1, sorry drstevej.

“I believe that all of the pastors and staff who worked with Hybels need to come out of the dark and admit that they saw some things that didn’t seem right but let it go …”

As I noted in a comment on one of Dee’s earlier pieces regarding this sad situation “I suspect that there is a whole lot more to be revealed when WCA board members and WC elders start talking.”

The level of Hybels’ transgressions over a number of years could not … could not … have gone unnoticed by church elders.

Dee,
Thanks for your insightful comments on this situation. My family has been a long time attender / member / volunteer family at WCCC. We didn’t run in the same circles as Hybels but have been there long enough to hear him preach many many times, be at smaller events where he has shown up, and know some people close to him. There was always gossip about him, the only thing I recall hearing were about his ego. I’m sure there were plenty others I never heard. All that to say, this isn’t an being apologist for him or the ‘leaders’, I agree with you, the behaviors he displayed are all flags that people in his circle should have called out at the time. I stand with the victims. Just an anecdote / peon perspective I felt I needed to share / get off my chest. Thanks for listening.

I was pleasantly surprised by the elders and Heather’s choice to step down last night. Though difficult, and seismic for Willow, it was the only option they had.

Also very nice to see Vonda’s gracious response https://www.facebook.com/vonda.dyer. (Sorry. Couldn’t figure out how to include just her response post.)

Curious, but not surprising, that Heather did not offer any meaningful apology in her resignation statement. It was just like her mentor’s when he left: all about her, taking no specific responsibility for her actions. Good riddance.

Assuming that the new leadership and the independent council can perform effectively, I see at least three areas that will be very revealing:

1) Bill’s misdeeds. Not only his sexual abuse, but also his abuse of power.
2) Willow’s use of NDAs. This, I believe, has the potential to be as explosive as Bill’s behavior. If Willow is serious about truth and turning over a new leaf, these NDAs will be voided and people encouraged to come forward.
3) The way that the leaders mismanaged the whole affair. I hope we will see who, like Steve Carter, were champions for greater transparency and care for the victims, as well as those who were solely interested in the good of the institution. What did the advocates for truth want to have happen, and what was the response of those who resisted.

Please pray for those of us who have attended Willow and those who will lead the transition into what we hope will become the new, revitalized and vibrant Willow. There are so many decisions to be made as the church looks to start anew. Although there are many who were captured by Bill’s charisma or the entertainment offered as worship, there are many more who want Jesus Christ and God’s word at the center, and Willow to be a place where people can become committed followers of Christ. Though it has been a winding path to get to this point, this is an amazing opportunity to show how, only through Christ, can repentance and forgiveness lead to healing and registration.

May God grant the grace and strength to all involved to do the necessary to make it so. To His glory!

DD: the behaviors he displayed are all flags that people in his circle should have called out at the time

After the fact, it’s like peeling an onion: layers upon layers. Seeing the next layer only after the previous cover-up layer comes off.

https://www.wthrockmorton.com/2018/08/09/willow-creek-association-addresses-bill-hybels-controversy-at-opening-of-global-leadership-summit-video/

Throckmorton here peels away and reveals from today’s Opener at the GLS the yet-in-place-at-Willow presumptuousness:

“In other words, the world can’t go on without the GLS.

“IMAGINE A WORLD WITHOUT”
“It is this attitude (the world needs us) that turns me off and strikes me as presumptuous. I am open to reasons why the show must go on. Maybe somebody’s livelihood is dependent on it. I get that. But don’t tell me that the sun won’t come up or that women around the world would be lost without you.

“I think this is what gets evangelical pastors — like Bill Hybels maybe?– into trouble. I think Mr. De Vries expressed some of that too. The GLS must go on because we need it to. No, actually we don’t. Find some other reason.” – end of quote from Throckmorton’s website.

Pride goes before a fall or fail. They keep showing their pride, falling, and failing God’s people, women in particular.

Behavior modification has to be intertwined with system and belief modification. Leadership change doesn’t guarantee that there will be system and belief change.

It will be interesting to see what happens and if the new leadership and remaining community at Willow will reflect on that.

However – one of the main problems is much of their underlying beliefs and assumptions about leadership and leadership culture. So will they choose the next pastors and elders before addressing and questioning those systemic leadership beliefs and values?

A significant interim period seems necessary.

I am sitting here trying to even imagine how many assets they have as a church, as well.

John: Again, based on my experience, the people with real integrity very likely left long ago.

Yes.

Max: The level of Hybels’ transgressions over a number of years could not … could not … have gone unnoticed by church elders.

But they kept quiet about it.
LA OMERTA?
Or just it’s really hard to be critical of something from which you personally benefit?

Thomas055,

Amen.

Cobber: Even after their resignations, the (now former) WCCC leaders are still spouting Leaderspeak (a close cousin of Newspeak). They don’t come across as people who know how to speak frankly or honestly. I find myself unable to trust people who can’t come down from the leadership cloud and just be one of us, and there seem to be far too many church leaders (celebrity and otherwise) who have that problem. Among the issues my wife and I face with returning to church after years of absence in the wake of leadership abuse, this is a sensitive one for me.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

it’s ridiculous. obnoxious. fake phony plastic synthetic

so incredibly sick of the company politics of church leaders leading in leadership as they lead (gawd such vaunted trumped up language), while everyone else sits there expectantly like 3 year-olds at a puppet show.

why return to that?

my friends and i can do better than that, in our weekly prayer time. my neighbor does better than that corralling coats to pass out to those without homes in winter, just her. i could go on…

Max: The level of Hybels’ transgressions over a number of years could not … could not … have gone unnoticed by church elders.

As true and certain as the morning sunrise.

DD:
Dee,
Thanks for your insightful comments on this situation. My family has been a long time attender / member / volunteer family at WCCC. We didn’t run in the same circles as Hybels but have been there long enough to hear him preach many many times, be at smaller events where he has shown up, and know some people close to him. There was always gossip about him, the only thing I recall hearing were about his ego. I’m sure there were plenty others I never heard.

If the guy was known to have an ego, one big enough and persistent enough to generate rumors around the church, that might well be more disqualifying than being a sexual predator. Humility is kind of the key thing, the big thing, with leaders; if that’s not there, it’s over, that’s not a leader, that’s a danger to anyone around them. You know, it’s that ego that compels you to surround yourself with “yes” men and women, it’s that ego that makes you think you’re the church, you’re the thing, you’re the “brand”, as Mark Driscoll allegedly so sociopathically put it, it’s that ego that makes you think it’s a good thing to draw people to yourself rather than point them to Jesus, it’s that ego that eventually will make you hate God, because an arrogant person looks down smugly on anything and anyone beneath them and comes to despise anything or anyone above them. It’s that ego that makes you think you can treat women like your personal sexual playground, like a thing to be used when it gives you pleasure and jettisoned when it ceases to.

If you heard rumors about the guy’s ego, what in the world would make you think that was a guy who’d model Christ in any meaningful way? Why would you want to spend two seconds listening to such a person? I’m glad you got free from him, he’s long gone and his reputation, which he so jealously guarded, is now destroyed, as it should’ve been decades ago and you are rid of him. But why do people stay and listen?

I wonder this myself, having gone through it before, where I was in your shoes, listening to a man who I could neither respect nor trust deliver messages on Sunday, a man with a giant ego that was likely fatal to his relationship to God and others, and I’m still flummoxed at my behavior. Why do we put up with it?

elastigirl: +++++++++++++++++++++++++++

it’s ridiculous.obnoxious.fake phony plastic synthetic

so incredibly sick of the company politics of church leaders leading in leadership as they lead (gawd such vaunted trumped up language), while everyone else sits there expectantly like 3 year-olds at a puppet show.

why return to that?

my friends and i can do better than that, in our weekly prayer time.my neighbor does better than that corralling coats to pass out to those without homes in winter, just her.i could go on…

The reason you, your boyfriend and your neighbor are doing better than that is because it sounds like what you’re doing is actually being the Church, while what Willow Creek leadership is doing is fraudulent, it sounds as if it’s “the form of godliness, but denying the power” of it, they sound like superapostles, ravenous wolves, whitewashed tombs, full of fake words and garbage (maybe they don’t even know how to speak like just a plain old Christian anymore because they never did know how nor cared to be a plain old Christian, just a follower of Jesus), whereas you sound like you’re just trying to love Jesus and others.

As an previous resident of South Africa, out of curiosity I took a look at the Willow Creek Association South Africa website. They are still selling all the more recent books, dvds and resources written and produced by Bill Hybels. Their leaders are currently attending the Global Leadership Summit in Chicago, and gushed on their Facebook page that GLS 2018 will be the best Summit ever “considering the attack”. It seems that Willow Creek Associations in other parts of the world are either ignorant, or in denial, about the recent events at WCC, and still choose to believe that Bill Hybels is a hero. It makes me furious to think that 1000s around the world are continuing to be duped and exploited by the Willow Creek industry. And it makes me even more furious to see WCA leaders from other nations publicly labelling the courageous women and victims who have spoken out as causing an “attack” on the GLS.

Muff Potter: From the article up-top:
“Yesterday, Lee Strobel tagged me on Twitter and claimed that no one knew anything about what Bill Hybels was doing. He said this sin was done in the darkness. I begged to differ. I pointed out that everyone was aware that Bill Hybels was counseling a suicidal women who claimed, then retracted, that she was in a 14 year adulterous relationship with him. They knew she was going over to his house and they knew she spent the night when Hybels’ wife was out of town. Sorry but that dog won’t hunt. Game over.”

I love it when smart and savy women call horse poo-poo on guys like Strobel.

Amen! I have long been asking ‘Where is Strobel?’ And all the others who were on board this sinking ship for so long. I can’t remember which article mentioned the staff’s joking references to Bill’s ‘flavor of the month’, but don’t tell me this does not suggest those on board didn’t know he had an eye for the women. And possibly much more than an eye.

But of course all must look out for themselves. All must declare themselves utterly innocent – and ignorant. I recall when my spouse used this tactic in defending a pastor who somehow always managed to counsel exactly the worst possible thing to those who sought his help. I didn’t buy the ‘innocence’, but for golly sake, if the guy is that inept, he needs to be in another line of work!

When we see someone in the church, no matter how high up on the totem pole, exhibiting inappropriate attitudes and behavior, we need to do the right thing. If we have the avenue open, we should challenge them directly. If not, we should use whatever avenues are open to us. Isn’t that what elders and accountability are supposed to be all about? And if all they do is circle the wagons, we need to not only bail out, but make a fuss about it on our way out the door. We may not be able to personally stop wickedness, but we can certainly ensure that we are not one of its enablers.

I’m sorry, but I am not buying the ‘I had no idea!’ claims of anyone who was at Willow in a position of leadership or involved in the worship team. They did have an idea. Maybe they didn’t want to rock the boat; or risk their own position; or ‘threaten’ the ministry. But unless we admit that these are false and dangerous reasons to overlook troubling realities, the abuse will continue in these institutions. When we see Truth knocked down and bleeding in the street, we have a choice to make – will we risk becoming a victim ourselves, and go to her aid, or will we pretend we don’t recognize her?

– Truthseeker00, not Truthseeker

Jack: Can you get a refund when you find out the salvation you were sold was dud set of goods.

No, you can’t (after all, who’s going to pay it!?). The best [generic] you can do is diligently sift the destructive elements of religion from your life, deal with the temptation to react instead of acting, and set about being the best person you can be in the knowledge that “your own strength” is the only strength you ever had in the first place.

I realise you were asking rhetorically, and that there was nothing in the previous paragraph you haven’t processed long ago, but sometimes it’s useful to write stuff down…

Truthseeker00,

Isn’t that what they did with Madoff?

Nick Bulbeck:  I’m never going to claim “God told me” to do bad stuff

But are you going to
1. Give them up
2. Let them down
3. Run around and
4. Desert them.
5. Make them cry
7. Say goodbye
8. Tell a lie…etc.

Hmm?

Tom Devries describes how the Global Leadership Summit is a source of training for leadership to those who have been harassed and hurting.

This is as tone deaf as Chris Conlee stating on the day that Andy Savage confessed to sexual assault – that Highpoint would begin a ministry for women impacted by sexual sin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOnIqYgZuBk

Melly: The difference with these “mega churches” vs. established old line religions (Catholic, Baptist, etc.) is they are easier to clean up.

I don’t know. It’s easier to just scrap the whole church and start again…like a cult maybe. But then the next one starts, and it has whatever problems come from its leader too.

But if Willow has a bunch of member churches, ala sovereign grace, then the entire DNA of the institution may be tainted. So I’m not sure I’d agree.

I said before I think starting a giant church based on one mans charisma is generally a bad idea and I haven’t seen anything that changes my mind on that.

Truthseeker00: That is actually the best idea I’ve heard yet! This institution should be shut down for fraud, and all the people with receipts for giving should make claims for refunds. That is about the only way we are going to put these abusive institutions out of business.

My family has our names in the time capsule they buried for Chapter 2 supporters. I want it dug up and our names expunged.

Off topic, sorta. If you guys have not seen “The Women’s Balcony”, I highly recommend it. It reminded me of the Calvinist takeovers of churches —from a Jewish perspective, of course. It is a great example of how people go through the “respecting the new pastor process” but it ends better than what many of us have experienced. It’s delightful. It’s on Netflix.

Disciple: My family has our names in the time capsule they buried for Chapter 2 supporters. I want it dug up and our names expunged.

“Chapter 2”?

Law Prof,

Lol! I got a big chuckle out of that Freudian typo.

Law Prof,

“Why do we put up with it?”

Well, like you, I had to go through quite a process to deal with that period of my life which, thankfully, wasn’t that long but still quite detrimental to us. I wasn’t even raised like that! My parents were never the type that gave their adult children unsolicited advice so when my mom was on her deathbed and told me that most churches were really a mission field, it kind of blew my mind as I thought about months after she died.

Headless Unicorn Guy,

Chapter 2 was the ‘next’ chapter in WCCC. The first being the creation of the campus in South Barrington, Il. Chapter 2 was adding a new auditorium and other buildings to the campus to allow even more ‘seekers’ anonymous access to Christianity and also support satellite churches in the Chicago area, aka a capital fund drive.

Here’s the first thing I could find on it
http://www.willowcreek.com/wca_service.asp?servid=374

elastigirl: sort of reminds me of health care. pondering how in the world did a physician+human with health problem become the gargantuan trillion dollar machine?

That’s an easy one. Cuz’ the for profit health-care industry is just that; profitable, and it’s fiduciary responsibility is to the share-holders, not the patients.

Law Prof,

“whereas you sound like you’re just trying to love Jesus and others.”
++++++++++++++

just wanting to be productive and a good citizen with what i have and know. nothing more.

don’t give a flying fick about ‘the glory of God’. (no one knows what in the world it is, anyway)

whatever it is, just as the sun shines because it is, God ‘glories’ because God is. as if anything i/we could do or not do would make it more or less so.

Lydia,

You’re as dyed in the wool libertarian as I am socialist (FDR style, not Marx-Lenin style).
And yet through it all, we still find common ground.
L’CHAIM!

Lydia: No one in that world would listen to a nobody

This right here is one thing that really sticks out about all of these situations. No one will listen to a nobody. Many if not most will not listen to a woman against a man. Both of things contribute in large ways to the problem and I don’t see us any closer to fixing them.

DD:
Headless Unicorn Guy,

Chapter 2 was the ‘next’ chapter in WCCC. The first being the creation of the campus in South Barrington, Il. Chapter 2 was adding a new auditorium and other buildings to the campus to allow even more ‘seekers’ anonymous access to Christianity and also support satellite churches in the Chicago area, aka a capital fund drive.

Here’s the first thing I could find on it
http://www.willowcreek.com/wca_service.asp?servid=374

That is correct. They requested sacrificial giving and pledges. Hybels had many group meetings at his home to ‘paint the vision.’ Only ‘selected’ people were invited. I stowed away with a staff member. It was like a papal visit.

Muff Potter,

yeah…. well, it wasn’t like that on Little House On The Prairie. Doc Baker came to you, or you came to him, that was that. none of the middle people.

wondering about the societal/social/economic/historical things which prompted all the changes.

i could easily find this out myself. just thinking out loud, puffing frustration.

John 8:7 (KJV)
“So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.”

My humble 2 cents: Many solid comments in this thread. Do think, however, the ‘judgmental without proof’ on some may tip the opposite way from what Jesus was thinking in the verse above. Obviously, the number of brave people revealing their experiences creates certainty. The subtle sin trap, though, may be too quick to judge, haughtiness, and not acting on my own failures.

After reading almost every word written about Willow Creek mess, what is settling in with me is a need to refresh myself, and to know better God’s grace given to me. Jesus died because of Willow Creek’s and my sin. He lives and his goodness power rules.

DD,

It’s a huge betrayal and frankly, I am surprised it came to light knowing what I know about mega cultures from years ago. I did note early on in the scandal that well heeled/fairly well known leaders in those circles, ‘who had left WC’, spoke up and other people, ‘outside WC’, listened and it went public. Hmmm.

I attended Willow Creek Church a couple of times in 1979, when services were still being held at the Willow Creek Theater in Palatine, Illinois (a suburb of Chicago). I was blown away by the slick production. Never before at a conventional church had I seen lyrics projected upon the wall or heard a talented band sing modern praise music. My most vivid memory of Willow Creek is the tear-filled sermon of Bill Hybels, who referred to God healing problems in his marriage.

I also remember my disgust during the extra-marital antics of Bill Clinton, when Hybels urged Americans to forgive him. Now I am saddened but not really surprised that Hybels is revealed to engage in the same type of sordid behavior.

DD:
You raise a lot of thoughts to unpack here and I really should be working but this is in some ways helpful to me. A lot of my comments fall under the hindsight is 20/20 category. FWIW, I became disillusioned with WCCC 2,3,4 years ago and mentally had checked out. I went for a couple of reasons, to support my family and ‘keep an eye on things’. I think the spirit had put the thought in me that something was wrong but I had no idea what.

“what in the world would make you think that was a guy who’d model Christ in any meaningful way?”
Part of the way WCCC worked was small groups. So you didn’t really interact directly with most of the people who worked there. You had a small group that maybe had 1 employee in it. You would look more to the people in your group for being Christ-like than the people on the stage. And again, on stage personas don’t give you the full picture so it was more like looking at a picture of the guy not the real thing. That’s the best I say about this right now without unpacking it more.

“Humility is kind of the key thing, the big thing, with leaders”
Totally agree. IMO he showed enough of the humility in front of the congregation that the ego rumors remained just that, rumors / gossip, and that can be identified as sin in others. In other words deflection.

“Why would you want to spend two seconds listening to such a person?” “But why do people stay and listen?”
Simple – charisma. The guy is loaded with it. It’s a powerful thing. I wasn’t sold on it at first, I was agnostic / atheist first time I heard him and recognized what it was then. Long story short, I accepted it as part of a family package, the benefits outweighed the bad parts. And that’s why I put it up with. And it wasn’t always him on stage. There were other teaching pastors, many which where amazing, and guest speakers. Finally and honestly, I didn’t see this coming, I thought, if anything, it would be something else, like embezzlement.

FWIW there is a lot of good going on and good people that attend / work at WCCC. That in no ways excuses what happened, it is just truth.

I believe you. There always seem to be some decent people in ugly places. And remember, I was in your boat. Heck, I was in worse delusional shape, I’d personally seen pastor act like a monster behind closed doors, it wasn’t even a rumor, it was stark reality in my face—and yet, there I was bringing my family back each week, two times a week, sometimes three. My kids, whom I was supposed to protect. Insane!

By the way, for all you know there was a whole lot of embezzlement—and even if there wasn’t, it’s only a technicality, as any pastor drawing the unconscionable kind of salaries that Hybels and Morris, Osteen and Franklin Graham draw, is committing embezzlement at heart, they’re just surrounded themselves with enough “yes” men that they can under the thing guise of church rules to take more wrongful gain from the parishioners than nine out of ten embezzlers ever take.

I attended Willow Creek Church a couple of times in 1979, when services were still being held at the Willow Creek Theater in Palatine, Illinois (a suburb of Chicago). I was blown away by the slick production. Never before at a conventional church had I seen lyrics projected upon the wall or heard a talented band sing modern praise music. My most vivid memory of Willow Creek is the tear-filled sermon of Bill Hybels, who referred to God healing problems in his marriage.

I also remember my disgust during the extra-marital antics of Bill Clinton, when Hybels urged Americans to forgive him. Now I am saddened but not really surprised that Hybels is revealed to engage in the same type of sordid behavior.

I want to know what’s in those thousands of emails between Bill and the woman who retracted…forensics now can tell us everything!

Law Prof: Why do we put up with it?

The problem with deception is that we don’t know we are deceived because we are deceived.

I have no direct connection with WCCC. I feel that even if the elders resign, the air is not clear because BH kept his mouth shut. If there is no objective investigation to follow with new leaders, the heart of the matter still be boiled down to “who do you trust?” BH or the brave women? I sense deep division coming if the abusive allegations are not resolved and bring to a close (whether BH publicly admit his sin or not).

Melly: a good cleansing is needed during this season

Actually, most of the American church could do with a good cleansing. But I have a feeling that ain’t going to happen until desperate times set in. Folks don’t pray as they ought in good times, folks don’t repent as they ought in good times, folks don’t seek God’s face as they ought in good times. The American church needs an outbreak of 2 Chronicles 7:14 to put it back on track.

Lea: a giant church based on one mans charisma is generally a bad idea

Schuller, Driscoll, Hybels, etc.

ishy,

Praise God, Ishy!!

Max,

That sounds like a Yogi Berra truism!!

Max: Schuller, Driscoll, Hybels, etc.

I feel like we are looking at: “Why Nations Fail: The Origins of Power, Prosperity, and Poverty”, by D. Acemoglu, MIT, and J.A. Robinson, U. of Chicago.

Failed States:
– PTL, Bakker
– Crystal Cathedral, Schuller
– Mars Hill, Driscoll
– Willow, Hybels
– Calvary Chapel, Smith
– JS Televangelism, Swaggart
– TBN, Crouch
– 700 Club, Robertson
– Miracle Crusades, Benny Hinn
– New Life, Haggard

There may be a glitch in combining the free reign and co-mingling of religion-as-a-business with capitalism in a free market friendly society. As the business grows, the values are lost, and the leaders get caught in some fairly gnarly stuff. Just wondering, how good intentions fail, in church. There’s got to be a common thread in there somewhere.

As least we also have a free press.

Law Prof: as any pastor drawing the unconscionable kind of salaries that Hybels and Morris, Osteen and Franklin Graham draw, is committing embezzlement at heart, they’re just surrounded themselves with enough “yes” men that they can under the thing guise of church rules to take more wrongful gain from the parishioners than nine out of ten embezzlers ever take.

So agree!

Lydia,

And imagine what we could do and accomplish with compromise and consensus.

Donna O’Scolaigh Lange,

Love your work Donna!
Especially We are Stardust…

Makes me wanna’ continue the call and response lyrical segue into:

Billion year old carbon.

We are golden…

Caught in the devil’s bargain

And we’ve got to get ourselves back to the garden…

(with apologies to Joni Mitchell)

Max: The problem with deception is that we don’t know we are deceived because we are deceived.

Perhaps there’s a correlation with the foreign gods and idols that the Israelites always fell for in the OT. Human nature. False gods.

Always thought Israel was so dang ignorant to be fascinated with shiny things, but here we are in the 21st century emptying our wallets and applauding in service to our brilliant narcissistic celebrated leaders.

Nick Bulbeck,

I’m glad to hear it rained.

Estelle

Well, they certainly need the rain down there.

Law Prof: By the way, for all you know there was a whole lot of embezzlement—and even if there wasn’t, it’s only a technicality, as any pastor drawing the unconscionable kind of salaries that Hybels and Morris, Osteen and Franklin Graham draw, is committing embezzlement at heart

Indeed. And they use their work product [sermons] to write books that make them rich. And they use church staff to research, to cater to them, and in Hybel’s case, to abuse and use.

Thank you, Dee, for mentioning what Strobel did. My mother would say, “Shame on him.” I say, “Brava, Dee.”

jyjames: https://timfall.com/2015/09/21/the-conference-every-mega-church-pastor-should-attend/

I keep waiting for a church leadership conference where mega-church pastors sign up to listen to small church pastors tell them how 99% of the church does it.” (Tim Fall)

Now, that’s a revolutionary thought! For example, the Southern Baptist Convention has 45,000+ member churches … 90% have congregations less than 250 people. Yet, the big-boys are always getting voted on for key SBC positions. It would do them well to sit at the feet of small church pastors who are serving the Lord in obscurity … but faithfully. Being mini rather than mega doesn’t always mean that a church is more spiritual … but it helps, since less flesh is in the way. However, the problem with what Fall is recommending is that mega-church pastors carry too much pride and ego to humble themselves to hear from God through someone “smaller” than them.

ishy:
I just wanted to let everyone know I’m out of the hospital and doing a lot better. Thanks for all your prayers.

I’m so glad to hear it!

elastigirl: –many christians are so fixated on the bible as inspired and infallible that they only have a literal understanding of the english words they read. sometimes they just read and say the words minus the understanding. they don’t know what to do with circumstances and conduct that isn’t clearly spelled out.

People in churches are happy to judge in all sorts of situations, they only pull this stuff out when it threatens someone they like. The fact is, if you just pull out a random bible verse to support position A, odds are there is also a random bible verse to support position B. We’re supposed to be smart enough to put it together and apply it in real life in a sensible way.

Lea,

My understanding is they pay for it either in a subscription or buying the materials WCA offers.

drstevej,

With apologies for my ignorance,are you the same DrJ1952 who authored the article at https://drj1952.wordpress.com/2018/08/09/whitewashed-tombs/ ?

Among the many things that my wife and I discussed regarding the (changing) elder board at WCCC was the that observation that there wasn’t anyone that appeared to have any experience as a church leader. No one with a theological or ministry background; just successful attorneys/business people and homemakers. Also, most were middle-aged.

Diversity of representation and experience is good in a leadership board and having successful business leaders and homemakers is fine, but we wondered where was that person who from his/her life and ministry experience could ask hard questions, like “Are we veering offtrack from being a church to becoming a non-profit charitable organization? Are we responding to this situation as a church or an institution?” Etc. (In all likelihood that voice would not have been particularly welcome.)

We hope and pray that Willow will address this when assembling the new elder board.

Nick Bulbeck: No, you can’t (after all, who’s going to pay it!?). The best [generic] you can do is diligently sift the destructive elements of religion from your life, deal with the temptation to react instead of acting, and set about being the best person you can be in the knowledge that “your own strength” is the only strength you ever had in the first place

I completely agree.

I’ve never had God speak to me in any literal sense. Even when I was Christian I’ve never claimed to known his mind or his plan or anything like that. I gave up trying to figure it out a long time ago, just spinning tires for no purpose. If there is a divine plan and I’m supposed to be in on it then there’s many ways to get hold of me.

But many who have claimed to know what God wants and even claim that God has told them what he wants then proceed to pull crud like Hybels, or abuse kids, or rub feet or whatever.

I can tell you, if God did literally speak to me, I’d probably living on the straight an narrow as much as any human could.

So, I do not believe anyone who tells me that God has 5 purposes for me, or that I have give 10% of my income to their tax free social club, or that I have to sign a contract or that I have wear a dress and look like a “Little House on Prairie” extra.

Ok…I’ll wear the dress…but that’s it. Am I saved yet?

Thomas055: No one with a theological or ministry background; just successful attorneys/business people and homemakers. Also, most were middle-aged.

Is this odd? In my experience, most elders are lay people (with the pastor being a non-voting member generally). They can call in experts to talk about any specific issue and the pastors are generally there.

elastigirl,

How better to honor, ( bring glory to) anyone living or deceased, than by keeping their last wishes/ request.

If you love me, keep my commandments……..

Thomas055,

“we wondered where was that person who from his/her life and ministry experience could ask hard questions, like “Are we veering offtrack from being a church to becoming a non-profit charitable organization? Are we responding to this situation as a church or an institution?””
++++++++++++++++++++++++

or, “are we getting weird?”

Jack: Ok…I’ll wear the dress…but that’s it. Am I saved yet?

Well, weAreAllSinners, and thereAreNoPerfectChristians, but I think you’re doing what really counts, so yes, you probably are!

Slight tangent, but after 30 years living in Scotland (and calling myself Anglo-Scottish) I’ve still yet to wear a kilt. I should probably do something about that.

Benn: If you love me, keep my commandments……..

And we all know just how God summed them up for us!!

“Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”

Max: For a $299 annual fee, a WCA member church has “access to discounts on Willow Creek Resources and conferences, as well as a magazine, an audio journal, several web-based ministry tools, and a variety of Select Service Providers. Select Service Providers are ministries and organizations that provide products and services to member churches for a discounted price.” (Wikipedia)

And the carnival barker shouts across the midway “Hurry, Hurry, Hurry!”

“WELCOME BACK MY FRIENDS
TO THE SHOW THAT NEVER ENDS!
WE’RE SO GLAD YOU COULD ATTEND!
COME INSODE! COME INSIDE!”
— Emerson Lake & Palmer, “Karn Evil Nine”

Truthseeker00,

And we have a tendency to trust such people for many reasons. We also may subconsciously get a sense of the unwritten rules from the group so we don’t question even minor red flags. We don’t want to appear critical over something no one else is question By that time, we are invested.

Perfect recipe for Thought Reform

Nick Bulbeck: Well, weAreAllSinners, and thereAreNoPerfectChristians, but I think you’re doing what really counts, so yes, you probably are!

Slight tangent, but after 30 years living in Scotland (and calling myself Anglo-Scottish) I’ve still yet to wear a kilt. I should probably do something about that.

Go for it! And as the saying goes… Pictures, or it didn’t happen! 😉

Nick Bulbeck,

What happened to my avatar fotie???

#SadFace

Max: A pathological narcissist.The elder board was controlled, manipulated, and intimidated by him.We will hear their stories in the days ahead.

Assuming Hybels doesn’t still have a hold in their heads.

The key to a successful swindle is to the the Marks/Mugus so emotionally involved to where they CAN’T back out, because backing out means having to admit to themselves (and everyone else) that they got taken. Once this dynamic is in play, the Marks/Mugus will fanatically defend the con man and the con even as they are taken to the cleaners.

Then there’s the “Made Man” trope at work in the Inner Ring. In the Mafia, you weren’t “in” until you had done a murder (no statute of limitations). In Gadhafi’s Libya, you weren’t
“in” until you had killed a family member on the order of Colonel Leader. (In a culture where Family and Clan were all-important.) If they’ve been complicit, they cannot distance themselves from The Great Man — no escape route, nowhere to go. Rise with the Inner Ring and Leader, fall with the Leader.

Lea,

yes, that’s true. no more judgemental place than church. it’ a minefield.

never again.

joe and joanne christian tend to pull out the “no judging” card when something they care about and have a vested interest in is in jeopardy (their church social club, their church building, the church institution). when someone they like is in jeopardy because of the choices made.

i’d like to see joe and joanne christian care about not judging people who’s sexuality differs from their own.

Thomas055: Yes, in my experience that has been true and works just fine. But most churches don’t have a staff of 400 people either. (Neither do most businesses in the U.S.). At that size there is inherently a “corporate” orientation at some level. So it seems to me to be the opposite of most churches like the ones above that have 250 members.

My church is somewhere in between the two, as I suspect most are 🙂 I’m not sure that ‘staff of 400′ isn’t a problem in and of itself, however paid elders who make all the decisions is it’s own church model imo. I’m not convinced its’ the best.

Thomas055: In a setting like WCCC, where there is such a large institutional/corporate structure, it would seem wise to include some elders who would help to ensure that the church retains its spritual foundation and orientation.

I mean, it just depends on what the elders role actually is. You would hope people selected as elders would have a deep background in church and lay or not, most probably do. If your so called spiritual elders are of the Bill Hybels variety I’m not really sure how much that’s going to help…

Max,

Same here, I always wondered why he did that. Was Hybels concerned that people might think church was actually about worshipping God? Feels like Hybels didn’t want anyone taking the spotlight away from himself.

I have a feeling that there’s a lot more details on Hybels that haven’t surfaced yet.

Lydia: canned sermon

Schuller trained Hybels well. In the end, both of their empires collapsed.

Sorry… Lea

jyjames: Throckmorton here peels away and reveals from today’s Opener at the GLS the yet-in-place-at-Willow presumptuousness:

“In other words, the world can’t go on without the GLS.
“IMAGINE A WORLD WITHOUT”

Paging John Lennon…
Paging John Lennon…

Truthseeker00: … I can’t sleep at night, thinking about the long train of people who have left the church, one by one, hurt, troubled and sometimes angry at God. Don’t I know I shouldn’t worry my silly little head about it, because ‘the boys’ (elders) are handling it?

Anything an instituted authority does is glorious in his own eyes. Should God himself defy them, they would condemn him.

We want people to believe that “God is good”; it’s very hard to worship a Deity that you suspect might actually be evil.

I’ve become persuaded that if we want people to believe that God is good, it will often happen that it is necessary for us to exert ourselves to actually BE the goodness of God toward them. That might be a valid (if off the beaten path) interpretation of Jesus’ saying in Mt 5:16

But if it is necessary at times (and is perhaps part of what it means to be called to follow Jesus) for us to “instantiate” God’s goodness toward sufferers, it’s also possible that the way we treat people can provide evidence to them that “God is not good.”

Woe to any church leader who does that, and woe upon woe to any church that institutionalizes that as policy. Under the sun forms of God’s wrath will overtake such groups eventually. That’s a lesson that the churches could learn from David’s story in 2 Samuel 11 onward. That this lesson seems to not be embraced by many of these prominent leaders stimulates doubt in my mind that there is in them either fear of God or concern about people.

elastigirl,

I appreciate your rambling. I’m sorta at a point where I’m trying really hard to believe that doing the right thing is enough. I can’t really foresee happiness meandering my way again. Would love to hope . . .

Thomas055: https://drj1952.wordpress.com/2018/08/09/whitewashed-tombs/

From the drj1952 blog post, about WCC & WCA:

“It is like a family that sets no limits with a bully child and then the child acts out against a class mate. When I see that as a psychologist, I understand it as a system problem with systemic culpability. The leadership of the WCA has sinned as well, by knowing the entitled behavior of Bill and allowing it to continue to its logical end of hurting people.”

Isn’t this at the core: the entitled child bully leader enabled and free to roam and act out? (Savage, Chantry, etc.) Leaving a trail of damage in their wake while enabled by a system?

Truthseeker00: The system is the problem.

Agree. If nothing else, WCC/WCA is a lesson (along with others: PTL, TBN, etc.).

Saw this about someone swindled while dating their dreamboat: Charm is overrated, as well as wealth and image. Keep an eye on your own values as you date your “dream” who may turn out to be your nightmare.

The same could be applied to “courting” a church fellowship. Warnings from Proverbs 23:

“When you sit down to dine with a leader, consider carefully what is before you, and put a knife to your throat if you are a person of great appetite. Do not desire his delicacies, for it is deceptive food.

“Do not weary yourself to gain wealth, cease from your consideration of it. When you set your eyes on it, it is gone. For wealth certainly makes itself wings like an eagle that flies toward the heavens.

“Do not eat the bread of a selfish man, or desire his delicacies; For as he thinks within himself, so he is. He says to you, ‘Eat and drink! but his heart is not with you. You will vomit up the morsel you have eaten, and waste your compliments.”

Lydia: jyjames,
What I find most troubling is we PAY them to deceive us. It’s uncanny. We paid young punks to takeover our churches. We pay insulated rock stars to be “servant/leaders” (Wink). We pay for layers of denominational bureaucracies we have no clue about. It’s really quite ingenious. Why?

Comrade Lenin got a kick out of making the Capitalists finance their own destruction…

Truthseeker00,

i hope for happiness for you.

elastigirl,

Thank you.

Headless Unicorn Guy,

A lot of danger to such oligha in allowing people freedom and choice. Power comes from making them dependent and regulating them to death so the “experts” who know best for us can control our choices.

elastigirl,

“so, vocally and publicly standing up for what is right, honest, and true is judging and haughtiness? and since we’ve failed we have no business standing up for what is right, etc?”

The problem is people differ on what is right, honest and true. The good news is church is voluntary so you don’t have to put up with the disagreement on such. We can debate these things in the public square if we are brave enough to defy the thought police new Puritans, thank God!

We all judge and I am sure it seems “haughty” to those who happen to disagree with our judgements. I don’t want government regulating or thought policing churches as I have the option to leave to go elsewhere. It’s when my options to have differing views are taken away that chill me.

Lydia: elastigirl,

“so, vocally and publicly standing up for what is right, honest, and true is judging and haughtiness? and since we’ve failed we have no business standing up for what is right, etc?”

The problem is people differ on what is right, honest and true. The good news is church is voluntary so you don’t have to put up with the disagreement on such. We can debate these things in the public square if we are brave enough to defy the thought police new Puritans, thank God!

We all judge and I am sure it seems “haughty” to those who happen to disagree with our judgements. I don’t want government regulating or thought policing churches as I have the option to leave to go elsewhere. It’s when my options to have differing views are taken away that chill me.

Amen to that! May I quote you to my spouse, who still cannot fathom why I believe our former church was a cult? When a person cannot have his or her own opinions, cannot challenge what appears to be illogical or untrue or cannot seek open and respectful debate on ANY issue, the institution is a cult, whether it is called a church, America or anything else.

I am thankful to have this open forum where many can share genuine concerns about what’s happening in the family of God. It’s one of the ways to make accountability work without malice or mind control. There is no doubt that unhealthy things exist that hurt the church family, and such factors need to be diagnosed spiritually so proper remedies can be applied. When a group is called a church, or when a person is called a pastor/elder/leader, it’s even more critical that they operate in the Light based on the Life of the Son of God. We are not helping anyone if we keep hiding things in the shadows or worse yet, in total darkness.

On a side note, WCC still needs more prayers so the repenting process will not be cheapened or shortened. WCA needs prayers for sure since they keep calling the sins of the leaders “missteps, mistakes” etc. as if these were external procedural issues only. These are indeed character and spiritual issues that need internal surgery and detoxification. To bypass God’s purification process is to pass on the germs/virus to all who participate in the WCA and the Global Christian leaders. A serious matter indeed!

Perhaps we can also pray for the GLS attendees so they can be weaned from such milk? Even Elijah only served His purpose for a season. No one should be our permanent help on earth but Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Thank you for letting me share these thoughts.

Lydia,

thank you, lydia.

care to take a stab at ‘what is God’s glory?’

Are there two “Truthseeker”s commenting on TWW?

elastigirl: care to take a stab at ‘what is God’s glory?’

I think it’s a purely subjective thing.

When I travel far down into Baja, where my old flip-phone says No Service and the star fields at night are so densely arrayed that you (generic you) can hardly pick out the big and little bears; that to me is Glory.

And when I consider that it was Jesus himself who wove the whole fabric together as master craftsman and magician (Book of Colossians), what’s not to glory?

But on the other hand, the concept of ‘glory’ can get abused (my opinion) in christianese circles. You (generic you) cannot accept any credit or any accolades for the good stuff you do. All credit and hence ‘glory’, must go to God.

As a father and grandfather who delights in the good stuff my kids do, I have no need to bask in or commandeer their own strengths. They are there own glories.

But that still doesn’t answer your original query ‘what is God’s glory?’.
I’m at a loss there elastigirl, I don’t there is a hard and fast rigorous definition.

elastigirl,

Bwahahaha! You are relentless! Years ago I did a quick cursory look around the Old Testament about that but I can’t remember much except for the fact I Thought the YRR were overdoing it out of context. And the computer I used to store the notes for that is in the computer graveyard.

my preferred rules of the game is to read everything within its historical context to get a bigger picture with applications*. Then there is what is written about God in the flesh that rarely mapped to their usage of “Glorifying God”. It was just one of the many Clues that led me to having a huge problem with ESS.

(We aren’t following a cloud through the desert….kind of thing. )

I think one reason it’s real popular to say in certain circles is because it’s in a lot of Reformed Catechism’s. (Is that the plural?)

I think you get extra points for telling people. 🙂

Lydia,

extra points for telling people they’re only repeating language they’ve been programmed to when someone presses the button? and when they press their own button themselves?

what fun!

Max: Are there two “Truthseeker”s commenting on TWW?

Alas, yes; until I can figure out how to change my moniker on all my devices! Might just try for 00

elastigirl: Lydia,

extra points for telling people they’re only repeating language they’ve been programmed to when someone presses the button? and when they press their own button themselves?

what fun!

Honest to God I just said that (okay, words to that affect) to my spouse yesterday when the usual regurgitated lines spewed forth at the appropriate place. I even mimed ‘pushing the button’! There is no ‘discussion’ with a brainwashed Reformed believer, simply recitation of their memorized script. They can’t help it; they were forced to turn off their minds and submit to the authority of the elders. But don’t worry, it’s ‘safe’. 😉

Truthseeker00,

extra points for you!

Truthseeker00,

Yes you can request a refund on any and all charitable contributions to Willow Creek.

Jim G.,

hey! all kinds of feedback today! wow.

i really like that: “The Glory of God is man fully alive.”

it’s not obvious to me that it is applicable to Jesus first. did Irenaeus clarify that?

if it’s only applicable to us in the resurrection, it’s a pretty useless term.

i don’t believe that Jesus’ resurrection impacts us only in the hereafter. there are very practical things here and now. our lives here and now matter, to God as much as to us. glory, whatever it is, has to have something to do with life now.

elastigirl: yes, my thinking is coming together in that there is no hard and fast definition for “God’s glory”.

I think you are right. I used to think there had to be one correct definition for all of these things, but just opening my eyes to the variety around me made me reconsider. Unless the 99.9% plus of the world who don’t see things like me are hopelessly wrong, then there have to be multiple ways to look at all sorts of things.

There is a quote by St. Irenaeus, “ The glory of God is man fully alive.” As I read this quote, I think that he is saying that since God is the creator, his glory is the creation being absolutely itself.

I’ve spent a lot of time reading and listening to the Trinitarian group of theologians. There are a whole group of people like Baxter Kruger who studied with JB and TF Torrance in Scotland who have a unique outlook that I have found interesting. They seem to think of glory as something being completely itself. So, your glory as a person is being whatever makes you uniquely you. Along this line of thinking, God’s glory is every person living out of their true self, as Brennan Manning would say, and becoming mature in that truth.

I think that what we truly believe isn’t what we say we believe, but what we embody or act out. What we incarnate, to use Christian language. I’m trying to live out this belief of God’s glory. I’ll let you know how it goes…

Ricco,

“They seem to think of glory as something being completely itself. So, your glory as a person is being whatever makes you uniquely you. Along this line of thinking, God’s glory is every person living out of their true self, as Brennan Manning would say, and becoming mature in that truth.”
+++++++++++++++++++++

this is my lucky day!

i really like this. living my true self, and maturing into my true self. i mean, God is always God’s true self — why not us?

i think i’ll just dispense with “give God glory”, “glorify God”, and doing something “for God’s glory”. the statements seem so meaningless. and they sure sound so silly but only because they are usually accompanied by a head tilted slightly up and at an angle, with a far away in look in the eye.

pretentious poopooheads

(going with whatever words pop into my mind — i’ve got angst and frustration to burn — been on hold for 2 1/2 hours with an airline which cancelled relatives’ international flight who need to be home tomorrow)

such a great maxim — living one’s true self and maturing into it more and more. (john piper’s going to hate the result, i can tell you that! with pleasure)

let’s all do it — and report back.

Just noting that there is a lot of interesting information on Vonda Dyer’s facebook page, with many former staffers commenting concerning NDA’s, Bill’s gestapo, The Elder Response team and much more. Then there is the former staffer that states that Hybels was ‘Ivan the Terrible’. This stuff needs to come out into the open.

“The glory of God is man fully alive”

I love that, too. It reasonates with something NT Wright talked about that articulated a conclusion I had come to but couldn’t explain well. He said something to the effect of, ‘the more evil we are/do, the less human we are’ (and visa versa with good)

This goes back to creation, IMO . What we were created “as” and that being human was meant to be good. So ‘being fully alive’ seems to follow that thinking. It’s a far cry from the typical Christian thinking that we can’t help but do wrong/evil all the time as if we have no choice. (And it’s not about being perfect, either!)
Jim G.,

Truthseeker00: It is simply doublespeak for ‘The end justifies the means’.

If it can be claimed to bring God glory, then, whatever it is, who can deride it? Rape, murder, nuclear bombs – hey, it’s all for the ‘glory of God’, so it’s all good. Bring it on, more ‘glory’! It is simply a trigger word, that allows miscreants to abuse others.

Didn’t Piper describe The Glory of God as a tower coming down while a guest in Dubai? He made a video of it standing in front of the tower—then later deleted it.

Truthseeker00: Max: Are you the long-time TWW “Truthseeker” or recent addition to the family?

I don’t know if I qualify as ‘long-time’, but I have been commenting (probably too much!) for quite a few months, and lurking much longer. Just noticed the other Truthseeker somewhat recently. The first time, I was like, ‘Whoa, when did I say that?’ Then I realized it wasn’t me! Just got all my devices synced so I don’t have to try and remember my password, but may try to change my moniker. Any suggestions?

Just wanted to let you know that I am now posting as TS00 instead of Truthseeker00. Too much confusion.

birdoftheair,

And these are excellent thoughts.

“WCA needs prayers for sure since
they keep calling the sins of the leaders “missteps, mistakes” etc.
as if these were external procedural issues only.
These are indeed character and spiritual issues
that need internal surgery and detoxification.
To bypass God’s purification process
is to pass on the germs/virus to all who participate
in the WCA and the Global Christian leaders.
A serious matter indeed!

Perhaps we can also pray for the GLS attendees
so they can be weaned from such milk?
Even Elijah only served His purpose for a season.
No one should be our permanent help on earth
but Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit.”

“Thank you for letting me share these thoughts.”

Just fyi, it now appears that Bill Hybels’ Official Website and Twitter account have both been taken down.

http://billhybels.com/

https://twitter.com/billhybels

elastigirl: gimme some of that glory, considering that the tiny pin prick twinkle in the night sky that i can see from my kitchen window (& which can see me) is the only one that shines through.

According to Psalm 8, you’ve already been crowned with glory and honour.
So the next time somebody tries to skewer your guts with how you can never be ‘good enough’ for God and can never accept any accolade for the good stuff you do, parry the thrust with Psalm 8.

Lydia: I have become suspicious that the sub chapter in Daniel of Suzanna was left out of the OT on purpose! It refutes the 3 rule, too. And includes evil elders!

https://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/apo/sus001.htm

Thanks for this link. Left out on purpose – yes!

@ Lydia and jyjames:

Both Luther and Erasmus said that the apocrypha are good and profitable to read, and even the King James Bible of 1611 included them.
So how did they get removed?
Who and why?

Muff Potter,

I don’t know enough about it and would probably look to Ancients scholars first for info. It’s very confusing. I am not even sure that what we call the Apocrypha is agreed upon by all factions. Sounds like an interesting research project for someone with plenty of time!

The Westminster Confession says this

The books commonly called the Apocrypha . . . [are not] to be any otherwise approved, or made use of, than other human writings (Westminster Confession 1:3).

(Makes me want to read it more!) lol.

Lydia,

Here is a more geeky answer:
http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/otcanon.aspx

There are many competing theories among Christians on so many topics. It makes my head swim.

Lydia,

“The books commonly called the Apocrypha . . . [are not] to be any otherwise approved, or made use of, than other human writings (Westminster Confession 1:3).”
++++++++++++++

so, not unlike Oswald Chambers, John Piper, and all the other human writings pumped into people by the RightNow Media feeding tube, then.

i’ve known people who tout Oswald Chambers as their daily devotions — not the bible — and who, at the mention of “The Apocrypha”, would probably make the sign of the cross with 2 fingers and slowly walk backwards (careful…careful…), then run for their lives!!

Lydia: What’s the “RightNow” media?

Matt Chandler calls is the Christian version of Netflix. Here is what you get when you search for “arminianiam” – https://www.rightnowmedia.org/Search?q=arminianism. This will tell you almost everything you need to know. They have UMC resources, so they are not solely Calvinistic, but the vast majority of video there is from Calvinist sources. I don’t know if that is on purpose or just the result of New-Calvinists flooding the market.

Lydia: The Westminster Confession says this

The books commonly called the Apocrypha . . . [are not] to be any otherwise approved, or made use of, than other human writings (Westminster Confession 1:3).

(Makes me want to read it more!) lol.

I’m currently reading the Book of Enoch. Not included in the sacred canon, but interesting apocalyptic writing that has been in circulation for centuries.

elastigirl: Max,

“Well, for me, the glory of God has been the continued revelation of who Jesus is.”

thank you, max.

how would you apply that to doing something “for the glory of God”? or would you scrap that concept altogether?

Well, acting like a Christian in my interactions with folks is a starter! The more Jesus is revealed to me, the more I desire to make the invisible God visible to others by what I do and say and how I do it. I realize that my “doing” will not bring God any more glory than He already has, but perhaps it’s some small reflection back His way from my small spot on the planet.

Max,

…Rick Warren, Bob Buford and the elephant in the room, Peter DRUCKER!

elastigirl,

I did not understand your post on Oswald Chambers, John Piper and the RightNow media…Here I only wish to focus on O. Chambers’ teaching which I am more familiar with.

Regarding hyper-Calvinism, I have a problem with it. Ephesians 1:4 says God chose us “in Christ” before the foundation of the world. So the so-called predestination only makes sense if we know we are not chosen in any way outside of Christ. In Christ we can all be chosen according to John 3:16- ” …that whosoever believes in Him (God’s Son) will not perish, but have everlasting life.”

I have read Chambers’ material extensively, all of which points to the finished work of Jesus Christ on the Cross as our only path of redemption. OC devotional can not replace the Bible, but it helps people understand the Bible better in application to real life and the transformation of the soul.

No intention to start any debate regarding various preachers here. I am not too familiar with Piper’s preaching though I know he is famous. My post emphasizes the importance of a pure heart and humble spirit as we try to do this church thing. May the Cross be lifted up! Glory to the Lamb of God!

TS00,

https://esmartinonline.wordpress.com/2018/08/10/systemic-sexual-perversion-in-the-foundation-of-willow-creek-commmunity-church/

A blog post from two WC insiders: the writer, and an anonymous yet detailed testimony about assault by another founder.

TS00: How about explaining to the thousands of participants how a man, an icon of leadership championing, can participate and teach about leadership for so long when he violated almost every healthy element of being a good leader?

New acronym: GPLS for Global Predator Leadership Summit.

See https://esmartinonline.wordpress.com/ for the picture. Incomprehensible. Some of the predation was with young people and new hires, as there were ties to Wheaton.

It’s really difficult to fathom. In my youth, I was involved with Inter-Varsity, Campus Crusade, Navigators, YWAM, Urbana, studied at L’Abri, attended a Christian college, etc. Never, ever saw this type of behavior nor heard of such. There were tales of weird “Jesus People”-like cults but everyone seeking Jesus knew that inappropriate touch OR drug use – especially from/sanctioned by leadership, meant, “Stay away!”

Friends, what is wrong here? Did we throw out the baby with the bathwater – did we toss out
our values when we left tradition behind? We don’t need traditions, but values should be a deal-breaker – the core, a pillar.

Max: Bea: Bob Buford

It continues to amaze me that Buford and his “Leadership Network” has escaped attention in the blogosphere. Driscoll used to say that the Leadership Network essentially spawned the emergent church movement. I wonder if they influenced the New Calvinist movement as well?

I suspect that all of these big names dangle on the strings of the same puppet master.

@ Ken F (aka Tweed)

Good and very informative links by the way.

Gary Boswell,

The week after Hybels’ resignation, John Maxwell wrote a tweet advertising that he was happy to be in Hybels’ presence as they were en route to an African country to teach on leadership. #tonedeafchristianleaders

Bea,

Maxwell got rich selling a secular version of the Moses Model of leadership.

Ken F (aka Tweed),

Thanks. Have not heard of it.

Bea: Bob Buford and the elephant in the room, Peter DRUCKER

They were catalysts for the Church Growth Movement and major influencers of contemporary-church and mega-church … for better or worse. Warren, Driscoll, Keller and others consider them leadership mentors. The emergent church movement originated within their leadership network, mega method can be traced there, “contemporary” church was birthed under their influence.

Max: They were catalysts for the Church Growth Movement and major influencers of contemporary-church and mega-church … for better or worse. Warren, Driscoll, Keller and others consider them leadership mentors. The emergent church movement originated within their leadership network, mega method can be traced there, “contemporary” church was birthed under their influence.

And all of it is a ‘program for success’, a ‘How to Win Friends and Influence People’ for Jesus. They sold their souls to the Devil, and we are surprised when narcissism, deception and abuse arise within their ranks.

They took over The Church (if it wasn’t Satan’s organization all along). Now those who truly seek God and desire to do his will are going to have to look for another way. Or perhaps simply return to The Way, The Truth and The Life, minus all the hoopla.

TS00: return to The Way, The Truth and The Life, minus all the hoopla

I have a burden to see that happen in the American church.

Max,

–“Well, for me, the glory of God has been the continued revelation of who Jesus is.”

–“how would you apply that to doing something “for the glory of God”? or would you scrap that concept altogether?”

–“Well, acting like a Christian in my interactions with folks is a starter! The more Jesus is revealed to me, the more I desire to make the invisible God visible to others by what I do and say and how I do it. …but perhaps it’s some small reflection back His way from my small spot on the planet.”
+++++++++++++++++

so, kind of like letting some of the glowy gold light out yourself, wherever you are on the planet.

reminds me a bit of the movie “Cocoon”. love that movie.

Max: I have a burden to see that happen in the American church.

So, truly, do I, with the slight difference, perhaps, that I do not really expect the ‘institution’ to reform. I do not believe that most, if any, of the institutions of men serve God. For instance, I have little faith in the Institutions of men that are called Government, School, Science or Medicine. Not to step on any toes, for most of us live, work and/or put our trust in some or all of these Institutions. Let me say clearly, that within all of these institutions there function genuine, well-meaning people who love others and seek to help them. I truly believe this, while at the same time not trusting the structure or leadership of the Institutions themselves. Whenever an Institution becomes for profit – and nearly all are, even The supposedly non-profit Church – they have sold their soul to the devil.

There are countless men, women and children within this institution called the American Church who truly desire to please God, but have been misled and deceived into believing that ‘doing church’ is how one pleases God. They have been brainwashed into believing that the ‘worship’ God seeks has something to do with how we sing songs once a week. They have been deceived into thinking that ‘seeking understanding’ means sitting for 30 minutes once a week – maybe add in a bible study or a podcast or two. I consider it very unlikely that the Institutional Church will give up this deception.

I do not pretend to perceive the individual motives of individuals within the Institutional Church. I do not deny for a moment that there exist, within it, people with pure hearts and honest motivations to serve God. But once they begin to resist the voice of the Spirit; once they begin to ignore the red flags that warn them of something amiss, they are in danger of exchanging the truth for a lie, and becoming the hopelessly deceived and even reprobate of Romans 1. This can happen to a pastor, as well as each and every person in the pew. The American Church demonstrates what it looks like when this happens on a wide scale.

Max: Hmmm … perhaps there is a “deep state” in the American church which is manipulating it to the point that both pulpit and pew are under its control without realizing it. And whose work would that be?

Honestly, Max, that is exactly what I believe God has been ‘pushing’ me into seeing over the last handful of years. You can substitute whatever words are not Trigger words – because the enemy has created so many of those – but the unseen hand of the institutions of this world does not belong to God. Scripture warns us of this, but we continue to deny it. Much of this deception has occurred by positing ‘The Institutional Church’ as The Body of Christ, thus worthy of our trust and participation.

Try taking away ‘Church’ from the average ‘Christian’ and see how loudly they yell. It is all they know. Nor am I insensitive to how difficult and painful it is to have one’s eyes opened to these things. And lonely. Sometimes I feel like Jeremiah, and find myself asking God, ‘Why me? I’m no prophet. Why can’t you just leave me alone and let me be happy in my delusions, like my spouse?’ 😉 First you take away School, then Medicine, then Science, Business and lastly, heartbreakingly, Church. What is left when you give up on the Institutions of this world?

Simply God. And faith in Him alone. Maybe that’s what he really wants from us.

TS00,

‘his’ deception being Hybels’ deception

Max,

“Hmmm … perhaps there is a “deep state” in the American church which is manipulating it to the point that both pulpit and pew are under its control without realizing it. And whose work would that be?”
++++++++++++++++++++

“I was a part-time, topic producer for Janet Mefferd until yesterday when I resigned over this situation. All I can share is that there is an evangelical celebrity machine that is more powerful than anyone realizes. You may not go up against the machine. That is all.”–Ingrid Schlueter

i prefer to hold humans responsible for this, and not the devil.

https://www.wthrockmorton.com/2013/12/05/ingrid-schlueter-resigns-from-janet-mefferd-show-over-mark-driscoll-plagiarism-controversy/

elastigirl,

Absolutely. And if you have a significant other who buys into the program, and children whose friends and ‘world’ consist of buying into this program, are you going to upset the applecart and ruin everyone’s happiness because ‘you’ have a ‘problem with authority’?

Don’t get me wrong, these clever manipulators offer many enticing incentives as well. I do not consider myself free of responsibility, or too ‘pure’ to have had self interests at play. I happily jumped at the ‘guilt-free’ life; until I realized it meant ignoring my own conscience to the stultifying of my own soul.

elastigirl: i prefer to hold humans responsible for this, and not the devil

Yeah. That which comes against the work of God can be lumped into three categories according to Scripture: the world, the flesh, and the devil. The world and the flesh is doing such a good job on the organized church and its members that the devil doesn’t have to get involved. Of course, the devil influences the world and the flesh.

elastigirl,

Yeah, my sister and I can get into it over whether there even is a ‘devil’. I don’t know if it really matters? Whatever one designates as the source of evil, can we agree that we all make choices as to whether to serve our own interests, or will make personal sacrifices for the sake of others? IMO, evil exists when we put ourselves first, whatever the cost to others.

TS00: Honestly, Max, that is exactly what I believe God has been ‘pushing’ me into seeing over the last handful of years. You can substitute whatever words are not Trigger words – because the enemy has created so many of those – but the unseen hand of the institutions of this world does not belong to God. Scripture warns us of this, but we continue to deny it. Much of this deception has occurred by positing ‘The Institutional Church’ as The Body of Christ, thus worthy of our trust and participation.

Once you see it, you can’t un-see it. Once it’s in your knower, you can’t un-know it.

I put cross-less, seeker-friendly Willow Creek and its architect Bill Hybels in the counterfeit church from the get-go. New Calvinist efforts to subordinate Jesus puts them there as well.

elastigirl,

The Calvinist church could never stop talking about its ‘Regulative Principles of Worship’. Next church talked non-stop about the ‘worship wars’ it had undergone a few years before. Both seemed convinced that what they did in a building on Sunday morning was the full extent of what ‘worship’ means! I always wanted to stand up and shout – God does not give a damn what songs you sing on Sunday, or whether or not you have drums and a ‘praise team’!’ Needless to say, I resisted. But, seriously, I see worship as everytime I look to God as the creator of the universe and the source of goodness, truth and beauty. This happens when I look at the stars, or when I grudgingly give up my own wants to do something for someone else. (And I actually am very musically inclined, and love to sing to God; but increasingly find my own personal music time more meaningful that what happens at church. I do love it that the Anglican church I sometimes attend sings the old hymns in harmony!)

Okay, I’ll stop now.

TS00,

That is what is so ‘glorious’ about God (elastigirl!). He can use the most filthy rags, such as Willow Creek and people like me, and wring something good out of them! Now that’s what I call glory!

jyjames,

Sigh, sad. Looks like the name of the abuser came out today.

Muff Potter: Their hypocrisy is all the more blatant when they gush and swoon over the latest book from Piper, Mohler, MacArthur,… (whomever)

Apparently, Hybels gushed over mentor Dr. Gilbert Bilezikian and together they co-founded WCC. “Community.”

The Reformed crowd can’t stand the both of them. “Dr. B” has published in detail about incorporating women’s leadership and mutuality in the church.

It’s an odd mix. Supporting church leadership of women as an inroad to patriarchal (power-infused) side-chick shenanigans.

Two observations:

– Sandusky used his nonprofit of helping youth for access.

– Dr. B was born and raised in France. The French don’t like the guns and violence in the US, but they are highly tolerant of indiscretions in other areas. Real men, given the chance, act out with attractive women, naturally. (“Real men” in the US brandish guns?)

Max,

Can’t wait to hear. They were all hand picked by Hybels; for a time such as this i

Max: All but the New Calvinists who are trolling TWW. They believe that God is so sovereign that they don’t have a free will about anything … in their total depravity, they have a total inability to make choices.

Done watering, and taking refuge from the heat.

Don’t forget, they try to have their cake and eat it too. 😉 Even most New Calvinists (compatabilists) assert that God predetermines, ordains and controls every molecule of the universe AND man is personally responsible for his own ‘choices’. Hows that for a logical impossiblity that men like Piper, Mohler, et al. can affirm without even blushing at its absurdity? Ah, sweet ‘Mystery’, like fat, emaciated cats and loud mutes – with God, ‘all things are possible’! (How many extra points do I get for using two buzzword phrases in one sentence?)

DD,

The stories (8.10.2018, 8.13.2018) are disgusting. https://esmartinonline.wordpress.com/

WC’s version of egalitarian seems to be dirty old men letting loose their inappropriate proclivities on women who are supposed to trust them, title and role. Sort of a free-for-all for frisky men to play with women they have access to on a personal level because they are in the church fellowship community together. “Jump into the egalitarian soup with me, kiddo, and we’ll have fun playing with your parts and mine.”

What is lost on these men (therefore, in the enabling community) is that this behavior is never appropriate in any setting. It is highly disrespectful to women and exhibits extreme vulgarity of the men. No job, family, civic group would tolerate this.

These founders created their own brand of community (in the name of god) with their own set of stealth rules (bait and switch), that provides a playing field (with entrapment of trusting women) for their perverse aggressions. These men’s playing field is a minefield for women.

The WC brand of egalitarianism is effrontery, not equality.

birdoftheair,

Excellent thoughts, which I have pondered as well. Much as I distrust the Institutional Church (and other man-made institutions) sometimes, that’s where the people you need, and who need you, happen to be! So, after the necessary period of healing, I find myself tentatively dipping my toe back in, seeking a non-authoritarian church setting in which I can participate, and, who knows, maybe even serve to fend off authoritarian inroads? Thanks for sharing those gracious thoughts!

birdoftheair,

“And even amidst bad churches, God has given me a good connection here and there for meaningful fellowship, even for serving together in some way. There are a lot of weeds mixed in the garden of fruit trees these days. It’s disheartening and wearisome. Hard to root the bad weeds out completely. But it’s worth the effort to keep the garden clean and healthy.
Joseph kept his eyes on his God in the land of suffering. That gave him strength and real healing from all the wrongs done to him. He also had impact on so many people.”
++++++++++++++++

thank you for your thoughtful reply.

as i see it, the church institution does not equal God / God’s kingdom / pursuing God.

a few more reasons for opting out of church:

it was not a good use of my time.

–i sit there, endure music i hate, forced to sing lyrics with sentiments that i don’t mean let alone believe in (the indulgent-for-the-songwriter message strays so far from the basic tenets of God/Jesus/Holy Spirit)

–i then sit there and endure a sermon that is canned, full of stale ideas, which i may have heard before from another source, which i cannot stay focussed on without my mind wandering…. 10 minutes later, i couldn’t really tell you what in the world it was about.

–i arrive back home, all in all a 4-5 hour chunk of my day. and i think, “what was that all about?”

in addition to that, i see all kinds of manipulation. people feel coerced into joining small groups (& other activities), feel somehow guilty (disappointing pastors and God) for not giving more of their week and life away.

the pastors may have good hearts and good intentions, but they’re simply following the model. and the model is that the more people are in church the more they tithe.

*BONUS*: i’ve noticed that in church people give over their spirituality/faith to the professionals to manage for them. they wait until the church says “let’s do such & such”, or to smilingly coerce them into volunteerism for the church’s sake. they lose initiative just as they lose their own thoughts.

H-E-doublechopSTIX, but i can manage my own spirituality and faith on my own. i’m a responsible adult.

truth be told, i can be 10 times more productive without the middle man (professional christians at church). and the best part about it is the benefit of my time and effort goes straight to human life/lives who truly need it.

bird’, you’re a kind person, i can tell. and i do appreciate your interaction here.

my irritation is not directed at you, but rather at those who sold me a bill of goods to benefit the source of their paycheck, their lifestyle, and/or their enjoyment of power/significance.

elastigirl,

Thanks a lot, for reminding me of all the reasons I come home every week that I actually manage to persuade myself to go to church determining to never go back! (Sarcasm)

But seriously, as someone whose community and world was always built upon the church, how do you replace it fully? My sister urges me to get involved in other non-church organizations, but I can’t help but fear the same abusive structures in any organization. Maybe I need more time to heal.

elastigirl,

My story is almost identical to yours, the music, the sermons, the big chunk of time. The one part I have to give credit to the church to is that they did begin promoting “manage your own spiritual life” and it’s ok if you leave “this church”, hopefully for another.

jyjames,

Agreed.

DD: The other shoe that was waiting to be dropped.

He not only mentored Hybels, he groomed Wheaton College. The mystique and the mythe of it all.

TS00,

Amen. And lol, I wondered where the shepard costumes came from.

jyjames,

Dr. Bilezikian was accused in the early 90s of sexual harassment by some female students at Wheaton. He was made to take a leave of absence, and the admin of the college worked with his church (Willow Creek) to get to the bottom of allegations. He was restored to his position at Wheaton by the next semester.
I was there at the time and knew only this much about the situation. I would also say, however, that he had a rep as a “cringy old guy” with some of the girls. That would definitely line up with what the woman tells in these 2 stories.
jyjames,

TS00,

“But seriously, as someone whose community and world was always built upon the church, how do you replace it fully? My sister urges me to get involved in other non-church organizations,”
++++++++++

very pertinent question.

i still miss engaging regularly with the great people and friends i had there. the fact that i was willing to give this good part up is a measure of now negative the bad part was.

church is so darn insular:

1) the implicit message is the the secular worldly world is dangerous, scary, stupid, evil, will mess your life up. you’re only safe in church, which is also the only place you’ll find healthy relationships. no one comes out and says this, but the message comes through loud and clear — whether church staff realize it or not. (see, they’re following program decided by shadowy figures)

2) the hungry machine of church is never satisfied and will eat more and more and more of one’s time. there just isn’t time for anything other than church. (and one’s job, of course, to bring in the tithe)

NOW,…moving on here,…since extricating myself from the institution (and time to detox), the sun has risen on my neighborhood, and the fact that it is chock full of excellent human beings. relationship, friendship right here.

it is totally moronic to even have to make that statement.

my neighborhood is full of kind, honest, generous, and moral human beings. atheist, agnostic, muslim, hindu, buddhist, jewish, mormon, etc.

i enjoy them for who they are, not what they are. they enrich my life.

i also have a prayer group of about 7 or 8 women, from all over christendom (baptist, pentecostal, charismatic, eastern orthodox, catholic, lutheran…).

some years ago i wanted to form one (so i was accountable to actually pray). i spread the word to a few people who seemed to know everyone everywhere. after a few months, we were 2. then it grew from there. 7-8 isn’t huge, but it’s nice.

elastigirl,

“it is totally moronic to even have to make that statement.”
+++++++++++

to clarify: moronic that i didn’t see this for too long. i’ve always loved people from the 4 corners of the earth geographically and ideologically. (except patriarchy — i fahrt in that general direction, dahling)

if glory is being one’s true self, how ironic that church turned me into something far, far, far from my true self.

TS00,

“My sister urges me to get involved in other non-church organizations, but I can’t help but fear the same abusive structures in any organization. Maybe I need more time to heal.”
+++++++++++++++

got commenting energy to spare here, today.

i think organizations that invoke the concept of God naturally get off the rails in the abusive, manipulative department.

other organizations are prone to be healthier, more reasonable. but certainly no guarantee.

yes, time to heal. and in the meantime: the way i see it, if we have 1 true friend (one), we are ahead of most of the world.

many surface-y friends is no substitute for 1 true friend. i’ve grown to appreciate my very small handful of kindred spirits, drink deeply, and consider myself the luckiest person on earth.

and i consider every moment of happiness, no matter how fleeting, as a power vitamin.

elastigirl,

I really love this. Have lived in rural areas for several decades. I love my county, quiet, etc., but would you believe I have increasingly felt the urge to move into the city? Few of my family believe I would like it, and think I am just desperately looking for something new. Yet, it seems to ever press upon me, as I walk almost daily in my favorite city neighborhoods, traffic, dogs, airplanes and all. Would love to be able to talk to you one on one! 🙂

Max: TS00: NDA’s are allowed to protect genuine, intellectual property

There is no intellectual property in most churches! The only thing church leaders want protected, by requiring staff/members to sign an NDA, is their derrière.

Even the secular world gets how NDA’s have been used to facilitate sexual abuse. It is time for The Church to wake up:
http://myfloridalegal.com/webfiles.nsf/WF/HFIS-AVWMYN/%24file/NAAG+letter+to+Congress+Sexual+Harassment+Mandatory+Arbitration.pdf

elastigirl: and i consider every moment of happiness, no matter how fleeting, as a power vitamin.

So do I. And so did the writer of the Book of Ecclesiastes.
Enjoy the goodness of this life while ya’ can, because it really is fleeting.

DD,

Kind of stinks when you realize you are dealing with a centipede rather than one man. Lots of shoes!

Deborah: Kind of stinks when you realize you are dealing with a centipede rather than one man. Lots of shoes!

I’m afraid you are right. Many would like to pretend that this is just a ‘man falling into sin’ issue, when it is much, much more. There is rot to the very core of the Institutional Church, and it is by design. Satan’s great deception, deceiving, if possible, even the very ‘elect’ (non-Reformed definition).

The Institutional Church is just that – an institution, built by men, on the traditions of men for the purposes of men. I know an awful lot of people do not wish to hear that, but it is time we faced facts. I’m sorry, but I am not going to accept the charge that so many ‘godly’ men ‘fell into sin’. Rather, so many naive believers ‘fell’ under the spell of deceivers pretending to be godly men. Instead of smearing the character of the truly good and perfect God, why not allow that this institution was never his to begin with, as history has strongly suggested.

TS00,

“But seriously, as someone whose community and world was always built upon the church, how do you replace it fully?”
++++++++++++++

i’m all to present here today — but i had another thought.

people who go to church become very used to lots and lots of people in their lives. even if one only sees them on Sundays. it feels like the ideal that everyone is looking for.

not necessarily true.

my relatives have never been to church. they are shocked at the numbers of people in our lives (from having grown up in church, then continued on as an adult in a few more churches). they think it’s crazy.

they think it’s crazy to be involved with so, so many people all of whom seem to behave like they’re family together, or as trusted friends.

church calls it community — my relatives would call it ‘an engineered community’. really, it is not possible to have “trusted familial friendship” with such a great number of people. it is sort of a “we-are-family uniform” that everyone puts on. it’s not really real.

my relatives think it’s infinitely more sensible, rewarding, and real to simply have a small collection of friendships that form organically. instead of all these people who you know simply because you are associated together in an organization.

so, what i’m trying to convey is going to church makes it seem like it’s the norm to have lots of people in one’s life, and to think of them as ‘family’, community.

i don’t think it is. i don’t think it’s reality. people outside of church develop their relationships apart from the social engineering. i have to think they go deeper, are more genuine, and more solid.

so, if you feel you’re losing a community, perhaps it was a pseudo engineered community to some extent. and perhaps less people is more normal. and healthy and rewarding.

TS00: The Institutional Church is just that – an institution, built by men, on the traditions of men for the purposes of men. I know an awful lot of people do not wish to hear that, but it is time we faced facts.

I so totally agree with what elastigirl said at 2:58am this date. But I have some serious disagreement with what you (and others) have been saying and what I have quoted above. Let me say this, and please understand that I and many others have come to some conclusions that may not be your conclusions but we have not done it in the dark. Quite the opposite a lot of the time; we may well have come to our own opinions through our very own blood, sweat and tears as it were.

Almost everything on the earth is a mixed bag of wise vs foolish, well intended vs poorly though out, Spirit inspired vs childish whimsy, etc etc. One essential to being able to cope is called discernment, but discernment is not to distinguish between totally good vs totally bad (that can be pretty obvious sometimes) but rather discernment is like sorting potatoes by size-not that clear cut and not that easy.

If Jesus really meant whosoever will then whosoever that wills can be expected to show up ‘at church’ and the fact is that whosoevers are a mixed multitude. It is not possible for you or me to determine who is one of the ‘weaker’ brethren and who may be merely a newbie and who may be an impostor and who may be even actually mentally ill or even a unwilling agent of evil.

That said, we were never called to center our lives around each other or ‘the church’ or our families or our jobs/hobbies or even our favorite theological debates or much less become followers of Bro. BillyJoeBob. The first commandment it to love God. Not an easy thing to do. We are individually empowered for, to use Pauls’ word pictures, armed combat. We are commissioned to go into ‘all the world’. Like salt in order to savor; like leaven to activate; and yes sometimes like sheep to the slaughter as it were for some. We are given enough resources to have enough and some to share even when we have to listen to Whose strength is made perfect in whose weaknesses.

Let me try to quote as well as I can remember something from Peter Marshall. ‘Too many Christians are like deep sea divers encased in suits designed for many fathoms deep marching bravely to pull out plugs in bathtubs.’ Ouch, Peter, just ouch. Is it I? Is it those ‘at church’ who don’t seem to ‘get it’? Do I need to forget the bathtub and jump over the side and see what happens because perhaps I have expected to find more in the bathroom tub than it was ever designed to be?

For myself, I have to keep playing in the back of my own inner self talk ‘Lord, I believe. Help thou my unbelief’. And I have to keep replaying that ‘He knows our frame and remembers that we are dust’.

Deborah: the lust for power and control can be found in the hearts of tiny places too

Agreed. Tougher to hide, but it’s there. The bottom-line in all of this (whether mega or mini) is that the pulpit is occupied by too many folks who just don’t need to be there … who “called” themselves to be pastors for reasons not healthy for the Body of Christ.

With the stepping down of board and certain leadership of WCC, the kind folk who attend services or the wonderful churches who associate world-wide will require individuals at various 501c3 organizational levels who will be of established proven integrity moving forward. Most likely this is in process thereof, one would think.

ATB

Sòpy

mary: because ‘they get so much from it when they go’

seconded, same with my wife. Once my youngest graduated from HS I told her I wasn’t interesting in going to ‘church’ anymore so now we just watch from home, go on Easter / Christmas. I worry about her as she knows many people there and has heard the stories from people who have worked there but she just seems to ignore the problems. I guess this is the type of people they want to fill the auditorium with, “just keep writing the checks”, ‘another brick in the wall’, “we leaders will go off and get the earthly rewards, er, we mean show the world what christianity is really about”.

jyjames,

See above comment, with question: How did we get here?

It took time for the comment to clear, so I’ve been thinking. Two thoughts:

– As leadership became in over their competency with predators in their congregations, sweeping it all under the rug, predators then infiltrated the clergy, too. (Moreover, predators can be big donors. Church gives them access. Church legitimizes a predator as a pillar of the community. There’s co-dependency of clergy & donors. Which segues to the 2nd thought:)

– Money. The more church has become a weekend event to draw crowds (music, theatre, technology, coffee shop, celebrated speakers, etc.), the cost has increased. More money-dependent means less morally astute.

Thoughts?

Not to further muddy worship war issues, but what actually matters to some pastors is to transition the pew peon to expect ever new contemporary music (and devil to pay if they don’t like it) BECAUSE THE DENOMINATIONAL PUBLISHING HOUSES OFTEN OWN THE RIGHTS TO THE MUSIC.

Forcing you to “buy their product” or you are divisive and don’t love God or care about the lost.

Nyet..

Max,

WCCC ex-pat here. I have many good memories of it but as of several years ago it became a chore to attend. More often than not I felt angry, defensive, disenchanted while driving there Sunday mornings. I seemed to have little in common with most of the people we ‘knew’ there (do you really know someone you see 1x a week?). I think things really turned after Chapter 2. I remember the ‘grand opening’ of the new auditorium and felt dirty when everyone cheered and applauded for the new place. I understood the purpose but it seemed like there was no longer any humility coming forward from the leadership. Everything had to be bigger, better, etc. That wasn’t what i was looking for in my spiritual life. It can be argued they provided spiritual guidance too but I felt like it was secondary. My .02$. YMMV.

DD: Everything had to be bigger, better, etc. That wasn’t what i was looking for in my spiritual life.

Then as a seeker, you have been seeking the right thing.

DD: More often than not I felt angry, defensive, disenchanted while driving there Sunday mornings.

That was the Spirit within you stirring you not to settle in. May we all have anger (but sin not) and be disenchanted when the church we are in drifts off course, when the leaders we trust fail us. There is life after WCCC – I pray that you experience a time of refreshing from the presence of the Lord in the days ahead.

Lydia,

Lydia: The hardest thing can be when others keep telling us nothing is perfect or that the problem is everywhere. That is true but it’s not the same thing as acceptance of it in your life—from “church” of all places! I am not interested in perfect. How about transparent, decent, honest, trustworthy, etc? Those seem pretty basic for Christians, right? That might be asking too much of church these days?

You hit it right on the head for me, especially your third paragrah. I feel like I’m fighting an upward battle any and every time I bring it up.

TS00,

I don’t really hear it anymore because I never talk about it face to face /person to person unless someone asks me directly. I gave that up long ago. People are never convinced against their will to believe something other than what they believe. It almost always takes a bad personal experience, first. There is a whole phenomenon around this that isn’t just church related. It’s just the most perplexing.

TS00,

Thank you for your encouragement to people here, too.

If only more Christians would reflect more and heed the voice of the Holy Spirit more! Then many “leaders” would find more contentment in their relationship with their Redeemer. I am still learning the meaning of Psalm 16:11- You make known to me the path of life; in your presence there is fullness of joy; at your right hand are pleasures forevermore.

That could be the first step toward a healthy and holy discipleship lifestyle.

Max: Trying to find an “authentic” church in America – one that is the genuine real deal, whose builder and maker is God, not false or copied – is like looking for a California Condor.

Simply not true Max. Please try harder. Other kind folk’s experience may vary.

Remember, da gate o’hell shall not prevail.

elastigirl: the mission of the church is to perpetuate itself

You summed it up well, elastigirl.

elastigirl,

And to take it back to the topic of the post, just read these two old articles to gain some insight as to how Willow Creek has been the leading force to turn ‘Churches’ into successful organizations, rather than humble, servant-led assemblies seeking to serve God and others.

https://www.fastcompany.com/1702221/how-willow-creek-leading-evangelicals-learning-business-world
http://www.rapidnet.com/%7ejbeard/bdm/exposes/hybels/dilemma.htm

Lydia:

I don’t mean for this to come out of left field but… I suspect a lot of us have not paid attention to our “instincts”. I just mention this because there are so many people who are overly concerned that the holy spirit is not banging them over the head with warnings, understanding, etc.

There is not exactly a formula for the Holy Spirit.

I don’t know if this is accurate, but I have increasingly come to equate my ‘instincts’ or ‘gut’ with the leading of the Spirit.

When I had been brainwashed into becoming a mindless slave to my pastor, I found myself ignoring, denying and suppressing such instincts again and again. Once my eyes were open, and I forced myself to review all of the red flags I had ignored, I discovered that my ‘gut’ was right all along – but I had been persuaded that I should not trust it, but only my divinely-instituted authorities.

Instincts, gut, red flags, conscience – to me they are all synonyms of the moving of the Spirit to communicate with our Spirits. For me, these are never clear, verbal messages, but literally the sensation of my spirit that I need to take heed and figure out what the Spirit of God is trying to make me aware of. It often takes me a while to figure out what is up, but the warnings are always spot on.

Jack,

DD,

I felt the same way at Willow 15 yr plus attender. It turned more into a business then about spreading the gospel. The rules in serving became more harsh then my job. They pushed the word tithe so much which doesn’t even have anything to do with money they would bring in Robert Morris from Gateway church to put a new twist on it. If they would have preached sacrificial giving they would have received even more money. I also never agreed with having woman elders or woman head pastor and now feel Bills decisions and all my uneasy feelings are being validated as all this unravels. It seems decisions were coming from ulterior motives. Thanks for letting me vent and for those egalitarians please don’t respond and lets agree to disagree in Christ’s love.

CJ: and for those egalitarians please don’t respond and lets agree to disagree in Christ’s love

Wow! How arrogant. We all should read your opinion and “don’t respond” because . . . you’re the only one allowed to voice your opinion.

And then you call on Christ’s love?

After that comment, I’d have to conclude you don’t appear to know much about Christ’s love . . .

TS00: I don’t know if this is accurate, but I have increasingly come to equate my ‘instincts’ or ‘gut’ with the leading of the Spirit.

The Jewish view of gut instinct is not the same as the Christian view. In the Hebrew Bible, gut feeling is what many of the writers wrote with.

TS00: When I had been brainwashed into becoming a mindless slave to my pastor, I found myself ignoring, denying and suppressing such instincts again and again.

This mode of thought is a result of Greek Platonism, Christianity got infused with it big-time, early on.

okrapod,

Bingo. Gender is not a guarantee of more compassion or wisdom either way. It’s almost as if our society has given up on seeing “individuals”, their individual character, integrity, etc.

Muff Potter,

“This mode of thought is a result of Greek Platonism, Christianity got infused with it big-time, early on.”

It’s all around us. Form over function, too.

okrapod,

“Now, I am also thinking that ‘today’ is a ways from ‘yesterday’ so when some academics now come along and take another look at just what went on, take another look at both Jesus and Paul, and especially take another look at both church and scripture, we may be in our own bumbling ways experiencing a ‘great work’ of the Spirit as far as our beliefs go.”

Yes! I find this very exciting.

Lydia,

Yes. I heard a Jewish rabbi in Israel on youtube contesting with a Christian about a couple of ideas, and pertinent to this conversation one thing would be that he said that they believe in the Holy Spirit also ‘just not as a Person’.

Perhaps we have taken the concept of a three person Trinity in a bit of an excessive direction, and perhaps we have limited the idea of ‘person’ to what is limited to (and perhaps responsive to and perhaps even controlled?? by) those things to which we are used to ‘persons’ responding.

Do we, for example, try to conjure up the Spirit sometimes (too harsh a term I know, but…) and do we fail to perceive Spirit as what we are born of and internally experience in our own spirits in ways which may seem a bit strange to us? And/or in ways which we do not even recognize. Do we think it (the idea or the happening) is probably not the Spirit unless we perceive it to be Spirit (God) instead of spirit (us) and did we perhaps get to that place by thinking that born of the Spirit just means go to heaven when you die and/or get to participate in spectacular stuff sometimes now?

I think it is more than that. There are ways to express it that would surely be misunderstood, but one way is to take note of how we try to understand and control and explain everything while meanwhile the Spirit of God who moved over the face of the waters at creation (whatever that means) continues to blow as a wind wherever it pleases. Perhaps with but mostly without our understandings. So are we trying too hard? Is this constant angst some ‘easy yoke’? Hardly.

okrapod: Perhaps we have taken the concept of a three person Trinity in a bit of an excessive direction,

We can thank the Establishment with their self-claimed right to declare Truth and Orthodoxy for that. Many so-called heretics did not so much deny the new, official definition of the ‘Trinity’ but the right of any group of men to burn others at the stake for seeing it somewhat differently. The exact same sort of authoritarianism we see today, is what dissenters have always fought against. We (those who reject the right of any man, men or institution to declare unquestionable Truth) are the new heretics.

I don’t pretend to understand the Trinity better than the Nicene council – I simply reject their right to insist I no longer ponder the possibilities.

elastigirl: i don’t disagree with your comment. CJ seems to think women in leadership simply because they are women were what caused Willow Creek’s descent.

I would instead refer to someone’s comment that the avante garde leaders of Willow used their so-called progressiveness towards women to excuse inappropriate familiarity. ‘We can talk about our sexuality, and discuss intimate matters because we are all like-minded feminists’ can translate into crossing the line into manipulative and inappropriate behavior. Whatever one’s gender, no one has the right to impose their person upon you unasked, in any manner, or to compel you to engage in conversation or behavior which you find uncomfortable.

elastigirl: CJ seems to think women in leadership simply because they are women were what caused Willow Creek’s descent.

I am somewhere in between on this in this particular circumstance.

I do not think that women in leadership at that church, because they were women, caused this. But I do think that Hybels’ alleged interesting in having and promoting women in leadership, apparently as a position statement in itself, as opposed to just wanting the best people available be they male or female, is in retrospect a red flag.

And I think that these women in leadership, if they accepted the job based in part on gender (we want women in leadership) were under increased responsibility to go the extra mile to make it work for ‘women’ and not just for themselves, if that is what they were doing. If they accepted the job, accepted the admiration, became examples of women in leadership and played it for what it was worth, and if they cashed the paycheck and then dropped the ball, then heck no. They have made it look worse, not better, for the issue of women in leadership in churches.

And, of course, it would depend on the extent to which they knew or did not know what was going on. I don’t think they were hired as security for the premises so to speak.

TS00,

I wish it were that simple. People who have been in close proximity to a well-heeled and well-liked narcissist or sociopath will tell you it’s not. They play a long-term deceptive manipulation game. They get off on it You don’t even know you’re being brain gamed because they are so nice and supportive. you don’t even know that you played right into their hands up to that moment it becomes uncomfortable. That’s why they turn on you so quick if you confront them. You become the bad person for going along. I wouldn’t wish a narcissist or sociopath on my worst enemy. It’s like living in a Black Op.

Lydia: The mantra heard from many mega pastors is “believe the best”. Sounds nice doesn’t it? if I remember correctly that originated at Willow Creek back in the early 90s. It’s not wise. How about we be wise, polite and neutral until trust is built with people?

On the other hand: “Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. 24But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, 25And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.” (John’s gospel about Jesus, KJV)

That is definitely not ‘believe the best’. It is more like proceed with caution.

Lydia,

Hello Lydia, would you consider trinity = one essence/being, being made up by three persons formulaic approach?

TS00,

And while many have seen through it, there are others, very near to me, who still chant ‘Believe the best’ and probably will to their grave.

Benn,

Hi Benn, there is a lot of heretic hunting that comes with discussing the Trinity. Servetus burned at the stake for questioning it. It’s another place where I think our lack of cultural ancient Hebrew understanding and scholarship really limits us. I’m getting ready to run into a meeting and may comment more later if you’re interested.

TS00,

since when does ‘egalitarian = sexual familiarity’ between men and women?

it’s curious to me that Hybels/Bilezikian would make such assumptions. (unless they were predatory, lacking the ability to read other people, or just really mixed up to begin with)

i don’t believe i’ve ever seen ‘egalitarian’ articulated in any such terms anywhere. or observed it acted out in this way. apart from these Willow Creek shenanigans.

TS00,

I’m not up on my celebrities, but I seem to recall that at least one or two of the Hollywood/media abusers were so-called feminist supporters.

elastig:
TS00,

since when does ‘egalitarian = sexual familiarity’ between men and women?

it’s curious to me that Hybels/Bilezikian would make such assumptions.(unless they were predatory, lacking the ability to read other people, or just really mixed up to begin with)

i don’t believe i’ve ever seen ‘egalitarian’ articulated in any such terms anywhere.or observed it acted out in this way. apart from these Willow Creek shenanigans.

Ah! Because Hybels gave the women “agency”. Lol. That was a point I made on another thread why that approach doesn’t work in the long run. Not that it automatically invites the perversion of Hybels but it still invites the idea that it’s not earned but a gift conferred by the men. (What they give -they can manage or take away)

Okrapod had a great comment about this explaining how medical school worked for her as a female in the 60’s. I had a similar experience as a female in a man’s career when I started in the 80’s. The civil law, not a human, gave me agency. I earned the rest with no special considerations due to being female. I honestly don’t understand the feminists today. Victor Davis Hanson (in his 60’s) says the feminists of his college days are nothing like those today. They were much more independent and willing to earn their equality. Booker T, in his book, said the color of equality is green. 🙂

Benn,

One reason I hesitate to discuss it is because one has to go through every scenario of what horror or heresy they DON’T believe or subscribe to before the actual topic is addressed. I am aware of what words are not in scripture what I was alluding to, albeit badly, is how Yahweh is referenced in the OT which isn’t Father. There is “Father of Israel” and such but not God the Father. I always find Isaiah 9 interesting when it comes to discussion on this topic. There the coming Messiah is described as an Everlasting “Father”, Counselor, Mighty God. Then I study Hebrew/Greek thinking of era to find the concept of “Son” of God has cultural implications both ways. In Hebrew culture of the era the first born son is a representative of his Father in transactions. If you are doing business with the son, it was considered the same as doing business with the father. That is why they wanted to kill Him in John 5. Then we have the “son of gods” thing with Caesars. What does all this mean? Not sure. I like to put it all in a pot and stir it up.

I don’t have answers. Just questions and wondering if our doctrinal boxes are too small, sometimes.

Gee, I might just agree with McArthur for once for different reasons, of course. Worst thing in the world is having frauds who have supported horrible injustice for years on your side— all of a sudden. Hmmm. I hate being a pawn in someone else’s brain game advantage.

Benn,

One reason I hesitate to discuss it is because one has to go through every scenario of what horror or heresy they DON’T believe or subscribe to before the actual topic is addressed. Not because its overwhelming or hard to wrap the head around. I find it fascinating. I also do not think we will be punished for discussing it even if we float ideas or questions. One reason why the cults use the Trinity is for indoctrination into a spiritual pecking order or to remove your belief in the indwelling Holy spirit. There are sinister reasons.

I am aware of what words are not in scripture what I was alluding to, albeit badly, is how Yahweh is referenced in the OT– which isn’t Father. There He is “Father of Israel” and such but not like as Father of a Trinity. Yet, Yahweh was at Creation, Let Us… and so on.

I always find Isaiah 9 interesting, too, when it comes to discussion on this topic. There, the coming Messiah is described as an Everlasting “Father”, Counselor, Mighty God. Then I study Hebrew/Greek thinking of era to find the concept of “Son” of God has cultural implications both ways. In the Hebrew culture of the era the first born son is a representative of his Father in transactions. If you are doing business with the son, it was considered the same as doing business with the father. That is why they wanted to kill Him in John 5 for daring to suggest such. Then we have the “son of gods” thing with Caesar. What does all this mean? Not sure. I like to put it all in a bigger Yahweh pot and stir it up.

I have not even touched on all the OT stuff when it comes to Yahweh.

I don’t have answers. Just questions and wondering if our doctrinal boxes are too small, sometimes.

Gee, I might just agree with McArthur for once– for different reasons, of course. Worst thing in the world is having cons and frauds who have supported horrible injustice for years suddenly sjw’s. Hmmm. I hate being an ignorant pawn in someone else’s brain game advantage. Isn’t trust supposed to be a “thing” anymore?

Benn: …and the like didn’t get the trinity correct, so to me it is hugely important.

I trust that you are aware that the concepts of God-ness/ Trinity are not identical between the Romans and the Orthodox and the Evangelicals. The fact that there are other groups also with yet other ideas is not surprising, or for that matter all that ‘huge’ to me.

Just look at the evolved doctrines and practices of other christian traditions besides whatever brand of protestantism

It is significant that Jesus said that people should believe that he was in the Father and the Father in him ‘or else’ believe him because of the works he did. That, and the fact that he did not lay out trinitarian doctrine as we now have it, but only mentioned relationships without much explanation at all, leave room for people to ‘cool it’ perhaps on some idea of salvation by doctrine alone with their specific concept of the Trinity being a necessary basis for all other beliefs.

Church councils have some value, but if you believe the pronouncements because they were the pronouncements of the Church, then it means you believe in the Church (Roman? Orthodox?) and perhaps you should convert. That sounds harsh, but to me it is only logical.

Benn,

testing

okrapod: besides whatever brand of protestantism

Sorry about the dropped sentence. besides whatever brand of protestantism you practice.

elastigirl,

If you freeze water, it is in a real sense no longer water, but is now only ice. A five gallon bucket can only be water, or only ice, or only turned into steam.

It can never be all three at same time

That to me is the difference and why I say God is one esense or being, but in being one esense, is still 3 persons.

I have really enjoyed reading all of the back and forth about glory and trinity that has been posted this week, truely fascinating…..

Max: You can find it in every community – where religious practice supersedes a relationship with Christ, where the teachings and traditions of men have replaced the worship of God in spirit and truth. The genuine church (often embedded with the counterfeit) is moving forward – often in obscurity. Praise God!

Indeed, let’s praise God for all the not-so-famous brothers and sisters who faithfully follow in Jesus’ steps in all parts of the world, including cities and towns of America.

Here is a wild thought, do you think it might help in preparing people for leadership?

1. Let them spend a significant period of time on the mission field first, serving in humble setting without fanfare. They should be under some supervision. They can find out whether this work of sharing the gospel and growing Christians is really what they want to do.

2. Let them spend a significant time doing prayer journals in obscurity. Included in this discipline can be a separate journal where they write out systematically prayers for small churches in city and rural areas, for missionaries who serve in the Middle East, Japan, Southeast Asia, and other places. They can pray for imprisoned/persecuted believers in many countries, for real problems of this land such as violence, homelessness, human trafficking, drug addiction, etc. etc. This part of the journal can be read by others for verification.

3. Beyond theology books, they could be required to read/review a good selection of biographies /stories of Missionaries, and work on their relationship with Christ away from the limelight.

After they are given a leadership post, they should still go out to serve elsewhere in humble places periodically while allowing others to serve at their post for the season. No one should get a sense of entitlement for a certain leadership position, this applies to Elders as well as Leaders, Pastors. In some churches immature or non-spiritual Elders/Boards have too much control over their pastors!

“Beware of passion that makes you reach for position, because it will end in spiritual infamy.” Interesting words by Oswald Chambers. But ultimately nothing is hidden from God, including our inner thoughts and secret deeds.

Lydia,

Lydia, I didn’t mean to say you were unaware of what the scriptures say in regards to the trinity.

I just was intrigued by the term formulaic approach

TS00,

Historical note: Calvin himself had some issues with the orthodox definition of the Trinity, and got into some trouble for not teaching it. Until it came in handy as an excuse to murder dissenters.

Benn,

When Cheryl Schatz did her video refuting ESS she presented quite a few examples of the “persons” of the Trinity doing the same things. The best example I can think of at the moment is the resurrection. We have scriptures relating that the Father raised Jesus, The Holy Spirit raised Jesus and Jesus raised Jesus.

Don’t ask me what conclusion I come to. It’s just more info that is right at our fingertips in scripture to put in the big pot.

Benn,

No problem!

Lydia: I don’t have answers. Just questions and wondering if our doctrinal boxes are too small, sometimes.

Nor do I have answers. But I will say this, if the heaven of heavens cannot contain Him (1 Kings 8:27) I have sincere doubts that the writings of theologians past and present can.

Benn,

“If you freeze water, it is in a real sense no longer water, but is now only ice. A five gallon bucket can only be water, or only ice, or only turned into steam.

It can never be all three at same time”
+++++++++++++++++++

perhaps this is taking the metaphor too far.

seems to me no metaphor is perfect — at some point, it breaks down. but it seems to me the point of a metaphor is not to be equivalent, but simply to help explain and understand generally.

i don’t think the function of figures of speech/rhetorical devices is to prove anything (the way math and science seem to do), but rather to simply assist in conveying meaning.
——–

“I have really enjoyed reading all of the back and forth about glory and trinity that has been posted this week, truely fascinating…”
+++++++++++++

well, it’s like cold pure water and fresh air from remote high places to hear what thoughtful people really think and wonder about, as opposed to the dogma and propaganda of the evangelical industry.

Benn,

Benn, This is not about winning a debate. The problem is for every verse that communicates ONE way there are others in various places that communicate something differently when it comes to persons of the Trinity and their “function”. And most Trinitarian talk is of “function”.

Such as the resurrection to point out a few:

John 2:19 (Jesus)
Romans 8:11 (Holy Spirit)
Acts 2:24 (The Father)

Where/Who was Jesus in the OT? He was at Creation. John 1 seems to make that quite clear.

Lydia,

I think we may agree more that we realize, ( due to my poor communication skills)

Are you of the opinion that someone could have a traditional ( I know that is open for discussion) view of the trinity, and not subscribe to ESS?

Muff Potter,

It’s strangely creepy to think that ESS research did me a big favor. By the time I was winding down, Yahweh was huge yet much less distant to me. The Calvinist’s determinist god has been doing quite a number on lots of people.

Lydia,

yeah…. i have a few “Jesus…really? why did you have to say it like that?? you didn’t foresee how twerps of the future would exploit it? or how paranoia-inducing it could be for others?”

Jesus was a product of his time. (God of eternity taking time out to grow and learn and experience as a human being)

how i see it.

okrapod,

Interesting comment, do you personally subscribe to any settled doctrine ( in your mind anyway) that has essential and eternal ramifications/consequences? I’m not judging, just curious.

About Ice-Water-Steam, here is something that might be of interest to some:

Since water is a created matter, the illustration of ice-water-steam may not be ideal for the three persons in one (as God, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) concept. But scientifically, if you read a book on Physical Chemistry you will find that Ice-Water-Steam can coexist when the proper combination of pressure and temperature is provided. It’s called the state of equilibrium.

Also, all of these three forms are of the same molecule H2O. The difference is in the distance between the H2O molecules which determines whether it will be solid, liquid or gaseous/vapor state. The speed of movement of these molecules in each form also varies.

I am no expert. Just something worth doing research on.

Lydia: The Calvinist’s determinist god has been doing quite a number on lots of people.

Islam has the same model, absolute and linear determinism.

2 Corinthians 5:21- “For He made Him(Jesus) who knew no sin to be sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Him “.

It is hard to imagine that Jesus not only bore our sin upon Himself, furthermore, He actually became SIN as a result for you and me! That SIN was killed, and washed in His incorruptible blood!

Then The Holy Spirit made Him rise to life. He is still alive. He will be in eternity. We are coheirs with Christ Jesus.

Lydia: Benn, This is not about winning a debate. The problem is for every verse that communicates ONE way there are others in various places that communicate something differently when it comes to persons of the Trinity and their “function”.

And pretty much everything else. Add up the facts that we have varying manuscripts, which have been translated in various ways and interpreted in various ways, and you end up with ‘Who can say for sure?’ I tend to favor the belief I once read of, in which early Church Fathers viewed ‘the Word’ as meaning Jesus, not the words of men. Of course, I was always taught that such thinking was from the evil, god-hating minds of liberals who just don’t want to obey God – but I can now laugh at such silly claims. I am at the point where I am willing to listen to anyone, and am not terribly shocked at anything. If an individual seeks to do what is best for others, and is willing to put aside self-interest for the sake of another, I am pretty much good with that. That’s quite a change for someone who was so hung up on ‘theology’.

Lydia: Maybe KenF will show up and share the “Traditional” Orthodox view of the Trinity.

I was mostly lurking this week because I did not have much to add and it’s been a busy week for me.

The historical development of the doctrine of the Trinity is a very deep topic that cannot be addressed well in a short comment. I don’t think there is anything I can add other than to suggest searching for some Orthodox perspectives such as this: https://lacopts.org/orthodoxy/our-faith/the-holy-trinity/an-introduction-to-the-orthodox-conception-of-the-holy-trinity/.

It took a few centuries for Christians to work out a reasonable understanding of the Trinity, and that process only happened because of various “heresies” that had to be dealt with. I don’t think the doctrine would have developed if there had been no sharp disagreements. I personally believe that the very messy process resulting in the Nicene creed got it right. But not all Christians agree. I am pretty sure that Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics both reject ESS.

Benn: A five gallon bucket can only be water, or only ice, or only turned into steam.

If one wants to get geeky here is a good link: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_point. Even more interesting is the critical point, where the liquid and vapor states become indistinguishable.

Muff Potter: But it still beats rock, paper, scissors.

Interestingly, this is one of those rare games where trying to lose is just as hard as trying to win.

Ken F (aka Tweed),

Thanks for the link. I always enjoy reading your finds.

Lydia: I always enjoy reading your finds.

The problem is there is so much info available for the finding. It makes it difficult to sort out. The more I learn the more ignorant I feel. It was much easier when my perspective was more limited.

Ken F (aka Tweed),

Tell me about it! Basically, my approach became what I decided had to be ruled out. I can’t subscribe to some5hing that doesn’t come even close to how life/world works that we experience. That’s how I saw Calvinism. Untenable. I see much of Protestantism about escaping this world to find any justice. Yet most use a forensic/justice approach to salvation. Dizzying.

Ken F (aka Tweed),

“The problem is there is so much info available for the finding. It makes it difficult to sort out. The more I learn the more ignorant I feel. It was much easier when my perspective was more limited.”
++++++++++

yes… i’ve got many thoughts, they’re in the process of crystallizing…

in the meantime, maybe this is something like when Jesus caught up with his friends in a boat in peril on the stormy sea, by way of the shortcut of walking on the stormy sea itself.

peter ends up walking on water briefly to meet his friend by that same shortcut, until he considered at all the surrounding overwhelming data, that is, and began to sink.

i think the essential thing is focussing on God, in a relational sense.

like i’ve seen in film where one person is in a stable spot, but another person is in a precarious spot, and to get to the stable spot they have to move across death-defying conditions. the first person tells the other person to look at them, don’t look down (or at the overwhelming data of their peril).

what matters is getting from here to there. not necessarily understanding the universe of data surrounding it. finding our source in partnering with God — God’s footfalls with ours, God’s hand with our hand, God’s voice with our voice. (which is all full of trial and error, of course. a learning curve, as with anything.)

getting from ‘good morning’ to ‘good night’, with effort, wisdom, skill, courage, humility, honesty… so that by ‘good night’ the earth and our relationships in it are healthier, cleaner, stronger, more peaceful, less problematic… i call that ‘best productivity’.

we can’t stand not knowing, not understanding. and it is certainly good and right to pursue answers. absolutely no reason not to.

keeping in mind the route is full of wormholes, instead of the shortcut to ‘productivity’.

(but i’m sure there’s a happy medium in there somewhere)

elastigirl

Hmmmm……. Temptation galore!

Ken F (aka Tweed),

It requires perpetual cognitive dissonance which their gurus present as special knowledge. Some have it but others can’t so we just have to believe them. It’s like not being able to get the “decoder ring”. Lol.

Lydia: It requires perpetual cognitive dissonance which their gurus present as special knowledge.

I suppose I am predetested against Calvinism…

Ken F (aka Tweed),

“Our time here on earth is to prepare us for that experience in eternity. “

That’s pretty much what I was taught as a kid by my mom and at church. My mom used to call it dress rehearsal. (She was a musician) Strange that’s EO. Lol.

Ken F (aka Tweed): The difference between heaven and hell in this viewpoint is how we respond to God’s eternal and unavoidable love.

When we receive Jesus, we receive the gift of total pardon and eternal friendship with God, starting now. Otherwise, we are already on the way to hell (separation from God, where no goodness exists) by default because we can’t reach holiness by human effort, because we have bought into Satan’s lies that we don’t really need God. Alas, people don’t realize how deadly it is to trust the father of lies!

Really appreciated your sharing here, too. By the way, what is EO?

The titles of the 3 books somehow did not appear in my post above, maybe due to my using the wrong brackets around them. Here they are:

1 “Abandoned to God – The Life Story of Oswald Chambers”

2 “The Complete Works of Oswald Chambers” which also contains the devotional book listed below:
3 “My Utmost for His Highest”

birdoftheair: Otherwise, we are already on the way to hell (separation from God, where no goodness exists)

EO is Eastern Orthodox. Their theology is very old and predates many of the Protestant vs Roman Catholic arguments. I like looking for their perspectives because they can be so different from what I was taught. For example, they don’t view hell as separation from God like the West does. Here is an example of their view of heaven and hell: http://saintandrewgoc.org/home/2015/4/17/paradise-and-hell-according-to-the-orthodox-church (the explanation comes after the picnic announcement). This view makes a lot more sense to me than the Platonic view adopted in the West.

Nick Bulbeck: I’ve been pondering something lately that is, I think, along similar lines to this. Specifically, I mean the way in which [ex-]christians who ask questions are met with canards like who are you to question god and god’s ways are higher than yours. There are many of us whose experience of searching for god has been negative, and we can’t openly declare ourselves for long without encountering people who’ve appointed themselves to make excuses for god. And they’re much more like the enablers of a sociopathic abuser than they are like ambassadors for the Christ of the gospel accounts.

I can see your point, for I increasingly reject the ‘god’ of much of Institutional Christianity, who, from their own definitions, does indeed often appear to be a sociopathic abuser.

Having thrown off that false image, I am ever in search of the ‘real’ God. I do have respect for the right of others to doubt there is such a thing, but also compassion for the abuse and misconceptions they were often brought up under that has led them to such doubt.

One of my children’s young friends has been traveling a road, which has taken him into places and experiences that would be beyond shocking to most christians. My heart goes out to him, and frequently hear him asking many of the same questions that I ask. I do, however, encourage him to consider that perhaps our task is simply to get God out of the box so many have constructed for him. Perhaps it is all my imagination, but I do find it difficult to view the amazing complexity and rhythms of the world and chalk it up to coincidence.

My goal is to uncover who this genuine Creator is and what he is actually doing in this world I believe he made, rather than being restricted to the constructs that the so-called Religions seek to bind us to. Religions that inevitably lead to the tyranny and abuse of others in the name of some ‘god’ or ‘law’.

If that leads to me being labelled agnostic, atheist or heretic, so be it. I’ll just keep searching. I’ve never heard any voices from heaven, and often feel as if my cries go unheard, and yet, I can’t help but think that what little intelligence, wisdom, compassion, etc. I lay claim to must have come from something other than a random conglomeration of chemicals. When my so-called conscience compels me to put aside my own desires for the sake of another, is that not the spirit of truth and goodness? Maybe it’s just my faith tradition, but I can’t help thinking that spirit comes from a Spirit, which urges, without compelling, people to do what is good and right. Even though we frequently resist.

Anyway, I’m not trying to convince you of anything, because I still don’t even know what it is I think I believe. 😉 Just sharing some of the thought processes I undergo. I apologize if I, or others, have been insensitive to your right to believe whatever you believe. It is at just that point that tyranny and oppression is birthed. We all must ‘choose this day . . .’.

My wife and I are not members of Willow Creek, although I have attended sometimes. Speaking as an outsider, my largest thought is simply that I feel badly about the whole thing.

With little to back it up except a lifetime of observing human nature, I am far less conspiratorial than many people on this thread. I have no problem believing that elders, church staff, and other pastors of the church lived in sincere ignorance, their largest flaw being group-think that their senior pastor and trusted leader could not possibly be guilty of egregious sin.

When all this began to come out, part of me hoped it was all a big misunderstanding. But it probably isn’t, I thought, since all indications were that Pastor Hybels was guilty of all these charges and probably more. Worse yet, he denied them and to this day he has not come clean, at least not publicly.

An angle that has gotten little media attention is the response of his wife. I know nothing about her, but I took note that when Mr. Hybels took to the pulpit to obfuscatge charges against him, she was not beside him, nor has she publicly commented at all. If Bill Hybels were a good man charged unfairly, she would stand beside him. But to the contrary, she is a betrayed spouse. Looks like her view is that he created his own problems and now he must face the music. I can’t say that I blame her.

Whatever view one may have about female pastors and elders (my own view being traditional), we can all easily imagine the additional media pummeling if the exact same things had happened in exactly the same ways but WCCC pastors and elders were all male. In my view, this tells us a lot about the decline of responsible journalism. Feminism has given rise to greater fairness, but it has also clouded objectivity.

Success breeds the sin of pride, which in turn breeds a thousand other sins. Maybe it is the Lord’s blessing that I haven’t been particularly successful.