“I used to be Snow White, but I drifted.” ― Mae West link
Why I don't like the term *purity* when it is applied to abstinence before marriage.
I have never cared for the term "purity" when it is applied to those who do not have sex before marriage. Do not get me wrong. I believe the Bible promotes sex only within a marital relationship. That is what we taught our children as they grew up. We taught them all sorts of other things that also pertain to purity. We taught them to understand the Scripture and understand why following the faith is good. We discussed how live honestly and exhibit kindness and selflessness to others. Purity in relationships meant to treat others as they would wish to be treated and to never use others for selfish purposes.
As I watched my kids grow up, I would often see kids who did the purity ring thing but bullied other kids, acted snotty and arrogant, lied, cheated, etc. For me, purity was a big picture thing that should not be shrunken down to "don't have sex before marriage."
Here is one look at purity as it is defined in the New Testament.
The New Testament. In the New Testament, there is little emphasis on ritual purity. Rather, the focus is on moral purity or purification: chastity ( 2 Cor 11:2 ; Titus 2:5 ); innocence in one's attitude toward members of the church ( 2 Cor 7:11 ); and moral purity or uprightness ( Php 4:8 ; 1 Tim 5:22 ; 1 Peter 3:2 ; 1 John 1:3 ). Purity is associated with understanding, patience and kindness ( 2 Cor 6:6 ); speech, life, love, and faith ( 1 Tim 4:12 ); and reverence ( 1 Peter 3:2 ).
I know of one teen who slipped up in the abstinence area. She got terribly punished by her parents and her church. She was made to confess her sin in front of her school. In the meantime, sitting in the very audience of those who were listening, were some of the meanest bullies one can imagine.Yes, they were *Christian* kids. These kids were constantly getting in trouble for being mean to others but they never had to confess their sin to the school. They got a pass. The funny thing was the girl who messed up in the abstinence department was one of the sweetest, kindest teens, always helping others. So the bullies were pure and she wasn't?
Why was she *not pure* and why did the bullies get a pass? Why did the mean kids get to go to the prom and she didn't?
Slates goes to a purity ball
I was intrigued by this tweet from Stephanie Drury.
Slate posted Striking Portraits of Fathers and the Daughters Whose Virginity They’ve Pledged to Protect. The photographer decided to go to one such event and try to explain it by a series of pictures.
He began interviewing the people he photographed and said that also helped shape his ideas of the decisions the young girls had made along with their fathers.
“When you start listening to what separate individuals who are part of a group have to say, it suddenly becomes about people and not just about a group mentality. There are huge diversities within the group and reasons for why they choose these ceremonies.”
He learned that many of the young women were independent thinkers and their fathers were simply trying to protect their loved ones the best way they knew how. Magnusson sent portraits to everyone who participated in the project and said they were all very happy with the results.
Bruce Gerencser wrote Jodi Heckert Pledged to Protect His Daughter’s Virginity, Now in Prison For Child Molestation. Here is what he had to say.
As a photographer, I found Magnusson’s work to be stunning (and creepily disturbing), but I do wonder, based on several of his quotes in the article, if Magnusson really understands the American purity culture. For those of us who were once a part of the patriarchy movement, David Magnusson’s photographs are reminders of the many girls who are smothered by their God-fearing, hymen-worshiping “protective” fathers.
One of the dads featured in the Magnusson's work is now in prison for molesting one of his daughters.
Think about what is going on that young girl's home. Her dad is *protecting* her virginity while molesting her sister! I bet that there are plenty of Christians in Yuma who thought this guy was the perfect dad, given his penchant for sexual *purity* when it comes to his daughter. Instead, he is a monster and that young woman is going to need all the help she can get to figure out this Christian thing.
Christians and cognitive dissonance.
I was a naive convert to the faith. I did not know many Christians and learned much about the Bible and faith through reading. I made some dumb assumptions early on. I assumed that Christians followed the Bible would intrinsically behave in a Christian manner. It seems I overlooked the whole "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" deal especially in myself. I have been hurt many times along my faith journey by assuming that a person who goes to the right church and believes the right thing would also rightly live.
Somehow, I was also able to overlook my own sin and shortcomings. There was a great deal of cognitive dissonance when it came to me. However, as time went on I began to understand a great deal more about man's capacity to sin and to justify that sin. I learned that pedophiles, molesters, sociopaths and narcissists can use the church to carry out their own sick agenda. They get the culture, they know the lingo and they know naive Christians. Even if they molest, they realize that many Christians will blow it off as a mistake.
Years ago, I would have assumed that any dad who took their daughter to a purity ball was a God-fearing, Christian man. I no longer make that assumption and am hoping to convince everyone else to not make such assumptions as well. I also think we need to take a good, hard look at what we mean by purity as well.
How sin leveling contributes to cognitive dissonance and the inability of Christians to understand evil in our midst.
Recently The Gospel Coalition posted The Hypocrisy of Phariseephobia written by a college student who is struggling with his homosexuality. Here is what some clueless Christian said to him.
“People may say that sin is sin, but homosexuality—that’s different. Homosexuality is worse than all the others.”
He was deeply hurt as he should have been. However, he started getting down on himself because he judged this person!
This person seemed to have compassion on everyone she met—that is, everyone who wasn’t gay. This made me angry, but it gradually dawned on me: Because she thought of me as the worst person, I’d begun thinking of her as the worst person.
I was being a hypocrite.
He went on to say that he was judging the *judgy.*
This perspective is essentially a form of self-righteousness: “You’re not straight; therefore I am better than you are, and you are to be avoided.” In fact, this kind of attitude sounds much like a group of people Jesus often encountered: the Pharisees.
The Pharisees could have been labeled “sinner-phobic.” Blind to their own depravity,
It now appears that he believes that we are all the same when it comes to judging sin.
The Bible isn’t about “good guys” versus “bad guys.” There is only one good guy, and his name is Jesus Christ, the one who offered grace to both the sexually broken and the bigoted. So let’s drop our labeling and condemning, our anger and hypocrisy, and turn to Christ’s overwhelming grace. Let’s say with the guests at Simon’s house, “Who is this, who even forgives sins?”
In my opinion, the person going around spouting off about homosexuality being the worst sin is, in fact, misrepresenting the gospel and that should bother The Gospel™ Coalition.
This is what contributes to churches and organizations who believe that child molesters, pedophiles, spouses abusers, etc. are no different than the guy who cusses in the car when he is cut off at a intersection. Yes, all of these have sinned but what are the ramifications of those sins? Who has caused the most damage in this world?
The guy who cussed quietly in the car most likely has only hurt himself or those he is riding with. An apology and trying to control one's outbursts is usually a solution. The man who has molested a child has probably molested many others. Such abuse can lead to serious ramifications for the child who has been harmed. The pain can last a lifetime and can lead to all sort of difficult issues.
We speak strongly against allowing child sex abusers to have roles as leaders in churches. Norm Vigue at Steven Furtick's Elevation Church is one of those. He served time in prison as a violent sex offender. He is now Furtick's hero and leads all sorts of ministries. The Sins of Our Fathers: Elevation Church Needs to Know That Repentant Pedophiles Are Not Heroes.
We have heard from clueless Christians at Elevation Church who claim that they are no different than Norm Vigue. Sadly, they do not understand that they are different unless they are going around and raping children and ruining their lives. (I have taken to asking them if they have turned themselves into the police yet.)Yes, we all sin but some sin is much worse than other sins.
As Christians, we must carefully think about the lingo we are flinging around these days. Let's discuss and debate a few questions.
- What do we mean by purity?
- Are all sins the same?
- Does God view all sins the same? (Hint: look at the OT)
First?
Sick!! This is so twisted…how can reason be so disregarded in people who claim to ‘have God’s discernment” or God’s anointing”?
God preserve precious children from this…
We have 4 daughters….we made the same naive assumptions as you did….2 of them were molested at church events..
Now I don’t trust anyone, Christian or not, Pastor or not…..Just makes me ill to think of it…
Whoa. Those father/daughter pictures on the Slate article are disturbing. Talk about your high “ick” factor.
@ M. Joy:
YAY!!!
molly245 wrote:
Oh no! Molly I am so sorry!!! My heart goes out to you. Have you ever told your story?
@ M. Joy:
Creepster pics
I sure hope my daughter doesn’t ask me to take her to one of these things when she gets older. The idea of me being some sort of guardian of her virginity just kind of creeps me out.
Especially since there don’t seem to be any mother-son purity dances…. tells you whose purity is important and whose purity isn’t so important…
srs wrote:
when I was growing up every so many years ago, the mother spoke with the daughter about such personal things and the father spoke with the son ….. this eliminated a lot of embarrassment all around and seemed appropriate at the time ….. I don’t know the ‘new thinking’ on this, but looking back, if my father mentioned anything pertaining to ‘virginity’ to me, I would have been mortified ….. I guess it’s a generational thing, but those pictures give me the creeps
my father was dignified proper man, quite reserved ….. I think all this ‘purity’ stuff would have been shocking to him and embarrassing
I just keep thinking ‘how embarrassing for those poor girls’
1. This story gives me the heebie Jeebies as does the whole purity ball thing, and
2. I am so glad this wasn’t a thing when I was a kid although I can’t see my dad going along with it in any universe.
@ molly245:
I am so sorry.
There are predators everywhere. I don’t care for allowing young men to be caregivers in the church nursery. Never allowed teenage boys to babysit my kids. That offended some folks. Molestation a horrible act.
Agree that some churches over emphasize some sins over others. They constantly harp on, sex, drugs and rock and roll. Meanwhile, some busy body church lady gets a pass, or the strident, rude deacon is not spoken to about his behavior.
Why any church would promote a *former* pedophile, seems very foolish, if not borderline criminal. It’s bad enough to realize some are in our midst unknown, without having to be leary of self confessed offenders, now leading the youth groups.
Mae wrote:
I agree.
Do you think that these ‘churches’ might do this in order to get people to come in who are curious about the prurient ‘past’ of the pedophile? Look how many pastors bring on stage people who have terrible pasts but have ‘seen the light’ …. this seems to be quite a draw audience-wise.
Of course, we know that pedophiles never ‘recover’ and must avoid temptation (they will tell you this).
Yes. Stupid for sure, but if these lead pastor KNOW what they are doing is wrong, then oh-my-goodness, they have already made shipwreck of their faith ….. and for what? money?
?
There is a difference between a person who is imperfect and a person who is dangerous.
“Cognitive Dissonance: A Child Molester Goes to a Purity Ball”
This blog title reminded me of a recent newspaper headline: “Bill Cosby Plans To Lecture Teens About Avoiding Sexual-Assault Accusations”
https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/people/2017/06/22/bill-cosby-plans-lecture-teens-avoiding-sexual-assault-accusations/103111714/
Talk about conflicting attitudes, beliefs and behaviors!
@ Lea:
So glad it wasn’t in vogue in my youth either.
Probably would have given my father the creeps too.
Christiane wrote:
Truly, I have no clue why any church would do this.
I’m just guessing when I say maybe it’s because they think it makes them look very inclusive or perhaps they think sexual perversion can be healed. Maybe a combination of both perspectives.
Max wrote:
Can you imagine promoting yourself as an expert on such things, when 60+ women say otherwise? He’d probably be scanning the room for possible encounters.
Ugh–as I noted elsewhere, the subject of this post is a guest of the Arizona Department of Corrections (ADOC).
My brother is at home after surgery. He was pretty woozy even when they let us go and didn’t remember a few things the nurse had told us. But he seems to have come through it OK. The surgeon told me he removed a few bone spurs and junk that was messing up my brother’s shoulder. Let’s hope this helps alleviate the pain. Thanks everyone for keeping my brother in mind!
Well, Dee, I guess they really don’t want to call them “Sexual Purity Balls,” which is what the are. But I’m thinking that title wouldn’t go over well in such groups 😉
srs wrote:
Exactly!!
Yes I to was naive to think leaders in a church and members would do the right thing and love as a Christian like they preach. My heart aches today as my child is experiencing more judgement although the people are well intentioned he is being judged and the kids in his environment are not treating him right. He certainly is acting out but I don’t believe he’s the person that he is being labeled as he’s hurting.
But to TGC, is running a watchblog the sin that’s different from the other sins?
The people who make a show of that they’re so forgiving they forgive pedophiles have no trouble throwing out horrible fake Christian accusations to people who they don’t know and haven’t done anything. It’s just pretending away the real problems in the fundagelical world while doing what’s easy, like attacking decent teenagers for not living up to ridiculous standards of “purity”.
Christiane wrote:
Your parents showed what’s now called “good boundaries.” I think the purity movement erodes boundaries by telling youngsters, especially girls, that they belong to authority figures, and aren’t allowed to think for themselves or even feel discomfort.
@ Mae:
“America’s Dad” forfeited that title. He just needs to go away.
Friend wrote:
I finally looked at those pictures and they must have been told to make those weird expressions right? They all did! But all the girls looked deeply uncomfortable to me, even the little ones who can’t really have understood this well I think.
But yes, boundaries are there for a reason!
Where prey congregates, the predators will swarm.
Christiane wrote:
It’s called “Pornography for the Pious”.
How else can all the Respectable Church Ladies get their JUICY JUICY JUICY fix of all that Forbidden SEXUAL Sin and still stay Pious and Respectable?
M. Joy wrote:
Craster’s Keep Country?
molly245 wrote:
Righteousness(TM)…
“WE THANK THEE, LOOOOOOOOORD, THAT WE ARE NOTHING LIKE…”
But it’s the OTHER guy’s Sin, not ours, and THAT’s what’s Truly Important.
The American church, in its current condition, is too easy for perverts to hide in plain sight. American Christians, in their current condition, aren’t scaring the devil much when he comes to church.
We learn in Christianity that if a man and woman over eighteen have consensual sex outside of marriage they are evil. If two homosexuals over eighteen have consensual sex; they are evil.
But if a man rapes a woman or a child it is no big deal, people need to get over it, and stop talking about it.
Guest wrote:
Guest, you get the kewpie doll. You rang the carnival-pole-bell with one mallet atrike. Christianity really needs to step back and rethink human sexuality. Right now it’s at the opposite extreme from those who practice total promiscuity with no boundaries.
@ Muff Potter:
Should be mallet strike not ‘mallet atrike’.
@ Guest:
And yeah, to expand further, if two unmarried grown adults get caught in these churches doin’ the horizontal bop, their hash is settled, their goose is cooked so to speak. And yet when their horn-dogs molest kids or force themselves on the unwilling, they’ll bend over backwards to ‘restore’ them. My comment is not tangential at all, the cognitive dissonance is staggering.
Bullying.
In SGM circles, leaders were elevated and honored to a ridiculous degree. Also, CJ used mockery to shame people into agreeing with his teaching as a form of humor. In any circle, certain groups are valued. It did not take leader’s children very long to realize their group was the valued group and it empowered them to bully those who were lesser. This was especially prevalent when the teaching centered around mocking those who were not godly enough. Many people plead for years for the pastors to stop mocking from the pulpit because of the bullying and abuse being exhibited by their children upon members of the congregation.
Probably the greatest trauma coming out of SGM would be the hundreds or even thousands of kids who were mocked and bullied for not coming from “godly” enough families.
Excellent post.
And here is a great quote that I’ve never seen anyone say:
[regarding] “…man’s capacity to sin and to justify that sin. I learned that pedophiles, molesters, sociopaths and narcissists can use the church to carry out their own sick agenda. They get the culture, they know the lingo and they know naive Christians. Even if they molest, they realize that many Christians will blow it off as a mistake.’
Then this post goes on to specifically discuss “Sin Leveling” – a very important topic that again, I’ve never heard discussed, in those terms.
This is good, important work. I also noted the tweet about the Rotherham situation in the UK.
In light of that disaster, if a leadership does not openly address rampant exploitation of marginalized children by an entitled group, it escalates exponentially, incredibly.
Why did a child molester go to a purity ball?
Duh.
Because the only purity that must be regulated is the purity of women and girl children. Men can be absolute sickos, and that okay, cause, you know, boys will be boys. And double standards is what complementarianism and patriarchy are all about. Different rules for different genders.
It has nothing to do with justice, truth, fairness or any other thing like that in the Bible. It is all about control of one gender over the other.
What better place than a purity ball is there for a child molester to find fresh meat to consume? Really. There is no better place than that.
The man who sexually abused me as a little girl believed the Bible promotes virgin little girl sex as the creme de la creme of sex. He did not believe the Bible condemned rape.
I belive child rape and misogyny go together like peanut butter and jelly, and salt and pepper.
@ Guest:
You are very brave.
Guest wrote:
Unless that man is a famous, well-known pastor. Then he just needs a few weeks of “counseling” and is completely restored to his high-paying ministry. And anyone who questions it is the one in sin.
Guest wrote:
How awful you had to endure that. I am so sorry our world has such evil in it.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:
Hope he heals well and is as free from pain as is possible. Will he have some follow-up rehab after he heals?
A couple of things.
The idea that sex with a virgin will cure AIDS became popular in some countries such that there are now X amount of young children with HIV/AIDS who are both orphaned because the parents died of the disease and/or HIV positive themselves which they got either from Mom or from virgin rape or both. I got this information from the general media some years ago but also I ran across a missionary endeavor which helps feed these abandoned children in a church related situation in South Africa. Africa having a high percentage of male/female HIV virus transmission.
Then:
When I see these sicko dads parading their young daughters around advertised as virgins I can’t help think that they believe they will get a higher bride price for their young virgin daughters when they sell them to whomever Dad chooses-and perhaps in some horrendous cases for whatever purposes.
We need to get off this virginity kick. We have better methods of determining paternity than the traditional blood on the sheets. She can still have somebody else’s baby, but not without his knowledge if they check the DNA.
Sometimes humans act like a pack of wild animals. It is too early this morning for this-I need orange juice.
okrapod wrote:
A friend’s daughter worked over in S. Africa with one of the projects that helps these very young now HIV positive children. Such an horrendous situation.
Every time someone starts to get obsessed with sex, such as worshipping ‘purity’ like these balls, the silver ring thing, or the Duggar family you know that horrors will lurk beneath the surface. Obsession is obsession & is always bad news, no matter which side of the issue it comes from. I would always be looking for those in that culture to whom this just seems to mean too much…
I also take issue with the general tone of all that purity culture stuff, that somehow women are ‘broken’ or ‘infected’ by sex before marriage & become less valuable & unclean through it. The guys who do the same things do not suffer the same designations. They are merely those who were tempted. It makes me feel sick really, & is just another part of the whole sex-as-a-commodity-with-virginity-fetching-a-high-price that I don’t recall seeing in the NT. All human beings are made in the image of God, & derive their value from that, right? Right?
@ Guest:
Am so sorry this happened to you.
Guest wrote:
This is a sad, sad commentary and far too often true. You are dead on here.
Consent is completely ignored when it is the most important thing!
Dangerous people vs imperfect people. There is a difference.
okrapod wrote:
It’s a virginity program for girls, not the young men. That says a lot about who is to be “pure” and who is not.
Really I find all this virginity emphasis embarrassing, cultish. Who can prove such things anyway. Not like teenagers, from ages past and years to come, haven’t found ways to be intimate with another, without their parents having a clue.
As for patriarchal groups holding this out for a bride price, I wouldn’t doubt it. All to the benefit of the males of course.
Guest wrote:
What a double awfulness. I hope you are doing well. What can I say? Child abuse of any kind is unimaginably evil. I repeatedly reassure myself about the opinion of God about millstones as well as the opinion of God abut children, and the adults they grow to be.
Did your abuser say exactly what in scripture he thought condoned rape and child abuse?
Shauna wrote:
So sorry to hear of this, Shauna. Nothing is more painful than seeing your child suffering.
@ Guest:
Mosaic Law said men like that were to be stoned to death.
I hope you are doing well, and know that what he did to you was his fault entirely.
JYJames wrote:
Had to Google that as I had not heard of it. Horrendous! Those poor children not being protected is awful.
My brother took his youngest daughter to a purity dance for several years, at his wife’s insistence. My sil was into it simply because of the social aspect – like a prom for the little girls. They didn’t go last year or this year. I think they woke up to what it’s all about.
Besides, my niece is a very good athlete. She plays on 2 fast pitch softball teams – no time. And softball is much healthier, physically and psychologically!
Guest wrote:
That man is vile! No doubt about it. I have seen your comments on blogs before and it is never easy to hear what happened to you.
I would add adultery to this list as a minimized sin. “Sin is sin” mantra has definitely been used to shame faithful spouses trying to leave cheaters. People don’t get how devastating it is to be cheated upon as well as gas-lighted (among other things).
“Did your abuser say exactly what in scripture he thought condoned rape”
They found King David a virgin girl to make him feel better. Kill all the women and boys, but keep the virgin girls for yourself.
I really appreciate the thoughts in this article.
“I have seen your comments on blogs before”
When I talk about my childhood, I am not wanting people to think about me. I want them to think about little girls who are trapped in that toxic ideology.
How crushing it is to know all that matters is for you to be a virgin and you are not. As a thirteen-year-old, I felt condemned by God and hated by Christian men because I was not a virgin. What if one of these little girls gets raped? Girls are already taught to hate themselves enough in Christianity when they are virgins.
okrapod wrote:
Boom! I agree with this statement! This whole “purity” garbage is yet another form of patriarchal control. Someone mentioned earlier that you don’t see moms hovering over their nearly adult sons. Why? Because that would place a woman in a position of authority over a man.
This sort of strangeness is like bronze age morality meets “Father Knows Best”
No one should be surprised this belief breeds abuse.
BTW l really like the galaxy pic for this post. Happy Canada day everyone!
@ Jack
Canada is a beautiful country and the people are such good people. Happy Canada day!
Guest wrote:
I agree with you here.
Jim Bob Duggar admitted sexual abuse is much worse in other families like his. Did Jim Bob ever call the police on any of those sexual abusers? I doubt it.
This group does not believe sexual abuse of children or child molestation should be against the law. They do not believe men or boys should go to jail for something that obviously the girl is to blame for too. In this ideology children always have to take blame for crimes committed against them.
I am so glad you are tackling this super tacky at best practice in evangelicalism. I mean, purity balls!!! What a joke! It has bothered me for years. Here is something I would like to know: Are there any dads here who have gone to these things? If so, what did you think and were you pressured by your wife and church. I ask because I have thought that if I was a pressured dad, I would worry that my resistance would be misconstrued as not caring about my daughter’s dating relationships. On the other hand, I have wondered where the balls were on the dads who just couldn’t say no to the pressure.
Jack wrote:
I love our neighbors to the north and their beautiful country!!! Buchart Gardens is incredible! I will always remember my stay here as well. https://www.pinterest.com/pin/62135669828889327/
Guest wrote:
I am so, so sorry for what you have had to endure.
@ Guest:
” O Canada….” our wonderful neighbors to the north. God bless the day.
Ugh, to JACK (not guest)….Happy Canada Day!
You know, I can NEVER come up w/a self satisfying answer to those kinds of texts, honestly, it makes me cringe inside.
@ Guest:
JYJames wrote:
I missed this tweet – where is it? This is part of my professional field in another part of the UK.
Well, whoever thinks what about the 40s when I was growing up we certainly were not into any such trashy and unhealthy ideas like a young women does not need a boyfriend as long as she had daddy, incest thinking, which I what I think this is. I think this goes way past anatomy and creates an opportunity for incestuous sexual fantasy.
Listen Dad, go revive whatever you used to have with the kid’s Momma but don’t do this to the kids.
Jack wrote:
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever! So take that you unsaved liberal humanist!!!
And also. There is some thinking that what happens sometimes is that Mom who wants Dad to leave her alone will make incest possible by denying Dad and looking the other way at what is going on. The thinking has been said to be ‘leave me alone but here is my daughter’.
So listen, Mom. Defend you daughter from this stuff. Go solve it with Dad but don’t do this to the kids.
@ Beakerj:
http://bit.ly/2t3a7Ka
Here is the link.
@ Beakerj:
I copied the link for you in another comment.
On Dee's twitter, she had a link to Sammy Woodhouse, a "thriver" from the Rotherham plundering of children.
Sadistic patriarchy pervert Voddie Baucham:
“A lot of men are leaving their wives for younger women because they yearn for attention from younger women. And God gave them a daughter who can give them that. And instead they go find a substitute daughter….you’ve seen it, we’ve all seen it. These old guys going and finding these substitute daughters.”
Blame daughters for fathers affairs. What, are daughters supposed to flirt with their fathers to make them feel better about their old selves?
https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2014/12/01/6-things-you-should-know-about-voddie-baucham/
Guest wrote:
apparently this man is held in high regard in CBMW circles. Perhaps he has explained away his strange outlook in a way that is palatable to that crowd, but it is so creepy to think about on its surface.
Just recalling the weirdness of Voddie Baucham, I remember this patriarchal family tragedy:
“Nashville’s Newschannel5 reported Wednesday night that Willis had allegedly been charged with raping a family member. It said the family member had been “removed by Willis from her bed and raped.” It also reported that “authorities confirmed Willis was not allowed to go around his biological children or his wife.””
http://www.thedailybeast.com/the-willis-clan-no-more-a-christian-family-band-comes-apart-amid-child-rape-allegations
dee wrote:
Thanks, Dee! Canada is not where I live now, but it’s still my country, and dear to my heart. And it’s 150 years old today!
Guest wrote:
Guest, full marks to you, but you forgot to add false preacher of a false gospel to Baucham.
This article hit very close to home; I threw up in my mouth (and on the porch). Have these people no shame? No.
@ Guest:
Looked up the link you note, and then followed a link on that article to Libby Anne of “Love, Joy, Feminism” on Patheos, July 25, 2013: A Twisted Father/Daughter Relationship. Eye-opening. Twisted – yes.
@ Jack:
O Canada!
Happy Canada Day, Jack
my father’s birthplace: this beautiful town of Saint-Armand in Quebec
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mc7RQw1Gto
Christiane wrote:
Yes, it will start in two weeks. He doesn’t expect the pain to fully go away until after he gets through rehab.
@ Muslin, fka Dee Holmes:
yes, it takes time ….. I’m glad the surgery is over for him, but he will need patience for the rehab experience, yes …. it’s not fun, but it works 🙂
Guest wrote:
What if all of a man’s offspring are male? What does VB suggest to do, then? Go buy daddy a Malibu Barbie doll?
@ Muslin, fka Dee Holmes:
You are a wonderful sibling! My best to your brother.
I have sons. When they were young, I watched them like the proverbial hawk. Especially before, during, and after church.
And don’t get me started on Christian kids who are ruthless bullies. Several of such kids made my 7th grade a living hell.
Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:
Just a guess: their parents had the $$$ that was running the church. Entitlement.
___
“Insurance Rider’s On ‘The American Christian Church Storm’, Perhaps?”
hmmm…
Parental Advisory?
huh?
Modern American Present Day Christianity 101: (a) American Christian clergy who do not report those who abuse children are statically on the rise. (b) American Christian clergy who abuse children are statically on the rise. (c) Adults who attend American Christian churches who abuse children are statically on the rise. (d) Cases of pre-marital sex in American Christian churches are statically on the rise. (e) Cases of same sex in American Christian churches are statically on the rise. (f) STD cases in American Christian churches are statically on the rise. (g) Abortions in American Christian churches statically on the rise.
What?
(h) Church attendance in American Christian churches is statically on a sharp decline.
SKreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetch!
Should kind church folk be wondering why?
(sadface)
‘Little church bo creeping me out’, has lost his sheeple?
could b.
Sopy
___
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y_z-adsJjmE
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sbEf5PIehes
🙁
—
Guest wrote:
How long before Baucham gets embroiled in a Cosbyesque scandal? My guess is when enough young women overcome their fear of hell and come forward.
Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:
And yet they’ll swear up and down that they ‘know the Lord’ and you don’t because you’re a Catholic.
@ Muff Potter:
AKA “god’s” pet kids.
@ JYJames:
Thanks,I’m keeping an eagle eye on this situation & its fallout.
Patti wrote:
When my daughter was in high school we attended one, not really knowing what it was until we got there. I recall it being advertised as a father-daughter dance. One of her friends asked her to go – there was no pressure from my wife or church. Once we got there we both thought it was weird (especially the purity vow which we did not repeat), but we enjoyed trying to dance without stepping on each others’ feet. We never went to another one.
A few years earlier, my daughter and I dressed up so I could take her to dinner to celebrate a major life milestone. People looked at me like I was some kind of perv as we were walking to the restaurant. It was weird. The waitress did too, until I told her that I was celebrating something for my daughter. Then she became very friendly. I think it’s good for parents to have interaction like this with their kids, but the purity ball is way too weird.
Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
I agree.
@ Guest:
At the noteworthy link is information about
“…a male supremacist home school conference that called for dismantling child protection systems.”
and
“…the concern that ‘the female sin of the internet’ (framed as equal to “the male sin of pornography”) was blogging…”
Oh dear, ladies, what are we doing here…?
dee wrote:
Dee: Not publicly. Our story has all the elements of so many stories told here. Two different churches 10 years apart….Pressure from Pastors to cover it up, more sympathy for the perpetrators than the victims. Pressure to not “expose the church to shame”….
Tragically, a very familiar story although equally painful still. We ‘lost’ one of our daughters to any kind of Christian faith. That is the worst part but we cannot blame her at all for her feelings. She always wanted to be a missionary….but no more.
JYJames wrote:
Wow! This is taking Sin-leveling to a new level by equating obvious sin with non-sin. When a man blogs, is that also porn? That would indict quite a few New Calvinists. Or maybe it means that if it is not sinful for men to blog, then it is not sinful for women to view porn.
okrapod wrote:
My husband was a great father to our daughter. He was her shooting coach, took her to all her horse shoe competitions, took her to his workplace etc. Just did normal everyday things with her.
This past February she took him for his 70th birthday to see the northern lights.
okrapod wrote:
I believe this is why, out of the five convicted pedophiles at my former cult, two of them were fathers who molested their daughters. At least one molested his sister. It has something to do with an almost incestual fixation on the “harem.” When Jim Bob Duggar said they’d talked to other families where incest happened, he wasn’t lying. I believe we’ve only seen the tip of the iceberg in these Patriarchal circles.
@ molly245:
Would you ever be willing to share your story with us? Of course I understand if you would not. I just want you to know that we feel for you and I prayed for you all today.
okrapod wrote:
Were you a nurse, okrapod? Or maybe I remember wrong. A few years ago one bride presented a certificate to her father that her doctor confirmed that her hymen was intact. It created quite a buzz. It was at this time I stumbled across a comment section discussing that hymens can be naturally eroded away in some women. Conversely, some need surgical intervention in order to allow a woman to menstuate. I was horrified at the thought of a woman in Biblical times who left no blood on the sheets but was still a virgin. There were certainly some gaps in my education on this topic, and I wonder how many others don’t know. And what are the ramifications for women in the “purity movement” today.
Lea wrote:
I am bothered by the father’s choice to wear his Marine dress blues for this uncomfortable photo (and to nitpick, he should be wearing his hat outdoors). Equating military service with Christianity and his commitment to his daughter’s virginity is over the top… but he must have come across as quite the Christian Super Dad.
Dee wrote:
If you think it would be helpful I would be willing. I’m not wanting to share specific church names as my daughters need their privacy….but otherwise, it’d be fine.
molly245 wrote:
I’d of course tell you the real names but wouldn’t want them to go public.
“You told them you have a boyfriend. It’s your dad.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CCSeOwiHnI&feature=youtu.be
“Randy Wilson is the Nation Director at the Family Research Council.” The same Family Research Council that Josh Duggar worked for. Let that sink in for a moment. “He and his wife, Lisa, created the Purity Ball from their home ten years ago.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zofpxsiA_R0
Just reading some of the horrific experiences of commenters on this thread, I think it’s pretty obvious that the church cares more about its image of “purity” than the actual lives of real human beings. That’s just heartbreaking. 🙁 Sometimes I struggle with the fact that we don’t go to church. Then I read these comments, and I think my children are safer out of church.
@ BeenThereDoneThat:
Somebody told that girl if you ‘date in high school its just setting you up for a divorce’.
I feel like these kids need to be rescued and allowed to live a normal life. I suspect several of them will be very angry about this one day.
Lea wrote:
I think you’re right. I mean, I think some parents choose this because they don’t want their kids to have the same negative experiences they might have had? But it’s still a social experiment that has already had some negative outcomes itself.
I never dated my husband before we were engaged, though we liked each other. I was so focused on getting to know him in the few months before our wedding that I didn’t realize what absolute a-holes his parents are until after we were married. I still have to live with that. Choose your in-laws wisely.
But Dee made some very good points in the post. What is really the most important things to teach our kids? Even in the SBC I evperienced a social caste system among people young and old. It was the same way in the cult. Is “purity” more important than loving people?
I was raised with this purity stuff being the norm and then hearing about church leaders sleeping with students in the youth group and guys with hardcore porn addictions. So it begs the question if the church didn’t approach sexuality like it’s the 1800s maybe people would learn about sex in a healthier environment where being smart, having healthy sexual relationships and protecting yourself are more emphasized than abstinence. It took a long time for me to shake off that repression and have normal, healthy relationships.
Also those purity ball pictures are creepy AF.
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
Are these the people who do not allow dancing?
What are they doing promoting a father-daughter ball? Isn’t a ball a dance?
Do they let their children go to the senior prom? If the daughter can’t do social dancing with her peers, what in the world is she doing with her dad that only her dad is allowed to do with her?
I was raised with this purity stuff being the norm and then hearing about church leaders sleeping with students in the youth group and guys with hardcore porn addictions. So it begs the question if the church didn’t approach sexuality like it’s the 1800s maybe people would learn about sex in a healthier environment where being smart, having healthy sexual relationships and protecting yourself are more emphasized than abstinence. It took a long time for me to shake off that repression and have normal, healthy relationships.
Also those purity ball pictures are really creepy.
JYJames wrote:
There are some variations in this movement. For instance, the Duggars do not allow any dancing. Many of these families homeschool and may not have any kind of prom. But one family interviewed by ABC news does attend school, and does attend dances “with platonic dates.”
This sounds like a very ineffective way to protect your daughter. When my daughter reaches dating age I plan to wear fake neck tattoos and wear a fake ankle monitor when I meet my daughter’s date.
scott hendrixson wrote:
Two different planets:
the family that educates and raises its daughters to be of strong character and capable of moral discernment.
the family that disrespects its daughters to the point of forbidding them any opportunity to be educated or to make important moral choices that will affect their whole lives.
One world is preparing their daughters to live as Christian people in the world and to contribute to others by their service.
The other world harbors fear and distrust to the point of refusing to acknowledge the very gifts that God has given their daughters and so are raising potential cult members who distrust even their own children to be productive Christian people.
Out of which world would we expect to find the most of ‘incest’ and unnatural relationships which do not honor healthy family boundaries to the point of the disrespect and shaming of girls and women?
Perhaps Christian parents should just “train up a child in the way he should go” and “bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.” Set the example, pray with and for them, study Scripture together, and don’t get weird about it. It worked for us, but I don’t have any creepy pictures to prove it.
Max wrote:
From the mouth of a life long Baptist.
I have heard the identical ideas ‘preached’ by our Episcopal priest who started out as a youth minister, and based his conclusions on followup evaluation of how the youth of ten years ago turned out. He also said don’t expect the church to take the place of the family in this; the church cannot do your job for you.
I am on board with that. There is just way too much trusting some church’s latest weird idea about a whole lot of things.
@ Muff Potter:
Muff, I long ago concludes that Christians are just as screwed-up sexually as everyone else, just in a different (and usually opposite) direction.
scott hendrixson wrote:
In a long-ago interview, Alice Cooper said he was going to meet his daughter’s date at the door in full “Welcome to My Nightmare” stage gear, bloody prop machete, row of prop severed heads, and all.
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
I see your YouTube and raise you one Game of Thrones:
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Craster
Friend wrote:
Or American Dad from the cartoon.
Guest wrote:
Again, I see your quote from “Beat the Shy out of Fluttershy” and raise you one Game of Thrones:
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Craster
Guest wrote:
Welcome to the world of Bronze Age Middle Eastern Tribal Warfare.
okrapod wrote:
In Victorian England, it was sex with a young virgin would cure Syphilis. The younger the better. And the Pimps and Procurers of Victorian London obliged for all the Respectable Gentlemen of Birth and Breeding.
ishy wrote:
RANK HATH ITS PRIVILEGES.
okrapod wrote:
Wisdom!
okrapod wrote:
And getting weirder all the time, Okrapod. Sadly, you can’t just blindly trust church leaders these days. TWW reminds of that every day.
okrapod wrote:
Like the quick swing to josh Harris no dating deal. By a bunch of people who definitely dated in high school.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
anthropologists have found the remains of some of the young victims of this nightmare:
http://www.planetslade.com/cross-bones-14.html
some excerpts:
“State of Health: Syphilis
The scars and pit-marks Black and Mallett could see all over the skeleton were textbook signs of advanced syphilis. The lack of telltale grooves in the skeleton’s teeth ruled out the possibility that CW1211’s mother had passed on syphilis while her child was still in the womb and this was confirmed by the fact that her skull had formed correctly in childhood. It follows that the disease must have been transmitted sexually. (120)
‘The pattern of healing suggests she was living with syphilis for a long time,’ Tucker said
Syphilis: Age when Infected.
The tertiary (third stage) syphilis shown in the skeleton develops anywhere from three years to 15 years after the first infection, though Mallett assumed a maximum ten-year term in CW1211’s case. Combine that with the age data above and we see that she could have been infected as young as five. One possibility is that she fell victim to a particularly vile Victorian superstition insisting that a man could cure himself of syphilis by screwing a virgin. In the underclass of Victorian London, that often meant a child. (121)”
What hurts to read is ‘she could have been infected as young as five’, the forensic evidence backs this up.
What is going on when humans think the sacrificing of innocence heals?
As though somehow this is a warped and twisted view of a way out of a curse?
Honestly, I cannot imagine the suffering of the ‘cross bones’ girl during her young life and her horrible death, but I realize that at the root of it is something of evil to which mankind has remained vulnerable. Victorian times began with great greed on the part of the wealthy and gradually awareness came that there was a moral imperative to relieve the suffering of those less fortunate. The poor teenager who was afflicted with syphilis and malformed by starvation apparently missed the relief boat.
How would we treat a young disabled person today? We are about to find out who we truly are as Christian people in this country.
@ okrapod:
Okrapod, as a physician, you might also be interested in this case:
http://www.planetslade.com/cross-bones-14.html
I am a fan of Drs. Sue Black and Xanthe Mallett, and this is one of the cases they worked on that broke my heart. What this child went through is unspeakable. When I think of God’s ‘justice’, I think that He may someday exercise ‘wrath’ against those who were merciless to this girl. Or maybe it will go something like C.S. Lewis’ idea, this:
” “Is everything sad going to come untrue?” says character Samwise.
My eschatology tends towards the hopeful, yes, knowing that we are all in need of mercy. So I hold on to ” “And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, ‘Behold, I am making all things new.’””
and that somehow grace will in the final act do right by that young girl who suffered from terrible abuse so long ago
Lea wrote:
Harris eventually thought that was a bad idea himself!
“”It’s like, well, crap, is the biggest thing I’ve done in my life this really huge mistake?” (Joshua Harris, Christian Post, August 26, 2016)
“Abstinence Author, Pastor Joshua Harris, Apologizes for Telling Christians Not to Date in ‘I Kissed Dating Goodbye'” http://www.christianpost.com/news/abstinence-author-pastor-joshua-harris-apologizes-for-telling-christians-not-to-date-in-i-kissed-dating-goodbye-168650/
Solomon, the wisest man who ever lived, advises us: “Be warned: the writing of many books is endless [so do not believe everything you read], and excessive study and devotion to books is wearying to the body.” (Ecclesiastes 12:12) The American church would do well to listen to Solomon – the Christian book merchandising machine is cranking new books out by the gobs – most are written by New Calvinists who ain’t in touch with God about what they write. Solomon could have added: “Beware of inexperienced pastors in their 20s-30s who tell you how to live!”
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I think we both had the same epiphany.
@ Smoking Salmon:
Smoking, are you related to Accipiter?
Smoking Salmon wrote:
I’m an optimist, I think that the church will come round’ to reason and common sense over time just as it did in granting women full political enfranchisement (the vote).
scott hendrixson wrote:
For my daughter’s first date, I answered the door with an 8-inch blade clenched between my teeth. I did. I really, really did.
Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:
AVAST MATEY! Didja’ scare the bee-jeezus outta’ the kid?
__
“Taken In Divine Context, Perhaps?”
hmmm…
“The Bible places sex and sexual activity within the larger context of holiness and faithfulness. In this regard, the Bible presents an honest and often detailed explanation of God’s design for sex and its place in human life and happiness.” -Albert Mohler
(please consult your bible for details…)
“Even YOU can be STD free.”
https://www.cdc.gov/std/default.htm
ATB
Sopy
🙂
—
Muff Potter wrote:
He brought Rachel home 15 minutes before curfew.
In the [uber-creepy] video, there was a quick shot of a “Purity Covering and Covenant” document. So, idiot that I am, I looked it up. Here is the text.
“I, (DAUGHTER’S NAME)’S FATHER, CHOOSE BEFORE GOD TO COVER MY DAUGHTER AS HER AUTHORITY AND PROTECTION IN THE AREA OF PURITY. I WILL BE PURE IN MY OWN LIFE AS A MAN, HUSBAND AND FATHER. I WILL BE A MAN OF INTEGRITY AND ACCOUNTABLITY AS I LEAD, GUIDE AND PRAY OVER MY DAUGHTER AND MY FAMILY AS THE HIGH PRIEST IN MY HOME. THIS COVERING WILL BE USED BY GOD TO INFLUENCE GENERATIONS TO COME.”
“https://generationsoflight.com/html/thepledge.html
It’s this weird mix of truth and crazy. Purity is a good thing. So are integrity and accountability, and praying for your kids.
But the elements of authority and covering can easily mean control and manipulation. And the whole High Priest over the home thing… What religion does that come from? I’ve never seen that in the New Testament, anyway. Seems to contradict that whole “priesthood of the believer” that Luther thought was so important. Is it Masonic?
Update: Looks like seeing the Father as the High Priest over the home might be a Mormon concept. Some of you will certainly know more about this than I do.
Also, for boys, these folks have created “The Manhood Ceremony.” Seems to involve a purity ring and a sword.
http://www.generationsoflight.com/html/boys.html
@ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):
LOL …. I need this today.
The title of this post says it like it is, and that is the problem.
Muff Potter wrote:
I believe that Jesus edict for those that messed with kids had something to do with millstones and such.
These clowns go back a bit farther to when Lot was offering his daughters to the folks of Sodom or Gommorah – I suppose in this world of Google I could look it up but you get the point.
But seriously, if I was a true believer and messing with kids knowing what’s supposedly waiting for me in eternity then how deep is my faith.
Not all sins are equal, I doubt the fires of heck await those who take 11 items into the 10 items or less checkout line. If they are then there’s no hope for me.
Oh yeah….I’m an unsaved liberal humanist….
Christiane wrote:
Thanks! I’m a couple of provinces to the west. We do have the largest concentration of French Canadians outside of Quebec though.
Mae wrote:
Thanks! There’s still spots in my eyes from the fireworks last night.
dee wrote:
Thanks! Buchart Gardens is really something to see and I’ve been to Lake Louise a few times – though never stayed at the hotel.
@ Jack:
Hi JACK,
my Memere and Pepere moved to Massachusetts when my Pop was five years old, so until he started Catholic school, he spoke no English…. the nuns at Jeanne d’Arc school taught half day in English and half in French, so Pop learned English …..
My Pepere was once a lumberjack as a teenager in Canada, but was a house-builder in Massachusetts ….. a great tall man with a wooden leg from an accident, so very dignified …. good, good people 🙂 the best
Guest wrote:
Thanks! And thank you for sharing some of your experiences. Children of both sexes are damaged when the theology places bronze age law over hope.
We always need to keep in mind that the bible was written in a time when people just didn’t live that long. In the Roman Empire a boy was a man at 14, a girl married in her teens, if either of them hit 30 they were doing pretty good. Life was short, hard and brutal for the majority. Our concept of childhood didn’t exist.
There’s a reason society moved past it. There were no “good old days”.
Jack wrote:
So am I Jack, so am I…
One who also subscribes to the tenets of The Apostle’s Creed.
Jack wrote:
No they’re (sins) not all equal, if they were, we’d execute people for jay-walking too. I wonder how that silly doctrine (all sins are the same) got started?
@ Jack:
My husband’s grandparents were from central Saskatchewan (paternal) and Nova Scotia (maternal). I guess Canada was just too cold for them. They moved down south to central Maine when their children were very young.
@ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):
I ran suitors off for years, until I finally settled on an SBC seminary graduate (non-Calvinist). I didn’t have to bear arms in front of them – I used “the look.” But, of course, my daughter had a choice in the matter – she has a free will, you know. They are now happily married, with the cutest/smartest grandson ever. My son-in-law is a bi-vocational pastor at an SBC church 10 miles from us and wrestling with un-spiritual deacons – the fate of most Southern Baptist preachers.
Jack wrote:
Christians and Atheists alike need to keep this in mind. If not, they both succumb to irrational statements and beliefs about Christianity. I see both groups say the most ridiculous things based on what they believe the Bible says.
My comment is general, not directed specifically to you, Jack 🙂
Christiane wrote:
The most logical explanation is Magickal (Crowley spelling deliberate):
Draining away the life force of a Lowborn Inferior to infuse it (and youth and health) into their Highborn Betters.
Birth and Breeding, you understand.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
P.S. and since a child has more unlived life ahead of them, that’s more life-force to suck out. (Taking that Magickal thinking to its logical conclusion, an unborn fetus would have even more unlived life; that’s the first thing I thought about embryonic stem cells as Alzheimer’s cure…)
Many F&SF writers have done the corundrum of “what if you could achieve Immortality, but it would require the killing of other humans on a regular basis to make the Immortality elixir?”
GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:
So, here is something that quoted:
@ Lea:
Whoops messed up the quote. My bit starts with ‘boys become men by growing up’.
Max wrote:
I did not like my daughter’s first boyfriend. Couldn’t put my finger on it …… just one of those feelings, ya know? My feeling was right. The guy is currently serving a 25 year prison sentence.
Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:
Many mothers are gifted with an uncanny type of prescience.
And yet how many times have we all been blasted with the old saw:
…”You can’t walk by feelings”…
From the @ dee:
post:
“…pedophiles, molesters, sociopaths and narcissists can use the church to carry out their own sick agenda. They get the culture, they know the lingo and they know naive Christians.”
Reminds me of a quote from a New Republic article found via a tweet by Dee retweeted from Boz Tchividjian (http://bit.ly/2tdQ64e):
“As one convicted child abuser tells clinical psychologist Anna Salter in her book Predators: Pedophiles, Rapists, and Other Sex Offenders, ‘Church people are easy to fool.’”
@ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):
a mother’s instinct ….. the BEST kind of discernment 🙂
@ Muff Potter:
My brother is a pediatrician and for over thirty years has said that it is very, very wise for a doctor not to overlook WHAT THE MOTHER IS SAYING.
Lea wrote:
Honestly, in their focusing on ‘purity’, they don’t get it that they are REALLY focusing on all those activities that violate it as well …. but in the middle of their obsession, they are making the girl an ‘object’ whose worth is dependent on something other than her personhood. The message is terrible. They are not celebrating who she is as a person, but how she is honored by only one thing.
What if, God forbid, she is then seen in that family as ‘damaged goods’? It is so cult-like, it’s frightening.
If a father wants to impress his daughter with his protective manhood, let her see him treating her mother with all respect, and working hard to provide for all in the ways he is able to do. Let the daughter see him take the family to Church. Let the daughter see him help out when there is need. Let the daughter see him give of himself to his family selflessly. Then she will know what an honorable father is, and she will have a role model of good Christian character to honor with her own behavior in return.
The ‘purity’ balls send the wrong messages. Yes.
I was very moved by this comment and will be in prayer over it today:
https://missdaisyflower.wordpress.com/2017/07/02/be-cautious-faux-niceness-victim-bullies-and-survivor-abuse-blogs/
Muff Potter wrote:
My best (somewhat educated) guess is the 11th century “Moral Satisfaction” theory proposed by Anselm. Until him, it seems the seriousness of sins was looked at based on things like intent and impact. Instead, Anselm suggested that the seriousness of a sin is dependent upon the honor of the one sinned against. Since God is an infinite being, any sin against him (and all sins are ultimately against him) is infinitely offensive to his honor and requires infinite redress. But the main point for this question is that it meant even the slightest of sins is an infinite offense that requires infinite punishment. If all sins earn the same eternal conscious torment, then there really is not much difference among sins. Does that make sense?
@ Ken F (aka Tweed):
Not a theologian here, however, the Bible seems to reference variance of degree in sins (better a millstone be put around the neck and thrown into the sea vs. overlooking an offense, etc.). It would be an interesting study – a worthy book, even, perhaps. Sin leveling probably has motive.
@ Ken F (aka Tweed):
As I understand it that is the theory. The other side of that coin is the explanation as to how the death of one man (Jesus) could atone for the sins of many, and the explanation would be because of the infinite worth of the Son whose sacrifice was therefore infinite and would atone for infinite offense, that being the sins of humanity.
I did not express that well, with all those ‘infinite’s but I think this is what they are saying.
@ Ken F (aka Tweed):
take a look at Wade’s sermon on E-Church this past Sunday where he discusses the reason for the Publican praying,
“God, have mercy on me THE sinner”
(see Wade’s sermon at 15:30)
there is a really good point Wade makes for the language the Publican uses and it makes tremendous sense when you think of his humility before God, yes.
As for the ‘weight’ of measuring which sins are ‘worse’ than other sins, I am reminded how often I have done something that I think ‘wasn’t THAT bad’, but it snowballed, people were hurt, and then I reaped the whirlwind, that I had not ‘intended'(?) Or did a part of me want that to happen? I cannot know how to parse a ‘sin’ for its harmful effects in this world OR to think that a simple act of kindness done privately has no lasting impact on the universe …. we cannot know.
There is thoughtful saying by the Anglican convert to Catholicism:
John Henry Newman, this
“This thought should keep us humble. We are sinners, but we do not know how great. He alone knows who died for our sins.
(John Henry Newman)
perhaps our thoughts of being better than ‘that other sinner’ are reflections of our pride that blinds us to our own destructiveness?
I think it may be.
Sin is like a seed that, once let loose as a destructive force in this world, we can no longer control the harm it does.
I heartily recommend Wade’s sermon. It is very thought-provoking.
okrapod wrote:
The interesting thing about this theory is that the Bible is silent on its main points. It says nothing about infinite sins, infinitely offended honor, or an infinite sacrifice. It also makes no sense that a finite being can create in infinite effect of any kind. If the smallest sin results in an infinite offense, then wouldn’t the smallest act of kindness result in an infinite honor? No one ever preaches this flip side of the coin. I’m not saying the moral satisfaction is wrong (thought I doubt it is true), but that its basis is logic rather than Bible. It could be true, but one cannot prove it to be true using the Bible.
Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
🙂
how little we know
Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
Some day we will have to talk about scripture and what the scripture itself leads us to believe about its usefulness. Today is not the day because I have a lot going on, part of which is that my computer has to go to my tech expert for some help. Computer is not my BFF.
At its root is a highly distorted and dysfunctional Evangelical Industrial Complex (EIC) view of teenage sexuality. It is a view that frowns upon teen “dating” yet encourages father-daughter “dates” and mother-son “dates”. That is disturbing on multiple levels.
The EIC’s view works to eliminate any physical contact between teen girls and boys while at the same time embracing same-gender contact. Guys hanging all over each other in a lounge watching a movie is viewed as wholesome bonding, but the same scene enacted with mixed company is sinful and to be avoided. For some reason they think that their children are only capable of engaging in heterosexual activity and would never be tempted by homosexuality. The question would be, “why?”
Bridget wrote:
That’s the problem with the “literal” bible. We ignore the history behind it. I have issues with bible being a road map to living – insofar as dictating our society’s values and morals.
There’s a lot there we don’t condone any more – slaughtering our enemies to the last man, woman, child, farm animal. We don’t condone slavery, handing daughters over to men to be used, execution for moral crimes.
What these men (and let’s be honest, it’s mostly male driven) want is to take us back to those times by saying this is God would want it.
If God does exist and the Bible is a chronicle of his interactions with humans, then unless God actually picked up pen and wrote it down himself then it’s writings are going to reflect the mores and norms of the writer. That’s where free will comes into play.
The same with the New Testament – Paul’s letters sound pretty conservative, almost going back from the four gospels in the canon in some ways – he seems a little more hung up on things like homosexuality, sexuality in general and gender rolls, which (if the gospels are accurate), Jesus doesn’t give a passing mention. This does not pit Paul against Jesus but it does reflect his training as a man of the law. (note: Paul also recognized this in not forcing things like celibacy on his followers ie: I do it for my own reasons but I’m not making is requisite to being “Christian”)
But rather than see the bible in the context of history – as a history – the men like the ones in this post see it as a “how to live” manual. Women and children are property, which leads to dehumanization, which leads to all sorts of nastiness.
@ BeenThereDoneThat:
I’m watching the daughters sitting on the sofa and for a moment I remembered that terrible film ‘The Virgin Suicides’ which if you ever see it will haunt you for its sadness.
There has to be a better way for Christian parents to behave than this.
Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
What it leaves one with is that sin is MORE sinful than an act of kindness is kind.
Mix that with the last 40 years of teaching that “even a Christian’s good works are as filthy rags to God” and your not left with much hope that you can do anything that is pleasing to God. And I’m not talking about gaining salvation by pious acts, apart from also believing in Christ here. You are left with a hopeless Christianity.
Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
The logic is iron-clad in the world of ethereals, whence it would make perfect sense to execute jay-walkers in this world too.
But the logic won’t hold in this world, which is why our rule of law is not based on ethereals but rather real-time cost vs. benefits.
Anselm and other medievals completely ignored the fact that even in the old Mosaic codes, the same penalty was not levied for all infractions.
Bridget wrote:
well, such people have access to the Holy Gospel of St. Luke and the story of how the Publican went away from the synogogue in God’s friendship
somehow, the ‘filthy rags’ people need to connect the Holy Gospels of their bibles up with the ‘biblical gospel’ that may have taught them that they are without hope
maybe the pastor was right who told me that the ‘biblical gospel’ was not the same as the four Gospels in the Bible;
but how can it be that any so-called ‘biblical gospel’ has the cred to contradict the teachings of Christ Himself?
Christiane wrote:
With respect, I think Okrapod said it best to the effect that folks gotta do what they gotta do. Empathy is when you feel for someone but not share the same emotions. Sympathy is when you take on those emotions.
A forum such as this is better served by empathy. The world is too big to save with one blog.
TWW does its best work telling the stories that need to be told and facilitating discussion on those stories.
I said it in an earlier comment, a comments section does not make a good support group.
I enjoy the interaction here, with limitations.
In the words of the immortal Stan Lee, “nuff said”. Time to move on.
@ Jack:
was there something about my comment that was ‘off’?
sorry if it caused you concern, yes
it is hard to know what to say and what not to say without someone being offended these days, it’s not just here …. maybe it’s the times and the tension we feel because of them … thanks for your thoughts, I hear you
@ Jack:
but I will still personally continue to remain in prayer today over the concerns expressed in Daisy’s comment, this:
https://missdaisyflower.wordpress.com/2017/07/02/be-cautious-faux-niceness-victim-bullies-and-survivor-abuse-blogs/
@ Bridget:
Well put Bridget, and I concur.
Christiane wrote:
Not for me to say. I’m a guest here. My opinions are my own. Daisy’s are hers and yours are yours.
Christiane wrote:
Never said you couldn’t but there’s an adage, if you pick at it, it’s never going to heal.
@ Jack:
I thought you objected to my comment?
That’s why I responded to you seeking to understand what you wrote. I sort of thought you didn’t want me to make that comment at all, but I cannot see any harm in what I wrote. Sorry if in anyway you are or were offended.
Yes, I stand by my comment but if, in making, it someone is offended I should like to understand the reasons why, of course. I hope that makes sense.
Have a great day.
@ Jack:
I don’t understand ‘pick at it’. I’m not getting your point.
The only thing I can sort out is that by saying I was praying about someone’s concerns, you might feel that was an inappropriate comment. But that doesn’t make any sense to me.
What ARE you saying?
?
okrapod wrote:
In terms of how many “evangelicals” are using it today, I find their arguments poorly thought out. Piper, for example, is one of the most outspoken advocates for sola scriptura. Yet at the same time, he starts his arguments for the atonement with the assumption of infinite offenses against an infinitely holy God. If he thinks that is such a great argument to make he should come out and admit that he does not really believe in sola scriptura. Or if he is going to stand on sola scriptura, he should deny all assumptions that don’t come directly from scriptura. I can accept arguments from people who want to use either assumptions not stated in the Bible or sola scriptura. But I don’t accept their arguements as sound when they pick and choose the parts that work best for them while denying the parts that don’t.
When an appropriate thread comes up, I’m interested in your thoughts on sola scriptura.
Bridget wrote:
Isn’t that the “gospel” of the New Calvinists?
Christiane wrote:
What I'm saying is…
I am going to enjoy the Monday afternoon conversation Bridget, Muff and Ken are having.
Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
Off topic here, but the reason I describe PSA as “fine as far as it goes” is tucked away in this wee scrippie:
It’s the phrase “reconcile to himself all things” that catches my eye here. So, God created a marvellous, complex universe in which wonderful things could, and would happen. But precisely because they could, terrible things could also happen. People who didn’t ask to be born would suffer from the consequences of others misusing the freedom God gave them; or simply from the consequences of an ordered universe in which gravity pulls and fire is hot. God did not do this casually, however, nor uncaringly, because he is love.
I can’t help thinking, therefore, that at the cross, God gathered up every consequence of his decisions at creation, and as the Alpha and Omega of it all, assumed personal responsibility for all of his creation. In some way, at the end of time, his promise that the first will be last and the last, first, will be fulfilled and the question of why God allowed temporal suffering answered in a way that will make those who set so much store by PSA cringe that they admired such a small and petty theory.
P.S. I’m not sure what happened to my quote from Ken F / Tweed there. I’m not that vain and egotistical.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Beautifully said
Jack wrote:
I'm supposed to be doing chores around this house, but this is much more entertaining.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
I believe what you wrote about penal substitution rings true. There is an aspect where it is true, but when we start from a God that looks more like Zeus than Jesus we twist it into something grotesque. I like NT Wrights assessment (http://ntwrightpage.com/2017/01/30/the-royal-revolution-fresh-perspectives-on-the-cross/):
In one view of PSA, all things are reconciled to God because Jesus, as the creator and sustainer of all things, changed us. In the other view of PSA, Jesus’ death on the cross changed God. PSA sounds like just a theological nuance. But in reality, what is at stake is the overarching view of both God and Man. Does God, at his core, love us or loathe us? That is a very important discussion.
Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
That’s what I thought when I left that realm 3 years ago.
Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
And that flies in the face of their mantra that God does not change . . .
@ WillysJeepMan:
Well said.
IMHO and IMOE (own experience), as folks of both genders work in groups in ministry and (key) focus on the ministry (not on themselves), they learn healthy collaboration without ending up with either attraction or rejection (of the other gender). One learns to interact with people. My husband and I did a lot of this type of teamwork when we were young folks, and we’ve encouraged this with our own kids growing up. It’s a great life skill to attain to. Lots of stuff gets done with integrity and safe boundaries and without scandals, hurt, and such.
However, when there are obvious age differences (thus, power and authority issues) or with certain gender situations, (add to that secrecy or lack of transparency of any kind) it’s time to take a second look, in case there’s a red flag, (older guy with a harem of secretaries or teachers or church helpers; a senior woman manager as a cougar with all young male employees; a “purity ball” of dads and their young princesses; the way some teachers interact with students; the way some coaches interact with athletes; some outreach programs with volunteers [power] who work with youth [needy]; etc.). If something feels off, time to at the very least, question.
@ Jack:
Stated with eloquence.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
You’re so vain…you probably think this thread is about you
JYJames wrote:
Yes. I think we have to listen to our instincts instead of tamping them down in an effort to ‘nice’. Or in this case ‘christian’.
Innocent until proven guilty is a legal state. Not a moral one.
Let open our eyes a bit wider.
Lea wrote:
I was a kid when that song came out. We date ourselves by knowing references like this. But at our age, it’s not like anyone else wants to date us…
@ Ken F (aka Tweed):
Actually, that song came out before I was born!
M. Joy wrote:
I just read the article today…been busy the past few days and away from TWW. I was scrolling through the comments wondering if anyone else had noticed how strange and disturbing those photographs are. Those poses are the kind a man makes with his girlfriend/fiance, not a father with his daughter.
dee wrote:
DITTO! Glad I’m not the only one who noticed the creep factor in those pics.
Darlene wrote:
You’re right. I never looked at the pics until now, and my gut-instinct told me the same thing:
There’s something wrong here…
@ Muff Potter:
I am appalled by one picture especially as it is beyond inappropriate. It breaks so many barriers, familial and social. How is it that a father could come to this point and then celebrate it with a formal photograph. His uniform just compounds the sick aspect, plus the ‘grown up’ gown of the daughter who is still very young,
this:
http://portal.liberalamerica.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/purity-Balls-615×330.png
@ Christiane:
Now, now Christiane, we’re supposed to walk by ‘faith’ and not by sight…
Christiane wrote:
I could really sound off on this one but it would never get through customs and I’d be skating on even thinner ice than I already am…
GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:
One of RC Sproul Jr’s teachings was that the husband/father was “prophet, priest, and king” of the home and family…
Muff Potter wrote:
We hug not kiss in my family, but in other cultures kissing family (sometimes on the lips) is not that odd? I know when I went to school a bunch of my nyer friends dad’s would kiss me on the cheek in a non nefarious way.
Now the rest of it is obviously a mess, but that particular picture actually looks more familial to me than some of the odd prom picture ones!
@ Lea:
For all my liberal-progressive-theological posturing and socialist pandering, in many ways I’m still as old-fashioned as an electro-mechanical telephone.
The pic Christiane linked to makes my creepo-meter chirp like a geiger-counter in the deadlands of Chernobyl.
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@ Muff Potter:
All I could think of was ‘where is this child’s MOTHER?’
Muff Potter wrote:
Totally, except that nature is recovering, undisturbed by a big human presence, around Chernobyl. Whereas the photo is the opposite of nature and the opposite of undisturbed. 🙁
Christiane wrote:
At home, telling her other 17 kids what a dreamy night this daughter is having with Daddy.
Here’s a recording from 1911 of “I Want a Girl Just Like the Girl that Married Dear Old Dad:”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yusM0sM8pEw
Christiane wrote:
He appears to be a US naval officer, a commander. (The military folks in my family would not use their mess dress uniforms to flaunt their faith.)
Christiane wrote:
Where’s the kid’s mother? Being submissive and obedient if she knows what’s good for her.
Muff Potter wrote:
Thinner ice? Someone giving you hassle? For what it’s worth, I’d hate to think we’re all walking on eggshells. Vive le difference!
@ Jack:
Jack, I thought you were from Canada!
@ Jack:
Nobody’s giving me any hassle Jack. I had intended to comment on Burleson’s sermon which Christiane referenced. I thought it prudent to just let it go because it would have strayed too far into the realm of the current health care debacle (and ultimately its unavoidable political baggage) down here in the states.
Political discourse is not allowed here at TWW.
@ Christiane:
I am, depending on where I’m logged in, the flag may or may not show up.
Muff Potter wrote:
Muff, I am not wise is what the boundaries are between the faith of Christ and a Christian reflection on the care of the helpless disabled who are also mentally disabled. I am not wise because my oldest child is in that category.
At what point do we draw the lines of what is ‘the faith of Christ’ and ‘political’ in coming to the aid of such helplessness ????
I suppose I should recuse myself from all such attempts at discussion, but since my son has no voice (does not talk),
These are strange days. I admire your restraint. I understand the need to keep politics off of this site. If there is someway to know that boundary, I need help finding it. The truth is that I know I am much too involved with advocacy for our physically and mentally disabled to be precise about exactly where that important boundary lies.
@ Jack:
ah, you have the best of both worlds if you come frequently to the states also
our family in St. Armand has many familial connections in the states
It’s been a while since I last was in Canada. I always thought my husband and I would go back to Montreal on our fiftieth anniversary, as we honeymooned there in that glorious ‘Paris of the North’. 🙂
But health problems may prevent that dream from happening. But what good memories we have. We were at the old Windsor Hotel, which now is no longer. Such great food, great pastries, great coffee. The entertainment in even the smallest clubs was terrific. And it looked as though someone had scrubbed clean the buildings and the streets.
Good memories. I’m so proud of my Canadian heritage.
Friend wrote:
So does Sea Org. (In which, Miscavage wears the rank stripes of Captain and Elron was referred to as “The Commodore”.)
Muff Potter wrote:
“Stay Sweet, Stay Sweet…”
“What is Thy will, Milord Husband? How might I better Submit?”
refugee wrote:
RC Sproul Jr as in “Precious”?
refugee wrote:
And the bottle turned out to be “prophet, priest, and king” of “Precious” Junior.
Darlene wrote:
Welcome to Craster’s Keep…
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Craster
WillysJeepMan wrote:
In the words of the prophet Josie Cotton:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=457N1m4oUZw
Jack wrote:
With themselves as God’s Shadows upon the Earth.
“A fanatic does what God would do if God only KNEW what was REALLY going on.”
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Glad you’re back, Headless! 🙂
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@ Christiane:
Aaaaargh, I hadn’t seen that one before. That is beyond creepy. i feel like these girls are pre-groomed by all this stuff & are then easy prey for anyone authoritarian who wants to exploit them.
Jack wrote:
Exactly. And given half the chance, they’d take it by force too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OK1VTB-OvDw
Christiane wrote:
Still a bit spotty until next week; I’m posting this from my writing partner’s church office.
Eagle came up from DC last night and we’re going to be running into each other through tomorrow.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
good news ….. I’ve missed your outlook on things muchly
JYJames wrote:
I never saw this in that verse until I read this post, but you are right!! It does say that…and, as I recall, isn’t that a saying of Our Lord Himself??
Thank you so much for that insight.