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I must confess. I have never been under Dee’s kitchen table with her pugs. However, I have been in King Tut’s tomb.

Phil Johnson says this whole thing as been made up by critics of MacArthur.

i.e.
“LIES!
FAKE NEWS!
CONSPIRACY! CONSPIRACY! CONSPIRACY!”

Just like today’s paranoid politics —
Of the World but not in it.

His story sounded odd. Here is this white boy in the South apparently palling around with the top leaders of the Civil Right movement. In some respects, I felt irritated because it appeared that MacArthur was draping himself in the glory and pain of the civil right leaders who had suffered at the hands of Jim Crow. It just felt wrong.

This white boy sez:
It should feel wrong; it’s a type of STOLEN VALOR.

There is a fishy information all around.

“Evers reportedly had what is now known affectionally as “a car phone.”

This would have been 1968 when Luther was assinated

Car phones were not in use until 1982.

I have a hard time believing John McArthur’s story. But I’m not sure Evers is remembering correctly either as car phones weren’t available yet.

Bridget:
There is a fishy information all around.

“Evers reportedly had what is now known affectionally as “a car phone.”

This would have been 1968 when Luther was assinated

Car phones were not in use until 1982.

I have a hard time believing John McArthur’s story. But I’m not sure Evers is remembering correctly either as car phones weren’t available yet.

Actually, car phones were available in the 1960s. They were just very bulky and very rare, usually found only in limousines and top-end luxury cars. I grew up in California Car Culture of the period, and they were also “bling” in some custom cars.

At one classic car show I attended a couple years ago, one of the cars in the show was a late 1950s top-of-the-line Cadillac Eldorado once owned by some Hollywood celebrity, and it had a car phone installed. (And a record player, the shellac-and-vinyl predecessor of a auto sound system.)

Headless Unicorn Guy,
P.S. I don’t think Mr Evars was driving an Eldorado, but car phones could be installed in most cars; just that they were somewhat expensive. They were also installed in cars for people (like business executives) who could not afford to be out-of-contact while travelling.

And a hassle compared to today’s cellphones. This was before direct dialing became universal, and like pre-Area Code “long distance”, you first had to connect to a special “mobile operator” who would connect you to the mobile phone.

Ha, found it. They were first used in 1946. (Of course, Wikipedia is the source so take it for what it’s worth . . )

I was a big fan of MacArthur from 1980 to maybe 1983, when during his radio broadcast his authoritarianism became too much to swallow. He’s always had three flaws: divisiveness, lack of humility, and the aforementioned authoritarian tendencies. Eventually, the flaws became too apparent to ignore. In this 50th celebration week of his first sermon at GCC, he is facing accusations of bullying, nepotism, inappropriately firing professors, supporting a child molester, failing to support a rape victim, and now, “embellishing”. Yet I suppose we won’t see even a blush. It’s tragic.

Hey y’all, I have never, ever, heard or read such a serious allegation as this one being made against Pastor John. Never. Please tread carefully.

Unlike the utterly disgraced James MacDonald at Harvest who cannot go 5 minutes without some gross immorality or another, Pastor John has remained above reproach for nearly 5 decades.

He deserves the benefit of the doubt based upon what I have read here.

I saw a documentary last year that covered multiple newscasts on 4/4/68. I seem to recall the area being shown as cordoned off. I’ll see if I can find the one I saw.

Also saw a late 60s flick recently with a guy acting big shot with his car phone, so there’s that.

Linn: MacArhur has sometimes been quite critical of the civil rights movement, yet he doesn’t want to appear unsympathetic. Being at the shrine of the martyred Dr. King gives him credibility (at least in his own mind). It’s kind of like the person who says, “Well I knew the one black kid at my school when I was in fifth grade..”

You want to pretend you are relevant when you aren’t.

I can only second this. I’ve heard this MacArthur story and it just seemed *wrong* to me, especially in light of the recent “Statement on Social Justice.” It’s almost as if JMac is using his own personal experience from 50 years ago to justify why, 50 years later, he can be so critical of “social justice” issues.

Of course, my bias is that I have a problem with a well-off, influential white guy telling people of color that they really can’t have social justice with their Gospel, but you know, that’s just me.

Bridget: I have a hard time believing John McArthur’s story. But I’m not sure Evers is remembering correctly either as car phones weren’t available yet.

I wouldn’t trust him any farther than I can throw a huey helicopter with one arm.

BD: Motorola came up with the first mobile phone as we understand one in 1973, and it cost over 3 thousand dollars (usd)

Did they have phone zombies back then too?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_phone

BD,

Well, maybe he did have one then, if he could afford it.

Hmm, reminds me of a certain former president that claimed on numerous occasions, but in particular when meeting the Israeli Prime Minister, that helped film the liberation of several concentration camps at the end of WWII. In fact, he never left Culver City, CA and slept in his bed every night.

Bridget: Well, maybe he did have one then, if he could afford it.

If he was head of the Mississippi NAACP, maybe they had provided it?

John Perkins confirms that John Macarthur was with him in Mendenhall on the night Martin Luther King was assassinated. (Beyond Charity: The Call to Christian Community Development, Introduction, Page 14).

Ever talk to any older person in Dallas who was there in November 1963?

The Warren Report and other interviews conducted showed wide variations by eyewitnesses all standing within 100 yards of the assassination.

My “guess” is that Mac was in a large enough group and was young enough to have been present, but not a real player, and thus not remembered by anyone.

As to details, Mac is probably off a bunch, whether by embellishment or poor memory, or poor recounting from the very beginning that has been retold and now is part of his memory that he actually believes.

If I were asked to, I would not rely on Mac’s complete story, especially details.

I’m not sure I would rely on Evers’ either.

Jackson and some of those other civil rights guys have been caught in some tall tales.

The car phone thing is an intriguing detail.

Checking other biographies would confirm if those guys used them to communicate. If Evers had one, King and others would have had them too. They’ll be mentioned if they were using them.

Jackie Newton:
Wasn’t John MacArthur at Woodstock also?

The #MacArthurWasThere hashtag on Twitter has some interesting photoshops…

https://twitter.com/Lex_Lutheran/status/1092568505721868288

After reading this, all I can think about is how that back in the 1980’s Mike Warnke managed to cash in for many years with all of his “embellishments” from his memories when he was allegedly a Satanic high priest! Time will tell if MacArthur is on the level. Somehow, though, the truth always has a habit of eventually showing up.

However, I do find it very odd that MacArthur’s ‘damage control team’ would assert that people would go to such great lengths to discredit his recollections and essentially turn this into some kind of ‘smear campaign’ against him.

dee: Really? And how do you know this?

Because Pastor John is LOOOOOOOORD, of course.

Ishy: That’s how Johnson retaliates against everything. He very rarely deals in facts, and just used ad hominem attacks. He also goes out of his way to attack people, sometimes even friends of JM.

See:http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2019/02/five-decades-of-faithfulness-will.html?m=1

Cellular was not invented till 1973. Even then, it was not available for the average person.

“Mobile” is not cellular and required a base station. Distance was a product of topography and height of tower. Service was expense and non-private in at least some circumstances.

I used mobile in 1987 and the equipment was not cellular.

drstevej: BTW, I did not see John McArthur in Tut’s tomb.

I heard that Elvis might be in there for sure.

Oracle at Delphi:
Ever talk to any older person in Dallas who was there in November 1963?

The Warren Report and other interviews conducted showed wide variations by eyewitnesses all standing within 100 yards of the assassination….I’m not sure I would rely on Evers’ (memory) either.

There’s a big difference between being an eyewitness to a murder and being someone who was in a place where they heard something shocking that changed the world. The eyewitness accounts of the first sort of event tend to be disjointed and conflicting, that’s something criminal investigators know and deal with. The accounts of the second type of event tend to be very reliable and tend to be seared into the memory—you probably remember them decades later better than your breakfast this morning. I remember exactly what I was doing, where I was, what the weather was like, etc., the moment I heard that the Twin Towers were hit. I remember that moment, just where I was as I was driving into work (southbound on Highway 100 in Edina, MN, right at the Highway 62 exit), who was announcing it on the radio (Dan Coles), his demeanor (incredulity) and the first person I spoke with about it (Bernie, my co-worker, as we were entering the north entrance of the Metro Building, and his demeanor (he thought I was joking). I remember the weather, I remember everything. Burned in.

That is surely the way it was with Evers, a civil rights leader. MacArthur is lying.

2007: “I climbed up on the toilet to look through the window where he held the gun.”

2009: “And Charles was talking and a man burst through the door and said, “Martin Luther King has been assassinated.” That happened that night while I was with Charles and John and some others.” …”And in those days the police weren’t nearly as protective, forensics hadn’t developed to what they had and they didn’t necessarily protect crime scenes. So we went to the motel, up to the landing, saw the blood where Martin Luther King had been shot just hours before by James Earl Ray. I actually went to the little building opposite the motel, went up on the second flood [sic], stood up on the toilet and looked out the window where James Earl Ray had shot him. And I was there at that very, very, very crucial time.”

2017: “And I stood in the little bathroom on top of the toilet where James Earl Ray shot him out the window. ”

Problems: He claims James Earl Ray stood on the toilet. If he’s been there, he would have known the shot wasn’t fired from the toilet but from the bathtub. He claims he was with Charles when he got the word that King had been assassinated. Wrong. Charles, in his accounts, has always stated he was driving when he got the news. He claims he was able to view the crime scenes because the police weren’t protecting the scenes, but according to records, the boarding house was blocked off for at least 3 days!

I don’t know if MacArthur’s story is true or not in its main points, but I would suspect that at the very least it’s a heavy spin on his role.

What bothers me more is what has bothered me for some time: the immediate, harsh, and ad hominem attacks on anyone who disagrees with the MacArthur party line. I’ve seen this again and again, including against faithful fellow believers. It’s wrong, and it’s cult-like in many ways.

And I know that some of his followers are dishonest, because I have family who have been MacArthur acolytes for many years, and they have done some really underhanded and manipulative stuff, and been completely unrepentant about it, and even judgmental of others.

I do my best to stay away from it all, and I rarely comment on it, but I sure think it doesn’t help the church.

Muff Potter,

Steve Martin for sure http://p0.ipstatp.com/large/005b39b86814009375a8

The John Perkins book (1993), referenced above, plainly states MacArthur was with him in 1968 when MLK was killed. Link is below.

Last September, in my office, we were retelling the events of 9/11. To my surprise, the couple of people who work with me had differing accounts of significant details as to how we all came to find out, and who did what to get a TV up and working.

Differing remembrances to significant events should not be surprising.

https://books.google.com/books?id=MLQS21wxz4IC&pg=PA14&dq=Beyond+charity+John+Perkins+John+Macarthur+%22was+with+me+in+mississippi+in+1968%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi18aChpqXgAhUROq0KHYpfAFoQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=Beyond%20charity%20John%20Perkins%20John%20Macarthur%20%22was%20with%20me%20in%20mississippi%20in%201968%22&f=false

So it looks like this is yet another hit piece on a respected evangelical pastor. MacArthur and Perkins have been consistent….this watchdog website has not. When you have a bias against someone you are liable to believe anything to prove your point of view. When the “root of bitterness” develops it’s hard to let go. John Perkins has verified his account so repent, apologize, and let it go man.

Ishy,

I remember there was a car phone in the Audrey Hepburn Sabrina movie

Virgil,

That may be, the central question was whether he was with Evers, whether he, a young unknown, was allowed to walk right by police barricades and officers and stand on the toilet from whence James Earl Ray (couldn’t possibly have) killed Martin Luther King, whether he was allowed to walk right past police barricades and essentially stand in MLK’s blood. He very obviously and without question did not do that. He completely lied about the primitive forensics investigations “back then”, he made stuff up. He did not do that stuff at all. He is lying. He’s taking a little something insignificant and turning it into a false narrative which puts him at the center of the world on that fateful day in history.

He’s making himself into some civil rights personage that he is not. I think it’s absolutely disgusting to lie about Martin Luther King’s blood, to use that man’s death and eliminate your multiple degrees of separation from it to promote your own brand. There will be a reckoning for that man.

Virgil: Differing remembrances to significant events should not be surprising.

Here are two older accounts, one from Evers’s memoir and the other from an AP story. Those were some traumatic days. Certainly everyone heard the news of King’s death more than once. Charles Evers’s own life was immediately threatened in a series of phone calls.

Have No Fear: The Charles Evers Story (1996), p. 223:
On the evening of April 4, 1968, I was driving highway 28 to Natchez. I had the radio on, but my mind was on that night’s rally in Natchez. The next day I was supposed to fly to Memphis to help Martin with a Negro garbage strike there. Suddenly a white voice came on the radio: Martin had been shot in Memphis. He’d been staying at the Lorraine Motel…

“Phoner Tells Negro Leader: You’re Next,” Chicago Tribune, 5 April 1968 (dateline Jackson, MS, April 4, 1968): Charles Evers, Negro Leader, said tonight that he had been threatened by a telephone caller after Dr. Martin Luther King was shot in Memphis. …
Gets Word at Home
Evers was at home here when he received word that King had died. As he heard the news, he said only, “He’s dead. He’s dead. He’s dead.”

Oracle at Delphi:
VirgilThe rest of the details, or at least some of them, may be embellished, however.

Very seldom does someone lie in this manner completely and totally, especially when they know there are people who can corroborate or deny what they said. The way lies are usually told is you take a little something, something of no great significance, and turn it into a big something that makes you the Center of the Universe, the Big Thing, a Personage of Great Importance. Those are the worst sort of lies, the ones based on a tiny grain of truth.

Obviously, the truth is that John MacArthur’s dad hung around some civil rights leaders and minorities at a time when that was not such a popular thing to do. John MacArthur apparently was introduced to some of these people at that time. I don’t think these facts can be disputed. It may have been a brave and noble thing for the MacArthurs to do and it may have been a cynical and self-serving thing. The MacArthurs were hanging around with minorities at a time when it was unpopular to do so. That’s indisputable. They have that in common with the Apostle Paul, who hung around gentiles, who were thought of as vermin in the Jewish culture of the day, but they also have that in common with Jim Jones, who was a strong supporter of civil rights from the 50s through the 70s—but of course, with anything but selfless motives.

That fact standing alone means nothing. What means something to me is that MacArthur knows darned well what happened, knows darned well he didn’t walk past a police barricade to stand in that bathroom or stand in MLK’s blood. If he did so, he’d have almost certainly been arrested for tampering with evidence at a crime scene. Of course, can one imagine a scenario in which he could even get close to those places? Let me reiterate: he lied.

SiteSeer,

“One of the men leading our group” [define “leading” – did it mean he was with them at the time? or just that they were associated with him?
+++++++++++++++++++

“define leading”… ha. that’s a fun one.

leading (in christian culture): whatever a man is doing at any given moment.

dee,

Shane’s not really saying anything at all. He’s just trying to smear. You tell the truth about the cult leader/celeb church leader, expect the ad hominem attacks. Do not expect anyone in power or any of their supporters like Shane to address the truth, to acknowledge any points. Expect them to rage and spew bile at anyone who tells the truth. That’s the way they roll. They’re not saying anything in particular, they’re just hating the light that shines on their deeds.

Shane: John Perkins has verified his account so repent, apologize, and let it go man.

Where did John Perkins say they all drove to Memphis together and walked through the crime scene the night of the shooting. Saying they were in the same room when the news broke is very different from walking through the crime scene the night it happened. The first is believable, the 2nd is not.

Dee,
Yes, might be. He said he went for two years. Didn’t want to be there, but his father made him. Then transferred to Pacific College.

What I find most fascinating, and laughably ironic is PJ’s upset tone regarding these recent events. With their theistic determinism, they ought to be glorying in God’s will having been fulfilled as all of this was determined to occur in eternity past.

Virgil:
What I find most fascinating, and laughably ironic is PJ’s upset tone regarding these recent events. With their theistic determinism, they ought to be glorying in God’s will having been fulfilled as all of this was determined to occur in eternity past.

It’s all predetermined until somebody gets their feelings or their bottom line hurt!

Law Prof: There’s a big difference between being an eyewitness to a murder and being someone who was in a place where they heard something shocking that changed the world. The eyewitness accounts of the first sort of event tend to be disjointed and conflicting, that’s something criminal investigators know and deal with. The accounts of the second type of event tend to be very reliable and tend to be seared into the memory—you probably remember them decades later better than your breakfast this morning.

You might remember but what you remember might not be what actually happened. Studies have been done on what are called “Flashbulb memories” (your second type), memories of learning about something dramatic such as the Challenger disaster, 9/11, etc. In the Challenger disaster, very shortly after the event a professor asked his students to write down how they learned about it. The professor then followed up much later and again asked the students to write down how they learned about it. The responses were different

https://www.csmonitor.com/Science/2014/0128/Where-were-you-when-the-Challenger-exploded-Why-your-memory-might-be-wrong

The same happened with 9/11 memories. The same almost certainly happened with memories of the murder of MLK.

This doesn’t mean that Macarthur isn’t deliberately lying but it does leave open that he has a false memory (admittedly a pretty grandiose false memory).

Ken F (aka Tweed): Where did John Perkins say they all drove to Memphis together and walked through the crime scene the night of the shooting. Saying they were in the same room when the news broke is very different from walking through the crime scene the night it happened.

It does seem clear that Evers and Perkins were in Mississippi when they learned of the crime. I have found no evidence that they learned the news together. MacArthur appears to have been working with Perkins in Mississippi at that time. So far I have not found news stories showing that Evers or Perkins immediately drove to Memphis.

There should be news stories, because civil rights leaders spent the ensuing days appealing to people in cities all around the US to refrain from violence. King died April 4, 1968. The stories I find dated April 5 all show Evers in Mississippi. Has anyone else found other contemporary accounts?

dee,

Subdued isn’t a term I’ve ever thought of when MacArthur comes to mind. And some of the mean stuff I’ve seen comes from those close to him and on his payroll. I think it’s more a matter of defending the party line at all costs for the sake of purity or truth or whatever righteous term they use for it on a given day.

As for him working it out with Evers, I have little hope of that. He’s got too much of an ego and too much pride. I don’t think I’ve ever seen him apologize, retract, or back down publicly in true humility, so I don’t see compromise or give-and-take happening.

I hope I’m wrong.

Shane: So it looks like this is yet another hit piece on a respected evangelical pastor.

MacArthur is not a “respected [E]vangelical pastor.” I’ve known about him since the 1980s, and why? Because in the 1980s he was being sued by a bereaved family for counseling advice given out by his organization.

“Court Ruling That Freed Clergy From Liability for Advice Allowed to Stand” (from 1989)

http://articles.latimes.com/1989-04-04/news/mn-952_1_supreme-court

More recently, MacArthur and his organizations have been credibly accused of covering up rape at his “university.”

And, finally, his “university” is having its accreditation challenged for a number of reasons.

And these are all things outside his theological teachings, which have been criticized on other grounds. So no, your man JMac is not a respected [E]vangelical pastor. Nope.

Law Prof: It comes from the way that he deals with others, as has been documented repeatedly, the way he deals with beliefs that don’t match up with his viciously anti-charismatic, cold-hearted Calvinism, the way he runs his seminary (and I knew about the coldness and hatefulness of that place long before the latest accreditation issues came up, through the pastor I worked alongside who’d gone to TMS and served on the staff of GCC with Mac), and the absolute smugness of the man, which just hits you like a blast of hot air from the oven.

In his blockbuster book, The Gospel According to Jesus, he harshly criticized other theologians, even though he had been among the Free Grace camp but a couple of years before! In that book and in subsequent discussions/books, he appeared to even question their salvation. His primary opponent, Charles Ryrie, was never anything but gracious. The problems at GCC and Master’s simply reflect the graceless character of MacArthur. Regardless what you think about his various positions including Calvinism, he is a poor role model.

While I, too, am suspect of John Macarthur’s version of events, as a physician I have a major issue with using this audio of Charles Evers as “proof” that McArthur is a liar. Having practiced in family medicine for over 30 years, listening to this recording it was clear to me Charles Evers has some degree of dementia. People with dementia can sound very good on the surface but it all falls apart when challenged with simple mental tasks like recalling the year. Even without such testing it was evidenced by the paucity of detail he supplied and the repetition of those few details. He also stated he didn’t remember John Macarthur at all. That isn’t likely to be the case were his memory intact especially given how intelligent
Evers was and how famous John MacArthur is. He covers this up by passing it off as knowing thousands of people. While that is no doubt true it is also a common sort of cover for impairment due to dementia. In addition, Evers doesn’t seem to follow the questions and requires redirecting several times.

Furthermore there are several ways I think we as listeners have been manipulated, intentionally or otherwise, by this *video.”
1. The recording was audio and not video. Had we been able to watch Evers’ face we would have been better able to discern whether he was really connecting.
2. The interviewer oriented Evers to the date by saying it to him. A good confirmatuon as to his mental status would have been to ask him the date. I suspect the year would have been off by a couple of decades.
3. The interviewer asked very leading questions, obviously trying very hard to get Evers to make specific statements.
4. The interviewer spoke quickly in complex sentences which would have been difficult for a 97 year old brain to follow. It was challenging enough for me to follow. I don’t think he did follow it based on his replies. But again we can’t watch his face to catch the blank look, if this were the case.

Dee, I’d encourage you not to use this to discredit John MacArthur. This interview with Evers is not reliable. You can do better.

dee: I am surprised that MacArthur tolerates the antics of the Pyromaniancs. MacArthur strikes me as more subdues. Does he use them to play good cop/bad cop, allowing Johnson et al take the hits?

He can’t be in ignorance of their actions, since they have been at it for literally decades. Judging from Macarthur’s statements on the record about Catholics, progressives, charismatics, etc, he doesn’t disagree with the pyros’ disdain in principle. So, that implies that they are acting with at least his tacit approval.

Sarah: This interview with Evers is not reliable.

Even without the Evers interview there is the problem of MacArthur’s version being inconsistent with the police reports. It appears there is no way he could have been walking through the crime scene as he claims. Perhaps he walked through it a number of days or weeks later, but certainly not that night.

Bridget,

My roommate in college was the son of a rural doctor in Michigan. He would on occasion get a phone call from his father’s phone while the doctor was driving. The year was 1968. I was a form of radio telephone.

Harvest is a Disgrace,

MacArthur has not been above reproach in private. If there haven’t been any public scandals for 5 decades, it simply means that there are people who are very good at keeping secrets. TMU is under probation for a reason, and what has been reported is only the tip of the iceberg.

I used to be a staunch supporter of John MacArthur and respected him very much. Then I learned the truth and now I believe the people who have begun to share their stories. Maybe one day the whole truth will come to light.

An Attorney: radio telephone

I was young and now am old. I’m old enough to remember those!

” … mobile radio-based phone systems … by 1964 there were 1.5 million mobile phone users in the United States …”

https://weburbanist.com/2012/09/18/remember-millions-of-mobile-phones-in-the-1960s-you-should/

Law Prof,

You’re missing facts. Most of what you’ve said is assumption or a kind of deduction. I was the one who first mentioned the Perkins quote and I also suggested that if the interviewer was identified correctly as someone with “an agenda” it might be wise to tread cautiously. By and large that hasn’t happened. Not responsible journalism or comment in my opinion.

Bring back Perry Mason or Diane Lockhart or Robert Boseman. At least then the readers would realise it’s fiction.

Law Prof,

And the Corporate Findlaw website spells it out but you already know that.

dee: I did drink Death Wish coffee

Haha! You are beyond woke – you have entered a higher level of consciousness!

I have not tried it yet, but given that my daily consumption of coffee increases weekly (I drink Larry’s Coffee and quite possibly fund the operation one day a month), I may well order some before too long.

Jerome: That isn’t likely to be the case were his memory intact especially given…how famous John MacArthur is.

So, reading the thread backwards, I came to this and simply cracked up laughing . . . couldn’t help myself.

dee,

With such lightness of foot and elegant sidesteps, you should be on Dancing with the Stars! 🙂

dee: Team MacArthur’s Cavalry has arrived.

You mean the Truth Squad Sock Puppets?

Happens every time this (or some other watchblog) puts a ManaGAWD under scrutiny. Suddenly the sock puppet Defenders of Mine Anointed come out of the woodwork. In politics, this is called a “Truth Squad”, a roving Propaganda Ministry unleashing on all Disloyals.

You guys all know that is Brannon Howse’s altered voice interviewing Evers don’t you? Are you sure you guys want to lend credibility to Howse?

Burwell:
Civil Rights Hero? Is that a woke follow-up from Activision? Clearly JoMac holds the high score.

“Get Woke, Go Broke.’

Team MacArthur … Team MacDonald … Team Mahaney … Team Mohler, etc. etc. I just wish the church would rally behind Team Jesus again!

dee:
What do I mean by law/rule oriented. Lets look at the issue of tithes.

We all agree that we should give to the church if we are members and support their mission.

Law/Rules: Talk about giving to the church. Give 10% of your gross income to the local church. Then give over and above to missionaries, parachurcn, etc. the Bible sez so. Also, give to the Lottie Moon offering.

Grace: Teach about the concept of giving in the Scripture and then say what my pastor said. “I’m not going to tell you how much to give. I’ll leave that between God and you.”

Perhaps you should just say Teacher of the Law.

Regarding Bob Jones, if there is a known connection, then he might be considered another Fundamentalist. Another case of Fundamentslism escaping Southern sources to replant elsewhere.

Lordship Salvation is just re-branded early Fundamentalism. And re-branded Roman Era Super Apostles.

In the next life, will JM gather followers around him and point out the faults in people like myself?

The conference being referred to is ‘Sovereign Nations’ held a few weeks ago which featured Ascol, MacArthur’s lieutenent Phil Johnson, James White of Alpha Omega Ministries, etc. (the guys behind the Statement on Social Justice and the Gospel from last year):

https://events.sovereignnations.com/g3precon19/#Speakers

After reading up on this topic, I may need to walk back my thoughts on the crime scene.

Former Atlanta mayor Andrew Young says he was at the hotel when MLK was shot, adding, “we were all committed. One of the movement’s philosophies was that if somebody was struck down doing good, whatever you were doing you had to stop it and continue his works. So as soon as we came back from the hospital, we met back in his room and decided that we would have to carry on.”

After they came back from the hospital they went into MLK’s room?

I also find interesting that MLK was initially downstairs, but the police wanted him moved upstairs. Once shot, Young says the police came toward them, rather than toward the shooter. Can’t avoid the thought – was it a better shot with the target upstairs?

https://abcnews.go.com/beta-story-container/US/86-andrew-young-recalls-horror-witnessing-moment-martin/story?id=54094604

dee,

Balance please. If the interviewer is leading, the interviewee follows the steps, to continue the dance theme. So it is about the interviewer as well.

“After they came back from the hospital they went into MLK’s room?”

According to the OP this wouldn’t have been possible.

“However, Rogers discovered reports that the area was on a 3 day lockdown. Also, the area was cordoned off within 10 minutes of the shooting.”

Unless, of course, parts of the OP are wrong.

Nathan Priddis:
I a way this is sorta cool. The whole point of the sixties was there’s something happening here. What it is ain’t exactly clear.

Maybe God is just working a little mystery into the act.

….In a way…

Oracle at Delphi: the efforts appear to be more about the people opposing racism than they are about really improving the world

Agreed. Just another platform for the YRR to take some selfies from. They will preach about how awful the organized church has been in reaching across racial lines, but how great the new reformation is at racial reconciliation. They will appear to be on the high road, while still walking the low road of aberrant theology. False humility … it’s just show and tell, mostly show.

“If I were Team MacArthur, I would be careful not to throw him under the bus.” (Dee)

Indeed. On a scale of 1 to 10, Charles Evers is stitched higher than John MacArthur in the fabric called America. If he has enough mental faculty to respond to questions in an interview of any sort, he no doubt recalls exactly where he was and who he was with when he received news that his brother Medgar was murdered by the KKK … where he was and who he was with when President Kennedy was assassinated … where he was and who he was with when the tragedy of 911 unfolded … where he was and who he was with when Dr. King was killed. Some roads traveled might get confused in an old man’s mind as he reflects back on his long journey, but he can’t forget milestones.

drstevej: But, hey… they worshiped dung beetles.

That explains how MacArthur is rolling in the dough.

__

Of possible interest:

“Martin Luther & The Dangers Of Sacralism” | Dr. James R. White | Sovereign Nation s Conference 2017
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d2qJl1wWlKc&t=0s&list=PLZJe-MWy0cYffxeXAhgXMr8qPT_d_dLml&index=5#dialog

;~)

– –

dee:
Virgil,
Good pickup./ I learned something. I didn’t realize that MacArthur went to Bob Jones. That might explain why I perceive what seems to be his emphasis on rules/law. etc.

Haven’t heard that name pop up for a while, but now twice in 24 hours, as it was mentioned on Leah Remini’s show last night. The discussion concerned the loss of tax-exempt status for Bob Jones University in the early 80s when the apparent policy of only admitting white students was adjudged to be incompatible with IRS requirements of lawful operation related to tax-exempt status.

Michael Battenfield: Others that were there have VALIDATED that John MacArthur WAS there

Where is “there”? Jackson or Memphis? It looks like there is very high probability he was in Jackson when he learned about the shooting. What are the sources validating his presense in Memphis that night.

dee:
Does anyone know from which institution macArthur received his earned doctorate? Lots of people call him *Doctor* but I can’t find anything except honorary degrees. I must be missing something and could use some assist.

On the TMS site it does not make a distinction between earned and honorary degrees: https://www.tms.edu/bio/johnmacarthur/

Tell the pugs that drstevej earned his degree

dee:
Ken F (aka Tweed),

We need to figure this out because so many people call him Dr MacArthur. he should not be called *Dr* unless he has an earned degree. I keep thinking these folks must know something, right?

These two sites indicated his doctorates are honorary.
https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/should-pastors-with-honorary-degrees-call-themselves-doctor.66947/
https://www.wthrockmorton.com/2018/10/20/in-2020-john-macarthur-will-become-chancellor-of-the-masters-university/
It looks like he does not use the title Dr but his followers do.

Account of MacArthur starting, then dropping out of a doctoral program:

https://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/80-33/John-MacArthurs-Life-Testimony

Seems MacArthur topped out earning a master’s degree from Talbot seminary.

But Phil Johnson who edits his books for him has a bachelor’s degree from a Bible institute.

Lowlandseer: John Perkins confirms that John Macarthur was with him in Mendenhall on the night Martin Luther King was assassinated. (Beyond Charity: The Call to Christian Community Development, Introduction, Page 14).

If this is the passage you mean, I read it as describing the time frame but not specifically the night of April 4:

“There were young men who brought teams of young folks to help us, like John MacArthur Jr.; they became involved in the struggle, too. In fact, John was with me in Mississippi in 1968 when Martin Luther King Jr. was kil1ed. I witnessed how his life was challenged as he understood racism and bigotry anew, as it was inflicted on him, a former Bob Jones University student.”

Regardless of where the men were that awful night, this is an amazing vignette. Thank you for the research.

dee: before everyone gets going on these bits of *proof* I want to reiterate something. This is not about MacArthur. This is about Evers. Evers said MacArthur lied and said he should stop doing so. MacArthur needs to go to Evers and do the right thing-be reconciled. Maybe they can work this out between the two of them over coffee and donuts.

Understood, thanks.

Missy M: Multiple witnesses have testified more than once that MacArthur was there,

Where is “there”? The “multiple witnesses” appear to claim he was in MS that night. I have not seen any corroboration that he was in Memphis the night of the shooting. The question is not whether he was with any of the people mentioned that night. The queation is whether be actually walked through the crime scene that night. Is there any evidence for that?

Off this topic but important news today.

https://www.wspa.com/news/minister-accused-of-having-sex-impregnating-minor-in-spartanburg-co/1760019372

Missy M: before your claim even carries the weight of a 3rd grader.

You don’t think school-aged children can be trusted know the truth and tell the truth? I would hate to be a child in your family.

John MacArthur sure has convinced many people to worship him instead of Jesus Christ.

During the summers of 1968 and 1969 I attended the junior high summer camp at Hume Lake. One of those years, I think 1969, MacArthur was the main speaker for the week. That was the first I had ever heard of him. My memory is completely blank as to whether or not I actually spoke to the man, and the only thing I remember from his various messages was that “Abba” can be translated “Daddy.” I had never heard that before.

Fast forward several MacArthur-free decades. I noticed that a friend had a MacArthur book on her shelf, and I wondered if it was the same guy. I looked at the author picture in the book, and was pretty sure that it was indeed the same guy.

About 7 years ago a new neighbor moved into our apartment complex. We became acquainted, and I learned very quickly that he was a huge MacArthur fan, owning several of his books (including a study Bible), listened to lots of his sermons on line, and was even a member of the tape club back when cassettes were the hottest technology.

It has only been in the last few years, through reading this and other blogs, that I have come to realize that, shall we say, there are worms in the MacArthur apple.

So yes, I had heard of him, but only a few times for the better part of 50 years. Apparently the folks at the various churches I have attended over the years are not counted among his blind followers and acolytes (thank heaven). One very trusted source said he believes MacArthur has done good work over the decades but in certain well-known instances, he has “worn the robes of the Pharisee.”

For whatever my 2 cents might be worth.

Michael Battenfield: Wenatchee

Of course he has something to gain by inventing this story. Are you kidding? It makes him sound very important. He was right there on the balcony, he was with Evers, brother of Medgar Evers, he was right there at the center of history being made. Are you kidding me? It’s astonishing that you’d say that. Count me nonplussed, I cannot believe you could type that with a straight face. Simply amazed at your cynicism or naiveté, not sure which it is.

Guest,

Now now, Dee demands that people tell the truth or she put you in moderation. and she claims to be offended by lies and you and I and she knows John MacArthur has never even implied that anyone worship him we all know that’s a lie even though we might not agree with him. Wait ’til you hear from her about this lie. Mmmmm…..mmmmm…lies upset her.

Wait, she’ll probably just ignore this inconvenient task and say I’ve done it for her.

Missy M,

dee,

So Evers says he’s lying, but MacArthur doesn’t respond.

dee: I am going to try an experiment. I’m going to ask people in my life if they know John MacArthur. That includes Christians and nonChristian alike. I’m going to keep track of the answers and I will be truthful although I doubt they’ll believe it.

I intend to ask people of al stripes. I bet the’ll know who Billy Graham is. I’m adding that to my question.

One of my coworkers knows who John MacArthur is. We were having a meeting with an icebreaker and he mentioned that he read books by Johnny Mac and R.C. Sproul. I’m pretty sure nobody else on my team knew who they were. In fact, I asked another team member privately, “Should I tell him I’m picketing where John MacArthur is preaching [Together for the Gospel]?” We agreed that probably wouldn’t be good for group cohesion, so the first coworker doesn’t know about this particular extracurricular activity of mine.

dee: one of the meanest, ugliest groups of people

“By their fruit you will recognize them – that is, by their contrived doctrine and self-focus. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the unhealthy tree bears bad fruit.” (Matthew 7:16-17 AMP)

Michael Battenfield: Dr. MacArthur has nothing to gain by inventing this story.

Sure he does. That “Statement on Social Justice” put out by MacArthur and his buddies is proof enough that MacArthur needs to be able to assert, “why yes, I was with MLK.” That way he can justify telling people of color why their demands for racial justice are wrong and not “gospel,” and more than that, the people of color just basically need to sit down and defer to the wisdom of John MacArthur and his buddies.

This is my own personal opinion and does not reflect on anyone else.

Missy M,

MacArthur harms people who have mental health issues.

He believes in some bogus stuff – he apparently feels that all anyone with depression, anxiety, or other such problems needs is to believe in Jesus, have faith, and/or read the Bible. That right there is enough for me to have a problem with that.

That, plus he usually comes across as being pretty arrogant.

Even if you were right about this MLK event in regards to J-Mac, it still doesn’t make him an okay dude in my view. He has other problems.

Nevermind, Missy. I saw the pictures and article you are referring to. If you read carefully, you will note the photog was in a building directly across from the Lorraine, and not in the building James Earl Ray shot from. And we still have no verification that MacArthur was on scene that night or the next day.

Daisy: That was my thought, too.

The whole reason why J-Mac would say he was good buddies with leaders of the Civil Rights movement was to squelch any blow back he got from his anti-Social Justice statement he issued several months ago.

The earliest google reference I saw to that story was 2003 and another in 2009. It’s not a new story.

dee:
dee,
In fact the more I look into this, I have a feeling it is Frank Turk. In my opinion, having encountered his unChristianlike wrath, few people who claim to be Christians are as mean and disgusting as he is.

In case it is him, let me update everyone. Chantry is still in prison awaiting another trial after being convicted on some charges. Thankfully, sometimes this is justice in this world even though men in the church attempt to thwart it.

Sounds like it comes in the same basic spirit as Westboro Baptist, eh? Were I John Mac, I’d hate to have supporters like that. You know them by their fruits. When a person comes in a hateful, ugly, unchristian spirit, I tend to assume they’re not Christians. I assume they’re the ones we were told about long ago, the whitewashed tombs, the ones who have the form of godliness, but deny the power of it. If there’s anything that’s a clear denial of the power of God, having an abusive, spiteful attitude, showing none of the Fruits of the Spirit, has to be towards the top of the list. And if there’s anything that seems to be utterly evil and diabolical (as opposed to merely misled or confused), it’s covering that spite and hatred up with an outer facade of purity and sweetness. In my opinion, that’s what you’ve got with the MacArthur crowd. Certainly not everyone, but the true believers, whom I’m sure are all sweetness and cleanness when they converse at church, sure do seem to be a different animal indeed behind the anonymity of a forum and a non de plume.

It’s not that I think I have the right to judge someone all-in-all, because there’s no way I can possibly know what they’ve gone through in their lives or what sort of constitution God made them with. There’s no way anyone can know if we’d have done better with their nature and nurture. That’s God’s judgment and His alone. But when it comes to saying “I think that’s a brother or sister with whom I can fellowship” or “I think that’s a fake Christian…or a young, immature, confused Christian carried away by a really bad environment…or perhaps even a person given over to evil because their fruits are simply awful”, I do think Christians not only can do that, but should do that. Otherwise, the disciples might just as well have gone and had fellowship with the Pharisees, or the superapostles, or the guy having relations with his step-mom.

I realize the improprieties with payments towed his son in law Kory Welch has been discussed before . I didn’t realize that over the years it amounts to 7 million dollars. No wonder their accreditation was at risk. This article is more detailed .

JMac is not above reproach.

https://www.hometownstation.com/santa-clarita-latest-news/masters-university-president-pays-son-in-law-millions-of-dollars-through-nonprofits-251199

Lowlandseer:
Jerome,

He got an honorary doctorate from Talbot in 1977 and one from Grace Graduate School the year before.

Isn’t Grace Graduate School his own School?

dee:
Jonathan,

You are confusing two different types of technology. Cell phones are not car phones.

Both fill the same niche of portable mobile telephones.

Bridget: Isn’t Grace Graduate School his own School?

Awarding himself an Honorary Doctorate…
NICE RACKET.

Paige Rogers referenced four of the occasions when MacArthur told his tale of being in Memphis on the night MLK was assassinated. In all four, MacArthur said he stood on the toilet where James Earl Ray had shot MLK. But we know that it was the photographer who stood on a toilet in an adjacent building to get good “shots” of the Lorraine. So…I can see two possible scenarios. 1. The men who were with MacArthur ran into the photog that evening who showed them the room where he shot the photos; they mistakenly thought it was the crime scene. This seems unlikely for a number of reasons. 2. MacArthur didn’t go to Memphis but read the photog’s account and incorporated it into his tale.

Bunsen Honeydew: By the way, there’s a sanitized version of all this talking about what a great marketing/branding guy Kory is.

Problem is, in spite of his great marketing and branding, enrollment is down.

Jerome: The school that gave MacArthur the honorary degree in 1976 was a short-lived unaccredited outfit run by a pal of his, David Hocking:

Ah yes, the David Hocking who in 1992 was fired from his pastoral position after having an affair with a woman in his congregation. He was supposed to undergo a three-year restoration process, but a few months later he was on the teaching staff at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa. He still has a radio ministry over 41 stations in the U.S.

The only thing more worthless than a diploma mill degree is an diploma mill honorary degree. Sheesh.

Funny thing is Sinclair Lewis, whom I disagree with on God and faith and a million other things, simply nailed the abusive, celeb pastor type back in the 20s in Elmer Gantry. Great novel, and nothing has changed in almost 100 years. In addition to getting affluent off of unwitting parishioners, sleeping with any woman who’d have him, destroying the reputation of one of those women who tried to tell the truth about him, and twisting the Bible, Elmer Gantry also angled for and tried to leverage his way into an honorary doctorate. There’s nothing new under the sun.

Law Prof,
And when Elmer Gantry hit the bookstore shelves, The Christians(TM) tried to get it banned:

On publication in 1927, Elmer Gantry created a public furor. The book was banned in Boston and other cities and denounced from pulpits across the United States.[4] One cleric suggested that Lewis should be imprisoned for five years, and there were also threats of physical violence against the author. Evangelist Billy Sunday called Lewis “Satan’s cohort”.[5]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elmer_Gantry

Bunsen Honeydew: I can’t wrap my head around 7 million dollars to just one person, one relative of JMac’s.

NICE RACKET.
These guys could give the Saudi Royal Family lessons in nepotism.

“Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.” Proverbs 16:18

Exactly what purpose does it serve MacArthur, to even mention that he was with Evers in the location where the shots were fired? Does it make him a “hero” in his mind’s eye? Does it align him with the “important” people of his day in making him more “relevant?” Does it give him a greater opportunity for more speaking engagements at conferences? Does it add more mammon to his religious regime in “using our LORD’S Name in vain” for personal glory, money, and fame?

I used to listen to “MacArthur Blubber” for several years until the scales were removed from my eyes as well, via the Holy Spirit. The “roots of religious bitterness” from MacArthur manipulation and indoctrination from my former abusive church, have been replaced with true freedom, liberty, and utter joy in Christ alone, for my salvation.

Praise the LORD for that discerning individual that came along side of me and said, “John MacArthur does not save souls, only Jesus can do that! Watch out for MacArthur’s “me-ology!”

Vinnie: in spite of his great marketing and branding, enrollment is down

Perhaps they just aren’t cool enough. The new reformers prefer seminaries like Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, ground-zero for New Calvinism. It’s really cool there. Being a Mohlerite rather than a MacArthurite, a “New” Calvinist vs. an “Old” Calvinist, has more punch to it in the new reformation. MacArthur may hang out with the T4G and TGC boys, but he’s the odd-man out.

Law Prof: Lewis was probably closer to the truth than most of his critics. Again, the guy was a hard-bitten atheist, something of a pompous jerk (so I’ve read), and yet, he just NAILED it with regard to showing Christians (or pseudo-Christians) the excesses of their ways.

Probably because he WAS an Outsider, and was able to look at it from an Outsider’s POV.

Very often things are invisible to Insiders (fish don’t know they’re wet) but obvious to an Outsider. It’s a matter of perspective, an Outsider doesn’t have the automatic assumptions and tropes of an Insider. An Outsider will have different blind spots than an Insider.

Law Prof: The internet wasn’t invented in the 1960s–Al Gore invented that. No, just joking. I don’t think anything was going on with the net before then. Maybe the tech that led to its later use dates to the ’60s, a lot was going on in the ’60s, but there wasn’t any net until the ’80s, I don’t think, military application

ARPANET came into existence in 1969. It expanded in 1981 with National Science Foundation money.

Friend: ARPANET came into existence in 1969. It expanded in 1981 with National Science Foundation money.

I learn something new every day–thx

Nick Bulbeck: I agree. “There are no wolves – just imperfect sheep” – well, in that case, Jesus knew hee-ha

Now that’s a sheep of height.

This is very important to consider:
https://hipandthigh.wordpress.com/2019/02/08/macarthur-brannon-howse-charles-evers/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

dee:
Rich MaurerGood night! …Given that MacArthur, Johnson and all of Team MacArthur are Calvinists, why not accept this as God’s providence and try to learn something from it? God always has a purpose, right? Well, figure it out!! And stop sounding unhinged…

I’m sure they’d flip that one right back around and say that their scalding, hateful responses, defensiveness, smug recitations of “no comment”, and sending out of the lunatic fringe to attack anyone telling the truth about them is also part of “God’s providence” and that since they are the anointed of God, they’re right even when they’re wrong.

I am fairly sure that from MacArthur’s perspective, his anointing transcends the fact that he fibbed to make himself look bigger and more important than he was, that his anointing transcends the fact that he is sending out underlings to spew venom at those who tell the truth about him. He cannot be wrong because he is the anointed, his critics cannot be right because they are not him.

Max: I truly believe that there is some truth to this.SBC’s Founders – Calvinist pastors and deacons in the South – were slave-holders.They believed that sovereign God was on their side in the Civil War until early Confederate victories turned to defeat.Abraham Lincoln, in addressing their slavery “rights”, reminded them that they did not have the right to do wrong. Following the War, Southern Baptists distanced themselves from the Founders’ theology and remained distinctly non-Calvinist in belief and practice for 150 years … until Mohler came along.

Have some friends who, when you ask them where they did their graduate work, will tell you: “SBTS…before the crazies took over”. They had gone there in the 80s, when it was a pretty well-respected academic institution with a diversity of opinions, but still focused on Jesus. Now, in the name of purity of mission, Mohler has destroyed most of the academic reputation and focused it on…his personal theology.

Max: Dr. Mohler truly believes he is on the right course.He is passionate about his mission.It is a misplaced passion, the wrong mission.

He was way, way too young to be placed in that position. Frankly, no one, not a wizened 72 year old, much less a punk 32 year old such as he was at the start, is fit for a position of such authority in the Kingdom of God. Young men are fools generally, but that usually fades as they run headlong into how stupid they are and live with the consequences of it. Pain and disappointment usually tend to mature you. But when given too much power, young men can insulate themselves from the consequences of their actions—and they become fools permanently. King George III was just hitting his early to mid-30s when he overreached and in his hubris lost the American colonies, Absalom comes to mind also.

Mohler had too much power and too little wisdom—and apparently has spent the last quarter century consolidating the former and ensuring he never gets the latter..

Max:
Law Prof,

LP, your words remind me that we are kindred spirits.You see what I see, you know what I know.As a former 70-year Southern Baptist, I agonize what I see and know, as Mohler and his band sweep through SBC life.

And yes, he was handed the baton at SBTS at too young an age … what were they thinking?!Age does not always equal wisdom, but it helps.

We are kindred spirits, I’ve noticed that also.

Lowlandseer: John Perkins confirms that John Macarthur was with him in Mendenhall on the night Martin Luther King was assassinated. (Beyond Charity: The Call to Christian Community Development, Introduction, Page 14).

This page is part of the preview text on Amazon. It is somewhat vague…but yes, it does seem to support Macarthur being present, but perhaps it is just that Evers wasn’t there?

Jenn R: Interestingly…researchers took the Twin Towers event as an opportunity to test memory in cases like this…and they found that up to 40% of people did not remember key details of where they were, who they were with kind of things within one year of 9-11.

Of course I know for sure where I was. I was at work. My husband, who worked second shift at the time, was home caring for our two young daughters, and he called me at work after the first tower was hit. I thought he was trying to play a joke on me, didn’t believe him. My boss had just returned to the office from visiting one of our other locations, so I asked him if he’d heard anything on the radio while driving. He hadn’t. Moments later my husband called to report the second plane, and I was quite annoyed with him. He held the phone up to the TV, and it was only then that I believed him. I went in search of other co-workers (mine and my boss’s offices were somewhat secluded from other offices…weird set up), and found coworkers crowded into a conference room watching the events unfold on TV.

You memory of the events of the Twin Towers going down will tend to be distorted—correct. The researchers are right. HOWEVER, that is something different from your memory of the moment you found out about it.

drstevej: I did not see John McArthur in Tut’s tomb

At this point, I don’t care where MacArthur has been and who he has been hanging out with … I just wish he would go away!

Law Prof: I don’t know why it’s so difficult for you to comprehend that people are not questioning whether Mac was sitting with a small fry in the civil rights movement at the time he found out about the assassination.

Can’t see the forest for the cells on every vein of every leaf on every twig on every branch of every tree?

Or displacement like Captain Queeg in The Caine Mutiny getting obsessed/tunnel-visioned on “How many quarts of strawberries were in the Officers’ Pantry?”

Or (more sinister) deliberate/invincible ignorance to hijack the thread into minutiae and irrelevance? Old debating trick to keep the enemy off guard and having to stop and respond to your minutiae while you roll him over. (Break his flow, discredit him with having to go off on tangents responding. I’ve seen it happen in other contexts.)

Law Prof: Exactly—an old trick.

These aren’t the droids you’re looking for…
…
Move along…