Baptists distanced themselves from the Founders’ theology and remained distinctly non-Calvinist in belief and practice for 150 years … until Mohler came along.
Have some friends who, when you ask them where they did their graduate work, will tell you: “SBTS…before the crazies took over”. They had gone there in the 80s, when it was a pretty well-respected academic institution with a diversity of opinions, but still focused on Jesus. Now, in the name of purity of mission, Mohler has destroyed most of the academic reputation and focused it on…his personal theology.
Dr. Mohler truly believes he is on the right course. He is passionate about his mission. It is a misplaced passion, the wrong mission.
He was way, way too young to be placed in that position. Frankly, no one, not a wizened 72 year old, much less a punk 32 year old such as he was at the start, is fit for a position of such authority in the Kingdom of God. Young men are fools generally, but that usually fades as they run headlong into how stupid they are and live with the consequences of it. Pain and disappointment usually tend to mature you. But when given too much power, young men can insulate themselves from the consequences of their actions—and they become fools permanently. King George III was just hitting his early to mid-30s when he overreached and in his hubris lost the American colonies, Absalom comes to mind also.
Mohler had too much power and too little wisdom—and apparently has spent the last quarter century consolidating the former and ensuring he never gets the latter..
Law Prof,
LP, your words remind me that we are kindred spirits. You see what I see, you know what I know. As a former 70-year Southern Baptist, I agonize what I see and know, as Mohler and his band sweep through SBC life.
And yes, he was handed the baton at SBTS at too young an age … what were they thinking?! Age does not always equal wisdom, but it helps.
We are kindred spirits, I’ve noticed that also.
Interestingly…researchers took the Twin Towers event as an opportunity to test memory in cases like this…and they found that up to 40% of people did not remember key details of where they were, who they were with kind of things within one year of 9-11.
Of course I know for sure where I was. 😉 I was at work. My husband, who worked second shift at the time, was home caring for our two young daughters, and he called me at work after the first tower was hit. I thought he was trying to play a joke on me, didn’t believe him. My boss had just returned to the office from visiting one of our other locations, so I asked him if he’d heard anything on the radio while driving. He hadn’t. Moments later my husband called to report the second plane, and I was quite annoyed with him. He held the phone up to the TV, and it was only then that I believed him. I went in search of other co-workers (mine and my boss’s offices were somewhat secluded from other offices…weird set up), and found coworkers crowded into a conference room watching the events unfold on TV.
This page is part of the preview text on Amazon. It is somewhat vague…but yes, it does seem to support Macarthur being present, but perhaps it is just that Evers wasn’t there?
I don’t know why it’s so difficult for you to comprehend that people are not questioning whether Mac was sitting with a small fry in the civil rights movement at the time he found out about the assassination. People are questioning whether he thereafter went with Evers, a big fry in the movement, and the other hotshots, and then went and stood in MLK’s blood and stood on the toilet from whence (it was absolutely, completely impossible that) Ray shot King. What people are hypothizing, based upon Mac’s rather poor character that has been demonstrated for decades and upon the absurdity of some of his claims and the fact that they tend to make him the center of attention (see previous comment on poor character), is whether he took a mundane fact and spun it out into a tall tale that made him the center of a historical event.
That’s the issue—not this thing you pointed out. You really need to address the issue or just admit that your character is rightly called into question here.
You memory of the events of the Twin Towers going down will tend to be distorted—correct. The researchers are right. HOWEVER, that is something different from your memory of the moment you found out about it.
That’s not surprising. At least 40% of the people I know don’t give a big whoop about anything … they treat real-life events as a chain of movies, forgetting them and moving on to the next show.
At this point, I don’t care where MacArthur has been and who he has been hanging out with … I just wish he would go away!
tap tap swipe, tap tap swipe, OOOOO! IS THAT KIM KARDASHIAN????? …
Can’t see the forest for the cells on every vein of every leaf on every twig on every branch of every tree?
Or displacement like Captain Queeg in The Caine Mutiny getting obsessed/tunnel-visioned on “How many quarts of strawberries were in the Officers’ Pantry?”
Or (more sinister) deliberate/invincible ignorance to hijack the thread into minutiae and irrelevance? Old debating trick to keep the enemy off guard and having to stop and respond to your minutiae while you roll him over. (Break his flow, discredit him with having to go off on tangents responding. I’ve seen it happen in other contexts.)
Exactly—an old trick.
These aren’t the droids you’re looking for…
…
Move along…
car phones in the 60’s …guess they did have them;
https://weburbanist.com/2012/09/18/remember-millions-of-mobile-phones-in-the-1960s-you-should/