“Above all, don’t lie to yourself. The man who lies to himself and listens to his own lie comes to a point that he cannot distinguish the truth within him, or around him, and so loses all respect for himself and for others. And having no respect he ceases to love.” ― Fyodor Dostoyevsky, The Brothers Karamazov
The statements from Austin Stone Church and Larry Cotton
Here are the two statements regarding the resignation by Larry Cotton that I have already posted. Please note the highlighted areas (editor highlighted).
Message from Larry Cotton:
Church family,
Over the last few weeks, after seeking much counsel and prayer, I want to be the first to let you know that on Thursday, February 15, I informed the elders at The Austin Stone Community Church of my decision to step down from my staff ministry leadership position. It has been my honor to be a part of what the Lord is doing here at The Austin Stone Community Church. I have been extremely privileged to serve with brothers and sisters whose ultimate goal is to see Jesus lifted high, and I will greatly miss working here. I know this is the beginning of a new season for me, and I have peace that God will use me for His glory.
Brokenness and sin have unraveled the fabric of our world, resulting in injustice, pain, and suffering. I am more convinced than ever that the only One able to mend the brokenness and unraveling of this fabric is Jesus Christ. To the best of my ability, with God’s power, I desire to be a man that He might use to mend this brokenness.
This is why I want to express again my deepest grief and sorrow for Jules Woodson and all those who were wounded by what happened in 1998. During my leave of absence, I have come to better understand the weight of my mistakes and my responsibilities as a church leader at that time. I wish I had known 20 years ago what I understand today. I now understand that I did not do enough to serve Jules and help her feel protected and cared for —I wish I had done more. I understand that I failed to report the sexual abuse —I wish I had reported to the proper authorities. Even though it’s impossible, I wish I could go back in time and correct these mistakes.
I contributed to the pain and suffering of Jules and others, and for this, I feel great sorrow. I can identify with the words of Paul in the scriptures that help me see–Jesus came into the world to save sinners–of whom I am the worst. But I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his perfect patience as an example for others who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Only Jesus can mend the unraveling caused by sin and weave in true justice, peace and healing.
I am praying for healing for Jules; that she might be comforted by the peace of Christ even in the midst of her pain. I hope for her forgiveness of me. I pray for The Austin Stone to continue to be a safe and Christ-honoring environment for men, women, students, and children to grow spiritually and flourish. And I thank you, my church family, for your continued love and prayers.
I love you all dearly.
Larry Cotton//
Message from the Elders:
Church family,
As you recall from our communications to you beginning January 5th, an allegation was made against Larry Cotton regarding his response to the reported sexual assault of a young woman by a youth leader at the church where he was on staff in 1998. Given the seriousness of the allegations, we placed Larry on leave of absence, and engaged the attorneys at MinistrySafe to conduct a thorough investigation.
During this season, Larry has been prayerful in seeking after the Lord for wisdom and clarity as to how to honor the Lord and act in obedience to God’s word. As a result of much prayer and counsel, Larry has communicated to the elders on February 15th that he desires to step down from his staff ministry leadership position at the Austin Stone Community Church, effective immediately. In recognizing and grieving for his errors of the past, Larry is illustrating the kind of Christlike character we know and affirm in Larry today.
As a church, it is our desire to help him seek forgiveness from those who were hurt and foster any reconciliation that might be possible in the future. Even though he is no longer on staff, Larry does remain in good standing as a partner of our church. Through this process, we have affirmed our belief that Larry did not intend to cause harm, but we understand and support his decision in light of the consequences of his actions. We are heartbroken for Larry and we will deeply miss his presence on staff, as well we are committed to shepherding and caring for him and his family.
We invite you to join us in praying for compassion, wisdom, and discernment as we journey forward. We have also already begun the process of working with MinistrySafe to review our policies and update training for all of our staff and leaders on preventing and reporting abuse. We continue to remain committed to ensuring the safety of victims and advocacy for individuals who have suffered abuse. We strongly urge you to report to Child Protective Services or appropriate criminal authorities if you suspect the sexual abuse of a minor.
If you have further questions or concerns, please contact your campus leadership. We would love to hear from you.
Grace and peace,
The Elders of The Austin Stone Community Church
Amy Smith of Watch Keep requested and received this clarification today from a pastor at Austin Stone Church.
What do these statements tell us?
I will have been writing about sex abuse in the church for 9 years in March. This is the first time that I can report to you that a clear expression of guilt has been made in the mishandling of sex abuse. That includes what many believe was Matt Chandler’s *apology* at The Village Church. Amy Smith and I were privy to some of the behind the scenes maneuvering in that case and we know that people were not told the entire story. We are not at liberty to say more on the matter but it is frustrating, to say the least.
I am pleased that one of the members of The Gospel Coalition (TGC), Austin Stone Church, has actually acted to bring some form of justice in a sex abuse situation. Given that TGC is stuck in a bad romance with “He whose name must not be spoken,” I had despaired that any of their churches would ever move beyond lip service. So, this is a tip of the hat to Austin Stone.
Here are the important points made by Pastor Yeng about Cotton.
- He is no longer in any leadership positions at the church.
- He no longer has a staff position with the church.
- He has no responsibilities with the Austin Stone Institute.
Here are the salient points made by Larry Cotton.
- He said that Jules Woodson did experience sex abuse at the hands of Andy Savage.
- He said he should have reported this sexual abuse of Woodson by Savage,the youth pastor, to the authorities.
- He admits he didn’t do enough to protect and care for her.
Andy Savage abused his position as pastor with Jules Woodson, a student in the high school ministry and everyone knows it.
This case is totally clear cut.
- Savage has admitted the sexual incident occurred, but has attempted to portray it aa a simple case of *doing it* between a stupid college guy and his gal pal. However, he has never denied it happened.
- Chris Conlee stated he knows exactly what happened.
- Andy Savage was 22 years old and an ordained youth pastor when he took Jules who was 17 down the dark road. Teachers who do the same thing go to jail. Since we do not see people protesting when a 22 year old teacher go to jail for having sex with a high school senior, we can assume most people in society believe that a pastor doing the same thing is also a serious offense.
- One day after the assault, Larry Cotton was told by Jules Woodson what happened. With great difficulty, she told him the most intimate details of the encounter. If this was merely some horizontal *incident,* why did she go to her pastor to report it? Can you imagine being a 17 year old young woman and having to say this stuff to an adult? This is further indication of the seriousness of that *organic* experience in the mind of young Jules Woodson.
- Larry Cotton now states that this was sexual abuse.
- Larry Cotton now states that he should have reported this to the authorities.
This case was closed from the first minute when Savage and Conlee admitted what happened. Larry Cotton has simply put a padlock on the situation. There is nothing that can be said at this point that will justify the actions of Conlee, Savage and Bradley.
Red flags for the safety of the youth Highpoint Memphis
Imagine sending older high school students to this church’s youth program, knowing that these pastors think that sex between a 22 year old pastor and a 17 year old kid is nothing to get upset about. One and done, ya know. Does it raise any red flags for you? It does for me.
Last year, we had to inform Highpoint Church that they had a pedophile leading worship. You can read about that here: Highpoint Church Memphis Has a Convicted Statutory Rapist Leading Worship. I would assume that the church does background checks, right? So why was that guy there? Given this history at Highpoint Memphis, along with Conlee blowing off Savage’s sex abuse. I would say that Highpoint Memphis has a problem. They MUST take sex abuse seriously.
The problem for Bradley, Savage and Conlee is how to do a work around.
Yes, there is more that could have been said by Cotton. However, what he has said has now created a serious problem from Bradley, Savage and Conlee. The pastor to whom Jules first reported now says this was sex abuse and that the police should have been involved. So, what are they going to say? Frankly, if all three of these men continue in their pattern of denial, they will forever be viewed as the guys who covered up a reportable sex abuse offense.
Today, the Commercial Appeal posted Pastor involved in Andy Savage sexual assault case resigns by Ron Macey of the USA Today Network.
Jim Pritchard, administrator at Highpoint, has said the investigation there by Fort Worth, Texas, attorney Scott Fredricks includes a review of past and present actions by church leaders regarding Savage, as well as the impact of those actions. Fredricks also is advising the church “as it makes decisions about the future of ministry at Highpoint.”
A separate investigation, expected to begin after the Savage review is complete, will evaluate the church’s child protection practices. MinistrySafe, also based in Fort Worth, will conduct that investigation.
I would say that the lawyers and the investigators have their tasks cut out for them. There is no solution to the problem. Highpoint Memphis cannot bring Savage back with a straight face. So, they will try some Bible gymnastics by repeating *imperfect people, forgiveness, organic, incidents, etc.” ad nauseam while having some worship leaders (hopefully having passed background checks) screaming “Savage and Conlee: you are worthy.” They will not medal in this event, for sure.
Can I say something to that *You are worthy* nonsense? There is someone worthy here but it is not Savage and it is not me. It is Jesus and I am frankly getting tired of *Bible light* people making themselves and their failed leadership the focus of their worship. It is time for some humility here but amidst the screaming performances and prophetic shenanigans, I’m not seeing it.
One final comment
Soon, Highpoint Memphis will see how the world views what has been going on in their church. They better pay attention if they take being the *light on the hill* somewhat seriously.
The ugly tweets attempting to embarrass Jules Woodson by talking about finances, teen years, etc. have been picked up nationally. How dare any of them pile on further abuse to that which Jules has already experienced. The stupid tweets by some people who think they have been gifted with spiritual discernment have been noted with shaking heads. The church members may see these tweets coming right back at them. When they do, I hope they think about it.
As of this moment, Highpoint Memphis and its leadership are in no way prepared to care for victims of sex abuse. It is ludicrous for them to think that they are, given their response to Jules Woodson. Instead of channeling ridiculous prophecies, the pastors and church members need to spend some time in repentance for their woeful, damaging response to the pain that Jules Woodson experienced.
So folks, sit back and watch this Olympic worthy event: Bible gymnastics! It is sure to be fascinating.
Note: I have emailed Chris Conlee and Steve Bradley for comments regarding Larry Cotton’s resignation. I have yet to receive a response.
Love the best of galaxies pic!
As for the rest of the post. It’s pretty much a slam dunk that would have remained hidden if tje victim had not spoken out.
Now people can make an informed decision about highpoint church.
And the darkness hates the light… Gymnastics or light hatred?
3?
As a refugee from The Village Church, I have no doubt there is “more to the story”. I think a book could be filled with the staff and members who have left with more to their stories. Before we left, they were talking non-stop about revival. Years ago, I would have thought they really cared about revival, by the time we left I was certain they were just terrified because attendance was down.
Who do they think they are fooling?
4
This is excellent:
“Can I say something to that *You are worthy* nonsense? There is someone worthy here but it is not Savage and it is not me. It is Jesus and I am frankly getting tired of *Bible light* people making themselves and their failed leadership the focus of their worship. It is time for some humility here but amidst the screaming performances and prophetic shenanigans, I’m not seeing it.”
Highpoint Church: It looks like your goose is cooked. It’s time to stop idolizing Andy Savage and defending him. It’s time to stop re-victimuzing Jules Woodson! The next move is with you. Are you going to do the right thing?
I see no other option for Savage except resignation. That said, I expect him to follow the Mark Driscoll/Perry Noble model which is to lay low for about one year, perhaps attend a clinic for sex abusers, and then reappear in a pulpit proclaiming he is all “healed up,” has been humbled by God, learned much about himself and is ready to be back on mission, doing the Lord’s work.
These guys can’t stay out of the spotlight, they crave the attention, power and money.
Powerful post.
Why? Because it is impossible to have truth and common decency in the church? No, rather because truth and decency – though the expected norm – are so rarely found that… [from the post]…
“This is the first time that I can report to you that a clear expression of guilt has been made in the mishandling of sex abuse.”
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
Driscoll didn’t even do the sex clinic thing. Instead he was taken under the wing of Robert Morris at Gateway DFW and paraded around through various churches before setting up shop in Scottsdale.
As for Andy Savage and Chris Conlee, my prediction is that they try to gut it up and get through the criticism. I suspect that Andy is the big draw and Highpoint might as well just close up shop if he leaves. I don’t know how Andy could start a new church with the whole Jules Woodson thing hanging over his head. Therefore, I expect him and Conlee to try and keep him at Highpoint.
@ Jack:
How many more instances are never reported?? It’s frightening to think of the darkness that hides in the churches and most importantly in the leaders.
Larry Cotton did the right thing. If Conlee and Savage truly cared for their “flock” they would man up and set an example. “You are worthy” to ‘do the right thing’.
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
There is still the lay low and wait till it blows over. Fortunately this tempest is lasting longer than they would wish and after a certain point of time it starts hitting the “church” hard in the pocket book.
Maybe he can resign, lay low for a while then do a comeback tour. Unfortunately the comeback tour bus is looking pretty crowded these days.
Excellent summation. Savage now becomes a pimple on Highpoint’s face. I think Conlee might well excise it to save himself. We’ll be watching.
I suspect that Conlee regards Savage as expendable if there is no other way of protecting Conlee. As to the HP members who were trashing Jules, TWW and others on Twitter, they only caused more damage to their own position. Sadly, we have seen so many failed *leaders* re-emerge after only a short time away from the pulpit that would not surprise me in the least if HP tried to do that with Savage. They are clueless when it comes to understanding Jesus and His real church.
WOW! 9 years! breakthrough! bless your hearts! keep pressing on… God is making some significant shifts! I’m also amazed at the recent letter from all 56 States/district/commonwealths regarding arbitration and confidentiality… pretty much miraculous in my view! Thank You Lord!
http://myfloridalegal.com/webfiles.nsf/WF/HFIS-AVWMYN/$file/NAAG+letter+to+Congress+Sexual+Harassment+Mandatory+Arbitration.pdf
SallyVee wrote:
Yes! This.
This is such a powerful post, thank you!!! And, thank you for all the work you do for survivors of abuse! It will be interesting to see how this ultimately plays out from here…
As an aside, I know you said you were not at liberty to elaborate more on the Matt Chandler apology, but I was wondering if you could confirm which apology you are referencing. The apology to Karen Hinkley (http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/06/10/an-apology-from-matt-chandlerelders-of-the-village-church-and-a-statement-of-forgiveness-from-karen-hinkley/), or the most recent apology he made about the way TVC was operating in their discipline process (https://youtu.be/ZRTDpICyXoo)?
I found it interesting Chandler opted to break up TVC into autonomous churches around the same time as this most recent apology, but also thankful. Having individual pastors at each location that know and Shepard their flock (verses a pastor they only typically see on a big screen) sends a clear message to predators about their ability to blend and be held accountable.
Windows of opportunity:
When Jules made her story public, there was a window of opportunity for a lot of people to do the right thing, but as we witnessed, not one did. Not the former pastors, nor the hundreds of people giving standing ovation in these pastor’s pews.
When national and international press picked up the story, there was another window of opportunity for them to come clean and for the supporters to demand righteousness. But that did not happen except for minor strategic manipulations of being placed on paid leave and the talk of investigations while openly trashing Jules.
Now, Larry Cotton has opened a new window of opportunity for these pastors and their supporters to do the right thing.
Windows of opportunity don’t stay open for long. Each time it shuts, the echo of slamming reverberates louder.
“Through this process, we have affirmed our belief that Larry did not intend to cause harm, but we understand and support his decision in light of the consequences of his actions.”
Oh well shucks, he didn’t mean any harm. *eyeroll*
@ Lance:
if you ever want to tell you story, let me know.
One thing I can say is that Chandler claimed that *heads would roll.* They didn’t. It just sounded good at the time. I knew one of the elders at TVC (at least I thought I did.) I called him asked “What were you thinking?” He wouldn’t say a word but then asked this question which proved that he didn’t get it. “Why did you start your blog?” I said “Because of stuff like this.”
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
Money is the elephant in the room, usually. They don’t want to give it up, so they try to ‘spiritualize’ staying.
Muslin fka Deana Holmes wrote:
There is something wrong with that guy, but I’m not sure I’ve ever heard him preach. Every time I visited I think there was a sub, like the awesome (/s) marriage sermon I got to hear one year.
everydayBRAVE5 wrote:
They are fooling themselves. Deep down inside, when all the hoopla on stage is finished, I bet they have a put in their stomachs because they know they screwed up. They mistreated Jules. Jules was abused once by Savage and then again by his church and those who concealed it.
I will be fascinated to see how these Christin lawyers handle this one.
Darlene. wrote:
This is the problem summed up! I think I will tweet it out!!
Tina wrote:
Ah. Very interesting. The whole discipline thing was described at my church as the ‘section you hope to never have to use’. These guys seem to approach it as ‘the section we can’t WAIT to get to use’.
Thanks to TWW and Brent Detwiler, I am FINALLY understanding the SGM/SGC debacle. Reading the original court documents (which I understand are only a fraction of the evidence) opened my eyes like nothing else. IF (big IF) Conlee/Savage were to also resign, this could help send further shock waves through the evangelical community, but Cotton’s actions are a good start. Thanks for your tenacious efforts on these important matters.
@ Tina:
“We are free to give counsel but that counsel is not authoritative”. Bam. Yes. This is after he talks about counsel that is not ‘heeded’ and turns into control.
I don’t know if Matt Chandler means this, but it’s absolutely the case and the root of some of these problems.
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
We believe that they are jumping through hoops to keep Savage around. They want him back in March in the worst way. You can see why. Savage was the charismatic one. Conlee doesn’t have it and I suspect he doesn’t want it. We have heard that they have lost people over this and maybe Conlee’s bizarre teaching.
Everything got screwed up when Savage wouldn’t answer the initial email. When we heard from Jules after she wrote it, we waited for an entire month to see if he would pull on his big boy pants and deal with it. he would not do it. Our little group was calling it “Andy’s Complicated Christmas” after a sermon series he was doing during this time.
Can you imagine Savage preaching on conflict, etc. knowing that Jules had reached out to him? I couldn’t do it because I would feel so guilty. But, he powered on, just like he did years ago. This man has a personality defect along with a sin problem.
I would never put my kids in their youth program because they have already told us how they will handle it If something goes wrong. “It’s the kid’s fault.” The pastors will never bear the responsibility unless they are made to do so. That sort of response means the kids are not safe.
I think this one is going to be interesting to watch. I agree. They will pull a Driscoll/Mahaney/Noble and make up some stupid meme like “Second Chance Church.” Whoops- that one is already taken by Noble who looks hammered every time he speaks. Maybe he is just a dry drunk. I don’t know.
Lance wrote:
THIS! I have sat through so many revival messages in unhealthy churches! I have come to the conclusion the messages have more to do with the pastors’ ambitions than a desire to reach the lost.
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
Savage has been feeding at the church trough at least since he was 22. What else is he qualified for? Most of these “pastors” have no marketable skills and are highly paid in cushy jobs.
@ JYJames:
Frankly, I am bit startled. I know that Highpoint Memphis is planning on brining Savage back…well… was. Now they have a problem. The truth was known from the start but finally one of the guys from the *Savage was just a kid* side has spoken.
Muslin fka Deana Holmes wrote:
I totally agree with you. That is what we have been hearing. But now-they have problem. Savage and Conlee revictimized Jules claiming this was consensual. They want to *minister* to sex abuse victims. However, if they try to do this, it will be an absolute travesty and they will never live it down.
He is already known, behind the scenes, as Pastor Whip It Out. (I promise it did not come from Jules little support group.) They will be in for a ride.
“Last year, we had to inform Highpoint Church that they had a pedophile leading worship. You can read about that here: Highpoint Church Memphis Has a Convicted Statutory Rapist Leading Worship. I would assume that the church does background checks, right? So why was that guy there?”
They knew before you wrote this blogpost. They were informed as soon as he started attending there. One of the pastors has known him since childhood and knew the family of the girl he raped. He admitted they would do nothing about it.
@ Todd Wilhelm:
I came up with a name for church denomination made up of Savage, Conlee, Bradley, Driscoll, Noble- as nauseam….The First Church of No Consequences.
Mercy wrote:
Some have conjectured that Conlee will leave Highpoint and start a new church.
Forrest wrote:
There is a HUGE response coming soon.
“Last year, we had to inform Highpoint Church that they had a pedophile leading worship … I would assume that the church does background checks, right? So why was that guy there?” (Dee)
It appears that Conlee’s background check on Savage went something like this:
Conlee: Is there anything bad in your ministry background that I need to know about?
Savage: Yes, I %^&@#%& as a youth pastor in Texas.
Conlee: Whoa! Are you ever going to do that again?
Savage: No sir.
Conlee: OK. Let’s plant a church together.
Perhaps the pedophile worship leader was vetted in a similar way.
(As a sidenote, I find no examples of pedophile worship leaders in the Bible nor pastors who failed morally being restored to the ministry)
Lance wrote:
Bingo. I know Megas that build more buildings and/or open new satellite campi when attendance is down. Throw money, new marketing, more entertainment at the problem. But it’s always the non church goers fault. :). I know of one mega that is now deducting tithe from employees pay checks.
Bev wrote:
Thank you for this impt. comment. I just tweeted it out.
@ Tina:
It had to do with Karen Hinkley’s situation. As for Chandler, sometimes chis words don’t make it through to actions. They are merely nice ideas. That church has some worrisome DNA founded in authoritarian theology. Each of those pastors were chosen because they agree. Color me skeptical.
@ Remnant:
Good comment.
@ Max:
There is an example of one pervert who Paul shamed the Body about not kicking out.
dee wrote:
I know I mentioned ‘duping delight’ before and this isn’t it exactly, but it does seem rather interesting that these kinds of guys can do something and then go out and preach the exact opposite with no guilty feelings at all. Or they are good enough liars to hide them. One of the other. Andy’s done it twice, at least. What does that say about him and his trustworthiness?
NJ wrote:
yeah-I agree. He asked Jules is she participated which shocked her. My guess is eh will never use that phrase again.
Lance wrote:
Before you can be revived, you must first have been ‘vived’. There is no spiritual life in New Calvinism … it’s more about law, than life … more about doctrines of grace than an encounter with Grace, the living Christ. You cannot restore to life what never lived.
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
Yep, that’s what they do.
The watchblogs have done a great service for the Body of Christ – they have exposed dark corners of the church. In just the past year, I have read blog reports on the following types of folks attending American churches: child abusers, rapists, adulterers, serial pedophiles, alcoholics, liars, extortionists, narcissists of various types … and those were church leaders!!
My hope is that the organized church will sit up and take notice this time and declare enough and enough. The pew may have to take a lead on that; the pulpit appears reluctant to do so. May this Savage saga have a positive twist to it, with systems put in place to keep the unqualified out of the pulpit. Let’s replace the “Savage Syndrome” with a “Savage Lesson.”
Lydia wrote:
Before that rebuke, Paul had already warned the church that false teaching and ungodly conduct always goes with false doctrine. I’m certainly in favor of reaching lost people ensnared by the darkest of sins, but if church leaders have to twist Scripture to get them to church, they can’t truly help them out … if they preach any other ‘gospel’ but the Gospel of the Cross of Christ, they just make matters worse.
“Given that TGC is stuck in a bad romance with “He whose name must not be spoken,” I had despaired that any of their churches would ever move beyond lip service.”
I know that the situation is not funny at all, but the phrase “stuck in a bad romance with ‘He whose name must not be spoken'” made me laugh out loud!
Remnant wrote:
Beware of closing windows of opportunity on God’s fingers! Payday-someday is put into motion.
dee wrote:
And Dee also wrote:
dee wrote:
WOW. You have piqued our interest!!
Max wrote:
Except David. They LOVE to pull that one out…and run it into the ground. The “man after God’s own heart.” But then they never seem to arrive at the fact that David was not chosen for ministry…only military. Which is why his son was given the honor of building the temple…and not him. Not much Biblical research or too many sermons on that topic. No. Just that David screwed up royally…and God restored him.
And that has become the gold standard for pastors…and, it seems, everyone one else. Consequences of his actions? Oh, well – they usually glide past that, too. And don’t forget – Bathsheba is usually to blame in some way.
Tina wrote:
I’ll sum up for you in one word . . . lawsuits.
GC wrote:
I have to laugh or I would spend my days crying. So humor is part of my coping mechanism. Let me give you an example.
When my 3 1/2 year old daughter was about to have major neurosurgery for her brain tumor and I was 7 months pregnant with another little one at home, I was at the end of my rope. The neurosurgeon and his residents, etc said to me. “Get some rest. It’s going to be a big day tomorrow.”
I looked at him and suddenly saw humor in what he said. I responded “Au contraire,Doctor. I need you to get some sleep tonight. Get 8 hours and do not eat anything that will give you gas tomorrow. I need you in good shape more than me. ” He seriously nodded, they all walked out of the room and then I heard them all laughing as they walked down the corridor.
Remnant wrote:
This is what exposed the continued darkness of their hearts. That entire church staff, Conlee and Savage included, allowed Jules to be trashed on their churches social media sites and not one staff member put a stop to it.
No words for the disgust.
Charis wrote:
Yes! This is the argument that I placed on the Highpoint Memphis Facebook page when they were discussing David. He was NOT a priest but a king. Good allowed bad kings to sit on the throne and had warned the people “You want a king but you won’t like having a king.”
Most of the king that came after David were spoken of thusly. “Did evil in the sight of the Lord.”
So many people do not read their Bible in context. That is why I try to get everyone to read the whole Bible-even rather quickly- as opposed to focusing on individual verses. I recommend The Chronological Bible as well since it helps put things into time frames.
Whenever I hear a verse preached about, I sit back and think about that verse in context of the entire narrative. That has prevented me from going down the rabbit trail many many times.
PS My comment on the Facebook page was deleted. I guess Bible context is not wanted when it messes up their narrative.
Bridget wrote:
Did anyone save examples of these? This alone is enough to condemn the whole lot.
Charis wrote:
Sorry. I should have said “I find no examples of pedophile worship leaders in the NEW TESTAMENT nor pastors who failed morally being restored to the ministry.” When Jesus came, everything changed.
B wrote:
So, what you are saying is that we embarrassed them into getting rid of him? I suspected as much. This is not a safe church for kids in my opinion.
Charis wrote:
Good point.
dee wrote:
In explaining one (of the many) reasons we were leaving, I told a friend, “they told us at the member meeting that Matt and Josh had to make over 100 apologies. This does not include people who were hurt and chose not to come forward for whatever reason (I know of two personally) or people who had left and never heard that they were attempting to make amends. One hundred people hurt and yet they never announced that someone was getting fired. If one or two pastors did all this and didn’t get fired, there is a problem with judgement by the leadership. If this was spread over 20 staff who gave horrible, controlling advice to 5 people each, then there is a huge problem with the culture of leadership. You can pick what you choose to believe, but neither option is pretty.”
My story is pretty small in the grand scheme of things, the stories I know belong to others and at this point I don’t feel they are mine to tell. I am encouraging one person to come forward. We shall see.
Charis wrote:
I have had people argue with me about this.
We were looking at judges sunday at a very interesting passage about the trees wanting a king, and all the useful trees being uninterested, and ending up with the bramble, which is annoying, useless, and threatening, as king instead.
So when they finally got a king, they got David. Does that make David the bramble?
Lea wrote:
[OK, maybe Saul]
Still, go read that parable and then compare to all the David worship.
Dee Parsons wrote:
Yeah, I suppose I have a little New Calvinist in me because I like to twist Scripture every once in a while by taking text out of context to make a point. Like this woman thing everybody keeps talking about on TWW, subordinating them into submission, etc. What’s the big deal?! After all “God did not endow her with wisdom or give her a share of good sense.” (Job 39:17)
Disclaimer: Ole Max was just kidding!! I love and respect all female believers – I’m a Galatians 3:28 sort of guy. Really!! 🙂
one of the little people wrote:
Just like Trust Fund Kiddies.
Dee Parsons wrote:
Wisdom.
Never use the text-out-of-context eisegesis I employed in my last comment 🙂
@ dee:
The original post above, and Dee’s response here, sumarizes well the whole situtation. It is also a great case study. On multiple levels, starting with Jules contacting Andy Savages, this whole “blow up” could have been adverted, or moterated….
But no, Andy Savage et al demonstrated the lack of Christ like behavior over and over, and realy made the “organic incident” 20 years ago much worse.
So, there is a lesson here for all of us…. one needs to be very careful when exposing these disgusting situtations…. these perps can further hang themselves by their reactions if we are all careful, VERY honest, etc in our attempts to expose it!
dee wrote:
Looking forward to that! I hope Jules is encouraged by the suport of people from all over.
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GC wrote:
Being the Harry Potter geek that I am, I immediately thought of He-who-must-not-be-named. At least C.J. still has a nose.
@ NJ:
Meanwhile, I’ve been singing ‘caught in a bad romance’ all morning.
As one who has worked with churches when the pastor failed, I have learned that a pastor never fails on one dimension. If he does not keep his pants on, there is usually an undo grasping for power, and often taking more money or other benefit than properly approved and provided. It is power, sex AND money; rarely less than all three. Sometimes you have to get into the church books to find the money, and into the church council or business meeting minutes, and talk with the lay leadership to find the truth.
As one who has worked with churches when the pastor failed, I have learned that a pastor never fails on one dimension. If he does not keep his pants on, there is usually an undo grasping for power, and often taking more money or other benefit than properly approved and provided. It is power, sex AND money; rarely less than all three. Sometimes you have to get into the church books to find the money, and into the church council or business meeting minutes, and talk with the lay leadership to find the truth.
Dee, please remove the duplicate comment.
dee wrote:
I sincerely doubt they have any such pit in their stomachs. You and I, and pretty much everyone here at TWW would most definitely have a pit in the gut, but not them.
They don’t have a moral compass in the same way it’s generally thought of in the general populace.
About the only times they’ll get ‘morally outraged’ is when Bob and Bill wanna’ get married, if Jill is sleeping with Jane, or if hetero Harry and Hannah (both over 21) are doin’ the hanky-panky. That’s it.
dee wrote:
Sociopaths NEVER have “a pit in their stomachs”.
Because They Can Do No Wrong.
Always Sincere, Always In Control, Always Polite, Always WINNING.
Max wrote:
Too many Christians settle for Speaking in Tongues instead of Wisdom.
Lea wrote:
I think, according to the parable, that Abimelech is the bramble.
He murdered 70 of his brothers and was then appointed king by the leaders. They regretted their decision 3yrs later and hired men to lay in ambush for him. They tried 3 times to kill him (unsuccessfully). Instead, each time, Abimelech routed them – setting the city or towers afire.
In the end, a woman dropped a millstone upon him and crushed his skull. Not willing to bear the shame of being “killed by a woman” Abimelech asked a young man to kill him with his sword and was obliged.
The other thing about David is he paid a price for what he did to Uriah the Hittite. Bathsheba’s son died, and the sword didn’t depart from David’s house. David lost four sons in total before it was all over, which corresponds to David telling Nathan that man who stole the lamb needed to restore it fourfold.
@ Bridget:
After googling around a bit, it looks like someone actually took the audio of the 2015 TVC apology and dubbed it over a more recent still with audio. I don’t think there was a more recent public apology for anything. Just the splitting up of the mega church into aotonomous churches (which again, I think is a really, really wise move for proper she parsing the flock purposes).
Charis wrote:
I never thought of it that way. Thanks for some food for thought!
Robert M wrote:
Exactly. While David was forgiven, he lost the moral authority over his own house.
Tina wrote:
I have an issue trusting any Acts 29 church because they all have traces of Mark Driscoll,s (the man who founded Acts 29) DNA in them. Driscoll is regarded as the most abusive and coercive pastor in the U.S.
However, we need to recognize as positive this extensive apology, along with the many follow up meetings. Further, during the Exodus series Chandler spent several minutes discussing how TVC would never tolerate any kind is spousal abuse be it physical, sexual, verbal, psychological etc. he spoke very sternly to the men and promised that pastors would personally accompany victims to the police departments, if they like, to file charges and stand by them every step of the way. The statements were quite strongly worded.
Both actions are a far cry from the Karen Hinckley fiasco days. There is no doubt in my mind that TWW has been instrumental in affecting these drastic changes. The Deebs posts not only speak to leadership – they speak to members.
In order to be a covenant member at TVC one must renew that membership every year. The news coverage on these agreements at TWW has resulted in a decline in covenant members. Only a fraction of attendees now sign these agreements. At TVC you can’t be in a small group or volunteer without being a covenant member. Low membership rates cripple churches like this since volunteering and community groups are essential for growth. Matt realizes things have to change.
I pray that these changes were made for the right reasons. But personally I’ll take them either way. The Deebs are doing powerful work here. It’s a slow process but distinct progress is being made whether the Deebs get credit or not.
dee wrote:
If only it were the FIRST Church to have no consequences for evil behavior! (*sigh*)
dee wrote:
Looking forward to that.
LT wrote:
As some follow-up about the origins of Acts29, Mark Driscoll was one of the co-founders, along with David Nicholas, in 1998. It didn’t talk all that long for Nicholas to be written out of the story, even though he perhaps contributed more to the starting of the network than Driscoll did.
If interested in finding out more of that story, google David Nicholas + Acts29 + tallskinnykiwi [Andrew Jones, who is one of the longest-term evangelical/missional Christian bloggers and was there at the beginnings of Acts29]. Others, especially ex-Mars Hillites, have written about that write-out as well.
B wrote:
This is correct. They did know, but Heinz was providing a valuable service. He was working for free in their Video Production Dept. Highpoint loves their slickly produced videos. While Heinz was later asked to stay off the platform, I heard he continued working on videos.
Highpoint should consider that predators of adolescent girls (ages 12-14) often seek to assault that particular age group as their youth generally comes with inexperience and virginity. They are considered extremely high value targets. These serial predators like their trophies and guess what one of the most common trophies is? Surreptitiously filmed videos of the deflowering. A lot of predators hone their video skills so they can relive their conquests.
Highpoint/Conlee claim God is tasking them with establishing a ministry for victims. Yet they seem to know almost nothing about the nature of these crimes or the criminals who commit them.
If HP was willing to go forward with the Schilling Farm acquisition with Payne, then justify allowing Heinz to continue to work in Video Production, they certainly won’t be voluntarily chucking their rain maker.
Remnant is correct that ASCC just gave Highpoint another window to do the right thing before the reports come out. HP staff are still standing behind Andy. It may come down to Fredricks doing the right thing and concluding that Andy is DQd from ministry. Since he’s only looking at current ministry practices and makes his money from aiding churches, I have doubts that this will happen.
Perhaps Cotton stepping completely down will result in Fredricks reconsidering both Savage and Conlee’s fitness to serve as head shepherds. There is more than enough evidence to support this conclusion. Conlee is equally at fault here for concealing the existence of multiple predators on campus from parents as well as coplanting HP with a known predator despite Conlee knowing that Andy had not undergone a full restoration.
It may be up to the membership to act. I’ve heard that attendance at all three campuses is drastically down. HP does not have large cash reserves. Withholding offerings and/or leaving the church may be the only way to bring on change at a church covering up their third sex scandal in under two years.
@ brad/futuristguy:
Thanks! I’m definitely interested in reading about that. I have friends and family at TVC. It’s a big transition church for Gateway refugees.
LT wrote:
Whew! They escaped from one snare right into another.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
Like Lonnie Frisbee with Calvary Chapel.
“When Mark the Martian gets here
We will dance…”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmvCHwiDjDQ
(Especially the first few frames of the opening montage…)
Uppity Bimbo wrote:
And his act set chains of events in action.
Amnon sees Dad get away with it, figures So Can I, and rapes Tamar.
Absalom gets even with Amnon for Tamar, and then things just spiral out of control.
LT wrote:
That definitely adds an additional concern! Ugh. I am also thinking of that guy who was recording in bathrooms.
Maybe don’t put your predators in charge of film? (or anything really)
NJ wrote:
Going back 80+ years, I immediately thought of a Lovecraftian entity with the same moniker.
LT wrote:
That’s probably not a big issue to most TVC attendees. They just come on Sundays for the coffee and cool band.
@ NJ:
“Being the Harry Potter geek that I am, I immediately thought of He-who-must-not-be-named. At least C.J. still has a nose.”
++++++++++++++++++++
…and a new photoshop project is born.
elastigirl wrote:
Ha ha! You’d just have to remove his rather prodigious nose, make his eyes red (I really wish the movies had gotten this right), and put him in black robes post-Goblet of Fire.
Dever = Dolohov?
Mohler = Malfoy?
I’ll stop…
Going back 80+ years, I immediately thought of a Lovecraftian entity with the same moniker.
The only one I know of is Cthulu.
An Attorney wrote:
Truth! The question is will Scott Fredricks look into those books?
Andy Savage and Chris Conlee both have separate non-profit corporations they control. Andy’s 7000 Days Conferences (run by Andy Savage Ministries) uses Highpoint staff, buildings, marketing and other HP resources so that Andy can make some nice side cash.
Andy also posts his HP sermons under his private account like Driscoll did to ensure he retains control over the materials he was paid by HP to develop. This is done for future monetization purposes. From an integrity standpoint, they should rightfully belong to those who financed them – HP Church.
Conlee does the same with his Leadership Works Ministry and Conferences. HP provides the bulk of the support to run them but Conlee’s corp gets the revenues.
There’s also a big question as to who owns The Hub Coffee shop? HP does not show this as a HP Ministry and it is a money making operation. It’s open to the public 7 Days a week. They target local secular business leaders to rent their conference rooms while purchasing The Hub food and drinks.
Although The Hub states proceeds are given to local charities, there is no word on how much first goes to salaries, bonuses, luxury car expense, T&E, etc, which is the loophole used by unscrupulous pastors to get rich off these “proceeds go to charity” non-profits. It’s NET proceeds that are donated and the sketchiest ones never show you an expense breakdown or amounts actually donated. They just toss out names of beneficiaries or pie charts with no details. That’s what The Hub is currently doing. The lack of transparency on this is consistent with personal enrichment charity schemes run by pastors.
The Hub is managed by full time HP Pastor Peet Strydom. It uses an HP owned building and parking lot and Chris Conlee oversees marketing. But which corp is receiving the revenues? If it’s HP, why not list this as a ministry? You won’t find any reference to HP owning the Conlee promoted coffee shop here or on HP financials. https://www.thehubcoffee.org/story/ Please look into this Mr Fredricks.
These side corps can take in a lot of cash while being funded with church resources. There is no reason, save one, that a Parenting Ministry (7000 Days) shouldn’t be run out of HP or why a Business Leader Ministry wouldn’t also be run out of HP, especially when so much in Highpoint money and resources are dedicated to these two ministries. The same goes for the coffee house open to the public on church owned property. Who financed all the reno’s plus very expensive decor, furniture and professional restaurant equipment? It’s a first class operation. Who paid for it? https://vimeo.com/234494308 What corp receives the revenues?
This looks like self-dealing. Both Conlee and Savage were strongly ramping up these ops with their new books on the cusp of being released. Fredricks needs to look into those three operations and determine how much money Savage and Conlee are making in secret off of ministries that really should be under the HP umbrella. What’s next? Charging for parking or baby sitting?
Fredricks needs to request bank statements, financials and tax returns from every HP pastor to determine how much ministry money is going to their personal non-profit corps that arguably should belong to the church and the tithe paying members that are funding the operational expenses as well as providing the bulk of the customers for Conlee and Savage’s side businesses.
At the very least, this is deceptive. It may also be influencing the decision to keep Andy on staff. Both head pastors willing to look the other way on profiteering off of church resources is an enabling system. Chris’ next teaching pastor may want the self dealing stopped. It’s a sure thing that Andy won’t say anything.
Lea wrote:
Thanks, now I’ve got to go listen to the few Lady Gaga tunes I like.
dee wrote:
Looking forward to it.
Thanks for all you do. Blessings to Jules.
@ brad/futuristguy:
Like this
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_images_in_the_Soviet_Union
They never existed, comrade.
My very first intro to Driscoll was in Donald Millers “Blue Like Jazz” talking about the cussing pastor who mentored him. Seems like decades ago. Back when Driscoll was “emergent”.
Lea wrote:
Thinking about David and brambles… reminds me of 2 Samuel 24:
11 Before David got up the next morning, the word of the Lord had come to Gad the prophet, David’s seer: 12 “Go and tell David, ‘This is what the Lord says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.’”
13 So Gad went to David and said to him, “Shall there come on you three[b] years of famine in your land? Or three months of fleeing from your enemies while they pursue you? Or three days of plague in your land? Now then, think it over and decide how I should answer the one who sent me.”
14 David said to Gad, “I am in deep distress. Let us fall into the hands of the Lord, for his mercy is great; but do not let me fall into human hands.”
15 So the Lord sent a plague on Israel from that morning until the end of the time designated, and seventy thousand of the people from Dan to Beersheba died. 16 When the angel stretched out his hand to destroy Jerusalem, the Lord relented concerning the disaster and said to the angel who was afflicting the people, “Enough! Withdraw your hand.” The angel of the Lord was then at the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.
17 When David saw the angel who was striking down the people, he said to the Lord, “I have sinned; I, the shepherd,[c] have done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done? Let your hand fall on me and my family.”
NJ wrote:
It is quite possible he was sincere. I think his current actions speak to that. I have known a lot of christians who were very sincere in their actions based on toxic doctrine because they were doing their best to walk in a way pleasing to God. Unfortunately for them, what they were taught caused them to hurt others. I personally know at least one who came to a realization and offered personal, specific apologies to a long list of people, including those who were already long gone from that church.
So yes, I can see where he sincerely did not mean any harm, that he thought he was doing the right thing, that he was doing the best he could do with the understanding he had at the time.
God is gracious enough to reward those who seek Him, sometimes. It seems obvious from the apology that he acted in good faith 20 years ago (not knowing how toxic it was at the time), but now he recognizes and owns the harm he did. I would be inclined to give him kudos for that.
Lydia wrote:
Yes, part of Stalinist control was to “disappear” people and then remove all traces of their existence as an act of disinformation. Mark Driscoll seems to continue using this continual rewriting of the past in his Orwellian *Ministry of Truth* Trinity/Mark Driscoll Ministries propaganda.
Here’s what I wrote in my 2015 case study of Mark Driscoll/Mars Hill, about my first connection with him in 1997. It’s in a post on “Mark Driscoll’s Culture of Contempt.” If nothing changes, nothing changes …
https://futuristguy.wordpress.com/2015/01/08/capstone-2-7-mark-driscolls-culture-of-contempt/
Lydia wrote:
Good Lord, you brought back a bad memory of another off-track era in church history. I remember when local young folks were carrying Blue Like Jazz all over town, foaming at the mouth over new-found error. Miller was a big deal back then, along with Brian McLaren and Rob Bell (whew! what a crew). Yep, Driscoll was in the emergent movement, before he became resurgent, and then submergent … until the unrepentant potty-mouth surfaced again, re-invented as a Charismatic Calvinist (or whatever he calls himself now). American “Christians” are so gullible, they will fall for anything. We desperately need a new measure of discernment in the church!
@ LT:
Sadly, such lack of openness and transparency is exactly what to expect if and when HP is inspected properly. It tends to go with the territory.
LT wrote:
I think it would be massively annoying to realize all your sermons for a time period are an attempt to sell the pastors book (that love works sermon on andys fateful apology day)
refugee wrote:
I feel the same – you have to distinguish betweeen the well meaning blind, the people who made a bad decision and regret it, and the true narcissist or sociopath, who will never care.
LT wrote:
This is exactly why I’ve lobbied here at TWW on more than one occasion to state that the 501(c)(3) laws need to be drastically overhauled so that religious non-profits have to follow the same transparency rules that non-religious entities must abide by.
Those who are legit will survive and thrive, but the grifters probably won’t
@ LT:
It seems like there is no such thing as proper ethics classes/standards for ministers in some seminaries/congregations.
Muff Potter wrote:
I cannot think of any good reason why they shouldn’t follow the same rules.
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
Funny you should mention that, considering an article in the The (Columbia, SC) State newspaper today. http://www.thestate.com/living/religion/article201022489.html It appears that Perry Noble is returning to Anderson, SC to preach on Easter weekend at a local event center, as part of his new Second Chance Church.
Jarrett Edwards wrote:
There’s just something very irreverent about that.
An Attorney wrote:
I have begun to think of the church issues as being similar to domestic violence relationships – the core problems with entitlement, power, and control with the various areas in which a person can exert power and control. I have personal friends whose pastor was abusive – using spiritual, verbal and financial means.
dee wrote:
What if the parents decided that these churches weren’t safe for their kids and took their money and kids elsewhere?
Saw this on the news tonight:
https://www.newschannel5.com/news/well-known-pastor-charged-with-sexual-assault-on-young-girls
@ NJ:
lucius malfoy…. i haven’t gotten around to reading the books (although I know i’m missing out) but have certainly reveled in the films many times.
i love how lucius is portrayed… love how his voice is so quiet and menacing, like he’s suppressing so much (of what, i’m not sure). and how by & by he just crumbles under the weight of it all.
in our parody, who is the lucius character here? surely one of them must be feeling the weight of the pressure from all the compromise (to put it mildly).
or not…?
Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:
Sweet Jesus, please intervene and stop the horror!
@ Mercy:
Lot et al fled his city because God was not there. God had already left, and there were none faithful remaining.
Perhaps God has fled the ministry of some of these people; perhaps God is already absent so the faithful remnant, if there are any, need to do likewise.
ELASTIGIRL wrote:
Lucius Malfoy was, of course, splendidly portrayed by Jason Isaacs. There’s a great wee clip here on YouTube in which Isaacs explains in some detail where he got Malfoy’s voice from. The clip was recorded on someone’s phone in a sizeable room, so the sound isn’t perfect, but you’ll get the idea. But in short, Malfoy’s voice was based on two real people: one a thoroughly unpleasant bully, and the other an art critic who had effectively developed a fake posh accent.
JYJames wrote:
That is my view too.
@ Forrest:
The separation-of-church-and-state Thing is a classic example of unintended consequences, ISTM (and to others, I believe). Late medieval Europe had provided a chilling and centuries-long example of what can happen when religion and state power get into bed together. The earlier decades of the evolving United States themselves produced at least some organised religious persecution, since many different groups of settlers brought many different gods with them.
The First Amendment was an eminently sensible response to history, therefore. And I don’t mean that to damn it with faint praise. They’d never seen TV evangelists, didn’t have another two centuries of hindsight, and I really don’t know how I would have done any better in their shoes. But it’s next door to impossible to push back directly against a particular evil, without creating as many problems as one solves.
@ Max:
Yes. It was all the rage early part of this decade. Miller’s annoying stream of consciousness writing style captured the minds of many teens and 20 something’s. What strikes me is how fast these church fads hit peak, come and go and morph into something else. It’s extremely unhealthy but churches will try anything to keep the youth. It reeks of a lack of true substance.
I was thinking that as these scandals become more prolific and actually hurt attendance and the money flow the responses to them will change and I suspect not for the best. People are learning that doubling down works and one can ride it out. It actually pays to be corrupt. Nowadays, people who follow the rules and work hard are rarely rewarded. It’s all upside down.
Question:
Jules is in the unfortunate position of facing an SOL against her attacker so cannot press charges, but was there a mandatory reporter law in place at the time, and, if so, is there an SOL on failing to make the report?
Remnant wrote:
It is a misdemeanor to fail to report so almost certainly the SOL has passed even if it applied at the time. This article at https://www.texasbar.com/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Texas_Bar_Journal&Template=%2FCM%2FContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=11382 seems to state that everyone became a mandatory reporter in Texas in 1971. In addition the clergy-penitent relationship (or the attorney-client relationship) does not nullify the reporting requirement.
Lydia wrote:
You’ve reminded me of an old song. Perhaps you remember the group Truth and their song “Living Life Upside Down.” The watchblogs continue to sing “Living Church Upside Down.” Truth has been diluted, what was wrong is now right, that which appeals to the flesh has replaced spiritual life in our churches. Come Lord Jesus.
I really do not respond to this stuff. I have been following this every day. I am from Memphis Tennessee and I cannot believe they keep people like that in the church’s. My daughter tried to get a job at the day care center in another Meghan church in Memphis. She was not hired because she had been in jail here in Memphis. For stupid stuff. Now your telling me they hire people with this background at Highpoint and they are still on staff. There has to be a problem. We also have been in contact with people who went there and are still members there….. all they talked about were other people. How bad they were and how good they were….it is really sad. They represent Highpoint Church.!!!!!’ Love works That’s a place they call love works!!!!???????
Max wrote:
1 Cor.12:10 The Holy Spirit gives discernment to particular Christians as a gift to the whole Church. (Free, no tickets, no tithe, no showmanship, no popularity contest.)
However, is the Holy Spirit allowed in the local church? Is the endowed Christian using their gift? Do the Christians around them acknowledge and receive the gift?
Three “ifs” to get there, to have discernment in a church and the lives of Christians. I don’t think God is the problem. (Some have mentioned, there are the “refusers”, quenching the Spirit, extinguishing the gift, chasing away faithful Christians. Rev. 3:20 He stands at the door knocking.)
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Ha! I love that.
JYJames wrote:
Only if He sits quietly on the back pew – they don’t want Him stirring anything up! The local churches in my area are very religious, but spiritually destitute. I hope it’s better where you live.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
He also plays Tavington, the villain in Mel Gibson’s The Patriot. That was a excellent performance as well
JYJames wrote:
As time marchers on those with true discernment are walking away from man made churches. They are being called out. They know that they do not belong in a false system.
Some of us here have a gut feeling that this is what’s going to happen next:
1) They will conclude their investigation and let Andy go from his position because there’s too much outside pressure that they need to go away.
2) They will give Andy 1-3 years severance pay because they can’t let the Comp theology model fall apart by putting Andy’s wife Amanda in a position where she has to become the breadwinner. That would make too many people question the unquestionable Comp theology.
3) 1-3 years later Andy will resurface to start a new church for people that need second chances. Andy will focus his preaching on grace and mercy and how everyone is a dirty sinner.
Now watch the script play out like a movie in front of us.
Thanks, Erp!
We do need to walk away from the wolves in the pulpit. But the existence of wolves in the church doesn’t eliminate the existence of good people in ministry.
Did Jesus say that every brick and mortar church was evil? Of course not. Instead Jesus was in the habit of teaching at the brick and mortar churches of His time. Let’s not allow the accuser of the brethren to put the “bad” label on something that God has ordained for benefiting people.
There are good churches out there—the problem is not the existence of churches but how the wolves keep trying to infiltrate them.
Max wrote:
Not to be irreverent but LOL, ROFL. Can’t imagine the Holy Spirit quietly sitting in the back pew. Where is that in the Bible? Back pew, quiet, hmph… just can’t imagine it. Gee willikers…that would be a stretch, but really, won’t happen. HS takes a back pew to no one, and He is never silenced. The rocks cry out.
Mercy wrote:
ox·y·mo·ron if there ever was one. Since when did man make the Church?
Mercy wrote:
Like oil and water don’t mix. The real deal is moving on.
JYJames wrote:
Amen and Amen! The organized church has such a shallow view of the power of the Godhead. Most could “do church” just fine without the presence of the The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Why do we need those guys when we are getting along just fine without them? What they really mean is that they are getting “alone” just fine.
Max wrote:
Goes both ways. Why does the Godhead – Father, Son, and Holy Spirit – need a man’s or a woman’s ego?
First step to Christ, leave one’s ego [the appetite to satisfy self by crushing others – i.e., Savage] at the Cross, and then walk forward guided by none other than God’s own Holy Spirit (with one’s human ego in submission – to God, not to any other person. [Beware of the Bait-and-Switch-Preachers that hook a believer into submission to THEM, the preacher person – again the appetite to satisfy preacher-self by crushing the faith-seeking others. A lot of that snakeoil religion going on nowadays]).
JYJames wrote:
Which amounts to the Bible Gymnastics or more currently, Half Pipe or Trick Skiing, that Dee is writing about in this post. Fancy footwork rather than straight forward.
Ricco wrote:
Tavington was based on an actual historical figure; a British colonel with a reputation for brutality:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banastre_Tarleton
(Though the brutality was exaggerated in fictionalization — “Print the Legend”.)
dee wrote:
The First Church of No Consequences…for pastors
The latter part is in the fine print.
Lydia wrote:
Wow, do they have to buy all the pastors books too? Do they have to shop at the company store?
Muff Potter wrote:
That is an entirelt good observation. Although I don’t know it to be true yet in this case, I have run across my share of folks with bad intent where they provoked something that left me unraveled and they were entirely unperturbed. Projection tells me they would not sleep at night for what they did but experience tells me otherwise.
Lydia wrote:
Sweet dreams are made of this
Who am I to disagree?
I travel the world
And the seven seas,
Everybody’s looking for something.
Some of them want to use you
Some of them want to get used by you
Some of them want to abuse you
Some of them want to be abused.
— Eurythmics 1983 —
JYJames wrote:
Just look around…. are any of these of God?
JYJames wrote:
There is no room made for The Church in a man made church. The two are very different.
The problem is the wolves in the church—NOTthe good people who just want to gather to worship God on Sunday mornings. What’s wrong with that?
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Yin and yang of history, makes me glad we don’t live a thousand years else we’d be saying “here we go again”.
Thersites wrote:
That just reminds me, I had one professor who gave us her book for free because she didn’t think it was right to require us to purchase it…and another who made us buy his not even published, properly bound bookish thing. Ethics.
But yes, they are probably required to buy copies of all pastors books, and sell them to friends, assign them to bible study’s, etc.. Meanwhile, they are probably written on the churches time. Anything to make a buck.
@ Forrest:
OK. So how do Christians connect?
JYJames wrote:
From the very beginning, there has always been the Church within the church. In my 60+ years of church life, I have only connected with a handful of the Church. I’ve gathered with a lot of religious folks, but few who were spiritual. I’ve fellowshipped over chicken dinners with a multitude of church members, but encountered only genuine fellowship with a small number of the Body of Christ. In the midst of the religious noise, the still small voice connected us – we were kindred spirits drawn together by the Holy Spirit. While it may be tougher to find the genuine among the counterfeit, praise God for the genuine!
JYJames wrote:
With the help of the Holy Spirit.
Max wrote:
I can confirm that from my own ecperience too.
Lea wrote:
Interesting comparison. I was also thinking of a comparison with college professors. It seems one at our local university preys on Asian students as they are much more likely to keep it secret due to shame practiced by their particular culture. When a friend reported it we tried to get her friend, the young woman to report it but to no effect. She would not even divulge the professors name for fear someone would follow up and her name and reputation back home would be ruined.
Churches are not unique but they certainly hold the ingredients of abusive systems, a powerful clique with a self satisfaction that all they do is noble and general unquestioning acceptance of it by the insignificant serfs in their realm.
Forrest wrote:
They are connecting here.
@ Muff Potter:
My era. @ brad/futuristguy:
Rewrite history. Delete info, tear down statues, rewrite it all.
Lydia wrote:
New group takes over, repeat cycle
I just had a thought. I wonder if Conlee and Savage knew or figured Cotton would come clean and step down, which is why Conlee abused that 21 day social media fast. Keep their people from seeing it.
Thought I doubt in this day and age anybody would actually take that kind of challenge seriously.
Autocorrected to “abused”, but kinda funny!
ishy wrote:
And it still works 🙂
Thersites wrote:
Just like the French Revolution:
The Dantonists Denounce and behead all the Hebertists,
The Jacobins Denounce and behead all the Dantonists,
The Thermidorians Denounce and behead all the Jacobins…
Off topic:
I’ve been visiting here for a few months now and just wanted to say how much I appreciate the love the wonderful ladies here have poured out through this ministry. You guys are the best! It’s been helping me heal from an entanglement of family and church abuse I went through as a kid and again as a young adult. Much love back to you and everyone here.
I pray you trigger a reformation of churchianity that will make it more like Jesus would have it: accepting and empathetic, a place for victims and not their abusers, a place of love that drives out judgment and fear rather than a place of judgment that drives out love and hope. That is desparately needed.
Max wrote:
They certainly don’t want Him leading anyone into the Truth… or Judgment or Conviction…
Kari wrote:
The way things are going with some folk, this seems fairly clear. Actions speak, like some are headed in the other direction, away from Truth.
dee wrote:
I got about halfway through the video. Lots of style but I give him an F for substance. They still firmly believe they have the right and duty to “discipline” “covenant members”. If they really thought they sinned so badly against the pewpeons, they would have all resigned without severance pay. Then he gets to the part where he asks anyone to come to them IF they might have sinned against them, even though it might be scary. Why can’t they go to the people they hurt personally? They can’t remember who they are?!
Dave A A wrote:
This is what all pastors of the Acts 29 realm request. What is the point if these pastors have no clue they have sinned against someone? They are hardened to the still small voice it seems.
Ricco wrote:
And, of course, Georgy Zhukov in the recent film The Death of Stalin.
(Works best in a Yorkshire accent, which is what Isaacs gave his character.)
Bridget wrote:
If they think they did right, they will only be defensive.
Bridget wrote:
They had to “dig around, and look internally” to find cases where they’d “disciplined” less lovingly or necessarily than they ought. Did they then at least reach out to those on whom they had written documentation?
Many who’ve had “discipline” committed against them are no longer Villagers. They still may not have heard the apology. Many who have heard it will still be reluctant to reach out to elders as requested. What if they’re told, “Well, in YOUR case our discipline WAS loving and necessary.” It’s not worth the risk. So very little of elders’ time will have been wasted apologizing on a case by case basis.
IIRC SGM did something similar for their AOR investigation.
@ Dave A A:
They could always return to selling indulgences.
@ Dave A A:
Matt Chandler apology on Facebook
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
so, when was this apology made? it was posted to facebook in November of 2017. was it around that time? or is it from a long time ago?
(what a sick place…. such a syrupy emphasis on graciously & lovingly while at the same time destroying people by degrees. ‘please forgive us for not being tender in our destroying of people’)
@ JYJames:
Perfect solution! What they absolutely won’t do is declare themselves disqualified. Careers are at stake.
“Will you come in and let us own that? And I know that might sound like a terrifying proposition to you…”
Well, ya think? They want those they’ve sinned against to make an appointment and go to their offices– likely where the discipline was committed in the first place. And they’re career persuaders. They’d have me walking out with a lighter wallet and a used car. If they’d sinned against me I’d send them an email, and only accept a WRITTEN apology.
elastigirl wrote:
I don’t know. The backdrop seems different from the 2015 apology, but all I have so far is audio on YouTube. Did they go right on with abusive discipline after apologizing to Karen Hinkley, or is this apology a follow-up to that?
Max wrote:
This sums up the history of evangelicalism in the U.S. as far as I can see. Just call yourself ‘pastor’, and the sky’s the limit!
Thersites wrote:
It almost starts to look like we live in a fallen world or something…
Dave A A wrote:
Within the past month, the pastor at one of my former churches sent a message via my husband that he and his wife wanted to “have lunch” with us. Husband was told to entice me. Anyway, I declined the invitation, and husband told the pastor he should contact me directly. Pastor said that he wanted to apologize to me. I said that he could still do that (via email or phone).
I doubt that the pastor was being totally truthful about his intentions, and now his employment with the church has been abruptly ended. I figure if he really wanted to apologize, he would make it a priority. I don’t think I’ll be hearing from him again.
People don’t need permission to own their sins, and in order to properly apologize, they need to be able to understand the other person’s hurt and needs.
Dave A A wrote:
Why does the one who is harmed have to go as a lone individual to the group of leaders and on their turf? If Chandler were to go as a lone individual to someone who has been harmed it would say something about his sincerity. If he were to go as an individual to a group of people harmed it would say something about courage. In the meantime my suspicion remains that he has neither sincerity nor courage. We set the bar too low for these preachers.
roebuck wrote:
Or to go with the cycle meme, a falling world.
Thersites wrote:
But God’s holy standard is still the same for them. Going to be a rough Judgment Day for some of these guys.
Thersites wrote:
Because it is still about the leaders’ control and authority. The leaders still do not understand their place in God’s kingdom.
Dave A A wrote:
Yep. And they usually ALWAYS demand in person meetings.
Dave A A wrote:
Yep. They did. The AOR people were present as well, but it doesn’t say much for the leaders.
@ Dave A A:
haven’t a clue. although reason tells me the leaders are there because it fits their set of beliefs, values, likes and dislikes. authority and power over people is part of that. all in all, seems like a big ship to turn around.
seems so unlikely they would truly be able to change without a major overhaul. like those promised heads rolling, which doesn’t seem to have happened.
someone who believes they are entitled to have authority & power over people isn’t about to change easily.
@ elastigirl:
He says they believe their doctrine is ok, just their practice needs work. I say they teach doctrines of demons, which they call covenant membership and church discipline. Until they drop these, which won’t happen, all the tweaking in the world won’t prevent further abuses.
@ Bridget:
Thersites wrote: “Why does the one who is harmed have to go as a lone individual to the group of leaders and on their turf?”
Bridget wrote: “Because it is still about the leaders’ control and authority. The leaders still do not understand their place in God’s kingdom.”
+++++++++++++++++
i remember when the dot com bubble burst, our investment manager was making the rounds, visiting all his clients to explain how he would approach things. he knew they were smarting, and afraid. he knew he was in danger of losing his clients (or their money).
i would assume matt chandler and his staff aren’t all that in touch with what their church members are feeling. or they don’t care. and don’t seem to be feeling too much danger of losing people (at least those who were hurt don’t seem to be a great loss… collateral damage).
Bridget wrote:
They can use their faster wit, winning personality, and sales training more effectively.
Bridget wrote:
So they can attempt to control, manipulate, and intimidate you into submission.
elastigirl wrote:
Sociopaths are often obsessively Polite.
Kari wrote:
The Holy Spirit was telling you to steer clear, and you listened!
I forgive the crazy, manipulative people in my life, but that doesn’t mean I trust them. Not one teeny little bit!! We are enjoined to sincerely love every person, but some people are better loved from a distance. Jesus never asks us to subject ourselves to other people’s narcissistic, abusive nonsense…not if we can reasonably avoid it!
Max wrote:
Eggzackly!!
Dave A A wrote:
For my money, Limited Atonement and Double Predestination are the original Doctrines of Demons. Everything else flows from these two.
It still dumbfounds me that some of the sweetest people I know swallow this evil swill. I cannot fathom this. How can they genuinely love God and their neighbor — as they certainly seem to, far better than I do — and yet believe that their God is a sadistic monster and that their neighbor is arbitrarily condemned to eternal torment just to give glory to Sadistic Monster Demon God??
I do not get it.
Dave A A wrote:
My friends are going to think that I started using Dave AA as a pseudonym I’ve said this so many times.
And they would be right to think that because that is what happens. It did to me and it did to my friend. Not everyone who was hurt got an apology.
Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:
Actually hyper Calvinism has a long history in the baptist movement. Just take a look at the primitive baptist churches. Hypercalvinist to the core. They (predecessors of the SBC) split with them over the concept of missions, but they never overcame the tension their core theology.
That is in part why I am an Anabaptist.
J.M.
Dave A A wrote:
For some of these guys, I fear they are already printing nametags for them in Hell.
J.M.
Judas Maccabeus wrote:
“In ‘that day’ many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we preach in your name and do many great things in your name?’ Then I shall tell them plainly, ‘I have never known you. Go away from me, you have worked on the side of evil!’” (Matthew 7)
@ Judas Maccabeus:
Ironically, the Civil War took care of some of it.
Judas Maccabeus wrote:
I know little about the Primitive Baptists, except that they like to sing shapenote hymns. IMHO that covers a multitude of sins.
Kari wrote:
When I was a pastor, I sinned against a man by siding with the senior pastor against him, although I knew the senior pastor was in the wrong. Years later, when I finally got around to apologizing, it was through email. He could have said, “Where were you when I needed you–go print yourself a name tag in hell, Bub,” but he forgave me. I still consider myself disqualified from ministry, however.
Thersites wrote:
He could rent out a facility and email everyone he thinks they might have disciplined with several meeting time options, and go and listen to them.
Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:
Or they might be condemned as well and not know it, due to evanescent grace.
Lance wrote:
Was that at the village?
Lydia wrote:
Yes, instead of the regular+primitive vs missionary division in the south, you had the pro vs. anti slavery division taking center stage. Some of those fault lines that derive from the Northern vs. Southern division still exists. Some of the old strong Calvinism of primitive baptist movement seems to be increasingly reflected in the current SBC.
J. M.
(In some ways I enjoy it, because I love the four part acapella of the primitive baptists, but their theology, no thanks)
A little over a year ago, the Village fired one of their pastors who had sinned a mysterious sin against another adult. Any time I hear of these mysterious sins nowadays I assume it’s sexting or groping. But wouldn’t it be shocking if the sin were abusive Church discipline?
Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:
Google them once. Interesting group, they are among the strongest calvinists you will ever meet, and honest about it, they do not try to hide it as some do.
As to the music, well, we sing acapella using shape notes too, but in their form the tenor normally has the melody, for the rest of us it is the sopranos..
J.M.
Dave A A wrote:
I commend you. Doing the right thing is hard. Some of these guys do not seem to have any evidence of the voice of the Holy Spirit speaking into their life, and hence could be unregenerate. The fact that you felt the need to apologize speaks for the fact that He really is working. You may not be as disqualified as you think, at least not at some point in the future.
J.M.
Dave A A wrote:
In their form of church government could one pastor be doing discipline alone, without the concurrence of others? If so, i would find that shocking, and RUN.
J.M.
Judas Maccabeus wrote:
Absolutely! Or the others involved are simply their best bud lacky elders who wouldn’t dream of thinking or asking questions outside of the box. And, actually, conformity to the teachings and doctrines they believe leaves little room for the HS to speak truth.
Dave A A wrote:
It’s encouraging that you apologized to the man. My current pastor apologizes quickly and frequently which helps those of us who have been under pastors who would not do that.
The former pastor at my husband’s church had other pastors against me as well; they seem to think they are still entitled to be pastors.
The fact that you felt the need to apologize speaks for the fact that He really is working.
YES. This.
Judas Maccabeus wrote:
Isn’t that called “The Enforcer”?
Dave A A wrote:
Too many would think you are hyperbolic but I think it a reasonable action. Unfortunately if it ever did happen I fear there would be a slick media production of it made into an ad for “look at me, see how humble I am”. Just do what is right and if those who you meet with later give you accolades, great but it is beside the point. Unfortunately too many leaders are motivated by status, moving up in the hierarchy, and thus they toot their own horn and it is embarrassing.
Dave A A wrote:
Which leads to more and more extreme and desperate attempts to PROVE to themselves that they are Truly Elect. Usually manifesting in some form of Virtue Signalling (“SEE? SEE? SEE?”), from getting rich to Righteous Moral Fury to Perfectly-Parsed Correct Theology. With all the rest of us as collateral damage, red shirts in the do-it-yourself Reality Show of I Am One Of The Elect.
Dave A A wrote:
Their Ideology is Pure.
Sounds similar to “This Time We Will Achieve True Communism!”
Dave A A wrote:
Question, Village Church is big on discipline, do they keep secret the sin of those they discipline and force out? If so then at least they would be consistent, if not and they treat the non pastors different it would be yet another condemnation of their system.
Judas Maccabeus wrote:
Likely not. I have heard of cases in other institutions where one pastor does extensive counseling with someone, and then pulls it into church discipline with other pastors when the person’s progress is disappointing.
Thersites wrote:
I imaginge they do, in general. Especially after bad publicity from Karen Hinkley when they emailed the whole membership.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
If we just try harder to be caring, we’ll get it right next time. The other times were aberrations.
@ Dave A A:
Yes, it was at TVC. My experience was not with Matt Chandler and was unrelated to anything to do with the apology from stage. They had done something else wrong, they eventually admitted they were wrong, but somehow I spent a large portion of the meeting on the defensive for ridiculous stuff. As one example, I was questioned/criticized about why I didn’t speak up sooner and/or more forcefully about their wrongful actions.
This fits the narrative of “we’re all sinners. Look, you’re a sinner, too. You didn’t speak up as soon as you should have about what we were doing wrong. So, we all screw up. Go back to doing what we say now and not questioning because we are in charge here. Besides, if you want to complain, who are you going to complain to, one of our hand-picked elder board members?”
My friend’s non-apology was related to the discipline/abuse he was talking about in that sermon you heard.
@ Lance:
I hope I’m not prying too much, but was your friend’s discipline/abuse after June 2015? (When they apologized to Karen Hinkley) What was their reason, in general?
Personally, I was in a 9Marks and formerly Acts29 church. Over time, I brought concerns about 2 issues to the pastors, graciously and lovingly in the first case. In the second I was a bit miffed and not so gracious. Later, when they disciplined someone who’d already left the church and were getting ready for an excommunication ceremony, I emailed the pastors expressing my disagreement. There was very little time. My daughter suggested I make it short and sweet and simply point out the insanity of kicking out someone who was already out. I could not seem to help myself and added things from the Bible and my understanding of them. This was, of course, a serious error and I should have listened to my daughter. I got a reply from the head pastor correcting all the things I brought up from the Bible– but he also threw in how I’d been a troublemaker before on issue 1 when I’d graciously and lovingly brought my concerns. My family all left the church after that.
I’m sorry that happened to you, but thankful there are people who will stand up whatever the consequences.
The general topic was the same as in the Hinkley matter – they gave advice that put a woman in a very bad spot. When there was some push-back by her and her friends, the friends who tried to step in got treated much as you were – told why they were wrong, told that they were troublemakers, and shown the door. The woman got to hear all about what her faults were in the situation. Everyone who actually knew the couple in day-to-day life knew who the problem was, and it wasn’t her.
This situation would have been ongoing while the blow-up with Karen Hinkley happened and continued for a number of months following the on-stage apology.
Someone said it above, the only thing that is going to change the culture there is when enough people leave that they are forced to face what they are doing. There are many bodies under the TVC bus.
@ Lance:
Seems like that scenario is the most common. Here in Idaho, an excommunication email from the Christ Church elders in Moscow got published. The woman was guilty of turning to outside counseling help.
Supposedly, church discipline is needed to keep an adulterous guy from bringing his mistress to church with him in front of his wife and kids. But I’ve never heard of this actually happening.
@ Dave A A:
“I have heard of cases in other institutions where one pastor does extensive counseling with someone, and then pulls it into church discipline with other pastors when the person’s progress is disappointing.”
+++++++++++++++++
yuck — who needs any of this?? this extensive counseling… i bet it was over sin inventions. all make-believe. fleshes out the pastor’s job description, though.
who needs this?!
(well, i think these things do fulfill needs some people have. the need for attention, for approval; for ‘measurable progress’ & success in finding God with lists of do’s and don’ts, shoulds and shouldn’ts; the need for flagellation to sooth deep guilt and self-hatred… very sad)
@ elastigirl:
Here’s the Moscow discipline letter, in case you haven’t seen it
https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2018/01/25/breaking-leaders-at-doug-wilsons-christ-church-put-woman-in-abusive-marriage-under-church-discipline/
Beginning with “I’ve spent hundreds of hours with you, praying for you, giving you advice…”
And later “Through all this you have refused to meet with us to help you resolve these issues. Instead, you have gone to others…”
@ Dave A A:
unbelievable. sick.
i wish i could undo that last paragraph i wrote about controlling counseling meeting some needs in some people. while i think it can be true, i think more often then not these kinds of churches do extra well at controlling how people think (invented sins, the need for pastors to counsel them, the inability to trust their own gut feelings,…)
until people like Gen reach their limit.
it is amazingly easy to create a thought-controlling environment in church, and amazingly easy for intelligent & highly-educated individuals succumb to it.
every church i’ve been involved in qualifies. only one of them was abusive. but even in the others — even though they weren’t abusive, i found it changed me in ways i didn’t like.
it wasn’t until i extricated myself completely, with time to detox, that i could see the depth of it.
oh, gawd, the freedom is awesome….
and good grief God is just as available out here. of course God is.
@ Dave A A:
Wow. That letter is infuriating. My wife and I were counseled by Lawyer for a time, but we aren’t Christ Church members. The counseling was counterproductive and everything I have learned about that guy since makes me ill
Newspaper articles from the Memphis Commercial Appeal, may shed further light on the timeline and church connections:
August 12, 1999, page GC2
“On July 25 members of Germantown Baptist Church welcomed Andy Savage and Jeremi Payne to the ministry team. Savage will serve as single adult associate working with college students under the leadership of singles pastor Wes Richardson. Payne will be responsible for senior high girls, assisting senior high pastor Bill Christian.”
Metro Bible Study launched Jan. 2000, Savage was shuttling in worship leader Chris Tomlin from Houston (Tomlin was worship leader at Woodlands UMC, and later founded Austin Stone with Matt Carter of Woodlands Parkway Baptist a.k.a. Stonebridge)
February 12, 2000, page A10
METRO BIBLE STUDY SHUCKS TRADITION, PROCLAIMS NAKED TRUTH TO YOUTH
“Hundreds of young adults gathered at Germantown Baptist Church Monday night and got naked – that’s spiritually, now. Oklahoman Dave Edwards’s message – ‘How to Get Naked’ – was about getting closer to God, but the title was tailored for the 18- to 30-year-old target audience…Metro kicked off on Jan. 31, and…meets every Monday at 7:30 p.m. in the main auditorium at Germantown Baptist….Metro…is “geared toward the unchurched, the lost people, but it also helps Christ’s followers grow in their faith,” said volunteer Jessica Savage, 25…Jessica Savage’s brother Andy Savage, 24, is Metro’s producer. He says the younger generation’s problems “are so deep that, week in and week out, they need to hear the message and the music in an authentic way, and that will make an impact.” As you walk in the auditorium, you’ll see people having fun; you’ll hear music by Pearl Jam and U2 and Passion praise music, and watch blockbuster movie clips. The stage looks like you’re attending a grunge concert with the musicians on stage wearing worn jeans and T-shirts. The band, led by Texan Chris Tomlin, 27, plays a variety of music from classic rock to country to blues.”
Germantown Baptist Church was spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on Savage’s ‘Bible studies,’ music was now led by Todd Agnew of Woodlands Parkway Baptist (Stonebridge) who was being flown in weekly from Texas:
February 17, 2001, page A12
YOUNG ADULTS DRAWN TO HIP, HIGH-TECH METRO BIBLE STUDY
“the Monday night Metro Bible Study started a year ago at Germantown Baptist Church…’Next to Beale Street on a Saturday night, it’s the largest gathering of young adults in town,” boasted Germantown Baptist youth minister Andy Savage, 25. ‘It’s the place to be to meet people.’ The Bible Study is a Christian rock concert wrapped around a Bible message with a dash of comedy thrown in about being young and single…Fearing they wouldn’t be able to attract a crowd…organizers hired Todd Agnew…Agnew, a musician, is on the staff of Woodlands Parkway Baptist Church in The Woodlands, Texas, a Houston suburb…’Most churches can put on a one-time event that is high caliber, but we wanted one in which every week was top quality. When we asked ourselves who’s the best in the country, our answer was Todd Agnew…,’ said Savage. He acknowledged getting the best comes at a high price. The church spends just under $200,000 a year to put on the weekly event.”
October 25, 2001, page GC2
INTEREST MEETING SET FOR CARPENTER’S CHURCH
“A new church is coming to the Collierville and Germantown area. The Carpenter’s Church will be planted and nurtured by its new pastor, Chris Conlee, and Germantown Baptist Church…He spent the last two years as pastor of Biblical maturity at Far Hills Baptist Church in Dayton, Ohio. Conlee said the leadership at Germantown Baptist Church is committed to church planting missions and credits them with providing the means to develop and grow this new church. He said they are letting him teach classes to allow church members to become familiar with his teachings and style. ‘We will recruit a core group of members for the new church from the membership at Germantown Baptist,’ Conlee said. He said the new church members would meet at Germantown Baptist while they search for land to build a church of their own…The Carpenter’s Church’s associate pastor, Mark Murdoch, is moving to Memphis from Atlanta on Nov. 5 and also will teach at Germantown Baptist…On Nov. 11 at 7:30 p.m., the first ‘information and interest’ meeting for The Carpenter’s Church will be held in room Peace 101 at Germantown Baptist Church, 9450 Poplar. A second meeting is scheduled for Dec. 9. Those interested in learning more about the new church are welcome. For more information, E-mail Conlee at Chrisc@germantownbaptist.org, or call the church office, 756-9450.”
@ Jerome:
“[Jeremi] Payne will be responsible for senior high girls, assisting senior high pastor Bill Christian.”
+++++++++++++++++
all these men…. responsible for high school girls.
gol’, that smells bad.
@ Jerome:
“[Andy Savage] says the younger generation’s problems “are so deep that, week in and week out, they need to hear the message and the music in an authentic way, and that will make an impact.””
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
their problems are so deep? and the solution is uniquely found at Metro?
omg, now pastors are inventing problems. problems only they can solve.
somehow i don’t think the problems these young people faced are any more ‘deep’ & complicated than those of similar-aged people throughout history.
somehow i don’t think Andy Savage’s Metro “solution” is any more revolutionary than salisbury steak, macaroni & cheese, pekid green beans, & chocolate brownie pudding in a foil TV dinner tray.
(but i’m sure these things are not the point you were getting at, Jerome)
Jeremi Leigh Payne, I think that was a gal, especially since she wasn’t given a ministerial title like Andy was. Hard to tell sometimes, isn’t it, with names such as Paige Patterson?
Jerome wrote:
So, did Agnew know about the “organic sexual experience.” He was from Savage’s old church being flown to his new church once a week.
@ Jerome:
ah, yes. same work as the man, minimizing title — the universal sign of a christian woman. just as ubiquitous as the white silhouette in an A-line skirt on bathroom doors.
@ elastigirl:
More like, “Gall, that smells bad!” They have no shame.
Jerome wrote:
Hip? High-tech? And TRENDY?
Like Rowan & Martin’s Laugh-In in the mid-Sixties? (“GROOVY, MAN!”)
“Nothing gets old-fashioned faster than Over-Relevance.”
— My old D&D Dungeonmaster, in a post-game recreational-thinking session
Dave A A wrote:
doubleplusgoodthink, comrade!
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
When I was in my late teens, back during the late ’60s, a “hip, cool” minister tried to reach out to us kids via a local Christian coffee house. His “relevance” was cringe-worthy. Every time he said “groovy,” we groaned.
He was kinda cute, though.
Ricco wrote:
Do you suppose he makes members sign a waiver of confidentiality so he can share tidbits with Wilson and other elders?
@ Dave A A:
I could look back in my files and see if I still have it. These places usually have some sort of clause that allows the pastor to be told for some stupid reason.
I read a story about Lawyer where a husband recorded a wife’s phone calls without her knowledge and brought them into counseling and Lawyer used them to have her disciplined.
Yuck, yuck, yuck
Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:
“And Tommy ain’t a bloody fool — you bet that Tommy Sees!”
Two examples I’ve come across:
1) An online joke diagram of “Youth Pastor Beard Styles”. Specifically, the “Soul Patch”, which indicates “Young & Hip”. The soul-patched face in the diagram was balding, grey, and wrinkled with sagging jowls.
2) An early Doonesbury strip where a narc is working undercover; he’s dressed a little bit off, but it’s his speech balloons — he’s talking entirely in 1950’s BEATNIK slang — in 1970!
“Hiya, Daddy-O! What’s it like being a Dope Field in this town?”
“Not bad. What’s it like being a DEA Agent?”
elastigirl wrote:
And set in front of Gordon Ramsey, passed off as new and revolutionary five-star cuisine.
(I’ve been watching too many Kitchen Nightmares clips on YouTube…)
LT wrote:
Yes, you are correct, and not only that, his wife STILL TO THIS DAY in on stage leading on the worship team. How much access does Tim have to young girls who might want to sing back up etc just by virtue of being a highly involved volunteer and married to someone so visible?
Ricco wrote:
I did a search for that one, and couldn’t find it, but a lot of other tangled webs of deceit come up.