“My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust?” ― C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity link
Today we offer 4 smaller posts.
Thom Rainer gets pushback on using the word *affair* to describe a pastor's relationship with a woman outside of marriage.
When the pastor has an affair by Thom Rainer
Read his post and see who he forgets to mention. Here is a couple of screen shots of responses.
From Sheila
Mary Jo Nowroyta said
Clayton Jennings, after having sex with many young women, has decided that bloggers are the problem.
Clayton Jennings performs a self-aggrandizing party pitying ode to his ego: Pulpit and Pen
Clayton Jennings was recently exposed by Polemics Report for extreme levels of promiscuity that occurred throughout nearly the entire course of his public ministry. Young women brought forth evidence of Jennings’ misdeeds. Some brought forth evidence of Jennings grooming of them with talks of God and marriage, his attempts to get them drunk and commit fornication, giving them the abortion pill, and covering up the sin for the sake of “Jesus” and his “ministry.”
…the elders at Harbor Shores Church (his church) revoked his ministry license
Jennings apparently intends. to return to the circuit during 2017 and has released a video which channels Steven Furtick's infamous Hey Haters.
Todd Wilhelm takes a look at abuse in English boarding school, quoting CS Lewis and Christopher Hitchens
C.S. Lewis & Christopher Hitchens On Abuse in Boarding Schools
As the John Smyth abuse situation heats up and more information appears to be in the offing in regards to allegations of what his son, new pastor PJ Smyth of Covenant Life Church, knew or experienced, an understanding of English boarding schools and the scandals surrounding them are in order.
Here is what Christopher Hitches had to say.
During my infancy in Scotland I had had to be taken away from one school, with the forbidding name of Inchkeith, when it had been noticed at home that I cowered and flung up a protective arm every time an adult male came near me. Investigation showed the place to be a minor hell of flagellation and “abuse” (such a pathetic euphemism for the real thing) so I was taken away and put in a nearer establishment named Camdean. On my first day there I was hit between the eyes with a piece of slate during an exchange of views with the Catholic school across the road, with whom our hardened Protestant gangs were at odds. Innocent of any interest in this quarrel, I nonetheless bear the faint scar of it, above the bridge of my nose, to this day.
C S Lewis recalled the following.
I myself was rather a pet or mascot of Oldie’s— a position which I swear I never sought and of which the advantages were purely negative. Even my brother was not one of his favorite victims. For he had his favorite victims, boys who could do nothing right. I have known Oldie enter the schoolroom after breakfast, cast his eyes round, and remark, “Oh, there you are, Rees, you horrid boy. If I’m not too tired I shall give you a good drubbing this afternoon.” He was not angry, nor was he joking.
He was a big, bearded man with full Ups like an Assyrian king on a monument, immensely strong, physically dirty. Everyone talks of sadism nowadays but I question whether his cruelty had any erotic element in it. I half divined then, and seem to see clearly now, what all his whipping boys had in common. They were the boys who fell below a certain social status, the boys with vulgar accents.
Poor P.— dear, honest, hard-working, friendly, healthily pious P.— was flogged incessantly, I now think, for one offense only; he was the son of a dentist. I have seen Oldie make that child bend down at one end of the schoolroom and then take a run of the room’s length at each stroke; but P. was the trained sufferer of countless thrashings and no sound escaped him until, toward the end of the torture, there came a noise quite unlike a human utterance. That peculiar croaking or rattling cry, that, and the gray faces of all the other boys, and their deathlike stillness are among the memories I could willingly dispense with.
Denny Hastert sues his abuse victim to pay back the hush money given to him by Hastert.
Dennis Hastert Countersues Assault Victim to Pay Back Hush Money appeared in the Wall Street Journal. TWW posted about the original court trial and allegations in Denny Hastert’s Conviction: DC Politicians, T4G and The Gospel Coalition Look the Same When It Comes to Child Sex Abuse and Why Is Wheaton College’s Attorney and Leadership Defending Denny Hastert? Why Does This Sound Like The Gospel Coalition and CJ Mahaney?
For those who do not know here is the back story from one of our above posts. Hastert made a big deal about his Christian faith while he was Speaker of the House. Dee, back in her La La Days, actually admired him. No longer!
The Huffington Post reported in How Dennis Hastert Demonized Gays as Predators While He Was the True ‘Super-Predator.’
Meanwhile, the true example of a “super-predator” appears to have been former GOP House Speaker Dennis Hastert, a man who prosecutors now say molested at least 4 boys, including a 14-year-old and one who years later took his own life. Since the statute of limitations on those crimes, which took place decades ago, has expired, Hastert will only receive up to six months in jail on charges stemming from bank withdrawals of large sums of cash in violation of federal law, in what prosecutors say was for the purpose of “hush money.”
Worse yet, through the years, as he covered up the sexual assaults he committed as a wrestling coach back in Yorkville, Illinois, Hastert pushed policies and positions as a House member and as the Speaker of a far-right GOP majority from 1999 to 2007 that demonized gays in part by portraying gay men as sexual predators.
“We must continue to be proactive warding off pedophiles and other creeps who want to take advantage of our children,” the Illinois congressman stated in promoting a bill to stop exploitation of children online shortly before he became House Speaker. That was brought to light in a Politico report last year which revealed that Hastert had a file in his office labeled “Homosexuals,” which included the sexual predator smear against gay men
Here is a summary of his conviction from Wikipedia:
In May 2015, Hastert was indicted on federal charges of structuring bank withdrawals to evade bank reporting requirements and making false statements to federal investigators.[3][4] Federal prosecutors said that the money was to compensate for and conceal deliberately unspecified misconduct by Hastert against an unnamed individual years earlier.[5][6][7][8][9] Soon afterward, public accusations emerged that Hastert had sexually abused three male students (including the aforementioned unnamed individual) when he was a teacher more than three decades earlier.[10][11][12][13][14][15]
In October 2015, Hastert entered into a plea agreement with prosecutors. Under the agreement, Hastert pleaded guilty to the "structuring" charge (a felony), and the making false statements charge was dropped.[16] In court submissions on sentencing considerations filed in April 2016, federal prosecutors made allegations of sexual misconduct against Hastert, saying that he had molested at least four boys as young as 14 while he worked as a high school wrestling coach decades earlier.[17] At the sentencing hearing later that month, Hastert admitted under pressure from the judge that he had sexually abused boys.[18] The judge in the case imposed a sentence of fifteen months in prison, two years’ supervised release, and a $250,000 fine.[19][20] Hastert is "one of the highest-ranking politicians in American history to be sentenced to prison."[20] He entered the Federal Medical Center prison in Rochester, Minnesota on June 22, 2016.
It is quite clear that Dennis Hastert is one unrepentant molester. In fact, I believe he is also despicable. According to the Wall Street Journal:
Imprisoned former House Speaker Dennis Hastert wants one of his sexual-abuse victims to return the $1.7 million in hush money the Illinois Republican paid him over several years, according to a court filing this week in a civil case.
The document is a counter claim to the victim’s breach-of-contract lawsuit that he filed last year, arguing that Mr. Hastert owed him $1.8 million, what he said was the unpaid balance of an unwritten $3.5 million hush-money deal.
…Documents in Mr. Hastert’s federal criminal case say he abused the victim—referred to in filings only as “Individual A”—when the victim was 14 in the late 1970s and Mr. Hastert coached wrestling at suburban Chicago’s Yorkville High School.
The Wednesday filing on Mr. Hastert’s behalf in Kendall County Circuit Court asserts the victim was obliged to keep quiet about their deal for the remainder of his life.
“Since Plaintiff breached his obligations…any nonperformance on the part of Defendant [Hastert] is excused,” the filing said. It adds: “Plaintiff’s retention of the $1.7 million is unjust.”
…Federal prosecutors have said Individual A didn’t threaten to expose Mr. Hastert if he didn’t pay, adding they don’t regard the payments as part of an extortion. It was Mr. Hastert, they said, who refused Individual A’s request to bring in lawyers and put the deal in writing.
Prosecutors have also said they would have charged Mr. Hastert with sexual abuse if they could have, but the statute of limitations expired decades ago.
Something to make you smile after all of the sadness above.
Watch a dolphin give birth.
First?
I really understand the growing population of The Dones, believers who no longer go to church because churches are so filled with such serious problems, being both a danger many times to children and adults.
Oh, my. That dolphin giving birth video was beautiful and breathtaking. Such a miracle!
Wow, Clayton really hates haters.
@ Velour:
I think the Dones are done with the evil and the abuse and that’s what they are leaving, and everyone understands that I think.
But for more hopeful people, the idea that evil will take the Church out doesn’t square with Our Lord’s Words ‘the gates of hell shall not prevail against it (My Church)’
perhaps it comes down to what Our Lord meant when He spoke of ‘His Church’ ….. the responses to this are many and varied,
as are the responses to the evil that attacks His Church
‘why persecutests thou Me?’ the Risen Christ asks Saul.
Another part that bothers me about the RT piece is how reconciliation is mentioned without explicitly putting repentance first. That subtly feeds into the lie that divorce is worse than committing adultery.
Plus, I agree that the omission of power dynamics is troubling. It is professional abuse to sleep with a member of the church.
Baby Dolphin Birth 🙂
thanks, Dee, that WAS beautiful
“9”Who among all these does not know That the hand of the LORD has done this, 10In whose hand is the life of every living thing …”
(from the twelfth chapter of the Book of Job)
“Hastert Demonized Gays as Predators While He Was the True ‘Super-Predator.’”
While it may sound strange, beware of preachers who preach with an intense passion ‘against’ something (alcohol, drugs, homosexuality, pornography). It may mean that they are in, rather than out of, one or more those sins. There is a sick (demonic?) psychology at play in their “ministries.” Remember Ted Haggard?
Wow, where to even begin.
The dynamics of the organized church are irresistible to the evil. The politics of “morality” are much the same. People are so easy to fool and manipulate; noobs and simpletons compared to those who act without conscience.
I couldn’t stomach much of the Clayton Jennings rant. Good grief, talk about narcissism.
siteseer wrote:
Which is why Sociopaths WIN.
A neurotypical is limited in his weapons and tactics by rules and conscience.
A sociopath isn’t. In the words of one A.Hitler: “All that matters is to Win!”
Okay. Clayton Jennings …… ha! He sounds like a murdering drug dealer, rapping from a prison cell after he got caught, making excuses for his evil behavior!
I support the use of David’s retaining the throne as a reason for a pastor retaining his position after adultery in all cases in which that pastor has been specifically identified and anointed by the prophet Samuel to be the pastor of the church.
Any pastors who don’t fit that category don’t get to rely on David as an analogy.
The dolphin birth was wonderful.
No fan of Pulpit & Pen, but Clayton Jennings is one of those guys who needs LADIES, KEEP AWAY tattooed to his forehead. If we can’t do that, then Pulpit & Pen is a reasonable alternative.
And I’d definitely recommend people go over to Thou Art The Man and read what C.S. Lewis and Christopher Hitchens had to say about boarding schools for boys. They were not nice places. There’s also “Another Brick in the Wall Part 2” (Pink Floyd) that also talks about getting thrashed in schools.
As for Denny Hastert, good luck on your lawsuit. /sarcasm You’re quite the piece of work.
@ Muslin, fka Dee Holmes:
I, too, was thinking of Pink Floyd’s ‘Another Brick in the Wall.’ “You can’t have any pudding if you don’t eat your meat.”
You know what ticks me off about the Clayton Jennings situation? I think of the people I knew in college or even today…regular boyfriend/girlfriend who take hell from the system for their relationship or when things happen. THEN you have a celebrity pastor who uses his position to influence and force his way on others. You don’t use people and leave them stranded? That is exactly what he does. It blows my mind that regular normal people get hounded and he gets a pass! I have to say that as I age my views of sexuality are changing and I wish evangelicals would recognize and treat sex differently. Its one thing if you have two people consenting. Its another thing when a guy forces himself upon another. That’s what angers me about the Clayton Jennings mess he is using and manipulating people. The system is sick.
My! Clayton Jenning is such an example of Jesus . . . not. That man needs to see a psychiatrist from what I can see from that video. Such hate toward everyone.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I’m afraid HUG has nailed it. We live in a Fallen World.
@ Dave (Eagle):
“I have to say that as I age my views of sexuality are changing and I wish evangelicals would recognize and treat sex differently.”
+++++++++++++++
good grief, yes. Mindlessly checking the “biblical” boxes are what count. love and commitment? pfft. GAH…. studying the bugs on the sap on the trees and missing everything.
How could any woman in the Southern Baptist Convention get a fair hearing about a Pastor having an adulterous relationship with her-when women are basically voiceless in the decision making in the church?
mot wrote:
Female members in a traditional congregational SBC church have a voice. In my 60+ year SBC experience, I have not seen women in traditional churches treated differently than men. However, this is not the case in the growing number of reformed elder-ruled SBC churches. As has been noted frequently on TWW, women are treated as lesser citizens of the Kingdom, subordinate to men in everything.
Dave (Eagle) wrote:
IMO, at least one of the incidents would qualify as date rape. Given the info that’s leaking out, I’d say there’s probably more than one.
Max wrote:
Max: How many traditional Southern Baptist Churches allow women to have leadership or pastoral positions? This goes contra the 2000 BF&M?
Max wrote:
My church is not neo-cal (a at least not yet) …… deacons, congregational votes on everything, including the monthly budget. But women are shut out. We can raise our hands and vote, but we can’t speak at business meetings …… Can’t speak in mixed gender SS classes……
One man who is a retired preacher goes on a “women must remain silent, no authority over men” rant every chance he gets. One deacon makes fun of my husband if I drive my own freakin’ car with him in the passenger seat. Then there was the deacon/ SS teacher who went on a “woman submit”/ Jezebel rant. Make members of the congregation have said things that make me angry enough to spit on them and walk out. Every.single.guest.speaker has had something derogatory to say about women, either in a joke or a “wives graciously submit in all things” declaration in the sermon.
Hmmm, anybody want to guess why I haven’t been to church in 50 weeks? My husband is a preacher, I may very well be a done.
@ Nancy2:
Typo, should say “male members of the congregation”
mot wrote:
Agreed. But they are not “voiceless”. They represent the majority of Bible study teachers in SBC and are free to express their opinions in congregational meetings. Indeed, if it weren’t for faithful women, numerous SBC churches would have closed their doors years ago. That has been my experience.
@ Nancy2:
Your neo-Cal SBC church sounds like it has some classic Calvinists in charge.
mot wrote:
Harummmph! The closest I’ve seen is Kitchen Committee Leader. I know; I had that position. That’s as good as it gets.
I do know one very small church that has a female treasurer (she works at a bank in management) Certain men rant about it at every business meeting because the female treasurer has to speak, yet no man will take on that responsibility!
You cant ask the courts to help you recoup money given in exchange as hush money to cover up your crime meaning you cant go into court with dirty hands. This is called the doctrine of clean hands. Both parties can’t commit crimes and then ask the court to recoup money from the other party. If im wrong someone please let me know
Divorce Minister wrote:
And repentance requires fruit or action: Matt. 3:8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.
Max wrote:
Max: It depends how one defines “voiceless” IMO.
Max wrote:
I’m sick of it. I busted my behind teaching Wed. night classes, SS classes, VBS classes …….. serving as secretary for the building program committee …….. managing prep and clean up in the kitchen for fellowship meals (including rolling out at 5:30 am to go get BBQ, turkey, etc that I ordered to feed 125 people, making special runs to the Commissary on post to get tax-exempt sodas for TEAM Kids every Wed. Night…….) I had free access to the church bank account so I could keep the kitchen supplied.
All that, and than you tell me I can’t speak in SS class or business. Oh, ‘ell no!
JYJames wrote:
Yep,amen.
Nancy2 wrote:
It is pure baloney that women can not teach, preach, etc in Southern Baptist churches etc. But they hide behind a few twisted scriptures.
Divorce Minister wrote:
Jennings was offered repentance/ reconciliation period. He bailed when he found out it lasted for a. Whole Year!
Nancy2 wrote:
Never have understood where these arbitrary period of times come from.
mot wrote:
From Pulpit&Pen: “When Polemics Report broke the story, Jennings ran to mentor, evangelist Tony Nolan, who did a video with Jennings and spoke of his need for restoration. After reviewing the evidence, however, Nolan decided that Jennings was not repentant, was continuing in his deceit, and was only interested in continuing his pursuit of fame. Nolan publicly repudiated Jennings after reporting that Jennings instead sought the council of lawyers and public relations experts who could help him overcome the media fall-out. Jennings also reportedly considered being “restored” at Johnny Hunt’s church, but declined when he found out it would take a year, and Hunt recently claimed that a preacher of Jennings’ description, “might be preaching about Jesus, but he’s not preaching with Jesus.”
@ Divorce Minister:
Actually both Matt. 3:8 and Luke 3:8:
“Therefore bear fruits in keeping with repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father,’ for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.”
Finally, there is the example of Zacchaeus, Luke 19:8, with compensating 4x’s what he took.
Perhaps, to compensate someone for their loss of innocence, at minimum 4x’s the cost of their PTSD counseling, might approach repentance.
Moreover, what is 4x’s the cost of a childhood lost?
Jeff Anderson, http://www.andersonadvocates.com , comments about the importance of compensation for child victims of abuse by clergy. The attorney felt that until the institutions (churches) began to seriously compensate victims, they would never even begin to take responsibility, address the problem, and stop the proliferation of abuse.
mot wrote:
Exactly.
Velour wrote:
How can one as a woman be asked to be submissive and have a voice in a Southern Baptist Church? No one is asking women their views or allowing her to sit on the substantial committees in SBC churches IMO.
mot wrote:
The subversion of women, (adults no less), thus facilitates the proliferation of … [fill in the blank].
Bridget wrote:
My my my! According to pastor Steven Furtick, a prime example of Jesus. . . not. . . is. . . Yours Truly!
http://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/153280-steven-furtick-lead-like-jesus-not-mr-rogers.html
My leadership is the antithesis of Jesus’ leadership. Now we all know Jesus leads by love. Therefore, my leadership, the opposite of Jesus’ leadership, must be by hate. When pastor Steven says “Hey, Haters” he’s talking to me! I resemble that remark!
JYJames wrote:
I keep wondering when women will revolt against this nonsense. So many men and women’s lives have been ruined over the role of women in the SBC. Those that were in pastoral positions that supported women in ministry found themselves labeled “liberals” and found themselves needing to find a church outside of the Southern Baptist world to pastor.
Nancy2 wrote:
Did you miss where Clayton said he’s not a rapper, but a poet, who doesn’t want attention? Poor thing! His slickly produced, calculated rhyming (that takes a lot of forethought) temper tantrum is simply his way of maintaining his precious anonymity.
mot wrote:
Where I escaped from women were the front line enforcers.
Nancy2 wrote:
I’m really glad that you haven’t. I just wonder why we women subject ourselves to this stuff. I reached my limit several years ago.
Dave (Eagle) wrote:
Same here. It seems like it’s all about appearances according to a set checklist, not whether people are actually being hurt/used/abused.
Nancy2 wrote:
Hey, those good looks aren’t going to last forever! He’s got to make hay while the sun shines, can’t sit it out for a whole year! ha
I’m Reading over the places Clayton Jennings is going to visit.
Tijuana Mexican Prison Revival would be an awesome name for a band.
@ Fred Rogers:
Don’t be offended, Fred. Furtich is a nut case who makes up what he thinks Jesus should be like. Jesus is the image of Furtich, don’t ya know? 😉
Well written and thoughtful as always. A bit off subject
http://www.unlockgenesis.com/speaker-bios/#.WJ6cyvkrLcc
is this weekend. Hope everyone has a nice weekend.
Christiane wrote:
Nope. Evil is there regardless, it’s the church we’re leaving.
Loved the Galaxy photo.
I have posted a new update on the open discussion thread. Thank you all.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/open-discussion-page/comment-page-11/#comment-309251
http://www.gofundme.com/ljahelp
mot wrote:
Southern Baptists are losing people in droves. That’s how they are revolting.
I go to a UMC church now, with a wonderful female pastor.
Oh that CS Lewis quote. So sad.
From Rainer:
What a terrible thing to put on the unoffending spouse! I definitely agree with the commented who said the other part of the affair was not mentioned, but since it is SO often a church member she should have been. Resources and compassion for the family, the church, the spouse, and of course the pastor (who will probably be quickly put back in ‘ministry’) but the other part of the ‘affair’ gets frozen out and treated like dirt.
Nancy2 wrote:
This is in reference to Clayton? I hadn’t heard that story yet.
Lea wrote:
I have little to no respect for Rainer. He is just like most of the other leaders of the SBC–the pastor is the ruler and must be protected at all costs.
mot wrote:
That was exactly my taken of Rainer many months ago. (In my opinion, he behaved like Mark Dever’s twin brother.)
@ brian:
Essentially this is an ICR (Institute of Creation Research) conference. The ICR is a theological institute committed to proving a young earth, not a scientific organization. If you are interested in pursuing this topic, not just advertising, I’ll post a list of appropriate references on the Open Discussion page.
When Dee said what she said about David Platt, and when I noticed that I had never read anything by him nor heard him speak nor anything else, I sought to remedy my ignorance. So I started listening to him on YouTube. On one sermon fragment (it appears that is what it was) he gave a lot of statistics about the current level of sexual immorality (among other things) among christians. I do not know if his stats were correct, but what he basically said is that in comparing stats for self professed christians and stats for the general population, the stats are almost identical. In this matter, the church and the world are not different.
I am thinking that the place to start is not just with the alleged errant professional christian who is pastor or staff, and not just with the alleged victim, but rather with the whole area of expectations for christian behavior. ‘Alleged’ =don’t blame me if I use the wrong terminology.
We need to revisit some doctrinal and theological ideas and see how we got into this mess in the first place, and then start to correct our christian sub-culture itself.
@ mot:
Another reason not to respect the highly paid Rainer of LifeWay;
http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2016/01/scam-alert-thom-rainer-offers-to-mentor.html
@ mot:
The older ones might be revolting more than we realize or can track when it comes to money. Most older people leave and don’t make a fuss. And more and more of the SBC is hiding financial information.
David wrote:
Lol!
Lydia wrote:
Yep, these guys get paid big bucks for what and where does that money come from? I recently bought and read the book by Mary Kinney Branson–Spending God’s Money. I for better or worse have kept up with the SBC for years and have barely heard the name Reccord. These financial scandals must have been kept hush-hush. They wasted many a widow’s mites.
@ Nancy2:
I don’t get it. Growing up, it was usual for a woman to run the business meetings and they knew where every penny went. I see this stuff and feel like this SBC is seeking to be a cult of gender Luddites.
@ mot:
Her book gives insight into how the scamming of pew peons works. For decades –since the church growth movement (servant leader cult stuff) infiltrated everything. Mohler just methodically took it over and made it more secret.
Bill M wrote:
It would make an interesting study for a sociologist of religion to identify the actual and perceived benefits of such systems for their female enforcers, in contrast to the ones who leave. Are the enforcers brainwashed, and living in a fantasy world, or are they benefitting just enough that it all appears to be true? Why would some women benefit, while others are mistreated?
@ okrapod:
You might enjoy his book, “Radical”. Give everything away and live like a pauper for Jesus. The only problem is he then took a high profile and highly paid position with LifeWay– after his congregation followed his advice. Then, as a Radical, he went to an undisclosed dangerous place where he could be killed for his faith to broadcast this back to the states in a Lifeway promotion. He was at the Dubai Marriott. Very dangerous. Sigh.
@ NJ:
From my experience in the speaking circuit world of comp conferences big in the 90’s, women benefit, And there are various ways they benefit that don’t make sense to some. . Don’t forget it is women who also arrange the genital mutilation of little girls.
Lydia wrote:
I found it shocking that when Reccord “resigned” 41 people in SBC life, mostly ministers signed a letter praising him for his “good” work at NAMB. What a bunch of vipers and wolves IMO.
Lydia wrote:
Yes mam, Platt is a “real” example of giving it all away for Jesus sake–NOT! How do these rascal look at themselves in the mirror every day?
@ Lydia:
I suspect the FGM thing is a combination of traditionalism, and “if I had to go through it, so do they”.
@ Lydia:
Yeah, I need to check all his stats. He was saying what I had already read elsewhere about divorce and abortion and what’s-on-the-computer, so I did not take the time to check out the rest. But I need to remember to do that.
I have to say, though, that I do not at this point unquestioningly agree with everything that the Right Reverend Wright writes just based on who he is, nor do I pre-empitvely disbelieve everything that David Platt says since accuracy can be either present or missing in anybody. Accuracy stands on its own as far as I am concerned. Opinions are a whole different matter.
okrapod wrote:
For one thing, sex outside of marriage seems to be treated worse than cheating on a spouse. Which to me is crazy.
Lea wrote:
http://polemicsreport.com/2016/11/21/clayton-jennings-his-victim-speaks-up/
From the article: “At dinner Clayton ordered me two alcoholic drinks, and after I told him I couldn’t drink anymore, as even small amounts of alcohol effect me greatly. Once back home he said he had purchased a special bottle of wine “just for me.” and expressed how long he had waited for this occasion. Being 21 for only a few days, I explained to him that I had never had wine before, and thought the large 12-16oz dinner glasses he poured me were equivalent to a beer. While finishing the bottle, he had us watch his ministry films and sermons. I became so intoxicated I had difficulty walking and was falling over. Clayton dominantly initiated sexual fornication.”
Lea wrote:
The institution of marriage is obviously far more important than the welfare of the individuals. Damn the people, marriage must be saved at all costs!
mot wrote:
Feature, not Bug.
Just ask “Willaim Wallace II” or the Jerk with the Kirk.
Lydia wrote:
A woman being a tithing, participating member of these churches is akin to joining a golf club where we pay the dues, work on the grounds, and then were told, ” Sorry, you can’t actually play golf. Allowing you out on the course is against club rules.”
Nancy2 wrote:
Privilege of Pastoral/Penile Rank.
Though it was a lot funnier when Kentucky Fried Movie did it.
“Are you familiar with the Penile Code in this state?”
Nancy2 wrote:
Alcohol — the original/classic date rape drug.
“Candy is dandy
But liquor is quicker.”
— Ogden Nash
Bill M wrote:
First/Head Wife of the Supreme Commander/God’s Chosen, or just Marthas playing Kapo over the Handmaids?
@ mot:
Rationalization. He is one of Gods specially appointed messenger and does it for Him so there is no cognitive dissonance for him. He was taught this:
http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2011/02/al-mohler-pastors-are-god-appointed.html
Nancy2 wrote:
I always wonder if said retired preacher goes home to She Who Must Be Obeyed (in secret) and takes it out on anything with two X chromosomes because he dare not raise hand against She Who Must Be Obeyed (in secret).
Like Edmund Kemper serial-killing coed after coed in Santa Cruz because he dared not raise hand against his incredibly abusive Mommy Dearest. Only when he finally got up the nerve to kill Mommy Dearest, his killings stopped.
NJ wrote:
The same combination as Frat Hazing.
Lydia wrote:
“Morals are for Men, not… GODS…”
— Star Trek, “Where No Man Has Gone Before” (second pilot, 1966)
okrapod wrote:
I vehemently disagree with NT Wright on quite a few things from church/state to sacraments to some assertions about Paul. He even gives PSA a bit of a pass within the theories so you might agree with him there. Some of the disagreements I have briefly discussed here. Not sure why you bring him up in relation to me. I have enjoyed his historical leaning lectures and backdrop in approach to interpretation and at least give him some credit in that area as an Ancients scholar before becoming a theologian. That is rare out there these days.
Lydia wrote:
I brought him up only as a contrast to Platt in that there has been right much approval of NTW on TWW comments generally and right much disapproval of DP on TWW comments generally so I set the two in contrast supposedly for clarity. Obviously there was little or no clarity about it.
“He even gives PSA a bit of a pass within the theories so you might agree with him there.”
I probably would if ‘a bit of a pass’ is all he does. IMO no one theory of the atonement is sufficient by itself. There is something to be learned from them all. I also do not think that any one is straight from the pit, and I think that a more comprehensive thinking concerning ideas of the atonement is better than pick one and live or die by it and it alone.
okrapod wrote:
where do you think is a good place to begin to do this?
@ Dave (Eagle):
Much agreement here Dave (Eagle). If sex was all that big of a buggaboo to the Almighty, he’d have done better to make it no more enjoyable than getting the wheat and barley crop in. I have long advocated a rethinking (in the Christian culture and sub-culture) of human sexuality in terms of a responsible pragmatism.
As it is, secular culture is besotted with sex as a be-all and end-all, and on the other hand, Christianity goes in the opposite direction with heavy doses of ethereal and flowery nonsense.
@ Nancy2:
Excellent analogy.
However, on the club scene, pay the dues, play the game.
The church, however, seems to be able to rape/rob/ravage, and then control the narrative, control the message (via theology). It’s a mind game? Spin?
Lydia wrote:
I thought most Christian seminaries grounded the students in philosophy and ethics as an intro into the study of theology. Don’t most seminaries require at least a college degree before entry?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Bingo.
Christiane wrote:
Great idea.
At the same time, it seems TWW does this with every post, in ruminating over the theology that got us to posted example of practice/consequence/application.
Jesus moved among the normal people with normal struggles, sans the cult of the personality. He applied God’s law and fulfilled God’s law for all people of all time, everywhere. He spoke truth (God’s) to power (human) in his time, and via his actions and words, for all time.
@ okrapod:
I think he is brought up because he seems to at least be a bit of a deeper thinker in contrast to the New Cals many are surrounded by these days. And maybe it’s because Piper, Mohler and others really went after him on Justification years back and presented him as a heretic. That is how I heard of him. I once heard him say he is a good Calvinist in relation to something he was teaching but can’t remember what. At least he wrote and published his first academic researched book at 42 and it wasn’t about himself or his ministry, either.
I am starting to read more by the Torrence’s, too. Doesn’t mean I agree with everything but at least they make you think. So I might mention them now and then. JB Torrence seems to focus, on purpose, on “The Who”. Not the how. And why focusing on the Who is most important. Of course he is an academic so it’s much more scholarly than what I presented. :o)
mot wrote:
They take great pains to see only “through a glass darkly”. Especially when looking at themselves.
@ Christiane:
A friend of mine had a bachelors in business and an MBA before enrolling in seminary. Not sure what you are implying but my guess is the Catholics do it right for the priests. (Wink)
JYJames wrote:
Easy to ‘handmaids’ in the daughters of patriarchal families who ‘stay home’, do not date or have normal relationships with males, are dependent on their parents for connections to begin ‘courtships’, must (if they marry at all, poor things) marry into the same hell from which they themselves were bred
and you get an ‘Anna’ who was betrayed, and you get the ‘Botkin Sisters’ so beautiful and restricted to the ‘tower’ kept safe from ‘dragons’ except for the one who keeps them in the tower; and the sweet Jana who remains always a bridesmaid never a bride and helps at home … at home … at home … year after year with seemingly endless patience
I suppose the counterpart of the worst of the male Patriarchal heads must be the ‘Marthas’ who act to reinforce the male-headship reign;
and whoa betide any young woman who tries to escape their dominion ….
Christiane wrote:
Joshua Harris found one that doesn’t!
@ mot:
“Max: It depends how one defines “voiceless” IMO.”
+++++++++++++++
ha, that’s the truth. oh, my voice was audible. i know they heard it because they responded, and were polite. they could see me, too. i know, because they looked right at me and i could see their eyes focussing, and they smiled.
but beyond that i was voiceless and invisible to them.
@ siteseer:
“I just wonder why we women subject ourselves to this stuff. I reached my limit several years ago.”
+++++++++++++++++
i would guess that women in these circumstances are getting some kind of benefit(s) out of the equation. they don’t want to give those up.
that and habit. people put up with all manner sh|t simply out of habit. fear of change. not wanting to get out of the lukewarm bath, which is getting colder, because of the shock of being out of it and the unknown/uncertain processes that happen after that.
conscience needs to be pricked, so that the irritation of it is greater than the urge to stay in the lukewarm-&-cooling bathwater.
@ Christiane:
Thanks, Christiane, this is great analysis with examples.
@ elastigirl:
Lukewarm, habit or tradition, and benefits.
Enlightening summary – thanks, Elastigirl.
JYJames wrote:
I once read a beautiful comment about a man who worked as a farmer behind a plow most of the time and sometimes came to preach at Church …. and this simple man of the soil was more of Christ to the writer of the comment than all the trained preachers she had ever heard …. I believe her …
it is said in Eastern Christianity that a humble man can draw thousands to Christ
I loved your comment.
JYJames wrote:
I would love to know what benefits these submissive women are receiving.
Christiane wrote:
The senior pastor at SBC Mega here was a CPA before going into the ministry, and as far as I know before going to seminary.
Jonathan Falwell, Jerry’s second son and pastor of Thomas Road, had a masters in religion from Liberty and then got a JD and ‘did well’ in law and now is senior pastor after his dad died, with prior experience as executive pastor. Very practical approach.
Having done something else, and done it successfully, before going into the ministry tends to be very respected and seems to be a possibly accelerated path to success in the pastorate. People tend to respect that.
Route to the pastorate would be college degree, yes, usually. Preferably more than one. Seminary, or Masters from a Divinity School in some University, yes. Proven experience in ‘the world’ is always a boost, and even may serve as a substitute for a ‘weak’ undergrad career. Something that may look like the lateral entry that the public schools do, that also. Practical ability in church management and ability to get along with people is prized and can compensate for mediocre sermons. Nobody is looking for an academic (ivory tower) as lead pastor.
Academics end up on faculties somewhere, or in my denom they have some doing ‘research’ on I don’t know what.
@ JYJames:
it was a little bit of an over-the-top rant 🙂
and I didn’t get to post the corollary to it either about the ‘handmaids’ sent by their quiver-full families to serve at the court of the octogenarian Gothard where some of the attractive ones who appealed to his interests would be introduced to that which no parent wants their daughters to have to go through ….
@ Muff Potter:
American squeamishness — i suspect Puritanical roots has something to do with it — creates a crazy sensational allure blowing it all out of proportion (as both the zenith and the abyss of human existence).
keeps people obsessing over it (do it! don’t do it! i can’t do it! i won’t do it! i want to do it! i’m terrified of doing it! Shame on me for wanting to do it! Shame on me for doing it! Shame on on all of you for doing it! Good for you for doing it! But shame on you at the same time!)
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Marthas were the kitchen workers. You’re thinking of the brown-clad Aunts, with their electric cattle prods.
Speaking of, Hulu is coming out with a new Handmaid’s Tale series in April.
Not every woman wants to be over at the church busy, busy, busy much less wants to have the responsibility for making it all work. Scads of women are exhausted and fed up what with a full time job outside the home and then husband/kids/shopping/housework/dealing with the plumber/etc. at home, and then there is the PTA. It is a very easy step to say ‘I am fulfilling the role God gave me’ than actually saying ‘I am too tired to care any more and if the church goes under that is not my problem’.
That is not the whole answer as to why mobs of women are not over at the churches demanding changes, but it is one of the reasons.
@ Lydia:
not so sure of this: our one-time neighbor was a USCG captain who had been a ‘mustang’ coming up through the ranks to eventually become an officer …. so it is likely he did not have a college degree, but he HAD studied at one time for the priesthood….. it left its mark, as he was one of the inspirations for my son to go into the USCG after 9-ll.
He eventually became Commander of the New York Sector before his retirement. Fine man. Degrees? Not so sure. Character: solid as they come
okrapod wrote:
There are three pastors that I know personally, and deeply admire. They do not have college degrees.
# 1 : did our marriage ceremony. He worked at a factory full time while pastoring churches, until he retired from the factory. I’ve considered him a friend for almost 40 yrs. I was baptized by him when I was 14.
# 2 : began life working at a meat processing plant. Since I have known him, he has pastored churches while driving school buses for public school systems. I’ve known him since ca 1998.
# 3 : worked as an auto mechanic at my great-uncle’s garage for many years before answering the call. I’ve known this man and his family my entire life.
Got a problem? Undergoing medical treatments? Death in the family? Reasons to celebrate? Whatever. Any or all of these three men will be there.
I consider these three men to be great men of God. There wives are my friends and they are great, strong, outspoken women of God. Unfortunately, this breed is almost extinct.
okrapod wrote:
IMO it is much too late for women to make any substantial changes in the SBC world. As I have heard it said too many times to men and women in the SBC–if you do not like the way things are done-just leave.
Christiane wrote:
There’s another guy who did this, a Shepherd to maidens, in the name of Christ. He fled to Brazil, with the assistance of a former maiden, of course. http://thecut.io/2keR90d
what troubles is that self-giving is beautiful thing in our faith;
but when it is demanded that women self-give to the point of abandoning the many gifts that God has given to them to share in this life so that their time is sacrificed to the obeisance of MEN …. that is a sacrifice to humans …. a giving-up of talents and intelligence meant by God to serve in the wider community and the wider world
sometimes for a woman to fully say ‘YES’ to God, she must say ‘no’ to those who demand her strict obeisance to men;
for those women who understand this truth, it is not such a conflict to break free of the patriarchal web
Christiane wrote:
“Don’t throw what is holy to dogs, nor pearls to swine, should they trample them underfoot and tear you to pieces.” (Matthew 7:6).
And then once free, don’t return:
Proverbs 26:11, 2 Peter 2:22 – “As a dog returns to its vomit, so fools repeat their folly.”
JYJames wrote:
“The judge set bail at $1.5 million. Prosecutors, who are preparing for Barnard’s next court appearance on July 5, say Barnard’s followers are now liquidating their assets to pay for his release.”
Tithe Tithe Tithe Tithe Tithe…
elastigirl wrote:
Sounds like an Ayn Rand Manly-Man Hero — “Am i getting Fat? Do I look Fat? Does this make me look Fat? Do you think I’m Fat? Am I Getting Fat? Do I Look Fat? …)
(Considering Rand and her Manly-Man Self-Inserts were all nicotine-based life forms, “Getting FAT” should have been the least of their worries…)
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Pearls to swine; first their daughters, now their earned-income and assets. Cult “in the name of Christ”, “based on the Bible”. Sick.
Divorce Minister wrote:
In law enforcement, they say, “We know with a ‘serial’, there will be more victims until we solve the case.”
In the church, with “serials”, until they are stopped, there will be more victims. Somehow, good church folk don’t seem to add this up.
@ Nancy2:
I have heard of people like that. My father used to say they were plentiful back in his day. There was also an idea that going to seminary ‘ruined’ a man. I imagine that is even more true now than back then. And something of this idea plays a role in the bible college or institute movement. Look at the difference between grads of Moody and grads of Wheaton. Of course, some go from Moody to Wheaton but some don’t.
okrapod wrote:
?
@ elastigirl:
“…a crazy sensational allure blowing it all out of proportion (as both the zenith and the abyss of human existence)”
+++++++++++++
…(as both the apex and the abyss of human experience)
better said that way.
Nancy2 wrote:
Wow. I had no idea this was anywhere considered the “norm” in the SBC. I grew up in an SBC in the 60s in western KY and it was nothing like this.
So sorry.
Brings to mind a story of better times. A group of about a dozen or so families from our church went to an SBC camp for a group swim then camp out. When we got there the pool was still in use by a group from another church. They were running over their time limit due to not allowing mixed bathing. So we got to wait a bit for their second shift to finish. Someone in our group asked OUR pastor what his thoughts were on mixed bathing. As near a quote as I can remember:
“I love my wife but we think our shower would be too crowded to hold both of us at one time.”
Rim shot.
@ Nancy2:
Is your church SBC or is it Missionary Baptist? I think you have addressed this issue in the past but I have forgotten what you said.
@ JYJames:
Bible Institutes/ Bible Colleges on the one hand of which Moody is a good example, and Christian Liberal Arts Colleges on the other hand, of which Wheaton is a good example, are not the same.
Using Moody for example, its stated mission is to train people for full time Christian work. I understand that now the do offer degrees, but they pursue different accreditation. Wheaton apparently from the get go went for both faith building and also an emphasis on academics, designating itself as a Christian liberal arts college It does not limit its perception of its mission to those going into full time Christian work.
Some people start out at a Bible College and then end up at Wheaton, Billy Graham ( a school in Florida) for one and Bart Ehrman (Moody) for another. A former pastor of mine started out at Moody and then went to a Baptist liberal arts college in KY en route to seminary. The father of a former extended family member went to Bible College and he used to discuss the differences. The emphasis is different between the two types of schools and some of the ideas turn out to be different in practice.
I got into this because Christiane raised the issue of education for the clergy.
NC Now wrote:
I am 52 yo., lived within less than a mile from where I am now my whole life. As a child, I attended a Missionary baptist church with my aunt and a General baptist church with my parents. I have been a member of 4 Missionary baptist churches. I have seen drastic changes in my lifetime, even in my daughter’s lifetime.
The pastor who drives school buses baptized my daughter in 1994. At that time, I visited that church occasionally, and finally decided to transfer my membership. While we were there, women participated/talked in business meetings. Women were on finance committees, etc. When this pastor left and another came in 2006, women were denied the right to speak. When we left that church in 2913, they were debating whether or not women should be allowed to speak in mixed gender SS classes.
The church we are at now …… yeah, the “women shall not speak” pastor who is at my old church used to be the pastor here.
I have watched the attitudes and rules concerning women change for the worse over the last 10-15 years. The SBC has stripped women of their involvement in the churches. We are now members in name only.
@ okrapod:
Wheaton brings to mind Elizabeth and Jim Elliot, (a mixed bag),
while Moody elicits George Verwer and George Fox (winners with amazing legacies) but also Jerry Jenkins (now perhaps evolved into a “loser” or not someone to emulate).
Yes, how “we” got here, Christendom, is thought-provoking.
The story of Nash/Bash in the UK, and his creation of secret societies of the Christian elite, equally so.
okrapod wrote:
Both. I have been a member of three different SBC affiliated Missionary Baptist churches.
New Cedar Grove – Elkton, Bellview- Allegre, and Carter Creek – Greenville.
I know of many more Missionary Baptist churches, as well as General BC,1st baptist, etc. who are part of the SBC.
NC Now wrote:
I am a life-long Todd Countian, sandwiched in between Logan and Christian counties.
@ Nancy2:
Oops forgot an MB church: New Hope – Clifty.
Nancy2 wrote:
SBC leaders by the way they treat women are still blaming Eve for what happened in the Garden and IMO hate and I mean hate women. Sorry, Adam, you could have told Eve no.
okrapod wrote:
I think women who speak up in these churches are in danger of being excommunicated and shunned “before all” and it’s not just a matter of them being busy and tired in their own lives. I think many women can “read the writing on the wall”.
I say this as a woman who spoke up in a 9 Marxist, authoritarian, NeoCalvinist church and I was excommunicated and shunned for it. And I spoke up “nicely”. No matter. Anyone who spoke up…was excommunicated and shunned.
mot wrote:
Man failed to communicate. Blame the woman, so that we can blame all women.
Nancy2 wrote:
I remember the days when women were revered in the SBC, but is has been decades ago.
Velour wrote:
Whatta ya think they think of a woman who open-carries in an open-carry state?!!!! ……. and knows how to handle the hardware!
Velour wrote:
Some of these women had to see the ungodly way men were treated in the SBC that publicly spoke up that women could be used in ministry by God and know their treatment would be much worse.
mot wrote:
Nowadays it just boils down to free labor: free childcare services, free catering services, and free cleaning services in church.
You can tack on singing in the choir, but that’s just because so many of our beautiful old songs with the split choruses would sound horrible without the altos and sopranos.
Once someone from the evangelical community decides to explore the history of the faith more deeply, I think there is great value in having a working understanding of classical Western philosophy and ethics.
There is no doubt that Western thought impacted the Church of Rome, much less so the Eastern Orthodox Churches. A study of the differences can highlight that impact, yes.
As for wanting to understand ‘what the early Church taught’ that came from the Apostles out of Jerusalem, then a scholar’s best bet is to examine the liturgies and writings of all the earliest centers of Christianity that were established out of Jerusalem,
and see WHAT THEY HAD IN COMMON. Then you have an optimum chance of finding that which came directly to them from Jerusalem and from the Apostles.
Some scholarship for those who seek to explore the faith at that level is not a bad idea. And there is place for scholarship in the Church.
But there is more of a place for pastoral care that is comforting and healing and patient and kind and filled with the Good Way of Our Lord. For the gifts needed by pastoral care-givers, no university or seminary can dispense them. Those gifts are the fruit of the Spirit.
Nancy2 wrote:
Throw at the church boyz/9Marxists/authoritarians some dangerous snakes you shot and I think you will silence them. But not for long.
If they are in an uproar that you drove the car and your husband was a passenger in it,
it doesn’t bode well for what they think of women. But then, honestly who cares for their “thoughts”?
mot wrote:
Spot on.
It was much worse for the women who were excommunicated from my authoritarian, 9 Marxist, John MacArthur-ite church — Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley — than for the men.
I know that John thanks and I was adding it because if these people want to have a useful conference maybe they could have one on preventing abuse, good bylaws, moving past covenant memberships etc. I just should have added that but I was so red hot angry at those people JM in particular after reading all that goes on here than seeing this, in my opinion, blatant ripoff. I just posted the link and deleted my rant. Your explanations have always helped me very much in this and other areas and if you would do that I would appreciate it. Thanks. Really hate JM quite a bit and I know that’s wrong but well I need prayer for that.
okrapod wrote:
Our neighbor Elsa, a beautiful Christian woman with a husband and two daughters …. she was nurse at the local hospital full time. Her husband did not work, but ‘ministered’ in the neighborhood and hung out at their Church where he volunteered to ‘assist’ the pastor. I have to think that the Church was Patriarchal in the sense that ‘Rev. Bob’ as we called him in the neighborhood did no work around his home. Elsa did all, even mowing the lawn herself. She washed the car, and chauffered her girls to their piano lessons and school activities. Elsa washed and hung the laundry out, and cooked, and cleaned.
We didn’t understand WHY he did nothing to help her, so as he came around to visit in the neighborhood, seemingly wanting to impress us with his Christian beliefs, the truth is we were struck more with his neglect of his over-worked Christian wife. It was her kind and generous neighborliness and her fortitude in the midst of her husband’s neglect that spoke to us in a more meaningful way. He was ‘clueless’. We pitied him but I pitied Elsa more because she didn’t deserve to be treated that way, not for the sake of any ‘theology’, no.
brian wrote:
Heh, maybe you don’t hate JM. Maybe you just hate what he says, does, and represents. Rants? I go on those too. Vent. What else is there to do sometimes?
@ Nancy2:
Yall like to think you’re from western KY. Those of us from around Paducah know better. 🙂
@ okrapod:
In the 90’s plus, the SBC seminaries were trying to get them younger as they started 4 year colleges like Boyce. I have not bothered to track the numbers that stayed for seminary but I knew about 20 Boyce students who moved here for the whole track. Every single one of them left after Boyce. Purely anecdotal but all came to do the pastor track. This was around 2004-2009. Only a few said it wasn’t what they expected. Most did not talk about it.
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
Regent?
GuyBehindtheCurtain wrote:
I will have you know I have been to Monkey’s Eyebrow. I know Western KY!
GuyBehindtheCurtain wrote:
At least I’m closer to the Corvette Museum and Mammoth Cave!
Believe me, I’m very familiar with Paducah (best Red Lobster, and Paducah has a Gander Mountain now!), and the Jackson Purchase and LBL area: Murray, Benton, Cadiz, Eddyville …… visited all those places multiple times! Bought my daughter’s wedding dress at a shop in Paducah!
PS- try telling somebody from Fulton, Wickcliffe, or Hickman that you’re from western KY!
Lydia wrote:
My friends have a son who pastors a church in Hickman. He can just about throw a rock into the Mississippi from the church parking lot.
Nancy2 wrote:
What I don’t understand is why the women in church didn’t revolt in 2006. I think it’s clear (obviously in hindsight) that you can’t give these people what they want. If someone pulls this sort of thing, kick that pastor out, or leave. Of course that’s easy for me to say with zero investment/friendships in a church. But I cannot understand this nonsense happening in 2006!
@ Nancy2:
I have extended family in Paducah and Murray. Monkey’s Eyebrow visit was a presentation to a Sportsmans association at the hunting lodge many moons ago. I spent the next very early morning in a duck blind. Ewww. It’s where all the rivers meet and supposedly is great hunting. I remember passing a town named Bandana.:o)
My aunt in Paducah was cracking up! I visited her on way home for long soak.
elastigirl wrote:
I remember reading a quote that ‘no one ever changes until they become too disgusted with the way they are to stand it anymore’ (paraphrasing), wish I could remember who said it, but I’ve often seen it to be true.
There’s also fear. It’s funny how we take the word of the guy who is benefiting from our staying that ‘bad things’ will happen to us if we leave… (Anyone out there struggling with this, let me assure you it isn’t true, things are just fine out here.)
@ siteseer:
“(Anyone out there struggling with this, let me assure you it isn’t true, things are just fine out here.)”
++++++++++++++++++
oh my gosh, my life has taken OFF since removing myself from church culture. Spiritually, relationally, productively, professionally.
i am amazed at how much time, energy, and focus it required. a drag on the engine of me, my emotions, my personality, my brain, my creativity, my physical self. and how it made everything more difficult. relationships, especially. complicated them so unnecessarily.
Lydia wrote:
One of my cousin’s is really big on duck hunting – cold early mornings in hip waders with his dog ….. I think I’ll stick with fishing. I’d rather sit cramped up in a johnboat and swat mosquitoes. You were lucky though, at least ME isn’t very far from Paducah!
Lea wrote:
That church is an old church. Some families track back for generations there, including mine. My paternal grandparents, one set of great-grandparents …….. My grandparents and all of my grandfather’s brothers and sisters are buried there, save one who died in infancy. When I was a child, my aunt was my SS teacher there. I can tell you from experience, it’s hard to let go and walk away. As far as women revolting- we would have to be unified, and that’s not happening. Too many are afraid the only home church they’ve know would end up closing up shop.
@ JYJames:
well, i’ve been there job-wise. until the decision was made for me with a round of company-wide lay-offs. it was an entirely left-brain job, hated it 100%, although i enjoyed my co-workers & our daily rapport. fear of the unknown, enjoying the comfort of predictability, & not wanting to rev up and gear up for a job search kept me there.
i remember so clearly the day i was laid off (as do many people, I suppose). totally unexpected. 45 minutes after i arrived i was leaving for good. the rest of the day i felt like i was wearing a sandwich placard blinking red with “SHE JUST GOT LAID OFF!! SHE JUST GO LAID OFF!”
one of the best things to ever happen to me, though.
i’m now self-employed in a 99% right-brain thing, doing what i know i was made to do. (at least one of things i was made to do — we all have more than one).
@ mot:
“I would love to know what benefits these submissive women are receiving.”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
perhaps nothing other than the comfort of predictability. that and the belief that God is smiling down on them for their modus operandi. that one is BIG perceived benefit. oooooh, some people will endure just about anything for that one.
mot wrote:
The joy of suffering?
Nancy2 wrote:
I get that which Is why I added the caveat. I left the church I grew up in at 16 or so? I think that was probably the hardest jump.
did anybody just keep talking in class/meetings and sort of dare the pastor to call them out? I’m thinking about what would be the best way to handle the situation (aside from jumping ship entirely/Ive gone to an egal church and happily don’t have to worry about this). I’m thinking that’s the place to start but I don’t know. Kind of like the story I heard about the guillatine and how everyone of the upper class people were going stoically and quietly and this one lady just freaked out and screamed/cried and apparently that made more of an impression.
elastigirl wrote:
Yes, yes, yes. To all of it.
elastigirl wrote:
There is a lot of comfort and perceived stability in a caste system for many people. It gives them identity, too. People know what is expected of them and many people like predictability. There are always a few who want more and become spokeswomen for the caste giving them a bit higher position and respectability enforcing and carrying on the traditions and such.
@ Ken F:
The ones I met on the speaking circuit were not suffering. At all. :o)
Does anyone know what this latest “poem” by JP means? http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/failure.
@ Ken F:
Another display of HPD?
@ Ken F:
Oh my! I don’t speak Piper.
Ken F wrote:
He is trying to present as lowly as possible . . .
Lydia wrote:
I think that must be a sign of good mental health.
@ Ken F:
Lol! I hope so.
Lea wrote:
Oh, yeah. Myself and three other women that I’ve known for many years — one of whom is the church treasurer. Every time a certain deacon complained about her defying authority by speaking at business meetings, she called him on it and no one contested her. She is still the treasurer – no man will assume the responsibility and the workload. Same said deacon complained about me teaching teenaged boys. When we left the church, that deacon was stuck with my class……. at my “request”. He couldn’t get the boys to behave, so he quit teaching. I think the whole kerfuffle backfired on the manly men.
The pastor wouldn’t touch me or the lady treasurer with a ten foot pole. BTW, same preacher asked me to teach that SS class because my rep as both a public school teacher and a teacher at church proceeded me. He knew I could handle the class.
Ken F wrote:
I’d say crazy ….. like a fox!
@ Nancy2:
I’ll bet they never sang, “Victory in Jesus” at Bethlehem. :o)
siteseer wrote:
always good to know that those people saying ‘be afraid, be really, really afraid’ are using fear to try to manipulate others into signing on to their agenda ….
better to find a religious group that advocates what ‘casts fear out’ 🙂
Ken F wrote:
Ad copy for the material used in the emperor’s new clothes.
mot wrote:
Actually, the SBC leaders could recognize that Jesus is the New Adam and the church is the New Eve and try to work with that paradigm.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:
They can not do that because they would no longer have women to blame for everything.
Ken F wrote:
*blink* What is that word salad?
@ Muslin, fka Dee Holmes:
Histrionics.
Ken F wrote:
First you have to tell me what kind of pre-medication I need.
Gram3 wrote:
You would need to have a large serving of ice cream, served as a Sacred Cow Sundae of course (Gram3’s TM).
elastigirl wrote:
So often in the church, holiness was discussed strictly in terms of morality, do’s and don’ts. I prefer your approach.
@ Nancy2:
Interesting. Thanks!
Nancy2 wrote:
The difference between a citizen and a subject.
@ Velour:
That was not sufficient the last time I disregarded my feminine feels and read a 9Marks article.
Gram3 wrote:
I tried reading it several times, both before and after some nice red wine. I cannot determine whose failure he writes about.
Ken F wrote:
… on and on about himself “suffering” and feeling sorry for himself in his failure, to evoke pity?
1 Peter 2:20 20 For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God.
Nancy2 wrote:
Nancy2, I really do believe you’d like a Yankee perch fry in the South East corner of Wisconsin on Lake Michigan.
Gram3 wrote:
Gram3,
Would Scotch/Whiskey help? I just don’t know. Fried chicken, sides, a Sacred Cow Sundae, and a little bottle of something special from Nancy2’s neck of the woods, Kentucky.
If you must read a 9 Marks article, make sure to give Nancy2 a link to it. She can print it out, take it outside, and “blow it to bits” (literally) with some fire power. Then she can post pictures. I know that would make me feel loads better.
After all, that’s how we “handle things” at Camp Backbone.
Velour wrote:
Brothers Mosin and Nagant would deal with the printout cathartically, albeit with a side effect of some pain and sensitivity in the shoulder afterward if one isn’t careful in handling. That, I presume, is where the whisky would come in…
Velour wrote:
Love this.
Velour wrote:
Don’t let the ATF find out.
Gram3 wrote:
I recommend a blindfold.
Muff Potter wrote:
Scoot over …… I’ll make da hushpuppies!
Josh wrote:
Print it out, take it to the edge of the woods, blow it to bits with several rounds, go back to the house and propose a toast with some fine Kentucky bourbon. Moonshine is available, too.
Muff Potter wrote:
Not a prob. My cousin is a deputy sheriff.
Nancy2 wrote:
…that’s tightly around Mark Dever…before he gets his ‘just desserts’.
Muff Potter wrote:
In her part of Kentucky, Nancy2 IS the ATF! (We won’t be smokin’ at Camp Backbone. It gives me a migraine and asthma.)
Josh wrote:
Da.
Mosin & Nagant, being Russian, would require vodka.
JYJames wrote:
It’s the official “camp” of The Wartburg Watch rascals. To be held at a future date in Kentucky (Nancy2’s neck of the woods, our fearless leader). We will have our own “fellowship meal” with “mighty good throwdowns [food]” as a friend from Louisiana says.
We will also have “games”. For example, we will be destroying — yes with firearms — Complementarian/Patriarchy books. Muff Potter and the gents here see them at yard sales at discount prices.
Ishy will be giving a sermon, which thankless Comps wouldn’t let her do. So will LawProf.
Nancy2 wrote:
Kentucky bourbon will be fine.
@ Ken F:
re: john p’s poem:
he seems to think he’s a prophet. and oracle. maybe he’s doing automatic writing. believing he’s in spiritual mode, he takes pen and paper and let’s it happen. but nothing happens, so he starts writing something… then a little free association, and bob’s your uncle: “A beach ball. A Dog. A Log. A poodle. A Noodle. A doodle.” thus saith the lord.
GuyBehindtheCurtain wrote:
GBTC, I didn’t know you were from this area. It’s always strange when I see Paducah mentioned online… I always assume that nobody knows we’re here.
Totally OT: The old Coca-Cola plant in Paducah has been renovated, and contains a micro-brew pub and a hipster coffee shop, and will soon include a Mellow Mushroom and an ice cream shop. The building had been empty for years. So cool to see it come to life again.
Back OT: Attitudes about women do seem to be slow to change in this area. I’ve heard it said that, “Leadership in the church is a big deal, and that leadership is male.” That’s wrong, and unbiblical, in my opinion. At this point, we couldn’t be part of a church that held this view and silenced women. Or one that pressured us into a membership contract. So in this small town, our options are very limited.
Velour wrote:
And Nancy2 must have some time to speak. And if Gram3 can’t make it, perhaps we could Skype her in.
GSD wrote:
Gram3 invented our trademark dessert: Sacred Cow Sundae.
You betcha she and Gramp3 will be there.
GSD wrote:
She is our fearless leader. Plus she’s teaching us firearms. She’ll be having the floor a lot.
elastigirl wrote:
You may be onto something, maybe JP is taking a lesson from the old Greek oracles. They typically gave vague if not odd answers that had more caché and were obscure enough they could later be matched with any outcome.
elastigirl wrote:
and the lord is …
Velour wrote:
LOL
Velour wrote:
or a sing-around-the-campfire with a bonfire…
JYJames wrote:
Sing along works. But first, destruction of patriarchy books with fire arms. We need to get it out of our systems!
@ JYJames:
john p’s indulgent goofiness
the biggest problem with christians in America is that they take themselves far too seriously. john p just has a very very bad case of it.
Velour wrote:
Nancy2 is planning on making a fluttery-handed straw man to burn in effigy. Hoping Gram3 will do the honors of striking the match.
Nancy2 is also open to suggestions on how to make more representative straw men – and straw women.
@ Bill M:
kind of convenient. at this point, john p. would have no trouble convincing himself and his affected groupies that his “A beach ball. A Dog. A Log. A poodle. A Noodle. A doodle” means male headship.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:
The Drama Queen Diaries.
Nancy2 wrote:
Not a problem for people from the Paducah area. If they exclude us we don’t let them shop in stores with floors.
You’re talking with someone who used to drive through Wickcliffe to get to Missouri. With a side stop at “Ancient Buried City”. (Long closed.) Those bridges were just plain scary when I was a pre-teen. And have been to Columbus-Belmont State Park where they still have a part of the chain they tried to use to halt union ships traveling down the Mississippi River.
Oh, yeah I have also marched in the Fulton Banana Festival parade. Bonus points to anyone who knows why Fulton Ky has a Banana Festival without looking it up.
Now I’ll go back underground.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
We have a winner!
GuyBehindtheCurtain wrote:
My aunt lived in Baton Rouge for several years. Sometimes when she came home to visit, she would come via train. We had to go to Fulton to get her. ; )
GuyBehindtheCurtain wrote:
OK, I’m in California and I had to look it up.
“In about 1880 the Illinois Central Gulf Railroad was the first to develop refrigerated cars. TrainSuddenly those not living in tropical regions could have the same fruits year round that others enjoyed. Fulton, at the time, was home to a large railroad facility and became the redistribution point for the railroad because of its central location between New Orleans and Canada. The United Fruit Co, now Chiquita, began shipping bananas from South America by ship to New Orleans. The bananas were loaded onto railcars on top of 162 pound blocks of ice for the trip north. Fulton had the only ice house on the route north to Chicago.” http://www.thebananafestival.com/index.html
Besides having Sacred Cow Sundaes (Gram3 TM) at Camp Backbone, we can have Guy Behind the Curtain Banana Splits. GBTC is bringing the bananas!
@ Bill M:
elastigirl wrote: “i’m now self-employed in a 99% right-brain thing, doing what i know i was made to do.”
Bill M: “So often in the church, holiness was discussed strictly in terms of morality, do’s and don’ts. I prefer your approach.”
+++++++++++++++++++
you see holiness in my self-employment? or is it in doing something i was made to?
actually, i can’t relate to the word ‘holiness’. to me the bible is 100% vague on the subject, other than ascribing it to God in some nebulous sense.
but because christians have to be “biblical”, the professionals have to figure out what it means. and because they claim spiritual jurisdiction and responsibility for we the peons, they dictate requirements to us. like some very cumbersome, ill-fitting suit we have to wear. i’m sure that contributed to the drag on the engine of me (in my church years).
yes. so-called “holiness” means all manner of do’s and don’ts, many of them implied and inferred. but there was no mistaking it.
i thought it was all pretty silly. i could tell much of it was what they had heard at some recent conference, all under the influence of some guru. they would then all of sudden pass it off on us as something we all need to be doing (and how remiss we all have been). never mentioned it before, not till after some conference. but suddenly our legitimacy hinges on it. it was so clearly done without any critical thinking on their part. i lost respect for them. could no longer take them seriously.
so, holiness schmoliness. the word is all about being a pastor’s pawn.
elastigirl wrote:
Actually, the Bible is pretty clear on how sinful beings can have holiness from very early on, but it’s probably not exciting enough for book and speaking platforms. Can’t make money with it, and it bypasses the pastor’s authority, so can’t keep the minions in line with it.
“Abram believed the LORD, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Gen. 15:6
Velour wrote:
“All things in moderation…” (pun intended)
Lydia wrote:
He did not work for Lifeway.
His books were sold through Lifeway.
He went straight from his church in Brook Hills to the IMB.
I have appreciated this site and information that has been shared, but please be sure of your facts when you post/imply a critical remark.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
On the mark.
Velour wrote:
So do I. It almost isn’t worth the risk of trying any more.
Max wrote:
This is true. It was always hard to label “the SBC” because of priesthood of the believer and autonomous local churches. It is only post-conservative-takeover that you are seeing more and more lockstep, and the anti-women thing is largely limited to the neo-cal churches.
@ Nancy2:
Wow! I wouldn’t go either. When I do (rarely) go to church, I go to the local mega-church where I don’t have to worry about hearing theology or being noticed by anyone. The touchy-feely sermons are actually far healthier for me than most evangelical theology!
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Funny and sad at the same time.
overseas worker wrote:
Lydia is a commentor who comments often. I’m pretty sure she knows where Platt works and has stated such in the past. What you are referring to above is simply mistyped.
No need to get in a tizzy about it.
The bit below is what should have people in a tizzy:
Lydia wrote:
@ Lea:
Advice from Thom Rainer isn’t worth the paper it’s written on. He advises pastors to keep visits minimum to avoid burbout and offers a consultancy service of $250 a month for 24×7 availability – funded by the church members they don’t visit! That’s why I am a done.
Bridget wrote:
I will call Platt what he is a pretender of being Radical IMO. Nothing Radical about his life IMO.
Bridget wrote:
I still want to know why the IMB had to call home 1,000 missionaries.
@ overseas worker:
You are correct and I mistakenly typed Lifeway instead of IMB. LifeWay sponsored the Dubai event where Platt was risking his life at the Marriott.
@ Bridget:
I was shocked Platt was given the job. His “Radical” church, Brook Hills, did not participate in the Co-operative Program. After he was selected, Platt actually said, “I now see the beauty in the co-operative program”.
You can’t make this stuff up.
His big new job is not very Radical with its high salary, perks and plush offices. :o)
@ mot:
Actually, he made the over 50 career missionaries an offer they could not refuse. A Godfather sort of offer. Take it or it will be worse. Then sign a contract pledging not to talk about it. So much for his famous humble Opey Taylor act.
mot wrote:
Because they weren’t good little minions planting neo-Calvinist churches! They were doing things like talking about that Jesus guy who told people to do everything opposite of what they teach!
And money…
mot wrote:
Ideological purity.
Yes, a trustee reports on the assurances he got from David Platt during lengthy interviews for the IMB president job:
https://web.archive.org/web/20150609115245/http://www.thealabamabaptist.org/print-edition-article-detail.php?id_art=32332
“David is not a Calvinist”
“David resolutely affirmed he will not lead the IMB to be a Calvinistic organization”
“When our committee talked with David about this low amount for their CP giving, he sincerely acknowledged that he made a mistake in not supporting the CP at a better level and plans to correct it.”
“He pledged to become a passionate advocate of the CP.”
@ ishy:
are holiness and righteousness true synonyms? all in all i find holy, holiness too abstract for practical human application.
elastigirl wrote:
That’s probably true. But then, maybe we don’t need to understand it?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
This made me snort!
ishy wrote:
I think God is holy while we are to be faithful, if that makes more sense. I still think the same principle applies, that God imputes holiness on us when we have faith.
And I think most authoritarian churches are just wrong when they go on and on about God’s grace and how we’re worms, but then expect you to follow a bunch of rules. But for them to say “Have faith and it will be given to you” removes them from the relationship between God and men.
@ Jerome:
Oh my. Then one has to wonder why so intent on hooking up with the YRR movement? Money and fame? Sell books? Speaking gigs? He made bank off trashing the non Cals who allow a sinners prayer. Who takes up such a silly moot arguement as if it is a mortal sin and uses it to further their brand? He certainly has not had a similar problem with membership covenants.
Russ Moore’s Calvinist points moved up and down the scale depending on the audience. So did Ezell’s. I don’t believe a word from these guys. It’s all “positioning”, image and brand enhancement.
Jerome wrote:
This is the humble oh golly Opey Taylor act I mentioned earlier. But no problem if you are a Mohler man. Ezell’s mega, Highview, gave much much less than tiny rural churches in this state before and when he was appointed to NAMB. Seems they forgot it is listed in the Western Recorder. But it did not hurt Nonpersonal protege, Ezell, who was able to go on and spend millions of CP dollars to plant Acts 29 Mark Driscoll DNA churches.
@ Jerome:
You don’t have many critical thinking skills to be a trustee. Most of it is a dog and pony show. They only know what the entity employees present to them.
Zechzav wrote:
$$$$$$$
‘clearly biblical’ ???????
@ Ken F:
That’s my take. After they got rid of them (mostly non Cal career missionaries over 50) the tithing beaters got busy telling the pew sitters they were robbing God of the Great Commission and a new sort of missionary hiring program started. Either Platt was the figurehead dupe or he knowingly went along with it all.
@ ishy:
i see the word as a best attempt for ancient people to describe something as humongous as God. a suitably abstract word for an abstract concept. i agree, i don’t think we need to truly understand it (no one really does — it’s not the purpose of the word, as i see it).
to me it’s one of those silly putty words that can be used by a christian person of influence to get other people to do things or buy in to something, or for shock & awe (“see guys, i’m an insider with God, & what a privilege it is for you”). a tool of manipulation.
Christiane wrote:
I don’t think LufeWay is paying Rainer enoght to get by on. Someone listed the salaries a while back and I can’t remember the figure but it was somewhere between 250,000 and 500,000. Poor guy needed some relief.
@ Lydia:
all I can think of is that these guys want to ‘get theirs’ before they run the SBC into the ground …. like a lot of those business execs who get golden parachutes while destroying their companies
@ Christiane:
Exactly, Like the bankrupt green start ups that started on huge gov grants while the CEOs walked away as millionaires.
Ken F wrote:
LOL
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Yes.
And like JP’s son did in his blathering on about his divorce, the elder JP is setting himself up to be ahead of [in control of] the narrative of the fallout of his theological incrimination and persecution of divorcees, now that his own son is there.
Too bad [for his pity party] that TWW already went ahead and put out there the hypocrisy of it all.
Ken F wrote:
First let me say I prefer the interpretations others have already given. But seriously, he’s pipering the poetry of PSA. First 2 stanzas spoken by the Savior; subsequent stanzas sighed by the sinner.
@ ishy:
“I think God is holy while we are to be faithful, if that makes more sense. I still think the same principle applies, that God imputes holiness on us when we have faith.”
+++++++++++++++
but what is it, exactly, that is imputed to us? to me, if we don’t really understand the word, then ‘being imputed with it’ doesn’t mean much either.
i love practical. i love boiling things down to what’s practical. some things are irreducible, though. i’ve endured 101 too many sermons swirling with lofty language by a persuasive presenter and in the midst of it everyone seems to be buying into it, “Yes!” “Amen!”….. and then driving home it’s “huh….what am i supposed to do with all that?”
and then a few minutes later it all evaporates, can’t remember anything that was said, and i go on with my day with the maxim of treating people the way i want to be treated (successfully or not).
…i’m monologuing here…
Velour wrote:
Some of the best snipers ever were Russian women. The Wehrmacht found out the hard way.
elastigirl wrote:
I meant the latter but appreciate the former also.
There was a news show, it may have been 60 minutes, way back in the 80s. The story was about trying to teach abstinence in inner city high schools, it was a failure. A later segment was about a school that specialized in music where the kids applied themselves, sought after excellence. Groups of them went performed on tour and at the same these inner city kids needed to maintain academic standards. It was presented as just a side note, they had no problems with teen pregnancy.
So while I have done a poor job of relating the stories, it was decades ago, there appeared to be a strong link between doing something you were made for and an upright life. The lesson to me was which one followed and which one to focus on.
elastigirl wrote:
Ask the big name gurus, and round’ and round’ they’ll go in circles of large and small radii.
Bill M wrote:
Also with seeking to accomplish what you were made for and basic survival. Victor Frankle wrote about this in “Mans Search for Meaning” after his time in Auschwitz . It is that important. We were designed to accomplish things within our individual capacity.
<Dave A A wrote:
How many translators does it take to figure out Piper. :o)
(Deep unto Deep)
Bill M wrote:
Good point Bill M. I too believe the linkage is there. Without any connection to practical real-life reality in a vocational sense, ‘holiness’ is nothing more than Piperesque drivel.
Muff Potter wrote:
Good to know. I’m part Russian.
Ken F wrote:
Ha ha. Good one!
Lydia wrote:
Of course! It’s easy to see beauty in something when his own considerable paycheck and all of the perks depend on it!
@ Bill M:
Thx. Good word.
Nancy2 wrote:
What a silly comment by Platt.
Zechzav wrote:
For the obvious leadership essentials nowadays:
– private plane + pilot
– estate, entertaining
– beachfront, writing/renewal
– import, image
– health club, eternal youth
– etc.
Lydia wrote:
I think it’s because he built his identity on retranslating the Bible. “Unless a man be born again into a Christian Hedonist, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” is the prime example.
Dave A A wrote:
And from this we know that Jesus was the best christian hedonist ever: http://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/was-jesus-a-christian-hedonist. I’m thinking Piper crossed the line into clear heresy on this one, but I don’t have a “Dr” in front of my name like he does.
Ken F wrote:
Too bad women aren’t in on this one – the hedonism experience – as they submit to their hedonistic (a life devoted to the pursuit of pleasure and self-gratification) husbands’ patriarchy, because this is their gender-specific calling as Christians. (He – the hedonistic abundant ego-pleasure life, She – deny yourself)
Apparently, the son’s wife didn’t buy it, and opted out of the deal wherein the husband is a hedonist, and the wife becomes a masochist, sustaining a painful marriage on her back to uphold this “theology”.
mot wrote:
Silly because it is so revealing.
Dave A A wrote:
Bingo. Then he preached that ‘Jesus’ “scream” on the cross was the scream of the damned’.
Ken F wrote:
Can anybody out there find solid scriptural support for half of what he says?
I have wondered what is in that tea his wife serves.
Lydia wrote:
Here is a fairly recent example: http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/lesbian-sex-hiv-esau-and-christ
It’s in the last paragraph. I wonder if Piper’s bible includes Psalm 22:24.
Lydia wrote:
I tried to paste a link from Piper where he states this, but the title of the link put my comment in a time-out.
Lydia wrote:
When CJ Mahaney needed to avoid the scrutiny of the elders at CLC, Mark Dever suddenly no longer saw the biblicality/biblicalness/beauty/gospelpeliciousness of church discipline and all of the other essential Nine Marks. Fear not, Little Pewpeons, all of the 9Marks still apply to you, however, and you shall be keyed in and keyed out as duly affirmed or dis-affirmed citizens of the Kingdom.
When you make up the Rules and you are the Rulers, you get to decide when the Rules apply to you and your Favored Ones, and that is exactly Never. And when you offer transparently lame excuses, The Matter Is Settled And May Never Be Brought Up Again. See also Matt Chandler in the Karen Hinckley debacle and the attempt to bring back Grudem and Ware and Owen BHLH back into the fold of Nicene orthodoxy via their recent Damascene conversion to Eternal Generation which somehow they have missed all these years (though they still cling to ESS.)
Nancy2 wrote:
People can make the Bible say just about anything if they have the title, delivery and gravitas. Did you ever read a Psalm that mapped to necklines and Jesus as a fertility god? Piper did. He has 889,227 twitter followers! Not all of them are following just to see what madness he posted today. They revere him.
https://spiritualsoundingboard.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/screen-shot-2013-01-08-at-7-18-35-pm.png
Piper is the Chauncey Gardiner of the Neo Cals.
Lydia wrote:
I do not think Platt is a dupe, but I may be mistaken because I do checkers and not chess. Somebody is going to be the next Mohler, and I think the next 10-20 years is an extended tryout for that position. It will be an interesting time, I think, if there is much of an SBC left.
Zechzav wrote:
Caveat Emptor applies to all of these people. i’m about to the point where I think church consultants should be banned.
Gram3 wrote:
Well not exactly never, testimony here has indicated if their trespass is particularly egregious they will get sidelined for a “season”, a christianese word for 6 months or less.
Lea wrote:
THING 1: thom Rainer is selling influence …. he takes a person ‘twenty-four seven’ under his wing for ‘counsel’ but they expect a whole lot more for their investment, if you ask me …. to get ‘known’ by ‘the Great Rainer’ and be under his wing gives bragging rights in the ‘kissing up and kicking down’ world of big name celebrity clerics …. an expensive stepping-stone, yes, but one that many are apparently willing to pay in order to gain ‘benefits’ of becoming known and being ‘led into all truth’ yeah (sarcasm major)
Let’s face it: $ 250/month is not an amount casually paid by a modest humble pastor …. it is likely paid by someone on the move upward, needing connections, needing to become known on a first name basis by a big name in the bu$ine$$ ….. and my goodness, these consultants are right there to take in the money and offer their ‘services’ in exchange …. fame game, influence-peddling, becoming a willing toady to a form of chri$tianity wear the patrons are $ealed with the $ign of the almighty dollar instead of the Cross of Our Lord
Christiane wrote:
THING 2:
We instinctively know that something is wrong with this and that something is horribly wrong with the ‘advice’ to ‘keep visits to a minimum to avoid burnout’
We know that because we who are in the Body of Christ have something really solid to compare Rainer’s ‘alternative christianity’ to. And Who was our ‘conscultant’ but the Holy Spirit Who points us to Christ as model and teacher-by-example.
We ‘KNOW’ instinctively that Rainer is bullsh&* because we have a moral guide in our consciences that bristles when Rainer’s ‘advice’ is compared to REAL Christianity in action.
Gram3 wrote:
So true.
Christiane wrote:
Gifts.
– The Gift of the Holy Spirit himself.
– The gifts of the Spirit given to the church via each member (1 – Cor. 12. Rom. 12, Eph. 4)
– The gift of Jesus, God’s Son, coming to Earth, our example, our mentor
– The gift of Jesus, as our Messiah and Savior
Who charges/pays for a gift?
Money changers in the Temple?
Lea wrote:
I think it’s part of their grand plan to dumb down both pastors and pewpeons. I think they are working to convince everyone “below” them to feel a sense of dependency – an inability to carry out church ministries without purchased resources. The plethora of articles pumped out daily by so many of these “ministries” are designed to make pastors and pewpeons feel incompetent and needy. It seems to be working, except for the dones.
Ken F wrote:
Insightful.
Ken F wrote:
Just like being admitted through the gates of an amusement park. …….. you won’t get through the Pearly Gates without paying admittance and getting their trademark ink stamp on your hand.
Something akin to the mark of the beast?
Gram3 wrote:
The Game of Thrones waiting for the King to kick off?
Ken F wrote:
Piper worships Sam Kinison?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Czmb6tEwFE8
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
It may already be happening, but when the money really begins to slow down from the pew sitters in the SBC those that have been living off these monies will panic.
Lydia wrote:
Just like the Dot-Com Startups of 10-15 years before
Lydia wrote:
If you can stomach it, you’ll see Piper say it at 2-minute mark on this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZgrI2qPifk. The you get to see Mahaney after Piper.
Lydia wrote:
This is the longer version of the video: https://vimeo.com/5293162. I could not stand to watch it, but this quote attributed to RC Sproul is on the page (I am not sure that Sproul actually said or wrote it):
I’m pretty sure the Council of Nicea would have condemned that quote as heresy.
Ken F wrote:
I share your opinion.
@ Christiane:
I wonder what they think of this verse: 2 Corinthians 5:19 –
“Namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself”
It sounds like God was in Christ when the reconciliation was happening. Maybe they think the cross was not part of the reconciliation process?
@ Bill M:
“There was a news show, it may have been 60 minutes, way back in the 80s. The story was about trying to teach abstinence in inner city high schools, it was a failure. A later segment was about a school that specialized in music where the kids applied themselves, sought after excellence. Groups of them went performed on tour and at the same these inner city kids needed to maintain academic standards. It was presented as just a side note, they had no problems with teen pregnancy.
… a strong link between doing something you were made for and an upright life.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
dang, Bill M, that’s really awesome. i love it! so inspiring. and talk about practical!
@ Ken F:
I suspect that they think a ‘nature’ died on the Cross instead of a ‘Person’. I have heard that some of the neo-Cal believe that only the human nature of Christ died and not His Divine Nature. I think that they reject that God in the Second Person of the Holy Trinity died on the Cross and rose three days later.
I also don’t think they have an orthodox comprehension of the importance of the Incarnation. I know that a kind of orthodox understanding exists among Protestants who are mainline because of this from Dietrich Bonhoeffer on the Incarnation:
” We now know that we have been taken up and borne in the humanity of Jesus, and therefore that new nature we now enjoy means that we too must bear the sins and sorrows of others. The incarnate Lord makes His followers the brothers and sisters of all humanity. The “philanthropy” of God (Titus 3:4) revealed in the Incarnation is the ground of Christian love toward all on earth that bear the name of human. The form of Christ incarnate makes the Church into the Body of Christ. All the sorrows of humanity falls upon that form, and only through that form can they be borne. The earthly form of Christ is the form that died on the cross. The image of God is the image of Christ crucified. It is to this image that the life of the disciples must be conformed: in other words, they must be conformed to His death (Phil. 3:10; Rom. 6:4). The Christian life is a life of crucifixion.”
(Dietrich Bonhoeffer)
I don’t know how far the neo-Cal folk are from orthodox Christianity, but from much of the writings of their gurus, I suspect there is a great breach indeed, with a great rift separating them from even traditional Southern Baptist teachings on many important theological issues.
Ken F wrote:
Jesus and the Holy Spirit disintermediated the Temple Economic System which was not the Abrahamic faith or even the Mosaic faith. Ever since the Ascension, there have been folks busy trying to insert themselves as mediators and purveyors of all manner of necessary accessories which Jesus and the Holy Spirit did not supply. Said willing and humble mediators and suppliers are willing to do so for reasonable and customary fees, of course. Double honor because they will give account and so forth and so on. Because Keys.
Ken F wrote:
See also: Conferences. Most of them seem completely useless.
Ken F wrote:
Sproul said it, IIRC, at T4g in 2006. To much applause. I was stunned when I heard the audio.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I live in a pop culture cave, but I will take your word for it.
Gram3 wrote:
Wow. Thanks for confirming. I did not realize Sproul was that far gone.
Ken F wrote:
In my experience, they interpret that to mean that God was in fact reconciling the world in the crucifixion of the God-Man, Jesus Christ. The part they choke on is “the world” which gets a bendy-twisty definition. Again, in my experience which includes a fair number of 5-pointers.
But maybe I’ve missed the point, as often happens.
@ Lydia:
“We were designed to accomplish things within our individual capacity.”
++++++++++++++
you mean i don’t have to be an extrovert befriending every new person who comes to church, showing my full support of every bible study and small group, giving all of my time, talent, and treasure to church, always doing more more more at church so as not to waste my life for God?
(i mean, i know the answer)
-who’s going to partner with the God of the universe to cure diseases?
-to write the next most beautiful music in the world to shake people to their core?
-to write fiction that reaches what’s locked up and dormant in people?
-to express art, dance, theater, and film with higher and deeper access to raw talent, -inspiration and integrity?
-to find the best alternative to fossil fuels?
-to devise miracle strategy to solve world hunger?
-to make discoveries yet to be made?
-to solve problems no one’s been able to solve?
they’re all in church, giving it all to church. pressured, manipulated & guiltified into giving of their time, talent, and treasure to feed the church’s hungry and demanding machine. for its own sake. it all stays there.
this is so wrong. so selfish on the part of the institution. so short-sighted & so stupid.
Christiane wrote:
When theology inserts itself between faithful disciples and their God, anything can happen, and it does. 1 Timothy 2:5
Gram3 wrote:
Exactly, said even better than my above comment.
Lea wrote:
A growth industry in Christendom, however useful, or not.
Christiane wrote:
I don’t remember the name of THAT Heresy, but it’s definitely on the list.
@ JYJames:
JYJames wrote:
It seems that these ministries are taking the idea of treating the congregation as “sheep” a little too literally, and teaching the “sheep” to view themselves ever more as such. A while back I saw one YRR pastor get in trouble for some contemptuous and smug remarks about the stupidity of the “sheep” in his church, and how that blind trust in the leadership worked to his own advantage.
I think far too many people forget the mindset Jesus prescribes for his sheep: “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.” Matthew 10:16
Instead, it seems we are constantly being programmed to be shrewd as doves, and innocent as snakes, following the pioneering example set forth by the Big Names in ministry.
Gram3 wrote:
This.
Ken F wrote:
Sproul has a radio slot here in Southern Cal. on which he extols reformed thought as the only valid way of understanding the incarnation.
Theirs really is a sick and twisted religion.
The Man who Wasn’t Thursday wrote:
Meh. More like mutton, lamb chops.
elastigirl wrote:
This is how I started feeling about ten years ago, but couldn’t quite put my finger on it. Three years ago, when the most recent church was in meltdown because of said “leaders,” I had enough. Looked around for a new home church, but found authoritarianism everywhere. Haven’t been to a “church” in 18 months.
I’ve started working again and have also recently become a CASA (Court Appointed Special Advocate) for children removed from their parents for whatever reason. I’m hoping to help make a difference where children really need it. This seems much more practical than trying to get people to try to serve their own children in Sunday School, or trying to get church men and women to understand the need for safeguards around children in church facilities. So done with Sunday morning church.
Bridget wrote:
Wonderful to hear that you’re a C.A.S.A.!
Good for you. The children need advocates like you.
Yes, Done with the goldfish bowl mentality of church.
Bridget wrote:
I recently did some work for the local CASA and mentioned what they did to a colleague. He was a gruff devil may care type, but his reaction surprised me. He said, “man I sure could have used them when I was a kid”, he went on to describe a messy home life and custody battle that left scars. You just never know. Here’s to making a difference.
Bill M wrote:
Good for you too Bill M. and volunteering for C.A.S.A.
The police just descended a few weeks ago on my neighbors. Huge drug bust.
The parents were dealing in front of their two small children, whom Child Protective
Services took into custody. I hope some C.A.S.A. advocates are assigned to these children. They will need them. They didn’t stand a chance to escape this life with two parents entrenched in it and making it ok for the kids. (An older, adult child from the mother’s prior marriage is involved in it too. Some parents have NO shame. Sigh.)
@ Headless Unicorn Guy</b:
I didn't realize they were gov financed.
@ Gram3:
Yes. There has to be something worthwhile to inherit and reign over as the Baptist Pope.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I don’t think that Nature=Person in Trinitarian thinking. I believe that the Second Person had/has two Natures in orthodox theology. There are various ways of thinking about how the “had/has” part of that works out, and the crucifixion is certainly a big part of that.
The Man who Wasn’t Thursday wrote:
This would not be happening in the American church if the sheep prayed as they ought and were immersed in the Word. The pew simply cannot trust the pulpit these days without having a filter of discernment that comes through prayer and a disciplined study of Scripture. Believers need to be continually testing the spirits about them; wolves are in the sheepfold. The YRR “pastor” you refer to was a false shepherd who cared not for the sheep – the devil used him to ‘his’ advantage.
@ Max:
“This would not be happening in the American church if the sheep prayed as they ought and were immersed in the Word. The pew simply cannot trust the pulpit these days without having a filter of discernment that comes through prayer and a disciplined study of Scripture.”
++++++++++++++++++++
while i do agree that these activities can be helpful, they can also be a liability serving to reinforce goofy ideas, harmful ideas, sick and twisted ideas.
Not losing common sense and intuition is vital
my feeling is that a reason these ideas take hold in the first place is that people lose hold of common sense & intuition. inherent in a message about trust in ‘other’ (trust in an invisible God, a book, a leader, an institution, the people in the institution) is the message of distrust in oneself.
how many times have we all heard not to trust our feelings?
i for one would not have lost 10, 15 years of quality of life (to put it very mildly) if i had not turned down my intuition every time it made noise, considering it suspect. and maybe the devil! (ha! how silly)
but it was all done with such earnestness, in so sincerely and genuinely wanting to live for God. the christian party line in the mouth of persuasive people with the mic messed it all up. i let them, of course —
but, holy smokes, the whole thing is so ripe for that. earnestly (desperately) wanting to know an invisible God (talk about The Final Frontier!), (talk about vulnerable), an official who seems to have credibility and the needed information, a group of others affirming it all and me in the process.
@ Max:
the years of deepest dysfunction in 1st Church of Dysfunction, and then in Toxicity Church were the years of my most concentrated praying and bible reading.
Gram3 wrote:
Indeed so. My thinking is, of course, possibly off center, but I think that man is not saved by doctrine/theology alone, even if it has been labeled as orthodox/traditional doctrine/theology. I have found no reason to even suspect that mistakes in thinking have not been made along the way–all along the way even. We have, it seems to me, too little revelation and too much speculation in some areas of doctrine for anybody to consider just all sorts of things their hill to die on.
@ elastigirl:
On the subject of prayer:What goes on in seminaries makes it to churches. As part of ESS, Bruce Ware was teaching/writing a while back that we shouldn’t pray to Christ. there was a whole bunch of gobbledygook “reasoning” that he presented with exclusions but I remember the confusion that idea caused in several places. Such digression. It is all exhausting. So unnecessary.
People do check their intuitive senses at the door.
okrapod wrote:
Yes. Too much focus on the ‘how’and not on the Who?
Lydia wrote:
I have not read any of Bruce Ware, and I do not plan to, but that idea is not new. In John 16 Jesus does seem to say that he is not planning to ask the Father on our behalf but that rather we are to play to the Father ourselves in Jesus’ name (whatever ‘in…name’ means). So at one end of the continuum is Ware and at the other end there is the idea that Mary and the saints also can be prayed to as mediators. This then gets complicated in thinking about intercessory prayer, which people do right much, and the big question is: Where To Draw The Line.
I am so sick and tired of issues and issues and issues, but IMO the time is here sure enough to rethink a lot of stuff, and this is one.
@ okrapod:
pray, not play
@ okrapod:
As another blogger I know pointed out years ago; They keep giving me problems I don’t have. :o) one thing I noticed about the Neo Cal ESS folks is they rarely separated the Incarnation timeframe out from pre Incarnation or post Ascension.
IMO, From what we know about the character of Yahweh, I don’t think He gets hung up so much on how we pray to Him as the One True God/Father,Son,Holy Spirit. I do question whether He is thrilled with us praying to dead humans, though.
Lydia wrote:
They mostly weren’t.
Same pattern, different source for the Other People’s Money.
Max wrote:
I think some of the best advice is to NOT go to church or any church activities for two months and to mix with ‘outsiders’, live life.
It is surprising how many times when away from group think for a period of time people finally come to their senses.
It is amazing how God has used illness many times to give people a break from high control groups and to ‘come to their senses’ and say ‘no’. This was my own case. I was acutely ill with a serious lung condition for several months, getting only 2 hours of sleep a night, I couldn’t attend church or any activities for several months because of my non-stop coughing.
When the chairman of the elder board called me for yet another ‘meeting’, to ‘discipline’ me on yet another trumped up charge, I said, “No.” He threw a hissy fit and banned me from church. I was physically wiped out from illness, I had been in and out of the hospital, I had been have twice weekly breathing treatments at a medical center, and I had nothing left to give anyone. His demands of me were selfish and I called him on it. He pulled rank.
^ should say, “been having” in the last paragraph
Muff Potter wrote:
There can be No Salvation outside of Calvin?
Velour wrote:
Though I was never that isolated in the Church Bubble, that’s sorta what happened to me when I discovered SF fandom and D&D.
And doesn’t Judaism put great importance on “Just Live Your Life”?
The Man who Wasn’t Thursday wrote:
In the words of the prophet Naked Pastor:
https://i2.wp.com/nakedpastor.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/lamb-thoughts.jp
The Man who Wasn’t Thursday wrote:
In the words of the prophet Naked Pastor:
https://i2.wp.com/nakedpastor.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/lamb-thoughts.jpg
(Correct link)
@ okrapod:
“I think that man is not saved by doctrine/theology alone, even if it has been labeled as orthodox/traditional doctrine/theology. … We have, it seems to me, too little revelation and too much speculation in some areas of doctrine for anybody to consider just all sorts of things their hill to die on.”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I have a friend who doesn’t recall ever praying a sinner’s prayer, ever ‘asking Jesus into his heart’…. no event at all, no procedure or formula.
no middleman telling him what to do and how to do it.
just a long process of his own honest wondering about God/Jesus/Holy Spirit, talking to God/Jesus/Holy Spirit, reading the bible… God/Jesus/Holy Spirit responding back.
he has a very strong faith, & lively ‘relationship’ with God/Jesus/Holy Spirit. it just grew like any relationship.
if were going to anthropomorphize God, why make him out to be a pedantic rulesman listmaker controlfreak with a clipboard and pencil checking off boxes? what a silly image.
perhaps we ‘create’ God in OUR own image. perhaps we anthropomorphize based on our own wiring (or neuroses!).
all in all, I think God is far too big to be contained in the bible. I think God is ready and willing to respond to even the slightest human inquiry, whether straight-jacketed with protocol or naked and free of such things.
but these aren’t new ideas here.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Spot on!
elastigirl wrote:
Your whole post is excellent and I am sure you are correct; Jeremiah 29:13
“You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.”
Sometimes I am amazed at the things people believe about God, even people who all say they “believe the Bible.” My husband turns on TBN once in a while just to check out who is doing what and I just sit there and think, if there is a God who designed, created and sustains this universe, how could anyone think he would behave in such ridiculous ways? or be concerned with such ridiculous things? We do indeed form God in the image we know and can understand, everything from cosmic used car salesman to cruel and petty tyrant. I wonder sometimes how many people are just aware that they cannot fathom God and are open to seeing and learning and okay with the fact that He does not fit into a box they can define. And I also wonder how he holds anyone accountable. I trust that he does but I look at human beings and we are so pitiful, blind and foolish. We don’t really understand much, we don’t know much as to why we do what we do. It’s all such a mystery.
@ siteseer:
and, I guess, to add a little more on this thought, the thing that astounds me the most are those who find themselves competent to stand before everyone else and act as God’s mouthpiece. They have such confidence to speak for God, to define him, to direct everyone else as to what they should think and do. The older I get, the more ludicrous it seems.
Velour wrote:
I wish I could give this 100 thumbs up. The best thing that happened to me since I began going to church was to get outside of it. You just don’t realize how “off” or ridiculous much of it is until you see it from the outside. It’s really embarrassing to see things I supported in the past from the vantage point of outside the bubble.
He should have been asking what he could do to help you! It seems like many of us have to get to that point of being incapable of going on before we can see our way clear to just leave. Amazing what we put up with and for how long.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
(Worried this has already been discussed, but)
Tallahassee pastor and author of “I Need A Man” Jermaine Simmons took the whole Naked Pastor thing literally. While Mrs Parishoner (who perhaps took his book title literally) and he were working on church monkey business, Mr Parishoner came home unexpectedly and chased him out at gunpoint.
http://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/2017/01/30/tallahassee-pastors-tryst-spotlight/97135232/
But no worries– it’s all good!!
“What I want from God, I have already received – that’s his forgiveness, ” Simmons said in his address. “What I am asking of our members is your prayers and your forgiveness.”
In response, the congregation stood and applauded for several minutes.
siteseer wrote:
That’s because it is spiritually ludicrous! New Calvinists, and other authoritarian leaders, will never teach their followers Biblical doctrines of priesthood of the believers and soul competency … they don’t want you to know that every believer is a priest and competent to stand before God to hear Him directly.
Velour wrote:
Amen! Sometimes the Church within the church needs to come out from the thing to be refreshed in the Spirit. Organized religion, with authoritarian leaders, is exhausting.
elastigirl wrote:
I believe because of your faithfulness to pray and read the Word, the Lord was giving you a check in the Spirit to come out from the authoritarian abuses you encountered, as you note in your previous comment “if i had not turned down my intuition every time it made noise.”
@ siteseer:
Thank you for your kind reply.
Here’s a thought I have on the subject of prayer. There is an obsession with doing things “the right way” more than on the whole point of prayer: communing with God.
Jesus knew that we don’t really know how to pray much of the time. He offered us “the Lord’s prayer” as an example but he didn’t present it as “you better pray exactly like this or God will not listen to you!” He also used the example of the Pharisee and tax collector showing the value of sincerity and self-awareness in prayer. He told us meaningless repetition of words is of no benefit and that God isn’t impressed by long prayers. And Paul said, “we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.”
It’s like trying to watch and analyze your feet while you are walking. “In Him we live and move and have our being.” “He knows what we need before we ask.” “There is a friend who is closer than a brother.” But if we don’t say the magical abacadabra correctly, he’ll turn up his nose and turn his back on us? I think not.
Praying to dead people confounds me because no human being is omniscient or omnipresent; only God can is there and hears. But God is able to hear the cry of the heart and knows the sincerity of the seeker.
@ siteseer:
What do you think happens to someone in the Body of Christ when they die? Do you believe that they have ceased to be a functioning part of the Body of Christ?
Seems that questions of ‘what happens’ to us after death are answered differently among various branches of the Christian family, especially in regards to views on ‘time’ intersecting with ‘eternity’. 🙂
Short off-topic update.
Jeannette still needs help paying her mid-month bills.
She also needs to buy a new couch, $300, as she had a severe back injury years ago
and her couch is worn out. She needs the support for her back.
Latest update – 2/11/17
I will need food in a day or so.
February’s bills are coming due and I have part of them covered – still need $250.
I am still looking for ways to get transportation and a couch.
Healthwise, have been hurting the last couple days, but not too bad. This will pass.
Thank you for your continued prayer and support. You guys overwhelm me (in a good way).
http://www.gofundme.com/ljahelp
okrapod wrote:
I am suspect of anyone who thinks they have all the answers. Not people who think they are right, because we sort of all do that, but people who think they truly KNOW in a way that others don’t. Probably a lot of doctrine is wrong and we won’t know till later. Through a mirror darkly, and all that.
The ‘hill to die on’ is how we treat others.
@ Christiane:
My question is this:
Do fundamentalist-evangelical people believe that the communion of saints means there is a union between the dead and the living within the Body of Christ? Or do they believe that the union of those within the Body of Christ is severed by death?
?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I grew up in church, but as an adult I was never that tethered…so it’s harder to understand how people get so stuck in these things. I try to listen and learn.
Off-topic announcement.
Shauna thanks everyone for their continued prayers for her and her son Billy in Texas.
The help she received through the GoFundMe account has allowed her to buy groceries for her and Billy and to fill her car with gas to get to work.
She is still working part-time at the grocery store. They have her working nights on Valentine’s Day desserts, such as decorating cakes.
Please also pray for a new/used washing machine for Shauna and Billy. Theirs broke.
@ Max:
could be. although it wasn’t until i put the bible on the shelf and decided to take an indefinite break from praying that i began to…. breath fresher air, i guess you could say. a number of metaphors come to mind. but cool, fresh, invigorating, oxygen-rich air best describes it.
@ Christiane:
Fundamentalists and evangelicals are not the same, and as far as I know they would not be the same on this issue, it being taken into consideration that there is no ‘catechism of the protestant church’ and no system for ensuring that all evangelicals or all fundamentalists believe the same thing, much less agree with each other across the fundamentalist vs evangelical divide.
I have run into the idea that the idea of communion of the saints as understood by the catholic church is something they disagree with-meaning as it refers to death. But we have already talked about issues in the creed on which there is disagreement. I have also run into the idea that said communion can be understood as applicable to the idea that believers of different denominational persuasion can associate with each other in the area of ecumenism. I have also heard the idea that one should not ‘commune’ with the dead under the scriptural prohibition of trying to conjure up the dead–think Saul and the witch of Endor.
I have never personally met any fundamentalist or conservative but non-fundamentalist or moderate protestant who did or promoted prayer involving dead people. I have heard official and formal prayers at a funeral commending some soul to God and asking God’s mercy. That is as close as I have heard somebody come to praying for the dead and certainly not invoking the prayers of the dead for some cause.
@ okrapod:
On, I need to address your specific use of the word union. Union and communion are not identical ideas. I am thinking that what the protestants I have known object to is that there would be some form of communication between the living and the dead. Protestants do not mostly think that people cease to exist at death is that is what you are asking.
@ okrapod:
@ okrapod:
Thank you for these explanations, OKRAPOD. All I have of familiarity with the ‘Protestant’ burial service is with the beautiful and triumphant Anglican burial service.
I’m glad to hear that some other denominations also call upon the mercy of God for the soul of the one who has departed and commending the soul of the departed one to God. That is very reassuring.
As to ‘union’ and ‘communion’, I think I see a greater connection between the meaning of both than you see, but that is a topic for another day. Thanks again. Your help is always appreciated 🙂
@ Velour:
Love to Shauna and Billy
Bridget wrote:
God BLESS you for doing this, Bridget. 🙂
elastigirl wrote:
Agreed. I’m convinced that the Almighty is not hampered with pettiness, concerned with formulaic #orse$#|+, or even a so-called ‘Biblical’ approach. I’m a father and a grandfather who is tickled pink when the kids and grandkids just wanna’ talk. So dispense with the groveling and self-deprecation, just talk to him. God’s thrilled to hear from his beloved humans period.
I have no desire to bask in their (kid’s and grandkid’s) achievements or to aggrandize myself through them, they are their own glories with accolades rightfully theirs.
How’s that for anthropomorphism?
@ Muff Potter:
“How’s that for anthropomorphism?”
++++++++++++++++++
if that’s not a fairly accurate representation, then we’d all be better off as agnostic on the matter of God.
but i especially like the word #orse$#|+.
Max wrote:
I’m starting to think that the problem with contemporary American Christianity isn’t that it’s too American, but rather that it’s no longer American enough. Everything’s been taken over by European-style authoritarians and academic elitists. The same thing’s happened in our political climate. I don’t believe America was ever intended to be a European-style nation, but somehow it has become one, and liberals and conservatives both share the blame.
Maybe the way to start fixing this is to move out to the country. I think we’ve become far too urbanized and Westernized for our own good (I don’t identify with Western civilization nor do I think Americans ought to; I like to say that the only West I have any use for is the Wild one).
Christiane wrote:
I think I understand the RCC position on this, and I agree with the aspect that God is the God of the living and therefore there is a communion of living and “dead” saints (the name the Bible gives to all believers, not just special ones). But I also see the Bible saying that the dead in Christ are asleep. I’m not sure exacatly what that means, but I get the sense that our relationship with “dead” saints is probably more like our relationships with sleeping people – not much meaningful dialogue possible. But that is just my thinking on this right now.
siteseer wrote:
This is the aspect of the YRR movement that is probably doing more harm than anything else. The YRR emphasis on getting things right is freaking people out and turning them into perpetual worriers, fretting whether or not they are getting it right on a myriad of topics. And as soon as you think you are getting some things right they point out many other areas where you are not. I don’t think that is the yoke Jesus encouraged us to take on.
@ siteseer:
“I wonder sometimes how many people are just aware that they cannot fathom God and are open to seeing and learning and okay with the fact that He does not fit into a box they can define.”
++++++++++++
mystery… i don’t see what’s so intolerable about it. so tiring trying to figure out the unfigureable. quite a time-waster. and energy-waster. and other-peoples’-money-waster.
——
” I look at human beings and we are so pitiful, blind and foolish. We don’t really understand much, we don’t know much as to why we do what we do. It’s all such a mystery.”
++++++++++++++
hmmm…. i look at human beings and i see wonderful things. i see kindness & generosity extended to strangers, i see a desire to do what’s right and honest, i see compassion. (aside from a minority of exceptions). I see people everywhere who have nothing to gain from doing these things, but are happily doing them anyway.
christians are in their own category here (a group i am a member of in theory in practice). some are amongst the most wonderful people in the world. far too many are colossal disappointments, egregiously so. it wouldn’t be so bad if they didn’t project themselves as the elite corps of human beings, and didn’t have every reason to do what is right, good, & kind for its own sake. as it is, hypocrisy is automatically part of their conduct in direct proportion.
@ Bridget:
“I’ve started working again and have also recently become a CASA (Court Appointed Special Advocate) for children removed from their parents for whatever reason. I’m hoping to help make a difference where children really need it. This seems much more practical than trying to get people to try to serve their own children in Sunday School, or trying to get church men and women to understand the need for safeguards around children in church facilities.
++++++++++++++++
oh my – that really says it all.
you’re a great person, bridget.
elastigirl wrote:
Eh, maybe you just stopped talkin’ and started listenin’.
@ Nancy2:
maybe unconsciously so. but listenin’ was too much work. to me, the harder i try to listen (to anyone or anything) the less I take in.
i think i just stopped trying so [dang] hard. and embraced just “being”.
Thank you, thank you, thank you for posting about Clayton Jennings!
siteseer wrote:
Siteseer, in my experience such statements were the windup to Anti-Catholic sneers.
And that’s the first thing I think of when I hear them.
I especially remember one from my not-a-cult days:
“Then why don’t you pray to me? I’m a saint.”
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Anti-catholic sneers do happen. Anti-fundamentalist sneers do happen. Sometimes people have legitimate issues with either catholicism or fundamentalism, but sometimes they do not.
I trust that it is perfectly obvious to all what I am saying. We all do need to be nicer to each other.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Isn’t that shame censoring? It was within topic. Is Catholic practice off limits and protected? It seems to be here. Yet There is a Catholic here who is constantly pointing out things in the evangelical world. So not sure why Catholic practice off limits. I just don’t use love bombing tactics when I point things out. I just don’t do syrupy. But it does work on many.
Christiane wrote:
Siteseer wasn’t commenting on what happens to people when they die. He/she commented on praying to people who have died. “Do people who have died now have the power to answer prayer like God does” was what she/he seemed to be questioning.
I agree with others that if we can discuss all veins of Protestantism no other Religion, or vein thereof, should be off the table. Personally, I don’t see “much” bashing going on; just the occasional. I have seen it from all camps, certainly not toward just one perspective.
mot wrote:
siteseer wrote:
It is never a consensual relationship when clergy have sex with congregants. It is always harmful when a pastor has sex with a member of his church. There is an imbalance of power, therefore, there is no consent. Also, it is a pastor’s job to protect those he serves, never to use for self-satisfaction. Anytime clergy engage in a sexual relationship with a member of his church, it is not an affair. There is no consent. It is an abuse of power and he disqualified himself from that position.
Shauna wrote:
If you do, you get on America’s Dumbest Criminals.