John Piper – Model of “Functional Authority?” – Guest Post by Todd Wilhelm

"Your calling as pastors is to give the Bible functional authority in every tweet, blog, sermon, and bedside prayer."

John Piper #sgpc16

https://twitter.com/SovereignGrace/status/793887150995636224C.J. Mahaney and John Piper (Twitter – Screen Shot)

Sovereign Grace Churches held its Pastors Conference last week (October 25-27) in Indianapolis.  The speakers included:  John Piper, C.J. Mahaney, Jeff Purswell, Rick Gamache, Mickey Connolly, and Jared Mellinger.  Susan Hunt, director of women's ministries for the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA), did a breakout session for the women (who in all likelihood accompanied their husbands).

The following announcement was made earlier today via Twitter:

https://twitter.com/SovereignGrace/status/793887150995636224 I plan to listen to several of these messages and hope to share with our readers some of what was presented. 

Our friend in Dubai, Todd Wilhelm, took notice of this conference and the most renowned speaker – John Piper.  Todd has brilliantly put together some information that we believe calls into question whether Piper should be modeling 'functional authority".  We are grateful to Todd for allowing us to republish his thought-provoking post (see below).


John Piper – Model of "Functional Authority?"

Todd Wilhelm

“He had, in fact, got everything from the church and Sunday School, except, perhaps, any longing whatever for decency and kindness and reason.”

“Whatever difficulties he may have had with philosophy, Latin, and calculus, there had never been a time since the age of twelve when Eddie Fislinger had had difficulty in understanding what the Lord God Almighty wanted, and why, all through history, he had acted thus or thus.”    

-Sinclair Lewis, Elmer Gantry

screen-shot-2016-11-02-at-3-16-52-pmJohn Piper speaking at Sovereign Grace Churches Pastors Conference,10-25-2016

John Piper, not unlike the charlatan Elmer Gantry in Sinclair Lewis’ novel of the same name, has once again demonstrated a notable lack of any decency, kindness or reason. Piper chose to speak, along with C.J. Mahaney, at a Sovereign Grace event this week. C.J. Mahaney, a man credibly accused of blackmail and covering up the sexual abuse of children in Sovereign Grace Churches is a good friend of Piper’s. They  frequently speak at each other’s conferences, undoubtedly pocketing hefty honorarium fees in the process.  (Piper did not have to remove Mahaney from his Cross Conference in December, 2013, due to negative press, but I would guess Piper still paid Mahaney the honorarium fee, after all what are friends for?) Piper has yet to show any concern for the multiple victims of sexual abuse which occurred while his good friend, C.J. Mahaney was the Executive President of the Sovereign Grace denomination and senior pastor of Covenant Life Church.  Shortly after the sexual abuse scandal became public, Mahaney fled Covenant Life Church, temporarily seeking shelter with another supporter and fellow conference celeb, Mark Dever, at Dever’s Capitol Hill Baptist Church.  Mahaney, not one to be able to endure being out of the spotlight (nor the resulting cash) soon fled to Louisville to start a new church. Never one to start humbly, Mahaney took four other pastors with him – his son-in-law, his brother-in-law, and his trusty yes-men, Bob Kauflin and Jeff Purswell.  Initially they held services in a Christian school in Louisville, but when word of the sexual abuse scandal reached school officials Mahaney & company were given the boot. They quickly relocated to a hotel. Once Mahaney settled in he attempted to gain legitimacy by having all his famous friends stop by and preach. (Plus it gave a bit of a reprieve to the overworked pastoral staff of five.) Unfortunately, most of his friends were only too willing to lend their (good?) names to bolster the sagging reputation of Mahaney.

https://thouarttheman.org/2016/10/27/john-piper-model-functional-authority/It should be noted that all the men who spoke at Mahaney’s church were unable to honestly claim ignorance of the sexual abuse scandal and Mahaney’s cover-up. Brent Detwiler had emailed all of them  detailed information on the subject. Detwiler deserves most of the credit for bringing this scandal to the light of day. His was a largely thankless task resulting in him being excommunicated and having the corrupt leadership of Sovereign Grace do everything they could to tarnish his name. Below is a partial copy of the post Detwiler wrote after John Piper spoke at Mahaney’s run-away church plant.

It should be noted that all the men who spoke at Mahaney’s church were unable to honestly claim ignorance of the sexual abuse scandal and Mahaney’s cover-up. Brent Detwiler had emailed all of them  detailed information on the subject. Detwiler deserves most of the credit for bringing this scandal to the light of day. His was a largely thankless task resulting in him being excommunicated and having the corrupt leadership of Sovereign Grace do everything they could to tarnish his name. Below is a partial copy of the post Detwiler wrote after John Piper spoke at Mahaney’s run-away church plant.

https://thouarttheman.org/2016/10/27/john-piper-model-functional-authority/https://thouarttheman.org/2016/10/27/john-piper-model-functional-authority/

You may read Brent Detwiler’s entire post here. 

Below are the introductory comments of John Piper at Mahaney’s run-away church plant. Piper “chose” to speak there in February, 2013.

Click here to hear Piper's comments at SGC Louisville in Todd's post

Below are some clips I culled from Piper’s sermon at the Sovereign Grace Churches Pastors Conference. Piper spoke on October 25, 2016, the entire sermon can be found here.  If you listen to the five minute clip below you will find that Piper speaks about giving the Bible “functional authority” in the believer’s life. He says one must analyze every thought that comes into your mind prior to speaking or writing a word. He suggests asking yourself two questions about the thought in your mind prior to expressing it- is there a passage in Scripture that supports the thought, and is there a passage in Scripture that is contrary to the thought? Piper claims these are his two sentinels which he has been utilizing for forty years. He further states that if your thoughts cannot pass these two “sentinels” then you do not speak it or write it.

Go to Todd's post once again and listen to second audio clip

It is my contention that John Piper is ill-suited to be teaching anyone on this subject.  His words, both written and spoken, frequently do not seem to pass muster of the “functional authority” he claims he has been giving Scripture for forty years. Below are just a few examples I came up with after having conducted minimal research.

https://thouarttheman.org/2016/10/27/john-piper-model-functional-authority/screen-shot-2016-11-02-at-3-45-19-pmhttps://thouarttheman.org/2016/10/27/john-piper-model-functional-authority/

Here is the Camp on This link.

Tim Fall wrote an insightful article taking Piper to task for a tweet he wrote on the Ebola crisis. The complete article may be found here.

https://thouarttheman.org/2016/10/27/john-piper-model-functional-authority/Below is a tweet that Piper wrote in response to a deadly tornado that struck Oklahoma. I guess it passed his “functional authority” test.

Below is a tweet that Piper wrote in response to a deadly tornado that struck Oklahoma. I guess it passed his “functional authority” test.After the Piper tweet,  Zack Hunt wrote the blog below in response. It took me a few attempts to reload the page before I realized Hunt was brilliantly stating, through the use of a blank page, that there is no Christian defense of what Piper had tweeted. You can read the blog here.

https://thouarttheman.org/2016/10/27/john-piper-model-functional-authority/Here are a few comments that followed:

https://thouarttheman.org/2016/10/27/john-piper-model-functional-authority/

https://thouarttheman.org/2016/10/27/john-piper-model-functional-authority/Morgan Guyton wrote an article titled “How in charge is God when tragedy strikes?” He discussed Piper’s comments about the Oklahoma tornado and the bridge that collapsed in Minneapolis. In part he said:

“I knew it was coming: the Piper tweet, this time quoting Job in response to the Oklahoma tornado. As the dean of the neo-Calvinist movement, John Piper likes to push the envelope with his commentary on God’s role in natural disasters. He did it about a year ago when tornadoes hit the midwest. In 2007 after the Minneapolis bridge collapsed, he wrote that he and his daughter discussed how God must have done it so the people of Minneapolis would fear Him because our sin against God is “an outrage ten thousand times worse than the collapse of the 35W bridge.” Piper would say that he’s just being Biblical and that it shouldn’t be surprising that speaking Biblically would make people feel uncomfortable. So how do we talk about God’s role in tragedies?

Piper’s perspective on God’s role in disasters has two components: 1) Every event that happens is orchestrated by God for the purposes of His divine plan; 2) Violence within nature reflects God’s infinite anger over human sin, which is primarily understood in Anselmian terms as an abstract offense against His honor. In Piper’s post on the Minneapolis bridge collapse, he cites Luke 13:1-4 where Jesus uses tragedies in His day to issue a warning to his listeners to repent.”

You may read the entire article here.

https://morganguyton.wordpress.com/2013/05/22/how-in-charge-is-god-when-tragedy-strikes/

Then there is the comment Piper made about muscular women, documented by The Wartburg Watch:

2. Are muscular women are outside of God’s will?

I cannot believe that I am writing about this. A reader sent me an email alerting me to another bizarre comment by Piper. I was totally unconvinced that even Piper could say such a thing. I went directly to the source and there it was, in black and white.  Here is the entire PDF for the book called Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood. The following quote was written by Piper although a number of people contributed to the this document

“Consider what is lost when women attempt to assume a more masculine role by appearing physically muscular and aggressive. It is true that there is something sexually stimulating about a muscular, scantily clad young woman pumping iron in a health club.

2. Are muscular women are outside of God’s will?

I cannot believe that I am writing about this. A reader sent me an email alerting me to another bizarre comment by Piper. I was totally unconvinced that even Piper could say such a thing. I went directly to the source and there it was, in black and white.  Here is the entire PDF for the book called Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood. The following quote was written by Piper although a number of people contributed to the this document

The image of a masculine musculature may beget arousal in a man, but it does not beget several hours of moonlight walking with significant, caring conversation. The more women can arouse men by doing typically masculine things, the less they can count on receiving from men a sensitivity to typically feminine ”

I believe Piper’s response to the election question was cruel. I believe this discussion of muscular women to be bizarre. My husband spends a lot of time telling all of his patients to exercise. He is a cardiologist and it is well known that an exercise program strengthens the heart (Note to Piper: The heart is a muscular organ).

And then there is this classic; I find it hard to believe this passed Piper’s “sentinels.”

Finally, there is this event in Minneapolis. Piper, once again reminding me of Sinclair Lewis’s novel “Elmer Gantry,” seems to  be like Eddie Fislinger, that is,  he never “had had difficulty in understanding what the Lord God Almighty wanted, and why, all through history, he had acted thus or thus.”  

 I got to thinking, the next time severe weather is threatening your neighborhood, it might not be a good idea to be hanging around a Baptist church, seeing as all the sexual abuse they cover-up, and many of the abusers are pastors!

https://thouarttheman.org/2016/10/27/john-piper-model-functional-authority/https://thouarttheman.org/2016/10/27/john-piper-model-functional-authority/

Comments

John Piper – Model of “Functional Authority?” – Guest Post by Todd Wilhelm — 234 Comments


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    Thanks for the shout out, Todd.

    P.S. First.


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    Adding on to the evil fruit from John Piper’s sick theology and teachings, a godly woman (Natalie) was lied about before a huge crowd at Bethlehem Baptist church in Minnesota (Piper’s church before his retirement) for divorcing her abusive husband of many years. She faces excommunication and shunning by them.

    Julie Anne wrote about it over at Spiritual Sounding Board and included Natalie’s Facebook post about it.

    https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2016/11/01/1-12-years-later-bethlehem-baptist-church-doesnt-seem-to-get-domestic-violence-a-personal-story/

    Natalie also pointed out on another Facebook post that I read that she and other women were at Leslie Vernick’s (Christian therapist) conference. It was shocking how many of those Christian women have been excommunicated and shunned for leaving abusive husbands and Natalie’s story, sadly, is not uncommon.


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    About the Piper tornado tweet.
    I am reminded of this:

    God destroys home of anti-gay leader Tony Perkins in flood of ‘biblical proportions’
    https://www.rawstory.com/2016/08/god-destroys-home-of-anti-gay-leader-tony-perkins-in-flood-of-biblical-proportions/

    Snippets:

    While Perkins claimed that the flood brought him blessings from God, Christian leaders have often had much different reactions to other natural disasters.

    After Hurricane Katrina flooded New Orleans in 2005, televangelist Pat Robertson suggested that God was punishing the country for legalized abortion and Megachurch Pastor John Haggee declared that God had sent the floods to stop a Gay Pride parade.

    You can see the double standard. When certain Christians are affected by natural disasters, it’s just an act of nature – when Non-Christians are (or Christians with the ‘wrong’ theology), it’s the judgement of God.


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    Daisy wrote:

    When certain Christians are affected by natural disasters, it’s just an act of nature – when Non-Christians are (or Christians with the ‘wrong’ theology), it’s the judgement of God.

    Christians also claim the “persecution card”.


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    Velour wrote:

    It was shocking how many of those Christian women have been excommunicated and shunned for leaving abusive husbands and Natalie’s story, sadly, is not uncommon.

    so sad when a faith community cannot find it within themselves to offer safe harbor to an abused wife …. the word ‘sanctuary’ implies a place of safety where people may find shelter ….. during the dark ages and the middle ages, ‘sanctuary’ was an idea that was respected and no one who sought sanctuary would be denied that help

    so we have a much needed reformation in the Church and an abused woman comes for help and what happens? She is persecuted? She is driven out? She is labeled and mocked by the very place that was called into being by Our Lord for the purpose of healing our wounds and bring us into His warm Presence?

    The neo-Cals have forgotten what ‘church’ is all about, and they have turned into an institution that harbors evil and condemns and punishes the victims of evil ….. somehow they’ve got it all wrong, haven’t they?


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    Christiane wrote:

    so sad when a faith community cannot find it within themselves to offer safe harbor to an abused wife …. the word ‘sanctuary’ implies a place of safety where people may find shelter ….. during the dark ages and the middle ages, ‘sanctuary’ was an idea that was respected and no one who sought sanctuary would be denied that help
    so we have a much needed reformation in the Church and an abused woman comes for help and what happens? She is persecuted? She is driven out? She is labeled and mocked by the very place that was called into being by Our Lord for the purpose of healing our wounds and bring us into His warm Presence?
    The neo-Cals have forgotten what ‘church’ is all about, and they have turned into an institution that harbors evil and condemns and punishes the victims of evil ….. somehow they’ve got it all wrong, haven’t they?

    It appears that the new-cal churches are “sanctuaries” for misogynists with nor respect or concern for women and children.


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    Todd,

    Thanks for this post. I just have to wonder if Piper is even aware of how hard it is for people to believe that he even begins to practice what he preaches.

    This reminds me of the video of Piper in the Middle East that was so bad people were asking him to take it down!


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    I think we should have a caption contest for that photo at the top of Piper and Mahaney.

    What a pair of reprehensible men.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    It appears that the new-cal churches are “sanctuaries” for misogynists with nor respect or concern for women and children.

    And yet, sometimes it takes a woman or women to set things straight, like TWW Deebs, for example:

    http://bit.ly/2fjRFDd go to 12.00 and following, about women in leadership, women in high positions, women as whistle blowers, etc.


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    Bridget wrote:

    This reminds me of the video of Piper in the Middle East that was so bad people were asking him to take it down!

    Bridget,
    The original Piper video was taken down and replaced with one that was not as offensive. I had sent the original to a few key people in UCCD, asking them to consider what UAE officials would think if they saw it. Shortly thereafter the video was gone. I have an audio recording of the original video in which Piper said, “Behind me is the tallest city in the world… That tower and this city are coming down. this city is ripe with sin for the judgment of God unless radical Christians flood this city with the spectacular good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.”

    I am sure Piper meant “tallest building,” not “tallest city.” The video was filmed with the Burj Khalifa in the background and a call to prayer playing while he spoke. It was all for effect. The “radical Christians” was reminiscent of Platt’s deceptive ploy to pump book sales by holding a “simulacast” at a secret location in the Middle East where a Christian could lose his life for his beliefs. It was a cheap, deceptive trick; a lie. The broadcast originated in Dubai at a swanky hotel. My daughter attended. David Furman, senior pastor of Redeemer Church of Dubai (a UCCD church plant) hosted the event. Several Redeemer members were interviewed (including Furman) for a video played at the simulcast with their faces blacked out because of the “danger.” It was a total sham. There was no apology or confession of wrongdoing by either Platt, David Furman or Lifeway Publishers. Platt is now the head of the International Mission Board for the Southern Baptist Conference, Furman is a rising star among the neo-Cals. He just released a book and has been featured on 9Marx. ( https://9marks.org/interview/international-church-planting/ ) Furman’s wife, Gloria, has written several books and is a neo-Cal celeb in her own right.

    I did have the chance to speak with Mack Stiles about the Platt/Furman sham. He was quite embarrassed by it and had no explanation for it. Mack Stiles is a good friend of Mark Dever’s and was instrumental in bringing John Folmar to UCCD, where Stiles was an elder. Stiles then helped Furman plant Redeemer Church and has now moved to Louisville. He attends Third Avenue Baptist, a 9Marx church pastored by Greg Gilbert and Matt Smethurst, both former interns at Mark Dever’s Capitol Hill Baptist Church.

    Back to Piper’s offensive video, it points again to his lack of judgment when it comes to public speech. He continually demonstrates that the “functional authority” he blathered on about at the Sovereign Grace Pastors Conference is not practiced in his life. If the UAE officials would have seen the video I have no doubt Piper would have, at the least, had his visa revoked and never been allowed back in the UAE. He may have spent some time in prison. It is not difficult to view his statement as a radical Christian terrorist making a threat.


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    GMFS.

    Comment 1 of 2: the “authority” of something that can’t talk

    In the New Testament, the men who penned the Scriptures gave, and set an example in giving, functional authority to the Holy Spirit: the present, living God himself. Just imagine the following openings:

    Paul, a bond-servant of the Bible, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God…
    Paul and Timothy, bond-servants of the Bible, To all the saints in the Bible who are in Philippi, including the overseers and deacons…
    Paul, a bond-servant of the Bible and an apostle of scripture, for the faith of those chosen by the Bible and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness…
    While they were ministering to the Bible and fasting, the Bible said to them: “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them”…
    Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of scripture, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Saviour, the Bible…

    Of course you can’t physically see or hear the Holy Spirit in the easy, everyday sense. It’s just the kind of thing you have to turn, and become like a little child, to learn. That didn’t stop the early church, and it shouldn’t stop us.

    The problem with the Holy Spirit is that he can talk back. The Bible is much more convenient in that regard. With it, you can hold up a sock-puppet, and kid yourself that the words you speak through it take on God’s authority.


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    Comment 2 of 2: the scope of functional authority

    So, apparently:

    “Your calling as pastors is to give the Bible functional authority in every tweet, blog, sermon, and bedside prayer.”

    It’s a great shame some of these “pastors” can’t give God (or even the written words he gave us) a little more “functional authority” over the way they treat others.

    For some of them, it might stop them tweeting altogether.


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    A loose quote at around 40 seconds, Piper says “I think God is going to look at me and laugh” in relation to the theory of evolution. He then blathers on about Dawkins being there and God will make the universe shake. It is not really important to this point if one holds to the validity of the evidence that supports the theory of evolution, which is rather formidable in my opinion. It is that he really thinks that he will have a front row seat at the judgement seat of God. There is even a bit of a hint that God will get even for Piper.

    Here is the link https://youtu.be/HSMWvIoxyCI


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    I have no words for this one it has some very nice lines but listen to it, look at the pictures listen to who is reading it and think on the title The Calvinist by John Piper. It could be just my jaundiced ear but deep down I get the creeps from the entire thing. What you don’t hear is the Sermon on the Mount, or even reference to other Christian traditions just as rich in spirituality. There is such a thing as pride cloaked in humility, I know I struggle with it deep down. I am talking about the type of pride that blinds us to our own weaknesses not the pride that say someone has in their children doing well at a contest or in the service of soldiers police first responders or in the many brave people who share here and other places.

    https://youtu.be/1mERHFQmA58


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    brian wrote:

    It is that he really thinks that he will have a front row seat at the judgement seat of God. There is even a bit of a hint that God will get even for Piper.

    Here is the link https://youtu.be/HSMWvIoxyCI

    I look at this video and I see an example of a person who seems to be suffering from a loss of contact with reality. He does have a ‘wait til then (judgement) and they’ll see …. they’ll see’ which shows that he is experiencing some need for affirmation of his own point of view that was not forthcoming from those who saw things different:
    in short, he took personally as criticism what a rational theologian would recognize as the healthy diversity that exists regarding the mysteries of the beginnings of life in the world that is seen.

    He seems ‘needy’. For affirmation. And he seems hyper-sensitive to any view points that he percieves as withholding affirmation of himself as an esteemed bearer of ‘special knowledge’.

    Ego or poor self esteem? I would guess the latter.
    Hard to watch this video as it is more revealing than I’m sure Piper realizes.


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    It’s a great shame some of these “pastors” can’t give God (or even the written words he gave us) a little more “functional authority” over the way they treat others.

    For some of them, it might stop them tweeting altogether.

    Or at least they might tweet people better.


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    Piper is another clown I never heard of until reading this blog.
    So I’ll say it again. Men and women are equal. In every single way. I don’t care what the Bible says about this issue. The bill of rights and the Constitution confirm this. Our laws confirm this. ( At least in principle, I know there’s a lot of discrimination outside the church as well)
    There’s a lot of crud in the Bible we don’t do. We’ve gone beyond condoning the razing of our enemies cities and slaying of entire populations. (I’m not getting into a debate on any nations actions or policies, I’m saying that our society in general does not support such atrocities), slavery, the execution of bad kids and homosexuals.
    This is what Piper and his merry band focus on. They ignore all the good. No mercy, no understanding, no charity. Whatever you do to the least of my brothers that you do unto me. And the gospel stories show Jesus very much included women.
    600K+ followers? He should be called Pied Piper.


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    Jack wrote:

    This is what Piper and his merry band focus on. They ignore all the good. No mercy, no understanding, no charity.

    and yet over half a million ‘followers’ ….. half a million ….

    “The infernal Serpent; he it was, whose guile, stirred up with Envy and Revenge, deceived The Mother of Mankind.”
    (Milton, ‘Paradise Lost’)


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    @ Bridget:
    As I recall, Piper stood in front of the tallest building in the world and said, “These buildings are coming down.” What’s frightening is that he did not think through the implications of his words to those in the Middle East.

    Dee challenged Piper and gang to take down the video, and it came down pronto!

    Who else remembers this?


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    Oh, Deb.. I started watching CJ Mahaney preaching from the SGC Pastor’s conference and just couldn’t finish. Is it just me or does anyone else have trouble watching all the theatrics with his hands and breathy, choppy speaking where it sounds like he can’t get the word out. It takes away from any points he’s trying to make. I just can’t watch him and I’m sure I won’t do the audio, either. I don’t like saying negative things about my brothers and sisters but I imagine that I feel this way because it appears too much like it’s all about the sermon performance and less about his pastoral character to authenticate the message. Until he comes out publicly repenting of what everyone already knows happened, I will continue to have zero respect for this man!


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    @ Cindy Meyers

    C.J. Mahaney and John Piper are both hard to watch because their arm movements are so terribly distracting!

    I'm still angry about their Scream of the Damned remarks. How Christians can take these two seriously is beyond me.

    I expressed my sentiments regarding their heretical remarks almost seven years ago when hardly anyone was reading here.

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2010/02/12/the-scream-of-the-damned-and-the-last-straw/


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    Piper is so weird!!


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    Cindy Meyers wrote:

    Is it just me or does anyone else have trouble watching all the theatrics with his hands and breathy, choppy speaking where it sounds like he can’t get the word out.

    It’s not just you Cindy. I mentioned in a comment on my blog that I can only take this guy in small doses. It took me about 5 sessions to get through this gem. The same goes for Mahaney.


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    Jack wrote:

    We’ve gone beyond ..

    Don’t be too sure. Let the societal systems crumble, let pain and fear and hunger and disease spread, let some tyrant decide to scape goat one or more groups of people and then we will see if we what we have or have not gone beyond.


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    @ okrapod:

    correction: omit ‘if we’


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    Most of you know that I lived in Galveston, TX during Hurricane Ike 8 years ago. Never once did I hear that this was God’s judgment on our island. It was just nature. When you live on and island or on the coast and in an area where there are hurricanes, you can expect this to happen. We had hoped it never would. We were wrong. I lived in Galveston for 23 years. It was my home, where we lived, where my husband and I raised our children and where we worked. The community bonded together like never before. People helped out other constantly. Everyone lost something, but in their losses they gained strength to help out others. Ministers of all denominations came together for the better of the island. People that worked with my husband, that lived off the island, took time to help my family clean up our home. Honestly, I never thought God was trying to tell the people of the island to get their act together. The town has rebuilt and will again when another hurricane hits. Tragedy happens to all of us. This is life. We go thru both good times and bad times in our life. To constantly berate people like Piper and CJ do, is demeaning to those who have lived thru tragedies. I don’t wish tragedy on anyone. But I guarantee that if these so called “Men of Gawd” would personally go thru a tornado, would go thru a major hurricane, would have their homes flooded and lose everything, etc. they would sing a different tune. Who was there helping after the big tornadoes hit in Oklahoma? I can tell you. It was our own beloved Wade Burleson and the members of his church.


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    It’s a great shame some of these “pastors” can’t give God (or even the written words he gave us) a little more “functional authority” over the way they treat others.

    I think you should tweet this with functional authority!

    These men care more about words on a page than how they treat real living people. Even though the words on the page plainly tell them that everything they do is NOTHING if they don’t have love.


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    Jack wrote:

    I don’t care what the Bible says about this issue.

    This is honestly the best way to shut people like Piper up. Like when a salesman asks you ‘don’t you don’t want to save money?’ and you say ‘nope’.

    I don’t believe the bible says what they believe, but ultimately I think we know what is right and wrong, and should not let some man’s interpretation of the bible convince us that what we know in our hearts is wrong is ok.


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    Harley wrote:

    Who was there helping after the big tornadoes hit in Oklahoma? I can tell you. It was our own beloved Wade Burleson and the members of his church.

    This makes me smile. Good people in Enid OK, yes


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    okrapod wrote:

    Jack wrote:

    We’ve gone beyond ..

    Don’t be too sure. Let the societal systems crumble, let pain and fear and hunger and disease spread, let some tyrant decide to scape goat one or more groups of people and then we will see if we what we have or have not gone beyond.

    Exactly.

    The constant pitting of one group against the other, political correctness censoring and group think of today, scares me for our future. We are losing our ability to see individuals not groups.


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    @ Deb:
    “Scream of the damned” should have put an end to any Theological cred they had at all.

    It is scary how few pastors spoke out against it. I found 2 online back then! Yet many pastors praised it!


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    @ Todd Wilhelm:
    The first Piper book I read was “Future Grace” I only read it because I was trying to figure out why my young family members who went to study with him became such as zombies.

    The book was all the flowery verbosity and circular reasoning we get in person. I thought if I could strip away the millions of adjectives and adverbs, I might get to the heart of it. But it was all circular with a faulty premise. You can’t land that plane. It was extremely frustrating. My guess was the young ones were caught up in the syrupy emotional language that is his trademark.


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    @ Todd Wilhelm:
    That whole episode still blows my mind. I think of all the time and effort LifeWay, Platt, Piper and the others devoted to deceiving their followers and others.


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    Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.” – Luke 13:1-5

    The tendency to blame accidents and natural disasters on sinning sinners and the sins they sin is an ancient one; but Jesus is establishing that those who die are no different than those who live. Something that Piper doesn’t seem to get. I guess when he says he’s being biblical, he means being like the people who would blame disaster on sin. He doesn’t get that “being Biblical” isn’t what we’re called to do.


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    Jamie Carter wrote:

    ; but Jesus is establishing that those who die are no different than those who live. Something that Piper doesn’t seem to get.

    And that’s not the only time he made a similar point! Think of the poor blind man. Jesus consistently said ‘this disaster/illness has nothing to do with sin’.


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    Cindy Meyers wrote:

    Oh, Deb.. I started watching CJ Mahaney preaching from the SGC Pastor’s conference…

    I took your implicit advice, and didn’t start watching.

    #weDoTheseExperimentsSoYouDontHaveTo


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    So what is that picture of Piper with one hand over his head and the other looking like it is trying to clamp his mouth shut?

    Is that him demonstrating how women should be, silent with an oppressive covering pushing down their heads.
    Or is it demonstrating what needs to be done to those exposing C.J.’s corruption?

    That is a very strange stance. Part of me wonders what it means in context. Another part is glad I don’t know.

    Whatever is going on, he’s a passionate speaker. To bad it’s for the wrong things and he is standing of the wrong side of so many issues.


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    siteseer wrote:

    I think we should have a caption contest for that photo at the top of Piper and Mahaney.

    I like these games. I relieves some of the stress. It stresses me that these men exist, claim to represent Christ, and are believed by hundreds of thousands.

    Mahaney: “Did you know that I’m the greatest sinner of all?”
    Piper: “You and me both, Buddy. You and me both.”

    Or better yet:

    Mahaney: “Did you know that I’m the most humble man of all?”
    Piper: ” “You and me both, Buddy.”

    These are not very good. I’m sure someone can come up with better ones.


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    Picture caption:

    “This is the International sign for Monkey” ?

    “The Glorious Gospel is like patting your head and chewing gum at the same time”


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    The first picture is how I always picture Mahaney. The fawning giggler.

    It still boggles my mind the stoic Mohler fell for it. I guess the money helped.


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    Deb wrote:

    Who else remembers this?

    Gramp3 and I certainly remember it and asked some elders about it. Got a big *shrug* and what’s the big deal. We were stunned by that and their responses regarding MahI aney. I imagine their response to The Village ELDERS would be similarly outrageous. They have lost the plot and they lost it so long ago that they do not even remember what the plot is. Nor do they show that they care what the plot is.


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    R.C. Sproul, Sr. used the same “God damn you” line about Jesus on the cross at the 2008 (IIRC) T4g. The crowd loved it. Sounds like that was the line for 2008.


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    About the photo, and about the comment about how many people follow those guys, I think it is pitiful. They look so old and crumpled and odd and CJ there in clothes that don’t fit. These guys are not too far away from their own last battle, their own one fight more, the best, the last (Browning). It is time to repent, not time to laugh. What is that line..Oh to see ourselves as others see us, ‘twould from many a blunder free us and foolish notion. (Burns) They look foolish. But really sad is the damage done to the followers.

    Maybe the photo says, It’s not really all over if you can still get a laugh here and there. Let’s pretend a little longer. Sure, count me in.


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    Mara wrote:

    It stresses me that these men exist, claim to represent Christ, and are believed by hundreds of thousands.

    It stresses me that you can’t say ‘that was a terrible/dumb thing to say’ about them without their followers shutting down their brains and defending them, no matter what.


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    @ Lydia:
    Without a doubt, there’s issues in society. But… We didn’t cook ourselves when we realized CFC’s were eating the ozone layer. We’ve brought ourselves back from the brink of nuclear annihilation (not eliminated the threat but we’re approaching 80 years of the capability to do so). The big nation states haven’t gone to war since WWII – total war, nothing in this century compares in misery and destruction – and don’t forget WWI – the 20th century had massive wars.
    It seems a little beyond the scope of this post but does connect. These are the fears that Piper and company use to keep people in check. It’s getting worse. We are on the brink of destruction. Worse….this is how God wants it to be!
    I’m an optimist, I have kids. I believe all our problems can be solved and that it’s up to us…people. That is one of my core beliefs.

    BTW – in 1997 my city was in danger of being inundated by a “flood of the century”. People came together to sandbag, some houses were lost and those who lost it all went on to help the next house, and when that one fell they went to the next and so on. Some neighborhoods were evacuated. There were no instances of looting. I’ve seen the best we can be and I know it doesn’t happen everywhere, but I can’t believe in a religion where the “good” rejoice in the destruction of creation and take joy in the wrath against “unbelievers”.

    My 7 year old son said to me one day while we were doing yard work “I think God is happy we are taking care of our yard” – Personally, I don’t know if there is a God or not but I like to think if there is, he would be happy if we would take care of “his yard”


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    @ Jack:
    Beautiful comment, JACK.


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    All one tends to see from John Piper is confusion and incompetence and self importance and petty cruelties. There’s no other rational explanation for the tweets that an imbecile would know would be extraordinarily painful for victims of disaster. We’ve all said stupid things that caused others pain, sometimes I seem to specialize in it (including on TWW), but generally, the Christian response is to apologize and to try to change–to absolutely own it.

    Don’t know that I’ve ever seen a Christian celebrity–and certainly not John Piper–truly own it and truly apologize in a manner that couldn’t easily be understood as either an attempt to deflect, confuse, turn blame back on others, or call attention back to self and get universal pity.

    If you care about people, you don’t use their disasters to make your points. The only time Jesus used a disaster to make a point was to specifically tell people that the disaster did not befall the people due to their sin!

    But if you’re in idolatry of a made up God of Determinism, rather than the One of Love described in the Bible and demonstrated by Jesus, or maybe you’re just in idolatry of the concept of determinism itself (like many atheists), you’ll tend to do some cold, heartless things, and when called on it, you just won’t see a reason to apologize to the little people who can’t be expected to understand the great knowledge you’ve mastered.

    I’ve seen some crackpots, some Elmer Gantrys, become famous in Christendom, e.g., Jimmy Swaggart, but don’t know if I’ve ever seen a pseudo Christian celeb who impressed me as cold and smug as Mr. Piper.


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    Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    Back to Piper’s offensive video, it points again to his lack of judgment when it comes to public speech. He continually demonstrates that the “functional authority” he blathered on about at the Sovereign Grace Pastors Conference is not practiced in his life. If the UAE officials would have seen the video I have no doubt Piper would have, at the least, had his visa revoked and never been allowed back in the UAE. He may have spent some time in prison. It is not difficult to view his statement as a radical Christian terrorist making a threat.

    I completely agree. I kept waiting for a reference to that video as an example, but since it was taken down, I imagine that it would not be a good idea.


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    Jack wrote:

    My 7 year old son said to me one day while we were doing yard work “I think God is happy we are taking care of our yard” – Personally, I don’t know if there is a God or not but I like to think if there is, he would be happy if we would take care of “his yard”

    I agree with your seven year-old!


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    Before this post, in my reviews of aberrant religion, I’ve taken an interest in Robert Tilton lately. There’s a lot of old footage of him on YouTube. It’s easy to laugh at him now, but remember that people believed in him enough to give him thousands of dollars they didn’t have to give.

    To offer an idea, he speaks with absolute conviction and a captivating emotional intensity. He got happy, sad, excited, and angry and accusatory within spans of minutes. And so, his more bizarre outbursts became endearing to his followers. That’s just how excited he is for the Lord, after all.

    Now, is John Piper not the same?


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    Mara wrote:

    Whatever is going on, he’s a passionate speaker. To bad it’s for the wrong things and he is standing of the wrong side of so many issues.

    There’s another one I’ve never gotten. Have heard this from so many corners, including from some close friends. But I’ve heard Piper speak multiple times in person. In Bethlehem Baptist, downtown Minneapolis, two decades ago in his prime. I speak professionally and it’s the only thing I’m consistently excellent at (certainly not a renowned scholar, certainly wasn’t a rainmaking attorney!), I get paid decent money to speak at conferences (finally, after years of trying) and Piper always impressed me as third place at the local Toastmaster’s Club, the earnest guy without a gift who by dint of sheer effort managed to get by, but really wasn’t very good. Piper might be passionate, and I know that’s all you said, you didn’t call him great, but he’s not very good.


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    Here’s some more weather for Piper to divine:

    Baptist Press 11-17-1989

    http://media.sbhla.org.s3.amazonaws.com/6882,17-Nov-1989.PDF

    “The storm system moved into Georgia and caused several tornadoes around 7:30 p.m. Eastern time, around Atlanta. Albert Mohler, editor of the Georgia Baptist Christian Index, said his automobile was totaled when a tree fell on it at his home in Gwinnett County, east of Atlanta.”


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    Lydia wrote:

    “Scream of the damned” should have put an end to any Theological cred they had at all.

    It is scary how few pastors spoke out against it. I found 2 online back then! Yet many pastors praised it!

    I don’t see how much else can be expected from a religion which at its roots is sick and twisted.


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    @ Jack:
    I think what your son said is very precious. He gets it. Out of the mouths of babes!

    I don’t think we will see any nation state type wars much anymore. I don’t think it works that way anymore. It is more deceptive and vague and technology will be a big player in the sorts of things okrapod mentioned. Just think of the havoc a few months of no power would cause.


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    Jack wrote:

    I’m an optimist, I have kids….. Personally, I don’t know if there is a God or not but I like to think if there is, he would be happy if we would take care of “his yard”

    Jack, can I say something and you won’t be offeded? Oh, what the heck, I plan to say it anyhow, I just don’t want you to quit commenting because you have some good stuff to say.

    At some level of final reasoning nobody is sure of God’s existence, but some people function as if there is, and some people believe that they believe, and mostly that is based on intimate relational experience with what for all the world seems to be God. One of the amazing things about that is that one no longer even has to be an optimist, in the usual sense of that word. If things turn out well, God is there. If things go to perdition in the proverbial hand basket, God is there. It is the ‘there-ness’ that is non-negotionable, not the circumstances.

    But hey, if God wants to do something about His yard then He and I need to have a little talk about kudzu.


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    Lea wrote:

    It stresses me that you can’t say ‘that was a terrible/dumb thing to say’

    I know, right?

    Got into a knock down, drag out with some idiot over the wives should submit to abuse for a season video.
    They guy would NOT admit that Piper was way out in left field with that one. Would NOT admit that Piper was wrong in what he said.
    Nope, the problem was that I was an angry and unsubmissive woman who needed to get over herself and accept the wisdom of such a godly man.


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    @ Stan:
    I see it. I remember one True Womanhood conference (Nancy DeMoss) Piper spoke where the women attendees were given white hankies to wave when the speakers directed them to. I never really understood the reason for the hankies but women were talking about it on blogs who had attended.

    My first thought was Tilton. I will admit we had boot leg video of him some wag had added certain sounds for further entertainment purposes. He had some sort of hankie blessing thing going on, for a price of course


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    okrapod wrote:

    It is the ‘there-ness’ that is non-negotionable, not the circumstances.

    Well said.


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    Law Prof wrote:

    you didn’t call him great, but he’s not very good.

    Nope, neither he nor Driscoll ever impressed me as good speakers.
    Got into it with Driconians concerning what a ‘great’ communicator Driscoll was.
    Really?
    Seriously?
    And what did they have as a measuring rod for greatness, I wonder. Whatever it was, it was pathetic.


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    Lydia wrote:

    white hankies to wave when the speakers directed them to

    Wasn’t that like waving a white flag, a sign of surrender or ‘joyfully submitting’ or something?
    Or am I confusing that with something else.


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    “John Piper, not unlike the charlatan Elmer Gantry in Sinclair Lewis’ novel of the same name, has once again demonstrated a notable lack of any decency, kindness or reason.” (Todd Wilhelm)

    Yes, Piper and Gantry were cut out of the same mold. Good actors, gift of gab, false humility, charlatanry wrapped in religion … Pied Pipers extraordinaire. I just don’t get the Millennial and Generation Xer fascination in Piper – he looks and acts like the weird uncle your mama told you to steer clear of.

    From the closing lines of the Elmer Gantry movie:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8FaDaTD_hA


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    “Biblical Functional Authority” – a series of words that, when put together, sounds impressive but in reality means nothing.

    When Jesus noticed that His disciples were marveling that demons had to obey them, He said: However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven. Those adherents to the Neo-Cal doctrine would do well to heed Jesus’ words and rejoice in what really matters.


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    Piper, Mahaney, and other New Calvinist notables would not have a stage if it weren’t for a gullible audience. They offer no spiritual substance to the church of the living God. It appears that 21st century churchgoers are satisfied to live far below what the Lord intends for His children. As long as the church (with a little “c”) seeks another gospel, there will be plenty of Pipers to give them what they want.


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    If this movement was smart, they would disown the crazies and the abusers. I worked in business for awhile, and whenever someone caused a scandal, they were silently dismissed, and nobody was allowed to talk about them. I worked with some not-so-nice, but very cunning people, and they always quickly separated themselves from others whose scandals brought down their name.

    The fact that the leaders of the TGC and others keep standing with crazies like Piper and abuse enablers like Mahaney proves they are not only not of God, but they are not cunning or wise.

    I guess it works in politics, where people (on both sides; I’m an independent) just pretend like a problem doesn’t exist, even though there’s quite a lot of evidence of criminal activity, shady politics, and just plain horrible people.

    What I don’t get is why people keep following these awful people? How do we teach people to be wise and not fall into the trap of cultic abuse?


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    ishy wrote:

    leaders of the TGC and others keep standing with crazies like Piper and abuse enablers like Mahaney

    The New Calvinist who’s-who must have formed a blood pact with each other years ago, agreeing to stand together to the bitter end. I sure wish the bitter end of this movement would come soon!


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    Max wrote:

    I sure wish the bitter end of this movement would come soon!

    Be we all know there’s going to be one!


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    Harley wrote:

    To constantly berate people like Piper and CJ do, is demeaning to those who have lived thru tragedies. I don’t wish tragedy on anyone.

    Well said, Harley.


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    @ Mara:
    I think that was part of it: affirming their commitment to joyfully submitting by waving white hanky.
    .it was about 1O years ago or so.


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    ishy wrote:

    we all know there’s going to be one

    The problem with bitter ends to religious movements is that they leave deceived masses of good people in their wake. When the smoke and mirrors of New Calvinism fade into obscurity, its leaders will still have their fat bank accounts but their followers will be left empty and disillusioned.


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    #weDoTheseExperimentsSoYouDontHaveTo

    Heh, heh. That reminds me of the “Oh No! Ross and Carrie” show. They’re two former Christians who spend their time reporting on fringe science and strange claims. I checked out their podcast series on Scientology a while ago; they did a good job, and were a lot of fun to listen to.


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    Deb wrote:

    C.J. Mahaney and John Piper are both hard to watch because their arm movements are so terribly distracting!

    Overdone arm gestures are really common among religious charlatans, something I’ve noticed every time I flip channels past TBN.

    My opinion is, overdone arm gestures are the body language equivalent of too many adjectives in language: they are both trying way too hard to persuade. Which makes me ask, why are you trying so very hard to persuade me? Is your message not enough to stand on its own? And the answer in these cases is yes. The harder the person is trying to persuade, the more you have to ask yourself why.


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    Nick at 4:19 a.m. and Law Prof at 11:32 a.m. have summed it up. Years ago it became evident to me that Piper is someone who worships a book. I found this situation to be rather widespread, and it is one of the reasons I left Evangelicalsm. I love Scripture – and it is not an end unto itself. Making it so is simply a dead end.


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    brian wrote:

    It is that he really thinks that he will have a front row seat at the judgement seat of God. There is even a bit of a hint that God will get even for Piper.

    Here is the link https://youtu.be/HSMWvIoxyCI

    ‘There is even a bit of a hint that God will get even for Piper’

    I see it, too. Reminds me of this:
    ““You can safely assume you’ve created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.”
    (A. Lamott)


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    Jamie Carter wrote:

    The tendency to blame accidents and natural disasters on sinning sinners and the sins they sin is an ancient one; but Jesus is establishing that those who die are no different than those who live. Something that Piper doesn’t seem to get. I guess when he says he’s being biblical, he means being like the people who would blame disaster on sin. He doesn’t get that “being Biblical” isn’t what we’re called to do.

    This tendency seems like the same dynamic that led pagan religious systems to sacrifice people to their god, to try to assuage some anger on the part of their god and persuade him to allow them to live in safety.

    I think some believers accept the reasoning because of fear, because they want to believe that if we all just did everything “right” then nothing bad would happen to us. It will only happen to “those other people” those bad people.


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    siteseer wrote:

    My opinion is, overdone arm gestures are the body language equivalent of too many adjectives in language: they are both trying way too hard to persuade.

    Some of this can be cultural though. Some cultures use their hands more for communication. I am bad about talking with my hands so maybe I have sympathy!

    But I’m not speaking in front of people every week either. A little practice should be help you drop bad habits.

    The thing that bugged me most about CJ was that dumb modesty video and that was just his voice.


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    Law Prof wrote:

    Piper always impressed me as third place at the local Toastmaster’s Club, the earnest guy without a gift who by dint of sheer effort managed to get by, but really wasn’t very good. Piper might be passionate, and I know that’s all you said, you didn’t call him great, but he’s not very good.

    Maybe it’s like in politics; the person who speaks the words the person wants to hear is “a great speaker.”


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    Cindy Meyers wrote:

    Is it just me or does anyone else have trouble watching all the theatrics with his hands and breathy, choppy speaking where it sounds like he can’t get the word out.

    I think he’s feigning a humble struggle to let God speak through him. It’s an unconvincing performance. No matter how much as he pretends to wrestle with his own inadequacy, he also has to project his own pompous greatness.

    Hard. To. Watch.


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    Lea wrote:

    Some of this can be cultural though. Some cultures use their hands more for communication. I am bad about talking with my hands so maybe I have sympathy!

    I think, though, they go beyond the normal hand gesturing people do in the course of talking- it’s just over the top. If you turn off the sound and just watch them, they are trying *so hard* – too hard.


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    Mara wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    white hankies to wave when the speakers directed them to
    Wasn’t that like waving a white flag, a sign of surrender or ‘joyfully submitting’ or something?

    I’m hoping it was more like standing on a dock, waving goodbye to an old steam ship that will disappear over the horizon, never to return.


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    Mara wrote:

    Got into a knock down, drag out with some idiot over the wives should submit to abuse for a season video.
    They guy would NOT admit that Piper was way out in left field with that one. Would NOT admit that Piper was wrong in what he said.
    Nope, the problem was that I was an angry and unsubmissive woman who needed to get over herself and accept the wisdom of such a godly man.

    Slighty OT, I read an excellent series on female submission theology yesterday, really well done- http://www.gothhouse.org/blog/never-a-helpmeet-part-1-selfish/

    Mara wrote:

    Got into it with Driconians concerning what a ‘great’ communicator Driscoll was.
    Really?
    Seriously?

    She wrote a great one on Driscoll, too- http://www.gothhouse.org/blog/mark-driscoll-and-the-he-man-woman-haters-gospel/


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    @ Mara:
    @ Lydia:

    lol!

    “…and then I told her ‘you have to submit to abuse for a season'”

    “…so then I said, ‘but we keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account!'”


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    @ Friend:
    Yes, like the old movies..

    :o)


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    @ siteseer:
    .lol! Where have I heard that before…..


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    Piper must have never heard the axiom, “Always tell the truth, but don’t always go telling it.” Even if (and that is a big if) his theology and biblical exegesis is correct, there are times when silence is the only correct response. “But the LORD is in His holy temple. Let all the earth keep silence before Him.” Habakkuk 2:20


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    Friend wrote:

    Mara wrote:
    Lydia wrote:
    white hankies to wave when the speakers directed them to
    Wasn’t that like waving a white flag, a sign of surrender or ‘joyfully submitting’ or something?
    I’m hoping it was more like standing on a dock, waving goodbye to an old steam ship that will disappear over the horizon, never to return.

    Tee hee. Makes me think about the old game of “drop the handkerchief” we used to play in VBS. Throw that thing on the ground and RUN!!!!!!


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    Max wrote:

    The New Calvinist who’s-who must have formed a blood pact with each other years ago, agreeing to stand together to the bitter end. I sure wish the bitter end of this movement would come soon!

    Maybe the “bitter end” was the front end.


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    ishy wrote:

    Max wrote:
    I sure wish the bitter end of this movement would come soon!
    Be we all know there’s going to be one!

    Any idea of how many years it will take? 9 years? 15 years? We’re already seeing cracks in the movement.


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    Lydia wrote:

    The first picture is how I always picture Mahaney. The fawning giggler.
    It still boggles my mind the stoic Mohler fell for it. I guess the money helped.

    Spot on.


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    As far as whether anyone has taken Mr. Piper out of context (a discussion in the excerpts from Zach’s blog on the tornado tweet), I don’t think that’s at all the case.

    Even if it were, Mr. Piper’s followrs should be the last to complain. Mr. Piper has admitted not knowing the context of a tragedy (a young teenager’s death) and yet passing judgment on a mother’s for not raising their kids right. Mega Pastor Passes Judgment and Blames Mothers.


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    Friend wrote:

    I’m hoping it was more like standing on a dock, waving goodbye to an old steam ship that will disappear over the horizon, never to return.

    That is a good one.


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    Velour wrote:

    Any idea of how many years it will take? … We’re already seeing cracks in the movement.

    That is hard to predict. I’m not even sure the New Calvinist (NC) movement has peaked yet. Southern Baptist seminaries continue to crank out NC seminary graduates by the hundreds each year who are entering SBC churches to Calvinize the non-Calvinist membership. But one thing is for sure, any short-term good they think they may be doing to restore the “gospel” which the rest of us have lost will lead to long-term confusion in SBC ranks – a once-great evangelistic denomination will never be the same again.


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    Max wrote:

    I’m not even sure the New Calvinist (NC) movement has peaked yet. Southern Baptist seminaries continue to crank out NC seminary graduates by the hundreds each year who are entering SBC churches to Calvinize the non-Calvinist membership. But one thing is for sure, any short-term good they think they may be doing to restore the “gospel” which the rest of us have lost will lead to long-term confusion in SBC ranks – a once-great evangelistic denomination will never be the same again.

    Thanks, Max.

    With the couple hundred thousand living members leaving the Southern Baptists every year, fed up with the teachings/NeoCalvinism/Patriarchy, it doesn’t seem possible for SBers to recover.

    I live in California, not The South, so I’ve only read about the megas that expand quickly. But they also seem to contract quickly and go the way of Mars Hill in Seattle: implode from authoritarian abuses and financial mismanagement. As others here have pointed out, it takes a lot of $$$$$$$$$$$$ to run a mega.


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    I continue to be amazed that these characters have so many followers! Surely, they are getting sick of Piper Points and Mahaney Malarkey at this point! Scripture talks about folks who will get so off-track from Truth that God will send them a strong delusion, that they would believe that which is false. New Calvinism is a strong delusion; Piper and Mahaney are deluders. Be careful what you hear little ears.


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    siteseer wrote:

    I think, though, they go beyond the normal hand gesturing people do in the course of talking- it’s just over the top. If you turn off the sound and just watch them, they are trying *so hard* – too hard.

    Maybe it’s my upbringing, but when a speaker starts to shout, I generally stop listening. If their ideas aren’t cogent enough to be effective without volume, I’m not really interested.

    I was listening to an interview with NT Wright yesterday… It’s really hard to even IMAGINE him shouting. Those are the sorts of speakers I’m drawn to, really confident in the power of their ideas.


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    @ Max:

    I am not seeing any megas in trouble around here. That is I don’t see them closing or cutting back programs or empty parking lots. Do you know how big a church has to be in order to be called a mega? Can you be a mega if you are merely large but do not have the pattern of satellites and video screens? Can you be a mega if you are not evangelical? What about the big newish catholic church here? Does that count? In other words, does the word ‘mega’ just mean size or does it mean something else also?

    What I am saying is that we have a lot of big churches around here of various denominations and I would like to know who is a mega and who is not.


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    GSD wrote:

    Maybe it’s my upbringing, but when a speaker starts to shout, I generally stop listening. If their ideas aren’t cogent enough to be effective without volume, I’m not really interested.
    I was listening to an interview with NT Wright yesterday… It’s really hard to even IMAGINE him shouting. Those are the sorts of speakers I’m drawn to, really confident in the power of their ideas.

    This is how I feel about being shouted at by a preacher or anyone. The speaker has lost me when they go down this road.


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    Velour wrote:

    We’re already seeing cracks in the movement.

    There are two elements of the movement that may prove to be Achilles heels (one for each foot they stick in their mouth): (1) when enough eternally-subordinate women ensnared by New Calvinism finally rise up in en masse to declare “Wait just a darn minute here!” and start a ruckus, and (2) when arrogant Neo-Cal leaders start vying for limited thrones and start fussing among themselves, an implosion will occur.


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    okrapod wrote:

    Do you know how big a church has to be in order to be called a mega?

    The usual rule-of-thumb is average weekly attendance of 2,000 or more.


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    Velour wrote:

    couple hundred thousand living members leaving the Southern Baptists every year, fed up with the teachings/NeoCalvinism/Patriarchy

    I resemble that remark!


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    Max wrote:

    when arrogant Neo-Cal leaders start vying for limited thrones and start fussing among themselves, an implosion will occur.

    Yes, they turn on each other.

    H.U.G. usually has some good quotes for this.


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    Max wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    couple hundred thousand living members leaving the Southern Baptists every year, fed up with the teachings/NeoCalvinism/Patriarchy
    I resemble that remark!

    LOL.


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    Max wrote:

    okrapod wrote:
    Do you know how big a church has to be in order to be called a mega?
    The usual rule-of-thumb is average weekly attendance of 2,000 or more.

    Yes, that is what the mega lister thing uses. But a 2k church just feels like a large but normal church to me. It isn’t anything compared to 36k at Gateway/multiple screens/etc. I think if you have to have more than, say, three services and/or multiple campuses, you might be a mega.


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    Bridget wrote:

    This is how I feel about being shouted at by a preacher or anyone.

    If you’re shouting at me, there better be a fire or something.


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    @ Max:

    Okay, thanks. The Hartford Institute for Research has a bunch more qualifiers for that definition. I needed to know what description you were using.

    We have quite a few big churches but I would need a weekend attendance actual count to know if they meet that goal, assuming they don’t have to be evangelical. I am thinking that several might what with multiple services and all. The SBC one is the only one I am sure about and only then because I caught them on some list a couple of years ago, and only if you count the satellites which I assume they do. So I am thinking that people seem to like big churches.

    I am thinking also that we have a significant number of schools affiliated with churches, and I am thinking that the influence of a church depends on a lot more than who shows up for preaching on Sunday. But that is a different topic I guess.


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    Velour wrote:

    With the couple hundred thousand living members leaving the Southern Baptists every year, fed up with the teachings/NeoCalvinism/Patriarchy, it doesn’t seem possible for SBers to recover.

    I think so many “leaders” within the SBC are extremely worried about never getting their pensions when they retire in the next 10 years. They see the money drying up. The SBC was once a great organization but the TAKEOVER ripped the very soul and civility out of it.


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    okrapod wrote:

    @ Max:

    I am not seeing any megas in trouble around here. That is I don’t see them closing or cutting back programs or empty parking lots. Do you know how big a church has to be in order to be called a mega? Can you be a mega if you are merely large but do not have the pattern of satellites and video screens? Can you be a mega if you are not evangelical? What about the big newish catholic church here? Does that count? In other words, does the word ‘mega’ just mean size or does it mean something else also?

    What I am saying is that we have a lot of big churches around here of various denominations and I would like to know who is a mega and who is not.

    I’ve even seen the word megachurch used to refer to non-Christian congregations. A while ago I read an article about two Scientology megachurches being built in Taiwan.


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    The real problem with the Neo Calvinist is he or she has an answer for every single life question. And this answer is always divinely inspired. No deviation to the left or right is tolerated. You know one of the guys at Mortification of Spin wrote about how the New Calvinist movement was all into reading authors who quote Calvin but have actually never read him. They might be shocked to find out that some of their conjectures would have landed them squarely in the pyre at worst and at best a swift boot out of Geneva. Don’t even get me started on what Luther would say about them… That’s my favorite when they quote Luther to make their point. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Why do American Evangelicals have to spin a narrative that every single well known Christian in history was actually an American Evangelical as well?? It’s soon frustrating. Augustine through the Reformers of the 16th century were all actually American Evangelicals. If you didn’t know that now you do.


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    @ Max:

    Well, the mega mega size is probably too much for me, but I like the size of the smaller mega here in our town. The size is all that I like about it; it is not my church. Once you have worked for a big company or a big hospital or gone to a good size university or such the larger size just feels comfortable. I think that I ought to prefer the smaller church size, and if I were a good person I probably would prefer it, but I just don’t. Out church has about 1.000 members but only about 300 on a Sunday on a good day. That size seems a bit awkward to me, but that is not really high on my list of issues.


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    mot wrote:

    The SBC was once a great organization but the TAKEOVER ripped the very soul and civility out of it.

    It’s so sad what has happened.


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    @ okrapod:
    The definitions keep changing. There are mini Megas which a years back were over 1000 people. That seems small today.

    I thought of this years ago after my mother died. I was going through boxes in her basement and came across the childhood ice tea glasses we used for the patio. When I was a kid they were huge! It took a long time to drink it all which was the point of iced tea on the patio. Now, They looked tiny.

    A big church back then was anything over 600 people. If it grew, you planted another church.

    We super size everything including church. Now people see Megas as running 20thou on weekends on all campuses, the last I heard. They gave up on keeping them all in one place. :o)


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    Robin C wrote:

    The real problem with the Neo Calvinist is he or she has an answer for every single life question. And this answer is always divinely inspired. No deviation to the left or right is tolerated.

    This.


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    Robin C wrote:

    The real problem with the Neo Calvinist is he or she has an answer for every single life question. And this answer is always divinely inspired. No deviation to the left or right is tolerated. You know one of the guys at Mortification of Spin wrote about how the New Calvinist movement was all into reading authors who quote Calvin but have actually never read him. They might be shocked to find out that some of their conjectures would have landed them squarely in the pyre at worst and at best a swift boot out of Geneva. Don’t even get me started on what Luther would say about them… That’s my favorite when they quote Luther to make their point. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Why do American Evangelicals have to spin a narrative that every single well known Christian in history was actually an American Evangelical as well?? It’s soon frustrating. Augustine through the Reformers of the 16th century were all actually American Evangelicals. If you didn’t know that now you do.

    I once saw a children’s video in the library at my parents’ EFCA church. It was an animated film depicting several Christian heroes: three Protestant missionaries, and a certain “Pastor Damien”. That is, Father Damien. The jacket notes made no mention of him being Catholic and he wasn’t even drawn in clerical garb. In other words, they “Prot-washed” him.


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    mot wrote:

    I think so many “leaders” within the SBC are extremely worried about never getting their pensions

    True. I’ve read blog articles about it.
    Pastors used to work full time jobs outside of the ministry, and they did not expect a pension for pastoring.


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    Max wrote:

    I resemble that remark

    Are we twins? I resemble that remark, too!


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    Robin C wrote:

    The real problem with the Neo Calvinist is he or she has an answer for every single life question. And this answer is always divinely inspired.

    “IT IS WRITTEN! IT IS WRITTEN! IT IS WRITTEN!”


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    MidwesternEasterner wrote:

    A while ago I read an article about two Scientology megachurches being built in Taiwan.

    How appropriate.


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    Velour wrote:

    Max wrote:

    when arrogant Neo-Cal leaders start vying for limited thrones and start fussing among themselves, an implosion will occur.

    Yes, they turn on each other.

    H.U.G. usually has some good quotes for this.

    What do predators eat after they’ve killed off all the prey?


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    Velour wrote:

    Any idea of how many years it will take? 9 years? 15 years? We’re already seeing cracks in the movement.

    Since The System is Never Wrong, as The System keeps cracking, the response is to double down AND SCREAM LOUDER!

    Remember the Brezhnev-era USSR?
    INCREASE POLITICAL CONSCIOUSNESS INDOCTRINATION!


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    “Your calling as pastors is to give the Bible functional authority in every tweet, blog, sermon, and bedside prayer.” (John Piper)

    Has anyone else noticed that the New Calvinists give the Bible more prominence than Jesus? A calling of pastor is to give JESUS authority in everything, not the Bible … and particularly not the ESV version of it which the New Calvinists have altered to make it fit their reformed grid. The new reformers would argue that the Word is ultimate authority … but they forget that Jesus is the Word! It’s a strange new world, this New Calvinism.


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    siteseer wrote:

    the person who speaks the words the person wants to hear is “a great speaker.”

    Wasn’t the difference between a false prophet and a true prophet is the false prophet tells the king what the king WANTS to hear and the true prophet tells the king what the king NEEDS to hear?


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    Robin C wrote:

    The real problem with the Neo Calvinist is he or she has an answer for every single life question.

    And most of their answers are wrong…


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Are we twins?

    We are kindred spirits, sister.


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    brian wrote:

    It is that he really thinks that he will have a front row seat at the judgement seat of God. There is even a bit of a hint that God will get even for Piper.

    Isn’t the difference between religion and magick that in magick the mortal sorcerer is in charge and the god/spirit/supernatural power is under his control? Including serving as the sorcerer’s muscle and enforcer? Both Manly Wade Wellman weird fiction and PA Dutch folk-magic traditions are full of Hexerai who use their familiar spirits or supernatural powers for extortion or revenge.


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    MidwesternEasterner wrote:

    a certain “Pastor Damien”. That is, Father Damien. The jacket notes made no mention of him being Catholic and he wasn’t even drawn in clerical garb. In other words, they “Prot-washed” him.

    His story is now available on Amazon Prime Video:
    ‘Molokai: The Story of Father Damien’


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    Max wrote:

    A calling of pastor is to give JESUS authority in everything

    I correct myself. Pastors can’t give Jesus authority. Jesus already has authority over everything in heaven and earth … pastors (indeed, all Christians) are to yield to His authority as we live for Him.


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    Tim wrote:

    As far as whether anyone has taken Mr. Piper out of context

    This raises a very significant philosophical point. Does Piper even have a context? I’ve found his teachings to be incoherent and inconsistent. So is it possible to put anything he states into context?


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    Ken F wrote:

    And most of their answers are wrong…

    But they are so eloquent in uttering their wrong answers!


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    Max wrote:

    I correct myself. Pastors can’t give Jesus authority. Jesus already has authority over everything in heaven and earth … pastors (indeed, all Christians) are to yield to His authority as we live for Him.

    Great point! Another related idea is the concept of “making Jesus Lord of your life.” I think he already is Lord of our lives, whether or not we accept it, like it, or believe it. If we can make him Lord, then he is not Lord because we are calling the shots instead of him.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Max wrote:
    when arrogant Neo-Cal leaders start vying for limited thrones and start fussing among themselves, an implosion will occur.
    Yes, they turn on each other.
    H.U.G. usually has some good quotes for this.
    What do predators eat after they’ve killed off all the prey?

    Thanks.


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    Max wrote:

    Has anyone else noticed that the New Calvinists give the Bible more prominence than Jesus? A calling of pastor is to give JESUS authority in everything, not the Bible

    Yes. I noticed that at my ex-NeoCalvinist church. And the Holy Spirit is also non-existent.


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    MidwesternEasterner wrote:

    I once saw a children’s video in the library at my parents’ EFCA church. It was an animated film depicting several Christian heroes: three Protestant missionaries, and a certain “Pastor Damien”. That is, Father Damien. The jacket notes made no mention of him being Catholic and he wasn’t even drawn in clerical garb. In other words, they “Prot-washed” him.

    Back during my time in country (Calvary Chapel) Papa Chuck never let an opportunity slip by in which he could denigrate the Catholic Church. His son in law (Brian Brodersen) carries on the tradition to this day, getting in a periodic jab at the Church on the Tiber.


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    Velour wrote:

    Max wrote:
    Has anyone else noticed that the New Calvinists give the Bible more prominence than Jesus? A calling of pastor is to give JESUS authority in everything, not the Bible
    Yes. I noticed that at my ex-NeoCalvinist church. And the Holy Spirit is also non-existent.

    They don’t need Jesus. They were chosen before the formation of the world.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Max wrote:
    Has anyone else noticed that the New Calvinists give the Bible more prominence than Jesus? A calling of pastor is to give JESUS authority in everything, not the Bible
    Yes. I noticed that at my ex-NeoCalvinist church. And the Holy Spirit is also non-existent.
    They don’t need Jesus. They were chosen before the formation of the world.

    So true. That’s exactly how the NeoCals talk. They are among The Elect and everyone else is going to the hot place.

    Authoritarian elder rule takes the place of the Holy Spirit in NeoCal churches and in believers’ lives; authoritarian husbands take the place of the Holy Spirit in NeoCal marriages/families. Any wonder why they have a skyrocketing divorce rate.


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    Velour wrote:

    Authoritarian elder rule takes the place of the Holy Spirit in NeoCal churches and in believers’ lives; authoritarian husbands take the place of the Holy Spirit in NeoCal marriages/families. Any wonder why they have a skyrocketing divorce rate.

    Bingo.


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    MidwesternEasterner wrote:

    I once saw a children’s video in the library at my parents’ EFCA church. It was an animated film depicting several Christian heroes: three Protestant missionaries, and a certain “Pastor Damien”. That is, Father Damien. The jacket notes made no mention of him being Catholic and he wasn’t even drawn in clerical garb. In other words, they “Prot-washed” him.

    Back during my time in country (Calvary Chapel) Papa Chuck never let an opportunity slip by in which he could denigrate the Catholic Church. His son in law (Brian Brodersen) carries on the tradition to this day, getting in a periodic jab at the Church on the Tiber.

    This works both ways. The Episcopal Church has formally adopted Southern Baptist Charlotte Diggs Moon (Lottie Moon), of blessed memory, who now has a feast day celebrated by the Episcopal Church on Dec. 22 each year.

    Looks like within the Body of Christ, we want to celebrate all of our saints and martyrs, even the ones from other ‘branches of the family’. I say if we are going to acknowledge our shared problems in the Church, then why not also celebrate our shared heroes and heroines also. It’s a way we can light some candles against the darkness.


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    @ ishy:
    Be ye cunny as serpents and gentle as doves .


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    MidwesternEasterner wrote:

    I’ve even seen the word megachurch used to refer to non-Christian congregations. A while ago I read an article about two Scientology megachurches being built in Taiwan.

    They’re called “Ideal Orgs” but wags like me call them “Idle Orgs” because they’re *empty*. It’s an excellent method of wealth transfer. Scientologists are constantly, constantly shaken down for money to purchase the property (which usually is historic or has some local significance), then money to redesign the place, money to remodel the place, money to furnish the place, money for the grand opening and to bring in David Miscavige to cut the ribbon, and then…nothing. They’re dead. Except for MORE fundraising to buy another building in another city and start the cycle over and over again. Scientology International owns all those buildings, not the locals.


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    ishy wrote:

    What I don’t get is why people keep following these awful people?

    Didn’t Mahaney make some extremely large ‘donations’ in order to get into the SBC?
    “Even so, we were both shocked when Deb found the following information which we posted in $$$The Mahaney Money Machine$$$

    PRESIDENT’S COUNCIL (Cumulative gifts of $100,000 or more)

    Individuals

    (1) C.J. Mahaney
    Businesses, Denominations and Foundations

    (2) Sovereign Grace Ministries
    Gaithersburg, Maryland

    SUSTAINING MEMBER (Cumulative gifts of $15,000 to $24,999)

    Churches

    (3) Covenant Life Church
    Gaithersburg, Maryland

    It’s noteworthy to mention that PDI gave to SBTS in 2002 at the Leader’s Associate level ($5,000 to $9,999). BTW, that was the same year that Sovereign Grace Ministries came into existence.

    If you want to see for yourself, go to this link:

    http://www.sbts.edu/media/publications/magazine/2008Spring.pdf ( Mahaney and SGM are listed on page 43, and CLC is on page 44.)”

    Money is the ‘reason’ these people get in the door. Without money, the gatekeepers wouldn’t give them the time of day. So much for integrity.


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    siteseer wrote:

    Maybe it’s like in politics; the person who speaks the words the person wants to hear is “a great speaker.”

    Or is a “deep thinker”. A sure sign of intelligence is agreeing with me.


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    Christiane wrote:

    . I say if we are going to acknowledge our shared problems in the Church, then why not also celebrate our shared heroes and heroines also. It’s a way we can light some candles against the darkness.

    They (generic they) don’t see it that way. They fancy themselves ancient Hebrew Bible warriors slashing and parrying with their swords. And candles? That would only strengthen their resolve to eradicate what is in their view Papist idolatry.
    But yeah, I say it too, light a candle, let it show the world by deeds in the here and now that the old ways and the horrors generated by the old ways no longer have to be.


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    Christiane wrote:

    Money is the ‘reason’ these people get in the door. Without money, the gatekeepers wouldn’t give them the time of day. So much for integrity.

    The fact that pastors have so much money to go politicking with scares the living daylights out of me.

    But I’m sure you’re right.


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    I suppose that we all know that money has always been a big issue. The SBC missionary enterprise was a big business with big money. The SBC universities talked about the money issue when they were splitting from their prior ‘arrangements’ with the Baptists-they could not expand, attract students, charge enough tuition to pay themselves, etc unless the baptists cut them free to do so. Anything, education, health care, social services, it all runs on money. In many ways the feds control us by threatening to withhold monies from our institutions.

    Criticisms of the Romans and the Mormons start with look how much money they have. And now in the current election look at the emphasis on political and personal monies. I am not thinking that we can do without money. Does money become a snare and a root for evil? Of course. But I don’t know how effectively to run these big projects without money. Is anybody really going to scuttle everything and wear burlap while begging on the street corner? More than one saint has done so, but I am not looking to see it happen en masse any ways soon.


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    Lydia wrote:

    It is more deceptive and vague and technology will be a big player in the sorts of things okrapod mentioned. Just think of the havoc a few months of no power would cause.

    I agree with this completely, but rather than do something about it, the Piper’s of the world would tell us to trust them and button up inside churches rather than engage in the world to stand up against injustice. As for a loss of power long term, they would have us cower rather than build bridges with our neighbors to survive the crisis. David Brin’s book “the Postman” is a cautionary tale against putting up walls in times of crisis.
    As for my son. He’s got more faith than I do. I went looking for a new computer when he was about 3. While I was talking to the sales guy, we looked over and my son had his hands up praying about our purchase. And quite loudly too.


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    okrapod wrote:

    Does money become a snare…

    I realise I’ve taken half a sentence out of context there, but it’s an interesting half…

    The idea of a snare is that once an animal puts its head in, it’s very difficult to get its head back out again. (See, for instance, my good friend Wikipedia on the topic.) There certainly is something snare-like about money, therefore! Once an organisation has got rich, it starts to spend those riches and it becomes harder and harder to do anything without them.

    I must sound like a complete stuck CD on “either/or” these days. But there are more options that just the deceitfulness of riches on the one hand, and grinding poverty on the other!


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    @ Dew:
    Cunning. (TYPO)


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    okrapod wrote:

    One of the amazing things about that is that one no longer even has to be an optimist, in the usual sense of that word. If things turn out well, God is there. If things go to perdition in the proverbial hand basket, God is there. It is the ‘there-ness’ that is non-negotionable, not the circumstances.

    I’m not offended by discussion. I enjoy hearing about all points of view as I believe there’s many ways to the truth.
    I think we can be optimists in the traditional sense whether we believe God is there or not. In a way optimism of that kind can be comfort in times of challenge, but can also empower us to challenge the status quo, kind of like TWW does with posts like this one.


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    okrapod wrote:

    I suppose that we all know that money has always been a big issue. The SBC missionary enterprise was a big business with big money. The SBC universities talked about the money issue when they were splitting from their prior ‘arrangements’ with the Baptists-they could not expand, attract students, charge enough tuition to pay themselves, etc unless the baptists cut them free to do so.

    While I struggle to keep my modest home in decent shape, and the income of SBC leaders and seminary presidents are kept secret, and people like Al Mohler, Paige Patterson, Charles Kelly, Steve Gaines, and Ronnie Floyd live in mansions, I have no sympathy for them. They have gone far beyond the desire for enough money for the institutions to function successfully and turned to personal greed, IMHO.


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    @ Nancy2:

    Yes there are abuses, and while we are naming names IIRC it was Billy Graham who was front and center about saying that how much money he personally made from the sale of his books was nobody’s business but his. Frankly, I do not know what I think about that. Not everybody is a Francis Chan, but it is hard to watch and hard to deal with.


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    They (generic they) don’t see it that way. They fancy themselves ancient Hebrew Bible warriors slashing and parrying with their swords.

    They’re role-playing gamers but won’t admit to it.

    No wonder Christians denounced D&D — stick a shiv in the competition.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    They don’t need Jesus. They were chosen before the formation of the world.

    God’s Speshul Pets Who Can Do No Wrong — the ultimate Inner Ring.


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    Back during my time in country (Calvary Chapel) Papa Chuck never let an opportunity slip by in which he could denigrate the Catholic Church.

    And PastorRaulReesCalvaryChapelWestCovina (all one word) was even more rabid.

    PastorChuckSmithCalvaryChapelCostaMesa also never let an opportunity slip by in which he could denounce Star Wars as The Occult. Most of the time he had to go out of his way to cause the opportunity.


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    Max wrote:

    Ken F wrote:

    And most of their answers are wrong…

    But they are so eloquent in uttering their wrong answers!

    Fluttering hands, Piping voice, twelve-syllable theological words, and all!


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    @ Nick Bulbeck:

    Yes indeed. Some have said that we need to do without the institutions, de-centralize, re-purpose, take quite different approaches for everything from the great commission mandate to our personal lives. I don’t know and have insufficient evidence, but something like that may be behind some of what Platt proposes for the missions endeavor; what to do when the money gives out. Our local parish is dealing with the same issue-where did the money go and what do we do now? This may all end well or not.


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    Christiane wrote:

    His story is now available on Amazon Prime Video:
    ‘Molokai: The Story of Father Damien’

    There was also a powerful one-man play titled “Damian” which I saw on PBS some 30 years ago.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    personal greed

    since early days in the faith, greed, money, and betrayal of Jesus have been connected together with tragic consequences


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    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    P.S. Now he’s “SAINT Damian de Veuster”, “SAINT Damian of Molokai”, or “SAINT Damian the Leper”.


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    Max wrote:

    Has anyone else noticed that the New Calvinists give the Bible more prominence than Jesus?

    It’s their Koran.


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    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    thanks, HEADLESS
    I’ll see if I can find a link that shows that presentation ….. I also get sales magazines from PBS which might sell the play on DVD


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    @ Max:

    Not just the Bible – the ESV Bible. Gotta have the 'correct' translation. 😉

    Sorry ESV lovers, your translation gets Genesis 3:16 WRONG!

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+3%3A16&version=ESV

    Genesis 3:16 (ESV)

    16 To the woman he said,

    “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing;
        in pain you shall bring forth children.
    Your desire shall be contrary to[a] your husband,
        but he shall rule over you.”

    Footnotes:

    1. Genesis 3:16 Or shall be toward (see 4:7)

    This is a serious error!


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    Alas, honesty and transparacy is not a valued virtue in much of evangelicism. 35 years ago I wittnessed similar marketing deception in a major campus ministry… Number one was winning more souls to Christ ( which was following simplistic tracks, praying the “prayer”, and counting the numbers). The tactics they used were just plan deceptive, and I am sure as the years go by the young people involved then, and have stayed with the system, have just perfected their techniques more!, as Todd points out here. If any of us questioned the tactics back then, we were shamed, and quickly relegated to the periphery ..

    Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    Bridget wrote:
    This reminds me of the video of Piper in the Middle East that was so bad people were asking him to take it down!
    Bridget,
    The original Piper video was taken down and replaced with one that was not as offensive. I had sent the original to a few key people in UCCD, asking them to consider what UAE officials would think if they saw it. Shortly thereafter the video was gone. I have an audio recording of the original video in which Piper said, “Behind me is the tallest city in the world… That tower and this city are coming down. this city is ripe with sin for the judgment of God unless radical Christians flood this city with the spectacular good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.”
    I am sure Piper meant “tallest building,” not “tallest city.” The video was filmed with the Burj Khalifa in the background and a call to prayer playing while he spoke. It was all for effect. The “radical Christians” was reminiscent of Platt’s deceptive ploy to pump book sales by holding a “simulacast” at a secret location in the Middle East where a Christian could lose his life for his beliefs. It was a cheap, deceptive trick; a lie. The broadcast originated in Dubai at a swanky hotel. My daughter attended. David Furman, senior pastor of Redeemer Church of Dubai (a UCCD church plant) hosted the event. Several Redeemer members were interviewed (including Furman) for a video played at the simulcast with their faces blacked out because of the “danger.” It was a total sham. There was no apology or confession of wrongdoing by either Platt, David Furman or Lifeway Publishers. Platt is now the head of the International Mission Board for the Southern Baptist Conference, Furman is a rising star among the neo-Cals. He just released a book and has been featured on 9Marx. ( https://9marks.org/interview/international-church-planting/ ) Furman’s wife, Gloria, has written several books and is a neo-Cal celeb in her own right.
    I did have the chance to speak with Mack Stiles about the Platt/Furman sham. He was quite embarrassed by it and had no explanation for it. Mack Stiles is a good friend of Mark Dever’s and was instrumental in bringing John Folmar to UCCD, where Stiles was an elder. Stiles then helped Furman plant Redeemer Church and has now moved to Louisville. He attends Third Avenue Baptist, a 9Marx church pastored by Greg Gilbert and Matt Smethurst, both former interns at Mark Dever’s Capitol Hill Baptist Church.
    Back to Piper’s offensive video, it points again to his lack of judgment when it comes to public speech. He continually demonstrates that the “functional authority” he blathered on about at the Sovereign Grace Pastors Conference is not practiced in his life. If the UAE officials would have seen the video I have no doubt Piper would have, at the least, had his visa revoked and never been allowed back in the UAE. He may have spent some time in prison. It is not difficult to view his statement as a radical Christian terrorist making a threat.


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    Ken F wrote:

    Does Piper even have a context? I’ve found his teachings to be incoherent and inconsistent. So is it possible to put anything he states into context?

    Except for the broad context of his agenda – men are in charge and women aren’t – I don’t see the consistency either. Everything has to fit the agenda – salvation, Christology, Pneumatology, Trinitarianism, etc. – and if it doesn’t fit naturally it can be forced into it.


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    Tim wrote:

    Except for the broad context of his agenda – men are in charge and women aren’t

    Denny Burk’s idea of functional authority – a couple of commenters really make it sound like woman is merely the first animal God gave man dominion over:
    http://www.dennyburk.com/egalitarianism-and-the-functional-authority-of-scripture-sarahbessey-candacecbure/


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    Velour wrote:

    Any wonder why they have a skyrocketing divorce rate.

    That reminds me of a joke.

    My husband and I divorced because of religious differences. He thought he was God and I didn’t.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    a couple of commenters really make it sound like woman is merely the first animal God gave man dominion over:

    They have to ignore a bunch of stuff to get there. But to men like Denny, this sums it all up “Bessey denies that headship is a concept rooted in scripture, yet here are verses from scripture that teach about headship. ”

    Even though ‘headship’ is a made up word.


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    @ Nancy2:

    Also, the first comment showing is lovely. A lady I was talking to at church the other day said the thing she learned about Paul’s letters is that you look at what the whole point of the letter/passage was. The sum up.

    Of course ‘head’ has to do with creation order because it is all about where things come from. Where things come from is mentioned five times in 1 Cor. 11:3-16 (vs. 8 & 12) And let’s not forget Paul’s overarching statement of summary for these verses, “In the Lord, however, woman is not independent from man, nor is man independent of woman. For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God.” (vs.11-12) Yes, woman came from man at creation, but that is a reason for their oneness, not an authoritarian relationship.


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    Lea wrote:

    Also, the first comment showing is lovely. A lady I was talking to at church the other day said the thing she learned about Paul’s letters is that you look at what the whole point of the letter/passage was. The sum up.

    I think so, too – not just about the comment, but Paul’s letters.
    These comp/pat guys keep going back to the first two chapters in Genesis. They ignore the fact that the text is not entirely in chronological order. “Male and female, created He them” is chapter one, but the story of creation of Eve isn’t until chapter two! The pronouns “them” and “they” are used in the verses about creation of “man” and “man’s” dominion over the animals. Why would the pronouns “they” and “them” be used if only Adam existed at that time? ………. How many times is the word “man” used throughout the Bible in reference to mankind (human beings)?


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    I must sound like a complete stuck CD on “either/or” these days. But there are more options that just the deceitfulness of riches on the one hand, and grinding poverty on the other!

    I agree. I learned long ago that perfection is a fool’s errand and that we have the ability to contain and minimize the worst abuses at both ends of the scale. If we don’t, then that’s on us, and all the Bible studies on ‘walking in the spirit’ is nothing more than ethereal nonsense.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    How many times is the word “man” used throughout the Bible in reference to mankind (human beings)?

    Yer not sposeta’ be askin’ questions like that. Yer sposeta’ believe what Denny Burk tells ya. If ya don’t, then ya prolly don’t believe the Bible, an’ yer prolly not saved anyway.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    How many times is the word “man” used throughout the Bible in reference to mankind (human beings)?

    Young dude influenced by Piper and Driscoll in my old church tried to pull this one on me. Said that part in the Bible about elders said that it read: if any MAN desires the position of elder HE should blah, blah, blah and so on and so forth. Therefore only men can be elders because of the word MAN and HE.

    Wish I had been quicker to remember: If any MAN be in Christ HE is a new creature etc. then said something along the lines of, “I guess us ladies are out of luck. We can’t be new creatures. I suppose we should leave this religion and find a religion that will actually let us in.”


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    Deb wrote:

    This is a serious error!

    After that news broke the law of unintended consequences came into effect for me. I have thoroughly eschewed the ESV from my use and now rely on the NIV, even when I am speaking from the pulpit.


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    Mara wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Any wonder why they have a skyrocketing divorce rate.
    That reminds me of a joke.
    My husband and I divorced because of religious differences. He thought he was God and I didn’t.

    Good one!


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    You guys should read what Randy Alcorn said about the “scream of the damned”

    Randy Alcorn recently penned an article at his blog about why you have to be careful about allegations of child sex abuse because they could be false accusations. He then goes to great lengths to talk about the issue. In light of all the issues with Sovereign Grace and allegations of child sex abuse cover up is this article an attempt by Randy Alcorn to subtly play down the issue? After all Randy has a close business relationship with C.J. Mahaney and Sovereign Grace and its in his financial interest to defend it. This post which deals with false accusations is written by someone who endured a false accusation from someone who was involved in Redeemer Arlington.

    https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2016/10/29/is-randy-alcorns-recent-blog-post-subtly-addressing-the-child-sex-abuse-allegations-in-sovereign-grace-a-response-from-a-false-accusation-survivor/


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    Dave (Eagle) wrote:

    You guys should read what Randy Alcorn said about the “scream of the damned”

    I can’t hear that phrase without thinking of Sam Kinison’s trademark:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxkWJcFhfkE


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    Mara wrote:

    Young dude influenced by Piper and Driscoll in my old church tried to pull this one on me. Said that part in the Bible about elders said that it read: if any MAN desires the position of elder HE should blah, blah, blah and so on and so forth. Therefore only men can be elders because of the word MAN and HE.

    Wish I had been quicker to remember: If any MAN be in Christ HE is a new creature etc. then said something along the lines of, “I guess us ladies are out of luck. We can’t be new creatures. I suppose we should leave this religion and find a religion that will actually let us in.”

    A little momento from classic Dr Demento, dedicated to that young Calvinjugend:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByE5Bc70w44


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    Christiane wrote:

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    thanks, HEADLESS
    I’ll see if I can find a link that shows that presentation ….. I also get sales magazines from PBS which might sell the play on DVD

    When you do, let me know. I’ve been looking for a copy, and it is really a POWERFUL piece.


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    Mara wrote:

    That reminds me of a joke.

    My husband and I divorced because of religious differences. He thought he was God and I didn’t.

    I think that my wife is divine.


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    Ken F wrote:

    Mara wrote:
    That reminds me of a joke.
    My husband and I divorced because of religious differences. He thought he was God and I didn’t.
    I think that my wife is divine.

    Brilliant.


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    Well, I need an early night.

    zzzzzzzzzzz


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    okrapod wrote:

    I suppose that we all know that money has always been a big issue. The SBC missionary enterprise was a big business with big money. The SBC universities talked about the money issue when they were splitting from their prior ‘arrangements’ with the Baptists-they could not expand, attract students, charge enough tuition to pay themselves, etc unless the baptists cut them free to do so. Anything, education, health care, social services, it all runs on money. In many ways the feds control us by threatening to withhold monies from our institutions.

    Money without accountability is a big problem anywhere.
    Money under cover of secrecy is a big problem anywhere.
    When Christian organizations realize there is money or power to be had, everything seems to go downhill.


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    siteseer wrote:

    okrapod wrote:

    I suppose that we all know that money has always been a big issue. The SBC missionary enterprise was a big business with big money. The SBC universities talked about the money issue when they were splitting from their prior ‘arrangements’ with the Baptists-they could not expand, attract students, charge enough tuition to pay themselves, etc unless the baptists cut them free to do so. Anything, education, health care, social services, it all runs on money. In many ways the feds control us by threatening to withhold monies from our institutions.

    Money without accountability is a big problem anywhere.
    Money under cover of secrecy is a big problem anywhere.
    When Christian organizations realize there is money or power to be had, everything seems to go downhill.

    I can remember a time when money was not the main focus in the SBC.


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    Mara wrote:

    Nancy2 wrote:

    How many times is the word “man” used throughout the Bible in reference to mankind (human beings)?

    Young dude influenced by Piper and Driscoll in my old church tried to pull this one on me. Said that part in the Bible about elders said that it read: if any MAN desires the position of elder HE should blah, blah, blah and so on and so forth. Therefore only men can be elders because of the word MAN and HE.

    Wish I had been quicker to remember: If any MAN be in Christ HE is a new creature etc. then said something along the lines of, “I guess us ladies are out of luck. We can’t be new creatures. I suppose we should leave this religion and find a religion that will actually let us in.”

    It is past time to recognize that God calls men and women equally into the Kingdom’s work.


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    mot wrote:

    I can remember a time when money was not the main focus in the SBC.

    I don’t think I can remember a time when there was not a strong emphasis on the funding of what SBC had to do. In fact, it used to be said that the convention was designed specifically to fund larger projects that were too big for the local churches or associations. I remember when there were schools and colleges and orphanages (way back when) and hospitals and a funded FMB and HMB and I remember well before the kerfluffle over the WMU hampered them in some churches.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    It’s their Koran.

    Yep, the ESV is really “The New Calvinist Version” … they will carry no other.


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    mot wrote:

    Mara wrote:
    Nancy2 wrote:
    How many times is the word “man” used throughout the Bible in reference to mankind (human beings)?
    Young dude influenced by Piper and Driscoll in my old church tried to pull this one on me. Said that part in the Bible about elders said that it read: if any MAN desires the position of elder HE should blah, blah, blah and so on and so forth. Therefore only men can be elders because of the word MAN and HE.
    Wish I had been quicker to remember: If any MAN be in Christ HE is a new creature etc. then said something along the lines of, “I guess us ladies are out of luck. We can’t be new creatures. I suppose we should leave this religion and find a religion that will actually let us in.”
    It is past time to recognize that God calls men and women equally into the Kingdom’s work.

    The word “man” used to be gender-neutral in the English language, too, back during the Anglo-Saxon era. It still is in German, I believe.


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    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    Wow. Never heard that one before. Thanks. I think. 😉


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    MidwesternEasterner wrote:

    The word “man” used to be gender-neutral in the English language,

    You and I know this. And much of the older generation. And this is what is wrong with letting young pups, with no understanding of history and language be leaders and ‘elders’. They haven’t lived long enough. They lack much in wisdom and understanding.
    This young dude was the youth pastor, teaching the youth. When my kids didn’t want to go anymore, I didn’t argue.


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    About one word with more than one meaning. We argue about that a lot in religious circles.

    In English of course ‘man’ is front and center right now. Truth is, the phrase ‘modern man’ is used in life science and anthropology and such to designate a certain developmental stage of our species, as one example.

    Then there is wife/woman in biblical Greek.

    And the use of brothers to mean everything from biological kinships of various kinds to buddies. That issue has been a dividing point on a certain doctrine.

    Anyhow, my point is that people do themselves a disservice if they don’t get comfortable with this usage. The passion for specificity can be carried too far.


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    Velour wrote:

    Miss Ernestine, oldest woman body builder in the world, and a Christian.
    Take that John Piper!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elsOwJ4IyyA

    You mean the guy hiding under his bed with his smartphone Twittering nonstop about Muscular Women(TM) and Unnatural Arousal?


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    okrapod wrote:

    I remember when there were schools and colleges and orphanages (way back when) and hospitals and a funded FMB and HMB…

    But spreading the Word of Calvin is much more important — and PREDESTINED!


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    Deebs, your entire article is based on the premise that there actually is such a thing as “biblical sentinels” in Piper’s world (or in real life, but that is an whole other issue). The problem is that there is no objective external standard for Piper. This is why he so flippantly holds numerous views that are clearly and frequently contradicted in the Bible. He has his own ideas, which he reads back in to the Bible (if you don’t believe me, read The Justification of God, which is the finest example of eisegesis I have yet read). Then he pretends that these are his sentinels. This is how abusive, authoritarian pastors work. Piper is the “functional authority”; in Piper’s world, Piper is God, and has been for quite some time.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    You mean the guy hiding under his bed with his smartphone Twittering nonstop about Muscular Women(TM)

    The same, H.U.G.


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    Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    Piper is the “functional authority” …

    … contributing to a dysfunctional movement called New Calvinism.


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    @ okrapod:
    Yes. It was not considered or structured as a denomination (although that language was used in some old articles) but as a cooperative to fund such things. People had wide differences on interpretations.


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    Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    in Piper’s world, Piper is God, and has been for quite some time.

    Yes, that would explain why Piper harps on the authority of men over women and the authority of pastors over everyone.

    And I think HUG’s description of someone tweeting under the bed about muscular women is another explanation.

    Piper is fearful. And fearful people crave control. Instead of perfect love casting out fear they make a self-preserving and self-exalting doctrine to try to take the edge off. Instead of preaching the cure for fear found in Jesus Christ, they are motivated by fear and preach fear. It is bondage with no truth incorporated in it to set people free.


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    Deb wrote:

    C.J. Mahaney and John Piper … How Christians can take these two seriously is beyond me.

    I was young and now am old. During my long Christian journey, I’ve seen a lot … a lot! But I’ve never witnessed anything as the level of interest from so many otherwise intelligent people to follow these New Calvinist characters. There’s something spiritual going on in this movement … and it ain’t Holy Spirit.


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    Max wrote:

    But I’ve never witnessed anything as the level of interest from so many otherwise intelligent people to follow these New Calvinist characters. There’s something spiritual going on in this movement … and it ain’t Holy Spirit.

    Preach it, brother Max!

    So true. And I’m so glad to be out of such a hateful movement. No Jesus, no Holy Spirit, no priesthood of all believers. The NeoCals search the Scriiptures and never find God.


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    Velour wrote:

    The NeoCals search the Scriiptures and never find God.

    The Berean Christians searched the Scriptures daily to see if what Paul was saying was true! Paul!! New Calvinist followers ‘really’ need to test what Piper, Mahaney, etc. are teaching, rather than so easily accepting it as truth. These guys are taking the church for a ride!


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    @ Max:

    So true.


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    The latest Facebook post from a godly woman who is being excommunicated from John Piper’s Bethlehem Baptist church for leaving her abusive husband of many decades. (John Piper retired from this church and moved from Minnesota to another state. But the sick theology lives on and its vile fruit.)

    **********
    Natalie Herbranson Klejwa
    5 hrs ·
    Last week I wrote about how elders at Bethlehem Baptist were publicly dishonest to several hundred people about their dealings with me the past two years. One of the members took notes and passed them along to me. I read them to my 16-yo daughter whose jaw promptly dropped. Why? Because it’s somewhat of a shock to realize that people who are spiritual leaders can so brazenly paint such a false picture of someone they don’t even know to so many people without shame or conviction.
    Because they murdered me publicly with lies, I would like to publicly come forward with the truth. How about one per week? Any more than that at one time would make you vomit. I’ll probably be criticized by a few “loving and caring Christians” for setting the record straight here on Facebook. They will try to shame me with sweet scoldings and well-pulled Bible verses. But here’s how I see it. They’ve already labeled me a “resistant, uncooperative” female, so why not give them more fodder to tear me apart with, if that’s what turns their crank? But when they do what they do best, I will remain genuinely bewildered that it’s fine for religious leaders to tell lies publicly, but it’s “sinful” to come out and tell the truth publicly. One of those religious mysteries, I guess.
    So my “informant” tells me that the elders shared a timeline with the congregation. This was the first item:
    “March 2015 – Several elders listened to Natalie’s story and wanted to believe Natalie.”
    This is partly true, but they left out a few important details, so let’s talk about it. The true part was that they listened to my story. It’s true. They really did. It was in January of 2015 rather than March – but maybe they made a mistake on the date? I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt there, since the timing doesn’t matter all that much.
    Here’s the problem. Wording it the way they did implies that they WANTED to believe what they later referred to as my “biased narrative,” but they didn’t or just couldn’t. They were thwarted in their noble desire. The way things are worded (spun) does a great deal to color things in the mind of a listener. Elders should be held responsible, when sharing the private lives of others in front of hundreds of people, to carefully share things in the most accurate way possible so as to avoid painting a false picture of reality. This wording tells a story of elders who are benevolent and desirous of moving in love toward me. But alas and alack, it just wasn’t possible, despite their highest and best efforts, to buy into my “biased narrative.”
    The truth is this: they DID believe me. And they told me so on multiple occasions. They said they “had my back.” They wouldn’t betray me ever again. I could trust them. Blah blah blah. Oi. Oi. Oi. Silly little female me. I believed THEM. Even after all that had happened to me with them prior to 2015 which is another long and sordid tale. I was a gullible soul prior to my hatching into an angry bird.
    In the spring of 2015 they had John Henderson, the Executive Director of the Center for Church Equipping, which is a training arm of the Association of Biblical Counselors, come and do a training for the elders at Bethlehem. Henderson read my story and told the elders and me TO MY FACE that I was, indeed, a survivor of marital abuse.
    That was his professional opinion.
    Jason Meyer, lead pastor at Bethlehem, heard my story in January of 2015 and then met with my ex two times and subsequently sent me an email in April of 2015 in which he stated (among other things):
    “…my greatest concern was that_______ was a reporter, not repentant. I see a dead, non-responsive heart. He doesn’t talk at all about apologizing out of an overflow of conviction from God. Repentance is when conviction is brought to bear on your heart so powerfully that you pursue people to make things right – first with God and then the people that you sinned against. I told him that he is just a reporter. He can repeat back what someone says or talk in vague terms about things that he could do better, but it sounds like a checklist. There is no depth of conviction or repentance or emotion of any kind….
    After the meeting, the five of us (Dave, Klaas, Kirsten, Kurt, and myself) were of one accord that there was no repentance – not even anything remotely resembling repentance. We really do not think that______ is a believer. It was good for Klaas and Dave to get a first hand look at how “flat line” ______ is and how clueless he acts about his sin and how he demonstrates an almost complete lack of ownership for the breakdown of his marriage.”
    That was Jason’s opinion.
    So let’s talk about opinions. Because I think my opinion, being the person who lived with my ex for almost 25 years, should count for something, even though I AM just a female. My opinion is that I was in an emotionally and spiritually destructive (abusive) marriage. And after inviting him to change or get out of Dodge, he chose, with his behaviors (words don’t count – did you think they did?) to get out of Dodge. So I divorced him. My opinion, after trying and trying and TRYING SOME MORE to keep our marriage together single handedly, is that I had to get myself to a place of safety and healing. That’s my opinion, and yes, it matters just as much as anyone else’s. Just because I don’t have a penis doesn’t mean my brain doesn’t work and I’m unworthy of being honored as a fellow human being, gentlemen. (That’s what my ex tried to drill into my head, too, interestingly enough.) So excommunicate me because I said the word “penis” on Facebook, but don’t excommunicate me because I divorced my husband for “no good reason.” Reality check: Nobody who stays with a man for 24 years and has nine kids lightly divorces him.
    So to sum up “kinda-sorta white lie #1”: the elders WANTED to believe Natalie? No, the truth is that the elders DID believe Natalie. So much so, that they promised her their full support for several months. I have many emails from them to back up what I’m writing here. It’s a provable lie. And don’t give me excuses for telling it. Because it’s the kind of “pretty little lie” that was used over and over on the night of October 30th to paint a false picture of me to hundreds of people. Lies like this are little rabbit turds at the bottom of a tall, icy-cold glass of lemonade. You wanna drink that? No thanks. The lies get much better. We’re just getting started. I’ll share another one next week. You can decide for yourselves what you think about the validity of my upcoming excommunication from Bethlehem Baptist Church in the Twin Cities.
    P.S. I’m happy to stop pulling out lemonade-flavored rabbit turds if the elders/pastors come forward and publicly apologize for each one while clearing my name with the congregation. But I’ll be fine if they don’t. Excommunication makes a great story for the grandkids.


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    Max wrote:

    Velour wrote:

    The NeoCals search the Scriiptures and never find God.

    The Berean Christians searched the Scriptures daily to see if what Paul was saying was true! Paul!! New Calvinist followers ‘really’ need to test what Piper, Mahaney, etc. are teaching, rather than so easily accepting it as truth. These guys are taking the church for a ride!

    these attempts to ‘control’ the Word through the neo-Cal filter reminds me of how Patterson was able to go into the 2000 BF&M and excise Our Lord as the ‘lens’ through which all Scripture was to be understood …. Patterson’s supporters said that it had to be done because ‘liberals’ had used Christ as lens to further their own arguments. So, with Our Lord in the way, and without the Royal Law as one of the great ‘controls’ on mis-use of the Scriptures by men;
    Patterson was able to ‘put women in their place’ and to treat Dr. Sheri Klouda as he did, all the while claiming to be ‘biblical’.

    So it was that Patterson opened the door to the neo-Cals and their man-made Christless treatment of people which they claim is ‘biblical’ by their OWN words.

    But now the neo-Cals are caught out also:
    they have taken the Word out of the context of THE Word (Our Lord), and they cannot handle the responsibility BECAUSE they are claiming to be ‘biblical’ without honoring Christ’s Royal Law as precedence ….. so we see these ‘leaders’ violating a corollary of the Law of Love: ‘do not do evil that good may come of it’


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    Law Prof wrote:

    don’t know if I’ve ever seen a pseudo Christian celeb who impressed me as cold and smug as Mr. Piper

    Piper’s positions on things certainly get weirder as time goes on. The problem with religious movements is that its leaders are always vying with each other to stay on top of the mountain, since Jesus is not on the throne in their ministries. Piper is generally thought of as King of New Calvinism. He is constantly under a tension to remain visible in that role and keep the new reformation moving forward, so he utters off-the-wall preaching and teaching designed to get and keep the attention of his followers. But after a while, weird merges into loony-tune crazy … Piper is there.


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    Christiane wrote:

    Patterson opened the door to the neo-Cals

    Paige Patterson was an architect of SBC’s Conservative Resurgence (CR). At one time, he was a staunch anti-Calvinist (even though he has always been a complementarian). I don’t think he fully realized that other SBC notables (e.g., Al Mohler) were going to use the CR as a platform for a “Calvinist Resurgence.” Patterson is now just going along for the ride and not opposing New Calvinism at all … he would rather be big game hunting in Africa these days … he is done but not quit yet.


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    Max wrote:

    Patterson is now just going along for the ride and not opposing New Calvinism at all … he would rather be big game hunting in Africa these days … he is done but not quit yet.

    where does all of his money come from? ….that is a very expensive ‘sport’ (the murder of innocent animals in the wild for ‘fun’);
    plus the funds for that ridiculous stained glass window of himself and Mrs. Patterson ?? He must have access to family money or at least some very generous friends.


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    Mara wrote:

    MidwesternEasterner wrote:
    The word “man” used to be gender-neutral in the English language,

    You and I know this. And much of the older generation. And this is what is wrong with letting young pups, with no understanding of history and language be leaders and ‘elders’. They haven’t lived long enough. They lack much in wisdom and understanding.

    This young dude was the youth pastor, teaching the youth. When my kids didn’t want to go anymore, I didn’t argue.

    I have no problem with the use of ‘man’ as in ‘mankind’ in say the KJV. It only becomes a problem when people don’t recognize that it includes all! If people in church ‘leadership’ positions didn’t learn this in seminary (if they went) and get too focused on the male/female split it can do great damage and they would be better off using a translation that is adapted for the modern ears.


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    I have a feeling that multitudes of young folks will look back on their journey in New Calvinism someday, gaze upon that picture of Piper & Mahaney at the top of this post, and wonder “What we were thinking?!”


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    Max wrote:

    “What we were thinking?!”

    Whoops, I meant to say “What were we thinking?!” … if I had been thinking, I would have caught that ;^)


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    @ Velour:

    Wow! This is one amazing woman! An inspiration to all!
    What the heck is wrong with Bethlehem Baptist. Why are they doing this to her? Are they afraid if they say it’s ok, there are a whole slew of wives ready to follow her example?


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    Mara wrote:

    So what is that picture of Piper with one hand over his head and the other looking like it is trying to clamp his mouth shut?

    That is his protective stance when he is forced to walk through a group of muscular women.


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    siteseer wrote:

    @ Velour:
    Wow! This is one amazing woman! An inspiration to all!
    What the heck is wrong with Bethlehem Baptist. Why are they doing this to her? Are they afraid if they say it’s ok, there are a whole slew of wives ready to follow her example?

    I guess she wasn’t willing to endure “abuse for a season” (John Piper’s infamous quote)…which in her case lasted more than 25-years.

    Natalie recently posted on Facebook that she’d been at Christian counselor Leslie Vernick’s conference and Natalie met many other Christian women who’d also been excommunicated from their churches for leaving abusive husbands/marriages.


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    @ siteseer:

    By the way, the situation of the Christian woman Natalie being excommunicated from Bethlehem Baptist church in Minnesota for leaving her abusive husband seems to mirror what happened to Karen at The Village Church in Texas (pastor Matt Chandler) for leaving her sexually predatory husband.

    What’s wrong with these churches, you asked?

    Their theology is wrong, their authoritarianism is wrong, their pretending to know-it-all and have ‘all of the answers’ is wrong and this is the ugly fruit from their bad theology.


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    Christiane wrote:

    Max wrote:
    Patterson is now just going along for the ride and not opposing New Calvinism at all … he would rather be big game hunting in Africa these days … he is done but not quit yet.

    where does all of his money come from? ….that is a very expensive ‘sport’ (the murder of innocent animals in the wild for ‘fun’);

    And to show how MANLY MAN he is.

    (Incidentally, it’s wannabes like this that gave big game hunting a bad name. In classic big game hunting, the hunter must always be in danger from the quarry and the quarry must have a good chance to escape. If this guy wants to be a REAL big game hunter, let’s see him go after Cape Buffalo on foot without sharpshooter backup. (Cape Buffalo is considered THE most dangerous game in Africa.)

    plus the funds for that ridiculous stained glass window of himself and Mrs. Patterson ?? He must have access to family money or at least some very generous friends.

    Or a hand deep in the Tithe till.
    Like those Televangelist private jets paid for by all those Social Security checks sent in to the ManaGAWD.
    “TITHE! TITHE! TITHE! TITHE! TITHE!”


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    Max wrote:

    Piper’s positions on things certainly get weirder as time goes on. The problem with religious movements is that its leaders are always vying with each other to stay on top of the mountain, since Jesus is not on the throne in their ministries

    “A cold Iron Throne
    Holds a boy barely grown;
    His crown based on lies —
    YOU WIN OR YOU DIE…”


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    Mara wrote:

    Yes, that would explain why Piper harps on the authority of men over women and the authority of pastors over everyone.

    And I think HUG’s description of someone tweeting under the bed about muscular women is another explanation.

    Piper is fearful. And fearful people crave control

    And since Piper is five-foot-four and built like a wet noodle, he sure can’t force dominance on other men (they’re all bigger than him). So he has to force dominance on weaker (non-muscular) women.


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    siteseer wrote:

    Why are they doing this to her? Are they afraid if they say it’s ok, there are a whole slew of wives ready to follow her example?

    It is very bizarre to me. You would think it would be no skin off their nose if someone left an abusive situation, and yet here we are.

    I think it is two things. One it is image. They don’t want too many divorces, because they value marriage above all.

    Two, it is control/pride. Control, because they want women in particular to follow their instructions! So we have Karen, who said ‘NOPE’ and now we have this. And a slew of other examples. And then we have pride that they can ‘fix’ it, or know when a husband is lying or not, or pride that they have created this wonderful redemption story.

    What is lacking utterly is care for the actual people involved.


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    Stan wrote:

    Before this post, in my reviews of aberrant religion, I’ve taken an interest in Robert Tilton lately. There’s a lot of old footage of him on YouTube.

    To offer an idea, he speaks with absolute conviction and a captivating emotional intensity. He got happy, sad, excited, and angry and accusatory within spans of minutes.

    Isn’t that a known manipulation tactic? Keep your followers constantly off-balance and one jump behind so they don’t have time to apply fridge logic and realize you’re using them?


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    siteseer wrote:

    @ Velour:
    Wow! This is one amazing woman! An inspiration to all!
    What the heck is wrong with Bethlehem Baptist. Why are they doing this to her? Are they afraid if they say it’s ok, there are a whole slew of wives ready to follow her example?

    By the way, Natalie has a soap making and personal care products business that she uses to support herself and her children.

    As a show of support, and a treat for myself, I order some of her products and now and again. http://www.applevalleynaturalsoap.com/


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    Max wrote:

    Patterson is now just going along for the ride and not opposing New Calvinism at all … he would rather be big game hunting in Africa these days … he is done but not quit yet.

    Compare PP to those who go to Africa (or other places) to share the Gospel (true gospel), render medical assistance, work to provide clean water, …………
    A life-long friend of mine (who admits that he is far from perfect, lived a very rough and tumble life as a teenager/young adult, dropped out of school in 9th grade, is a maintenance man at local factory) spent his summer vacay for the 4th year in a row in Central America, working on clean water supply lines for the locals and power generators for medical facilities.

    Which of these is a true minister/missionary/man of God?
    I have far more respect for my ole friend than I do for PP and his cronies.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Which of these is a true minister/missionary/man of God?

    “As you did it to the least of these, you did it to me.” Men of God are not measured by seminary degrees or religious position, but by faithfulness to the call of God on their lives and ministries. In the Kingdom of God, the first will be last and the last will be first.


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    Christiane wrote:

    where does all of his money come from? ….that is a very expensive ‘sport’

    I suspect that Southern Baptists are paying him a hefty salary as seminary president … and perhaps he is a good investor … there has been some speculation that the seminary is paying taxidermy bills for his big game harvest. Who knows for sure where his wealth came from?


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    spent his summer vacay for the 4th year in a row in Central America, working on clean water supply lines for the locals and power generators for medical facilities.

    This is most Christlike. I try to imagine what could be done if 10,000 men would spend a week doing similar work rather than attending a conference with Mahaney and his enablers.


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    Piper, Sproul (Snr), MacArthur, Driscol, Mahaney, Devers…how long is this list of deceivers? It includes the despicable ACBC and their “certified” counselors too. What else must happen in this world before the blinded open their eyes to the utter evil of Calvinism and all its branches? Just WHAT must happen (still)?


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    I knew John Piper endorsed CJ Mahaney. But I didn’t know he called Jesus “damned”. Whoa just whoa.


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    It take a sick mind to quote Job 1:19 after hearing about a natural disaster. What is wrong with John Piper? I do not even understand what he is trying to say here. Is he trying to say that God “enjoys” killing a few innocent babies here and there to remind people that he exists, so they will repent?

    If so, why bother sending Jesus? God can just appear in the sky and burn everyone with a 1,000C heat, until everyone kneel before his might and power.

    John Piper is pretty much saying God is twisted.


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    well it finally caught up with Piper, since 2006 I knew this was coming. The world doesn’t need any more protestant popes. He cannot even lead his wife out of the charismatic movement, any more than Packer can lead his wife out of anglo-Catholicism, or Colson’s wife out of the Roman Catholic teaching. 34 years ago I sat on the couch with my wife and asked her to do two things for 30 days. The first was not to simply read a verse, but to read the whole chapter to gain the perspective and context, and then to keep a note book to pray with, with the person who you were praying for, the date, the request, and then to leave room for God’s answer. This would also help when you hit those dry spots in your prayer life when it seems your prayers cannot rise above the ceiling. After doing this for 30 days my wife left the charismatic behind and never went back. Piper declined on having me come aboard as a Pastor of Adult discipleship holding this view. Evidently I was unable to challenge anyone to grow if it offended him.