"Marie, we love you in Christ and our hearts ache for the consequences of your choices in your own life and in your family. We are praying that God would lift the blinding effects of your sin and help you to recognize your sin and repent of it so that you might be restored."
HBC Elders (in letter below)
How reprehensible that during this Christmas season the Board of Elders at Heritage Bible Chapel are making an incredible demand of Marie, whose testimony we featured in our post entitled Are Pastors at Heritage Bible Chapel Re-Abusing Wives Harmed in Abusive Marriages?
To recap the story, Marie married a native Bulgarian, and during their 20 years of marriage she endured terrible emotional and psychological abuse, which became increasingly worse. Here is an excerpt from the previous post:
Desperate to get away from the tyranny, Marie gave up almost all of the assets to which she was entitled in a mediated divorce. On February 1, 2016, Marie left with her car and personal belongings.
In March 2016, Marie went to her two pastors and told them she had left her ex-husband and that divorce papers had been signed weeks earlier. She explained that she and her ex-husband had already done months of biblical counseling in 2014. Within months after those counseling sessions, her then-husband reverted back to his abusive behavior and attitude towards Marie, not seeing any issues with his behavior. Marie's pastors were surprised by this news regarding her troubled marriage and impending divorce, but seemed understanding and compassionate.
Eight days later, Marie's pastors asked her to meet with them to “answer a few questions”. The meeting turned into a two-hour interrogation. The pastors' minds were already made up before she entered the room that “abuse, even physical abuse, is never biblical grounds for divorce”. (It should be noted that there are MANY biblical counselors and pastors who do not agree with this position.)
In the months that followed, the pastors expressed their desire that Marie and her ex-husband work toward reconciliation. Given that the couple had done biblical counseling two years earlier which did not help, Marie had no desire to reconcile with her abusive ex.
On September 28, 2016, Marie sent a certified letter to Heritage Bible Chapel resigning her membership. As an American citizen, Marie is free to associate or disassociate with a voluntary organization. There was also a signed return receipt, indicating that the letter had indeed been received by the church. The letter Marie sent was very similar to the sample letter included in a TWW post published almost five years ago. It is entitled How to Mimimize Damage When Resigning from a Mark Driscoll-like Church.
On October 14, 2016, the HBC elders sent Marie an email response, which included the following:
The covenant that you entered into when you became a member does not permit you to resign during circumstances such as these.
Marie did not respond to this email. Over a month went by, and the elders sent Marie the following correspondence:
Page 2
Page 3
Page 4
Keep in mind that Marie resigned from her church on September 28, 2016, by certified letter. What don't these elders understand???
So according to the above church correspondence, if Marie doesn't change her ‘heart’ condition and repent of her ‘sinful choices’ by December 23, 2016, HBC elders will hold a church-wide meeting in which they will tell their version of events, and Marie will be publicly chastised.
The church refuses to recognize the divorce, claiming that abuse does not constitute grounds for divorce. For ten long months they relentlessly pressured Marie to pursue reconciliation. It was her understanding that any eventual reconciliation would be contingent upon her abuser’s confession of the abuse, repentance, and subsequent changed heart and life; but sadly just the opposite has happened. Nevertheless, Marie is the one painted as being ‘in sin’ (and therefore subject to church discipline).
Her ex-husband, bolstered by the support of his church, continues to intimidate, humiliate, and smash Marie down any and every chance he gets. Her ex-husband has successfully manipulated and swayed the pastors at Heritage Bible Chapel to his cause. Unfortunately, conservative churches seem predisposed to believe the man (especially absent physical abuse), no matter how much testimony and specific data/documentation the woman produces in her own defense.
Marie wishes she didn’t have to share her testimony; however, what choice does she have? In January 2017, these men will call a meeting in the church where Marie served for eleven years; raised her children; counseled hurting women, and taught Bible studies. They will spin their side of the story, which is full of half-truths, misinformation, and twisting of the truth. Therefore, she is telling her side of what happened. It is her fervent prayer that this will help prevent further church-sanctioned castigation of abused women.
Last Friday Dee Made a Phone Call…
Lest any of our readers think we are springing all of this on the pastors and elders of Heritage Bible Chapel without their prior knowledge, let us put your minds at ease. At Marie's request, Dee phoned the church last Friday and spoke with Pastor Tim. She introduced herself and our blog and said that we would rather not write about Marie's situation. If they would withdraw their demands of Marie and leave her alone as her resignation letter requested, all of this could be put to rest. Dee said to Pastor Tim something along these lines:
You do understand that this situation is pretty bad, and it's not going to look good for your church if we publish Marie's story. Is this the hill you want to die on?
She told him that if he wished to make a statement, we would publish it verbatim either as a stand alone post or as an update to a post. Dee also told him that he is more than welcome to leave a comment under the post regarding Marie's story.
To that Tim responded: "I do not think that would be wise."
She also asked Tim whether he knew that 9Marks is loosening their stance on congregants leaving their churches and urged him to contact Jonathan Leeman.
Hey folks, it's important to remember that in the United States a person has the right to break a contract with a voluntarily association, and that includes churches. Attempting to prevent someone from exercising this right could result in dire consequences…
We are happy to report that Marie is finally in a solid church, receiving Godly counsel and trying to forgive not only her ex-husband, but also her former pastor for the damage he has done.
FINALLY…
In order to bring this matter to a close, the pastors at Heritage Bible Chapel should inform Marie in writing that they are ceasing and desisting their efforts to draw her back into her former church for correction and to begin reconciliation efforts, and they should apologize for the pain they have caused her and her family by this illegal harassment. Otherwise, the next step will be taken…
To brighten Marie's spirit this Christmastide, we are sharing a wonderful rendition by the Vienna Boys' Choir.
Marie, may you feel God's love during this wonderful Christmas season when we celebrate the birth of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
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@ dee:
“”Marie, we love you in Christ”
++++++++++++++
ha…. one of those christianisms to beware of.
that and when a pastor (or other christian) says “care for you”.
utterly ridiculous, that to pursue God/Jesus/Holy Spirit in any other way than alone and by yourself is an unsafe prospect.
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ishy wrote:
Any church that has a full time fundraiser on staff (even if the official title is “Stewardship Director”) is a church that is to be avoided at all costs (pun intended).
There is some serious pastoral abuse going on there. I know of several individuals and families who have been put into literal tears by the way they were spoken to and treated by a few of the ‘inner circle’ pastors. I also know first hand of at least one situation were adultery was swept under the rug because the woman in question was one of the pastors’ trophy salvations…the woman and the then-married-to-someone-else man were told to quietly and quickly go to another church until after the baby was born. They did and returned married plus one.
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elastigirl wrote:
Controlling is different from caring! If you’re going to be ‘caring for me’ you better have a casserole or cake or something in hand.
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dee wrote:
Yes – my wife read it a couple of years ago (actually, when we left Richland Creek) and we came to that realization pretty quickly. Actually, we knew most of the elders at the time of Danny’s dissent, so we were trying to figure out who was who. That, and we were very disappointed in the way the women treated Anne, though knowing the wives we were actually only surprised by one or two of them.
Wasn’t McKinion the pastor who was ousted? If so, he is now at Richland Creek as the ‘college pastor’*.
*It is not without irony, though, since many of the youth who come up through the middle and high school ministries do not actually attend college, including the College at Southeastern (though SEBT-C where they are encouraged to attend should they go anywhere).
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Hearing that lady’s story, I feel so bad for her. I hope she’s doing better now.
I don’t have a reaction that severe by any means, but I do get annoyed and tend to start tuning out as soon as I hear the word “submission.” It’s always talked about in terms of wives submitting to husbands (and somehow this becomes all women submitting to all men for all time), with no mention of the part right before about mutual submission. That part tends to get conveniently skipped.
@ Mara:
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Velour wrote:
Scores? Ugh, I didn’t realize how much of an epidemic of this is turning out to be. I guess it shouldn’t surprise me, given that the thinking behind all of this has been affecting certain strands of Christianity for some time now.
I can’t really wrap my head around it. Why, oh why would you punish the victim and not the abuser? I know it happens a lot even in secular settings, but once faith gets in the mix it gets really ugly. It’s incredibly cruel to manipulate someone using their desire to please and obey God against them. I don’t think these people realize how incredibly damaging it is to someone’s faith, to speak of nothing about the victim’s emotional health, mental health, etc.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Even good witches?
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Marie Notcheva wrote:
Thank you for joining together with other people to speak out about your experiences. It’s horrible that you had to go through them in the first place, but with a book like this, no doubt you’ll be able to help countless people get out of or avoid this mess completely.
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@ Serah:
Hoping some of these women will contact us. This trend needs to be discussed!
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@ Burwell:
As a former founding member of Christ Baptist, I found your commentary interesting. We left on May 1, 2005, and have NEVER looked back.
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@ Gram3:
Thanks for your comment Gram3! I realized I don’t think about the enormous pressure this puts on men as much as I perhaps should. They’re expected to be Jesus, and that just isn’t possible. I can’t imagine how that makes perfectly godly men feel who are simply doing their best to follow the Lord but make very human mistakes along the way.
I think certain Christian circles tend to be bad at encouraging members to establish personal boundaries. Forgiveness gets equated with allowing someone to hurt you over and over again, otherwise it’s not “true” forgiveness. Really the best thing to do is forgive and safeguard yourself to prevent it from happening again (especially in abuse situations!) Forgiveness does not mean immediately trusting someone who has just hurt you, as they’ve just proven they don’t deserve your trust. Trust is something that has to be earned.
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@ Nick Bulbeck:
This idea of church as hospital, or idea of people being rescuers is very different from the church of my youth. I have an idea, so let me see how this plays.
In Baptistville in my youth the nation was first at war WW II and then had the brief period before Korea, and IMO we were people of that mentality because of the very real circumstances. We thought we were training to be warriors of the cross as well as warriors of the nation. Defenders of the faith. The kids had a chorus “I’m too young to march in the infantry, ride in the cavalry, shoot the artillery; I’m too young to fly o’er the enemy, but I’m in the Lord;s army. I’m in the Lord’s army; I’m in the Lord’s army (repeat) replete with body motions of course. In church we sang stuff like ‘Must I be carried to the skies on flowery beds of ease, while others fought to win the prize and sailed through blood seas? Are there no foes for me to fight; increase my courage Lord; I’ll bear the cross, endure the pain, supported by thy word.’
That is not exactly Jesus loves you, and you and you and all will be well. And BTW, Brother Billy Joe Bob in the pulpit will take care of you; just do what he tells you. I mean, this is polar opposite. But, the world has enormously changed. My kids tell me that they were trained during the cold war to dive under their desks at school in case of nuclear attack (as if that would do anything) and they got the idea that destruction was inevitable so why worry, why plan, enjoy today the best you can because there may not be a tomorrow. Wow, even we during actual war time did not think that.
So I am thinking that much of what we see may be strongly influenced by the various times in which we live. Maybe this is a lot of cultural impact on religion based on actual cultural changes. And yes, there are always opportunistic predators prowling around. It may be that the current church culture makes it easier for the predators, however.
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Max wrote:
I don’t even know what it means to be a “called pastor” as opposed to being called anything else, as we’re all called, we’re all a royal priesthood, and the only place I find the word “pastor” in the New Testament in the singular is fourth in a list of five different roles that people play in the church mentioned in Ephesians 4, certainly not as a specially “called” person or a called CEO, or a called leader of the Board of Elders, or a main speaker on Sundays, or a person given the right to set the vision for everyone in a fellowship, follow up to see it’s being followed, and mete out punishment if it is not. But, that said, if that word “pastor” in Ephesians means anything other than just people who have an unusually strong gift for humble, shepherd-like servanthood that edifies others, it certainly does NOT mean anything that anyone will “sit under”.
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elastigirl wrote:
Translation: eff off and die.
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Serah wrote:
Or perhaps some of them do and that’s why they do it.
A recent study demonstrated that roughly 1/3 of all pastors in a distinctly non-authoritarian, non-pastor worshiping strain of Presbyterianism in Canada had full blown NPD (i.e., no conscience, no empathy, evil). One has to wonder what those numbers would be if anyone could ever pull off a similar study in the U.S. in the more authoritarian, pastor-centric strains of evangelicalism. Might be well north of 50%.
So don’t just assume these people are well-meaning. Some might be, some might be bona fide Christians just terribly misguided, perhaps in the throes of groupthink.
Then again, some might truly hate Ms Notcheva (as they hate everyone else, including Jesus) and take sadistic and perverse pleasure in protecting a fellow abuser while tormenting his victim.
If it were otherwise, could you tell the difference?
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dee wrote:
The Amazon Kindle version of Wounded by God’s People is only $1.99 right now. I just treated myself to a copy.
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Law Prof wrote:
No, but there might be some caution signs. If they have multiple victims, and if they use the same approach with all the victims, and since we know that not all circumstances are the same, then there is most certainly a problem with them. Perhaps they are just ignorant. No, information is too easily come by for me to buy that excuse. Perhaps they are malicious. Well, that is one good answer, but does seminary make people turn malicious? Perhaps they operate in the service of the system, not in the service of the Lord or His people, and their real god is the system and their place in it. I am going with that as a presumptive conclusion at this point.
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Law Prof wrote:
And that’s the Gospel Truth! But, you will never hear that preached in a New Calvinist church. Long-standing Baptist doctrines of “priesthood of THE believer” and “soul competency” have been diminished with the proliferation of the reformed movement in SBC ranks. But, the Truth remains, every believer is a priest … every believer has equal access to God … every believer stands competent to hear His voice and know His will … every believer can know Truth by the Holy Spirit … every believer is called to the Great Commission. Whose “career” is the ministry? Every believer has a part!
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okrapod wrote:
I think the whole profession is attractive to NPD and other personality-disordered people; some people are evil, the Bible describes them as those who have seared consciences, Romans 1 describes them, as does 2 Cor 11 and other places. An extremely high percentage in the clergy are such people. Check out the Canadian research mentioned above.
These people have a way of turning even otherwise decent people round and leading them into doing the same stuff they do. So perhaps real Christians on the elder board go along and ignore that still small voice–for a while. But at bottom, it’s the worst sorts of people who are often drawn to these imagined, made-up leadership positions within the church (again, what’s a pastor? A CEO? Not in the New Testament).
So garbage in /garbage out.
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Law Prof wrote:
Amen. We’ve lost that essential truth in much of the organized church.
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Max wrote:
I like you, Max. Good egg.
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Serah wrote:
I get beyond annoyed …… angry, even. Almost all teachings I’ve heard on submission appoint husbands as prophets, priests, and kings – just not in so many words. It insinuates that God keeps women at a distance, and that men are closer and more important to Him.
I’ve heard “men need respect, women need love” until I just want to pull my sword out of the sheath (unleash my tongue) and slice that teaching to shreds, because it devalues both love and respect.
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@ Deb:
I may have said this before, but it has been a while. My mom was a member there until she moved away a few years ago. When we left Richland Creek, we visited CBC at the invitation of some friends as well as my mom. We tried youth group one Wednesday and that was the last time we set foot in the building – no one, not a youth, leader, the youth pastor or his wife, greeted or spoke to my daughter the entire time she was there. I attempted to contact the youth ‘pastor’ but never received a reply…
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Serah wrote:
Because the victim is only the victim of her own sinful, disobedient, unsubmissive behavior. There is no abuser.
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Serah wrote:
Not picking on you, Serah. Just catching up, and some of what you wrote caught my attention and gave me ideas.
Christianese forgiveness = get out of jail free card.
There is nothing said to the offender about “go and sin no more. It’s all about the one who was offended forgetting it ever happened.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Nick, that made me spray my monitor with the Earl Grey I was sipping!! 😀 Your comments are the best ever. Please stay tuned for Dee’s installment tonight, where she re-caps her conversation with the Right Reverend Tim.
On a different note, I literally cannot keep up with all the messages I’m getting from current and former members of HBC, with their own horror stories. I can’t believe I’m the first one to speak out publicly about this abuse and craziness!
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Nancy2 wrote:
Nobody asked that lady to shack up with one of the guys who was just about to stone her, either.
Nancy2 wrote:
IMO, They seem to recognize, somewhere in their dim little brains, that they can’t actually fix the abuser (whether they admit it or not). So they work on the only reasonable, decent party and try to control them instead.
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Nancy2 wrote:
but this is not what Our Lord intended for us …. where did the neo-Cals get this stuff?
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
“Love is very patient and kind … never boastful or proud … never haughty or selfish or rude … Love does not demand its own way” (1 Cor 13)
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
A tweeterer took Wartwatch to task for “interfering with church discipline processes”. Whereas they’re really SPLINTER discipline processes. For CHURCH discipline processes to be meaningful, there’d need to be a Church in Marie’s locality which could get together on her behalf against the hirelings and wolves. Lacking that, there’d need to be a real apostle they all respect who could call them out for their divisions and toleration of abuse. As it is, she could only turn to outsiders to “interfere”.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
LOLOLOLOL!
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Dave A A wrote:
As you can imagine, I was deeply moved…
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Burwell wrote:
You do not fit with the upper echelon…
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@ Talmidah: We can tell you whom she is referring to in various incidents. Deb even has more insider info.
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dee wrote:
classic! LOL
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@ dee:
I’m not sure if I should be insulted or thankful…I’ll go with thankful on this one. 🙂
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Lea wrote:
I saw this in play at my ex-church Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley. Incompetent, untrained pastors/elders ran their mouthes about serious situations — everything from alcoholism to memory disorders in church members — and got it wrong, wrong, wrong. Then the pastors/elders said that they had tried, that the fix hadn’t happened, and therefore someone was to blame and was “in sin” and so would get berated before the whole church.
How are church members to blame for another member’s alcoholism and acting out? The compassionate, helpful thing to do would have been to refer the alcoholic to a physician who was competent to diagnosis and treat. Ditto for the person with the memory disorder who couldn’t remember entire events and conversations and accused other people of “lying”. Other people weren’t lying. She’s got a brain malfunction and needed medical care.
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Dave A A wrote:
Moot. Marie has resigned and is no longer a member of that church.
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Lea wrote:
Which only goes to show how unreasonable and indecent they are.
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Lea wrote:
Yes, I think you’ve nailed it.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
It’s almost like we’ve known some of the same people!
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dee wrote:
Well somebody needed to interfere! Good Lord, Marie is no longer a member of their church! All the world now waits to see what they will do on December 23.
I may have missed it, but is HBC affiliated with any denomination? I know that the pastors were educated at SBC seminaries and that the church was founded by a group with Plymouth Brethren background, but does it have any denominational oversight?
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Max wrote:
Hahahahaha…..Good grief I never knew I was so darned significant that they simply MUST have me in their church….only so they can do their public stoning and can kick me out again and congratulate themselves on a job well done. Never mind that I’ve been gone for 5 MONTHS now. Who woulda thunk I’d be so important to them.
No, no denominational oversight and a bunch of deacons and an elder left a year and a half ago because current leadership wouldn’t listen to their concerns about the autocratic way things were being done. As with me, they were told they were “in sin” for leaving and ordered to “keep the circle small” (ie keep quiet about what really happened). A couple of them emailed me today to tell me how proud they are of me for exposing this toxic situation.
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Max wrote:
Heritage Bible Chapel is non-denominational. I assume the 'elders' only answer to themselves. It appears the congregation has no power whatsoever.
http://heritagebiblechapel.org/about-us/faq/
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Marie Notcheva wrote:
Can you send me your autograph? 😉
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@ Talmidah:
I have this book, along with several of the other books Anne has written.
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@ Marie Notcheva:
Nick is a special member of the TWW 'family'. He keeps our spirits high. 😉
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@ Burwell:
We need to get together in the New Year! Dee and I will treat you to lunch. 🙂
We enjoy meeting those who read our blog and have met quite a few over the years.
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Up to almost 650 comments — all without getting hijacked!
This is going to be one of the largest threads of 2016.
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Marie Notcheva wrote:
Are they willing to go public alongside you?
Once they might be in personal danger from The System, it’s amazing how many supporters suddenly go “I Never Knew You, I Didn’t Say That, and You Can’t Ever Prove I Ever Did”. Had that happen to me years ago when I was target of email harassment in Furry Fandom.
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Deb wrote:
I was concerned that might be the case. Then there is no accountability system in place for these pastors. Of course, they would claim to be accountable to the Word on their disciplinary process, but they hold a distorted view of it. In the absence of congregational polity, the pulpit wields complete control and limitless power over the pew. To quote Lord Acton “Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.”
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Nancy2 wrote:
I just cross-index that statement with “Fear Breeds Respect” and Vlad Tepes Dracula.
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Max wrote:
I prefer Frank Herbert’s corollary:
“Power attracts the already-corrupt and easily corrupted.”
And Absolute Power plus Utter Righteousness is a REAL Bad Combination.
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dee wrote:
Read “Lure of the Inner Ring” by C.S.Lewis for more details.
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Dave A A wrote:
On Twitter.
Wny do you think they call them “Twits”?
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Christiane wrote:
Calvin and/or his Fanboys.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Oh my goodness can I quote that and pretend I said it first?? I kept hearing that in a women’s bible study (prior to HBC) and I never agreed with it. I knew well and good my ex didn’t love me; I would have settled for a little respect anytime!
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Law Prof wrote:
Makes me wonder if Sociopaths are Born or Made.
Or both — imagine someone at the low end of the spectrum, with some sociopathic tendencies. (Much like I’m sure I’ve got one foot in the low end of the Aspergers spectrum.) Immerse him/her in an environment like that which selects for and rewards Sociopathy. Think it will reinforce those tendencies until you have a full-honk Sociopath?
And was this what that Rabbi from Nazareth was talking about with “Seeking a convert, only to make him twice the child of Hell as yourselves”?
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Marie Notcheva wrote:
Sure. Go right ahead.
I got fluent in Snark while growing up; you can scour my comments for more zingers.
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@ Marie Notcheva:
P.S. That’s the result of being a former spacy Kid Genius with a massive mental database and NO search engine except random-association cascades. Who needs drugs?
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Law Prof wrote:
The splinter “Fellowship” I was mixed up with in the Seventies — medium-to-heavy Shepherding and End-of-the-World — had no single “cult leader” (except maybe an absentee Hal Lindsay), just a lot of Groupthink among 20-to-30-year old “Elders”.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Listening to the justifications makes me thinking of an ethics class I took in college. one of the ethical systems was utilitarian and we had great fun making arguments that literally everything was ethical, but obviously that’s a bunch of college kids. Apply it consistently in the real world and you get all sorts of horrors. That’s what I think of when I hear about these churches, they have set a some sort of overall ‘goal’ they think is ‘good’ and decided that anything that meets that goal is ethical. Period.
So marriage is good = keeping a marriage from dissolving is good = keeping an abused spouse in the marriage is good. Period. No other thoughts allowed. Because happiness of the individuals is not important.
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@ Lea:
“If you’re going to be ‘caring for me’ you better have a casserole or cake or something in hand.”
++++++++++++
i dunno…. casseroles can get complicated.
I’ve been the recipient of “casseroles” (or meals) a few times in years gone by — sometimes it was so begrudgingly done the bringers could barely look at me. not sure if it was projected at me, at the person who told them to do this, or just at the general annoyance of being obligated to do this.
Sometimes i got the sense that the more frills that came with the ‘casserole’ the more a representation of frustration/irritation.
(“hmmmm, someone who doesn’t seem to like me just dropped off fried chicken, warm bread, butter, salad, brand new bottle of pricey salad dressing, fresh strawberries, whipped cream, brownies…. now i know they don’t like me & they’re pissed that they had to do this.”)
it was very uncomfortable. from here on out, no casseroles, no meals, please.
i swear… people NOT in church are so much easier to interact with.
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You’re on to something with this, Okra.
okrapod wrote:
I remember that one; it held on into at least the late Seventies (and well into the Eighties with youth groups).
When I hear the term “bloody seas”, I think of Iron Bottom Sound in the Solomons, between the islands of Guadalcanal and Tulagi.
As someone who remembers school Bomb Drills in second grade (Cuban Missile Crisis), I concur. The trope of Inevitable Global Thermonuclear War (It’s Coming, It’s Inevitable, It’s All Over But The Screaming) was a constant drumbeat through that period, very different from coming off The Nifty Fifties where you not only lasted through a Great Depression and World War, you actually WON and came out stronger. The difference between a continuing ill-defined crisis and an up front one.
And that is the difference between the WW2 generation/Nifty Fifties and the Baby Boomers/The Sixties.
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elastigirl wrote:
Ha! Don’t rule out the obsessive and anxious, because I would totally go overboard like that.
But yes, food should be an expression of love and food given without love loses its taste. I was (mostly) just kidding 🙂
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Deb wrote:
Yep, because you can CHECK OUT BUT YOU CAN NEVER LEAVE! The elders will deem themselves to be the Hound of Heaven, hunting you down until you SUBMIT!
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
We sang it ‘I may never…but I’m in the lords army’.
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siteseer wrote:
I think they’re everywhere…
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All of these Neo-Cal churches sound like cookie cutter cut-outs of one another. I wonder if they all have a pre-printed form letter for situations like this that they print out from the 9Marx Headquarters. They all say the same things almost verbatim. Instead of the Stepford Wives, they’re the Stepford Pastors and Elders.
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Ken F wrote:
I personally know the Orthodox priest who started and runs the Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy site. He was once an Evangelical and he understands Calvinism well. A few years ago my husband and I attended one of his presentations at his parish. We brought our Calvinist friend with us. At one point our Calvinist friend stood up and began a rant about how great Calvin’s teachings are, telling the priest not to misrepresent him. Our friend’s anger escalated and the priest told him to stop yelling and sit down, that he didn’t need to be taught about Calvin because he understood Calvin quite well. Our friend was irate and you could have heard a pin drop after he sat down. I wanted to hide under the table. 😉
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Nancy2 wrote:
I agree with your sentiments, which I have slightly re-worded for the sake of clarity.
A far better notion would be:
Children need predominantly (though not exclusively) love; adults need predominantly (though not exclusively) respect. However, this transformation begins very early in life, as evidenced by the fact that young children frequently want to do things for themselves.
The infantilising people that both Sightseer and I have met (apparently) want everyone to be a baby in need of love, probably because they themselves are not capable of respect, nor of forming healthy peer-to-peer relationships.
Of course, the topic of church folk who can’t form healthy relationships is a whole nuther Diet of Worms.
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Darlene wrote:
I love the book (117 pages) called Reconsidering TULIP by Alexander J. Renault. Someone here mentioned it on a thread. Renault is an Eastern Orthodox Christian who used to be a Calvinist. Good book. Logically refutes Calvinism point by point.
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@ Marie Notcheva:
On the same two notes…
Note 1 of 2
We aim to please!
Note 2 of 2
There’s more than one kind of leadership, AWWBA. The popular kind among the young, rebellious and reformed is the dominant charismatic leader whom everybody wants to admire and
financefollow. A more important kind in the church, though, is the kind of person who simply does the right thing that many others wish they had the courage to do. The effect of that person’s leadership is that others then find the courage to do the right thing in turn.#RESPECT
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
My take, involving a married couple: Let’s say they’re right …… women need love and men need respect.
When a husband gives a wife love, he is giving her -at most- his second best, because respect is more valuable and more important to him.
When the wife gives the husband respect, she is giving him -at most- her second best, because love is more valuable and more important to her.
They both know this. Each know the other is giving -at most- their second best.
No, no, no. In a marriage, love and respect go hand in hand.
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Nancy2 wrote:
That must be where I went wrong. They used to say that marriage was about fried chicken and wink wink. Oh, well. The old saying was that the way to a man’s heart was through his stomach, and a little thing with chicken feathers never hurt. Life was simpler back then.
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Darlene wrote:
I have been wondering the very same thing.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Looks that way. It's a very important story!
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ION: Sport
Fitba’
Liverpool took all 3 points in the Merseyside derby tonight thanks to an injury-time winner.
Cricket
India are all but assured of victory in the final Test after declaring their second innings on 7,947,625,498,995,633,324,579,164,492,226,710,893,030,655-7 (or roughly 7.95 * 10^42). England need to bat out the final day to draw, but have as much chance of doing so as I have of quantum-tunnelling to the moon and returning safely to earth by the end of the decade.
Climbing
I’m inching towards a redpoint ascent of the 6c problem on Route 2; the crucial move is a strenuous fingery pull-up, using a rounded sloper and an awkwardly-high and sloping foothold before what will probably be a dyno for the finishing jug. Meanwhile, the white 6a+ on Route 11 remains a favourite – not least because it features the hold that, for historical reasons, is named Kevin.
IHTIH
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GNFS, BTW.
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I think churches could learn a thing or two from the way we select juries. (I.e. randomly and by invitation only, so as to prevent self-selection bias). That would help prevent narcissists from power-grabbing their way to the top.
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
HUG… my father’s cousin was killed in the Battle of Tassafaronga, which took place on Iron Bottom sound in Nov, 1942……
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@ Nancy2:
Very good comment. The teaching comes from the fact that Paul tells husbands to love their wives and wives to respect their husbands. Many conclude therefore that women don’t need respect as much as they need love and men don’t need love as much as they need respect. But that is an assumption based on what Paul did not say. I don’t think we know the exact issues Paul addressed in his letters because we don’t have the other side of the conversation. We can guess well, but we don’t have certainty. I’m very glad you wrote what you wrote.
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Darlene wrote:
Can you please let him know how grateful I am that he has put so much effort into that site. It has been a great resource for me.
I’m finding that the most vocal Calvinists don’t often know much about Calvinism – just enough to be dangerous. And they typically don’t want to read or talk about anything contrary to what they already believe. The people who truly understand both sides of the argument are the best at refuting Calvinism. Here is an article by a theologian who was raised as a Calvinist but left it: http://perichoresis.org/why-i-left-calvinism-2/. He studied everything Calvin wrote, so he did not reject Calvinism out of ignorance. I am very grateful for people like this who have plowed a path for others to follow.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Both, and: finance AND follow.
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From the post: the pastors counseled: “abuse, even physical abuse, is never biblical grounds for divorce”… enabling an abusive spouse.
Likewise, or parallel to, when pastors/leaders decide that pedophilia is not biblical grounds to keeping children from an offending adult.
Since when does being a Christian leader mean coming down on the wrong side of ethics, the Rule of Law, the Common Good, the Social Contract, etc., of a safe and healthy society?
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Christiane wrote:
Group-think has taken over the New Calvinist movement … and it is stinkin’ thinkin’. A handful of New Calvinist elite leaders have Mohlerized and Piperized them to believe and act as they do. This multitude of young reformers have been caught up in the excitement of restoring the gospel that the rest of us have lost. They have been indoctrinated to believe that they have come into the world for such a time as this and have been entranced by Pied Piper’s spell to the point of losing critical reasoning. They have been released into ministry with a common personality and pursuit and are sincere about their mission … you can’t convince them they are wrong; they know it all. I have a feeling that we ain’t seen nothin’ yet – this is only the beginning.
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Dale wrote:
My husband and I experienced this when we attended an OPC church plant. It wasn’t the reason we left—the horror of Calvinism was—but it did bother us. The pastor said that church membership was needed for discipline (reasons). I had no idea then what he meant, but finding TWW soon taught me what he meant.
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@ Nancy2:
Great insight Sister Nancy.
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@ Mike Smith
I agree with you pretty fully. One caveat, you can still have authoritarian leaders wherever you happen to gather.
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okrapod wrote:
LOLOLOLOLOL!
My husband was born and raised in Maine. They don’t do fried chicken and biscuits up there (or real cornbread, for that matter). He had been in the army for 9 1/2 years when we met. After 9 1/2 years of army food, I think it was my fried chicken, mashed potatoes, biscuits, and gravy that did him in!
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@ Ken F:
@ Max:
From things the two of you have said on TWW, there’s no doubt that y’all have both great love and great respect for your wives. I’ll bet each of them have both for each of you!
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dee
Deb
Wow. I do look forward to reading this book. I’ve had my eye on it for awhile. I’ve always enjoyed Anne Graham Lotz’s ministry. She provides me with church early on Sunday mornings via WPTF and it’s such a blessing.
I’m a North Carolina native and have been in the Raleigh area a long time (since ’64, when I was in third grade) so I’ll bet I know or know of some of the people you and AGL speak of. A few years ago I thought about visiting the Messianic services at Richland Creek but never did. If I remember correctly, the more I read about the church the more it just didn’t sit well with me for some reason. Maybe it’s a good thing I never went.
Marie Notcheva
Marie and others who have found freedom from their abusers, I am so happy for you. May God greatly bless you, and may others be encouraged and strengthened, especially those still in bondage.
Also, Marie, I just saw your comment on Jeff Crippen’s excellent post today on the A Cry for Justice blog. I hope everyone takes time to read that article and the comments. Jeff and Barbara are doing outstanding work, as are Dee and Deb here. Thanks to all who care about the abused and oppressed.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Well, in Marie’s case it’s, “Submit or be excommunicated.”
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@ Nancy2:
My wife and I resemble that remark. We have been a team, through thick and thin, for nearly 50 years. We won’t give up, shut up, let up, until we have stayed up, stored up, prayed up, paid up, preached up for the cause of Christ. We cannot be bought, compromised, detoured, lured away, turned back, deluded, or delayed. We’re getting along in years, but we ain’t done yet!
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Max wrote:
Very encouraging.
There was an interview today of a husband/wife medical doctor couple (JOHN HENNING SCHUMANN and SARAH-ANNE HENNING SCHUMANN)and he said his wife had taught him how to be a better doctor with improved communication skills. http://n.pr/2h3GiTS
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@ Nancy2:
My wife and I thank you for your kind words. We have only half the years of Max and his wife. I hope we can follow their example.
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@ JYJames:
None of that complementarian nonsense in our home … we simply complement each other in our journey with Christ. We’ve been on the mountain and in the valley together. We’ve had times when there was light at the end of the tunnel, but hell in the hallway. There’s really not much good about us, but the Jesus who lives within us.
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Max wrote:
This is so good! Had to include your entire quote! Thanks for sharing!
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Nancy2 wrote:
Irrelevant! You will be assimilated! Haven’t you ever read “Pastors, Don’t Let YOUR People Resign Into Thin Air?
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Marie Notcheva wrote:
They simply MUST obey their (mis)understanding of ONE solitary all-important bible verse, or they think they’ll have to “give account”. It’s not coincidental that the first quoted verse in their letter is Hebrews 13:17.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
While the basic character may be largely formed in youth, some environments provide much greater opportunities for Sociopaths to reveal their true selves. Post WWII I grew up thinking of them as the brutal guards in a concentration camp. Back then I would never have though of them as church leaders.
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Holy Toledo Batman! The 700 mark has been hit again!
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Dave A A wrote:
They totally missed out on 1 Peter 5:3, which says that elders are never to compel anyone to do anything, to lord it over them, but to lead merely by example. Additionally, Hebrews 13:17 does not mean what they apparently think it does, “obey” in 13:17 is “peitho”, which means basically to be persuadable.
So, taken together, people in a fellowship (of co-equal priests) ought to have a persuadable attitude when approached by their elders (the solid, stable ones older than them trusted by the fellowship and appointed to serve), but under no circumstances are said elders to force anyone into anything that conflicts with their conscience, under such circumstances, the elders ought to just be good examples.
And there you have it, the way the Bible puts it, and if those leading HBC care about the Bible, they’ll take this to heart. If they do not, they can keep down the path to hell. Their call.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
My Dad survived the Air War over Germany. His youngest brother not so lucky, he was killed driving the Wehrmacht out of Italy.
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Marie Notcheva wrote:
The messages you received fits with my experience. When I first left an authoritarian church several years ago I though I was one of only a few at the time and was one of the first to see the problems. Since then I have run across more than a few people who left years earlier and saw the pattern long before I did, as an aside there continue to be lots of opportunities to find humility. I can’t say that I was dumb and happy my last years there but I sure could have seen things more clearly. On a few occasions I’ve kicked myself for having been sucked in and the wasted years, but thankfully I am no longer throwing precious time and energy I have remaining into a dysfunctional and hopeless situation.
I’ve recently read the story of a survivor of Auschwitz. Of course the suffering there was on a hugely greater scale and I don’t want to minimize their horror or to link the severity of their abusers with what I witnessed. That said, I do see parallels. I did find meaning in that church even if it was through my opposition there, we seem to be able to find meaning in a struggle or in our suffering. Also similar with those who survived concentration camps and its suffering, once finding freedom the adjustment is not as quick or as positive as expected, there are holes that need filling.
I don’t see the issue as PTSD but more as the adjustment to freedom from an institution that defined so much of my life, it is taking more time than I thought. Thankfully many of the voices here at TWW have provided much needed validation and insight. In my 60’s I’m asking the questions again of my 20’s, what should I do with my life and where do I find meaning.
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Dave A A wrote:
Given their “(mis)understanding, I wonder how they feel about giving an account for Marie’s husband and his behavior? Is it “anything goes” for the men and “double-down” on the women?
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Deb wrote:
Perhaps a harbinger of things to come. Keep alert…there just might be another Neo-Cal take-over.
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@ Deb:
You better start taking copious notes. And warning other people (covertly of course) to watch out for the Neo-Calvinist Red Flags.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
We see eye to eye. My opinion, having served closely alongside several young neocalvinists, is that a great number are drawn to a movement, not Jesus, and a high percentage are profoundly disturbed young men, naive at best, sadistic and destructive at worst. These are not the cautious, square reformed types of a few decades ago. There is an arrogance coupled with deep insecurities in many that make them extraordinarily dangerous people to any healthy fellowship. I will not be in a fellowship that includes them unless the Lord Himself tells me to.
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Law Prof wrote:
They also missed out on the fact that Hebrews 13:17 does not refer to elders at all.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Ah, you’re right. Never thought of that, always just accepted the paradigm from which it was taught (while rejecting the underlying premise as taught by abusive pastors and elders that I and all others in the fellowship must submit to them and it will be counted as righteousness to submit as quietly and humbly as possible, even to the most absurd and ugly demands). But now it might appear that not only the premise but the entire paradigm if off.
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Bill M wrote:
If the Lord allows me to live I will reach the age of 60 in 2017 and I am asking myself hard questions as to what I need to be doing with my life and I often question decisions I made in my younger years.
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Darlene wrote:
A Neo-Cal takeover of a Wartburger church would be a jewel in their crown.
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First-time poster here.
The HBC sermons are still accessible via their website. Regarding leaving a “painful” marriage, TC preaching on July 31, relates:
The Truth about Divorce
http://heritagebiblechapel.org/media/sermons/2/
34:16 “…if we are trying to justify our desire for a divorce it reveals that there is something already wrong with your heart. Many, many times I’ve sat down with people who are contemplating divorce and I’ve heard their reasons and their rationale, I’ve listened to their hurt and I know that there is pain, but what so often happens is people come to the point where they say “I am hurting so much that I need this, and I will twist what the Bi-, God’s word has to say, in order to have it.” And so in the few minutes we have remaining I want to go through the ten most common reasons that I’ve heard for why Christians feel like they should get divorced and make sure we are centering ourselves on what God’s word has to say related to them. Very quickly, the ten most common excuses Christians give for divorce…”
36:50 “Fourth [excuse]: God doesn’t expect me to go back to that marriage when I’m in this much pain.
Let me just say that I know that I have no idea what pain many marriages have been through, what heartache and sleepless nights and tear-soaked pillows are represented here. But I know that we serve a Savior who went to a cross, in order to follow what God had commanded, who laid down His life and laid down His rights. And God calls us to be reconciled, to be unified. And so while you might think that God wouldn’t want you to go back because of the pain, it may very well be that what God is desiring to do is to refine you and to reveal your faith as you trust in Him even in the difficulty.“
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Law Prof wrote:
Don’t forget those other two Mass Movements that WILL Remake the World:
Ninety years ago in Italy and eighty years ago in Germany.
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Muff Potter wrote:
One of my writing partners (the self-educated son of a Pennsylvania steelworker) had one uncle at Omaha Beach, another who almost lost a leg at Anzio, and a third who was at Saipan and Okinawa.
My own father spent two-three years feeding powder bags into a six-inch breech in Turret Four of the USS Cleveland.
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@ Connie:
This is so helpful to me. I am putting this into a post. If you listen to anymore and hear stuff like this, please let me know. I cannot thank you enough!
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Regarding Iron Bottom Sound, you still can’t use a magnetic compass between Guadalcanal and Tulagi. There’s still too much metal on the sea floor:
Battleships IJN Hiei and IJN Kirishima; cruisers USS Astoria, USS Quincy, USS Vincennes, HMAS Canberra, IJN Furutaka, USS Atlanta, USS Juneau, IJN Kinugasa, USS Northampton, USS Chicago; and too many destroyers and lighter craft to count.
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Connie wrote:
They twist the words and add to them like nobody’s business.
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Law Prof wrote:
And “leaders” likewise does not mean what they think. Of course v 7 puts them in the past, as those to be remembered, and would certainly be amongst those living according to v 1-6 (unlike so many current “leaders”.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
And this!
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@ Dave A A:
Each year around this time I remember as “leaders” a couple who encouraged me just before Christmas long ago when I had been depressed. The wife became a missions professor and a board member of Christians for Biblical Equality, and the husband continued to manage Christian bookstores.
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Law Prof wrote:
No doubt about it! Just listen to them. You won’t hear Jesus’ name mentioned much in their sermons … their social media chatter is full of Piper Points and Mohler Moments, but not the words of Jesus … coffee shop conversations focus on the latest book by one of the NC icons, but not what Jesus is doing in their lives … small group meetings teach doctrines of grace but not the Grace of a living Christ. Yep, the movement has little to do with moving on with Jesus.
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Connie wrote:
If a pastor said that to me, I might be far too tempted to find out if pain would refine him and reveal his faith, and see if the pastor would trust Him even in the difficulty.
Harrumph. Would he just let go and let God, or would he call da po po?
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Darlene wrote:
Yes. The impression I formed was that anyone who wants to leave a controlling church is automatically in sin. The solution is easy: return and submit. Then you’ll realize that there really never was a reason to leave; the church is perfect (or at least, it’s more perfect than any other church out there). There’s never any reason for someone in their right mind, who is walking the right(TM) way, to leave.
Of course, the leaders are delusional — that much is clear to me now — and the only way to stay in that church is to give up your right mind and agree to accept the delusion as reality.
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refugee wrote:
COMRADE O’BRIAN, INNER PARTY: How much is Two Plus Two?
6079 SMITH W, OUTER PARTY: Four.
COMRADE O’BRIAN, INNER PARTY: And if The Party decrees it is not Four but Five?
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Incidentally, the phrase “iron-bottom sound” could be used to describe young Christians who’ve discovered the bible, believe they’re they only people who’ve ever read it and have decided their doctrine is infallible because it’s based on the bible (which nobody else’s is). As in, stiff-necked and iron-bottomed.
I speak from experience: I became a Christian at 18, in my first year at uni, and for the first year or so I was exactly like that.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
The first year or so . . .?
Took me longer than that to not be “stiff-necked and iron-bottomed.”. 😉
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Connie wrote:
You don’t have to justify your desire for divorce if your spouse is abusive or adulterous! Problem. solved.
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Lea wrote:
Amazing how the blame gets shifted, isn’t it?
Is it wrong for the gazelle to flee from the cheetah?
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refugee wrote:
Crazy making.
They think if they say it with some bible words and verses thrown in it makes more sense. It doesn’t. And that quote, desire for a divorce indicates a sinful heart? No.Where.In.The.Bible.
In conclusion, shut up Tim!
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Nancy2 wrote:
Paul said some words like that, though of course never in light of running back into an abusive relationship. He made that latter point pretty clear in 2 Cor. 11 when he got extremely sarcastic with those who put up with abusive church leaders. But nonetheless, Paul did say some things about suffering producing good things in our faith. Of course, the difference between Paul, who was beaten, tortured, impoverished and eventually beheaded (historical tradition claims) to perfect his faith, and who is never recorded to have demanded tithes and offerings for his own well-being but instead took a blue collar side job to support himself and be a burden to no one and the average abusive church leader, who seem invariably to go about setting themselves up in the most comfortable manner possible, demanding tithes to make it so, is vast. When someone has actually suffered for their faith we should listen to them about refining through suffering, when someone is fat and comfortable and most of the suffering that goes on round them is inflicted by them, we should close our ears to them.
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refugee wrote:
Depends on whether “Pastor” Tim told the gazelle that being eaten would refine its faith.
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Law Prof wrote:
Maybe it depends on if the gazelle is male or female.
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Law Prof wrote:
Does it count when they fly coach instead of 1st class to the latest T4G conference?
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Law Prof wrote:
Bravo, LawProf. Excellent comment. Thank you!
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Bill M wrote:
Depends on who they have to sit beside. ; ^ )
A TWWer could really torture them!
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refugee wrote:
I think it may be termed, “self-gaslighting”?
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Connie wrote:
And I don’t wish that on the person proferring advice, but really, they have no clue. Question – how do you get people interested in something that they’re seemingly not affected by? This person may not suffer from a partner’s controlling behaviours or emotional, financial, verbal, social, spiritual or physical abuse, but are they prepared to learn?
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refugee wrote:
It is for the cheetah.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
And end up full of wrecks like Iron Bottom Sound.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Like a neurotic mother who keeps her kid a perpetual infant and ends up killing him/her through Munchausen-by-Proxy?
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Well put.
A verbatim quote from Tim’s October 14 email to me (this was 16 days after receiving my letter of resignation, and FIRST no-contact order):
“The covenant that you entered into when you became a member does not permit you to resign during circumstances such as these. But we would rather not have that type of issue characterize our conversation. We hope it is plain for you to see that the reason we don’t permit resignation under duress is so that we don’t get thwarted in helping people who need help. If we were purely interested in minimizing difficulty for ourselves, it would be easiest to just let troubled people go.”
I DID get help. I saw a domestic abuse counselor and hired a lawyer. What part of “stop harassing me” do these people not understand?