Sick!! This is so twisted…how can reason be so disregarded in people who claim to ‘have God’s discernment” or God’s anointing”?

God preserve precious children from this…

Whoa. Those father/daughter pictures on the Slate article are disturbing. Talk about your high “ick” factor.

I sure hope my daughter doesn’t ask me to take her to one of these things when she gets older. The idea of me being some sort of guardian of her virginity just kind of creeps me out.

Especially since there don’t seem to be any mother-son purity dances…. tells you whose purity is important and whose purity isn’t so important…

1. This story gives me the heebie Jeebies as does the whole purity ball thing, and
2. I am so glad this wasn’t a thing when I was a kid although I can’t see my dad going along with it in any universe.

@ molly245:
I am so sorry.

Mae wrote:

Why any church would promote a *former* pedophile, seems very foolish, if not borderline criminal.

I agree.
Do you think that these ‘churches’ might do this in order to get people to come in who are curious about the prurient ‘past’ of the pedophile? Look how many pastors bring on stage people who have terrible pasts but have ‘seen the light’ …. this seems to be quite a draw audience-wise.
Of course, we know that pedophiles never ‘recover’ and must avoid temptation (they will tell you this).

Yes. Stupid for sure, but if these lead pastor KNOW what they are doing is wrong, then oh-my-goodness, they have already made shipwreck of their faith ….. and for what? money?

?

“Cognitive Dissonance: A Child Molester Goes to a Purity Ball”

This blog title reminded me of a recent newspaper headline: “Bill Cosby Plans To Lecture Teens About Avoiding Sexual-Assault Accusations”

https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/people/2017/06/22/bill-cosby-plans-lecture-teens-avoiding-sexual-assault-accusations/103111714/

Talk about conflicting attitudes, beliefs and behaviors!

Christiane wrote:

Mae wrote:
Why any church would promote a *former* pedophile, seems very foolish, if not borderline criminal.
I agree.
Do you think that these ‘churches’ might do this in order to get people to come in who are curious about the prurient ‘past’ of the pedophile? Look how many pastors bring on stage people who have terrible pasts but have ‘seen the light’ …. this seems to be quite a draw audience-wise.
Of course, we know that pedophiles never ‘recover’ and must avoid temptation (they will tell you this).
Yes. Stupid for sure, but if these lead pastor KNOW what they are doing is wrong, then oh-my-goodness, they have already made shipwreck of their faith ….. and for what? money?
?

Truly, I have no clue why any church would do this.

I’m just guessing when I say maybe it’s because they think it makes them look very inclusive or perhaps they think sexual perversion can be healed. Maybe a combination of both perspectives.

Ugh–as I noted elsewhere, the subject of this post is a guest of the Arizona Department of Corrections (ADOC).

My brother is at home after surgery. He was pretty woozy even when they let us go and didn’t remember a few things the nurse had told us. But he seems to have come through it OK. The surgeon told me he removed a few bone spurs and junk that was messing up my brother’s shoulder. Let’s hope this helps alleviate the pain. Thanks everyone for keeping my brother in mind!

srs wrote:

Especially since there don’t seem to be any mother-son purity dances…. tells you whose purity is important and whose purity isn’t so important…

Exactly!!

But to TGC, is running a watchblog the sin that’s different from the other sins?

The people who make a show of that they’re so forgiving they forgive pedophiles have no trouble throwing out horrible fake Christian accusations to people who they don’t know and haven’t done anything. It’s just pretending away the real problems in the fundagelical world while doing what’s easy, like attacking decent teenagers for not living up to ridiculous standards of “purity”.

@ Mae:
“America’s Dad” forfeited that title. He just needs to go away.

Why did a child molester go to a purity ball?

Where prey congregates, the predators will swarm.

M. Joy wrote:

Whoa. Those father/daughter pictures on the Slate article are disturbing. Talk about your high “ick” factor.

Craster’s Keep Country?

In my opinion, the person going around spouting off about homosexuality being the worst sin is, in fact, misrepresenting the gospel and that should bother The Gospel™ Coalition.

But it’s the OTHER guy’s Sin, not ours, and THAT’s what’s Truly Important.

We learn in Christianity that if a man and woman over eighteen have consensual sex outside of marriage they are evil. If two homosexuals over eighteen have consensual sex; they are evil.
But if a man rapes a woman or a child it is no big deal, people need to get over it, and stop talking about it.

@ Muff Potter:

Should be mallet strike not ‘mallet atrike’.

Bullying.

In SGM circles, leaders were elevated and honored to a ridiculous degree. Also, CJ used mockery to shame people into agreeing with his teaching as a form of humor. In any circle, certain groups are valued. It did not take leader’s children very long to realize their group was the valued group and it empowered them to bully those who were lesser. This was especially prevalent when the teaching centered around mocking those who were not godly enough. Many people plead for years for the pastors to stop mocking from the pulpit because of the bullying and abuse being exhibited by their children upon members of the congregation.

Probably the greatest trauma coming out of SGM would be the hundreds or even thousands of kids who were mocked and bullied for not coming from “godly” enough families.

Why did a child molester go to a purity ball?

Duh.

Because the only purity that must be regulated is the purity of women and girl children. Men can be absolute sickos, and that okay, cause, you know, boys will be boys. And double standards is what complementarianism and patriarchy are all about. Different rules for different genders.
It has nothing to do with justice, truth, fairness or any other thing like that in the Bible. It is all about control of one gender over the other.

What better place than a purity ball is there for a child molester to find fresh meat to consume? Really. There is no better place than that.

@ Guest:
You are very brave.

Guest wrote:

The man who sexually abused me as a little girl believed the Bible promotes virgin little girl sex as the creme de la creme of sex. He did not believe the Bible condemned rape.
I belive child rape and misogyny go together like peanut butter and jelly, and salt and pepper.

How awful you had to endure that. I am so sorry our world has such evil in it.

A couple of things.

The idea that sex with a virgin will cure AIDS became popular in some countries such that there are now X amount of young children with HIV/AIDS who are both orphaned because the parents died of the disease and/or HIV positive themselves which they got either from Mom or from virgin rape or both. I got this information from the general media some years ago but also I ran across a missionary endeavor which helps feed these abandoned children in a church related situation in South Africa. Africa having a high percentage of male/female HIV virus transmission.

Then:

When I see these sicko dads parading their young daughters around advertised as virgins I can’t help think that they believe they will get a higher bride price for their young virgin daughters when they sell them to whomever Dad chooses-and perhaps in some horrendous cases for whatever purposes.

We need to get off this virginity kick. We have better methods of determining paternity than the traditional blood on the sheets. She can still have somebody else’s baby, but not without his knowledge if they check the DNA.

Sometimes humans act like a pack of wild animals. It is too early this morning for this-I need orange juice.

Every time someone starts to get obsessed with sex, such as worshipping ‘purity’ like these balls, the silver ring thing, or the Duggar family you know that horrors will lurk beneath the surface. Obsession is obsession & is always bad news, no matter which side of the issue it comes from. I would always be looking for those in that culture to whom this just seems to mean too much…

I also take issue with the general tone of all that purity culture stuff, that somehow women are ‘broken’ or ‘infected’ by sex before marriage & become less valuable & unclean through it. The guys who do the same things do not suffer the same designations. They are merely those who were tempted. It makes me feel sick really, & is just another part of the whole sex-as-a-commodity-with-virginity-fetching-a-high-price that I don’t recall seeing in the NT. All human beings are made in the image of God, & derive their value from that, right? Right?

Guest wrote:

We learn in Christianity that if a man and woman over eighteen have consensual sex outside of marriage they are evil. If two homosexuals over eighteen have consensual sex; they are evil.

But if a man rapes a woman or a child it is no big deal, people need to get over it, and stop talking about it.

This is a sad, sad commentary and far too often true. You are dead on here.

Consent is completely ignored when it is the most important thing!

Dangerous people vs imperfect people. There is a difference.

Guest wrote:

The man who sexually abused me as a little girl believed the Bible promotes virgin little girl sex as the creme de la creme of sex. He did not believe the Bible condemned rape.

What a double awfulness. I hope you are doing well. What can I say? Child abuse of any kind is unimaginably evil. I repeatedly reassure myself about the opinion of God about millstones as well as the opinion of God abut children, and the adults they grow to be.

Did your abuser say exactly what in scripture he thought condoned rape and child abuse?

@ Guest:
Mosaic Law said men like that were to be stoned to death.
I hope you are doing well, and know that what he did to you was his fault entirely.

My brother took his youngest daughter to a purity dance for several years, at his wife’s insistence. My sil was into it simply because of the social aspect – like a prom for the little girls. They didn’t go last year or this year. I think they woke up to what it’s all about.
Besides, my niece is a very good athlete. She plays on 2 fast pitch softball teams – no time. And softball is much healthier, physically and psychologically!

I would add adultery to this list as a minimized sin. “Sin is sin” mantra has definitely been used to shame faithful spouses trying to leave cheaters. People don’t get how devastating it is to be cheated upon as well as gas-lighted (among other things).

I really appreciate the thoughts in this article.

okrapod wrote:

We need to get off this virginity kick

Boom! I agree with this statement! This whole “purity” garbage is yet another form of patriarchal control. Someone mentioned earlier that you don’t see moms hovering over their nearly adult sons. Why? Because that would place a woman in a position of authority over a man.
This sort of strangeness is like bronze age morality meets “Father Knows Best”
No one should be surprised this belief breeds abuse.

@ Jack

Canada is a beautiful country and the people are such good people. Happy Canada day!

Jim Bob Duggar admitted sexual abuse is much worse in other families like his. Did Jim Bob ever call the police on any of those sexual abusers? I doubt it.

This group does not believe sexual abuse of children or child molestation should be against the law. They do not believe men or boys should go to jail for something that obviously the girl is to blame for too. In this ideology children always have to take blame for crimes committed against them.

@ Guest:

” O Canada….” our wonderful neighbors to the north. God bless the day.

You know, I can NEVER come up w/a self satisfying answer to those kinds of texts, honestly, it makes me cringe inside.
@ Guest:

Well, whoever thinks what about the 40s when I was growing up we certainly were not into any such trashy and unhealthy ideas like a young women does not need a boyfriend as long as she had daddy, incest thinking, which I what I think this is. I think this goes way past anatomy and creates an opportunity for incestuous sexual fantasy.

Listen Dad, go revive whatever you used to have with the kid’s Momma but don’t do this to the kids.

And also. There is some thinking that what happens sometimes is that Mom who wants Dad to leave her alone will make incest possible by denying Dad and looking the other way at what is going on. The thinking has been said to be ‘leave me alone but here is my daughter’.

So listen, Mom. Defend you daughter from this stuff. Go solve it with Dad but don’t do this to the kids.

@ Beakerj:

I copied the link for you in another comment.

On Dee's twitter, she had a link to Sammy Woodhouse, a "thriver" from the Rotherham plundering of children.

Guest wrote:

Sadistic patriarchy pervert Voddie Baucham:

“A lot of men are leaving their wives for younger women because they yearn for attention from younger women. And God gave them a daughter who can give them that. And instead they go find a substitute daughter….you’ve seen it, we’ve all seen it. These old guys going and finding these substitute daughters.”

Blame daughters for fathers affairs. What, are daughters supposed to flirt with their fathers to make them feel better about their old selves?

https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2014/12/01/6-things-you-should-know-about-voddie-baucham/

apparently this man is held in high regard in CBMW circles. Perhaps he has explained away his strange outlook in a way that is palatable to that crowd, but it is so creepy to think about on its surface.

Just recalling the weirdness of Voddie Baucham, I remember this patriarchal family tragedy:
“Nashville’s Newschannel5 reported Wednesday night that Willis had allegedly been charged with raping a family member. It said the family member had been “removed by Willis from her bed and raped.” It also reported that “authorities confirmed Willis was not allowed to go around his biological children or his wife.””
http://www.thedailybeast.com/the-willis-clan-no-more-a-christian-family-band-comes-apart-amid-child-rape-allegations

Guest wrote:

Sadistic patriarchy pervert Voddie Baucham:

Guest, full marks to you, but you forgot to add false preacher of a false gospel to Baucham.

This article hit very close to home; I threw up in my mouth (and on the porch). Have these people no shame? No.

@ Jack:
O Canada!
Happy Canada Day, Jack

my father’s birthplace: this beautiful town of Saint-Armand in Quebec
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mc7RQw1Gto

@ Muslin, fka Dee Holmes:
yes, it takes time ….. I’m glad the surgery is over for him, but he will need patience for the rehab experience, yes …. it’s not fun, but it works 🙂

@ Muslin, fka Dee Holmes:
You are a wonderful sibling! My best to your brother.

Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:

Christian kids who are ruthless bullies

Just a guess: their parents had the $$$ that was running the church. Entitlement.

Guest wrote:

Sadistic patriarchy pervert Voddie Baucham:

“A lot of men are leaving their wives for younger women because they yearn for attention from younger women. And God gave them a daughter who can give them that. And instead they go find a substitute daughter….you’ve seen it, we’ve all seen it. These old guys going and finding these substitute daughters.”

How long before Baucham gets embroiled in a Cosbyesque scandal? My guess is when enough young women overcome their fear of hell and come forward.

@ Muff Potter:
AKA “god’s” pet kids.

Patti wrote:

Are there any dads here who have gone to these things? If so, what did you think and were you pressured by your wife and church.

When my daughter was in high school we attended one, not really knowing what it was until we got there. I recall it being advertised as a father-daughter dance. One of her friends asked her to go – there was no pressure from my wife or church. Once we got there we both thought it was weird (especially the purity vow which we did not repeat), but we enjoyed trying to dance without stepping on each others’ feet. We never went to another one.

A few years earlier, my daughter and I dressed up so I could take her to dinner to celebrate a major life milestone. People looked at me like I was some kind of perv as we were walking to the restaurant. It was weird. The waitress did too, until I told her that I was celebrating something for my daughter. Then she became very friendly. I think it’s good for parents to have interaction like this with their kids, but the purity ball is way too weird.

@ Guest:
At the noteworthy link is information about

“…a male supremacist home school conference that called for dismantling child protection systems.”

and

“…the concern that ‘the female sin of the internet’ (framed as equal to “the male sin of pornography”) was blogging…”

Oh dear, ladies, what are we doing here…?

JYJames wrote:

“…the concern that ‘the female sin of the internet’ (framed as equal to “the male sin of pornography”) was blogging…”

Wow! This is taking Sin-leveling to a new level by equating obvious sin with non-sin. When a man blogs, is that also porn? That would indict quite a few New Calvinists. Or maybe it means that if it is not sinful for men to blog, then it is not sinful for women to view porn.

okrapod wrote:

ideas like a young women does not need a boyfriend as long as she had daddy, incest thinking, which I what I think this is.

I believe this is why, out of the five convicted pedophiles at my former cult, two of them were fathers who molested their daughters. At least one molested his sister. It has something to do with an almost incestual fixation on the “harem.” When Jim Bob Duggar said they’d talked to other families where incest happened, he wasn’t lying. I believe we’ve only seen the tip of the iceberg in these Patriarchal circles.

okrapod wrote:

We have better methods of determining paternity than the traditional blood on the sheets

Were you a nurse, okrapod? Or maybe I remember wrong. A few years ago one bride presented a certificate to her father that her doctor confirmed that her hymen was intact. It created quite a buzz. It was at this time I stumbled across a comment section discussing that hymens can be naturally eroded away in some women. Conversely, some need surgical intervention in order to allow a woman to menstuate. I was horrified at the thought of a woman in Biblical times who left no blood on the sheets but was still a virgin. There were certainly some gaps in my education on this topic, and I wonder how many others don’t know. And what are the ramifications for women in the “purity movement” today.

Dee wrote:

@ molly245:
Would you ever be willing to share your story with us? Of course I understand if you would not. I just want you to know that we feel for you and I prayed for you all today.

If you think it would be helpful I would be willing. I’m not wanting to share specific church names as my daughters need their privacy….but otherwise, it’d be fine.

“You told them you have a boyfriend. It’s your dad.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CCSeOwiHnI&feature=youtu.be

@ BeenThereDoneThat:
Somebody told that girl if you ‘date in high school its just setting you up for a divorce’.

I feel like these kids need to be rescued and allowed to live a normal life. I suspect several of them will be very angry about this one day.

I was raised with this purity stuff being the norm and then hearing about church leaders sleeping with students in the youth group and guys with hardcore porn addictions. So it begs the question if the church didn’t approach sexuality like it’s the 1800s maybe people would learn about sex in a healthier environment where being smart, having healthy sexual relationships and protecting yourself are more emphasized than abstinence. It took a long time for me to shake off that repression and have normal, healthy relationships.

Also those purity ball pictures are creepy AF.

I was raised with this purity stuff being the norm and then hearing about church leaders sleeping with students in the youth group and guys with hardcore porn addictions. So it begs the question if the church didn’t approach sexuality like it’s the 1800s maybe people would learn about sex in a healthier environment where being smart, having healthy sexual relationships and protecting yourself are more emphasized than abstinence. It took a long time for me to shake off that repression and have normal, healthy relationships.

Also those purity ball pictures are really creepy.

This sounds like a very ineffective way to protect your daughter. When my daughter reaches dating age I plan to wear fake neck tattoos and wear a fake ankle monitor when I meet my daughter’s date.

Perhaps Christian parents should just “train up a child in the way he should go” and “bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.” Set the example, pray with and for them, study Scripture together, and don’t get weird about it. It worked for us, but I don’t have any creepy pictures to prove it.

@ Muff Potter:
Muff, I long ago concludes that Christians are just as screwed-up sexually as everyone else, just in a different (and usually opposite) direction.

BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

“You told them you have a boyfriend. It’s your dad.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CCSeOwiHnI&feature=youtu.be

I see your YouTube and raise you one Game of Thrones:
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Craster

Guest wrote:

Sadistic patriarchy pervert Voddie Baucham:

“A lot of men are leaving their wives for younger women because they yearn for attention from younger women. And God gave them a daughter who can give them that. And instead they go find a substitute daughter….you’ve seen it, we’ve all seen it. These old guys going and finding these substitute daughters.”

Again, I see your quote from “Beat the Shy out of Fluttershy” and raise you one Game of Thrones:
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Craster

okrapod wrote:

The idea that sex with a virgin will cure AIDS became popular in some countries such that there are now X amount of young children with HIV/AIDS

In Victorian England, it was sex with a young virgin would cure Syphilis. The younger the better. And the Pimps and Procurers of Victorian London obliged for all the Respectable Gentlemen of Birth and Breeding.

okrapod wrote:

don’t expect the church to take the place of the family in this; the church cannot do your job for you

Wisdom!

okrapod wrote:

There is just way too much trusting some church’s latest weird idea about a whole lot of things.

And getting weirder all the time, Okrapod. Sadly, you can’t just blindly trust church leaders these days. TWW reminds of that every day.

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
anthropologists have found the remains of some of the young victims of this nightmare:
http://www.planetslade.com/cross-bones-14.html

some excerpts:
“State of Health: Syphilis
The scars and pit-marks Black and Mallett could see all over the skeleton were textbook signs of advanced syphilis. The lack of telltale grooves in the skeleton’s teeth ruled out the possibility that CW1211’s mother had passed on syphilis while her child was still in the womb and this was confirmed by the fact that her skull had formed correctly in childhood. It follows that the disease must have been transmitted sexually. (120)
‘The pattern of healing suggests she was living with syphilis for a long time,’ Tucker said

Syphilis: Age when Infected.
The tertiary (third stage) syphilis shown in the skeleton develops anywhere from three years to 15 years after the first infection, though Mallett assumed a maximum ten-year term in CW1211’s case. Combine that with the age data above and we see that she could have been infected as young as five. One possibility is that she fell victim to a particularly vile Victorian superstition insisting that a man could cure himself of syphilis by screwing a virgin. In the underclass of Victorian London, that often meant a child. (121)”

What hurts to read is ‘she could have been infected as young as five’, the forensic evidence backs this up.

What is going on when humans think the sacrificing of innocence heals?
As though somehow this is a warped and twisted view of a way out of a curse?
Honestly, I cannot imagine the suffering of the ‘cross bones’ girl during her young life and her horrible death, but I realize that at the root of it is something of evil to which mankind has remained vulnerable. Victorian times began with great greed on the part of the wealthy and gradually awareness came that there was a moral imperative to relieve the suffering of those less fortunate. The poor teenager who was afflicted with syphilis and malformed by starvation apparently missed the relief boat.

How would we treat a young disabled person today? We are about to find out who we truly are as Christian people in this country.

Lea wrote:

Like the quick swing to josh Harris no dating deal.

Harris eventually thought that was a bad idea himself!

“”It’s like, well, crap, is the biggest thing I’ve done in my life this really huge mistake?” (Joshua Harris, Christian Post, August 26, 2016)

“Abstinence Author, Pastor Joshua Harris, Apologizes for Telling Christians Not to Date in ‘I Kissed Dating Goodbye'” http://www.christianpost.com/news/abstinence-author-pastor-joshua-harris-apologizes-for-telling-christians-not-to-date-in-i-kissed-dating-goodbye-168650/

Solomon, the wisest man who ever lived, advises us: “Be warned: the writing of many books is endless [so do not believe everything you read], and excessive study and devotion to books is wearying to the body.” (Ecclesiastes 12:12) The American church would do well to listen to Solomon – the Christian book merchandising machine is cranking new books out by the gobs – most are written by New Calvinists who ain’t in touch with God about what they write. Solomon could have added: “Beware of inexperienced pastors in their 20s-30s who tell you how to live!”

@ Smoking Salmon:
Smoking, are you related to Accipiter?

scott hendrixson wrote:

This sounds like a very ineffective way to protect your daughter. When my daughter reaches dating age I plan to wear fake neck tattoos and wear a fake ankle monitor when I meet my daughter’s date.

For my daughter’s first date, I answered the door with an 8-inch blade clenched between my teeth. I did. I really, really did.

__

“Taken In Divine Context, Perhaps?”

hmmm…

“The Bible places sex and sexual activity within the larger context of holiness and faithfulness. In this regard, the Bible presents an honest and often detailed explanation of God’s design for sex and its place in human life and happiness.” -Albert Mohler

(please consult your bible for details…)

“Even YOU can be STD free.”
https://www.cdc.gov/std/default.htm

ATB

Sopy

🙂

—

In the [uber-creepy] video, there was a quick shot of a “Purity Covering and Covenant” document. So, idiot that I am, I looked it up. Here is the text.

“I, (DAUGHTER’S NAME)’S FATHER, CHOOSE BEFORE GOD TO COVER MY DAUGHTER AS HER AUTHORITY AND PROTECTION IN THE AREA OF PURITY. I WILL BE PURE IN MY OWN LIFE AS A MAN, HUSBAND AND FATHER. I WILL BE A MAN OF INTEGRITY AND ACCOUNTABLITY AS I LEAD, GUIDE AND PRAY OVER MY DAUGHTER AND MY FAMILY AS THE HIGH PRIEST IN MY HOME. THIS COVERING WILL BE USED BY GOD TO INFLUENCE GENERATIONS TO COME.”

“https://generationsoflight.com/html/thepledge.html

It’s this weird mix of truth and crazy. Purity is a good thing. So are integrity and accountability, and praying for your kids.

But the elements of authority and covering can easily mean control and manipulation. And the whole High Priest over the home thing… What religion does that come from? I’ve never seen that in the New Testament, anyway. Seems to contradict that whole “priesthood of the believer” that Luther thought was so important. Is it Masonic?

@ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):
LOL …. I need this today.

Muff Potter wrote:

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever! So take that you unsaved liberal humanist!!!

I believe that Jesus edict for those that messed with kids had something to do with millstones and such.

These clowns go back a bit farther to when Lot was offering his daughters to the folks of Sodom or Gommorah – I suppose in this world of Google I could look it up but you get the point.

But seriously, if I was a true believer and messing with kids knowing what’s supposedly waiting for me in eternity then how deep is my faith.

Not all sins are equal, I doubt the fires of heck await those who take 11 items into the 10 items or less checkout line. If they are then there’s no hope for me.

Oh yeah….I’m an unsaved liberal humanist….

Mae wrote:

Ugh, to JACK (not guest)….Happy Canada Day!

Thanks! There’s still spots in my eyes from the fireworks last night.

@ Jack:
Hi JACK,
my Memere and Pepere moved to Massachusetts when my Pop was five years old, so until he started Catholic school, he spoke no English…. the nuns at Jeanne d’Arc school taught half day in English and half in French, so Pop learned English …..

My Pepere was once a lumberjack as a teenager in Canada, but was a house-builder in Massachusetts ….. a great tall man with a wooden leg from an accident, so very dignified …. good, good people 🙂 the best

Jack wrote:

Oh yeah….I’m an unsaved liberal humanist….

So am I Jack, so am I…
One who also subscribes to the tenets of The Apostle’s Creed.

@ Jack:
My husband’s grandparents were from central Saskatchewan (paternal) and Nova Scotia (maternal). I guess Canada was just too cold for them. They moved down south to central Maine when their children were very young.

Jack wrote:

We always need to keep in mind that the bible was written in a time when people just didn’t live that long. In the Roman Empire a boy was a man at 14, a girl married in her teens, if either of them hit 30 they were doing pretty good. Life was short, hard and brutal for the majority. Our concept of childhood didn’t exist.

Christians and Atheists alike need to keep this in mind. If not, they both succumb to irrational statements and beliefs about Christianity. I see both groups say the most ridiculous things based on what they believe the Bible says.

My comment is general, not directed specifically to you, Jack 🙂

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
P.S. and since a child has more unlived life ahead of them, that’s more life-force to suck out. (Taking that Magickal thinking to its logical conclusion, an unborn fetus would have even more unlived life; that’s the first thing I thought about embryonic stem cells as Alzheimer’s cure…)

Many F&SF writers have done the corundrum of “what if you could achieve Immortality, but it would require the killing of other humans on a regular basis to make the Immortality elixir?”

@ Lea:
Whoops messed up the quote. My bit starts with ‘boys become men by growing up’.

Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

I did not like my daughter’s first boyfriend. Couldn’t put my finger on it …… just one of those feelings, ya know? My feeling was right. The guy is currently serving a 25 year prison sentence.

Many mothers are gifted with an uncanny type of prescience.
And yet how many times have we all been blasted with the old saw:
…”You can’t walk by feelings”…

@ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):
a mother’s instinct ….. the BEST kind of discernment 🙂

Lea wrote:

GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:

The Manhood Ceremony.”

So, here is something that quoted:

Boys become men by watching men, by standing close to men. Manhood is a ritual passed from generation to generation

Boys become men by growing up.

They also say they invite the boys to ‘watch’ the father daughter stuff. That’s even grosser somehow!

Honestly, in their focusing on ‘purity’, they don’t get it that they are REALLY focusing on all those activities that violate it as well …. but in the middle of their obsession, they are making the girl an ‘object’ whose worth is dependent on something other than her personhood. The message is terrible. They are not celebrating who she is as a person, but how she is honored by only one thing.

What if, God forbid, she is then seen in that family as ‘damaged goods’? It is so cult-like, it’s frightening.

If a father wants to impress his daughter with his protective manhood, let her see him treating her mother with all respect, and working hard to provide for all in the ways he is able to do. Let the daughter see him take the family to Church. Let the daughter see him help out when there is need. Let the daughter see him give of himself to his family selflessly. Then she will know what an honorable father is, and she will have a role model of good Christian character to honor with her own behavior in return.

The ‘purity’ balls send the wrong messages. Yes.

Muff Potter wrote:

No they’re (sins) not all equal, if they were, we’d execute people for jay-walking too. I wonder how that silly doctrine (all sins are the same) got started?

My best (somewhat educated) guess is the 11th century “Moral Satisfaction” theory proposed by Anselm. Until him, it seems the seriousness of sins was looked at based on things like intent and impact. Instead, Anselm suggested that the seriousness of a sin is dependent upon the honor of the one sinned against. Since God is an infinite being, any sin against him (and all sins are ultimately against him) is infinitely offensive to his honor and requires infinite redress. But the main point for this question is that it meant even the slightest of sins is an infinite offense that requires infinite punishment. If all sins earn the same eternal conscious torment, then there really is not much difference among sins. Does that make sense?

@ Ken F (aka Tweed):

As I understand it that is the theory. The other side of that coin is the explanation as to how the death of one man (Jesus) could atone for the sins of many, and the explanation would be because of the infinite worth of the Son whose sacrifice was therefore infinite and would atone for infinite offense, that being the sins of humanity.

I did not express that well, with all those ‘infinite’s but I think this is what they are saying.

okrapod wrote:

As I understand it that is the theory. The other side of that coin is the explanation as to how the death of one man (Jesus) could atone for the sins of many, and the explanation would be because of the infinite worth of the Son whose sacrifice was therefore infinite and would atone for infinite offense, that being the sins of humanity.

The interesting thing about this theory is that the Bible is silent on its main points. It says nothing about infinite sins, infinitely offended honor, or an infinite sacrifice. It also makes no sense that a finite being can create in infinite effect of any kind. If the smallest sin results in an infinite offense, then wouldn’t the smallest act of kindness result in an infinite honor? No one ever preaches this flip side of the coin. I’m not saying the moral satisfaction is wrong (thought I doubt it is true), but that its basis is logic rather than Bible. It could be true, but one cannot prove it to be true using the Bible.

Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

It could be true, but one cannot prove it to be true using the Bible.

Some day we will have to talk about scripture and what the scripture itself leads us to believe about its usefulness. Today is not the day because I have a lot going on, part of which is that my computer has to go to my tech expert for some help. Computer is not my BFF.

Bridget wrote:

Christians and Atheists alike need to keep this in mind. If not, they both succumb to irrational statements and beliefs about Christianity. I see both groups say the most ridiculous things based on what they believe the Bible says.

That’s the problem with the “literal” bible. We ignore the history behind it. I have issues with bible being a road map to living – insofar as dictating our society’s values and morals.

There’s a lot there we don’t condone any more – slaughtering our enemies to the last man, woman, child, farm animal. We don’t condone slavery, handing daughters over to men to be used, execution for moral crimes.

What these men (and let’s be honest, it’s mostly male driven) want is to take us back to those times by saying this is God would want it.

If God does exist and the Bible is a chronicle of his interactions with humans, then unless God actually picked up pen and wrote it down himself then it’s writings are going to reflect the mores and norms of the writer. That’s where free will comes into play.

The same with the New Testament – Paul’s letters sound pretty conservative, almost going back from the four gospels in the canon in some ways – he seems a little more hung up on things like homosexuality, sexuality in general and gender rolls, which (if the gospels are accurate), Jesus doesn’t give a passing mention. This does not pit Paul against Jesus but it does reflect his training as a man of the law. (note: Paul also recognized this in not forcing things like celibacy on his followers ie: I do it for my own reasons but I’m not making is requisite to being “Christian”)

But rather than see the bible in the context of history – as a history – the men like the ones in this post see it as a “how to live” manual. Women and children are property, which leads to dehumanization, which leads to all sorts of nastiness.

Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

If the smallest sin results in an infinite offense, then wouldn’t the smallest act of kindness result in an infinite honor? No one ever preaches this flip side of the coin.

What it leaves one with is that sin is MORE sinful than an act of kindness is kind.

Mix that with the last 40 years of teaching that “even a Christian’s good works are as filthy rags to God” and your not left with much hope that you can do anything that is pleasing to God. And I’m not talking about gaining salvation by pious acts, apart from also believing in Christ here. You are left with a hopeless Christianity.

Bridget wrote:

Mix that with the last 40 years of teaching that “even a Christian’s good works are as filthy rags to God” and your not left with much hope that you can do anything that is pleasing to God.

well, such people have access to the Holy Gospel of St. Luke and the story of how the Publican went away from the synogogue in God’s friendship

somehow, the ‘filthy rags’ people need to connect the Holy Gospels of their bibles up with the ‘biblical gospel’ that may have taught them that they are without hope

maybe the pastor was right who told me that the ‘biblical gospel’ was not the same as the four Gospels in the Bible;
but how can it be that any so-called ‘biblical gospel’ has the cred to contradict the teachings of Christ Himself?

@ Jack:
was there something about my comment that was ‘off’?

sorry if it caused you concern, yes
it is hard to know what to say and what not to say without someone being offended these days, it’s not just here …. maybe it’s the times and the tension we feel because of them … thanks for your thoughts, I hear you

@ Bridget:

Well put Bridget, and I concur.

Christiane wrote:

but I will still personally continue to remain in prayer today over the concerns expressed in Daisy’s comment

Never said you couldn’t but there’s an adage, if you pick at it, it’s never going to heal.

@ Jack:
I don’t understand ‘pick at it’. I’m not getting your point.
The only thing I can sort out is that by saying I was praying about someone’s concerns, you might feel that was an inappropriate comment. But that doesn’t make any sense to me.

What ARE you saying?
?

Bridget wrote:

You are left with a hopeless Christianity.

Isn’t that the “gospel” of the New Calvinists?

Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

nick

Off topic here, but the reason I describe PSA as “fine as far as it goes” is tucked away in this wee scrippie:

For in [Jesus] all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

It’s the phrase “reconcile to himself all things” that catches my eye here. So, God created a marvellous, complex universe in which wonderful things could, and would happen. But precisely because they could, terrible things could also happen. People who didn’t ask to be born would suffer from the consequences of others misusing the freedom God gave them; or simply from the consequences of an ordered universe in which gravity pulls and fire is hot. God did not do this casually, however, nor uncaringly, because he is love.

I can’t help thinking, therefore, that at the cross, God gathered up every consequence of his decisions at creation, and as the Alpha and Omega of it all, assumed personal responsibility for all of his creation. In some way, at the end of time, his promise that the first will be last and the last, first, will be fulfilled and the question of why God allowed temporal suffering answered in a way that will make those who set so much store by PSA cringe that they admired such a small and petty theory.

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

In some way, at the end of time, his promise that the first will be last and the last, first, will be fulfilled and the question of why God allowed temporal suffering answered in a way that will make those who set so much store by PSA cringe that they admired such a small and petty theory.

Beautifully said

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

Off topic here, but the reason I describe PSA as “fine as far as it goes” is tucked away in this wee scrippie:

I believe what you wrote about penal substitution rings true. There is an aspect where it is true, but when we start from a God that looks more like Zeus than Jesus we twist it into something grotesque. I like NT Wrights assessment (http://ntwrightpage.com/2017/01/30/the-royal-revolution-fresh-perspectives-on-the-cross/):

And so people hear what they think is the gospel, but instead of hearing ‘God so loved the world that he gave his only son’ they hear ‘God so hated the world that he killed his only son’. And the biblical truth of penal substitution is thereby both distorted and shrunk.
Distorted: because, yes, there is a biblical truth we can call penal substitution, but it is not well expressed within the platonized eschatology and the moralized anthropology.

In one view of PSA, all things are reconciled to God because Jesus, as the creator and sustainer of all things, changed us. In the other view of PSA, Jesus’ death on the cross changed God. PSA sounds like just a theological nuance. But in reality, what is at stake is the overarching view of both God and Man. Does God, at his core, love us or loathe us? That is a very important discussion.

Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

In the other view of PSA, Jesus’ death on the cross changed God.

And that flies in the face of their mantra that God does not change . . .

@ Jack:
Stated with eloquence.

JYJames wrote:

If something feels off, time to at the very least, question

Yes. I think we have to listen to our instincts instead of tamping them down in an effort to ‘nice’. Or in this case ‘christian’.

Innocent until proven guilty is a legal state. Not a moral one.

Let open our eyes a bit wider.

@ Ken F (aka Tweed):
Actually, that song came out before I was born!

dee wrote:

@ M. Joy:
Creepster pics

DITTO! Glad I’m not the only one who noticed the creep factor in those pics.

@ Muff Potter:
I am appalled by one picture especially as it is beyond inappropriate. It breaks so many barriers, familial and social. How is it that a father could come to this point and then celebrate it with a formal photograph. His uniform just compounds the sick aspect, plus the ‘grown up’ gown of the daughter who is still very young,
this:
http://portal.liberalamerica.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/purity-Balls-615×330.png

Christiane wrote:

take a look at Wade’s sermon on E-Church this past Sunday where he discusses the reason for the Publican praying,
“God, have mercy on me THE sinner”
(see Wade’s sermon at 15:30)

I could really sound off on this one but it would never get through customs and I’d be skating on even thinner ice than I already am…

Muff Potter wrote:

Now, now Christiane, we’re supposed to walk by ‘faith’ and not by sight…

We hug not kiss in my family, but in other cultures kissing family (sometimes on the lips) is not that odd? I know when I went to school a bunch of my nyer friends dad’s would kiss me on the cheek in a non nefarious way.

Now the rest of it is obviously a mess, but that particular picture actually looks more familial to me than some of the odd prom picture ones!

@ Muff Potter:
All I could think of was ‘where is this child’s MOTHER?’

Christiane wrote:

‘where is this child’s MOTHER?’

At home, telling her other 17 kids what a dreamy night this daughter is having with Daddy.

Here’s a recording from 1911 of “I Want a Girl Just Like the Girl that Married Dear Old Dad:”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yusM0sM8pEw

Christiane wrote:

All I could think of was ‘where is this child’s MOTHER?’

Where’s the kid’s mother? Being submissive and obedient if she knows what’s good for her.

@ Jack:
Jack, I thought you were from Canada!

@ Christiane:
I am, depending on where I’m logged in, the flag may or may not show up.

@ Jack:
ah, you have the best of both worlds if you come frequently to the states also

our family in St. Armand has many familial connections in the states

It’s been a while since I last was in Canada. I always thought my husband and I would go back to Montreal on our fiftieth anniversary, as we honeymooned there in that glorious ‘Paris of the North’. 🙂
But health problems may prevent that dream from happening. But what good memories we have. We were at the old Windsor Hotel, which now is no longer. Such great food, great pastries, great coffee. The entertainment in even the smallest clubs was terrific. And it looked as though someone had scrubbed clean the buildings and the streets.
Good memories. I’m so proud of my Canadian heritage.

Muff Potter wrote:

Christiane wrote:

All I could think of was ‘where is this child’s MOTHER?’

Where’s the kid’s mother? Being submissive and obedient if she knows what’s good for her.

“Stay Sweet, Stay Sweet…”

“What is Thy will, Milord Husband? How might I better Submit?”

refugee wrote:

GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:

And the whole High Priest over the home thing… What religion does that come from?

One of RC Sproul Jr’s teachings was that the husband/father was “prophet, priest, and king” of the home and family…

And the bottle turned out to be “prophet, priest, and king” of “Precious” Junior.

WillysJeepMan wrote:

The EIC’s view works to eliminate any physical contact between teen girls and boys while at the same time embracing same-gender contact. Guys hanging all over each other in a lounge watching a movie is viewed as wholesome bonding, but the same scene enacted with mixed company is sinful and to be avoided.

In the words of the prophet Josie Cotton:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=457N1m4oUZw

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Glad you’re back, Headless! 🙂

Jack wrote:

What these men (and let’s be honest, it’s mostly male driven) want is to take us back to those times by saying this is God would want it.

Exactly. And given half the chance, they’d take it by force too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OK1VTB-OvDw

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
good news ….. I’ve missed your outlook on things muchly