“You come of the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve," said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth. Be content." -CS Lewis, Prince Caspian link
This quote by CS Lewis is important to those of us who believe in grace; not the doctrines of grace, mind you, but grace.
“You come of the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve," said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth. Be content." -CS Lewis Prince Caspian link
I am a big believer in grace. Each week, my church does a corporate confession of sins. Then, the pastor reminds us that ALL of our sins, known and unknown, have been forgiven. One of my friends put it this way. "I always feel such a lightness when I hear that."
Yes, grace is immense, wide and and all encompassing. It is always offered by a gracious God. At the same time, there should come a concomitant understanding of the depth of our sin and failure. Something that reaches deep into our spirit. I am not one to sit and contemplate Christ perpetually stuck on the Cross like those who have been hurt at the hands of SGM theology. I ponder, always, Christ crucified, resurrected, ascended and coming again. All four are necessary in order to understand our Lord and His relationship to us.
For me, this awareness is exhibited by a difficult mix of emotions which include the realization of my sin in the pit in my stomach along with a need to repent and the immediate joy as I recognized I am forgiven. Lewis' quote hits this dichotomy dead on. The head raised in triumph while the shoulder is bowed in humility.
This is what I believe that Tullian Tchividjian has missed in his exposition of grace. He sure gets the erect head, confident and joyful, on top of the world because he claims his forgiveness. This observer believes he appears to miss the bowed shoulders that recognize shame and the need for repentance.
How might those bowed shoulders look?
- He would have waited longer to remarry and instead have sought long term counseling to deal with his serial relationships.
- He would not return to teaching in the pulpit and instead have taken a humble job, working with others who do not have famous grandfathers to glom off.
- He would have spent time serving the poor in homeless shelters.
- He would have read the books of others who have failed and repented instead of immediately going into celebrity mode.
- He would have learned what Jesus meant when He said He was the Truth.
- He would have never, ever used anyone, man or woman.
- He would have lived near his family in Florida and make up for all the time he was distracted with the other women.
- He would have apologized for allegedly getting others to insult those who called him out on his obvious train wreck of a life as well as have apologized to those he allegedly called *b%$*@.* And Boz??? Really?? he is a good man.
- He would have turned the other cheek and spent a few years making it up to his family and his former churches.
- He would have apologized to the other families whose lives were ruined by his affairs.
- He would have apologized to his extended family, the women who he pursued, those he insulted, and others who he manipulated and used.
Instead all I see are pictures of him trying trying to look like a hipster but failing because he is in his mid 40s with over-bleached teeth, spiked hair, a fake tan, ripped skinny jeans, and a new Texas chick of a wife who is doing everything to pretend that she, too, is young and that that this is all OK because she got the man. Good night! Where are the bowed shoulders? Where is the shame? How could they post these pictures? I would have been so embarrassed if I had acted like this!
I want to thank Nate Sparks and content editor Lauren Larkin for first posting the following thoughtful story by *Lisa* who bravely tells us how she was allegedly groomed by Tullian. Just for the record, I believe that Nate, Lauren and Lisa are telling the truth.
For more information on the time line of Tullian's extracurriculur activities, please refer to this post Tullian Tchividjian – Partial Timeline of Alleged Clergy Sexual Abuse and Spiritual Abuse by Julie Anne Smith and Brad Sargent
**Content Editor: Lauren R.E. Larkin**
In my last post, I critically analyzed the recent public statements by Tullian Tchividjian. I also noted the ways in which Tchividjian uses abusive speech patterns to silence the voices of his critics and subtly shift the narrative, depicting himself as the “good guy” being unjustly victimized. I then dissected all the reasons these claims are utterly false, and why they are indicative of the fact that his is a serial pastoral predator.
I also outlined the depth of Tullian’s lies in a post I penned in March, 2016. In this post I dissected several public statements Tullian had made at the time, and placed them side by side with well-known public accounts of his dishonest, deceitful, and abusive actions.
Today, I want to take a moment to consider some specific statements Tullian has made in light of new information and accusations that have been made known to me.
Evangelicalism
Before I begin, I want to highlight a disturbing reality. Even after everything Tullian Tchividjian has done, after all the lies he has told, after the people he has destroyed and betrayed, he continues to have a platform.
This is because Tullian Tchividjian has preyed upon the brokenness and discontent within Evangelical Christianity to garner a place of privilege and influence for himself. Even as I read his interview with Religious News Services, I was struck by the ways in which he intentionally worked on the guilt and shame of his audience, pointing out specks in hopes of distracting from his own plank.
And what is most disturbing is that the Evangelical church is so deeply entrenched in patriarchal systems that these lies actually work. This is because, Tullian Tchividjian is a product of Evangelical patriarchy.
The grandson of prominent evangelical evangelist Billy Graham, he made a name for himself as a blogger and an author with The Gospel Coalition, perhaps the biggest and most influential purveyor of Evangelical patriarchy in the world. Even after leaving TGC in 2014, he remained an influential pastor in the PCA, the evangelical wing of the Presbyterian Church which currently opposes women’s ordination.
Evangelicalism has become an industrial complex, fueled on the broken bodies and wounded spirits of abuse victims, driven entirely by their abusers. This complex has time and again produced abusive pastors. Men like CJ Mahaney, Matt Chandler, Mark Driscoll, Darin Patrick, RC Sproul, Jr., and Doug Wilson have come to exercise considerable influence precisely because Evangelicalism holds its pastors above reproach, because it is predicated on a system of sin-leveling designed to make the persons in the pews entirely to guilt ridden to ever ask questions.
It is for this reason that, on October 31, 2016, barely a month after Tullian delivered his interview to RNS, after he claimed he had no specific or formal plans to return to the public stage, and after he insisted that he still has a calling to teach the Gospel, Tullian Tchividjian preached a message at Spring Hills Community Church in Santa Rosa, California – a church whose doctrinal statement is straight out of the Evangelical playbook.
In the end, Evangelicalism created Tullian Tchividjian, empowered him to be a serial predator, then groomed his victims to accept his manipulations.
Some Hypocritical Words
On November 11, 2016, Tullian tweeted the following:
On November 12, he tweeted this:
As I read these tweets, I was struck by a disgusting irony. As the following narrative will shows, when Tullian Tchividjian came in contact with a person who was broken and hurting, he manipulated, used, and spiritually and emotionally abused her.
Further, despite the fact that Tullian claims we should not hide the darkest parts of our stories, there is quite a bit of his “darkness” he has worked diligently to keep from the public eye.
I would like to introduce my readers to Lisa.
A Brief Disclaimer
Because of the nature of the narrative below, the woman in question has chosen to remain anonymous. I respect that decision, and her decision not to use her real name has absolutely no bearing on her credibility. Her story has been careful vetted through multiple sources, and it is my position that she ought to be believed and afforded to care deserved by every victim of abuse. Further, through talking both to “Lisa” and to other sources, I have every reason to believe that her experience is indicative of a larger trend of predatory behavior practiced by Tullian Tchividjian.
For this reason, any derogatory or negative comments will be deleted. If a reader wishes to express concern or contend the details of this post, they are advised to email me at the address provided on my “About” page.
Lisa
At the time when Lisa first came into contact with Tullian Tchividjian, she was in the midst of a great deal of personal turmoil. She had grown up deep within the heart of fundamentalism. For many years she attended a church that adhered to the teachings of a well-known celebrity pastor. Over time, she realized that the rules and regulations imposed upon her by the pastors and leaders of her church left her feeling unloved, unvalued, and disenfranchised by the church and its leaders. She had become acutely aware that the system of belief in which she was raised was, on all counts, tantamount to spiritual abuse.
As a result, she was desperately searching for a more genuine and authentic expression of the Christian faith that was not built on the “holier than thou” legalist power politics of her fundamentalist upbringing. This desire was further complicated by the fact that, having since moved into the realm of conservative evangelicalism, she was also recently removed from a situation in which a friend, who was also a pastor, had abused her emotionally and spiritually. He used his position of trust and privilege to coerce her into emotional vulnerability, with the clear and aggressive intent of manipulating her into pastoral sexual abuse.
While his intent was never realized, nevertheless her marriage was in shambles. She was desperately trying to re-earn her husband’s trust and repair the damage done by this pastor’s manipulations.
This backdrop set the stage for Tullian Tchividjian to groom her for further abuse.
Meeting Tullian
Lisa was first contacted by Tchividjian in the late Spring of 2015, during the time shortly after he was officially fired from his position at Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church. At this time, he had been advancing his false narrative that his wife had betrayed him, and that his own affair had subsequently occurred out of the vulnerability of grief and confusion. And, like so many people, Lisa believed this narrative whole-heartedly.
She had been a fan of Tchividjian’s message for a while, and had found his message of grace in the midst of profound brokenness to speak so deeply into her own life. Tchividjian was known for encouraging his audience to be honest with themselves and about their own brokenness, and to recognize that God loved them not for some perfection they had achieved or had to achieve, but because that is who God is: God loves the unlovely. This message gave Lisa a source of hope in the midst of so much pain, confusion, and the overwhelming guilt that the abuse she had suffered was somehow her fault.
Because of this, when she saw the way that Tchividjian’s critics were addressing him on Twitter, she chose to do what she believed to be the right thing: boldly declare her support for Tchividjian in the midst of what she believed to be a “personal tragedy” and thanked him for the profound impact his message had had on her life.
Lisa was amazed when Tullian immediately reached out to her via direct message. He thanked her for her support, and offered to talk to her if she ever needed anything. He gave her his personal cell phone number and told her to call anytime.
While she admits that she felt weird about the speed with which Tchividjian seemed to swoop in, she dismissed her concerns. She and Tchividjian shared mutual friends, and she had even briefly met him once before, at the Liberate 2015 conference after-party just a few months prior.[1] She believed Tullian to be genuine, and provided him her phone number in return.
She was again struck by surprise when he immediately began text messaging her.
Red Flags
One of the things Lisa noticed as her conversations with Tullian began, was that he seemed to have already researched her. He knew who she was through their mutual friends, and had already known that her marriage was struggling. During one of their conversations he even stated, “I already know your story, and now you know mine.”
She was put off by this a bit, and often thought his patterns of communication resembled her previous pastoral abuser. But he had a way of disarming her concerns, and she dismissed it as “hypervigilance.”
When I asked her why this was, she explained that no pastor had ever actually cared about her before. If she was having marital problems, her old pastors would have immediately blamed her and told her to submit more. Her opinion was not valued, and she regularly felt dismissed and disrespected by persons in leadership.
Tullian, however, made her feel understood and heard. Despite her lack of formal training, he wanted to talk theology and encouraged her to explore her beliefs more. Also, she felt a sense of solidarity. Tullian would often talk about how he didn’t know if he would ever reconcile with his wife, he didn’t know if she even still loved him. He spun a narrative of solidarity, using Lisa’s loneliness to make it seem he was just like her – she felt like the two of them were on a level playing field, that they were friends, that he cared about her. Tullian often talked about the importance of being the kind of person someone could run to in failure and at this time, Lisa felt like a complete failure.
Despite noting that he was defrocked, he explicitly offered her personal pastoral care.
He insisted she call him if she needed anything at any time. Tullian often confided in her about how depressed he was feeling and seemed open and honest about his failings and insecurities. He was not perfect, but she believed him to be largely the victim of circumstances beyond his control. This led her to open up about her own past with abusive pastors and religious leaders.
Even in the midst of all of this, there was sometimes an uneasy tension. Sometimes Tullian would text her, and his words seemed like a sexual advance. She would quickly redirect him, relying on skills she had learned within fundamentalism and deflecting with a joke. When Tullian noticed her uneasiness, he would subtly shift his words to convince her she had simply misunderstood what he meant. Also, he would use her past experiences to convince her she was being overly sensitive and misperceiving his intent, convincing her to distrust her own instincts and lower her defenses.
On one occasion, he was a bit bolder. In a text message, he explicitly told her that he had been dreaming about her, and he told her it had been a “good” dream.
As the conversation continued, it became increasingly clear he wanted her to know the dream had been sexual. She tried to deflect by joking “Hope I was just selling you some good drugs” and he replied “Something like that.”
A couple of times, he sent her selfies of himself working out. He regularly commented on her looks.
At one point, he even sent her a link to a clothing line, telling her that she should dress in that brand of clothing because it would look really good on her. He told her that every time he saw that brand, he would think of her.
In spite of all these things, he continued to use the abuses she had suffered to condition her to trust him. He engaged her in theological conversations, which helped her flourish in her faith in a number of ways. Because he listened to her, it made her feel empowered and respected. As such, she routinely dismissed her concerns and allowed him to convince her these were innocent comments.
Controlling Behavior
Tullian often used Lisa to control the narrative of the controversies which swirled around him. When Julie Anne of Spiritual Sounding Board (whom Tullian called “the sheep lady,” a reference to her Twitter handle) began to question Tullian’s account of events and hint that he was a serial pastoral predator, Tullian would convince Lisa to attack her. He would tell her exactly what to say, and insisted that he needed her to defend him because he needed to keep himself above the fray.[2]
He went as far as to get Lisa to target his brother, Boz. He told Lisa that Boz was a liar, that he had no idea what was actually going on it Tullian’s life, and that he was simply carrying out a vendetta against him. He told Lisa to call his brother a “douche” and told her “pray that he dies.” When she refused to do either and took exception to the latter comment, he insisted he was “just joking.”
He also went to great lengths to restrict any interactions Lisa might have with his ex-wife Kim by telling her lies about Kim. He repeatedly told her that Kim was cold, manipulative, and vindictive. He insisted Kim was out to ruin him for telling the truth about her affairs. He even warned Lisa to be careful who she interacted with because Kim had people who spied on him for her.
Tullian did everything in his power to limit the people Lisa spoke with about him; he wanted to ensure that she did not seek out information beyond the narrative he told her. He intentionally convinced her of lies, then risked her public image and relationship by manipulating her into fiercely defending him against persons who were presenting the truth.
Lisa was convinced they were friends. However, Tchividjian’s goal was not to care for her like a friend, but to manipulate her into being a puppet to prop up his own ego.
Emotional Neglect
Tullian was especially interested in talking to Lisa when she was struggling with her relationship with her husband. If he asked her how things were going, and she gave a positive answer about progress in their relationship, he would either cut off the conversation or try to convince her that she was being too optimistic. Once he went so far as to tell her she was deceiving herself about the progress in her marriage, that there is often a calm before a storm, and that her optimism was entirely misplaced.
In contrast, Lisa was expected to be at Tullian’s every emotional beck and call. When he was happy, she was expected to celebrate with him. When he told her he had been depressed or that his feelings were hurt by critique and criticism, she was expected to be there to offer encouragement and prayer.
She also saw how he was using others, both men and women, in this same way. In one conversation, he would seem to be doing well financially, then he would send out a group text—including Lisa—asking people for money. He even once sent out a group text asking people for ideas on how to raise money as he considered relaunching the Liberate conference from his newly acquired position at Willow Creek Church, of the PCA. Participants in the group text offered a myriad of ideas of how Tullian could raise money. One person offered to help him flip-houses to make some cash, and other chimed in that they would help. When Lisa and some others offered to assist, too, with an emphasis on comradery and community, Tullian replied in clear terms: “I’m in it for the money, and the money alone.”
It was after this that Tullian asked Lisa privately to be his official fundraiser for Liberate. He needed 30k to launch the new website and instructed Lisa to “get him 12k by next week”. When Lisa insisted that she didn’t have any idea how to do that, he told her that “6k would work”. When she pushed back again, insisting that she didn’t know anyone with that kind of cashflow he told her to “ask 12 people for $500 each, or rob a bank. I don’t care how you come up with the money, just do it.” Lisa suggested to Tullian that there were a couple of people skilled in building websites that she knew personally who could help him and avoid the upfront cost. He responded with, “we want only the best” and then cut off the conversation.
Towards the end of their friendship, in the weeks leading up to Tullian’s second pastoral sex abuse scandal in March, 2016, Lisa began to distrust him. In light of this distrust, Lisa confronted Tullian about his lies. Instead of confessing and telling the truth, he doubled down on his deceptions and attempts to convince her that she shouldn’t believe what other people were telling her.
Even after the news broke, Tullian tried to lie to her. He tried to convince her that the whole thing was being blown out of proportion, that he had done nothing wrong. Lisa was devastated by his lies. She asked him to tell her the truth and asked why he deceived her. But Tullian offered only half-hearted apologies followed by further attempts to manipulate and control her.
Broken from the depths of his lies and realizing he was an abuser and not a friend, Lisa and her husband discussed the situation and decided it was best for her to no longer speak to Tullian.
One is forced to wonder, how does Tullian justify his treatment of Lisa with the words from his tweets above?
Other Women
This was hardly an isolated incident, Lisa was personally aware of at least 10 other women with whom Tchividjian had a similar dynamic.[3] Like Lisa, several of them were fed lies and disinformation, then manipulated into using Tullian’s carefully crafted words to carry out coordinated attacks against his critics via social media.
The most interesting of these stories occurred in the Summer of 2015. A woman by the name of Stacie contacted Lisa and told her she was a friend of Tullian’s, and also lived in the same town as Lisa. She strongly pursued a friendship with Lisa, and regularly insisted the two of them should get together. After Lisa asked Tullian about Stacie, and he confirmed that she was “a cool chick,” Lisa exchanged numbers with her. They began talking regularly and exchanged text messages frequently. They even went so far as to make plans to get together. However, Lisa was stood up each time by Stacie. In one text exchange, Stacie told Lisa that she was going to be in town, so they should get together. Lisa was appropriately confused and said, “I thought you live in my town…” Lisa soon learned that Stacie had moved to Orlando for her job.
Orlando, of course, is where Tullian was living at the time. Lisa would later learn the two had begun dating during this time. Tullian and Stacie married in September.
This is especially curious, because Stacie’s relationship with Tullian began in similar fashion to all the other women he targeted. In fact, he and Stacie had been exchanging messages during the time Tullian claimed to be attempting to reconcile with his wife, Kim in the Summer of 2015, after his own sexual misconduct became public.
Conclusion
Like so many others, Lisa was groomed by her church to ignore the emotional and spiritual abuse of a pastor because of his position of privilege and power. And, as is so often the case, she was left humiliated and devastated, while Tullian began the work of rebuilding his platform. Now, a mere six months later, he is preaching again while she continues to cope with the pains of betrayal which continue to resurface as she sees so many around her embracing his return.
And like so many other celebrity pastors before him, Tullian Tchividjian has time and again revealed himself to be a serial pastoral predator. Despite this, churches, blogs, and Christian news outlets continue to place him on a pedestal, amplifying Tullian’s message to their respective audiences. The white male oligarch is uplifted and praised, even at the expense of his many victims.
This disturbing trend can be seen clearly in his interview with Jonathan Merritt. As he answered Merritt’s questions regarding his many abuses, Tullian Tchividjian portrayed his actions not as the acts of a serial predator, but as “God ruining his plans.” Yet, as I retell Lisa’s story, I struggle to find God in Tullian’s actions.
He attempted to paint these events as ‘trials” he has had to endure, but the reality is they are abuses, manipulations, and injustices that he perpetrated under the guise of “pastoral care.”
Tullian even had the audacity to claim that the true devastation of his sins was the loss of his own platform and privilege.
I know of a few people who would disagree.
[1] Sources confirm that Lisa was, in fact, at this event. Further, one source noted that Tullian seemed to be watching Lisa all night. At one point, Lisa was dancing with a group of friends and Tullian was sitting nearby. The source described the look on his face as “leering” and said that, knowing what they now know about Tullian’s predatory nature, even thinking about the look he had on his face is “haunting.”
[2] Speaking with several other sources, I talked to several people who could corroborate this information. One source, even confirmed that they knew of multiple persons – men and women – whom Tullian regularly used to fight battles for him online.
[3] In speaking with other sources, I have been able to confirm these numbers are most certainly not an exaggeration.
first happy thanks giving
@ brian:
Love you, brian!
Dee and Deb: It is your high view of grace that both attracted me here and keeps me reading, pondering. My thanks to you both and all who contribute here.
Sparks also got more insight from a woman named “Kara” about Tullian:
Master of Manipulation
https://natesparks130.com/2016/11/23/master-of-manipulation/
Tullian is one troubled individual. I hope this information gets out there, so there are no more victims. I hope people stopped getting taken in by this guy.
Very disturbing. Clearly, TT needs to get some help to deal with his “issues.” Sickening!
It is not a good idea to share about your struggling marriage to someone who could potentially be a mate or consider themselves a mate. That is crossing an important marital boundary.
One area of caution or disagreement I have on how this is presented is how strongly it is linked to male privilege/patriarchy. Cheating respects no gender.
Certainly, Tullian is supported by what I consider corrupt power structures. However, I can tell you from very painful, personal experience that being a white male did not protect me from a well-known evangelical denomination turning on me when my (now ex) wife cheated and left me.
A sadly consistent theme I have gleaned from my work with faithful spouses is how they are the ones usually blamed or abused by religious structures regardless of their gender or status–yes, I can tell you horror stories of MALE pastors unjustly destroyed by their wive’s infidelity.
A favorite verse of the New Calvinists, who have misplaced grace, is Romans 8:1:
“There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.” (ESV)
The ESV drops the rest of that verse found in some of the original manuscripts and recorded in various Bible versions:
” … who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”
To walk after the flesh and not after the Spirit (which enables you to overcome sin), and claim that grace covers your rebellion, is not what God had in mind! Dietrich Bonhoeffer in his book “The Cost of Discipleship” calls this “cheap grace.” He puts it this way:
“Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline. Communion without confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ.” Cheap grace, Bonhoeffer says, is to hear the gospel preached as follows: “Of course you have sinned, but now everything is forgiven, so you can stay as you are and enjoy the consolations of forgiveness.”
Tullian’s walk, as demonstrated by his actions, is a journey which cheapens grace. Many New Calvinists are on this same route, which eventually leads to antinomianism.
“… over-bleached teeth, spiked hair, a fake tan, ripped skinny jeans, and a .. chick of a wife …”
Church member, if your pastor fits this description, run like hell!
Cousin of Eutychus wrote:
Dee and Deb understand the difference between “cheap grace” and “costly grace”, to borrow those terms from Dietrich Bonhoeffer. TWW continues to chronicle the failures of ministers and ministries which have distorted the Grace message.
On Thanksgiving Eve, I am thankful for the work that Dee and Deb do and for keeping the Main Thing the main thing in their writing.
Wow. Sad and bad. Glad for the light being shone on him and those like him who do evil. Your sins will find you out, and how.
Also, thanks for sharing this! I had no idea how incredibly bad it was with Tullian. Very dark stuff.
What I learned many years ago is that if a guy will cheat on wife #1 while still married, then it’s very likely that he’ll cheat on subsequent wives.
Given that Tullian has preached twice at Spring Hill in Santa Rosa, I wonder if he will somehow become attached to that church.
Beyond that, I’m simply gobsmacked. Did Tullian just think he was never going to be discovered???
Divorce Minister wrote:
One thing complementarianism does to women is that it encourages them to be, or to act, naive and to engage in other behaviors that leave them more vulnerable to being taken advantage of than it does men.
Christian Gender Complementarianism is Christian-Endorsed Codependency for Women (And That’s Not A Good Thing)
https://missdaisyflower.wordpress.com/2016/03/29/christian-gender-complementarianism-is-christian-endorsed-codependency-for-women/
Max wrote:
I think Bonhoeffer saw ‘sin’ as having an effect far beyond its origin …. it’s as though the one who sins releases an evil that he can no longer control and the sin then affects the whole Body of Christ who suffer, as Our Lord Himself suffered on the Cross. Bonhoeffer puts it this way:
” We now know that we have been taken up and borne in the humanity of Jesus, and therefore that new nature we now enjoy means that we too must bear the sins and sorrows of others. The incarnate lord makes his followers the brothers and sisters of all humanity. The “philanthropy” of God (Titus 3:4) revealed in the Incarnation is the ground of Christian love towrd all on earth that bear the name of human. The form of Christ incarnate makes the Church into the body of Christ. All the sorrows of humanity falls upon that form, and only through that form can they be borne. The earthly form of Christ is the form that died on the cross. The image of God is the image of Christ crucified. It is to this image that the life of the disciples must be conformed: in other words, they must be conformed to his death (Phil. 3:10; Rom. 6:4). The Christian life is a life of crucifixion.”
(Dietrich Bonhoeffer)
Just read this after finishing listening to a podcast and the behaviours described were similiar enough that I link them below:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uO1tj0g9FCM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sf5i908RJDo
The back story is of a serial bigamist and fraudster – the second episode which I linked first deals with the manipulative behaviour that – so may be of more interest to listen to first for people here.
Quite a number of years ago now, through the eye-opening experience of knowing 2 very different sociopaths, I came to the realization that some people do not feel shame, no more than a blind person can see. These people learn to fake the expressions we make when we feel sorry or repentent but it’s only an act. They sleep fine at night.
The amazing thing I observed then, and have since then, is that the rest of us tend to take on the shame for these people and feel it for them. We often impute it to them even though there’s no sign of it.
I’m not sure how someone who can’t feel shame can really repent and believe. It’s something I’ve often contemplated. God knows; I leave it in His hands.
I don’t know if TT is one of these people. If he is, these posts won’t bring him to feeling the shame he ought to feel, they will instead irritate and frustrate him.
siteseer wrote:
I have seen them turn the Sincere Sorrow, Remorse, and Repentance on and off like a light switch.
CLICK ON! CLICK OFF! CLICK ON! CLICK OFF!
It sounds like Tullian was grooming an entire harem, not just one person. If the church were not into labeling such necessary information as “gossip”, the word would have gotten around sooner that this guy was a master manipulator and far fewer people would have their lives mixed up by his misbehavior. Unfortunately scuttlebutt within christian circles is to be firmly suppressed unless it is pastor positive.
We may yet get a drive by come and tut tut all of us, announcing we should do something better with our time. I’m thankful TWW is a place that cuts through such nonsense.
Whatever ills I could speak of Tchividjian – and there are many – at the end of the day, this is the inescapable result of professional clergy. How else is he supposed to pay his bills?
Dee Holmes (fka mirele) wrote:
Now that TT has settled down with his Newest Wife, how long before he starts casting around for the next one?
Bill M wrote:
It’s called “Keeping my options open”.
Christiane wrote:
Great way to put it Christiane! Sins, particularly the transgressions of pastors, do indeed have far-reaching consequences.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Indeed, I imagine someone with such errant proclivities does not bat 1000 and lose a few like Lisa who wise up to them. Thus they need to have plenty of new recruits to fill their void. I wish Lisa well and hope she and her husband can mend their relationship while staying well clear of charming carnivores.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
If you read the other posts at Sparks’ blog, Tullian asks his many female and male friends to give him money, or loan him money.
Tullian got a married couple he was friends with to loan him $11-K to hire a private eye to spy on his first wife Kim to see if she was cheating on him.
He took his good sweet time paying that money back – the couple said they had to keep asking him for it, if I remember correctly.
@ Daisy:
And not just any married couple– it was his affair partner (self-described in those terms in a comment on the article) and her husband– to whom he has so far forgotten to apologize.
TT has addressed his thousands of adoring Facebook fans to clear the air about the things said and written about him. He claims some are true and some are absolutely false. Notice that the true things aren’t absolutely so like the false things. He forgets to inform the fans of just which are which. Couldn’t he have mentioned just one sorta true thing and one absolutively false thing?
Less than an hour ago a polite commenter, addressing TT as “brother”, said he’d be able to consider TT’s statement more seriously if numerous civil comments weren’t being deleted. I was unable to copy it, and already—– POOOF!
Dave A A wrote:
Remaining vague is kind of like creating verbal tofu. It lets those who already think well of one to read into one’s words the flavor of their approval. For those who are skeptical of the vagueries, their reading will come across as infused with bitterness.
Here, Mr Tchividjian appears to call others to discern and decide for themselves — a noble task, indeed — but he has left them with the flimsy framework of his vagueness. Specifics can be verified as fact or fiction. Vagueries are slick enough to be reinterpreted at will.
However, fascinating things do start popping up when you absorb yourself in as comprehensive of a timeline as possible, and the specifics thereof. That partial timeline post at Spiritual Sounding Board is the result of that … and I have even more to add.
I know this is off topic but your Email does not seem to work (at least with my system at this moment – it has in the past)
I thought you might appreciate the link below:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2016/11/23/kevin-giles-the-ets-response-to-grudem-and-ware/
Dave A A wrote:
All there needs to be is one insignificant detail that isn’t precisely right and the person can claim “it’s not all true.” Like maybe he doesn’t feel his teeth are overly whitened?
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Live in a house with less than 3000 sq ft. Shop at Walmart. Mow yards and shovel snow. Uhm ….. doesn’t his new wife have money? I wonder if they signed pre-nupts?
Dave A A wrote:
So, which “some” equals two, and which “some” equals one thousand and two?
L. Lee wrote:
YES! thank you
Dave A A wrote:
I’ve read on other sites that are talking about this that he is (or his admin is) deleting any posts that ask him questions or are critical of him, or critical of how he’s behaved.
This site has a promo pic of an event with TT on March 4 and 5 of this year. If you click their link it goes to Spring Hill, so it is possible that he was even being “restored” by SH earlier than October:
https://churchwatchcentral.com/2016/03/09/tullian-tchividjian-restoration-pulls-a-hillsong-hoo-ha/
Dee Holmes (fka mirele) wrote:
This is a good question. I’ve wondered the same thing about my former pastor who does the same thing, except that the church he pastors keeps covering for him and he keeps preying on the vulnerable women who come to him for counseling or help.
The best I can guess is that in some ways, it is just a game to him. He pushes and pushes the edge until his wife gets fed up and ‘finds out’ about it. Then confessiin, toss the woman out of the church, call in the other ministers they are ‘accountable’ to for ‘chastisement and d restoration.’ Rinse and repeat.
I don’t think he believes he will ever be held truly accountable. It is sick and sad.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Why bother? He had a mistress until he got caught. I suspect his greatest reform going forward will be in not getting caught.
Nancy2 wrote:
I believe a truly repentant man would. But like Driscoll and others, he is addicted to his lifestyle, and probably bound to it through consumer debt. Such a sad, far cry from the founding of Christianity.
siteseer wrote:
That’s a very good way of putting it.
Some while ago, researchers studying the variola virus (responsible for smallpox) isolated its complete genome. They discovered that it has many human genes, or IOW that it shares many genes with humans. This went a long way towards explaining the virulence of smallpox; longStoryShort, the particular genes it shares with us enable it to produce proteins that the immune system passes by because it doesn’t recognise them as foreign.
siteseer then wrote:
I believe we do this because we want to which in turn is because there’s something pleasurable about reaching out to reconcile with someone. It’s often said about relationships that making up, after falling out, feels so good that it’s almost better than not falling out in the first place. In fact, I think we can put it as strongly as this: deeming someone to be repentant and reaching out to them triggers a powerful endorphin-like response in us (and maybe a literal endorphin release – other Wartburgers will know better than I here) that we find almost addictive. Which explains the extraordinary lengths people will go to for someone who shows remorse, even in the face of all evidence, reason and common sense, and even to the extent of welcoming them back again, and again, and again.
This, to me, highlights the tremendous need for a strong community to respect the reservations of its more cool and detached members. Indeed, no community can be resilient for long if it does not: it is ripe for takeover by a sociopath pretending to be a victim. It is very dangerous to attack, reflexively, anybody who examines the evidence presented by a claimed victim as “hateful” or “re-victimising them” or “calling them a liar”. For one thing, that’s unhealthy for a genuine victim (because it provides only one half of a supportive environment, insofar as it prevents the establishing of healthy boundaries). But if the “victim” is actually a sociopath, it immediately hands them a virulent and dangerous powerbase in the community.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
In Baptist fundamentalism this is seen in the idea of ‘struggling’ in which the person repeatedly makes a public pretense? of repentance of even of belief itself but this never lasts long and is then repeated and repeated and repeated. A public re-dedication of one’s life is sometimes seen. The ‘community’ responds by accepting the whole process as being ‘struggling’ and as long as one continues to struggle then one is simply weak in the faith, not reprobate or unregenerate. Forgiveness and support uber alles, no matter how bad it gets.
Sermons about praying for someone for years and then seeing a? or one more? death bed declaration of faith make the long time tolerant person seem extraordinarily righteous. Likewise, the spouse or parent who may have tolerated outrageous behavior and even abuse for decades is granted recognition as themselves being extraordinarily righteous.
There are rewards for all for playing that game, to the extent of course that sometimes? many times? it is just that-a game. However, to label it a game of course may not be totally accurate for all cases, so who dares to call it a game? The snap you hear is the closing of the trap of the game, when it is that.
@ Jeannette Altes:
It’s a compulsion like alcoholism. That doesn’t excuse it. I would no more have a sexual complusive in charge of my church or parish than I would an active alcoholic. Both would cause untold damage.
ABGMFS
It has been brought to my attention that today is Thanksgiving in the US.
I don’t mean to gatecrash, but I too give thanks for all of my transatlantic siblings at TWW (including those from north of The Other Border, for missing whose thanksgiving in October I apologise).
I hope you all have much to celebrate, enough with which to celebrate, and good folk among whom to celebrate.
Daisy wrote:
From Kara’s story:
“Tullian treated me as a theological equal, which was very meaningful considering this went against my church experience.”
Actually treating her as Jesus treated the Samaritan woman at the well. That is powerful. No wonder TT got as far as he did.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
GMFC [Good morning from California].
Thank you, Nick, for the good wishes for those of us celebrating Thanksgiving across The Pond. I am on a special mission today to locate a blind, homeless woman and her service dog. When she was sighted, she used to sing in a choir at a mega church that we both attended for a few years.
I talked to a social worker about services available to get her an apartment and off the streets, as well as veterinary care for her dog (bath, shots, etc.).
I have a note pad and I am going looking for her today to see what she would like in the way of housing, help, etc. There is a Chinese restaurant that is the only place open for food so I may get us Chinese take out if I find her.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Guess: A Bonnie Good Morning From Scotland.
Velour wrote:
Very close, and probably better than what I actually meant! The B stood for “belated”…
🙂
Thank you for sharing Lisa’s story. I believe Lisa.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
LOL.
What can I say? The evil Calvinist fruit is showing. Take note of it, and run like hell from it. It brings only death; it knows not life, truth, or shame.
This Tullian hipster fraud is a joke, but in his mind, he is a superstar…although super “deceiver” is more appropriate, and I am sure he gets some sort of erotic gratification from admiring himself, either physically or what he perceives to be “mentally.” He is just another false teacher in a very, very long line. He makes me sick!
He is a nothing and should be treated as such.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
This is an interesting thought. it could be the cool and detached folks have simply been bitten one too many times by liars so they wait till the full story comes out to make up their minds.
I understand the impulse to always believe a victim and in most cases this is the right path to take. (Certainly in a one on one that would be my inclination). But there are times when it is not.
I think I have mentioned before I had a man tell me his wife was abusive but this is apparently a common tactic of abusers themselves? For me personally, if someone I am close to tells me something I will believe them until proven wrong. But sometimes they have, and that is not fun. Strangers I guess I believe the story that sounds most plausible and has the most evidence.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
I wondered if it was Gaelic for LGBTQ…
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
i.e. Free-base doublepluswarmfeelies for the Righteous enablers.
And the victim stands between the Righteous enablers and their fix.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
And the most common characteristic of a successful sociopath is the ability to play the Poor Poor Innocent Victim Pity Me Pity Me Pity Me at the click of a switch.
It’s a vital weapon in the sociopath’s arsenal; that’s how they groom third-party allies. I’ve seen it in action with my Sweet Little Angel of a brother, once extending over a 10+ year revenge plan setup; that’s why He Always Wins.
Lea wrote:
I think it’s a little of both. Undoubtedly some of us have more of a tendency to be cool and detached than others; if this is padded out by some real-life experience (both positive and negative) then that’s generally a good thing.
Back in my Glasgow days, Lesley and I knew two hospital doctors, one of whom worked in A&E (or ER, if you prefer). They often found it necessary to be emotionally detached from their patients, because otherwise they couldn’t have done their jobs. You might say that, indirectly, too much compassion would have killed their patients.
Detachment isn’t always a good thing – sometimes a person needs strong empathy, obviously. I suppose it emphasises the point that there’s a time and a place for everything. As someone who probably does tend to be more detached, I recognise there’s a time for me to step back and let the huggers take over (OK, I know that’s not a good way of putting it, but you know what I mean!). But there’s also a time to take the lead and deal fairly but firmly with people who err too far on the side of believing someone. Especially</strong if believing them necessarily means taking sides against someone else. In those cases, I entirely agree about evidence – to my mind, evidence is the main thing.
Dave A A wrote:
As of now, it never existed, Comrade.
doubleplusuncomment, doubleplusunperson.
L! L! T! T!
L! L! T! T!
L! L! T! T!
Dave A A wrote:
Why should He Who Can Do No Wrong apologize for anything?
NJ wrote:
Oof, a rare instance of an evangelical leader treating a woman as a theological equal and it turns out it’s actually a sexual predator’s grooming strategy.
Yikes.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
There probably isn’t a Gaelic term for LGBTQ – it’ll just be LGBTQ. Kind of an acronym/loanword.
Is it just me or does Tullian sound like a middle school boy in his communication with this woman? My creepo meter is off the charts.
One thing we must never forget is these types don’t just wake up one day at, say 40, and start this behavior. They are good at hiding the con and agenda for a long time. Insulated careers that include stages with adoring listeners, help. Celebrity Pastor is perfect.
But I am still amazed he lasted as long as he did. My guess? He won’t go away anytime soon.
And here I thought he just fell asleep with the bleaching trays in.
@ Lea:
Maybe the Ronald Reagan line of “trust but verify” would fit?
Maybe take the person at his word that he’s a victim until / unless evidence to the contrary starts coming out?
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
I wonder how Tullian justifies his behavior to himself (or, if he lacks a conscience, maybe he doesn’t feel the need to do so at all). But if he does…
Tullian used to have a TV show on every week on TBN. I used to watch it. The guy’s main preaching message was a hyper-grace one.
If he does try to justify his shoddy behavior (to himself), it may be that he does so by appealing to Grace. If he does, I think he holds a warped view of Grace.
I was saying on Julie Anne’s blog about this that Grace is not a “get out of jail free card” that Christians can or should use to do whatever they want (even bad stuff) and just brush it off by saying, “But it’s okay because Grace!”
If you repeatedly, willingly sin in the same area of life (such as having all these affairs with women that TT has done), I think there are portions of the New Testament that says God will eventually chastise you (if you’re actually a believer and not a wolf in sheep’s clothing),
that God’s attitude is not,
“Oh, it’s OK he keeps taking advantage of women and sleeping around, because he’s forgiven! I’ll just keep overlooking it, because I like bestowing grace all over the place.”
The Bible also tells church people to give guys like TT the boot until they show evidence of repenting. (The Bible says do not even eat with a man who says he’s a Christ-follower if he’s living in habitual sin.)
NJ wrote:
If more churches did what the Bible said (to weep with those who weep, for one thing), it would go a long way in helping those who hurt.
My experience in my time of need, when I got the courage to approach Christians for help, was to be scolded or shamed for admitting I was weak and needed support.
If these hurting men and women had safe people in the church to talk to, to hold their hand through difficult times (or whatever they were dealing with), people who would have given them encouragement, guys like Tullian would not be able to prey on them so easily, IMO.
Edward wrote:
I think this was one thing Sparks got into in one of his blog posts about Tullian.
If a church or theological belief set keeps teaching women that women are inferior to men or should not be trust or lead or teach…
It can leave a hurting woman, or one who feels devalued, into an easy target for a manipulator to take advantage of her – all just by treating her as an equal, and with respect.
That is a sad, sad commentary on gender complementarianism (or Christian patriarchalism) all of which purports to view women with respect and equality – if that were so, why do both systems have the effect of making women feel like they are unappreciated, undervalued, etc??
@ Lydia:
I noticed a few of the women said he would text them sexually suggestive comments or double entendres.
One or more of them said he would also text them photos of him at the gym, working out. Sigh. I hate it when men do that. It’s kind of arrogant and cheesy.
A lot of men also do it on dating sites – they pose in really tight shirts or shirtless. I roll my eyes at this sort of thing.
Daisy wrote:
Well, he’s a horndog always on the prowl. Does that surprise anyone?
(Orders from Captain Bonerhelmet cannot be refused.)
In the words of the prophet Right Said Fred:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTHbFapz4IM
Daisy wrote:
Feature (for the ManaGAWD who keeps his church that way), Not Bug.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
From what I’ve seen of Gaelic spellings, you never know.
Have you heard the one that Gaelic is deliberately spelled that way to screw with English minds?
Lydia wrote:
Arrested Development cases (especially SEXUAL arrested development) are nothing new.
Remember Got Hard of IBLP? Now THAT was grade-school level!
Has anybody seen TT’s “Facebook Profile Pic” over at Spiritual Sounding Board?
https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2016/11/22/tullian-tchividjian-partial-timeline-of-alleged-clergy-sexual-abuse-and-spiritual-abuse/
Looks like a cross between a Doc Savage cover and buff gay dating service pic.
Daisy wrote:
I dislike much of marketing these days but I’m not sure whether the buyer or the seller is to blame.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I call that look “Soulful Crossfit Bro”
@ Velour:
When I was reading your post, your name wasn’t visible because I had scrolled too far down. But when I saw the content of the post, I thought, “That has to be Velour!” You’re so kind hearted. Hope you had a successful mission today.
Former CLCer wrote:
yes!
very kind-hearted
I hope she is appreciated for all that she does for TWW and for others. She has been much victimized by people but it has not made her bitter. Instead, she seems to want to help other victims even more.
Sometimes you will read what a person writes without seeing their name and you will ‘know’ who it is…… this sometimes happens when an individual(s) displays a consistent pattern of ‘negativity’ and also an open mean-spiritedness in aggressive remarks to others;
but Velour IS the opposite:
consistently kind-hearted to others in her comments and I believe in her Christian manner of living as well. It is good that people can read what she writes and recognize her as the author before they even see her name.
That says so much. 🙂
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I actually have a copy of that song.
I used to buy “Greatest Hits Of…” CDs.
I have CD titles like, “Greatest Hits of the 1990s,” or “Greatest Hits of 1997 [or 1984, or whatever year],” and I ended up with that song, with a lot of other weird or cheesy ones, such as “Baby Got Back,” or “Ice Ice Baby.”
(No, I did NOT buy the CDs for those specific songs – but I have them because they came on the CDs, most of which I put copies of on my computer, so I can listen to them in iTunes if I want to.
I do admit to sometimes listening to stuff like “Baby Got Back,” or whatever, if I need a good laugh.)
I just said on Julie Anne’s blog under her Tullian post:
Every time I see his [Tullian’s] extremely white teeth, I think of that ’80s song, Freeway Of Love, where Aretha Franklin sings,
“Knew you’d be a vision in white / How’d you get your pants so tight”
But in my mind, when I see those photos of Tullian Tchividjian, I shift the lines around to something like, “How’d you get your teeth so white?”
For those not familiar with the song:
Freeway Of Love
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISVMovHZUMg
My Internet off work for Thanksgiving. Will reply to comments tomorrow, I hope. Happy t-day!
Evangelicalism has really been trending in an unsettling direction lately. The latest pastime among self-styled apologists: defending the Crusades (not Billy Graham’s crusades–the medieval ones!) Why, Reclaiming The Mind had a whole article justifying the Sack of Constantinople. What on earth does any of this have to do with apologetics?
Even though it’s Thanksgiving, TT is keeping a close eye on his Facebook page. I commented and it was almost immediately deleted, and now I’m blocked from commenting on his page. I said something similar to this, “I’m just curious…how did you keep them all straight? You must have an amazing memory.”
I guess he knew I was talking about all the different women.
MidwesternEasterner wrote:
Wish fulfillment.
Daisy wrote:
Feature, not Bug.
(“FRESH MEAT!!!!!” drool drool lick chops)
Christiane wrote:
Indeed so.
In this, and the last discussion thread, there has been some mention of the long-lasting emotional (and similarly invisible) repercussions of abuse suffered early in life. There’s also been some scepticism about fundagelical speakers who believe that these repercussions can be waved away because Some Bible Verses I Quoted.
True story.
Some 20 years ago now I was listening to a laddie by the name of David Mansell describing his gradual learning to listen to the Holy Spirit in real time. (Mansell’s first word from God, apparently, came to him while he was actually in the middle of preaching one day. God told him, “Dave? You’re an old wind-bag”. Good place to start…) I forget some of the details, but the essentials are all present. I’m relaying in the third person what Mansell said in the first person, so I hope you’ll forgive the clunky prose.
Many years ago, Mansell was a visiting preacher somewhere down in England. At some point, the thought came to him: There’s somebody here who’s had a tragedy in their life. At first he dismissed it – after all, tragedy is all too common and that’s probably true in any group of people. But the thought persisted, in the manner of the voice of the Holy Spirit, so in due course he told everyone that there was someone present who’d had a tragedy in their life, and that he’d pray with that person. And one man in particular came forward, saying that his life held a tragedy. Mansell asked him what it was.
He answered: “I killed my son”.
During the War, the man had been in the Home Guard – too old for active service, but entrusted instead with taking part in a last-ditch defence in the event of an invasion. And that threat was very real; bombs were falling daily on the cities and people were dying. The nation was at war in a way that we have never been before or since. Thus, the man had a rifle and it was his responsibility to keep it in constant working order. I forget the exact circumstances, but at some point while he was with his son, the gun went off and his son was fatally wounded. An investigation determined that the circumstances were accidental and exonerated the father of blame. But of course, that made no difference to him. His son was dead, by his own hand, and no passage of time had ever brought healing.
Mansell pondered: Lord – I’ve no idea what to say to this man. What do I tell him? God said to him, “Tell him: I watched My Son die, too”. Mansell did; moments later, the man said: “It’s gone!”. Meaning, the decades-long burden of sorrow and guilt.
I’m confident that Wartburgers will understand what I am, and am not, saying here. Mansell did not claim that he had a new magic formula for healing tragedy (meanwhile, buy my book, I Kissed Counselling Goodbye…). Nor did he promise that God had guaranteed to help him prophesy away every, or any, other trauma. The whole point of the story was that he, Mansell, had been absolutely helpless to give anything meaningful to this bereaved father. Simply, God gave him some words for that specific man, on that specific occasion.
The thing is, I don’t believe there was all that much significance in the words themselves. What actually happened was that Jesus backed up his promise: whoever receives you, receives me. It wasn’t discovering the right magic words that brought freedom to this man; it was the risen Jesus himself. It’s a great loss when we, the followers of Jesus, can’t do any better than try to copy what we think he might have done.
We’re right to call out fakery and quackery that promises what it can’t deliver, especially when it makes those promises in the name of “Jesus”. That doesn’t mean, though, that Jesus can’t do the same things now that he did when physically on earth, nor that we have to relegate those occasions to the unknowable margins.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
You might find this helpful
http://www.oxonianreview.org/wp/how-to-be-gay-in-gaelic/
Elizabeth Lee wrote:
I’ve had a few deleted, too. Not blocked yet, but maybe if I keep it up… 😉
Elizabeth Lee wrote:
Back in the 70’s some guys kept a little black book, I suppose TT has a phone app for it instead.
Bill M wrote:
It’s amazingly easy a person to keep a folder on all/each contact(s) and add personal comments/reminders (even photos) concerning each contact.
Reading through this, what is obvious to me is the psychopathic characteristics of TT. Another commenter here posted up a link to an article about psychopaths. It noted that the most common career choice for known psychopaths is CEO. TT was the head of a large corporation masquerading as a church.
Something the article made clear was that in a study there was a counseling program created to treat psychopaths whom were coming out from prison. 60 percent of those who received no treatment went back into prison on new charges. 80 percent of those that received treatment went back into jail. There is no counseling cure for people with these characteristics. TT does not need counseling. It would likely only cause him to become more shrewd with his manipulations. Jesus nowhere suggests counseling for wolves coming into the Church for prey. Instead he tells us to beware of them and keep our distance. Sound the alarm. TT knows the Word of God and uses that knowledge to feed upon sheep. If that is not true blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, I do not know what is. Hence his teachings on Cheap Grace. I believe TT’s true sin is not forgivable, nor is the sin of any other true psychopath at the helm of any “Christian” organization. Time for the sheep to open their eyes and see a harsh, but true reality.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
There’s also a Facebook page called Tullian Tchividjian Can Still Be My Pastor. Reminds me of Tiger Beat.
Elizabeth Lee wrote:
Brad wrote a guest post at Julie Anne’s blog the other day about Tullian. It’s a time line of all this stuff.
Brad/Julie Anne used a color-coded system to differentiate from among all Tullian’s vicims to make it easier for readers to follow.
You know you have a serious sexual self control/ clergy sexual abuse problem when those covering your story have to come up with color codes, diagrams, and charts so the rest of us can keep it all straight.
(And even then, I still find it a little confusing and overwhelming.)
Daisy wrote:
Overwhelming amount of detail for me, too, @Daisy!
I think in terms of visuals, but it takes a number of steps to get from data points to infographics. So … that particular timeline in that post took over three months of on-again, off-again work, and conversations with Julie Anne, for me to complete. (I do survivor blogging stuff in my spare time, such as it is.)
Then, I could see it was getting so complicated that I needed a way to visually track things. The color-coding helped me start looking at the interweaving of the various women in Tullian Tchividjian’s life. That was around the time that the story of “Lisa” was published, so I added details about her experiences to the mix.
And then, I finished the timeline and analysis, and used the color coding to start working on a bar chart of the timeline events and periods (there’s been a most intriguing twist on that particular resource – more details on that when the time is right). But that’s a sort of two-dimensional visual version on paper of what a message folder system might be on email or a phone …
Stacking the bars across a timeline makes it visually very apparent that Mr Tchividjian was dealing with various kinds of relational issues with *at least* five women during at least a four-month period from the very end of 2016 through March 2016.
Today, I’ll be working on other layers in the eventual bar chart. I believe these additional elements will prove crucial to being able to frame the situation in a larger context, for a more accurate interpretation.
So, for what it’s worth, there’s some behind-the-scenes snapshots on how that timeline post developed.
https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2016/11/22/tullian-tchividjian-partial-timeline-of-alleged-clergy-sexual-abuse-and-spiritual-abuse/
Elizabeth Lee wrote:
The more that the personal accounts and other details emerge, and these snapshots get stacked up against one another to create an album of activities, the more that questions like yours hopefully get raised.
And perhaps these kinds of questions will help people who had been staunch defenders of Mr Tchividjian realize he was not who they thought he was.
Seems it’s already starting to happen. There have been several apologies posted on Twitter and blogs in the past few days …
brad/futuristguy wrote:
Sounds like he was juggling a five-woman harem while grooming replacements.
I’ve heard of “living a double life” with wife and mistress on the side keeping each ignorant of the other, but FIVE AT ONCE? Quintuple Life?
“Bait a trap with p***y and you’ll catch a Preacher every time.”
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
HUG, please check out the original post at Spiritual Sounding Board — I did **NOT** state there, or in my comments above, that Tullian Tchividjian allegedly had five grooming/sexual relationships going simultaneously. I said in the comment above, “relational issues.” You’ve made it say something I did not, and I am putting this statement in bold so hopefully other readers will see that as a faulty conclusion based on current accounts.
And I apologize for not spelling out earlier here what I hope was clear at the Spiritual Sounding Board timeline post. I could probably have prevented your false conclusion.
During that period, Mr Tchividjian apparently was *at least* …
(1) dealing with divorce issues with his wife. (He filed for divorce August 22, 2015. The divorce was finalized March 2, 2016.)
(2) dealing with ramifications of the still-undisclosed sexual misconduct with “Woman #1” from May-July 2014. (That was revealed publicly March 2016.)
(3) dealing with ramifications of the already disclosed sexual misconduct with “Woman #2” from April-June 2015.
(4) apparently grooming “Woman #3″/Lisa emotional and sexually. (He was relating with her approximately June 2015-March 2016).
(5) connecting with Stacie Phillips, starting at least in the summer of 2015. (He married her August 26, 2016.)
In addition to all those relationship issues, he had a significant level of ministry platform issues going on. That period of late 2015 through March 2016 also includes (1) his resignation from Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church, due to his being asked about sexual misconduct. (2) Being hired by Willow Creek Presbyterian Church [PCA; no connection to Willow Creek Community Church in Illinois]. (3) Being fired by Willow Creek Presbyterian Church after the 2014 sexual misconduct was revealed (it had been covered up since July). And (4) his last two books were published in January 2015.
When I hear about men like TT, I often wonder if they have a sexual addiction. Some even call it a disease. I don’t think it is a disease. Men like him just can’t get it together. These so called “Men of Gawd” that hold whatever position in the church just don’t get it. You can’t keep having affairs, then claim God’s forgiveness and talk about his grace, then keep on doing what you have been doing time and time again. Sooner or later it will catch up with you. It won’t be pretty when these men come to their reckoning.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
Clarification: Covered up since July 2014 = about 19 months before his secret sexual misconduct was finally uncovered.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
Nate’s post certainly gave me the impression that multiple women were being groomed in a manner similar to Lisa but I doubt TT was having an affair simultaneously with five women, so I’m not sure what you are saying. From the text posted from Nate’s site:
“Other Women”
“This was hardly an isolated incident, Lisa was personally aware of at least 10 other women with whom Tchividjian had a similar dynamic.”
I was the first here that used the “harem” hyperbole, so sorry for the confusion, is it simply you are not personally making the same contention above or do you believe the “10 other women” allegation is suspect?
Bill M wrote:
Given the realities of grooming that go with “serial seductions,” it may well emerge that there could be multiple women who were at various stages of anywhere from initial interest to emotional connection to sexual involvement to aftermath consequences.
I just wanted to clarify that I was *not* saying he was engaged in five sexual relationships simultaneously. That’s what HUG’s comment seemed to say, but it’s not what current evidence shows, as far as I’ve been able to compile details.
This is part of an ongoing concern I have as a research/resource writer that things can quickly get restated as if they are facts before there’s sufficient evidence … and then we have to backtrack or retract etc.
Sorry if my responses were confusing — hope this helps clarify.
Friend wrote:
Or Tiger Woods.
When I first began reading of the problem with narcissistic pastors Tullian was one of the first suspects that I read about. He became pastor of a large church and many people soon left due to his changes or the way he went about them. When a vote was called in 2009 by members complaining Tchividjian showed “a complete lack of respect”, one third voted for his ouster. TT stayed and most of those voting against him appeared to leave.
It mystified me when it happened in a church I attended, how can a single pastor can come in, mandate many changes that drive off half the people, and suffer no apparent doubt or grief. It was only when I discovered that NPD’s have no compassion that the light went on. When there are so many torn relationships due to their “leadership”, they can continue on because they are incapable of feeling.
At the time I thought I may have been unfairly projecting from personal experience with a possible NPD, later evidence has removed much of my initial doubt.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
I really appreciate this comment. I read it aloud to my family… Something I wouldn’t normally do with comments!
@ Nick Bulbeck:
thanks for that, NICK
Former CLCer wrote:
Thank you kind friend, Former CLCer.
My mission continues as I search for the Christian blind woman who is homeless with her service dog and she used to sing in the mega choir.
Since I couldn’t find her, I went and took bags of various items — canned goods, pasta, good face cleanser and lotion, Vitamin E oil, Arnica bruise healing cream — to an elderly Russian woman who lives in senior housing. Her only child — her son — was killed in their homeland more than 20 years ago. She goes through bouts of depression, understandably.
She had a foot surgery that went wrong and she can’t go to her Zumba class at the YMCA until it heals. She loves Zumba and she’s in her 80’s. I gave her some extra weights I had, a kettlebell (1 weight with a handle that can be swung), and some exercise DVDs.
She fed me Russian soup and Brandy (which I watered down and I only had a wee amount).
I gave her some extra Christmas decorations I had, including a wreath for her front door and Christmas lights for her apartment.
She cried.
There’s always someone in life who needs connection, to feel of value, to show hospitality to others, to know that they are important.
It was as a good for my soul and my emotional state as it was for her’s.
Christiane wrote:
Awww. Now you make me tear up and blush.
You folks are so kind.
Thank you.
David Mansell – one of the Magnificent Seven of the House Church Movement which ushered in Restorationism, Dominionism, Shepherding Movement.
http://www.banner.org.uk/res/restuk3.html
@ Lowlandseer:
You mean one of the four horsemen?
Probably lol. They certainly did their best to usher in the end times.
I had hoped TT was one of the better guys. Those texts say otherwise, what a textbook example of grooming& manipulation. Colour me disgusted.
18 months after I forced my pastor to confess and resign and the church welcomed him back in with open arms and left me and my family to struggle alone he posts this on his Twitter profile and the song lyrics on his Face Book. TT reminds me so much of my abuser. It brings up all kinds of painful reminders. Where is the grace filled sorrow, humility? This type is grace from the church will disqualify them to the world.
My story:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OQDk7d87f8&feature=youtu.be
This is his Twitter description of himself… 12 months after his forced confession.
“I am redeemed restored, forgiven and free. I am an online entrepeneur, coach and real estate investor. I love to help leaders suck-less and lead more.”
This is his Facebook description of himself.
My Story:
If I told you my story
You would hear hope that wouldn’t let go
If I told you my story
You would hear love that never gave up
If I told you my story
You would hear life but it wasn’t mine
If I should speak then let it be
Of the grace that is greater than all my sin
Of when justice was served and where mercy wins
Of the kindness of Jesus that draws me in
To tell you my story is to tell of Him
If I told you my story
You would hear victory over the enemy
If told you my story
You would hear freedom that was won for me
If I told you my story
You would hear life overcome the grave
If I should speak then let it be
This is my story this is my song praising my Savior all the day long
Publishing: © 2015 Word Music, LLC, Weave Country (ASCAP) / Sony/ATV Music Publishing LLC, Open Hands Music (SESAC) (All rights on behalf of itself and Open Hands Music adm. by Sony/ATV Music Publishing LLC)
Writers: Mike Weaver / Jason Ingram
When I saw this I was left speechless. 18 months later after 4 years of exploitation. He is small scale TT, but he devastated a community as a pastor. Enough is enough.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Years ago, I attended an Assembly of God conference in my area to hear David Wilkerson speak (author of “The Cross and The Switchblade”). There were thousands of Pentecostals there, folks always looking for some miraculous touch of God – hoping that Wilkerson would deliver some that night. I’ll never forget what Wilkerson said to them in a word of rebuke and correction … “The glory of God is not in manifestation, but in a continual revelation of who Jesus is in your life.” Words of wisdom from a man who was not diminishing the fact that Jesus is still indeed capable of doing what He did while walking the earth, but that the greatest miracle of all is in having a personal relationship with the creator of all that is, who is Saviour and Lord to those who turn to Him in faith.
I am not religious, and I am a beer drinking, hunting, Packers-loving Midwestern guy. Found this site two years ago and interested in insights of the author. I follow many different sites from which I learn about many different perspectives. I have never contributed to the discussion section of this site, but I have to now because I am amazed at how, with our different world views, we tend to over-analyze motives and reasons for outcomes. My comment – The reason TT is acting the way he does is not because of “heteronormative patriarchy” (whatever the hell that is!!). In my world, he’s called “a player”. He likes to be the center of attention, particularly of young, attractive women, and if he can get sex out of it – all the better! He tends to date and have sex with multiple women (even if he is married). TT is the middle-aged guy hitting on young women in the bar on business trips, the manager at the fast-food restaurant hitting on the hamburger girl, or the guy at the neighborhood block party hitting on the young, attractive wife who’s husband is always traveling. Don’t wrap the guy in your own preconceived world view of male domination. TT is a player (Google for definition). TT just happens to have the job of pastor at one of your churches.
Bill M wrote:
Oh, they ARE capable of feeling.
One Thing.
The Gloating of “I. WIN.”
Harley wrote:
As James Johnson said above, he’s a Player.
A Player who uses God and Jesus and Under The Blood for (Cosmic-level) cover in The Game.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Game:_Penetrating_the_Secret_Society_of_Pickup_Artists
brad/futuristguy wrote:
OK. I misunderstood.
So he was a Serial Player instead of Multiple/Mass/Spree.
Is there timeline evidence that he may have engaged in multiple simultaneous grooming, either “Keeping My Options Open” or as Targets of Opportunity?
Friend wrote:
Any of them squealing “I WANT TO HAVE HIS CHILD!!!!!!”?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Thanks, HUG.
For now, the current timeline at SSB seems clear enough evidence of at least “serial player.” As survivor stories continue to emerge, our conclusions may well need to be adjusted about multi-layers of grooming/involvement …
https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2016/11/22/tullian-tchividjian-partial-timeline-of-alleged-clergy-sexual-abuse-and-spiritual-abuse/
Velour–now you and the Russian lady–THAT was church!
I’m always dismayed when I post about “tail gate church” or “church at the wagon”, etc, that people leap to the conclusion I mean “house church”, which is really same old same old church without the overhead of a building.
No, real church IMHO takes place WHENEVER and WHEREVER God’s children meet, serve each other, worship Him, or fellowship in His Name.
I’ve been schooled and drilled (thanks Pastor Wade for some of it!) in how Jesus fulfills the types and shadows pointing to Messiah in the OT. In the same way, I believe much of the organized church is simply types and shadows there to remind us of the real deal.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I think these types are always serial players. They just go through phases they up their game depending on venue and circumstances. He “played” Coral Ridge. It’s what they do.
@ James Johnson:
I have to agree with this. I traveled a lot in my career and know exactly what you are talking about. Both genders can be like this and it is not exclusive of race, either.
The difference is using Jesus as your beard for credibility.
Lowlandseer wrote:
Well, the weirdest thing.
When I wrote up that story, I pondered adding a paragraph about how it might be possible to miss the point. I didn’t in the end, because it was long enough already, but the two possibilities I had were:
Well, that’s not a valid instance of healing because the “word from God” contained a technical inaccuracy in its depiction of the atonement, etc etc etc
and
Well, that’s not a valid instance of healing because here’s a website proving David Mansell is a heretic etc etc etc
One down, one to go..!
Lydia wrote:
Lydia, Just my point. All of this hand-wringing about TT not being “repentant, etc”- Does anyone really think he cares? He is laughing at you people! He is the ultimate con who has found out that “Jesus” is one of the easiest gigs in which you can use people and manipulate women to obtain sex. He is so typical (though in your social circles, you probably have not experienced this kind of guy). In my world, he is very common – middle-age guy who spends a lot of time at gym and in tanning bed. Testosterone replacement therapy and growth-hormone treatments. Six-month Botox treatments, professional teeth-whitening, and for some, plastic surgery. Abercrombie and Fitch for clothes instead of Brooks Brothers. Look good on the outside. Uses the proper terminology to manipulate women in his sphere (grooming – nice term, we call it lying over a period of time to ultimately get sex from someone). In your world, he talks about “brokenness, healing and grace” – amazing that those lines work in your circles. In mine, guys use money, trips to the Virgin Islands, and the hint of potential marriage and unlimited financial security. And you are right Lydia, women can use similar techniques. Reading this site over time, I have to say that I don’t believe in God, but I am afraid of Him. If all this is true, TT should also be afraid.
@ James Johnson:
Hi James,
Welcome to TWW. We’re quite the eclectic bunch here. I’m a Packer fan too.
And yeah, Tchividjian is definitely a serial ‘playah’.
Here’s some lyric lines as only Stevie Nicks can sing em’:
…Thunder only happens when it’s raining
Players only love you when they’re playing
Say… Women… they will come and they will go
When the rain washes you clean… you’ll know, you’ll know…
James Johnson wrote:
There’s a guy who is very similar to Tullian, though I think he’s younger.
There are several posts about this guy and his victims. This is only one:
Celebrity Preacher Clayton Jennings: Sex, Alcohol, and the Morning After Pill
http://polemicsreport.com/2016/11/03/celebrity-preacher-clayton-jennings-sex-alcohol-and-the-morning-after-pill/
James Johnson wrote:
Thanks for the refreshing comments. Sure, con artists are everywhere, and people can be fooled in any environment. But I have one set of expectations if I go into, say, a singles bar: certain intentions and activities will be there. In church, though, I have different expectations. Hitting on me would not be the norm. People don’t go to church to blow off steam and maybe find a casual fling. To take it a step further, some congregations deliberately train people (especially women and girls) to be vulnerable and submissive at church. So am I just stating the obvious, or missing your point?
We obviously don’t have the luxury of letting our guard down at church. But shouldn’t we have the right? Shouldn’t churches strive to provide basic safety, especially if they claim to do so?
@ brad/futuristguy:
“As survivor stories continue to emerge” as in Bill Cosby and Got Hard?
Brad, thank you for making sure your words are understood clearly. That is very important.
I have been in touch with the key people in this story for a year and a half and have kept most of it quiet because victims have not been ready to come forward. Their safety and protection comes first, period. At least one victim is ready to share her experience, and we are working on that now. I also want to make sure I have enough concrete evidence to show beyond a reasonable doubt that these stories are not just stories, but verified personal accounts.
It’s important to note that Nate’s recent stories have to do with sexual/emotional grooming. This story is much more than his grooming and sexual relationships outside of marriage. Brad and I are working on exposing more.
linda wrote:
Amen, Linda.
Beautifully stated.
Friend, I very much appreciate your comments, but to be forward, if you ” don’t have the luxury of letting your guard down” at church, why do you go? Why would you ever go to a place ( you call them “Fellowships” ) where you are taught to peel off all of the normal defense mechanisms that a woman would carry with her into a lowly place such as a bar ? Wouldn’t your church require a greater level of discernment than a bar ? (Since it is so much more important). Respecting your worldview, why would a woman ever chose to become part of such an assembly ? (assuming your not in Saudia Arabia and must go there at the point of a sword). I would love to have one of my “unregenerate” women friends write a post on how to chose a church – based on common-sense female bar wisdom and defense perspective verses a “yes man” church mentality that ends you up in a horrible evening in a cheap motel. Friend, not to discount your insights, but why does a wise women ever agree to turn off her “Spider-Sense”?
@ James Johnson:
I’m liking you & your comments a lot.
James Johnson wrote:
I let my guard down and discounted my own discernment because I was supposed to be in a safe place with a safe person to be real with expecting spiritual strengthening at the weakest point of my life. I probably in hindsight would have been safer in a bar! I would have at least had my guard up. My pastor was a Masters seminary graduate in bible and biblical counseling. Founder of our city division of The Gospel Coalitian. I will never trust a church leader, Christian counselor ever again. It is the perfect profession for weak willed exploiters. I warn all to be careful. Protect yourself. Do not be vulnerable in these institutions that was my big mistake.
James Johnson wrote:
I now go to a fairly healthy church, but I’m always a bit on guard because of abusive experiences at other churches–and because no church is perfect. If I don’t like something, I pipe up. When I am heard, I know that others are heard too. However, I would not ever expect my church to tolerate a “player” on clergy or staff. If a “player” hove into sight and bagged a couple of girls, boys, or women, I would expect the person to be exposed, removed, and prosecuted. Unlike many churches, mine has actual safeguards against sexual predators (although safeguards always have limitations).
Why does a wise woman ever agree to turn off her “Spider-Sense”? I don’t assume that everyone at church is an adult, and wisdom comes gradually. And alas, many women and young people in American churches have been raised in Christian isolation. In some circles a “wise woman” is one who has long hair, no makeup, and a wardrobe of loose hand-me-down denim shrouds. Or a “wise woman” is one who unquestioningly obeys the husband chosen for her by her father. A compassionate church protects its members instead of hiring “players” to stand onstage and deliver the Sunday “message” and then go hunting in the lamb fold.
Why go to church if you can’t let your guard down? Because I have a right to. Because God likes to have a house. Because it is good to worship together. Because, in my small way, I can prevent church from turning into a bar.
I will never trust again. There are 10 churches 10 miles from my house that I am now aware of that are “baptist” like with pastors who exploited women in their congratulations. They are now starting to be re-instated as pastors once enough time has passed for most people who are new to the area to not now. This is what happened to me and my family. I guess I was #3 at our last church: how I wished someone would have been brave enough to tell us……. Never again. Friend wrote:
Kim wrote:
You absolutely made the right decision.
James Johnson wrote:
There is an atheist woman who used to do a relationship advice podcast (and maybe still does) and who wrote a book along these lines.
She blogs and podcasts for black people, but I (as a partially white person) relate to most of her advice.
I mean, you don’t have to be a black person on an atheist to see she makes some very good points.
In her book, she tells single women to be cautious about meeting men in churches to date.
The title of her book is
THE BLACK CHURCH-WHERE WOMEN PRAY AND MEN PREY
http://www.womenpraymenprey.com/
Daisy, and to all the women on this site – speaking from what you call a “worldly perspective”. There are good and bad people out there – your boss, co-worker and neighbor. There are people who’s sole goal is to use you – others who really care about you. Let me give you hope – but not from where you think. In my world, Neanderthal, troglodyte men love their women. We work extra shifts and holidays to provide for them. We constantly and without complaint move furniture because “this layout doesn’t look right”. We drive 210 miles to the nearest Coach store to buy her the perfect handbag for her birthday. And on those few days when we don’t have to be out of the house by 5:45am, we are able to make her the perfect cup of tea and serve it to her in bed (use two tea bags and real cream) to show our love. And at the weekly bonfire where everyone brings their awful, homemade wine, we are so proud to be with our women and to be at their beck and call. I know many of you look down upon us “deplorables” (OMG – yes, we are Trump voters), but we love and respect our women because they are strong. And yes, they love us because we are strong, uncompromising men. Don’t expect anything less from the men who are in your churches
James Johnson wrote:
I agree, it’s the church that uses sanctimonious phoniness to provide him the greatest platform on earth to practice what he does.
@ James Johnson:
I’m not sure what my religious beliefs are right now. I was a Christian for a long time but have been having doubts about the faith the last few years.
No, I don’t hate Trump voters. I didn’t care for either major (D or R) choice in the last election, but I don’t get angry at people over whomever they did vote for. 🙂
Daisy wrote:
Birds of a feather. We used to call guys like this “cads.” Have they always been this common in church? Or is this a more contemporary thing?
James Johnson wrote:
You might actually be able to.
Contact Deb and/or Dee under the “Contacting Us” menu bar and they might take you up on that offer.
Bravo James Johnson.
Does anybody know why most pastors originally went to youth group, or church, or church camp, their very first time? I was a PK (preachers kid), and through my dad and husband, I know a lot of pastors. I have never found one who didn’t have the same original motive. It starts with p and ends in y. How many of them “found their calling” in the summer when they were 19? Isn’t that the peak of a young man’s sex drive?
Want a real life example? Go read the biography of James Robison, the great televangelist, the “next Billy Graham”. He admits that he went to church so that he could chase after the cute girls. He later hired Robert Morris of Gateway Church to join him on evangelistic tours that booked high school groups and youth rallies. Thousands of hot young impressionable and vulnerable girls. Robert Morris admitted that he was very immoral, even after being married at age 19, as he seduced the girls with ‘daddy issues’ right after preaching a revival. And now, both Morris & Robison are multi-millionaires with luxury homes, TV shows, books, speaking gigs, travel the world first class, they have fans, and laugh all the way to the bank.
We need to stop being so naive. In many ways, going to church is more dangerous than going to a bar. The creeps in a bar are easier to spot. The creeps in church have a more convincing act. The creeps still are only after one thing.
siteseer wrote:
I don’t know. Maybe something somewhere changed a long the way, because when I was a kid and teen and even in my 20s, my parents (both Christian) very strongly believed that when you are single and want marriage, that your best bet to land a classy, upstanding partner was a local church.
My parents really frowned on bars – but both my siblings were bar hoppers, much to my parents disappointment.
I see so many stories of wife abusers and deviants who are common in churches now (and churches support these yea-hoos), I now wonder if meeting single men in bars would be safer by comparison.
James Johnson wrote:
http://tumblr.tastefullyoffensive.com/post/153450563046/via-armiesofants
Sorry, couldn’t resist 😀
siteseer wrote:
LOL . In my world, Aaron Rodgers would need to be pictured on the bag !!! I bought my love a Python skin handbag. She loves it !!!
siteseer wrote:
As celebrity worship has spread to some churches, visible caddishness has grown more acceptable; it takes far more than a whiff of scandal to end a philanderer’s time in the pulpit. TWW exposes a lot of caddish folks. If people have been harmed, they have every reason to stay away.
However, there are good and healthy churches. They deserve the support of people who choose to worship there. It would not be right to blame church A for the cad in church B.
It has become more dangerous to go to church. I have worked at a hospital for over 25 years with good looking successful doctors and have never had to deal with what I dealt with by my pastor. Always professional at the hospital. I never discussed my personal business with male coworkers, etc. My mistake was trusting my pastor to have something more than other men spiritually because he was paid to preach the truth, he spoke about the truth, he had a million bible and counseling degrees and above all the bible gives qualifications for this position that the church leaders teach, preach and claim to possess. What an amazing satanic trap for believing people. Never again for me. We attend a church a little now but I avoid the door where any of the pastors stand. It is the church itself that makes it unsafe. TWW shouldn’t even have to blog if the church followed the bible. Well never again for this lady! Jessica wrote:
Kim wrote:
My own experience, as a patient, is very different from yours. Most doctors are ethical, but a few do proposition and grope patients. Likewise, most doctors have good clinical skills, but some make medical errors that put patients’ lives at risk.
On the other hand, I’m still alive because of physicians. So I go to the doctor with my guard up, and always try to have a family member in the exam room in addition to any official chaperone.
To get back on topic: it’s a good thing that church is completely optional.
There are laws to prosecute doctors for unethical practice or malpractice. Pastors…..they just cry and play the grace card and all is well. Very dangerous. Very little to discourage pastoral malpractice. Friend wrote:
Kim wrote:
If a medical error causes a patient to undergo emergency surgery that causes further damage, nothing can make that un-happen.
Premature hospital discharge after surgery, leading to readmission with complications, falls into a gray area. Exhausted patients do not always have the time, energy, and money to pursue legal remedies. They might be able to switch doctors, but there might not be another hospital available to them.
The law is different in different settings: doctors in military hospitals can’t be sued. Our ill and wounded troops, and their dependents, do not have the luxury of taking doctors to court.
In church, the burden falls unfairly on the abused lay person. In medicine, the burden falls unfairly on the damaged patient. Neither setting offers guaranteed protection or reliable recourse.
Either way someone gets hurt. My job is to coordinate care from the hospital to home for severely sick cancer patients at a leading Cancer Hospital and I can tell you I sit with some of the top oncologist and practitioners and researchers and we take our jobs seriously and ethically. We are human, a mistake can happen but I can tell you through 25 years of experience as a healthcare professional, we don’t purposely use or exploit patients in our care. That would be the extreme exception. Pastors who abuse are common place. There is a very big difference with pastors who sexually, emotionally or psychologically groom and hurt people for their own pleasure. There is also legal recourse to discourage malpractice…..I know because we medical professionals pay out the nose. Pastors don’t have to worry about a “mistake”, they can just “fail in grace.” Laws are there to at least deter the few unethical practitioners. Friend wrote:
Kim wrote:
Thank you for doing such noble and important work. Many people owe their lives to you and your colleagues, and I am sure that you have comforted those who could not be saved despite your best efforts.
Thank you. We do what we can and try to be sensitive to those who depend on us to emotionally support them during some of their darkes days. I have been a family member of someone in hospice, I am personally a cancer survivor and I work as a professional. I am able to see it from many angles. My mistake was thinking that a pastor would have the same ethical restraint and love of God to help me. A big disappointment. During my darkest days my pastor chose to exploit me and hurt me. But, not illegal. The church supported him once I got strong enough to stop it and force him to quit and confess. Church is the least safe place to be vulnerable when you are hurting. Just to a bar….otherwise go to a licensed counselor. Chances of getting help are much higher! Friend wrote:
James Johnson wrote:
I agree with Headless Unicorn Guy. I too would like to see such a post. Just plain old fashioned horse sense, unclouded by “theo-babble”, a plethora of worn out Jesus jukes, and christianese cliches.
Max wrote:
I’d phrase it more strongly than this. To borrow what Paul wrote to Colossi:
… IOW the greatest miracle is Christ in us, so that when people meet us, they meet him. So (and we’re probably saying the same thing here) it’s not simply that in the privacy of my prayer life and in the quietness of my heart (ill noises) I have a subjective relationship with him. It’s that this “relationship”, which in itself could be neither proved nor disproved, has consequences – especially when I come together with other believers – that are tangible and undeniable to outsiders. Moreover, those consequences aren’t just a set of good habits I try to stick to but that, really, anybody could stick to. Rather, our relationship with the creator shows in the fact that we can do things we could not possibly do without him.
In the context of this thread: anybody could stand up for victims of child abuse, by taking them seriously, say, or by trying to give them a voice. And anybody could try to put together some form of recovery process that might, perhaps, over the years, help to ease the effects of what was done to them. It would take something out of the ordinary, however, to heal them, so that from a certain point on, they cease to be hurt and traumatised and regain all the abilities they lost through the abuse.
I think that’s why the idea of the healing process is so popular in Christianity; it can be very tender and compassionate, and we don’t actually need God to help us do it. If I tell an abuse victim that they can’t be healed, then nobody can be disappointed when God doesn’t heal them. I’m not going to insult the intelligence of the Wartburg Community by pretending any of us is not familiar with the ongoing difficulty of unanswered prayer. It means that when Jesus taught us that we should always pray and never give up, he was teaching us to embark on something that is inevitably hard, and fraught with setbacks and disappointments. He didn’t say “no pain, no gain” in so many words; probably because it doesn’t rhyme in Aramaic. But it’s true.
James Johnson wrote:
I want to say that ‘secular’ men use brokenness/vulnerability as well, not just money and security. I don’t think Tullian is so different, in fact a number of the comments from women he was talking to rang true and they had nothing to do with religion.
James Johnson wrote:
“The best way to find out if you can trust somebody is to trust them. Ernest Hemingway”
We are human and want connection. Sometimes, you take a risk and open up to someone and it’s the wrong choice.
@ Lea:
OLD saying: ‘fool me once, shame on you;
fool me twice, shame on me’
apply this to the mess in the Church and you find plenty of ‘pastors’ willing to be ‘fooled twice’ by harboring known predators among their flock
of COURSE, these pastors are responsible for what then happens …. how could they not be?
They can’t say ‘I didn’t know ….’, can they?
And if they realize abuse IS occurring and they look away, having knowingly planted the predator already, then these pastors are as guilty as the predator of the harm wrought as a result
Just posted at Spiritual Sounding Board — Parts 1 and 2 of “Survivor of Tullian Tchividjian’s Alleged Clergy Sexual Abuse Goes Public with Her Story.”
This is an important, well-documented narrative from Rachel (her real name), with added background and links, but no excuses or minimizing her part in destructive consequences. Rachel states her reasons for going public with her story:
“Before I begin sharing my story, I want you, the reader, to understand my heart in coming forward with it. I have not made the choice to do so easily or without prayer and guidance over many months. I do not hate Tullian or wish to merely embarrass him or monstrify him to you. I do not seek revenge or my own vindication, to be heralded as a victim or excused for my sin.
“The reason I am choosing to be open and very vulnerable with you, is to highlight an example of how an abuse system was born and flourished inside the ranks of reformed evangelicalism. This story is a very public example of pastoral sexual abuse – something unfortunately prevalent in the church. It is also a case study in how our ways of doing church often promote someone with a narcissistic personality and cocoon him in a position that only feeds his pathology.
“The issues I hope to highlight are much bigger than Tullian Tchividjian, his victims, or one sector of the church. The details, though ugly, do matter so that you can piece together the true picture. That has been difficult because the internet is Tullian’s primary platform, and survivors usually have none. Much media attention has been given to this story, but Tullian’s internet spin can be analyzed alongside details of his covert activities during the same seasons he spoke publicly about his repentance. That’s why I’m being as specific as possible … so you can see and decide for yourself.”
Parts 1 and 2 share the unfolding history of her experiences. Two more posts in the series will be published later this week, with her process of repentance and recovery, and her thoughts of hope, encouragement, and challenge for various people swept up in clergy sexual abuse and/or spiritual abuse.
https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2016/11/29/survivor-of-tullian-tchividjians-alleged-clergy-sexual-abuse-goes-public-with-her-story-part-1/
This is classic behavior of Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Incredibly sad…
Part #3 in the series on Rachel’s story has been posted at Spiritual Sounding Board. In this post, Rachel shares “My Process of Repentance and Recovery (Spring 2015 Onward) and My Message for Those Drawn Into Clergy Sexual Misconduct: There is Help and Hope for Us!”
https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2016/11/29/survivor-of-tullian-tchividjians-alleged-clergy-sexual-abuse-goes-public-with-her-story-part-3/
** BREAKING NEWS ** The following notice from Willow Creek Church was posted at approximately 11:30 PM (Eastern Time) Thursday, December 1st, on Warren Throckmorton’s blog:
Statement: Former Church Says Tullian Tchividjian Should Not Be in Ministry
We are deeply grieved by these latest allegations, and have profound gratitude for the courageous individuals who shared them, as well as those who worked tirelessly to chronicle their stories. I read their accounts multiple times through tears. My prayer is that they will receive the necessary care to move forward, and toward that end we continue to offer earnest prayers and full support.
We would also like to state in the clearest possible terms that we do not believe that Mr. Tchividjian should be in any form of public or vocational ministry. Rather, inasmuch as he is truly repentant and in accordance with his membership vows, we would urge him to immediately return to his church of membership, submit to its leadership, and pursue healing and renewal through repentance in the context of his local church to the glory of God and for the good of the broader Church and her witness to the world.
On behalf of the Session of Willow Creek Church,
Kevin Labby, Senior Pastor
Willow Creek Church – Winter Springs, FL
Willow Creek Church employed Tullian Tchividjian from August 2015 until March 2016. Mr. Tchividjian was fired when a second incident of his sexual misconduct while a pastor came to light that he had failed to disclose since May 2014, except to at least three men who kept his sin private: Steve Brown, and two men who were elders at Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church where Mr. Tchividjian had previously been Senior Pastor.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2016/12/01/statement-former-church-says-tullian-tchividjian-not-ministry/
** RACHEL’S OPEN LETTERS + EDITORS’ PRACTICAL SUGGESTIONS FOR MINISTRY **
Rachel concludes with Part #4 in the Spiritual Sounding Board series with her story. It includes her open letters to Tullian Tchividjian, and to those who have been promoting/protecting his platform.
This post also includes practical suggestions for working with the range of different kinds of individuals who have been harmed in this situation – survivors who are trying to piece together their understanding of what happened to them, those who feel betrayed/lied to dealing with “cognitive and emotional dissonance,” and those seeking justice and restoration.
A follow-up post is expected soon, due to the breaking news of a statement from Tullian Tchividjian’s former ministry employers at Willow Creek Presbyterian Church.
https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2016/11/27/survivor-of-tullian-tchividjians-alleged-clergy-sexual-abuse-goes-public-with-her-story-part-4/