Branding.
Akin has a point, branding or the brand name is normally not hidden “under a bushel, no” – but “Let it shine, let it shine, let it shine”. That’s the goal of branding: identity, market placement: “This little light of mine, I’m gonna let it shine.” “Around the world, ’til Jesus comes”.

So the cloak-and-dagger or flying stealth of who they are means something else is up. Oh, the mystery, the intrigue.

“The third question some of you just asked is ‘Since when did we become Southern Baptist?'”

How would they have known that?! SBC’s young New Calvinist pastors go out of their way to conceal Southern Baptist affiliation. That’s why they give their churches cool names, like “The Summit Church” rather than “The Summit Southern Baptist Church.” It’s as if they are ashamed of being Southern Baptist at the same time they sneak around with stealth and deception to takeover the denomination! SBC church planters hide their Southern Baptist identity, while they hold their hand out for SBC church planting funds. Everything will change under the Dude President’s leadership … it will be cool now to be Southern Baptist. Good Lord! They youth department is running the church now!!

If I am not mistaken, didn’t Summit get started as a Mark Driscoll Acts 29 church with NAMB funds? Or has that been stricken from the historical record, too?

Max,

It’s not just that. They manuevered the whole seemly hit to make it look like they are heros for wiping out the “bad” non #metoo, non sjw SBC when they are just as guilty! They rewrote their own history right before our very eyes and it worked. Best manipulation stunt I have seen yet. Just slap a Jesus fish on it and do some emotional Jesusplaining and people fall right in line to pass the torch.

Max: “The third question some of you just asked is ‘Since when did we become Southern Baptist?’”
How would they have known that?! SBC’s young New Calvinist pastors go out of their way to conceal Southern Baptist affiliation. That’s why they give their churches cool names, like “The Summit Church” rather than “The Summit Southern Baptist Church.”

Anaheim First Baptist has changed its name and “brand” twice in the past ten years or so.

The first time it was PORTAL, all in Hipster-Kewl greys and muted maroons, with no mention that it was even a church. I know this because I got a lot of its business cards shoved under my door. (At least the Mormons & JWs ring your bell and go face-to-face.)

Just last year it “rebranded itself” to “City Church”, bright red and white replaced the grey and maroon, and it has colorful street murals on its blank walls.

The A-frame building with its Sixties spire steeple and two-story stucco classrooms in back remains constant, though repainted and re-signed.

Max:
“Make no mistake – Al Mohler, a five point Calvinist, is the ship’s captain.”

I can see it now.In a smoke filled hotel room in Dallas, in the wee hours of this morning, the new Dude President walked up to the Commander in Chief and gave him a high five.No words were exchanged – no need for them at this point – the mission has been accomplished.

There is no more need for this “Christ” — We Have CALVIN!
As it was CALVIN in the Beginning, Is CALVIN Now, and CALVIN Ever Shall Be!
Predestined Geneva Without End, AAAAAAA-MENNNNNNN!

Headless Unicorn Guy: The first time it was PORTAL, all in Hipster-Kewl greys and muted maroons, with no mention that it was even a church.

Some of these things are beyond parody.

And the next article down explains why they did so.

https://baptist21.com/blog-posts/2009/third-generation-conservatives-in-the-southern-baptist-convention-part-3-misconceptions-2/

Yeah, but my POP-Corn sales are booming. Enjoy the show.

The Calvinist takeover of the SBC is now complete. Can’t you just see the patting on the backs? The high-fives? This past Sunday, my pastor of a large Baptist Church in Raleigh “came out of the closet” and admitted he was at least a 3-point Calvinist. Sadly, he only revealed this to a small group who dared ask a few questions. Will he now be bold enough to state his Calvinism from the pulpit or post it on the church website? For the most part, his members are very naive. This is the third Baptist Church in Raleigh we have attended where the pastors refused to really state their Calvinism. I have to wonder if my pastor (our our traditional Baptist church) was Calvinists all along or slowly made a change and “forgot” to inform the congregation. As this pastor said this past week, “What’s the big deal?” Well, we will all see in the next few years ‘what the big deal is” as the Calvinists continue to usher in their emergent, social justice, open borders, lack of respect for Israel and the millennial kingdom and more and more of Tim Keller’s liberal beliefs. As one pastor, I forget whom, stated, “TRUTH INVITES SCRUTINY, BUT ERROR DOESN’T LIKE TO BE CHALLENGED.” Just try to question your pastor and see how long he takes before he tells you to find another church. It is the fault of past SBC leaders, who refused to clean up their act, that the Calvinists were allowed to get this far. And, don’t even get me started on their deflection, “Well, it’s just all about the gospel so let’s all just get along.”

Finegold: “Well, it’s just all about the gospel so let’s all just get along.”

Calvinism = Gospel to these folks.

Lydia:
Max,

It’s not just that. They manuevered the whole seemly hit to make it look like they are heros for wiping out the “bad” non #metoo, non sjw SBC when they are just as guilty! They rewrote their own history right before our very eyes and it worked. Best manipulation stunt I have seen yet. Just slap a Jesus fish on it and do some emotional Jesusplaining and people fall right in line to pass the torch.

Exactly. And I know a number of people who will buy it completely, and refuse to listen to anything but the official version.

Max: Calvinism = Gospel to these folks.

Who needs Christ when you have CALVIN?

Can you say “CULT”?

Lea,

This is the dude who just got elected to lead the denomination he isn’t enthused about? Am I confused? Maybe he is confused and thought SBC stood for Some Bro Cult. I guess as long as Al “keep women in their place” Mohler is still in power it doesn’t matter who the front man is-as long as he is anatomicly qualified for ministry and his wife keeps his oil changed enthusiasticly and frequently. Pastor’s wives putting out are what the church truly rests on apparently. Their most important role. Looking for a brick wall to pound my head on. A bit demoralized by following the convention. Had hoped to see footage of a widespread revival breaking out.

Greear did get 66% of the vote.That’s not a squeaker.

I just caught the Vice President’s speech. The streaming thankfully worked the whole time. Excepting the question and answer regarding the first female SBC missionary to slaves, it was the only session worth the listening.

Form- Well delivered. The audience had little intellectual grasp. But the Vice President, brought it to their level. He even knew to change the delivery cadence, so an audience that has now idea what he said, knew when to clap.

Substance- Not a note taker personally, much to the annoicance of my teachers. However, I did reach over six times to scrible paraphrased interpretations. Of these six, I’ll pick this to comment on.

(In second half of speech)

-What you confess matters.

This is the first instance I know of where doctrinal confession, matters not only regarding personal soteriology of the confessor, but the nation.

I see no interpretation other then personal confession is of concern to the public policy of the United States.

At this point, I also remind myself the SBC, is evolving towards being a confessional convention. Shortly before the VP took the stage, Al Mohler refrenced Baptist confession of faith. He did so in response to the above mentioned missionary question.

Whether he was referring to the 1689 Confession, or solteriology in general, I can’t say. Only that Baptist confession was something the SBC needed to stay faithful to.

I restate my premise that Evangelicalism was founded in the 1940’s for the purpose of social influence.

That, and the Vice President simply operates on a higher plain, then SBC Messengers. Masterfully done.

truthseeker00: These folks literally do not know what has hit them until it is too, too late, their church is ‘gone’, and most of them are too old to start over. They either sadly look for a Lutheran Church, or remain in sad disbelief, having lost all influence to the new kids in town.

“And who needs the old geezers anyway? OLDTHINKERS DOUBLEPLUSUNBELLYFEEL INGSOC!”

drstevej:
Greear did get 66% of the vote.That’s not a squeaker.

Not 110% like in so many Third World elections?
I’m surprised.

AnObserver:
Rambler,

In your “church lingo” you need to remember to use “Gospel” as an adjective at least a few times.

And as an adverb.

Until it gets so overdone it might as well be “smurf” or “marclar”.

I don’t trust these guys (and I believe the Bible teaches the doctrine of Election – which I suppose makes me a “Calvinist” of sorts) I prefer the 5 solas to tulip (though I think tulip to be true also). I hope you all don’t have me.

Nevertheless, I don’t trust these “Calvinista” guys. They seem to exude the odor of slick marketers and politicians, rather the fragrance of faithful Bible teachers.

I followed a bunch of these guys online (hundreds of mp3 sermons and all) for years. Mohler, Chandler, Piper, Dever, Mahaney, Russel Moore, Tullian, Tim Kellar, Driscoll, and many more.

I think I benefited from much of their teaching. I believe they teach a lot of truth. Still, I lost confidence in them.

The whole Sovereign Grace fiasco helped me wake up. The way these guys backed their boy Mahaney really spoke volumes. The evidence of serious misconduct seems overwhelming to me.

Pragmatists, rather than faithful?????

God knows, and will judge all of us.
I need more time studying the Bible for myself, and less from these guys.

Bart: I need more time studying the Bible for myself, and less from these guys.

And everybody shouted AMEN!

Bart,

Welcome from another Calvinist (well T-U-_-I-P… I hold limited attainment not limited atonement).

Often it is easier to get control of an entity than it is to manage it afterwards.

Bart: I don’t trust these guys (and I believe the Bible teaches the doctrine of Election – which I suppose makes me a “Calvinist” of sorts) I prefer the 5 solas to tulip (though I think tulip to be true also). I hope you all don’t have me.

This place seems open to anyone humble enough to admit that, while we have our own beliefs, we could be wrong. What turns people off is those who claim to have all the answers and doubt the salvation of anyone who disagrees.

I never want to dehumanize people and reduce them to simply what they believe. People are worth much more than that.

Welcome!

Deb: Wish more of this crowd would wake up.

Tell them you are canceling the chicken dinner next week and they will wake up real quick!

Apparently Mohler was on about how they need godly men at seminary so his daughters will have someone to marry *alltheeyerolls*

Lea: Mohler said seminaries are the best place to get married.

Depends on the seminary, I guess. Certainly not SBTS! You would end up with one of those complementarian guys who would subordinate the life out of you.

Max: Reckon which seminary ‘godly’ young men go to these days?

I know some that went recently to Southern BTS, Mid-West BTS, NO BTS, SW BTS, DTS, WTS. These are godly young men whom I have worked with in a church setting.

Max: They justify their stealth and deception for the good of the reformed cause, to restore the “gospel” that everyone has lost … they alone possess truth, you know.

So did the Communists and Objectivists.

Deb: somebody’s gonna have to pay the bills to keep doors open

Some young reformers lied their way into control of a traditional SBC church near me. After recruiting enough like-minded reformed members, the YRR pastor succeeded in passing a vote on elder-rule governance. Long-established members kicked and screamed a bit before starting a new church across town. The reformers ended up with the church, but not enough tithing units to pay the bills. They cut back on meetings there to reduce electric demand. But, by golly, they accomplished their mission … they Calvinized a non-Calvinist church; I bet they really feel good about that.

Max,

Hello Max,

I was wondering – do you no longer consider yourself Southern Baptist? How do you think of yourself, as a Christian?

So if you are a Calvinist and you believe we are all God’s creation then you must also believe God created millions if not billions of us to burn in hell. In a nutshell is this what a Calvinist believes?

Deb,

Agree. That’s probably the reason for the Dave Ramsey dominance at the convention including giving materials to teach Financial Peace to the delegates. Ramsey’s materials are good, IMO. Our church has taught the seminar a number of times.

drstevej,

Dave Ramsey is an annoying mix of excellence and arrogance. I listened to his radio show years ago when it was called, “The Money Game”. At that time, he wasn’t that far removed from having lost everything. As the show progressed, the compassion in his voice began to fade. He became more harsh and demanding with the ladies whose husbands were not heeding his channelled advice. He also talked more about how his hard work entitled him to frivolous irems. He talked more rigidly about church government and tithing. I seriously doubt that he’s submitted to anyone in years. It’s no surprise that he now runs with this crowd.

Deb:
drstevej,

These Neo-Cals had better learn all they can about STEWARDSHIP (which Dave Ramsey is currently discussing on stage at the SBC gathering) and teach their younger congregants because when they run off all the older church members who have been contributing to their churches FOR DECADES, somebody’s gonna have to pay the bills to keep doors open.

Not to mention all of the grunt work that has to be done to keep a church (both the building and the people) functioning well.

Max,

What’s wrong with this picture. “Centered” is the noun and gospel has been demoted to a mere adjective. That just about says it all!

I’m becoming confused by this discussion topic. The SBC has a long standing problem with racism and sexism. I understand this brand of YRR seems to cling to an extreme complementarianism which certainly contributes to the abuse that is permitted to take place. However, I don’t think this is a neo-cal issue. The “traditional” free will baptist churches are not exempt. They all try to protect the institution and their little fiefdoms above all else.

The Calvinism rants feel like strawmen and move us beyond the focus of this sight.

Christ and him crucified. Protect the most vulnerable among us regardless of how it could destroy the institution.

The thing that disqualifies the SBC as a church that I would ever attend again is the fact that they included the Pledge of Allegiance and National Anthem as a part of their program. Including Mike Pence as a part of the conference is beyond ridiculous too.

And inerrancy. That’s hard to stomach too.

Max: And don’t forget to be gospel-centered this and that.

And also gospel saturated…

The Pain Wrought by Complementarian Theology
https://rightingamerica.net/the-pain-wrought-by-complementarian-theology/

What Happened: Dave Ramsey is an annoying mix of excellence and arrogance. I listened to his radio show years ago when it was called, “The Money Game”. At that time, he wasn’t that far removed from having lost everything. As the show progressed, the compassion in his voice began to fade. He became more harsh and demanding with the ladies whose husbands were not heeding his channelled advice.

Spies, Cash, and Fear: Inside Christian Money Guru Dave Ramsey’s Social Media Witch Hunt
https://www.thedailybeast.com/spies-cash-and-fear-inside-christian-money-guru-dave-ramseys-social-media-witch-hunt

Brent Detwiler:
It is the deceptive element that I find so disconcerting.Few even knew the Summit was a Southern Baptist Church because it worked against the image they were projecting.Don’t want to be associated with them.Now that he is President – the Southern Baptist Convention is great.

These people are snakes. Actually, that’s very unfair to snakes.

They are deceitful usurpers, who will do anything just to gain power and money. It is a travesty, and has nothing to do with Christianity, though it disgraces the name.

Brent Detwiler:
It is the deceptive element that I find so disconcerting.Few even knew the Summit was a Southern Baptist Church because it worked against the image they were projecting.Don’t want to be associated with them.Now that he is President – the Southern Baptist Convention is great.

I wonder if any more YRR pastors will follow JD’s lead and “come out of the closet”?

Lea: it’s like arguing with a cult member.

It’s not like arguing with cult member. It IS arguing with cult member.

drstevej:
Deb,

Agree. That’s probably the reason for the Dave Ramsey dominance at the convention including giving materials to teach Financial Peace to the delegates. Ramsey’s materials are good, IMO. Our church has taught the seminar a number of times.

Another reason, if I’m remembering right (we went through his Financial Peace seminar at the SBC church where our children went to Awana), is that he is a strong advocate for tithing. Please correct me if I am remembering this wrong, as it was more than a decade ago that we went through his class.

What Happened:
drstevej,

Dave Ramsey is an annoying mix of excellence and arrogance.I listened to his radio show years ago when it was called, “The Money Game”.At that time, he wasn’t that far removed from having lost everything.As the show progressed, the compassion in his voice began to fade.He became more harsh and demanding with the ladies whose husbands were not heeding his channelled advice.He also talked more about how his hard work entitled him to frivolous irems.He talked more rigidly about church government and tithing.I seriously doubt that he’s submitted to anyone in years.It’s no surprise that he now runs with this crowd.

There have also been reports that he is harsh and abusive to his employees.

Nancy2(aka Kevlar): I wonder if any more YRR pastors will follow JD’s lead and “come out of the closet”?

We saw the same thing with Highpoint and boy, some of Highpoint’s members were livid on Twitter that they were a Baptist church. Particularly because apparently Chris Conlee was stating from the pulpit they were nondenominational. They hurried to quit the SBC fast after that came out, simply because of the rage of their own people.

My former church was also not openly SBC, though most people here would recognize the pastor as being SBC. I remember being in a Sunday School class or group and somebody mentioned us being Baptist (could have been me, don’t remember exactly), and one person got very mad and insisted it was a lie. Their website does say they are SBC, and the pastor did mention once attending the convention, but in the seven years I went there, once was I think all I heard it mentioned. I guess people don’t read the website. Maybe they just aren’t really paying attention at all, I don’t know.

I do think churches have to be careful not to be intentionally deceptive, though I’ve seen a good amount of intentional deception explained away in my time as a Christian.

drstevej: Ramsey’s materials are good, IMO. Our church has taught the seminar a number of times.

I had a few issues with his/her presentation. They go after credit of any kind as would a died in the wool SBCer after alcohol. Plus he picks up the tithe portion of the OT as if it was spoken by Jesus in the Gospels.

Plus a church some of us were considering for a month or so started a DR sermon series and basically turned it into a prosperity gospel with a guarantee. Do “this” and money will magically appear in your accounts. If not we’ll refund all the giving you’ve done during the series “no questions asked”. Our last time at that church. 🙁

Ray Wickham: Some folks wanted to reinstate Patterson as President Emeritus of SWBTS.

The report of how PP interacted with the board at the seminary put a quiet to most of that talk fairly quickly.

Max,

Max,
Blessings to you and yours. You have brought much good food for thought in your comments, and your heart for the Lord has always been evident.

Thank you, Max, for your clear and heartfelt explanation of your situation. I have always valued your posts here, felt a kindred spirit in fact, and your walk in Christ has been evident to me, and an encouragement to me. Again, thank you.

Yes, kicking against the goads gets very tiresome. At some point a simple following of The Way gets subsumed in church politics. I know that you will continue to be an inspiration and encouragement to all you meet along the way. I know you don’t make this move lightly, but I strongly believe you have done the right thing.

I hope you will still comment here. You don’t have to be a combatant in any kind of church wars, but I for one have really grown from your simple but profound observations. So clear. I need simple and clear sometimes.

Again, I know this kind of decision is not easy, or a casual thing for you, but I hope you are at peace with it. As you have helped me to internalize, it’s the Church, not some church, that matters in the end.

All best to you, my friend, and Brother in Christ!

Sincerely,

Steve (roebuck)

Max,

Max, we need you here at TWW. With all of this branding going on, we need your straight talk and Scripture quotes, your guidance and encouragement. Your teaching, experience, Bible knowledge, and walk with the Holy Spirit are like gold here. Ever grateful for what you share. We may not be an important entity, like the SBC, but we highly value what you share. God bless.

Max, I hope you do “occasionally troll” the Wartburgers! I’ve always enjoyed your comments and your deep heart for the church and people. Enjoy your “retirement” but don’t be a stranger!

NC Now: Plus a church some of us were considering for a month or so started a DR sermon series and basically turned it into a prosperity gospel with a guarantee. Do “this” and money will magically appear in your accounts.

I almost said I got that vibe too but I haven’t done the program itself, so I’m glad you mentioned it.

deb:
Max,

Take a break to refresh yourself, but please come back! You are a voice crying in the wilderness.

Ah, ‘Vox clamantis in deserto’ – the Dartmouth College motto. My partner, her father, her sisters, a couple of neices, and so forth, are all Dartmouth alums.

Daisy,

Thanks, Daisy. Excellent video. (And I’m not a fan of The Shack.)

Bill:
So if you are a Calvinist and you believe we are all God’s creation then you must also believe God created millions if not billions of us to burn in hell. In a nutshell is this what a Calvinist believes?

I’m afraid it’s considerably worse that that. Historically, Calvinists have tended to affirm that the sight of the sufferings of the damned will increase the blessedness of the elect. I think that this attitude goes all the way back to Tertullian, who was eager to see his enemies suffer in endless torment. Welcome to Latin tradition christianity.

I noted in a previous comment thread that when one combines monergism/predestinarianism with infernalism, one arrives at something quite grotesque. I used to be able to put up with it (some of Piper’s writings helped to anesthetize the conscience), but it has gotten harder in recent years.

For many or most, the flaw in this conjunction is reckoned to be in the concept of monergism and its implication of predestinarianism; God doesn’t predestine to endless suffering, He simply respects the free wills of those who reject Him, and is bound by His moral character to inflict endless punishment. As DB Hart shows in his “God, Creation and Evil: the moral implications of creatio ex nihilo”, this isn’t as tidy a solution as it appears. My suspicion is that the flaw is in infernalism.

Max,

I hope you keep commenting here. There are plenty of non-SBC topics where we will be needing your perspective.

I quit my SBC church a few weeks ago, not because they have gone full YRR but because it became clear that this is where it is headed. I simply could not keep going against the flow there.

Samuel Conner: Calvinists have tended to affirm that the sight of the sufferings of the damned will increase the blessedness of the elect.

Here is a sample from Tim Challies:
https://www.challies.com/articles/can-we-enjoy-heaven-knowing-loved-ones-are-in-hell/

“once sin is removed from my life… and I love the Lord my God with all of my heart and all of my soul in undiluted perfection, my compassion, my love, my concern will be much more for the vindication of God’s holiness than for a corrupt fallen kinsmen of mine.”

There are many more examples available, but this is sufficient. It’s pretty disguating to read.

drstevej: I like inerrancy. God breathed and He does not have halitosis.

Sorry, but this annoys me because it’s a glib toss-off of the problems with inerrancy.

When did God place the inerrancy in the writings (not calling them scriptures here)? Was it when the writers were looking for the particular turn of phrase? When they wrote it down on the parchment or papyrus? Or when they dictated it to their scribes? When the scribes copied over the second, third, fourth generation copies and they accumulated errors?

And when can we say that they were flatly WRONG about what they wrote? For example, slavery is very much a part of the writings but we may not realize it because the translations tend to minimize that “servant” actually means “slave” and yes, Paul really did send Onesimus back to his owner. And how that little episode, immortalized in Philemon, was used for centuries to support chattel slavery, which is now illegal?

When you say something is inerrant, you’re saying it’s without error. I have to wonder how much of this came over in a distorted fashion from Islam in the last few centuries. The Qur’an is held to also be without error, and not only that, some Muslims think there’s an ultimate copy of the Qur’an in paradise because it’s literally God’s Words through the angel Gabriel to Muhammad.

When I hear someone describing the writings of the Christian Bible to be “inerrant” (or those other i words “infallible” or “inspired”), I cringe. Because I do know (very imperfectly) a couple other languages and I know translation is not easy. Add in that the translation is from languages that generally do not exist today to languages which did not exist when the original documents were written, and you’ve got some pretty inconceivable gaps.

Also, as a woman, I struggle to find myself in the writings, because they seem so very male-oriented. It’s very occasionally that you hear from women. It breaks my heart when Mark 14:9 is read (“And truly I tell you, wherever the gospel is preached in all the world, what she has done will also be told in memory of her.”) and we don’t know her name. She anointed Jesus for her death and we don’t know her name.

Yeah, I’m feeling a bit annoyed and put out right now, because to me, the enterprise of “church” seems a long way from Jesus and doesn’t seem to have much of a place for women who didn’t follow the approved path.

Marie:
I don’t agree with churches not being upfront about their affiliation. It doesn’t have to be the name of the church, but it should be mentioned in the website and not be totally unmentioned in the church.
I agree. I’m uncomfortable with generic names for churches. It feels almost like lying to potential members….

Ken F (aka Tweed): “How do you think of yourself, as a Christian?” Well, Roebuck, if you are asking what affiliation I now have with religious institutions, I guess I would say I’m a “Done” … done with institutional church right now, but not done with Jesus.

This brief quote might also be a glimpse into the thinking (or rationalizations) of church leaders who suppress reports of terrible sins against members of their congregation — they have much more compassion for God’s glory than they do for the suffering of a fellow human being under their “care.” The second great command is totally eclipsed by the first. IIRC, 1 Jn 4 reverses this; the evidence of our love for God is seen in how we treat others, especially fellow believers:

Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen.

There is a lot of “form of godliness, but denial of its power”

NC Now,

Yea ,I personally put Ramsey in the same class as televangelist. People fall all over themselves listening to these guys with their magic formulas for prosperity.

Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,

Here is a real life Handmaidens tale. It’s not Christian based, though.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thedailybeast.com/ex-nxivm-sex-cult-member-reveals-allison-macks-role-in-gruesome-branding-ceremony

Max, (ed.)

As long as you keep visiting us! I can certainly understand wanting to retire from the craziness. You make some good points about that.

Max,

I hear you. It reminds me of that poem by Shel Silverstein about the woodpecker peckin’ on a plastic tree. In fact it does not matter how good the woodpecker is, or how persistent, or how committed to the task, if the tree is plastic then it just is.

I am sorry this has happened, and I am sorry that your family has had to take such drastic steps. Stay in touch, for our sakes if not for yours. In the very best way that southerners say this, “bless your heart”, and bless your wife and your daughter and your son-in-law and anybody else involved in this.

Just in case you missed it, in eternity we are having a barbecue on the south lawn. See you there. Eventually.

ishy,

Whoa, meant that to Max. I need to not post right after I get up. Sorry to both of ya.

Max,

Happy Trails, Max!

You are wise. It’s over. The other bad guys won because they are more clever and willing to wear new masks unashamedly. It’s a great socio/psychological lesson on group manipulation, though. If anything, we can become wiser and more independent and that counts for something. You have been a blessing to me. Now, go weed the garden! 🙂

Brent Detwiler,

But they certainly were not embarrassed to take and spend the “SBC” Pew sitters money!

SBC withdrawal. Woke up licking an empty POP-Corn bowl.

Thankful to be non-denominational.

drstevej:
SBC withdrawal. Woke up licking an empty POP-Corn bowl.

Now that is the ultimate submission!!!

jyjames:
Max,

Max, we need you here at TWW. With all of this branding going on, we need your straight talk and Scripture quotes, your guidance and encouragement. Your teaching, experience, Bible knowledge, and walk with the Holy Spirit are like gold here. Ever grateful for what you share. We may not be an important entity, like the SBC, but we highly value what you share. God bless.

This, yes this.

Preacher’s Wife: They said, unaware of what I was considering, “only two types of girls get an MDiv. The ones that want to get married, and THOSE girls.”

Ugh.

There may be a lot of nice men at conservative seminary, but man the stories I’m reading tell me that I am perfectly happy to have attended a completely secular institution.

Jeffrey Chalmers,

Exactly!!

okrapod,

I grew up saying yes Ma’am and yes Sir to my parents out of respect (and Southern custom).

English profs at Ga Tech were a strange breed. You could not major in English so these profs taught only basic classes.

Max,

Of course, you are free to do whatever. And a break can be refreshing. But I hope you troll and comment more than you expect [like I do!] You have a valuable perspective.

Nick: I don’t understand what draws people to these types of pastors.

I am very sorry.

In my opinion, initially the Calvinists do not show their true colors. They love bomb the members, winning their trust, and only then do they subtly shift the meaning of the gospel; usually so subtly, most only feel a vague discomfort now and then, for which they blame themselves.

I have been in a few of these circles over the years, and it seems to me that the key tool used by false teachers is the promise of ‘The Solution’. Whatever it is that you fear, or most want to avoid, they proffer the real ‘solution’. If you conform your marriage and family to their system, you will avoid divorce. If you homeschool your kids, you will avoid rebellion and unwed pregnancy. If you kowtow to the church discipline theory, you will keep the church ‘safe’. It really is the same principle used my most politicians – feed and play upon peoples’ fears.

Max: P.S. I “might” become an infrequent TWW troll … and I “might” provide occasional half-wit and wisdom on matters other than New Calvinism (I’m done with that thing!). My wife just reminded me that with my spare time now, I need to clean out the backyard shed.

Max, please don’t leave! Years ago I quit referring to myself as SBC, but belong to a church that cooperates with both SBC and CBF. If it were strictly SBC, I would move elsewhere–maybe across the street and worship with the Methodists!

truthseeker00: The Church. Increasingly, I have begun to suspect that God desires to save his children from The Church.

I recently ran across the idea that Zion and Babylon symbolize two sets of values. Zion represents the presence of God, relationship, and sacrificial service. Babylon represents the institution, with power, control, and hierarchy. In this view, the problem is not the “church” as much as it is which system the church pursues. The kings get drunk on Babylon, while Babylon gets drunk on the blood of the saints. Many churches are pursuing Babylon, with the expected results. This is an interesting idea, but I cannot find much written about it. It could be that God wants to save us from the institution.

Max,

Well—whenever you are done with the backyard shed, we hope you come back to share your thoughts. We’ve really enjoyed hearing your perspective here. It would be a major loss if you decided to move on.

By the way, many of us here have faith in the southern Baptists folks—faith that they won’t just take this sitting down. No matter how hard someone tries to take over their demonization, the reality is that people aren’t going to just allow Calvinism to be shoved down their throat. Most likely they will vote with their feet until the Calivinists realize that the sovereignty of God won’t allow them to take what many other people have spent years building.

I remember reading a quote by Sam Walton that went something like this:
The only boss is the customer. And he can fire everyone in the company from the chairman on down simply by taking his money somewhere else.

I have a feeling that these southern Baptists are much tougher than people think.

drstevej,

drstevej

How did you do at drownproofing???
Go jackets

Benn,

That was a challenge but I made it. The jumping in the deep end clothes and all for an hour without touching the side of the pool was fun.

Drstevej,

Also feet tied together and hands tied behind your back in deep water was very Baptist

weave73,

No.No what?

truthseeker00: In my opinion, initially the Calvinists do not show their true colors. They love bomb the members, winning their trust, and only then do they subtly shift the meaning of the gospel; usually so subtly, most only feel a vague discomfort now and then, for which they blame themselves.

“Over a paven plain that seemed unending
They passed unfaltering till it found an end
In one long shallow step; and these descending
Fared forth anew as long away to wend.

“I thought they travelled for a thousand years;
And at the end was nothing for them all,
For all that splendour of sceptres and of spears,
But a new step, another easy fall.

“The smile of stone seemed but a little less,
The load of silver but a little more:
And ever was that terraced wilderness
And falling plain paved like a palace floor.

“Rust red as gore crawled on their arms of might
And on their faces wrinkles and not scars:
Till the dream suddenly ended; noise and light
Loosened the tyranny of the tropic stars.

“But over them like a subterranean sun
I saw the sign of all the fiends that fell;
And a wild voice cried “Hasten and be done,
Is there no steepness in the stairs of hell?”
— G.K.Chesterton, “Nightmare” (excerpt), 1922

Deb: I have heard Greear recommend reading The Institutes in one of his sermons.

OMG. I read The Institutes for “light reading” when I was in law school, because I was crazy. I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone unless they have a background in the history of early Protestantism and Catholicism at the time of the Reformation. And, nope, I didn’t have either of those things in my background, so The Institutes didn’t make a whole lot of sense to me.

okrapod: Not his local bishop.De Sales was born a few years after Calvin died. Same location.

Ah, thanks.

Lydia: Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
Here is a real life Handmaidens tale. It’s not Christian based, though.

Sounds as much like the unholy spawn of Gorian fanboys and online Incels as it does Handmaid’s Tale.

BRANDING THE CULT FOUNDER’S INITIALS ON THE WOMAN’S CROTCH? REALLY?

Article Excerpt:
Led by Keith Raniere, NXIVM has been accused of vile crimes within a sub-sorority known as “Dominus Obsequious Sororium,” which loosely translates to “master over slave women.”

The indictment against Mack and Raniere charge the leader and his second in command with sex trafficking, sex trafficking conspiracy, and forced labor conspiracy.

And here is the Wikipedia page on the cult:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NXIVM
MLM pyramid scheme, a lot like a crossbreed of Amway and Scientology (Celebrity spokeshole and all) with an acronym for a name.

Ken A: So for what ever reason the faith wasn’t passed on to the next generation that I could see any way.

When I left SBC for FWB the local SBC churches (only two) right before the CR had attendance but nothing that I thought was actual substantive christianity. I had children that I did not want raised in that sort of thing.

I have said before here that there were problems before CR, but I guess one had to be there to believe it. The churches that I knew at the time were spiritually sick but not actually dying-anemic, diluted, puny, pick a word-riddled with the shifting secular ideas of the day. Said ideas we would today be calling politically correct like let’s ignore adultery, let’s say that Jesus did not heal the sick much less raise the dead, and let’s coexist rather than dig in and declare the essentiality of Jesus. And for goodness sake let’s not get our lives in shape because that would be ‘works’ and stay away from the charismatic movement because that is ‘crazy’ and quit taking things too seriously because that would be ‘fundamentalist’ and ‘judge not’ and in sex ed let’s tell the kids not just the facts but overlook it when they turn it into a lab course. But hey isn’t it all fun now that we are free from old ideas and restrictive ‘laws’.

And I said no. Just no. We are out of here. Then came the CR, except I did not know it since we were off the beaten path in a small town, so we never went back to SBC. And thus we were delivered from the soon to follow neo-Cal disaster. But I absolutely do see why people took up with the CR. That would be those who felt like I did but who stayed with SBC none the less and welcomed reform. And the next generation of SBC kids grew up with it. Back to the bible sounded good. Who knew in the beginning what some folks were planning to do with the bible once they went back to it.

Samuel Conner: I’m afraid it’s considerably worse that that. Historically, Calvinists have tended to affirm that the sight of the sufferings of the damned will increase the blessedness of the elect.

This actually has a name: THE ABOMINABLE FANCY.

Dave Ramsey has for years pushed the idea of tithing 10% of one’s gross income, something Larry Burkett did for years before his passing. It’s one of the things that eventually turned me off of Ramsey.

NJ: Dave Ramsey has for years pushed the idea of tithing 10% of one’s gross income

Yes! I forgot about that part.

Mostly I stopped following him on facebook because he was yammering about how spouses MUST have joint bank accounts, yadayadayada. And it was every other post for a while – completely irrelevant to me. And then his followers, if you tried to talk about doing some sort of value analysis on a new cheap car verses an older expensive car, would just flip out and repeat what dave said. Used cars only. No math allowed, I guess. Meh.

Lea:
Headless Unicorn Guy,

I’ve seen this referenced before and I’m always stumped at Allison Mack – the actress? Yes. Crazy!

Scientology already snapped up Tom Cruise and John Travolta; NXIVM had to settle for what was left.

also Big Name Celebrities.

Muslin fka Deana Holmes: That’s so amazingly cruel, I’d rather go to hell than endorse a god who would take love and pity from people.

Theirs is a cruel and petulant god.
How can you expect anything different in the way of attributes, mores, and deeds?

Ken A,

All I can say is it seemed there was REAL church autonomy back then. It wasn’t top down as it is today. The local associations could kick out churches but I never heard of it happening. Pastors were seen more as employees than god’s. There were a few large church powerful pastors but they pretty much just ruled their own roost. And large back then meant 600 people. Lol. It’s the authoritarian control and constant social engineering into private lives that blows my mind, now. I can’t figure out if we became dumber as a people and need a guru or if it’s just a celebrity culture thing?

Ray Wickham,

What do they mean “supporting immigrants”. Does that include illegals? Does that mean open borders? Does that mean amnesty? Does that mean free food and health care?

Headless Unicorn Guy,

Except the Objectivists could all fit in one NYC apt and the Communists were international. 🙂

Max: Oh yeah!As soon as you get the Tweet, get your behinds out of the coffee shop and back to the convention center to vote for Greear!!

For you traditional non-Calvinist Southern Baptists, it’s best to put your behind in your past.This ain’t your grandma’s SBC any longer.The youth department is now in charge!

Pew sitters barely go like they used to years ago. It’s mostly church staffers and insider pastor yes people. I wonder if all the denominational entity employees represent their churches and vote. The Neo Cal/SJW wing is adamantly opposed to localized online voting. (like groups meeting at their local association or convention office is watching the streamline and voting). So it’s become sort of entrenched establishment elite bureaucrats like it is in DC.

Muslin fka Deana Holmes: This seems to be a regular thing throughout the centuries, from Tertullian to today’s theologians. “…love and pity for hell’s occupants will not enter our hearts.” (J.I. Packer in Christianity Today, 2002)

That’s so amazingly cruel, I’d rather go to hell than endorse a god who would take love and pity from people.

I dunno. I have mixed feelings. My father was an abusive psychopath who loved getting people to pity him even as he beat my mom and abused me. He died in good standing in his ACNA church. He was also in good standing with Dr. Kim Riddlebarger’s church before he moved out of the area. He had an arrest record for what he’s done to my mom, and people pitied *him*, including his church. He slandered me and my mom in multiple churches and destroyed our reputations. He left us to go homeless when I was 19. My mom is disabled. He got away with all of it. No true remorse. He’s committed adultery, the works. Total sex addict. No church ever cared. If caught, he pulled out the pity card.

To the end, he never truly apologized to me or my mother. He wrote emotionally abusive letters to us every year until his death. Letters that contained blanket apologies meant to manipulate us, but no specific events or behaviors for which he was sorry. And in the same letter, while pretending to be nice and gracious to us, using personal information against us as a dagger to drive into the heart and twist. The old line from him, “I’m proud of you, but you’re still not good enough because you’re not married, or you don’t have a house, or fill in the blank, and you need me to fix up your wretched life.”

I tried to plead with him years ago by mail, as a last letter to him, to repent for real. Instead he played the victim and he and his entire family whined about how mean and unforgiving I was to go no contact, after years of taking more and more financial and emotional abuse from him.

He had his chance. If he’s in hell, it’s not for lack of warning or pleading with him. On the one hand, I don’t relish a creature’s suffering. For example, I hate and fear cockroaches, but even I can pity them and their pain when their squished or exterminated. On the other hand, what sort of creature is someone like my father? Is he even human anymore? He seemed up to the end hard-hearted towards evil. Why would that change just because he died? He received so much grace and so many chances, and yet he spat in the face of all of it repeatedly, and harmed me and my mother up to the end. His lack of apology when he died abused me all over again, one last time.

There is a part of me that hopes no one will pity him any longer. He has had so much pity and so many free passes. He could have murdered us in the middle of church, and he’d somehow manage to get everyone to pity him and blame us for it.

It wouldn’t be justice if everyone (including God) just kept pitying him. Why can’t I or my mom have pity? Why are we so undeserving of it after all we’ve been through? When is it our turn? I don’t want him to fry per se. I just want him far, far away from me, so that I don’t have to be around him ever again. And I want public vindication from all the slander. I want him exposed for what he did to us. Whatever happens in the afterlife, I don’t want him pitied *even more*.

You say you’d rather go to hell than endorse a god who would take love and pity from people. But I’d say it’s a living hell already to think that God and everyone else loves and pities a psychopath who has had so many chances and so much pity already. Because “love” and pity for them comes at the expense of their victims. I’ve never received such love from anyone in my life that my psychopath father has received. I get no free passes. I can go die in a gutter for all anyone at various churches or on my father’s side of the family cares. My father has been coddled so much already. Why can’t people pity the victims of the evil people, instead of pitying evil people who dug it for themselves and who wouldn’t turn back from their evil ways even though some people pleaded with them?

I hope that perspective makes sense.

ishy: It was not until I came to an egalitarian church that I finally felt like I was treated like a whole person, though.

I was never treated terribly anywhere, but yes. It makes a huge, huge difference to be in an egalitarian church. I will never go backwards on this.

Clockwork Angel,

Totally understand your comment! In fact, I got to the point that when ignorant people told me to pity, forgive and pray for the evil sociopathic narcissistic people I knew for a fact harmed others, I just considered them part of the problem and knew to avoid them like the plague. I can’t change them. First of all, few people at church (including pastors) understand forgiveness. What is forgiveness if there is no acknowledgement of the wrongs done. Right? Pretend it’s not happening? It could be walking away. Forgiveness doesn’t mean automatic Fellowship. It could even mean you don’t seek to avenge but walk away. Why is it Christians think it’s healthy to be around such toxicity to prove you are long suffering and just persecuted which is required for an extra crown or something. My fav is, “you are a sinner, too”. Sigh.

Sociopaths are the first to use your Christianity against you. Frankly, I don’t view God as that unreasonable. I am big believer in free will. God doesn’t choose for us. We decide how we carry His image. I don’t view “being human” as an excuse to do evil to others. I think the more evil we are, the less human we are. I don’t think our existence is sin. But many do. They see all people in one big category of automatically guilty sinners. I think God values you too much (and expects you to value yourself) to expect you to continue putting up with such vile treatment.

It’s impossible to balance justice and mercy as it is usually taught today. But I do think mercy reigns when admitting the evil and having serious remorse. Jesus preached belief AND metanoia for salvation. It is conditional and metanoia is NOT works. It’s living out the ‘new creation’. Sadly, I think most of the institutional church gets it totally backwards. One of my favorite admonitions in scripture is to be blameless which denotes actionable behavior. . It helps if you are dealing with reasonable people who understand the difference between basic disagreement and actual “actions” or deeds. That is getting rare these days, too. You have lived a horror. Or what I call a “black OP” because it was someone else’s alternative reality you were sucked into.

I pray for you a long life of peace and truth.

Lydia,

I will have to take your word for it. I couldn’t know how it was before the CR as to local church autonomy. I am not of the opinion now that the denomination has much to do with the church that I belong to now. We support the cooperative program and contribute to Lottie Moon. They don’t have any effect on us other than that, that I am aware of. I support the IMB. I don’t really like the rest of the SBC. It has no effect on my life.

refugee: Then there was the commenter who equates racism with supporting homosexuality and women as senior pastors…

I will have to look for that.

I thought this was an interesting juxtaposition in the actual statement:
“The basis of MY decision, however, arises out of something that I hope unites us all.

Last Fall our board initiated a review of the seminary’s financial condition.”

(I know he goes on to say other stuff, not just about finances)

refugee,

Just saw it!

From the comments: “that puts these people in the same category as churches supporting women senior pastors, homosexuality, and racism.”

*One of these things is not like the others…* (actually they are completely different)

Ken A,

He is Calvinist, though he claims to be a four-point Calvinist. Mohler would have never put him there if he wasn’t Calvinist and that was a huge issue when he was appointed to SEBTS. He acted quite a bit more New Cal early in SEBTS’ years, and I’ve heard he is more balanced now, but he is still a Calvinist. And no one could be appointed chancellor to an SBC seminary unless they were a strong complementarian.

https://founders.org/2006/03/06/danny-akin-on-southern-baptists-and-calvinism/

Lea:
refugee,

Just saw it!

From the comments: “that puts these people in the same category as churches supporting women senior pastors, homosexuality, and racism.”

*One of these things is not like the others…* (actually they are completely different.

Note the invocation of Teh Fag Card in the comment.

“Homosexuality — just the mention of the word is sufficient to induce — PANIC!”
— paraphrase of a narration scene from Attack of the Killer Tomatoes

Drstevej,

I had a cousin that tried everything to get out of having to do, so get a letter from her dentist, three different doctors, and actually went to a psychiatrist and got a letter trying to get relief, but alas to graduate she finally put on her big girls pants and did it….

Benn,

I never understood why they were so insistent on completing that training. BTW, when I was at GT there were only 200 female students.

Benn,

I googled this…

If you wanted to learn how to survive in the water, Georgia Tech had just the course for you. From 1940 until 1987, drownproofing, a method for surviving in the water for long periods of time, was a required course for Georgia Tech students. Coach Freddy Lanoue, who taught the class until the mid-1960s, developed the drownproofing technique in response to events happening in the world at that time. He indicated that more navy sailors had drowned during World War II than were killed by artillery fire because they could not survive in the water for long periods of time if their ship was sunk.

__

“Issuing A Wake-up Call To Da SBC, Perhaps?”

hmmm…

https://youtu.be/0JrlKcoD1Qw

SKREEEEEEEEEETCH!

Showing kind church folk what J.D. Greear apparently doesn’t want them to see, —a Christian church without Calvinism…

(grin)

Sacred 501c3 cows going, going, gone; humility’s finest, —one at a time…

Romeo Foxtrot, shall we dance?

hahahahahaha

Have they forgotten the widow’s mite?

“You nullify the word of God in favor of your tradition that you have handed on. And you do many such things…” -Jesus

(sadface)

Sòpy
—-
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE5MXYhR4-g

;~)

– –

ishy,

It is a nice comment on Akins article. Thanks.
I prefer particular redemption. It has a specific design. I would also say that the sacrifice of Christ is sufficient for the whole world of sinners, if they would come.
Don’t others limit the atonement in that , if it was designed to save all, it certainly doesn’t save all?
I always come back to the book of Acts saying over and over something like, “all who were appointed believed.”

Here is the Twitter thread from J.D. Greear posting the link to his article. Several survivors/advocates have posted comments and critiques:

https://twitter.com/jdgreear/status/1007321908101120000?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

From *Religion News Service*: Southern Baptists mull what’s next on confronting, preventing abuse, by Adelle M. Banks. This extensive article covers SBC news, plus already announced and possible plans for addressing issues of abuse.

https://religionnews.com/2018/06/14/southern-baptists-mull-whats-next-on-confronting-preventing-abuse/

emily honey,

Yes, I completely agree with all you’ve said in your comment. My posting the links was not an endorsement of what they’re doing. Just information that gives indicators of where they’re at — or think they’re at.

I expect there to be intense scrutiny from secular media, some Christian news media, and survivor communities precisely because numerous prominent SBC individuals and agencies have lost trust on this and other relevant issues. If the SBC has *any* experts, they are the women and men that have been ridiculed and marginalized for years. So, if the SBC wants credibility, they need to take care of things in a completely different way. And they owe a number of people a major apology and to make things right …

emily honey,

🙂

Two of the five toxic church/ministry experiences I endured were in SBC churches (one of them a Nehemiah Project church plant), and I worked at Golden Gate Seminary from 1996-2007, so I have a *lot* of “thoughts” on where the SBC is at, and will likely keep tracking how this all plays out. And it looks like from today’s Twitter comments from abuse survivors, advocates, and activists that a whole lot of other people will be as well.

Ken F (aka Tweed),

You’re on to something. After ten years of training cross cultural workers in the three areas of spiritual warfare (world, flesh, devil) I’ve learned a lot from other’s insights. Biggest revelation-“the World” (ie “human made systems in which a group of people act and think contrary to God’s character) is a huge part of the organized church worldwide. Some common worldly stuff in the American churches would include: top down CEO leadership, “bigger is better”, professional music/buildings will attract people, branding and franchising, formal education as the qualification for leadership.

All this to say, I think you’re right. Babylon isn’t necessarily a city or place, but the systems of this world which place people in power and control over others. Same as the tower of Babel where they said, “come, let US build and tower and let US make a name for ourselves.”

Max,

Thanks, Max, for investing in us with your wisdom. And happy gardening and blessings in all your other endeavors.

While it’s no relation to J.D.’s Summit ‘Stealth Baptist’ church, the church next door to mine (and many hundreds of miles away from the J.D. Summit) is a Summit ‘Stealth Baptist’ church. The Mother Summit church that “planted” it is in a larger city about 20 minutes away. Anyhow. A couple years ago, I realized those two churches that I had assumed were non-denom were very much SBC. I had been in the Mother Summit Church for an event and looked around while I was there. Availed myself of their ‘literature’, by which I mean their Sunday bulletin, visitor information brochures, children’s ministry info, etc. it was not obviously Baptist anywhere in their information. Something made me wonder if it was Baptist. Well. You have to poke around a bit on their website, but the persistent poker can find the affiliation.

A short time after my discovery, one of my church’s ministry staff mentioned Summit. We had a nice but very short exchange about the fact that it’s really SBC. He even said, “Most of their members don’t know they are SBC.” Indeed, he thought that a good thing. You see, he said, people have preconceived notions about denominations, so it’s a far, far better thing to not openly disclose it. Lotta people would never set foot in it if they knew it was SBC from the get-go. So it was a good, good thing, indeed. I asked why it was NOT a good thing to openly disclose denominational affiliation. Wouldn’t people feel they were being intentionally fooled when they found out? Not at all. Well, maybe some of the ol–uhh, that is, oldER people like me might, but young people like him don’t want to be hassled with that. They would rather not know. They want to join a church because they just like it. Never mind denominational ties or obligations. Not important. Only ol–ahem, that is, oldER folks like me care about that stuff.

So there you go. His 3.5 decades of wisdom schooled my 5.5 decades of ignorant, archaic notions about truth and disclosure. The young-uns prefer to enjoy their ignorance. Silly me. Wallowing in truthful details, openness, honesty,

And the ministry staff member? He eventually left our staff and our church. While I miss various positive things that he brought to our church body, I don’t at all miss his attitude of ‘I’m a young, hip dude, got my degree in church ministry, and you need to pay close attention so you too can become, well, not young–way too late for that–but enlightened.’

brad/futuristguy,

A few weeks ago, Greear was debating some guy on one of his Twitter threads about complementarianism, and I linked to that on this blog a few posts back. Greear never did respond to any of my tweets to him in that thread.

Dear Sam,

I’m praying for you and your family.

Trusting you and your prayer request to Jesus. He knows what is on your heart and what you have need of.

Trace

Daisy: Greear never did respond to any of my tweets to him in that thread.

That’s one way of “dealing with” women. Stonewall.
Can happen frequently at church, depending on the church. Women aren’t worthy.

Greear twittered several months ago about his mentor Bobby Roberson, an Independent Fundamental Baptist (IFB) preacher:

https://twitter.com/jdgreear/status/963222675777835009

“Bobby Roberson, beloved pastor of Gospel Light Baptist Church in Walkertown, NC, whose ministry had a big impact on me, passed away today…he planted then pastored GLBC for 60 years. That’s the way to do it.”

https://twitter.com/jdgreear/status/964579695223336961

“Honoring the legacy of Bobby Roberson of Gospel Light Baptist Church in Walkertown, NC, a man to whom I owe an eternal debt of gratitude…he taught me to cherish the gospel”

Max,

Dear Max,

I do so hope you will continue to write here. Although I am not really SBC, but rather a General Baptist from the UK, where the SBC does not exist, I joined an SBC church as My husband and I wanted to be Baptists. The first church we joined turned towards the NAR, the second we joined was taken over by a young pastor who went for John Macarthur’s elder led church polity, with the consequent patriarchal teaching, and so now we attend a tiny church, hoping to escape from all the shenanigans. The large mega church nearby, McLean Bible, has been taken over by the SBC with Platt at the helm.
We, like you, are seeking the Lord daily so that we spend the remaining time we have on this earth proclaiming the Saviour and serving Him in whatever way He wills. Your experience mirrors ours and therefore all that you say is of great value to us in encouragement. You have understood the dangers of calvinism, the evil of subordinationism, and the need to leave behind an institution like the SBC which is now run by authoritarian and rigid leaders. Thomas Helwys wrote about such people!

Muff Potter,

Et tu, Muff? Nothing about growing up in that horror? Doctrine over person?

refugee,

Thank you!

Lydia,

Good stuff.

BTW I am an annihilationist. Edward Fudge has written extensively on this examining what Scripture actually says. The loss to the wicked remains but Heaven is not sullied by pleasure in their suffering.

As far as forgiveness goes, without repentance on the part of the perpetrator, no reconciliation can take place. We ‘forgive’ by refusing to want revenge, by refusing to become like our adversary, and walking away from toxic people, leaving them the God. We are not responsible for them – we can leave them in His hands.

refugee,

There are many ironies at work, and the leaders of SBC institutions especially will have quite a bit of theological wrestling to do as they continue to be confronted with the practical (and harmful) implications of their beliefs. Will they do it? Remains to be seen.

okrapod,

I have another possible ideological connection with Greear’s establishment and the local IFB or former IFB folks.

At the local SBC mega is Gary Chapman of Love Languages fame, or naming a building after him at Moody fame, of marriage counseling long time experience, along with his wife. Gary is a long time pastor at SBC mega, one who has outlasted more than one senior pastor, and whom I believe to be the major power/influence in the preacher business at SBC mega. When Gary first came to town he did so a a teacher at the largest IFB complex around here, a place which was Piedmont Bible College at the time (IIRC) but they have enlarged and have further accreditation and just generally have upgraded. I have heard him preach, not just talk about his specialty, and he is one I would go listen to when I could because he is ‘solid’ in his doctrine in my opinion. And SBC mega practically bows before him, in ways of course which do not threaten the current pastor.

Will Toburen was a local boy who grew up at SBC mega and was long time on the staff and who was the assumed heir to the pulpit when the long time former pastor died. I have heard him preach. Another ‘solid’ person, in my opinion. Will did not get the job, so he took the job as Executive Pastor at Summit with Greear. Will has to have been influenced by Chapman, everybody there was. I have been influenced by him even from the outlying outskirts. And some of what these guys say rather rings a bell with me as being fundified-ish but without the awful excesses of some Baptist fundamentalism.

I have never heard Greear preach, but when he says that ‘yes’ he is SBC but ‘no’ since some things he is not into so much concerning SBC, I think–Hmmm. Where have I heard that before? Birds of a feather? And some of the feathers are very similar to IFB feathers. Not all, but some.

Disclaimer: I have been FWB fundamentalist but not IFB. However, my daughter’s first husband was an IFB missionary kid and I got a belly full of IFB from that family. I think that Baptist fundamentalisms are a mixed bag. What?? Yeah, I do. But also I think that I tend to know it when I see it pretty much.

Could Baptist fundamentalism influence be one missing piece of the puzzle as to what Greear thinks in some areas?

Lea: Also ‘fwb’ is an acronym that means one thing to me which is doubtless not what you meant here so I had to look…free will Baptist?

Free Will Baptist means more than one baptist denomination, whether fundamentalist of moderate. They grew out of the quarrel among early baptists about the atonement, whether it was general or particular. For whom did Jesus die, the elect only (particular) or everybody (general). They have been a small group, but they are not the only baptists who have (at least in the past) believed in general atonement.

Translation: arminian/either moderate or conservative/ SBC used to be like that. Alas!

Free will does not mean the individual and personal decisions about this or that concept or doctrine that people make. It means that when it comes to salvation the person has a choice to either accept or reject the offer of Christ for salvation. It does not belittle the role of grace, but it does resist the ideas of total depravity and irresistible grace. Nor does free will mean that people’s ‘will’ is not influenced by their circumstances (like maybe some jungle tribe that never heard the gospel) but it only means that when choice is an option one can choose one way or the other.

Think SBC in my youth. Think the Methodists and the majority of Christianity, to the extent that I understand what people are saying.

okrapod,

Oop, One more thing. The issue of apostasy. Does one lose one’s freedom of choice? They say no, mostly but not exclusively based on Hebrews 6, that one can apostatize-can deny Christ. They think that all the assurances of the faithfulness of Christ toward those who believe are true, but that those promises do not prevent the person from outright apostasy if the person chooses to do that.

In other words, they do not believe in once-saved-always-saved. They do not think that this or that sin automatically puts one in the position of an apostate-not remotely-but they do think that one maintains freedom to choose to leave from following Christ and that God lets them do that.

This is where they differ from even the old style SBC, the issue of eternal security.

brad/futuristguy,

I highly doubt any of it will happen.

They’re too defensive – their identities are enmeshed/conflated with “SBC” (whatever that means).

It’s a major reason why I left.

truthseeker00: Yep, these folks even dare to offer multiple meanings to the word ‘is’.

One difficulty for me has been that actually there is more than one meaning for the word ‘is’ and for all his chicanery the one whom you seem to be referencing was technically correct.

Once I set out to make a list of the different nuances of meaning for the word ‘up’ and the list not only got quite long, but also some of the meanings were almost opposite. And the synonyms, at least based on usage, can appear to be opposites. For example, a house fire may result in the house burning down and all its contents burning up. So, consumed by fire may be either up or down or both.

Not to forget to mention the many uses of the word ‘fire’ which could mean the aforementioned house or could mean intense enthusiasm or even young love.

@emily and @truthseeker00.

I have no huge hopes that SBC leaders will do the substantive things that need to be done. Still, this is a providential moment in which they have been called out for months in a row about a disastrous past and still disastrous present. This past week, the one blog post that most put that on display, IMO, was this one: “No More Covering Up Abuse or Covering for Abusers–a Plea for Churches,” by Sheila Gregoire.

https://tolovehonorandvacuum.com/2018/06/sbc-and-women-for-such-a-time-as-this/

It serves as a virtual checklist for many major instances of abusive theologies and activities from Southern Baptist leaders, some of these situations still unresolved, unrepented from, unapologized for. She’s given those who care to keep watching a list of indicators that past problems – of both traditionals and Neo-Calvinists – have been addressed.

So, if nothing happens, nothing happens. But I do believe in the necessity of putting the spotlight on them to expose the realities of either their move toward compassion or their remaining in complacency, and remove any excuse.

Lea: They all do it. All Comp guys do it (equal in essence but not role). It’s not Calvinist doublespeak, it’s just plain old deception.

As cataloged by Lewis in Screwtape Letters and Orwell in “The Principles of Newspeak”.

Samuel Conner: Wright also argues, contra very common “man in the pew” conceptions, that the Christian hope is not that we “go to heaven after we die”, but that we will be raised from the dead into a new form of incorruptible embodied life, like Jesus’ resurrection body, and that we will dwell in a renewed Earth, not in a disembodied heavenly spiritual realm.

Wasn’t that the original Christian afterlife, before the “Intermediate State” (required for continuity of the individual between mortal life and Resurrected) metastasized into Fluffy Cloud Heaven?

okrapod: Pertinent to more than one idea here. J Vernon McGee is one whose radio talks came on the radio while I was sitting in the kiddie school car pickup line for years. And yes he was a Presby calvinist, but he had some good ideas. One quote from him that I found on line is that he said that God created the universe and has a plan for it. He goes on to say that you (generic) may have a better plan, but you don’t have a universe.

That sounds like J Vernon McGee…

Back when I was listening to Christianese AM radio in the Seventies, he was the one radio preacher who made the most sense. Not pretentious at all, just “Here I am, here’s what I’m doing”. Sometimes you wanted to shout at the radio “You’re wrong on that point, McGee!”, but you couldn’t help but like the old guy.

To this day, when I hear “How Firm a Foundation” as a Processional hymn at St Boniface, I half expect to hear “Through the Bible, with J Vernon McGee…” coming in as a voice-over after the first verse.

truthseeker00: apart from the few crumbs of (often illusory) concession to appease the unruly crowds.

Fog machines, hip worship music teams, 27 year old ‘elders’ with the Bluto look (3-4 days without a razor?) in skinny jeans.
Bread and circuses.
Cash-flow wise, it’s not sustainable.

Headless Unicorn Guy: Wasn’t that the original Christian afterlife, before the “Intermediate State” (required for continuity of the individual between mortal life and Resurrected) metastasized into Fluffy Cloud Heaven?

I don’t know, but since I am apparently about to find out sooner rather than later, I have my preferences. I would rather that the dead are just dead, and as someone has said that the dead do not know that they are dead, and then at some point the resurrection. That would be rather like one possible understanding of what the angelic messenger said to Daniel about ‘rest’ then resurrection. I really do not look forward to some existence of just hanging around waiting for something to happen.

Max,

Thanks so much for your words of wisdom. I hope you continue to check in and share with us. Otherwise, enjoy your life.

Headless Unicorn Guy: Wasn’t that the original Christian afterlife, before the “Intermediate State” (required for continuity of the individual between mortal life and Resurrected) metastasized into Fluffy Cloud Heaven?

Yes. NTW argues that the “metastasis”, as you put it, has had the effect of Platonizing christian eschatology. Its arguably one of the ways that the pagan Greek world influenced the early Church (and through it, the later churches down to the present). When Paul speaks of the Gospel being “foolishness to the Greeks”, it’s probably “resurrection” that he has in mind. To Greek philosophy, the world of matter was inferior to the world of spirit and no-one in his right mind, having in death been liberated from “the prison of the physical body”, would want to be returned to physical embodiment of any kind.

Samuel Conner: Yes. NTW argues that the “metastasis”, as you put it, has had the effect of Platonizing christian eschatology.

JMJ/Christian Monist covered that exact subject (“Platonic Dualism”) a lot on his old blog and in his book Butterfiles in the Belfry, Serpents in the Cellar.

truthseeker00: I pity the naive SBC pew, which have no idea what’s coming.

“It Can Happen Here” reviews 3 takes on “the pew” as it were, the ordinary folk living normal lives – some say their happiest years – during the Holocaust.

“In their different ways, Mayer, Haffner, and Jarausch show how habituation, confusion, distraction, self-interest, fear, rationalization, and a sense of personal powerlessness make terrible things possible. They call attention to the importance of individual actions of conscience both small and large, by people who never make it into the history books.”

The tie-in? The rise of authoritarianism, mentioned by several here on this thread.

The ten Boom family did their part, as did Bonhoeffer. Maybe it is up to the rest of us to acknowledge women, for example, in the Church, just as the institutions in “their happiest most profitable years” progress in gas lighting and stonewalling.

brad/futuristguy: an entire black-or-white paradigm that leads to hierarchy and authoritarianism/submission and forms of legalism that crush the spirit.

… crush the Spirit.

okrapod:
Samuel Conner,

Jesus seems to have differentiated between physical and spiritual bodies in his statement about what is sown is physical…Do you have any thoughts on that?

From my own viewpoint I tend to see the quibble between what is a ‘bodily’ resurrection as opposed to perhaps the disciples were having either visions or mass hysteria or something to have a potential answer that what they were seeing was a ‘spiritual body’ which had different aspects and possibilities than a physical body has.

The fact that the early church may have come to other conclusions does not carry much weight on this idea for me unless and until I get more evidence of some sort as to what a spiritual body might actually be.St. Aloyisious of the Aqueduct or such is entitled to his own opinion but he is not entitled to my opinion without adequate biblical correlation or even some scientific explanation.

I can’t do the subject justice — consider reading Wright’s “The Resurrection of the Son of God.”

In 1 Cor 15, in his extended discussion of the resurrection, Paul makes the statement that you reference at the beginning. The specific text in question, 1 Cor 15:44 makes the contrast between the “psuchikon” body that dies and the “pneumatikon” body that is raised.
It comes down to how you understand these two terms. See Wright for an extended discussion.

I don’t read Greek with any facility and have to use the various props to which laymen resort at need. But I’ll note that even in the English translations, there are hints in the context that 1 Cor 15:44 is not a contrast between “material” and “non-material” bodies. In the prior verses, Paul uses as illustrations the various kinds of bodies that created things have. There are different forms of embodiment, but they are all forms of embodiment. And there is an explicit parallel in 15:42, where the contrast in between the death of the corruptible body and the resurrection of the incorruptible body. In the Gospel accounts of the Resurrection, Jesus seemed anxious to assure His frightened disciples that He was not a mere departed spirit, but in fact was “raised from the dead” into new embodiment.

That’s probably not persuasive; much better to examine Wright’s book, which surveys 1st century ideas about afterlife in both the Jewish and Greek worlds and shows that the present-day “man in the pew” idea of spirit life after death is much more Greek than Jewish. Again, the Greeks believed in spirit survival. What they found foolish, and indeed undesirable, was the idea of returning to bodily form after having escaped it through death.

Ya’ll, Al Mohler is apparently on the Jordan Peterson Train? Is this real life?

per twitter:
“The Jordan Peterson event last night did not disappoint. He is a formidable public intellectual. Stay tuned to #TheBriefing and my website in coming days for a review and response”

This guy is the most smartest Christian ever? Really? Like, really? #lowstandards

Lea: This guy is the most smartest Christian ever? Really? Like, really? #lowstandards

A friend used to say James Dobson was the smartest Christian ever as she tuned in daily.

brad/futuristguy,

I appreciate your work that you do. I encourage you (and others here) to keep writing and speaking in whatever ways to help bring about change. (Also, Max, please don’t leave! 🙁 )

This is just me piggy backing off your comments and you would likely agree and have said much about this:

It’s definitely correct paradigm shifts don’t happen quickly, this is true from an academic and intellectual perspective, and unfortunately – experientially as well. Unfortunately, I know what it *feels* like to live with that reality for years, the “it takes time”. For many people, justice never comes. At least not in their lifetime. Sometimes there is the tease or appearance of it, only to be followed by heartbreak and re-traumatization. Which is why I think a theology and philosophy of judgment and restoration, resurrection, and the ultimate paradigm shifter – Jesus – offered in Christianity, is so compelling.

Paradigm shifts don’t happen quickly in lots of systems – family, government, church, business, etc. Sometimes it never happens. Sometimes it takes generations. Sometimes it happens in a surprisingly quick way.

Yet even in the Yoder case there is still a lot of unresolved trauma and enablement and debate still occuring. (I’ve only very loosely followed it.)

I think that often the paradigm shift occurs in the individual and then finding a community that has and is going in the same direction. And then that individual becomes more transformed into that new paradigm the more they engage with others who are following the paradigm shift. (I think this is ultimately what the church and the kingdom of heaven is about, here. With Jesus and the Holy Spirit being the incarnate and indwelling Paradigm Shifters themselves.)

The dysfunctional or damaging individual or group then has to do the same if they want to truly live. They have to give up their life to find it. The SBC needs to die in a lot of ways, in order to live. Then resurrect as something else, as something new.

I hope they do.

Samuel Conner,

Yeah. I used to read Wright quite a bit, not the one you suggested but I did read his thing about life after life after death, but I am so burned out on Wright that I put him aside a couple of years ago. I got to where I thought he was just making stuff up as he went along perhaps to maintain his reputation as an original thinker or perhaps because his extensive output had drained him dry and he needed new ideas wherever he could find them. I am sure that is probably too harsh, but he lost me on one or more of his excursions into whoever-thought-that land.

Some folks are now having a recurrence of the discussions as to whether there actually was a resurrection or whether the disciples were experiencing or thinking that they were experiencing something entirely different. The closest answer I have seen is the assurance by just about all that the consensus is that the disciples themselves were convinced that Jesus was resurrected.

Beyond that it seems to be just conjecture. Most of the conjectures are so repugnant to me that I hope to hope that they are incorrect, and no doubt that is a bias which affects my thinking on the subject. Well, nothing I can do about it so time to move on.

okrapod: I really do not look forward to some existence of just hanging around waiting for something to happen.

While I do hesitate to respond. Since I know how good you are at research and such a good thinker. Still this seems sad to me. “To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord”. Don’t get me wrong. I am no looking forward to leave this earth sooner rather than later. I still have things on earth I want to do. There is a grandchild now! I want to be here with and for my family. But as I look to the next life, I look so forward to being with my Savior. He loved me when I wasn’t lovely. He paid a price I couldn’t pay. He sends the blessing every day of which, I deserve none. I want to be with Him. I don’t think it will be boring. I think I will have plenty to do there, bodily or not. I think I will be overly joyful in doing it. “Eye has not seen ear has not heard, what God has prepared for those who love him.” Humbly submitted.

So, as I’ve noticed before, ethanol is quite good for treating chronic cramp in a neck muscle.

I should drink more of it.

Lydia: Et tu, Muff? Nothing about growing up in that horror? Doctrine over person?

I was raised Lutheran in the Southeast corner of Wisconsin. I go back far enough (as a little kid) to remember when Lutheran pastors still wore the cassock on high holy days. Back then you couldn’t tell Pastor Sorensen from Father Doyle the Jesuit on high holy days.

In that land of ago, Church, Catholic Mass, and Shabbat for the Jews was just something you did in your respective faith community, it had its own separate sphere from the rest of everyday weekly life.

Sure there was doctrine, but you didn’t get beat over the head with it.

I have no lurid accounts of abuse or clergy malfeasance, if anything, I have fond childhood memories, especially Velma Albrecht’s split-pea soup at the Wednesday night soup suppers.

So, in answer to your query, the only time I experienced doctrine over person-hood was when I was a Calvary Chapelite. The cognitive dissonance along with the endless hamster wheel of what it is to be a ‘Biblical Christian’ got to be too much and so I exited their religion. I haven’t looked back.

okrapod: Samuel Conner,
Jesus seems to have differentiated between physical and spiritual bodies in his statement about what is sown is physical…Do you have any thoughts on that?

All I know is that the term “spiritual body” seems to attract a lot of Woo-Woo these days, trying to explain what is probably unexplainable (at least with the minimal source material we have). Lotsa crackpots out there who’ll tell you exactly what it means.

okrapod,

I do.

Headless Unicorn Guy,

A lot of times it is other women who get in the way and block the voices of women whom the system wasn’t so kind to. It worked fine for them so there obviously isn’t really a deep problem, or they were able to rise above the problems (which isn’t true – if they truly faced and understood the problems the only holy response is to confront it head on and not enable it, so there’s no such thing as “rising above” unless you leave), and so on.

jyjames: A friend used to say James Dobson was the smartest Christian ever as she tuned in daily.

The same Dobson who bragged about beating his little dachshund with a belt to show her who’s boss?
If he can do that, he probably has no qualms about about tearing a nursing baby away from its mother either.

drJ:
Deb,

Deb, I think that a distinction between Neo-Cals and Calvin and reformed needs to be made.If I recall correctly J.D. Grear didn’t list Calvin’s Institutes on his recommended reading list.Most neo-cals read someone else’s interpretation of Calvin or Edwards etc.For instance, in neo-cal circles Piper is viewed as a Jonathan Edwards scholar, but in the mainstream academic circles Piper’s books on Edwards are castigated and ignored because he isn’t an Edwards scholar.(He probably doesn’t really understand Edwards.)Calvin wrote his institutes to the King of France to defend protestantism, specifically to show how the reformed Protestants held to the Apostle’s creed.How many neo-cal churches recite the Apostle’s Creed (or Nicene Creed) in their Sunday services.I suspect if Calvin were alive today his practice or religion would look more like Post Vatican II Roman Catholicism than TGC or 9Marks.

I think you are correct in your estimation of what Calvin would resemble today.

I see Reformed Theology as an ongoing creation. Each generation receives, interprets and passes on something of itself.

Paradigm shifts don’t happen quickly in lots of systems – family, government, church, business, etc. Sometimes it never happens. Sometimes it takes generations. Sometimes it happens in a surprisingly quick way.

Great point here! Sort of like Malcolm Gladwell’s Tipping Point idea. When something is there for a while, but at some point it reaches into the general consciousness and then all of a sudden it’s everywhere.

I wrote the piece that Brad referenced, and I am praying that we are in a tipping point right now. I just hope that people see that it’s more than just about abuse, but about the whole system that says that women are not even fully in God’s image, and that men “need to get them ready for heaven” or whatever.

No, we are fully saved, fully gifted, and fully equipped.

I think people are seeing that the way we talk about marriage, family, and abuse isn’t working. Just read Gary Thomas’ new book about it (it’s not out yet; I read an advanced copy) and it’s awesome. I believe The Tipping Point is coming!

Sheila Gregoire,

Yes!

Your blog post is spot on. Thanks for writing it. The rewriting history and rebranding the narrative will not lead to everlasting change. The questions you are asking are the very ones that need answers.

*I guess I shouldn’t really say *never* in regard to justice coming about, as in the Chrisitian story there is “that day” we hope in. But many will never see justice over abuse or mistreatment outside of that day – which is what I was alluding to when I used the category of never.

Sheila Gregoire: Paradigm shifts don’t happen quickly in lots of systems – family, government, church, business, etc. Sometimes it never happens. Sometimes it takes generations. Sometimes it happens in a surprisingly quick way.

#1. To follow up what you said, @emily honey about paradigm shifts, and what @Sheila Gregoire said about hopefully being at a tipping point, I’d add that one of the tools I learned in strategic foresight (futuring studies) is STEEPER. This deals with the order things tend to change. Here’s a copy-and-paste section from a post on that topic.

https://futuristguy.wordpress.com/opal-design-systems-files/opal-connection-zone/

26. Trend-Tracking: Fads, Short-Term Trends, and Drivers of Change

Futurists keep up with diverse aspects of societies, and especially look to discern what is changing. This is done through a technique called “environmental scanning,” which assumes that the order things tend to change in a culture can be captured by the acronym STEEPER. So, like a chain of dominoes, once a significant cultural change occurs in Society, Technology tends to follow suit. As Technology changes, that impacts the Environment, and all of the above start working themselves out in terms of changes for individuals and groups in their Existential (identity) issues. As more people’s lives are affected by what started as a social change, the last three areas to follow suit are, in this order, Politics, Education, and Religion. These final three are the most “conservative” in terms of how tenaciously they cling to the ways of the past. (Sidenote: After working at a seminary for over a decade, I have to wonder if combining Religious Education intensifies the sluggishness of transitions …)

The trick with trend-tracking comes not so much in identifying social changes, but in discerning which are just pop culture fads (probably two years or less of social influence); which cultural trends have short-term impact (at least five to 10 years of influence); and which are “drivers” of long-term, deep-level change (50 years or more).

This concept is especially important to us: We are smack dab in the middle of a confusing era with substantial changes globally in prevailing paradigms and contemporary cultures. This level of upheaval has happened in Western civilization only three times since the founding of classical Greek culture over 2,500 years ago. Could this mean that missional models will be “drivers” within the next primary paradigm, while emerging and multi-campus churches and church planting movements prove themselves to be mere faddish blips on the seismographs of social change? Whatever “wins” has crucial consequences for how we interact in our cultures.

brad/futuristguy,

#3. So … putting some of those concepts together, the big question is, “Are #MeToo and #ChurchToo ‘drivers of change,’ or just mere fads?”

If they are drivers of change (and I suspect they are), then the underlying concepts of PARITY in the value of women and men; girls and boys; will be taken as a given in next generations. So will EQUITY in seeking dignity of individuals, and justice and fairness in society, for all.

Why do I think these are drivers of change? I have been observing many dimensions of abuse survivor issues for over 40 years — basically my entire adult life. Much of that interest comes from being supportive of my sister’s ministries — as a theological conservative/evangelical Christian. Romae [pronounced row-MAY] began with support for domestic violence survivors in the mid-1970s. She branched out from there to sexual assault survivors, rape crisis counseling, child abuse prevention training, and more. For more historical background, see this post:

https://futuristguy.wordpress.com/2018/04/29/domestic-violence-ministry-and-controversy-in-conservative-christianity-some-historical-context-and-perspective/

So, #MeToo and #ChurchToo did not just show up in 2017 out of a socio-cultural vacuum. There has been a long historical arc building up to Tarana Burke instigating #MeToo 10 years ago, which served as groundwork for the social explosion that happened in the wake of revelations about Harvey Weinstein.

The vast majority of the activist work of the last 45-50 years has been by women. Along the way, men have been adjuncts to this movement. (In terms of secular history, the so-called “first men’s movement” described pro-feminist men of the 1960s and ’70s.)

So, back to tipping points, I believe what we’re looking for are combinations of long-term trends that build toward change, along with catalyzing events that bring the need for change into the spotlight. With #MeToo, it was a merging of feminist activism, advocacy for women survivors of abuse and violence, investigative reporting on child abuse and systemic coverup (as in the film *Spotlight*) — and then Harvey Weinstein provided a catalyzing person with a series of women sharing their personal accounts and Ronan Farrow and others with key reportage.

Deb,

Wowzers, Deb … I really got on a roll there last night. As I started writing, I just kept seeing the many long-term trends and significant points in recent history coming together, and kept on going.

This could be “the perfect storm” for creating a platform for substantive change in the long run, in both society and Church. What will the Church do about it — and especially now the SBC?

* They are being exposed and cannot so easily escape the spotlight and go back into the dark.

* They have many perpetrators and perpetuators of abuse in their midst whom they must deal with.

* They have survivors whom their leaders and entities have further harmed, with whom they need to go through truth and reconciliation processes.

* They have many women and men who attempted to be of constructive help along the way but were instead rebuked, and should now be acknowledged and publicly apologized to.

If I had the opportunity to share one key message with newly-elected SBC president, J.D. Greear, I’d say this:

Getting the SBC house in order is essential to your whole-Gospel-to-the-whole-world mission of this day. Otherwise, you bring people into an environment poisoned by the antithesis of the Gospel. The track record in place shows the SBC has not had the corporate will to accomplish this before (but perhaps now could), and that it cannot do this from internal resources alone (because you haven’t). I believe many survivors would assist the SBC on abuse issues, if invited. Theologically-sound pastoral and organizational equipping resources are available. You don’t have to reinvent the wheel, only decide to engage the challenges of getting equipped and moving forward. Do you want our help?

Perhaps the speech given by Mary DeMuth at the For Such A Time As This Rally will be a source of clarification and encouragement in the challenging reconstruction ahead:

https://www.marydemuth.com/the-abused-the-church-must-do-better/

Lea: I don’t know. Many people have tried to explain the reasons but I think it mostly comes down to it just being easier. They don’t ask as much of them.

And if you feel pity for cockroaches, especially the flying ones, you are a better person than most. I’m glad you’re here.

Thanks! I’m glad you’re here too! 🙂

Lydia: I pray for you a long life of peace and truth.

Thank you! I could use the prayers. Bless you, Lydia!

Muff Potter: The only thing I could say in response is that I hope that the Almighty will take an enlightened approach in ensuring that such people can never hurt another living thing again.

Beyond that, I could never endorse horrific medieval torments (which was the original context of Muslin’s comment) for evil doers, my conscience won’t let me.

Yeah, I here ya. People seem to want a literal fire to torment people forever, but I think they miss the point. Take the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, for example. They aren’t even in their resurrected bodies yet, so how can the rich man be literally burning? I think it’s trying to convey that he spiritually thirsts, that he doesn’t have Jesus’ living water. I also suspect that any torment is self-inflicted. Imagine still craving all the things you wanted in life–power, control, riches, etc.–but not being able to have them anymore, least of all at someone else’s expense. A craving never satisfied might feel like burning alive on the inside after a while.