“We are engaging a qualified, independent, third party organization to do a full audit of our church processes and Andy’s ministry.”
While watching the news last evening, my ears perked up during the coverage of Pope Francis’ trip to Chile. According to the report, one of the purposes of his visit was to apologize to Chilean sex abuse victims for the “irreparable damage” they suffered at the hands of priests. To a survivor named Juan Carlos Cruz, the Pope’s apology rings hollow. While being interviewed by Carol Off of CBCRadio (Canada), Carlos remarked:
“They never come with concrete actions, which is what we would expect. I’m not a vengeful person. I tend to forgive everybody. But the pain is so big that he continues to allow to be inflicted on survivors.”
Here in the United States, Larry Nassar – the former USA Olympic gymnastics team doctor who pleaded guilty last November to sexually assaulting seven girls – has been facing an onslaught of victims in a Michigan courtroom. These brave young women have been sharing through tears and angered voices how Nassar robbed them of their childhoods and scarred them for life. Four-time Olympic Gold medalist Simone Biles has come forward revealing that she, too, is “one of the many survivors that was sexually abused by Larry Nassar”.
As more and more sex abuse victims courageously come forward, others who have remained silent in the wake of sexual assault are finally finding their voices. Jules Woodson is a survivor of clergy sex abuse. Perhaps you have read what happened to her here and here. In case you’re not familiar with her story, when she was just 17 year old she was sexually assaulted by her 22 year old Youth Pastor, Andy Savage. That was 20 years ago.
After suffering in silence for far too long, Jules has finally come forward to reveal what happened during her formative years. The church leader who should have been encouraging her spiritually betrayed her, and the long-term repercussions have been extremely detrimental.
Savage has confessed that he and Jules had an inappropriate sexual experience but claims it was mutual. Obviously, we are siding with Jules, whom we believe was groomed and then sexually abused by the Youth Pastor she admired and trusted.
So where do things stand now? A Memphis news station filed this report last week:
Last Thursday Chris Conlee, lead pastor at HighPoint Church, announced that Andy Savage would be taking a leave of absence and that the church would be hiring a third party organization to conduct an audit of church operations as well as Savage’s ministry (see screen shot below).
The next day Conlee revealed who would be conducting the audit – the attorneys from MinistrySafe (see screen shot below).
According to its website, the principals of MinistrySafe are two attorneys, Gregory Love and Kimberlee Norris. Here is what they do.
Hopefully, HighPoint Church already has a system in place to keep kids safe. We wonder how they will assess Andy Savage’s position at the church.
While hiring a third party organization to conduct an audit sounds commendable, here are some things to consider:
- Who hired this organization to do the audit?
- Who will be privy to MinistrySafe’s findings?
- Who will oversee MinistrySafe’s compensation?
Right off the bat Dee and I have seen some red flags regarding this auditing firm. It seems to us that an organization such as MinistrySafe is beholden to the church leaders who hire them. Is it possible for them to conduct an impartial audit, given who is paying their fee? Just how independent can they really be? This is a big concern to us.
A few years ago Boz Tchividjuan wrote an article concerning “independent investigations”, which was entitled:
Are abuse survivors best served when institutions investigate themselves?
He began the article as follows:
In the past years, we have heard many faith-based institutions announce the launching of independent investigations to address issues of past sexual abuse that have publicly surfaced. Whether it’s academic institutions, mission organizations, churches, or denominations, the term “independent investigation” has become almost fashionable.
When an organization is confronted with public allegations of child sexual abuse within their ranks, it finds itself under a bright spotlight as the watching world waits to see how it will respond. All too often, the overriding institutional concern has very little to do with caring for the victims, but everything to do with protecting its reputation by doing everything it can to shut off the spotlight. This is often accomplished by announcing that the institution will launch an “independent” investigation. The organization proceeds to hire a private investigative group or law firm to investigate the matter with the hope that this process will calm everyone down and eventually turn off the spotlight. Because the motivation for this process can be based upon institutional self-preservation, many investigations labeled as “independent” are nothing more than “internal” investigations in disguise. An internal investigation allows the institution being investigated to stay in the driver’s seat, while an independent investigation requires that they get into the backseat with everyone else.
Boz goes on to explain that it’s important to understand who’s in the driver’s seat regarding the ‘independent investigation’. In other words, who is in control of the process, the findings, and the final report?
He then states:
One of the most disconcerting characteristics of an internal investigation is that the investigator often works alongside of the institution in drafting and authorizing the final report. This means that the very entity being investigated will ultimately determine what the content of the final report.
Not only does an internal investigation allow the institution to determine the content of the final report, but it also has the authority to decide who reads it. I know some abuse survivors who painstakingly participated in what they were told was an “independent” investigation, only to learn later that they were not allowed to read any of the final report. Other survivors have informed me that they were provided only portions of the final report that the institution alone determined they could read. Such limited access exacerbates the frustration and pain of survivors who have often waited years to learn the truth, the whole truth. Once again, these survivors were left feeling helpless and exploited by an institution that was all too comfortable sitting the driver’s seat.
An independent investigation requires the investigator to draft and authorize the final report separate from any institutional input or control. The investigator alone determines the content of the final report and who will receive it. In most independent investigations, a complete copy of the final report will be provided to the subject institution and to any of the abuse survivors who participated in what usually is a very painful process. Some independent investigators will actually require that the final report be posted publicly for all to read. Such transparency has a unique way of keeping the process accountable and credible. An investigation that is legitimately independent means that the institution being investigated is not in the driver’s seat when it comes to controlling the final report.
The independence of an investigation is not defined by the words or assurances of the institution being investigated. It is defined by a structure that requires the institution to get out of the driver’s seat and give up control. This can be a profound step forward for an organization who is genuinely focused on demonstrating love and repentance to those who have been hurt.
We hope the HighPoint congregation will be paying very close attention to how this audit is conducted.
Had Dee and I not been blogging for so long (almost 9 years!), we might have been big supporters of this step that HighPoint is taking in hiring a third-party organization to audit them.
Unfortunately, we have seen situations with other ministries where outside organizations and/or individuals were brought in to smooth things over. Some of our long-time readers will remember the Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM) debacle and the hiring of Ambassadors of Reconciliation. We wrote about it way back in 2011. (see below)
Ambassadors of Reconciliation: Let’s Take a Closer Look
C.J. Mahaney had come under fire for certain character flaws such as “pride, unentreatability, deceit, sinful judgment, and hypocrisy” and for allegedly not reporting sexual abuse that had occurred in the SGM ‘family of churches’. For 27 years Mahaney had served as senior pastor Covenant Life Church and at the time he was president of SGM.
When it was announced that Ambassadors of Reconciliation (AoR) was being hired to conduct an independent investigation, it was described as “a ministry that primarily serves Lutheran churches”. Once we began digging into AoR, we discovered that Ted Kober and Ed Keinath had strong ties to Peacemaker Ministries. Why is this significant? Because C.J Mahaney and the head of Peacemaker Ministries – Ken Sande – were good friends.
We did a follow-up post when report was released — AoR Report Released: Just How Unhealthy Is SGM?
Since SGM’s website has been taken down (they are now ‘Sovereign Grace Churches’), the report is gone… As I remember, there was quite a bit of criticism leveled at church members who dared to complain about how things had been handled.
Several years later an article was published in The Washingtonian which summed up what had been occurring at SGM’s flagship church, Covenant Life, quite well…
The Sex-Abuse Scandal That Devastated a Suburban Megachurch
It’s an eye-opening article that we believe to be highly accurate.
Not only did SGM hire AoR as an ‘independent investigator’ to try and smooth things over, but the denomination had previously arranged for a panel of three theologians (who were supposed to be ‘objective’) to decide whether C.J. Mahaney was ‘fit for ministry’.
It was only after the panel’s report was released, affirming that Mahaney was indeed fit for ministry, that we discovered the identities of the three men who comprised the panel — Kevin DeYoung, Ray Ortlund, and Carl Trueman. Their names were kept secret while they were conducting the investigation. Turns out they ALL had connections to Mahaney, and we wrote about those ties here. So much for their purported ‘impartiality’.
So using SGM as an example, the leaders chose the third-party organization (AoR), and it was obvious that the report was written in such a way as to keep the current leadership in charge. No doubt the sum that AoR charged was substantial, and the bottom line is that the members of the congregation paid for it (although they had no control whatsoever over the process).
Getting back to Highpoint Church and their selection of a third-party organization, we believe those at MinistrySafe who will be conducting the investigation will be aligned with the pastors. Once everything is smoothed over, it will be ‘business as usual’ at Highpoint Church.
As far as Andy Savage is concerned, he is the co-founder of Highpoint Church. It would be extremely difficult for him to be untanged from this business venture, so in all likelihood he should be back in the saddle soon…
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First!
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Silver!
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Similar experience: church has massive building cost overruns. Oversight body of building team wants an independent audit of the contractor process. Building team guy says another building team guy who knows a great firm for the job. The team and church staff become the information conduit through which the audit is done. This was then represented repeatedly as a 100% independent audit.
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3rd
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Astute analysis, Deb; after the SGM fiasco, I think it is difficult to believe that Highpoint, especially in view of how clumsily they have handled things so far, will sanction a truly independent report.
Also, they seem overly concerned about Andy Savage–I see little little concern for Jules in these statements they release. If we wonder why there is so little respect for institutional churches, well…
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I used to work for the accounting firm Arthur Andersen, long before the Enron scandal put them out of business. As auditors, CPA firms are required to follow strict guidelines and practices regarding the audit process, and to ensure true independence. They need to maintain the public’s trust. In the case of Arthur Andersen, this trust was lost and they were almost immediately put out of business. (Later the firm was exonerated, but only after imploding).
Perhaps there needs to be some oversight of businesses like Ministry Safe and Ambassadors of Reconciliation in order to ensure that they act as fiduciaries to the public. There should be some standards promulgated. Should investors be given more protection than parents and their children? If this industry will not self-regulate, then the government will need to act to bring true justice for victims.
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According to MinistrySafe, they are NOT PERFORMING an audit of anything related to Andy Savage. They are merely doing a review of the existing procedures of Highpoint.
This would be known as a review of a company’s internal controls in accounting parlance. This is only a part of a financial audit. The other part is the audit of past results. So, no confidence can be placed in the MinistrySafe report concerning the past “operating results.”
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If Highpoint leaders knew or cared what the Bible said, they wouldn’t be hiring this firm. They’d just do the right thing. And they’d focus on helping the victim.
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These guys are such weasels. Apparently there was a change of plans regarding “the audit” between January 11th and January 12th:
Conlee’s 1/11/18 update on Third Party Audit:
http://www.highpointmemphis.com/important-updates/posts/update-third-party-audit
Conlee’s 1/12/18 MinistrySafe update:
http://www.highpointmemphis.com/important-updates/posts/ministrysafe-audit
On January 11th, Conlee promised: “we are engaging a qualified, independent, third party organization to do a full audit of our church processes and Andy’s ministry.”
This morphed on January 12th to: “Here’s a quick update: Highpoint Church has engaged attorneys from MinistrySafe to assist the church in assessing and enhancing our current child protection practices.”
Bait and switch.
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A true “audit” would investigate the hiring of Andy Savage, his qualifications for ministry, and whether an actionable offense (crime) was committed in 1998 by Andy Savage. It would also look at other instances of possible cover-ups of sexual abuse by Highpoint. This “audit” is a sham. The past is being ignored.
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An audit from MinistrySafe is a good thing, but not relevant to the situation. At worst it is a smokescreen.
However, had such controls been in place 20 years ago at Woodlands, it would not have stopped the abuse.
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Dale Rudiger wrote:
The leadership must really think their congregation is stupid to fall for something like this. Anyone watching the parking lot over the last two weeks? I hope people are voting with their feet.
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@ Dale Rudiger:
I noticed that too. Bait and switch is right!
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@ DrMike:
My understanding is that similar to the boyscouts, Woodlands had a policy that the Youth Pastor was never to be alone with a student. Andy just broke the rule.
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A truly “independent” organization is retained by a party not involved in the matter at hand in any way … they are not dependent on compensation derived from side A or B. Highpoint is involved in the matter … they are the source of revenue for the party investigating their pastor. While the auditor they have chosen may work with the highest level of integrity to distance themselves from Highpoint’s influence and control, they are not truly an independent third-party organization in the spirit of that meaning.
IMO, a truly independent third-party investigator would be one designated by another party concerned about this matter, without any involvement from Highpoint whatsoever. This is where the Southern Baptist Convention fails their membership when these things come up. As an SBC church, denominational executives should be driving this thing to appoint an independent auditor. This is where local church autonomy fails the greater Body of Christ. SBC failed their members when they allowed Mahaney and his SGM churches to join the denomination. They are failing their members again by not stepping into the gap here. There needs to be a better way for SBC (and other denominations) to address issues at the local church level.
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JDV wrote:
Which of course is not an “independent” audit, no matter how you spin it. Unfortunately, enough church folks will fall for it, as long as the coffee shop stays open in the foyer.
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Dale Rudiger wrote:
Oh but Mr. Conlee paints that picture in his communication to church members.
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Dale Rudiger wrote:
If Highpoint, or any other church (particularly the megas), want to truly come across on the up-and-up in financial integrity, they should seek certification by The Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability (ECFA).
http://www.ecfa.org/Content/About
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17
… Yikes, that is a dangerous age at HighPoint.
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DrMike wrote:
Exactly to the particulars!
Mostly smoke and mirrors. ( which the congregation is used to with it’s fog machines ) Also, how does this have much to do with Andy? Does nothing to exonerate Jules.
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The hole they are digging at Highpoint just keeps getting deeper and wider. And to think, this whole sad chapter in the life of the church could have ended if only one man – Mr. Savage – had done the right thing 20 years ago. Sure others have failed along the way, but he should have taken personal accountability and steered clear of the poor council he received in Texas, faced the consequences, and stepped away from the ministry. Since he didn’t, churches in Texas and Tennessee now have to scramble to justify their past actions, Highpoint leaders are trying to make the best of a bad thing, Highpoint members are confused and disillusioned, and the world has yet another reason to speak words of reproach about Christianity in America.
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I also tweeted this info …
From their website: “Through MinistrySafe and Abuse Prevention Systems, she has trained over 450,000 ministry staff members and volunteers since 2005.”
This is training an average of 94 people a day … every day of the year since 1/1/05.
I don’t point this out to be critical of MinistrySafe as I have no personal knowledge of their program. However, the effectiveness of mass training is limited, and an average of 94 trainees/day is, in my opinion, mass training.
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I think it is unlikely that the audit is going to address the Andy Savage issue at all, because it is in the past. It is going to be for the good of Highpoint Church – to show that they’ve done something positive.
Watch the Policy and Procedures video. About 38 seconds in, the speaker says this:-
“I oftentimes will sit with people in a crisis where there’s been an allegation, and we are trying to shepherd an organisation through and how to manoeuvre through that situation….” In other words, here’s how you get out of the”situation”. You can only hope that somewhere in their policy and procedures manual there will be a section on how to call the cops and how to care for the victim.
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Here’s the link
https://ministrysafe.com/the-safety-system/policies-procedures/
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__
“Live Free Or Extinguish Abuse Hard?”
hmmm…
“When religious freedom falls apart,
You can surrender on sight
You can run for the exits
Or you can fight back
To your last breath,
Until there is nothing left…”
*
You all are dreaming…
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gQWPejgPQBM
Scriptural qualifications mean very little to these highly paid 501(c)3 religious professionals.
IMHO Only the consistent combined pressure of social media will eliminate these proverbial miscreants from this Memphis pulpit.
♪♩♪♩ hum, hum, hum …Ooh, Memphis dreaming on such a winters day…
Safe and warm…you got to be kidding.
(sadface)
Sòpy
;~)
– –
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Bait and switch, smoke and mirrors, loaded dice.
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Kemi wrote:
The Chocolate Ration of twenty grams has been INCREASED to ten grams?
Yes, they’ll fall for it. Bleating “AAAAAAAA-MENNNNNNN!” all the way and turning on any dissident.
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Lowlandseer wrote:
“I don’t pay a lawyer to tell me what I want to do is illegal. I pay a lawyer to tell me how to get away with what I want to do!”
— John D Rockefeller, J.P.Morgan, or one of the other 19th Century Captains of Industry
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MinistrySafe promotes what they call the “Skillful Screening Process.” Here is the video:
https://ministrysafe.com/the-safety-system/skillful-screening/
“The best way to predict future behavior almost without exception is past behavior. So what we want to do in an effective screening process is look at past behavior of applicants who are applying to serve in your ministry program.”
Germantown and Highpoint failed miserably in their due diligence with Andy Savage.
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Deb wrote:
“Had Dee and I not been blogging for so long (almost 9 years!), we might have been big supporters of this step that HighPoint”
Yeah, Highpoint church is writing the paycheck for the investigation. How can that not influence the final result???
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@ Dale Rudiger:
The problem with these things is not everyone agrees on qualifications for Ministry due to the cheap forgiveness/grace shitck.
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This is what you get when there’s no hierarchy with real oversight. Every church is its own little kingdom and does it’s own thing. No accountability to a denomination, synod, etc. Now, hierarchy isn’t a guarantee of accountability (see the Catholic church’s problems), but it at least provides a structure in which it is easier to implement independent oversight. Without it, accountability can only come from outside, and usually by the time that happens the damage is already done.
I work for a state agency and part of our work is investigative. In those cases, we never deal directly with the entity being investigated. We are hired by and communicate with an overseeing entity. The agencies being investigated have no say in what is reported. That is as it should be. It’s not difficult to set up a structure like this. When such a structure doesn’t exist, as is the case with many churches and parachurch organizations, it’s usually on purpose. Real independent oversight is inconvenient and bothersome to people with an authoritarian and egotistical bent.
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Yawn, nothing will come of this, follow the check and who writes it.
If they find anything wrong, it will be a slap on the wrist, then business as usual.
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Deb
Thank you for this timely post. I have always been dismayed by the lack of impartial and independent investigators when it comes to sex abuse and the church. It is sad for me to look over the landscape and realize that churches seek to protect themselves and their institutions over the victims. The attacks that I have seen on Jules have been nothing short of nauseating. Jesus cared for the disenfranchised and hurt. It was the Pharisees who bore the brunt of his anger.
I pray that other churches, outside of the involved ones, will take notice and plan to do the right thing when the time comes.
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JDV wrote:
Seriously? I fear this is what the church has become. Lots of ugly buildings to house vast numbers of people who are trained in such a shallow way that they don’t even get that the church is merely a business venture with well paid executives and the people are their ATMs on legs.
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Cousin of Eutychus wrote:
I also have gotten the vibe that Savage is to be protected and Jules is the irritating Jezebel who has messed up the entire apple cart.
Your opinion is being echoed on a national level and a response will be coming. This will not be in Memphis with some guy who messes up the broadcast by deleting important aspects of the interview and then insults and threatens Amy Smith who was proven to be correct. I knew she would be, and I will write about this on Friday.
After that, I plan to resume regularly scheduled posting until the response happens. I do want to continue with the Biblical Counseling Movements, another abuse story involving domestic abuse in small town, the Moody Bible mess and lots of other things.
This blog and Amy’s will be the first to be notified when the response happens. It will be awesome.
Also, I want to reassure you all that Jules is doing well. This woman is a gifted communicator as she talks about her story. I believe she is sensing the empowerment that occurs when one realizes that they are not alone, they are believed and that the world, except for some bots and ill educated Christians, is on her side.
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Dale Rudiger wrote:
Please excuse my cynicism when I say that the evangelical church will be the last to demand such a thing. They want to be the final arbiters and view all outsiders as “daughters of Stan (sic) and minions of Satin (sic).
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Shannon H. wrote:
They want some people to say “Highpoint is a really safe spot for kids. Nothing to see here. Move along.” This will NOT deal with the Savage issue. It appears to be a mere distraction from the obvious.
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DrMike wrote:
I agree with most of your statement. I would like to hear why you think Ministry Safe audit is a good thing. In other words, what change might it cause? The reason I ask is that I am sure the church already has all sorts of good things in place for the kiddos.
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CENG1 wrote:
While I’m inclined to believe this is puffery on the part of MinistrySafe, let’s take them at their word (for the sake of argument). They can process an extraordinary # of people, since their training appears to be online (videos, etc.)—https://ministrysafe.com/pricing/
The Ministry lower tier program would seem to cost $110 for a user, while their more robust program would appear to be $305 (with an additional $250/yr membership cost).
Disregarding the yearly renewal of the membership cost and assuming that half of trainees do the lower tier program and half do the more extensive version, the average year 1 cost per user would seem to be $207.50. At 94 trainees per day (each and every day), MinistrySafe would seem to be bringing in nearly $20K PER DAY!
In short, MinistrySafe is garnering about $7.1 MILLION PER YEAR! That kind of money is enough to make Savage and Conlee feel like they sold out cheap by doing run-of-the-mill fraudulent ministry!
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dee wrote:
You’re excused! Failure to bring accountability will ultimately be dealt with by the market. It’s funny how effective loss of $$$, influence, and reputation can be. Accountability is now being enforced by discerning Christians through social media.
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Speaking of sell-outs and smoke and mirrors…interesting to find that Ben Ferguson (the friendly “Memphis” radio interviewer of Andy Savage) not only got caught editing the posted version of the interview with Savage in order to be favorable to Savage, but HE DOESN’T EVEN LIVE IN MEMPHIS! Ferguson lives in Dallas and broadcasts from there. Do Memphians know that their popular “local” political radio show is not, in fact, local?
He sure gives a lot of personal advertiser testimonials (e.g. “When I need to lose weight, I go to Dr. XXXXXX in Memphis–he makes it easy,” et al). I guess that his broadcasting integrity is not actually that important to him.
This is a bit like finding out that your local evening news is really filmed 500 miles away in front of a green screen with pictures of your city superimposed.
No wonder he likes Andy Savage…fraudulent birds of a feather!
Also, Savage was in Dallas on the day of the Ferguson interview to meet with attorneys. Were his attorneys present for the interview? Shouldn’t Ferguson have disclosed this?
From the initial “confession” in TX, to the current “confession” of the “incident,” to the orchestrated “apology”, to the faked “interview”, to the hiring of “3rd party investigators” MinistrySafe…this whole affair is a fraud perpetrated on the public!
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CENG1 wrote:
First I want to say I know nothing about this operation so I’m just guessing.
My guess is those numbers come from a lot of online courses or trainings or whatever you call them. A third-party provider “trained” over 20,000 employees in a six month period on SH and bullying in the workplace. You can even print out your certificate at the end. 🙂
Secondly these operations are for mostly for insurance reasons. It’s big money. It makes sense to me that lawyers would team up to focus on churches. Institutional church is Big Business.
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Disheartening. The coverup has begun. Apparently, anything on their social media accounts that come from a dissenting voice is being scrubbed away and members that do have questions are being ignored.
I live in a small town just outside of Memphis and have been following this case closely. The willful ignorance and blind acceptance that the followers of Conlee and Savage have is truly mind-boggling. My sister-in-law is unfortunately one of them. All I can do is shake my head. Even faced with the facts and truths that have come from Savage’s own mouth, they refuse to see that what he did was wrong. These people are being played and they don’t even know it. The cognitive dissonance is astounding. Are these people so desperate to be a part of the Highpoint community that they are willing to ignore what is going on around them and accept this? Their hard-earned money given as tithes to the church are being used to cover up sexual assault and protect the men that hid it for so many years. That money could be used to help people! To enrich the lives of people in their community. To show people God’s love. Instead it is going to lawyers, PR firms and companies specifically designed to offer the appearance of doing something without really doing anything at all.
I am incensed and outraged on behalf of these people that are too brainwashed to see it for themselves. How can they ignore the pain of those suffering at the hands of their leaders?
I realize that exposing Savage and giving Jules an opportunity to speak her truth may be the only thing that comes out of this in the end. It makes me incredibly sad. Just as it was for her 20 years ago, she spoke up and nothing was or will be done. Savage will have gotten away with it again and will not be held accountable for what he did to her. Highpoint, Conlee and their clean-up crew will put their spin on it, then after a time of hiding out, Savage will reemerge once again and resume his position as celebrity pastor. He will leverage this to his advantage; I am certain of it and his gullible followers will eat it up. It is a slap in the face of Jules and all victims of clergy abuse.
I can only imagine how Jules must feel about all of this. It would have been easy for her to not speak up and go through all of this scrutiny again; opening up wounds that have scabbed over, but not healed. I hope that in speaking her truth, she can find peace and finally heal. I am in awe of her strength. I want her to know that I believe her am proud of her.
How do you guys not lose heart? Exposing the hypocrisy, manipulation tactics and deceit by these so-called men of God everyday and nothing ever seems to change. Story after story of cover-ups and blame shifting and silencing victims. I applaud your tenacity in the face of (seemingly) insurmountable odds of actually making a difference. I am thankful and appreciative for all the work that Dee, Deb and Amy do.
I realize I am an anomaly. I am a 46 year old married female with no children that despises social media. I have the same reasons as many others for not engaging in it, but throughout this I have been wading in to get the facts that honestly I wouldn’t have found elsewhere (at least until the standing ovation at Highpoint). Just know that I, like many, many others are reading and absorbing what you are writing. You are making a difference one person at a time.
I am spurred to action; to do something, but I have no idea where or how to begin. Since I live in the area, I am considering protesting outside Highpoint Church. Are any of you aware of people that are doing this, and if so, how would I go about contacting them to get involved?
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Jon A wrote:
Andy broke rules consistently. He had already been caught alone tickling Jules before he more aggressively sexually assaulted her. MinistrySafe adding more rules and procedures will change nothing.
These evil pastors facing full consequences of the law or the business end of a baseball bat when they sexually abuse women &/or children will be the only real deterrent.
P.S. I wonder how much “grace” the simpletons in the pews would show a victim of pastor sexual abuse who subsequently hit said pastor square in the kneecaps with a Louisville Slugger?
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Sòpwith wrote:
It smells to me like Highpoint’s goose is already cooked. For Sunday dinner back on the 7th. Well done, perhaps.
Giving units will begin resembling empty pews and lesser staff members should start sending out their resumes, as right-sizing will be on the way.
As for the winter’s day, I see Memphis has a wind chill of 14 degrees. Up here in the Northwestern mountains, it’s 45, with 100% chance of rain on the way– straight from Honolulu. Last year at this time the snow was almost to the eaves.
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@ AbuseCrusher:
Thank you for your excellent research regarding MinistrySafe. Looks like a VERY PROFITABLE BU$INE$$
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@ Andrea:
Welcome to TWW! I am so sorry that someone in your family is caught up in this mess. Hoping she will soon understand your great concerns about the church she attends.
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dee wrote:
That’s a great description of the mega-church world. In our area, there are still quaint old mainstream churches, which still carry some of the DNA of a bygone era. But the tide is shifting, as these older churches deal with aging congregations and glorious but hard to maintain buildings.
I heard a historian talking about church history, and how this era in the US could be called the “secularization of Christianity,” as churches become less institutional, less connected, and more of an entrepreneurial business.
By the way, great analysis Dale! The job description definitely changed.
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Deb, Dee, Massmind:
Ever notice all these churches and MoGs all sound and act alike?
You could take a TWW church-corruption expose from years ago and just change the names. All the shticks (including shyster & sexual) are the same, only the names and faces are different.
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Dave A A wrote:
Was that the date of that Standing Ovation?
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
And don’t forget two minutes ‘love’ on the telescreen.
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I’m so sick of what are basically in house investigations.
A Christian in my town decided to try to ignore an alleged claim of abuse by a friend’s child. She is positive it’s a lie and that “God’s way is higher than ours” and she would ignore it and instead counsel the family. (We are in a mandatory reporting state). Someone else found out and reported it. This lady got arrested for failure to report. Her lawyer later got the charges dropped for “not enough evidence” leading to a report, but to this day this sick woman cries “persecution! Suffering for God!!” and mysteriously shuts up if you ask how she knew if the teen was lying or not. When you ask her, she clams up and says “I’m not carrying the offense of others. I’m glad God worked it out” and all sorts of other Christianese babble. So no one is really sure if it was a valid claim or not. Still upsets me.
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dee wrote:
Channeling my inner Malvina Reynolds here.
Everybody Sing Along!
Great big boxes
On the hillside
Great big boxes made of ticky-tack;
Great big boxes on the hillside
And they all look just the same;
There’s a Mega, and a Giga,
And an SBC and a Calvinist,
Great big boxes on the hillside
And they all act just the same…
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Muff Potter wrote:
Ten meters tall, at all the “franchise campuses”.
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AbuseCrusher wrote:
The new redefinition of “Doing the LOORD’s Work”, eh, My Dear Wormwood?
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Andrea wrote:
One person at a time …….. I get the sneaking suspicion that that makes it worth it for the DEEBS.
Welcome to TWW!
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I Fear A Cage wrote:
We wouldn’t tolerate that for 1 second in the real world.
(Politics, aside, please) Imagine the (reasonable and righteous) outcry if Hillary Clinton had announced she hired a “3rd party” to do the only investigation of her alleged email irregularities or if Donald Trump had done the same regarding potential Russia collusion. And further imagine that the results would only be seen (and would be edited) by the target of the investigation. The public would have a conniption!
Why do we tolerate this nonsense from the church? Apparently, the smoke machines and manipulated background music have a hypnotic effect that serves to dramatically lower IQ.
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@ I Fear A Cage:
Knew of a similar situation as well. Sixteen year old boy babysitting 7/8 year olds, one a female. Mother of babysitter swore up and down, son wouldn’t do such a thing. Family of female swore he did. Legally went no where.
Have always wondered what was the truth.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Yep.
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Dave A A wrote:
If you will for give me for being childish for a moment ………. Grrrrr, I hate you!
I’m in rural Kentucky, 22 miles from the TN state line. 9″ of snow Monday night and Tuesday ……. drifted to 2 ft + in places. Tuesday night low her was -1 F. Yesterday’s high was 12 F. Our dead end side road (and all secondary county roads) and our 100 yd long driveway is still solid white. Hoping for a big melt today and tomorrow!
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@ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):
PS: 1/2 inch of ice beneath the snow …… believe me, Southern KY highway depts and most drivers are never ready for this.
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Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:
OUR dead end side road (and all secondary county roads) SHOULD BE solid white November to April, and the drivers and road crews are ready for that. The coming rain, however, will freeze into a skating rink tomorrow. Of course, there are some pretty slippery miscreants down in Memphis.
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Dave A A wrote:
And some really dumb “drivers” who are unqualified and incapable of navigating the morally-dangerous icy roads the celebutards in the pastorate encourage them to travel.
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Lydia wrote:
I agree with your guess. In which case it is more accurate for MinistrySafe to state we developed a lot of materials that people may have actually viewed and listened to versus “trained over 450,000.”
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John wrote:
This is also what you get when the congregation has no oversight, and instead are treated as sheep who must follow the Pastor and his sycophantic “elders.” I have no problem with hierarchies, though I prefer congregational polity. But, I have a large problem with a small group of people who are accountable to no one setting themselves up as the rulers of a church, as these Neo-Calvinist Pastor-Led and Elder-Led churches do.
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Dave A A wrote:
My hubby is from the mountains of Western Maine – everybody has a snowplow.
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@ dee:
Thanks for the encouragement. I have been thinking of Jules throughout this process. I am glad for her having the courage to step forward, and glad that she has such a fierce and able support team.
I saw a headline this morning that Brigitte Bardot blasted the #metoo movement as “ridiculous” and “hypocritical”. I haven’t read the article yet, but the headline is discouraging. Considering the source (Fox News), maybe it is intended to discourage.
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dee wrote:
Then it’s an excellent thing that such a bright beacon is being beamed at the church, illuminating the dark corners and exposing the shadows where the rats would hide. From what I read (like comments about the atmosphere at youth activities at HP), it is definitely not a safe place for children and teens, and that needs to be publicized widely.
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Everyone should read the articles about this story and how many reports were made, and blind eyes were turned, before Nassar was actually removed. Initial reports were made in 1997. 20 years ago.
And then read the victim impact statements which have been powerful, and tell me how ‘it was 20 years ago’ is any kind of defense.
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DrMike wrote:
If being alone with Jules (the tickling incident) was against the rules, than driving her into the woods was probably also against the rules.
It doesn’t matter how many protocols you have if you don’t follow them, and there are no consequences for violating them.
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Lea wrote:
Wow. Eye-opening comparison.
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Lea wrote:
And yet the church will insist on keeping AS in place, more than likely. Chickens, electing the fox to lead the flock.
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I laugh when people in leadership say, “I offered to resign,” in regard to making right some wrong. BUT YOU DIDN’T RESIGN.
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@ refugee:
Yes indeed!
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Guess who else has utilized Ministry Safe?
Sovereign Grace Ministries, C.J. Mahaney’s denomination. They “partnered” with them in 2015.
So much for credibility!
https://thouarttheman.org/2015/04/25/oh-the-irony-marty-machowski-now-lecturing-sgm-members-on-how-to-recognize-sexual-predators/
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@ refugee:
Ms Bardot has very strong views on a number of things and has been charged with inciting racial hatred several times. It doesn’t surprise me that she has taken a swipe at Metoo# given her own career. Off-topic, I know, but I once had breakfast with her and Roger Vadim during filming of Don Juan, her second last movie.
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@ Todd Wilhelm:
Thanks for this, Todd!
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@ refugee:
Then there’s Woody Allen, who said today, “I never molested my daughter – as all investigations concluded a quarter of a century ago.”
Mr Savage and friends should take a clue– instead of saying it was all dealt with properly 20 years ago they should say a fifth of a century. Sounds longer!
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Jarrett Edwards wrote:
It ain’t just Neo-Cals. Ever hear of Calvary Chapel?
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@ Todd Wilhelm:
I am taking a bold stand against made-up or made-up-sounding words that evangelicals use like “partnered” and “missionary.” Who is with me??
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@ refugee:
I’ve been thinking some about the #metoo movement. I’ve seen four types of things shared under #metoo
1. Rape/sexual assault. Criminal actions
2. Sexual harassment that might not be illegal but is against workplace policy
3. Sexual harassment that seems wrong to most people but isn’t against workplace policy or didn’t happen in the workplace
4. Awkward pickup attempts.
For numbers 1 and 2, the #metoo movement has been amazing. So many courageous people sharing heartbreaking stories. I’m blown away by the bravery and honesty of these people. I think number 3 is where we as a society need to talk to each other and figure out what we expect of people. Has anyone read the Aziz Ansari accusations. To me, it seems like he acted like a jerk, but I don’t know if this falls under the rubric of #metoo. He didn’t force that young woman to do anything, but she felt pressure to do so. It’s easy to say he should just keep it in his pants until he is married, but he clearly doesn’t buy into traditional sexual ethics. Is it his responsibility to read non-verbal cues and figure out if she really wants sex or not. There is no easy answer to this, but it is something that needs to be discussed. I have seen number 4 in a few instances, and I think it cheapens the #metoo movement. If a man flirts with a woman, she rebuffs him and he gracefully withdrawals, that has little to do with #metoo and shouldn’t be considered part of this.
The question with things like is as follows: is this a good movement that a few people have chosen to exploit, or is it a bad movement that some people have accomplished good in spite of. I think people’s perspective on this depends on where they get their news. I could find you 100 examples of excellent use of the #metoo movement, or 100 statements of people who use the hashtag for purposes other than for what it was intended.
In conclusion, I think we need to look at each story shared under the #metoo hashtag separately and not fall for people trying to use this movement to polarize people into two groups. The majority of people (non-famous, regular people) agree about the majority of #metoo statements. A variety of people want to latch on to this, like they latch onto everything else, as a way to divide people for their own profit. Many of these people work in the media.
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Dave A A wrote:
One of the reports I heard referred to it as “decades ago”.
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@ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):
They aren’t even ready up here in the city on secondary roads. Three days of school cancelled. We are not used to the low temps. 6 degrees! But looking at 50 degrees on Sat. Temp whiplash.
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@ refugee:
Some of us are concerned about everything and anything being lumped into the movement. I have a lot of hands-on experience with victim advocacy so I don’t think my concerns are moot . However, I believe the church is very different and should have much higher standards than just due process. But I still believe in due process and I always will as an American citizen.
I think it would be interesting to take a look at how the mandatory reporting laws have changed things across the board. I know that doctors, therapist, and the school system takes mandatory reporting very seriously.
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Todd Wilhelm wrote:
And the ministry has not been safe ever since!
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FW Rez wrote:
In the last millennium?
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Lydia wrote:
I think this depends on what the point of the movement is. If you see this type of behavior as a continuum, rather than a flat rape/not rape (or harassment or what have you)…Of course lesser behavior is not as serious and possibly not illegal. But the attitude behind it may still need to be addressed? I think that’s my understanding of it.
I would be concerned at people who say ‘see it’s all just lesser behavior’ if I thought they would care about major behavior without these other minor harassments being reported…but at this point I don’t think they care at all one way or the other. They will believe the minor things and dismiss them, but when it’s something major they will either not believe, question motives, dodge, blame the woman (like Jules), etc.
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Lydia wrote:
I think it was 8 here yesterday. Brr.
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Dale Rudiger wrote:
Actually, this is just common sense. Giving Germantown the benefit of the doubt, Highpoint leadership (Conlee) knew exactly what had happened. Church leaders should never put their church members at potential risk by putting someone on staff with a past behavior in another church which included moral failure, betrayal of trust … and disqualification from ministry in the minds of many.
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Dale Rudiger wrote:
Thank you for this perspective. It is very enlightening. I have long thought that if we were half as concerned about victims of sexual abuse as we are about ourselves when we are victims of financial fraud or theft, things would be a lot different. Your experienced eye to that parallel is very helpful!
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Lydia wrote:
We had frozen precipitation for the 3rd time this Winter. We’ve never had snow 3 times in a year in this part of Texas. ( Most of the frozen stuff was sleet and Texas Dept of Transportation closed many highways and bridges.) It was 17F yesterday and 18F this morning….The ” weather guessers” are saying 70F by this weekend…Odd weather year. First 51 inches of rain with Harvey, and now snow( sleet) three times?
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Max wrote:
I don’t think we’ve gotten all the information about the Germantown move, but from Andy’s statements and some info on twitter, my working theory is that he told no one there (except Chris I guess when they decided to take church planting together and start HP?).
I suspect if church hiring is anything like regular hiring, they checked his references and asked why he left his previous job…getting good references (!) and some answer (LIE) that he wanted to ‘move back home’.
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dee wrote:
… but under the guise of investigating the Andy Savage issue. Mr. Conlee’s letter to Highpoint members: “… we are engaging a qualified, independent third party organization to do a full audit of our church processes and Andy’s ministry.” It is implied (to me) that “Andy’s ministry” would include the last 20 years, reaching back to Texas.
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Andrea wrote:
The Deebs and their gang of Wartburgers have come into the world for such a time as this. Contrary to what others think (including many Highpoint members), we really do care about the Church … to the point of informing and warning others about trouble in dark corners. Many of the regular commenters on this blog speak from experience and are standing in the gap for other believers who have become ensared by some of the same things that took them off-track. You can’t help someone out if you are still in … you can be too close to see it clearly, and too slow to let it go. When you come out from it, you can see it.
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__
“There Must Be Higher Love?”
hmmm…
Dave,
Great insight.
♪♩♪♩ hum, hum, hum …Ooh, dem times they are a changin’…
ATB
Sòpy
;~)
– –
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Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:
Look on the bright side … no copperheads lurking in your strawberry patch.
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Muff Potter wrote:
I’ll even agree with that … the American church is just sick and wrong on many fronts.
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…we are not only doing things right, but we are doing right things’.
Does everything have to be a soundbite?
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Max wrote:
No snakes! Yay! But the stupid blackbirds (starlings?) found my bird feeder and started swarming it. Hubby kept throwing a coat on and running out in the cold (bout 6 F at the time) to shoot at them. I had the idea to pop the screen off the window over the kitchen sink so I could shoot out the window……. Hubby bumped me out of the way and took over. He’s been having himself a grand old time!
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@ Lea:
As I said, I view church differently. Other than that I believe in dealing with “individual cases” with due process. Not lumping all varieties into one big movement which I think will eventually harm nobody poor victims.
But we are discussing the Body of Christ. And it still amazes me to this day that very basic qualifications of ministry are totally ignored. The emphasis has been put on cheap grace, sinners sin so it’s expected, A quickie “I Repent” so am off the hook or if minister says sorry or their “wise counsel” dealt with it, it’s all gone and forgiven. Except not by the actual victim. Is this the Jesus they believe in?
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Beakerj wrote:
Easy for the not-so-brights to remember and repeat.
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@ Beakerj:
Yes.
I once knew a mega staff pastor who had his office wall covered with his pithy Christenese-Servant-leader soundbites. Installed at pew peon expense.
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@ K.D.:
You guys really aren’t used to the freezing, are you? We had to dig out coats and boots but at least have them just in case.
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@ Max:
This isn’t popular to say in church circles but there is something very hopeful about seeing justice pursued for the innocent.
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@ Ricco:
See, my auto correct changed “missional,” a fake word, into “missionary,” a real word.
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Dave A A wrote:
Actually, not all investigations did conclude that. CT. investigations didn’t. Basically, the legal eagles said the child was coached to think assault/inappropriate behavior occurred.
I think he did it…He married his other daughter adopted by Mia Darrow. Very Percy.
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unepetiteanana wrote:
It LOOKS really good but means NOTHING!
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Lea wrote:
Actually, I give Germantown Baptist Church no such benefit of the doubt. While it is possible that they did not know about Savage’s misconduct in TX and never dutifully asked, I do know that this past year Germantown Baptist has been embroiled over their own sexual misconduct of a leader and sent emails to all of the staff to button their lips and say nothing.
I know this from multiple sources who have been alerted to the emails and even know a longtime member/deacon there who left (too quietly, IMO) in disgust over it. Not more publicized yet, as it is a well-oiled cover-up machine.
At some point, rational people are going to have to conclude that modern American churches are simply wicked organizations!
#JusticeIsComing #GodIsNotPleased #Done
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@ AbuseCrusher:
Maybe Memphis is the new Babylon? ; ^ )
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Bridget wrote:
Yeah…not exactly in the mold of a samurai-like act of hari-kari after one dishonors oneself and his order, is it?
The concept of “honor” is totally lost on these charlatans. It has been replaced by ‘cheap grace” so they can move on the the next scam/victim.
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@ AbuseCrusher:
That is so disappointing, but sadly, not surprising. Seems to be SOP at churches these days.
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Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:
Worth considering, but I think it is pretty reflective of American church society at large. Memphis just happens to be a big city that acts like a small town–everyone is interconnected.
Plus, it’s horrible racial history has created much righteous desire to give charitably and see change, as well as much virtue-signaling in which one perpetuates the problems but makes a public show of being upright, noble and progressive.
Memphis (both through this principled desire to see and effect change, as well as the faux noblesse oblige/privileged guilt) is frequently listed as the most charitable city (in giving per capita) in America. Such open wallets attract a number of pulpit pimps and “non-profit” hustlers.
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AbuseCrusher wrote:
After reading your comment, I no longer give them the benefit of the doubt either. Church leaders who command staff to button their lips about another church leader’s sexual misconduct fall in the same bucket with all the other players in this sad saga.
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Deb wrote:
At this point, I have to pause and ask “Is Andy Savage so good at what he does that leaders at three churches have found it necessary to cover his sin and promote him up the ladder?”
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AbuseCrusher wrote:
If I recall correctly, Memphis has the highest crime rate in the nation, per capita.
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AbuseCrusher wrote:
I’ve been noticing some of those dumb drivers on social media recently. Case in point– and hopefully not too far off topic– recently a celebrity former mega-pastor from Anderson SC has been doing his darndest to out-cuss cussing pastor Mark Driscoll. He posts cussing to his Facebook, mostly in tirades against his former church and current critics, which has garnered him some push-back. So now he’s posted an article extolling the virtues of cussing. A number of commenters have begged him to stop, including Scriptures about “let no unwholesome talk” etc. And every time, the dumb-driver fans come in with “Judge Not”, “Let he who is without sin” “We’re all messes” “Leave him alone” “How many souls have YOU reached? Huh Huh Huh?”
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You might not have the latest info.
Cantey Hanger / Fort Worth TX
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Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:
True…which, I suspect, plays a significant part in Ben Ferguson (the guy who did the fake interview with Savage) living in Dallas and broadcasting his “local Memphis” politics radio show from there, unbeknownst to Memphis listeners.
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Dave A A wrote:
The desire for these former social outcasts to be “cool”, “relevant”, and “adored” by their fawning audience is what leads to things like Savage’s sexual assault of a 17 year old girl.
This pathetic desire needs to be called out, because the results are always tragic.
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Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:
Andy Savage interviewed in 2010 newspaper article about Memphis having lots of single women:
https://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-25967518.html
The Commercial Appeal (Memphis, TN) September 25, 2010
“An analysis of census data about the nation’s 50 largest cities reveals Memphis to be part of a weird patch of the country where single women are too plentiful. Not that single men are complaining.”
“‘At least once a month, I’ll ask women in our singles group how it’s going,’ said Andy Savage, a native Memphian and pastor at Highpoint Church who has led a singles ministry here for 10 years.”
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Dave A A wrote:
Would that be Perry Noble?
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@ refugee:
According to Wikipedia Brigitte Bardot is 83. She was called a “sex kitten” during her heyday. She is very much a product of her time.
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@ Max:
Yes
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@ AbuseCrusher:
True!
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@ Dave A A:
Oh, then do worry about his cussin’ … it’s the liquor talking.
Note: Perry Noble has been the subject of blog pieces at TWW. Check the archives for those; he’s quite a character.
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@ dee:
Why didn’t they hire Boz et al?
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Max wrote:
It’s to be expected with Muff, Pap, and Injun Joe, and even perversely obligatory I dare say. But Good Lord no, a preacher should not be cussing.
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Some 25 years ago I did some electrical engineering investigations for power companies as an independent investigator. At first it looked promising but then several cases in a row found against my clients. I learned at that relative early age there was NO future in “independent investigations” if your findings did not vindicate the guy paying your bill.
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@ Thersites:
So along comes http://www.andersonadvocates.com.
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@ Dale Rudiger:
From the link…
“Recent events have confirmed the need for wise, experienced, and independent counsel …”
Hmmm … ‘wise counsel’ … now where have we heard these words recently?
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Lydia wrote:
If I may shorten your sentence, some of us are concerned with movements. They may start off with noble intent but soon devolve as they become infested with agenda driven people, sometimes their agenda is just themselves. Wisdom is not found in easily dismissing critics of the movement de jour.
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I work in “Christian” PR. If he’s got a good firm behind him with some legal experience, my money’s on him quitting his church position and going back to school. “For a season” of course. They would take at least one “love offering” for his “tuition” but they’ll already have a short list of folks lined up that they’d believe may enroll him at no cost.
That’s my educated guess on the fallout.
As many have pointed out, all the “audits” are meaningless unless you’re talking about optics.
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Lydia wrote:
Why is this a concern? Everything from groping to rape of women by male coworkers or employers is immoral, creates a hostile work environment, and is sexual harassment.
Rape is worse than groping, but no women should have to deal with either on a job (or off the job).
The “Me Too” movement began to express any and all forms of sexism or sexual harassment in the workplace. It was never meant to be about the issue of rape only.
More women probably face lesser forms of sexual harassment at work than rape, so I think it’s important to discuss and resolve the lesser forms of sexual based violence or harassment against women.
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refugee wrote:
I saw that.
The other French actress who said similar things a few days ago apologized for her remarks (I don’t remember her name off hand).
I think it may say something that both women are over the age of 60. I think Bardot is now 80-something?
Women of previous generations were probably more heavily steeped in sexist ideas about relationships, dating, etc. than women after them are or were, and accustomed to putting up with it.
I have seen a lot of older women who oppose “Me Too” shoot back that because they had to endure sexist, handsy creeps on jobs back in the day, that today’s young women should as well and just get over it.
At least Bardot qualified her remarks to confine it to actresses only, she excluded women in other areas of employment.
(Not saying I agree with her on that either, but at least that makes it a tad less wrong-headed. Actresses shouldn’t have to feel pressured to perform sex acts to get work, either).
Most criticisms I’ve seen of “Me Too” have been based on straw men arguments, or misunderstandings of what it’s about and what women are communicating with that hash tag.
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Ricco wrote:
This is what makes it so easy for men to coerce women into performing sex acts the woman is not really ready for.
To me it is a form of sexual assault.
If your date is sending non-verbal cues she’s not really into having sex with you, yes, I’d say it’s on you, the man, to notice and respond accordingly (stop pressuring the woman for sex).
Christianity is really bad about this, they train us females from the time we’re kids that we’re to be little submissive doormats, being assertive is wrong, and I was taught to never say “no” to people.
That meant any time a guy came on to me and got flirty, I had to charm my way out of it. I could not come right out and say “no.”
Cultural and Christian teachings that de-emphasizes female agency, and tells girls it’s selfish to have boundaries or be assertive, puts women and girls in a very, very vulnerable position.
Personally, as far as work place sexual harassment, I am all for lumping less serious to more serious sexual harassment issues, and everything in between, under ‘Me Too.’ It all needs to be discussed.
I don’t know if a separate “Dating Assault” tag should be started to make that conversation easier to follow.
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Ricco wrote:
I also wanted to add this…
I’m a conservative, but most push back I see to ‘MeToo’ is coming from conservative commentators on TV or their Twitter accounts who are ‘Concern Trolling,’ or they often set up straw men arguments.
Other conservatives are at times, misrepresenting what “Me Too” is about.
Unfortunately, I think many conservatives are coming to view the “Me Too” hash trend conversation as being nothing but a liberal, secular, feminist movement, and so they are conditioned to automatically discredit it because they hate anything and everything they perceive as having to do with liberal feminists.
They are keen to present it as being an “anti men” movement, when it is no such thing.
“Me Too” is for women to discuss the sexual harassment at the hands of men, especially at work. It’s warped to see it being twisted into an “anti man” type thing when it is no such thing, it’s about how women have been hurt or exploited by some men in their careers.
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Lydia wrote:
I think you’re going to have to lump them all together, because there are underlying causes that are similar that drive the behaviors.
Male privilege exists. America is a patriarchal culture in and out of church.
All of this leads to a sense of entitlement in a lot of men, which I think leads some of them to think it’s acceptable to demand sexual acts from a women employee if she wants to keep her job, why some of them may grope a woman coworker and feel it’s their “right” to do so, etc.
Maybe determining punishment for each infraction should be done on a case- by- case basis, but not, IMO, trying to figure out why so many men act like this in the first place and how such behavior can be curtailed if not stopped.
Churches favor males and tell women to submit to male authority.
Churches buy into their sexist interpretation of the Bible from cultural assumptions about men and women (though they’ll never admit they’re doing this), so I don’t know if you can treat church and secular society as different entities on this topic.
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Jerome wrote:
I’m afraid that the Christian insistence on “equally yoked” plays a prominent factor in why so many Christian single women (who’d like to marry) stay single.
If you’re a Christian single women who’d like to marry, you really need to overcome the brainwashing you got in girlhood and your teens to only marry another Christian.
If you want to marry, you’re going to have to consider marrying outside your faith.
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Max wrote:
The last I heard, Noble was writing and selling a diet plan to the public. He was going to sell you his play list of rock songs he listens to when he works out at the gym.
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Thersites wrote:
I’ve been reading what critics of the Me Too movement have had to say, and so far, not only do many of them show a lack of understanding of what it’s about, but their arguments have not been convincing…
Nor has their Concern Trolling come true (usually centered around “but what about false allegations” pearl clutching)…
(I’ve not yet read of a wholly innocent man getting fired from a job immediately, with no investigation by his employer, after a single female employer chargers him with sexual harassment.
Even if such a scenario would occur, it’s no reason to trash the entire movement).
I think the danger is in my fellow conservatives wanting to quickly bury the ‘Me Too’ movement because it bothers them that women are finally speaking up and being believed (for a change).
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Daisy wrote:
Should read “employee” not “employer”
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Daisy wrote:
I stand by my statement and your attributing such motives only increases my skepticism.
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Here’s another thought. Conlee and Savage are both snakes. Conlee would have no problem throwing Savage under the bus to save his own skin. Time will tell.
Still praying for Jules. She has come against an evil network which determines to destroy her credibility.
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Daisy wrote:
It is way to soon to dismiss these concerns. This latest movement is very similar to what has played out on most universities in the last few years and yes there have been many documented cases of false accusations and ruined reputations. I’ve been around for a while and am very wary but I don’t want to turn this into a debate on metoo.
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@ Daisy:
Church is voluntary. There are decent men out there. Some are commenting here.
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D wrote:
Appreciate your insight!
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Jerome wrote:
Highpoint is in damage control mode. I think Andy’s been pushing boundaries for a while and it’s possible there have been other issues of this nature.
There was already an article about highpoint’s youth ministry at TWW.
This is starting to hit the bottom line ie. $$$. Book deals are being trashed, speaking engagements cancelled and I’ll bet giving & growth are down.
There’s rot underneath the shiny service. As the church tagline says “welcome home”
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___
“Predatory 501(c)3 Church Is A Reality.”
Disclamer: The abusive 501(c)3 church nightmares as outlined at the Wartburg Watch blog are not indicative of all christian churches in America. A general sampling over time has been made to bring public aware to a serious growing situation.
Christian ‘trends’ to Wartburg Watch means investigating and reporting on various forms of abuse present in 501(c)3 churches and non-profit organizations. It also provides a forum for victims of abuse to have a ‘voice’ and tell their stories and possibly obtain relief as well. Over time Wartburg Watch has become a go-to clearing house of resources and warning information aiding the interested individual(s) of the decision making processes of staying quite clear of church organizations and those within that abuse their members.
;~)
– –
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Lydia wrote:
Unfortunately I have had to try and explain this to a lot of church people lately. God took me back to the story of Zaccheus as a way of explaining what real repentance looks like.
I think the church has lost sight of the fact that repentance brings fruit. It brings change. Not perfection, but conviction of sin and a determination not to allow that in our lives any more. We have got confused. We know that we can never be good enough to earn our way into heaven, but we have taken that as an excuse to allow sin in our lives. Cheap grace, as you say.
I became a believer in a country where following Christ really costs something – reputation, employment, social inclusion, even your very life itself. I am forever thankful to God, not only for saving me, but for doing it in the way and place He did. It has given me open eyes to see the issues with the church in Western countries. I am thankful that I am not the only one, and that places like Wartburg Watch exist to call for true Christlikeness in His body.
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@ Daisy:
I do think the way TWW approaches these issues concerning Christendom is outstanding in several respects. They go to a lot of trouble to investigate individual cases and report as much detail as they can.
Btw: I have never mentioned “false accusations”. My concern with the entire movement “out there” has been with accusations meeting the standards of sexual harrassment of which I am familiar. And because certain rape victims are now being actively shunned.
My concerns and intentions are FOR victims I don’t want to see fall through the cracks now or in the future.
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Aunt Polly wrote:
I don’t know which concerns me more … a potty-mouth preacher or those who follow him! Clowns would have no stage if they didn’t have an audience. Regardless of how far you stretch being culturally-relevant, it is in never relevant to abuse the pulpit.
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Jack wrote:
This is a really good point. There was absolutely no question of defending his innocence. No public statement of, we don’t believe there’s any truth to this but we will cooperate with an investigation. No denial, no-one who really knows him saying “no way would Andy do something like this.” All I’ve seen has been just what you say, damage control, admitting to the minimum they think they can get away with, and then trying to belittle and patronise Jules to damage her credibility.
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D wrote:
He already has a marketing degree – he needs to be selling other things.
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Liz wrote:
Yes.
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@ Liz:
You are brave!
I have no idea how or when the “judgement” of good fruit/rotten fruit was thrown out of the picture. But it was.
I had forgotten “how” Zaccheus changed his ways. 🙂
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Thersites wrote:
If one doesn’t see this happening in the New Calvinist movement, they are spiritually blind.
Throughout history, most religious movements have offered a counterfeit way of doing church. The problem with our current state of affairs in the American church, is that the counterfeit has so overwhelmed Generations X, Y, and Z that they have no reference point for the genuine.
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JDV wrote:
Message control.
In the big picture, fortunately the Holy Spirit is not captive to any people team.
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Max wrote:
True, institutionally.
Fortunately, the orchestra tunes to the tuning fork, which would be the Bible and the Holy Spirit.
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Liz wrote:
Therein lies the problem. “Church people” should get it! Unfortunately, the church in America has drifted so far off track that its members no longer have a compass reading for true north.
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Max wrote:
The compass being the Word of God via the Holy Spirit and the Bible.
With the Savage situation, it would seem that as soon as a church/leadership does not tell the truth (i.e., using the word “incident”), they’ve veered off the path and joined the other team, the dark side. Or, maybe they’ve just shown their true colors, which side they are really on, despite their marketing efforts or masquerade.
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JYJames wrote:
Individuals with an ear to hear will play the right tune; they hear a clear sound. Jesus told us not to forsake the commandments of God for the teachings and traditions of men. Much of the church relies on men to interpret the Bible, rather than the Holy Spirit leading them to Truth. Indeed, the Holy Spirit has been relegated to the back pew in many corners of 21st century Christendom. Easy church doesn’t challenge your spirit, it feeds your flesh so you will keep coming back for more. The average church member in America would do well to go to a quiet place for a season with their Bible in hand and pray for the Holy Spirit to teach them. There’s too much noise in most churches to hear the Lord and find your way out of the maze of aberrant belief and practice.
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I am 99% sure that MinistrySafe is the firm that conducted the Child Sex Abuse training at my old church (The Village in Flower Mound TX) early last year. It was mandatory for everyone working with kids, both staff and volunteers, and lasted 3-3.5 hours.
It was educational, well-designed, disheartening, disgusting, and eye-opening. It helped increase my awareness substantially, and shed some light on events that occurred long ago for a couple of close family members.
The female attorney (name forgotten, probably the Kelly above) conducted the training. Her background is working with the victims, helping protect them, sue abusers, etc. She very explicitly discussed how background checks will not catch an abuser who has not been convicted yet, and how long most of them go and how many victims they have before getting convicted… and how churches are the last and most vulnerable area where abusers can get lightly-restricted access to kids without a lot of work, and thus will attract some who know they’d get caught in schools or other places. She used a bunch of real-world examples from actual abusers on tape, as well as hard data on a number of churches where pastors and senior staff have been prosecuted and jailed for failing to report abuse and trying to handle it in house. She is very, very, very firmly in favor of calling the police immediately, and made clear that handling it in house is never, ever a viable option. One case study I recalled had 2-3 people go to jail in Tulsa because they waited 72 hours to escalate/discuss before calling the police.
Based on the training, I’m very comfortable with her ability to get them to prevent any future issues, and handle any current/future issues well.
This does nothing for what happened 20 years ago. At best, I suspect she will advocate for Savage to not come back, and will probably point out just how badly everyone on the church staff 20 years ago screwed up.
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Ah, I have read through the comments and see the update. Not an audit, confirmed as MinistrySafe helping prevent future issues. That’s great but…not relevant to Andy Savage except tangentally.
Our training had a full house – probably around 500+ people, plus a later web version for people who could not attend in person on the 1 day it was offered.
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Max wrote:
Rock and roll groupies.
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@ Max:
Yes. Thanks.
“Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual, but as worldly—as infants in Christ. I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for solid food. In fact, you are still not ready, for you are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and dissension among you, are you not worldly? Are you not walking in the way of man?…” 1 Cor. 3:1,2,3 BSB
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JYJames wrote:
Whew! That would certainly preach in today’s church! (but few would be willing to hear and heed that sermon)
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Thersites wrote:
The value I see in the ‘movement’ is simply the sharing of things that have been happening for a long time, but kept in the dark.
And contrary to what has been said, the majority of the things I have seen have been serious. From rape and child abuse, to people I know in life who apparently had to leave not one but two jobs because of sexual interest of a boss.
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Daisy wrote:
My old coworker has told me some terrible stories about the ‘good old days’ and the way men treated her. I am quite glad things have changed. We actually had a conversation about all of this and there was some talk about ‘if it’s been a long time…’
My opinion is this. If it is a true thing that happened to you, there is no statute of limitations on telling your story. And this whole thing? Has been a bunch of women telling their stories. How can that be wrong?
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Lea wrote:
Indeed! And there is no statute of limitations in the Kingdom of God for a man to face the consequences of his sin, regardless of timelines which civil authorities might impose.
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Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:
When the rocking and the rolling stop, groupies leave the stadium.
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Mercy wrote:
The church kind of feels like they set it up as dual ownership by Conlee and Savage. It will be interesting to see if they are able to do that. I am with you, though.
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Liz wrote:
That was the thing that surprised me the most here. They tried to minimize it, but they did NOT minimize the basic facts or deny them. Very interesting.
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Lea wrote:
That’s a really good point, and you put your finger on what was bothering me as well, and I think this was just a tactic. He neither confirmed nor denied Jules’ accusations. If you are innocent, wouldn’t you say something like “she said I did this, that is absolutely false.” Instead, he admitted to “lesser charges” to avoid what she actually said. There can’t be repentance without honesty about what actually happened. If he was falsely accused, I think he would actually try to clear his name.
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Ricco wrote:
Taken from his marketing playbook and fully explained on his own website (i.e., the page about liars), if that is still up. Things tend to disappear once they are vetted.
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@ Jonathan:
Very interesting.
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Jonathan wrote:
Because the way some churches are set up, they invite predators and create vulnerability? There’s a structural issue?
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Jonathan wrote:
The conclusion that numerous voices in Christendom have come to.
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AbuseCrusher wrote:
Not to be pedantic, but that would be spelled “hara-kiri”, although that’s not the true traditional term for ritual suicide. The samurai called it “seppuku”.
But I think you’re right about Savage. He doesn’t strike me as the type to give up all that’s precious to him in order to do the right thing.
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Max wrote:
I’m wondering why he was hired as a youth pastor in the first place, especially given he wasn’t even out of college at the time. Was it because he was such a good example of Christ-like behavior and so knowledgeable about the Gospel? Or more likely, was it because he had a charming personality and good speaking ability?
People question whether he should ever be restored to ministry but I suspect his ministry was fraudulent to begin with.
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Lea wrote:
I share your concerns and welcome that people have more of an ability to bring things out that should not be hidden. That said I am still skeptical of movements. We were at this juncture over twenty years ago, one of the senators from my state was forced from office over the behaviors we are discussing here. This was later followed by the “year of the woman” and the phrase “men just don’t get it”. When the feminists of the day then rallied around a certain president guilty of abuse in his office and credible allegations of rape I concluded that, yes, I don’t get it.
So I am watching to see how this plays out and will speak out or otherwise do my part when there is wrongdoing but I decry verbiage that labels groups and pits them against each other and speaks of groups in terms of oppressed and oppressors. Yesterday I drove by a couple of power company guys out mucking about in a muddy cold ditch repairing broken wires, they didn’t seem to be exhibiting “male privilege” and it is in that context I felt a visceral dislike when the term was used here. Some may chime in with how women have it worse in some areas but such an exercise is wearying. I prefer to speak out and work against injustice but not within the context of a movement that all too often will eventually reflect someone else’s agenda.
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JYJames wrote:
Nope. Traditionally, the oboist blows open A and they tune from there.
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Thersites wrote:
You are painting with a broad brush here, though. Not all women, or femenists, rallied around that president.
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Bridget wrote:
Correct, I’ll amend it to say many prominent feminists. Sorry I was reacting to a broad brush generalization and made my own. Thanks for pointing it out.
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From Andy Savage’s blog: a portion of the vows he “typically uses” in wedding ceremonies:
Do you BRIDE take GROOM
…to be your lawfully wedded HUSBAND
…in the Covenant of marriage;
Will you be committed to HIM in every way;
Will you submit to HIM as unto the Lord;
Will you choose love and remain in this union
…for better or worse …for richer or poorer
…in sickness and in health …and forsaking all others
…until death do you part …to the Glory of Almighty God?”
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Translated from Christianese: THE FIX IS IN.
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Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:
Translated from Christianese:
Hubby is LORD. He holds the Whip! Praise Him! Praise Him! Praise Him!
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@ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):
How come it’s so one-directional?
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@ Muff Potter:
Here’s a link to the article. Gimme a sec and I’ll copy and paste vow for the groom!
http://www.andysavage.com/blog/posts/do-not-write-your-own-marriage-vows
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@ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):
“Do you GROOM take BRIDE
…to be your lawfully wedded WIFE
…in the Covenant of marriage;
Will you be committed to HER in every way;
Will you love HER as Christ loved the Church;
Will you choose love and remain in this union
…for better or worse …for richer or poorer
…in sickness and in health …and forsaking all others
…until death do you part …to the Glory of Almighty God?”
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@ Max, Respectfully, the religious organizations discussed here at The Wartburg Watch blog only represent selected abusive 501(c)3 organizations, or abusive individuals within them. Kind folks reading here might be getting the mistaken idea that all churches and the individuals who operate them are abusive as well.
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@ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):
Hey,
Where is the “organic moment” part??
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Thersites wrote:
Well, people are speaking now. I don’t care if you call it movement or not.
Sadly, some don’t want to hear it. I’m sure it will all fade away. That’s not a good thing through.
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@ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):
Bleck.
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Jeffrey J Chalmers wrote:
[3]14:31
Andy: …I did not force anything. I did not ask for anything. Uh, I did not request anything. This was a very mutual, organic moment that we shared.
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Max wrote:
Max, this is brilliant. This is exactly the reason I left the institutional church 20 years ago, and I very much doubt I’ll ever go back. The IC often hinders your walk with Jesus instead of helping.
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Andy tells us, repeatedly, that the events of that night were mutual, consensual, organic, and spontaneous.
Yet in his apology to Jules at [4]10:18 in the WREC footage, he says to Jules:
…My offer to talk with Jules is sincere. Um, if, if there’s, uh, if she desires an opportunity to, to meet, I’m available. Um, it breaks my heart that she has pain today and that I was a part of that. Um, if, if Jules is listening to this, uh, Jules, I want you to know, I am sorry, for what happened. Um, I’m sorry for not responding to your email, and not, not knowing how to respond to your email. Um, I’m sorry that you’ve had to relive these things these last few days, um, and I’m really sorry that you’ve lived with the pain of all this for so long.”
His apology doesn’t fit what he has confessed to.
“I’m sorry that you’ve had to relive these things” [mutual, organic, spontaneous “things”]… and I’m really sorry that you’ve lived with the pain of all this [the memory of our “mutual, consensual, organic, spontaneous” evening together].
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Uppity Bimbo wrote:
On the flip side, the IC can also provide a Reality Check if your “just ME and Jesus” walk – a result of American hyper-individualism – starts going off the rails. That’s why “us four, no more, Amen” house churches often get Cultic as Entropy sets in over time.
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Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:
“Of Course Not — ME MAN! RAWR! WOMAN, SUBMIT!”
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Lea wrote:
It is a good thing people people are speaking up now. I did not introduce the movement aspect, someone else did.
I’m not so sure it will fade away this time but if it does and we go back to hiding thing that shouldn’t be hidden that won’t be good.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Agreed on the reality check, too bad it doesn’t work too well in reverse when the institution goes off the rails and is impervious to reality. I am curious what hyper-individualism is, too bad we don’t have an open discussion thread anymore.
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Robert M wrote:
“a good example of Christ-like behavior”? … if so, that didn’t last long in Texas
“knowledgeable about the Gospel?” … if so, he didn’t live the part “walk in the Spirit and not the flesh”
“charming personality and good speaking ability?” … you can’t become mega if you don’t possess these traits; Highpoint is mega
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Connie wrote:
Excuse me while I have my own organic moment and barf…..
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Max wrote:
I have wondered why many (certain?) people use the word “Christ-like” instead of “Jesus-like” or “Jesus Christ-like”.
Christ > christos, simply meaning “anointed” ………. many have been anointed, but very, very few behave like Jesus.
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@ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):
Andy is a dude. That’s ‘christlike’ enough for churches!
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Lea wrote:
Driscoll used to preach that Jesus was a macho dude.
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JYJames wrote:
Schools have training on how sex abusers behave, grooming, signs to look for, random oversight, cameras, and require a degree or other specific effort to get in the door.
The average-sized American church (<200 people) doesn't have the money or resources to teach people what to look for, is happy for anyone who volunteers for anything – especially on Sunday mornings – and often operates on an ad hoc basis… and they probably don't have cameras. You can walk into a church and be one of just two people in a room with 8-12 kids of whatever age four weeks later if you can put up a good front. In a church, there are a lot more opportunities to get in good with the parents. Abusers don't just groom kids – they work the people around them, especially parents. A teacher isn't going to become a trusted family friend who can babysit, watch kids, take them camping, host movie nights, or whatever strategies are in play – someone from church can.
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@ Connie:
Doublespeak. Forked tongue.
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Max wrote:
And I heard that Jesus was my homeboy too. Ugh.
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Jonathan wrote:
This is so true!
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Jonathan wrote:
You’ve just described tens of thousands of Southern Baptist churches. In some of those, our children are exposed this very day to youth leaders who don’t have Jesus on their mind.
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Jonathan wrote:
Granted, I live in a rural area where, for the most part, everybody knows everybody. That being said, as a VBS teacher, I have been the only adult in a classroom with 20 kids. In the churches in my area, we almost always have only one adult in SS classes, except for nursery.
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___
Solutions: “2018, A Good Offensive Strategy, Perhaps?”
hmmm…
Wartburg Watch, Generalizations are damaging. Once again, not all -200 count and below 501(c)3 Christian churches entertain potential abusers or hazardous environments. Wartburg Watch would do well aside from identifying 501(c)3 organizations and individuals which do exhibit abuse or offend their parishioners with the lack of safeguards, which you do individually well, but bring adequate solutions as well, so that those reading here can be briefed on what parishioners should look for in an healthy 501(c)3 church, subjective as it may be. As you are well aware, it is not the size of your church that matters, but the health of it. Transparency issues such as, are your leaders trained? Are they held accountable? Are they focused on safety issues, and the selection process, back ground investigations, training, the proper procedures in place and strictly enforced. Wartburg Watch would do well to bring these valuable, extensively documented tools further to bare as time and resources permit, rendering your public service blog a greater reach and utilization.
Thank you for your kind invitation here for the greater good,
“…the gates of hell shall not prevail…” -Jesus
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2UUpeImcnqA
In His service,
ATB
Sòpwith
;~)
– –
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Sòpwith wrote:
I don’t think it works that way. Whether anybody likes it or not, people have to want to be helped to accept or seek help. And the first step to that is to admit you might have a problem now or in the future.
There are organizations, like SNAP, who can teach churches how to protect themselves from predators. But like with Highpoint, often those predators have already installed themselves in the top positions. They’re not going to honestly seek protection from predators, because they would be the problem. They’re going to hire companies to “audit” them who are going to not actually find or address the real problems–because they are the problem.
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__
Side b: “A Harbinger Of Things To Come, Perhaps?”
hmmm…
Ishy,
Look both ways before you cross the street, is still good advice.
*
“In the typical Chilean family, parents (now) think twice before sending their kids to Catholic school because you never know what is going to happen…” -Patricio Navia, political science professor at Diego Portales University in Santiago, Chile. 19Jan18
—
https://www.apnews.com/77f4a7e9779940a48e2347c852516d3c/Pope-shocks-Chile-by-accusing-sex-abuse-victims-of-slander
🙁
– –
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___
“The Bible calls for pastors that sin to be rebuked before all so that the others will fear (1Timothy 5:20). That’s absolute truth, and in other expressions, especially contemporary ones, there would be a data base to warn other churches about ‘spiritually enlightened’ pedophiles (which to date no denomination has agreed to do). “ -Paul M. Dohse Sr.
;~)
– –
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__
“Is The 501(c)3 Church Reaping What She Has Sown, Perhaps?”
hmmm…
Occasionally, the clouds of oppression and abuse part, fleeting rays of light strike the parishioner’s mind and they realize once again that pursuing truth is in their best interest. The results are consistent: life springs up again, suffering subsides, and prosperity emerges. It would make sense that the parishioner should persist in the cause and effect of this action, expanding and growing as far as their understanding should carry them. But no, with striking regularity, the parishioner is blindly lead in a ‘war’ against that very truth and exchanges it for a lie. In short order the hard won life, blessings and religious freedom shrinks back into the primordial haze of collective 501(c)3 religious tribal degradation where resistance has become quite futile.
(sadface)
*
♪♩♪♩ hum, hum, hum …planted firmly by the stream of ‘living water’…
ATB
Sòpy
—
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lUZ4H8W5SEw
;~)
– –
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Re: Under 200 ASA churches
All of the churches that I’ve attended regularly in the past 20 years or so have been under 200. Except one, all of them also had strong child protection policies and trained and checked their volunteers. I’m kind of a stickler about that because of my own education and background. The only one that I would say didn’t have a strong one claimed that they did, but in reality, they didn’t follow through on their claimed policies.
A church can hardly claim that they have a protection policy if they aren’t going to follow it when it counts.