“I am asking SGC to support their recent claim that I am making “false accusation”, “mischaracterizing” and communicating things that “are not true and have never been true”, and instead show true care for the victims by finally dealing transparently with these concerns, through taking one specific step:
Allowing GRACE, an Christian organization whose expertise is sexual assault and institutional dynamics, to do a thorough independent investigation of the organization’s historical and current handling of abuse complaints, which will be released to the public.”
Rachael Denhollander’s Facebook Photo
Can there by any doubt that God’s sovereignty is on full display in the circumstances involving Rachael Denhollander? As we shared in our previous post, she was the first of Larry Nassar’s victims to file a police report against him, which she did on August 29, 2016.
Since that time, Nassar’s victims have gradually come forward. At last count, the number was well over 260. Earlier today, Nassar appeared in court for the third and final time. According to an article in the New York Times, Nassar was sentenced to an additional 40 to 125 years. This is on top of the sentence of 60 years for a federal conviction related to child pornography and a sentence in Ingham County of 40 to 175 years. While we are deeply saddened for what these victims experienced under the guise of ‘medical treatments’, we are grateful that the man who sexually abused them will be confined in prison for the rest of his life.
In our previous post, we concurred with Rachael Denhollander’s husband, who believes his wife is a real live superhero. We also shared that Rachael had been interviewed by Morgan Lee of Christianity Today, who inquired about one of Rachael’s remarks in her impact statement which she read in court. It is included below.
“My advocacy for sexual assault victims … cost me my church.”
How can this be? Isn’t ‘the church’ supposed to be the place where victims of all kinds can seek shelter and support?
As it turns out, the Denhollander’s pastor is a very good friend of C.J. Mahaney. Although the Denhollanders were not attending a ‘Sovereign Grace Church’, the elders of their church are supportive of this network of churches and its founder, C.J. Mahaney. In fact, the lead pastor has spoken at Mahaney’s Louisville church plant twice (in 2014 and 2016) and Mahaney has spoken at the Denhollander’s (former) church in the Spring of 2016.
A few months before Mahaney was a guest preacher at the Denhollander’s church, an article appeared in The Washingtonian about Mahaney and the church he pastored for 27 years. It was entitled: The Sex-Abuse Scandal that Devastated a Suburban Megachurch: Inside the Rise and Fall of Sovereign Grace Ministries (2/14/16). No doubt Rachael Denhollander had read this article along with other information as she investigated Mahaney and SGM, and she became terribly concerned. After sharing these concerns, the Denhollanders were told that this was not the church for them.
Getting back to the recent interview in Christianity Today, Rachael Denhollander made this profound statement:
The ultimate reality that I live with is that if my abuser had been Nathaniel Morales instead of Larry Nassar, if my enabler had been [an SGM pastor] instead of [MSU gymnastics coach] Kathie Klages, if the organization I was speaking out against was Sovereign Grace under the leadership of [Mahaney] instead of MSU under the leadership of Lou Anna Simon, I would not only not have evangelical support, I would be actively vilified and lied about by every single evangelical leader out there. The only reason I am able to have the support of these leaders now is because I am speaking out against an organization not within their community. Had I been so unfortunate so as to have been victimized by someone in their community, someone in the Sovereign Grace network, I would not only not have their support, I would be massively shunned. That’s the reality.
As you might imagine, these remarks were not well-received by leaders in Sovereign Grace Churches. They quickly posted the following response on their website. (see screen shot below)
Incredibly, Mark Prater claims the accusations are “not true and have never been true”. The link above (have never been true) takes you to an Open Letter sent to Sovereign Grace Churches in the wake of the dismissal of the civil lawsuit. Notice there is no mention of the lawsuit being dismissed on technical grounds (the statute of limitations had expired for most of the plaintiffs and two of the plaintiffs for whom the statute of limitations had not expired filed suit in the state of Maryland and not the Commonwealth of Virginia where they reside.
Here are excerpts from that Open Letter (see screen shots below).
Rachael Denhollander mulled over Mark Prater’s published statement and responded earlier today via Facebook. (see screen shots below)
Rachael’s Response via Facebook
On the same day that Rachael’s interview with Christianity Today (CT) was published, CT featured another online article entitled: Should Churches Handle Sexual Abuse Investigations Internally?
Here is an excerpt from that article:
Unfortunately, it is not uncommon for churches and religious organizations to try to handle sexual assault allegations internally. Bob Jones University, Sovereign Grace Ministries, the Association of Baptists for World Evangelism, and the Institute in Basic Life Principles have all come under fire in recent years for not adequately addressing sexual abuse within their communities. Some of these organizations have been accused of blaming the victims—even those who were children at the time of abuse—and pressuring them to forgive their abusers rather than report them.
Incredibly, SGM was named in two CT articles on the same day, and interestingly, both were written by women! We encourage you to read the sections in this article — The Problem of Bias and The Importance of Impartiality.
We believe Rachael’s recommendation of involving GRACE (a Christian organization founded and run by Boz Tchividjian) to investigate the organization’s current and historical handing of sex abuse claims is excellent! Her offer to head up the fundraising for such an investigation and to contribute personally is most admirable!
Who thinks Mark Prater and Sovereign Grace Churches will take her up on this offer?
first
This is an excellent post! Thanks for pulling this together and keeping us informed! God bless. You end with the question of their response to Rachel’s suggestion of engaging Boz’s group: GRACE.
Many churches and institutions should take up the suggestion to engage GRACE.
And always report to Law Enforcement criminal matters, even within the church.
Too excited to sleep! This is such fantastic news!
I had hoped she would persist in drawing attention to this abuse but I was blown away by how full of power & wisdom this response is!!
God is up to something here!!! Thankful for her willingness to go to bat for the victims after all she has been through!
SGM will “go to the mattresses” over this issue. They will never give in being as they have bet everything. But this publicity has got to be hurting them in the pocketbook. Keeping the pressure on them and their weasely fan club enablers will keep them on the defense. They sure cannot sue anybody for defamation and be put under oath!
What an answer to prayer!!! This girl just keeps using every avenue she is given to advocate for the abused and call for justice!!
Standing ovation to you Rachael!!
The heart of Jesus shines so bright in you!
This group has continued to be in my prayers over the years…. all of the victims who were marginalized and silenced!
This is how it’s done folks! Grace and truth!
Many have praised Rachael but what happens when she asks them not merely to be praising God when injustice outside the church is being called on…
Jesus brought out the wips for clearing out the temple and had some of his harsher words calling out abusive Spiritual leadership as vipers!!!
I’m so thankful for this incredible young woman!
I’m so thankful she is using her platform to make a difference for church sexual abuse victims!!
She has already been through enough! Most people would understand she took a break from such emotionally draining stuff!
If she decided to rest and didn’t want to take back up this cause that has already caused her shunning by her own church as well as them maligning her …. I’m blown away that while the gospel coalition and all these Christian groups are praising her and shining a spot light on her… she is instead taking that moment and using that spotlight to advocate yet again for the abused.
May God pour out His healing as we hold up all of this in prayer:
each person who has suffered abuse,
each organization complicit in covering it up,
every enabler,
every leader who has the opportunity to repent and have brokenness over what has transpired in the body of Christ.
We are His temple. Let’s keep it healthy!
May your Kingdom come and your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Rachael rocks!
In the words of Brent Dentwiler:
“No one has done more harm to the Body of Christ in our day than C.J. Mahaney and the men who have covered up for him. They have protected him, in part, because they are protecting themselves. If Mahaney goes down, they go down with him to varying degrees. How do you confess to the Christian public, “I was totally deceived by C.J. Mahaney.” Or in the case of SGM leaders, “I totally lied for C.J. Mahaney.”
Therefore, which of them, if any, are going to humble themselves, and acknowledge their foolishness and deceitfulness? Which of them will call for his removal from Together for the Gospel in April? Which of them will work for his removal from all ministry? Will fellow pastors, Bob Kauflin and Jeff Purswell call for his resignation as the senior pastor of Sovereign Grace Church of Louisville?
I fear none of the men mentioned above will take any of these righteous actions. If any do, I will be the first to applaud them in the name of the Lord! On the other hand, I am confident tens of thousands of ordinary saints will take a stand and call these men to account and appeal for their repentance.”
http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/rachael-denhollander-speaks-out-against-cj-mahaney-in-interv.html
What an excellent article! I do not doubt that SG and their supporters will dig in and continue to deny. If they really knew Jesus then their actions would have been very different. They are nothing more than a synagogue of satan.
Poised, polished, professional!
I think we should all be committing this to much prayer for the sake of each victim who has suffered further abuse by his/her church. I would love to see the lid blow on this and each slimy snake exposed. I’m not sure they will go along with Rachael’s offer but I do think people will be thinking twice about their churches in the future and not trusting them with their children.
Just brilliant! The thing they fear most, an educated woman, has found her voice & put them in their place. Excellent work Rachael, fantastic work the Deebs.
Well done !
#sgmneedsgrace
#cjneedsgrace
Beakerj wrote:
I’ll bet John Piper is working on a tweet to address this educated woman.
This is an incredible development and a very courageous move by Rachael. Now let’s see what TGC and Ted do as follow-up in light of this recent article: https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justin-taylor/incredible-testimony-former-gymnast-confronts-sexual-abuser-court/. Would TGC have posted it had they known Rachael’s connection with Mahaney? Now is the time for TGC and T4G to do what is right. Will they rise to the occasion, or will Taylor’s article silently disappear?
Beakerj wrote:
Yes and amen.
Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
The ball is in their court for sure!! SGM that has tried for years to ignore this and hoped it would one day blow over did so much covering up for C.J. The boys club runs deep. Once C.J. stepped out of being at the helm (or was he disposed) and the fall out from all the churches that left SGM that was a great opportunity to stop justifying the terrible cover ups of abuse over the years. It was a moment for repentance and unfortunately they dug in their heels and doubled down on extolling Mahaneys praises. He really did hand pick successors that would have his back and his stick together boys club mentality.
And they got way too much support from leaders in the broader evangelical community! Especially the Gospel Coalitions leadership.
It was a big mistake or miscalculation to call Rachael dishonest if they were hoping to simply wait this one out again! Denying what she said set her up for bringing the truth into the light to a much wider audience.
This will make the SGM defenders unable to bury this under a rug!
The ball is in the court of SGM and all C.J.s TG4 gospel coalition supporters. Will these male leaders only applaud her and pin up her story when she is calling out the world or will they finally stop enabling their own????
Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
“TGC and T4G” – not “Ted”
Rachael is in a unique position as a believer, an attorney, a woman of great courage, and tragically someone with first-hand knowledge of the issues; it seems to me like she stands holding the golden lariat of truth, and has begun to swing it around her head. The battle is the Lord’s, but she is His instrument. May she prosper in her task.
Jen C wrote:
The fact that she’s an athlete may be problematic for him and his ilk. And she is now an articulate lawyer, which may also be an issue for them. A woman, trained and talented, with brains and a voice to boot. Look out fellas who deem women should be silent sweet decorated muffins ready to be devoured, or scared squeaky little mice hiding fearfully in a corner.
Bookbolter wrote:
Yes, what an excellent response from this impressive woman in such a unique position! While Piper tweets about jellyfish, Rachael speaks truth and offers wisdom. It will be difficult and risky for any of the Fab 4 and their hangers-on to try to discredit her.
I think those were both excellent points where churches seem to think they are immune. Mark’s statement said he ‘believes’ CJ/et al. But why? Because he knows them. Because he likes them. Because he is BIASED towards them. (assuming he isn’t just straight up lying).
Even so, the bigger problem in these churches is that they have convinced themselves that what they are doing, covering up for abusers, forcing the abused to forgive, discouraging police reports, etc, is the ‘right’ thing. That is what they have never really addressed, except with lip service. That is what has to be fixed moving forward, or nothing will change and it will all just be PR quotes about sexual abuse being wrong that come only after the fact and along with a heavy dose of denial and shaming.
@ JYJames:
Or maybe, instead of being Aquaman http://matthewepierce.com/is-john-piper-aquaman/, Piper is actually the Head Prophet of Principled Calvinista Religion. Seriously you guys, this could be the muscular woman he has been warning about. A trained athlete woman accusing men about church things. This is John Piper’s personal hell, and don’t think he didn’t warn you.
Beakerj wrote:
Here Here.
What did she ask of her church, really, that they were unwilling to do? Refuse to offer public support, including guest preaching, to CJ? Why was that so impossible a thing to ask? What on earth sort of hold does this CJ person have on all these men, or are they just ultimately as bad as him? It is the strangest thing.
Jen C wrote:
Especially if the Falcon Heavy launch fails. SpaceX’s president / COO is a woman.
Beakerj wrote:
I think it has to bother them greatly that the people who continue to bring this chronic issue of SGM/SGC are women. In their world, women are definitely second class. We’re not permitted to teach or preach, and if one followed John Piper to the extreme, women wouldn’t be allowed into any position where we have authority over men.
And this, I think is at the root of the problem. That whole SGM/SGC, T4G, TGC, Founders, MacArthur, Calvinista grouping has a profoundly defective view of women, and it leads into minimizing child abuse. If you think women have nothing to teach you, then what about children? It’s as if they forgot how Jesus set a little child among the disciples and said they needed to become like little children (Matt. 18:2-4).
It’s not enough to say you honor and respect women, when you also say women have nothing to teach you. It’s not much further to ignoring mothers who report child abuse (or handling it in house) because in your mind “preaching the Gospel” and “protecting the church from harm” comes before exposing the church from negative publicity. And we know SGM had a policy of not reporting child abuse, with disastrous consequences.
I would like to get the “gospelly” crowd to treat women as their true equals and learn from us, but I’m afraid I may just have to be satisfied with a policy that says, “We will call the police when there is a suspected case of child abuse.” Because they’re not even doing that, and that’s basic.
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
I suggest this be included in the speaker’s bio for Mahaney at the upcoming T4G conference!
How many times do New Calvinist icons and the thousands of young reformers who follow them need to hear that Mahaney disqualified himself from ministry a long time ago due to his mishandling of SGM abuse? How much longer will they ignore the cries from watchmen for justice to prevail, for the abused to be heard, for closure and healing? The church is becoming a reproach and byword in the world as leadership failures flood the media – are there no prophets in the T4G crowd who will step forward to declare “You are the man!” and bring an end to this?
Thousands of new reformers will flock to Louisville in April (ground-zero for New Calvinism) to hear Mahaney speak. The vast crowd will include reformed “pastors” from across America, seminarians from nearby SBTS, and countless YRR who just want to be in the presence of their icons. They will hug each other, sing Kumbaya, and fellowship in the “spirit” of the moment. Of course, God will not be anywhere near their assembly because they have ignored His counsel:
“Since you have not warned him … you will be responsible for his blood.” (Ezekiel 3)
Mahaney set the tone for T4G in this bizarre missive to his bros, one the first posts on their blog, back in 2006:
http://t4g.org/2006/02/real-men/
“Mark and Lig, if you haven’t already read the Winter 2005 issue of Southern Seminary magazine (The Tie) you must do so! The issue is titled ‘Show yourself a man’ and there are two excellent articles for fathers and sons:
‘Show yourself a man’ by Randy Stinson (I am presently reading this article with my 12 year old son Chad).
‘When does a boy become a man?’ by Al Mohler (I will be reading this article with Chad in the future). Actually Al gave this message here at Covenant Life (“Being Men and Raising Men,” November 5, 2004) and it was a unique and outstanding message.
…..
And finally Al’s ‘President’s Journal’ column titled “The Boy Problem, Then and Now”…Here’s a great quote from Al’s column:
‘Wimps, on the other hand, look to women for emotional support, consider girlfriends to be conversational partners and look to women for pity.’
…this reminded me of a rule I want us to adopt for our blog. No smiley faces allowed! Real men do not use smiley faces on e-mails! This is fine for the ladies, but not the men. Real men communicate humor effectively without having to use a smiley face and real men can discern the presence of genuine humor without seeing a smiley face. So let our blog be free from all wimp-like communication!”
Muslin fka Deana Holmes wrote:
I agree they have a defective view, and it definitely minimizes abuse by men against women, partly because they simply refuse to BELIEVE women over men and even when they do they probably think anything a man does is because a woman has either been ‘uppity’ or a ‘jezebel’. But children?
What sort of *decent* man could possibly be ok with child abuse? I don’t fundamentally understand this. Maybe that’s a good thing. I suspect it has to do with thinking of yourself, or adult men, as the only ones who ‘matter’? But even that should not excuse abuse. I just…I don’t understand it. Unless they are secretly abusers themselves. That’s the only logic here that makes sense.
@ Muslin fka Deana Holmes:
I should say there is also something to do with ‘ownership’ of women and children. Maybe you can do anything you want to your ‘property’ and men who see this going on are unwilling to interfere because of that? Because even the most ‘gospel/dude/bro’ types will pay lip service to men ‘protecting’ women and children (although they are protecting them from themselves as far as I can see), so where does that fall in?
You protect your own property, unless you are the one doing the abuse in which case it’s ok. So other men leave another man’s property alone. The only scenario left where someone might be protected is when a man is hurting another man’s property, but then hierarchy kicks in?
Mind you, I think this is all nuts. Just trying to understand the logic.
Ricco wrote:
That’s amazing insight.
Muslin fka Deana Holmes wrote:
On one of the blogposts there was a photo of an actual millstone. Ouch.
Bill Kinnon posted another article by CT (2/6/18) on a different thread. I thought it would be helpful to have it here as well.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2018/february/sovereign-grace-rachael-denhollander-sgm-abuse-ct-interview.html
Ricco wrote:
The athletic part of how this is playing out is so ironic.
When God says vengeance is His, He also has an incredible sense of humor (Psalm 2). I used to think Psalm 2 was referring to some dictators in a 3rd world, however, could it also be false religious leaders?
Beakerj wrote:
Anybody that’s been to hell and back – believers who have suffered great wrongs and come out on the other side – often have a boldness and determination to confront evil that the average church member avoids. When I looked at Rachael’s countenance in media coverage of the Nassar trial, in interviews she has conducted, and even in the photo at the top of this piece, I see a believer who has set her face for victory – God has raised her up for such a time as this.
Rachael, if you are listening in:
“Because the Sovereign LORD helps me, I will not be disgraced. Therefore have I set my face like flint, and I know I will not be put to shame.” (Isaiah 50:7)
Loren Haas wrote:
On Twitter, I have expressed my support of Rachel Denhollander as well as my concerns that they will continue to go after her as they did to the two of us. Thankfully she is a strong woman who has great support. She is also an attorney.
There are many who believe that the SGM situation and CJ Mahaney’s continued rock star support on the part of The Gospel Coalition, T4G, Al Mohler, Mark Dever, Russell Moore, etc is very, very odd. My guess is that it goes way beyond just the enormous amount of money that Mahaney threw at them. My guess is that there are secrets and Mahaney knows them.
Through the years, we have heard speculation as to what these secrets might include. We have refused to publish them without proof. But, something smells about this whole mess.
@ Jerome:
These quotes confirm that CJ Mahaney has no clue what being a man really means. For someone (along with all the other men who support him) who promotes being “biblical,” he and his friends don’t have a clue what a “biblical” man looks like.
I’m a simple sort of guy – I’ve got some simple questions at this point:
“Why in the world does anyone attend an SGM church?!”
“Why in the world would anyone want to pastor an SGM church?!”
@ Todd Wilhelm:
I know that you agree with me that there must be *secrets* that Mahaney knows within the higher echelons of his compadres. The compadres play games with the *breathless followers,* telling them that Mahaney is as pure as the driven snow and there is nothing to see there. They, being breathless followers, agree and are happily manipulated in order to keep book deals (books which no one reads) and conference speaking slots in which they are preaching the same old ,same old to the same old, same old choir.
Will those secrets ever come to light. For sure in heaven. Not so sure on earth.
I am hoping to be able to print a story in the next couple of weeks that will demonstrate just how heartless and intransigent on of the compadres is which it comes to SGM.
Rachel D. is giving them a run for their money but they will run and run hard. I pray they do not attempt to mow her down like they have tried with a few of us.
Max wrote:
Make no sense, does it? But then, lemmings are known for this…..
dee wrote:
Good Lord, just look at this crew … you know that there have to be “secrets” aplenty:
http://t4g.org/about/
Mercy wrote:
The Deebs really, really want everyone who reads this to pray for Rachel, Jacob and their family. She is stepping on their toes because Mahaney has been deemed “he whose name must not be spoken.”
I cannot imagine, for the life of me, that SGC/SGM will ever allow GRACE to step into their cauldron. If they do, then TWW.will happily help raise the money. I have already committed $100 (and more to come) as well as the services of this blog.
I believe that Mahaney fought tooth and nail not to be deposed under oath. They paid a small fortune to have Ambassadors of Reconciliation to come in and say nothing because they claimed they were not there to investigate the claims of the victims!!!!
@ Beakerj:
Thank you!
Jen C wrote:
LOL
dee wrote:
Dee, when one realizes that CJ Mahaney was willing to use blackmail to gain control of the ministry he co-founded, why would he not be willing to use it to keep a place on the T4G stage. There is every indication that CJ suffers from NPD (and hundreds of others suffer as a result of his need for Narcissistic Supply).
His hunger is not for the gospel. It’s for the adulation of the crowds.
It’s amazing to me that has been covered in exhaustive detail over the past decade, yet CJ soldiers on, with the support of “men” who want us to consider them leaders in the western Church.
My own plethora of posts on CJ are here: http://kinnon.tv/?s=Mahaney
Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
You need to know that a number of people have left comments on TGC’s Facebook page, including me. Those comment have disappeared. The ones that remain are the typical types, hoping that the leaders will throw some crumbs in their direction.
Mercy wrote:
If you are a YRR lemming and reading this, I have some advice. As you run with the mass of other rodents toward the cliff, I suggest you veer sharply to the right just before you get to the edge. I have a feeling that the New Calvinist leaders who are out in front of your lemming stampede are quickly approaching the precipice.
Jerome wrote:
And with that kind of rhetoric, I think my point is proven. The T4G leaders do not see women as their equals. Which is why one of my signs will say something like:
JYJames wrote:
Well… when we see Jesus, we see the Father. So, who did Jesus get angry with?
(I ask rhetorically, not because I don’t think you know already.)
Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
Probably not, since Justin Taylor in an earlier T4G article said “we are friends with C.J.”
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/why-we-have-been-silent-about-the-sgm-lawsuit/
Speaking out of both sides of your mouth hurts like the dickens after a while.
Lea wrote:
I don’t think they are abusers. I think they lust after power, and doing right by children is not a path to power in their world. That’s because they are such very manly men and the way to get ahead is manly activities. Remember, CJ Mahaney published the booklet, “Don’t Waste Your Sports.”
The care of children is not very manly at all in their world and is left to women. There’s lip service paid, but seriously…*shakes head*. If the T4G, TGC, Calvinista-Industrial Complex really cared about children, they would have made “call the police when there’s reported child abuse.”
We wouldn’t be having this discussion if T4G truly cared about children and sat CJ down. Right now, his inability to confess to regularly and systematically covering up child abuse has made his name famous in the worst possible way. How can this guy be a representative of Jesus when he has this cloud hanging over him.
Let me be clear. I am not perfect. I have a horrible temper. I swear like a sailor. I failed as a lawyer and bounced from job to job for a decade before I landed at my current employer. I have strange ideas in my head. I am not a person to admire or follow. This is why I am not “leading a protest” in Louisville. I’m going to be out there as a profoundly imperfect person representing only myself.
But I do know one thing-you don’t cover up child abuse. You call the cops. And if you failed to report, and your policy was not to report, you come out and apologize and then sit down, CJ Mahaney.
Jerome wrote:
What. On. Earth.
Everybody knows women are just blow up dolls with nothing to offer, feelings, etc!!
@ Muslin fka Deana Holmes:
So sad. Jesus reprimanded the apostles for trying to keep the little children from coming to Him. Those passages must be missing from their Bibles. Perhaps the statute of limitations ran out…..
Muslin fka Deana Holmes wrote:
I agree with you that they don’t necessarily intend to abuse, but the end of the sentence tells another story. I just read Jeff Vanvonderen’s Tired of Trying to Measure Up. I can’t remember the exact quote, but he said that abuse is using someone else to fulfill your own needs against their will. Whether it is physical, sexual, or emotional, this is the hallmark of abuse. Using children’s behavior to enhance your reputation (there is a verse in Timothy about elders having control of their family that they always use) is by this definition abusive. I was raised in a house where my behavior had to reflect well on my parents at all times and any extenuating circumstances were just excuses. That isn’t good for children
What I find frustrating is this is not a difficult issue. I can understand that loyalty or admiration for someone who might be an abuser can make things complicated, but theologically it is simple. If you can’t do the right thing regarding sexual abuse even if it costs you in relationships, you have no business in ministry. And if you can’t do the right thing regarding sexual abuse, how can you hope to do the right thing when the issue is more complex?
@ Max:
Max, my thought about your questions is that the people that flock to these churches/websites/etc probably think that SGM/TGC are the one’s that have it “right”, the more “pure” form of Christianity.
Ricco wrote:
Hm.
There is a callousness amongst these men, abusers or not. I believe there is also a fair bit of seeing what is easiest for you rather than what actually is.
But there is something else too, because this blind loyalty to CJ cannot be that profitable on its own. If they really were only being mercenary, wouldn’t it be much simpler and more profitable to kick him to the curb?
Jen C wrote:
MUSCULARLY Educated?
Lea wrote:
Remember The Humble One HUMBLY waving a big check and saying “And THIS is how you get invited back!”?
That’s also how you get such Good Friends and Defenders. “KA-CHING!”
Dan from Georgia wrote:
I find myself then wondering about the Holy Spirit. Is He working in those people? Has He been quenched? Doesn’t He give wisdom from above? These are questions which open up a Pandora’s Box of even greater questions, those with eternal consequences. Why are they being ignored? Who is their God? Maybe that should be small “g”.
Jen C wrote:
Her knowing — Deep– As atypical Muscularity
His going– in Fear– For unbiblical Masculinity
Thank you, thank you very much
In three words:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImgHoGgCn8U
Dan from Georgia wrote:
Just as there are Muslims who think that ISIL and the Taliban are the ones that have the “right”, more “pure” form of Islam.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I’m sorry, but I feel like 10k in capital hill is chump change. Unless he’s handing over millions, I think there is another explanation.
Lea wrote:
Just like in Pornography:
Just big bazongas, a tight slot, and an MP3 loop praising His Manliness.
“The only reason I am able to have the support of these leaders now is because I am speaking out against an organization not within their community. Had I been so unfortunate so as to have been victimized by someone in their community, someone in the Sovereign Grace network, I would not only not have their support, I would be massively shunned. That’s the reality.” (Rachael Denhollander)
When the fire got too hot in Maryland, C.J. Mahaney fled to Kentucky to be near his T4G bud Al Mohler (Louisville, ground-zero for New Calvinism). He subsequently started another SGM church in that city and teamed up with the Southern Baptist Convention. Yes Sovereign Grace Church-Louisville is now an SBC church. Within SBC ranks, Dr. Frank Page is the primary executive voice – he serves as President & CEO of the SBC Executive Committee. Of course, we know that Al Mohler is currently the most powerful man in SBC, but nevertheless Frank Page is a key figure. To my knowledge, Dr. Page has not said anything publicly about SGM/Mahaney in light of Rachael’s statement against them. This is an age-old problem with SBC … no executive denominational accountability for wayward churches and pastors as long as they comply with the tenets of the Baptist Faith and Message statement of faith.
I checked Page’s twitter traffic this morning – no mention of the bold stand that Rachael (a Southern Baptist) has taken. Nor has he issued a statement in SBC media that I can find. “I would not only not have their support, I would be massively shunned. That’s the reality” (Rachael Denhollander). If someone can point to anything Dr. Page has said in this regard, I stand corrected.
Strangely, the only SBC big-boy who has chimed in is Al Mohler (the hypocrisy in that is deafening).
Muslin fka Deana Holmes wrote:
Isn’t The Humble One also into Fantasy Football (AKA “NFL Team Owner: The Role-Playing game”)?
As an Old School Gamer who was into D&D during the Satanic Panic, THAT really stands out to me.
D&D is “SAY-TANN-IC!” but a Fantasy Football RPG is CHRISTIAN(TM)?
Max wrote:
doubleplusungood ref doubleplusunperson.
memhole.
Lea wrote:
Pre-Christian (i.e. PAGAN) Roman society: The Paterfamilias (Patriarch) has Total Rights of Life & Death (including Sexual Rights) over ALL his animate property. “WIWA ROMA!”
Lea wrote:
A Child Abuser, of course.
dee wrote:
You must have been saying some powerful stuff.
I’m looking over places I have commented to see if they still have them.
So far I still see some:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10154880908932723&id=31365402722
Dan from Georgia wrote:
The problem with deception is that you don’t know you are deceived because you are deceived.
Any religious group which diminishes Jesus, subordinates female believers, controls congregations by manipulation and intimidation, and talks more about dead theologians and living icons than they do about the Son of God, is about as deceptive as it gets in church.
@ Jerome:
Jerome, I thought you were doing satire with the smiley face thing, but it’s real. Ha.
I found other comments left up. I’m curious what you said Dee that they deleted from Facebook.
There are still good comments standing on their fb page about Rachael Denhollander.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10154863922682723&id=31365402722
dee wrote:
This is a great point. They have a lot more to lose by not throwing C.J. under the bus. They finally let go of Mark Driscol when he became an embarrassment. There has to be another reason they are willing to defend C.J. so hard and stick up for him.
Wow! This lady is brave, smart and taking it to them! We all know they don’t have the courage to respond to her. She has already eaten their lunch. I bet they wish they would never responded in the first place. I bet all we get now are crickets. I admire this lady! Wonderfully responded to and well thought out.
Rachel’s response to the SGC statement is excellent.
There’s not much to say beyond that.
Gail wrote:
The Humble One has blackmail dirt on all of them?
(Like the Grand Dragon of the Indiana Klan did on the entire Indiana State Legislature in the Roaring Twenties? When the Grand Dragon went down in a sex scandal (rape resulting in a fatality) on the eve of his shoo-in election as Governor, he released the dossier upon conviction and half the Legislature plus the Mayor of Indianapolis joined him in prison.)
Wow! Checkmate! Rachael, you are my superhero and role model, too!
It is amazing to see how God has turned the tragedy in her life into a force to be reckoned with, and into potentially the vehicle for protecting countless others from the same happening to them. While I am sad she had to go through that, I am happy that by God’s grace she is using her experience and lawyer superpowers to destroy evil. I have no doubt God has raised her for such a time as this.
Thank you, Rachael, for all you have done! We stand behind you!
Max wrote:
You mean “the presence of their gods in the flesh.”
Will they have a Reformed (and MALE) Leni Reifenstahl there filming the entire assembly for a new Triumph of the Will? (Opening with scenes of The Humble One’s plane passing over the stadium packed with the columns of his faithful followers to the hymn “Tomorrow Belongs to Me”?)
dee wrote:
Most of the usual YRR suspects are keeping quiet about this right now – perhaps hoping it will go away or perhap trying to get their stories together. This article today on Founders could be telling us their strategy: https://founders.org/2018/02/06/my-son-withhold-judgment/
Taylor’s most recent article put these guys in a bind – they now have to choose between Taylor and Mahaney. For all their talk on gender roles, none of them are showing real manliness.
Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
Not even Deep Throat Driscoll’s “I CAN BEAT YOU UP! I CAN BEAT YOU UP! I CAN BEAT YOU UP!” manliness…
Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
I should have included some quotes:
“There is a significant difference between a charge or accusation and a decision rendered by a duly established authority.”
“Think long and hard about truth and don’t think so long and hard about foolish ramblings.”
The years of thinking about truth have past. Now it’s time for these “men” to be held accountable for their failure to act.
dee wrote:
#cjneedstorepent
Mercy wrote:
LOL
___
“Another Possible SGC Shake Down, Perhaps?”
hmmm…
There is currently absolutely no requirement for an investigation of the 501(c)3 religious organization called ‘Sovereign Grace Churches’ (SGC) , as no known relative applicable state law(s) have been broken. State officials and law enforcement apparently know this.
GoFish.
However, the case being precariously tried in the domain of Social Media & public opinion, will most likely continue…time will tell if ‘the streets’ are made safe again…
B sêê U
ATB
Sòpy
—-
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lzAPeGlrfMU
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-ssId2r7F1I
;~)
– –
dee wrote:
Absolutely Dee. I tweeted a photo of Lance Armstrong and CJ Mahaney today. It was purposeful. They both had some dark secrets. Lance was eventually outed because too many people knew the truth. Mahaney’s day will also come.
God does not forget the abuse of little children by making them forgive their abusers! And those who did that abuse, both the original and the “forgiveness abuse”, will one day find themselves in front of the God who said that a millstone around the neck on the way to the deep sea would be a better judgment on them than what he will bring to them. CJ et al. will be crying for the mill stone!
Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
‘Duly Established Authority’s’ don’t seem to do a great job with sex abuse cases, especially when committed by their friends. You have to be deaf, dumb and blind not to see that.
ION: Space
At the time of writing, the launch window for the Falcon Heavy appears to be closing and it looks as though the launch won’t happen today. High-level wind shear is being cited as the reason for the delay.
“High-level” in this context typically refers to around 30,000 feet (give or take a wide margin of error). The aerodynamics of the three-core rocket are complicated enough to begin with, but this altitude is around the point where the vehicle would be experiencing “Max Q”, or the point of greatest atmospheric drag between the launch pad (zero drag: not moving) and orbit (zero drag: no air). You don’t want sudden changes in the wind to throw you off even further, so it’s not surprising they’re cautious about it.
Ricco wrote:
I’m laughing so hard at this right now at work. It’s a good thing I’m the only her her at the moment.
@ ishy:
It is pretty funny. Maybe Piper is a true prophet and a muscular woman is about to take him and all his bff’s down and that’s why he’s been freaking out about them?
I think those above are correct that Rachel and Dee and all those confronting this issue right now need a lot of prayer. We are finally seeing these things come to light in a big way and the men in power seem quite scared.
But scared men can do very dangerous things, as we’ve seen here before.
Ricco wrote:
Couldn’t use “Head Apostle”, The Humble One already has dibs on the title (chuckle chuckle)…
ishy wrote:
“Fear has pulled more triggers than Hate.”
— David Drake, Old Nathan
Sòpwith wrote:
“Sovereign Grace” in the name of a church is the direct equivalent of “People’s Democratic” in the name of a third world country.
The context of sermons in this line of churches rail against The Culture incessantly. (Depending on who the perceived Super Other is). The preachers model outrage to their congregations and go mute when one of their own has an “infraction”. News Flash: sexual assault is an egregious crime. Occasionally there will be someone who takes the “righteousness shall prevail” part of those teachings to heart and rises up to demand the self same teachers apply the “Three Fingers Pointing Back At You” rule when in house wickedness is uncovered. The mature thing is to take stock and just STOP the misplaced loyalties already. STOP IT. Hellfire cannot be secretly stoked without smoke rising. Losing face among peers, financial perks or some other stupid narrative going through their minds takes priority over decency. They come over as shocked that the Rachel Denhollanders and Daniel Sheas et al. are the true “prophets in the land for such a time as this”.
It’s all so flippin’ sad. More so for the children and young adults who have been harmed.
PS Because people do not go to church with Post-it notes stuck on their foreheads written with their life stories and reasons why they are attending, I find I can not in good conscience label them as sheeples, sheepies, snowflakes, pew-sitters, pew peons, monetary units, and other slurs. Same goes with the non-church goers labels. Clearly, I am not without judgements because I am posting blog comments. But molestation and cover-ups should remain an obvious disparagement in our society.
The tsunamis continue to over wash the shores of the Evangelical churches:
https://texasmonitor.org/paul-pressler-jared-woodfill-defamation-suit/
‘Worst kept secret in Houston:’ Defamation suit emerges against Woodfill, Pressler”
The Texas Monitor By Johnny Kampis – December 19, 2017
https://texasmonitor.org/southern-baptist-convention-added-to-pressler-molestation-lawsuit/
Southern Baptist Convention added to Pressler molestation lawsuit
The Texas Monitor By Johnny Kampis – February 2, 2018
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Pretty much!
Ricco wrote:
It is just too good a fit.
Will we hear a Piper Tweet about how Rachael’s muscles are causing “unnatural arousal” in said Head Prophet?
Forrest wrote:
The more/louder the Virtue Signalling, the greater the Corruption.
There was a brief flash of interest (I use the word for want of a better) here this week in one Mr Copeland and his teaching that godliness is a means of getting rich.
Years ago, the CEO of the congregation I was part of in Glasgow quoted some or other famous prosperity teacher as saying, I’m impressed when I see the wealth of some Christians – until I see the wealth of some heathen. The thing is, followers of Jesus can’t help but be impressed by very different things than that.
Now is the time for us to pray and beg out Lord to move on the hearts of men to do the right thing. He is able and willing to answer such prayers! I do believe God has raised this young lady up for such a time as this to be the Deborah of our time on this subject. You will have my prayer support as well as financial support when the fund raising begins!
An Attorney wrote:
Forced forgiveness is no forgiveness at all. Either they don’t understand that, or the whole thing is just for show.
And the Southern Baptist Convention can’t figure out why they keep losing members. They can identify the decline as starting in 2000, but surely, it doesn’t have anything to do with their decision to defrock women ministers or their later decisions.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
It’s a sovereign country, evidently, too.
We are praying for Rachel and her family.
This is fascinating to watch as it shows how one powerful woman can totally shut down really heavy evil. No wonder the devil tries so hard to keep women silent in the church.
NJ wrote:
I think it is mainly a manipulation tactic. Not only can the leaders say that the children admitted to sinning (I honestly can’t fathom this argument at all, but they do use it), but it can be them used to insist that the topic is closed and any further discussion on it is ‘gossip’. Moreover, taking it to the authorities will be announced as being unforgiving, but the real reason is they are protecting their bottom line.
NJ wrote:
It’s more about keeping people quiet.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Sorry, should’ve given some context. Something a former pastor of ours here in north Central Scotland (and in this case, I use the word “pastor” quite deliberately) often says is, A church is only as strong as its ability to care for its weakest member. One could debate the minutiae of that, but I know what he means.
I don’t believe it’s the devil who is drawing positive attention to people such Rachael Denhollander (and many others) who are standing up and saying, with eminent dignity, it is wrong to treat people in that way. To follow Jesus is to do more than grasp the eternal truth that * God hates gays. For one thing, it is to understand that how people without money and status are treated, matters a great deal to God.
* Wartburgers are invited to read between the lines there.
Stop press – apparently, The Countdown is back on.
NJ wrote:
Right? So simple. Forgiveness cannot be forced or coerced.
Hmmm. Maybe there is a tie in here for how they don’t seem to understand the importance of consent in other contexts..
Forrest wrote:
That too.
Oh marky Mark…..spin doctor and corporate bs man. Mark Prater will finally have to offer more than his soft eyed weepy toned absurdities to evade this pr debacle . Time to face the truth.
I want join in with others to express my appreciation to Rachael for her willingness to bring God’s light into the darkness of abuse in the church. When the praise of man rules the day and the praise that comes only from God is not valued… then clarity of thinking is lost and good and evil become all mixed up… with the end result of course that evil triumphs.
“I (Jesus) do not accept praise from men, but I know you (religious leaders). I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts… How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only God? John 5:41-44
I just sent this letter to Lifeway (who is sponsoring the Together 4 the Gospel event http://t4g.org/ in April at which CJ Mahaney is scheduled to speak.)
I will let you know what/if I hear back.
————————————————————————–
Feb. 6, 2018
Hello, Lifeway.
I am a practicing Christian and currently a candidate for a Master’s degree in Ministry.
I would like to know if, after US Gymnast Rachel Denhollander’s public challenge to Sovereign Grace Ministries to hire GRACE to do a comprehensive investigation of allegations of a large-scale cover up of sexual abuse, you are planning on removing CJ Mahaney from your “Together 4 the Gospel” event if SGM does not support sexual abuse victims by allowing this investigation.
In case you are not aware of these public events, here are some websites to bring you up to date:
https://www.facebook.com/OfficialDenhollander/posts/1694537600626553
https://www.washingtonian.com/2016/02/14/the-sex-abuse-scandal-that-devastated-a-suburban-megachurch-sovereign-grace-ministries/
http://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2018/february/sovereign-grace-rachael-denhollander-sgm-abuse-ct-interview.html
http://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2014/may/c-j-mahaney-joshua-harris-resign-from-gospel-coalition-sgm.html
Please advise.
Thank you,
Meagan Gee-Henry
One comment was not allowed. A person claimed that Rachel Denhollander is a. *professional victim.* I wonder if the trolls are out from her previous church. This man is a despicable. Rachel is a true hero to many people out there.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Nick-I will be in Edinburgh for two night in June. Up for a meet?
The latest issue of WORLD magazine quotes and commends Rachel .. . But leaves OUT the quote about the SGM scandal……
dee wrote:
Pathetic. She is a professional. She is a professional LAWYER.
Get it straight.
Brianne Randall (now Brianne Randall-Gay) was actually the first person to file a police report against Larry Nasser. She filed her report with the Meridian Township Police on September 17, 2004. A rape kit and investigation was done including an interview with Larry Nassar. He convinced the detectives on the case his actions were a legitimate medical procedure and the prosecutor decided to not bring charges. (The Meridian Township Police just publicly apologized to her and her parents last week.) Rachel Denhollander was the first victim to go public with her police report.
dee wrote:
Is there a Tesla Roadster in orbit, with a spacesuited dummy in the driving seat and the words “Don’t Panic” in large friendly letters on the dashboard?
That’s two really good bits of news today.
ION: Space Update
As a follow-up to my last comment, there is a Tesla Roadster in orbit around the earth as I type. The first Falcon Heavy launch was an almost complete success; both the side-boosters landed successfully, and the upper stage has (at the time of writing) completed two successful burns – one to put the car into a parking orbit, and the second to raise the apogee to 7000km. The final burn, to accelerate the car (and the music of David Bowie) to escape velocity, is scheduled for a few hours’ time.
The only fly in the ointment is that the signal from drone-ship Of Course I Still Love You was lost as the central core was yet to land, and naebdy seems to ken whether it did or not.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I think you may be onto something HUG.
The likelihood is large that the chuckling one (Mahaney) has the bad-goods on more than one dude in the inner circle.
Driscoll turned out to be a disposable liability. Not so with Mahaney, in other words, it ain’t quite that simple with the chuckling one.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
The “Don’t Panic” on the roadster’s info screen was an especially nice touch.
@ Burwell:
I wonder, was the ‘spaceman’ carrying a towel? I hope so.
Gentlemen of SGM – did you REALLY think that clapping back at an ATTORNEY would result in anything but a calling-out in whatever way would make the most difference?
Burwell wrote:
I was thinking the same thing, you hoopy frood.
Muff Potter wrote:
Why do you think he’s chuckling?
@ Nick Bulbeck:
And both side-boosters making a formation landing like space-opera rocketships…
GreekEpigraph wrote:
“B-But she was just a WOMAN!”
Abigail wrote:
“One hand washes the Other…”
Kari wrote:
Remember the Brezhnev-era USSR, doubling down and screaming louder with “Increase Political Consciousness among the Masses!” while their system was falling apart?
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Well, Copeland really got rich off the Jesus racket — 3/4 of a BILLION dollars in the bank!
Donna wrote:
Prayers are useless without some sort of ACTION to back them up.
Abigail wrote:
Not that there is a connection or anything, but Al Mohler is on the Board of Directors at WORLD.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
P.S. – I should add, as long as it’s not the 29th and 30th of June, as we’re away that w/e.
Burwell wrote:
There wasn’t one in shot, but it would be a surprising omission.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Because . . . Jesus did this, right? Oh, maybe he would have done this if he had the time? Or, something made up from proof texted scriptures?
As a person who was in SGM (then called PDI) for 13 years until 2001, I can tell you that fear is used to keep members, lay leaders, and pastors in line to control them. Humility is defined as submitting to the leaders above you. If you don’t submit or if you question too much, you will be branded as proud, rebellious, and ungodly. The only option at that point is to leave, which I did.
Yes, for many years I thought that PDI/SGM was the “right” way to be a Christian. Thank God that He delivered me from that legalism and bondage. He used Galatians 5:1 to release me: “It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery” (NIV).
Thanks, Dee & Deb, for gathering this info about Rachael. She is an amazing and strong woman of God! It is so encouraging to see someone with her legal credentials, faith, and experience speaking out against the SGM sexual abuse coverup & collusion by religious leaders. I will be praying for her and her supporters in their efforts.
Judgment must begin with the house of God. Jesus drove out the moneychangers from the temple. The sexual abuse issue is a desecration to God’s house and His family.
Lea wrote:
It’s actually worse. Real Reformeds would never “force” someone to forgive. OBVIOUSLY forgiveness can’t be coerced or commanded. Instead they express grave and serious concern about the state of the victim’s faith and eternal soul if he/SHE doesn’t immediately WANT to forgive, or finds it difficult, or expresses concern that the abuse continues.
And the worst part is, there’s a sort of truth (ie, that forgiveness is a fruit of faith), which makes it even more confusing for the victim and subjects him/HER to great spiritual distress becuase of the wicked distortion the Real Reformeds make of the gospel.
Ask me how I know.
On the Healing Journey wrote:
Good way to put this. SGM’s use of fear to control.
On the Healing Journey wrote:
The Wartburg community rejoices with you and prays that God will continue to strengthen you “On the Healing Journey.” Many who comment on TWW have similar experiences and speak here to inform and warn. May others find the deliverance you experienced by escaping the grip of legalism and bondage from aberrant expressions of faith across America.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Excellent point, Nick. Exactly.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
True and our relationship with God is evidenced in how we treat each other.
On the Healing Journey wrote:
I’m glad you managed to break free and find your freedom in God.
I had several good friends that came out of PDI/SGM. One in particular has left the faith almost entirely and is still pretty broken down by what happened there. Another family I knew moved away for a good job opportunity against the wishes of the church and was ordered to return permanently and face church discipline. Once they were away for a year or two, they began to see how horrible and manipulative the leaders were. Those people were what made me find Brent Detwiler’s account years ago.
Rachel has CLASS!! These guys can’t stand it that an intelligent articulate WOMAN is exposing them on a national stage!!!!
Many of the people that know and respect Al Mohler think he is the smartest guy on the planet but it looks like C.J. may really be ahead of him in that he bought AM with SGM/SGC money and has used him for cover and connections. This may get interesting to see what happens with all these users and abusers when they begin to see that they have been (ed.) played.
Abigail wrote:
Don’t forget muscular and toned! I’m sure Ms. Denhollander has better muscle tone than John Piper.
Last sentence in prev. post should read “see that they have been played”.
Max wrote:
Max, you and me both, Brother. I have asked myself these questions for years.
Steve240 wrote:
Such church leaders are the current-day counterpart of the Nicolaitan overlords Jesus warned about in Revelation 2. They controlled the laity by manipulation and intimidation (hmmm, I wonder if members had to sign a church covenant?). The Nicolaitans compelled church members to submit to their dominion through fear (elder-rule), twisting the Scripture to support their theology (sound familiar?). Jesus said he hated the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, warning such leaders and those who followed them to repent … or else.
Peter warned church leaders to steer clear of overlord church governance:
“The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed: Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly; NOR AS BEING LORDS OVER THOSE ENTRUSTED TO YOU, but being examples to the flock” (1Peter 5:1-3).
Folks, if your pastor manages by fear, rather than love … you are going the wrong way; get off the bus at first opportunity.
David wrote:
That’s because he keeps telling everybody how smart he is! Remember, he has a HUGE stack of books!
“… incredible Christian intellectual strength was poured into me” (Al Mohler). He is so smart that he saved a seminary!
https://world.wng.org/2015/05/albert_mohler_saving_a_seminary
Such a fawning article could not possibly have anything to do with Mohler being on the WNG board of directors…
@ Max:
My last comment was meant to be a reply to yours. I am hoping this new development with SGM will finally put a spotlight on what TGC and T4G have been foisting on the world.
I began attending a church that I recently discovered esteems 9Marks, John Piper, TGC, etc. This church recently installed a “book borrowing” wall, replete with books by same, & also including books by Carolyn Mahaney. Drivel. Pure drivel. When I protested promoting books by the enabling wife of a disgraced pastor, I was shot down. I was asked “don’t you believe in forgiveness?”, and “don’t you believe that Jesus’ death covered all that?”, and “don’t you believe in grace?”. I replied “this isn’t about forgiveness but about justice”. I was met with blank stares, followed by mantras and prattle about grace & forgiveness. The leadership is tone death b/c they jump directly to forgiveness while bypassing repentance, remorse and accountability. Rachel Denhollander is a modern day Joan of Arc, and I applaud her from the depths of my soul.
Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
My thoughts exactly. New Calvinism is a mutual admiration society … the flattery level among the reformed elite has reached sickening proportions.
Max wrote:
The topic of his plenary talk is “The Heartache and Heartbreak of Pastoral Ministry (2 Tim 4:9-18).” And he will be leading s seminar on “Criticism: A Pastor’s All-too-Common Companion.”
He’s the only person they could find to address these topics?
Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
I suspect C.J. Mahaney will still enjoy the spotlight, as he takes the stage at T4G in April to a standing ovation. Such is the spell that has been cast over New Calvinism. Strange days in Christendom to see such characters strutting about.
@ Jeanne:
Welcome to TWW. Your is a most interesting comment. I agree with your remark about Rachael Denhollander.
Jeanne wrote:
It’s called “cheap grace” … there’s an outbreak of that in New Calvinism. Hope you can find another place to worship in your area. In the meantime, tune into TWW … we are rag-tag bunch who love the Lord, but not fond of church charlatans – particularly the grace-grace-grace boys.
My apologies for the lack of attention to the proper spelling of Rachael Denhollander’s first name. TWO (2) a’s- Rachael.
Max wrote:
It’s then entire nation. We only see what we want to see. Believe what we want. Everything else is lies.
Abigail wrote:
They are between a rock and a hard place. To challenge Rachael in any way, after what she’s been through, would not appear very Christian. She does indeed had a national stage; I look for her to appear more in national media to address church abuse, citing the SGM example.
She certainly has the intellect, boldness, and knowledge of the SGM mess to put them through the wringer. They would be wise to stand down – she does have class and she’s using it effectively against them.
K.D. wrote:
Agreed. It seems that a strong delusion has settled over every compartment of American life. That happens to a nation which has forsaken God – we may honor Him with our lips, but our hearts are far from Him. The greatest need for each believer today is to pray for a new measure of discernment – the hedge is down and the enemy is setting up camp in our churches. We need to be able to sort out the genuine from the counterfeit.
Lea wrote:
Yes, it is truly pathetic. This shows they have nothing else. It is the response of losers.
Max wrote:
He has HUGE pride.
Jeanne wrote:
Perhaps it’s time to depart that ‘church’.
Forrest wrote:
Arrogance is running rampant in New Calvinist ranks.
Jerome wrote:
Mahaney speaks of these men – Mark, Lig & Al – like their his besties. They’re in thick with each other. What could possibly compel any of these men to stand up to Mahaney? It seems they love the praise of men more than the praise of God. With the way Duncan, Dever & Mohler are acting, if I didn’t know better, I’d think Mahaney has something to hold over each of their heads. But only the mafia, politicians and corporate America blackmail one another. Right? Hmmm… 🙂
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Forrest wrote:
Did Mohler actually say that? What a clown! I will never understand how this character ever got to be considered some kind of intellectual giant. I guess it was the size of his stack of books, or something. He seems like an intellectual midget to me. What IS it with these people that they go for this sort of idiocy? Well, I suppose there are a lot of things i will never understand.
Max wrote:
Max: My first thought: MONEY. Money must play a large part. If you’re a pastor at an SGM church, then you’re in with Mahaney. Then, by extension, you can potentially have a *in* with Mohler, Dever & Duncan and the rest of the popular Calvinista crowd. Then the potential for book deals, speaking at conferences and each other’s churches. It just might be an offer to hard to refuse for some men.
And now I’m thinking of something Jesus said: “Truly, they have their reward.” A reward in the here and now.
@ Darlene.:
Mohler, Dever and Duncan.
roebuck wrote:
Yeah, he was talking about the mentors and influencers in his life that helped create the giant that he is in Christendom:
“… by God’s grace I ended up in some places and in some relationships where incredible Christian intellectual strength was poured into me.”
https://world.wng.org/2015/05/albert_mohler_saving_a_seminary
Bill Kinnon wrote:
Bill Kinnon: It seems so slimy, so despicable that one who bears the name of Christian would use blackmail. But this Popular Preacher Club is a world far removed from my life. I can only understand what it must be like to owe people favors, to relish the spotlight and adoring fans, to obtain wealth in unscrupulous ways, to look the other way when child sex abuse and sexual assault occurs from an analytical point of view. I want NO PART of that world.
In Denhollander’s summary of concerns up top in the main post, she brings out the fact that SGC had an internal policy of not reporting sexual assaults to Law Enforcement in hopes of handling it in house.
How can this be? So far as I know, the sexual abuse of minors is a felony in all jurisdictions throughout the land. Do they somehow get a pass and immunity from reporting it?
In addition, they allowed known pedophiles further access to children.
Again I ask, how do they get away with it?
Are we seeing a replay of the recent film Spotlight?
Lea wrote:
Ah…but remember Lea, we’re equal in worth but have different roles. Gotta get that mantra down pat. 🙂
Max wrote:
No, it’s a Mutual MASTURBATION Society.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
And these New Calvinists have the nerve to criticize the Health and Wealth prosperity teachers. There’s little difference between them.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:
An overcooked noodle has better muscle tone than John Piper.
The reason he’s so terrified of Muscular Women is even a non-muscular woman could fold him up and toss him in a dumpster.
@ Muff Potter:
An insider has to be willing to break ranks and press charges. Within an institution, with those in the know, sometimes – maybe often? – no one is willing. (Examples: the many situations leading up to “me, too”.)
Max wrote:
Which explains a lot.
Ever heard of “The Fix is In”?
Muff Potter wrote:
I think the legal question is whether they are mandatory reporters. Whether you are required to report depends on the crime and your position and the jurisdiction. Most US jurisdictions (but not all) include clergy as mandatory reporters for child abuse; however, many also exempt clergy if their sole source of learning is through confession or similar confidential conversation. What some clergy will do is claim it was a confidential communication when a child tells them about being abused hence they are legally allowed to do nothing; it doesn’t seem to cross their minds to ask the child whether they would like help in reporting it to the police or permission to make a report or even flat out report it since the person telling them is the victim not the culprit. Then some are also just breaking the law.
The Larry Nassar case demonstrates:
1- it only takes one pervert to wreak havoc in hundreds of lives of innocents. One.
2- there is a complete hierarchy, an enormous community that enabled, supported, held up, said pervert. Many held the pervert in place. Suspected, did not investigate. Saw, turned a blind eye. Knew, did nothing. Had the full picture, covered it up. Complicit. Community.
“How can this be? Isn’t ‘the church’ supposed to be the place where victims of all kinds can seek shelter and support?”
Paying up and being quiet too often equals unity in the eyes of “leadership”.
Forrest wrote:
Agreed!
JYJames wrote:
Excellent comment!
Bill Kinnon wrote:
I mentioned something similar a long time ago on SGM Survivors. If Mahaney had no qualms about using blackmail then I wonder what else he has done since he lacked integrity in that area. One item that came out was his covering up child sex abuse in his congregation though I understand Mahaney claims he never was aware of that.
JYJames wrote:
Most of what you have written would only need to be adapted slightly to paint the picture “The SGM case demonstrates:” …
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I am glad I am not the only one who noticed the Kubrickian choreography on full display yesterday.
@ Max:
True. One wonders if this is typical (not a social scientist here).
Is it common that a predator is a solo act with a community of enabling cowards propping them up and holding them in place as they destroy the lives of hundreds of vulnerables?
A “community” could be a business, church, school, political entity (even a government, local or otherwise), social club, sports regime, police department, neighborhood, entertainment producer, etc.
When charter schools first started, some didn’t have the protocols of a public district, and all kinds of things went off the rails. Lots of damage, however unintended. It was the Wild West. Not that public schools don’t camouflage predators.
However, in that mode, anyone can start a church in the US. Some, also, are like the Wild West. Anything can happen and it does.
someone said prayers are useless without action to my comment about praying. I am a firm believer that faith without works is dead, but I also KNOW the God who created everything out of nothing says in His word be still and Know that I am God. There are events in life that only He can move on and I stand firm in the belief that this is something that requires that kind of unwavering faith in prayer…. possibly so we can all be reminded who is really in control here. As I said, I am supporting Rachael in prayer and will do so with find raising when needed.
Archived PDI website with pic of Mark Dever at their Leadership Conference in 2001:
https://web.archive.org/web/20020416014653/http://pdinet.org:80/conferences/leadership2001.html
“Mark Dever, senior pastor of Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington, D.C., returned for his second year of teaching at the Leadership Conference.”
Mohler was featured at the 2003 PDI Leadership Conference, Ligon Duncan in 2004, Piper in 2005 (was SGM by then). In 2006 the T4G Conferences began.
Description by a Dever intern of reception they got at PDI conferences:
http://sites.silaspartners.com/cc/article/0,,PTID314526_CHID598026_CIID1562436,00.html
“I recently attended a leadership conference organized by a group of churches known as PDI Ministries…My church’s staff had been invited to the conference by PDI’s leader, C.J. Mahaney…PDI Ministries majors in excellence. The church’s commitment to quality was evident from the moment we arrived at the conference. Everything was professionally designed and professionally presented. At the registration desk, we were all handed a glossy black box, stamped in gold foil with PDI’s logo. Inside was a free copy of their latest worship CD, a copy of the ministry’s magazine, and a professionally made “back-stage pass” nametag. When we arrived in our rooms at the hotel, each bed had a gift basket waiting on it, filled with candy and juices, bubble gum and breath mints. On the first night of the conference, we were invited to a reception in C.J.’s room. When we arrived, we were greeted by a fantastic spread of cold-cuts, fruits, crackers, breads, and beverages…I am not sure I have ever felt quite so loved and appreciated at a conference before.”
2006 T4G blog missive from Dever to Mahaney:
http://t4g.org/2006/05/mahaney-as-bunyan/
“Dear CJ, As your message from T4G continues to live on in my head & heart, and I remember your repeated requests to be allowed merely to attend the conference, rather than participate publicly…”
@ Jerome:
Great find!
@ Jerome:
seems CJ has a knack for knowing where a person’s price point is so he can buy their good opinion & allegiance. for this dever intern all it took was a glossy black box, a backstage pass, and bubblegum. how impressionable greg gilbert must be.
@ Jerome:
The plot thickens.
elastigirl wrote:
Ahhh, Greg Gilbert. I still remember an interview Mohler had with him when Gilbert’s book “What is the Gospel?” was released. At one point, Mohler asked him a question … Gilbert responded “Oh, Dr. Mohler, what a sweet question.”
The flattery within the New Calvinist tribe is so thick you can barely squeeze through it … and you wouldn’t be able at all, if it wasn’t so slimy.
JYJames wrote:
This is a common word used in New Calvinist churches … “We are a ‘community'” … a good attraction for folks looking for authentic church, only to find that they will be controlled and manipulated by church leaders if they sign the community covenant.
This from Mark Prater’s crock-of-monkey-snot statement:
Well, sure it is. Especially when a) you’re assuming that those accusations are false without examining them, and b) you don’t really care about victims of abuse. Makes the appearance of sympathy real, real hard.
“Truthfully”, “respectfully”, and “God-honoringly”? You ignored the facts of the case, thumbed your nose at a brave, intelligent professional, and made a laughingstock of your “family of churches” all at once. Zero for three, Prater.
But do keep on prating. It seems to be what you do best, and it’s digging a nice hole to bury you and Mahaney in. Can’t wait to see that.
Jen C wrote:
And… you think that Rachael should be threatened, or even impressed, by that?
My immediate response to that notion:
XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD
(*picks self up off floor*)
Jerome wrote:
Trick or Treat! In this case, the treat was the trick.
Jen C wrote:
Since he refuses to learn from a woman (I wonder how many “mighty” men railed against Deborah, God-appointed Judge of Israel in her day?), he will probably learn nothing of what God would intend for him to learn from this.
What is it the bible says about pride and having a stiff neck?
Erp wrote:
Most probably.
At day’s end though, I think that we’re going to see a repeat of the movie Spotlight.
The courts have just about had it with the Protestant Boyz Klub, and the same forces which bankrupted more than one Catholic Diocese will do the same to more than one fundagelical mega-church.
Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
Bingo.
@ Jerome:
Man. (No. Boy.)
The hubris and contempt, loosely disguised as humor, is breathtaking.
Lea wrote:
But even then, there is no protection. It is reported that they made victims (including little children!) ask forgiveness of their “repentant” abusers.
I wonder if that’s why God gave the sword to the Magistrate and not to religious leaders?
At least the magistrate has the idea of making abusers pay the consequences of their actions, even if it’s not always done right.
refugee wrote:
Interesting point, Lea.
Regardless of one’s feelings toward CBN,this exposure is terrific for the cause: https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2018/february/churchtoo-movement-about-to-take-off
Also, they address the part that CT left out: the case against SGM was dropped on mere technicalities rather than a finding of innocence.
And you gotta love Jimmy Hinton getting serious press! Good bless him and his ministry!
Barbara Roberts compiled a “complicity list” from Brent Detwiler’s recent article about Rachael Denhollander and SGM. You can see her Twitter thread here:
https://twitter.com/NotUnderBondage/status/961183651219177472
I compared that list with Jared Wilson’s list last week of Top 125 Influencers of the Gospel-Centered Movement.
16 of the 33 men on Detwiler’s complicity list were on Wilson’s influencer list. Here they are, with their rankings on the influencer’s list
1. John Piper
6. Al Mohler
7. D.A. Carson
8. John MacArthur
9. Justin Taylor
13. Tim Challies
15. C.J. Mahaney
16. Wayne Grudem
22. Mark Dever
25. Kevin DeYoung
26. Ligon Duncan
41. Bob Kauflin
54. Carl Trueman
62. Joe Carter
63. Ray Ortlund, Jr.
83. Phil Johnson
Some analysis:
5 of those 16 make up half the first 10 of 125 influencers.
10 of the 16 are listed among the top 25 influencers (i.e., top 20%).
15 are in the top 63 influencers (i.e., top 50%).
What does this say about depth/width of “gospel-centered movement” support for C.J. Mahaney/SGM/SGC?
What does this imply about a “TGC/T4G/SGM/SGC Industrial Complex”?
Here’s the link to Jared Wilson’s article, “The Top 125 Influences on the Gospel-Centered Movement.” It was posted January 26, 2018, on The Gospel Coalition blog.
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/jared-c-wilson/top-125-influences-gospel-centered-movement/
@ brad/futuristguy:
Great analysis.
Another piece of analysis:
There are 16 men on Mr Detwiler’s list who are also on Mr Wilson’s top 125 influencers list.
This equals 13% of the whole set of Gospel-Movement Centered Influencers.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
This is one out of every eight people on Mr Wilson’s list.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
The list should be titled “The Top 125 Influencers of the New Calvinist Movement”. The new reformers toss “gospel-centered” around too much … this has more to do with advancing a theology than preaching the Gospel.
elastigirl wrote:
“Everybody has his price, or a guy like me couldn’t exist.”
— some 19th Century “Captain of Industry”
Max wrote:
That brings to mind something on KFI afternoon drive-time shortly after the 1994 Los Angeles riots. John & Ken were interviewing a giddy-sounding female who was “spokeshole” for some sort of official feel-good recovery organization; she always returned to her tag line of “The COMMUNITY Came Together”. The same “Community(TM)” who a few weeks before were at each others’ throats all over the city (“It’s The Red Hour! FESTIVAL! FESTIVAL!”). Every time she said “The COMMUNITY”, she sounded about ready to squeal like a groupie — “OOOOO! DIVERSITY!”
brad/futuristguy wrote:
Dave Miller wrote a piece several years ago on SBC Voices regarding the casual use of this term in the New Calvinist momement: “Missing the Point by Magnifying the Gospel? Problems with Gospel-Centered Terminology.” He expressed concerns about co-opting the term gospel where one’s gospel is essentially his theology.
http://sbcvoices.com/magnifying-the-gospel-and-missing-the-point-problems-with-gospel-centered-terminology/
Strange days in the American church when we serve up gospel-centered this and gospel-centered that without ever delivering the Gospel! The reformed movement has drifted from proclaiming the Main Thing as the main thing.
Muff Potter wrote:
Which of course will be spun as “PERSECUTION!!!!! For Righteousness’ Sake”.
When will it get past “just about” to just plain “had it”?
brad/futuristguy wrote:
Then, I guess you would call those “Bad Influencers.” Perhaps Mr. Wilson should construct two lists and move some of them to the bad-boy list when appropriate. As I looked at some of those names, instead of a Hall of Fame they need to be on a Wall of Shame.
@ brad/futuristguy:
This is just the data i’ve been after (although couldn’t articulate it).
Yes, this is of enormous significance because it impacts me as Joanne-Christian in the relative uttermost part of the earth.
Churches and their leaders here, so far away geographically and denominationally, from TGC, T4G, SGM, SBC are yet influenced by them. their influence has been felt by me & my church-attender peers at ground level. A destructive influence.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
I think it’s because the entire group is incestuous. Now why is it so is another question…
Dan from Georgia wrote:
You have something there. I heard statements to this effect whenever I talked to people who had started going to an SGM church, or Mars Hill, or Households of Faith churches. Like they had something new and exciting, like the Church as a whole had gone astray, and their new church had somehow managed to seek out and find the right path.
Yeah, I know, it’s a hallmark of those who have gone before, like Joseph Smith and Jim Jones of the People’s Temple, just to name a couple of them. Add Mahaney, the Harrises, and Driscoll to the ever-growing list of enablers who help “shipwreck the faith.”
Max wrote:
Jared Wilson notes in the article: “There are some names included that some (most?) of us in the tribe might wish to distance ourselves from now. And yet their influence is still, for better or worse, part of what has made the tribe what it is.”
Apparently C.J. Mahaney is not one that they want to distance themselves from, as shown by having him speak at T4G conferences.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
For those interested in learning more about dynamics in an “industrial complex,” I wrote a five-part series of posts in 2014 that covers where the term came from, what kinds of dynamics are used to start it up and keep it going, etc.
The concept becomes ever more relevant as we talk more these days about “systemic abuse” — which is really a type of industrial complex where a network or system that’s set up to benefit (and protect) the few ends up being toxic to the many.
https://futuristguy.wordpress.com/2014/10/05/deconstructing-the-christian-industrial-complex-part-1/
Mercy wrote:
I have just been randomly reminded of a snippet from the teaching that tried to make an equivalence between family dynamics (hierarchy) and the Trinity. Father… Son… and the Holy Spirit relegated to the mother’s position.
Hmmm. Is that why the Holy Spirit is venerated in words (given lip service, but no real respect in any way that matters) by that crowd, but basically shoved to the back and ignored?
@ brad/futuristguy:
Also, Doug Wilson is on that list. When I see that name, it is all over.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
“There are some names included that some (most?) of us in the tribe might wish to distance ourselves from now. And yet their influence is still, for better or worse, part of what has made the tribe what it is.” (Jared Wilson)
Oh brother, and do we know what it is!
“None of the people on this list is more or less important than anybody else.” (Jared Wilson)
Then why put Piper in the #1 spot?
Or how about Carson and Keller in the top-10; did being founders of TGC influence your pick of influencers?
Lecrae?!
Ed Stetzer – thank you for confirming that the young reformers credit him with success of the movement – he’s been a theological chameleon, hard to pin down
Whew! There’s a lot of “history” with the “Big 125” … agonizing to scroll through.
Jared, you are far too humble. Thus, the Wartburgers will have to do it for you … we declare you #126!
Oh, wait a minute, you left out Jesus! I would consider Him the Main Man in the Gospel-Centered Movement … the real one, that is.
@ at least I’m sort of out:
(hug)
brad/futuristguy wrote:
I just scrolled through the list again. To borrow a line from Piper, some of these folks need to endure verbal abuse for a season, and endure perhaps being smacked one night.
Max wrote:
I assumed when he wrote the article that he humbly anticipated someone correcting the omission.
elastigirl wrote:
i.e. He came CHEAP.
Should have held out for Wales, like in The Man for All Seasons…
Darlene. wrote:
Remember Nazis & Communists?
Total opposite (and mutually hostile) ideologies, Identical abuse of their people?
Darlene. wrote:
Proper Semantics, My Dear Wormwood.
Max wrote:
“You don’t need any intellect to be an Intellectual.”
— G.K.Chesterton, one of the Father Brown Mysteries
“There are ideas so stupid that only an Intellectual could possibly believe them.”
— George Orwell
Darlene. wrote:
In the words of the prophet Pink Floyd:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0kcet4aPpQ
Max wrote:
A statement I’ll bet Piper regrets making, but a statement that I have no doubt reflects his real beliefs. He only later came out with a sanitized version because of the negative backlash.
Ricco wrote:
There is something seriously wrong that that guy is acceptable to them…if nothing else makes you question their judgment that alone should!
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
It is my uneducated ‘guess’ that victims created to produce blackmail is what is behind the flood of abuse victims currently coming out of the woodwork. All of the much bally-hood evidence on ritual abuse suggests that at its heart, beyond the sick perversion, is often blackmail. These abuses often involve photos and other extortionable evidence, which comes in very handy when in the ‘right’ – or should I say ‘wrong’? – hands. I find it difficult to imagine that all of these powerful and controlling individuals just ‘happened’ to be lecherous, abusive perverts – with hidden cameras. I believe it would be naive to insist this does not happen in religious power structures as well as political, entertainment and media.
Ricco wrote:
Yep. And how could he leave out the other two amigos from the Pyro blog? Frank Turk and Dan Phillips.
Lea wrote:
Wilson is that Crazy Uncle in the Neo-Cal Movement. You might be a bit off-taken with the guy, but ya gotta still embrace him, idiosyncrasies and all. He is, after all, still a member of the family.
Darlene. wrote:
Hopefully you’re just being sarcastic/parodying, otherwise it’s Poe’s Law in action.
I would suggest from personal experience that Mr Wilson is far more than just some “Crazy Uncle” of the Neo-Calvinist movement.
I lived in Pullman, WA/Moscow, ID for a total of 15 years during the early period of his “ministry.” Multiple personal friends of mine experienced harm from the influence of Community Christian Ministries under the teachings of Jim and Doug Wilson. I witnessed some of the abuse inflicted on the community there. It was noted even that far back, in the early 1970s to mid-1980s.
We are talking about something far more toxic than “idiosyncrasies.” But then, maybe “quirks” would be how the writer of the Influencers list and others on it would view Mr Wilson …
___
“The Last Proverbial Straw, Perhaps?”
hmmm…
For over six years and a half years, it has been reported that over one hundred national religious leaders have been complicit, aiding and collaborating in the corruption that is systemic in the religious 501(c)3 Institution called Sovereign Grace Ministries/Sovereign Grace Church’s. (SGM/SGC) Not only as it pertains to the refusal to come forward to report sexual abuse of children, (and others) but also as it pertains to other grievous patterns of questionable behavior that has continually harmed and injured thousands of individuals, forcing those injured to seek shelter and safe harbor outside the confines of the established U.S. 501(c)3 religious establishment.
It is now quite evident that an U.S. Supreme Court ‘decision/ruling’ for mandatory sexual abuse reporting by the U.S. 501(c)3 clergy is required.
No if’s or’s or but’s…
#AmericaManUp!
ATB
Sòpy
___
Psalm 23
;~)
– –
Denhollander Speaks Out Again in Response to Condemnation by Sovereign Grace Churches, Inc. – I’ve Added Background Commentary
February 7, 2018
Brent Detwiler
http://abrentdetwiler.squarespace.com/brentdetwilercom/denhollander-speaks-out-again-in-response-to-condemnation-by.html
do you know what is really interesting and I wish i had kept it… but I’m pretty sure it was T4G sent out an email before one of their conferences… I think the 2016, basically telling the pastors/attendees to behave morally while they were away from home as they are a witness of the gospel (but in a more subtle way)… I believe it was in recognition that porn and prostitution use increase when pastor’s conferences are in town… and an attempt to minimize that “witness”… does anyone else remember this?
@ Max:
trials and hardships do grow us and mature us, and that includes in endurance and perseverance… so if the leaders keep resisting, the stronger and more bold we grow… 😉 we are not going away, as so many leaders had hoped this whole #metoo/#churchtoo would blow over after a while… if it’s the Lord, and I believe it is, He’s cleaning His house… passion/zeal for Your house has consumed me!
refugee wrote:
This heresy is exactly what Wayne Grudem advocates in his Systematic Theology. It’s in the section on the Trinity. His Systematic Theolgy is favored among the YRRs. I suppose they want a Holy Spirit who is seen and not heard.
Jerome wrote:
He should have called for a financial audit rather than gush praise. It’s the opposite extreme of a vow of poverty for clergy.
@ Ken F (aka Tweed): Ken, thank for this link… I posted the following comment in response, we will see if it stays or not… BOQ:
Thank God, He left us with the gift of discernment through the power of His Holy Spirit living in us, and that is for the priesthood of ALL believers… we are not to quench His Spirit… and well, sadly the case for many in the Church has been the sacred trust has been seriously violated by leaders and power has been abused far too often to cover up ungodly scandals in the Church along with other reasons… the Catholic church is the notorious example of that type of cover up of course… and why do we/protestants think we are exempt? do you really think leaders are going to expose abuse of power, something that has been kind of a convenient MO, protecting them for decades? From my experience, leaders far too often protect themselves at the expense of others… very, very sad and very, very unbiblical.. the exact opposite of what leaders are called to be… servant leaders… and well, people can forgive, but that does not restore the violated sacred trust… only action by the leaders can restore that… and their refusal to do anything that would restore that trust will only further eroted that trust… people will no longer be deceived with empty words… they’ve heard far too many that sound good, but never happen… and this grieves the heart of God! so people of God, please use your God given discernment! EOQ
Bev wrote:
It doesn’t look like it stayed – your comment does not show up under that article. Good try, but I am not surprised. Most of the YRR sites have discontinued comments. They can dish it out but can’t take it.
Max wrote:
Someone needs to warn me beforehand so I don’t spit my coffee all over my phone!!!
Touché!
What is incredible about Jareds list is that even though it overlaps so tightly with those complicit with SGM/C.J. sex abuse scandal… aside from those abuse enablers and supporters of this particular scandal, this list is a has a bunch of unrelated scandals.
Mark Driscoll left such a bad trail of carnage including a whole survivor blog / community dedicated to healing from him. Buying his way on the new york Times… threatening to physically go after people in his sermons. He was so vile!!
Doug Wilson encouraging the pedophile in his church.
Matt Chandlers church also supporting the pedophile and horrible church discipline.
Lots of guys on this are staff at the same chuch as Larry Cotton, (The Austin Stone Community Church), … he got put on leave for covering up for Andy Savage when he was youth pastor sexually abusing a teen in his care.
Tullian Tchividjian another clergy sexual abuse scenario… also covered up by other leaders who knew.
These are some of the guys *not* connected to SGM dysfunction.
This list is a “who’se-who” of spiritual abusers and their enablers with very few exceptions.
Gail wrote:
Yep, the New Calvinist movement provides lots of fodder for the watchblogs?! There are so many men in leadership roles within the new reformation who just don’t need to be there. You would think by now that their followers would be getting over idol worship and move on.
___
“SGM/SGC: Perverters Of The Lord’s ‘Table’, Perhsps?
hmmm…
—-> Only the ‘penitent’ man may pass, and not their prolifera of victim(s)?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NkGTyndJC1w
huh?
Q. How can their be an SGM/SGC ‘cover-up’ when Maryland state law has had no mandatory reporting law for the 501(c)3 clergy?
What?
Sure, there was not in the past and there is presently no clergy requirement in Maryland to report sexual abuse to law enforcement officers. Only ‘clergy-penitent privilege’ ™ is presently in force. (1)
What does that have to do with the high price of SGM/SGC admission?
SKreeeeeeeeeeeetch
A Lot.
If not one single Maryland state law had ever been broken or violated, and there had never been one single legal mandate to call law enforcement on sexual offender(s) (FYI: there were at least twenty necessary reporting opportunities ‘known of’), there would still be some twenty-five to thirty years of nefarious activities of these false so called apostles, within an fully documented controlling shepherding movement, and this in addition to their top down, heavy handed authoritarian ‘wrongs’ handed down by POD/PDI/SGM/SGC clergy over the years…
(sadface)
*
♪♩♪♩ hum, hum, hum …sending out an S.O.S. sending out an S.O.S. sending out an S.O.S. sending out an S.O.S. …
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GZuDPONddPE
*
Brent Detwiler and many others have been tracking C.J. Mahaney’s and his mega-morphing 501(c)3 religious POD/PDI/SGM/SGC organization’s abuses of power (in all forms, from petty in-fighting to blackmail to obscene vacations to the alleged twenty times or so they ‘internally’ invoked the Maryland ‘clergy-penitent privilege’ ™ there by ‘effectively’ covering-up sexual abuse for over thirty years.
The following series of documents on the subject are well worth the read:
https://www.scribd.com/user/86813507/sgmwikileaks
http://www.brentdetwiler.com/the-documents/
http://www.thefullwiki.org/Sovereign_Grace_Ministries
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/transcripts/
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/the-stories/
*
ATB
Sòpy
—
(1) ‘Clergy-Penitent Privilege’
http://dhr.maryland.gov/child-protective-services/reporting-suspected-child-abuse-or-neglect/mandated-reporters/
https://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.nasw-md.org/resource/resmgr/imported/child%20abuse%20reporting%20checklist.pdf
https://www.childwelfare.gov/pubPDFs/clergymandated.pdf
;~)
– –
#likeagirl Rachel is a gift to the church. I pray for her!
@ refugee:
Thanks, refugee
Gail wrote:
Mission accomplished!
Speaking of missions, I have a feeling that God is getting close to pushing the red button on this gang of New Calvinist leaders.
Jerome wrote:
I worked at PDI/SGM for three years and assisted with many conferences, including several Leadership Conferences held in Hunt Valley MD. I assure you, it’s not hype, the description above. The costs for all those welcome baskets were part of the conference budget, of course. The incestuous exchange of flattery in the form of money (donations and/or conference registration fees), public praise, book blurbs, speaking or “preaching” at each others’ churches, etc., etc., etc is mind-boggling. That’s why many of them show up on Jared’s list. Another form of flattery. You scratch my back, I’ll remain silent when you’re accused of conspiring to cover up years of abuse.
Max wrote:
As long as it doesn’t involve the collateral damage of pushing the nuclear button for real.
I’m a survivor of Christians For Nuclear War.
“GOD’S JUDGMENT FOR AMERICA’S SINS SITS READY AND WAITING IN THE NUCLEAR MISSILE SILOS OF THE SOVIET UNION!!!!!”
— Late Cold War-period radio preacher
Jen C wrote:
NO DOUBT but ye are the People—your throne is above the King’s.
Whoso speaks in your presence must say acceptable things:
Bowing the head in worship, bending the knee in fear—
Bringing the word well smoothen—such as a King should hear.
— Rudyard Kipling, “The Islanders” (1902)
I just watched the cbs Parents interview today and am sickened by it! The one mother who says she is a nurse and questioned while she watched him abuse her, then hears her daughter say she is never going back then has the nerve to say he talked her daughter into going back to him. SHAME on her. She knew at a deep level what was going on and fame was more important! As a person who was victimized as a very young child and who has been a counselor to many sex abuse victims I can say that a lot of parents do know what is going on or at least suspicion it and do nothing for what ever reason they have. Look at the faces of the girls when their parents talk. Their expressions tell it all. I KNOW there are innocent parents who honestly knew nothing of the sexual abuse to their child but I am sickened by the excuse that the doctor talked her daughter into coming back to him. Cheap shot to your kid lady!
Sorry, I don’t know of another forum that I can share this with so bare with me. Another mother said we should teach our children how to say I am uncomfortable with this stop, and she believed her 13 year old could possibly have stopped the abuse. What about the adult parents that were uncomfortable with what was going on? Why did they not say those words themselves? Is it conceivable that an innocent child that has been thought to trust and obey adults would be stronger then her own parents in this matter? I am sure there are some parents in this case that are innocent. I am convinced there are many that are just as guilty as the staff that allowed the abuse to continue. I am deeply saddened for the girls who have realized this themselves.
@ brad/futuristguy:
Brad: My comments about Doug Wilson were tongue in cheek and sarcastic in nature. ‘Idiosyncracies’ is how the New Calvinists must regard Wilson’s misdeeds and misconduct. Those of us who see behind the Doug facade recognize he is a dangerous and immoral man using religion to prop himself up.
Jen C wrote:
Interesting. I lived in that area for my first year after graduating from college.
Darlene. wrote:
Thanks for letting me know, Darlene … I thought that’s probably what it was, but some of what happened in Pullman and Moscow can *still* unexpectedly trigger emotional rushes when people reference Jim or Doug Wilson — even 30+ years later. You’d think after so long, that wouldn’t happen any more … but there it is.
@ Jen C:
so, when you were an SGM employee, what was the understanding amongst of staff as to the reasoning behind all the lavishness in perks, gifts, food displays associated with conferences?
going the extra mile in excellence?
seems clear now that chief decision-makers were seeking to manipulate — but how did it come across at the time to staff carrying it all out?
Jen C wrote:
An insider’s confirmation of what many of us have sensed for years. These guys are taking the church for a ride … all the way to the bank.
Definitely a real live superhero. I’m sure she doesn’t feel like it, but many of us are admiring the courage and spirit of Christ that shines through her so brightly. It is heartbreaking what these girls have all gone through. May the Lord be glorified in her and this evil stopped through the work he is doing through her.
Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
One worthy of Tom Cruise’s reception at the Scientology Celebrity Center, and for much the same reason.
“If you want to make a million dollars, Start Your Own Religion!”
— L Ron Hubbard, at a WorldCon before Dianetics first came out
Meagan Beth wrote:
Hello Meagan,
Thank you for your inquiry. I am sorry I can not help you in this instance however because this is not a LifeWay event.
We are one of the sponsors of the event, but we are not in charge of decisions regarding the event or its speakers.
I am sorry to not be of more assistance in this matter.
In Him,
Paige Clayton Greene
Director of Adult Live Events
LifeWay Church Resources
One LifeWay Plaza, MSN 147
Nashville, TN 37234-0147
615-251-3603 direct line
_________________________________________________________________________
But Ms. Greene,
You do acknowledge that Lifeway could pull its sponsorship of this event in a show of solidarity for abuse victims whose allegations against Sovereign Grace Ministries have been ignored and denied by CJ Mahaney and Mark Prater?
You do acknowledge that Lifeway could say, in effect: we won’t sponsor this event unless SGM agrees to allow GRACE (http://www.netgrace.org/) conduct an independent investigation into the claims of all of people who say that their sexual abuse was covered up and not reported by SGM?
Wouldn’t that be Lifeway standing up on behalf of the victims?
Does Lifeway concern itself with Christians who have been injured by leaders in the church?
Sincerely,
Meagan
Meagan Beth wrote:
You might remind Ms. Greene that Lifeway, as an entity of the Southern Baptist Convention, is called to adhere to SBC resolutions adopted at their annual conference. In 2013, the convention delegates approved a resolution “On Sexual Abuse Of Children”:
“We encourage all denominational leaders and employees of the Southern Baptist Convention to utilize the highest sense of discernment in affiliating with groups and or individuals that possess questionable policies and practices in protecting our children from criminal abuse.”
http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/1230/on-sexual-abuse-of-children
Max wrote:
Good point, Max. Will do.
#consequences
@ Jen C:
@ Meagan Beth:
The Southern Baptist pastor who drafted the resolution “On Sexual Abuse of Children” actually had SGM, Al Mohler, and T4G in mind when he drafted that document! TWW had a piece at the time dealing with Pastor Peter Lumpkins’ interview with Janet Mefferd on her radio program.
Lumpkins “explained that it was the second amended complaint against C.J. Mahaney, Sovereign Grace Ministries, et al that compelled him to pen this resolution. Lumpkins called attention to Sovereign Grace Ministries’ recent move to Louisville (where the SBC’s flagship seminary is located) and the unofficial partnerships between Mohler (SBC) and Mahaney (SGM) – particularly with regard to Together for the Gospel.”
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2013/06/19/peter-lumpkins-discusses-resolution-on-child-sex-abuse-with-janet-mefferd/
On Feb 13, 2018 7:22 AM, “Paige Greene” wrote:
Hello Ms. Gee-Henry:
I apologize for the delayed response. Thank you for this message. I wanted to let you know that I have passed this e-mail on to my leadership at LifeWay.
Sincerely,
Paige Greene
_______________________________________________________________________________
Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 11:47 AM
Thank you very much.
And please remind the leadership that LifeWay, as an entity of the Southern Baptist Convention, is called to adhere to SBC resolutions adopted at their annual conference. In 2013, the convention delegates approved a resolution “On Sexual Abuse of Children”:
“We encourage all denominational leaders and employees of the Southern Baptist Convention to utilize the highest sense of discernment in affiliating with groups and or individuals that possess questionable policies and practices in protecting our children from criminal abuse.”
Thank you,
Meagan
Gail wrote:
It’s nice of them to put out a list; it helps to know who to avoid. I’m not sure how Packer got on their list because he seems to think we ought to actually follow the examples of Jesus in the gospels.
@ Meagan Beth:
Meagan, thank you for your attempt to be heard at LifeWay. I’ve been a Southern Baptist for 60+ years. I’m so old, I remember LifeWay’s predecessor: The Baptist Sunday School Board … those were the days before the New Calvinists showed up and started influencing the SBC publishing house. There is a synergistic relationship between the T4G bunch and LifeWay … the New Calvinist tribe buy LifeWay publications.
@ Max:
Max,
I was a member of a Southern Baptist Church for 15+ years. Now, my husband and I attend a Nazarene University for graduate school and conduct our own ministry to the sick and home bound. I will tell you, at seminary, we are not even touching on the issue of defending the weak and standing against oppressors and abusers. Nothing. While we parse the Hebrew and the Greek and nitpick over contextual meaning of Bible verses, the church goes down in flames.
Makes me absolutely crazy. We need more Stephens in the church who go out and get things done for the weak and the forgotten. Of course, the church is notorious for stoning Stephens to death. 🙁
God bless Rachael, WW, and anyone who makes an unpopular stand for truth and righteousness.
Max wrote:
One Hand Washes the Other…
@ Meagan Beth:
Prologue to “Lispeth” by Rudyard Kipling, 1886:
Look, you have cast out Love! What Gods are these
You bid me please?
The Three in One, the One in Three? Not so!
To my own gods I go.
It may be they shall give me greater ease
Than your cold Christ and tangled Trinities.
The Convert.
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Plain_Tales_from_the_Hills/Lispeth