David Platt May Be Many Things But He Will Not Be a Pastor to the People at McLean Bible Church

The role of the pastor is to embody the gospel. And of course to get it embodied, which you can only do with individuals, not in the abstract.-Eugene H. Peterson link


Wikipedia

What is a good pastor?

I am thankful to a special friend who invited me to take a course on Pastoral Leadership offered by a conservative seminary. He thought it might help me to understand what good seminaries teach about being a pastor. He also said that my observations of being a church member in a number of churches would be helpful to pastors as well. Last evening he stressed the four things a pastor must do or exhibit.

  1. Humility
    Within this context he said the a pastor must exhibit an authority based on influence not an authority based on demand.
  2. Service
    He said that a good pastor must make the hospital calls along with other sorts of visitation. He should get specific training in how to deal with issues such as suicide.
  3. Focus on others; not yourself
  4. Love those in your church.

The Gospel Coalition recently posted Pastor, Strive to Learn Their Names written by Benjamin Vrbicek. At first I chuckled because it seems obvious to me that pastors who should know the names of those in their congregation. However, imagine being the pastor of a mega church. How in the world can they ever learn the names of their people. They cannot-plain and simple.

The reason we should learn names is twofold. First, a general reason: God has always existed in relationship—the loving relationship of Father, Son, and Spirit. And because we are made in God’s image and likeness, it’s not good for us to be alone. I believe this is the main reason why people desire to be where everyone knows their name, as in the tagline from the old show Cheers. God designed us for community.

David Platt is the new teaching *pastor* of McLean Bible Church while continuing to be the head of the International Missions Board of the SBC.

Earlier this year, Platt went to McLean Bible Church as in interim pastor. It looks like he is staying on.

According to Christianity Today:

This week, it was announced that David Platt will soon be voted on to be the new teaching pastor at McLean Bible Church. (I first learned of it from SBC This Week.)

Based on social media, not everyone is excited about it. McLean is new to the Southern Baptist Convention. Platt and his team are also reorganizing the board and the IMB is going through significant change.

McLean Bible Church, originally nondenominational, is a recent member of the Southern Baptist Convention. It is a mega church in the DC area with 5 locations and claims an attendance of 13,000 each weekend. Also, there are close ties to the SBC since the NAMB (North American Mission Board) runs their church planting efforts out of McLean.

MBC initially became a cooperating church in 2016 when it became the hub for the North American Mission Board’s church-planting efforts in the Washington, D.C., area.

What exatly is McLean Bible Church looking for in a pastor?

McLean Bible Church was obviously looking for a high profile name to be their teaching pastor. Catching a celebrity pastor is the latest craze amongst growing churches with money an whoe leadership is seeking prestige. So what's the deal? How does this work?

According to SBC This Week he is only going to teach (give sermons) and will not do anything else in the church. He also is not going to get a salary for this new position.

The elders of McLean Bible Church (MBC) have asked Dr. David Platt to consider becoming Pastor-Teacher of the church, a title used in the church’s constitution to describe the pastor whose primary duty is “to preach and teach the Word of God.” As Pastor-Teacher (or Teaching Pastor), Dr. Platt would serve alongside other pastors in the church including Dale Sutherland, who is the Lead Pastor responsible for overall day-to-day leadership in the church. Dr. Platt would serve as Teaching Pastor, not Senior Pastor, he would not be involved in overall day-to-day leadership in the church, and he would not receive a salary for his role at MBC.

How do the trustees of the IMB feel about this?

Here is a cautious, rather underwhelming, statement from the trustees att the IMB:

“Our president, Dr. David Platt, has expressed a deep sense of calling to serve as teaching pastor of McLean Bible Church while also continuing to lead the International Mission Board,” Dilbeck said. “We respect Dr. Platt and his sense of the Lord’s leading; and we recognize our responsibility to hold him accountable for his work leading the International Mission Board. Over the coming months, while Dr. Platt serves as teaching pastor for McLean Bible Church, the trustees of the International Mission Board will evaluate Dr. Platt’s fulfillment of his responsibilities as IMB president. Trustees also will evaluate McLean’s level of partnership with the Southern Baptist Convention. We plan to revisit this matter in our February trustee meeting.”

Platt has stated he spends 20-25 hours a week preparing for one sermon. Yet his time on his weekend was supposed to be for him to spend with his family.

According to SBC This Week, he has all sorts of arrangements so he can *serve* his family.  You see, he gets to go to church with them and then get up and preach/teach.

As Teaching Pastor at MBC, Dr. Platt would continue the pattern of being with his family in this local church approximately 65% of his weekends. He also will continue to spend 35% of his weekends traveling domestically and internationally carrying out IMB responsibilities and preaching in Southern Baptist churches, in addition to his extensive travel during the week.

David Platt states that he spends 20-25 hours preparing for one sermon.

 Preparation time can't look the same for that, but only having to preach one text a week gives me the liberty and the opportunity to spend between 20 and 25 hours—sometimes less, sometimes more—in the text during the week.

Ed Stetzer thinks this is all hunky dory because he did the same sort of thing.

What did Ed do?

(PS: We would like to know how many of Ed Stetzer church plants survived….It's a little hard to get that number…)

Stetzer wrote an article for Christianity Today about Platt's new position. In David Platt to Be a Teaching Pastor—Is it a Bridge Too Far for the IMB President? Before we get into this post, let's take a look back at the views that Ed Stetzer had about his former pastoral role in churches. In a TWW post Ed Stetzer and the Four Fence Posts that Define His Ministry, Stetzer explained what he did and did not do as a bi-vocational pastor. We were rather shocked about his attitude toward pastoring.

"At Grace Church, there are three things and ONLY three things that I do: I meet with the staff/apprentices, I preach about 70% of the time, and I lead a small group in my home.

One of the benefits this boundary has brought to our church is that we are very clearly not a pastor-centered church. I'm very upfront with my role to my church. I explain I can't do funerals, visits, phone calls, or meetings. This leaves the door wide open for our congregation to see areas of leadership where they are needed, and to respond accordingly."

Keeping that statement in mind, what does he say about Platt's new role at teaching pastor?

….Now, maybe I have a stake in this because I’ve been walking this kind of bridge for years, although not while leading the world’s largest protestant, denominational missions agency. But, and this is key: most of the day-to-day organizational leadership in large organizations and churches is done by choosing good people in both places. I’ve seen it work well.

….The idea that the person doing the preaching must be the same person doing the ministering is really born of later parish systems, not the New Testament text.

Thus, the model in the New Testament is shared leadership.

My assessment of David Platt as teaching pastor.

  • He is not a pastor, merely a talking head. His schedule is ridiculous.
    -He has no time to spend getting to know his congregation. Assuming his job is full time at the IMB, which involves traveling all over the place, we can assume that he spends 60+ week or more doing that.
    -Unless he isn't telling the truth, we know he spends at least 20 hours prepping for his sermon.
    -Then he must deliver it and pretend he is *involved* at McLean when he really isn't. How much time does that take?
    -Then he writes lots of books. Can you imagine how much time that takes?
    -He speaks at conferences all over the place.
    -He puts together podcasts.
    -He has an active Facebook account.
    -He is active on Twitter.
    -He has an active blog.
    -He writes posts for The Gospel Coalition.
  • He has a wife and 4 kids.
    'Nuff said.
  • He cannot do all of these things well so something big is going to give
  • He will never know the names of the members of his church.
  • He will preach without being involved in his church-unless he is cheating in other areas.
  • Call him a speaker, not a pastor.
    He will not ever give his heart to the church: no funerals (unless they are big names?), no hospital visits, etc.
  • He does not have time to love the people in his church so how can he preach to them?
    I hope he has time to love his family. And the IMB? No way he can do it all. If he says he can, then he is deceiving himself and others. And no one better say that "he spends quality time, not quantity time." Give me a break.

There is something missing here. Far too many people are looking for a celebrity so they can say "We go to David Platt's church." What does this mean? Sadly, nothing. Anyone can listen to Platt on podcasts. They will know him just as well as his church will know him which is not at all.

A final thought:  "Bill, this is Christ's body, broken for you.​"

I am sure David Platt is a nice guy. I visited his church a number of times when my kids were in college in Birmingham. But he is not a pastor at McLean

My husband said something that has stuck with me the past few months. We are in a church in which the pastors do show love and humility. One evening, after communion, my husband was strangely silent when we got in the car. He turned to me and said "Pastor X called me by my names tonight when he handed me the bread. He said "Bill, this is Christ's body, broken for you." I have NEVER had anyone do that in communion before. He actually knew my name and used it." My husband had tears in his eyes.

Folks, find a church in which you have a real pastor, not a talking head who offers nothing different than a podcast Find a pastor who knows your names and will come and sit with you when you are in the hospital. Find a pastor who will do your funeral and not punt it to the third tier pastoral staff. Find a church in which the pastor knows you name and truly cares about you-not an abstract you who is just a part of a mass of faces. In oterh words, find a real church.

Comments

David Platt May Be Many Things But He Will Not Be a Pastor to the People at McLean Bible Church — 316 Comments


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    First?


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    Deb
    Check you text messages.


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    Another reason the SBC is a joke. I still want to know the story of the 1,000 SBC missionaries that were called home.


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    4


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    @ mot: Me too!


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    Deb wrote:

    @ mot: Me too!

    It has been nothing but crickets since this major event happened. Everyone that knows anything must have taken a vow of silence.


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    This post has many thoughtful insights, especially the character qualities needed to be a loving pastor. Like your husband, I am deeply touched when a pastor knows my name & uses it in a kind way. Sometimes because of past hurts in churches, when I go to a church service, I just want to be an anonymous person who sits in the back. But I know I can’t do that forever. For me personally, it takes faith to be “known” in a church. I’m not there yet.


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    On the Healing Journey wrote:

    But I know I can’t do that forever. For me personally, it takes faith to be “known” in a church. I’m not there yet.

    It took us two years in this church to feel comfortable. We always sit in the back and still do.


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    Wow, that’s a ridiculous number of roles he’s taking on. I’m not sure what title is appropriate for the job he’ll do there (Lecturer? Speaker?) but “Pastor” is certainly not it.

    Are people these days accustomed to this style of “church” where they’re just a number and only there to listen to someone completely detached from their lives speak to them for 45 minutes or so? I don’t understand the appeal in attending something like that.


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    First thought is David Platt misses having a large live audience every week. Second thought is the IMB Presidency is a full-time job which God also “called” him to and God is not as flakey as David Platt appears to be. Third thought is what is wrong with Trustees in the SBC that they cannot act? “You want to be a prima donna with a weekend gig? OK, Don’t let the door hit your tutu on the way out!” Seriously, is this Hollywood or the church of Jesus Christ?

    Personally, this is sad because we have a long-ago connection to McLean Bible. What I see happening is horrifying. With the IMB and the NAMB and 9Marks and ERLC there, it sure looks like there will be political consolidation in D.C. of what used to be known as the SBC. I’m sure the new name for the SBC has already been determined because “Southern” and “Baptist” and “Convention” is not going to work. I wonder when


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    First thought is David Platt misses having a large live audience every week. Second thought is the IMB Presidency is a full-time job which God also “called” him to and God is not as flakey as David Platt appears to be. Third thought is what is wrong with Trustees in the SBC that they cannot act? “You want to be a prima donna with a weekend gig? OK, Don’t let the door hit your tutu on the way out!” Seriously, is this Hollywood or the church of Jesus Christ?

    Personally, this is sad because we have a long-ago connection to McLean Bible. What I see happening is horrifying. With the IMB and the NAMB and 9Marks and ERLC there, it sure looks like there will be political consolidation in D.C. of what used to be known as the SBC. I’m sure the new name for the SBC has already been determined because “Southern” and “Baptist” and “Convention” is not going to work. I wonder when they will roll it out.


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    “The model in the New Testament was shared leadership.” You’re modeling New Testament now? In what respects? The “shared leadership” not taking full-time pay checks from their fellow believers, perhaps? Meeting in homes instead of large “church buildings”? Day-to-day leaders of the church living and working shoulder-to-shoulder with all the “one anothers”? Local believers who had plenty sharing personally with other local believers who had need? Personally collecting and sending funds from one local body of believers to a non-local body of believers who were in need? What about the way New Testament leaders and teachers apparently worked to provide their own physical sustenance, so they would not be burdensome on the believers, oh, say, tent-making, for example? That kind of New Testament model?

    Or do you mean the Mega New Testament Church model, in which the large full-time staff are comfortably paid wages from the offering baskets of the local believers (believers that they must manage) especially the ones who are “sharing” leadership with them on a non-paid basis, fitting it around the hours they work to earn money to live. Could you quote me some specific passages on that? My concordance doesn’t include an entry for “paid pastor”.

    I’m fine with paying staff, pastors, etc, but don’t insist there’s a New Testament mandate for the paid career program we see. Unless you show me some passages that demonstrate it was the norm. Please preface it with, “As the New Testament CLEARLY shows in XYZ…”


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    Sorry for the duplicate!


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    Platt has always been a figurehead at the IMB, in my opinion. He was the celebrity Pastor who would get the young men excited. My guess is he travels around and give speeches.

    His church, brookhills, (or whatever the name) was not even involved in the Cooperative program when he was appointed. In fact, upon being appointed, Platt actually said, “I now see the beauty of the CP”.

    Those words are astonishing to anyone who’s been around the SBC for years.

    There is definitely something missing in this entire scenario. It’s totally untenable but yet I have seen so many in high positions double dip or even have businesses on the side that enrich them even more.

    My guess is there’s some bigger strategy going on. The trustee statement is rather curious, too.

    I hate all this back room deception and gaming. There is absolutely nothing of Jesus Christ in any of it.

    Maybe another big financial crisis is coming because the money is not rolling in and he wants a way out.


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    @ Tree:
    They throw that stuff out there expecting the sheeple to believe them. They said it’s a new testament model– so it is.


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    Lydia wrote:

    Maybe another big financial crisis is coming because the money is not rolling in and he wants a way out.

    Possibly a merger of IMB and NAMB which would be useful bury several issues *and* create new opportunities. Of course, if the Trustees were transparent, we would not be speculating. And Platt would be doing the job he was hired to do and the Trustees would be doing their jobs as well.


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    @ Gram3:
    My advice to everyone is to stop giving them money. I promote the Salvation Army over the SBC. Boy did that make some pastors extremely mad. 🙂

    I mean, they were so mad I have no doubt they’re trying to find me.


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    Can someone explain to me how you can spend 20-25 hours a week preparing a sermon? I lead meetings as part of my job in problem management; I’m generally expected to do two or three a week. The meetings are usually an hour long. They involve prep time, sometimes some fairly in-depth research and number crunching with a spreadsheet when I have to bring in a group to talk over why they have so many issues in a six month period or why their change requests failed more often than the average. But even on the most complicated issues, I’ve never spent 20-25 hours just preparing for a meeting. Part of it is because I’ve done this job for over a decade. I generally know what to expect, altho’ I’ve had my share of surprises–my motto is “there is no such thing as a straightforward issue”.

    I am certainly not saying that my job is equivalent to giving a sermon at church but I do have to lead the meeting, I have to ask the right questions and ferret out information that people may be unwilling to give (but we tell them up front, “this is not a fault-finding exercise”). I’m the “face” of my department to other groups within the enterprise and I walk a fine line between encouraging people to put all their cards on the table but then subsequently recommending steps these groups should take to keep their particular issue from occurring again.

    So, again, how is this guy spending 20-25 hours a week on a sermon? I have a list of questions, maybe some information from the impacted group, a Reason for Outage, problem tickets and that sort of thing to work from, and I don’t spend that much time. Is he doing word studies on every single Greek word? (I am not making fun of word studies, I would love love love to have access to a full bells and whistles version of Logos software.) But what is he doing? Is he polishing his sermons so thoroughly they can seamlessly make the transition to book format? *looks skyward, whistles*


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    Yeah, my husband and I are not fans of this recent development. McLean Bible Church is the church of my childhood (Lon Solomon is a personal family friend) and my husband came to know Christ at MBC. We are disgusted that it’s gone neo-Cal and SBC. My husband said this evening that it’s like a plague and now even once-immune MBC is falling victim to it. So disheartening.


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    It’s probably part of his Radical mantra – live and give until you are no longer sane and totally burn out. Then have an affair and take a sabatical for recovery purposes while your church still pays you.


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    This concern was raised when Platt took the position at the mission board. Here’s the line he gave then when questioned about the issue:

    http://www.bpnews.net/43260/www.bpnews.net/43240/cooperation-central-to-platts-vision-at-imb

    On August 27, 2014, Platt spoke “with Baptist media representatives in a telephone press conference”:

    Brandon Pickett of Virginia asked Platt about “taking full-time role as the president of the IMB and transitioning out as a pastor.”

    Platt assured:

    “I’m going to preach at Brook Hills for the next three Sundays….after I finish preaching at Brook Hills….my full energies will shift to full-on IMB….Sept. 14, that will be my last Sunday at Brook Hills, and then we’ll begin to shift totally after that.”


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    Perhaps David Platt can get some pointers from Kevin DeYoung. One of the 16 books DeYoung has authored is titled “Crazy Busy.” DeYoung is eminently qualified to write on the subject. He and his wife have 7 children. Additionally, DeYoung is a member of The Gospel Coalition Council and writes frequent articles for their blog, is the Senior pastor of Christ Covenant Church in Matthews, North Carolina, is an active member of the celebrity Christian conference circuit, teaches at Reformed Seminary, and is working on his Ph.D.

    As for spending 20-25 hours to prepare a sermon, that may be the case with a “real” pastor, but in my research I have found it is rarely the case with the busy celebrity preachers. Both Mark Driscoll and Matt Chandler at one time were spokesmen for Docent – a company you pay to research and write sermons for you. https://thouarttheman.org/2014/03/11/docent-group-should-dump-driscoll-and-hire-mahaney/

    I have shown that Mack Stiles, C.J. Mahaney and Wayne Grudem repeatedly regurgitate the same few sermons time after time. (Yet Mahaney refers to the “hours and hours and hours and hours and hours” it takes to prepare sermon!) My guess is most celebrity preachers do likewise. While Platt will not be able to repeatedly use a handful of “go to” sermons at his church he will be able to utilize his notes from years of preaching at “The Church at Brook Hills.”

    While Platt may not technically be drawing a salary from McLean Bible Church my guess is that in a church of that size there are some wealthy members who are providing some sort of financial renumeration to Platt. (Cars, housing, funding for private schooling for his children, etc.)


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    “Call him a speaker, not a pastor.”

    I think the title of “pastor” has lost its meaning. It has been assigned to any imaginable paid position in an institutional church.

    Head pastor, lead pastor, teaching pastor, senior pastor, preaching pastor, associate pastor, assistant pastor, worship pastor, music pastor, youth pastor, college pastor, building services pastor, executive pastor …

    While many take much pride in their pastor title I would be embarrassed at the current level of absurdity. I’ve even seen “multi-media pastor”.


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    LOL at Dee telling Deb to check her text messages. I literally LOLed.

    When I went to the CBE conference in Florida recently, we had communion and the person serving me communion said “Julie Anne, this is the Body of Christ.” Now, of course, it wasn’t as special as Bill’s because this woman didn’t know me except from the weekend, but I noticed how personal it felt. I was really moved. I wholeheartedly agree with this:

    “Folks, find a church in which you have a real pastor, not a talking head who offers nothing different than a podcast Find a pastor who knows your names and will come and sit with you when you are in the hospital. Find a pastor who will do your funeral and not punt it to the third tier pastoral staff. Find a church in which the pastor knows you name and truly cares about you-not an abstract you who is just a part of a mass of faces. In oterh words, find a real church.”


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    No disrespect to the multitude of honest, hard working “real” pastors who labor faithfully, week in and week out in normal churches with an average of 100-200 in attendance each week. These pastors faithfully execute the responsibilities of their jobs, but those who so desire can carve out a fairly cushy lifestyle as a pastor.

    I did a little research of John Folmar, my ex-pastor in Dubai, in 2013, the year I quit. Of the available 52 weekly Friday morning sermons (church in the UAE is held on Friday, Sunday is the first day of the work week) Folmar spoke at exactly half of them – 26. I will grant you that he spoke at other church in the UAE and other countries during some of those weeks, but the fact is he is paid a salary by the UCCD members to be the senior pastor at their church.

    Another example is P.J. Smyth of Covenant Life Church. (Formerly pastored by Joshua Harris and C.J. Mahaney.) Smyth started preaching at CLC on January 8, 2017. Smyth has preached 20 out of a possible 35 Sundays since he was hired! He had an 8 week hiatus in July and August, nice work if you can get it. I don’t know of any other job where an employee is granted 2 months of vacation after working for 6 months. (And to be accurate, he preached only 20 of 25 weeks in his first 6 months on the job, so he has effectively had 3 months off in his first 8 months of his job.)

    Amazing to me is that these same preachers will harangue the members to up their donations to meet budget shortfalls! More amazing is members will do so.

    He has spent some of those weeks off preaching at “Advance” conferences. This is a network of churches Smyth started while preaching in South Africa and is attempting to expand into the USA, but again, it doesn’t appear to me that CLC members are getting an honest day’s work for the salary they are paying Smyth, but the average member doesn’t seem overly concerned about that.


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    My wife just got home from her evening shift & I put in overtime. The reason I put in ot was so a life saving medical test could be approved for a 2 year old child.
    I’m tired and normally pastor shenanigans give me a chuckle, but reading about these clowns just irks me tonight.
    The amount of cash these guys make for their seminaries & their megachurches…
    The church has completely lost its relevance.


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    Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:

    Can someone explain to me how you can spend 20-25 hours a week preparing a sermon?

    Many don’t. They just say they do. Many who say this buy sermon services to write their sermons for them.

    I seriously have heard the exact same sermon at three churches, with the same title and even the same examples, and all of those pastors boasted about the amount of time they spent writing their sermons. Nope.

    Of course, a lot of people in their church have no idea their pastor has somebody else write their sermons and they don’t go elsewhere very often, so they wouldn’t realize it. These services advertised themselves via students in seminary, passing around flyers and CDs. And they are extremely popular with Baptist pastors, but most Baptists have no idea they even exist.


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    Lydia wrote:

    the name) was not even involved in the Cooperative program when he was appointed. In fact, upon being appointed, Platt actually said, “I now see the beauty of the CP”.

    There’s always beauty in a cushy paycheck.


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    @ Thersites:

    Exactly! “Pastor” has lost its meaning entirely, much like the terms “gospel” and “biblical”. My impression is that these guys truly have no intention to get to know or love anyone–they only desire to lead! It is only a money and power grab for them.

    Whenever I feel ashamed to be a Southern Baptist because of the reputation and antics of these snake oil salesmen, I have to remind myself that they are clearly NOT Southern Baptists…they have only ridden on the coat tails of the SBC to seize fame and fortune. Hopefully they will all burn themselves out by being ‘crazy busy’ like Platt and go away!


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    Well, I think it’s clear what the problem is. It seems to me that you’re all just looking for the perfect church.

    What I would say is, if you ever find the perfect church, don’t join – you’ll spoil it.

    Yours sincerely,

    Arnold Smartarse


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    Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:

    Can someone explain to me how you can spend 20-25 hours a week preparing a sermon?

    I expect your educated guess is as good as mine, but ISTM you spend 20-25 hours preparing a sermon if you’ve not much else to do. Parkinson’s Law (Wiki article here for any Wartburgers at a loose end with 5 minutes to spare).

    I am certainly not saying that my job is equivalent to giving a sermon at church

    Absolutely not. You have an actual job with many other responsibilities. As does a real paster, of course.


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    Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    No disrespect to the multitude of honest, hard working “real” pastors who labor faithfully, week in and week out in normal churches with an average of 100-200 in attendance each week. These pastors faithfully execute the responsibilities of their jobs…

    And therein lies the rub. These pastors (without quotation marks) don’t double-dip or moonlight as motivational speakers and writers, or publicise themselves, or invest their time in furthering their careers by making “their” (quotes) “churches” (more quotes) into conference centres at which they can speak. So we rarely, if ever, get to hear about them.

    And yet they’re the very people we should be hearing about, because they are setting an example worth following.


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    Root 66 wrote:

    Whenever I feel ashamed to be a Southern Baptist because of the reputation and antics of these snake oil salesmen, I have to remind myself that they are clearly NOT Southern Baptists…they have only ridden on the coat tails of the SBC to seize fame and fortune. Hopefully they will all burn themselves out by being ‘crazy busy’ like Platt and go away!

    My sentiments as well.


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    I briefly attended McLean Bible Church, pastored by Lon Solomon, back in the mid-1980s. The non-denominational fellowship had its services in I think it was the auditorium of a middle school in McLean, VA. As I recall, the teaching was Bible-based and for the most part spot on. At that time, there did not seem to be any attempt to become a mega-church. For a variety of reasons, I ended up attending a different fellowship – but at that time had nothing bad to say about my experience at McLean.

    Flash forward about 20 years. I met a lady online and we agreed to meet at McLean Bible Church, where she attended, for their morning service and then have lunch afterward. Imagine my surprise when I arrived there to find that (a) they had moved way down US Route 7 to (b) an unimaginably large campus complete with coffee shop, gym, etc., you get the picture. When I entered the state of the art auditorium, I found myself absorbed in a sea of multiple thousands of attendees at one of the multiple Sunday services. Mr. or Dr., don’t remember which, Solomon preached (I wouldn’t quite call it “teached”) and all I remember from the sermon was “money, money money”. Quite a change in 20 years.

    I point all this out – and this is just one man’s opinion – to say that it seems McLean Bible Church sort of lost its way long before all this David Platt stuff came up.

    I offer this link to Lon Solomon’s 2017 letter to the congregation where he announces stepping down as “senior and teaching pastor”. You can read between the lines I’m sure and see how the David Platt thing fits into all of this. Reading the letter, it strikes me also that the elders etc. are picking whoever the replacement is rather than a pastoral search committee made up of actual members. Sort of forcing the choice on the people is what it looks like to me.

    https://www.mcleanbible.org/blog/letter-lon-solomon

    Sorry to be so long winded but it annoys me to no end to see a ministry that I personally experienced turn into something so – at least to me – foreign to a Biblical standard of “fellowship”.


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    The pastor at a church we attend is going to get a three month sabbatical in Jan. They plan on filling his role with members speaking and an occasional pastor from another related church. Every eight years the denomination "requires it". I want to know when did my husband or me get a vacation from life. It certainly wasn't dealing with parents extreme mental illness for 30 years, health problems of both sets of departed parents raising my sister when we had a new baby and the teenage junk she put us thu, it certainly wasn't when my husband lost the use of arm to a accident and spent a year at p.t , it certainly wasn't when my accident caused me a bum leg and I still do my housework dragging it around. it wasn't when we spent 10 years in inter city ministry and certainly not the 60 hour week my husband put in hoping on day his boss will finally honour his words and we can buy in to the company after using his name in a limited parntership where due to the financial mess of '08 we haven't seen a bit of profit but have had insurance go up 40 percent. He needs a vacation, so do I from LIFE.


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    “Platt and his team are also reorganizing the board and the IMB is going through significant change.”

    He has a “team”?


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    This is indirectly related to this topic….I am questioning the current practice of “satellite” churches….where a church starts another location with the “pastor” appearing via webcam. What’s up with this? Cheaper….only pay one pastor and get double the offerings? How can you “pastor” a church if you don’t meet the sheep???? A current trend where I live….sounds stupid to me.


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    @ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):

    And it did help him escape that “radical” existence he taught.


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    @ Bill:

    Thanks for chiming in! I found your comment fascinating.

    I know of a Bible church in our area (the Triangle – Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill) where it appears the elders, not the congregation, hand-picked the pastor. Once the new pastor arrived, it quickly went Neo-Cal. 🙁


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    Jack wrote:

    My wife just got home from her evening shift & I put in overtime. The reason I put in ot was so a life saving medical test could be approved for a 2 year old child.
    I’m tired and normally pastor shenanigans give me a chuckle, but reading about these clowns just irks me tonight.
    The amount of cash these guys make for their seminaries & their megachurches…
    The church has completely lost its relevance.

    Yes, if nothing else I wonder how much of a burden these self-acclaimed superman leaders put on the rest of us who cannot seem to do as much as they do. For me lately, my daughter and I have been extremely humbled by our circumstances. No longer do we judge anyone who looks as haggled as we do, thinking they are just too lazy to even get properly dressed. Every inch of my kitchen counter is covered with stuff. And on top of that, we do not get paid for taking care of my mother with dementia and her other health problems, my grandbaby with special and high time consuming needs, or trying to battle against the baby’s father who pretended to be a Christian and now has threatened to kill my daughter and take the baby to Fiji where his family lives and his father is a pastor of a church there. The other day on a Facebook page that I like, the post was a political one. I asked if anyone had any word on new and promising upcoming middle of the road candidates for the next election because I did not have time right now to research them myself. One of the commenters proceeded to lecture me on how everyone has the same 24 hours in a day and that I was just being lazy on getting my own information. And the person made the lecture about as long to read as David Platt like talking head sermon. I tried real hard to laugh about it. ‘Only managed a crazy sounding chuckle . . .


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    @ Todd Wilhelm:
    The “salary” thing is often a deflection. Being paid an honorarium for each sermon is not a “salary” so one wonders if this is all spin. In kind renumeration is not a “salary” as you mention. Expenses run high in that stratosphere. He won’t sacrifice financially. That s not how it works.

    I just listened to a YRR “pup” give a 45 minute tearful “sermon” on the huge sacrifice he is making to leave the church he ruined after 5 years to be a “teaching pastor” in a mega. I happen to know his income will almost double. He even had the nerve to say he was leaving the church in the best shape it had ever been in and it’s history! It has less than half the members and attendance it had when he came. All the Community out reach programs were killed by him. There are now NO laypeople chairing committees. The non Cal-Staff members eventually left and were replaced with SBTS people. He did nothing but travel on so-called mission trips or went to conferences and seem to be on vacation every other month. My friend tells me that people were really starting to grumble about that. It took long enough!

    Anyway, the “sermon” was completely delusional.


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    In an ironic twist, the exact same thing happened at an SBC church my daughter and I attended (some time after my 2nd McLean Bible Church experience) in a different city… the pastor became ill and one day announced from the pulpit who his replacement would be… not even the elders appeared involved in this situation. No vote, no discussion, just “here’s who it is, like it or not”. One of many reasons I am not a fan of “institutionalied/bureaucracy-ized Churchianity”.@ Deb:


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    @ Gram3:
    If a merger is in the works (someone at SBC Today suggested that might be the case and was chided by a writer at SBCVoices for writing it which made me think it’s true) Ezell seems like the likely candidate.

    My guess is they are already intertwined in more ways than folks might understand. As I think it’s all going NGO working with the UN and Feds for some of the billions out there.


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    @ Bill:
    No say in the process but you had best pony up to pay his salary! The entitlement mentally is astonishing.


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    @ Thersites:
    I learned recently that these titles are very important in that world. The man boy who took over my former church immediately had his title changed to “lead pastor”. But there were no other pastors. There was a youth minister a children’s minister and an education Minister. As all were replaced their titles changed with the word pastor not minister. I mean it’s not that big of a deal until you look at a pattern in the entire movement. Evidently the title ‘lead pastor” gives them street cred for moving up in the movement.

    Thanks to Ed Setzer, former church planting expert for LifeWay, all came to realize that the title “teaching pastor” means they do not have to interact with the peasant pew sitters. It’s like a code for the party apparatus, comrade. Just don’t ask questions and pay your dues.


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    @ Bill:

    Yes, my experience and sentiments exactly. MBC used to meet at Langley High School before building a huge church building. Then they purchased the Wildlife Federation building and mega-sized the already mega church. McLean has gradually lost the credibility it once had back in the 80s and 90s. The teaching became ever more shallow, the focus shifted from sound teaching to pop-culture issues and my husband and I believe that’s what set it up to bring Platt in. These Neo-Cal guys act like they have answers for everything; they are the new wave, the latest and greatest.


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    @ Julie Anne:

    “LOL at Dee telling Deb to check her text messages. I literally LOLed.”

    More insider stuff? 🙂


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    Lydia wrote:

    @ Gram3:
    If a merger is in the works (someone at SBC Today suggested that might be the case and was chided by a writer at SBCVoices for writing it which made me think it’s true) Ezell seems like the likely candidate.

    My guess is they are already intertwined in more ways than folks might understand. As I think it’s all going NGO working with the UN and Feds for some of the billions out there.

    Oh wow Lydia, now you are getting into the territory that my daughter was “discovering” when she was at school in Baltimore and dating an SGM man. The things she happened upon sent her down rabbit trails while she was researching Du Bai (sp?) for a paper. She would send me links and all kinds of stuff and say she swears it is all linked together somehow with these guys. Pardon me while go rip off another sheet of tin foil!


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    Lydia wrote:

    the title “teaching pastor” means they do not have to interact with the peasant pew sitters. It’s like a code for the party apparatus

    It is also a biological code. The “Youth and Family Pastor” becomes “Youth and Family Director” when held by a female.


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    Lydia wrote:

    And it did help him escape that “radical” existence he taught.

    I was listening to Platt’s final sermon at “The Church at Brook Hills” today and he stated he still has the dream of going on mission to Nepal. Cue the choking voice and near tears as he passionately tells his church of all the Nepalese dying without hearing the Gospel.

    True enough I thought, but if he really believed the “Radical” stuff he writes about what’s keeping him from pulling up stakes and moving there? Perhaps he isn’t really so committed to being radical? That’s better left to the students he and Piper appeal to at their annual Cross Conference.

    IMO Platt is an unethical showman, plain and simple. I have written about when he took his “Secret Church” show on the road to an “undisclosed location in the Middle East where a person could lose his life for being a Christian.” The event was supposedly being simulcast live to the USA – it wasn’t. It was taped and shown later. My daughter attended the event, held at a lovely hotel in Dubai. (The Marriott or Hilton, I can’t recall which) Dave Furman, pastor at Redeemer Church of Dubai (the sponsor of the event) went along with the charade and was one of several who were filmed with their faces blackened to hide their identity as they were interviewed. This event basically served as a promotion for one of Platt’s books and undoubtedly it boosted sales back in the USA.

    To my knowledge neither Platt nor Furman have apologized for the scam they took part in. Birds of a feather stick together, I guess that is why Platt has no problem appearing on the conference circuit with C.J. Mahaney.


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    “Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.” – Acts 2:41, NKJV

    Was Peter a pastor to these souls or just a talking head? He clearly could not know everyone by name as our capacity as humans–sociologically speaking–taps out at around 150 (if you look at the literature).

    Just something to consider.

    I think there is a place for leadership at these larger churches. That does not excuse poor leadership or unwise over-commitments as Platt seems to be doing here.

    It is true that to have a pastoral relationship, the congregation or ratio needs to be 150:1. However, I can tell you as a senior pastor type that it’s hard to find the funding to hire enough pastors to make that a reality. This is a problem that cuts both ways.


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    @ Todd Wilhelm:

    Frauds, mountebanks, and carnival barkers, that’s all they are…


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    Arnold Smartarse wrote:

    Well, I think it’s clear what the problem is. It seems to me that you’re all just looking for the perfect church.
    What I would say is, if you ever find the perfect church, don’t join – you’ll spoil it.

    No worries, Arnold. Churches have nothing to fear from me! I embrace imperfection.


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    Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    IMO Platt is an unethical showman, plain and simple. I have written about when he took his “Secret Church” show on the road to an “undisclosed location in the Middle East where a person could lose his life for being a Christian.” The event was supposedly being simulcast live to the USA – it wasn’t. It was taped and shown later. My daughter attended the event, held at a lovely hotel in Dubai. (The Marriott or Hilton, I can’t recall which) Dave Furman, pastor at Redeemer Church of Dubai (the sponsor of the event) went along with the charade and was one of several who were filmed with their faces blackened to hide their identity as they were interviewed. This event basically served as a promotion for one of Platt’s books and undoubtedly it boosted sales back in the USA.

    When he was three my son once told a woman in the checkout line that I once threw him like a football. I said " E, that's not a true story!"

    My son replied "No, Daddy, but it's a good story!"


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    I agree with pretty much all the critique here…. With one exception: If I was a pastor, I can understand taking 20-25 hours for study and sermon preparation. I would also spend the other 20-25 hours getting to know the people and doing visitation-type activities.

    I think we see a lot of cases where pastors shy away from becoming “friends” with the people in their church. It is like they think they are crossing some sort of line if they drop their guard and form genuine relationships. There is no excuse for the lack of shepherding, love, and caring that we are seeing in the modern church. I believe they will be held accountable.


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    Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    No disrespect to the multitude of honest, hard working “real” pastors who labor faithfully, week in and week out in normal churches with an average of 100-200 in attendance each week.

    This is and has always been the model of Lutheran (LCMS and ELCA synods) pastoral care. Sure, they’ll get a real piece of work for a pastor now and again, but he’s usually removed before the damage can escalate.


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    Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    … final sermon at “The Church at Brook Hills” today and he stated he still has the dream of going on mission to Nepal.

    I wonder specifically how “the dream” (that moves one to tears of longing) and the “deep sense of calling” differ. Couldn’t one set up some form of webcast in order to preach_the_gospel in Nepal or anywhere else?

    It so happens we know a couple hereabouts who spent several years living in Nepal – indeed, but for a specific unforeseen family commitment (I’m deliberately being vague as I’ve not asked their permission to share their story) they might still be there. I’m sure they could help. Incidentally, they didn’t go there to preach the gospel as such. They went to provide medical expertise and other practical support to Nepalese men and women while they preached the gospel. The Nepalese believers don’t seek expenses-paid work jollies or international trips, or book deals. The church there is made of people like us; it’s not free of difficulties or personalities. But they serve others, and visit the sick. And, while they’re about it, lay hands on and pray for them.

    Our friends are grounded, thoughtful and medically qualified; and not remotely given to sensationalism or exaggeration. They are also quite able to live in the tension where not everyone is miraculously healed. But they brought back many well-researched case studies of people who were. I’m sure they could help Mr Platt find a fulfilment of his dream.


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    If Jesus took the same approach

    Sermon on the Mount – definitely
    Washing disciples feet – delegate


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    They went to provide medical expertise and other practical support to Nepalese men and women while they preached the gospel.

    …well, and they themselves explained the gospel when the occasion demanded. But you know what I mean: they didn’t go there predominantly to be public speakers.


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    Frauds, mountebanks, and carnival barkers, that’s all they are…

    You left out ‘charlatans and congenital liars’. 🙂


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    …well, and they themselves explained the gospel when the occasion demanded. But you know what I mean: they didn’t go there predominantly to be public speakers.

    To be fair to Platt, in his final sermon I referenced he actually made a strong plea for Christians to go to different countries not as professional missionaries, but as workers with regular jobs who can spread the Gospel through normal contacts and also assist to strengthen local churches. I believe this is the way missions should be viewed and accomplished. I have long been an advocate of this. The ironic thing is that the 9Marx pastor in the town of Fujairah (a smaller town on the east coast of the UAE) wrote an article that was published on the 9Marx website that was bemoaning the fact that there are too many missionaries. His view was that too many immature Christians are going overseas and they cause lots of problems. He basically made it sound like unless you were “Elder” material you shouldn’t be a missionary. I disagree.

    These pastors do a lot of fund raising in the USA, selling themselves as making a huge impact on the muslim world for the cause of Christ. They actually have a very limited impact. What their job is, without exception, is pastoring a church for expats. The impact on the muslim world is accomplished very slowly through sincere friendships made through contacts by normal working people. These friendships take years to cultivate. The local church has an indirect impact in that it can serve as a place of training, fellowship, etc. for those working normal jobs in the community.


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    @ Nick Bulbeck:
    Yeah, I know several families that were in Nepal in a similar sense, one family for 20 yrs or so, 6 days walk away from the nearest road, while the others did veterinary work in an area almost as rural. There are plenty of people in Nepal, grafting away for little personal glory.


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    Divorce Minister wrote:

    “Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.” – Acts 2:41, NKJV
    Was Peter a pastor to these souls or just a talking head? He clearly could not know everyone by name as our capacity as humans–sociologically speaking–taps out at around 150 (if you look at the literature).

    I get your point but you will also notice in Acts 2 that believers had all things in common, met daily in the temple and broke bread together in homes. We don’t know how intimately accquainted Peter and the other Apostles were with all the Jerusalem believers, but it sounds like their lifestyle would lend itself to knowing each other much better than today’s mega church pastor. When I attended a Sovereign Grace Church the pastors had their own small group! For whatever reason they didn’t feel comfortable mixing with the common folk. That probably should have clued me in to the fact that things were unhealthy there.

    Also, someone up the comment ladder was mentioning campus churches where the pastor is only on the big screen. I totally disagree with that concept. There is an interesting discussion on this subject between Mark Driscoll, James McDonald and Mark Dever here:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ukvHuwFzBA

    As much as it pains me to say it, I agree with Dever’s viewpoint on this subject.


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    Lydia wrote:

    My guess is there’s some bigger strategy going on. The trustee statement is rather curious, too.

    “The Takeover Part II-Mohler’s Revenge”

    They’ve got control of enough income streams, they can make what seems like a selfless move and still get paid while taking strategic control. You really néed to check out Twitter to get a better idea of what these guys are doing and see some of the connections.


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    Again, I have no earthly clue why anyone would think it’s a good idea to take a word, “pastor” which appears only once in the singular in the entire New Testament, and then only fourth in a list of five giftings useful for the church, a word that is not explicitly defined in the Bible in terms of role, and make up a meaning for it out of whole cloth, defined as he one head person to be the primary teacher and CEO of a fellowship, big or small, to whom all, if push comes to shove, must ultimately submit. That is simply not a position that exists in the New Testament. Does not. So why do we continue supporting this made up role? Why do we continue attending fellowships that such a person presides over and wonder why things go wrong? Why do we all invariably say “Ah, but you don’t know my pastor, I love my pastor, he’s different.” Even assuming the best of him (or her), you’re just flat asking for it when you set up any sort of king position that does not exist in the New Testament. Why do we persist, neurotically supporting this model? Why are we so downright stupid?

    The last time such a position existed was over 3,000 years ago, it was a special circumstance, it was explicitly ordained by the Lord Himself, and it was filled by one who was stated by God to be the most humble man in the history of the world. And yet, in spite of all that, that man led them in circles for forty years until everyone who’d started on the journey was dead and desiccating in the desert—and even that humble man himself blew it and died without entering the Promised Land. Again, I ask, what exactly makes anyone think their fellowship is somehow going to do it better that the most humble man in the history of the world? And to boot in the New Testament era when such single leader roles are absolutely no part of the New Testament? Why are we so stupid?


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    Law Prof wrote:

    So why do we continue supporting this made up role?

    Who’s “We”?

    Best regards,

    God


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    Is it common for Calvinist pastors to preach almost word for word Piper / MacArthurs sermons on the same exact texts? Bringing out the same exact thoughts / ideas?

    The pastor has stated he spends 15 – 20 hours a week preparing his sermon…but in reading the comments above about how pastors will say that but just copy & paste other people I just found a sermon by MacArthur on Psalm 19 and it sounded exactly like the sermon my pastor preached a few weeks ago on Psalm 19.

    The people in this church are very nice & supportive…but I’m starting to think it’s time to move on.


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    “You may think some of my nine jobs are questionable and others of them are controversial. But brother or sister, these nine jobs are biblical, and that is why they are so valuable.”


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    @ Todd Wilhelm:

    Interesting, I always thought Platt was the dullard they sent on errands when they talked about the secret stuff.


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    Thersites wrote:

    “Call him a speaker, not a pastor.”
    I think the title of “pastor” has lost its meaning. It has been assigned to any imaginable paid position in an institutional church.
    Head pastor, lead pastor, teaching pastor, senior pastor, preaching pastor, associate pastor, assistant pastor, worship pastor, music pastor, youth pastor, college pastor, building services pastor, executive pastor …
    While many take much pride in their pastor title I would be embarrassed at the current level of absurdity. I’ve even seen “multi-media pastor”.

    In the United States, there’s a reason for that, and it has to do with income taxes. If you’re a religious figure, you can designate some portion of your income (up to a certain point, please consult with your tax advisor) as compensation for housing. This money comes to you tax free, as you (unlike the rest of us Americans who don’t have “pastor” or “Reverend” in front of our names) do not have to pay federal income tax on that portion. So when I see that Platt is not being paid a salary, I question that, unless he’s already covered in this area by his IMB salary and perks.


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    Hmm-methinks my upbringing has given me an entirely different take on what the preacher should be. See, I grew up in the remoter parts of the domestic oilfields. Church was run, shepherded, pastored, whatever you want to call leading the flock by all of us. We called a man (we were SBC)to preach. Usually didn’t pay or didn’t pay much. We were an all volunteer army. But we didn’t expect him to know us all by name, succor us through the tough times of life, or somehow “be there” for us 24/7. He had his family and his oilfield job, and we were either adults or in families with adults.

    So while I dislike Platt’s platitudes in general, I’ve no problem with him supply preaching for the church. (But seriously, 20-25 hrs a week on prep? Must be a slow reading inefficient thinker.)


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    @ Law Prof:
    Tradition, and anyone that questions tradition is a “liberal”, and we all know where that leads…


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    Jeffrey J Chalmers wrote:

    @ Law Prof:
    Tradition, and anyone that questions tradition is a “liberal”, and we all know where that leads…

    Yep, I am one of the “liberals” and it has created much exiling in my SBC life.


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    @ Law Prof:

    I think you’ve summed it up pretty well. I can remember on pastor in my lifetime that handled the role fairly well, but I’ve known others who truly were pastors. Unfortunately, churches have become so institutionalized it is almost impossible for that person to do what God meant for them to do. The leadership is far to often unaware of, or opposed to, the real church that sometimes begins to form.


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    @ Jeffrey J Chalmers:
    Plus, it has been my experience, that while this is way overly simplistic, there seems to two kinds of people: 1. Tell me want to do/believe, and I will do it, … I do not want to figure it my self… to much work… and, 2. Don’t you dare tell me what to do unless you have a reason that “I” approve. Of course there are many in between, but I continue to be amazed how many people do not put much thought into what they do and say….. our “immediate culture” is makin this worse…. so, having a “pastor” think for “me” is very easy..


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    Re: the 20-25 hour person thing.

    For what it’s worth, I preach somewhere around 10 Sundays a year doing pulpit supply around my area. I’d say it takes me anywhere from 8-15 hours to put together a new sermon depending on my familiarity with the passage. 20-25 hours might involve something like translating the passage out of the original language, maybe?

    Also, most pastors who are doing pastoral care/visitation/counselling…i.e., actually working with their congregations are not going to have 20-25 hours of sermon prep time. It’s very much a privilege of churches that can insulate the preacher from the congregation.


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    Divorce Minister wrote:

    “Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.” – Acts 2:41, NKJV
    Was Peter a pastor to these souls or just a talking head?

    IMHO – Peter was doing evangelism, like Billy Graham, for example, and not pastoring.

    Paul, on the other hand, addresses pastoring in practicing detail, in some of the epistles.


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    @ Todd Wilhelm:
    Thanks, very insightful from your experience with boots on the ground.


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    If a “pastor” is not willing to serve the congregation through hospital visits and preaching funerals, then they are not tending to their flocks. If a “pastor” cannot take the time to officiate at a member’s wedding or to provide pre-marriage or marriage counseling, then that “pastor” has no business getting up and preaching a sermon on Sunday morning about the sanctity of marriage. Remember that the word Pastor derives from the Latin for Shepherd, if these “pastors” were employed as actual shepherds they would be lucky to have any sheep left after a week, they would either wonder away, be eaten by wolves, would starve to death or dehydrate, since they seem to believe that they are only supposed to do one job and not deal with the other responsibilities.

    I have said for years, that the problem with many of these “pastors” is that they want to be Evangelists like Billy Graham, but they want the security of a permanent church. One reason that have always respected Billy Graham is because he knew that he was called to be an Evangelist not a Pastor. While he did pastor churches in his twenties, once he launched his Evangelism ministry he never again pastored a church, even though almost any church would have offered him any deal he wanted, because he knew he could not be an Evangelist and a Pastor without shortchanging the church he was supposed to be pastoring.


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    Jarrett Edwards wrote:

    called to be an Evangelist not a Pastor.

    Yes, there is a great distinction here. It seems Billy Graham has the gift of evangelism (gifts of the Spirit to the church, Rom. 12, 1 Cor. 12, Eph. 4). He recognized this and lived his life and ministry appropriately.

    One would hope that those who have been given the gift of pastoring by the Holy Spirit, would likewise live their lives and ministries appropriately.

    Ezekiel 34 describes, unfortunately, false shepherds.


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    Lydia wrote:

    If a merger is in the works (someone at SBC Today suggested that might be the case and was chided by a writer at SBCVoices for writing it which made me think it’s true) Ezell seems like the likely candidate.

    Could be. Putting some pieces of the puzzle together, ISTM that Platt is being transitioning into Senior Pastor at McLean Bible, though obviously that announcement cannot be made just yet because Appearances and Propriety and Timing. The Teaching Pastor Part-time Unpaid 65% gig serves as a bridge to that and also keeps the McLean pewpeons sticky during the transition period between Senior Pastors which is always tricky. It’s also tricky if there is something messy with IMB and NAMB that is as yet undisclosed.


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    What Happened wrote:

    You really néed to check out Twitter to get a better idea of what these guys are doing and see some of the connections.

    I need a clue. Whose Twitter?


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    What Happened wrote:

    what these guys are doing and see some of the connections.

    The main trend I’ve seen over the past 20 years or so is that the Calvinist/Non-Calvinist divide at the top of the SBC does not seem to be an issue. In other words, ISTM that the Mohler faction has won that war. They seem to have united around pragmatic Authoritarianism and Complementarianism. Mohler does as he pleases, as far as I can tell.

    We talk about the Pope and Pravda, but I think that’s because some of us have seen scary stuff.


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    Good chance David Platt will not write much of those sermons. The big boys all use “research services” to do the heavy lifting. He is just a big idea guy.


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    @ Gram3:

    Mohler and Company: The tweets from these guys add an extra dimension to the posts at TWW. You get character development, plot development and backstory.

    Recently, a few of these guys were in Germany for a few days doing the Martin Luther tour. I don’t remember exactly who was there, but I remembered wondering how they could fill their other responsibilities and who was footing the bill. Their disregard for anything outside their circle was heartbreaking. There were more interesting and relevant things that I can’t remember from that story.

    With Mac Brunson you see tweets about Lambert and Mohler and trivializing the impact of Irma on the community while whining about the minor ways it inconvenienced him personally. Just today he seems to throw a jab at Paige Patterson.

    And, sometimes, you get the pleasure of seeing their petty responses to someone that they have no other way of harming. My post probably doesn’t do justice to the actual experience of reading them for yourself.


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    Jarrett Edwards wrote:

    I have said for years, that the problem with many of these “pastors” is that they want to be Evangelists like Billy Graham, but they want the security of a permanent church.

    You have a good point. As a variation on the theme, ISTM that they want to be honoured as gurus without growing into functioning role-models. I think this explains the dislike many of them have for “bloggers”. It’s because, not so deep down, they know that they themselves are no more than bloggers; the only difference being that they read some of their blog posts out to an audience on a Sunday morning. Naturally, then, they must compete against other bloggers for market-share.

    I remember reading a novel years ago in which one character was into transcendental meditation; and another character (probably speaking for the author) described him thus: You get the comforts of religion without the responsibility. In the circles described here, the same can be said of job-titles ending in “pastor”; you get the honour and privileges of ministry, without the price and responsibility.


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    Incidentally, in the spirit of holding fast to that which is good, I’ll choose to remember David Platt for his superb goal for England against Belgium in the 1990 World Cup finals in Italy:

    FaceTube clip of David Platt’s goal

    #ThereMayBeMoreThanOneDavidPlatt


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    @ Law Prof:

    Amen Law Prof! You nailed it, the TRUTH!

    And why didn’t Jesus, His Disciples, and His Apostles, make the big bucks and the lives of the “rich and famous” as we see witnessed today with the great “evangelists, preachers and teachers” of our day? After all, they could have easily marketed themselves, promoted themselves, and charged money at the gate to hear their Holy Spirit inspired messages……why didn’t they take advantage of people?

    A Christian (?) comedian gave a performance recently in which he banked nearly fifteen grand for his one night performance, using the name of jesus near the end to share a gospel-like message. That’s a pretty sweet return for using the name of Jesus in vain for two to three hours, and the people bought his junk by the droves on that proverbial “table” at the back of the room by the door. He left a very happy, happy man……no persecution there!

    As far as the east is from the west, false Christianity makes the big bucks these days in the land of the affluent for many have bought into the belief that Jesus came to make us healthy, wealthy, and prosperous.


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    @ Nick Bulbeck:

    Incidentally, Platt captained England on numerous occasions and his Wiki bio says the following:

    The official England history regarded him as a tireless runner and tidy passer, leading by quiet example providing inspiration at a time when it was a rare commodity.

    He was certainly a captain whom you could rely on to turn up and put in a shift when the team was under pressure.


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    @ Nick Bulbeck:

    Incidentally, that’s three comments in a row beginning with the word “incidentally”.

    I sometimes despair at being such a talentless, beached whale of an apology for a wordsmith. Though I am partway through a lunchtime bottle of ale.


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    Loren Haas wrote:

    The big boys all use “research services” to do the heavy lifting.

    This year I’ve been watching 5 churches that broadcast their worship live on Sundays. Often, they are on the same track, preaching the same series, with a slightly different title for each series. The messages were pretty much the same.


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    What do you reckon the remuneration will be for this part-time pastoring? Did I miss that anywhere in this thread?


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    Tree wrote:

    “The model in the New Testament was shared leadership.” You’re modeling New Testament now? In what respects? The “shared leadership” not taking full-time pay checks from their fellow believers, perhaps? Meeting in homes instead of large “church buildings”? Day-to-day leaders of the church living and working shoulder-to-shoulder with all the “one anothers”? Local believers who had plenty sharing personally with other local believers who had need? Personally collecting and sending funds from one local body of believers to a non-local body of believers who were in need? What about the way New Testament leaders and teachers apparently worked to provide their own physical sustenance, so they would not be burdensome on the believers, oh, say, tent-making, for example? That kind of New Testament model?
    Or do you mean the Mega New Testament Church model, in which the large full-time staff are comfortably paid wages from the offering baskets of the local believers (believers that they must manage) especially the ones who are “sharing” leadership with them on a non-paid basis, fitting it around the hours they work to earn money to live. Could you quote me some specific passages on that? My concordance doesn’t include an entry for “paid pastor”.
    I’m fine with paying staff, pastors, etc, but don’t insist there’s a New Testament mandate for the paid career program we see. Unless you show me some passages that demonstrate it was the norm. Please preface it with, “As the New Testament CLEARLY shows in XYZ…”

    Dang, that was well said.


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    God wrote:

    Law Prof wrote:
    So why do we continue supporting this made up role?
    Who’s “We”?
    Best regards,
    God

    True, sir (if it be proper to call God “sir”).


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    And when we take the word “pastor” and make of it a title and paid formal position rather than a gifting useful for service to others (which is all it appears to be in Eph 4), and when that position is essentially that of congregational CEO who is the head motivational speaker and (hopefully benevolent) king to whom all submit (rather than submitting one to another, and ultimately, of course, to Jesus), why are we surprised when we attract to that position those who are nothing more than entrepreneurial CEOs, vapid, idiotic motivational speakers, and little kings and God-haters who demand submission?

    Why are we surprised at those results when we’re flat begging for them?


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    Tree wrote:

    Or do you mean the Mega New Testament Church model, in which the large full-time staff are comfortably paid wages from the offering baskets of the local believers (believers that they must manage).

    Exactly. And it’s the craziest thing ever. We’re paying, sometimes til it drives us into financial ruin, to be abused.


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    I don’t have a problem with the word “pastor” being used for clergy. Jesus refereed to shepherds and called Himself a shepherd a number of times.

    However, I do think it represents something about care and compassion of the sheep and knowing them by name. Just being a preacher doesn’t make you a pastor. I also think it’s something all Christians should aspire toward, though I do believe all Christians are equal priests in a priesthood lead by Jesus. Anyone who claims the title of “lead pastor” or “head pastor” is usurping Jesus’ authority in the lives of believers.


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    Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:

    In the United States, there’s a reason for that, and it has to do with income taxes. If you’re a religious figure, you can designate some portion of your income (up to a certain point, please consult with your tax advisor) as compensation for housing.

    I’m familiar with the loophole, it is another one of those things that violates my classical liberal sensibilities as does the property tax exclusion that no other non-profit enjoys. That said it may be only a contributing reason for the over-use of the “pastor” title. I don’t know if they have similar laws in Australia, the churches there appear to have the same penchant for the title.


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    Law Prof wrote:

    why are we surprised when we attract to that position those who are nothing more than entrepreneurial CEOs, vapid, idiotic motivational speakers, and little kings and God-haters who demand submission?

    I see you met the “pastor” at my former church.


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    ishy wrote:

    However, I do think it represents something about care and compassion of the sheep and knowing them by name. Just being a preacher doesn’t make you a pastor. I

    My point exactly!


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    Beakerj wrote:

    What do you reckon the remuneration will be for this part-time pastoring? Did I miss that anywhere in this thread?

    He is not taking a salary. I am sure expenses will be reimbursed.


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    Law Prof wrote:

    … (if it be proper to call God “sir”)…

    I look on the heart.

    Best regards,

    God


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    What Happened wrote:

    With Mac Brunson you see tweets about Lambert and Mohler and trivializing the impact of Irma on the community while whining about the minor ways it inconvenienced him personally. Just today he seems to throw a jab at Paige Patterson.

    This is interesting. I bet Mac Brunson is now going to become on of the Calvinistas. I heard that allegedly most of the folks in his mega prefer Heath Lambert to preach. He allegedly just got another huge land gift and may be getting ready to build a mansion on the river.

    Mac Brunson has a history for spending large. Check it out on our blog as well as http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Sorry for the duplicate!

    That’s OK; we still love you.


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    Law Prof–I hear ya!

    For the life of me I’ve never understood, either, why we think we need someone to hold our hands when someone dies besides the Body of Christ. Why we think the head guru can marriage counsel better than those in the Body who have successfully been married 40 plus years. Why if Aunt Tilly is sick we think the head shaman’s prayers are needed more than our next door neighbor sister or brother in Christ’s prayers?

    Why we continue to metaphorically want a “father” clergyperson when Jesus Himself said a resounding no to that model?

    Why we think we can somehow be in authority over anyone else spiritually?

    I cannot see the “pastor” as all that in Bible. I do see the Body of Christ doing all those things, and more, but not paid clergy. I do believe the quickest way to clean up the Body is STOP the clergy/laity divide and go to the all volunteer movement. Learn from the Primitive Baptists and early Holiness folks (not today’s clergy model) and early Quakers (not today’s nonChristian version.)

    We believers are all priests, Jesus is our high priest, and we were not supposed to embrace this pagan shamanism nonsense to begin with.

    And when it goes badly we want to blame the clergy for not being Jesus to us. They are not supposed to be, as they are not supposed to exist.

    But it is so much easier than getting off our collective duffs and doing our own jobs, huh?


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Sorry for the duplicate!

    That’s OK; we still love you.


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    Tree wrote:

    Or do you mean the Mega New Testament Church model, in which the large full-time staff are comfortably paid wages from the offering baskets of the local believers…

    Just like the Priests of the old Egyptian gods…


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    Law Prof wrote:

    Exactly. And it’s the craziest thing ever. We’re paying, sometimes til it drives us into financial ruin, to be abused.

    Good little Suckers in the Mooch-and-Sucker Show.

    As thoroughly-Domesticated as North Korean Population Units.


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    Alucius wrote:

    Re: the 20-25 hour person thing.

    For what it’s worth, I preach somewhere around 10 Sundays a year doing pulpit supply around my area. I’d say it takes me anywhere from 8-15 hours to put together a new sermon depending on my familiarity with the passage. 20-25 hours might involve something like translating the passage out of the original language, maybe?

    Or to paraphrase Dilbert:
    “One hour to download it from a ‘Research Service’ and trim off the labels, 19-24 hours to play ‘Doom’…”


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    Dale Rudiger wrote:

    “You may think some of my nine jobs are questionable and others of them are controversial. But brother or sister, these nine jobs are biblical, and that is why they are so valuable.”

    Sounds like Comrade Napoleon on how the Pigs of the Inner Party have such a hard and lonely task…


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    What Happened wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    My guess is there’s some bigger strategy going on. The trustee statement is rather curious, too.

    “The Takeover Part II-Mohler’s Revenge”

    After the Coup comes the Cleansing.


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    Thersites wrote:

    I’m familiar with the loophole, it is another one of those things that violates my classical liberal sensibilities as does the property tax exclusion that no other non-profit enjoys.

    I’m a liberal lefty too, and I think it’s high time to revamp the tax codes so that the loopholes are closed and that all non-profits (religious or no) must abide by the same rules…


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    Lydia wrote:

    @ Thersites:
    I learned recently that these titles are very important in that world. The man boy who took over my former church immediately had his title changed to “lead pastor”. But there were no other pastors. There was a youth minister a children’s minister and an education Minister. As all were replaced their titles changed with the word pastor not minister. I mean it’s not that big of a deal until you look at a pattern in the entire movement. Evidently the title ‘lead pastor” gives them street cred for moving up in the movement.

    Is there a bonus for adding “Lead Prophet” and/or “Head Apostle” to the title?


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    Thersites wrote:
    I’m familiar with the loophole, it is another one of those things that violates my classical liberal sensibilities as does the property tax exclusion that no other non-profit enjoys.
    I’m a liberal lefty too, and I think it’s high time to revamp the tax codes so that the loopholes are closed and that all non-profits (religious or no) must abide by the same rules…

    No liberal lefty here, in fact, not really political at all, but as someone who is a full bore Christian, has published in the field of taxation and done research into nonprofit organizations, I think it’s high time we close the loophole as well for any 501(c)(3) that does not truly function as a charitable nonprofit organization.God wrote:

    I look on the heart.
    Best regards,
    God

    Given my personal state, that’s not exactly comforting!


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    Last post was meant to be two separate, one responding to Muff, the other to Nick/Bombast/”God”


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    What Happened wrote:

    Mohler and Company

    Thank you. As I wrote last night, the trend over the last 20 years (and especially the last 10 years) has been consolidation of power around Mohler and Mohler loyalists with the only doctrinal essentials being Authoritarianism (meaning loyalty to whatever they say) and Complementarianism. If push comes to shove, I think they would ditch Complementariansm in order to save Authoritarianism, which is what they really value. That idol of Authoritarianism is the reason, IMO, that the competing factions of Calvinists and Traditionalists have been willing to make at least the appearance of peace in the SBC.


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    Law Prof wrote:

    No liberal lefty here, in fact, not really political at all,

    Actually, ‘liberal lefty’ functions only as temporary place holder for me. I’m all over the continuum insofar as views go. Here’s one that’s guaranteed to make my progressive brothers and sisters recoil in horror and get their boxers and panties in a dither every time:
    I’m a firm believer in Capital Punishment.


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    @ Nick Bulbeck:
    What a relief. The thing about touchpads is they are so…touchy.


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    Law Prof wrote:

    Given my personal state, that’s not exactly comforting!

    You might be surprised.

    😉

    Best regards,

    God


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    Bah. Evilchester United won 4-0.

    The whole world is rubbish.

    Up Yours,

    Roger Bombast


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    @ Mandavilla:
    I hear you. I’d love a sabbatical too.


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    Law Prof wrote:

    one head person to be the primary teacher and CEO of a fellowship, big or small, to whom all, if push comes to shove, must ultimately submit. That is simply not a position that exists in the New Testament. Does not. So why do we continue supporting this made up role?

    It evolved; a culture developed around it; rules and regulations; holidays and celebrations; the yearly church calendar; working people could show up, pay up, and leave; eventually the CEO posted a job roster for the volunteers; duties and titles; gender roles; power and access became linked to donated money; book$ and conference$ and web$ite$ and broadcast$; celebrity and status; trips and missions and safaris; etc. What does any of this have to do with God? Not a clue.


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    I am surprised the IMB would go for this.

    Also surprised MBC would go for this. MBC deserves a full time pastor.

    IMB deserves a full time, fully engaged chief executive.


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    Anonymous Oracle at Delphi wrote:

    I am surprised the IMB would go for this.

    Yes, but Platt played the “deep sense of calling (from God)” card which translated into plain English means “I have a better job offer and this is your notice.” They cannot fire him and they cannot say God did not “call” him, either because Unspiritual. That is the reason for the “revisiting” language, I think. Stalling for time to make the transition.

    MBC has a full-time administrative pastor and staff, and it seems that they are happy with Platt bringing the star power. It is a sad fact of mega-church psychology that people like to be associated with stars. Overhead is a thing that happens every single day regardless of how many people show up. Platt is a proven winner — especially among a certain psychographic — and he is a young man who can be in the pulpit for many years at MBC. That is a huge plus for the elders there, I imagine.


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    Law Prof wrote:
    No liberal lefty here, in fact, not really political at all,
    Actually, ‘liberal lefty’ functions only as temporary place holder for me. I’m all over the continuum insofar as views go. Here’s one that’s guaranteed to make my progressive brothers and sisters recoil in horror and get their boxers and panties in a dither every time:
    I’m a firm believer in Capital Punishment.

    I’m big on capitol punishment, as in punishing the politicians who work at the capitol.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Yes, but Platt played the “deep sense of calling (from God)” card…

    I’m sick of that garbage, especially as used by people like Platt, because that great calling they love to reference is code for “My calling is bigger than yours, and if you plebes don’t submit, you’re against the Lord”. Once heard a pastor bluster on the stage: “When ya get called to the ministry, it’s like nothin’ ya ever experienced, why it’s life changin’ event!” Didn’t know any better back then in my youth, but today I’d tell that pomposity everyone who knows the Lord has a calling to the ministry, all of us are high priests, and every calling is of utmost importance, and that fact that he thought it wise to mount a stage and puff about his in particular is a sign that he had no calling at all.


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    JYJames wrote:

    Law Prof wrote:
    one head person to be the primary teacher and CEO of a fellowship, big or small, to whom all, if push comes to shove, must ultimately submit. That is simply not a position that exists in the New Testament. Does not. So why do we continue supporting this made up role?
    It evolved; a culture developed around it; rules and regulations; holidays and celebrations; the yearly church calendar; working people could show up, pay up, and leave; eventually the CEO posted a job roster for the volunteers; duties and titles; gender roles; power and access became linked to donated money; book$ and conference$ and web$ite$ and broadcast$; celebrity and status; trips and missions and safaris; etc. What does any of this have to do with God? Not a clue.

    Yep, that’s it.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    “deep sense of calling (from God)”

    Law Prof wrote:

    And when we take the word “pastor” and make of it a title and paid formal position rather than a gifting useful for service to others (which is all it appears to be in Eph 4), and when that position is essentially that of congregational CEO who is the head motivational speaker and (hopefully benevolent) king to whom all submit (rather than submitting one to another, and ultimately, of course, to Jesus), why are we surprised when we attract to that position those who are nothing more than entrepreneurial CEOs, vapid, idiotic motivational speakers, and little kings and God-haters who demand submission?

    So the “calling from God” to be “your pastor” is really…?


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    ___

    Free Ride: “Please, No Explanations Inside The MBC Church…”

    hmmm…

    Is Lon’s final act – his final ‘rock drop by event'(tm) to take MBC, its 25,000 people and the whole of the Washington D. C. area for a dark closeted stealthy ride into Calvinism’s Dystopian fake gospel?

    huh?

    Silence, as the cancer stealthy grows?
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8xysVNigCsU

    What?

    (…another church bites the dust?)

    SKreeeeeeeeeeeetch!

    Has MBC been corrupted from ‘the simplicity of Christ’ ™?
    (2 Corinthians 11:3)

    Could b.

    Not a sermon, just thought…

    *
    *

    Bet your proverbial @zz, MBC is being played…

    (sadface)

    Sòpy
    ___
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nIBOG8BRcdY

    🙁


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    On the Healing Journey wrote:

    Like your husband, I am deeply touched when a pastor knows my name & uses it in a kind way. Sometimes because of past hurts in churches, when I go to a church service, I just want to be an anonymous person who sits in the back.

    I would’t read too much into that experience. I’m aware that the owner of a local restaurant does something similar. He walks around to the tables, introduces himself and tries to get to know the customers. If he recognizes a familiar face, he has a short chat. It’s all part of the business.


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    linda wrote:

    So while I dislike Platt’s platitudes in general, I’ve no problem with him supply preaching for the church. (But seriously, 20-25 hrs a week on prep? Must be a slow reading inefficient thinker.)

    Even if he does prep his own sermons ……. there’s no way it could really take 20-25 hrs per week!!! With a seminary degree????
    Please, I prepped lesson plans for 6 math classes per day (4 different grade levels) in way, way, way less time than that!


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Anonymous Oracle at Delphi wrote:

    I am surprised the IMB would go for this.

    Yes, but Platt played the “deep sense of calling (from God)” card which translated into plain English means “I have a better job offer and this is your notice.” They cannot fire him and they cannot say God did not “call” him, either because Unspiritual. That is the reason for the “revisiting” language, I think. Stalling for time to make the transition.

    MBC has a full-time administrative pastor and staff, and it seems that they are happy with Platt bringing the star power. It is a sad fact of mega-church psychology that people like to be associated with stars. Overhead is a thing that happens every single day regardless of how many people show up. Platt is a proven winner — especially among a certain psychographic — and he is a young man who can be in the pulpit for many years at MBC. That is a huge plus for the elders there, I imagine.

    Do you think Platt is making a permanent transition here?


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    Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

    Please, I prepped lesson plans for 6 math classes per day (4 different grade levels) in way, way, way less time than that!

    I sincerely doubt that Platt has the mental acuity you have.


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    @ Law Prof:

    God said, “I look on the heart.”

    Law Prof said, “Given my personal state, that’s not exactly comforting!”
    +++++++++++++++++++++++

    feeling tension over what is duplicitous, deceitful, self-promoting under the cover of “God” is a healthy response.

    the placid, smiley response is the wrong one.


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    @ Thersites:

    “I’m familiar with the loophole, it is another one of those things that violates my classical liberal sensibilities as does the property tax exclusion that no other non-profit enjoys.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++

    i would love to see an accounting illustration, showing how much each tax payer in a pastor’s neighborhood has to contribute to cover the shortfall of the public services which the pastor enjoys and expects.

    the same for a church facility.

    pastors should see this and understand it.

    only 1 church in my town would let me hold a musical recital at their facility. i called every single one. one person i talked to went to so far as to say “we can’t allow this, or else our tax-exempt status would be jeopardized”.

    that is the hill to die on — protect their tax exempt status. deny the community access to their facility which they help sponsor with their tax dollars.

    think of how useful the church facility could be to the community — instead of sitting closed up 96% of the week, it could be the locale for after-school tutoring, teaching english, teaching vocational skills, job counseling, a place for performing arts, plays, concerts, meals served to homeless people.

    no — tax exempt status comes first.

    i think most pastors are trained (whether by others or by self) to feel justified in being the recipient of tax breaks. i have a feeling it is an easy process. the realities of who bears the burden of the costs isn’t part of this training. i have a feeling it isn’t wondered about.


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    Actually, ‘liberal lefty’ functions only as temporary place holder for me.

    Sorry for initiating a rabbit trail but to clarify a classical liberal is more like a libertarian but sees the need for just a tad more government. It is a very odd collection of characters.

    My problem with the tax breaks for churches and staff is they don’t want government intrusion but then want to keep special exemptions. You can’t have it both ways and these special privileges may prove to be a future rationalization for government meddling.


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    Law Prof wrote:

    everyone who knows the Lord has a calling to the ministry, all of us are high priests, and every calling is of utmost importance

    Agreed, especially when the pastor who is taking money from the church would claim to be more important than those putting the money in. This is not to argue against paid staff but it should certainly argue for much more humility than what is often demonstrated.


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    Anonymous Oracle at Delphi wrote:

    Do you think Platt is making a permanent transition here?

    It looks like it to me. The interim setup is weird, the IMB Trustee statement is really weird, and the Platts have moved their kids to MBC. I think that last bit is important. Running a huge bureaucracy like the IMB is no fun, and a huge church can be a rush if you go for that kind of thing and have staff to take care of the administrative stuff. Platt fell on the sword by taking the heat during the IMB missionary recall debacle, so this is his parachute. He did not create the mess but he had to be the face of it.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    …only 1 church in my town would let me hold a musical recital at their facility. i called every single one. one person i talked to went to so far as to say “we can’t allow this, or else our tax-exempt status would be jeopardized”.

    They’re either ignorant of the law or lying to you and blowing you off. Nonprofits are one of my fields of research. Of course, were they to turn it into a profit center and start renting it out for profit, that’d be different, but nothing in the tax code stops them from performing a community service like that.


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    @ Law Prof:

    to be more specific, they said that their insurer advised them that if they were to let anyone use their facility other than another non-profit, it could jeopardize their tax-exempt status.

    Could you comment on that? I’d be very interested.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Tree wrote:
    Or do you mean the Mega New Testament Church model, in which the large full-time staff are comfortably paid wages from the offering baskets of the local believers…
    Just like the Priests of the old Egyptian gods…

    Wasn’t there some problem or other with Eli’s sons, taking the best parts of the sacrifices for themselves?

    As I recall, that didn’t come out too well for them, or for their father.


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    dee wrote:

    He is not taking a salary. I am sure expenses will be reimbursed.

    That is better than I expected.


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    Going back to the comments about receiving Communion. While I don’t know the names of even regulars, I probably recognize them, nor are we allowed (if we follow the church guidelines) to say names.) But, I try to see every person who comes to me as a long lost brother or sister. That has even helped me turn this “not quite the usual “parishioner into someone that I am truly glad to see every Sunday.


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    Thersites wrote:

    My problem with the tax breaks for churches and staff is they don’t want government intrusion but then want to keep special exemptions. You can’t have it both ways and these special privileges may prove to be a future rationalization for govern

    And the churches want to remain tax exempt, but they certainly do want to benefit from the taxes others pay in:
    http://www.bpnews.net/49530/harveybattered-churches-sue-for-fema-funds


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    Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

    Even if he does prep his own sermons ……. there’s no way it could really take 20-25 hrs per week!!! With a seminary degree????
    Please, I prepped lesson plans for 6 math classes per day (4 different grade levels) in way, way, way less time than that!

    No pastor that is paid full-time could say that and be hired or kept on in a Baptist church. It’s a lie that endures because the congregations think that should be how much time a pastor spends on the sermon. It’s the most important part of the Baptist church, in the eyes of many. And often a committee wants Adrian Rogers in a church of 300. So many turn to sermon services and hide in their offices reading books or doing anything else but writing their sermon.


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    Nice to hear that I wasn’t the only one to notice this and it wasn’t just my imagination.@ Hope:


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    Call him a speaker, not a pastor.

    Coming late to this but yes. If he’s not getting a salary, why does he need this ‘title’. That’s all it is. He wants that title. Otherwise what is the point?


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    “Pastor X called me by my names tonight when he handed me the bread. He said “Bill, this is Christ’s body, broken for you.” I have NEVER had anyone do that in communion before. He actually knew my name and used it.” My husband had tears in his eyes.

    I love this story! This happens at my church too and it is lovely. (Communion servers switch around, so not every time, but it has definitely happened from the pastor. He makes a concerted effort to know people’s names. And he doesn’t mispronounce! Bless him).


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    elastigirl wrote:

    @ Law Prof:
    to be more specific, they said that their insurer advised them that if they were to let anyone use their facility other than another non-profit, it could jeopardize their tax-exempt status.
    Could you comment on that? I’d be very interested.

    It’s absurd on its face, it’s not true. There might be potential liability issues should someone not a part of the church be injured on the premises, perhaps certain events wouldn’t be covered under their policy, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the tax treatment of a 501(c)(3). It sounds like the sort of cock-and-bull answer one often gets from a churchy type of person who isn’t a Jesus type of person. Bet it was said with a disarming smile. But seeing it in the best light, the person to whom you spoke was just ignorant and ill-informed, not malicious.


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    @ Nick Bulbeck:

    I am sure my staff are wondering why I laughed so loudly a moment ago. Incidentally, that is.


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    Thersites wrote:

    Sorry for initiating a rabbit trail but to clarify a classical liberal is more like a libertarian but sees the need for just a tad more government. It is a very odd collection of characters.

    Which is why (for me anyway) labels behave more like a fluid than a solid.

    Thersites wrote:

    You can’t have it both ways and these special privileges may prove to be a future rationalization for government meddling.

    I couldn’t agree more. They (501-c3 religious entities) want all the benefits (infrastructure, free speech protections) of a progressive democracy under the rule of law, but none of the responsibilities.


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    Law Prof wrote:

    They’re either ignorant of the law or lying to you and blowing you off. Nonprofits are one of my fields of research. Of course, were they to turn it into a profit center and start renting it out for profit, that’d be different, but nothing in the tax code stops them from performing a community service like that.

    Last Thursday night, my church hosted a community hearing about a city street-widening project in the immediate area which affected them among others. Presented by a city councilman and including several city engineers. In the parish hall of my church. Got a bit lively, but no legal or 501c3 problems.


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    Thersites wrote:

    My problem with the tax breaks for churches and staff is they don’t want government intrusion but then want to keep special exemptions.

    Including Dallas Megas who delivered the vote in 2016.
    Now THAT was really pushing it.


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    “olks, find a church in which you have a real pastor, not a talking head who offers nothing different than a podcast Find a pastor who knows your names and will come and sit with you when you are in the hospital. Find a pastor who will do your funeral and not punt it to the third tier pastoral staff. Find a church in which the pastor knows you name and truly cares about you-not an abstract you who is just a part of a mass of faces. In oterh words, find a real church.”

    Says it all.


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    Thersites wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    the title “teaching pastor” means they do not have to interact with the peasant pew sitters. It’s like a code for the party apparatus

    It is also a biological code. The “Youth and Family Pastor” becomes “Youth and Family Director” when held by a female.

    This is one of the reasons I ended up ditching the SBC for good. It was all titles and nonsense.


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    I find it curious that those that are not Roman Catholic expect the preacher to function as the parish priest. He isn’t married in order to allow him to be the uberparent to the parish. The father. The one who dries your tears and holds your hand in the hospital and does your funeral and your weddings.

    Many in the radical reformation rejected that idea as unbiblical. We all dry each other’s tears. We all hold each other’s hands in the hospital. We made funerals and weddings church events when they never were in Bible times. Many of us take seriously Jesus telling us to have no man as our father in that sense.

    I don’t like Platt. Never did. Probably never will. But that doesn’t make him wrong for being basically a “supply preacher.” Actually, it is the Biblical model.


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    Burwell wrote:

    I am sure my staff are wondering why I laughed so loudly a moment ago.

    Sorry about that…

    Reminds me of a famous one-liner by the late and much-loved English comedian Bob Monkhouse:

    When I said I was going to become a comedian, they all laughed. Well, they’re not laughing now, are they?

    While checking that one for accuracy, I came across this one too:

    I’d like to die like my old dad, peacefully in his sleep. Not screaming like his passengers.

    At which I laughed out loud…


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    Spartacus wrote:

    an abstract you who is just a part of a mass of faces

    This phrase lacks, IMHO, just a single “e”.


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Incidentally, in the spirit of holding fast to that which is good, I’ll choose to remember David Platt for his superb goal for England against Belgium in the 1990 World Cup finals in Italy:

    I’ve just looked again at David Platt’s photograph at the top of this thread. He looks nothing like David Platt. What’s going on?


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Last Thursday night, my church hosted a community hearing about a city street-widening project in the immediate area which affected them among others. Presented by a city councilman and including several city engineers. In the parish hall of my church. Got a bit lively, but no legal or 501c3 problems.

    That’s interesting. A church in my area was hosting some type of “Coffee House” service very late on Friday nights. Other businesses in the area complained that the “Coffee House” was not a legitimate church service because it was designed to attract young people and compete with their businesses. Therefore, the playing field needed to be levelized by having the church comply with certain business ordinances. I believe they prevailed.


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    Law Prof wrote:

    Nonprofits are one of my fields of research. Of course, were they to turn it into a profit center and start renting it out for profit, that’d be different, but nothing in the tax code stops them from performing a community service like that.

    Some churches in my area have a “Farmer’s Market” on weekends in their parking lot. The produce being sold includes commercial growers, according to the signs on their pickup trucks. There’s even a well known chicken barbecue company. I don’t know whether the church rents out the parking lot for profit or provides some or all spaces for free. I don’t believe providing free spaces to commercial growers and businesses should be considered a community service. All this flies under the radar.


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    the property tax exclusion that no other non-profit enjoys.

    I’m a liberal lefty too, and I think it’s high time to revamp the tax codes so that the loopholes are closed and that all non-profits (religious or no) must abide by the same rules…

    Late coming to this, but I have some issues with property taxes in general and can see why that might be a needed exemption. Some are completely reasonable, and some would run any old church in an area that appreciated out of town. We have a property tax exemption for people over a certain age for that reason, and it isn’t allowed to be increased more than 5% a year.

    Now, does pastor o’sittin’ around need a person ‘parsonage’ exemption up to 30% of his salary? Maybe not.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    think of how useful the church facility could be to the community — instead of sitting closed up 96% of the week

    This is one of the things my church actually makes a concerted effort to do…open the facilities throughout the week to various groups. They are very thoughtful about these sorts of things, actually.


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    So, a bit of a frustrating afternoon/evening trying to instal jUnit on the Mac. Despite endlessly checking the classpath variable in bash_profile, and umpteen different variations thereon, I couldn’t get a test file to run (it took long enough to get it to compile).

    🙁


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    @ Lea:

    that’s totally awesome. I’m astonished this is not the done thing, at least in my town. extremely disappointing, disillusioning.

    but then “disillusioning” applies to so many issues relating to this silly religion of mine. sigh…. it’s high time for change. i suppose it’s happening… just wish it would go faster.


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    Which is why (for me anyway) labels behave more like a fluid than a solid.

    To slightly turn the phrase, may your non-tribe increase.


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    @ Hope:
    I attended McLean Bible for about 4 years starting in 2000 and it certainly wasn’t Neo Cal then. I loved hearing Todd Phillips and Ken Baugh preach. I was shocked when I saw a Facebook post about MBC being affiliated with the Southern Baptists.


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    Lea wrote:

    Late coming to this, but I have some issues with property taxes in general and can see why that might be a needed exemption. Some are completely reasonable, and some would run any old church in an area that appreciated out of town.

    I know of churches that have moved into an area and purchased an existing building. The building which was on the tax rolls is now removed causing a decrease in the tax base and higher taxes for others.


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    Ken G wrote:

    The building which was on the tax rolls is now removed causing a decrease in the tax base and higher taxes for others.

    I bought my house and they promptly jacked up what it supposedly was worth. If you had a church in a city that had been owned free and clear for a 100 years it would end up being impossible to run if it wasn’t flush with cash. I see benefit to this in those cases. I would hate to see old church buildings have to all be sold because the congregation couldn’t afford exorbitant property taxes.


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    On the subject of tax: David Platt’s Radical Inc. (and also the Gospel Coalition and Ken Ham’s Answers in Genesis) are “non-profit 501c3 organisations”. I did a Google search on this and found that many other fundamentalists (whom I often disagree with) have heavily criticised churches and organisations that have signed up to 501c3. They allege that these “government churches” have sold their soul and their freedom to the State (according to their critics, the First Amendment already makes them tax exempt anyway). Their incorporation into 501c3 could have serious consequences for them if they are preaching against government legislation (eg. abortion, homosexuality or swaying opinion in favour of Trump over Clinton (or the reverse)). To be fair, I am not sure how accurate this information is but it is worth checking out.


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    Stetzer: “I’m very upfront with my role to my church. I explain I can’t do funerals, visits, phone calls, or meetings. This leaves the door wide open for our congregation to see areas of leadership where they are needed, and to respond accordingly.”

    Translation: I want the congregation to pay me (out of their hard earned money) to read John Piper and Gospel Glitterati books all day and fob off the real work to someone else.

    Sounds like he has taken Thom Rainer’s advice. Birds of a feather…

    David Platt had disgraced us with his presence in the UK last year. He was preaching at this annual thing called “The Northern Men’s Convention” in Manchester although I don’t know what the subject was. This year they have got the Pied Piper and years ago they hosted Mark Driscoll. Many of my friends from Gospel Glitterati churches invited me to the conference…so glad I declined and did not give a penny to them.


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    Hope wrote:

    We are disgusted that it’s gone neo-Cal and SBC. My husband said this evening that it’s like a plague and now even once-immune MBC is falling victim to it.

    This plague has even crossed the Atlantic and come to the UK. I have mentioned the FIEC network in the UK and they are selling themselves out to the Go$$$pel Coalition. They promote their conferences, they sell books by Piper, Mahaney, DeYoung and the rest. Their national director promoted Thom Rainer’s miserable article on why pastors should not visit often which explains why the pastoral state of their churches was extremely poor when I attended. Their doctrines are like leaven – and Jesus warned us to beware of the leaven of the Pharisee’s and Sadducees. Some things never change.


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    To follow my last comment…they have also hosted Mark Dever for a conference titled “Growing Healthy Churches” – most ironic!


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    Mr Platt aint got nuttin’ on Mr Crazy Buzy DeYoung. Full time pastor.TGC chairman. Seminary professor. PHD student. Books. Blogs. Conferences.


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    @ Dave A A:
    One more thing I almost forgot.
    Wife and seven children.
    Wonder what draws the short stick?


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    ZechZav wrote (quoting an established evangelical motivational speaker):

    “I’m very upfront with my role to my church [sic]. I explain I can’t do funerals, visits, phone calls, or meetings. This leaves the door wide open for our congregation to see areas of leadership where they are needed, and to respond accordingly.”

    I remember a quote from Rick Warren’s The Purpose-Driven Church in which he describes how often he hears pulpit professionals tell him, I just love to preach! Warren observes that this never impresses him, and that it raises the question of whether they love the people they’re preaching to as much as they love the rush of public speaking. At the risk of opening up a rabbit-trail of dislike for Mr Warren, he is at any rate correct on this, and he lifts the lid on something that needs emphasising much more often than it currently is.

    A lot of nonsense is talked about people’s fear of public speaking. It’s true that not everyone likes it, but many people do. Preaching is fun. Standing up on a stage, being the only voice heard in a comfortably organised setting where everyone is explicitly there to hear you speak, is among the most seductively intoxicating pleasures anywhere in this life. It’s no wonder men want it for themselves; it’s no wonder so many idealistic, but ambitious and easily-seduced young men are both dazzled by those who find fame and fortune doing it, and want it for themselves.

    The lure of preaching reminds me a great deal of Solomon’s “adulterous woman” in Proverbs 7, luring a “simple youth” to his destruction. The great irony is that, in their vast contempt for women, these young men are haplessly led (“like an ox going to the slaughter”) astray by preaching itself, the true “adulteress” in this scenario. And once fully addicted to the mind-blowing joy of preaching to a captive audience, who on earth wants to grub around in the tedious undergrowth of mundane serving of others?


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    @ ZechZav:
    And there is now a “DidaskoFellowship” of churches which is about to set up a “Didasko Presbytery”. This is made up of churches that left the Churchn of Scotland over homosexual ordination/ marriage etc and other churches that either are or became independent within the Gospel Partnership group.

    I came across the Disasko reference here.

    http://anglicanmainstream.org/leaving-the-denomination/

    When The Tron church heft the CofS their website said they were goingto join the International Presbyterian Church. That changed to an affiliation with an American Presbyterian group then that disappeared and the West Of Scotland Gospel Partnership arrived. Now we have Didasko.


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    heft = left.


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    Lowlandseer wrote:

    When The Tron church heft the CofS their website said they were goingto join the International Presbyterian Church. That changed to an affiliation with an American Presbyterian group then that disappeared and the West Of Scotland Gospel Partnership arrived. Now we have Didasko.

    Well, I think I can see what the problem is here. The Tron, and others (some of which are known to me directly) are looking for the perfect church network.

    What I would say is, if they ever find the perfect church network, they shouldn’t join it because they’ll spoil it.

    Yours sincerely,

    Arnold Smartarse


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    @ Arnold Smartarse:
    Lol. You never spoke a truer word. I did join it after attending for a year and then left after four months.


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    @ Lowlandseer:

    Abandoning the “Arnold Smartarse” joke for a moment (…!), there’s a church here in Stirling I know of that, as far as I know, has left the Kirk and gone independent; there are undoubtedly others locally I don’t know about. A lot of these groups are, to my mind, strongly analogous to the none/done population. They’re a kind of corporate “lone ranger Christian” (as the saying goes), having abandoned assembling together with anyone else locally, albeit trying to find some kind of belonging somewhere.

    All of which probably sounds more dismissive than I mean it to. In fact I sympathise with them to a certain extent, and perhaps I should do so to a greater extent insofar as they not unlike me. At least they’re coming to understand that, whilst it’s relatively simple to join something, belonging is more complex.


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    Dave A A wrote:

    Mr Platt aint got nuttin’ on Mr Crazy Buzy DeYoung. Full time pastor.TGC chairman. Seminary professor. PHD student. Books. Blogs. Conferences.

    If I’m not mistaken, K. Deyoung is also a competitive masters runner. I ran in a 5k on Labor Day where he won the 40-44 division.


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    Well, at least they will try and find you now or at least know your name


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    ZechZav wrote:

    To follow my last comment…they have also hosted Mark Dever for a conference titled “Growing Healthy Churches” – most ironic!

    Perhaps it could be in a negative sense…IOW, everything this man said to do, do the opposite.

    I never really made it past the Introduction in the book “9 Marks of a Healthy Church” because he did not include prayer in the 9 Marks. He paid it lip service in the introduction, but did not believe it as a sign of health. Same as most 9M churches – they pay lip service to prayer but don’t labor in much prayer.


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    Lowlandseer wrote:

    @ ZechZav:
    Have you seen what their next conference is going to be?

    Hmmm…is there NO one in the UK and/or Ireland who can speak at the FIEC Leaders’ Conference that an American has to be “imported”? Or is FIEC the T4G/TGC/9Marks beachhead in the kingdom? That makes me sad.

    For all the problems which have been pointed out about SBC Voices, Dave Miller, et al, made sure that the speakers at the 2017 SBC Pastor’s Conference (the prelude to the annual SBC gathering/business meeting) came from “small” churches (< 500 members) and, though all were male, they were not all white.


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    Dale Rudiger wrote:

    Dave A A wrote:
    Mr Platt aint got nuttin’ on Mr Crazy Buzy DeYoung. Full time pastor.TGC chairman. Seminary professor. PHD student. Books. Blogs. Conferences.
    If I’m not mistaken, K. Deyoung is also a competitive masters runner. I ran in a 5k on Labor Day where he won the 40-44 division.

    I wonder how much time he actually spends with his wife and children . . .


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    Bridget wrote:

    I wonder how much time he actually spends with his wife and children . . .

    Even if he mostly avoids distractions from pesky parishioners and students, and mostly recycles and repackages his content, there’s still unavoidable meeting time with the church staff who tend the flock, grad assistants who grade the papers, TGC comrades, researchers, editors, publishers etc. And all the travel time. Can’t leave much time for family.


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    Dale Rudiger wrote:

    If I’m not mistaken, K. Deyoung is also a competitive masters runner. I ran in a 5k on Labor Day where he won the 40-44 division.

    How many weekly training hours do you suppose it takes to actually be able to win one of those?


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    @ linda:

    Does everything have to be done according to the Bible?
    It’s a fair question.
    What’s wrong for you may be right for another believer and vice versa.
    Don’t get me wrong, the Bible is a great and wonderful thing, and as far as holy books go it has no equal. But I also think it has two drawbacks:

    1) Not giving it the credence it deserves at one extreme.
    2) And making way too much of it at the other.

    In my opinion, the real trick is how much of that stuff do you (generic you) wanna’ extrapolate out the Bible’s way back when and try an’ make it apply in the here and now?


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    Muff, yes, yeppers, yessiree everything has to be done according to the Bible. If not we are just setting up idols.

    We don’t usually see it that way if the way we want things is the way we are used to seeing them. So if someone says they want a handholding pastor rather than someone preaching the truth of the Word, we can accept that. We wouldn’t if they said they wanted a pole dancer, a stripper, and free beer. Then we can see that getting out of line with Bible changes the very character of the church.

    Don’t get me wrong–I believe the Bible clearly gives the church a fair amount of temporal authority and does enjoin us to provide for folks temporal needs, be they material or emotional or whatever. But the key is it gives that to the church, not to some supposed superChristian known as the pastor whom we pay to be the shaman and do OUR jobs.

    Imagine how differently the church would impact the world if the money spent on buildings and salaries went to meeting needs? How differently the Word would be preached if nobody’s mortgage depended on tickling itching ears? How different the whole church culture would be if the profit motive went away?

    Today isn’t all that special nor or we so special that we just know more than God. He knew when He inspired the authors of the Bible just exactly what would be going on now. Today isn’t news to Him.

    We do exactly what He said not to do, excusing it with the idea we are contextualizing it for today or that today is different than Bible times, and then get our panties in a wad when things go badly.

    Just suggesting we might try doing things His way if we want them to turn out well.


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    linda wrote:

    We made funerals and weddings church events when they never were in Bible times.

    Just because we are not catholic and they are no longer ‘sacraments’ doesn’t mean they cease to be important.

    I think the problem is less than someone might be only delivering sermons than that they are being paid, essentially, a full time salary or a hefty salary and are refusing to do the traditional ministerial/pastoral duties. If I want to just listen to a sermon I can do that online. You could pull a gateway and just pipe them in. Why a building, and a ‘pastor’ if they are going to refuse to do any of the real work of the church?


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    My problem with some of what is being said here is that the bible never says that it is a procedure manual for how to do church for cross-cultural purposes or for perpetuity or for that matter even in the first century.

    Example: did ‘the church’ meet in individual homes? Yes, sometimes. So what? Paul preached in the open, in a rented room, in synagogues, and in writing while on house arrest. The upper room in Jerusalem at Pentecost held a whole bunch of people and is unlikely to have been just somebody’s parlor. Jesus preached and taught at the temple, in the open air and in the home of Martha/Mary and Lazarus as well as in the synagogues and sent the seventy out to wherever they could get somebody to listen.

    But some people now say that if only we would forget church buildings and just meet in individual homes then that (and apparently only that) would be biblical. And, I suppose, the crowds can just forget it; how many people have houses that big? But then, I do suppose that the super-righteous could limit the crowd to only those who think alike-or like them or something, based on no room in the house.

    If one then takes this approach and looks at a goodly number of other things in scripture which Christians argue about one finds a lot more leeway in scripture than apparently some folks want to tolerate in today’s church culture and practice.

    The scripture is ‘profitable for..’ several things, but it is not a restrictive procedure manual for administrative details about how to ‘do’ church. Once the bible (or more specifically what some people try to do with the bible} is treated as simply a different version of the old Jewish idea of law and thus turned into a burden too heavy to bear-then we can quote Jesus himself about the fact that creating burdens like that is a big time no-no.

    When Jesus said that He would build His church and said that the Spirit would come, but failed to mention a new book of laws, I guess He just lost His perspective there for a bit?


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    ___

    “David Platt, An MBC (1) Teaching Pastor, Is Infected With Calvinism.” (Don’t let him infect you!)

    hmmm…

    The gospel [good news(tm) ] that Jesus presents in John 3:16, for those that are infected with Calvinism, is simply not enough.

    huh?

    You must have T.U.L.I.P., the doctrines of grace.

    So What?

    —> Well, Calvinism is not the gospel.

    Bump.

    (but David Platt thinks it is…)

    Calvinism, it comes from John Calvin’s “Institutes Of The Christian Religion”; which is simply regurgitated 4th century Augustinian Gnosticism, a false gospel message.

    SKreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetch!

    (Don’t be fooled.)

    What is Jesus’ gospel? : —> God so loved YOU that He sent His only Son, Jesus, that if YOU will ‘believe’ in Him, YOU will not perish, but receive God’s eternal life.

    Believe in Jesus today, you’ll be very glad YOU did!
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=I4vnQc59N-w

    (See the bible for details…)

    ATB ❤️

    *
    *

    KRunch!

    Has MBC (1) senior pastor Lon Solomon proclaimed the suspension of Jesus’ gospel, and substituted Calvinism in its place?

    hmmm…

    Could b.

    Not a sermon, just a thought…

    (tears)

    Sòpy
    ___
    (1) McLean Bible Church, https://www.mcleanbible.org

    🙁


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    @ AnonInNC:
    Yes and he is only speaking 65% of the time!


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    @ Gram3:
    I could not agree more!!!


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    @ Hope:
    It is very sad. And sadder yet many can’t see it!


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    @ Bill:
    You are spot on except for the money. Lon Solomon rarely asked for money in my many years at McLean.


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    @ ishy:

    That seems super deceptive to me. I mean, I don’t have a problem with using commentaries and resources to help plan a sermon. But a sermon writing service? How is that in any way a thing?! Surely the pastor should be praying and asking God what He wants the pastor to say to this particular congregation in this particular moment? I saw this with the vicar of an Anglican church I used to go to. On more than one occasion he preached a sermon almost word for word from one of Tom Wright’s books. Even using the same example and telling them as if they had happened to him. I was furious but also too new to the church and too scared to call him out on it.


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    @ Abigail:

    I hate that. Every church needs an actual pastor who actually is physically present and actually knows and cares for his people. One guy is not so indispensable and amazing that we need a video feed of him; it can be done by a real person in the location. If one person does happen to have a message that the church feels is important to be shared across all the campuses, then that person can travel around and deliver the message in person.


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Standing up on a stage, being the only voice heard in a comfortably organised setting where everyone is explicitly there to hear you speak, is among the most seductively intoxicating pleasures anywhere in this life. It’s no wonder men want it for themselves; it’s no wonder so many idealistic, but ambitious and easily-seduced young men are both dazzled by those who find fame and fortune doing it, and want it for themselves.

    Remembering your thoughts from another post equating charismatics need for a sign (miracles) and evangelicals need for a sign (changed lives), I suppose preaching is another sign that is used to mesmerise the patrons, and like you suggest, build an empire.

    Problem is Jesus shepherded in another fashion and ran off when people wanted him to be a celebrity. Would be beneficial if more people pastored in like fashion.

    “14 When the people saw him[b] do this miraculous sign, they exclaimed, “Surely, he is the Prophet we have been expecting!”[c] 15 When Jesus saw that they were ready to force him to be their king, he slipped away into the hills by himself.” Jn 6:15


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    Just where can you find all these multitalented people who are biblical scholars who can do all their own research, have a commanding ability at teaching, are people persons who are adept at counseling and hand holding and socializing (three different things there) and who will work 80 hours a week for minimum pay and who refuse to delegate but do it all themselves?

    And somebody please give me chapter and verse where it says that all these task skills need to be present in one person.


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    okrapod wrote:

    Just where can you find all these multitalented people who are biblical scholars who can do all their own research, have a commanding ability at teaching, are people persons who are adept at counseling and hand holding and socializing (three different things there) and who will work 80 hours a week for minimum pay and who refuse to delegate but do it all themselves?

    All due respect, Okrapod, these aren’t scriptural requirements for an elder. Nor are they necessary for a body of believers to function. One thing that does often seem to be missing in men and women these days is Godly wisdom.


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    Dale Rudiger wrote:

    If I’m not mistaken, K. Deyoung is also a competitive masters runner. I ran in a 5k on Labor Day where he won the 40-44 division.

    Oh yeah-thats the guy who shows us how not to be crazy busy-now *pastor* of a lg church and seminary professor. Lots of kids to boot.


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    @ Hope:
    I am a member of MBC…but now a former member as of today. Something feels very wrong about this transition and I am less than overwhelmed by Platt. Something is amiss. I can’t help but wonder if Lon was pushed out.


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    Dale Rudiger wrote:

    Dave A A wrote:
    Mr Platt aint got nuttin’ on Mr Crazy Buzy DeYoung. Full time pastor.TGC chairman. Seminary professor. PHD student. Books. Blogs. Conferences.
    If I’m not mistaken, K. Deyoung is also a competitive masters runner. I ran in a 5k on Labor Day where he won the 40-44 division.

    He sounds like a driven man. It makes me wonder what he’s running from. Running so fast, so frantically cramming his life full to overflowing, it doesn’t seem as if there would be any time left over to listen to a still small voice, among the least of these.


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    @ okrapod:
    On the other hand, in the church some members of my family attend, there is the sometimes subtle and sometimes in-your-face message that if you don’t attend a church following the 9Marks model on a regular basis (no! not just attend! sign a covenant with!), you are neglecting the gathering together of the saints.

    Small fellowships are well and good, but you darn well better get your fanny in a seat to hear the pastor preach on a regular basis, or else you’re doin’ it wrong.

    So far they haven’t bothered us too much about the whole covenant signing thing, but I’m concerned… What’s going to happen when the new church covenant to replace the old (two churches are merging) comes in, and the push comes to get everyone to sign the new one? (That may be why they haven’t pushed us too hard to sign the old one.)

    I keep hearing that echo from that 9Marks newsletter I read online, where someone asked what to do if people didn’t want to sign a covenant, and the answer was to reason with them and then ease them out if they wouldn’t sign. (Make it uncomfortable for them by degrees, so that they sign or leave? I don’t remember the details, just that I got the idea that they shouldn’t be encouraged to attend and fellowship with the body if they’re not comfortable making a commitment in writing. It’s “the wrong place for them” and “they ought to go out and look for a better fit”–not quotes from the letter, but a general impression I have retained from reading that Mailbag article a few years ago.)


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    Sopwith wrote:

    Calvinism, it comes from John Calvin’s “Institutes Of The Christian Religion”; which is simply regurgitated 4th century Augustinian Gnosticism, a false gospel message

    Is this the same Augustine who is considered one of the fathers of the faith? Augustine of Hippo, author of The City of God?


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    @ linda:

    We could argue this stuff back and forth until the ice sheets start moving South again and it would accomplish nada, zilch, and zero. I’m not gonna’ convince you, and you ain’t gonna’ persuade me. We’ll just have to agree to disagree. And that’s okay too. TWW has long been a safe place for folks of differing views and differing faiths.


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    I believe in the paid pastor role – a laborer is worthy of his/her hire. A shepherd is one who feeds. This feeding of the flock is via the Word of God and given out with a piece of oneself. It is both costly and enriching to do so.
    The flock is right in holding its paid shepherd role accountable, sadly lacking today. This discussion so far has focused on ministry unto the flock, but Leviticus is full of “ministry unto the LORD.” I wrote the following a few years ago:

    Nothing compares to knowing Him

    No thing compares to knowing Him. No created thing compares to knowing Him. No science or study of created things compares to knowing Him – in short, theology over sociology (social sciences or created things).
    We minister unto the LORD. Out of that tent of meeting comes the grateful and loving response of worship and service. We do not build service upon ministering unto others – created things cannot be our motivation. Moses and Joshua ministered unto the LORD; Samuel was ministering unto the LORD (trimming the lamps); Paul and Barnabas were ministering unto the LORD when the Spirit separated them unto Himself (Acts 13:2). One could have ‘successful ministry’ (cast out demons, heal, & build numerical flocks), yet be told to depart for He never knew you (Matt. 7). Everything is predicated upon knowing the LORD!
    Insidious idolatry always tries to put the created thing ahead of the Creator. Many today are flocking to leadership seminars in order to learn how to fish from successful fishermen – sociological pragmatism, pop psychology, new models of ministry, and ad nausea. Our LORD has said, ‘Follow me and I will make you fishers of men.” Out of the tent of meeting, God will make you. This is not to say that valuable info can’t be gained from the study of created things. Where is most of one’s time spent? Does theology (study of God) take precedence in your schedule? Our forefathers knew that the study of God’s Word and prayer was the foundation for ministry. We have greatly improved our administration (add ministry) for which I am thankful. But it has come at the cost of ministry (unto the LORD, tent of meeting). Is there anyone who has a word from the LORD?
    We are in great peril if our skills and talents exceed our spiritual character. For leadership (in Timothy and Titus) is predicated upon godly character traits and just one skill, apt to teach. God will make you into His image in the tent of meeting. The suffering of self-sacrifice in this tent of meeting will produce the godly character necessary for ministry unto the LORD, and then unto others. Those who know Christ (theo) best are better suited to ministry, not those who know sinners (socio) best.
    The worth of something is predicated upon its cost. If we hope to reveal the worth of God’s love to others, what has it cost us? If it is only value-added, the world will view us as self-interested and just another organization of created things bent in upon itself. If we show the world what a high cost we are willing to pay for God’s love, the world might be able to look outside the order of created things and see a Hope that they would be willing to pay the cost for. Who will pay the cost as a revelation of the worth of God’s love? Count it all joy to pay the cost and reveal His worth! Nothing compares to knowing Him!


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Preaching is fun. Standing up on a stage, being the only voice heard in a comfortably organised setting where everyone is explicitly there to hear you speak, is among the most seductively intoxicating pleasures anywhere in this life.

    Very true and this phenomenon applies to the congregation as well. I recall attending a church where the congregation would share some testimony, praise, blessing, etc. It seemed like individuals from same small group would always have something to share while everyone listened. I had often wondered whether they just liked to hear themselves speak? I think I now have the answer.


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    Tekva wrote:

    I am a member of MBC…but now a former member as of today.

    Look for a church in which the pastor knows your name and will sit by your bedside when you are in the hospital. Platt, unfortunately, was merely a podcast in person.


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    To our readers

    Apparently this post is getting a lot of play out there. I have been hearing from a few folks. Take this opportunity to tell these supposed *pastors* what you think a pastor should be.


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    dee wrote:

    To our readers
    Apparently this post is getting a lot of play out there. I have been hearing from a few folks. Take this opportunity to tell these supposed *pastors* what you think a pastor should be.

    Our church is currently seeking a new pastor and articles like this are extremely useful to help us figure out what is/isn’t a pastor! Platt is clearly NOT a pastor. Guest speaker or consultant perhaps, but not a pastor. Reminds me of our former YRR pastor who told us he didn’t come here just to “serve, serve, serve all the time!” Still scratching my head over that one! Thanks!


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    okrapod wrote:

    Just where can you find all these multitalented people who are biblical scholars who can do all their own research, have a commanding ability at teaching, are people persons who are adept at counseling and hand holding and socializing (three different things there) and who will work 80 hours a week for minimum pay and who refuse to delegate but do it all themselves?
    And somebody please give me chapter and verse where it says that all these task skills need to be present in one person.

    They’re not, but that’s not really the point here. I do think that it is a poor idea to have a “teaching” pastor who doesn’t know her or his flock, as I agree with Bridget that pastors should be driven by the Spirit to attend to the needs of the congregation. Having been in SBC churches for 20 years, I can honestly say that most megachurch sermons are shallow and quite devoid of teaching of Scripture. Nor do they ever get any deeper. Because those are more entertaining, particularly to a TV audience.

    But there’s a lot of bigger issues that a lot of people here have mentioned. Celebrity pastors who are in it for the fame, money, or to deceptively change a church polity. Being hired to spend your week writing sermons and you lie about it and let someone else write them. And in most of these churches, members aren’t allowed to do much ministry either, because they have paid staff for that who make 4-10x more than the average member of the congregation.

    The worst, to me, is that much of this is NOT ministry. There’s very little Scripture in sermons. The pastor spends no time ministering to the congregation or outside it. Everything is for show to make the congregation think there’s actual ministry going on.


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    ishy wrote:

    Having been in SBC churches for 20 years, I can honestly say that most megachurch sermons are shallow and quite devoid of teaching of Scripture.

    The same is true for many ARC churches. Much of the sermon is basic storytelling. I actually timed it once. In a 35 minute sermon, how much time would you think was spent either reading from the Bible or explaining with those versus meant? About 3 minutes. They also repeat the same series of sermons at the same time each year, and the series are the same ones that you’ll hear at other Arc churches. Deep stuff like At the Movies or You Asked for It.


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    ishy wrote:

    Having been in SBC churches for 20 years, I can honestly say that most megachurch sermons are shallow and quite devoid of teaching of Scripture. Nor do they ever get any deeper.

    In many of them, and also non-denoms, they are both shallow AND long.

    My church now has quite short sermons, with liturgy. But we have some in depth sunday school classes.


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    Lea wrote:

    ishy wrote:
    Having been in SBC churches for 20 years, I can honestly say that most megachurch sermons are shallow and quite devoid of teaching of Scripture. Nor do they ever get any deeper.
    //
    In many of them, and also non-denoms, they are both shallow AND long.

    I know, I mean, how many golf stories can one hear?


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    ishy wrote:

    I know, I mean, how many golf stories can one hear?

    Or insipid video series made by the pastors wife/youth group/whatever?


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    Lea wrote:

    ishy wrote:
    I know, I mean, how many golf stories can one hear?
    Or insipid video series made by the pastors wife/youth group/whatever?

    But who else is going to feature that boring hallway that nobody ever uses?


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    ishy wrote:

    …most megachurch sermons are shallow and quite devoid of teaching of Scripture. Nor do they ever get any deeper. Because those are more entertaining, particularly to a TV audience.

    Have you considered that it’s because most megachurch pastors care very little about Scripture, as that’s just not the point? They care about as much about the Bible as they do about the truth, about justice, about the Fruits of the Spirit, about Jesus, and about those who have been made in His image.


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    Burwell wrote:

    is there NO one in the UK and/or Ireland who can speak at the FIEC Leaders’ Conference that an American has to be “imported”? Or is FIEC the T4G/TGC/9Marks beachhead in the kingdom? That makes me sad.

    Sadly yes the FIEC has become the beachhead for T4G/TGC and the 9Marxist groups. And yes very sad. I can’t think of any “big names” in the UK but that doesn’t matter – there are plenty of gifted people within local churches. I don’t understand why they want to borrow celebrities. One time my former FIEC church had Don Carson come to preach and my friends were so excited by it. When I asked them “What is he preaching on?”, they didn’t seem to know. The fact that he was preaching was all that mattered!


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    Law Prof wrote:

    ishy wrote:
    …most megachurch sermons are shallow and quite devoid of teaching of Scripture. Nor do they ever get any deeper. Because those are more entertaining, particularly to a TV audience.
    Have you considered that it’s because most megachurch pastors care very little about Scripture, as that’s just not the point? They care about as much about the Bible as they do about the truth, about justice, about the Fruits of the Spirit, about Jesus, and about those who have been made in His image.

    I don’t disagree. But since we were talking about why hire a teaching pastor who is already employed full-time elsewhere for only the purpose of giving sermons, and okrapod asked why can’t pastors and staff be diversified. They can. But now most megas treat their head/lead/teaching pastor as the answer to continued success as a church and I think it’s a reason for this very unhealthy obsession with Christian celebrity pastors.

    They say they study and write sermons for 20-25 hours a week. They say they write their own sermons. They say the importance of the sermon is a reason they can’t have any interaction with the congregation. I think it’s all bogus. So yes, I do think they don’t really care about the other things, too. But those things are not what they are hired to do in megachurches.


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    dee wrote:

    Look for a church in which the pastor knows your name and will sit by your bedside when you are in the hospital.

    That sounds like a good first step, but it’s not a guarantee. Case in point; many years ago my mother, a widow, attended a small church. Many times the pastor would come over to her home after the Sunday service for coffee, cake and to talk. She never told me what they talked about, but she spoke very highly of him and enjoyed having him visit. Her health took a turn for the worse and she past away while in intensive care. I called the church to make the funeral arrangements and notify the pastor. The response – I had no right to ask to speak to the pastor, the pastor is a very busy man (busy doing what?) and he doesn’t commit to funerals and all flowers had to comply with their flower policy. There were no condolences from the church, nothing. The pastor did show for the funeral, but came with an understudy (seminary student?). The pastor never spoke to me and his understudy said something goofy, like “Isn’t the sky blue today?” There were a total of about 15 people at the funeral. It’s possible this man simply feigned interest in my mother hoping she would tell him that she would leave some $$$ to the church.


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    dee wrote:

    To our readers

    Apparently this post is getting a lot of play out there. I have been hearing from a few folks. Take this opportunity to tell these supposed *pastors* what you think a pastor should be.

    I do think ministry of the Word takes precedence over pastoral care. Both should be evident, though. One is an outgrowth of the other.
    I’m a newbie here, so I’m reluctant to put up a lot of text, but I do think this is applicable to the discussion. I felt the LORD give me this analogy/story line a few years ago concerning juggernaut corporate bakeries and local artisan bakeries. For those across the pond, ConAggerback is word play on ConAgra and Saddleback Church, and General Willow Mills is play on General Mills and Willow Creek.

    The Forgotten Mandate: Feed My Sheep or Putting Bread on the Table

    David said, “Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies.” In the tabernacle was a table with showbread and a candlestick. The bread is indicative of the Bread of Life, and the lighted candlestick indicates someone’s home – the presence of the Holy Spirit. Oh, that we would prepare bread for our congregations and that the Holy Spirit would be present to illuminate the Bread! We should consider what ought to be on the table in the tabernacle.
    In recent years we have made great strides in add ministry; that is, administration. This should not be confused with ministry. Improvements in administration were sorely needed and we have become better stewards.
    Think of a bakery. One can improve the business by power of advertising and might of distribution. Marketing a need for the bread will create a desire for those who feel that by purchasing the bread, they too will be beautiful, successfully suburban with beautiful spouse and kids under blue skies – like the advertising. My life is so much better now that I have the bread/dough (double entendre). More customers flock in/buy in to the marketing strategy and feel that the product enhances their life – it’s even enriched and fortified. Madison Avenue helps to appeal to the wants and desires of the target audience.
    Next, improvements in distribution will enable more people to have access to the bread: more markets and bigger market-share. More trucks and drivers, better on-line delivery and inventory control systems all make for increased efficiencies. Most bakeries by this time will start feeling the cash flow pinch. Yes marketing is creating more customers, and increased investment in distribution helps to deliver the product and access to more markets; but a shifting of resource allocation and cost-cutting measures are needed. No longer is this business an artisan bakery, but a big time corporation.
    Uniformity of the product and driving down of the raw cost of goods is next on the agenda. Rather than whole-wheat flour with all its bran and uneven texture, enriched bleached white flour makes a uniform product – and its cheaper and plentiful from corporate granaries that have their own juggernaut marketing and distribution channels. They will help the bakery improve marketing and distribution: Corporate granaries such as ConAggerback and General Willow Mills. No longer are the artisan bakers needed – too costly; standardize the formula and hire those who will not think but just follow the dictates of the formula – ‘how to do it.’ It’s soft and glides down the throat – kids love it with the crust cut-off. Its soft texture conforms to you when you grasp it! Its high-glycemic index gives a rush of exhilaration as it floods into the bloodstream like pure sugar. You can feel it! The shareholders are proud of their new corporate bakery enterprise.
    Soon the hospital evidences a growing problem. More and more of the community are showing up with poor eyesight and bad circulation in the feet. Ever wonder (Wonder Bread) why the lame and the blind are mentioned so often together in scripture? They are the symptoms of diabetes – an epidemic in our generation. The quick exhilaration of excitement and energy packaged with brightly colored dyes is an easy sell to the consumer. It leaves in its wake dis-ease. How many of our churches are creating spiritual diabetics? – unable to endure sound doctrine of bitter, the roughage of whole bran, the artisan heavy-bread with its uneven texture and low-glycemic index but a lasting satiety which sustains the hungry soul! The blind are unable to discern and the lame are unable to walk by faith. Do we then marginalize the spiritually handicapped after we’ve sold them the uniform white, conforming to you, mass produced bread? Do we condemn them after we have taken our profit (Ezek. 34:1-10)?
    The wonder of it all is that God still honors His Bread. Even during a famine, the lowly, needy, hungry lepers find bread in another camp (1 Kings 7:9) – the presence of their enemies, and proclaim the “Good News” that will end the famine. It is ended, neither by might of appeal (marketing) nor power of delivery systems, but by My Spirit, says the LORD. Is it any wonder why those of discerning tastes are leaving the brand of loyalty and switching bakeries? We ought to consider again what we are putting on the LORD’s table and to who we are accountable: the hungry souls, and the One who blesses, breaks, and gives.


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    Somewhere along the line, not some religious line but I forget just where it was taught, that ‘Man is made of many needs. He feeds the one that gnaws him most.”

    I am thinking that the success of megas is not just about celebrities, just judging from the success of the local mega. A Methodist pediatrician I used to work with when we both worked for the Feds once said that (local SBC mega) was ‘better organized than Reynolds Tobacco’. He believed, and I also think, that is was part of its success.

    A friend of one of my kids has stuck with SBC mega through its transitioning into calvinist/ comp/ elite and IMO one reason is precisely the organization judging from what I know of that person in other areas of his life.

    In other words, I am thinking that different people have different needs, and some folks cannot deal with chaos and want rules and procedures and organization and having somebody ‘in charge’.

    I don’t think this is the only issue, but I think it is one.

    Personally, I respect organization, but my most pressing need is for substance. I have heard so much drivel from the pulpits over the years that they probably won’t even have to use formaldehyde, or whatever, on my body; the drivel will be enough preservative. But if somebody puts out substance I will sit on the pew and put money in the plate and forgive an awful lot to get it. Which is part of why I like liturgy; the sermon can be a dud but there is still substance in the rest of the service.

    Different people; different needs. And no, I do not see in scripture where it says that we all have to be alike.


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    dee wrote:

    Platt, unfortunately, was merely a podcast in person.

    What a perfect way to capture the video presenter multi-site phenomenon. As much as I fault 9Marks, one of the things that Mark Dever got right was a panel discussion at SBTS many years ago about multi-site churches. At least I think it was Dever, though it may have been one of his lieutenants. Anyway, he was a clear advocate for personal pastors and not video presenters at multi-sites.

    “Podcast in Person” reminds me of the scary movie. Pod People do not need more than a podcast, and are very easy to manage. Real people need real pastors who walk with them through real life like Jesus did, not an image projected on a screen that is scripted and is not real. Those of us who have seen behind the curtain know that it is not real. What never ceases to amaze me is that many who know that do not care as long as they get to participate in the fantasy! Madness.


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    And one more thing. I hear some of you saying that you want a personal interaction with a pastor. And I do not want that. I have not seen any statistics about what percentage of whom want what, but I too have seen behind the curtain, but it is the curtain not of some organization but rather the curtain behind which lurk the professionally religious, and I want none of the like messing with my life/ family/ ideas or whatever. When I have disasters, and I have had a few, the last thing I need is one more person trying to get involved.

    Disclaimer: We have had a pastor/missionary in the family-by marriage-and I came close to getting fitted for an orange jump suit over that rascal. Not to mention the let-us-introduce-you-to-some-seminary-students during nursing school. Arrrgh.


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    ZechZav wrote:

    I don’t understand why they want to borrow celebrities.

    People do what they think will achieve the goal that they have. As you said, there are clearly gifted men and women in the UK equal to the Anyabwiles and the others. So then why else? The Anyabwiles can draw a bigger crowd? Human nature says yes. The organizers can gain favor with the Gospel Glitterati by inviting them to the conference? Human nature says yes. Generally, human nature is fairly predictable once we give up the notion that we ourselves or our group is somehow exempt.

    Using the same idea to answer another enigma, why did Mark Dever himself give up the entire 9Marks system in order to protect C.J. Mahaney? I think the answer lies in two seemingly unrelated things sometime ~1997 when 9Marks took off and when SGM became “Reformed.” C.J. gained entrance to the respectable theologians club, and Dever gained a proven marketing program. I think a marriage of convenience took place, and human nature made sure that it stayed that way when things became very inconvenient a few short years later. But maybe that’s just me trying to figure out how in the world the Odd Couple ever got together and why Dever sold out what he claims to believe so fervently.

    How interesting would it be if someone at the UK conference asked Thabiti or one of the 9Marks reps why Mahaney was exempted from church discipline when others are subject to it?


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    okrapod wrote:

    I hear some of you saying that you want a personal interaction with a pastor. And I do not want that.

    I would not list this as something that I ‘need’. Some people like to disparage any desire for a pastor to be more than a talking head as ‘hand holding’ and I do not do that either. It’s kind of what was talked of in wanting a place to be ‘well run’. My pastor learning my name and making a point to speak it in kindness is part of the thoughtful, welcoming aspect that I enjoy in my church. It is not the whole.

    I like the idea that, should I actually need real pastoral care at some point, it will be an option. I like that people can request things like meals after surgery. I think that is part of a church being well run, in a way. It can be a thing that is delegated, or passed out to certain members, or committees or staff. But it should be available.

    And I think a pastor saying they will NOT do these things says something negative about their attitude. It’s kind of like I got a new boss one time who made a point to tell the organization that he did NOT have an open door policy. He could have one or not, but telling everyone when you first meet that he does NOT tells you something and its’ not a positive thing.


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    More than anything, I want a church that’s actually about God.


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    TEDSgrad wrote:

    I do think ministry of the Word takes precedence over pastoral care. Both should be evident, though. One is an outgrowth of the other.

    I disagree here. All believers have access to Jesus, scripture, and the power of the Holy Spirit. We do not “have” to have a man to minister the Word to us from a pulpit on Sundays; teachers – yes, pastors (caregivers) – yes, administors – yes, elders – yes, etc.

    As far as one being the outgrowth of the other. I have not seen that to be true in most churches with most Teaching on Sunday Elders.


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    okrapod wrote:

    I have heard so much drivel from the pulpits over the years that they probably won’t even have to use formaldehyde, or whatever, on my body; the drivel will be enough preservative.

    LOL, and unfortunately true.


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    @ Bridget:

    Didn’t know why that put Okrapod’s named instead of TEDSgrad.


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    Bridget wrote:

    TEDSgrad wrote:

    I do think ministry of the Word takes precedence over pastoral care. Both should be evident, though. One is an outgrowth of the other.

    I disagree here. All believers have access to Jesus, scripture, and the power of the Holy Spirit. We do not “have” to have a man to minister the Word to us from a pulpit on Sundays; teachers – yes, pastors (caregivers) – yes, administors – yes, elders – yes, etc.

    As far as one being the outgrowth of the other. I have not seen that to be true in most churches with most Teaching on Sunday Elders.

    Hi Bridget,
    All believers do have access, yes.
    I don’t know what triggered you to interpret ‘have to have a man’ from my text. Please let me know so that I don’t continue to trigger you or others. My own mother has preached in the pulpit a time or two, or three…

    My Word as precedence comes from conviction that faith comes by hearing the Word of God. Who God is, and what He has done in Christ on our behalf takes precedence. Therefore, Who God is and what He has done is paramount for the faith community. Faith is a response to God’s Self-revelation. The Creator takes precedence, and His revelation of Himself is central. This is Creator-centric.
    Worship is the response to a revelation of Who God is. It is our reasonable service in light of Who God is. It contains: praise to God, sacrifice to God, ministry to others, acts of kindness, loving one another, and many more. Pastoral care fits, here. Ministry to believers is creature-centric.
    Without a revelation of Who God is, the people will run wild, unrestrained. They will respond with worship to the created thing – Idolatry. So a proclamation of Who the object of our faith is, gives focus to our faith, and direction to our worship (which includes pastoral care). Our main motivation is Who God is, and that informs us as to how to love one another (because He first loved us).

    Now every believer does have access, but in the church gathered there is order of service (not chaos) and some invested authority (don’t want to debate who and how much, just that it exists).

    I use Word, revelation, and proclamation almost inter-changeably. But they are the foundation to faith and give definition and motivation to service (in light of His great love). Faithful proclamation of God’s Word is essential, because it is upstream of faith and worship/service. To shepherd is literally ‘to feed.’ Also, the church scattered (during the week) is where much evangelism and service takes place, because they have just been fed on God’s great love.

    I hope this clarifies why the preaching of the Word is central.


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    TEDSgrad wrote:

    I don’t know what triggered you to interpret ‘have to have a man’ from my text.

    Nothing triggered me. The emphasis was on “have to have” not whether the person in the pulpit was a man or a woman. My reference to man was meant as “human.”


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    Gram3 wrote:

    How interesting would it be if someone at the UK conference asked Thabiti or one of the 9Marks reps why Mahaney was exempted from church discipline when others are subject to it?

    In the UK there has been a complete silence from UK church leaders about Mahaney. To be fair most denominations have never heard of him as the lawsuit has not received any media coverage over here. But the church leaders who are in bed with the Gospel Coalition and selling books by Mahaney himself, or DeYoung, Carson, Piper and the others really should know better. I wrote to one FIEC church elder who stocks books by Mahaney and he fobbed me off with “I am busy at the moment I will look as time permits” and that was over a year ago. In my experience, this is a typical response of FIEC church leaders and it is a cowardly of saying “I don’t want to know!” So sadly I doubt that any of them would care.


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    TEDSgrad wrote:

    but in the church gathered there is order of service (not chaos) and some invested authority (don’t want to debate who and how much, just that it exists).

    I don’t believe there is invested (maybe you meant vested?) authority. I believe Christians (the Church) have different responsibilities in the Church, not authority. When people function, in love, in their gifts and responsibilities there is no need for a vested authority. I don’t see a vested authority required in scripture.


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    TEDSgrad wrote:

    To shepherd is literally ‘to feed.’ Also, the church scattered (during the week) is where much evangelism and service takes place, because they have just been fed on God’s great love.

    This is odd to me. I don’t view Christians (during the week) as scattered. I don’t believe we are fed on Sunday morning in some special way. As a Christian of many years, Christ feeds me in many ways, in many places. I have heard nothing new from a pulpit in many years.

    Also to Shepherd means –

    a person who herds, tends, and guards sheep. 2. a person who protects, guides, or watches over a person or group of people. 3. a member of the clergy.

    To me, it’s not mainly about feeding. It is much more than that and there are many, many Christians who do this quite well without drawing any attention to themselves at all.


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    Bridget,
    In Hebrew, the verb to shepherd literally means to feed. In old English, the verb pasture was turned into the noun, pastor. Almost all words have their origins in the verb forms.

    I very much agree that many Christians do this quite well without drawing attention to themselves – do you mean positional recognition?

    Aspiring to the office of overseer – it is a fine work (1 Tim 3:1). For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a high standing (vs 13). The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching (5:17). It would seem that Paul is drawing attention to those who perform their offices well. But I could be mis-understanding you.

    I am saddened that you have heard nothing new from the pulpit in years. We do need bread from heaven – we live by the Word of God; it should come from the pulpit, but God can use anyone to bring forth a word, anywhere. Maybe a thread on ecclessiology would help define terms and roles – it is sorely needed in the contemporary scene. I could add philosophy of ministry as well.

    Authority is vested (I’ll go with that) in the offices and those who hold the offices. David respected Saul as God’s anointed, even though he had good cause against him. I’m not saying this is a blanket template to cover wrong doing, but it is there in the text to be considered along with all the other scripture, as well. Balance is such a godly thing, and takes time and I’m working on it.

    Thanks for the man/human explanation. I try to use gender inclusive language, but I don’t bend over backwards. Sometimes I think it insults women’s intelligence that ‘man’ can’t be a corporate term.

    I have been harmed and starved, too.


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    @ refugee:
    Yes but the issue of him and Calvin being promoters of Valentinian Gnosticism was put to bed a long time ago.


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    @ dee:

    dee said: “To our readers
    Apparently this post is getting a lot of play out there. I have been hearing from a few folks. Take this opportunity to tell these supposed *pastors* what you think a pastor should be.”
    +++++++++++++++++++++++

    not someone building a career. i could care less about your career. rather, an unpaid volunteer gifted in compassion & empathy.


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    TEDSgrad wrote:

    Thanks for the man/human explanation. I try to use gender inclusive language, but I don’t bend over backwards. Sometimes I think it insults women’s intelligence that ‘man’ can’t be a corporate term.

    I don’t try to use gender inclusive language. As many genders as people are claiming now there is no way to be ‘inclusive’ much less to do so with any common sense at all.


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    C. J. Mahaney was a promoter of toxic Calvinism for years and look what happen to those who were fed a steady diet of it at his SGM churches. Many of the long standing members were so messed up that when they tried to attend other churches, (when SGM stuff hit the fan) pastors of non-Calvinist churches began telling them that they were so messed up that these pastors could not possibly help them or their families. Viewing David Platt’s past online sermon videos smack of the same toxic religious syndrome in store for MBC members as well.


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    Jack wrote:

    Arnold

    As does C H Spurgeon, the author of the quote. This is it in its entirety. Throws a different light on things.

    “If I had never joined a church till I had found one that was perfect, I should never have joined one at all; and the moment I did join it, if I had found one, I should have spoiled it, for it would not have been a perfect church after I had become a member of it. Still, imperfect as it is, it is the dearest place on earth to us.”


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    TEDSgrad wrote:

    We do need bread from heaven – we live by the Word of God; it should come from the pulpit, but God can use anyone to bring forth a word, anywhere.

    Should it come from the pulpit only? Or mainly? I can see how this could be the cast for new converts, in the same way that newborns depend on the pre-digested proteins of milk. But at some point, aren’t we supposed to grow up into some degree of self-reliance, as far as the scriptures are concerned? And then, in adulthood, we become the teachers, the feeders ourselves? I may be reading too much into your comments. But making the pulpit and the weekly sermon the center of our spiritual lives seems odd to me.

    Christianity started around a table, not a pulpit.


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    I actually did. Joined a lovely little church which felt like family the moment I walked in the door.

    dee wrote:

    Tekva wrote:

    I am a member of MBC…but now a former member as of today.

    Look for a church in which the pastor knows your name and will sit by your bedside when you are in the hospital. Platt, unfortunately, was merely a podcast in person.


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    GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:

    TEDSgrad wrote:

    We do need bread from heaven – we live by the Word of God; it should come from the pulpit, but God can use anyone to bring forth a word, anywhere.

    Should it come from the pulpit only? Or mainly? I can see how this could be the cast for new converts, in the same way that newborns depend on the pre-digested proteins of milk. But at some point, aren’t we supposed to grow up into some degree of self-reliance, as far as the scriptures are concerned? And then, in adulthood, we become the teachers, the feeders ourselves? I may be reading too much into your comments. But making the pulpit and the weekly sermon the center of our spiritual lives seems odd to me.

    Christianity started around a table, not a pulpit.

    Hi GSD,
    Not only, but Sunday morning worship service public proclamation is the church’s most visible act. We are blessed in this country and some others, where we can have buildings and assemble publicly. We should do so, so the table is still valid, but so is the pulpit if governments/culture allows. Paul gave sermons in the public spaces and synagogues. Both monologue (preaching) and dialogue (teaching w/discussion) are valuable in the Church.

    Jesus said 3x, “Feed my sheep.” They are His sheep. Personal study is critical, and if a pastor can get the flock to “let their fingers do the walking,” then he has done a great service. We all need to be fed. If left to ourselves, we’ll always eat the same food. Sometimes we forget and need to be reminded. Sometimes, the flock is so tired and exhausted that it goes for a happy meal or a snippet. In growth and maturity, we need to feed others, and to be served, ourselves – both. This enhances the body that we are serving and being served – no one is exempt from either one. We need each other to properly interpret scripture – the body. WE need to correct others, and we need to be able to receive correction. The best theologians can go off track if left to themselves and their own view of scripture.

    As for the public gathering, God promises to be present where two or three are gathered. This promise indicates that God is present with the Body in a way He has not promised to the individual. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are exercised in a corporate setting. I could elaborate, but the post would be too long. Suffice to say, God desires a cleaned-up people group, where He can dwell in their midst. His Presence in their midst, is the witness of the Church (being not doing). Anointed preaching/proclamation is a big part of this witness. I hope I’ve answered your question.


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    Yeah, I think I get your point, and I appreciate the response. I just see things through a very different lens. Maybe it comes from living through two church blow-ups, and narrowly avoiding another, but I am nervous when a church is seen as the focal point of anyone’s spiritual life. Or when the weekly sermon is the main source of our biblical sustenance.

    And, I don’t see church life as being an effective way to keep theologians from getting off-track. The ESS controversy is a great example, but there are more.

    And while I’m at it, I’ve been on enough church building projects to know that buildings and public meetings aren’t necessarily blessings. The early church did without them for centuries, and was pretty effective. The same is true of the underground church today, especially in China.

    So, I might be jaded.


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    GSD,
    You’re not jaded, you’re here and you’re participating!

    We need to assemble, and we need each other to live out the “one another’s.’ Christ gave Himself for the Church. Seems like a focal point. The sermon or the gathering might not be experienced as anything significant to us, but we don’t know how others are responding. We shouldn’t let out own viewpoint be the only criteria. We exist for one another, too. Our collective gathering together has far more impact than the individual can judge from our own vantage point.
    We need a place to exercise our gifts, and to receive those of others – connected to the body and functioning. I hear your complaints. I wish I was left to be a layperson. If things do go bad, I could go home to house and spouse, and have my career. Lay people are the backbone of the church. I wanted to remain in that role. Who wants a job where you give everything, then the mob can take a vote as to whether you keep your job or not!

    Yeah, church life won’t keep theologians in check. But the body is more than church life, and the Academy is supposed to serve the Church. Things are broken all over.


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    C H Spurgeon : “The old truth that Calvin preached, that Augustine preached, that Paul preached, is the truth that I must preach today, or else be false to my conscience and my God.”

    C H Spurgeon : “There is no soul living who holds more firmly to the doctrines of grace (ed. aka T.U.L.I.P.) than I do …”


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    And like I said, making the pulpit and the weekly sermon the center of our spiritual lives seems odd to me. Remaining dependent on that sermon as your primary source of scriptural input seems odd too. I would put those other elements that you mentioned at the center, and leave the weekly preach as an option.

    For what it’s worth, my spouse and I are part of a home fellowship. We’re connected. But we’re also jaded when it comes to the typical format of church. We’re Dones. It’s a long and somewhat boring story.


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    TEDSgrad wrote:

    Who wants a job where you give everything, then the mob can take a vote as to whether you keep your job or not!

    I get what you’re saying, but people in regular jobs can be run out by one person who doesn’t like them. Or a CEO or accountant looking at the budget and deciding you’re too expensive. Very few people are in jobs that are truly ‘safe’.


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    Lea,
    I understand what you’re saying, but there are few legal resources for church conflict. The legal profession just balks. My father lost his position due to lies by officials above the local church and was told to vacate the parsonage with 60 days notice culminating Dec 31. Job and home gone in one fell swoop. That was a while back, though, when parsonages were still en vogue.

    GSD,
    Yeah, I have had to have church at home on three different occasions in life. It was never my preferred choice, though. I do it for my housebound parents on Wed. May you be richly blessed.


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    TEDSgrad wrote:

    and the Academy is supposed to serve the Church.

    What does this mean? I’ve never seen this in scripture.


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    TEDSgrad wrote:

    Yeah, I have had to have church at home on three different occasions in life.

    You are the church. You happen to gather at a home, is how I view this.


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    @ Todd Wilhelm:
    and to piggy back.. at MBC platt was speaking about salvation and missions.. and i quote “reason you were saved is to go on missions”.. not b/c God loves u.. not b/c God wants to spend eternity w/ u.. etc…


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    @ Sopwith:
    Mahaney was never a Calvinist, much the same as these New Calvinists aren’t either.


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    magnus wrote:

    @ Todd Wilhelm:
    and to piggy back.. at MBC platt was speaking about salvation and missions.. and i quote “reason you were saved is to go on missions”.. not b/c God loves u.. not b/c God wants to spend eternity w/ u.. etc…

    I think that Platt has a good point. The scripture says that we are saved ‘unto’ good works…

    For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath ordained that we should walk in them.. Ephesians 2:10 KJV

    So, why would it not be both. Why would the love of God mean that we were created to merely be lap dogs good for nothing more than some sort of warm fuzzy feeling. Scripture also uses terms like ‘laborers together’ with God. Paul talks about ‘the fellowship of His sufferings’. Jesus called us ‘friends’ not pets. Jesus said ‘if you love me keep my commandments’ and what were his commandments if not both love God and neighbor and also go ye into all the world …

    I don’t know Platt. Maybe he is off balance. But the idea that we are first born again and then immediately sent on mission of some sort (publicly profess the faith for example) was how we were taught back in the day in SBCville. Platt did not make it up nor is it original with him. This idea is part of what made SBC so missions and evangelism minded.

    The mission of God, if I may use that term, is the salvation of the world, not just the salvation of me and mine.


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    @ okrapod:

    But the salvation of the world has a purpose beyond that. John 3:16 God so loved the world….God loves us all and wants us to spend eternity with him. Yes mission is important but it is the means, not the end.


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    Zechzav wrote:

    Yes mission is important but it is the means, not the end.

    So if it is ‘the means’ then why are people upset when Platt says that people need to get with it regarding the means? Why would people say ‘Jesus loves me’ and just stop there; where is the rest of the sentence as to what that means to be loved by God?

    I think there is more going on. I think that people are more comfortable with ‘Jesus loves me’ (a song) than they are with ‘keep my commandments’ (a direct quote from the mouth of Jesus) and some folks find it easy to play the two off against each other in order to avoid whatever they want to avoid and take advantage of whatever they want to take advantage of. This gets dicey when one looks at Jesus’ own descriptions of the judgment, with Himself as the judge, and He spells out what people whom He knows look like in their behavior. It seems perfectly obvious to me that He wants more when it comes to eternity than just hanging around and thinking pleasant thoughts, so to speak. And it is He himself, the Jesus of ‘keep my commandments’ who says to some ‘depart from me..’. He may well ‘love’ all but he has said that not all survive the judgment. If one is to fulfill the requirements of love, then it is not enough that God loves us but we must also love God, the first and greatest commandment. If we then love God we will/should obey God, or so Jesus said regarding himself. Those things cannot be torn apart and pitted against each other; they are part and parcel of the whole.


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    magnus wrote:

    at MBC platt was speaking about salvation and missions.. and i quote “reason you were saved is to go on missions”

    I usually dread listening to missionaries speak, anticipating the guilt trip that they sometime put on other people for not being as extreme and missional and sacrificial as them.

    I find it interesting that Paul never did this, at least in his letters. He never chided believers to get out there, knock on doors, join me on mission, serve your community, hand out water bottles at marathons, plant a community garden. He always seems to focus on relational aspects, having a good marriage and family life, caring for each other in the church… Never a guilt trip about not being missional enough.

    Because healthy community is missional. People want to belong.


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    TEDSgrad wrote:

    May you be richly blessed.

    Thanks Grad. I’m asking God to give you Elders who are friends, and that things go well in your church.


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    okrapod wrote:

    Zechzav wrote:
    Yes mission is important but it is the means, not the end.
    So if it is ‘the means’ then why are people upset when Platt says that people need to get with it regarding the means? Why would people say ‘Jesus loves me’ and just stop there; where is the rest of the sentence as to what that means to be loved by God?
    I think there is more going on. I think that people are more comfortable with ‘Jesus loves me’ (a song) than they are with ‘keep my commandments’ (a direct quote from the mouth of Jesus) and some folks find it easy to play the two off against each other in order to avoid whatever they want to avoid and take advantage of whatever they want to take advantage of. This gets dicey when one looks at Jesus’ own descriptions of the judgment, with Himself as the judge, and He spells out what people whom He knows look like in their behavior. It seems perfectly obvious to me that He wants more when it comes to eternity than just hanging around and thinking pleasant thoughts, so to speak. And it is He himself, the Jesus of ‘keep my commandments’ who says to some ‘depart from me..’. He may well ‘love’ all but he has said that not all survive the judgment. If one is to fulfill the requirements of love, then it is not enough that God loves us but we must also love God, the first and greatest commandment. If we then love God we will/should obey God, or so Jesus said regarding himself. Those things cannot be torn apart and pitted against each other; they are part and parcel of the whole.

    This is true. I believe Jesus summed this up best when he followed up the first greatest commandment with the second, to love your neighbor as yourself.

    And this is wonderful . . .

    GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:

    I find it interesting that Paul never did this, at least in his letters. He never chided believers to get out there, knock on doors, join me on mission, serve your community, hand out water bottles at marathons, plant a community garden. He always seems to focus on relational aspects, having a good marriage and family life, caring for each other in the church… Never a guilt trip about not being missional enough.
    Because healthy community is missional. People want to belong


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    @ Bridget:

    how’s your son doing, bridget?


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    ___

    Sneak-Peek: “R U Representing Christ, Perhaps?”

    Lowlandsēēr,

    Hea,

    hmmm…

    The real eternal issue before us is not some form of Calvinism, but Christ!

    huh?

    “When people grasp us too strongly, either with their love or with their dependence, we are intuitively conscious that they are not looking to God, and we become paralyzed in our efforts to help them. United prayer, therefore, requires that the one for whom we pray be looking away from us to the Lord Jesus Christ, and we together look to Him alone” (1)

    What?

    …respectfully, as you anticipate heavenly things, make every effort to be found at peace with The Lord Jesus, and that pressing towards being without spot or blemish, growing in the grace and knowledge of our Savior Jesus Christ…

    The grace of Our Lord Jesus be with you!

    SKreeeeeeeetch!

    Please remember the Bible directly implies: All men will die in their sins unless they are converted, so when the Bible talks about the new birth(2), it is very, very important.

    “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new” (2 Corinthians 5:17).

    Look to Him & His word and learn ‘Honorable’ ‘Little Christ'(tm) , share what you’ve learned with others…

    (grin)

    (Please see your bible for details…)

    “The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever. Isa. 40:8

    Lift up your voice mightily, O Christian, bearer of Jesus’ good news; lift it up, do not fear. Say to the cities of America, “Believe in Jesus Christ and be saved!

    Yahooooooo!

    ATB ❤️

    Sòpy
    ___
    (1)http://biblehub.com/library/simpson/days_of_heaven_upon_earth_/april_22_christ_is_the.htm
    (2) The born-again experience: i.e. “A spiritual birth which transforms someone into a true Christian, a saint, by the activity of the Holy Spirit.” See Matthew 3:11; John 3:3-8; 7:39; 14:17; 20:22; Acts 2:38; Romans 8:2-26; 14:17; 1 Corinthians 2:10-12; 3:16; 6:11-19; 12:13; 2 Corinthians 3:3; 17-18; Galatians 3:2-5, 14; 4:6; Ephesians 1:13; 3:16; 4:30; 5:18; Philippians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:8; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Timothy 1:14; Titus 3:5; Hebrews 6:4; 1 Peter 1:2,22; 1 John 3:24; 4:13; Jude 1:20.
    *
    Notes:
    http://www.christianebooks.com/TheGrahamFormulaDownload.pdf

    😉


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    elastigirl wrote:

    @ Bridget:
    how’s your son doing, bridget?

    He’s doing well. Stomach full of staples for another week, but back to work with a few restrictions. Thanks for asking 🙂


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    What I find today, is the Church Growth Leaders have confused worship with mission. And the buzz word ‘missional’ has taken over their thought process. One can have a missions agency and not be a church. They know the church won’t stand for taking away the Worship Service, so they gut it of all meaning and keep the label.
    We are to go into all the world and BE witnesses. This is a predicate. Of course, we are to do stuff, but the text never says we are to do witnessing – as if it is apart from who we are.

    The Holy Spirit’s indwelling Presence IS our witness.

    It’s much better to have the Holy Spirit glory Christ in me, than I trying to be ‘intentional’ about it. Of course, we need the leaders to tell us what all this do-do looks like (imperatives, again) – it fills all their conferences and publishing. But they can never cover all of life, and if the manual was so complete, then we would not have the freedom to go and do. A scripted life is not freedom.
    If you are “in Christ” and have the Holy Spirit, then you ARE a witness and an ambassador. One’s talents, skills, personality are all part of that, and you do not have to suddenly come out of your introvert cocoon to become an extrovert Pied Piper.

    This is why ecclessiolgy and philosophy of ministry is so important. Definitions are all changing under our feet (the boundary markers are being moved). The Church gathered to worship is a witness that God indwells His people. Anointed proclamation shows that God speaks when all the idols of our culture are deaf and dumb. If we would just let God be God, He would draw all men unto Himself. Where is my intentionality in all that? – by BEING in right relationship with Him.
    If God is truly visible in our midst, we will not have to build bridges to the community; they will build them to us to get to God. We could show them how to have a relationship with God by being preoccupied with that, ourselves – separated unto Him. Be Holy, for I am Holy!


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    Bridget,
    The academy serving the Church is not explicit in scripture. A vague reference to Samuel’s School of the Prophets is a weak link, but possible.
    The academy is funded by the Church to produce pastors, theologians, missionaries, etc. These graduates then serve the Church. The academy usually complies with the doctrine of the Church that supports it. TEDS, while non-denom, is still owned and funded by the E Free.
    Over time, academies can develop an ethos that they are the repositories of knowledge, and then act as if they are above or outside the purview of the Church.
    It was always my thought to have one foot in the academy and one foot in the Church; thereby, bringing both together and exposing more people in the Church to the advantages of the academy.


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    okrapod wrote:

    I don’t try to use gender inclusive language. As many genders as people are claiming now there is no way to be ‘inclusive’ much less to do so with any common sense at all.

    And the “Global Replace String ‘man’ With String ‘person'” approach gets pretty silly.


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    Bridget wrote:

    elastigirl wrote:
    @ Bridget:
    how’s your son doing, bridget?

    He’s doing well. Stomach full of staples for another week, but back to work with a few restrictions.

    They must have gone in in laparoscopically.

    When I had (open) abdominal surgery 10 years ago (perforated diverticulitis), it took me a whole month before I could get “back to work” and seriously restricted diet.


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    GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:

    I usually dread listening to missionaries speak, anticipating the guilt trip that they sometime put on other people for not being as extreme and missional and sacrificial as them.

    Same here.
    As JMJ over at Christian Monist would frequently point out, there’s a LOT of Guilt Manipulation in the church.


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    Bridget wrote:

    It seems perfectly obvious to me that He wants more when it comes to eternity than just hanging around and thinking pleasant thoughts, so to speak

    We agree on this. My point was in response to a completely different statement – the idea that we are saved to go on missions. If we go on missions, it is for the salvation of the world and then that those who are saved may obey the great commandments – love for God and love for neighbour. Maybe I did not put it across very well and I certainly agree with you about the importance of the two great commandments.


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    TEDSgrad wrote:

    We are to go into all the world and BE witnesses. This is a predicate. Of course, we are to do stuff, but the text never says we are to do witnessing – as if it is apart from who we are.

    I do believe I read ‘somewhere’ about how can they believe in Him of whom they have not heard, and how can they hear without a preacher, and how can they preach except they be sent… That sure sounds like witnessing to me.


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    okrapod,
    Absolutely – we are to proclaim the LORD’s death till He comes. We are human beings not human doings. Being precedes doing, and that doing of mission also requires the Holy Spirit.
    For me, it’s a point of emphasis. First things first, since we’re lost in all the re-definitions while keeping old labels.
    The ecclesia, the called-out ones or faithful body of believers, is the Church separated unto the LORD. We gather together to worship the LORD and edify, exhort, and encourage on another (don’t forget admonish and instruct). Paul instructed Timothy to “give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching” (1 Tim 4:13); to ‘take pains’ with these things, ‘be absorbed’ in them, to ‘pay close attention’ to yourself and to your teaching, and ‘persevere’ in these things.
    If one uses the Big Show/Event as an evangelistic/attractionistic tool, how does that align with scripture, with worship, and with the definition of church. Of course, mission should be a function of a healthy church. But does mission swamp the Church? All of scripture is not the Gospel (Wisdom Lit., lament, apocalyptic, etc.). Isn’t all scripture is inspired by God ad profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness in order to do good works (2 Tim 3:17-8)? Or just not on Sunday morning.
    Is gathering together to ‘worship’ the right venue to go after the lost? Who would we be seeking after with all our heart, soul, and mind in a ‘worship’ labeled service. We do need to do both – seek the LORD, seek the lost.
    It’s reductionistic, but I like the Church gathered to worship (edify, exhort, encourage) and be fed; then the Church scattered (respective families, jobs, neighborhoods) to do missions/evangelism. Of course, you can do some evangelism at the church site.


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    If you love the Lord and truly follow the Lord, He will open opportunities where He wants you to be.


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    @ Tekva:

    and if he doesn’t, there’s no reason not to create them ourselves.

    my view is that
    –God can better direct a moving object than one that is stationary
    –God is interested in and respects what we think, our initiative, our ideas, our plans, our decisions
    –God can work with plan A, plan B, plan C, etc.
    –God wants to team with us and envigorate the process with his life-giving, explosive self
    –and for fun


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    They must have gone in in laparoscopically.

    Yes, Hug. It was an emergency appendectomy, but we got to the hospital fast and it had not ruptured. Dr. said it was about to go, but he got it out without the mess.


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    Bridget wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    They must have gone in in laparoscopically.

    Yes, Hug. It was an emergency appendectomy, but we got to the hospital fast and it had not ruptured. Dr. said it was about to go, but he got it out without the mess.

    With my diverticulitis (AKA “left-handed appendicitis” because the symptoms tend to mirror-image each other), I got into ER a few hours after it popped (equivalent to a burst appendix), but before the peritonitis had a chance to really take hold. Surgeon was able to do a “one-step” resection without a colostomy. Week in the hospital with IV antibiotics and drains (after a few days on NG tube and Foley – no fun), then recuperating at home for a month on a restricted diet. Took me six months before my stamina came back and over a year before my gut felt normal again.


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    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    Sorry you had to go through that, Hug. Anything bursting in there makes surgery, clean up, and recovery much more extensive. My son is also in his prime (26) which certainly helps recovery.


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    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    Well, I am officially terrified of diverticulitis now!


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    ___

    Lost In Space: “Gospel Replacement In Progress…”

    hmmm…

    How long will it take the 13-25 thousand people who attend services at the McLean Bible multi-plex Church in Northern Virginia on a regular basis to realize they are being had by preachers who are now pushing stealth Calvinism, and hanging out with and supporting 501(c)3 organizations that do?

    ___
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=llNnlE6Hbuc

    🙁


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    Ok, maybe I’m missing something but he’s offering to preach for free, the church is being very wise in they’re decision making, David Platt knows his family and what he needs to do to spend time with him.

    I appreciate so much the need for discernment and advocating for victims, but I don’t see any crimes here, just a lot of fault finding where there really doesn’t seem to be any fault. In kinda scratching my head here…


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    Ok, maybe I’m missing something but he’s offering to preach for free.

    Is this confirmed that he is doing it for free? Most pastor positions are salaried.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:
    I usually dread listening to missionaries speak, anticipating the guilt trip that they sometime put on other people for not being as extreme and missional and sacrificial as them.
    Same here.
    As JMJ over at Christian Monist would frequently point out, there’s a LOT of Guilt Manipulation in the church.

    AMEN! You both nailed it to the wall! Guilt induced “you are not giving me enough money for MY missions” and “you are not doing ENOUGH witnessing in your own life” as decided by me, the “missions director” for god.

    I am not convinced the “humility” David Platt exhibits is real, considering his celebrity status and the lack of persecution from “the world.” I believe he is fitting in quite nicely with the harlot institutional church, using the Name of our LORD for his own personal glory. Best to believe and follow Jesus, rather than in any man.


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    The church is the Bride of Christ, it is a place to make disciples and make the Gospel known. It is not a place where 1 man is in charge. It is the body of Christ.

    Shouldn’t we all be spending time with Christ, studying? I spend 7-10 hours studying God’s word and I am not preparing a sermon. I am preparing myself to disciple others. The Church is there to train us, teach us. It is not a place for mature Christians to sit in the back and ask 1 man “what can you do for me?”. We are there as a BODY to ask “what can we do to GLORIFY GOD?”


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    @ Chris:
    A lot of replies sound speculative . Prayer will lead the Church to Glorify God


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    Rachelle wrote:

    Shouldn’t we all be spending time with Christ, studying? I spend 7-10 hours studying God’s word and I am not preparing a sermon. I am preparing myself to disciple others. The Church is there to train us, teach us. It is not a place for mature Christians to sit in the back and ask 1 man “what can you do for me?”. We are there as a BODY to ask “what can we do to GLORIFY GOD?”

    I suggest you spend some time in your 10 hours of studying God’s word to review what is involved in being a pastor. I am taking a seminary course at the moment on pastoral leadership in a conservative seminary. I wrote about it in the post.

    And just in case you think that we are all sitting around on our duffs waiting for the pastor to do something, I want to reassure you that we are doing lots of things. Most people happen to believe that a pastor should be more than a podcast on legs.

    Also, I think it is wise to say we do things for others because we love them. By loving them we glorify God because God is love.


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    Rachelle wrote:

    It is not a place where 1 man is in charge. It is the body of Christ.

    PS-I am sorry to burst your bubble but the church is often run and controlled by a small group of men.


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    ZechZav wrote:

    Is this confirmed that he is doing it for free? Most pastor positions are salaried.

    Yes- he is doing it for free. He needed to do so because he gets a good salary from the IMB.

    Prediction: I bet he resigns from the IMB and this is the first step to getting his ducks in a row.


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    ___

    “Honored”

    “The church is the Bride of Christ, it is a place to make disciples and make the Gospel known. It is not a place where 1 man is in charge. It is the body of Christ…” -Rachelle

    hmmm…

    Dear Rachelle,

    Greetings!

    You are correct –if one finds a 501(c)3 church establishment which has all the makings/trappings of being a place where one man is apparently in charge, this is certainly not a true biblical representation of a local body of Christ. Those who choice encounter this suspicious and questionable phenomenon should exit this religious establishment quickly. As you are well aware, the spiritual life saved, may very well be a personal one.

    Please keep up the good study. It is an honor to have your presence and your concerned comments here at The Wartburg Watch. Your words today were very encouraging. I greatly admire the health in Christ you so earnestly convey and demonstrate. All the best! I look forward to further comments if you are so inclined…

    *

    “Seulement vous, Jésus peut montrer cette vision de l’homme aveugle!” (1))

    Blessing!

    Sòpy
    ____
    Casting Crowns: “A City On A Hill”
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XJ5R08xDC6c
    ADA – “Jesus, You Are Able
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HPqDaKajSnQ
    ADA – “Only You Jesus”
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MdQINUBlPno
    (1) fr. tr. “Only You, Jesus can show this blind man who looks!”

    😉


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    @ TEDSgrad:
    Wonderful


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    ___

    “Have Calvinism, Will Stealthy Creep, Perhaps?”

    hmmm….

    A 15th century religious darkness is descending upon McLean Bible Church?

    huh?

    If no one has the guts to challenge this false ninja TULIP gospel change agent, and the one who was ‘stupid’ enough to bring him on board, then McLean Bible Church will quietly descend into Calvinist authoritarian tyrannical darkness, its members none the wiser.

    What?

    No 501(c)3 sermon is free.

    The Calvinist are attempting to win a prized stronghold in northern Virginia. Will Its people slump into a false religious quagmire of fifteenth century religious darkness?

    Could b.

    —> Not a sermon, just a thought.

    Warning: Calvin’s ICR is not the true gospel of Jesus Christ, but a clever vicious lie smothering the life out of the Christian believer who seeks to embrace this incessant smoldering darkness.

    Latent Life Force: “Frozen Inside Without A Voice?”

    SKreeeeeeeeeetch!

    Resist or get out of this ‘infected 50(c)3 church’, the spiritual life you save may very well be your own…

    “How can you see into my eyes, like open doors
Leading you down into my core
Where I’ve become so numb, without a soul
My spirit’s sleeping somewhere cold
Until you find it there and lead it back home
    Wake me up, wake me up inside I can’t wake up,
Wake me up inside, save me,
Call my name and save me from the dark, wake me up
Bid my blood to run, I can’t wake up
Before I come undone, save me
Save me from the nothing I’ve become
    Now that I know what I’m without
You can’t just leave me…” -‘Bring Me To Life’ (1)

    ‘501(c)3 calvinesta stealthy church rape'(tm), has found its way as a serious topic of Christian public discussion, showing up in various forms of media: books, scholarly white papers, blogs, internet and radio talk shows, and church podium warnings all around the country. Beware! This present darkness is not just doctrine…

    (Best to take a lōōk for yourself, before it’s too late)

    [tears]

    (sadface)

    Sòpy
    ___
    (1) lyrics: Evanescence: The Evolution of ‘Bring Me To Life’: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EEHZ_-mE7Ao
    http://www.metrolyrics.com/wake-me-up-inside-lyrics-evanescence.html

    🙁


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    @ Sopwith:
    Sopy, you’ve been too long on the mushrooms I think.


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    Please don’t tell me that Lon believes in Calvanism…would break my heart.


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    ___

    “A Proverbial Shortcut To Mushrooms, Perhaps?”

    hmmm…

    “I think we should get off the road…” (1)

    (sad face)

    Lon knows quite clearly that the people of McLean Bible Church don’t throw stones…

    They drop them!

    ATB

    Sòpy
    __
    (1) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3mvDQWOQ2iI

    ;-(


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    ___

    “Every Challenge To Calvinism, Is A Heavenly Opportunity…”

    All of heaven shall hear my cry, ‘when Jesus returns, will there be faith upon the earth?’

    ATB ❤️

    Sòpy
    __
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LML6SoNE7xE

    😉


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    CJ Mahaney and Larry Thomsak (both names probably spelled incorrectly) were very instrumental in my early Christian growth with the TAG meetings in D.C. Really loved those meetings. I don’t know much about them beyond that — once TAG disbanded I lost contact — but a friend of mine did attend CJ’s church and said he was a Calvinist. Don’t know. If so, I’m so sorry to hear it.

    @ Lowlandseer:


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    My wife and I are part of McLean Bible Church and we were thrilled that David approached us and volunteered his time to bring us God’s Word. I met him the first time his visited this spring and he has remembered me and called me by name ever since (something akin didn’t do for the 12 years we have been there.) (Not that I think that is important but since the writer harps on that I just thought I’d mention it.) David is a gifted speaker and inspiring leader. I have read all his books and eagerly take notes from every sermon. Will David visit me in the hospital if I am ill? I hope not. He has bigger things to do. That’s what our church family is for. I think those who are critical of David and this arrangement with MBC don’t understand the church. Do you think the Apostle Paul really knew the names of the “thousands who were added to the church daily” or that he made hospital visits? At MBC we have a large pastoral staff who make hospital visits, perform weddings and funerals, etc. David is a teacher to the world, literally, online, through his books, through the IMB, etc. He is now “our teaching pastor” and I am thrilled God brought him to us.


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    Richard Norman wrote:

    Do you think the Apostle Paul really knew the names of the “thousands who were added to the church daily” or that he made hospital visits? At MBC we have a large pastoral staff who make hospital visits, perform weddings and funerals, etc. David is a teacher to the world, literally, online, through his books, through the IMB, etc. He is now “our teaching pastor” and I am thrilled God brought him to

    David is no Paul. There is no such thing as a teaching pastor in scripture. As far as being a teacher to the world, I hope the world reads scripture, knows Jesus, and does not believe everything that comes from David’s mouth or writings. They will be far better off knowing the Son of God.


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    @Richard- MBC@ Richard Norman:

    @Richard- My family also attends (Soon to be attended) MBC and feel the exact opposite. His sermon on Acts opened our eyes when he introduced some social justice themes in his sermon that had literally nothing to do with the text. We are called to be like the Bereans in Acts 17:11, so the more I followed up with David’s teaching I found that he plays fast and loose with Gods word. If I baked you 10 cookies but one had poison would you eat one or just throw the entire batch out? We both know the answer, yet don’t follow this when we have someone adding their own agenda.

    David Platt’s mission, whether he realizes it or not, is to make MBC a social justice church. Most of the congregation will never realize this as they are caught up in the cult of personality. MBC needs to pray for discernment and examine David’s teachings. I’m afraid Lon wanted out and this was the easy road. I’m afraid for our church….


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    @ AnonInNC:
    I would like to say to all of you. I had no idea who David Platt was two months ago, until I started listening to his sermons. I grew up Church of Christ however; denominations mean nothing to me. After reading your comments I was deeply discouraged, wow this man must be seriously egotistical and really has no heart for the church body. Then I had to remember all the sermons I had listend to and how deeply moved I was by his heart for Missions and Jesus. So I went and prayed, then listened to his latest sermon and once again I was reminded possibly by the Holy Spirit how anointed this man is. have you guys even listened to his sermons?? Im not so sure God is so worried about all our acronyms..SBC, IMB, etc… Is not our mission unity in love… Making disciples, preaching the word to all nations? He is doing exactly this! We should be supporting not admonishing!


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    I’m not looking for the perfect church . . . I’d settle for an acceptable church. I was fed by the sermons that Lon Solomon preached during the past year that I attended MBC. They took me to a new level of understanding God’s Word. Having grown up in a mainline Protestant denomination, this experience was fabulous. Based on that I was planning to make MBC my home church.

    David Platt ended that dream. His sermons – his weekend gig – are dark and uninspiring. And he has a whiff of self-righteousness about him. He demonstrates his attitude that he can “dress down” for Sunday service. Lon always wore a suit. Would David have shirttails untucked or wear a polo shirt if he was marrying someone’s child? Oh that’s right, he doesn’t do weddings. What next – pants down so we can see his undergarments? That’s another contemporary trend – so why not ape it in the church? The church needs to be contemporary, right?

    Now I don’t know what to do. Some of the classes taught by laymembers at MBC are outstanding. And I have also been enriched by being able to participate in some of the missions work at McLean. But I wonder if the drawbacks of the megachurch are worth those benefits. I wonder whether you can ever meet with ANY ordained clergy person at MBC. I asked to meet with the pastor and was referred to an intern and then to a lay minister. In the year I have attended MBC, I have NEVER known a single person sitting next to me at service. And why do they clap after singing hymns – are they glorifying God or patting themselves on the back? Is it a worship service or a rock concert?

    So here I sit on the fence – not wanting to miss out on the excellent teachings in small classes at MBC but hungry for community (that is what a church is supposed to be, isn’t it?). Maybe the problem is not David Platt but the mega church experience. But I have to ask, how can the walking podcast be my shepherd? I guess being on the fence is another word for being in the wilderness. Hopefully I can soon find a way out.


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    @ Preacherskid:
    I know what you mean about David Platt’s sermon style. I attended his church in Birmingham a number of times because my kids went to college in the area. I remember folks telling me to never attend the last Sunday morning service because he loves to ramble on waaaay over time since he doesn’t have to worry about the next service.

    He speaks very quietly and sometimes it is hard to make out what he is saying. I know he did this purposely since they had all sorts of huge speakers in his church. He is extremely casual in his attire and can come across *not put together.* But that is in keeping with his “I sacrifice and live in the bad part of town for the gospel even though I travel all the time and so only my family really has to endure living there from day to day.”

    To understand him better, read his book Radical. You will realize why you cannot live up to his standards.He is *better* than you although he will tell you he is the worst sinner that he knows.

    When I was in my former church, my husband, a friend and I led a Sunday school class that was well attended. Some people got fed up with the church service and would come to the class and not attend church. If you have a good class and good friends in that class, keep going. Instead of sending your money to the church, send it to charities that you personally know and feel connected to.

    My husband and I attended the Sunday school class in one church but attended services in another. We worked out a formula to give the Sunday school class church a small donation to pay for our seat and the heating, etc.

    Keep an eye out in your classes. My guess is that they are going to start monkeying around with what is being taught.

    Rumor has it that the IMB is super mucked up financially. I have recently been told that this is the beginning of moving Platt out of the IMB by letting him *discover* that he would prefer to preach instead of trying to dig himself out of the mess at the IMB.

    Prediction: he will come on board full time within a year.


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    @ Lydia:
    Or he saw the amount of resources that McLean Bible Church has and was to sway their donations.


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    @ Paul:
    You are one of the lucky ones if you can see through him. To others, it takes years, years during which lose sleep worrying about not doing enough social work and not being worthy of salvation.


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    Dee, I really like this post, as I used to work at St. Thomas’, an Episcopal Church across the street from McLean Bible.

    Yours is a valuable reminder, too, of how many clergy embody anything BUT the gospel.


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    As a former member of Brook Hills where David was once my pastor, I am concerned about this. David may be a great speaker, but he’s not a good people person in my opinion. He didn’t know our names in a 4000 member church. And that was his only job then. He once preached a sermon on Mother’s Day about biblical motherhood, and it was all about stay at home moms. When I emailed him asking to clarify if he believed working moms are disobeying God’s call, he forwarded my letter to an assistant to respond and I never really got a clear reply. He finally harped so much on Radical that my family left Brook Hills after 4 years, spiritually drained and exhausted. He was completely tone deaf to our concerns. I was thrilled to learn when he left Brook Hills and I personally don’t think he should be pastoring anywhere, frankly. It is not my place to question God’s call on this man’s life, but again, I have a lot of concerns about this. A lot of people love David Platt but I am not a fan, and the idea that he can lead the IMB and spend that much time on one sermon per week, while trying to raise a family and be a godly man, is astonishing to me. I will be very interested to see how long this lasts. He’s only been at the IMB for 3 years – I didn’t know it could be a part-time job.


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    Paul wrote:

    @Richard- MBC@ Richard Norman:
    @Richard- My family also attends (Soon to be attended) MBC and feel the exact opposite. His sermon on Acts opened our eyes when he introduced some social justice themes in his sermon that had literally nothing to do with the text. We are called to be like the Bereans in Acts 17:11, so the more I followed up with David’s teaching I found that he plays fast and loose with Gods word. If I baked you 10 cookies but one had poison would you eat one or just throw the entire batch out? We both know the answer, yet don’t follow this when we have someone adding their own agenda.
    David Platt’s mission, whether he realizes it or not, is to make MBC a social justice church. Most of the congregation will never realize this as they are caught up in the cult of personality. MBC needs to pray for discernment and examine David’s teachings. I’m afraid Lon wanted out and this was the easy road. I’m afraid for our church….

    Extremely astute comment, and I agree 100%. I used to belong to David’s former church in Birmingham and it took me several years to figure out what he was doing. Still, he remained there 8 years and was sent off to the IMB with cheers and praise.


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    @ Eric:
    CountEric wrote:

    @ Paul:
    You are one of the lucky ones if you can see through him. To others, it takes years, years during which lose sleep worrying about not doing enough social work and not being worthy of salvation.

    Count me among those who spent years spinning my wheels until I figured out I disagreed with David (what a concept! While he was at Brook Hills it was practically heresy to disagree with David.). I’ll never make that mistake again.


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    @ dee:
    Wow, I really hope he does not return to full time pastoring. I cannot question it if it’s really God’s call for him. But I experienced him as my (now former) pastor and while he may be a great speaker, he is not a good pastor. Not a people person, very opinionated despite his humble exterior. I butted heads with him over working moms and finally over Radical, and after 4 years of having those concerns ignored, my family joined the hundreds of people who left Brook Hills during his time in the pulpit. He would make a great traveling speaker, which is what he was before he came to Brook Hills. But a shepherd of people he is not. It will be very interesting to see how this plays out.


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    Jessica Steensland wrote:

    @ AnonInNC:
    I would like to say to all of you. I had no idea who David Platt was two months ago, until I started listening to his sermons. I grew up Church of Christ however; denominations mean nothing to me. After reading your comments I was deeply discouraged, wow this man must be seriously egotistical and really has no heart for the church body. Then I had to remember all the sermons I had listend to and how deeply moved I was by his heart for Missions and Jesus. So I went and prayed, then listened to his latest sermon and once again I was reminded possibly by the Holy Spirit how anointed this man is. have you guys even listened to his sermons?? Im not so sure God is so worried about all our acronyms..SBC, IMB, etc… Is not our mission unity in love… Making disciples, preaching the word to all nations? He is doing exactly this! We should be supporting not admonishing!

    You can support him by experiencing him as your pastor for several years. See how you feel then.


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    We have been attending MBC for 4 years. We had not heard of David Platt before he came there, but we have already decided we will be moving on.

    As others have already stated here, he is exhausting to listen to, and we feel very “beat up” after his sermons. I do not make any claim to have arrived as a Christian, but I do have a daily practical intentional walk with Jesus. I also have an active prayer closet and know how to use it.

    I know many folks like me at Mclean. I am sorry the elders feel that David Platt is the next best step for the Mclean body. David Platt unfortunately comes across as manipulating and disingenuous. Yes, a traveling speaker seems like a much better productive role for him… but we are just the uneducated layman of the church body, what do we know?