“I hope abusers are listening. They don’t have the power anymore.”
Woman Sitting Alone on a Bench
When it comes to sexual abuse, we believe we are in the midst of a sea change. For far too long sex abuse victims have been silenced and even re-victimized by those who should be caring for them in the wake of a such a horrific experience.
Consider today’s sentencing of Larry Nassar, the former doctor for the U.S. gymnastics team. After more than 150 young women (whom he had victimized) publicly confronted him in court, the judge sentenced him to 40 to 175 years in prison (this is on top of the 60 years he had already been sentenced for pornography). “I just signed your death warrant,” the judge bluntly stated as she imposed the sentence.
Nine years ago as Dee and I were preparing to launch this blog, we were deeply concerned about a ‘family of churches’ called Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM), now known as Sovereign Grace Churches. We had become aware of two websites that chronicled the many problems that plagued SGM. The comments by current and former members of Sovereign Grace churches were especially troubling. It was incredible how many of the commenters claimed to have been sexually abused or had a family member who had been molested.
Not long after launching TWW, we began to focus on sex abuse taking place in Christendom. While it’s terrible enough that it happens in the secular world, there is absolutely no place for sex abuse in the church. And congregations belonging to Sovereign Grace Ministries seemed to be riddled with abuse.
Over the years, we have written quite a few posts about SGM, which was founded by Larry Tomczak and C.J. Mahaney. Tomczak left SGM (then called “People of Destiny” or PDI International), and eventually it became known that he had been blackmailed by Mahaney. But before the secret was revealed, C.J. had developed friendships with some well-known ‘Reformed’ theologians, namely: John MacArthur, R.C. Sproul, John Piper, Ligon Duncan, D.A. Carson, Mark Dever, Al Mohler, and the list goes on… As those who have been hurt in SGM have come forward, these theologians have staunchly defended Mahaney, who will be speaking once again at the upcoming Together or the Gospel (T4G) conference.
We believe the tipping point for Sovereign Grace Ministries came when Brent Detwiler, once one of the key leaders in SGM, sent extensive documentation to Sovereign Grace pastors detailing Mahaney’s “pride, unentreatability, deceit, sinful judgment, and hypocrisy.” He was also accused of a heavyhanded rule.”
It was at this point that the Ambassadors of Reconciliation (AoR) were hired by SGM’s Board of Directors. Over a period of months they met with those who had been hurt in Sovereign Grace churches, and they conducted training sessions. The culmination of their findings was published in a 39-page Report to the Directors of Sovereign Grace Ministries (April 10, 2012).
Here are excerpts from the AoR report that stood out to us. (see screen shots below)
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In hindsight, it’s apparent that the Ambassadors of Reconciliation had no interest in addressing sex abuse allegations in SGM. As stated in the report, those matters involved expertise beyond the scope of their Group Reconciliation Assistance. We doubt this was divulged during the interview process.
Several years later, The Washingtonian published an eye-opening article about Covenant Life Church (CLC), where C.J. Mahaney had pastored for 27 years. CLC had also been the flagship church of SGM. To read this eye-opening article, click on the link below.
The Sex Abuse Scandal That Devastated a Suburban Megachurch
Before the above article became available on the internet, I (Deb) was able to access it and discuss the highlights in a post entitled Remembering SGM Survivors.
TIME Magazine interviewed the reporter who wrote this The Washingtonian article and published the following piece:
Inside the Investigation into Child Sex Abuse at Sovereign Grace Ministries
In the wake of the AoR investigation, the number of churches in the Sovereign Grace network has declined. No doubt they are hoping to do more ‘church planting’ since they will be highly visible at the upcoming T4G conference.
We can’t help but wonder what would have happened with regard to SGM if the sex abuse allegations that were being shared by SGMers a decade or so ago were being revealed now, given the sea change that is occurring.
We have never forgotten those who were hurt in Sovereign Grace Ministries, and we continue to pray for their emotional and spiritual healing, as well as their restoration. Over the years, Dee and I have had the privilege of meeting some of the SGM victims and/or their parents. For our readers who may not have been following our blog when SGM was a hot topic of discussion, we thought we would share what happened to the children of “Happymom” and “Wallace”. We first published their testimony back in 2011 (shared by Wallace), and we have since gotten to know this amazing couple. This family’s tragic story will give you some idea of what those who were hurt in SGM had to endure. It is included in its entirety below.
The Gospel Coalition: CJ Mahaney Is Adored While Pain Continues in Sovereign Grace Ministries
Wallace’s Testimony
To blog critics and all others who assert that bringing these issues to the light somehow undermines or weakens the cause of Christ, we would say the behavior of some in the leadership of Sovereign Grace Ministries does far more damage to victims of abuse and to a watching world.
We share our story with the hope that those with similar experiences will be encouraged to write their own and bring it to the light.
My wife posted numerous times on the Survivor blog under the name “Happymom.”
We left the SGM Fairfax church in May 2007 because of the overbearing emphasis on personal sin and the cross.
During 12 years as members of the Fairfax church, two of our children were sexually molested by two different people who attended the church. The molestations did not occur on church property. We had completely forgiven the perpetrators. However, the subsequent mental and spiritual anguish we endured both times in dealing with members of the Fairfax staff motivate us to write and “tell it to the church.”
Here is a brief description of how Fairfax has in the past typically handled sex abuse issues in their church. This depiction can be affirmed by numerous former members who have had similar experiences. The perpetrator of a sex crime and his family were brought under the care of a pastor. This would involve counseling, accountability sessions and possible minor restrictions regarding movement in the church during services. People “at risk” were not notified. The victim and victim’s family, however, were usually confronted with opposition from leadership by minimizing and/or invalidating particular aspects of the victim’s story.
In 1998, we discovered our child; (child-A) had been molested by a young man attending the Fairfax church. We did not press charges and regretted this later on. The father of the young man was initially uncooperative in dealing with the situation until Steve Shank stepped in to handle it. This took place during the time frame Benny Phillips was stepping down from leadership. Steve Shank addressed our sin and asked the young man to apologize.
We forgave him; however, with minor restrictions imposed by the staff, he continued to intimidate our child during Sunday services to the point where our child was fearful of going to church. The pastors involved had little to say concerning this as it didn’t appear to be a priority for them.
In October 2007, we discovered that child-B had been molested. The molestation occurred 5 years earlier. Our child revealed to us what had happened only after being hospitalized 7 days for cutting and suicidal thoughts. We eventually found out through our child’s counseling sessions that fear and shame were the two main elements for not telling us about this sooner. Cutting was our child’s way of dealing with misguided guilt and self-loathing.
We then contacted the Police Department and pressed charges. The detective assigned to the case came to the house and listened to our child’s story. The young man confessed the crime to pastor SW (CJ’s son-in-law).
We were given the impression that pastor DH had also heard the confession. Two and a half years later in March 2010, we were told he did not hear the confession. Pastor LG (our brother-in-law) was also in the loop as we had asked him to supply information requested by the detective, but no information was given. Pastor LG said to me, “Have them send the request to us in writing.” The detective told us later on that Fairfax had been “uncooperative” in the investigation…. a fact they later denied.
During the investigation, pastor DH told us they “had a dilemma” because they were caring for the young man and his family. There was no visible concern shown during this time for our child by the staff including our brother-in-law and his family. No inquiring phone calls or emails. Our child had just been discharged from the hospital. When you leave an SGM church for disagreeing with or challenging leadership in any way, all relationships you once had there are severed.
Sometime during the following months, my wife noticed her sister, (wife of pastor LG) not speaking about anything associated with our child’s legal case. She would consistently change the subject when our child was mentioned. This led to a meeting we initiated with pastor LG in January 2008. As no other logical explanation for the silence could be seen, we asked him 3 times if he had advised his wife not to discuss with her sister our child’s case. Three times he answered “No”. We were told in a future meeting by pastor VH that pastor LG was, in fact, legally instructed to inform his wife not to discuss the case with her sister for two days so that the police could complete their investigation. When this was brought up to the leadership, our questions were ignored. Pastor LG lied to us and was not held accountable.
As a result of our own research, we became aware of the fact that pastor LG’s wife was not covered under Virginia’s clergy privilege statute. According to the legal process, she could have been liable for any information she had regarding the case, and therefore could have been called to testify in court on our child’s behalf. Pastor LG (our child’s uncle) put great effort into avoiding this possibility. The truth is that this scenario presented a conflict of interest to pastor LG and members of the Fairfax staff as they were caring for the young man and his family, as pastor DH had mentioned. Exactly why this presented a conflict is a mystery.
The trial took place in March 2008. Prior to the trial, not knowing how the young man would plead, we asked pastor DH to come with pastor SW ready to give testimony on our child’s behalf, if needed. Pastor DH made it known to us that they were not coming to the courthouse. I explained to him if the young man pleaded not guilty, our child would then have to get up in front of the court and reveal the entire ordeal, along with answering questions from the attorneys. It didn’t matter; they still weren’t coming. His response to us was: “I have my church’s reputation to consider.” Not sure what pastor DH meant by this statement. In a future meeting with the Fairfax pastors, he claimed not remembering making the “church’s reputation” statement and had no recollection of emphasizing the fact that he wasn’t coming to the courthouse.
I called the detective and asked her to issue a subpoena for both pastors to appear in court. Fairfax would later claim there was no need for us to request a subpoena because one had been issued months before. It wouldn’t have made any difference if we knew this information or not. Pastor DH expressed to us they weren’t coming. They also stated in a future meeting they knew the young man would plead guilty; therefore, coming to the courthouse wasn’t necessary. In reality, there was no way of knowing how he would plead. Nevertheless, it was put back on us.
Pastor’s DH and SW were at the courthouse for the trial. Pastor LG came a few minutes before the trial and left. His wife did not come. She also didn’t make any attempts to call her sister during the days leading up to the trial. My wife was abandoned by her family. The young man pleaded guilty to a felony.…. Our child did not have to get up and speak to the court.
A short time after the trial, my wife attempted to communicate to her sister the hurt, frustration and lack of care she experienced from her sister and family, and it was put back on my wife.
What followed during the next two years included a series of meetings, phone calls and emails involving Fairfax and Covenant Life leadership, two mediators, and an SGM pastor from South Carolina.
In December 2008, our child (child-A), now 18 at the time, was greatly affected by Noel’s story after reading it on the blogs. Our adult child contacted CJ Mahaney and asked him what SGM had to say about this. Not sure what the response was, however, our adult child also described to CJ what our family had endured from the Fairfax staff and as a result a meeting was arranged.
We met with CJ and he listened to our story. He was grieved by our experience and asked permission to contact the Fairfax staff. We asked him if he had any knowledge of our story. He said he did not. Over the next few weeks we received emails from him, thanking us for the opportunity to talk with us. He assured us that the Fairfax staff desired to meet and discuss these important issues with us.
In February 2009, the first meeting was set up at our church with 5 pastors from the Fairfax church, CJ, and a neutral third party attending on our behalf. Two days before the meeting, pastor LG appeared at our door wanting to apologize to our child. We had not seen nor heard from him or his family for 11 months. We asked him what specifically he wanted to apologize for and couldn’t get a straight answer. He wouldn’t answer our questions. Given the state of emotional torment of our child and to block any further confusion, we decided it would not have been in our child’s best interest and said no.
During the meeting, the pastors apologized for not caring for us and poor leadership but avoided our questions. We left the meeting confused and with a new list of questions. A few days later we discover CJ had given our neutral third party a check for 5,000.00……
A short time after, CJ urged us to begin meeting with pastor MM to iron out our difficulties with pastor LG and his family.
It is important to mention here that although we agreed to meet with pastor MM, we were well aware of Fairfax’s intentions to separate the mishandled sex abuse issue from the personal concerns we had with Pastor LG. The opportunity to minimize the situation to a “family disagreement” had presented itself. They could now step away from the spotlight of “sex abuse issues in the Fairfax church and the way leadership typically responds,” and let the light shine elsewhere.
A number of unresolved issues with pastor LG going back many years still remain, some of which are extremely painful for my wife and me. However, in March 2009, we began meeting with pastor MM with hopes of seeing some accountability leading to possible reconciliation with pastor LG. We presented pastor MM with a list of questions for pastor LG. After 4 months of meetings and numerous emails, none of our questions were answered. However, one hard question was answered; my wife asked pastor MM why they do not warn people at risk when a known sex felon is in their church. His response was, “that perpetrator could grow up and sue us for defamation of character.” So in pastor MM’s mind, the possibility of being sued sometime in the future takes precedence over protecting children from known sex offenders. At the final meeting pastor MM said to us, “I find pastor LG to be a man of integrity.” And then he dismissed us. (Simple logic would say, if pastor LG is a man of integrity, we must be liars) We were stunned….Fairfax had once again put the issue back on us.
In a future meeting with the pastors, pastor MM apologized for not answering our questions concerning pastor LG ….but still didn’t answer them.
We contacted CJ and expressed our dissatisfaction with the meetings and final conclusion. He suggested Peacemakers. We declined. He then offered to have SGM pastor JB from South Carolina step into the arena. Our options were diminishing, but we were not going to walk away from this. For the next 8 months we spoke to pastor JB on the phone at least twice a month. Our conversations focused on the “family disagreement” and Fairfax’s response to sex abuse. We had many questions regarding both topics — questions that had already been asked a number of times and not answered. During our many conversations with Pastor JB, he assured us that Fairfax would now be handling sex abuse related issues differently. After 8 months our questions for pastor LG and a few hard questions for Fairfax were still not answered.
In March 2010, a second meeting with Fairfax leadership had taken place. Kenneth Maresco, Pastor JB, and Jim P, moderator for the SGM Refuge blog were also present. We requested that pastor LG attend as well, but he declined. When questioned about this beforehand, pastor LG said, “I do not think my presence in the meeting would be helpful.” And Fairfax backed him up on this. The meeting was arranged in part as a follow-up from our time on the phone with pastor JB. Some of our questions were answered; however, a few of pastor JB’s answers had suggested that everything was just a big misunderstanding — that somehow we misinterpreted or perhaps judged motives incorrectly regarding both pastor LG and the Fairfax staff. Also in this meeting pastor DH forgot important information and pastor VH revealed that pastor LG was, in fact, legally advised by their attorneys back in October 2007. But in the January 2008 meeting (as mentioned above), pastor LG told us 3 times that he did not tell his wife not to discuss our child’s case with her sister. And Fairfax was ok with this.
In the same meeting the pastors would not let us ask any questions related to pastor LG. It appeared they did not want to deal with the fact that he had lied to us. However, they did want to apologize a second time for not caring for us and for poor leadership. We accepted their apologies but there were still unanswered questions.
An obvious pattern can be seen throughout the story; the pastors were eager to apologize for not caring for us and poor leadership expecting us to forgive, but they would not answer our hard questions. And for some reason they were protecting pastor LG from having to account for the issues we presented. Our forgiveness was premature.
In May 2010, we accused pastor LG of lying, specifically but not limited to the January 2008 meeting we had with him, and two consecutive apology letters he had written that were filled with deceptive statements. This led to an “accusation against an elder”. Fairfax’s solution to this was to hire an outside third party mediator to settle things — a professional conciliatory Christian mediator. He was thoroughly impressed with the fact that CJ Mahaney was involved with this. We reluctantly agreed to do it and had regrets later on. I challenged Fairfax to show us where in the Bible do we find that an accusation against an elder is brought to an outside mediator who gets paid for his services. They ignored the question. They were steadfast in maintaining that the struggles we had with the church and pastor LG stay separate and confined to a “family disagreement”. The reality is that Fairfax had relinquished their responsibility in dealing with an accusation against an elder so they could walk away from the entire situation. Maybe they were afraid of uncovering pastor LG’s pattern of deception. We had two sessions totaling 9 hours in which pastor LG persisted in avoiding our questions and claimed not remembering key facts. The mediator’s summation at the end was that pastor LG had not been deceptive and that we were “sinfully craving answers” according to James chapter 4. We were put in the same category as murderers and idolaters!
How did we end up here?
We started out down this road as parents of two children who were molested and ended up being thrown into the ring with murderers and idolaters!
Only SGM could orchestrate something like this…..
Fairfax was indifferent to the fact that we disagreed with the mediator’s conclusions.
In June 2010, we had our 3rd and final meeting with Fairfax, initiated by Kenneth Maresco and pastor JB as a follow-up to the March 2010 meeting. Kenneth Maresco was not happy with the pastor’s apologies in the March meeting. Apparently, they needed to be a little more sincere. They were given the opportunity to apologize once again for the same things they had previously apologized for, not caring for us and poor leadership, but this time the apologies were more detailed.
A short time after the meeting, our final interaction with SGM was at hand. As a last ditch attempt to at least work out our family difficulties, I asked pastor LG if he would agree to meet with us and another SG pastor. He said, “That ain’t happening.” And Fairfax backed him up on this. We wanted a person he worked with to witness his response to our questions. We asked CJ, Kenneth Maresco, and pastor VH to intervene and be the witness, and they all declined.
Pastor LG’s evasive behavior, supported by a shield of protection from Fairfax, is a symptom of a much deeper problem in their governmental structure…
The Fairfax church has a history of treating victims of sex abuse and their families in similar ways mentioned in our story. We know two other cases and have talked with someone who mentioned knowing FIVE… all involving the Fairfax church. Noel and Grizzly were told by pastor MM their story had inconsistencies… “Inconsistency” is an SGM euphemism for lying. What pastor MM really meant to say was Noel and Grizzly were lying.
In the minds of SGM leadership, they hear from God and tell us what God is saying. If what ordinary people discern fails to line up with their program, they are dismissed. This way of thinking allows them to continuously reinforce their spiritual agenda on a congregation conditioned to think they are being truly humble by accepting this. Where in the New Testament do we find this type of church government?
Summary:
- The faith and well-being of child-B had been severely affected by the molestation and 3 year ordeal with SGM. Our child’s professional counselors have documented the adverse affects of family abandonment and how this contributes to thoughts of guilt and shame in a young child’s mind. Our child’s perception of a loving God had been distorted.
- My wife feels the pain of family abandonment plus the abandonment of a church she was a part of for 12 years.
- Child-A is grown up and doing very well.
- For some reason Fairfax had chosen not to deal directly and not dig deeper into the claims we made concerning pastor LG. He was not held accountable for lying to us. Fairfax hired a mediator who ultimately made the decision as to who was lying and who was telling the truth.
- A few of the pastors expressed genuine sorrow for the way our child and my wife and I were treated. Their apologies are nullified because in the end we were the ones “sinfully craving answers” – murderers and idolaters according to the paid mediator’s assessment. We assumed Fairfax was in agreement with this.
- Fairfax would say our questions for pastor LG were answered. Here’s the problem; we weren’t there to hear his answers…. They were now finally able to close the door and move on to more important things.
- The Fairfax staff told us they have made significant changes in the way they now handle sex abuse issues in their church. Assuming this is true, we applaud their efforts.
- The question is how will Fairfax handle their past failures? Will they publicly confess their past sin before our family and the other families who have been hurt by their failure to lead, care, and protect, or will they remain silent and hope no one else comes forward. Will any restitution be made to the families involved?
- In light of the damage done, has anyone involved disqualified themselves from professional ministry?
- The clergy privilege statute exempts church leadership in Virginia from having to divulge any information to the authorities regarding sex crimes committed by church members. We had contacted a Virginia state senator who had been in the process of pursuing legislation to change this law.
- The actions of Fairfax leadership in handling prior sex abuse issues in their church are good examples of why this law needs to be changed. The senator from Virginia heard our story and agreed.
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1?
Different continent, different time zone. now off to read the post
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Nice typo, Deb. Or higher insight.
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Reading this family’s story is really painful. But that is nothing compared to what they have had to endure.
It’s not the bloggers bringing these things to light that are hurting the “cause of Christ”. It’s those who say they are christians and allow these deeds to be done or alow the perpetrators to get away with their crimes by covering them up.
Blogs like this actually are one of the things that allow me to hope that not all is rotten in christianity, that the gates of hell have in fact not prevailed.
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It’s time to retire to bed, but I decided to read TWW first. The actions of the leaders at SGM are appalling and inexcusable. TFG or as you said, Deb, “Together or the Gospel” – has no shame. Inviting C.J. Mahaney to speak at their conference yet again. This action shows they have no regard for victims of sex abuse.
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Second… + GMFS
As a young fundamentalist, I used to bemoan the “so-called Enlightenment” for spreading atheism and ungodliness in the 19th century. But actually, I’ve come to see it differently. It was a vital and necessary check on the power of an ungodly church culture.
We’re in similar territory now, ISTM.
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@ Nick Bulbeck:
Well, I was second when I started writing that, but Darlene got in before me! That’s what happens when I’m trying to follow the tennis, draft an important email, and comment at the same time.
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These churches, and I include Highpoint here, were never the Lord’s from the start. They were founded on false principles by wolves and charlatans. It is no wonder then when they respond this way.
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Wow. And i say again that these churches are not of God. Jesus Himself would walk out and never look back.
I am always sad that good people who love the Lord are conditioned to tolerate this kind of abuse. Their pastors should be arrested, their doors shut.
I’ve been thinking much about Jules this week as i have watched the Nassar situation. Reading this article reminds me that Jules’ story must remain fresh and current. It’s too easy for time to pass allowing other people to forget.
As an aside, I’m so angry i could spit! Time to blow the door wide open and clean out this church swamp.
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Seems CJ and his pals had a hilarious time together yesterday:
https://twitter.com/CJMahaney
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@ Forrest:
@ Mercy:
I totally agree with both of you. These “churches” are all about personal power, control, and profit. The “church” leaders use the name of God for their own personal gain. They twist the Bible, fail the victims, glorify the criminals, and ignore the laws. ……. Makes me beyond angry!
Would they glorify me and ignore the laws if I walked into their churches and vented my anger with a crowbar and a butane torch? Ha!
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@ Jerome:
Yep, they’re laughing all the way to the bank. Make no mistake… T4G is a money-making venture.
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@ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):
@Nancy
I know. Same here.
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@ Nick Bulbeck:
It’s funny. I find myself challenging the ungodly icons of evangelicalism without offering an option. Because honestly, nothing is better than American evangelicalism. Literally, a void, a vast empty space, is better than the evangelical church. God can at least work there.
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Janet wrote:
On the surface that seems like a contradiction. Can you explain a bit more what you are saying?
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Heart breaking. Simply heart breaking. “Sinfully craving answers”. In other words, “we won’t accept accountability”. I am praying for both children.
Anyone who has anything to do with Sovereign Grace should be ashamed. I pray that finally all the celebrities who ignore these stories get exposed and pay the price for their silence and their association with the travesty known as Sovereign Grace. I am ashamed of myself that I ever associated with you.
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Thank you for posting this. As a former SGM’er, I am acutely aware of the devastating effects that C.J., his minions, and this “ministry” have had on people all across this country. I am sickened by the news that C.J. is still being elevated to places of prominence with these evangelical leaders. Shame on you T4G!
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Ken A wrote:
#metoo
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“… C.J. had developed friendships with some well-known ‘Reformed’ theologians, namely: John MacArthur, R.C. Sproul, John Piper, Ligon Duncan, D.A. Carson, Mark Dever, Al Mohler, and the list goes on… As those who have been hurt in SGM have come forward, these theologians have staunchly defended Mahaney, who will be speaking once again at the upcoming Together for the Gospel (T4G) conference.” (Deb)
You really have to stretch the word “theologian” to make Mahaney fit in this gang. I’m not a fan of reformed theology, nor this cast of New Calvinist leaders, but they do have some credibility in their circle of aberrant faith. So why embrace and defend Mahaney? Pay to play?
P.S. Together for the Gospel = Together for Calvinism
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Sorry that previous link got messed up. Here is the one I wanted with the photo of the 4 fiends:
https://thouarttheman.org/2017/08/21/four-hypocritical-friends-mahaney-mohler-duncan-dever/
Deebs, please remove the previous one. Thanks.
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Jerome wrote:
Together for Calvinism, they are laughing all the way to the bank.
As a side-note, I just scrolled through the last several tweets by “Pastor” Mahaney. There’s an important name missing … Jesus! These guys talk more about each other than lifting up the name of Jesus. If you listen to their sermons, the average New Calvinist spends a lot of time talking about “God”, with barely a mention of Jesus, and hardly a word about the Holy Spirit. Indeed, they drop the name of New Calvinist icons more than the precious name of Christ. Strange days in the American church, as our youth fall into the New Calvinist snare.
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Two articles today on abuse at Challies.com. This is one of them
https://discoveringresiliency.com/2018/01/16/5-things-church-enable-abuse/
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I’m posting the link here in case people don’t scroll back a few days regarding the meaning of “pastor” etc.
This is the definition of “clergy” in the State of Texas”
http://texasevidence.com/article-v-privileges/rule-505-communications-to-members-of-the-clergy/
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And this is the nonprofit stuff
http://moorenonprofitlaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/A.-2012-01-Religion-and-Religous-Organizations.pdf
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okrapod wrote:
There’s an old witticism here in the UK regarding a branded over-the-counter painkiller called Anadin (which is basically paracetamol). The advertising slogan for Anadin used to be: “Nothing acts faster than Anadin!”. To which someone came up with the response: Then take nothing instead!.
I think what Janet was saying was similar: that given a choice between American evangelicalism on the one hand, and nothing on the other, you’re better of with nothing.
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@ Nick Bulbeck:
Okay, that makes sense. Thanks.
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Stories like this are so frustrating.
My takeaway, from this and other such abuse cases, is this (which I have stolen from someone I think):
Your first chance is probably your only chance to address abuse correctly. If you do it wrong, the results are devastating.
Related, if your first meeting with pastors is not satisfactory, act then, because it’s not going to get better. Withdraw from the church, tell others (if they might be in danger particularly). They might act after they’ve been exposed, or they might shun you and treat like dirt – in which case they’ve shown you exactly who they are.
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Mercy wrote:
Me too. I read part of Rachael’s statement at JA’s blog this morning and this is relevant to this story, and really every such story we’ve seen, regarding forgiveness:
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Doug R wrote:
That’s just it, they have no shame.
Their god is cruel, petulant, and capricious.
And so are they.
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Again, apologies for referring again to Andy Savage.
His Highpoint bio says that he has a MastersDegree in Christian Studies from Union University. According to the university website, “The 36-credit hour degree can be completed in one to two years. Most MCS courses, whether on one of Union’s campuses or online, are offered in an accelerated eight-week format. They are offered at least once every year.”
https://www.uu.edu/academics/graduate/mcs/
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Lea wrote:
Amen.
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Todd Wilhelm wrote:
What an odd group – they just don’t fit. Mohler with all his books is out of place. The others, well …
All I can figure is that the Fab Four must have a blood pact to stick Together for Calvinism or go down together. I guess they figure that the reformed rebellion depends on all of them.
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Max wrote:
Max, I always think about you making this point when we sing the song “The Lion and the Lamb”: it is clearly talking about the works of Christ but the proper nouns, i.e. “Lord Almighty” and “Our God” seem to avoid naming Him. It creates a definite cognitive dissonance for me.
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After reading the comment about how CJ is returning to T4G again this year, I decided to look up the organization at the EFCA web site. I could not find a listing for either “T4G” or “Together for the Gospel.” While there, I checked on “9 Marks” or “Nine Marks.” That group isn’t there either. I was disappointed, but not terribly surprised. Seeing the T4G guys fancy themselves as the Beatles of New Calvinism (group photos, sold out arenas, stories about modest beginnings among a few friends)–CJ is the funny one!–I would have thought that they would want to reassure their consumers that the organization is on the up and up. After all, “God’s steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or … greedy for gain” (Titus 1:7). Indeed, the call to ministry is a call to “shepherd the flock of God *that is among you* (not at the Yum! Center), exercising oversight … not for shameful gain, but eagerly…” (I Peter 5:2). Has anyone done any investigation into how much money these groups take in and where (or to whom) it goes?
(Tit 1:7 ESV)”
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Max wrote:
I never understand why Mohler, who is paid to lead an SBC institution, is out there promoting other groups. I think the people who pay his salary have a right to expect his attention to be focused on conducting the business of and promoting the seminary.
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Janet wrote:
You are probably not looking for an actual suggestion (this sounds like letting off some steam), but in the off chance that you are unacquainted with sound alternatives…. Have you considered the Lutheran Church (Missouri Synod)? I have no stake in it–I’m a Presbyterian. But I spent a couple of years in a Luther Church (MS) and found it very satisfying. As far as I could tell, the church did not in any way see itself as an American Evangelical church. The pastor struck me as largely disconnected from the world of Wheaton, Billy Graham, and Christianity Today. It was refreshing!
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Deb wrote:
In the words of the prophet Pink Floyd:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0kcet4aPpQ
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FW Rez wrote:
Here’s something similar I never understood:
During my time in-country, the term “The LORD” (sometimes actually pronounced all-caps with two “O’s) was badly overused to the point it eclipsed all other terms. Just “The Lord, The Lord, the LORD”. Like saying it was the litmus test of being a Born-Again Christian or something.
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FW Rez wrote:
Additional $$$$$ on the side?
(op cit Pink Floyd two comments up.)
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Jerome wrote:
They won big at Fantasy Football (AKA “NFL Owner: the Role-Playing Game”)?
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
You beat me to it, Nick! The same commercial came into my mind immediately. 🙂
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Muff Potter wrote:
I think they are their own god.
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Geoff Smith wrote:
If Janet is not averse to the dreaded “L” word (liberal), she might want to try the ELCA version of Lutheranism.
My last Church was ELCA and I found it satisfying too.
It’s progressive, allows women in the pastorate, and has some great people.
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This whole story was deeply disturbing, and I’m so sorry that you had to experience this. Any faith you have left after this is a miracle, and I’m inspired by your strength in telling your story.
The thing I latched onto was this quote:
“ The mediator’s summation at the end was that pastor LG had not been deceptive and that we were “sinfully craving answers” according to James chapter 4. We were put in the same category as murderers and idolaters!”
I read James 4 and I didn’t see “sinfully cravings answers.” I even read it in the ESV, with is the only correct Gospel(tm) translation (but I digress into sarcasm). More to the point, if you are using the Bible to beat someone down and prop up the strong and push down the weak, YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG. I’m trying to learn how to read all scripture through the lense of Jesus. I’ve come to some VERY different conclusions than what the proof text miners like the Calvinistas say I should believe. We have to try to read these things in context. What is the writer trying to say? Into what context is he writing? How does this line up with Jesus? I used to think truth was a set of propositions. Now, I know Truth is a person who died on the cross for the weak and the oppressed. Jesus did NOT submit to the cross to prop up abuser and their enablers.
Again, blessings for sharing your story and I hope it gives others the courage to stand up and speak the truth in abusive situations. God is never served by our lies.
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The evangelical churches of today would do well to listen to this statement by Rachel Denhollander at the Nassar trial. BTW I read her whole statement and it is EXCELLENT!
Quote from Rachel Denhollander’s victim impact statement: “This is what it looks like when institutions create a culture where a predator can flourish unafraid and unabated and this is what it looks like when people in authority refuse to listen, put friendships in front of the truth, fail to create or enforce proper policy and fail to hold enablers accountable.”
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I don’t understand that either. At one time I started deliberately name-dropping ‘the Lord’s’ anglicized given name into the conversation by actually saying the forbidden word ‘Jesus’ to see what reaction I would get from that. Every time I did it-maybe a dozen or so in the initial experiment- what I got was an awkward moment and nobody but nobody used ‘the name’ even once I had broken the ice. I don’t know what that is.
Here on TWW I asked a non-evangelical who kept saying ‘our Lord’ but never ‘Jesus’ something along that line but hopefully more delicately but I did not get an answer. So it is not just evangelicals who do this, but since one does make a series I just don’t know what is going on.
It is rather a good idea, however, in my opinion to keep saying ‘Jesus’ if that is what one means. It is Jesus who people seem to be uncomfortable with, not some rather removed and unspecified ‘Lord’.
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Muff Potter wrote:
I went liberal and it’s totally fine, but it took a long time away from church before I gave up on southern baptists and this seemed to fit me. So maybe she needs time away too. I think the most important thing is finding a church with good people that won’t try to control you.
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Ricco wrote:
That phrase is so gross. This is all I could find, which based on the ye’s is apparently KJV.
“Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.”
If that’s the right one, pretty sure it doesn’t to never ask anyone a question. That’s just nonsense.
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@ okrapod:
One does not!!! make a series. I type faster than I think. That will get one into trouble quickly.
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Geoff Smith wrote:
I am not able to take the time needed to pursue the question about non-profit relationships and income and etc. However, I thought this subject had come up before on TWW, and sure enough, it did about 2 years ago. Here is the link to a comment with a lot of information about non-profits, EIN (unique non-profit identification number issued by the IRS), etc., from that article about T4G.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2016/04/22/together-for-the-gospel-who-is-really-being-worshipped/#comment-249460
There is a lot of data presented and/or linked to later in that same comment thread, from research done by multiple people. Worth reading and updating, as details may have changed since 2016. Especially look for “Gospel Projects” and “Capitol Hill Baptist Church” and see what you come up with.
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okrapod wrote:
I had a similar experience when discussing the funeral arrangements for my aunt with her pastor. He would only speak of “God” no matter how often I said “Jesus”. A couple of years later he disappeared with another man’s wife.
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Forrest wrote:
You sound as impressed as I am by all that.
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<tangent>
So, yesterday I downloaded PostgreSQL onto the Mac and installed it with a certain amount of
sudo
mucking about, then populated it with a bit of dummy data.Today, I downloaded the JDBC driver, copied it into my JDK folder, and wrote a wee Java class with a noddy SQL statement that just read the bit of dummy data. And it worked first time!
Thing is, this time on Monday I only would’ve understood half of that.
OK, so it’s only one step removed from “Hello world”, but hey – mighty oaks an’ a’ tha’.
#WellChuffed
</tangent>
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@ Nick Bulbeck:
I think Nick is speaking in tongues…
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@ Nick Bulbeck:
It further turns out that the “code” tag works here in Wartburg. (It doesn’t on every blog.)
IOW, if you type <code>Hello, and welcome to Wartburg</code>, it’ll display as
Hello, and welcome to Wartburg
.I’m sure that’ll come in useful. Maybe we could use it for replying to trolls, or something.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
My company decided back in 2002 to build an app with a Java front end and middle tier (we were strictly a Microsoft shop at the time) with a SQL Server back end. Shortly after that, .NET ruled the day for everything but I ended up maintaining this one-off implementation for 15 years.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
So the “code” tag’s should disappear from the quote?
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@ FW Rez:
Yes. WordPress, which powers TWW, interprets an angular bracket as an HTML tag and doesn’t display it unless you use the < ; / > dodge.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Reminds me of one of the things that always bothered me when people would pray aloud. Practically every other word being “Lord” as if they’re afraid they might forget who they’re praying to, or the prayer might go off track or astray, or the deity has a short attention span and has to be brought back to the conversation on s regular basis.
I know it’s petty of me. Sorry.
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While we’re on the subject, quick experiment…
∃
∃
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@ Nick Bulbeck:
Sorry, feel free to ignore that. Or delete it if you have Blog Queen superpowers.
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This is off topic from SGM but not the greater issue of abuse. I read the newest issue of WORLD magazine today. It has a two page article on Andy Savage. It’s very sympathetic to him and conveys his assault as a mistake….but never mentions it as a CRIME nor does it mention the need for reporting it to the police at the time. I don’t know if it’s online…but it made me mad.
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Maybe someone already commented on this but does CJ have a podcast called Ordinary Pastor? I saw that on his twitter page. Honestly, as a former SG member, I couldn’t look any further into it – it was enough for me to go on his twitter account.
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@ Doug R:
“As a former SGM’er, I am acutely aware of the devastating effects that C.J., his minions, and this “ministry” have had on people all across this country.”
+++++++++++++++
i am very sorry.
i am amazed at CJ’s peer group, the degree to which they turn a blind eye. The alternate reality of pretense they have deliberately created for themselves to live in. And how their fan base buys into it.
It’s like they have convinced themselves that the SGM sexual abuse, cover-up, and further damage done to the victims at the hands of SGM leaders didn’t happen. They just go on their merry way…
The denial is breathtaking.
This would be you, TGC The Gospel Coalition, 9Marx, and T4G Together For The Gospel.
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@ Doug R:
“I am acutely aware of the devastating effects that C.J., his minions, and this “ministry” have had on people all across this country.”
++++++++++++++++
There must be a way for you all to tell your story en masse. CJ and his pals have rewritten history for their fan base who have been manipulated to keep silent and believe the propaganda.
your voices need to be heard, loud and clear through the tyranny of silence.
(if you all can bear revisiting it and putting it into words)
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@ Soarin”:
Yes, Soarin. It is put out by SGC. CJ is featured once a month. Jeff Purswell is featured once a month as well.
They just have to get his name out there, most unfortunately.
http://www.sovereigngrace.com/ordinary-pastor-podcast
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FW Rez wrote:
It’s clear that Dr. Mohler’s primary mission in life is to promote New Calvinism both within and without SBC. Southern Seminary is just part of the spoils gathered in by the reformed movement under his leadership. Mainline (non-Calvinist) Southern Baptists have little say in this rebellion as long as national SBC leadership support him. He is the most powerful man in the denomination right now – he’s bullet-proof.
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Just when I think that I am over the effects that Covenant Life Church had on my life, then I read or experience something that brings it back. It’s heart breaking to remember this stuff.
I recently received a letter from my best friend growing up. We have grown somewhat apart over the years, partially because of her very idiosyncratic and solitary personality. She and her family recently moved and she started attending a ministry for people who have been abused. She confessed in the letter that one of her older brothers sexually abused her when she was young. The sadness is real, for her, for the way her family covered it up, the shock that I didn’t know, and the crazy possibility that I could have been a victim. This stuff is crazy.
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@ Abigail:
The article is online. John Piper and Tim Challies are contributors to the magazine, so that explains a lot!
https://world.wng.org/2018/01/once_we_ve_confessed
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okrapod wrote:
Jesus, Name above all names! Most Holy Name of Jesus. Not just Son of God but God the Son. Lord and Savior. Alleluia!
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Lea wrote:
“Won’t try to control you” is the key phrase. I have zero tolerance for control freaks.
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“Sinfully craving answers.” Don’t even get me started.
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Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:
Mission Statement: Biblically objective journalism that informs, educates, and inspires.
Al Mohler is on the board of directors.
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@ Former CLC’er:
I am so sorry for your friend. I pray she can get the help she needs to heal.
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Lea wrote:
My experience with ELCA has been that (no control-freakery), and also with the LCMS wing of Lutheranism.
Thing is, they have a strong central government which does not allow strong-alpha-males with a bent toward control-freakery to seize power and rule as autocrats.
Is the system perfect? Gracious sakes no, but it’s damn side better than having a fundagelical tribal chieftain doing whatever he pleases.
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Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
Strike three!
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@ Muff Potter:
I joined the Presbyterians, so there is a fair bit of procedure and hierarchy. But women at all levels, which I appreciate, and a fairly easy transition imo from baptist.
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@ Ken F (aka Tweed):
Can we talk about how this article calls andy a ‘wolf like shepherd’????? No such thing.
They also call andy getting caught, skipping town, immediately getting another job and not telling the truth to his new church a ‘cautious process’. That article is all kinds of nuts.
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Abigail wrote:
Just read the piece. I hate it when folks taking a defensive posture on behalf of fallen pastors start dragging Paul, Peter, Abraham, Moses, and David into the mess! What the young writer is forgetting is that those men failed ‘before’ the Holy Spirit arrived on the scene. When the Holy Spirit fell on the Church, Paul and Peter were gloriously changed! We should expect no less from men today who have taken on the mantle to represent Christ. Christian leaders (indeed all Christians) are to be led by the Spirit not the flesh, but they must yield to Him and forsake the lusts of the flesh. While the Gospel is all about forgiveness and redemption, there are no examples in the New Testament of pastors who failed morally being restored to the ministry.
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Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
Good Lord! The man is everywhere!!
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@ Max:
Actually the Holy Spirit had fallen on the church before Paul was on the mentioned in Acts. But the Holy Spirit had not fallen on Paul.
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At the bottom of the World piece it says of the author:
“Russell St. John is a graduate of the World Journalism Institute’s mid-career course”
Who is Russell St. John?
Whoever he is, here is what he “graduated” from:
http://www.worldji.com/programs/view/63
5 1/2-day course in Austin, Texas, is for mid-career WORLD readers and/or Centurions who hope to write occasionally for World News Group publications or create news websites in their own communities….The course meets at the Olasky residence
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I gave up on World Magazine eons ago, as they are in it up to their ears, which I saw before I saw through the rest of the rulers of Christendom. I hate to have to point it out, but if you have a name and fame, it is highly unlikely that it is due to taking the high road and/or suffering for the sake of the gospel. When will the true children of God figure out that the institutions of this world have been established to serve the little ‘g’ gods of this world? And yes, that includes the Institutional Church. That’s not to say good people cannot be found within many of these institutions, but, all in all, even if unwittingly, the institutions of men have been established to serve the goals of that which the bible calls ‘Babylon’.
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Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:
Well that says a lot. I’ve never been comfortable with Challies. And Piper, well….no need for words.
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@ Catholic Gate-Crasher:
Jesus, Jesus, Jesus
There’s just something about that name….
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Truthseeker00 wrote:
And all God’s people said “Amen!”
Do you realize how few people really understand this?
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@ Abigail:
” I read the newest issue of WORLD magazine today. It has a two page article on Andy Savage. It’s very sympathetic to him and conveys his assault as a mistake….but never mentions it as a CRIME nor does it mention the need for reporting it to the police at the time.”
+++++++++++++++++++++
it’s to be expected that christians with a mic will be so out of touch with everything outside their enclave, including right wrong and common sense.
(dee and deb are among the few exceptions)
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Jerome wrote:
Ha. The guy who tore this apart mention the copious use of colons, usually incorrectly…this publication which I only heard of yesterday had not impressed me!
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If the Morales testimony, which contradicted Mahaney’s assurances that incidents at SGM churches were historically reported to the police, did not change the minds of Mohler, Dever, and Duncan, nothing short of a grass roots demand by conference goers will.
I suspect after making Mahaney sit out for a year, that was adequate punishment. After that, things returned to normal.
This is the course they have decided to follow.
It is ironic to hear them and people in their sphere speak of the need to address sexual abuse, with Mahaney standing next to them.
I suspect T4G will continue on, and their numbers will be good, though I believe that conference is not what is energizing young, Reformed, evangelicals these days.
The hot topics are what the call “racial reconciliation” and the promotion of immigration and immigrant issues.
The upcoming conference celebrating Martin Luther King’s life, on the date he was assassinated, no less, is the big event this Spring.
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Max wrote:
If we had an ODP we could have quite a discussion about this. I have wrestled with myself as to whether to just move on or whether to comment about this. I have lost that battle with myself, because this is pertinent to the issues at hand. Note please that Christian defenses of the doctrine of the Trinity include evidences of all three persons in the OT. Note what David said in his repentance concerning the Spirit. Note the evidences and arguments about the involvement of the Word and the Spirit in the creation story. It just goes on and on. The prophecy in Joel was about a massive outpouring of the Spirit, not about an introduction of a new God-Person into the world. And note that Jesus in talking to Nicodemus, a ‘teacher of Israel’, assumed that Nicodemus knew about being born of the Spirit, and Jesus kind of ‘jabbed’ him about this.
If we are to talk about forgiveness and restoration or non-restoration we cannot omit the OT evidences nor can we claim exclusive access to the Holy Spirit.
I am not arguing either for or against restoration in any particular case. I am arguing with your argument, and only with that.
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okrapod wrote:
Yes.
IF Andy has been out of ministry for 20 years, done all the right things at the time and since, shown true repentance, maybe we would have a different discussion? But I am beyond tired of these David/Paul/Peter references thrown out to excuse any bad behavior.
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@ Donna D.:
Amen.
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@ Abigail:
” I read the newest issue of WORLD magazine today. It has a two page article on Andy Savage. It’s very sympathetic to him and conveys his assault as a mistake….but never mentions it as a CRIME nor does it mention the need for reporting it to the police at the time.”
+++++++++++++++++++++
elastigirl: “it’s to be expected that christians with a mic will be so out of touch with everything outside their enclave, including right wrong and common sense.
(dee and deb are among the few exceptions)”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
i’ll clarify — it’s to be expected from christian powerbrokers and those beholden to them. (and those in their sway)
and unfortunately tolerated by religious adherents who believe it’s wrong to rock the Godboat. (or like the Godboat too much to rock it)
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Lea wrote:
Agreed! The Paul analogy is especially bad. If Paul had been stoning Christians in his role as apostle, no one would have listened to him. He often told his readers to look at his example, so I think his “ministry” would have been over at that point.
Paul was stoning Christians in his role as a Pharisee. When he met Jesus, he withdrew for 3 years. No one knows exactly what he did during that time. I like to think he needed that time to sort out his thoughts. Then, the disciples did not immediately trust him when he came to Jerusalem.
This is like Andy savage how? I didn’t think so.
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@ okrapod:
This is an interesting post. I definitely don’t claim to understand all of this, but I know there is more going on than the transactional faith I was taught as a young evangelical. Pray the prayer, get the Spirit, go to heaven doesn’t seem to describe life that well for me anymore
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Ricco wrote:
Yes … that’s the point I was trying to make in an upstream comment. Everything changed for Paul on the road to Damascus when he came to grips with who Jesus was and then asked Him what he wanted him to do. In my (perhaps naive) opinion, all Christian leaders should be of that character, as empowered by the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit to overcome the world.
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Ricco wrote:
I used to see more Paul comparisons but now they keep mentioning Peter…maybe people had good arguments for Paul and they switched? Eh.
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@ okrapod:
Max: “…those men failed ‘before’ the Holy Spirit arrived on the scene. When the Holy Spirit fell on the Church, Paul and Peter were gloriously changed! We should expect no less from men today who have taken on the mantle to represent Christ.”
okrapod: “The prophecy in Joel was about a massive outpouring of the Spirit”
++++++++++++++++
honest to God truth: i feel totally let down by how that Joel prophecy has worked out. something didn’t go right.
with few exceptions, in my observation christians are too unimpressive a people group to warrant the general understanding of this massive outpouring of dunamis exposively powerful Holy Spirit.
——
my thought: day of pentecost way back when, holy spirit arrived in a new measure, as available as air. came in with a woosh like wind so people couldn’t help but be impacted.
i think the spiritual climate in the Israel/Judea & environs locale right then was so raw and the new measure of HS so new that the response was big.
in my observation it’s quite the exception now. if the explosive change agent of the holy spirit automatically takes up residence as soon as a person prays the sinner’s prayer, it sure doesn’t amount to much. i mean, just going on general observation here.
i think there’s something amiss, here.
and i think running through the standard christian rigamarol is not all that. (not all it’s cracked up to be)
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Lea wrote:
The New Calvinists talk more about Paul than they do Jesus, and raise Paul’s epistles above the Gospels. The Body of Christ has been expressing concerns about – perhaps the new reformers are toning it down a bit.
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elastigirl wrote:
I have noticed that also.
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” … Al Mohler, and the list goes on … As those who have been hurt in SGM have come forward, these theologians have staunchly defended Mahaney … (Deb)
Al Mohler and SGM were most likely the unnamed subjects of a Southern Baptist resolution approved at the SBC annual meeting in 2013: “On Sexual Abuse of Children.”
“We encourage all denominational leaders and employees of the Southern Baptist Convention to utilize the highest sense of discernment in affiliating with groups and or individuals that possess questionable policies and practices in protecting our children from criminal abuse.”
It appears that Dr. Mohler didn’t equate that with his endorsement of Mahaney and SGM.
http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/1230/on-sexual-abuse-of-children
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@ Max:
And now the church Mahaney pastors has aligned itself with the Southern Baptist Convention.
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elastigirl wrote:
Seen in lives such as …
– the Casper ten Boom family
– George Müller
– Gladys Aylward
– the early ministry of David Wilkerson, how it all ended, I do not know
– etc.
These folks were not recognized in their communities as anything special – except maybe a little off. Yet their legacies are jaw-dropping. They were definitely outliers – not just in the world, but among the religious leadership of their time. Gladys Aylward, for example, was rejected by the mission boards so she went on her own and had an amazing life.
Our Creator God probably has a lot more going on than we know about, as institutions may not recognize the work of God and publicize it.
We may be more in the Day of Elijah (outlier, commoner, wilderness guy) than the Day of David (King with pomp and circumstance and all that stuff).
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@ deb:
One way to legitimize after the fact…
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Doug R wrote:
I agree, Doug.
It is a shameful kick in the face to all the people who were abused by SGM under CJ Mahaney. But if you look at the other speakers, there are a number of other abusers: Matt Chandler, John MacArthur, Albert Mohler, John Piper, and Mark Dever. Birds of a feather flocking together?
I find it deeply worrying that this conference gets such a large attendance. I wouldn’t want anything to do with it.
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Deb wrote:
Yes, and that was handled very quietly by the powers-that-be in Louisville. Why move to Louisville? Where does Mohler live? I suppose there are a lot of SBTS seminary students attending there. Mainline Southern Baptists have become so open-minded about the New Calvinist movement that their brains have fallen out.
http://www.sbc.net/church/2015064333/sovereign-grace-church-of-louisville
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Ian wrote:
Mostly thousands of YRR, energized by the New Calvinist movement, with the chance to sing Kum ba yah en masse once a year, buy the latest books by their icons, and take selfies with the New Calvinist elite. Celebrity worship and cult of personality at its worst. I’m amazed that so many otherwise-intelligent young folks are falling for this. And they are headed for a pulpit near you!
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” … Mahaney, who will be speaking once again at the upcoming Together or the Gospel (T4G) conference …”
I wonder if he will be speaking on humility again?
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Max wrote:
I’m sure it attracts a much wider attendance than YRR. The YRR crowd might relate to people like Chandler and Piper, possibly DeYoung as well. But they’re not known for following Mohler, MacArthur, Duncan, Dever, and Anyabwile. And the music is very tame for YRR – just Bob Kauflin (CJ’s BFF) on piano. Because of its close ties to TGC, it is part of the establishment and effectively claims to define mainstream evangelical orthodoxy. That’s why it is so disturbing.
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@ JYJames:
Yes, indeed — they are remarkable people who did remarkable things with their lives, with God as their help. surely Holy Spirit was their power source. and truly, it takes power to do the quiet things like be patient, sacrifice for others, and all sorts of risk-taking with returns that don’t get noticed.
i am bothered that these things are so exceptional. why aren’t they the norm? well, i think i know the answer in part — the over-riding objective for a church is to pay the salaries and bills. consequently, members and attenders have to be kept happy and comfortable. by all means, nothing radical.
or, “radical” redefined in ways such as “Just Walk Across The Room” (unbelievable — christians needed an entire multi-week course complete with study guide and video on how to say hi and talk to people. OH the courage! how radical!)
i think this reality has lowered the standard and expectations for people’s life choices, habits, and conduct. and lowered the standard and expectations for God’s interaction with us and our response.
“Christianity” in America (at least) bears no resemblance to what’s described in Joel, Acts, and other passages describing Holy Spirit’s gifts & interaction with us (as i see it, a precursor being “Then He called His twelve disciples together and gave them power and authority over all demons, and to cure diseases. 2 He sent them to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick.” Luke 9)
….i could go on…
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___
“A 501(c)3 Of A ‘Deferent’ (1) Color, Perhaps?”
hmmm…
Changing their name , moving their operations to another state to avoid prosecution, growing obfuscated polity, shielding the principals, hiding behind Calvinism, re-incorporating their 501(c)3, and installing new leadership, doesn’t change the fact that Mahaney still has his peddle on the metal heading his family of (name goes here) churches for a proverbial spiritual clift.(2)
Join in the fun?
SKreeeeeeeeeeetch!
The enigmatic obfuscation/re-invention of an highly documented 501(c)3 abusive religious nightmare?
Buyer(s) Beware!
ATB
Sòpy
___
(1) adj. 1620s, from French déférent (16c.), from Latin deferentem (nominative deferens), present participle of deferre “to carry down or away”
(2) Exposing the darkness: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tW_8Oe_8kj4
(Notice the standing ovation)
;~)
– –
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Max wrote:
Or perhaps on protecting children?
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elastigirl wrote:
The churches that do good I believe are mostly the ones who keep quiet about it. These mega types, and scandals, they are loud. Real character, helping individuals, doing the right thing the first time? You seldom hear about it. People like Corrie Ten Boom would have done the right things, even outside of crisis, and we would never of heard of them. That helps me.
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Deb wrote:
Is Mahaney the one who also claims to be an Apostle?
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@ Doug R:
If there is one SGM item I find most intriguing, it would be Lonnie Frisbee meeting Mahaney. But it’s something I never hear mentioned.
Both already where connected to the Shepherding Movement, so it shouldn’t be a shock they met. But to be a fly on the wall.
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Max wrote:
It’s not just the Neo-Cals. There are plenty of Arminian outfits in which Paul’s missives are viewed as absolute commands from the Almighty Himself. No discussion, no ifs, no ands, and no buts. It’s a paradigm in which Paul is a kind of new Moses to the Gentiles, with God still thundering out of Horeb through his letters which have morphed into a kind of new Torah.
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Muff Potter wrote:
If not a new Mohammed, with God dictating his letters word-for-word like the Koran.
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Nathan Priddis wrote:
Lonnie Frisbee as in the Emmanuel Goldstein of CalvaryChapelCostaMesa?
duobleplusunperson and all?
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Muff Potter wrote:
HEAD Apostle.
Of the People of Destiny(TM).
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Max wrote:
With liveried Armorbearers blowing long trumpets before Him to announce how HUMBLE he is.
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Max wrote:
A Nuremberg Rally for CALVIN’s New Order.
EIN HERRENVOLK! EIN REICH! EIN CALVIN!
(Note: Non-German eyewitnesses to the original Nuremberg rallies described them as “revival meetings”.)
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Lea wrote:
Peter as in The First Pope?
They’re going ROMISH…
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Max wrote:
It’s called “CELEBRITY ENDORSEMENTS”.
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Bridget wrote:
“Cee Jay, Cee Jay, Cee Jay,
There’s just something about that Name,
Pastor, Teacher, Head Apostle,
There’s just something about that Name…”
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refugee wrote:
At which point, “Lord” becomes a filler syllable, Christianese for “Umm…Uhh…” or “Like…You Know…”.
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This closely reminds me of time at SGM when I was excommunicated. So sorry to hear this story.
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ION: US/UK relations
Sadly, I read on the Beeb news pages the other day that US/UK trade is set to decrease, and that relationships between our respective nations aren’t that good.
Well, I still love the American Wartburgers.
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The current climate gives me hope that we really are seeing a change in prevailing attitudes toward sexual abuse and that justice may yet be done in some cases like those in SGM.
Another story previously covered on TWW which I have seen discussed online this week involves Hephzibah House. A couple of former “students” of HH have posted their stories of abuse and their fears young women continue to be abused there. You can read about it here:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?363463-IN-Allegations-of-child-abuse-at-Hephzibah-House-Winona-Lake-2018
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Im_cwlWqOd4&list=PL55095745385CAF54
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ayGCk2V_mY&list=PL55095745385CAF54&index=21
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Ian wrote:
Yes, there are various threads of the New Calvinist movement, but they are all stitched together … Together for the Gospel = Together for Calvinism. The YRR will put up with T4G’s dull music platform in order to mingle with the great, then return home to their whiny guitars, loud drums, and praise teams in tight pants. It’s all for the good of the cause – they have come into the world for such a time as this to restore the “gospel” that the rest of the church has lost, you know.
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ION: Sport
Tennis
So, it’s a repeat of the last Wimbledon final, but with a fully-fit Marin Cilic lining up against The Fed. While it will never have the iconic appeal of last year’s Roger-Rafa epic, Cilic is certainly playing well enough to win it and it should be a fantastic game of tennis. As I turn 50 this year, I will be rooting for The Old Bloke.
The women’s final is, of course, up first with both Halep and Wozniacki looking for their first Slam title. Whoever wins will take 2000 ranking points and, with them, the #1 ranking. Again, an epic encounter is a realistic hope. I will be rooting for fellow-Liverpool-fan Caroline.
Cricket
Sigh.
Fitba’
So, the magic of the FA Cup is back tonight. Bottom-division Yeovil Town, only two points above the Fourth Division drop zone, take on Manchester United in Somerset this evening. Only those who are demon-possessed are refusing to root for Yeovil on this occasion.
IHTIH
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Max wrote:
It should be: “Together forgetting the Gospel”
More truthful that way.
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Todd Wilhelm wrote:
Wait … what? I thought the video was going to be a satire–a Babylon Bee thing. It was a worship song about (to?) CJ Mahaney. And the prayer before it? “God, we thank you that CJ is not like other men….” I simply can’t believe it!
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Cha robh duine anns an éisdeachd
nacho tug a chreud á Sineubha;
Cha robh duine anns a’ bhuidhinn
nach do dh’aidich an creud uile.
Ach mun d’ fhag iad an cladh
thuig iad fhéin an fhìor dhragh.
Agus thuig gach fear sa chòmhlan
nì nach seanaiseadh e ri ònrachd:
nach eil trian de thrian a’ creidsinn
ann an Ifrinn bhuan na h-aidmheil.
There was not a man in the audience
but took his creed from Geneva.
There was not a man in the band
who did not subscribe to the whole creed;
but before they left the graveyard
many a man understood the real distress.
Almost all the company understood
a thing that one would not whisper to himself alone:
that not a third of a third believed
in the lasting Hell of their creed.
(Last verses of Funeral in Clachan, Somhairle MacGill-Eain)
New Calvinists speak easily and loosely of their creed but I wonder how many of them actually believe it when faced with the realities of life and death?
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S@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
:thumbup
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
And we love our wonderful friends in UK!
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@ Muff Potter:
He used to claim that. I guess Mohler and Dever influenced him to drop that title.
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Geoff Smith wrote:
In an Age of Extremes like today, as far-out and crazy as you can go as a joke, there is going to be a True Believer out there twice as far-out, twice as crazy, and DEAD SERIOUS.
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Muff Potter wrote:
This approach is less than a century old and almost exclusively American in origin.
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Deb wrote:
Yes, I’m sure the big boys in the New Calvinist movement requested that C.J. drop his self-proclaimed Apostle tag if he was going to play with them. That title made him look more important than them; big egos don’t like that.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
And also “we juss wanna…”
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Lea wrote:
The word “Presbyterian” does not mean much anymore because there are so many kinds. Some of the most extreme New Calvinists are PCA Presbyterians. There is a church near where I live that has Presbyterian in its title, but it is part of Doug Wilson’s denomination (not aligned with any Presbyterian denomination) and is strongly Calvinist and complementarian. In general, Presbyterians are Reformed (Calvinist). But not all manifest it in the same way.
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Ian wrote:
I have not seen a distinction between New-Calvinists and YRRs. Every one of the names you listed has a significant presence on TGC, which seems to be the flagship website for the YRRs. Kevin DeYoung’s articles on TGC give him the moniker “DeYoung, Restless, and Reformed.” And Piper consider’s himself a senior spokesman for the YRR movement. Wikipedia equates YRR with New Calvinism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Calvinism. I’m not trying to say there is not a distinction, I just don’t know what that distinction would be.
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@ Ken F (aka Tweed):
Pca doesn’t have women at all levels. Kind of important difference. I’m pcusa.
But you know, thanks for Presbyterian lecture? ?
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Lea wrote:
It was not a lecture to you. It was for the benefit of others who might read this. But thanks for misunderstanding my intent.
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@ Ken F (aka Tweed):
It came out sounding rude.
It was clear that I was not talking about any patriarchal types from my comment. People should know that for all the ranting I hear about Calvinists the church I go to is full of kind people who respect women.
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@ Nick Bulbeck:
Thanks, we love you, too!
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@ Nick Bulbeck:
Don’t believe everything you read.
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@ Todd Wilhelm:
Very strange video.
As my husband would say, “Where do you find that in the Bible?”
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Lea wrote:
I’ve been commenting on TWW for almost three years and no one here has consistently misunderstood me as badly as you have. I suspect this is just a case where mere writing will not be able to resolve our perceptual differences, which is ok. I will make a commitment to never again reply to your comments so as to not cause disruption. This is a great site and I don’t want to distract from the otherwise outstanding conversations in the comments section.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Since Nick has probably gone to bed and I know many of you just can’t wait until tomorrow to find out the football scores from Britain (and I actually watched the game):
Manchester United defeated Yeovil Town 4-0.
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Newspaper archives from the 1970s-1980s have Mahaney as:
a “Roman Catholic youth leader”
“a Lay Evangelist in the Roman Catholic Church”
a Jesus People “teacher and rap leader”
“Bible Teacher from T.A.G. Ministries”
teacher at “Take and Give a transdenominational ministry”
in prophetic ministry
elder of Gathering of Believers
one of “a plurality of responsible brethren providing personal care for God’s children at ‘Gathering of Believers’ in Washington, D.C.”
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@ Ken F (aka Tweed):
If you don’t see it you don’t see it Ken. It’s fine.
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@ Jerome:
Very interesting!
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Lea wrote:
This is a good point. Who we are as people goes beyond labels. No matter how one calls oneself, behavior may be north or south, above the line or below the line, good or bad.
[The word “organic” has been tossed around due to Andy Savage’s misguided shade on his definitive night driving to the end of a dirt road into darkness.]
A better use of the word, I believe, is that some church folk are organically (at the integral or fundamental element of the whole) walking in holy obediance, whatever their formal Christian label.
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JYJames wrote:
And some are not, whatever their formal Christian affiliation.
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@ Jerome:
Sounds like Mr. Mahaney is continually re-inventing himself.
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Max wrote:
re·in·vent, verb
– change (something) so much that it appears to be entirely new.
– take up a very different job or way of life.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Cringe-worthy.
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Geoff Smith wrote:
I too had thought that must have been satire.
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Jerome wrote:
Say what? One of the best transformations i’ve heard of. Yikes!
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Yes. Calvary Chapel. I look at it as being a big deal. Wish I knew more.
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Lydia wrote:
Sage advice indeed, and in fact I didn’t. The article headline quoted a certain politician as saying quite the opposite of what I wrote.
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Ken P. wrote:
Sadly, yes; ManUtd’s opponents lost last night. I was out at the climbing wall last night and the game was being shown on the telly across the hall, but there’s not a great view of it from the climbing wall so I didn’t really see it. On the other hand, I did make considerable progress on the newish 6c route with the small orange sloping holds.
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Nathan Priddis wrote:
It looks like Lonnie Frisbee had similar “struggles” that Charles Schmitt has had.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Me too. Transatlantic hugs all round, huddle in now 😉
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JYJames wrote:
We can only hope.
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Lydia wrote:
Relations between the one-percent in both nations will be as peechy-keeno-hunky-dory as they’ve always been. The rest of the populace? Who cares?
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Steve240 wrote:
Yes, Lonnie was by every telling, actively gay. The one exception to the narrative is his own personal statements. They hint a something, but he seemed unable, or unwilling, to identify specific issues.
This would run parallel to Augustine’s Confessions. He went on page after page of contriteness, but never could state what he wanted to confess. Even when he spoke of young men, he could not say he was homosexual.
There are however night and day differences from Frisbee and Schmitt. Schmitt appears to be motivated by gay sex. His life force if you will.
Frisbee had a far great driving energy, but a minor factor was he engaged in homosexual activities along the way. I view him as a carrier, or also, a link in the chain and historical milestone. Also a great mystery.
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I have interacted with Rachael at length regarding the conspiracy to commit and cover-up the sexual abuse of children in Sovereign Grace Ministries. She and her husband, Jacob, appealed to their church leaders in 2016 not to exonerate C.J. Mahaney or allow him to preach in their church. They did not listen.
In her op-ed piece for the New York Times titled “The Price I Paid for Taking On Larry Nassar,” Rachael says, “I lost my church. I lost my closest friends as a result of advocating for survivors who had been victimized by similar institutional failures in my own community.”
“Advocating for survivors” and “similar institutional failures” is a reference to survivors in Sovereign Grace Ministries – now called Sovereign Grace Churches.
She and Jacob, lost their church and closest friends because they took a stand for the victims of abuse in SGM and against C.J. Mahaney and those who unrighteously defended him like their senior pastor, Ryan Fullerton.
Rachael and Jacob are doing an amazing job representing the Lord and his gospel. This is what Rachael told her abuser, Larry Nassar, in court on Wednesday. Nassar was giving lip service to the Bible.
“The Bible you speak carries a final judgment where all of God’s wrath and eternal terror is poured out on men like you. Should you ever reach the point of truly facing what you have done, the guilt will be crushing. And that is what makes the gospel of Christ so sweet. Because it extends grace and hope and mercy where none should be found. And it will be there for you.”
There is so much to learn from this tragic account of abuse. For twenty years, Nassar abused over 200 women because institutional leaders covered up for him. T he story is so analogous to what transpired in SGM for thirty years in relation to over 20 sex abusers.
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For perspective on Ryan Fullerton, people should read “Ryan Fullerton of Immanuel Baptist Church of Louisville Supports CJ Mahaney” by Todd Wilhelm. https://thouarttheman.org/2016/04/12/ryan-fullerton-immanuel-baptist-church-louisville-supports-cj-mahaney/
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Brent, that is quite a remarkable revelation, that Rachael Denhollander, victim of Nassar, went to Immanuel Baptist Church, but was forced out when she objected to Ryan Fullerton’s promotion of CJ Mahaney.
A fascinating link between the two scandals, which I haven’t read about anywhere else. Another Wartburg Watch exclusive?
I was thinking a bit more about this.
The fact that Mahaney remains part of the highest levels of American conservative evangelicalism, as evidenced by him once again speaking at T4G, is an absolute disgrace. This movement proudly proclaims their reformed / Calvinist theology to be True Biblical Christianity. They repeatedly declare their doctrinal and moral superiority, and condemn everyone else. Yet they are total hypocrites, utterly corrupt, and rotten to the core. Shame on them.
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Nathan Priddis wrote:
Interesting comparison.
I found it interesting that Frisbee’s charisma was what significantly help establish both Calvary Chapel and Vineyard. A shame Frisbee wasn’t ever to overcome this or perhaps he never had the desire to overcome this.
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As it understand the history, CJ Mahaney and Larry Tomczak became Christians through the Jesus Movement of the early 1970s. They started out by running a charismatic group called “Take And Give”, which attracted large numbers. Take And Give morphed into People Of Destiny, a group of charismatic churches, and then Tomczak left. Mahaney became reformed and People of Destiny became Sovereign Grace Ministries.
So Mahaney’s roots are very much in the charismatic and Jesus movements. Lonnie Frisbee was a big name in both, and it doesn’t surprise me that there was some sort of link between the two of them.
From what I can tell, Frisbee was a master of manipulating his audiences, something Mahaney also excels in.
I would be interested to know the details of the Frisbee-Mahaney connection. Are there are any websites etc that document it?
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Ian wrote:
Ian
That is the basic history of Mahaney and Tomczak. It should be noted that when TAG was going on which was promoted as a inter church teaching they set up what was originally called Gathering of Believers as a separate entity separate from TAG.
With both Mahaney and Frisbee being part of the Jesus movement and both being well known/promoted speakers it isn’t surprising their paths crossed. It wouldn’t surprise me if they both spoke at some of the same large events.
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Ricco wrote:
Same here. Maybe they were referring to the first few verses, which talk about how people are fighting and quarrelling because they want something they can have, and that causes arguments. That’s the only thing I can think of or glean from that passage that might make sense. Of course it would be a total misunderstanding.
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Truthseeker00 wrote:
I completely agree! And I have a hard time explaining it to other people. It’s when you start talking about things like this that you realise how invested people are in their pet institutions and the status quo.
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Ricco wrote:
This is something I’ve been thinking about lately. I think that much of the church has forgotten, or perhaps never understood, that repentance bears fruit. It’s true that nothing we can do will earn us a place in heaven, because we would have to be perfect for that. So we need Jesus’ death to forgive us. BUT if we have truly accepted and understood that, then there will be a change in our lives, in our behaviour, and above all in our attitudes.
In my way of thinking, if a sexual abuser was honestly repentant, he would confess everything he had done, and would be more considerate of the victim than himself. He would want to do everything possible to put things right. He would turn himself in to the police because he would understand that he had committed a crime, and that the Scriptures tell us to be subject to the laws of the land. He would understand that Jesus goes with him to jail. If a paedophile was truly repentant, they would distance themselves from children and ask for accountability, because they would understand the appalling nature of their sin and they would want to do everything in their power not to hurt a child ever again. The thief must begin to do honest work. And so on.
We’ve got into just what Paul warned against: cheap grace. We think that because salvation is a one-time decision/ transaction, that means nothing matters. We’ve taught that nothing we can do earns us salvation, but we’ve gone too far and said “and therefore nothing we do matters because we’ve got a quick fix. And it’s free!” It’s not free; it cost God His son. It’s just that He is kind enough to offer it to us without cost. We have made small what should be the greatest wonder in the universe, and we use it to hurt and diminish people.
I say we because it’s happening in the church more or less wherever I see it. But I’m thankful that not everyone is complicit, and that some people are standing up and shouting about it.
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elastigirl wrote:
Call me Pentecostal (I won’t be offended because I am one), but I don’t think it does come automatically. I think we have the Holy Spirit as a seal, but we have to be filled/ baptised. And I think that’s why we don’t see things happening as they did in Acts.
“Spirit-filled” doesn’t have to mean rolling on the floor speaking on tongues. I’ve met Spirit-filled British Anglicans and Spirit-filled Apostolic Nigerians, and the two couldn’t seem more different in outward expression. But the heart is the same: compassion, truth, mercy, real love and concern for people. There is real change in their lives, not just going to a cool church with a cool band and hanging out with people just like them. I left the Anglican church as a teenager because I hated the hypocrisy; it was nothing like the church I saw in the Bible. I think that’s the result of seeing Christianity as an outward thing, or just an intellectual agreement, which is true of a lot of institutional churches and the “sinner’s prayer” approach.
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Nathan Priddis wrote:
In both these cases, it would be admitting to violating one of the STRONGEST taboos in their culture.
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Ian wrote:
The End Times-obsessed fringe “Fellowship” that almost snared me back in the Seventies was also involved in the Jesus Movement. Or at least wouldn’t have stood out among them.
Maybe the Jesus Movement went adrift without a Reality Check and Entropy set in?
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Ian wrote:
Generic Trope:
The louder the Virtue Signalling, the greater the Corruption.
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I always sensed that the Holy Spirit is was the Divine Feminine. A couple of seminarians have confirmed it, by illuminating for me that in Hebrew scripture the gender of the noun and pronoun of Holy Spirit is indeed feminine.
The latest Pope has said Priests are superseded by Mary. That is a start. I believe that the Church, and men in particular, must rise above religion, and this means recognizing that “unlimited and unconditional love” is manifest more in the Divine Feminine than any of us men , even collectively, will ever be. Men have to really work at PEACE MAKING, TRUTH AND LIFE, as we are more susceptible to being drawn into WARFARE, DECEPTION AND DEATH.
In other words, yes, men need to be teachers and lead by example for other men, to teach them about their inherent psychological inferiority with respect to life, to be disciples of Jesus Christ, and to be governed by women’s authority to have them removed from leadership for violence and misconduct.
”The truth is so precious it surrounded by a bodyguard of lies” Winston Churchill. Or we might modify this as: ”
The truth is so convicting that it is surrounded by a security force of lies”
Brave Hearts ♥️ don’t retreat. Keep fighting for our sons and daughters, and the seventh generation.
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Well said! ✨@ Liz:
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Mercy wrote:
A chameleon-climber worthy of Talleyrand.