We're keeping an eye out for SGM Survivors. Hope it doesn't disappear from the blogosphere.
A few days ago I visited the SGM Survivors website and was surprised to see the following notice:
SGM Survivors began in 2007 and has been a very helpful website to those who have been hurt by Sovereign Grace Ministries (now Sovereign Grace Churches).
Before Dee and I launched our blog on March 19, 2009 (TWW has now been around for EIGHT YEARS!), we were faithful readers of SGM Survivors and SGM Refuge (which has since been taken down). We began visiting these websites in the fall of 2008 and were shocked by what we were reading. The testimonies of abuse were absolutely horrifying! We owe a debt of gratitude to these two survivor blogs for helping us discover the various kinds of abuse happening in churches.
We hope that there has just been some sort of glitch and that SGM Survivors will be up and running again soon. If not, we plan to create a permanent page on our website where the conversation about SGM SGC can continue.
For our readers who may be unfamiliar with Sovereign Grace Ministries Churches, there was an article in The Washingtonian Magazine last year which did an outstanding job of highlighting the serious problems that plagued this 'family of churches'. Tiffany Stanley, who wrote the article, provided a comprehensive look at a ministry that appears to have covered up child sex abuse for many years.
I thought it might be helpful to share a post that we published a little over a year ago spotlighting Stanley's article. (see below)
Please continue to keep those who have been hurt in your prayers. It takes YEARS and YEARS to heal from physical, emotional and/or spiritual abuse. Your words of encouragement will no doubt be a blessing.
Washingtonian Magazine Spotlights C.J. Mahaney, CLC, SGM link
"Do you think that cover-up of sex abuse would happen over and over again if women were involved in policy?"
Pam Palmer quoted in The Fall of a Megachurch, Washingtonian Magazine
It's hard to believe that it's been almost seven years since Dee and I went to hear C.J. Mahaney speak at a Sovereign Grace Church in our area. That was on January 25, 2009. For five months prior we had been researching Mahaney and Sovereign Grace Ministries on the internet. We were in absolute shock at the testimonies we were reading over at SGM Survivors (and SGM Refuge – which is no longer online). How in the world could such horrific abuse take place without a huge outcry from congregants in this 'family of churches'?
We hoped that seeing C.J. Mahaney in action and attending a Sovereign Grace church might shed some light on this conundrum. The day before, Mahaney, his son, and son-in-law were treated to a sporting event event in our area. This was not just any college basketball game – it was Duke (my alma mater) hosting Mahaney's favorite college team, the University of Maryland. While Duke has had its setbacks in recent days, Coach K's team slaughtered the Terrapins that day. Dee and I could not believe how C.J. spent 15 to 20 minutes of his sermon time regaling his audience about the game. He finally got around to delivering his message Cravings and Conflict (one of those canned sermons he preached from church to church), and we were very disappointed. We just couldn't understand the appeal. As an aside, the church never posted this sermon online. Instead, they substituted the same message delivered by Mahaney at another Sovereign Grace church. At least it wasn't just us who felt the sermon wasn't up to par.
When the 'meeting' concluded, we spent some time talking with parents of the youth in the church. Our children were teenagers at the time, and we were dismayed at how the youth meetings are conducted at the church (and probably throughout this 'family of churches'). The parents are collectively in charge of the youth meetings, and when they do one-on-one activities, the church kids meet with their own parents. It appeared to be extremely 'controlled". Not only that, a good number of the youth are homeschooled.
What shocked us the most was the church bookstore. It was the focal point as you entered the front door of the church. It should come as no surprise that the books being offered for sale were authored by those in the Neo-Cal camp. Crossway books are high and lifted up in the Sovereign Grace 'family of churches'. Funny thing, some churches have libraries filled with books that can be borrowed, but not Sovereign Grace churches (as far as we can tell).
As we have emphasized here at TWW, C.J. Mahaney has been embraced and endorsed by high-profile leaders in the Neo-Cal movement. Perhaps he bought his way into their hearts with his generous contributions. After all, money talks… Because these leaders have promoted Mahaney so extensively, conservative pastors just love him! For example, a few years ago Mahaney was the guest preacher at a Southern Baptist church in our area. The pastor of that church (who has since retired) is a council member of The Gospel Coalition. Not only that, Mahaney addressed my daughter's Campus Crusade for Christ (Cru) group while he was here. She was not impressed. Then a couple days ago I was listening to an Assemblies of God pastor featured on the Truth radio network, and I almost passed out when he recommended that members of his congregation read The Cross Centered Life by C.J. Mahaney, a book stocked in their church bookstore. Not only that, at least three Calvinista pastors in our area recommend Mahaney's books on their websites. And of course C.J. Mahaney will be one of the featured speakers at the upcoming Together for the Gospel (T4G) event. Will the hero worship ever end?
We contend it is in God's sovereignty that a lengthy article in the Washingtonian Magazine has just been published focusing on Mahaney, the church he pastored for 27 years (Covenant Life Church), and other churches in what used to be known as Sovereign Grace Ministries (now called Sovereign Grace Churches). The article, featured in the February issue, is entitled THE FALL OF A MEGACHURCH. Tiffany Stanley, who has a masters in divinity from Harvard, is a Washington-based contributor to the New Republic, National Journal, and the Daily Beast. She spent about ten months conducting interviews and researching the story. I have read it in its entirety, and I believe she has provided a comprehensive look at a ministry that appears to have covered up child sex abuse.
The article provides a look at some of those who have been hurt in Sovereign Grace Churches. It begins with a long-time member of Covenant Life Church, Pam Palmer, whom Dee and I have met on several occasions. Pam had been involved with CLC since the 1980s and decided to leave after 22 years. She shared with us that her three year old daughter was molested by a teenage CLC member who had been hired to babysit, according to police records. (page 165 of article). She recounted for us and for Tiffany Stanley that she will never forget her "three-year-old Renee cowering under a chair, frightened at the sight of her molester, during a reconciliation meeting that she says Pastor John Loftness convened."
It wasn't until C.J. Mahaney stepped down as SGM president in 2011 that Pam's life changed forever. Prior to that, she had occasionally read a blog called SGM Survivors, but it was only after Mahaney temporarily resigned his post that she began to read more testimonies by parents that their children had been sexually abused by others in the church. These parents revealed that they had been mistreated by their church leaders when they spoke up. According to the article: "Until that moment, Pam had no idea there were other families out there just like hers." (page 58)
The first person to speak out over at SGM Survivors was Noel, whom the Washingtonian Magazine article identifies as 'Kate'. Dee and I have also had the pleasure of meeting her. The article goes into quite a bit of detail about how Kate's three-year-old daughter was sexually abused. In a nutshell, the fifteen-year-old son of a couple at the Sovereign Grace Church in Fairfax was entrusted to babysit other children from the church while their parents met in someone's home. Apparently, this was a common occurrence among Sovereign Grace families. The toddler began having 'night terrors' and found the bathroom frightening. The article explains that the teenage boy's mother confided to Kate that her son was acting out so intensely that she was worried about him. The article states: (page 59)
Eventually, he did what the church had taught him: He confessed an awful transgression. According to Kate, he told his mother he had been "inappropriate" with Ann who was three when the abuse occurred…
The teenage boy's mother was so distressed that she contacted the church pastors to confess her son's sin. A meeting between the three-year-old's parents and the teenage boy's mother was arranged so the sin could be confessed. The article further states: (pages 59-60)
At the meeting, the parents recall, one of the pastors paraphrased the Bible, telling them, "You shouldn't bring a Christian to court." The church leaders, they say, wanted to mediate. Sovereign Grace Church of Fairfax denies discouraging the family from going to the authorities and says they recommended reporting the matter.
My first thought upon reading this was – did the Fairfax pastors report this crime to the authorities?
Something didn't feel right to Kate, and she consulted a doctor and social services, who found evidence of sexual abuse, which led to a police investigation. Court documents reveal that the teenage boy was charged with 'object penetration' and 'aggravated sexual battery'. In the end, the perpetrator pleaded guilty to one count of sexual battery for which he received probation and counseling.
The article goes on to explain how poorly the Fairfax pastors treated Kate and her husband and how this drug on for years. In the end, the family moved beyond the world of SGM at which time they finally began to thrive.
After describing the horrific experience of Kate's young daughter, Tiffany Stanley made this important point: (page 60)
It's all too common, these days, to see an organization caught up in a sex-abuse scandal. Whether it's the military, a school, or a church, there tend to be some parallels: a culture that's at least somewhat separate from the outside world, a self-policing elite, a rank-and-file conditioned to revere its leaders.
In the ministry Mahaney built, some of these features were readily apparent. SGM represented a society unto itself, one that functioned parallel to manstream culture and that distrusted that wider, secular world.
THE FALL OF A MEGACHURCH goes on to describe how some of Mahaney's subordinates began to express their dissatisfaction with his leadership. He appeared to turn a deaf ear to their contentions that he had serious character flaws, specifically: pride and stubbornness. All of this was kept quiet as Mahaney anointed his successor (Joshua Harris) and assumed the role of president of Sovereign Grace Ministries. Brent Detwiler, one of Mahaney's colleagues, was de-gifted in 2009 and two years later he sent 600 pages of documentation demonstrating Mahaney's character flaws to various pastors and leaders in SGM. The distribution of these e-mails and documents seemed to make little difference, and after some time had passed they were posted online for anyone to read. Just before "The Documents" were made public, Mahaney announced his leave of absence.
Stanley goes on to explain that the board of Sovereign Grace Ministries appointed an independent panel to determine whether Mahaney was 'fit for ministry'. It is important to point out that the individuals on this panel were not identified until they had rendered their decision affirming their buddy C.J. In our post Is C.J. Fit for Ministry?, we discussed these three panelists (once they had been identified) and their connection to Mahaney and SGM. The independent panel was a complete JOKE! And let's not forget the travesty done by the Ambassadors of Reconciliation.
The Washingtonian Magazine article discussed a couple other abuse stories including one that we featured here at TWW – The Gospel Coalition: C.J. Mahaney is Adored While Pain Continues in Sovereign Grace Ministries. This post includes the story of Wallace and Happymom, whose children were also abused in yet another Sovereign Grace church.
Stanley then discusses the class action suit filed by Susan Burke in Montgomery County, Nate Morales – his crime and conviction, and the recent changes in SGM from their move to Kentucky to their financial setback to the withdrawal of more than 30 churches from SGM to the departure of Joshua Harris from CLC. We have covered most of these developments here at TWW.
Kudos to Tiffany Stanley for traveling to Kentucky in an attempt to meet with Mahaney and his lieutenants. She explains how she was 'swiftly turned away'. Mahaney's brother-in-law Gary Ricucci responded to her e-mail stating that there would be no interview with either of them. She goes on to describe in considerable detail the church's third anniversary celebration which took place the following morning. The climax of that 'church meeting' was Mahaney's sermon from the book of Job. I am familiar with what Tiffany described because I took the time to listen to the sermon audio shortly after it was made available on the church website. Here is what she wrote: (page 167)
Removing his glasses, Mahaney wiped a tear away with his sleeve and pulled out a tissue. "They turn on him and they attack him and its's relentless," he said in a near whisper, hunched over the podium.
As hes preaching reached a crescendo, Mahaney raised his hands and flapped his arms as if conducting an orchestra. He shouted, "Job's friends were wrong! Job was right!"
He lowered his voice again, telling his congregation they wouldn't make such a big mistake. "This is a church," he said without irony, "where those suffering wll be truly comforted."
What a shame that those who suffered so much at Covenant Life Church, Sovereign Grace Church Fairfax, KingsWay, and other churches in Sovereign Grace Ministries were not comforted in their time of desperate need. As their testimonies are communicated far and wide through articles such as this one, we pray that their faith in God and mankind will be restored. We are grateful that the Washingtonian Magazine saw fit to publish this article, and we appreciate the tremendous effort by Tiffany Stanley to cover such a complicated saga.
Finally, we love Tiffany's wrap-up as she explains what has become of those she mentions throughout the article. And we especially appreciate her glowing conclusion, which focuses on our dear friend Pam Palmer (page 167). (see below)
Pam Palmer's life, meanwhile, has indeed been transformed. She has become an activist. Last March, she testified before a Maryland Senate Committee to support a bill that would lengthen the civil statute of limitations in child-sex-abuse cases by 13 years. The ordeal prompted her to go back to school to earn her bachelor's degree in psychology, and she hopes to become a therapist for abuse survivors.
Over dinner last summer, Pam marveled at what a homeschooling, "stay-at-home Christian mom" managed to do — bring a group of people together to stand up against a denomination led by men.
"I don't believe now that that's the way Jesus meant the church to be set up," she says. "Do you think that cover-up of sex abuse would happen over and over again if women were involved in policy?"
Way to go Pam! Thanks for your care and concern for those hurt in the SGM 'family of churches' and for your tireless effort to try and change the laws regarding child sex abuse in Maryland. You are such a hero to us!
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Thanks Deb for the article and for making this a safe place for folks like SGM Survivors.
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Would women have cooperated as fully in the cover up? I’d like to say “Of course not” but then I look at some of the things that ‘patriarchy women’ seem to believe and then i’m not so sure…
Too scary when women lose their voice.
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molly245 wrote:
maybe it’s fear more than ‘loyalty’ to the men who rule …. at least I like to think that of women, that they would not willingly turn on the innocent or the helpless
I like to think that there is SOME solidarity among women, even if in the neo-Cal world there is no comprehension of the value of any woman as a human person worthy of respect because she carries a soul from God
I don’t know …. there was that case at SWBTS when they closed the daycare facilities, and an entire building was built for Dr. Dorothy Patterson to teach ‘tatting’, a kind of lace-making skill
at some point there ought to be some kind of ‘sisterhood’ among women …. so I think ‘fear’, far more than indoctrination, leads women to cover up the abuses of the helpless and the innocent by men ‘in charge’, yes
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An entire building to teach tatting? Now if they were going to make Amish style quilts, I could understand the space requirements (I’ve actually seen Amish ladies doing this in the community of London, Ohio). Most of the finished ones for sale were pretty big.
I can understand the ‘sisterhood’ idea at least in theory, but I think a powerful combination of fear, indoctrination, and sometimes ignorance can keep women in a religious community silent. The latter can be either wilful or the result of careful cultivation by men.
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@ Christiane:
True, the Neo-Cal religion is definitely fear-based. But there are many Arminian leaning outfits ruled by patriarchal autocrats who are also fear-based. Calvary Chapel comes to mind.
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It’s funny because I hardly ever went to the website, but now that it’s gone I miss it. I have healed from my experiences to a large extent, but that said, they will affect my life forever and I will never be free from them. I have moved on and continue to move on, but am a different person because of what I went through – and that includes good and bad aspects.
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It’s so important that sites like this remain up. I can only imagine how many people who were caught in similar situations at other churches have found and read the pages. The playbook tends to be the same, wherever it happens, and so often people remain and try to work through their confusion, thinking they are alone. Finding out that so many others have gone through the same thing is enlightening. It changes everything.
In the meantime, there are some pages archived at http://web.archive.org/web/20160401000000*/http://sgmsurvivors.com
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molly245 wrote:
Sadly, in the sexual molestation situation my family went through in our church, the women were as complicit in trying to cover it up as the men. There were two differences in how they approached it though: the women often had their own stories of sexual assault that had never been reported and they were less pushy in their use of scripture to try and convince me not to report the assault. However, their seeming sympathy due to their own experiences meant little when it came to holding the child molestor accountable. They still refused to stand up for us and are as guilty of covering up evil as the men.
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@ one of the little people:
And I would also add, these were not “patriarchy women” who’d lost their voices. They were Christians who have little understanding of the true impact of sexual assault (no matter their backstory) and their empathy for the oppressed and trafficked only extended as far as people they were not in relationship with. Their hypocrisy stinks.
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Christiane wrote:
Yet, what I found was that coverup has more to do with empathy and identification with the oppressor and his family. They like him or his parents or children or ministry. He is one of them. It is much easier to maintain the status quo than to bend down to the condition of the victim. That costs a lot more. They are unwilling to pay the cost. These same people will rail on in prayer meetings about justice for sexual trafficking victims, because it costs nothing, except maybe a few dollars. Standing with a victim in your church may cost valued relationships and the ephemeral image of holiness and church “family” they hide behind.
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one of the little people wrote:
you raise a very good point ….. and yet ‘standing with’ those in trouble comes from the very heart of the Holy Spirit who teaches us the way of ‘coming along side’ the ones who have been injured or whose burdens are too heavy for them to carry, and certainly to ‘stand with’ persecuted peoples against them what are ‘riding King Jesus to power’ by abusing and stepping on their victims ‘because they can’
…… I would be very, very fearful if I lived in a community where the powerful were abusive AND relied on me to ‘look away’ and keep silent in order for them to maintain their ability to continue to abuse ……
OR,
IF I willingly signed on emotionally to the abuse; THEN, I would become a ‘witness’ to satan who seeks to destroy the Church from within AS he turns willing people away from the Holy Spirit’s guidance and toward evil
Those who actively and willingly abuse others, or willingly ENABLE those who do the abuse, have no claim to being called ‘Christian’ witnesses, no.
They have willingly turned away from God.
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one of the little people wrote:
Just wondering which scriptures they warped beyond all recognition to try and convince people to not report sexual assault and molestation.
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Law Prof wrote:
Matthew 5:25-26: I was told by a teacher I respected very much and whom I considered a friend that “Jesus said to settle with your adversary on the way to court.” When I pointed out that he was not speaking of child molestation, he replied that “Jesus didn’t qualify it.” When I later (having read the actual scripture) asked if Jesus would apply that exhortation if his granddaughter was raped and murdered, he replied of course not. He just didn’t believe that child molestation as described in our case was all that serious. The courts disagreed fortunately.
Same guy also compared my reporting the molestation to the authorities with needing to report homosexuality in Iran. Imagine struggling with all the trauma of finding out your child has been molested and going to the church (whom you considered your friends) for help and this is the garbage heaped on your and your family’s head.
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@ one of the little people:
Just to be clear about the homosexuality in Iran simile, his meaning was that it would be an unjust law if he lived in Iran and was aware my son was homosexual. He’d have to report it, just as I was arguing that the molestation of my child by an adult young man who was the son of popular church leaders should be reported to the authorities.
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Christiane wrote:
They do not believe they are enabling it. They believe they are exhibiting Christian charity and forgiveness to the perpetrator. Or the other brilliant comment thrown our way was “I don’t want to take sides.”
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Christiane wrote:
Christiane, I have no doubt that fear does indeed play a role in women keeping quiet, especially in these Patriarchal churches. The operative word, or should I say words, that are used against women in these environments which contribute to an overwhelming, palpable fear are: rebellious, unsubmissive, Jezebel, Feminist. These are words that can strike FEAR into the heart of these women whose entire social structure is comprised mainly of church. Peer pressure is a weapon that is wielded with precision and intended to shame women into silence. There must come a point – if a woman wants to expose the manipulative, evil forces at work when it comes to covering up child sex abuse, or any other kind of abuse – to be resolved NOT to care what anyone in her social sphere may think of her. She must be willing to have her character maligned, to be publicly humiliated, and to face excommunication – even possibly lose her spouse’s love and support. The strength to stand up for the truth and what is right in these Patriarchal communities comes with a great cost; and a love for, and advocating for the rights of victims of abuse must take precedence over one’s comfort zone.
If anyone is interested, just read Doug Wilson’s recent article on submission. What woman would dare take a stand against child sex abuse, or any other kind of abuse, at the Moscow Kirk? According to Wilson, “unsubmissive women are a truly destructive force.”
https://dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/7-reasons-submission-not-dirty-word.html
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Muff Potter wrote:
Muff: Yes, indeed! Patriarchy resides in many corners of Christendom.
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Christiane wrote:
The daycare incident was at SEBTS, and I worked there. They just separated from the school, and the school made a statement that they didn’t think it was ‘proper’ for Christians to use daycare. We still had seminary kids and nearly all of our families were Christian, so it didn’t seem to have that much impact. I think it came more from the trustees, who all of course had six figure incomes, why would they need daycare?
I really don’t see why tatting would require more than a room, much less an entire building.
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Darlene wrote:
yes, and in many forms …. in other religions and cultures …… it’s the brutality against women within a Christian setting that is so jarring …..
as though it were somehow sanctioned by Our Lord that men could treat women in this way, but He didn’t ….. if anything, He is Personally responsible for the recognized formal position in the Church of ‘Apostola Apostolorum’, the title given to Mary Magdalene who, instructed to do so by Christ, carried the news of the Resurrection to the Apostles
I think the utter meanness and viciousness directed toward some Christian women openly IS done ‘as an example’ to other women about ‘what can happen’ if they were to ‘get out of line’ under a current regime:
the brutal treatment of Dr. Sheri Klouda was intensionally vicious, the men knowing her husband was extremely ill at the time….. and some of the stories here at TWW concerning how certain women were persecuted terribly speaks to me that the men were using these women as ‘examples’: a ‘warning’ to other women ‘see what can happen to you if you don’t dance to our tune’
in a Christian setting, these men reveal their own human brokenness by abusing these women,
not their ‘power’ and ‘authority’ over the victims.
The only real ‘authority’ any Christian leader ever has comes from Christ who treated women kindly as human persons. The abusers are simply ‘bullies’, hurting people because they feel they can do it and get away without accountability for their sin.
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@ one of the little people:
I am so sorry for the horrific ordeal your family was put through.
I was excommunicated and shunned at my former NeoCalvinist gulag (Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley) for opposing the pastors/elders bringing in their friend a Megan’s List sex offender/child pornographer, giving him church membership, a leadership position heading a team, access to all church events including Bible studies where people brought their children, inviting him to volunteer at a 5-day summer basketball camp for children that the church hosts, and telling NO ONE.
According to that sick and twisted lot of pastors/elders…I’m the problem. As Andrew Vachss (attorney, author, child advocate) says about these types of enablers, “They are just sick, but sickening.” Spot on.
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^correction to Andrew Vachss quote, “They aren’t just sick, but sickening.”
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Christiane wrote:
You might be surprised. My time in patriarchal tyranny taught me one thing well: sex has nothing to do with a person’s willingness to hurt the innocent in order to protect the status quo.
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“We just couldn’t understand the appeal.”
Which is the usual response by observers with any spiritual sense looking at the New Calvinist movement. Its leaders are a strange lot, indeed. Mahaney, Piper, etc. would not find prominence anywhere else. Why folks follow and defend such “preachers” is beyond me … there must be a spell cast over them.
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one of the little people wrote:
In some states all adults are mandated reporters. I can’t even fathom someone’s attempt to use this scripture to justify covering up abuse. It’s evil. Just evil.
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Max wrote:
I refer to the ‘spell’ as Spiritual Carbon Monoxide Poisoning. A person is knocked out before they know it.
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Seeking some volunteers from SGM Survivors to begin copying the archived posts ASAP. Please respond here.
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BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
I now support all adults as mandated reporters in all 50 states. Not only to increase the chance of children being rescued, but also to lift a huge burden off the shoulders of the victim’s family. In my state pastors are mandated reporters, so this so called pastor/friend is a mandated reporter. Not only did my church “friends” not want it reported, they didn’t want my child to go to a professional counselor, as she would not see us unless it was reported. They actually wanted to counsel my daughter themselves.
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Darlene wrote:
As a guy I used do know put it, “Whether Fascism of the Left or Fascism of the Right, Fascism is Fascism.” (His definition of “Fascism” was “Rule by Control Freaks”.)
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Max wrote:
“Strong Delusion, that they should believe a Lie”?
“Mutant Superpower: Believe Everything I Tell You”?
Or just really good con men working their marks?
(“You be the Mugu, I be the Masta!”)
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Velour wrote:
“A thing which seems right unto a man, but the end thereof…”?
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one of the little people wrote:
It breaks my heart. How can people be so devoid of reason and sense?
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siteseer wrote:
That question I no longer try to answer. If I could go back and do things over, one change would not be to trust that people will not only do, but even consider, the right thing. That understanding could have saved a lot of time and grief. I now strongly recommend that anyone who discovers child sexual abuse (or spousal abuse) NOT go to the church. The church is not equipped to deal with it. If you want to involve the church, do so after the crime is reported to the police AND you have a strong support structure already in place (and be very careful who you allow to give you advice. You will most likely not have the emotional resources to fight off attacks from friends, especially when they are “God-directed”). The church has too much of a vested interest in hiding it.
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one of the little people wrote:
This doesn’t surprise me. I think it’s just the reality of group dynamics. The group is more powerful than any individual in it. People don’t want to make waves, they don’t want to call anyone out, they don’t want to stand out from the crowd, they don’t want to change the status quo.
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one of the little people wrote:
Texas makes every adult a mandated reporter.
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one of the little people wrote:
I would say “warped beyond all recognition” applies. The man might be a friend, but he’s enormously foolish, deluded, dangerous, and, at the end of the day, a selfish jerk.
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siteseer wrote:
In other words, people calling themselves “Christians” who don’t want to be Christ-like.
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Max wrote:
It’s a source of amazement to me as well. In the corporate world, the academic world, just about anywhere else they’d be reviled as incompetent fools, as bull artists, as unemployable. But there, in that tiny little strange ungodly world, they’re demigods.
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siteseer wrote:
It’s easier for them to believe the victim did something wrong than to blow up their fantasy that evil is not creeping around in their house and they too could become victims of it. They don’t have a theology for that.
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Off-topic announcement.
Hi Folks,
There are many serious needs and prayer requests posted on E-Church. Your prayers
are appreciated.
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Law Prof wrote:
Of course the young reformers are totally depraved and unable to make choices on their own, so they end up with such leaders.
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one of the little people wrote:
In my former IFB church I remember women urging the mother of the perv to “fight it in court” so he wouldn’t go to jail.
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Law Prof wrote:
Told him the same thing in a 2 1/2 hour meeting. He argued the entire time. Now I wouldn’t waste my breath. His reward for his foolishness? He was made a lay pastor and continues to teach from the pulpit. I told him he’s dangerous because of his reputation as a teacher combined with his arrogance. Not everyone would be able to recognize how wrong he is. We left the church.
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A link to consider.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Sovereign_Grace_Churches
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Max wrote:
Codependency.
“…a dysfunctional … relationship where one person relies on the other for meeting nearly all of their emotional, [spiritual], and self-esteem needs. It also describes a relationship that enables another person to maintain their irresponsible, addictive, or [incompetent leadership] underachieving behavior.” – Symptoms of Codependency by Lancer, http://bit.ly/2mujOPY
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Thanks, Dee and Deb for putting this in place. I noticed that the Survivors site seemed more active in the past several months than it had been in awhile. I checked in about every other week or so and notice that in February and March there was a lot more posting than usual especially from one particular person who said he was researching cults. I hope the shutdown is simply just a lapse in paying for the domain and nothing more.
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Law Prof wrote:
New Calvinism is a bizarre and potent form of idolatry. Its followers are blind, but its leaders are not … the big dogs know exactly what they are doing as they pick pockets of idol worshipers across America who buy their books and attend their conferences. Our youth are being sacrificed at their altars … we are losing the next generation church to this aberration of faith. Whose plan would that be?
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Max wrote:
That is calling it like it is.
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JYJames wrote:
When Calvin’s name is dropped more than Christ’s in “church” … when religious doctrines of men supersede a relationship with Jesus … you can bet that’s what it is! America has become a land of idolaters – both outside and inside the church (which is not the Church).
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one of the little people wrote:
Awful. I think Jesus was pretty clear on how he felt about people who abuse children.
one of the little people wrote:
I think we also have seen this when people are protecting pastors/priests.
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Max wrote:
I agree with you generally. However, I wonder if many of the followers of neocalvinism (e.g., the ones who read the fathers of the modern church, such as Calvin and Edwards, more than the words of Jesus) aren’t actually drawn to neocalvinism because that’s what they wanted in the first place: a man to worship. Those man-worshippers (many of whom aren’t just misguided Christians but not Christians at all) have always been around, they’ve just found different popular movements to support their idolatry, and even now, there are no shortage of movements that will do this that are far afield of calvinism, like Creflo Dollar, Rick Warren, Bill Gothard and media outlets like TBN–plenty of idols to worship there.
So while neocalvinism probably makes idolaters, it also attracts idolaters. In some ways it might even be good for healthy fellowships, because the crowd that ignores the Second Commandment might otherwise be hanging around healthy fellowships, trying to turn them into little corners of hell (on second thought, neocalvinists seem to specialize in that, so never mind).
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one of the little people wrote:
Good for you. Arrogance and Christian do not go together. Neither, I suppose, does turning a blind eye to hurting little ones go together with the Christ Who said such behavior warranted drowning. seems like your former friend’s biggest problem is with Jesus Himself, Whom he apparently must just hate based on his utter disregard for His strong words aimed directly at behavior like his.
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@ Really:
I saw this. What a mess. I see they got a bit of a dig in at our website. I had a good laugh.
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Max wrote:
It’s been 500 years since Luther and (all genuflect) Calvin.
Christianity’s due for another one of its 500-year major shakeups.
Except this time the 95 Theses won’t be nailed to the door of the Vatican.
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one of the little people wrote:
“The little lanes and houses where
I learned with little labor
The way to Love My Fellow Man
And hate my next-door neighbor.”
— Chesterton
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@ dee:
Saw under the ‘Southern Baptist’ section that ‘TWW is not a reliable source’.
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Really wrote:
Might help if they support their opinions with something other than just bare assertions. TWW is not an unreliable source simply because they say it; I understand this was a casual back-and-forth among Wikipedia geeks, some of whom probably have a strong vested interest in SGM, otherwise they likely wouldn’t care, but the irony here is that TWW typically supports opinions about SGM and the like with eyewitness testimony, links to articles and other documents, while these people claiming someone else’s “unreliability” are making that statement in a manner that is about the most unreliable possible. Do these people study logic?
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Christiane wrote:
Good grief!! I happen to know how to tat. It takes absolutely no space beyond the average comfy chair.
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Deb wrote:
Written, I’m sure by someone we ticked off by linking to something they did.
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Law Prof wrote:
Only when it is to their personal advantage.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Ha! And of course even when they use logic, their idea of logic usually involves ad hominem, invective, faulty analogies, sweeping generalizations and downright balderdash.
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dee wrote:
Well Deebs, I’ve been a Southern Baptist for 60+ years (something I’m currently reconsidering) and I can tell you that TWW is the most reliable source of what’s really going on in SBC life that I’ve found on-line. You are accurately confirming what I see on my end regarding the ails of New Calvinist belief, practice and leadership taking over a once-great denomination. You are faithful watch(wo)men on the wall … keep up the good work!
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Max wrote:
I was baptised in the SoBap church, I also have been an elder in a neocalvinist church. The problem with TWW from the perspective of the Wikipedia geeks cited, the thing they really don’t like about it, is that it is generally accurate–and they definitely DO NOT like that!
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@ Max:
You are kind. We always link to our sources so I don’t see how that can be considered not being accurate. Maybe it is too accurate.
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FTFaculty wrote:
Bless your heart. We provide links to our sources. Why don’t you do so as well since you are supposed some sort of faculty.
And be careful with HUG. he actually likes us.
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dee wrote:
Huh? I was agreeing with you, dee. I’m on your side and HUG’s. I was saying the yahoos taking shots at you are not providing links or anything of the sort, just bare accusations. Honest.
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Hey dee, I know the problem, I inadvertently signed in under a nom de plume that I use on an educational forum (FT Faculty) and then made the comment that got interpreted as being directed at you. Just saw that. Case of mistaken identity and intent. – FT Faculty aka Law Prof
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@ Law Prof:
Thank you for letting me know. Now I get it. Sometimes I am a bit dense!! You are the best and I love your comments!!!!
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dee wrote:
How can I be the best when YOU’re the best?
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Please comment at the new SGM post so we can keep track of things. We closed down commenting on this one.