Wow that church has nerve!

Why don’t they just declare themselves an independent country (the Vatican did it!) and see what happens.

Church cops? Things would have been so much better if only Jesus had thought of that.

I’m sure the lead pastor is very excited to add “God’s Sheriff” to his list of titles. He’ll be the envy of all the other mega-pastors, showing off his customized badge with gold inlays.

What could go wrong? Here is another 9 Marks church that demands that I submit to leadership. The 9 Marks church that excommunicated me threatened police action when I showed up to try and defend myself against my pastor/accuser. The 9 Marks church replant threatened police action based on my mere presence on campus since I disagreed with their membership policy.

Now the elders will have police authority?

Dale wrote:

Now the elders will have police authority?

Scariest scenario I have ever seen. No way would I be part of such Marxist church (if you want to call it a church).

Dale wrote:

What could go wrong? Here is another 9 Marks church that demands that I submit to leadership. The 9 Marks church that excommunicated me threatened police action when I showed up to try and defend myself against my pastor/accuser. The 9 Marks church replant threatened police action based on my mere presence on campus since I disagreed with their membership policy.
Now the elders will have police authority?

Exactly.

I had the same experience with my former gulag/9 Marxist organization Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley.

I was to be “disciplined” by the chairman of the elder board for being in “sin” and to assume responsibility for the genetically inherited brain disorder and major memory problems of a woman church member, who has refused all medical care and support groups for her disability. When it all goes wrong she accuses other people, including me, of “lying” because she can’t remember entire events and conversations. At GBFSV they don’t believe in medical care but in blame shifting. The senior pastor has a fake Ph.D. that costs $299 from a diploma mill. He constantly engages in the Unauthorized Practice of Medicine, a crime in my state.

I have never been threatened or disciplined so many times for so many bizarre things as I was at that church of nutcases!

The chairman of the elder board pulled his last stunt on me when I was acutely ill with a serious lung condition, I had been gone from church for 5 weeks, in and out of the hospital emergency room for acute breathing problems, having to get weekly or twice weekly breathing treatments, and getting only 2-hours of sleep a month for more than 2 months due to breathing problems.

Just what everybody needs when they’re acutely ill, right?

What happens if a pastor or elder is found to be doing something breaking the law? Do they follow civil law or God’s law?

Police department …… do they want their own jail, too?
How about judges and a courthouse, truancy officers, post office, and a highway dept.?

Deb wrote:

Also, he’s a Council Member for The Gospel Coalition.

‘Curiouser and curiouser!’

(quoting Lewis Carroll’s ‘Alice’) 🙂

Deb wrote:

Also, he’s a Council Member for The Gospel Coalition.

So, would Briarwood use a police department to enforce Complementarianism! Snort!

https://briarwood.org/webstore/product/christian-manhood-illustrated/

If I'm not mistaken, one of the cities in Utah supported by its local religion has just been asked to disband it's police force because they let believers slide and unfairly targeted unbelievers. It's not that it hasn't been done before – but when it has been done, it's partial and therefore cannot be just: "A jury concluded that the neighboring towns violated the constitutional rights of nonbelievers by denying them basic government services such as police protection, building permits and water hookups. The police department was found to have arrested nonbelievers without having probable cause and made unreasonable searches of property."

I believe they have a hidden agenda. Why not just contract with a private security company?

I am sure it would be cheaper than having your own police force.

Divorce Minister wrote:

A group with history of controlling people (e.g. telling who can date) gets a police department…what could possibly go wrong? Right.

LOL …. sorry, but that WAS funny

PaJo wrote:

The question that comes to MY mind is why colleges have private police forces.

Ours don’t (California). They may have campus security. Their law enforcement officers are through the Sheriff’s Department.

Christiane wrote:

Do separatist Mormon polygamous cults have their own ‘police force’?

Can you say “Danites”?

This would mean that members of Briarwood Presbyterian Church and Briarwood Christian School and those visiting the campus, would have no recourse to outside authorities in the event of a crime such as domestic violence, child sex abuse, rape, theft, etc. This church would be a law unto itself. Add the repeal of the Johnson Act and we are entering into very dangerous waters in which local church bodies will only be answerable to themselves. Flashing Danger Sign!

Christiane wrote:

Honestly, in this day when our mentally ill have now been awarded gun rights, security IS important …. but in a cult, a private police force is at the service of them what runs the cult, and God help those who oppose the ‘leadership’.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danite

Jamie Carter wrote:

If I’m not mistaken, one of the cities in Utah supported by it’s local religion has just been asked to disband it’s police force because they let believers slide and unfairly targeted unbelievers. It’s not that it hasn’t been done before – but when it has been done, it’s partial and therefore cannot be just: “A jury concluded that the neighboring towns violated the constitutional rights of nonbelievers by denying them basic government services such as police protection, building permits and water hookups. The police department was found to have arrested nonbelievers without having probable cause and made unreasonable searches of property.”

Just imagine how folks who aren’t in lock step with Briarwood’s beliefs would be treated if they had their own police force. This is scary stuff. I’m not a lawyer but if BPC were able to have their own police force, wouldn’t they be violating the First Amendment?

Velour wrote:

PaJo wrote:
The question that comes to MY mind is why colleges have private police forces.
Ours don’t (California). They may have campus security. Their law enforcement officers are through the Sheriff’s Department.

Yes, this is how it is in Pennsylvania as well. If a crime is committed on a college campus such a rape or theft, the local police force in that jurisdiction is called on to handle the case.

Can i say this is a recipe for covering up abuse and scandles? What law enforcement training would the leadership have for law enforcement to have to get their orders from leadership in this church?

Hmm…I dont see the justification, legally and practically, for allowing a church to create ita own police force. If they have that many events, hire a security company or create security guard positions on staff, and make them responsible for protecting property and people, but always, ALWAYS answerable to the local civil authorities. Do not give a church – any church – the power of having their own police force. It is a recipe for abuse and any church that insists they need one is too into power.

Velour wrote:

Yes, speaking of “Sharia Law”…I think this is it.

Kristallnacht, Velour.

Does the pastor/leadership at Briarwood Presbyterian Church believe in theonomy/reconstructionism? If so, it would be especially dangerous for them to have their own police force.

Reading this gives me a sinking sense of horror to come. It is a bad, bad, bad idea.

Kathi wrote:

What happens if a pastor or elder is found to be doing something breaking the law? Do they follow civil law or God’s law?

Are they even remotely familiar with conflict of interest. There is no way IMO a church member would get a fair hearing if they are charged with something.

Velour wrote:

Yes, speaking of “Sharia Law”…I think this is it.

Sounds like a local theocracy, but maybe that’s just me.

If if it was a mosque asking to establish a police force the entire country would be going berserk.

JeffT wrote:

Velour wrote:

Yes, speaking of “Sharia Law”…I think this is it.

Sounds like a local theocracy, but maybe that’s just me.

If if it was a mosque asking to establish a police force the entire country would be going berserk.

Why do these people put up with this nonsense??

@ Muslin, fka Dee Holmes:

Even in the Hilldale/Colorado City case, the police force was established by a local government, not a religion. The problem was that a particular religion composed an overwhelming number of the voting population. In this case, a particular religion is being given it’s own police force with no color of local government at all. To me, that has to be unconstitutional as an establishment of religion.

This is so bad, it doesn’t even need to be argued.

I visited Briarwood at its old campus back in the day some 35 years ago. The pastor then, Frank Barker, was a nice guy.

I visited the new camps about 17 years ago.

I can’t for the life of me think why Briarwood would think this would be a good idea.

Nancy2 wrote:

How bad do the 4,100 members of that church have to be for the church to need it’s own private police dept.?

Who would the Police Force police?

In 2008 Briarwood flew my wife and me to Birmingham for a long weekend to interview for an open pastor position. We had a great time and met a lot nice people. The “Great Recession” began shortly after that and the position was not filled for several years.

It saddens me to read this. I have much respect for what the Lord has done through BPC (the least of which is the formation of the PCA denomination) and still keep up with the pastor from time to time. However, I have serious misgivings with this or any church having its own police force, or even a security team. That’s all any megalomaniacal pastor needs (I am not referring to Harry Reeder with this statement), to have a gun and arrest authority at their disposal.

Unbelievable.

NJ wrote:

Do they actually need 3,000 events per year for 4,100 members?

Do you really believe that number? I don’t. That number equals over 8 events per day, 365 days a year. That is absurd, unless a trip to the bathroom by Reed is counted as an event . . .

JYJames wrote:

Nancy2 wrote:

How bad do the 4,100 members of that church have to be for the church to need it’s own private police dept.?

Who would the Police Force police?

The Tithing Units.

I am completely fascinated and simulatenuously extremely unsettled and unnerved by this hyper-authoritarion trend going on in evangelical and conservative church culture. I have my personal sociological theories as to why it’s occurring, but it’s hard to certainly pinpoint it in the midst of it all happening. It continues to bewilder and confuse me.

One thing for sure is it is going to produce some interesting academic dissertations and church history work/reflection starting in about 50-100 years.

Bridget wrote:

NJ wrote:

Do they actually need 3,000 events per year for 4,100 members?

Do you really believe that number? I don’t. That number equals over 8 events per day, 365 days a year. That is absurd, unless a trip to the bathroom by Reed is counted as an event . . .

You never know…

“WE ARE UNITED BEHIND THE VISIONARY!” — Pastor Furtick Coloring Book

brad/futuristguy wrote:

Or one failure by “church leaders” who oversee their police force — or by those they hire as police — to report infractions of local, state, and/or federal laws as

How long before church law enforcement and civil law enforcement clash?

emily honey wrote:

this hyper-authoritarion trend going on in evangelical and conservative church culture

Except, the sheer hypocrisy is disgraceful.

Note earlier recent TWW posts: alleged rapists as Conference Superstars? child abuse cover-uppers are Church Leaders?

Those who want their own Police Force do not even respect US law already in place.

In the proposed Christendom Police Force, Who is policing whom, and for what offenses or protection?

[This is why, with campus rape, victims have requested that cases be moved off campus to be investigated by municipal law enforcement, outside of the university’s own security/police force, so that the case would actually go through due process with integrity instead of cover-up.]

Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:

Or you could just ask how people would feel if Scientology got its own private, state-chartered police force.

Not for lack of trying.
Remember the Guardian’s Office and RPF?

Nancy2 wrote:

Velour wrote:

There’s three weeks of wringing a financial commitment out of folks for the next year. Crass. Why not let the Holy Spirit lead people?

Up next: Briarwood IRS.

“TITHE! TITHE! TITHE! TITHE! TITHE!”

JYJames wrote:

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Pastor/Dictator using actual local cops as his Enforcers.

Enforcing what and protecting whom?

The Will of GAWD channeled through Lead Pastor/Head Apostle, of course.
Including Spectral Evidence (“I SEE Things…”)

I’m confused why you quoted me in your comment, and what you are making an exception to in my comment?

JYJames wrote:

emily honey wrote:

this hyper-authoritarion trend going on in evangelical and conservative church culture

Except, the sheer hypocrisy is disgraceful.

Note earlier recent TWW posts: alleged rapists as Conference Superstars? child abuse cover-uppers are Church Leaders?

Those who want their own Police Force do not even respect US law already in place.

In the proposed Christendom Police Force, Who is policing whom, and for what offenses or protection?

[This is why, with campus rape, victims have requested that cases be moved off campus to be investigated by municipal law enforcement, outside of the university’s own security/police force, so that the case would actually go through due process with integrity instead of cover-up.]

“They will conduct their own investigations,” explained Rowe. “They will conduct their own security. They will make their own arrests”.

I can’t wrap my brain around the fact that a Representative would cite these facts as POSITIVES.

Edward wrote:

“They will conduct their own investigations,” explained Rowe. “They will conduct their own security. They will make their own arrests”.

I can’t wrap my brain around the fact that a Representative would cite these facts as POSITIVES.

The Representative is CHRISTIAN(TM)?

Culture War Without End, Hay-men.

emily honey wrote:

Except

Sorry. Except was the wrong word. Should be, “In addition…” or maybe, “Moreover”…
Thanks for your patience and understanding.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

The Representative is CHRISTIAN(TM)?
Culture War Without End, Hay-men.

Sigh. I’d like to believe that the Christian Dominionists are a tiny fringe, but they are gaining steam and lusting for power.

Alabama readers of this Blog can do more than vent on this site. Contact your legislators in the Alabama House and Alabama senate. If you don’t know your senator or rep., use this helpful site: http://capwiz.com/state-al/home/ . You may have to give your address instead of your zip code. Make sure to click on the right “button” (and no I do not think you are not giving them enough info. to worry about Big Brother – the Alabama version of Big Brother is cash strapped anyway). A piece of advice, it could be good to pray for wisdom before you write, Email or call.

A correction: the post at 11:46 AM should read “”and no, I do not think you are giving them enough info.”

Edward wrote:

“They will conduct their own investigations,” explained Rowe. “They will conduct their own security. They will make their own arrests”.
I can’t wrap my brain around the fact that a Representative would cite these facts as POSITIVES.

Exactly……… makes me wonder what kind of ugly stuff is and has been going on inside the church.

Nancy2 wrote:

Edward wrote:

“They will conduct their own investigations,” explained Rowe. “They will conduct their own security. They will make their own arrests”.
I can’t wrap my brain around the fact that a Representative would cite these facts as POSITIVES.

Exactly……… makes me wonder what kind of ugly stuff is and has been going on inside the church.

Reminds me of how Jim Humble cited the Catholic sex abuse coverups as a positive. He basically argued that “you can get away with anything by registering as a church”. Including, in his case, telling people to literally drink bleach.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2010/sep/15/miracle-mineral-solutions-mms-bleach

I haven’t made it through all of the comments, so maybe this has already been brought up.

http://www.al.com/opinion/index.ssf/2015/04/drug_bust_at_briarwood_christi.html

Not so long ago, state and local news outlets reported on some drug arrests at the school. Some felt that local law enforcement treated the situation differently (in terms of the information released to the public) than they might have if the same had happened at one of the local suburban or inner city public schools. It disturbs me that now they want their own police force.

@ caroline:
Thanks! I came across some of that information while putting the post together.

@ Deb:
It’s interesting that both the “drug bust” and the initial bill were in 2015.

@ Nancy2:
Spot on.

Velour wrote:

PaJo wrote:
The question that comes to MY mind is why colleges have private police forces.
Ours don’t (California). They may have campus security. Their law enforcement officers are through the Sheriff’s Department.

Mine did also. But I attended Florida State, which is a large campus with a large population. I think a lot depends on the size of the campus.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Kathi wrote:
What happens if a pastor or elder is found to be doing something breaking the law? Do they follow civil law or God’s law?
Would Penn State cops dare raise hand against JoePa and The Sandusky?

Not as long as their football team was winning!!

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/college/ct-notre-dame-campus-reports-secret-20161116-story.html

“November 16, 2016

The Indiana Supreme Court says the University of Notre Dame can keep campus police reports secret.

The ruling Wednesday came in a lawsuit filed by ESPN seeking records about alleged crimes by student-athletes from the campus police department. The court’s unanimous ruling says the private university’s police department isn’t a public agency that falls under the state open records law.

That decision reverses a lower court ruling that the Notre Dame police department should be subject to public access laws because it has legal authority from the state to make arrests and has jurisdiction beyond the university’s campus.”

As far as California, I’ll note first that state universities and colleges are part of the government so police forces there are still government employees.

Two private colleges, Stanford and the University of the Pacific, have their own police force which are considered reserve officers of the respective county sheriffs’ departments (this was done by an understanding between the county and the university and may have been dicey legally). The law recently changed to make it official http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201520160AB2361 apparently so that the University of Southern California could have one. There are some restrictions. The university officers only has that power when on the job and it is limited in area.

Erp wrote:

As far as California, I’ll note first that state universities and colleges are part of the government so police forces there are still government employees.

Affirmative.
California State University Police, jurisdiction limited to State college grounds and property.

Dew wrote:

@ Kathi:
The pastor arrests himself or not as he sees fit.

“TOUCH NOT MINE ANOINTED! DO MY PROPHET NO HARM!”

Bridget wrote:

They don’t hold their own court, though, do they? They also get local police involved.

Many of the campuses in the Southeast with campus police forces also hold court on campus, often run by students. Victims have to request to move the jurisdiction off-campus, and often the university fights it in cases that might damage their reputation. This has caused a number of cover-ups in the past as university officials put pressure on the honor courts to keep victims quiet.

I posted an article earlier, but just do a Google search for “campus police not deal with rape” and a whole bunch of schools and incidents come up.

Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Speaking of church police forces, what does Scientology call the Guardian’s Office these days?

The Office of Special Affairs. No change in mission — they still handle PR, legal affairs, espionage, and dirty tricks. Just a different coat of paint.

ChEKA changes its name to OGPU which changes its name to NKVD which changes its name to KGB…

Muff Potter wrote:

Shauna wrote:

Can i say this is a recipe for covering up abuse and scandles? What law enforcement training would the leadership have for law enforcement to have to get their orders from leadership in this church?

Yes you can Shauna. It’s an excellent point. When it’s hard enough as it is for municipal law enforcement to go after child sex abusers in religious organizations, this will be like ringing the dinner bell for predators.

Feature, not Bug.

ishy wrote:

Bridget wrote:

They don’t hold their own court, though, do they? They also get local police involved.

Many of the campuses in the Southeast with campus police forces also hold court on campus, often run by students

You say “Southeast”, I say “Former Confederate States”.

Some radio hosts years ago reporting on some “News of the Weird” from the former CSA said “It’s like a different country down there.” Well, it WAS a different country for four years between 1861 & 1865.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

You say “Southeast”, I say “Former Confederate States”.
Some radio hosts years ago reporting on some “News of the Weird” from the former CSA said “It’s like a different country down there.” Well, it WAS a different country for four years between 1861 & 1865.

While they are common on campuses down here, searching reveals campuses all over the country who are guilty of the same thing.

Bridget wrote:

@ Christiane:

You do realize that most everything you wrote here could be applied to Catholicism and its leaders throughout the ages?

Your comment doesn’t make sense ….. try reading what I wrote again, and be more specific in your questioning …. the Vatican Swiss Guard has been in existence only for a portion of the two millenia that Christians have used the portion of Rome where the current Basilica of St. Peter is built over the Roman necropolis where St. Peter’s body was buried. The history of the Swiss Guard is interesting but it has not been a part of the Church for ‘the ages’, no. 🙂

Try being specific as to what was written. I don’t mind responding to your questions, Bridget, if they make sense.

Edward wrote:

“They will conduct their own investigations,”

An autocratic leader sets out to investigate the source of revealing leaks. Yes, he WILL find out who is letting the cat out of the bag. He WILL! 🙂

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:

If you are not familiar with the 11 nations theory of U. S. cultures you might find it interesting.

@ Christiane:

You could make sense of it if you wanted to. I was referring to the last three paragraphs.

Jerome wrote:

The Indiana Supreme Court says the University of Notre Dame can keep campus police reports secret.

What happens there, stays there.

@ Bridget:
@ Bridget:
The last three paragraphs? Were you referring to this?

“This place is more like a ‘cult’ or a ‘cult’ in progress which will get its way as long as it has political backing …. look at the influence of Doug Wilson’s cult in Moscow, Idaho….. we can see something in what has already played out in certain cults, yes

Honestly, in this day when our mentally ill have now been awarded gun rights, security IS important …. but in a cult, a private police force is at the service of them what runs the cult, and God help those who oppose the ‘leadership’.

Not good, but in the political climate we are now in, nothing surprises anymore.”

Once again, your comment did not make sense to me.
If you care to be specific, it would help me to understand you better and to respond respectfully.

May I also here defend our HUG who sees with enough clarity that in a few words, he manages to put up a mirror for us all to see ourselves? That is an invaluable service. I don’t mind being commented on by HUG …. he’s almost always ‘gets it’ with humor and wit that adds to the blog’s integrity. I AM a fan. I need our Headless to help me laugh at myself. Or I should become incorrigible indeed. 🙂

Why does a church need a police force? What kind of “investigations” do they find themselves in need of doing that the real police cannot do?

Who are they accountable to? What oversight do they have? What recourse do those have who are treated unfairly by them?

Would they have access to records, documents, search capabilities that only law enforcement has?

Given the amount of corruption and self-interest that is common in churches, how could anyone think this would not end badly?

I can see nothing good coming out of this and a terrifying amount of bad.

With the track record of the church, in general, regarding law and law enforcement in the US, one cannot imagine a local church with an effective in-house self-contained police force.

ishy wrote:

I posted an article earlier, but just do a Google search for “campus police not deal with rape” and a whole bunch of schools and incidents come up.

It’s huge, scandals across the whole country. There is a conflict of interest; news that reflects badly on the college affects dollars coming in. Many times sports are involved and there’s the added problem of hurting the team if a member is held accountable. If colleges cannot maintain a neutral police force, who thinks that a church would?

ishy wrote:

I posted an article earlier, but just do a Google search for “campus police not deal with rape” and a whole bunch of schools and incidents come up.

And just to mention one famous case, Jesse Matthew, who played football for Liberty U, who was accused of rape but not charged. He later went on to murder Morgan Harrington and Hannah Graham.

@ JYJames:

It is not the campus cops who are the crux of the problem, it is the university tribunals that look into the case and make decisions. Or so I read.

siteseer wrote:

What kind of “investigations” do they find themselves in need of doing that the real police cannot do?

more likely they will exist to block investigations, to root out the ‘leakers’ of who did what to whom, and to cover up for the big boss ….. I assume the ‘church’ would be paying the salaries of these cult warriors, unless of course the church can manage local politicians to make the local community pay the salaries ………. the cult cops are not going to be there to ‘protect’ anyone but them what pays them OR to follow any directives other than the mission laid out for them by the ‘leadership’

trust? laughable, and sadly so

but for people dumb enough to sign a ‘membership contract’, all manner of controls can be applied and these poor sheep will not ‘get it’ until one of their own precious lambs is being sacrificed

okrapod wrote:

@ JYJames:
It is not the campus cops who are the crux of the problem, it is the university tribunals that look into the case and make decisions. Or so I read.

Some of those articles talk about how campus police either ignored reports completely, so they never even got to the honor courts, or they did very minimal investigations. So I think any time you have a police force beholden to an institution, and not to the public at large, you have a problem.

Most churches these days are struggling with what to do about security, regardless of size. I know of several in my area that have church members carrying concealed weapons during all services. We live in sad times.

In the early church, if you messed with God’s agenda, you died at the door (e.g., Ananias and Sapphira). Now, we have to pack heat to scare the devil off.

emily honey wrote:

hyper-authoritarian trend

“Hyper-authoritarian” captures the situation in the post.

Every time there is overreach in a church, the Bereans come to mind, with their eagerness AND scriptural research.

Acts 17: 11 “Now the Bereans were more noble-minded than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day …”

JYJames wrote:

You mention athlete mystique; how about celebrity church leadership?

I have no personal experience with abusive church leadership, but in my pursuit of education I did spend one year as a school nurse at a college and in that capacity say a glimpse (all the glimpse I wanted to see) of the athletes and the athletic department. So, I need to refrain from criticizing what I have not actually seen and restrict myself to what I have seen.

Max wrote:

Most churches these days are struggling with what to do about security, regardless of size. I know of several in my area that have church members carrying concealed weapons during all services. We live in sad times.

In the early church, if you messed with God’s agenda, you died at the door (e.g., Ananias and Sapphira). Now, we have to pack heat to scare the devil off.

as the psalm tells us, ‘Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain’

Max wrote:

Most churches these days are struggling with what to do about security, regardless of size. I know of several in my area that have church members carrying concealed weapons during all services. We live in sad times.

Yes, and it is not just churches. I see ‘personal responsibility for security’ in various places.

What our church did was increase the number of hired off duty cops from one to two during services. Then we set up a room, open 24 hours, for the cops. Any cop, not just those we pay. They can stop by, help themselves to free snacks, avail themselves of the recliners, and just have a coffee break.

The reason we do this for the cops and for the homeless shelter and for the burial of the babies and for the moravian mission and why we partner with a small and poor church in Puerto Rico is because we don’t do any community or missions outreach or anything and therefore should have any and all tax advantage taken away from the church. (Sarcasm, needless to say.)

okrapod wrote:

we do this for the cops and for the homeless shelter and for the burial of the babies and for the moravian mission and why we partner with a small and poor church in Puerto Rico

Great missions! Sounds like a church doing what it is supposed to! I’ve always felt it is better for church folks to be engaged directly in such outreach, rather than to send a check to a denominational entity to do their missions for them. There is room for both, but local churches really need to be more involved with the Great Commission, with hands-on faith in action where they can see needs being met in Jesus’ name.

okrapod wrote:

BTW they are called Resource Officers, and they are cops, but they would have been no help at all in the situation at the g’kids school, since nobody broke any law.

Good distinction. In general, I think it’s helpful that schools with resource officers have broad choices for disciplining kids. They can handle things through administrative discipline (detention, etc.), through the courts, or both.

This often leads to more discipline rather than less.

@ Friend:
I completely agree with your comment re: confidentiality for minors. I agree, too, that we can’t really know how it would have been handled at another school. I can only tell you, anecdotally, that when I lived in Birmingham, it was not uncommon to hear news reports of four unnamed minors arrested on drug-related charges at local high school, or XX amount of some drug seized at local high school, or similar. I hope that Briarwood officials wanted to keep things quiet purely out of concern for the offending juveniles, but I am cynical enough to believe that they realized that maintaining a distinction between themselves and the hell-bound public school crowd was good for enrollment and $$$.

caroline wrote:

I am cynical enough to believe that they realized that maintaining a distinction between themselves and the hell-bound public school crowd was good for enrollment and $$$

and I always thought that the rise in ‘Christian’ schools was a reaction to integration, or so I had been led to believe

@ okrapod:
Sounds like a cool church.

@ NJ:
I was wondering the same thing myself, that’s like 10 events per day? Maybe they are counting classes at their school?

While I think the church shooting was very tragic, logically the chances of getting shot in church are infinitesimal. You are much more likely to be killed in a car accident on the way to church. Will the church buy a fleet of buses to provide safer transportation to all members?

caroline wrote:

when I lived in Birmingham, it was not uncommon to hear news reports of four unnamed minors arrested on drug-related charges at local high school

Where I live, the high school of a minor involved in a crime is not usually named in the news. If something serious happens (like a creepy guy trying to lure kids into his vehicle), the school is named.

Todd Wilhelm wrote:

I believe they have a hidden agenda. Why not just contract with a private security company?

I am sure it would be cheaper than having your own police force.

But your own police force could claim jurisdiction.

Very handy for dealing with dissenters, and keeping prying eyes out.

Also the Berlin Wall wasn’t built to keep people out.

Bill M wrote:

Christiane wrote:

I always thought that the rise in ‘Christian’ schools was a reaction to integration, or so I had been led to believe

I can’t help but take this one personally. We moved our two children from a public school because one was being bullied by other kids and school officials turned a blind eye and the other began to hate going. Putting them in a different environment was the best decision we ever made. I can speak for the motives of many other people who made the same decision and the implication of racism is offensive.

Hi BILL M
I was in Norfolk VA when they closed the schools rather than integrate …. a friend, at the time named Kathryn Harris, was one of the students (white) involved in one court battle to get the schools re-opened (her family were Quakers and so they were very socially responsible people). Perhaps you have heard of the trouble in Norfolk? It was in the fifties, so maybe not. Of the young black students who finally did enter into school when they reopened (known as the Norfolk 17), some terrible things happened. They were abused, one girl was stabbed, and it went on for months and years. My friend Kathryn told me from her point of view what she saw also.

I am sorry if you are offended. I had learned about the ‘rise’ of Christian schools because of that reason during that time. I believe it happened even with Jerry Falwell, that he founded a Christian academy that was for white students only at that terrible time.

I am not against Christian schools, no …. my own children went to St. Catherine’s in Ringwood NJ. My daughter never set foot in a public school. The public schools near us at the time were brutal … I know, because I substitute taught for them and took a good look and said ‘not my kids, no way’, so I know what you must have gone through.

Good parents will do anything to help their children, and my parents sacrificed for myself and my siblings and my husband and I did the same for our children.

But the truth about what happened in Virginia is not pretty. And not all of the ‘schools’ that opened to white-only children were ‘Christian’, of course not. But we saw too much, I guess, when I was young, and I stand witness to some of it.

I’m sorry. That was a long time ago. Today, people have serious other reasons for seeking private and parochial alternatives for their little ones. You were right to be offended, I suppose. I spoke of a long time ago.

Deb wrote:

@ caroline:
Thanks! I came across some of that information while putting the post together.

I feel like I’m having a KKK vision. Take a look at this 2015 Bill from MS. At first glance it may seem unrelated beyond the time-frame. Around line 600+ the language get’s weird. Felt strange to have no mention of pickups, rope or bedsheets.
http://billstatus.ls.state.ms.us/documents/2016/pdf/HB/0700-0799/HB0786PS.pdf

Priscilla wrote:

@ NJ:
I was wondering the same thing myself, that’s like 10 events per day? Maybe they are counting classes at their school?

While I think the church shooting was very tragic, logically the chances of getting shot in church are infinitesimal. You are much more likely to be killed in a car accident on the way to church. Will the church buy a fleet of buses to provide safer transportation to all members?

Another thing is that the church shooting in Charleston was motivated by racial animus (it targeted a black AME church with historical significance going back to the 1800s). Most attacks on houses of worship in the US are motivated by anti-minority sentiment (toward either an ethnic minority or a minority religion). That wouldn’t be a factor in the case of Briarwood (which is Protestant and, I presume, majority-white). We don’t really have a tradition of atheists or Satanists targeting congregations simply for being Christian (Varg Vikernes has few fans here).

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

JYJames wrote:
Nancy2 wrote:
How bad do the 4,100 members of that church have to be for the church to need it’s own private police dept.?
Who would the Police Force police?
The Tithing Units.

Imagine Creflo Dollar having his own police force! Then he could get away with actually killing his parishioners for not tithing. In case any of you have never heard it, here is a link to one of Dollar’s sermons on shooting non-tithers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLsDNxZcOa8

Edward wrote:

“They will conduct their own investigations,” explained Rowe. “They will conduct their own security. They will make their own arrests”.
I can’t wrap my brain around the fact that a Representative would cite these facts as POSITIVES.

A large swath of American Christianity is under a delusional spell.

Dew wrote:

MidwesternEasterner wrote:
Why don’t they just declare themselves an independent country (the Vatican did it!) and see what happens.
Hey, Constantine gave the Pope that land! See Donation of Constantine.

That document has since been proven to be a forgery. Read this link.
http://www.christian-history.org/donation-of-constantine.html

Velour wrote:

That for many whites the rise of private Christian schools was to avoid integration. I agree.

That did happen, and I believe the motives were mixed. I think that for some whites it was in part to avoid the violence which accompanied integration in many places.

The only two catholic schools in our town were established during that period, one in 1953 and one in 1954, and one variable may have been anticipation of the violence resulting from Brown v Board of Education (argued in 1952 and decided in 1954). Incidentally, one of those catholic schools says that it was established because of an influx of people from the north who were here for jobs. So, north vs south may also have played a part locally. Perhaps the yankees wanted nothing to do with us and our now integrated schools, for whatever reason.

But also the two baptist schools from that era were founded between 1950 and 1954. So, how could we ever know who among those had which motives? But I do want to say this, when pots start judging kettles from decades ago perhaps the current issue is not just schools but also religious bias. Surely not. Who would ever judge others in that manner?

Personally, I was alive during that era. I graduated high school in 1952. I have no criticisms for anybody who created safe places for their children regardless of whether their reasons were religion or safety or groundless fear; or even if it contained an element of north vs south or even catholic vs protestant. The children should not have to bear the brunt of the adult’s issues.

okrapod wrote:

I have no criticisms for anybody who created safe places for their children regardless of whether their reasons were religion or safety or groundless fear; or even if it contained an element of north vs south or even catholic vs protestant. The children should not have to bear the brunt of the adult’s issues

It is nice, however, that we have evolved (and are still evolving) so that children of all backgrounds can get an education together.

A little boy (a neighbor’s son) and I were talking about Martin Luther King, Jr. Day.
He is in the first grade. He is of Asian descent and his dark-skinned. I gently told him that dark children and light children weren’t permitted to mix in school like they are now. He was shocked!

@ okrapod:

In my city as long as I can remember there have been many Catholic schools. There were probably 20 or so within the county when I was a kid. Back then, You had to be Catholic to attend. When busing was implemented in the 70’s that rule was changed and they grew even more consolidating some schools and many became the schools for elites. Right now, off the top of my head, I can name off 5 expensive elite Catholic high schools.

Our district is huge and busing since the 70’s to allocate population percentages in each school means many children are on a school bus 3-4 hours per day going across county. That means unless mom can pick you up, no after school activities. It is especially hard on sports programs that do provide buses after school but not to games. Kids who could walk to school are spending hours daily on buses. Now the buses are a huge disciplinary issue and they can’t ever find enough drivers so constant delays are a huge problem.

The big issue here is time on the school bus, daily. Those who could afford it when busing started moved out of county. More secular and religious private schools sprang up, too.

The irony of this issue all these years later (busing still exists in a clever renaming of “clusters” after the Supreme Court verdict back around 2007) is that 7 African American pastors here are pummeling the governor (in a good way) about charter schools. They are demanding that things have to change and they see public schools as they are now as the worst alternative for those they represent.

Some could say it was racist not to want your kid on a bus for 3 hours per day across the county. Well, actually many did call it racist. That is how it works. That is how social engineering works. You shame people and insult them in order to micromanage their lives and make them good people according to the current definition of good. . There are few parents of any ethnic or origin, who want their kids shuffled around that way. Yet, it was the wealthy who put their kids in private Catholic schools within the county because they don’t do scholarships for poor people in house as some of the other private schools do.

When the national school choice people came around with scholarships and grants, there were tons of poor working class African Americans applying. I had no idea how deep the issue went until I saw those lines.

Things are often not what they seem or how the headlines proclaim them.

Velour wrote:

He is in the first grade. He is of Asian descent and his dark-skinned. I gently told him that dark children and light children weren’t permitted to mix in school like they are now.

I don’t know about California, but where I lived in Kentucky he would have gone to the white school as would Latinos and others. The issue was not skin color but rather whether or not one had African ancestry. And there were formulas to figure out what percentage African somebody was. If you were defined as African you went to the black school even if you were white enough to ‘pass’. And if you were darker in skin color but not African you went to the white school.

Here is a link about how that would have been in Alabama in 1950.

https://www.quora.com/Civil-Rights-If-I-were-an-Asian-kid-in-the-1950s-living-in-Alabama-what-school-would-I-go-to

Lydia wrote:

In my city as long as I can remember there have been many Catholic schools. There were probably 20 or so within the county when I was a kid. Back then, You had to be Catholic to attend.

Yes, and it was those kids who got thrown in our face by the public school as the coming dreaded competition (catholic schools went through 8th grade only) who were going to make all of us ashamed of our pitiful level of achievement as soon as we all got to high school–or something. So I took an extra language in high school (Latin) so that the catholic kids did not get ahead of me. But here is the thing, we learned the pronunciation of Latin from the classical period and they learned the later pronunciation which is now called ecclesiastical Latin. And our church is increasingly prone to lapse into a wee bit of ecclesiastical Latin on occasion.

Arrgh. They knew something I did not. But then, I knew something that they did not. But wait. Today we start Latin class at St. Ts in which some of us are going to add ecclesiastical latin pronunciation to our residual meager memories from long ago. So I comfort myself that they are still not getting ahead of me because I will too will know 47 ways from Sunday as to when the letter g is pronounced which way, or not. Har hardee har har. Nah Nanny Boo Boo.

A little competition never hurt anybody.

@ okrapod:
In the 60’s, I attended public elementary school with African Americans in Louisville. My much older brother attended attended public schools with African Americans. His BFF from HS football days (grad 1963) is AA and still is.

As to Briarwood, many mega churches courted law enforcement long ago. The thinking was anytime you have a lot of people in a concentrated area you need security. Many off duty police hired and paid well to direct traffic and some in plain clothes to perform sort of bodyguard type duties for the ministry elites on the weekends. This spilled over into plain clothes planted around the arena (sanctuary) to quell or prevent potential problems. These relationships grew into proportions that make me extremely uncomfortable. Here, one big very popular mega church pastor has a son who is the media spokesman for the metro police. That relationship started when the son was very young. Can you imagine trying to report a sexual molestation by a ministry person to the authorities in these situations?

The concept of private security is everywhere. Big companies, colleges, etc. And they often have very close relationships with law enforcement. I think it is going to get worse. In a day and time some want to burn your business down or obstruct entrances because they disagree and that is considered “free speech”, people are going to take drastic measures for security.

As to churches, especially Calvinist ones like Briarwood, I have to ask, Isn’t God in control of whatever happens?

@ Velour:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/09/families-flee-san-francisco_n_1335639.html

@ Lydia:

I graduated high school in 1952. When I got to U of L in that fall the school had already shut down Municipal College (the black college) and integrated Belknap campus a year or two before. I don’t remember race being much of an issue until a few years later. A larger issue was concern that so many females had listed as pre-med. They even had us all at a meeting about the wisdom or lack of it for that to be the case.

@ okrapod:
I don’t doubt it! My mom knew a few female doctors but they were all missionaries. I don’t know where they attended medical school, though. I was too young to ask such questions. Evidently, back then it was ok for females to doctor if foreign males in third world countries. :o)

We are so blessed times have changed for women in the professions. Call me out on inequality but I prefer female doctors for certain things. My female OB with 4 kids kept telling me they don’t come with manuals. :o)

@ Erp:

I am speechless. Who would ever have thought that the episcopalians constituted such a threat to law and order? You just never know any more.

Lydia wrote:

That is how social engineering works. You shame people and insult them in order to micromanage their lives and make them good people according to the current definition of good.

This is what I was likely reacting to last night. The growth of private and religious schools is across the country and transcends busing or race. It is also no longer a choice of “the wealthy”. Something is going on that middle and even lower income people will forgo the free public schools to pay for the service elsewhere. It should be a huge question mark for public schools that have much greater resources.

Instead those who choose private schools are labeled racist or elitist and those who home school are closet abusers. We are in a culture that is driven by a media that is increasingly hostile to the concerns of much of the country and is is difficult to separate the propaganda from the conventional wisdom.

Bill M wrote:

Instead those who choose private schools are labeled racist or elitist and those who home school are closet abusers. We are in a culture that is driven by a media that is increasingly hostile to the concerns of much of the country and is is difficult to separate the propaganda from the conventional wisdom.

Bill: I am curious as to what media you are referencing in your statement?

@ siteseer:
Oh there are drugs in private high schools, for sure. We have a huge heroin epidemic here that crosses all social economic lines. As to the other, several incidents have surfaced and there were convictions as they are not immune. But the culture of secrecy is also in public school administration. It took years and years for the public school system here to be caught with an “inside” reporting system of the bad stuff while they “complied” with the mandatory “outside” system that went to state government, very carefully. The difference of incidents were in the thousands kept from state government. But there are no punishments for the folks who implemented these things. So, there is a trust problem everywhere. And, local law enforcement is in almost every public school so the disconnect is really big. Everyone wants to report the good numbers and keep the bad stuff from the paying public.

For Lydia,

The U.S. Supreme Court case: https://www.oyez.org/cases/1940-1955/347us483

@ Lydia

I too believe that the grand social engineering schemes (busing in particular) concocted by Washington bureaucrats have been abysmal failures.
I also believe that responsible and forward thinking parents of any race want their kids to obtain a high quality education and that this desire has absolutely nothing to do with the racial makeup of the schools their children attend.

My phone has somehow been blocked as spam on this site so switching to husband’s phone

Anyways, this is a terrible idea. Churches cannot be trusted with this. They can’t even police themselves and hold themselves accountable for anything.

I found out last night that my 86 year old grandmother was handled, fondled and kissed while playing the organ at church a couple of weeks ago. She just now got the courage to confess to my mom. The church told her the man meant it innocently. I am now mentally a “done.”

@ Velour:
? Not sure what I should clean from this. Do you honestly think I don’t believe in equal education? Our county has one district with one tax base allocated for public education. That was not the issue for busing back in the 70’s. Now the school district is going backwards and actually implementing race based schools.

@ Christiane:
Typical tuition for Catholic school here is 13-14 thousand per year. Books and school fees not included. And they are some of the best schools in the county.

Velour wrote:

Why should black children from the “other side of the tracks” be consigned to second-rate or third-rate schools based on their color.

I was in Junior High in a major Midwest city during bussing. The children bussed to inner cities and the children bussed to the suberbs hated it.

@ Muff Potter:

My liberal brethren and my progressive sisters would have me run out of town on a rail for that one. That’s the price of being a free-thinker and in lockstep with none.

@ Lydia:
I can say that those who sacrifice to educate their children privately are no strangers to economy ….. consignment stores and thrift shops and garage sales and estate sales are the norm, not exception; cheaper cuts of meat challenge cooking skills, yes, but no one notices if the meal is well-prepared with care; libraries instead of book stores; farmers’ markets and dairies instead of supermarkets; and ‘use it up and wear it out’, is honored for its practicality. Living simply makes a difference, and if that difference is a service to a child’s future, then I would say it was worth it.

I wonder: if people sit down today and calculate just how much INTEREST they are paying on what they owe ….. they would find it amounts to more than the cost of a parochial education, yes.

Our values and priorities determine the way we live, not the reverse. Or at least, that is the ‘better way’, is it not?

@ Christiane:
And how would that work for a working class single mom?

@ Lydia:

Lydia, things are changing. When I was a girl, most of our teachers were nuns. When my daughter came along, many of her teachers were lay teachers ….. the nuns provided a chance for the Church to educated more children at less cost, yes.

Today, to attend the regional Catholic high school in our area is prohibitively too expensive for someone like the lady I get to do my hair once a year …. she wants to send her son but she is a single mother whose ex-husband does not contribute to his care, and not even her extended family can raise the monies needed. I understand these changes have come.

I hope for things to change back to the point where Catholic education was ‘the norm’ for a child of the faith, but I don’t see it happening unless there is a whole revamping of how it is to be paid for at today’s costs. Not good.

I keep close to me my father’s story of my Memere’s bleeding, chapped fingers when I think about what we gave up for our children. When you have that vivid of an example of sacrificing for the education of children as an inheritance, you owe something ‘forward’ was my belief. Sometimes things are pre-determined in families like mine.

Nancy2 wrote:

I have had parents, coaches, and athletic directors come to me and try to get me to give a free passing grade athletes who had done zero class work for the grading period (when I passed out tests they threw them in the trash can) – if they’d just sweep the classroom floor each day for a week. No way. If the athletes refuse to do anything in class, they can fail the grade and sit on the bench the following year, for all I care!

Bravo, good for you. That kind of pressure from coaches and parents is a betrayal of their children, not a help.

I know about this type of pressure. I didn’t cave either. I was called into ‘meetings’, but I didn’t cave, I just told the truth and had the documentation, as well as all the notes and phone call entries to try to get the children extra help after school ….. very few ever took advantage, and the parents didn’t care …..

in the end, for many of those kids, I may have been the only one who really cared …. and I think you also would have stood your ground against the pressure for the same reason.

@ Christiane:
By whom?

@ Nancy2:
Good for you! And districts remain admin top heavy with high salaries. The PR/communication people in this public district make 5x more than a seasoned teacher. Teachers get the brunt of all the problems, imo.

Christiane wrote:

As for HUG, I will speak for him as a bringer of light (and wit, and humor) into areas where it is always better to light a candle than to curse the darkness. Like I said, I’m a fan.

That’s because we’re both ROMISH.
(You know, praying to dead people and Mary instead of Jesus?)

Darlene wrote:

Hmmm….I think the Dominionists, i.e. – Reconstructionists, are just beginning to come out of the woodwork in increasing numbers. If this legislation is passed, the Reconstuctionist Movement could become quite popular within evangelicalism.

As one commenter at Homeschoolers Anonymous put it:

“Goodbye, United States of America.
Hello, Republic of Gilead.”

The worst kind of brutality is that which has been given a theological veneer.

“Nothing’s worse than a monster who thinks he’s right with God.”
— Captain Mal “Tightpants” Reynolds, Free Trader Serenity
(Yes there is, Captain. A Monster who KNOWS He’s Right with God.)

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
a joyful inordinate illogical ability to laugh at ourselves ….. where does THAT come from 🙂 it wouldn’t be the same without the joy, would it???

okrapod wrote:

The issue was not skin color but rather whether or not one had African ancestry. And there were formulas to figure out what percentage African somebody was.

Did they use the formulas from slavery days?
Griffe = 3/4 black, 1/4 white
Mulatto = 1/2 black, 1/2 white (also used as a generic term for mixed-race)
Quadroon = 1/4 black, 3/4 white
Octoroon = 1/8 black, 7/8 white
Plus the one-drop rule, where ANY black ancestry at all = black.

But that’s not how far it’s gone in history:

The Nazis’ Blood Purity boys cut off Mischling (“mixture”) at 1/16 inferior blood (with classification based on whether the inferior blood came from the mother or father); 1/32 Untermensch, no problem.

But French-Colonial Haiti was the strictest, rating race on steps of 1/128 black. 1/128 more white bestowed race superiority over those 1/128 less. And after the Haitian Revolution, Negritude flipped the colors so 1/128 more BLACK bestowed race superiority.

Lydia wrote:

The concept of private security is everywhere. Big companies, colleges, etc. And they often have very close relationships with law enforcement. I think it is going to get worse. In a day and time some want to burn your business down or obstruct entrances because they disagree and that is considered “free speech”, people are going to take drastic measures for security.

Ever heard of Blackwater in Iraq?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academi
“Vive le Mort, Vive le Guerre, Vive le Sacre Mercenaire…”

Velour wrote:

I was surprised to find out that my classmate’s home had an outhouse and wasn’t plumbed for a bathroom and city sewage. I remember that being my first real shock about the difference between whites and blacks in our community.

must have been like when I was eight years old and we went through the Panama Canal and my father took us out to eat in Panama at a restaurant …. on the way, we saw children and a donkey and the children were dirty and in rags and I had never seen this before … not even shoes on their feet …
but it was their eyes …. you don’t forget, no

@ Christiane: Yes. These teenagers think they’re going to get a free ride through college and be big sports stars, make billions. They’re not as good at the sports as they think they are. They aren’t allowed play in college because of low grades and end up dropping out, dealing drugs……. then jail.
If a student was really trying, well behaved, and just a percentage point or two shy of making the grade, I would give it to them.
@ Lydia: The school district (Christan county) I worked in before I went to the private school change discipline rules 3 years ago. Minorities are now allowed to get away with more because of “cultural differences”. The BoE is now running ads in the paper for both full time school teachers and substitutes.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/california-is-a-nation-not-a-state-a-fringe-movement-wants-a-break-from-the-us/2017/02/18/ed85671c-f567-11e6-8d72-263470bf0401_story.html?utm_term=.b8f834c0b183

mot wrote:

I am curious as to what media you are referencing in your statement?

It is off subject so I’ll comment over on the Open Discussion.

Velour wrote:

I was surprised to find out that my classmate’s home had an outhouse and wasn’t plumbed for a bathroom and city sewage. I remember that being my first real shock about the difference between whites and blacks in our community.

You and your area sound more prosperous than we were. We were close in rural but not actually in the city. At my house we did not have city water or city sewer but we did have indoor plumbing with a well and a septic tank. There were relatives on one side of the family who still used an outhouse and the only indoor water was a hand pump at the kitchen sink which pumped from the well. The elementary school where I was did not have indoor potty facilities for the elementary grades. There was a really big outhouse with a partition down the middle and girls on one side and boys on the other. There were something like 6 or 8 holes on each side. The elementary students were all in ‘portables’ which of course were not portable. And some of my classmates lived in houses heated with a Warm Morning Stove. I had no idea at the time that there was anything wrong with any of that.

Meanwhile at home my Dad tried to teach me how to think like a lawyer (he failed) how to speak a wee bit of German (not much progress there) and how to argue some points of theology from scripture (alas). My point being, life is not all about potties and some old coal furnace like we had. I know you did not even suggest that, I am just thinking out loud.

I did not care about the potties, never thought about it in fact. But I was determined to mop the academic floor with the first catholic kid I could find after all that harassment from teachers about how great the catholic schools were.

okrapod wrote:

But I was determined to mop the academic floor with the first catholic kid I could find after all that harassment from teachers about how great the catholic schools were

LOL!

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Which would have fanned a flame of Resentment and Hostility towards the Catholic school kids.

Yes. You could say that. So I understand how people can oppose and resent the whole private or religious school idea.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Some of the “bone-headed things” we did back then would have us up on hate crime or sexual harassment charges if done today.

Yes, nooses and swastikas definitely get teens into hot water now. But they are warned in advance not to do those things; I was never specifically warned against this.

My impression of our local teens is that they now put the shocking/rude stuff on private social media, often with a link that has a content warning. For the most part this is their idea of humor or pop culture, rather than extremist or criminal content.

Their public social media, and actual activities, tend to be more acceptable. School administrators patrol this stuff aggressively. Participation policies for extracurricular activities include social media as part of personal conduct. This is mostly good… but it sometimes leads to, say, a swimmer getting reprimanded for posting on personal Twitter that the swim team is going to lose in tonight’s meet. School policies say that students are allowed to express their feelings,but they are not allowed to make disparaging comments. Lest you think this is political correctness gone wild, in practice it’s a crucial opportunity for teens to learn what they can and cannot say, and how they should react to a challenge by an authority figure. Good practice for the workplace.

Friend wrote:

My impression of our local teens is that they now put the shocking/rude stuff on private social media, often with a link that has a content warning. For the most part this is their idea of humor or pop culture, rather than extremist or criminal content.

Like I said above, Bart Simpson Syndrome.

Nancy2 wrote:

@ Lydia: The school district (Christan county) I worked in before I went to the private school change discipline rules 3 years ago. Minorities are now allowed to get away with more because of “cultural differences”.

Another weapon handed to White Supremacists.

Some years ago I coined the term “Self-Defense White Supremacy”, motivated not by any race superiority BS, but the practical motive of “If we don’t stomp them down, they’re gonna stomp us down!” Zero Sum Game, Us or Them. Welcome to Rwanda.

Lydi wrote:

It took years and years for the public school system here to be caught with an “inside” reporting system of the bad stuff while they “complied” with the mandatory “outside” system that went to state government, very carefully.

That’s awful. I can’t imagine it happening where I live, though. When a kid gets into trouble in our high schools, there is a ton of official documentation: phone calls, emails, official letters, meetings, restorative justice sessions, electronic notations in the student’s file, etc. Some cases go through two separate disciplinary channels (admin and court) and drag on for months. And this is for fairly minor things, like graffiti on a school wall. Consequences for, say, drugs on school property are unmistakable.

Schools have more leverage over kids than we might tend to assume. No kid wants to be banned from after-school activities for 30 days. The big one is banning seniors from attending their own graduation ceremony. This threat leads to angelic behavior on prom night. 😉

Lydia wrote:

Is nothing safe? I am at an Episcopalian church for a recital. Big picture poster in narnex: An Evening with AL Mohler.

You are being tormented, dear Lydia. Why would a respectable Episcopalian want to spend “An Evening with Al Mohler”?!! I know some traditional Southern Baptists who would dearly love to have an evening with him! ;^)

@ Darlene:
Frightening.

@ I fear a cage:
Unreal.

So, so sorry this happened to your grandmother. My heart goes out to her.

During a summer family visit with friends in another town, we attended church together. The matriarch, my girlfriend, whispered to me that there had been complaints about the usher fondling the teenage girls, as he was passing the plate to our aisle. She didn’t know what they were going to do about it. Very strange. “Report him,” I said. “Let the law handle it – they’ll know what to do.”

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

In rural areas, shooting up mailboxes and street signs at night is almost a varsity team sport. I’m sure there’s a Jeff Foxworthy bit about it somewhere.

I can believe it.

@ okrapod:
From the link you provide: “… a friend told me last week that when he was visiting in a southern US Episcopal diocese, he was asked if he was a full 5-point Calvinist or not, with the implication given that if he wasn’t, then he wasn’t a full Christian.”

Sadly, the new reformers think this way. New Calvinists truly believe that they have come into the world for such a time as this to restore the gospel to the church that the rest of us have lost! Spurred forward by Mohler et al., a multitude of YRRs have been released in the Southern Baptist Convention to plant new churches and take over traditional ones, replacing “whosoever will” with the predestined elect as quickly as they can. They are passionate about their cause to the point of militancy.

siteseer wrote:

I fear a cage wrote:

I found out last night that my 86 year old grandmother was handled, fondled and kissed while playing the organ at church a couple of weeks ago. She just now got the courage to confess to my mom. The church told her the man meant it innocently. I am now mentally a “done.”

I thought nothing would surprise me anymore but there’s always something new. How is she doing?

It has shaken her badly and affected her touchy heart. What made it worse was that it happened in the church she and my grandpa built up and pastored for 40 years. My grandpa died two years ago but she has been trying to stay faithful and support the new leadership. But her own precious church (and the church I grew up in) is no longer a safe place. 🙁 She has made a fuss and is demanding the church kick the perv out. And if they don’t she will leave. Unfortunately we cannot convince her to press charges. She is afraid that it will cause the world to harshly criticize the church. She’s very old school about that, sadly.

@ I fear a cage:
I am glad she made a fuss, though! Good for her.

Beloved Son wrote:

Is this $299 per credit or class or does the whole degree cost $299. Because if it is the latter; sign me up so I can get a Ph.D too.

I’ll sell you one for $149. I can even print it on real parchment, although the frame will be extra.

Lydia wrote:

Hee hee. His 45x 22 in living color head shot was close to the sign up sheet for the Ladies wine tasting party.

Like the cinematographic composition in Enemy at the Gates, where in all the Russian scenes you are never out-of-sight of a larger-than-life picture of Comrade Stalin. (This Stalin-era shtick was Orwell’s inspiration for “Big Brother is Watching You”.)

Max wrote:

a multitude of YRRs have been released in the Southern Baptist Convention to plant new churches and take over traditional ones, replacing “whosoever will” with the predestined elect as quickly as they can. They are passionate about their cause to the point of militancy.

Sixty-seventy years ago, it would have been Communism instead of Calvinism.
Same youthful enthusiasm, same determinism, same passion, same militancy, different words in the Party Line.

I fear a cage wrote:

Unfortunately we cannot convince her to press charges. She is afraid that it will cause the world to harshly criticize the church. She’s very old school about that, sadly.

Actually, a lot of people feel the same way. It is difficult, particularly if a person doesn’t feel support of the community. As a victim, it feels like being targeted a second time.

okrapod wrote:

but what in blazes is the attraction in calvinism?

The angry part of me sees this “attraction” as utterly sick and insane and despicable: They’re taking pleasure in a “God” who designs a whole group of people just to torture them forever.

Churches hiring their own police sounds like another reason to quit treating churches as special non-profits. If they had to pay local property taxes like any other non-profit, the taxes that support the local police, they would no longer have the money to waste on hiring their own.

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
thing is, HUG, that much of public school admin and faculty is a powerful force for good …. it’s just that the resources don’t cover the need enough to serve all of the children as they deserve to be served …. but what I noticed working in the public school system is that, in spite of everything, when a teacher was ‘on fire’ then her students would learn…..

I think when you contrast, compare private, parochial, and public education, in the end it may honestly come down to the strength of the individual teacher …. you have MANY great teachers in the public school system …. these individuals are the real heroes in my book and they are unsung, but these gifted people of great character are a blessing, especially to children whose situations are not optimum, yes

MidwesternEasterner wrote:

JYJames wrote:

I fear a cage wrote:

Unfortunately we cannot convince her to press charges. She is afraid that it will cause the world to harshly criticize the church. She’s very old school about that, sadly.

Actually, a lot of people feel the same way. It is difficult, particularly if a person doesn’t feel support of the community. As a victim, it feels like being targeted a second time.

In this case it seems like this particular church DESERVES to be harshly criticized by the world.

Indeed. Especially since leadership was warned about the perv beforehand.

And in other news: the scheduled keynote speaker at the next CPAC thinks that, um, “priest-on-boy” is just fabulous!

http://uproxx.com/news/milo-yiannopoulos-defend-pedophilia/

okrapod wrote:

what in blazes is the attraction in calvinism?

Let Dr. Mohler explain it to you:

“Where else are they going to go? If you’re a theological minded, deeply convictional young evangelical, if you’re committed to the gospel and want to see the nations rejoice in the name of Christ, if you want to see gospel built and structured committed churches, your theology is just going to end up basically being Reformed, basically something like this New Calvinism, or you’re going to have to invent some label for what is basically going to be the same thing, there just are not options out there, and that’s something that frustrates some people, but when I’m asked about the New Calvinism — where else are they going to go, who else is going to answer the questions, where else are they going to find the resources they are going to need and where else are they going to connect. This is a generation that understands, they want to say the same thing that Paul said, they want to stand with the apostles, they want to stand with old dead people, and they know that they are going to have to, if they are going to preach and teach the truth.” (Dr. Albert Mohler, President of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary)

Where else are they going to go?! There are no options out there?!! Only New Calvinists preach and teach truth?!

With this charge to the young reformers, Dr. Mohler slammed the millions of non-Calvinist Southern Baptists who pay his salary! And he got away with it! It’s the darnedest thing I’ve ever seen!

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/utah-republican-argues-against-equal-pay-for-women-it’s-‘bad-for-families’-and-society/ar-AAn6hyH?OCID=ansmsnnews11

Max wrote:

Whew! Mr. Green may have to get his own police department to protect him from all the women he has stirred up!

I was widowed as a young mother …… sole support for my child for a while. There are a lot of single mothers out there, single for various reasons ……… our own Shauna, for example.
I guess equal pay is really bad for families in situations like that!

Nancy2 wrote:

https://briarwood.org/webstore/product/christian-manhood-illustrated/

Wow. That’s…interesting.

I haven’t gotten through comments yet, but I think a police force beholden to the interests of an institution is not a good model. They mentioned schools, but they’ve had problems with schools policing themselves too. I really think private security should be required in these instances.

If Briarwood get’s their own police department that performs internal investigations, hope they do better than Baylor University.

@ Muff Potter:
It’s been that way here for almost a decade. It has not helped children.

Nancy2 wrote:

FW Rez wrote:

Posted a link in open discussion to an article concerning Prestonwood withholding funds from SBC Cooperative Program that will be of interest to several of you here.

Saw that on both SBCVvoices and SBCToday. Boo hoo.

Nancy2 it sure would be interesting if enough of the Mega churches in the SBC withheld money from the Cooperative Program.

MidwesternEasterner wrote:

The suspects, who are accused of keeping a woman prisoner and raping her, say they want to cite the Bible in court as their defense; they call it the “only law book that matters” and cryptically referred to “strategies” they learned from scripture. Ordinary Christians don’t go around calling the Bible a “strategy” book.

Both suspects are white and the alleged victim is black, so I wonder if the “curse of Ham” argument is going to enter into their defense somehow. Sick, sick.

This trial sounds like it could get “Interesting”.
Can one of us here monitor it and pass on the developments?

And Judge Tim? From your experience, what would happen in your courtroom if someone tried this defense? And do you have any ideas on how this could go?

Other than “Anyone representing himself has a fool for an attorney”?

MidwesternEasterner wrote:

Both suspects are white and the alleged victim is black, so I wonder if the “curse of Ham” argument is going to enter into their defense somehow. Sick, sick.
All I can say is that if these suspects had been Muslims trying to cite the Quran, the president would probably have tweeted about it millions of times by now and it’d be all over social media. As it happens, no one seems to care.

People did care, and these guys had the book thrown at them. The were allowed to bring their Bibles, but prevented from using them as law books. Their strategy exposed them as the “most depraved, demented, evil people” the judge had ever seen. The jury was mostly white and mostly male,btw.

http://www.toledoblade.com/Courts/2017/01/28/Ciboros-found-guilty-on-all-counts.html

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
🙂

@ GSD:
In Judaism, it is said that God is sovereign AND that He also permits choice.

I am sure that He can take our mis-steps and fumbles and make something out of them that works eventually for our good …… how this happens is not always clear, but I do know two things:

1. we have been given a freedom of choice upon which much depends
2. when we fall because of our choices, God does not abandon us without help or hope

this is not the neo-Cal teaching, I know, but they seem to need ‘assurance’ because they are not comfortable with trusting Our Lord’s mercy;
it’s that ‘God of Wrath’ teaching that has ruined trusting in Him for them, and that is very, very sad

GSD wrote:

It’s a good question, about the appeal of Calvinism.

And then there are plenty of sincere Christians like me who got ensnared in NeoCalvinism, when we were simply looking for a solid church to go to. I refer to NeoCalvinism as Spiritual Carbon Monoxide Poisoning. It’s subtle and can knock a person out in no time.

Then there are many others I knew at my ex-church who were raised in abusive families with some kind of major problem (like alcoholism, sexual abuse, etc.). NeoCalvinism is “home” for them and just as abusive as their upbringings. They don’t know any better. It “fits” in its own abusive, dysfunctional way. Like a woman who keeps choosing bad men to date.

I knew many people who had no concept of boundaries at my ex-church, and who were afraid to make their own decisions. They craved the structure of NeoCalvinism and were afraid of mystery.

Of course there are arrogant people in NeoCalvinism. They don’t seem to have ever encountered the true Gospel and been humbled by it.

okrapod wrote:

@ Max:
All God’s children got real problems with this and it is getting worse. Along comes the grinch that stole the church and they think he’s santa clause. I can understand how people can just fall into lethargy or burnout or hopelessness and drift away, or get hurt and flee for safety, or run up on problems that look unsolvable and give up, but what in blazes is the attraction in calvinism?

Good question, Okrapod. Just what in the blazes IS the attraction to Calvinism? I have discussions with Calvinists often on a Facebook site. Recently, one of the Calvinist fellas stated one of his beliefs (as though it were a thing to be proud of) which went like this: “If God didn’t choose you, you’re going to be in hell and there’s nothing you can do about it.” Can you just feel the love? I responded, “Ah…such Good News. Make sure that you let folks know that when you’re evangelizing.” I just don’t get why anyone would want to be a Calvinist. I Really Don’t.

Debi Calvet wrote:

okrapod wrote:
but what in blazes is the attraction in calvinism?
The angry part of me sees this “attraction” as utterly sick and insane and despicable: They’re taking pleasure in a “God” who designs a whole group of people just to torture them forever.

And they defend their god with unmitigated zeal.

I fear a cage wrote:

She has made a fuss and is demanding the church kick the perv out. And if they don’t she will leave.

How terrible! I hope they do kick him out.

GSD wrote:

It might be a different question to ask what draws people to the authoritarianism and exclusivism of Neo-Calvinism.

The Lure of the Inner Ring.

Illuminati who alone Have God All Figured Out.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Talk about a defense witness backfire…

But then, anyone who represents himself in court has a fool for an attorney.

Agreed. To relate this to the topic of Briarwood, things could backfire for the future church police too. The leaders should not assume that their closed system is either closed or perfect.

GSD wrote:

It’s a good question, about the appeal of Calvinism. I think the idea of meticulous providence can appeal to people who are insecure about their safety in a world full of pain and danger. Chanting “God is in Control.” can make a person feel better, that all of this mess is somehow working toward a larger, better purpose, and God is in the wings, behind the curtain, pulling the strings, so it’s all actually good.

This is what I’ve seen. I am sometimes amazed at the convoluted reasoning people come up with to put the things that happen to them in a “good” light and make them fit the narrative.

But it seems like the appeal is that it seems to have all the answers, in a confusing and uncertain world.

I’ve noticed that friends who were never Calvinists, per se, using very Calvinistic ways of looking at things and reasoning lately. I think that people are picking it up from all the books and speakers without even realizing it. I have one friend who’s always been staunchly Arminian/free will and even she is saying stuff about sovereignty and God being in control and how horrible we are and don’t deserve anything but hell anyway…

And there are those who simply believe that this is what Scripture says. They don’t have it all worked out, they may not even like some parts of it, but the book says what it says.

There are passages of the Bible that do seem to say this.

Personally, I can’t say, “God is in control.” anymore. I have trouble believing in the God of Control.

Nor can I. Of course when you’re watching your soulmate slowly die of intensely painful cancer, it’s very difficult to find comfort in this perspective. I think, to me, the control is more big picture; not that he is purposely causing every little detail of agony one goes through but that in the overarching purposes of God, he has provided something better after we’ve born the suffering this world, by its nature, entails: “These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world.” “In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.” Nothing can separate us from the love of Christ- I am not so sure what that means but I trust I will know someday.

siteseer wrote:

There are passages of the Bible that do seem to say this.

Yes. Going to an old school Calvinist church, I do see where its coming from now. But there are other passages too. People try to figure things out and make it all fit and I think we just plain don’t know how it all works.

Christiane wrote:

the beginnings of ‘Dominionism’????

“C”hristian Sharia law.

PEARL wrote:

From reading and listening to people who have escaped from these communities. If you’re being abused and escape they will bring you back to you abusers.

Scientology Blow Drill.

They even have church members who work in the hospitals. In one group the entire city council was comprised of the church’s members.

Is that anything like the “Ten Christian Men” government of Christian Reconstructionist/Dominionist literature?