“…buying as many books as one’s credit card allows, all for the glory of God.”

Yep, that’s it in a nutshell!

Mahaney is circling the wagons and going into straight-up damage control. The cash cow’s about to run dry! Stay tuned!

“… buying as many books as one’s credit card allows …”

Do you reckon Mahaney’s book on humility will still be for sale at the conference? After all, this was an example of just how humble he is by exiting so graciously.

As I noted on the other TWW post on SGM today: False humility always tries to come across as taking the high road. Thousands of young reformers will buy it, as well as Mahaney’s book on humility which will probably be available at the conference.

Listen to CJ’s exact words:

“……without the distraction of having to defend me or answer questions about Sovereign Grace Churches….”

“I am responsible, where necessary and appropriate, to defend myself and Sovereign Grace…”

Is CJ saying that it’s all about him? (sigh) He sounds focused on defending his own honor instead of giving a —— about making the changes necessary to protect children.

Let’s keep the focus where it belongs—driving the wolves out of the church. If CJ isn’t willing to help with that—he’ll have a lot to answer to God for on judgment day. God isn’t going to accept all the excuses that CJ keeps inventing.

“No one should interpret my withdrawal as an acknowledgment of guilt.”

Nobody ever thought you were repenting or acknowledging wrong doing.

Thus why it’s so sad that this conference is sold out!

There is nothing God glorifying about “categorically rejecting the suggestion that I have ever conspired to cover up sexual abuse or other wrong-doing.”

God has been the one behind “the recent, renewed controversy surrounding Sovereign Grace Churches and me individually” … using the very credible, thorough and integrity filled woman Rachel Denhollander.

It must be an extra special awful to have such a public voice be not only a lawyer and from their own reformed camp but also a woman!! For this crowd of men, this is too much to handle. All signs that God is at work!!!

Rachel for President.

Together For the “… buying as many books as one’s credit card allows …”

Jerome wrote:

T3G… Our featured speakers are…Albert Mohler, Ligon Duncan, Mark Dever…special musical guest will be Bob Kauflin.”

Bob Kauflin is a soverign grace ministries big wig, right?
Place holder for C.J.?

Muslin fka Deana Holmes wrote:

So I’m still going to Louisville. This is a no-brainer.

Yep, there’s more than one rotten apple in that bushel.

Muslin fka Deana Holmes wrote:

And John Piper-his ideas about women range from odd (don’t be too muscular) to dangerous (put up with a season of abuse, then call the church, not the cops). The veiled contempt these men have had for women disqualifies them from speaking, IMHO.

So I’m still going to Louisville. This is a no-brainer.

I hope you make some signs with the weird stuff Piper says. That might even hurt the New Cal “We’re smarter than you” campaign to their own…

Max wrote:

Muslin fka Deana Holmes wrote:

So I’m still going to Louisville. This is a no-brainer.

Yep, there’s more than one rotten apple in that bushel.

Speaking of ‘rotten apples’, my very first thought when I read about this was, “One down, three to go.” But that’s not very “biblical”(TM) of me, is it?

ishy wrote:

Based on Mahaney’s overly-defensive posture in the notice, I think he was asked to step down.

It’s hard to say at this point. There are none in the T4G cast of characters who are indispensable for the good of the movement. Perhaps he is just a good poker player – know when to hold ’em, know when to fold ’em. He has re-invented himself a few times – he will still be around.

Root 66

Yep, there’s more than one rotten apple in that bushel.

Speaking of ‘rotten apples’, my very first thought when I read about this was, “One down, three to go.” But that’s not very “biblical”(TM) of me, is it?

It’s very biblical!

As Rachael Denhollander quoted in the bible (at the end of her detailed summary of all the SGM abuse) : “it’s time for judgement to start in the house of God” 1 Peter 4:17

I smell damage control.

It really would have blown up and the heat was already on all the guys sharing a stage & defending him.

The reality is, that until his defenders and T4G co-founders admit wrong doing with regard to supporting their buddy C.J. nobody will be forgetting the biggest sex abuse scandal and cover up in Evangelicalism.

It’s time for the other leaders to quit defending him. They need to call out his actions specifically. And repent for backing him up.

Pressuring to step out behind the scenes to take off the heat is not going to cut it anymore.

Christians are starting to wise up to these celebrity book writing cash lining pockets conferences that lack integrity.

Rachel has pulled back the curtain and there is a lot of men behind it saying “there is nothing to see here!”

It’s not working any longer.
The gig is up. This isn’t the real gospel without repentance.

Together for the “buying as many books as one’s credit card allows” … is idolatry.

T4BS. Together for Book Sales.

“I categorically reject the suggestion that I have ever conspired to cover up sexual abuse or other wrong-doing.”–CJ Mahney
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

“I can’t be a conspirator because I’m not conspiratorial. Besides, everyone knows pastors don’t conspire.”

GSD above wins the Internet today!

************ T4BS *************

We need T-shirts!

SallyVee wrote:

this is a blow to Mahaney & Mohler

SBC hasn’t brought Mohler to task on his affiliation with Mahaney/SGM yet. It would be the right thing to do, but I don’t see it happening. Mohler is bullet-proof.

Mohler’s tweet today: “Why a morally-sane society must consider all the ways in which we can protect our children. #TheBriefing”

How about protecting them in church?!

When judgement begins, it will begin at the house of God first.

PC wrote:

Root 66 wrote:
his is a multiple choice question. Which item(s) of edification would not be found at a first century church gathering of pastors?

It would be cool if someone made a whip and showed-up at the book table and started flipping them over.

When somebody admonishes you with “What Would Jesus Do?”, remind them that flipping out and throwing tables around is an option.”

Most people when deceptive don’t come right out and lie but omit information, fail to answer the question, and reinterpret words to their own personal meaning. Let’s read what he said and believe him unless he gives us a reason not to (As that’s how we would like to be treated.) Here’s my brief analysis:
So that there is no lack of clarity on this:
Here he states the purpose of the following.
I am innocent of the allegations that have been made against me personally,
True, in the United States we are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. But that doesn’t mean he didn’t do it. When accused of something it’s natural to respond “I didn’t do X.” So here he didn’t clearly say he didn’t do it. Note here he limits it to those made against him personally.
and the recent, public characterizations of Sovereign Grace as a whole are absolutely false.
Which “public characterizations”? “As a whole”- we say when part of it is true. As in, “As a whole you did a good job but…” So what parts are true? What about the accusations against certain individuals (parts) including leaders?
I categorically reject the suggestion that I have ever conspired to cover up sexual abuse or other wrong-doing.
True, he categorically rejects the suggestion. This is a statement about what he is doing right now but not about what happened. The statement “I categorically tell you I am Superman” would be true (that’s what I’m telling you) but would not correspond to reality.
No one should interpret my withdrawal as an acknowledgment of guilt.
This is not a statement of fact but what he’s saying no one should do. Why shouldn’t they? Because he hasn’t acknowledged his guilt?
I withdraw out of care for my friends and for the sake of this conference and the cause of Christ.
This looks like a true statement but we would have to know what he means by “the cause of Christ”.

He fails to achieve his purpose “So that there is no lack of clarity on this:” Everything he says could be true and most or all (I haven’t read them carefully enough to compare of them in detail to this analysis here) of Rachel’s, or some others, accusations also could be true. There is no reliable denial of the accusations. To be clear was his purpose and it would’ve been easy to achieve. This indicates he’s being deceptive.

[ here is a more clearly formatted version of my above comment.]
Most people when deceptive don’t come right out and lie but omit information, fail to answer the question, and reinterpret words to their own personal meaning. Let’s read what he said and believe him unless he gives us a reason not to (As that’s how we would like to be treated.) Here’s my brief analysis:
CJ:”So that there is no lack of clarity on this:”
Here he states the purpose of the following.
CJ:”I am innocent of the allegations that have been made against me personally,”
True, in the United States we are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. But that doesn’t mean he didn’t do it. When accused of something it’s natural to respond “I didn’t do X.” So here he didn’t clearly say he didn’t do it. Note here he limits it to those made against him personally.
CJ:”and the recent, public characterizations of Sovereign Grace as a whole are absolutely false.”
Which “public characterizations”? “As a whole”- we say when part of it is true. As in, “As a whole you did a good job but…” So what parts are true? What about the accusations against certain individuals (parts) including leaders?
CJ:”I categorically reject the suggestion that I have ever conspired to cover up sexual abuse or other wrong-doing.”
True, he categorically rejects the suggestion. This is a statement about what he is doing right now but not about what happened. The statement “I categorically tell you I am Superman” would be true (that’s what I’m telling you) but would not correspond to reality.
CJ:”No one should interpret my withdrawal as an acknowledgment of guilt.”
This is not a statement of fact but what he’s saying no one should do. Why shouldn’t they? Because he hasn’t acknowledged his guilt?
CJ:” I withdraw out of care for my friends and for the sake of this conference and the cause of Christ.”
This looks like a true statement but we would have to know what he means by “the cause of Christ”.

He fails to achieve his purpose “So that there is no lack of clarity on this:” Everything he says could be true and most or all (I haven’t read them carefully enough to compare of them in detail to this analysis here) of Rachel’s, or some others, accusations also could be true. There is no reliable denial of the accusations. To be clear was his purpose and it would’ve been easy to achieve. This indicates he’s being deceptive.

Sent from my iPad

Barf.

SallyVee wrote:

Brent Detwiler, who has been attacked, mistreated & falsely accused for daring to tell the truth and standing up for the victims.

Brent is no saint. He was part of the heavy handed leaders of SGM and hurt many people as well.

GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:

T4BS. Together for Book Sales.

or
T4$$$

I wonder if CJ will still attend and be seated up front with all the speakers just like he did previously when he wasn’t supposed to be a speaker? I remember Todd sharing a picture of this on his blog.

https://thouarttheman.org/2016/09/10/4665/

Someone shared this link on another blog where RachelDenhollander tells why she spoke up.

http://amymantravadi.com/2018/01/24/heroes-among-us-brought-larry-nassar/

One thing she shared in this video was this statement:

Need to realize. When you are dealing with a prominent public figure the only thing that will make that organization stop backing them is a public outcry.

Maybe a “public outcry” is starting to work?

Nathan Priddis wrote:

Mr. Mahaney. I am very confused. Specifically what is, the Lord’s doing? (Psalm 118)

The Scriptures speak of the Stone, that the builders rejected. What stone is being rejected here? What does attendance at a TG4 conference have to do with the rejection of stones?

Do you see yourself as a once rejected stone? Who are the builders, in an effort to give context to your quote? Are you not the Chief Builder of SGM? Is not TG4 a gathering of builders, and would be builders?

Are you possibly confused in your teaching, in that you do not understand, of what you speak?

It’s simple, Nathan. C.J. Mahaney is a New Calvinist. New Calvinists are famous for taking Biblical text out of context to support this or that.

Psalm 118 is a precious prophecy of the humiliation and exaltation of the Lord Jesus. It has nothing to do with T4G2018, anybody who attends there, or anything that goes on there. As C.J. noted in the previous sentence “we fumble for the right words.” Yep, this was another fumble.

SallyVee wrote:

************ T4BS *************

We need T-shirts!

It would be fun to wear them to T4G. I wonder how long it would be before we were asked to leave. Maybe if they were polo shirts with a little T4BS logo over the pocket.

And we might want to add a tagline so they know that BS refers to book sales. They might think it referred to something else…

My guess is that CJ is hacked that he won’t be getting a speaking fee, so he’s comforting himself by thinking about the book sales. Which raises the question, will CJ’s books be given away, and sold? Will CJ show up, and sit in the crowd, or on the front row? CJ isn’t speaking, but is he still making bank?

dee wrote:

Darn-I had been practicing Pete Seeger protest songs in preparation for my first protest at #T4G2018.

Seeger? (Baez, Dylan…)
I thought they were just for old lefties like me.
You surprise me.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2018/march/cj-mahaney-withdraws-t4g-conference-sgm-rachael-denhollande.html

This is just the beginning … The Lord is going to bring FULL justice to those that did not repent from their evil deeds. T4G and CJ’s “henchmen” will have to go down with the Mahaney ship or quickly distance themselves from him. Watch closely to what they say … My bet is that they don’t come rushing to his defense. Too risky for their book sales!

Lord Jesus … help them fully repent. Restore what only you can restore!

Rachel, please continue listening to the Lord! Thank you for people like you and Brent who are faithful friends to those whose hearts are hardened!

@ ishy:

“ Well its one, two , three what are we fightin’ for”

Have you noticed that, if you say the right Evangelical or Reformed talking points, you can fairly enough get away with anything.

“I do not want this wonderful conference to become a context where questions about me or Sovereign Grace distract from the exaltation of Christ and him crucified (1 Cor. 2:2).”

So godly. Reminds me of Ravi Zacharias’ confession of “impropriety.” Oh, is that what the kids are calling today?

This was perhaps my favorite: “I want the experience of the conference to be [of] deep edification … and buying as many books as one’s credit card allows, all for the glory of God.” Nothing like maxing out your credit card, getting further into debt, for the “glory” of God. Great stewardship sermon material right there.

Shepherds Conference… “I will build my church.”

Likely less about Jesus building His church and more about Dever wielding his keys. Something is glaringly wrong when the emphasis and proclaimed success story is on the wielding of keys instead of on a redeeming Christ.

Can’t wait to tune in.

Somewhereintime wrote:

This is just the beginning … The Lord is going to bring FULL justice to those that did not repent from their evil deeds. T4G and CJ’s “henchmen” will have to go down with the Mahaney ship or quickly distance themselves from him. Watch closely to what they say … My bet is that they don’t come rushing to his defense. Too risky for their book sales!

Lord Jesus … help them fully repent. Restore what only you can restore!

Rachel, please continue listening to the Lord! Thank you for people like you and Brent who are faithful friends to those whose hearts are hardened!

Dear Lord Jesus I hope.

@ Ken F (aka Tweed):
I just think they all should go out of business. Why they have any spiritual credibility is beyond me. The “protect and promote” Mahaney thing has gone on for years. Look what it took to just have him off stage this year. An articulate nationally known young woman victim lawyer speaking up. They can’t marginalize her without serious blowback. They are all long time spiritual frauds, IMO, and have nothing to teach anyone.

Root 66 wrote:

“…
Mahaney is circling the wagons and going into straight-up damage control. The cash cow’s about to run dry! Stay tuned!

Yes, it is udder destruction.

Maybe some of these guys will actually have to work for a living. In our churches, all of our pastors do.
J.M.

@ Ken F (aka Tweed):
Like having no followers who give up their money and integrity so easily.

Leslie wrote:

“ Well its one, two , three what are we fightin’ for”

Gimme’ an F…
Gimme’ a U…

I just thought I’d dig back a few years in the Internet, specifically to the 2014 Together For The Gospel Conference Guide. You can find it here: http://t4g.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/T4G-Conference-Guide-2014.pdf

In that document, you’ll notice that the usual suspects are there, the same guys as this year: Anyabwile, Chandler, Dever, DeYoung, Duncan, MacArthur, Mohler, Piper and Platt. And then there’s this note, about the missing CJ Mahaney on page 5:

There are some changes in the lineup of speakers. CJ Mahaney
will not be addressing us. While this saddens us, we pray for CJ and
for his continued pastoral ministry at Sovereign Grace Church of
Louisville. We thank God for the many messages we have heard from
him at previous T4G’s and in so many other settings over the years,
and we pray that God will continue to grow him and increase his
usefulness as the days and years go by.

The issue that caused Mahaney to drop out/be dropped in 2014 has not been resolved, but he was invited back in 2016 to rapturous praise from Al Mohler and applause and cheers from the crowd. And he was invited back again this year. It says volumes about the guys who run the Together For The Gospel shindig that they’ve had to drop Mahaney not once, but twice. In their minds, the very real possibility that Mahaney may have covered up child abuse at his church and within Sovereign Grace seems not to matter in the least. That calls into question their judgment.

ishy wrote:

Based on Mahaney’s overly-defensive posture in the notice, I think he was asked to step down.

This was my thought too. I also note the complete (and unsurprising) lack of humility or concern for victims. I am pleased to see him step down from the conference, but I hope that the pressure stays on the T4G guys long enough to demand a response other than silence or bad jokes.

Mahaney: “T4G is sold out.”

A surprisingly succinct description of T4G.

Gail wrote:

Bob Kauflin is a soverign grace ministries big wig, right?
Place holder for C.J.?

Yep.

Do you think he will be singing this worship song at the conference?

https://youtu.be/5ayGCk2V_mY

“…buying as many books as one’s credit card allows, all for the glory of God…This is the Lord’s doing and it is marvelous in our eyes…”

C.J., you have crossed the line into the realm of The Onion. This is high parody. I want to thank you, sir, for demonstrating once and for all just what you’re all about, and demonstrating, quite succinctly, that Jesus has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:

T4BS. Together for Book Sales.

Is that URL taken? It would make a great spoof site. For someone with time on their hands.

*Cough* twitter @TG4BS

The Denhollanders have clearly demonstrated that when churches and their networks no longer have a moral compass, the legal compass comes into play.

The heart of the matter remains CJ Mahaney is an unrepentant blackmailer and co-conspirator in covering up CSA. Those who have enabled him in the past continue to do so by allowing this proclamation of his innocence. Glad he is out but his statement is woefully inadequate.

“buying as many books as one’s credit card allows, all for the glory of God.”

I’m not that old, as I am a millennial, but I remember when Preachers, especially ones connected to the SBC, would preach about how it was sinful to buy on credit and be in debt to others.

I don’t have an ESV edition of the Bible, did it leave out the parts about usury, the camel through the eye of the needle, Christ clearing the temple, Mammon, etc…?

GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:

T4BS. Together for Book Sales.

Or perhaps T4BS – Together For Bull S***

Max wrote:

Steve240 wrote:
Here is a video of Kauflin “worshipping” Mahaney.
Well, if that song was delivered in a service honoring Mahaney, it has to be one of the most blasphemous things I’ve heard in the context of church worship. Was that a service devoted to recognizing and honoring Mahaney somewhere?

That leaves a sour taste in my mouth, too, Max.

Todd Wilhelm wrote:

Specifically, is CJ Mahaney still slated to get his cut of what I assume is a significant amount?

Good question.

Will he have books selling so folks can, as he recommends, max out their credit cards?

Forrest wrote:

Or perhaps T4BS – Together For Bull S***

I was thinking the same thing ……. T4BS&BS

Jarrett Edwards wrote:

I don’t have an ESV edition of the Bible, did it leave out the parts about usury, the camel through the eye of the needle, Christ clearing the temple, Mammon, etc…?

Jesus said that man can’t serve two masters. CJ just made it blatantly obvious which master he serves.

In other news, Covenant Life Church had a members meeting Sunday night, and I’m dying to know whether they “voted”on their name change.

Ron Oommen wrote:

He’s still in the pantheon…er…photo on their FB page.
https://www.facebook.com/TogetherfortheGospel/

Ugh…people commenting on Facebook here are still begging for tickets to go even though it’s sold out, after all of this! It reminds me of the men of Sodom and Gomorrah, when, even after being struck blind by the angels, still groped in their darkness to find them!
It is horrible to see how blinded and deceived people are by these guys.

It’s a worship event for them… worship of man.

Steve240 wrote:

My take on this is the possibility that they would have a number of people cancel their attendance and ask for refunds … On the other hand my guess is that most of the people attending this event have their head in the sand and it would be doubtful they would cancel attending.

The great multitude of New Calvinists who idolize the “Fab Four” would fall in the latter category. They will still line up for Mahaney’s signature and a selfie with the Apostle if he shows up. If so, a list of conference attendees should be circulated throughout Christendom to see if a pastor near you was at the gathering of new reformers in Louisville – so you can avoid his church.

World magazine just published an article on Rachel. They had a notice in it about her research on SGM. The article said more about it will be published.

Todd Wilhelm wrote:

Georgia pastor Peter Lumpkins says SBC agency heads “cannot and should not” align with individuals or organizations in ways that harm the reputation of all Southern Baptists.

There is no doubt that Pastor Lumpkins had Al Mohler’s affiliation with Mahaney/SGM in mind when he penned his resolution “On Sexual Abuse Of Children”, which was approved at the SBC national meeting in 2013. http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/1230/on-sexual-abuse-of-children

Mohler has apparently ignored that resolution which states “we encourage all denominational leaders and employees of the Southern Baptist Convention to utilize the highest sense of discernment in affiliating with groups and or individuals that possess questionable policies and practices in protecting our children from criminal abuse.” Dr. Mohler not only ignored that warning, but helped Mahaney set up shop in Louisville, and continued to promote him through T4G. Mahaney and his church are now members of the SBC!

Pastor Lumpkins tried. The big dogs won. But God …

“and buying as many books as one’s credit card allows, all for the glory of God.”
Really??? This has to be a hoax! No one would say such a thing and think that would not come back to haunt you. No 3 friends would let you say that and not immediately think, “that one is going to come back and haunt us”.
They couldn’t be that insensitive, could they? Wait, the three of them, maybe so.

Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

Interesting to see how the T4G website reflects this change. The home page says nothing about it, but does continue to include this quote: “Together for the Gospel 2018 offers this: the culture may call churches to conform, but God calls us to be Holy. Set apart. Sanctified. Distinct.” What about being Holy, Set apart, Sanctified, Distinct when it comes to abuse?

Mahaney has been entirely removed from the lists of seminars, panels, and gatherings. He shows up only under the list of Plenary Talks with a link to the letter Dee copied above (I compared the two versions – they are identical). See http://t4g.org/announcement/.

In addition to all the comments here on TWW, look at the failed opportunities:
1) In the letter Mahaney could have called for a 3rd party investigation and called for churches to do better with respect to abuse. He did not.
2) Mohler, Duncan, and Dever (and perhaps Mahaney?) could have issued a joint statement about the reasons for this change and a call for churches to embrace transparency and accountability with respect to abuse. They did not.
3) The Mahaney time slots could have been filled with competent experts in abuse to teach pastors about things like mandatory reporting laws and more appropriate ways to handle abusers and victims. They were not.
4) This could have been a golden opportunity for T4G to turn a corner. Instead, they made some administrative tweaks to their schedule and pressed on almost as if nothing happened.
5) The other celebrities in all the various venues could make their own personal statements about all of this. As far as I can tell, none of have have done so.

These are excellent points!!!

Bob Kauflin is still leading the music for T4G. Few seem to know this.

Forrest wrote:

Happymom wrote:

The fact that he cracks a joke in the face of these allegations is horrific.

Children were abused.

Lives were torn apart.

There is nothing comical about this.

This tells us all we need to know about CJ and his buddies. The consequences of his actions and inactions were as serious as it gets.

If I remember correctly, Al Mohler cracked totally inappropriate jokes a few years ago as well.

Mark, Al, and Lig have been supporting CJ publicly forever; without ever investigating anything.

Root 66 wrote:

Ugh…people commenting on Facebook here are still begging for tickets to go even though it’s sold out, after all of this!

And it will be livestreamed… for free! I guess it’s worth a few hundred bucks for some people to be in the same room as their idols… I mean, their favorite celebrity preachers.

I watched a bit of Mohler at the Pastor’s Conference last night. Seems like the big question is, who’s got the Keys to the Kingdom? His answer: We do! And he managed to toss in some mild Catholic bashing.

Stunned wrote:

CJ’s letter says, “I am responsible, where necessary and appropriate, to defend myself and Sovereign Grace, and this I continue to do as I have for the last several years.”

How my heart aches to have had him and everyone else say, “I am responsible, where necessary and appropriate, to defend those who have been abused, hurt and who have had God misrepresented to them because of what they suffered at the hands of “the church”, and this I continue to do as I have for the last several years.”

Dear Jesus, we know YOU care. Now only if those who claim to be ministers of the gospel would care, too.

THIS.

AMEN.

Ken A wrote:

“and buying as many books as one’s credit card allows, all for the glory of God.”
Really??? This has to be a hoax! No one would say such a thing and think that would not come back to haunt you.

The young reformers love their idols when they crack funnies like this – so unbecoming of a man of the cloth. No one has accused Mahaney of being very smart – he obviously wasn’t thinking when he uttered that in the context of the seriousness of the issue at hand. These folks are taking the church for a ride – they love to see those credit cards whipped out to buy their books.

Max wrote:

The great multitude of New Calvinists who idolize the “Fab Four” would fall in the latter category.

“Fab Four”?
“IT’S LIKE BEATLEMANIA!”
(Mohlermania? Devermania? Mahaneymania? Screaming Teenybopper Groupies and all?)

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

“Fab Four”?
“IT’S LIKE BEATLEMANIA!”

Yep. Mohler/Duncan/Dever/Mahaney. … the Fab Four of Together for the Gospel (Gospel = Calvinism to them). They are real-life celebrities in New Calvinist ranks, much bigger than the Beatles!

Max wrote:

They are real-life celebrities in New Calvinist ranks, much bigger than the Beatles!

And didn’t John Lennon once put his foot in his mouth about The Beatles are bigger than God?

Deb wrote:

@ Bridget:
Mohler’s highly inappropriate joking was at T4G2016, and it demonstrated his stone cold heart.

And “Al” spoke volumes with that joke IMO. It gave a much clearer picture of how seriously he takes abuse than any of his carefully crafted and expediently timed statements. I feel the same way about CJ’s credit card joke.

I’m so glad the SGM abuse victims are getting attention again. It gives me hope that attitudes are slowly changing.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

didn’t John Lennon once put his foot in his mouth about The Beatles are bigger than God?

The T4G elite ‘are’ gods!

BoughtTheField wrote:

Lisa,the vote on the CLC name change was delayed out of respect for Rachel Denhollander.

Seriously? Please . . .

GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:

I watched a bit of Mohler at the Pastor’s Conference last night. Seems like the big question is, who’s got the Keys to the Kingdom? His answer: We do!

I knew it!

For the record…if the sheep are misbehaving, it’s not a sheep issue as much as it a preaching issue. It’s time for the preacher to ask, “Why isn’t my expert exegesis effective to the point of profoundly changing the hearer? Why is there no power in my preaching?”

@ Muff Potter:

Sorry for the mix-up, I was responding to Todd Wilhelm’s comment, not Law Prof’s.

Lydia wrote:

I told the story here before of a church friend asking my stepfather to put up a T4G attendee years ago who could not afford the hotel. He drove about 700 miles one way to come but was dead broke with a wife and child at home. My stepdad put him up, fed him and even gave him money for the trip home but also could not help but tell him the money would be better spent on the needs of his family.

One of the saddest and most poignant things you’ve regaled us with.
I wonder if the guy ever woke up from the mirage-dream-world he was living in.

2006 T4G blog post “Confronting CJ” by Mark Dever:

http://t4g.org/2006/02/cj-confronted/

[CJ had expressed he felt it was such an undeserved honor to be numbered with the other three, as the most he could do would be to sit at their feet asking questions]

Dever: “it’s time to confront you now in open posts. You SAY that you’re no good for this blog, except to ask the rest of us to answer your questions in public. I beg you, in your humility, to consider that you may be wrong in this conclusion…you have been in pastoral ministry longer than Al, me & Ligon combined…you have learned pastoral wisdom that you could share with us”

That’s what passes as ‘public confrontation’ amongst the T4G set? Reminds me of the ‘You Are Worthy!’ shouts of assurance at Highpoint Memphis.

Caroline wrote:

feel the same way about CJ’s credit card joke.

Give us all of the money you have, and all of the money you plan to have?

Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

She is the perfect example of why most evangelical churches won’t let women speak from the pulpit. She combines hard truth with class and blows them all out of the water.

As I’ve quipped here before, these kinds of guys are scared-you-know-whatless of the primal power of women.

Bridget wrote:

BoughtTheField wrote:
Lisa,the vote on the CLC name change was delayed out of respect for Rachel Denhollander.
Seriously? Please . . .

Also, overlooked because of the phenomenon called Rachel Denhollander, Brent Detwiler recently posted a detailed calendar of events surrounding P.J.’s involvement (as young adult) in his father’s dealing with the harassment claims against him.

The blog post is titled: New & Indisputable Evidence Proves P.J. Smyth Knew All About Father’s Violent Beating of Boys – He & Pastor Continue to deceive Covenant Church Despite My Appeals

Two very clearly documented issues in one week has evidently served to derail CLC’s agenda.

@ Ken F (aka Tweed):
Ken F said: Interesting to see how the T4G website reflects this change. The home page says nothing about it, but does continue to include this quote: “Together for the Gospel 2018 offers this: the culture may call churches to conform, but God calls us to be Holy. Set apart. Sanctified. Distinct.”

Holy = holier than thou
Set apart = isolationist (listen only to your trusted leaders)
Sanctified = sin-leveling sin-sniffers
Distinct = like the Pharisees

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Max wrote:

The great multitude of New Calvinists who idolize the “Fab Four” would fall in the latter category.

“Fab Four”?
“IT’S LIKE BEATLEMANIA!”
(Mohlermania? Devermania? Mahaneymania? Screaming Teenybopper Groupies and all?)

Mahania

Augustine wrote:

GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:

I watched a bit of Mohler at the Pastor’s Conference last night. Seems like the big question is, who’s got the Keys to the Kingdom? His answer: We do!

I knew it!

For the record…if the sheep are misbehaving, it’s not a sheep issue as much as it a preaching issue. It’s time for the preacher to ask, “Why isn’t my expert exegesis effective to the point of profoundly changing the hearer? Why is there no power in my preaching?”

More like… “Why isn’t my expert eisegesis effective…?”

http://t4g.org/about/

“T4G…began as a friendship between four pastors from across denominational traditions”

Todd Wilhelm wrote:

The heart of the matter remains CJ Mahaney is an unrepentant blackmailer and co-conspirator in covering up CSA.

Forgive my ignorance, I am late to this party. I LOVE what Rachael Denhollander is doing. Could you please point me in the direction of the Mahaney/Tomzcak blackmail story? thx

@ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):
How much you wanna bet Rachael is a comp.

anon in the EFCA wrote:

Lydia wrote:

How much you wanna bet Rachael is a comp.

I would be shocked if she wasn’t. I think that part of the story is awesome. Some might call it “soft complementarianism,” but I think it’s great that she can speak so clearly, bravely and gently within this framework.

What are you talking about? She is not speaking gently. And, it shouldn’t matter if she is comp. or not.

A woman should be heard because she speaks the truth(.) The fact that some men will only listen if a woman presents truth in a way that is acceptable in the comp world is a blight on those men, not on women who aren’t complementarian.

anon in the EFCA wrote:

Please help me understand your comment.

Sorry Bridget. Lydia raised Rachael’s likely comp position, not you. I thought Lydia was replying to my comment.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Max wrote:

They are real-life celebrities in New Calvinist ranks, much bigger than the Beatles!

And didn’t John Lennon once put his foot in his mouth about The Beatles are bigger than God?

HUG:. Lennon said that the Beatles were more popular than Jesus. But I think his statement was misunderstood. That is why he attempted to clarify it but the damage has already been done.

BoughtTheField wrote:

Lisa Belliveau wrote:

In other news, Covenant Life Church had a members meeting Sunday night, and I’m dying to know whether they “voted”on their name change.

Lisa,the vote on the CLC name change was delayed out of respect for Rachel Denhollander. The elders first want to discuss the implications of her statements.

I would venture to say that they’re just waiting for the publicity to die down. Then they will institute the name change.

Stunned wrote:

an anyone remember what the joke (I don’t know if that is the right term, but maybe snide comment is better) which Mohler made at the 2016 T4G? I think it was something about the protesters outside who were asking people to consider the victims of sexual abuse when they rose to their feet to applaud someone who may have possibly turned his back on the victims.

Anyone?

Here’s the entire introduction by Albert Mohler, as transcribed by myself:

Albert Mohler introducing C.J. Mahaney, Together For The Gospel 2016

He has modeled endurance. It would be very easy to get up here and say, “C.J. Mahaney is going to speak for us,” but I think faithfulness in my responsibility this afternoon in introducing him is to say that we know he has demonstrated endurance in the face of an incredible trial and he has been a model of endurance for us.

Kindness. I have never heard C.J. Mahaney say anything unkind about anyone and that has been a great gift to me in friendship.

Consistency. C.J.’s preaching the same gospel he’s always preached. He’s preaching the scripture, in season and out of season, in a remarkable consistency over time and space, as his ministry moved from Maryland to here in Louisville, Kentucky where he’s the pastor of the Sovereign Grace church. He continues to exert massive influence through the reach of Sovereign Grace Ministries.

Steadfastness. Biblically defined as being immovable, where the Christian man should be immovable, in the faith, in the truth, in Christ. C.J. has been, from the very moment I first met him, an encourager. And for that, I am just incredibly thankful. I have never left a conversation with C.J. discouraged. We sometimes, as friends do, had to talk about things that are in themselves discouraging because sometimes the world around us presents us things that are discouraging, but he’s never been less than encouraging.

The final word I want to use is joy. To know C.J. is to know a man whose joy is in Christ, whose joy is in the gospel and a man through whom joy is so very, very evident. Part of the reason for that, humanly speaking, is his wife, Carolyn, and the fact that they together now have three now married daughters, one son and 12 grandchildren.

I told C.J., when I was getting ready to introduce him, I decided to Google to see if there was anything on the Internet about him. [audible laughter] And that’s where I discovered—having discovered this on the Internet [more audible laughter] that C.J. cheers for the Washington Redskins and the Washington Nationals and against the Dallas Cowboys, the New York Yankees, and Duke Basketball [loud laughter]. That is a section missing from any biographical material on me. [very loud laughter] But I know it to be true because I read it about C.J.. [lighter laughter]

What I know about C.J. is C.J. loves Christ, loves the gospel and I know that in this room, C.J. Mahaney, who is blessed by God with a wonderful church and a wonderful movement, by a wonderful wife and a wonderful family, in this room, has 10,000 friends. Let’s look forward to hearing the word of God from C.J. Mahaney. [applause]

Hope that helps.

Stunned wrote:

Can anyone remember what the joke (I don’t know if that is the right term, but maybe snide comment is better) which Mohler made at the 2016 T4G?

I believe there was a post about this on TWW at that time.

Lydia wrote:

How much you wanna bet Rachael is a comp.

If I were a gambler, I’d bet money on it!
I do believe she has her limits, though. And she has the courage to call out anyone who crosses the line in the sand.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Muff Potter wrote:

So would I. All that need be done is an overhaul and revamp of the 501(c)(3) laws as applied to religious outfits.

Last time someone in Congress tried anything resembling that (an investigation of crooked televangelists), he found out the hard way that GAWD’s Special Privileges(TM) was a hotter third rail than Social Security.

That was Chuck Grassley, and I sincerely regret he didn’t stand by his guns and take down the crooks.

@ anon in the EFCA:

I was. My position is that comp doesn’t matter in a blessed alliance between believers in marriage. But the movement in those circles sold it to thousands as part of the Gospel.

I think we probably have no idea how many young women Rachel has influenced whether as a prophet or as a Survivor.

@ Muslin, fka Dee Holmes:

Thank you, Muslin! I appreciate you doing that for me.

Abigail wrote:

World magazine just published an article on Rachel. They had a notice in it about her research on SGM. The article said more about it will be published.

I am really hoping they hold to that

Lydia wrote:

It was bold and truthful.

I thought so!

Lisa Belliveau wrote:

@ Bridget:
That was my question. Is this for real?

It’s for real that they said it. Now if people actually believe that’s why they postponed the vote, well I can’t help them.

@ Jerome:

It might be a friendship but how is it structured financially? 501c3?

About comp and Rachael (and her husband).

I do not think that comp will totally go away. It has been traditional for a long time, it works for some people, a lot of people are put off by women’s lib perceived excesses, and then there are ‘bible’ verses. If it turns out that Rachael can popularize a picture of comp which is not inconsistent with an image of female power within a comp-ish setting, then that will be a step in the right direction. And when I glanced at what her husband was writing at SBTS I think that is part of what would be consistent with his paper, granted that I did not read every word of it.

So, the comp thing may be yet one more side effect of Ms Rachael’s impact (to use a modernized version of an old southern form of address of respect for a woman.)

I think that both sides of the comp/non-comp argument have some people who are committed to ‘my way or the highway’ on this issue, and I think that Lydia’s idea in comment above in which she said “My position is that comp doesn’t matter in a blessed alliance between believers in marriage.” is a far far better position than rigid idealism on either side of the issue. I vote for freedom and more freedom for couples as they do what works for themselves. And I vote for fewer and fewer people, including pastors, who try to micro-manage other people’s lives and choices.

Somewhereintime wrote:

It’s a worship event for them… worship of man.

I long for a day when thousands of preachers are genuinely “together for the gospel” rather than to celebrate a pet theology. It continues to amaze me that much of 21st century preaching does not focus on the centrality of the Cross of Christ. We’ve lost our Christocentric bearing in the American church. Yes, we desperately need a “gospel coalition” which will focus on Christ not man. The “gospel” we are serving up in many corners of Christendom is not scaring the devil much, nor leading lost folks to salvation in Christ. We don’t need to proclaim doctrines of grace – we need to preach the Cross to lead people to a direct experience of Grace, an encounter with the living of Christ. The disciples which are produced by both are distinctly different.

Does anyone know if T4G is a nonprofit?

Steve wrote:

Does anyone know if T4G is a nonprofit?

I assume so. It’s certainly a non-prophet!

Deb wrote:

“T4G offers 2,000+ titles in a curated bookstore covering 70,000 square feet across two locations in The Galt House Hotel and the Main Concourse of the Yum! Center, where our main sessions gather. Lifeway, our bookstore partner, has negotiated handsome discounts with the publishers that are only available during the three-day conference.”

Every reformed publishing house in America will be set up there – this is a huge event for them! Crossway, of course, is the biggest dog of the pack.

LifeWay has been an enabler for the reformed movement within SBC ranks – the average Southern Baptist is not aware of this. Millions of non-Calvinist SBC members blindly trust their publishing resource to promote only mainline SBC belief and practice in the products they sell.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Last time someone in Congress tried anything resembling that (an investigation of crooked televangelists), he found out the hard way that GAWD’s Special Privileges(TM) was a hotter third rail than Social Security.

Forgot all about that HUG, true enough.
It would be hard enough to do (religious non-profit financial reform) in the blue states. But in the red states below the Mason Dixon line?
You might as well try and…(fill in the blank)…

Muff Potter wrote:

okrapod wrote:

I do not think that comp will totally go away.

Nor do I. But I think that it will no longer enjoy the absolutism of a non-negotiable doctrine thundered out of Horeb (so to speak) by the various brands of Protestant Evangelicalism.

The end result of complementarity will be just a bunch of old authoritarian guys sitting in their little Horeb patriarchies enjoying each other … their women will be long gone.

Max wrote:

Steve wrote:

Does anyone know if T4G is a nonprofit?

I assume so. It’s certainly a non-prophet!

LOL. Very clever (and very true!)

okrapod wrote:

And I vote for fewer and fewer people, including pastors, who try to micro-manage other people’s lives and choices

My vote as well.

okrapod wrote:

I do not think that comp will totally go away. It has been traditional for a long time, it works for some people, a lot of people are put off by women’s lib perceived excesses, and then there are ‘bible’ verses.

I think this is a great point. It all comes down to freedom. I don’t want the government to block anyone’s ability to live the life they believe they should live. This is happening in the world today, but thank God we have gotten rid of the majority of that in the US. (If I’ve overlooked glaring instances of this still going on here, I’m happy to be proven wrong).

I also don’t want religious leaders using their claimed authority to tell people their lives should look just like theirs. There is no principle for what every life should look like. There is only following the path to God that each of us was born with. If that involves a “traditional” family with the mom staying home with the kid and the dad working, great! If the mom wants to be a CEO or a soldier or a lumberjack, great! The funny thing about the “traditional” thing is that back when everyone lived on farms, the average woman did TONS of manual labor that would have been unheard of in the 1950s, which is the era of perfect comp families that these people hold up.

I think the science of gender differences is fascinating. My wife thinks it is pointless. Am I wrong to be fascinated by it (honest question). The scientist who study it are always quick to point out that there is more variation within groups than between groups.

We will never get rid of comp in practice, but we should DESTROY the theology that says it is the only Biblical ™ way to live.

Check it…https://twitter.com/wartwatch/status/972128935193595905

Bridget wrote:

A woman should be heard because she speaks the truth(.) The fact that some men will only listen if a woman presents truth in a way that is acceptable in the comp world is a blight on those men, not on women who aren’t complementarian.

I refuse to categorize at all. For Christ’s sake – literally, for Christ’s sake – let the text speak without man-designed categories or structures imposing on it and distorting the text’s intention. It continues to astound me how the curse is actually proving itself a reality.

Case in point…”and your DESIRE shall be for your husband and he shall RULE over you…”

DESIRE = yearning after and reaching out toward. (Maybe, her desires will now be for her husband instead of her God, i.e., tendency to make her husband her god?) RULE OVER = Dominate.

“Yearning after,” versus “ruling over” – hard not to see these as two DIFFERENT tendencies. Neither are good but both are fixed in the gospel…where we SHOULD BE united, “together…for the gospel.”

Just saying.

@ Ken F (aka Tweed):
Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

Jerome wrote:
It’s been suggested that the T4G brand is operated via this Gospel Projects entity:
https://www.taxexemptworld.com/organization.asp?tn=2290610
Makes sense. It’s the same address as Dever’s church.

And the unholy hijacking continues… https://www.9marks.org/church-search/

Max wrote:

Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:

C.J. Mahaney … in this room, has 10,000 friends … [applause]

And that, friends, is a snapshot of just how far and how many have drifted from what is right.

I picture a bunch of plastic smiles and fake applause. Sycophants idolizing their leaders, some hoping that perhaps one day, they too, can share the limelight on stage with their hero.

@ Jerome:

That video…*shudders* Visceral reaction.

One of the major reasons I left SEBTS and the SBC is because of 9Marks and deep, personal experiential and intellectual disagreement with their philosophy and theology on pretty much everything regarding church, humanity, God. What it does with and to people….

I also left because of SGM support and ignorance.

(And for many other reasons).

P.S. Rachael is *awesome*!!! She is a force to reckoned with.

@ Steve:

Hi, Steve. I read the story of your sister. I’m so very sorry. It deserves to be told. Roberta deserves for it to be told.

Jerome wrote:

9Marxists Mark Dever, Jonathan Leeman, and Matt Schmucker chuckling about an unnamed outfit Schmucker now runs that “quietly supports various ministries”:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VNz714D6kw&t=25s

Super creepy.

Yes, creepy. Lots of ego stroking going on there. So smug and filled with hubris, this 9MARKS Movement. At one point Matt Schmucker was asked why they changed their name to 9Marks from ‘The Center for Church Reform’. Duh. That’s a no-brainer. Their former name sounds something right out of Marxist thinking. More like ‘The Center for Thought Reform and Mind Control’. Though of course, they would never say such a thing directly.

Darlene wrote:

Max wrote:

The end result of complementarity will be just a bunch of old authoritarian guys sitting in their little Horeb patriarchies enjoying each other … their women will be long gone.

Max, I’m going to disagree with you on this one. I think there will always be women in the patriarchal movement. Some women seem hardwired to be part of that environment, and will not allow themselves to think outside the narrow box of patriarchy that confines them. In fact, they would say that they are not confined at all and feel quite secure and happy. Different strokes for different folks.

I think you are correct there, Darlene. It’s something that defies logic but it happens nonetheless.

How about the part at 04:15 where Schmucker tells about his and Dever’s generous neighbor, a serial entrepreneur, whom they’d impressed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VNz714D6kw&t=257s

Schmucker: “To make a long story short he said why don’t you start something that does that and he offered to give us $100,000 a year for three years in row to see if we could get it off the ground. To this day I’m not sure he’s a believer.”

There are tax documents showing this neighbor among the officers of Dever’s ‘Center for Church Reform’ (later rebranded as 9Marks).

These program services brought in $1,671,940 in revenue for the Gospel Projects organization in 2016. Only $5,090 is noted under Contributions/Grants

Jerome wrote:

It’s been suggested that the T4G brand is operated via this Gospel Projects entity:

https://www.taxexemptworld.com/organization.asp?tn=2290610

The link to the full Gospel Projects form 990 is in moderation, but, yes, T4G is listed as the main Program Service

Darlene wrote:

Lydia wrote:

okrapod wrote:

. I vote for freedom and more freedom for couples as they do what works for themselves. And I vote for fewer and fewer people, including pastors, who try to micro-manage other people’s lives and choices.

Amen!

Second Amen! But I can say with a good amount of certainty that this will not happen in the majority if New Calvinist churches. Control and micro-managing is how they keep their members. It is how their leaders stay in power.

That is what I have found so interesting about the Denhollanders and the NeoCal/Reformed movement they are a part of. How they choose to live their life is none of my business. But it’s an interesting aspect to consider since comp Doctrine has been marketed as the gospel.

Lydia wrote:

Gospel Project? Is that the name of the nonprofit?

“The Gospel Project” is a Bible study series by Lifeway. Not surprisingly, many of the links in its site go to TGC articles.

“Gospel Projects” appears to be something different. Its address is 525 A Street, N.E. Washington, D.C. 20002. This is the same address as Capitol Hill Baptist Church, pastored by Mark Dever. This is the same address used for sending donations to 9Marks (from the 9Marks donation page: “Checks should be made payable to ‘9Marks’ and mailed to: 9Marks, 525 A Street NE, Washington, DC 20002.”)

There is another ministry with that same address: http://thefrontporch.org/about/meet-the-brothers-on-the-front-porch/. Thabiti Anyabwile is one of the big players in 9Marks and TGC. “The Front Porch National Conversation” is sponsored by T4G, Lifeway, and TGC. It’s not clear to me how T4G can sponsor anything if they are not something like a real organization.

I’m normally not bad at finding things on the web, but I have not been able to find anything about “Gospel Projects.” Yet it seems to be bankrolling T4G and other New-Calvinist things per info provided by Jerome and Chemie. None of these sites mention “Gospel Projects.” Something does not smell right…

@ Ken F (aka Tweed):

Same here Ken. Really strange how absent is information on this religious racket online.

Pre-launch physical address in 2005 was given as:

“The Together for the Gospel conference staff may be contacted at:

Together for the Gospel Conference
7505 Muncaster Mill Road
Gaithersburg, MD”

https://web.archive.org/web/20050729030630/http://www.togetherforthegospel.org:80/contact.php

Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

Something does not smell right…

Agree. One of the things that came up on old survivors site when CJ was busy fleeing CLC was his “conference” business located there. that was part of the negotiation of him leaving and taking that with him which ended up in Louisville in an East End office Park not far from where I live.

No one has really been able to piece all this together. I think it has several branches.

Bridget wrote:

You can’t tell much from a revenue number without subtracting all the expenses. Just sayin. And I am no fan of this group.

Good Point – The Gospel Projects 990 is available for 2015 (when it gained nonprofit status), and 2016.
-2015 Gross Revenue: $1,066,144
-2015 Expenses: ($318,105)
-2015 Net Revenue: $748,039
______________________________
-2016 Gross Revenue: $1,680,996
-2016 Expenses: ($2,131,574)
-2016 Net Revenue: ($450,581)
______________________________
Note that Gospel Projects supports two main conferences: the CROSS missions conferences, held on odd years at the Louisville Convention Center, and the T4G conference, held on even years at the KFC Yum! Center.

An interesting note: T4G was held at the convention center through 2010. 2012 was the first year of T4G at the KFC Yum! Started. 2013 was the first year of the CROSS conference. Reading between the lines, it looks as if the CROSS missions conference was started to pay the rent for T4G.

March 2006, T4G guys at John MacArthur’s Shepherds event, getting putting-on-a-conference tips from Mac’s man Dan Dumas:

https://web.archive.org/web/20060426193040/http://blog.togetherforthegospel.org:80/2006/03/shepherds_confe.html

Ligon Duncan: “It was a blessing to be with John MacArthur and his team, and the good folks of Grace Community Church at this year’s Shepherds’ Conference. I have never been so well-taken care of in my life…Dan Dumas is a genius at organization and a gracious host.”

https://web.archive.org/web/20060427104723/http://blog.togetherforthegospel.org:80/2006/03/california_drea.html

Mark Dever: “Throughout the week Matt Schmucker (9Marks) & Paul Medler (Sovereign Grace) were there, getting expert help from Dan Dumas in preparing for the Together for the Gospel Conference…a special after time organized by Dan Dumas & Eric Bancroft was fun, humbling & incredibly kind. I kept thinking that there was some mistake, me sitting there being honored with CJ, Lig & Al. Dan & Eric, thanks so much!”

A TWW post in 2010 noted:

“According to Kevin’s DeYoung…the planning of Together for the Gospel falls squarely on the shoulders of three key individuals at 9Marks and Sovereign Grace Ministries.”

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevin-deyoung/praying-for-t4g/

“the folks working behind the scenes…three men in particular…:

Paul Medler (Sovereign Grace)
Matt Schmucker (9Marks)
Andrew Sherwood (9Marks)

Paul Medler…wrote: ‘the key people are Matt Schmucker, assisted by Andrew Sherwood (both 9Marks) and me.'”

Lydia wrote:

No one has really been able to piece all this together.

But Jerome seems to be doing a pretty good job. Following the money here could be very enlightening.

“Tips for TG4 2016” advised:

“There is a bookstore that’s bigger than your elementary school…pack a collapsible wagon. Get ready to ship some books home via UPS.”

http://jamedders.com/tips-for-t4g/

Darlene wrote:

Some women seem hardwired to be part of that environment, and will not allow themselves to think outside the narrow box of patriarchy that confines them. In fact, they would say that they are not confined at all and feel quite secure and happy. Different strokes for different folks.

I guess I would have to agree with you Darlene. I know folks like that. It’s sad to see any child of God in bondage to the teachings and traditions of men, not able to walk freely in Christ.

Max wrote:

Muff Potter wrote:

okrapod wrote:

I do not think that comp will totally go away.

Nor do I. But I think that it will no longer enjoy the absolutism of a non-negotiable doctrine thundered out of Horeb (so to speak) by the various brands of Protestant Evangelicalism.

The end result of complementarity will be just a bunch of old authoritarian guys sitting in their little Horeb patriarchies enjoying each other … their women will be long gone.

I remember visiting a group of *Christians* in a small coastal community in Scotland to preach the gospel about 20 years ago. Only the men were permitted to speak. The women were to remain silent. The same rules applied to their business meetings. Interestingly, the women were perfectly happy with the situation – they had already told their men what they had to say before the meeting took place. I heard one women from that community comment that although the man might be the head, the woman was the neck.

Forrest wrote:

I heard one women from that community comment that although the man might be the head, the woman was the neck.

Lol. I have heard that before and it kind of negates their entire doctrine. So the men are just marionette dolls?

What’s even better is if she tells him wrong, she is in the clear. Maybe that is the draw?

Deb wrote:

And then there’s this…

T4G offers 2,000+ titles in a curated bookstore covering 70,000 square feet across two locations in The Galt House Hotel and the Main Concourse of the Yum! Center, where our main sessions gather. Lifeway, our bookstore partner, has negotiated handsome discounts with the publishers that are only available during the three-day conference.

Well, Lifeway has apparently not withdrawn Mahaney’s books, which means he will still make a lot of money off of this conference. Here is their list of books: https://www.amazon.com/Gomorrah-Saviano-Roberto/dp/B001MEZJ1S/. It includes 14 titles with Mahaney. Even though Beth Moore is a big seller for Lifeway her name does not appear on the list. Coincidence?

Lifeway sponsors T4G but I cannot find any reference to T4G on the Lifeway website, not even under their list of events. The only way I could find this list was to do an internet search on “T4G Lifeway.” It’s almost like they don’t want their normal customers to know about this. Weird.

Darlene wrote:

Max wrote:

The end result of complementarity will be just a bunch of old authoritarian guys sitting in their little Horeb patriarchies enjoying each other … their women will be long gone.

Max, I’m going to disagree with you on this one. I think there will always be women in the patriarchal movement. Some women seem hardwired to be part of that environment, and will not allow themselves to think outside the narrow box of patriarchy that confines them. In fact, they would say that they are not confined at all and feel quite secure and happy. Different strokes for different folks.

I agree comp won’t go away. However if Rachel and Jacobs version of comp becomes more common, it moves closer and closer to a functionally egal and at the very least a much more healthy marriage relationship. So I’m glad to see Rachel and Jacob seemingly living out what comp at its core should be called look like.

@ Steve240:
Saw that yesterday. Great article!

@ Ricco:

“There is only following the path to God that each of us was born with. If that involves a “traditional” family with the mom staying home with the kid and the dad working, great! If the mom wants to be a CEO or a soldier or a lumberjack, great!”
+++++++++++++++++

this may go along with what you’re saying here — i think life, liberty, & the pursuit of happiness factor in.

it is so depressing to think that my life must be dictated by finding the path that leads to God.

I remember that popular bible study “Experiencing God” many years ago — the premise was finding where God was at work and joining God there. I think the opposite is what is valid.

I believe God finds us where we are ‘at work’ and God joins with us there. in fact, it just happens (just like $h|t happens). it’s as sure as the sun rising this very day (which i’m watching out my window), and tomorrow, the next day. as sure as air being there when we breath in.

work… play… whatever it is we might be doing. i think christians (& other religious people) discount happiness for its own sake. too much freedom in it. too scary a thought, like riding a bike “with no hands” (how can that possibly work, who knows where you’ll swerve!) turns out it works fine. one’s body is able to find other ways to steer.

I believe — no, i know that God finds us in the midst of our happiness for its own sake. hell, He’s enjoying it as much as we are.

(i don’t mean to divorce happiness from right/wrong, wise/unwise)

i think christians (& other religious people) are afraid of decision-making. really afraid of choices. what if i choose A, but C was the right one? is that sin? will God be disappointed? what cosmic eternal consequences will that unleash?!? surely the sky will fall!!

enter professional christians to tell everyone what decisions to make. Because only God’s best is acceptable. And of course they decide what qualifies as ‘God’s best’.

However, i think God can work with plan A, B, C, D… and i think God especially enjoys it when we as individuals exercise our moxie, make our own decisions, and tread with traction going forward in life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. if God has spiritual adrenalin, it kicks in as He treads on with us. we work together, God & us.

i think God respects our decisions, choices, and works with them. be they about sheer practicality, duty, self-fulfillment, personal preference, happiness, self-denial.

christian culture causes people to nervously second-guess their own lives and to be afraid of liberty and the pursuit of happiness. it shouldn’t be this way.

elastigirl wrote:

christian culture causes people to nervously second-guess their own lives and to be afraid of liberty and the pursuit of happiness. it shouldn’t be this way.

I could not agree more with this. Your whole comment was spot on.

One thing I have learned is that thing a people say that may be positive, when heard through the fundagelical lense, can put us right back in bondage.

I’ve been really impacted by Brennan Manning’s books, especially his writing about the true self/false self. What I meant by the “path to God” comment was that when we live out of our true self, not out of the insecurity that causes us to build a false self to convince everyone we are better than we are, that life leads towards God. I did NOT mean it in the sin-conscious way that makes us triple think every decision and couch every decision in religious terms. I have been there, and for me, that way lies madness.

I don’t think we need to go in search of our path. The happy people I know, Christian and not, have followed the good desires that they have. I had to stop believing total depravity when I started thinking this way, and that has made my outlook so much more positive.

Lydia wrote:

Forrest wrote:

I heard one women from that community comment that although the man might be the head, the woman was the neck.

Lol. I have heard that before and it kind of negates their entire doctrine. So the men are just marionette dolls?

What’s even better is if she tells him wrong, she is in the clear. Maybe that is the draw?

Control without responsibility.

Max wrote:

Meghan wrote:

I’m glad to see Rachel and Jacob seemingly living out what comp at its core should be called look like.

Yes, there is Comp and then there is comp. My wife and I have been married nearly 50 years. We are both believers. Her spiritual gifts complement mine. We are a team. The Body of Christ is called to oneness, not sameness. It functions best when we recognize and treat each other as equals in our walk with Christ, for “in Christ” there are to be no distinctions of race, class or gender – no abusive lording over others.

It sounds like you both have much wisdom to pass on, Max.

Ricco wrote:

Professional Christians preach that we are all hopelessly separated from God.

I don’t believe that anymore, and it has radically improved my outlook on life.

I too am glad I left that brand of theology behind. It was debilitating, stultifying, and filled with despair.

elastigirl wrote:

i think God respects our decisions, choices, and works with them. be they about sheer practicality, duty, self-fulfillment, personal preference, happiness, self-denial.

Not according to them. God has a plan for your life that is completely scripted and mapped out.

Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

“A quarter-century ago when these mistakes were first being made in Sovereign Grace’s homes, schools and churches, no one knew what we know now.” (Tim Bayly)

Well, folks, that’s about the weakest defense of C.J. that you will ever hear!

Those who call themselves Christians know the difference between right and wrong now better than they did 25 years ago?! We should look at mistakes in ministry then on a different plane than now? Good Lord, these folks are digging deeper for more shallow excuses for C.J. and SGM.

Muff Potter wrote:

Not according to them. God has a plan for your life that is completely scripted and mapped out.

Wm. Paul Young talks about God being an artist rather than an engineer. That has been a very helpful analogy for me. Basically, the entirety of the Shack has helped me see God in a more positive way. (and all the right people think that book is from the Devil. Piper, Mohler, etc.):-)

@ Ricco:

i’m a musician as well. i’ve totally given up on church as a venue. yuck. if it is received, it’s laden with legislation. she was too focussed on the music, she wasn’t worshipping, she was showing off, she wasn’t demure enough, she wasn’t dressed right, it sounded too “worldly”, it was too loud, it was too much this, not enough of that.

ridiculous.

and now i’m free to play music i actually enjoy, minus the non-intuitive forced lyrics that i frankly have no feeling for. (not to mention the male-centric dynamic of rehearsals — nothing like being invisible, ignored, and dismissed)

elastigirl wrote:

not to mention the male-centric dynamic of rehearsals — nothing like being invisible, ignored, and dismissed)

That sounds awful. I’m glad you aren’t being put through that anymore.

I don’t play an instrument that is ever used in worship music, so I’ve mostly avoided that. I’ve played for more than my share of jerk conductors, but they aren’t being jerks “in the name of Jesus,” so it’s not as hard to take

Ricco wrote:

Wm. Paul Young talks about God being an artist rather than an engineer.

I like to think that the Almighty is both (artist and engineer). Perhaps best embodied in William Blake’s The Ancient of Days:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ancient_of_Days
I’m a long time Blake fan.

Btw, I loved The Shack! And yeah, fundagelicals (both reformed and non) fumed and farted over it as being blasphemous.

@ Muff Potter:

“Mike, you’re overplaying right there, and it was the woman’s genome God chose to bring himself into this world with, Not The Man’s.”

Now that will get his attention. Muff, you’re a genius!

@ Ricco:
It certainly got an important conversation started! I also think that in many ways it helped make ESS more obvious to current Christians. Through him, I found the very interesting scholar and former Calvinist, Baxter Kruger and although quite different and interesting, Francois du Toit and his Mirror bible.

None of this is an endorsement of anything. I just love to research this stuff. Young is too “universalist” for my taste despite his protest to the contrary. I don’t feel like a bad person for admitting I don’t want to spend eternity on a redeemed earth with Pol Pot, for example. Francois is a bit too charismatic for my taste but his Mirror bible “mirrors” some of the research I had already done. 🙂

You just never know where things lead!

@ Ricco:
“The point is this. The arts are not the pretty but irrelevant bits around the border of reality. They are the highways into the center of a reality which cannot be glimpsed, let alone grasped, any other way. The present world is good, but broken and in any case incomplete; art of all kinds enables us to understand that paradox in its many dimensions. But the present world is also designed for something which has not yet happened. It is like a violin waiting to be played: beautiful to look at, graceful to hold-and yet if you’d never heard one in the hands of a musician, you wouldn’t believe the new dimensions of beauty yet to be revealed. Perhaps art can show something of that, can glimpse the future possibilities pregnant within the present time.”

― N.T. Wright, Simply Christian: Why Christianity Makes Sense

@ Ricco:
I do appreciate those who teach in a way that makes me think and seek more information instead of preaching at me or emotionally manipulate. I find Wright interesting for historical context. He was originally an Ancients Scholar before he became a Theologian. I find plenty to disagree with him on, too. He certainly gets that, it seems.

Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

Steve240 wrote:
Anyone seen this.
https://warhornmedia.com/2018/03/07/c-j-maheney-learning-from-our-brothers-mistakes/
Sure sounds like a kool-aid drinker.
I read it. Pure BS. Basically says mistakes were made (as opposed to crimes), we all sin (sin leveling), it was a quarter of a century ago (ancient history), we know more now (as if no one would have though it wrong back then).
“A quarter-century ago when these mistakes were first being made in Sovereign Grace’s homes, schools and churches, no one knew what we know now.”
And the credit he gives to Rachael is undone by his disappointment that a woman had to do it rather than a man. Pretty sick all around.

He describes Rachael as a mother who has been trained as a lawyer. I wonder if he woukd describe himself as a father who as been trained as a pastor.

Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

Steve240 wrote:
Anyone seen this.
https://warhornmedia.com/2018/03/07/c-j-maheney-learning-from-our-brothers-mistakes/
Sure sounds like a kool-aid drinker.
I read it. Pure BS. Basically says mistakes were made (as opposed to crimes), we all sin (sin leveling), it was a quarter of a century ago (ancient history), we know more now (as if no one would have though it wrong back then).
“A quarter-century ago when these mistakes were first being made in Sovereign Grace’s homes, schools and churches, no one knew what we know now.”
And the credit he gives to Rachael is undone by his disappointment that a woman had to do it rather than a man. Pretty sick all around.

Oh, yes. At least he’s consistent in his wrongness. It was Tim Bayly who said it was wrong for women to call out John Piper and Doug Wilson, as I recall. I don’t know if he went so far as to say that it would be better to have false preaching than to have a woman point it out (if a man couldn’t be bothered to), but that’s the impression that I remember.

Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

Dee, Deb or GBTC, could one of you replace the link above with this one: https://www.lifeway.com/pastors/t4g-resource-list/. I pasted the wrong link. The book by Roberto Saviano is very pertinent to the way T4G has connections to “Gospel Projects” but that is a different topic. Thanks.

The link above did not work for me Ken.

Todd Wilhelm wrote:

The link above did not work for me Ken.

Try it again. It seems to work now (it did not work about an hour ago).

Deb wrote:

And then there’s this…

T4G Bookstores

T4G offers 2,000+ titles in a curated bookstore covering 70,000 square feet across two locations in The Galt House Hotel and the Main Concourse of the Yum! Center, where our main sessions gather. Lifeway, our bookstore partner…

A “curated” bookstore? Interesting way to describe the arrangement.

‘Curated’ as in no Bibles except the ESV and a few HCSB!

Thanks, Ken F, for finding this complete list of the items allowed to be sold at T4G’s ‘curated’ conference bookstore in 2014, posted by Jonathan Howe, Lifeway’s ‘Director of Strategic Initiatives’:

https://www.lifeway.com/pastors/t4g-resource-list/

@ Root 66:
Jerome wrote:

Thanks, Ken F, for finding this complete list of the items allowed to be sold at T4G’s ‘curated’ conference bookstore in 2014,

Every now and then I miss obvious important details. In this case I missed the part about it being a 2014 T4G bookstore rather than the upcoming one. But this highlights an even bigger question for me. Why is it not possible to find any reference to Lifeway’s sponsorship of T4G on the main Lifeway web site? And why does their pastors site not include any info after 2014? It could be that I am searching their sites incorrectly, but I would think that as the major sponsor of T4G they would show some kind or reference linking Lifeway with T4G. What is a good explanation?

Serving Kids in Japan wrote:

Although it seems even Bayly had the sense not to try that with Rachael. Slightly more intelligence than the SGC goons have shown.

It would be like Ken Ham going up against Marie Curie.

@ Jerome:
Curated? I am trying to figure out how they are using this word. Carefully chosen for you by the big cheeses? Approved by the experts?

https://paulwilkinson.wordpress.com/2014/04/11/an-outsider-looks-at-together-for-the-gospel/

“One of the things that really stood out to me was the constant reference to the conference bookstore. In addition to some books that delegates received gratis, there were books promoted by the chairperson for each session, and discussion panelists who mentioned a book were often informed seconds later that the particular title was indeed, available at the store.”

Jerome wrote:

and discussion panelists who mentioned a book were often informed seconds later that the particular title was indeed, available at the store

Pure coincidence…