Pete Wilson and Cross Point Church: Until There is Truth, Lessons Will Not Be Learned

“The truth.” Dumbledore sighed. “It is a beautiful and terrible thing, and should therefore be treated with great caution.” ― J.K. Rowling link

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Pray for Cross Point Church

Question: What did the average Cross Point person know about Pete Wilson?

  • How many people in Nashville, along with the rest of the world, have heard about the successes of Cross Point Church and its beloved, former pastor, Pete Wilson?
  • How many people were asked by friends to attend this very cool church to learn about the Jesus?
  • How many books did Pete Wilson write and sell that extolled the virtues of Cross Point Church?
  • How many church members were asked to give their hard earned money to support the ministry of this church?
  • How many folks knew how much money Pete Wilson was making as head pastor?
  • How many people thought their pastor and church was a cut above other churches in town or even in the United States?
  • How many couples wanted to have a marriage just like Pete Wilson and his now separated wife……..What?

Let me back up. It is time to open up the closed doors of Cross Point Church and tell more of the story. The Gospel demands it, the truth demands it and the dedicated members of this church and those who have contributed money and time to the ministry, deserve it.

Today’s post is based on the reports of reliable sources who have reasons for their anonymity. Also, TWW received some emails from folks alluding to the background situation at Cross Point church.

Accountability: The folks who contribute time and money should have it. 

The pastor and the staff should be accountable to the members. However, the history of the ARC, of which Cross Point is a member, appears to have a history of limiting knowledge about finances and difficult issues to a tight knit little group of pastor overseers. They take care of each other very well when it comes to determining their pay scale and what to do when something untoward happens with one of their own.

It is the philosophy of TWW that any church that demands and seeks out publicity when things are looking good, need to be willing to take the hits publicly when things go bad. If you play in the public eye, you pay in the public eye. (A TWW maxim.)

Truth, not baloney, is at the base of the Gospel.

TWW posted Pete Wilson Is So Exhausted and Burned Out That He Became the President of the A Group.  We noted that the evangelical social media world was abuzz with sympathetic posts about burned out and exhausted pastors. I doubted Cross Point’s narrative from the outset. In fact, it made me a little mad. Poor Pete, extremely well compensated and universally admired by his many followers, was dog tired and ready to drop. Here is who I thought about.

  • The single mother who is working two jobs to support her children.
  • The doctor on the mission field living in difficult circumstances with hundreds of people waiting to see her.
  • ​The parents of severely handicapped children who needs daily, exhaustive care yet they have other children and can barely support their house.
  • The average Joe who busts his tush to support his family and can barely keep the lights on.

But, what if burnout wasn’t the truth? What if it was merely the excuse because Pete Wilson or CP’s leaders or the Arc’s Overseers demanded it? What if they don’t truly get the Gospel message that ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God? What if they are hiding the truth to look good to the world? The world we Christians are so quick to condemn for being sinful?

Understanding that all pastors are sinners is vital to understanding the Gospel.

Does it upset you when I say that your pastor is a sinner? If so, you need to figure out why. Your pastor is no different than any person in the pew. He may preach a good sermon, lead the church to do great things, be the nicest guy you have ever met but he is still a sinner. He can lie, cheat on his wife, and manipulate people just like anyone else. That is why he needs close accountability by those who are not *yes* men. But most church leaders only pick the yes men and that is harmful to the church.

What follows does not mean that Pete Wilson hasn’t done some wonderful things. It doesn’t mean that everything he has preached is wrong. All it means is that we must become wise and set our baloney filters in high.

Also, we must always question our baloney filters since we, too, are sinners. That is why TWW asks lots of questions before writing our posts. I have been thinking about this story for over the past week.

We cannot address our problems with pastors, leaders and churches if we do not know what the root issues involve.

If the root cause of Pete Wilson’s departure was not burnout then the church community is spinning its wheels addressing pastors and burnout. TWW has approached folks within 9Marks and The Village Church to sort out what really happened, not what was said to have happened. Why did 9Marks punish Todd Wilhelm when he refused to remain in a church that actively sponsored books by CJ Mahaney? Why did none of the elders at The Village Church speak out against the abusive behavior directed towards Karen Hinkley. Unfortunately, our questions will not be answered by either entity. This means that change will not happen in the long run since no one fully understands what happened.

The basic story behind the public story: I am getting so tired of this ole c**p.

This is what one of my sources said. “I am getting so tired of this ole c**p” and they had good reason to say this as you will see in the following allegations. 

1/10/17 Update

Due to the recent revelation that Brandi Wilson has filed for divorce from Pete Wilson, we have decided that it is no longer necessary to cause further turmoil . We have redacted this part of the post which deals with allegations including those that the Wilson marriage was on the rocks when Pete resigned. We were not asked to do this by anyone. We do it out of compassion for the family during this difficult time.

Comments

Pete Wilson and Cross Point Church: Until There is Truth, Lessons Will Not Be Learned — 1,364 Comments

  1. Somehow I don’t think this “Pete Wilson” is the former Governor of California.

  2. Is that pic at the top supposed to be a church?
    It looks more like one of the industrial buildings around where I work, but bigger.

  3. Excellent blog & I appreciate you doing your due diligence. Nothing is speculated beyond what is now factual. Thanks to you Dee, this deceptive lip service from church leaders is becoming easier to spot, and corrupt, abusive pastors are being held to account, even if it’s only in the court of public opinion. I hope & pray the members at Cross Point will wise up & see that the wool was pulled over their eyes.

  4. FWIW, I put this together while waiting for the OP to post:
    Confusing parts of Wilson’s resignation statement. My comments in (parentheses). Statements after getting new job in “quotes”. .
    *************
    And it’s (everyone’s welcome because nobody’s perfect) been my priority and what I’ve been focused on for the past 14 years: creating a community like that. In the meantime, I haven’t prioritized some other things that were equally as important.(What things are those? The audience is left to speculate. He did NOT say the following–until new job:)
    “I really wanted to find something that I could leverage the past 20 years worth of experience in ministry and take all the lessons of things that I did right, of things that I did wrong and really be able to help other churches and ministries be able to navigate what I think can sometimes be tricky waters”
    (From the past years of unnamed misplaced priorities– to the past years he wanted to leverage in new job.)
    Leaders who lead on empty don’t lead well. (Right now I’m a poor leader.) For some time, I’ve been leading on empty.
     (So one would presume he needs to fill his tank with some un-lead-ed before he can lead others again down the highway of life–otherwise he’ll run out of gas again. What he did NOT say– until new job:)
    “So, I have been trying to digest all of the things that God has been putting on my heart and incorporate them into this new chapter in my life that is about to begin. Blank chapters can be scary. Especially when your prior chapters have been full of amazing and unexplained moments of being used by God in ways you could have never imagined.” (He’s so full he has spiritual indigestion.)
    I think the best thing for Cross Point is for me to step aside. And so I’m resigning… (It’s for your own good!! And NOT until new job:)
    “- I love starting things and I have a true entrepreneurial spirit…
    – I love caring for and protecting the hearts of other pastors…
    – I want to invest my time in something that is going to make a difference in this world.”
    And now, more than ever before—I really need your prayers and I need your support. (I’m really struggling) We’ve said that this is a church where it’s okay to not be okay, and I’m not okay. (I have some issues I need to work on) I’m tired. (I need a longer break than a sabbatical.) And I’m broken (I might need some therapy) and I just need some rest. (You guys have just worn me out. Gimme a break already, will you! But, until new job, NOT:)
    “Like many of you, I find myself in a season I didn’t expect. There was a part of me that thought I’d be at Cross Point forever. But God had different plans, and I’m fully embracing those, and actually crazy excited about the future. When you place your life in God’s hands, it’s amazing how often what feels like an ending is actually a beginning.”
    IHTIH

  5. I am amazed and dismayed that so many Christian “leaders” tell lies so often and so boldly. What are they thinking? Where is Jesus in that?

    You’re right, if these leaders seek publicity when things are going well in their ministries, they cannot expect silence and secrecy when things are not going well.

    Thank you for continuing to pressure the church and its leaders to tell the truth and do the right thing.

  6. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Is that pic at the top supposed to be a church?
    It looks more like one of the industrial buildings around where I work, but bigger.

    It was a vacant building that CP acquired. Believe me, this angle was the best they could get for a photo. It is not a pretty area – just a few yards from the Cumberland River, lots of semi-trailers and river barge cargo crates next door!

  7. So incredibly disappointed. I stand corrected, burn out is apparently not a real thing.

    Also, why on earth do these people think the internet will not find them out and that the best thing they could do is come clean from the beginning?

  8. I was reading Wilson’s Facebook this weekend looking for clues. Noticed the female admirer who was so happy to meet him. Noticed all the pics of kids while his wife had gone the way of Stalin’s comrades and vanished. Noticed he went silent just after his wife did, then thanking the church and garnering sympathy, then— as of today she never existed, and it’s back to business as usual! Noticed how she also just vanished from her conference — starting tomorrow, no? What will her friends tell the women leaders? Also searched web for any results of Wilson with “scandal” “separation” “divorce” “affair” and they’ve done a good job hiding this– until now. Thanks Deebs!
    I’m going to stop now–I got worked up over this schmuck after reading first on “expastors” how wonderfully he was handling his sad sad burnout. Then got more upset reading the “churchleaders” singing the praises of him and his fellow burnout victim Noble. Those sons of b-guns had the nerve to blast some respectfully concerned or critical commenters. I feel better now.

  9. I go to Crosspoint. I just found out that (ed. note: name of female staffer) resigned. And only 4 or 5 days after Pete? That’s not random… and yeah, we NEVER hear about pastors who leave… ever… they just leave and never hear anything…

  10. Oh– one last thing– I almost forgot– did he tell his BFF the full story before he hired him?

  11. @ Gerald:
    I sure hope that you are thinking about withholding your contributions until they level with you all. You deserve to know the truth.

  12. I attend, serve and give at Cross Point. It is my home church. I am so thankful that Pete obeyed God’s calling on his life to start this church and the amazing things God has done through it. I am aware that Pete is just a man and just as much a sinner as you and I. However, I don’t see the benefit in spreading rumors, even if your allegations may be somewhat true. The best thing we can do as Christians is pray for the health of Pete and his family and for the local church. I believe that is what Jesus would do. But like I said we are all sinners and nobody’s perfect. I am so happy to be a part of a church that is reaching the lost and making a difference in the world no matter how broken we are. I love my church!

  13. I wonder what all of this mega mania looks like from God’s point of view? When it finally all gets sifted out, I wonder what remains? I don’t know, I’m just asking.

  14. I feel sad for his wife.

    There is something SO disfunctional in neo-Cal world that inspires greed and massive male ego among the leaders

    and the basic ‘steath’ thing is not just reserved to a ‘takeover’ of an SBC church either, it also shows up in a neo-Cal operation (I won’t call it a ‘church’) with secrecy about money and sin) ….. I don’t think people can turn off the dishonestly displayed in the ‘stealth’ thing when they want to ….. I think they become a slave to this dishonesty and to their over-active male egos. If there was ever ANY Christian faith in these men, they certainly did overlook the command not to do evil that good may come. Because it didn’t come. Evil propagates evil.

    This man’s life is beyond sad. If he has betrayed his wife, I hope the pain he has caused her will open his eyes to how destructive the male-headship thing can be when it relegates women to being objects instead of human persons.

  15. Dave A A wrote:

    Then got more upset reading the “churchleaders” singing the praises of him and his fellow burnout victim Noble.

    CORRECTION: “Churchleaders” only did the sympathy thing, like “expastors”. The one who lumped Pete in with Perry and blasted the commenters was Care Nieuwhof. My apologies to the churchleaders guys. This is why I shouldn’t type while upset or call names. http://careynieuwhof.com/2016/09/some-thoughts-about-the-recent-exit-of-two-megachurch-pastors/

  16. Stephen W wrote:

    But like I said we are all sinners and nobody’s perfect. I am so happy to be a part of a church that is reaching the lost and making a difference in the world no matter how broken we are. I love my church!

    I’m glad you love your church and I agree that we’re all sinners, but isn’t honesty part of the Christian life as well? Where does truthfulness come in? If the pastor and leaders were dishonest about this, what else are they being dishonest about? Is that really the Christian life? To keep up appearances and brush the secrets under the rug? If we’re all sinners, why can’t the big people admit it like we little people do?

  17. siteseer wrote:

    I wonder what all of this mega mania looks like from God’s point of view? When it finally all gets sifted out, I wonder what remains? I don’t know, I’m just asking.

    He has the best perspective on all of this mess when you think about it. He has seen it from the Cross.

  18. Stephen W wrote:

    I love my church!

    And Stephen, the Jesus I know, the One of the Bible, the One Who spoke of those things whispered in the inner rooms being shouted from rooftops, would definitely not suggest that we just pray, He’d suggest that we pray and tell the absolute truth.

    You love your church? I think maybe you ought to love Jesus.

  19. @ Stephen W:
    Everybody at CP loves Pete, Stephen. But pull your head out of your ass and stop pretending everything is orgasms and butterflies… sheesh, you don’t more Christian talking like that, you sound dumb.

  20. Stephen W wrote:

    However, I don’t see the benefit in spreading rumors, even if your allegations may be somewhat true.

    Did you read the post? The benefit is the truth. The benefit is to not spread lies. The benefit is to understand the problems so that changes can be made. The benefit is learning lessons so this blog does not have to write post after post about pastors and affairs. The benefit is that you would have a church that dealt with the problem instead of pretending it doesn’t exist.

    Be careful when you use the excuse that we are all sinners like Pete. Yes, we are all sinners but not everyone cheats on his wife, allegedly hits on female staffers and separates from his wife. Do you? If so, get help unlike your former pastor who let things get to this state.

    You are proposing living in a church that lies to the members of the church in order to what? Protect something? Jesus didn’t just pray for sinners. He told them to go and sin no more. Did any of you in the church say that to Pete? Or did you just sit back and let things happen because he is such a good guy? Do you give a darn about other members who have contacted this blog feeling hurt and let down by the church?

    Jesus had a real thing about the Pharisees (pastors) of that day. He called many of them snakes and vipers. If you had a pastor who was behaving in a sinful manner with female staffers then you had a wolf for a pastor. He should be ashamed of himself. He should have apologized to the church for doing what he did.

    And you should demand the truth and stop dealing in rumors yourself. Telling the world he was burnt out was a downright lie but it makes you look better, doesn’t it?

    Loving your church means dealing with the hard issues in a truthful manner.

  21. Kemi wrote:

    burn out is apparently not a real thing

    I think while speculating on another I said burnout for pastors apparently = sex with a parishioner.

    I hate being right.

    Also, vague goodbyes are generally hiding something.

  22. Law Prof wrote:

    You love your church? I think maybe you ought to love Jesus.

    I m fearful that this is exactly the problem with many people in churches. They are taught to follow the institution and the hipster pastor, not Jesus.

  23. @ Stephen W:
    Everybody at CP loves Pete, Stephen. But pull your head out of your ass and stop pretending everything is orgasms and butterflies… sheesh, you don’t SOUND more Christian talking like that, you sound dumb.

  24. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Is that pic at the top supposed to be a church?
    It looks more like one of the industrial buildings around where I work, but bigger.

    It’s a former factory, a vacume cleaner factory, I believe. The former builing was bought from an aging church and had a much more homey feel to it, plus an amzing person who did a great job decorating the stage according to certain themes. All that went away with the move to the new building, which is very stark.

  25. Stephen W wrote:

    even if your allegations may be somewhat true

    ‘somewhat’?

    True is true. Lies are lies, even if they are pretty ones. Yes, it sucks that so many pastors are caught out like this, but is the answer keeping secrets? I doubt it.

  26. @ Julie Anne:
    I have to admit that Pete almost looks like Tullian in that weird “I am trying to hard to look like a hipster but I’m really a cad” sort of way.

  27. Nancy2 wrote:

    It was a vacant building that CP acquired. Believe me, this angle was the best they could get for a photo. It is not a pretty area – just a few yards from the Cumberland River, lots of semi-trailers and river barge cargo crates next door

    It’s a few blocks from the Titans stadium (traffic nightmare!)

  28. Nancy2 wrote:

    It was a vacant building that CP acquired. Believe me, this angle was the best they could get for a photo. It is not a pretty area – just a few yards from the Cumberland River, lots of semi-trailers and river barge cargo crates next door!

    AKA typical riverfront industrial area.

  29. Assuming the allegations are true…which it seems likely from what Dee reports here…it is downright sickening. THESE are the sort of pastors ministries/denominations OUGHT to be defrocking and baring from further pastoral power. The dude sounds like a predator.

  30. @ Stephen W:

    The other thing, Stephen, is that they misrepresented sin as the pastor just being worn out, burned out. This put guilt on the congregation. Maybe they’ve been expecting too much? Maybe they haven’t been taking good enough care of pastor? Maybe they need to give more, do more, carry a heavier load. That message received a lot of press in the Christian world as a whole, to shame believers for not doing enough for their pastors. Most believers, like you, love their churches, trust their leaders and will give of themselves until it hurts, to support them. But now we see that was not the real problem at all. Is that fair? Is that truthful? Is that Christlike?

    And I’m not even getting to the women who were used and God only knows what this has done to their relationships with Him, or the people who were working in the toxic atmosphere at the top who have disappeared. Where are they? How are they faring spiritually? Will anyone care about these people?

  31. Christiane wrote:

    There is something SO disfunctional in neo-Cal world that inspires greed and massive male ego among the leaders

    Cross Point is non-denominational, but it’s not neo-cal, thank heavens or I’d be out the door.

  32. Stephen W wrote:

    But like I said we are all sinners and nobody’s perfect.

    Please NEVER use this as an ‘excuse’ for any person. We cannot ‘minimize’ sin because ‘everybody does it’; it doesn’t work that way.

    Take a look at this, and think about it for a while:

    “This thought should keep us humble. We are sinners, but we do not know how great. He alone knows Who died for our sins.”
    (John Henry Newman)

  33. Christiane wrote:

    I feel sad for his wife.

    There is something SO disfunctional in neo-Cal world that inspires greed and massive male ego among the leaders

    And part of that greed and massive male ego is sexual indulgence – As Many Women As Possible.
    Herd Bull/Alpha Male building his exclusive Harem.

  34. Gerald wrote:

    and yeah, we NEVER hear about pastors who leave… ever… they just leave and never hear anything…

    They just vanish into the Night and Fog.

  35. Patriciamc wrote:

    It’s a former factory, a vacume cleaner factory

    For real? That’s funny.

    dee wrote:

    @ Julie Anne:
    I have to admit that Pete almost looks like Tullian in that weird “I am trying to hard to look like a hipster but I’m really a cad” sort of way.

    I don’t know if you watched the mindy project, but she had this ‘pastor’ boyfriend, and there is a whole scene in church where he’s all ‘i want to rap about god for a minute’. That reminds me of these guys.

  36. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Is that pic at the top supposed to be a church?
    It looks more like one of the industrial buildings around where I work, but bigger.

    Yes, it is supposed to be a church. Lots of churches are in office parks or “light industrial” today. Here’s an article called “Megachurches: photographing America’s drab new cathedrals” from the UK Guardian:

    https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2016/may/01/megachurches-christianity-lisa-anne-auerbach-photography-america

  37. Lea wrote:

    I don’t know if you watched the mindy project, but she had this ‘pastor’ boyfriend, and there is a whole scene in church where he’s all ‘i want to rap about god for a minute’. That reminds me of these guys.

    I was thinking of the Dire Straits song “Money for Nothing”. Sting on vocals.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyVDIOnieAg

  38. dee wrote:

    Gerald

    haven’t tithed to a church in years… I give my money to the causes I believe in, value…

  39. @ siteseer:
    I totally agree with what you are saying. Honesty is a huge part of the way we are called to live as Christians. However, who are we to assume that the leaders of Cross Point really knew or know the truth even now. Are there actual facts or just speculation? Without having facts, is it really a good idea to publicly spread rumors? Would that have been better? Would that have been biblical?

  40. Stephen W wrote:

    Would that have been biblical?

    Wouldn’t the *Biblical* thing to have done would have been to confront him before all instead of issuing a weasel statement that caused speculation?

  41. Stephen W wrote:

    I totally agree with what you are saying. Honesty is a huge part of the way we are called to live as Christians. However, who are we to assume that the leaders of Cross Point really knew or know the truth even now.

    Are there actual facts or just speculation?

    Without having facts, is it really a good idea to publicly spread rumors? Would that have been better? Would that have been biblical?

    Yours is kind of a weird post because the first time Deb and Dee did a post about this guy, some of the other church members showed up to say “this is all speculation, speculation, speculation.”

    Now, we have a second post, via eye witnesses who contacted Dee privately, confirming some things went on there, and some of the members from this church are still saying, “speculation, speculation, speculation”.

    Is it a moving of the goal posts things – first it was “speculation, speculation, speculation” about any wrong-doing by the pastor, now it’s,
    “Okay, so he was tom catting around, BUT,can you really say that associate pastor John Doe really knew the whole time or speculation, speculation, speculation?”

  42. Patriciamc wrote:

    It’s a few blocks from the Titans stadium (traffic nightmare!)

    I’ve been stuck in some nasty traffic jams in Nashville but I can’t imagine trying to get to and from that church and via I-65N/I-24W on a Titans’ home game Sunday afternoon or night! …….. Uhm, with my 5-speed manual transmission???? No, thank you!

  43. Here’s an example of one of the articles that the situation inspired:

    http://www.tennessean.com/story/news/religion/2016/09/18/what-resignation-cross-points-pete-wilson-says-pastor-burnout/90311180/

    The focus of the article is the pitfalls that pastors face. It talks about how difficult and complex the job is. It lists the reasons most pastors leave the pastorate- in giving so much for the good of the church, the pastor loses sight of taking care of himself. Nowhere in this article does it mention pastors being caught in sexual predation, abusing the people under them, misusing money, or any other character flaws. It leaves the weight and guilt on the parishioners for being so difficult to lead, for not taking better care of their pastors. Nowhere does it ever mention that maybe some men go into the pastorate because it is like crack to a sociopath.

    We all have actors that we like. We follow them, enjoy their movies, identify with their characters. We know (hopefully) they are playing roles and are not actually the person they are playing, but sometimes the role can become bigger than the actual person. How many people call Sylvester Stallone, Rocky, for example.

    I’m afraid many pastors are really actors. They go onstage and play a role. Some of them play very good roles! They are inspiring characters! They move us, they motivate us. Their scripts contain a lot of good information and truths. But the fact is, they are not really that image they play in front of the church. They go home and kick off their shoes and live a real life that we may know very little or nothing about. This can be just as true of the holy man in dignified robe as it is of the cool hipster pastor. Things are not always as they seem.

    The question is, what happens when you find out that the person isn’t the image you thought he was? What does this do to your faith? What does it do to your perception of the church?

  44. I defended Pete in the original post. I guess my point was that the first post had a lot of opinion and speculation and no proof, and I would have preferred to have waited until there was proof. You do have proof now, so I will say that you were right. I do think that Pete does have a lot of talent as a minister/speaker and if all these allegations are true, and it looks like they are, then he has betrayed this God-given talent (and wife, children, staff, etc.). I’ve never thought, though, that Pete was not a sinner; he’s just a guy with a talent. Now, that said, yes, I had noticed the turnover, and have noticed it for some time. I had noticed two women with (I don’t want to get too specific here) titles that you don’t normally see in many churches (titles that pleased me), but then those women vanished (I don’t want to get specific about the time). I’m not alleging anything in case someone figures out whom I’m talking about. Their leaving could be a coincidence; I simply don’t know. Others have left too, so I really don’t know who did what with whom. I do know that the staff has grown and has resulted in some strange titles. When I looked at the staff list a couple of weeks ago, I immediately wondered if all those people were really necessary. Yes, Jenni Catron was great, and I hope she and her husband find their way back to Nashville.

    I can see how the financial problems arose. We went from an 800 seat building, bursting at the seams, to an 1600 seat (thereabouts) that started to fill up. There’s a lot of outreach, more than any other church I’ve ever been to, and that’s great, but it does cost money. Cross Point has never ridden the congregation hard about donating more and more money. That’s good too, but again, the outreach must be funded, so it looks like the church “bit off more than it could chew.”

    Cross Point became a success story with a lot of acclaim, at least in our area, and attracted some deep pockets. I can see how that plus the growth could cause a good case of ego-itis (not an excuse, though). So, speaking as an every-day parishioner, I can say that I’ve had only a positive experience. I’ve been a member of two amazing small groups, groups that have not been controlled by the church, unlike some we’ve heard about on this blog. In fact, the church is not a neo-cal, anti-women, controlling church, and I hope it stays that way. The theology has been very correct, correct on all the important stuff (Apostles Creed issues, as I call them). No, nothing on demons or anything else like that, and certainly no he-man/cave man theology crap. My one complaint has been that it’s very hippster focused, very focused on people in their 20s and 30s. There are a lot of older people there, but older people are very rarely shown in the videos, in print, on the website, etc. I hope that changes in the future because, as I say, old age is not a sin!

    For the time being, I’ll stick with Cross Point and see what happens, even though I do wonder if the elders’ statement was totally honest. Frankly, it’s not looking that way. There are good people as Cross Point, and I don’t want them to be hurt. There’s also the gospel itself. I don’t want Cross Point to become another hypocritical church.

    From here on out, I’m probably going to limit my comments (wellllll, I’ll try) because since I’m currently attending Cross Point, I don’t want to slide into gossiping about the church and its people.

  45. Nancy2 wrote:

    I’ve been stuck in some nasty traffic jams in Nashville but I can’t imagine trying to get to and from that church and via I-65N/I-24W on a Titans’ home game Sunday afternoon or night! …….. Uhm, with my 5-speed manual transmission???? No, thank you!

    I actually missed Pete’s resignation because I was stuck in traffic! There was a noon game that day, so I just turned around and went to a coffee shop. Yes, Nashvegas has out-grown it’s infrastructure!

  46. siteseer wrote:

    The question is, what happens when you find out that the person isn’t the image you thought he was? What does this do to your faith? What does it do to your perception of the church?

    Sometimes it’s as Brooks and Dunn sang:
    I know you’ve got your own version of the truth
    There’s only three things left now I can do
    Deny, deny, deny

  47. Stephen W wrote:

    However, who are we to assume that the leaders of Cross Point really knew or know the truth even now. Are there actual facts or just speculation?

    The Deebs are responsible journalists. They check out the information they write about.

    It syncs with my life experience. When you’ve seen something once, you recognize the signs. The vague statements, the happenings that are at odds with the statements… Human nature is fairly predictable. The old saying, “where there’s smoke, there’s fire,” was coined for a reason.

  48. Patriciamc wrote:

    I actually missed Pete’s resignation because I was stuck in traffic!

    Perhaps providential, as there may have been a couple things he forgot to mention.

  49. Stephen W wrote:

    I attend, serve and give at Cross Point. It is my home church. I am so thankful that Pete obeyed God’s calling on his life to start this church and the amazing things God has done through it.

    Me too, but now, this is in danger, and that makes me mad. Pete did the right thing at the time, then went off course. What I’m now scared of is that once this breaks in the church community overall (give it a couple of days) is that in a few months, we’ll get the usual statement of God’s grace and forgiveness complete with the requisite book deal.

  50. dee wrote:

    Law Prof wrote:

    You love your church? I think maybe you ought to love Jesus.

    I m fearful that this is exactly the problem with many people in churches. They are taught to follow the institution and the hipster pastor, not Jesus.

    When folliwing the “church” takes precedence over following Jesus then this is exactly the type of problem that happens. This is how cults operate.

  51. Dave A A wrote:

    Perhaps providential, as there may have been a couple things he forgot to mention.

    Nah. That’s just Nashville.
    If there’s anything big going on in town, you have to allow at least an extra 30 min drive time. If there’s a wreck on the interstate, and there’s always lots of wrecks in Metro Nashville/Davidson county …… forget it.

  52. @ Stephen W:
    Stephen, as they say in AA, you have a “wet brain”. Stop drinking the Kool-Aid they have been giving you every week. Things will look a lot different when you are sober.

  53. Is there a guideline for what the outside of a church should look like? I know there is for the “inside”. Interesting view point. Seems possibly as misguided as this article claims leaders are. Sad. @ Nancy2:

  54. Patriciamc wrote:

    Me too, but now, this is in danger, and that makes me mad. Pete did the right thing at the time, then went off course. What I’m now scared of is that once this breaks in the church community overall (give it a couple of days) is that in a few months, we’ll get the usual statement of God’s

    From what I’ve read about Pete Wilson, he’s big on “vision casting”, where the lead pastor controls the church. Given that, I have wondered if the church will be able to survive in it’s current state. No “vision caster” means no goals or directions for the church.

  55. Daisy wrote:

    Yours is kind of a weird post because the first time Deb and Dee did a post about this guy, some of the other church members showed up to say “this is all speculation, speculation, speculation.”

    Yes Daisy, I did say that, and looking back, I would say that again in the absence of evidence. I have a comment now that’s waiting to be posted in which I say that Dee and Deb were right. Give the people who attend Cross Point some grace. It’s a good church with good people, and that’s all been betrayed by someone we admired. Surely you can see how this situation is difficult and shocking for the church attendees.

  56. Three decades I was in a church that had a pastor who was known for multiple affairs by leadership, but not by the average member. It finally blew up one day, the church split, and it has never, after all these years, regained its place of influence in the city where it is located. On top of that, the pastor was allowed to go on to another church, where the same thing happened again. At least that church had the courage to call his bluff and make sure that his pastoring days were over.
    Moral of the story: Damaged goods cause damage elsewhere. That’s why churches need to be truthful when they announce that a pastor is leaving. They don’t always need to be graphic about it, but “gross moral failure” usually says it all.

  57. Looks like the cult of the head pastor has struck again.

    I’d note that it’s not just this particular instance, but it’s *all over the place.* Think of all the big churches you know of–for the most part, they’re centered in a particular guy as the leader. Or gal, for example, the story of Aimee Semple McPherson comes to mind here. It doesn’t have to involve covering up possible inappropriate sexual behavior. Simple power will corrupt.

    Take, for example, Mark Driscoll. There’s NEVER been a suggestion that Driscoll has acted inappropriately with a woman not his wife, but he managed to implode over a dozen churches in five states when he refused to sit down at the instructions of his elders. He walked away and now he’s in Scottsdale, where his followers talk about how they’re all sinners and he’s a sinner and everything he says that doesn’t sound good can be excused with “Oh, he’s a sinner,” even if that includes bullying his wife.

    It’s not just Driscoll, either. I know nothing about the closest mega near to me, except for the griping when it spent million$ of dollars on a satellite campus in another part of the southeast Valley. The second closest mega is a completely family-run operation. Dad and mom are pastors, the sons are pastors. There’s been a lot of complaints over time, but nothing’s stuck. Not even when it was discovered that the head pastor, who had put himself forward as some sort of financial whiz, had actually filed for bankruptcy. That church has added more services and gotten bigger since that came out. (They were, in fact, the church that was in the building Driscoll is in now, but vacated it for a Marriott ballroom about a mile away where they hold two services on a Sunday.) I took a look at their website, they’ve updated it recently and the first item one sees in the top bar, next to the name of the church is GIVE. Then you get I’m new, About, Bulletin, etc. But GIVE is first. Says volumes to me.

    And then there’s the local church which became a franchise of Hillsong about eight months ago. It’s a multisite, and the location nearest to me has just expanded to two services (in addition to the three services in Scottsdale and two services in downtown Phoenix). Did I mention that I went there at the end of February to see how many seats the auditorium could hold? I forgot my earplugs. I didn’t think I would need earplugs at a church. It was SO LOUD. And so uninspired and tuneless, despite all the singing. I would have had a better time at a black metal concert.

    But don’t listen to me, I’m the person who lost her cool on the sidewalk outside wannabe megachurch pastor Mark Driscoll’s property. But can we get rid of the cult of the senior pastor? *crawls back under rock*

  58. Dee Holmes (fka mirele) wrote:

    I’m the person who lost her cool on the sidewalk outside wannabe megachurch pastor Mark Driscoll’s property. But can we get rid of the cult of the senior pastor? *crawls back under rock*

    Oh Mirele we are so proud of you. I am shocked you didn’t lose your cool on one of those really hot days when you were out there.

    So you lost ‘your cool’ because children were being manipulated on behalf of some really abusive dude (not a “pastor” in the true sense of the word). Wouldn’t those kidlets be in trouble if they cheated on their homework or a school exam? Yet their “pastor” can use $225,000 of church money to buy his way on to the New York Times and fake sales via Resultsource? He can lie about people and fire them with impunity, cost them their incomes and all of their friendships via excommunications and shunnings?

    Your anger was righteous anger. Even Jesus used rough language. “Brood of vipers”. “White-washed tombs.”

    It’s ok. Go back out there again.

  59. Linn wrote:

    Moral of the story: Damaged goods cause damage elsewhere. That’s why churches need to be truthful when they announce that a pastor is leaving. They don’t always need to be graphic about it, but “gross moral failure” usually says it all.

    So true, Linn.

    Excellent comment.

  60. “Exhausted and depressed” seems like the standard excuse that gets trotted out whenever there is improper sexual behavior by pastors. Jack “Polished Shaft” Schaap said the same thing when his (much worse) scandal broke.

    Is there really a correlation between the two? Somehow I doubt it. I remember reading that depression actually weakens your sex drive (and, in men, it commonly causes impotence).

  61. Daisy wrote:

    first it was “speculation, speculation, speculation”

    Is it the old “you don’t have all the facts” silencing ploy? The question I have for members at Cross Point, do the staff turnovers and pastor resignation imply significant problems. Are they sufficiently worthy that truthful explanations should be expected? Please ask and report back.

    Any of us should feel free to question leaders of our church, expect honest answers, and receive no reprisal for that questioning. If we are not able to safely ask important questions, then it is a hostile environment and we should exit. If, on the other hand someone thinks it is unnecessary to question, that trust in leaders is all important, then they are at hazard themselves and potentially contributing to it for others.

  62. Nancy2 wrote:

    From what I’ve read about Pete Wilson, he’s big on “vision casting”, where the lead pastor controls the church. Given that, I have wondered if the church will be able to survive in it’s current state. No “vision caster” means no goals or directions for the church.

    This was actually something I wondered about when I left my denominational church for CP. In denominations like the Methodist church, there’s a brand/culture that’s not dependent on one person, plus there’s a structure beyond the local church that can step in when necessary.

  63. Stephen W wrote:

    But like I said we are all sinners and nobody’s perfect.

    Its amazing to me, however, how many of us manage to go thru life without being at the center of a sex scandal.
    Just saying…..

  64. @ siteseer:

    I just reread that Tennessean article and I was mistaken, it does mention a couple scandals towards the end. I read a few of the articles about poor pastors getting burned out and I guess it kind of chapped my hide.

  65. Christiane wrote:

    Stephen W wrote:

    But like I said we are all sinners and nobody’s perfect.

    Please NEVER use this as an ‘excuse’ for any person. We cannot ‘minimize’ sin because ‘everybody does it’; it doesn’t work that way.

    Take a look at this, and think about it for a while:

    “This thought should keep us humble. We are sinners, but we do not know how great. He alone knows Who died for our sins.”
    (John Henry Newman)

    And again, amen.

  66. Christiane wrote:

    I feel sad for his wife.

    There is something SO disfunctional in neo-Cal world that inspires greed and massive male ego among the leaders

    and the basic ‘steath’ thing is not just reserved to a ‘takeover’ of an SBC church either, it also shows up in a neo-Cal operation (I won’t call it a ‘church’) with secrecy about money and sin) …

    Just to clarify, Pete’s Church is an ARC church. ARC churches aren’t Neo-Cal. They are primarily centered around entertainment and are also Pentecostal/Spirit filled. The most famous pastor at Cross Point, by far, is Shawn Craig, of Phillips Craig and Dean fame. Craig is an ORU guy who also did some of his post graduate work at Jack Hayford’s King’s Seminary – now called The King’s University and run by Gateway Church of Southlake, TX where Hayford sits as an Apostolic Elder and also draws a massive annual check for simply holding the title of Chancellor. Cross Point is very ARC-ish.
    .
    Your observation about secrecy is even more relevant in the world of ARC, where adulterer Dino Rizzo sets the tone and rules the organization. David Middlebrook and his law firm, The Church Law Group, represent Pete Wilson and Cross Point Church http://churchlawgroup.com/our-clients/organizations/ Middlebrook reigns supreme at taking tithe dollars in exchange for helping pastors and churches engage in deceit, spin and cover-ups.
    .
    It would’ve been Middlebrook and likely his PR expert partner Lawrence Swicegood, who would’ve been brought in early to craft the cover story about Pete’s resignation being due to burn-out. They are masters at turning the perp pastors into the “victims” and making people feel sorry for these men who make staggering sums while abusing their positions of power. Obviously they didn’t have any trouble getting the CP Elders to play along as they claim they begged their alleged serial adulterer head pastor to stay, which should cast significant doubt on the integrity and judgment of the entire leadership of CPC.
    .
    Dee didn’t mention the secrecy about the salaries at CPC for nothing. IDK what Pete was making but I know ARC believes that executive salaries should be as highly of a guarded secret as nuclear codes. IDK what Robert Morris is making in 2016, but the Capin Crouse survey he justifies his salary with, put him north of $1.1M 5 years ago when Gateway wasn’t even that big. I am sure his base pay is significantly higher now.
    .
    Pete was a trend-setting leader inside an ARC church. I think many of his members might be genuinely surprised by how much his total package was at the time of his resignation. It is these high salaries at these ARC churches that largely create the financial strain that Cross Point is currently undergoing. Compensation typically accounts for 45-55% of all church expenses. The trendy, hot ARC churches run on the higher end of that spectrum and they have a trickle down affect. When the head pastor makes over a million, the next senior level pastors can’t make a paltry $200,000 each. And so it goes, down the line. High salaries for top executives may also likely have been behind much of the subversive environment, as they can strongly affect morale that can result in high turn-over and staff vanishing like that which was reported at CPC. That is trademark ARC.
    .
    My heart breaks for the members of CP. They will be experiencing a great deal of cognitive dissonance as more details unfold. Hopefully, they will realize that sunlight disinfects and that there is never anything godly that takes place in secret and darkness. Members will struggle as they reflect on all the years they have invested in time, talent and treasure to this organization. It will be a difficult time for all of them and my prayers go out to them.
    .
    Dee is correct, that accountability is the key. If your church is not transparent there is a problem. And it is this exact lack of transparency that allows for tiny acts of deception at first. These tiny acts quickly give way to larger and larger ones, each one being rationalized as necessary for reaching the Kingdom. At some point it takes on a life of its own as pastors are now fixated on preserving a massive personal empire. The heart behind their decisions and actions slowly change but they keep the “Christ centered” lingo in tact as camouflage so many don’t see the warning signs until it is too late.
    .
    The fact that Pete Wilson, the head pastor of Cross Point Church, was so well qualified to become the PRESIDENT of a marketing and branding company that engages in integrated marketing plans, graphic design, video production, digital marketing and mastering social media, should tell everyone where his focus was all along. I’d also be curious to know how many CPC tithe dollars were paid to The A Group prior to Pete’s big promotion and how many tithe dollars will continue to be paid to The A Group now with Pete at the helm? I think that is a question CPC members should ask, especially if CPC is cutting back on other expenses.
    .
    Truthfully, that’s really what ARC churches are all about anyway – branding, logos, marketing machines, book and merch sales, videos, social media and entertainment, entertainment and more entertainment. But should the head pastor – the lead shepherd – the person who must feed and love the flock – really be tied up in all of that? For people who think the answer to that is yes, they should stick with ARC churches. Sure, they are expensive. They end up costing you 10-20% of your income for life. But you won’t be disappointed. You will receive country club membership in a 501(c)3 that focuses on all those cool things, leaving little time for honesty, decency, non-coercion and fidelity.
    .
    Uber slick organizations focused on entertainment and growth don’t have a particular need for love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, gentleness and self-control. Those things only tend to get in the way of the multi-million dollar audio/visual systems, third wave coffee bars, four color magazines, ATM machines, book stores, giant conferences, professional athletes and professional comedians as speakers, etc – all the stuff that is promoted through ARC and now Pete Wilson as President of The A Group (how appropriate that the marketing arm of the coolest church in Nashville echoes the sentiment that they are still the ultimate cool kid’s table you want handling your church’s marketing needs. Come sit with The A Group! We’ll make you feel special for the right price $$!)
    .
    The most important lesson is that these churches that focus on such worldly goals will continue to be plagued with worldly temptations and the resultant dworldly falls. The fact that they have the protection of such great cover-up artists like David Middlebrook on the payroll only make the temptations more alluring, because you are guaranteed a soft landing – either as the President of a big church marketing firm, or like Dino Rizzo, your friends will hire you for that year or two until you get back on top with your “inappropriate friendships” and giant pay-offs behind you permanently, or until the next one crops up.
    .
    Shoot, even the most scandal ridden pastor in the world, Mark Driscoll, is back in the ARC supported saddle (although he maintains his own identity). These nasty pastors are like zombies. With ARC having their backs, nothing stops them for long – the may stumble a bit and have to take a few weeks or even a few months off – but before you know it they’re baaaaaaack!! But should guys like Wilson, Rizzo or Driscoll be anyone’s pastor once they are biblically disqualified?

  67. @ Stephen W:

    “But like I said we are all sinners and nobody’s perfect. I am so happy to be a part of a church that is reaching the lost and making a difference in the world no matter how broken we are. I love my church!”
    +++++++++++++++++++++

    behind the good experience and the good feelings you have about your church is this: the leaders lied to you. to protect themselves, their reputations, their paychecks, their power.

    and the spoonful of sugar that made the lie go down is how the leaders manipulated your feelings & emotions. played on your compassion & empathy, as subterfuge. you were tricked. tell me you’re not ok with this. tell me you expect more from your leaders. Like honesty, integrity, taking responsibility, truthfulness, transparency. Insist on it.

  68. Mercy’s Mama wrote:

    @ Dave A A:
    Omg I loathe that guy….

    I apologized to the “churchleaders” but that was Nieuwhof as well. Here are a couple lowlights, for those who don’t want to go to the article.
    “The reality is that small church pastors also leave their ministries, experience burnout and suffer moral failure every day.
    You just never hear about it because those stories don’t make the news. (Please note, neither the exit of Pete or Perry involves moral failure.)”
    Assuming he didn’t know about Pete’s moral failure– how can he say this about Perry, who confessed to drunkenness and neglecting his family?
    Or this:
    “Some writers and social media commentators have taken cheap shots. Man, that breaks my heart. I hope this post is the opposite of taking shots at anyone.
    The mission of the church and its leaders is too important to do that.”

  69. LT wrote:

    and how many tithe dollars will continue to be paid to The A Group now with Pete at the helm?

    One other secret I suppose will be closely guarded is whether Pete is currently double dipping with an A Group salary and severance pay from the church.

  70. I have decided it’s time to introduce another acronym to TWW, to accompany:

     ION (In Other News) (i.e. “this comment is completely irrelevant”)
     IHTIH (I Hope This Is Helpful)

    … as well as the important neologisms “Deebs” and “Wartburgers”.

    Today’s new acronym reflects the fact that a few of us are on UTC+1 which is several hours ahead of the majority of Wartburgers. It is:

     GMFS

    … and stands for Good Morning From Scotland.

    BeakerJ (or “Beaks” as she is more properly known) may prefer GMFE. Anyway, without further ado:

  71. GMFS

    I’ve been pondering this whole thing about “grace” – in the sense of, our willingness to overlook one another’s quirks, faults, mistakes, right up to deep-rooted and persistent flaws that cause great damage not just to ourselves but to others.

    In particular, I’m curious about the selective nature of the grace we give. That is, humanly speaking, we seem to divide people into two camps here:
     Those we are willing to be gracious to;
     Those we are not.

    To the first group, we are willing to give limitless, unconditional grace: nobody’s perfect, we’re all sinners, look at the good this person’s done. The slightest hint of self-deprecation and we’re overflowing with admiration for their repentance and humility. They did something bad? Who cares – at the very worst, they made a well-meaning mistake. And if they show actual remorse, and tears..? We cry with them – tears of joy at the overflow of their godly hearts. They rebuke us? How gracious of them – we’ve sinned! faithful are the wounds of a friend! They did it for their love of truth and the gospel. This group can, when push comes to shove, do nothing wrong.

    Then, to the second group, we don’t give any grace at all. They once lied? Then they’re liars, and we should never trust anything they’ve ever said. They apologised? Who cares – they didn’t mean it. They did something “good”? They had an ulterior motive. They rebuke us? Pathetic. They’re selfishly reacting to a personal slight, and they’re judgemental and bitter. This group can, when push comes to shove, do nothing right.

    At a congregation in Glasgow, I was in the second group as far as one particular leader was concerned. He never ran out of reasons to curse me. At the same time, that man was so devoted to the congregation’s CEO that he vowed to serve him cheerfully no matter how nonsensical his commands.

    I have a book called “Church in the Market Place” by George Carey, former Archbishop of Canterbury, describing his experiences helping breathe life back into a moribund parish church in Durham. I respect Carey, and what he and others did there together, enormously. It’s odd that I saw the same phenomenon of “selective grace” in the book, though. There were long-standing churchgoers who bitterly fought every change; but no matter how ungodly their behaviour (“You have destroyed my [sic] church, and I can never forgive you for that”) he never had anything but love and admiration for them. On the other hand, he was remarkably cool and grudging towards another group of believers in Durham (particularly those who founded a new congregation in the city). He didn’t describe them as “dear people” nor refer to their “godly motives”. In other words, “selective grace” is everywhere in the christian community.

    So: I’m trying to spot, now, when my own “love” and “grace” is selective. I may find some unpleasant surprises…

  72. zooey111 wrote:

    Stephen W wrote:
    But like I said we are all sinners and nobody’s perfect.
    Its amazing to me, however, how many of us manage to go thru life without being at the center of a sex scandal.
    Just saying…..

    You made me laugh!

  73. LT wrote:

    Christiane wrote:
    I feel sad for his wife.
    There is something SO disfunctional in neo-Cal world that inspires greed and massive male ego among the leaders
    and the basic ‘steath’ thing is not just reserved to a ‘takeover’ of an SBC church either, it also shows up in a neo-Cal operation (I won’t call it a ‘church’) with secrecy about money and sin) …
    Just to clarify, Pete’s Church is an ARC church. ARC churches aren’t Neo-Cal. They are primarily centered around entertainment and are also Pentecostal/Spirit filled. The most famous pastor at Cross Point, by far, is Shawn Craig, of Phillips Craig and Dean fame. Craig is an ORU guy who also did some of his post graduate work at Jack Hayford’s King’s Seminary – now called The King’s University and run by Gateway Church of Southlake, TX where Hayford sits as an Apostolic Elder and also draws a massive annual check for simply holding the title of Chancellor. Cross Point is very ARC-ish.
    .
    Your observation about secrecy is even more relevant in the world of ARC, where adulterer Dino Rizzo sets the tone and rules the organization. David Middlebrook and his law firm, The Church Law Group, represent Pete Wilson and Cross Point Church http://churchlawgroup.com/our-clients/organizations/ Middlebrook reigns supreme at taking tithe dollars in exchange for helping pastors and churches engage in deceit, spin and cover-ups.
    .
    It would’ve been Middlebrook and likely his PR expert partner Lawrence Swicegood, who would’ve been brought in early to craft the cover story about Pete’s resignation being due to burn-out. They are masters at turning the perp pastors into the “victims” and making people feel sorry for these men who make staggering sums while abusing their positions of power. Obviously they didn’t have any trouble getting the CP Elders to play along as they claim they begged their alleged serial adulterer head pastor to stay, which should cast significant doubt on the integrity and judgment of the entire leadership of CPC.
    .
    Dee didn’t mention the secrecy about the salaries at CPC for nothing. IDK what Pete was making but I know ARC believes that executive salaries should be as highly of a guarded secret as nuclear codes. IDK what Robert Morris is making in 2016, but the Capin Crouse survey he justifies his salary with, put him north of $1.1M 5 years ago when Gateway wasn’t even that big. I am sure his base pay is significantly higher now.
    .
    Pete was a trend-setting leader inside an ARC church. I think many of his members might be genuinely surprised by how much his total package was at the time of his resignation. It is these high salaries at these ARC churches that largely create the financial strain that Cross Point is currently undergoing. Compensation typically accounts for 45-55% of all church expenses. The trendy, hot ARC churches run on the higher end of that spectrum and they have a trickle down affect. When the head pastor makes over a million, the next senior level pastors can’t make a paltry $200,000 each. And so it goes, down the line. High salaries for top executives may also likely have been behind much of the subversive environment, as they can strongly affect morale that can result in high turn-over and staff vanishing like that which was reported at CPC. That is trademark ARC.
    .
    My heart breaks for the members of CP. They will be experiencing a great deal of cognitive dissonance as more details unfold. Hopefully, they will realize that sunlight disinfects and that there is never anything godly that takes place in secret and darkness. Members will struggle as they reflect on all the years they have invested in time, talent and treasure to this organization. It will be a difficult time for all of them and my prayers go out to them.
    .
    Dee is correct, that accountability is the key. If your church is not transparent there is a problem. And it is this exact lack of transparency that allows for tiny acts of deception at first. These tiny acts quickly give way to larger and larger ones, each one being rationalized as necessary for reaching the Kingdom. At some point it takes on a life of its own as pastors are now fixated on preserving a massive personal empire. The heart behind their decisions and actions slowly change but they keep the “Christ centered” lingo in tact as camouflage so many don’t see the warning signs until it is too late.
    .
    The fact that Pete Wilson, the head pastor of Cross Point Church, was so well qualified to become the PRESIDENT of a marketing and branding company that engages in integrated marketing plans, graphic design, video production, digital marketing and mastering social media, should tell everyone where his focus was all along. I’d also be curious to know how many CPC tithe dollars were paid to The A Group prior to Pete’s big promotion and how many tithe dollars will continue to be paid to The A Group now with Pete at the helm? I think that is a question CPC members should ask, especially if CPC is cutting back on other expenses.
    .
    Truthfully, that’s really what ARC churches are all about anyway – branding, logos, marketing machines, book and merch sales, videos, social media and entertainment, entertainment and more entertainment. But should the head pastor – the lead shepherd – the person who must feed and love the flock – really be tied up in all of that? For people who think the answer to that is yes, they should stick with ARC churches. Sure, they are expensive. They end up costing you 10-20% of your income for life. But you won’t be disappointed. You will receive country club membership in a 501(c)3 that focuses on all those cool things, leaving little time for honesty, decency, non-coercion and fidelity.
    .
    Uber slick organizations focused on entertainment and growth don’t have a particular need for love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, gentleness and self-control. Those things only tend to get in the way of the multi-million dollar audio/visual systems, third wave coffee bars, four color magazines, ATM machines, book stores, giant conferences, professional athletes and professional comedians as speakers, etc – all the stuff that is promoted through ARC and now Pete Wilson as President of The A Group (how appropriate that the marketing arm of the coolest church in Nashville echoes the sentiment that they are still the ultimate cool kid’s table you want handling your church’s marketing needs. Come sit with The A Group! We’ll make you feel special for the right price $$!)
    .
    The most important lesson is that these churches that focus on such worldly goals will continue to be plagued with worldly temptations and the resultant dworldly falls. The fact that they have the protection of such great cover-up artists like David Middlebrook on the payroll only make the temptations more alluring, because you are guaranteed a soft landing – either as the President of a big church marketing firm, or like Dino Rizzo, your friends will hire you for that year or two until you get back on top with your “inappropriate friendships” and giant pay-offs behind you permanently, or until the next one crops up.
    .
    Shoot, even the most scandal ridden pastor in the world, Mark Driscoll, is back in the ARC supported saddle (although he maintains his own identity). These nasty pastors are like zombies. With ARC having their backs, nothing stops them for long – the may stumble a bit and have to take a few weeks or even a few months off – but before you know it they’re baaaaaaack!! But should guys like Wilson, Rizzo or Driscoll be anyone’s pastor once they are biblically disqualified?

    So very true. I saw this at my ex-church which has gotten more authoritarian (pastors/elders), driven more people away who caught on to them (including church staff, married couples, whole families, discerning singles), and silenced dissent with
    threats, excommunications, and shunnings.

  74. @ Velour:

    Sorry, I don’t know why it quoted the whole thing above when I only highlighted one wee paragraph starting with, “…accountability is the key. If your church is not transparent there is a problem. And it is this exact lack of transparency that allows for tiny acts of deception at first. These tiny acts quickly give way to larger and larger ones, each one being rationalized as necessary for reaching the Kingdom. At some point it takes on a life of its own as pastors are now fixated on preserving a massive personal empire. The heart behind their decisions and actions slowly change but they keep the “Christ centered” lingo in tact as camouflage so many don’t see the warning signs until it is too late.”
    .

  75. Gerald wrote:

    dee wrote:

    Gerald

    haven’t tithed to a church in years… I give my money to the causes I believe in, value…

    amen.

  76. Stephen W wrote:

    However, I don’t see the benefit in spreading rumors, even if your allegations may be somewhat true.

    Read your statement again. If it’s true, it’s not a rumor or allegation. Dee has presented some pretty solid evidence that your pastor and those in leadership that surround him engaged in some questionable cover-up attempts to divert from the REAL reason Pete Wilson stepped down from CP. I completely understand loving your church and feeling very disheartened over what has happened, but you have GOT to be wise here. You are probably a giving member of this church, and you deserve to know what the leadership is doing. You deserve to know if your pastor engaged in inappropriate (i.e.; abusive) behavior with other women, because any relationship with a pastor/staff member or other woman in the congregation is pastoral abuse of power. Don’t sit back and give the ‘we are all sinners’ speech in regards to the man who is appointed to guard your soul! He is to be held to the highest standard (I Tim 3:1-7) and judged BY that standard. I go to a large mega church, and I understand how it feels to be part of that family and culture. But I will way this – the millisecond I ever hear of inappropriate conduct being swept under the rug, or misappropriation of funds – I’m out of there, and I’ll tell every person I know, what I know. As a church member, you also have a responsibility to hold your pastor to account, and not to do so is to ‘wink’ at sin. (Proverbs 10:10)

  77. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    So: I’m trying to spot, now, when my own “love” and “grace” is selective. I may find some unpleasant surprises…

    I’m grateful that TWW has the benefit of several faithful, loving folks who pastor this congregation in the best possible sense – I feel like we learn from each other as we go along, and encourage each other to good things. This spoke to me today. Thank you, Nick and company.

  78. Patriciamc wrote:

    . I have a comment now that’s waiting to be posted in which I say that Dee and Deb were right. Give the people who attend Cross Point some grace.

    I know they hate to be right about this. It just happens too often. Shifty things happen too often. The church needs to deal with it I think.

    I am sorry for you guys.

  79. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    other words, “selective grace” is everywhere in the christian community.

    Yes! I think this is why these pastor articles griping about all the members of congregations who they call a cabal or gripers who won’t just get along with them bother me so much. They have endless grace for pastors and friends and endless complaints for anyone outside their circle.

  80. LT wrote:

    IDK what Robert Morris is making in 2016, but the Capin Crouse survey he justifies his salary with, put him north of $1.1M 5 years ago when Gateway wasn’t even that big.

    I enjoyed your comment but gateway was HUGE 6 years ago. Maybe it’s even huger but it was probably the biggest church is ever been to the first time I visited, they already had satellite campuses and tv screens.

  81. @ Nick Bulbeck:

    I should also say some of the endless/limited grace is just telling us what is valued. Maybe your pastor valued the people who stayed for loyalty and did not value the ones he thought betrayed him by leaving.

    We see this all the time with the nine Marx / acts 29 folks where they value submission above everything, so pedophiles are welcome but unsubmissive wives or anyone who challenges an elder not so much.

  82. zooey111 wrote:

    Its amazing to me, however, how many of us manage to go thru life without being at the center of a sex scandal.
    Just saying…..

    Sin has consequences. Forgiveness does not mean not dealing with those consequences. The church needs to stop telling people that. Our sins are not held against us by God to eternal punishment. We still have consequences on earth for those sins.

    Sin destroys families, friends, congregations, and may destroy the witness we have before those who do not have faith. We should never minimize sin, and we should not even consider allowing fallen pastors to resume ministry without years and years of proof they’ve changed, and a lot of service as a humble servant.

    The BEST job one can do is what the world would consider the lowest job, according to Jesus. We should all strive to be the janitor and not the megachurch pastor.

  83. Lea wrote:

    We see this all the time with the nine Marx / acts 29 folks where they value submission above everything, so pedophiles are welcome but unsubmissive wives or anyone who challenges an elder not so much.

    +100

  84. ishy wrote:

    We still have consequences on earth for those sins.

    Such a true statement! Our sins can have very serious consequences.

  85. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Somehow I don’t think this “Pete Wilson” is the former Governor of California.

    Or former mayor of San Diego. Knew that name was familiar. Haven’t lived in CA since Brown was governor (the first time).

  86. LT wrote:

    Just to clarify, Pete’s Church is an ARC church. ARC churches aren’t Neo-Cal. They are primarily centered around entertainment and are also Pentecostal/Spirit filled. The most famous pastor at Cross Point, by far, is Shawn Craig, of Phillips Craig and Dean fame. Craig is an ORU guy who also did some of his post graduate work at Jack Hayford’s King’s Seminary – now called The King’s University and run by Gateway Church of Southlake, TX where Hayford sits as an Apostolic Elder and also draws a massive annual check for simply holding the title of Chancellor. Cross Point is very ARC-ish.

    I’m not really disagreeing with anything you say, but I will point out that Cross Point is not Pentecostal or spirit-filled. Slick entertainment/worship band/quality video production, yes, anything Pentecostal, no. As for Shawn Craig, I’ve never, ever heard of this guy. He’s not on the staff list at this point. Maybe in the past, but within the church, he’s not well-known. Do you know what position he had?

  87. Patriciamc wrote:

    Daisy wrote:

    Yours is kind of a weird post because the first time Deb and Dee did a post about this guy, some of the other church members showed up to say “this is all speculation, speculation, speculation.”

    Yes Daisy, I did say that, and looking back, I would say that again in the absence of evidence. I have a comment now that’s waiting to be posted in which I say that Dee and Deb were right. Give the people who attend Cross Point some grace. It’s a good church with good people, and that’s all been betrayed by someone we admired. Surely you can see how this situation is difficult and shocking for the church attendees.

    And I don’t go to Crosspoint but I was also one of the ones wondering why we weren’t believing the burn out story until further evidence presented itself.

    The truth is I don’t want to entertain the idea that this could happen in MY church. But it absolutely can, and the excellent work being done by Dee and Deb points us to the fact that we need to view our pastors and our churches Differently. In this country we are way too fixated on preaching. Sad day.

  88. While I am not one to go around and quoting specific Bible verses, I think the story of king David is relavent here… David tried to cover up the situation with Bathsheba, and look where that got him! There are many other stories in teh Bible of people trying to flee, or cover up stuff, but the stories get ripped wide open… But, I guess Cross Point is different, above all of the other stories in the Bible??

    Stephen W wrote:

    @ siteseer:
    I totally agree with what you are saying. Honesty is a huge part of the way we are called to live as Christians. However, who are we to assume that the leaders of Cross Point really knew or know the truth even now. Are there actual facts or just speculation? Without having facts, is it really a good idea to publicly spread rumors? Would that have been better? Would that have been biblical?

  89. GMFT – Good Morning From Texas – sometimes, maybe like Stephen, we hide our heads in the “sand” so we don’t hear about or want to hear about what is going on in our church. I know I did that myself years ago at the local Baptist church we went to. I had decided that I never wanted to be involved in the politics of the church at all, or know what was going on. That was a huge mistake. I was so shocked to hear that the pastor had resigned one Sunday. I had left after Sunday school to get my food ready for the Thanksgiving Dinner the church was holding that night. I came early to the church to help the other ladies get the food ready. I never saw the pastor. Finally I was told that he resigned during the church service. He had been having affairs, and even fathered a child with another woman who wasn’t his wife. Could have dropped me with a feather. But my daughter, who was a teenager at the time, wasn’t surprised at all. She knew the pastor like to put his arm around the girls in inappropriate places. I will never ever be that naive about a church I go to again. Even though I am currently a “done”. It just sickens me to the very core to see what these so called “Men of God” do and get away with. Like Velour said (I think) most of us haven’t been involved in sexual scandals in our life time.

  90. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote (in a point subsequently picked up on by @ FW Rez):

    Somehow I don’t think this “Pete Wilson” is the former Governor of California.

    The name does ring a bell from somewhere. Did he star in “La Femme Nikita” (or “That McKeeter Lassie” as it’s kent here)?

  91. Patriciamc wrote:

    LT wrote:

    Just to clarify, Pete’s Church is an ARC church. ARC churches aren’t Neo-Cal. They are primarily centered around entertainment and are also Pentecostal/Spirit filled. The most famous pastor at Cross Point, by far, is Shawn Craig, of Phillips Craig and Dean fame. Craig is an ORU guy who also did some of his post graduate work at Jack Hayford’s King’s Seminary – now called The King’s University and run by Gateway Church of Southlake, TX where Hayford sits as an Apostolic Elder and also draws a massive annual check for simply holding the title of Chancellor. Cross Point is very ARC-ish.

    I’m not really disagreeing with anything you say, but I will point out that Cross Point is not Pentecostal or spirit-filled. Slick entertainment/worship band/quality video production, yes, anything Pentecostal, no. As for Shawn Craig, I’ve never, ever heard of this guy. He’s not on the staff list at this point. Maybe in the past, but within the church, he’s not well-known. Do you know what position he had?

    Shawn Craig is the Pastor of Crosspoint Church in in St. Louis, Missouri.

    The Nashville church is Cross Point.

  92. Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

    David tried to cover up the situation with Bathsheba, and look where that got him!

    But David is every pastors favorite get out of jail free card! ‘David did it too!’

    If anyone ever gives me grief about something, I will just point to how Jael killed that guy as an explanation for why whatever I did was ok.

  93. Phillips, Craig, and Dean are all Oneness (nontrinitarian) Pentecostals. I’m pretty sure Wilson’s church isn’t Oneness.

  94. Harley wrote:

    Finally I was told that he resigned during the church service. He had been having affairs, and even fathered a child with another woman who wasn’t his wife. Could have dropped me with a feather.

    You know, with all the talk about ‘don’t gossip’ I guess it’s not surprising that people keep things on the QT, but I always figured people at church would have to know about these things, because of gossip? I don’t know if that made any sense.

  95. MidwesternEasterner wrote:

    Phillips, Craig, and Dean are all Oneness (nontrinitarian) Pentecostals. I’m pretty sure Wilson’s church isn’t Oneness.

    Two different Crosspoint Churches.

    The one in Missouri is Pentecostal.

    Pete Wilson attended The Southern Baptist Seminary in Louisville, KY and his was Cross Point Church in Nashville.

    MidwesternEasterner wrote:

    Shawn Craig is the Pastor of Crosspoint Church in in St. Louis, Missouri.

    The Nashville chu

  96. Did any of you you notice that Pete Wilson attended The Southern (Baptist) Seminary in Louisville?

  97. Christiane wrote:

    I feel sad for his wife.

    I am so glad you mentioned her. This church seems to be all about Pete and his wife and kids are to just take it.

  98. DMZ wrote:

    Did any of you you notice that Pete Wilson attended The Southern (Baptist) Seminary in Louisville?

    Good point.

  99. @ Stephen W:
    Hello Stephen, I’m not able to comment at length on your Church’s situation right now but do want to briefly say a few things.

    One, I am sincerely sorry that your Church community is likely to completely fall apart, as it appears to have done many good things for individuals and the broader community in which it is located. You have my condolences.

    Two, while sympathetic, I must point out that a common and major point you’re making, that it’s wrong to comment on any possible misbehavior of Christian leaders without having absolute proof they’ve committed crimes or acted immorally, is problematic in Cross Point’s case.

    People would not need to look at so-called rumors and speculation on blogs if Cross Point’s leaders were issuing honest statements about the alleged scandals and financial improprieties the Church is facing.

    In other words, does it make sense for Pete Wilson and other Cross Point leaders to communicate the following, “we won’t be upfront with you about our moral behavior or how we spend your money but we’ll still condemn you for going to secondary sources of information to try and ascertain the truth?”

    And as for speculation, that’s what life is all about, my friend. In your comments, you’re tacitly speculating that Pete Wilson and Cross Point’s other leaders are inherently good at heart even though there is lots of evidence that that is not the case.

    The only alternative to speculating about a troubled Church’s behavior, based on the information available to us, is taking what its leadership says at face value without trying to ascertain whether or not that is the truth.

    I do not believe that blindly following any earthly leader is Biblical.

    Good luck to you.

  100. LT wrote:

    They are masters at turning the perp pastors into the “victims” and making people feel sorry for these men who make staggering sums while abusing their positions of power.

    Isn’t the ability to cast a Reality Distortion Field and play the Poor Poor Pitiful Victim when caught THE main characteristic of a Sociopath?

  101. Nancy2 wrote:

    From what I’ve read about Pete Wilson, he’s big on “vision casting”, where the lead pastor controls the church.

    Citizen Robespierre and Comrade Pol Pot were also big on Vision Casting.

  102. Patriciamc wrote:

    What I’m now scared of is that once this breaks in the church community overall (give it a couple of days) is that in a few months, we’ll get the usual statement of God’s grace and forgiveness complete with the requisite book deal.

    With the book on the NYT Best-Seller List, courtesy of 200 grand forked over to ResultSource.

  103. Patriciamc wrote:

    My one complaint has been that it’s very hippster focused, very focused on people in their 20s and 30s.

    I almost wrote this aspect of things. Both Tullian and Pete, along with their women, had a thing about looking very cool. In fact, one of them even sent a picture to Pete about how she would really like to dress-think extreme hipster.

    I am concerned that the hipster image is a clue that things are not going normally in the lives of these pastors and their families. The wives usually look nice, projecting a pleasant mom appearance. The other women try to reflect the hipster image of the pastor who is undoubtably undergoing a mid life crisis.

  104. siteseer wrote:

    I’m afraid many pastors are really actors. They go onstage and play a role. Some of them play very good roles! They are inspiring characters! They move us, they motivate us. Their scripts contain a lot of good information and truths. But the fact is, they are not really that image they play in front of the church.

    Remember the Koine Greek word for “actor”.

    And that “Actor minus Script equals Incoherence”.

  105. Coverups. If your church or pastor uses a big PR firm like DeMoss https://demoss.com/about or is a client of Church Law Group http://churchlawgroup.com/our-clients/ or any similar PR or law firm, then you can be assured that you will NOT be hearing the truth from your leadership. The industry term is “crisis management” and church leadership considers a “good thing”. The reality for the congregation is quite the opposite.

    The leadership of your church is using your tithes and offerings to protect themselves and the corporation from you. You are a potential plaintiff, whether it’s an accident on site, sexual harassment, rape, child abuse, or any other crime. Be assured that the cops won’t be called, and the truth will be buried and/or spun.

    This is one early warning system. Your church has prepared itself for the crisis, and the outcome has been determined in advance: they win, you lose. Your only option is to leave before the next crisis occurs.

  106. @ dee:
    “If these allegations are true, he is bordering on it.”

    Pete Wilson should immediately issue a strong public statement saying that the allegations of infidelity regarding him are untrue if that’s what he expects people to believe.

    This isn’t a private matter – it affects a huge Church he’s built that appears to revolve around his personality and integrity.

    Also, I don’t know the details of any of the supposed sexual improprieties being discussed, and I’m not a lawyer. However, I am under the impression that anyone can strongly argue that an affair with a superior inherently constitutes sexual harassment because it’s hard to turn down the advances of someone who can fire you.

    Life can be messy, so it’s probably best to address an issue like that in an upfront and public manner if you do want to have a sexual relationship with someone, which may seem to raise issues about consent.

  107. @ siteseer:
    The leaders were informed. An impeccable source told us. We try to be responsible but sometimes it is hard to know when to make the call to go with the story. In this instance, it was because of the integrity of the sources as well as a number of clues on social media.

  108. Stephen W wrote:

    @ siteseer:
    I totally agree with what you are saying. Honesty is a huge part of the way we are called to live as Christians. However, who are we to assume that the leaders of Cross Point really knew or know the truth even now. Are there actual facts or just speculation? Without having facts, is it really a good idea to publicly spread rumors? Would that have been better? Would that have been biblical?

    If the pastor was diddling with multiple women in the church, a staff member, a wife of a leader, to the point of destroying a leader’s marriage and still they know nothing, then they are incompetent, not servant leaders keeping watch for wolves at all, not leading by godly example in any reasonable manner, absolutely derelict in their duties, asleep at the switch–ignoring a wolf in the midst of the church.

    On the other hand, if they knew what was going on and engaged in a cover up, then they are liars and thieves–protecting a wolf in the midst of the church.

    You can’t have it both ways.

  109. Daisy wrote:

    Yours is kind of a weird post because the first time Deb and Dee did a post about this guy, some of the other church members showed up to say “this is all speculation, speculation, speculation.”

    Now, we have a second post, via eye witnesses who contacted Dee privately, confirming some things went on there, and some of the members from this church are still saying, “speculation, speculation, speculation”.

    I’m sure Stephen W will get a doggie biscuit and pat-pat-pat on the head from Pastor. “GOOD DOG! GOOD DOG!”

    Unless he’s a paid PR/Disinformation flack for Cross Point.

    Remember how every time one of these guys gets exposed on this blog, suddenly all the Defenders of the Faith come out of nowhere with the Official Spin and Church Lady Righteousness?

  110. Patriciamc wrote:

    we’ll get the usual statement of God’s grace and forgiveness complete with the requisite book deal.

    Joining The A Group says it all. Pete is in no position to counsel other churches how to do it. But he will be pushed by Maurillio.

  111. Jessica wrote:

    Coverups. If your church or pastor uses a big PR firm like DeMoss https://demoss.com/about or is a client of Church Law Group http://churchlawgroup.com/our-clients/ or any similar PR or law firm, then you can be assured that you will NOT be hearing the truth from your leadership. The industry term is “crisis management” and church leadership considers a “good thing”

    Is “crisis management” the latest Newspeak for “damage control”?

  112. Nancy2 wrote:

    From what I’ve read about Pete Wilson, he’s big on “vision casting”, where the lead pastor controls the church. Given that, I have wondered if the church will be able to survive in it’s current state. No “vision caster” means no goals or directions for the church.

    The ARC overseers have moved on in. They will find *the guy.* Stay tuned as I rev up on the demon beliefs of the Arc.

  113. dee wrote:

    The wives usually look nice, projecting a pleasant mom appearance. The other women try to reflect the hipster image of the pastor who is undoubtably undergoing a mid life crisis.

    “Mid-life crisis” as in ditching the old lady and disappearing down the road in your new Lamborghini (bought on credit) with an 18-year old big-boobed bimbo in the passenger seat, crying out “I GOTTA BE MEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!”?

  114. dee wrote:

    Patriciamc wrote:
    My one complaint has been that it’s very hippster focused, very focused on people in their 20s and 30s.
    I almost wrote this aspect of things. Both Tullian and Pete, along with their women, had a thing about looking very cool. In fact, one of them even sent a picture to Pete about how she would really like to dress-think extreme hipster.
    I am concerned that the hipster image is a clue that things are not going normally in the lives of these pastors and their families. The wives usually look nice, projecting a pleasant mom appearance. The other women try to reflect the hipster image of the pastor who is undoubtably undergoing a mid life crisis.

    Hipstianity collides with the “Seven Year Itch”?

  115. I would like to offer a comparative illustration for the modern megachurch. It’s sort of like a Vegas casino. They build a giant venue, advertise, and appeal to the general public. They draw you in with a big-name headliner. They have a carnival atmosphere for the kids and comfortable, appealing venus for the grownups (coffee, seating, bathrooms). The music, visuals, and the entire environment and experience is carefully planned. There are friendly ushers to help you find your way around to the attractions.

    You are permitted on premises as long as you play by the rules. You are expected to give your money to the house, via a gaming system, slowly and quietly. There is a tacit implication that your money funds the entire facility and operations, plus profits for the corporation. The house posts the rules, and everybody must follow them. You don’t get to vote, debate, or barter. As long as you follow the rules, you are permitted to return regularly and “donate” and enjoy the entertainment.

    If anything out of the ordinary happens, you make a scene, object to management’s practices, or how you are treated, then the pit boss calls security, and they let it be known that you are no longer welcome. They have your image and identify digitally recorded, so returning to fight back will be fruitless.

    The local media and police are also friendly towards the venue and its leadership, as it’s “good for the community” and the economy, a source of jobs and goodwill.

    The people who count the casino’s money are hidden, and the exact uses of funds is a carefully guarded secret. Occasionally some aggregate stats are revealed, like total revenue or total customers, but no details, and certainly no opportunity to make any changes will be heard from the public.

    If any of these attributes sound eerily close to your local church, you might want to think again about whether the church is entirely too focused on “things of this world”.

  116. dee wrote:

    I am so glad you mentioned her. This church seems to be all about Pete and his wife and kids are to just take it.

    Unfortunately, that is very common. Good times or bad times, focus is almost always on the pastor. Wife and kids are just animate baggage the pastor carries with him.

  117. Patriciamc wrote:

    There are a lot of older people there, but older people are very rarely shown in the videos, in print, on the website, etc.

    I was waiting to see your comments on this and I wanted to pull this out because I think it’s a common problem and an issue, particularly in the non-denom type churches.

    First let me say, I HATE these videos usually. (I finally joined a church that doesn’t do them, thank goodness.) What you say is very true, though, they usually leave out anyone who isn’t in a certain age range. How sad that is! It doesn’t fit whatever slick marketing thing they’re going for, but it isn’t authentic. It isn’t good. Old people are a blessing to church. A church, to me, should feel like a family, with a mix of older and younger, and when it doesn’t have that it feels like some part of its soul is missing.

  118. I’ve attended Cross Point for years.

    I love Pete. Most of us do. And I’m the first to admit that most of us have allowed our love for him to blur our ability to see or want to acknowledge the truth. However, I knew it was only a matter of time before these stories would be brought to light. I’ve heard all of the stories that the blogger discusses here through the grapevine. Most of us knew that (ed. female staff) resignation was a cover up of something she wasn’t discussing–from what I hear, the humility she expressed in that “new season” Facebook update was just PR shenanigans, an act to make sure her husband’s job (he’s one of Dave Ramsey’s most important people) remained safe. When the elder board asked her to resign, I’m told that basically threatened to sue.

    I’m friends with several staff members and former staff members as well as volunteers–most of them have been talking about these stories for weeks, seemingly scared to death to speak up or discuss outside of trusted circles. Through all of this, I’ve become privy to countless remarks from people that cast a very different light on Pete’s “charm”–narcissistic, self-absorbed, and controlling. It hurts. Not because I don’t believe them. But because I do. I get it that we’re all human and we all do bad things–but when we’re in church leadership, our actions possess a trickle-down effect that we can’t just “resign” from because we’re exhausted. I’ve seen these trickle-down effects in my friends who are on CP staff, etc. One of them told me that Pete called an all-staff meeting on the night before he resigned, a meeting in which he made everybody put away their cell phones, told them they were not allowed to breathe a word what he was about to tell them to anybody, and then proceeded to talked to them as if they were children. After he was done talking, he just left the building. He said goodbye to no one. This was a man who was supposed to be friends with everybody in that room. And he treated them like strangers… and now what is he doing? He’s “directing” and “advising” other churches and ministries on how to lead… I’m just flabbergasted and saddened by all of the people who are hurting because of the lies and manipulations they’ve experienced.

    But I’m happy that somebody spoke up and gave Crosspoint’s people a safe environment to be heard. CP leadership has, for years, ignored the opinions and thoughts of its people. They’re far more concerned about what North Point and Rick Warren think than they are about what their attendees think… pray for us, please. There are lots of good people at CP. And many of us are hurting, confused, and unsure what we should do next…

  119. DMZ wrote:

    Shawn Craig is the Pastor of Crosspoint Church in in St. Louis, Missouri.

    The Nashville church is Cross Point.

    This is apropos of nothing, butwhen I looked up Crosspoint Church St. Louis in Google, I got an ad at the top that said “Crosspoint Church St Louis – Compare Life Church St Louis”.

    I was so stunned, I took a screenshot. Interestingly, Crosspoint St. Louis is not on the Hartford Seminary megachurch list.

    *off to see which churches in St. Louis get this very weird church*

  120. Gerald wrote:

    Everybody at CP loves Pete…

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    I’m sure Stephen W will get a doggie biscuit and pat-pat-pat on the head from Pastor. “GOOD DOG! GOOD DOG!”

    Well, that could happen, I suppose… but I respect the fact that he was at least willing to comment here, and that neither of his two comments thus far has been conspicuously aggressive, snide, or top-heavy with ad hominem accusations.

  121. MidwesternEasterner wrote:

    Phillips, Craig, and Dean are all Oneness (nontrinitarian) Pentecostals. I’m pretty sure Wilson’s church isn’t Oneness.

    I looked at Crosspoint St. Louis’ statement of faith. If they’re oneness, they’re *very* cagey about it. The other thing I noticed is the statement of faith is 438 words long. Of that, 98 words at the end are reserved for what I would consider a “rant” about marriage. Says volumes to me.

    Now that I’ve completely gone off target, I will shut up.

  122. @ Nick Bulbeck:

    Sorry – “Post Comment” screwup there. I meant to respond separately to Gerald’s comment. Which was:

    Everybody at CP loves Pete… [including those who are calling out his behaviour]

    This is an important point. The greatest frustration I experienced throughout the process of being kicked out of Covenant Life Glasgow was the assumption (sometimes tacit and sometimes explicit) that I was only trying to address the CEO’s behaviour out of bitterness or hate. Whereas he himself had repeatedly taught on the importance of having people to speak into your life and call you out when necessary. He’d often quote Proverbs:

    Faithful are the wounds of a friend…

    Why did so few people fail to see that this applied to him? Why do so many people think that it’s loyal and even loving towards leaders to excuse any and all of their behaviour? Those who teach will be subject to stricter judgement. Far better to get that judgement in early, while there’s still time.

  123. dee wrote:

    @ MidwesternEasterner:
    Yeah-its pretty hard to keep up with all of the women, etc. It tires you out.

    “So many women, so little time…”

  124. Deana Holmes (fka mirele) wrote:

    Interestingly, Crosspoint St. Louis is not on the Hartford Seminary megachurch list.

    There is a Pentecostal church by me that people in other states know about but isn’t on the list. I know it has more than 2000 people! I’m not sure how they compile it, exactly.

    Deana Holmes (fka mirele) wrote:

    Of that, 98 words at the end are reserved for what I would consider a “rant” about marriage.

    Fun.

  125. Janna L. Chan wrote:

    @ Stephen W:
    Hello Stephen, I’m not able to comment at length on your Church’s situation right now but do want to briefly say a few things.

    People would not need to look at so-called rumors and speculation on blogs if Cross Point’s leaders were issuing honest statements about the alleged scandals and financial improprieties the Church is facing.
    In other words, does it make sense for Pete Wilson and other Cross Point leaders to communicate the following, “we won’t be upfront with you about our moral behavior or how we spend your money but we’ll still condemn you for going to secondary sources of information to try and ascertain the truth?”

    A million times YES!

  126. Deana Holmes (fka mirele) wrote:

    Most of us knew that (ed. female staff) resignation was a cover up of something she wasn’t discussing–from what I hear, the humility she expressed in that “new season” Facebook update was just PR shenanigans, an act to make sure her husband’s job (he’s one of Dave Ramsey’s most important people) remained safe. When the elder board asked her to resign, I’m told that basically threatened to sue.

    Well that is an interesting bit of information. Poor Dave Ramsey, let’s keep everything down low for his benefit . . . Who cares about spouses, children, church congregations.

  127. @ AvaW:
    I have a suggestion for all of you. Many do not understand the connection of your church with the ARC. They are the ones calling the shots here, more so than Rick Warren. Dino Rizzo showing up at your church was no coincidence. You do know that he is the adultery expert of the ARC since he, as a pastor, allegedly put his mistress up in a condo.

    We have written a number of article about the ARC (an Rizzo) and I will be linking all of them in a permanent page on our blog in the next few weeks. If you church is going thru transition, make sure that this issue is discussed. They control everything, including extremely generous compensation packages for pastors. I mean lotsa $$$$.

    As for Pete, he has no business advising other churches. However, The A Group is well aware of his issues and they don’t care. This group is not a charity. They make lots of money doing what they do.

    Hopefully, Pete’s actions will get out so that churches he *counsels* will know what they are getting.

    I deleted the name of the female staffer in your comment but left the Dave Ramsey stuff. I hope you don’t mind.

  128. Deana Holmes (fka mirele) wrote:

    Most of us knew that (ed. female staff) resignation was a cover up of something she wasn’t discussing–from what I hear, the humility she expressed in that “new season” Facebook update was just PR shenanigans, an act to make sure her husband’s job (he’s one of Dave Ramsey’s most important people) remained safe. When the elder board asked her to resign, I’m told that basically threatened to sue.

    Well that is an interesting bit of information. Poor Dave Ramsey, let’s keep everything down low for his benefit . . . Who cares about spouses, children, church congregations.Deana Holmes (fka mirele) wrote:

    Now that I’ve completely gone off target, I will shut up.

    Not off to me.

  129. Jessica wrote:

    The people who count the casino’s money are hidden, and the exact uses of funds is a carefully guarded secret. Occasionally some aggregate stats are revealed, like total revenue or total customers, but no details, and certainly no opportunity to make any changes will be heard from the public.

    In defense of casinos, they are heavily regulated. Vegas slot machines, for example, are required by law to pay back at least 75% of the take in winnings. Minnesota’s gaming compact with its tribes requires 80 to 95% payback. To know what the payback is, you have to know what the original take is, which we don’t know with churches. And I suspect the investigation into a potential casino owner is far more thorough than that for a megachurch pastor.

    I’m not promoting gambling; in fact I have to stay well away from the one-armed bandits because I find them so entrancing. (It’s not how much can I win but how does this work? Let me pull the lever again. It’s quite irrational.) But this vice is very regulated and taxed.

  130. AvaW wrote:

    I’ve heard all of the stories that the blogger discusses here through the grapevine.

    See, I am actually a believer in ‘gossip’ (as in true stories) because it’s the only way to get the real story in many places. Sure, information should be promptly given formally, but it isn’t, and it’s better to know the truth than be deceived.

  131. Patriciamc wrote:

    Pete did the right thing at the time, then went off course.

    I’ve been in a few of those situations with guys I thought were on the right course. All I can say is that I’m so sorry this has happened to you and the other folks who trusted him to be doing the right thing. It is a hard road.

  132. Patriciamc wrote:

    I’m not really disagreeing with anything you say, but I will point out that Cross Point is not Pentecostal or spirit-filled. Slick entertainment/worship band/quality video production, yes, anything Pentecostal, no. As for Shawn Craig, I’ve never, ever heard of this guy. He’s not on the staff list at this point. Maybe in the past, but within the church, he’s not well-known. Do you know what position he had?

    I’ve never been to Cross Point and haven’t listened to their sermons. However, ARC is a Pentecostal/Spirit filled based church planting organization and one of their fundamental beliefs is in the “gifts of the Holy Spirit” and “Baptism in the Holy Spirit”. All of the big ARC churches I know of are Pentecostal/Charismatic. They just aren’t denominational Pentecostal i.e. AOG, etc.

    Gateway used to strongly downplay their Pentecostalism at weekend services until just the last couple of years. They saved the weird stuff for after hours as they felt it drove away newcomers. Robert Morris still conceals that he is a leader in Empowered 21. More signs that ARC loves their secrecy and deception. Most of the big entertainment centered ARC churches seem to act similarly by appearing more mainstream during weekend services and saving the prophecy nights, tongues and Holy Spirit baptisms and exorcisms for non-weekend service classes/events/small groups. They typically bill themselves as non-denom so they can cast a wider net. I attended GW for some time before realizing they were Pentecostal.

    Again I’m not sure what goes on in CPCs Equip classes or other ministries outside of weekend service. They may have shades of it there or perhaps not. They do seem to have the exuberant worship seen in Spirit filled churches, although that can be seen in non-spirit filled churches as well.

    If they CPC is not spirit filled at all, I find it curious they would choose to keep their church under the ARC unless they simply wanted to take advantage of the entertainment and children’s ministry consulting as well as the full restoration plans for fallen pastors.

    Apparently Shawn Craig is with a different Cross Point. One article mentioned him and Wilson and I assumed it was the same CP. The dangers of late night research. Sorry about that.

  133. @ dee:
    LT wrote:

    Patriciamc wrote:
    I’m not really disagreeing with anything you say, but I will point out that Cross Point is not Pentecostal or spirit-filled. Slick entertainment/worship band/quality video production, yes, anything Pentecostal, no. As for Shawn Craig, I’ve never, ever heard of this guy. He’s not on the staff list at this point. Maybe in the past, but within the church, he’s not well-known. Do you know what position he had?
    I’ve never been to Cross Point and haven’t listened to their sermons. However, ARC is a Pentecostal/Spirit filled based church planting organization and one of their fundamental beliefs is in the “gifts of the Holy Spirit” and “Baptism in the Holy Spirit”. All of the big ARC churches I know of are Pentecostal/Charismatic. They just aren’t denominational Pentecostal i.e. AOG, etc.
    Gateway used to strongly downplay their Pentecostalism at weekend services until just the last couple of years. They saved the weird stuff for after hours as they felt it drove away newcomers. Robert Morris still conceals that he is a leader in Empowered 21. More signs that ARC loves their secrecy and deception. Most of the big entertainment centered ARC churches seem to act similarly by appearing more mainstream during weekend services and saving the prophecy nights, tongues and Holy Spirit baptisms and exorcisms for non-weekend service classes/events/small groups. They typically bill themselves as non-denom so they can cast a wider net. I attended GW for some time before realizing they were Pentecostal.
    Again I’m not sure what goes on in CPCs Equip classes or other ministries outside of weekend service. They may have shades of it there or perhaps not. They do seem to have the exuberant worship seen in Spirit filled churches, although that can be seen in non-spirit filled churches as well.
    If they CPC is not spirit filled at all, I find it curious they would choose to keep their church under the ARC unless they simply wanted to take advantage of the entertainment and children’s ministry consulting as well as the full restoration plans for fallen pastors.
    Apparently Shawn Craig is with a different Cross Point. One article mentioned him and Wilson and I assumed it was the same CP. The dangers of late night research. Sorry about that.

    I don’t mind at all, Dee. I didn’t even realize that you’d left her name out… though I’m surprised because I’m pretty sure she and Pete were EQUALS, she was over everything at CP. But I get it nonetheless…

    And the ARC stuff you discuss is interesting… is it an acronym? I knew that CP was in bed with all of those names, but I didn’t know it was anything “official”… I’m pretty sure they are leading the charge toward helping us find a new pastor… thanks for your insight.

  134. Lea wrote:

    LT wrote:

    IDK what Robert Morris is making in 2016, but the Capin Crouse survey he justifies his salary with, put him north of $1.1M 5 years ago when Gateway wasn’t even that big.

    I enjoyed your comment but gateway was HUGE 6 years ago. Maybe it’s even huger but it was probably the biggest church is ever been to the first time I visited, they already had satellite campuses and tv screens.

    Yes. GW was large 6 years ago. I was speaking relative to their size today. They are still holding at 4th largest church in America. But until 2015 they were enjoying a growth rate of over 20% a year and their budget has grown significantly – well over 100% during this time. They spent $161M last year and only a fraction of that 6 years ago.

    The point I was making is that the public only has access to the 2011 Capin Crouse salary justification survey. Every year that a church’s attendance, employees, volunteers and budget grow, this allows Capin Crouse and the church’s lawyers to justify even more staggeringly high salaries for their top execs. So Morris’ salary justification via that survey has undoubtedly gone up significantly as well due to the growth in the church. When people wonder why megas are so focused on the numbers, this is one of the big reasons why.

  135. Stephen W wrote:

    I am aware that Pete is just a man and just as much a sinner as you and I

    In my opinion, there is no such thing as ‘just as much a sinner’. There are egregious and not so egregious ‘sins’. I no longer believe that the Almighty sees all sins on an equal footing and must deal with them as such. Rabbi Schmuley Boteach does an excellent treatment of this topic in his essay The Tyranny of Perfection
    You can read it here:
    http://www.jewishjournal.com/opinion/article/the_tyranny_of_perfection_39100326/

  136. AvaW wrote:

    I’m friends with several staff members and former staff members as well as volunteers–most of them have been talking about these stories for weeks, seemingly scared to death to speak up or discuss outside of trusted circles.

    Scared to death to speak up sounds like a toxic environment, why do you put up with it?

  137. DMZ wrote:

    Shawn Craig is the Pastor of Crosspoint Church in in St. Louis, Missouri.
    The Nashville church is Cross Point.

    Okay. As far as I know CP in Nashville is not affiliated with that Crosspoint. There are other Cross
    Points, and it can be a pain to find the podcast for the right one on iTunes.

  138. Dave A A wrote:

    The mission of the church and its leaders is too important to do that.

    That last line you quoted, from Nieuwhof, was chilling. There are so many parallels that come to mind…

    The mission of the [Roman Catholic Church] and its leaders is too important to [deal with child sexual abuse].

    The mission of [Sovereign Grace Ministries] and its leaders is too important to [deal with child sexual abuse].

    The mission of [The Village Church] and its leaders is too important to [deal with child sexual abuse].

    The mission of [Coral Ridge] and its leaders is too important to [deal with adultery].

    The mission of [various churches in Memphis and Texas, IIRC] and its leaders is too important to [deal with stalking, harassment, sexual predation, intimidation, and more].

    Perhaps this is what the Lord meant wen he said, “Depart from Me, for I never knew you…”

  139. @ Nick Bulbeck:
    Fascinating. Eye-opening. Thanks for the food for thought. Will be chewing on this today as I drink my morning coffee.

    GMFUL!
    (Good morning from an undisclosed location)

  140. zooey111 wrote:

    Stephen W wrote:
    But like I said we are all sinners and nobody’s perfect.
    Its amazing to me, however, how many of us manage to go thru life without being at the center of a sex scandal.
    Just saying…..

    Yes! This! I mean, I know I am a sinner, and for years I was a rotten, worthless worm (My theology was a bit Nick Fury-ish, “Ant? Meet boot.”) But I am learning to maybe, possibly dare to hope that God is loving. And not in the way I came to believe in the past, lovingly-restraining-Himself-from-destroying-a-select-few-of-His-created-beings-even-though-they-richly-deserve-nothing-better.

    I’m still not completely sure. Our teens left the faith behind, and maybe they’re healthier than I am in that respect. As one of them once said, What’s the point in believing in a god like that?

  141. @ Velour:
    Our former church currently appears to be going through yet another split. When we left a few years ago, I admit to having had the spiteful wish that the whole church would just dissolve and blow away. Surely the people would have a better chance of finding spiritual health than if they just continued in that church.

    Now that I’ve gained some perspective, I grieve. Having lived through two previous splits in that church, I know how much pain they’re going through.

    A part of me still wishes that church would just fall apart, though. I am sorry to say that the few who I’ve talked to, over the past couple years, in an attempt to persuade them that it is an unhealthy place where the Spirit is quenched, would not hear me. Oh, they agreed with me that the church was an unhealthy place, but they still had hopes of effecting change from within.

    Sometimes the best thing to do is just walk away.

  142. Dave A A wrote:

    “The mission of the church and its leaders is too important to do that.”

    [Note: Dave AA is quoting another here, the above is not Dave’s position]

    Hey Dave AA, you’re right to go after these people who make comments like that, they leave no room for Jesus, it’s “the mission” and “the leaders”. I really believe deep down, having been part of a mega that imploded, having been an elder (and an insider who knew what the leaders were like away from the podium) at two smaller churches that turned viciously abusive because they were all about their mission and their leaders, that many of these people simply hate Jesus and secretly take sick pleasure in torturing and scattering those who love Him.

  143. @ Harley:
    Funny how perceptive our teens can be. I wish I had listened better to mine. We would have left our old church years earlier.

  144. Lea wrote:

    Harley wrote:
    Finally I was told that he resigned during the church service. He had been having affairs, and even fathered a child with another woman who wasn’t his wife. Could have dropped me with a feather.
    You know, with all the talk about ‘don’t gossip’ I guess it’s not surprising that people keep things on the QT, but I always figured people at church would have to know about these things, because of gossip? I don’t know if that made any sense.

    Depends on if you’re a part of the “inner circle” (in which, from our experience, any kind of vicious gossip about the sheeple is par for the course) or if you’re one of the sheeple.

    Gossip about the peons is only good and right. Gossip about the powers that be or those who bask in their reflected light is divisive and will not be tolerated.

  145. refugee wrote:

    As one of them once said, What’s the point in believing in a god like that?

    Gotta be careful here… there are any number of verses in the Bible, Old and even New Testament, that might lead to that thought.

    Why believe in a God that doesn’t give me the warm fuzzies 24/7?

    God judges us, not vice versa…

  146. Kemi wrote:

    …we need to view our pastors and our churches Differently. In this country we are way too fixated on preaching. Sad day.

    We do. What we call “pastor” has nothing to do with what the New Testament calls pastor. A pastor is not a CEO, not a sole leader, not a primary speaker on a stage, not a talented motivational speaker like the world seems to love. A pastor’s role isn’t even much described in the New Testament, the word “pastor” hardly even shows up there (only once in the singular in the entire New Testament, in Eph 4).

    We love motivational speakers who give our itching ears what they want to hear, we want to line up after a dynamic leader (or a brutal tyrant who can get us where we want to go, as the 20th century taught us), we want a talented CEO to tell us all is alright and he’s in control, we want all these things–in short, like Israel, we want a king. And we end up with Saul destroying our children and leading us into needless battle and pitting us against one another and ruining our fellowship.

    Those calling themselves pastors are, for the most part (even if they’re otherwise decent people) wrong-headed, they’re assuming a made-up role, one that does not exist in the New Testament, and to enrich themselves, they employ another concept that does not exist in the New Testament, one that died with the Levitical priesthood, the tithe. Some of the worst of them, the ones most given over to self, even tell people they’ll get demons if they refuse to follow this distinctly non-New Testament concept.

  147. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Remember how every time one of these guys gets exposed on this blog, suddenly all the Defenders of the Faith come out of nowhere with the Official Spin and Church Lady Righteousness?

    Reminds me of the young man from the old church who, in the middle of the current (apparent) church split, is posting righteous Facebook posts about the peace and purity of the church.

  148. roebuck wrote:

    refugee wrote:
    As one of them once said, What’s the point in believing in a god like that?
    Gotta be careful here… there are any number of verses in the Bible, Old and even New Testament, that might lead to that thought.
    Why believe in a God that doesn’t give me the warm fuzzies 24/7?
    God judges us, not vice versa…

    Sounds like you’d fit in just fine at our former church.

  149. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Jessica wrote:
    Coverups. If your church or pastor uses a big PR firm like DeMoss https://demoss.com/about or is a client of Church Law Group http://churchlawgroup.com/our-clients/ or any similar PR or law firm, then you can be assured that you will NOT be hearing the truth from your leadership. The industry term is “crisis management” and church leadership considers a “good thing”
    Is “crisis management” the latest Newspeak for “damage control”?

    What I find grimly amusing about the idea of “crisis management” is that the crises appear to be of their own making.

  150. roebuck wrote:

    Gotta be careful here… there are any number of verses in the Bible, Old and even New Testament, that might lead to that thought.

    Why believe in a God that doesn’t give me the warm fuzzies 24/7?

    God judges us, not vice versa…

    Because if believing in a god who is all about judgment, “you are a lowly worm who is severely trying my mercy and let me get out my (metaphorical) bolt of lightning to deal with you, you wretched sinner…” You know, the god of the late Jack Chick (who died yesterday). I said years ago I’d rather not worship such a god, since that is so damaging to my mental health.

  151. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    dee wrote:
    The wives usually look nice, projecting a pleasant mom appearance. The other women try to reflect the hipster image of the pastor who is undoubtably undergoing a mid life crisis.
    “Mid-life crisis” as in ditching the old lady and disappearing down the road in your new Lamborghini (bought on credit) with an 18-year old big-boobed bimbo in the passenger seat, crying out “I GOTTA BE MEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!”?

    HUG, have you ever read One More Sunday by John D. MacDonald?

  152. dee wrote:

    Joining The A Group says it all. Pete is in no position to counsel other churches how to do it. But he will be pushed by Maurillio.

    You’re 100% right.

  153. Nancy2 wrote:

    dee wrote:
    I am so glad you mentioned her. This church seems to be all about Pete and his wife and kids are to just take it.
    Unfortunately, that is very common. Good times or bad times, focus is almost always on the pastor. Wife and kids are just animate baggage the pastor carries with him.

    I thought perhaps they were props. Isn’t it true that there are denominations where only married men get hired to be pastors?

  154. Wisdom from Pete’s Twitter:
    “Just remember that often the hateful, negative, criticism you received was more about “their” story than “yours”.”

    Of course, sometimes it’s just about you.

  155. BTW, I wonder if that Ex Pastors guy has ever come back and said ‘you know, I was totally wrong about that guy. Apparently he’s just a snake. My bad’.

  156. DMZ wrote:

    Did any of you you notice that Pete Wilson attended The Southern (Baptist) Seminary in Louisville?

    He did, but he wasn’t fundy and women were/are allowed to do things.

  157. Deana Holmes (fka mirele) wrote:

    roebuck wrote:

    Gotta be careful here… there are any number of verses in the Bible, Old and even New Testament, that might lead to that thought.

    Why believe in a God that doesn’t give me the warm fuzzies 24/7?

    God judges us, not vice versa…

    Because if believing in a god who is all about judgment, “you are a lowly worm who is severely trying my mercy and let me get out my (metaphorical) bolt of lightning to deal with you, you wretched sinner…” You know, the god of the late Jack Chick (who died yesterday). I said years ago I’d rather not worship such a god, since that is so damaging to my mental health.

    I was not talking about a Jack Chick’s ‘god’. I was only saying that there are difficult passages in the Bible, and if we use them as excuses to not believe in ‘that kind of God’, we’re skating on thin ice.

    I believe most of us have done that at various times, or continuously throughout our life. I know I have. I’m just saying…, well, what am I saying? I quit. No matter what I say will be misunderstood, so I just quit.

  158. Deana Holmes (fka mirele) wrote:

    roebuck wrote:
    Gotta be careful here… there are any number of verses in the Bible, Old and even New Testament, that might lead to that thought.
    Why believe in a God that doesn’t give me the warm fuzzies 24/7?
    God judges us, not vice versa…
    Because if believing in a god who is all about judgment, “you are a lowly worm who is severely trying my mercy and let me get out my (metaphorical) bolt of lightning to deal with you, you wretched sinner…” You know, the god of the late Jack Chick (who died yesterday). I said years ago I’d rather not worship such a god, since that is so damaging to my mental health.

    @roebuck
    Mirele put it better than I could. Whenever I mention how despair-inducing worm theology is to me, personally, I get slapped with the accusation that all I want is a warm-fuzzy-god.

    Which isn’t the case at all, BTW. But it’s a great conversation stopper.

  159. Lea wrote:

    BTW, I wonder if that Ex Pastors guy has ever come back and said ‘you know, I was totally wrong about that guy. Apparently he’s just a snake. My bad’.

    Aw, now. “That guy” is just a sinner. Like the rest of us. Ergo, no need to apologize or call him a snake. He’ll repent — he’s already repented, as a matter of fact. Shhh. He’s in the middle of writing his best-seller comeback book. Wouldn’t want to disturb him.
    /sarcasm

  160. refugee wrote:

    Deana Holmes (fka mirele) wrote:

    roebuck wrote:
    Gotta be careful here… there are any number of verses in the Bible, Old and even New Testament, that might lead to that thought.
    Why believe in a God that doesn’t give me the warm fuzzies 24/7?
    God judges us, not vice versa…
    Because if believing in a god who is all about judgment, “you are a lowly worm who is severely trying my mercy and let me get out my (metaphorical) bolt of lightning to deal with you, you wretched sinner…” You know, the god of the late Jack Chick (who died yesterday). I said years ago I’d rather not worship such a god, since that is so damaging to my mental health.

    @roebuck
    Mirele put it better than I could. Whenever I mention how despair-inducing worm theology is to me, personally, I get slapped with the accusation that all I want is a warm-fuzzy-god.

    Which isn’t the case at all, BTW. But it’s a great conversation stopper.

    For cryin’ out loud, I wasn’t talking about lowly-worm theology. Talking about conversation stoppers is a great conversation stopper. I quit. Too many raw feelings here, and I have proven to my own satisfaction my own inability to articulate what I mean to say.

  161. roebuck wrote:

    No matter what I say will be misunderstood, so I just quit.

    No, I understood you very well. I protested against judgment being held over my head in a sword-of-Damocles manner, and you said “but God is Judge. The Bible says so. Therefore, if you protest judgement, you are saying all you want is a 24/7 warm-and-fuzzy god.”

    I think I wouldn’t kick against the goad so much if, instead of slapping me down with judgment as an inescapable fact of life, you had said, Yes, there are Bible verses that portray God (and even Jesus) as Judge (or coming to judge), but they are balanced by verses about His great love.

    I have been pounded with judgment (okay, switching metaphor from sword to sledgehammer) for decades. I’m tired. I need to hear more about His lovingkindness, which endures forever, than about His judgment right now. I am full “up to here” with judgment, and while I’m not throwing it all away, I am a smoking flax, a bent reed, clinging to the promise that a wise and loving God will not choose to quench me or break me off.

    Yeah, his judgment is still there. Pardon me for not fixing my eyes on that, any longer, but trying to fix my eyes on Christ instead.

  162. AvaW wrote:

    I’ve attended Cross Point for years.
    I love Pete. Most of us do. And I’m the first to admit that most of us have allowed our love for him to blur our ability to see or want to acknowledge the truth…

    The difficulty is, you probably didn’t love Pete, but an image Pete projected. You probably didn’t know Pete or anything much about the true man. The people who probably knew Pete were the deep insiders, such as the close family members, the handful of church insiders who saw the real man, maybe his paramours (assuming this is all true), those to whom Pete could be exactly what he really was, those who saw the flashes of anger, the self-centered nature, perhaps the patty hatreds and sadism. We’re all something different than the image we project to the world, no? Then again, maybe he even snowed all of them. The only one who really knows Pete is the Lord Himself.

    AvaW wrote:

    And many of us are hurting, confused, and unsure what we should do next…

    You need to seek Jesus, because no matter how inspiring the words you heard, no matter how talented you thought the speaking was (probably not as genuinely talented, insightful or inspiring as a loving, nigh worshipful follower thinks), no matter how good the feelings you got, I sincerely doubt you were getting the real deal, the love of Christ.

  163. roebuck wrote:

    refugee wrote:
    Deana Holmes (fka mirele) wrote:
    roebuck wrote:
    Gotta be careful here… there are any number of verses in the Bible, Old and even New Testament, that might lead to that thought.
    Why believe in a God that doesn’t give me the warm fuzzies 24/7?
    God judges us, not vice versa…
    Because if believing in a god who is all about judgment, “you are a lowly worm who is severely trying my mercy and let me get out my (metaphorical) bolt of lightning to deal with you, you wretched sinner…” You know, the god of the late Jack Chick (who died yesterday). I said years ago I’d rather not worship such a god, since that is so damaging to my mental health.
    @roebuck
    Mirele put it better than I could. Whenever I mention how despair-inducing worm theology is to me, personally, I get slapped with the accusation that all I want is a warm-fuzzy-god.
    Which isn’t the case at all, BTW. But it’s a great conversation stopper.
    For cryin’ out loud, I wasn’t talking about lowly-worm theology. Talking about conversation stoppers is a great conversation stopper. I quit. Too many raw feelings here, and I have proven to my own satisfaction my own inability to articulate what I mean to say.

    Well, I was talking about worm theology. Sorry if I did not make that more clear from the very beginning.

  164. Law Prof wrote:

    The difficulty is, you probably didn’t love Pete, but an image Pete projected. You probably didn’t know Pete or anything much about the true man.

    If he was a narcissist this is even more true.

    The comment about people being scared to talk about the bad stuff is very creepy.

  165. refugee wrote:

    “but God is Judge. The Bible says so. Therefore, if you protest judgement, you are saying all you want is a 24/7 warm-and-fuzzy god.”

    Not what I said. Kindly do not put into quotes attributed to me things I did not say.

    Listen, all I wanted to do was point out the tendency for people to blow off Christianity because they found this or that verse uncomfortable. Whatever you THOUGHT I meant, that’s what I meant.

  166. AvaW wrote:

    One of them told me that Pete called an all-staff meeting on the night before he resigned, a meeting in which he made everybody put away their cell phones, told them they were not allowed to breathe a word what he was about to tell them to anybody, and then proceeded to talked to them as if they were children. After he was done talking, he just left the building. He said goodbye to no one. This was a man who was supposed to be friends with everybody in that room. And he treated them like strangers…

    I guess the culture of fear and concealment and control ran so deep that even at the end, when Pete had no bona fide power over anyone in the room, not a soul stood up to him? No one got in his face and told him what a scumbag he was, what a pompous and delusional fool he was to think he could control them and condescend to them even at that point? No one concealed their phone in their pocket and pressed “record”? (I hope someone did or took notes)

    Thank goodness someone spoke out. I hope he gets fired by his new employer–in the alternative, if he does not, I hope that his new employer goes bankrupt for caring nothing about the truth and everything about new business opportunities and market share.

    This is not about Jesus.

  167. dee wrote:

    @ siteseer:
    The leaders were informed. An impeccable source told us. We try to be responsible but sometimes it is hard to know when to make the call to go with the story. In this instance, it was because of the integrity of the sources as well as a number of clues on social media.

    Which makes me wonder about the statement from the elders. 100% lie?

  168. Muff Potter wrote:

    In my opinion, there is no such thing as ‘just as much a sinner’.

    I teach fraud, all that line is the commonplace line that fraudsters use, they minimize what they did, “Hey, nobody’s perfect.” Of course nobody’s perfect, but that doesn’t mean that no one can call out sin or that fraudsters can’t be persecuted for fraud.

    Taking their argument to its logical conclusion, you may never call out anything, ever, because no one’s perfect. Timothy McVeigh murdered 170 people in cold blood and maimed hundreds more, but hey, your 3 year old just told a fib–the three year old’s no better, it’s all the same. That’s a lie from hell.

  169. Jessica wrote:

    The house posts the rules, and everybody must follow them.

    Very good analogy, Jessica, that so many of these churches are set up like casinos. Although, at least at casinos you can win and even The House doesn’t have this kind of advantage.

    I don’t think that these churches post the rules. I think that people find out the rules by bumping in to unspoken rules.

    At a mega I attended they even had a sophisticated phone system where they blocked ‘problem members’ (those who raised questions) phone calls from even reaching the light of day/clergy. That mega pastor had an affair and had to step down. He is now at a hotel with his loyal following on Sundays.

  170. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    So: I’m trying to spot, now, when my own “love” and “grace” is selective. I may find some unpleasant surprises…

    Great line there. It is easy to show righteous indignation when others are being hypocrites. It is hard to look in the mirror and see when we are doing the same thing. God is not a respecter of persons. Anyone can be a narcissist. It is very popular and anyone with lots of friends on Facebook has seen them. Most are wanna-bees who will fight and scratch their way trying to get to the top and fail. The real Church will help others with the Romans 6 sanctification process. Embracing humility enough to make a habit of checking yourself daily in the mirror is a big part of that.

  171. Amy Smith wrote:

    Bill M wrote:
    Scared to death to speak up sounds like a toxic environment, why do you put up with it?
    Mark of a cult

    Psychologist/author/Thought Reform/cult expert Steve Hassan’s BITE Model (inspired by the work of famed psychiatrist Dr. Robert Jay Lifton, at Yale, and his research about Chinese Communist Thought Reform methods used to gain peoples’ obedience and also how other authoritarian groups operate).

    https://www.freedomofmind.com/Info/BITE/bitemodel.php

    The BITE Model
    I. Behavior Control
    II. Information Control
    III. Thought Control
    IV. Emotional Control

  172. refugee wrote:

    Mirele put it better than I could. Whenever I mention how despair-inducing worm theology is to me, personally, I get slapped with the accusation that all I want is a warm-fuzzy-god.

    Which isn’t the case at all, BTW. But it’s a great conversation stopper.

    I wsnt to be clear about the kind of mental harm this conception of “god” does for people like me who are already depressed. It makes me sit at my desk at work and cry. It sends me into a depressive spiral. Andat times, it’s pushed me into a “I cannot possibly do anything right for this god, so why bother living” mode.

    Yeah, it is super destructive and I fight with it often.

  173. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    I’m sure Stephen W will get a doggie biscuit and pat-pat-pat on the head from Pastor. “GOOD DOG! GOOD DOG!”
    Unless he’s a paid PR/Disinformation flack for Cross Point.
    Remember how every time one of these guys gets exposed on this blog, suddenly all the Defenders of the Faith come out of nowhere with the Official Spin and Church Lady Righteousness?

    Or he could just be an average person who wants to believe the best.

  174. refugee wrote:

    Sometimes the best thing to do is just walk away.

    Yes, indeed.

    We all ‘wake up and smell the coffee’ at different times.

  175. Patriciamc wrote:

    Or he could just be an average person who wants to believe the best.

    I tend to err on the side of caution with people, because they absolutely could be an average person who wants to believe the best. Most do.

    Some sentiments appear over and over again, and they could be everyone thinking the same way (which happens) but they do sound suspicious. Like the ‘if you only hear the WHOLE story you would get it’ from the village church defenders. Turned out, we had heard the whole story already. Some of those people were probably well meaning, too, but deeply steeped in groupthink.

  176. roebuck wrote:

    I was not talking about a Jack Chick’s ‘god’. I was only saying that there are difficult passages in the Bible, and if we use them as excuses to not believe in ‘that kind of God’, we’re skating on thin ice.

    I believe most of us have done that at various times, or continuously throughout our life. I know I have. I’m just saying…, well, what am I saying? I quit. No matter what I say will be misunderstood, so I just quit.

    Don’t ‘quit’. You needed to say what you did. And I think you wanted to discuss it with people who would listen and try to understand your meaning. Nothing wrong with that. For two millenia, the Church had this discussion and, in the end, it was decided that the connection between the written word and the Holy Spirit was real, and that since the Holy Spirit points only to Christ, then it would follow that the God of the OT and the God of the NT were the ‘same’ God, and that the clearest revelation we have had of ‘Who that God is’ is Jesus Christ, Who spoke and acted in the very Person of God.

  177. AvaW wrote:

    I’m friends with several staff members and former staff members as well as volunteers–most of them have been talking about these stories for weeks, seemingly scared to death to speak up or discuss outside of trusted circles.

    My goodness. This has not hit the Small group grapevine yet. Everyone last night was happy as can be, mentioned Pete’s getting a new job, etc. I kept my mouth shut. If anyone else knew, they didn’t speak up either becaue I think we’re all scared to be labeled “gossips.”

    AvaW wrote:

    Through all of this, I’ve become privy to countless remarks from people that cast a very different light on Pete’s “charm”–narcissistic, self-absorbed, and controlling. It hurts.

    I’m very disappointed in Pete. As I said in an earlier comment, I’ve never seen him as sinless (of course not), but I do think he is immensly talented as a preacher, and he’s betrayed that God-given talent (among a lot of other things).

  178. siteseer wrote:

    Here’s an example of one of the articles that the situation inspired:
    http://www.tennessean.com/story/news/religion/2016/09/18/what-resignation-cross-points-pete-wilson-says-pastor-burnout/90311180/
    The focus of the article is the pitfalls that pastors face. It talks about how difficult and complex the job is. It lists the reasons most pastors leave the pastorate- in giving so much for the good of the church, the pastor loses sight of taking care of himself. Nowhere in this article does it mention pastors being caught in sexual predation, abusing the people under them, misusing money, or any other character flaws. It leaves the weight and guilt on the parishioners for being so difficult to lead, for not taking better care of their pastors. Nowhere does it ever mention that maybe some men go into the pastorate because it is like crack to a sociopath.
    We all have actors that we like. We follow them, enjoy their movies, identify with their characters. We know (hopefully) they are playing roles and are not actually the person they are playing, but sometimes the role can become bigger than the actual person. How many people call Sylvester Stallone, Rocky, for example.
    I’m afraid many pastors are really actors. They go onstage and play a role. Some of them play very good roles! They are inspiring characters! They move us, they motivate us. Their scripts contain a lot of good information and truths. But the fact is, they are not really that image they play in front of the church. They go home and kick off their shoes and live a real life that we may know very little or nothing about. This can be just as true of the holy man in dignified robe as it is of the cool hipster pastor. Things are not always as they seem.
    The question is, what happens when you find out that the person isn’t the image you thought he was? What does this do to your faith? What does it do to your perception of the church?

    This is an excellent analysis. It helps me a lot.

  179. Law Prof wrote:

    Timothy McVeigh murdered 170 people in cold blood and maimed hundreds more, but hey, your 3 year old just told a fib–the three year old’s no better, it’s all the same. That’s a lie from hell.

    Agreed. A lie from the father of lies. But hey, they swear up and down they can ‘prove it’ from Scripture.

  180. AvaW wrote:

    There are lots of good people at CP. And many of us are hurting, confused, and unsure what we should do next…

    The problem I have is that as a single person, there are very few churches that would include me in everything and not shove me off in the Singles group (avoid the singles group!). At Cross Point, I don’t feel like I stick out like a sore thumb. So, I’m here for now. As for the future, I don’t know. Like ypu said, there are a lot of good people… I just don’t know.

  181. Patriciamc wrote:

    but I do think he is immensly talented as a preacher

    maybe the ‘talent’ needed in a Christian minister is more of the kind we identify as the fruit of the Holy Spirit ????

    good speakers are a dime a dozen, they come and they go, and apparently in the mega-churches, they call in a large fee for their ‘services’ …. so I wouldn’t call what they do a ‘talent’ given to them by God, although the strange thing is that God USES some very broken people for good and that mystery is something that might keep us hopeful as human persons who are flawed ourselves 🙂

  182. dee wrote:

    @ AvaW:
    I have a suggestion for all of you. Many do not understand the connection of your church with the ARC. They are the ones calling the shots here, more so than Rick Warren. Dino Rizzo showing up at your church was no coincidence. You do know that he is the adultery expert of the ARC since he, as a pastor, allegedly put his mistress up in a condo.
    We have written a number of article about the ARC (an Rizzo) and I will be linking all of them in a permanent page on our blog in the next few weeks. If you church is going thru transition, make sure that this issue is discussed. They control everything, including extremely generous compensation packages for pastors. I mean lotsa $$$$.

    This is something I’ll definitely keep my eye on and will report back if I hear anything suspicious.

  183. Lea wrote:

    Wisdom from Pete’s Twitter:
    “Just remember that often the hateful, negative, criticism you received was more about “their” story than “yours”.”
    Of course, sometimes it’s just about y

    That actually made me laugh. I think he had something similar on Facebook. It’s going to be interesting to see what he posts as news spreads.

  184. Just stop! Everyone! You’re spreading lies and hurting innocent people. Don’t you have anything better to do? Why don’t you focus on your own family and church instead of spreading rumors that aren’t even close to the truth. You should be ashamed.
    @ Anna:

  185. @ siteseer:
    How do you that World War I really happened, Stephen? Were you in the trenches in France or are you just speculating that the alleged war wasn’t just a global conspiracy to discredit and disarm Germany. 😉

  186. Law Prof wrote:

    You need to seek Jesus, because no matter how inspiring the words you heard, no matter how talented you thought the speaking was (probably not as genuinely talented, insightful or inspiring as a loving, nigh worshipful follower thinks), no matter how good the feelings you got, I sincerely doubt you were getting the real deal, the love of Christ.

    I think we, from the “good” staff people and from our small groups. I’ve met and served with some great Christ-centered people at CP, and they’re some of the ones Pete betrayed with his attitude and his actions, and the leaders beyrayed with their lies.

  187. AvaW wrote:

    pray for us, please. There are lots of good people at CP. And many of us are hurting, confused, and unsure what we should do next…

    Praying.

  188. Lea wrote:

    You know, with all the talk about ‘don’t gossip’ I guess it’s not surprising that people keep things on the QT, but I always figured people at church would have to know about these things, because of gossip? I don’t know if that made any sense.

    If the leadership of churches were as devoted to keeping their standards high as the pew people are to not gossiping, things would be much better!

    I have seen people hold to the rule of not gossiping to ridiculous lengths.

  189. Janna L. Chan wrote:

    In other words, does it make sense for Pete Wilson and other Cross Point leaders to communicate the following, “we won’t be upfront with you about our moral behavior or how we spend your money but we’ll still condemn you for going to secondary sources of information to try and ascertain the truth?”

    I think that what it communicates is that people honestly don’t feel they have the right to know the truth, and you have to wonder where they pick up this attitude.

  190. Pete’s Twitter – assuming it is Pete posting – is already starting with Matthew 5:44. Apparently we are all a bunch of persecutors.

  191. roebuck wrote:

    refugee wrote:

    “but God is Judge. The Bible says so. Therefore, if you protest judgement, you are saying all you want is a 24/7 warm-and-fuzzy god.”

    Not what I said. Kindly do not put into quotes attributed to me things I did not say.

    Listen, all I wanted to do was point out the tendency for people to blow off Christianity because they found this or that verse uncomfortable. Whatever you THOUGHT I meant, that’s what I meant.

    Okay. I have come close to blowing off Christianity not because of “this” or “that” verse but a whole boatload of verses that, put together, make the deity out to be a monstrous tantrum throwing toddler. Which is every bit as dishonoring to God as calling him just a warm fuzzy, which in some cases can take the form of dissing troubled people by appearing to lump them in with those wanting warm fuzzies 24/7.

    My triggers were set off because for some reason, some of my near and dear cannot seem to stand it when I talk about God’s love and feel compelled to jump in and remind me of his holiness and judgment to… I’m not sure what. To balance the conversation?

    And yet if I do the same thing (injecting love into a conversation about God’s holiness — which to be frank makes him sound detached and unloving and unapproachable, yet I don’t think Christ would have died for us if that were completely the case), I get accused of not really being a Christian! And of wanting a warm fuzzy God that I can control!

    You used the same words they use, in much the same way. Please forgive me for lumping you in with them just because I could not see any difference between your words and theirs.

  192. @ siteseer:
    I think that some people would rather have Pastors tell them what to think, as opposed to reasoning out challenging faith issues for themselves.

    Therefore, “the truth” is a threatening concept they’d rather avoid directly addressing. Hence, all the subtle and not-so-subtle, “you’re all just a bunch of gossipy speculators,” attacks.

  193. Patriciamc wrote:

    The problem I have is that as a single person, there are very few churches that would include me in everything and not shove me off in the Singles group (avoid the singles group!). At Cross Point, I don’t feel like I stick out like a sore thumb. So, I’m here for now. As for the future, I don’t know. Like ypu said, there are a lot of good people… I just don’t know.

    I think larger churches often shove everyone into boxes, because it’s easier to control people that way. I went to a large church for a number of years, with a pastor that many people here would have heard of. It has women in major positions on staff, and isn’t neo-Cal.

    But they did try to box everyone up, and I finally realized that it was nearly impossible to use any of my spiritual gifts there. They didn’t even want singles, and though I think meant well, they treated single people very poorly. Megachurches hire musicians, so if you have a gift of music, you have to go elsewhere. They only want large classes to get more people in, and often only wanted leaders who stayed in those same positions for years and years. The only place they ever wanted volunteers was in greeting people, but I did that for three years, and never saw the same people each week. I never built relationships with anyone as a greeter.

    Megachurches really think of members and visitors as numbers, and keeping everyone separated makes them easier to control. They’re always trying for higher numbers, because everything is about numbers, so they focus exclusively on what will bring people in, instead of what makes a good disciple. And they almost always plant their churches in the rich neighborhoods, because megachurches pay their staffs well and require a lot of income to keep chasing those numbers.

    Small churches might not seem as fun or trendy, but I guarantee, there will be some grateful for new people, no matter their age or marital statues.

  194. Unepetiteanana wrote:

    Pete’s Twitter – assuming it is Pete posting – is already starting with Matthew 5:44. Apparently we are all a bunch of persecutors.

    There’s a lot of verses about how much God hates liars.

    “The righteous hate what is false, but the wicked make themselves a stench and bring shame on themselves.” – Proverbs 13:5

  195. Refugee wrote:

    Anyone can be a narcissist.

    Not me. I’m much too important, and wise, to be a narcissist. Narcissism is for the little people.

  196. ishy wrote:

    “The righteous hate what is false, but the wicked make themselves a stench and bring shame on themselves.” – Proverbs 13:5

    “And then when the righteous call you out for what is false, tell everyone on twitter that you are being persecuted and trying really really hard to pray for them even though you are terrible at.” Acts 29:13

  197. refugee wrote:

    Nancy2 wrote:

    dee wrote:
    I am so glad you mentioned her. This church seems to be all about Pete and his wife and kids are to just take it.
    Unfortunately, that is very common. Good times or bad times, focus is almost always on the pastor. Wife and kids are just animate baggage the pastor carries with him.

    I thought perhaps they were props. Isn’t it true that there are denominations where only married men get hired to be pastors?

    I suspect that goes back to the days when they were trying to distance themselves as much as possible from Rome.

  198. Lea wrote:

    ishy wrote:
    “The righteous hate what is false, but the wicked make themselves a stench and bring shame on themselves.” – Proverbs 13:5
    “And then when the righteous call you out for what is false, tell everyone on twitter that you are being persecuted and trying really really hard to pray for them even though you are terrible at.” Acts 29:13

    ESMDV Essential Social Media Darling Version?

  199. Unepetiteanana wrote:

    Pete’s Twitter – assuming it is Pete posting – is already starting with Matthew 5:44. Apparently we are all a bunch of persecutors.

    Guess he’s not used to having adult conversations, like what happens in the real world.

  200. Bridget wrote:

    Well that is an interesting bit of information. Poor Dave Ramsey, let’s keep everything down low for his benefit . . . Who cares about spouses, children, church congregations.

    That moment of rude awakening when you realize you are all just props…

  201. siteseer wrote:

    That moment of rude awakening when you realize you are all just props…

    I used to follow Ramsey on facebook, because I agree with the low debt bit of advice (although some of his other advice is not so great) but he posted something the other day about how married people should only have a bunch of married friends so they can all support each other being married together. Byebye Dave! Ugh.

  202. Unepetiteanana wrote:

    Pete’s Twitter – assuming it is Pete posting – is already starting with Matthew 5:44. Apparently we are all a bunch of persecutors.

    I *like* his last tweet before he resigned, “Whatever it is for you, I’m praying you’ll be able to give your baggage to God as you seek to live wild & free!”
    In the light of Nancy2’s comment that the “Wife and kids are just animate baggage the pastor carries with him” this tweet takes on new meaning.
    Isn’t it great how the tired, burned out, broken, not OK guy with the misplaced priorities was seeking to live wild and free?
    But today he’s being persecuted!
    And speaking of the wife– we can keep in mind she was supposed to have been leading a women’s conference today– hopefully they mentioned her in their prayers

  203. How odd. I don’t remember saying that.
    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Refugee wrote:

    Anyone can be a narcissist.

    Not me. I’m much too important, and wise, to be a narcissist. Narcissism is for the little people.

  204. Nicole wrote:

    This article is full of lies and you know it. Shame on you.

    If I am lying and know I am lying then I would be able to be sued for libel. However, I always tell the truth as I believe it to be.

    Now, since you know that I know that I am lying, you must know me. You have a moral obligation to prove to me how you know that I know that I am lying. Who are you and how do I know you and when did you speak with me to know that I am definitely lying?

  205. Refugee wrote:

    How odd. I don’t remember saying that.

    Nick Bulbeck wrote:
    Refugee [allegedly] wrote:

    Anyone can be a narcissist.

    Not me. I’m much too important, and wise, to be a narcissist. Narcissism is for the little people.

    Ah, yes, I know what happened there. I selected some text, read on a bit further, and then clicked the button at the bottom of your comment. It was Mr Jesperson who made this observation.

    Apologies… mea culpa.

  206. Nicole wrote:

    You’re spreading lies and hurting innocent people.

    Once again, I need to ask you how you know that we are spreading lies. You are making an accusation with no back up. At least I have provided information why I believe this is true.

    Is Pete still in love with his wife and living with her and the children? Please show me that is the truth and I will immediately correct this post. Why has his wife suddenly disappeared from speaking at her conference. Is she taking a long vacation with Pete instead?

  207. refugee wrote:

    I have been pounded with judgment (okay, switching metaphor from sword to sledgehammer) for decades. I’m tired. I need to hear more about His lovingkindness, which endures forever, than about His judgment right now. I am full “up to here” with judgment, and while I’m not throwing it all away, I am a smoking flax, a bent reed, clinging to the promise that a wise and loving God will not choose to quench me or break me off.

    I know how you feel. I don’t know if it is just a Protestant thing, but I find a huge emphasis on making sure we don’t minimize God’s judgement, anger, wrath, impatience. I’ve not been a very good Protestant lately – I’ve been coloring outside the lines by reading Eastern Orthodox and early church theology. EO has its problems, but the theology is pretty amazing. I’ve also been getting quite a lot out of some lecture series by Baxter Kruger from this site: http://perichoresis.org/free-lecture-series/. He seems to get it. He is a big proponent of “The Shack.” All the YRRs seem to hate it, so that seems to be a pretty good endorsement of his theology.

    I’ve been finding good thoughts about God’s goodness, love, care, and patience by going to Christian sources outside of mainstream Protestantism. I wish you well on your journey.

  208. Gerald wrote:

    But pull your head out of your

    Missed this one until now. I think you get it Gerald! Sometimes we love people and they lie to us and it sucks. But that doesn’t mean we should close our ears to the truth.

    Nicole wrote:

    Just stop! Everyone!

    just stop, because that will fix it? It won’t.

  209. AvaW wrote:

    And many of us are hurting, confused, and unsure what we should do next…

    I have been where you have been when my role-model leader friend started having an affair with a woman in the home fellowship group that he was leading. The whole thing was a soap opera as this woman was the soon to be ex-wife of a former roommate and co-worker, both in management in a police dept. I loved this man and his wife and it took years for me to get over what happened. This ex-leader has had a trouble filled life since as the fallout continued. Sin has consequences, very bitter consequences.
    What to do next? Look to Romans 6 for the answer. Real church is not about the image that is spun on a Sunday morning. It is about becoming a real disciple who embraces the cross and embraces the often painful sanctification process. I would suggest that you run towards God and look in the mirror. Deal with what you see. Learn from it and grow. Decide to become the New man instead of burning out and proclaiming that you are done. Church people tend to elevate their leaders, and that practice just sets them up for falls and you for disappointment. Jesus is what is glorious because he is THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE. You can survive the death of a local church because they are not these things. Look for a church that actually helps you through the sanctification process and puts substance up over image.
    That is my advice after being through this same kind of thing.

  210. @ dee:

    “he wives usually look nice, projecting a pleasant mom appearance. The other women try to reflect the hipster image of the pastor who is undoubtably undergoing a mid life crisis.”
    ++++++++++

    ah, yes, the mid life crisis…. not a singular event, as it turns out. (living with 3rd time around, here)

  211. siteseer wrote:

    Bridget wrote:
    Well that is an interesting bit of information. Poor Dave Ramsey, let’s keep everything down low for his benefit . . . Who cares about spouses, children, church congregations.
    That moment of rude awakening when you realize you are all just props…

    Dave Ramsey blocks anyone on Twitter and elsewhere who dares to ask cogent questions. I lost respect for the man long ago.

  212. ishy wrote:

    But they did try to box everyone up, and I finally realized that it was nearly impossible to use any of my spiritual gifts there. They didn’t even want singles, and though I think meant well, they treated single people very poorly.

    I left my large Methodist church for Cross Point because that particular Methodist church was so family-oriented that people without children didn’t fit in. One thing Cross Point does do well is that they put the children and youth into groups, but everyone else is all together so single people don’t stick out. We actually belong.

  213. Nicole wrote:

    Stop looking for clues that aren’t there. You’re part of the problem.@ Dave A A:

    The clue which isn’t there on Facebook, in his resignation statement, or in all his positive statements about his new career is— his wife! Can you explain why this is?

  214. Nicole wrote:

    Just stop! Everyone! You’re spreading lies and hurting innocent people. Don’t you have anything better to do? Why don’t you focus on your own family and church instead of spreading rumors that aren’t even close to the truth. You should be ashamed.

    Nicole, I go to Cross Point. I defended Pete at first, but now there’s proof and from reputable sources, multiple reputable sources. The news is just getting out, so you’ll be hearing more. If you have proof otherwise, please let us know about it.

  215. Patriciamc wrote:

    I left my large Methodist church for Cross Point because that particular Methodist church was so family-oriented that people without children didn’t fit in. One thing Cross Point does do well is that they put the children and youth into groups, but everyone else is all together so single people don’t stick out. We actually belong.

    Oh, I know. I’ve made it a hobby to visit churches just to see how singles are treated. And most larger churches act like singles are a plague on their ministries.

    Most smaller churches can’t afford to treat singles as badly as larger “family-oriented” churches do. Some still do, of course, but those who realize they need help will treat a single person very well.

  216. refugee wrote:

    There are so many parallels that come to mind…

    And likewise, many folks from multi-campus megas like to sneer at the mainline churches and others for going down the slippery slope of liberalism by, say, allowing women to make announcements. Or ordaining women. Or attempting to address any issue of sexuality (from out-of-wedlock birth to gay marriage) without limiting themselves to shunning and condemnation.

    It’s fine for the mainline to get years’ and years’ worth of bad headlines, but how DARE you say anything about my local philanderer who’s a super nice guy?

  217. @ AvaW:

    “However, I knew it was only a matter of time before these stories would be brought to light. I’ve heard all of the stories that the blogger discusses here through the grapevine.

    Most of us knew that (ed. female staff) resignation was a cover up of something she wasn’t discussing–from what I hear, the humility she expressed in that “new season” Facebook update was just PR shenanigans, an act to make sure her husband’s job (he’s one of Dave Ramsey’s most important people) remained safe. When the elder board asked her to resign, I’m told that basically threatened to sue.”
    +++++++++++++++++++++

    so, Cross Point leaders make sue that (female staff) loses her job. Perhaps they did the same to other female staffers.

    And Pete Wilson — how did he fare? how did Cross Point leaders treat him? Blessings and praise? A golden parachute to his next high-paying gig?

  218. Nicole wrote:

    Why don’t you focus on your own family and church instead of spreading rumors that aren’t even close to the truth. You should be ashamed.

    Yes, I am ashamed. Because in the past I silently left an abusive church. I didn’t want to disrupt whatever good God was doing there. I didn’t want to make waves, or violate this verse or that verse. I just got out and saved my own sorry Christian skin. Oh how laudable I was, quietly abandoning others to suffer. How very Christ-like of me.

  219. Patriciamc wrote:

    If you have proof otherwise, please let us know about it.

    She doesn’t. Whenever someone just generically cries ‘lies’ without saying something specific, like ‘Pete and his Wife are still together, there was no adultery/staff shakeout/etc’ they are generally just trying to shut you up.

  220. dee wrote:

    he also claims he “believes in love.”

    I saw that. He’s also a ‘dreamer’. I mean, are you a teenage girl? I’m surprised he doesn’t include a picture of his lisa frank trapper keeper.

  221. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Is that pic at the top supposed to be a church?
    It looks more like one of the industrial buildings around where I work, but bigger.

    HUG, this is the “in* look for lots of mega churches. To look like anything but a church. You know, to distance themselves from tradition and religion.

  222. Kemi wrote:

    So incredibly disappointed. I stand corrected, burn out is apparently not a real thing.
    Also, why on earth do these people think the internet will not find them out and that the best thing they could do is come clean from the beginning?

    Because there’s always a chance that they can get away with their shenanigans. And there are still plenty of preachers in the limelight who have been operating this way for some time. Just watch TBN and you’ll know what I mean.

  223. dee wrote:

    Pete Wilson does not mention his past job as a pastor nor his education any SBTS on his Facebook page. he also claims he “believes in love.”

    https://www.facebook.com/PastorPeteWilson

    and ANOTHER one takes sick ???
    must be something untoward in the rarified monied atmosphere of a mega stage that insidiously brings these people down, or maybe it just strips them of any pretense ???

  224. Christiane wrote:

    must be something untoward in the rarified monied atmosphere of a mega stage that insidiously brings these people down, or maybe it just strips them of any pretense ???

    I don’t think it’s the stage that brings them down. I think many were probably chosen for their ability to act and not their moral integrity, and they were the wrong people from the start. And the rest, who really dreamed of being megachurch pastors and started their own, were also the wrong people to shepherd a church.

  225. A person getting to Matthew 18:17 is told TO “tell it to the church.” How is that gossip? (“if he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church;”)

    That’s not gossip. That’s bringing to light the fact that real offenses have not been resolved because — the offender has refused to LISTEN.

    “Telling it to the church” is a huge safeguard for God’s people.

    Nothing left to gossip about when wrongs are brought into the light and the church body gets the facts.

  226. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

     GMFS
    … and stands for Good Morning From Scotland.
    BeakerJ (or “Beaks” as she is more properly known) may prefer GMFE. Anyway, without further ado:

    Ick Blubneck, how about we go for GMFGB? I like to be all cuddly & inclusive.

  227. @ Nicole:
    Nicole, if your Church is accepting non-profit tax breaks subsidized by the public, then everyone has the right to ask questions about how it spends its money. Right now, Cross Point looks like a for-profit business masquerading as a non-profit Church to me.

    If your Church is a serious Christian organization, then it should welcome and respond to questions about its moral character, as opposed to denigrating those who ask them.

    If you want to call Dee, who is standing behind what she says with her real name, a liar, then perhaps you should have the courage to do so under your real name.

    If what people are posting on blogs about your Church bothers you, then don’t read or comment on those blogs, as opposed to telling others that you can say your peace but they can’t.

    In short, grow up. And please pass that message on to your Pastors, as well.

  228. @ Patriciamc:

    I wasn’t aware I was with-holding grace. As I said before, I just found the repeated complaints about everything being “speculation” to be odd.

    I don’t understand slavish devotion to any church or pastor, whether it’s Cross Point, Furtick’s Elevation, or Driscoll’s former Mars Hill, or whatever.

    The “church” is actually comprised of any and all believers in Jesus, not just one denomination, or a group of 150 to 5,000 people who attend in one specific location once or twice a week in a brick and mortar with a steeple on it.

  229. Beakerj wrote:

    how about we go for GMFGB?

    A lot would depend on what mood I was in. I quite like “Good Morning from Blighty”…

    GMFW almost looks like a word in Welsh – dinnae ken whether we’ve any Welsh Wartburgers, mind.

  230. Nicole wrote:

    Just stop! Everyone! You’re spreading lies and hurting innocent people. Don’t you have anything better to do? Why don’t you focus on your own family and church instead of spreading rumors that aren’t even close to the truth. You should be ashamed.

    Welcome aboard, Pete!

  231. Patriciamc wrote:

    One thing Cross Point does do well is that they put the children and youth into groups, but everyone else is all together so single people don’t stick out. We actually belong.

    Well, that’s something.

    Comparatively easy for me to say as I’m not single the noo (and haven’t been for around 24 years) but I do remember being single. It was easier in some settings than in others.

  232. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Nicole wrote:
    Just stop! Everyone! You’re spreading lies and hurting innocent people. Don’t you have anything better to do? Why don’t you focus on your own family and church instead of spreading rumors that aren’t even close to the truth. You should be ashamed.
    Welcome aboard, Pete!

    Aye.

    I’ve been wondering the same.

  233. Janna L. Chan wrote:

    People would not need to look at so-called rumors and speculation on blogs if Cross Point’s leaders were issuing honest statements about the alleged scandals and financial improprieties the Church is facing.

    In other words, does it make sense for Pete Wilson and other Cross Point leaders to communicate the following, “we won’t be upfront with you about our moral behavior or how we spend your money but we’ll still condemn you for going to secondary sources of information to try and ascertain the truth?”

    And as for speculation, that’s what life is all about, my friend. In your comments, you’re tacitly speculating that Pete Wilson and Cross Point’s other leaders are inherently good at heart even though there is lots of evidence that that is not the case.
    The only alternative to speculating about a troubled Church’s behavior, based on the information available to us, is taking what its leadership says at face value without trying to ascertain whether or not that is the truth.

    I do not believe that blindly following any earthly leader is Biblical.

    Good points.

  234. Patriciamc wrote:

    …but I do think he is immensly talented as a preacher…

    This is what’s wrong with it. Who cares if he’s talented as a preacher? What’s “talented”? That fits for football players and music stars, for chess masters. It DOES NOT fit for those who communicate the truth about Jesus to others.

    Here’s someone who got it:

    ________________________________

    “When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom…For I resolved to know nothing…except Jesus Christ and him crucified. I came to you in weakness…My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.”

    “I may indeed be untrained as a speaker, but I do have knowledge…Was it a sin for me to lower myself in order to elevate you by preaching the gospel of God to you free of charge?”

    “And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.”

    “Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I too will boast. You gladly put up with fools since you are so wise! In fact, you even put up with anyone who enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or puts on airs or slaps you in the face. To my shame I admit that we were too weak for that!”
    ________________________________

    Ava – When you’re talking about talented preachers, when you’re talking about those who boast in the way the world does and who enrich themselves off of you, you’re talking about superapostles; you’re sure not talking about anything that Paul ever did or believed. He warned you about those people. If you don’t get away from this attitude of looking for a talented speaker and thinking somehow that’s a spiritual talent, you’re going to be completely missing the truth, you’re looking for a “deceitful worker, masquerading as an apostle of Christ”. You’ll never stop running after these people who despise you and hate Jesus til you turn that thinking around.

  235. Nicole wrote:

    Just stop! Everyone! You’re spreading lies and hurting innocent people. Don’t you have anything better to do? Why don’t you focus on your own family and church instead of spreading rumors that aren’t even close to the truth. You should be ashamed.
    @ Anna:

    Cultist.

  236. Law Prof wrote:

    Patriciamc wrote:
    …but I do think he is immensly talented as a preacher…
    This is what’s wrong with it. Who cares if he’s talented as a preacher? What’s “talented”? That fits for football players and music stars, for chess masters. It DOES NOT fit for those who communicate the truth about Jesus to others.
    Here’s someone who got it:
    ________________________________

    You and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this. It is my opinion that Pete is gifted in communicating by word the gospel, and he betrayed that gifting with his attitude and actions. If you disagree, fine. My opinion still stands.

  237. Refugee wrote:

    Okay. I have come close to blowing off Christianity not because of “this” or “that” verse but a whole boatload of verses that, put together, make the deity out to be a monstrous tantrum throwing toddler. Which is every bit as dishonoring to God as calling him just a warm fuzzy, which in some cases can take the form of dissing troubled people by appearing to lump them in with those wanting warm fuzzies 24/7.

    My triggers were set off because for some reason, some of my near and dear cannot seem to stand it when I talk about God’s love and feel compelled to jump in and remind me of his holiness and judgment to… I’m not sure what. To balance the conversation?

    And yet if I do the same thing (injecting love into a conversation about God’s holiness — which to be frank makes him sound detached and unloving and unapproachable, yet I don’t think Christ would have died for us if that were completely the case), I get accused of not really being a Christian! And of wanting a warm fuzzy God that I can control!

    I’m just going to suggest this, because this has been something of a help to me. A couple of years ago, a pastor named Brian Zahnd, who has a church in Missouri, and it’s on the Hartford Seminary megachurch list, preached a series of sermons on “The Crucified God.” Those sermons changed my life for the better, changed my view of God (although I’m still working at it) and gave me hope.

    http://wolc.com/watch–listen/sermon-archives/#series-sort_the-crucified-god

    There’s one I like in particular that was preached on March 23, 2014, and it’s called “Death of the Monster God.” I have it on my phone. I listened to it on my way home from work because this discussion has been depressing me. The sermon made me feel a lot better–and Zahnd absolutely does not blow off sin and its dreadful effects.

    Just a suggestion if there’s anyone else out there who has an idea of God with a thunderbolt, ready to smite. Jesus is God’s revelation of Himself.

  238. Patriciamc wrote:

    Law Prof wrote:
    You need to seek Jesus, because no matter how inspiring the words you heard, no matter how talented you thought the speaking was (probably not as genuinely talented, insightful or inspiring as a loving, nigh worshipful follower thinks), no matter how good the feelings you got, I sincerely doubt you were getting the real deal, the love of Christ.
    I think we, from the “good” staff people and from our small groups. I’ve met and served with some great Christ-centered people at CP, and they’re some of the ones Pete betrayed with his attitude and his actions, and the leaders beyrayed with their lies.

    I don’t doubt it, but I sincerely doubt you were getting the love of Christ from your leadership (who aren’t actually leaders).

  239. @ God:
    God wrote:

    Patriciamc wrote:
    Has God seconded that?
    You have no idea..!
    Best regards,
    God

    Always good to get God’s input.

  240. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Remember how every time one of these guys gets exposed on this blog, suddenly all the Defenders of the Faith come out of nowhere with the Official Spin and Church Lady Righteousness?

    Yes, it happens often. It’s more regular than the workings of Metamucil. Or Fiber in your diet.

    “Predictable” is another good word for it. 🙂

  241. Daisy wrote:

    The “church” is actually comprised of any and all believers in Jesus, not just one denomination, or a group of 150 to 5,000 people who attend in one specific location once or twice a week in a brick and mortar with a steeple on it.

    Yes, I agree….

  242. dee wrote:

    Joining The A Group says it all. Pete is in no position to counsel other churches how to do it. But he will be pushed by Maurillio.

    This reminds me of how several months ago, some church had a conference with lots of Famous Pastor guest speakers, one of their guest speakers was Mark Driscoll, and I think the topic he was going to speak on was really laughable for him, something like, “How to Have Successful, Godly Church Leadership”.

  243. Lea wrote:

    I used to follow Ramsey on facebook, because I agree with the low debt bit of advice (although some of his other advice is not so great) but he posted something the other day about how married people should only have a bunch of married friends so they can all support each other being married together. Byebye Dave! Ugh.

    A decade or so ago I listened to Dave Ramsey and thought much of what he said was insightful, and certainly, there’s no doubt too many people in the U.S. are too heavily leveraged. But, as I got deeper into teaching business and accounting classes as well as law, as I furthered the education in that arena (MBA), I came to the conclusion that Dave Ramsey is a one trick pony, not particularly knowledgeable and not very insightful at all–a media creation.

  244. Lea wrote:

    dee wrote:
    he also claims he “believes in love.”
    I saw that. He’s also a ‘dreamer’. I mean, are you a teenage girl? I’m surprised he doesn’t include a picture of his lisa frank trapper keeper.

    You may say he’s a dreamer, but he’s not the only one.

    refugee wrote:
    Mirele put it better than I could. Whenever I mention how despair-inducing worm theology is to me, personally, I get slapped with the accusation that all I want is a warm-fuzzy-god.
    Which isn’t the case at all, BTW. But it’s a great conversation stopper.

    “We are worms….worthless worms!”

    https://youtu.be/f38SupsC93E?t=13s

  245. Patriciamc wrote:

    You and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this. It is my opinion that Pete is gifted in communicating by word the gospel, and he betrayed that gifting with his attitude and actions. If you disagree, fine. My opinion still stands.

    I wonder how you can read what Paul said and come to that conclusion. My opinion is you’re looking in all the wrong places and you’ll never find Jesus where you’re looking, except occluded behind a bombast’s ego. So we will have to agree to disagree.

  246. @ Jessica:

    You may also be making a round about case for churches putting in black jack tables and roulette wheels. 🙂

    I bet some of them will even try it.

    I bet Mark Driscoll implores his church members to tithe more so he can get some cocktail waitresses and black jack tables installed into his church.

  247. Lea wrote:

    How sad that is! It doesn’t fit whatever slick marketing thing they’re going for, but it isn’t authentic. It isn’t good. Old people are a blessing to church. A church, to me, should feel like a family, with a mix of older and younger, and when it doesn’t have that it feels like some part of its soul is missing.

    Even when I was in my mid-30s and went to churches, I still felt over looked and marginalized. Because I was a single and childless gal.

    The churches I went to or see online are obsessed with The Nuclear Family (mom and dad married w/ kids)

    It’s not enough to just show people age 40+ in your materials (and btw I’m in my 40s and don’t consider 40 something “old”), but they need to minister to folks who don’t fit the criteria of “married with kids living at home.”

    You have divorced folks, singles, widows, childless, etc.

  248. @ Velour

    Yeah. What about that?!!

    Methinks Cross Point Church members would do even better with leaders who actually practice the Bible that they preach.

    And Hebrews 13:7 tells us to “reflect upon (or consider) the outcome of their (the leaders who spoke God’s message) lives…”

    Church members are called upon, even have a spiritual responsibility to, look at the lives of their leaders.

    What about THAT?!!

  249. Daisy wrote:

    The churches I went to or see online are obsessed with The Nuclear Family (mom and dad married w/ kids)

    My former church unintentionally clarified why that is. They let on that lots of kids mean high numbers of salvations and baptisms. Lots of nuclear families = lots of kids.

    Also, nuclear families are considered the most financially stable, therefore $$ to the church. Though many of the 30+ singles I know probably were more financially secure than most families.

  250. Deana Holmes (fka mirele) wrote:

    I wsnt to be clear about the kind of mental harm this conception of “god” does for people like me who are already depressed. It makes me sit at my desk at work and cry. It sends me into a depressive spiral. Andat times, it’s pushed me into a “I cannot possibly do anything right for this god, so why bother living” mode.

    Yeah, it is super destructive and I fight with it often.

    I just want to add that it doesn’t seem to do anything to change the attitude of people who are bent on doing wrong, either. I have come to expect the people who rail the loudest about sin and God’s judgement are likely up to no good in their private lives. The threat of judgement always hanging over you fails at both ends of the spectrum.

    If I understand what Roebuck was saying, it’s that we don’t want to move into “cheap grace” (e.g., TT) territory in response to worm theology, either and that’s true. It’s funny how this is hard to define yet it seems like those who truly know Christ have a sense as to where to draw the line.

  251. Unepetiteanana wrote:

    @ Unepetiteanana:
    And now it’s gone …

    (Wilson’s latest tweet)
    Wow that’s just strange. So do tweeters have an “untweet” button which makes the tweet never to have been twittered?

  252. Patriciamc wrote:

    It is my opinion that Pete is gifted in communicating by word the gospel, and he betrayed that gifting with his attitude and actions.

    I hope it is ok if I weight in. This is a very important topic. In our humanity we tend to fall for gifted speakers, but there is a lot of evidence that Paul was a great thinker but not such a great preacher. In his own words: 2 Corinthians 11:6 – “But even if I am unskilled in speech, yet I am not so in knowledge; in fact, in every way we have made this evident to you in all things.” 1 Corinthians 2 also supports this.

    I had heard that Paul was such a boring speaker that someone actually died from boredom in one of his sermons. But just now I found this very interesting article that has a different take:
    https://www.truthforfree.com/html/article_eutychus.html

    As far as I can tell, the model of a preacher speaking to a large group of non-participatory listeners is not the model that the original apostles handed down. It’s possible that Pete Wilson is a very gifted speaker. But even so, the bigger question is what is church supposed to look like? Is a gifted speaker the best model?

  253. Friend wrote:

    Oh how laudable I was, quietly abandoning others to suffer. How very Christ-like of me.

    If it makes you feel any better, they probably would not have listened to you and would probably also have become even more determined to ignore red flags that they saw. At least that is my experience. People do not like to have their lives disrupted by inconvenient facts so they will ignore said facts or change them to more pleasing facts.

  254. ishy wrote:

    Also, nuclear families are considered the most financially stable, therefore $$ to the church.

    Also people with kids are more sticky than people without kids. Parents have lots of magical thinking about church, and if they find a good kids program or youth program, they are much likelier to remain at that church than singles or people without kids. Everyone with something to sell likes sticky customers.

  255. I’ve been off the computer for awhile to enjoy a few days fly fishing. Rested and relaxed, I returned to find this disgusting piece, These guys are so predictable! It seems appropriate to remind you my ‘prophecy’ on TWW’s earlier piece about the poor burned out Mr. Wilson:

    “I fully expect that TWW will post a future blog piece on the Pete Wilson saga and conclude with Paul Harvey’s famous line ‘And now you know the rest of the story.'”

    I just didn’t expect it so soon! Yep, there certainly was more to the story about a not so burned out preacher who jumped out just in time, taking his baloney with him. While I have not read all the comments yet, AvaW’s cut me to the core “… many of us are hurting, confused, and unsure what we should do next …” And while the CP masses hurt, Mr. Wilson has a nice new job; will he serve baloney there?

    And now you know the rest of the story, or the beginning of the rest of the story. It is yet another chapter in the book being written in the blogosphere about the American church which is not the Church.

  256. trs wrote:

    @ Velour
    Yeah. What about that?!!
    Methinks Cross Point Church members would do even better with leaders who actually practice the Bible that they preach.
    And Hebrews 13:7 tells us to “reflect upon (or consider) the outcome of their (the leaders who spoke God’s message) lives…”
    Church members are called upon, even have a spiritual responsibility to, look at the lives of their leaders.
    What about THAT?!!

    Well put.

  257. Max wrote:

    to enjoy a few days fly fishing.

    I love fishing!

    Did you catch? Catch and release?

    What did you get?

  258. @ Velour:
    Trout fishing at Roaring River in Southern Missouri. I catch and release. Caught several nice rainbow trout. The fall foliage was starting to appear in the Ozark Mountains. A great break!

  259. Patriciamc wrote:

    It is my opinion that Pete is gifted in communicating by word the gospel, and he betrayed that gifting with his attitude and actions.

    I was just thinking how this saying gets so put down and mocked in fundamentalist circles:

    “Preach the gospel at all times.
    If necessary, use words.”

    it is often attributed to St. Francis of Assisi, but I think it must have come out of the broken heart of some poor creature whose own actions betrayed his witness to Our Lord.

    For all the mocking and derision of this saying, there is some truth in it, I think. But I always wondered WHY this simple saying has provoked such a torrent of negative responses from certain quarters. Maybe some things are better not known.

  260. Max wrote:

    @ Velour:
    Trout fishing at Roaring River in Southern Missouri. I catch and release. Caught several nice rainbow trout. The fall foliage was starting to appear in the Ozark Mountains. A great break!

    Nice.

    I like Rainbow Trout (or Eastern Brook) for dinner or breakfast, with buttermilk cornbread.

  261. Christiane wrote:

    For all the mocking and derision of this saying, there is some truth in it, I think. But I always wondered WHY this simple saying has provoked such a torrent of negative responses from certain quarters. Maybe some things are better not known.

    I have a friend who is always telling me how much she loves me and how she cares about me and wants to spend more time with me, but she never makes any time for me. So I often doubt her words.

    There are a lot of Christians who say things but have no compassion in their actions. A lot of my non-Christian friends are truly afraid of Christians because of the legalistic lot. I’m honestly a bit afraid of them, too.

    I’ve been making it a game lately to notice the people who devotedly work behind the scenes and in the jobs where nobody would notice all that they do. It’s humbling.

  262. Law Prof wrote:

    What’s “talented”? That fits for football players and music stars, for chess masters

    Maybe they should just hire somebody to give a big motivational speech every Sunday like they do musicians and stop pretending they are anything else?

  263. Velour wrote:

    Max wrote:
    Trout fishing at Roaring River in Southern Missouri. I catch and release.
    /
    I like Rainbow Trout (or Eastern Brook) for dinner or breakfast, with buttermilk cornbread.

    I think I’d have a problem releasing them anywhere but into a frying pan!

  264. Christiane wrote:

    Patriciamc wrote:

    It is my opinion that Pete is gifted in communicating by word the gospel, and he betrayed that gifting with his attitude and actions.

    I was just thinking how this saying gets so put down and mocked in fundamentalist circles:

    “Preach the gospel at all times.
    If necessary, use words.”

    it is often attributed to St. Francis of Assisi, but I think it must have come out of the broken heart of some poor creature whose own actions betrayed his witness to Our Lord.

    For all the mocking and derision of this saying, there is some truth in it, I think. But I always wondered WHY this simple saying has provoked such a torrent of negative responses from certain quarters. Maybe some things are better not known.

    I think it might have something to do with Reformed Protestantism’s exclusive emphasis on the written and spoken word, to the exclusion of all else.

    Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Lutheranism, and post-Oxford Anglicanism are very visual and mystical, and at times apophatic (see, for instance, the late Medieval English work, The Cloud of Unknowing).

    So the saying represents everything low-church Protestants historically despised, even if their own theology shifted over time (Puritan-Calvinist to The Fundamentals to dispensationalism and most recently back to Calvinism), as did their idea of what “the enemy” was (originally Rome, later it was liberal/modernist theology and the Social Gospel, and most recently charismaticism/experientialism/subjectivity).

  265. ishy wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Max wrote:
    Trout fishing at Roaring River in Southern Missouri. I catch and release.
    /
    I like Rainbow Trout (or Eastern Brook) for dinner or breakfast, with buttermilk cornbread.
    I think I’d have a problem releasing them anywhere but into a frying pan!

    Woo hoo.

    Another menu item for Camp Backbone!

  266. @ Gram3:

    ” People do not like to have their lives disrupted by inconvenient facts so they will ignore said facts or change them to more pleasing facts.”
    +++++++++++

    church as sacred cow

  267. elastigirl wrote:

    @ Gram3:
    ” People do not like to have their lives disrupted by inconvenient facts so they will ignore said facts or change them to more pleasing facts.”
    +++++++++++
    church as sacred cow

    Perhaps that’s where Gram3 got the name for the fine frozen dessert Sacred Cow Sundae (TM).

  268. Patriciamc wrote:

    You and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this. It is my opinion that Pete is gifted in communicating by word the gospel, and he betrayed that gifting with his attitude and actions. If you disagree, fine. My opinion still stands.

    That’s fine yet it’s important to note that the opinion in question constitutes speculation. 😉

    As does stating that Pastor Pete started out well and then went down the wrong path. One could just as easily claim/speculate that Pete Wilson has always been a fraud who has never been remotely interested in the Gospel.

  269. Law Prof wrote:

    Who cares if he’s talented as a preacher? What’s “talented”? That fits for football players and music stars, for chess masters. It DOES NOT fit for those who communicate the truth about Jesus to others.

    There are a lot of talented preachers in American pulpits who are not necessarily gifted or called to that position. The blogosphere is awash with reports of ‘talented’ preachers who fail … while many ‘gifted’ preachers continue to spread the Gospel of Christ. The anointing makes the difference.

  270. @ Daisy:
    Thanks, I think Gary Trudeau summed it up best in a cartoon in which Christian politicians who had been caught committing adultery or doing other icky things said, “I have sinned but I am special.”

    Yes, we all sin but apparently some of us shouldn’t be held responsible for our conduct because we’re good at entertaining people on Sundays.

  271. ishy wrote:

    I don’t think it’s the stage that brings them down. I think many were probably chosen for their ability to act and not their moral integrity, and they were the wrong people from the start. And the rest, who really dreamed of being megachurch pastors and started their own, were also the wrong people to shepherd a church.

    I think so, too.

    The pastor we had that seemed like he started off great and went off the deep end, well, as it turned out it was just us who were unaware of what he was like in the beginning, it was not that he changed. 🙁

    I read a very good article recently, it was written more from the standpoint of CEOs, but made me wonder about some church leaders. I’m NOT saying this fits any particular leader in discussion but just that it’s good information to mull over and be aware of- http://time.com/4533133/5-ways-to-deal-with-a-psychopath/

  272. refugee wrote:

    Mirele put it better than I could. Whenever I mention how despair-inducing worm theology is to me, personally, I get slapped with the accusation that all I want is a warm-fuzzy-god.
    Which isn’t the case at all, BTW. But it’s a great conversation stopper.

    I’ve gone through similar with Christian friends, but in other contexts.

    Like, “Why isn’t God answering my prayers for X, Y, and Z,” and the Christian I am conversing with gets angry and retorts, “What are you, Word of Faith,”
    or, “What, you think God is a vending machine, and if you pray, he HAS to give you anything and everything you want, that is SO selfish of you.”

    It’s sad to me how if you go to other Christians with your doubts about the Christian faith or God, many of them always go on the attack, are too hasty to defend what they think is your smearing of God’s name, etc, or they victim blame you, rather than just console you, or have a good natured back and forth conversation about faith difficulties.

  273. dee wrote:

    Dave AA
    You can delete a previous tweet.

    So the question would be why he would delete a simple verse of scripture he’s trying to apply. It’s not as if he specified that YOU are the enemy who’s persecuting him, or anything.
    If I were him, I’d delete the August tweet about losing the excess baggage in order to live wild and free.

  274. Darlene wrote:

    HUG, this is the “in* look for lots of mega churches. To look like anything but a church. You know, to distance themselves from tradition and religion.

    Why don’t they just get it over with by by forming a conglomerate, going public, and selling stock? Pastors can then be real CEOs with a fiduciary responsibility to the share holders, their own pay and perks tied to performance.

  275. Muff Potter wrote:

    Why don’t they just get it over with by by forming a conglomerate, going public, and selling stock? Pastors can then be real CEOs with a fiduciary responsibility to the share holders, their own pay and perks tied to performance.

    Oh why would they do that? The whole point of being the leader of a megachurch in America is there are so few people you are responsible to! It’s not at all like being the CEO of a too big to fail bank, called to account by the Congress and the SEC and the shareholders and the BBB and so on and so forth. Naw, running a mega, you don’t even have to present a balance sheet to your contributors! It’s all a black box, and tax exempt, to boot. Such a deal!

  276. Law Prof wrote:

    I wonder how you can read what Paul said and come to that conclusion. My opinion is you’re looking in all the wrong places and you’ll never find Jesus where you’re looking, except occluded behind a bombast’s ego. So we will have to agree to disagree.

    Dude, come on. You don’t know me or my relationship with Christ. What gives with the anger?

  277. roebuck wrote:

    I believe most of us have done that at various times, or continuously throughout our life. I know I have. I’m just saying…, well, what am I saying? I quit. No matter what I say will be misunderstood, so I just quit.

    No need to quit roebuck. I too believe that God gets pissed-off, but not for the same reasons that many evangelicals or religionists in general claim he does. I think that more often than not, he just sits back and lets us reap the consequences of our own bad actions.

  278. Ken F wrote:

    It’s possible that Pete Wilson is a very gifted speaker. But even so, the bigger question is what is church supposed to look like? Is a gifted speaker the best model?

    There’s more to Cross Point than just a gifted speaker, and no Pete’s not that charasmatic, but he did have good points (he just wasn’t following his own advice)). What has always drawn me is the kind people who have reflected Christ.

  279. Patriciamc wrote:

    Law Prof wrote:

    I wonder how you can read what Paul said and come to that conclusion. My opinion is you’re looking in all the wrong places and you’ll never find Jesus where you’re looking, except occluded behind a bombast’s ego. So we will have to agree to disagree.

    Dude, come on. You don’t know me or my relationship with Christ. What gives with the anger?

    I’m not angry, dudette, not saying I know your personal relationship with God, not saying you don’t know Christ, just saying you’re not going to see him very clearly if you keep looking for great speakers and great men and dynamic leaders, just saying if you’re at the place you’re at, that’s some evidence you’re looking for Jesus in all the wrong places. And while that may make you angry, darn it, it’s the truth.

  280. @ Dee Holmes (fka mirele):

    My comment was pure snark and theatre of the absurd. But yeah, ya’ got me there. Never underestimate American ingenuity when it comes to financial chicanery. These guys already play their 501-c3 exemptions to the hilt (such a deal!) and get away with it.

  281. Muff Potter wrote:

    Why don’t they just get it over with by by forming a conglomerate, going public, and selling stock? Pastors can then be real CEOs with a fiduciary responsibility to the share holders, their own pay and perks tied to performance.

    There are standards for publically-traded companies, you’re subject to Sarbox and the PCAOB, the SEC regulates you, you must make financials public, execs must certify their accuracy at risk of going to prison, you must make notes to the financials explaining anything that shareholders should have a reason to know, if you’re public, you’re subject to the U.S. Supreme Court decision in Basic v. Levinson, which established the fraud on the market theory that demands truth-telling from executives, for goodness sakes, if you go public you must set up whistle blower systems that vigorously protect the rights and anonymity of those who want to tell on executive wrong-doers.

    The reason Pete Wilson, Mark Driscoll, Perry Noble, James MacDonald, etc. would never go public is because it’s one heck of a lot more difficult to get away with absolute murder there. If you behave like Enron or WorldCom, no way you want to go public.

  282. Law Prof wrote:

    I’m not angry, dudette, not saying I know your personal relationship with God, not saying you don’t know Christ, just saying you’re not going to see him very clearly if you keep looking for great speakers and great men and dynamic leaders, just saying if you’re at the place you’re at, that’s some evidence you’re looking for Jesus in all the wrong places. And while that may make you angry, darn it, it’s the truth.

    You’re out of line. I said I think that Pete’s a good preacher and that I enjoy his message. That’s it. That does not mean that I’m looking for God in all the wrong places. It does not mean that I’m blindly following anyone. I like Pete’s preaching, but I see that what he has done is wrong. So, since you feel free to say all this about me, I feel free to say this about you: given your over-reaction to an issue in which you “don’t have a dog in this fight,” I believe you’re projecting your own issues on to this one. Deal with your own issues and please stay out of mine. I will not engage with you again.

    For everyone else, please remember that as news spreads, people from Cross Point are going to be doing searches and coming across this blog, so please be kind and not say things like they’re being swayed by charismatic speakers, etc. Reflect Christ.

    By the way, just whom do you think tipped the staff off about this blog? Based on one staff-person’s reaction, I betted that if there really was a problem with Pete, that they’d come here anonymously and share with Dee and Deb. So, how’s that for blindly following a charismatic speaker and supposedly looking for God in all the wrong places?

  283. Patriciamc wrote:

    Ken F wrote:
    It’s possible that Pete Wilson is a very gifted speaker. But even so, the bigger question is what is church supposed to look like? Is a gifted speaker the best model?
    There’s more to Cross Point than just a gifted speaker, and no Pete’s not that charasmatic, but he did have good points (he just wasn’t following his own advice)). What has always drawn me is the kind people who have reflected Christ.

    I went to a mega church for awhile at the invitation of a friend. There were many kind people that I got to know, people who did charitable work in the community, stand up Christians from all backgrounds (including ethnic backgrounds). That’s a testament to them, not to the church or to the senior pastor (who was forced to step down when he had an affair).

    I had ‘seen the writing on the wall’ – that something was wrong – given the senior pastor’s arrogance and his digs at his sweet, modestly dressed wife, in her row as he stood at the pulpit. I thought, “What is this about? What is going on.” I left the mega church.

    On the commute bus months later, after he was forced out from the affair, another church member was on her cell phone talking about the implosion, the people who left, the betrayal. She said that she’d put too much faith in the senior pastor and that she had to remember who the real church was — all of them — and to focus on Jesus.

    Some are called to stay at churches, others are called to leave.

    You’re a lovely person and I appreciate your candor here. I’m very sorry for all of you at that church…for whatever is really going on and has gone on.

  284. Velour wrote:

    You’re a lovely person and I appreciate your candor here. I’m very sorry for all of you at that church…for whatever is really going on and has gone on.

    Thank you, hun. Hugs for you! CP has some really good people who have done a lot in the community in the name of Christ, more than any other church that I’ve gone to. I just worry that this is going to affect the church’s credibility and hurt the good work these people have done, and hurt the gospel!

  285. Patriciamc wrote:

    You’re out of line. I said I think that Pete’s a good preacher and that I enjoy his message. That’s it. That does not mean that I’m looking for God in all the wrong places. It does not mean that I’m blindly following anyone. I like Pete’s preaching, but I see that what he has done is wrong. So, since you feel free to say all this about me, I feel free to say this about you: given your over-reaction to an issue in which you “don’t have a dog in this fight,” I believe you’re projecting your own issues on to this one. Deal with your own issues and please stay out of mine. I will not engage with you again.

    For everyone else, please remember that as news spreads, people from Cross Point are going to be doing searches and coming across this blog, so please be kind and not say things like they’re being swayed by charismatic speakers, etc. Reflect Christ.

    By the way, just whom do you think tipped the staff off about this blog? Based on one staff-person’s reaction, I betted that if there really was a problem with Pete, that they’d come here anonymously and share with Dee and Deb. So, how’s that for blindly following a charismatic speaker and supposedly looking for God in all the wrong places?

    Patricia –

    I really wasn’t angry, that’s one of the unfortunate things about the net, one doesn’t see facial expressions, hear tone of voice, doesn’t have anything but the written word.

    Look, anytime I hear someone talk about talented speakers and preachers and this being a gift from God, I go back to the Apostle Paul, who was anything but, I go back to his description of the superapostles, and I just know that person is missing it. You’re missing it, Patricia, flat out missing it. And if you don’t undo yourself from this notion and get away from the paradigm, you’ll just find another talented preacher, as you reckon it, and be right back listening to a possible sociopath each Sunday morning. Don’t do that to yourself.

  286. Patriciamc wrote:

    I said I think that Pete’s a good preacher

    Mark Dever was the most interesting preacher I remember. He’s still wrong about stuff. Good preaching and being a good person or just being right don’t always go hand in hand.

    I’ve also been fooled by skilled liars.

    Which, if it isn’t clear, is to say I support you. You have your eyes open and are willing to hear the truth, good or bad. That’s all we can do.

  287. Dave A A wrote:

    Mercy’s Mama wrote:

    @ Dave A A:
    Omg I loathe that guy….

    I apologized to the “churchleaders” but that was Nieuwhof as well. Here are a couple lowlights, for those who don’t want to go to the article.
    “The reality is that small church pastors also leave their ministries, experience burnout and suffer moral failure every day.
    You just never hear about it because those stories don’t make the news. (Please note, neither the exit of Pete or Perry involves moral failure.)”
    Assuming he didn’t know about Pete’s moral failure– how can he say this about Perry, who confessed to drunkenness and neglecting his family?
    Or this:
    “Some writers and social media commentators have taken cheap shots. Man, that breaks my heart. I hope this post is the opposite of taking shots at anyone.
    The mission of the church and its leaders is too important to do that.”

    They are ALL master manipulators, they can’t make it to the top if their spheres without selling their souls. I think a few may not even realize the depths of their delusions….maybe? That Nieuwhof guy makes me insane, I have a physical reaction to his postings. I tried to go back and read the comments you were talking about but they wouldn’t load… probably best for my mental health lol

  288. Patriciamc wrote:

    It is my opinion that Pete is gifted in communicating by word the gospel, and he betrayed that gifting with his attitude and actions.

    What was helpful for me was being taught that the gift does not validate the gifted but rather the Giver.

  289. Law Prof wrote:

    it. You’re missing it, Patricia, flat out missing it. And if you don’t undo yourself from this notion and get away from the paradigm, you’ll just find another talented preacher, as you reckon it, and be right back listening to a possible sociopath each Sunday morning. Don’t do that to yourself.

    Just stop. You’re so off-base. Just stop. Let me say this politely, about me, you don’t know what you’re talking about.

    Enough.

  290. Law Prof wrote:

    You’re missing it, Patricia, flat out missing it. And if you don’t undo yourself from this notion and get away from the paradigm, you’ll just find another talented preacher, as you reckon it, and be right back listening to a possible sociopath each Sunday morning. Don’t do that to yourself.

    Oh yeah, and you apparently didn’t read the last paragraph in my response to you.

  291. Law Prof wrote:

    And if you don’t undo yourself from this notion and get away from the paradigm, you’ll just find another talented preacher, as you reckon it, and be right back listening to a possible sociopath each Sunday morning.

    If you listen to a bad preacher, is that some assurance that he won’t be a sociopath? Or narcissist? People like Pete are skilled liars. They fool everyone. That is how they sneak in. The question is how you move forward when you find out.

  292. @ Patriciamc:
    Patricia, I know you’re upset and I’m trying to see your perspective. However, that’s getting harder and harder to do because a theme that’s come up in your comments, on both this post and the one about Cross Point preceding it, is that other people don’t have a right to their opinions about Pete Wilson and the Church from which he recently resigned.

    In other words, you can say your peace about Wilson and Cross Point, but the rest of us cannot. You also seem to believe that what you’re posting is objective information, but all I’m reading appears to be raw emotionally-driven speculation that’s not backed up by facts of any kind.

    In particular, your statements about the Church’s focus, theology, and day-to-day activities seem to be contradicted by Cross Point’s official positions on these matters as revealed by the research others have done.

    As I stated in a comment above, there are many reasons why Cross Point’s problems are the business of everyone, not just the people who attend the Church, many of whom seem to have no idea how it is run on a day-to-day level, interestingly. If Cross Point quits making the public subsidize its non-profit Church tax breaks, I’ll be happy to stop talking about the Church, for example.

    As for accusing others of being angry and unkind, you sarcastically speculated, in the last post about this subject, that I and others were critiquing Wilson’s and Cross Point’s actions solely because we wanted to see the Church fall victim to a juicy scandal.

    Was that a kind or constructive thing to suggest repeatedly? Did you have any factual information to back up your speculation that others commenting on this blog want to harm the Church?

    “For everyone else, please remember that as news spreads, people from Cross Point are going to be doing searches and coming across this blog, so please be kind and not say things like they’re being swayed by charismatic speakers, etc. Reflect Christ.”

    I think that people from Cross Point are capable of and responsible for making up their own minds about information they read online.

    Certainly, censoring information in the way you are suggesting it be censored does not seem aligned with TWW goals to me.

    Of course, I defer to Dee and Deb on that matter.

    Again, I know you’re going through a lot of trauma and I’m trying to see your perspective, Patricia. However, please understand that you’re not likely to have positive engagements with others if you refuse to acknowledge that they have a right to express their opinions about the subject matter of this blog post.

    Thanks.

  293. @ Patriciamc:

    The gospel will go on quite well without CP, neither CP nor Pete Wilson has hurt the gospel, for Jesus is the essence of the gospel, and He needs neither you nor me nor any talented preacher with a pulpit, several book deals, a few dozen spotlights and a fistful of dollars. Any work that was done in Jesus’ name will carry on no matter what; any work that is done for CP will not, that work was wasted anyway.

    C’est la vie.

  294. Lea wrote:

    If you listen to a bad preacher, is that some assurance that he won’t be a sociopath? Or narcissist? People like Pete are skilled liars. They fool everyone. That is how they sneak in. The question is how you move forward when you find out.

    I’ve listened to some dismally bad preachers who I believe were sociopaths, so you’re right, that’s no guarantee at all–it’s just that being so bad, they weren’t able to draw quite as many people to them as the somewhat better ones (note: I didn’t say “great” or even “good”, just said “better”).

    I’ve never heard a preacher who was a brilliantly talented speaker; the average Ted Talk speaker would absolutely destroy the best of them–it’s like Christian movies, which typically have hack writers, hack directors and one legit actor, albeit C-list, such as Brian Dennehy, surrounded by a cast suitable for your local community theater (fingernails on chalkboards excruciating), the talent pool is such that poor speakers like Mark Driscoll and John Piper and are hailed as speaking geniuses. Very tired of this pounding, relentless mediocrity.

    In any event, it’s not about big stages anyway, and that’s why anyone who points themselves at the big stage at the mega each week is looking for Jesus in all the wrong places.

  295. Patriciamc wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    You’re a lovely person and I appreciate your candor here. I’m very sorry for all of you at that church…for whatever is really going on and has gone on.
    Thank you, hun. Hugs for you! CP has some really good people who have done a lot in the community in the name of Christ, more than any other church that I’ve gone to. I just worry that this is going to affect the church’s credibility and hurt the good work these people have done, and hurt the gospel!

    You are welcome!

    I agree with you that it can hurt the church’s credibility and the Gospel witness. But Christ will pursue and call people to Him no matter what happens in our churches.

  296. Patriciamc wrote:

    Law Prof wrote:

    it. You’re missing it, Patricia, flat out missing it. And if you don’t undo yourself from this notion and get away from the paradigm, you’ll just find another talented preacher, as you reckon it, and be right back listening to a possible sociopath each Sunday morning. Don’t do that to yourself.

    Just stop. You’re so off-base. Just stop. Let me say this politely, about me, you don’t know what you’re talking about.

    Enough.

    there is something to think about:

    the Holy Spirit does not draw attention to Himself, instead He points to Christ

    if someone wants to ‘minister’, but they are basically entertainers, and in great need of attention, I’m not sure that the ministry is a place where they can point to Christ and resist trying to draw attention to themselves

    if entertaining is your proper job, then that is what would work best for you;
    if you are focused on Christ, without thought of ‘self-glorification’, high-salaries, fame, being a published author, recognition among your peer group of other famous ‘pastors’, etc., etc. ….. then you just might be able to sustain the intensity of ministry to people in the Name of the Lord

    if you want all the ‘goodies’ though, best leave the Church be and move on

  297. Patriciamc wrote:

    Just stop. You’re so off-base. Just stop. Let me say this politely, about me, you don’t know what you’re talking about.

    Enough.

    I thought you weren’t going to engage anymore, least that’s what you told me.

    In any event, I did read your last paragraph, and while it was a little hard to get where you were coming from (either due to your opaqueness or my obtuseness), it sounds like you floated a trial balloon by a member of the inner circle whom you knew and that person then blew the whistle here. Correct?

    If I’m so darned off base, if I’m completely clueless, benighted, if I’m not pointing out an issue with you with your talk of talent in the pulpit and that being some type of virtue, why in the world do you care? If you referred to me as a shyster lawyer, a money-grubber, I’d laugh it off because it’s so off base.

  298. Law Prof wrote:

    I thought you weren’t going to engage anymore, least that’s what you told me.
    In any event, I did read your last paragraph, and while it was a little hard to get where you were coming from (either due to your opaqueness or my obtuseness), it sounds like you floated a trial balloon by a member of the inner circle whom you knew and that person then blew the whistle here. Correct?
    If I’m so darned off base, if I’m completely clueless, benighted, if I’m not pointing out an issue with you with your talk of talent in the pulpit and that being some type of virtue, why in the world do you care? If you referred to me as a shyster lawyer, a money-grubber, I’d laugh it off because it’s so off base.

    You’re not discussing; you’re attacking. I said I liked Peter’s preaching. I did not defend him after proof came out. That’s it. Now, for the third time, back off or I will ask Dee and Deb to step in.

    Do you understand?

  299. Nicole wrote:

    Who cares?

    Hey, are you the same grouchy Nicole who was saying up-thread that the bloggers here are liars?

    I had you figured for a drive-by grouch, but you’re back again. I salute you for your commitment and dedication!

  300. Patriciamc wrote:

    Law Prof wrote:

    I thought you weren’t going to engage anymore, least that’s what you told me.
    In any event, I did read your last paragraph, and while it was a little hard to get where you were coming from (either due to your opaqueness or my obtuseness), it sounds like you floated a trial balloon by a member of the inner circle whom you knew and that person then blew the whistle here. Correct?
    If I’m so darned off base, if I’m completely clueless, benighted, if I’m not pointing out an issue with you with your talk of talent in the pulpit and that being some type of virtue, why in the world do you care? If you referred to me as a shyster lawyer, a money-grubber, I’d laugh it off because it’s so off base.

    You’re not discussing; you’re attacking. I said I liked Peter’s preaching. I did not defend him after proof came out. That’s it. Now, for the third time, back off or I will ask Dee and Deb to step in.

    Do you understand?

    That is certainly your right, Patricia, I’m sure they’ll step right in if they feel the need, they certainly know where I am.

    I am not attacking you, go back and take another look, I am telling you that you have to step back from the talent with the tongue = gift from God paradigm; it will not lead to any good place, it will not enable you to use the gifts that God has given you, it will have the tendency of snuffing them out. Those are not the words of one who hates you and is on the attack, they’re the words of someone who’s been there themselves, felt the sting, and is genuinely concerned.

    I did ask you a question, though, so were you saying that you were the person who stirred the CP insider up to come here and tip off the D’s, is that right? If so, that’s a genuine service. I sincerely hope this, too, is not taken as an attack.

  301. Dave A A wrote:

    Wow that’s just strange. So do tweeters have an “untweet” button which makes the tweet never to have been twittered?

    No.
    You have to click on this symbol thing on the Tweet that brings up a list of options, one of them is “delete.”

  302. Mercy’s Mama wrote:

    They are ALL master manipulators, they can’t make it to the top if their spheres without selling their souls. I think a few may not even realize the depths of their delusions….maybe?

    I think they are many good people in the pews who want to go to church, grow as Christians, know others, and serve. But there are master manipulators behind the scenes at many of these churches and people like Lydia who posts here and has worked in megas knows what it’s really like behind closed doors.

  303. @ Law Prof:

    You’ve made your point to Patriciamc so let’s give it a rest now as it’s getting contentious.

    Many of us have – including you and me – been in bad churches. It’s takes awhile to get our bearings. And honestly, despite the abuses at my ex-NeoCalvinist church by the authoritarian pastors/elders, I miss so many of the sweet saints.

  304. @ Daisy:
    “Nicole the Troll” probably “copied and pasted” some lazy one-liners on a bunch of other blogs and then came back here to deliver one last devastatingly clever zinger.

    I hope this isn’t an example of the A Group’s cutting-edge PR campaigns.

  305. @ MidwesternEasterner:

    Though there is this one very conservative Lutheran guy who hosts a radio show who is hyper sola scriptura…

    I wonder if the guy believes that the Holy Spirit works in people’s lives anymore.
    If someone tells him the Holy Spirit speaks to them today, he asks them if they consider themselves a prophet.

    I find that a pompous response and seems to suggest that to him the Trinity =
    Father, Son, Holy Bible.

    I don’t know where or if the Holy Spirit fits into that guy’s theology. And he is a Lutheran.

  306. I haven’t read all the comments but one of the take home lessons for me can be summed up in two words. Good governance.

    If I ever do go back to church, it would have to have an elected board and fiscal transparency.

    The pastor has to have accountability.

    I do feel bad for the people of this church. If there is goodness there then perhaps something better can be built. It really is up to the congregation.

  307. Velour wrote:

    @ Law Prof:

    You’ve made your point to Patriciamc so let’s give it a rest now as it’s getting contentious.

    Many of us have – including you and me – been in bad churches. It’s takes awhile to get our bearings. And honestly, despite the abuses at my ex-NeoCalvinist church by the authoritarian pastors/elders, I miss so many of the sweet saints.

    That’s a fair point. It does take a while to get your bearings, and I’ve considered that, Velour; if Patricia isn’t reeling and hurt to the soul right now, she’s not human. Three and one half years the other side of the most recent cult I attended, I still feel like there’s a festering wound, perhaps the joust is my old, unhealed pain and her new, freshly-inflicted pain just bashing off one another. It’s true what you say, though, I’ve made the same point three or four times to her, if it’s a ill-considered point irrelevant to her, that’s on me, if it’s a good one and she disregards it, that’s on her.

    But if I’m right here, I sure doesn’t hope she runs headlong into another one of these ugly places on the rebound or stay in an ugly place to “be a light in darkness”, I ran through three such places, always looking for God in the wrong places, over the course of about eight years, and spent my share of time thinking I was light in the darkness doping some good, and am still reeling these years later–wish I’d have stopped after one.

  308. Patriciamc wrote:

    so please be kind and not say things like they’re being swayed by charismatic speakers, etc.

    I’m a bit confused about this, though, because you said in a few other posts up-thread, repeatedly, about what a great show-man and talented speaker this guy is.

    Are you looking for a
    1. preacher who sincerely loves God, wants to help people, consistently lives a clean life style, and who knows the Bible and can teach the Bible well,
    or,
    2. a preacher who is magnetic on stage, has a cool- guy personality, tells funny jokes behind the pulpit, has a trendy hair-cut, wears skinny jeans, and has the looks of a young Robert Redford?

    I’m asking because it sounds like in your previous posts as though you prefer option “2” more so than “1.” -? (I think that’s what Law Prof was maybe getting at.)

  309. Jack wrote:

    I haven’t read all the comments but one of the take home lessons for me can be summed up in two words. Good governance.

    Good point. Which is why I have a high regard for the way Lutherans do things. They have a strong central government (both the conservative and liberal synods), not just loose articles of confederation. Perfect? Not by a long shot, but it does prevent strong men from taking over the pulpit and doing whatever they damn well please.

  310. @ Velour:
    Agree, yet also think the other party bears some responsibility for the contentious nature of the exchange.

  311. @ Law Prof:

    It’s possible her use of a phrase such as “talented speaker” means something different to her than it does to us, in the context of preachers. I don’t know.

    I do think if your only or main criteria in selecting a church is how groovy cool or sexy the preacher is, you are more apt to be suckered again in the future by another cool-beans pastor – who is in reality a huckster, jerk, or a cheat.

    So I got your point. 🙂

    Kind of like in the world of dating. My sister once set me up on a blind date with a guy who was very good looking but his personality was awful – he was very arrogant and rude to me.

    Don’t judge a book by its cover, and all that.

  312. Law Prof wrote:

    am still reeling these years later–wish I’d have stopped after one.

    Thanks, LawProf, for your response to me.

    Also when I was reading books about spiritual abuse there were some people in the books who said that God clearly told them to stay in unhealthy churches. Some turned around. Others didn’t. Now I couldn’t do that…stay. But bless them for praying and staying. I guess if God called me to stay in a place He would give me the strength to do it like He gave them.

    And there are many good people in these churches and we can’t discount that.

  313. Daisy wrote:

    @ Law Prof:

    In other words, people who are considering attending a church should be more concerned with substance vs. style.

    Either that or people should find a group of believers whom they truly know, meet together in a simple place where they don’t have to put on airs and finance massive debt, understand that all have gifts of equal significance and that they are in no need of teachers if they truly have the Holy Spirit, that in fact they can teach each other and learn from each other, share the understanding that if you’re written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, guaranteed by the blood of the Creator of the Universe, signing a church membership contract is blasted nonsense, give their money to the truly needy rather than to a pastoral staff to finance six (or seven) figure salaries and expensive expansion programs, and never again have to concern themselves with target markets, logos, trends, or chasing down and/or disciplining people who head out the back door-because since you wouldn’t be invested in maintaining a system, you’d be glad to see them go if they felt better suited to another fellowship.

  314. Velour wrote:

    Thanks, LawProf, for your response to me.

    Also when I was reading books about spiritual abuse there were some people in the books who said that God clearly told them to stay in unhealthy churches. Some turned around. Others didn’t. Now I couldn’t do that…stay. But bless them for praying and staying. I guess if God called me to stay in a place He would give me the strength to do it like He gave them.

    And there are many good people in these churches and we can’t discount that.

    My wife still feels, six years later, we should’ve stayed in cult #2, felt the Lord was leaning that way. We eventually reconciled completely with pastor (though not really anyone else with whom we weren’t already in a good relationship–but dayenu, seeing pastor turn around and repent was quite enough, thank you), so it worked out, but if I’d listened to my wife and not run headlong into cult #3, where the pastor was a good deal worse and the members were so detached they just let him run amuck like a vicious dog, no telling what might have happened, maybe things would’ve been better, maybe cult #3, which hurt me the most of all by far, wouldn’t have occurred, maybe I messed up royally. My wife and I have pretty much taken turns choosing cults and reaping the rotten fruit, she chose #1, we both chose #2, I chose #3. They say fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me–I don’t know what they say about fool me three times–but that’s what happened to me.

  315. Dee Holmes (fka mirele) wrote:

    It’s not just Driscoll, either. I know nothing about the closest mega near to me, except for the griping when it spent million$ of dollars on a satellite campus in another part of the southeast Valley. The second closest mega is a completely family-run operation. Dad and mom are pastors, the sons are pastors. There’s been a lot of complaints over time, but nothing’s stuck. Not even when it was discovered that the head pastor, who had put himself forward as some sort of financial whiz, had actually filed for bankruptcy. That church has added more services and gotten bigger since that came out. (They were, in fact, the church that was in the building Driscoll is in now, but vacated it for a Marriott ballroom about a mile away where they hold two services on a Sunday.) I took a look at their website, they’ve updated it recently and the first item one sees in the top bar, next to the name of the church is GIVE. Then you get I’m new, About, Bulletin, etc. But GIVE is first. Says volumes to me.
    And then there’s the local church which became a franchise of Hillsong about eight months ago. It’s a multisite, and the location nearest to me has just expanded to two services (in addition to the three services in Scottsdale and two services in downtown Phoenix). Did I mention that I went there at the end of February to see how many seats the auditorium could hold? I forgot my earplugs. I didn’t think I would need earplugs at a church. It was SO LOUD. And so uninspired and tuneless, despite all the singing. I would have had a better time at a black metal concert.
    But don’t listen to me, I’m the person who lost her cool on the sidewalk outside wannabe megachurch pastor Mark Driscoll’s property. But can we get rid of the cult of the senior pastor? *crawls back under rock*

    Sadly, Christianity has become Big Business in the USA. The Laodecian church comes to mind. “For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, I need nothing; not knowing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked.”

  316. Patriciamc wrote:

    This was actually something I wondered about when I left my denominational church for CP. In denominations like the Methodist church, there’s a brand/culture that’s not dependent on one person, plus there’s a structure beyond the local church that can step in when necessary.

    Independent, non-denominational churches are especially dependent upon the personality of the pastor. And when things go sour, there’s no authority to appeal to outside of their enclave.

  317. zooey111 wrote:

    Stephen W wrote:
    But like I said we are all sinners and nobody’s perfect.
    Its amazing to me, however, how many of us manage to go thru life without being at the center of a sex scandal.
    Just saying…..

    I hear ya, Zooey. I just had that same kind of sin leveling directed my way today. On top of it, the folks doing the sin leveling will imply or outright say that you are acting self-righteous. How dare anyone address the sin of a pastor or leader because “You are a sinner too.” Tu quoque at its finest. Imagine if our courts were this way. No one would ever get prosecuted for crimes.

  318. Darlene wrote:

    Independent, non-denominational churches are especially dependent upon the personality of the pastor. And when things go sour, there’s no authority to appeal to outside of their enclave.

    I am now attending a non-demoninational church and yes many go because of the preaching but I don’t think it is based on his personality, that is he is not a big showman. I escaped from a denominational church and the hierarchy dismissive of all but pastors when large problems began to appear. I found that as a non pastor I had no voice, that even if I rounded up the entire church and drove the bus to headquarters I would simply be labeled as divisive. This was after forty yeas as a member and holding just about every position of responsibility possible at one time or another.

    I used to accept the idea of safety in a denomination but now believe it can be a hindrance to accountability for a pastor.

  319. LT wrote:

    Truthfully, that’s really what ARC churches are all about anyway – branding, logos, marketing machines, book and merch sales, videos, social media and entertainment, entertainment and more entertainment. But should the head pastor – the lead shepherd – the person who must feed and love the flock – really be tied up in all of that? For people who think the answer to that is yes, they should stick with ARC churches. Sure, they are expensive. They end up costing you 10-20% of your income for life. But you won’t be disappointed. You will receive country club membership in a 501(c)3 that focuses on all those cool things, leaving little time for honesty, decency, non-coercion and fidelity.

    Uber slick organizations focused on entertainment and growth don’t have a particular need for love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, gentleness and self-control. Those things only tend to get in the way of the multi-million dollar audio/visual systems, third wave coffee bars, four color magazines, ATM machines, book stores, giant conferences, professional athletes and professional comedians as speakers, etc – all the stuff that is promoted through ARC and now Pete Wilson as President of The A Group (how appropriate that the marketing arm of the coolest church in Nashville echoes the sentiment that they are still the ultimate cool kid’s table you want handling your church’s marketing needs. Come sit with The A Group! We’ll make you feel special for the right price $$!)

    If this is true of ARC churches, then they really are just a Jesus Cover for corrupt business practices so a few leaders at the top can get rich. This is corruption; the fruit is rotten at its very core. The best thing that could happen is for Cross Point Church to crumble and fold. If we were talking about an abusive cult wouldn’t we say the same thing? Well, everything that ARC stands for is the opposite of imitating Jesus Christ. Entertainment has nothing to do with worshiping the Living God. The people attending this church need to flee out of that place. I say this as a former cult member who woke up and came to my senses.

  320. Patriciamc wrote:

    There’s more to Cross Point than just a gifted speaker, and no Pete’s not that charasmatic, but he did have good points (he just wasn’t following his own advice)). What has always drawn me is the kind people who have reflected Christ.

    I appreciate your perspective from within and your willingness to continue to comment here about something happening in your midst. For my part I have found it difficult to define what a church should look like for myself, let alone for someone else. Your input brings more light to my questions.

  321. @ Patriciamc:

    ” I just worry that this is going to affect the church’s credibility and hurt the good work these people have done, and hurt the gospel!”
    ++++++++++++++++++======

    well, the pastor’s credibility is toast.

    the people who have done good things in the community are great citizens — if peoples’ lives have been improved, i don’t see how anything can take that away.

    The gospel…. i suppose it depends on what that means. if it means a church and its programs, it was always toast. if it’s the middle wall of separation between God and people being torn in two and death defeated by Jesus’ sacrifice, i can’t think of anything more powerful. The shenanigans of Pete Wilson and the pastors/leaders at Cross Point Church are no match for that.

  322. Jessica wrote:

    Coverups. If your church or pastor uses a big PR firm like DeMoss https://demoss.com/about or is a client of Church Law Group http://churchlawgroup.com/our-clients/ or any similar PR or law firm, then you can be assured that you will NOT be hearing the truth from your leadership. The industry term is “crisis management” and church leadership considers a “good thing”. The reality for the congregation is quite the opposite.
    The leadership of your church is using your tithes and offerings to protect themselves and the corporation from you. You are a potential plaintiff, whether it’s an accident on site, sexual harassment, rape, child abuse, or any other crime. Be assured that the cops won’t be called, and the truth will be buried and/or spun.
    This is one early warning system. Your church has prepared itself for the crisis, and the outcome has been determined in advance: they win, you lose. Your only option is to leave before the next crisis occurs.

    “Your only option is to leave before the next crisis occurs.”

    Excellent advice! If the majority of members did this, the religious corporation would have to shut down.

  323. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    dee wrote:
    The wives usually look nice, projecting a pleasant mom appearance. The other women try to reflect the hipster image of the pastor who is undoubtably undergoing a mid life crisis.
    “Mid-life crisis” as in ditching the old lady and disappearing down the road in your new Lamborghini (bought on credit) with an 18-year old big-boobed bimbo in the passenger seat, crying out “I GOTTA BE MEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!”?

    HUG, you are hilarious. Thanks for the laugh.

  324. @ Law Prof:

    “…are hailed as speaking geniuses. Very tired of this pounding, relentless mediocrity.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++

    that would be, this pounding, relentless mediocrity with an elitist complex.

    good grief, i’m beyond sick of it, too.

  325. @ Patriciamc:

    Patriciamc — i am very sorry for these circumstances and how they affect you. you deserve much better. The good people at a church can be a person’s support system. No small thing. I am so sorry it’s being overshadowed (to put it mildly) by the abuse of power on the part of the leaders.

    i hope whatever support system you have there escapes all this. You and your comrades don’t need the institution. You can get together on your own volition, have great food and drink, conversation, play games, pray up a storm, explore the bible, and do fabulous exploits together for God.

  326. Gram3 wrote:

    Patriciamc wrote:
    Pete did the right thing at the time, then went off course.
    I’ve been in a few of those situations with guys I thought were on the right course. All I can say is that I’m so sorry this has happened to you and the other folks who trusted him to be doing the right thing. It is a hard road.

    Or it might just mean that those guys were never on the right course from the get go. Maybe, just maybe, they were good at putting on a front but couldn’t keep the act going when their cover was blown.

  327. siteseer wrote:

    If I understand what Roebuck was saying, it’s that we don’t want to move into “cheap grace” (e.g., TT) territory in response to worm theology, either and that’s true. It’s funny how this is hard to define yet it seems like those who truly know Christ have a sense as to where to draw the line.

    That is a good explanation, much clearer to my understanding (or lack of it). Unfortunately, roebuck’s response reflected, word-for-word in many respects, some discussions that I have found discouraging, even though roebuck knew perfectly well what they meant — and it wasn’t what I understood them to say. (I am referring to a frustrating number of discussions where I was talking about worm theology to someone who had been sitting through the same decades of it with me, who immediately accused me of wanting “cheap grace” and anarchy and no rules… when all I was asking for was balance, and some confirmation that, yes, God could possibly love even me. But then, their definition of “love” is that the deity, who could destroy everybody, and everybody deserves certain destruction because He is holy and we are far from it, deigns to save some) So it’s my baggage, I guess.

  328. From the interview, these words stuck out and wound deeply
    “I’m pulling for you, Pete!”

    Why wound, never, and I mean never have I heard those words in the real world faith communities I attended. Never.

    I have heard other things I care not to repeat. These people do not live in the same universe as many of us. I find the evangelical machine very tiring.

  329. @ Dee Holmes (fka mirele):
    Thanks. I could use some hope. I find that discussing theology with my near and dear simply drives me further into despair. I do not see love in the idea of a god that creates people with the express purpose of destroying them. Even if there are some verses in the bible that surely sound that way.

    And telling me that it’s pointless for the clay to talk back to the Potter is cold comfort. (As in, none at all.) But then, I think you get where I’m coming from.

    I’m not trying to make God over into a palatable image. I just try not to think, most of the time, about the parts that make me doubt His goodness and love. Most of the time. Unless someone in my family is trying to push their calvinist theology on me. Again.

    Or someone else in my family is railing at me about what a monster God appears to be in the OT stories where He orders wholesale destruction (like Achan’s whole family, for instance, apparently as a result of Achan’s sin… did the toddlers and nursing babies knowingly conceal his theft, too?).

    Yeah, that worm theology. Really did a number on some of the family members. What am I saying? Some? No, all.

    I want to love God. But at this point, I really, really hate theology. Hate it. Can barely sit through the sermon at the church half my family attends now. Enjoy the scripture reading and the hymns. Don’t really care for preaching anymore.

    I will check out that link tomorrow, and thanks again.

  330. Christiane wrote:

    dee wrote:
    Pete Wilson does not mention his past job as a pastor nor his education any SBTS on his Facebook page. he also claims he “believes in love.”
    https://www.facebook.com/PastorPeteWilson
    and ANOTHER one takes sick ???
    must be something untoward in the rarified monied atmosphere of a mega stage that insidiously brings these people down, or maybe it just strips them of any pretense ???

    Somehow the word “stage” caught my attention just now, and the discussion of gifted speakers has had me thinking over our decades in various churches (we moved a lot in our earlier life).

    The best teacher we ever had was in a little church, older building, old-fashioned, not built for mega-crowds but more for a typical congregation before the megas came on the scene. There was a pulpit, and the sermon started out there, but I remember that pastor (and he *was* — he was a shepherd in the best sense of the word) usually came out from behind the pulpit and walked up and down the aisle as he talked, usually without notes, because he knew his subject so well, and he made it sound so real. He was a man of prayer, and though he wouldn’t have said so about himself, he was humble. He and his wife lived their faith, and we were the richer for having known them.

    Not a gifted speaker, in terms of being slick and polished. But he spoke from the heart, from the work the Holy Spirit was doing in his life, and from heart-knowledge of God and the Word, not just head-knowledge.

  331. Ken F wrote:

    I wish you well on your journey.

    Thanks. Will check out your link. (smiling) I remember hearing The Shack absolutely excoriated by someone in our former church. Might be worth reading.

  332. Velour wrote:

    refugee wrote:
    Sometimes the best thing to do is just walk away.
    Yes, indeed.
    We all ‘wake up and smell the coffee’ at different times.

    I’d walk away from this Cross Point Church in a New York minute. It comes with the territory of having been a docile member of a cult. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

  333. Dee Holmes (fka mirele) wrote:

    Muff Potter wrote:

    Why don’t they just get it over with by by forming a conglomerate, going public, and selling stock? Pastors can then be real CEOs with a fiduciary responsibility to the share holders, their own pay and perks tied to performance.

    Oh why would they do that? The whole point of being the leader of a megachurch in America is there are so few people you are responsible to!

    I occasionally ponder Marque Driskle’s choice of setting for his career. I’ve read the testimonies of those who were close to him, who tried to speak into his life with the result that he lashed out at them and destroyed them, as far as their standing in his business went at any rate. And I’ve read how much they still poor out their love for him and their gratitude for the way he “led them to Christ” and how much God has used him and what a godly man he was.

    In other words, he chose a setting in which however poorly he performed, he would always get good marks. Being physically and mentally fragile, had he tried his “hard man” act on the streets, I don’t doubt he’d have been put in his place. But by trying it on in a very gentle, passive culture, he was able to cultivate that particular fantasy. Being unteachable and incapable of recognising competence around him, had he tried to build a business that actually had to pay its staff instead of being able to bank on a near bottomless reserve of free labour, he never would have succeeded in making himself a profitable brand.

    It has often been observed here that sexual predators are attracted to churches because their trusting naivety makes them easy to groom. (Bearing in mind that paedophiles often groom an organisation before they groom their targets.) But the wealth and status on offer to relatively poor performers is undoubtedly another reason why sociopaths are drawn to churches. The easiest hunting for a wolf is in the sheep-fold.

  334. Pingback: Wednesday Link List | Thinking Out Loud

  335. refugee wrote:

    Ken F wrote:
    I wish you well on your journey.
    Thanks. Will check out your link. (smiling) I remember hearing The Shack absolutely excoriated by someone in our former church. Might be worth reading.

    I was reminded yesterday that I needed to read The Shack too. William Paul Young is the author. He is a friend of Wade Burleson, pastor here at E-Church on Sundays, and at Enid, OK Emmanuel Baptist.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZAi_VNdqs4

    I think it was Deb here who said it can be a painful subject.

  336. Daisy wrote:

    @ Law Prof:

    In other words, people who are considering attending a church should be more concerned with substance vs. style.

    I think when she says he was a good preacher it is a huge assumption to say her judgement was based on style. Mark dever was a very interesting preacher to listen to and it had nothing to do with stage lights or skinny jeans. But there were obviously flaws that I didn’t pick up on years ago in his theology. Petes flaws were different but also difficult to see from the pew.

  337. Off-topic. I did store other comments from Deb and others here about The Shack and its author William Paul Young previously at the top of the page here under the Interesting tab, the Books/Movies/TV/ETC. tab.

    ****************
    Ken F. posted this on August 21, 2016.
    Deb wrote:
    At some point during the weekend, Paul shared his life story. I remember listening to it and found it very moving. I believe it is important to know Young’s background because it helps those reading The Shack understand certain angles of his book.
    In part two of this series he gives a very detailed version of his story (almost 90 minutes): http://perichoresis.org/the-shack-revisited-orama-great-barrier-island-2014/.
    Trauma alert! This is a very detailed story of abuse.

  338. Velour wrote:

    I think it was Deb here who said it can be a painful subject.

    Yes, the first four chapters are rough, but necessary to set the stage for why the main character is so angry with God. It would not be bad to start with Chapter five for the first time through if there is risk of being re-traumatized by reading about what happened to the main character’s young daughter.

    Baxter Kruger wrote a book about the theology of The Shack. It helped me to sort through some stuff. Kruger was born and raised a hard-core Calvinist, so his turning away from Calvinism does not come from a place of ignorance.

  339. @ Ken F:

    Thanks, Ken F.

    I just checked Amazon and Baxter Kruger’s book about The Shack is available in new and used versions, including for less than $1.00 (used) plus shipping ($3.99).

    The Shack Revisited: There Is More Going On Here than You Ever Dared to DreamOct 2, 2012
    by C. Baxter Kruger

  340. siteseer wrote:

    I read a very good article recently, it was written more from the standpoint of CEOs, but made me wonder about some church leaders. I’m NOT saying this fits any particular leader in discussion but just that it’s good information to mull over and be aware of- http://time.com/4533133/5-ways-to-deal-with-a-psychopath/

    Good article, siteseer. TWW has chronicled several “pastors” who fit the description of psychopath. The following excerpt from the article is particularly relevant to some of the church leaders covered in the blogosphere:

    “How Do Psychopaths Get What They Want? They usually follow a three step process:

    (1) They assess the utility, weaknesses and defenses of those around them,
    (2) They manipulate others to bond with them and get what they want,
    (3) They abandon their targets and move on… ”

    New Calvinism is cluttered with egotistical psychopathic leaders who control, manipulate and intimidate their followers (targets). They use and abuse them and then move on … and get away with it because they do it in the name of Christ!

  341. brian wrote:

    I find the evangelical machine very tiring.

    Brian, religious pursuit can be exhausting … but relationship with Jesus brings joy and peace. Unless a Christian can develop a relationship with the living Christ, religion will always be exacting and demanding … it will wear you out!

  342. Max wrote:

    brian wrote:
    I find the evangelical machine very tiring.
    Brian, religious pursuit can be exhausting … but relationship with Jesus brings joy and peace. Unless a Christian can develop a relationship with the living Christ, religion will always be exacting and demanding … it will wear you out!

    That’s the truth. But what Christians often do is beat themselves up: “The reason I don’t really feel loved, the reason I feel exhausted and joyless in the church, is because of me, I’m just not approaching it with a godly attitude, or it’s because of an attack of the enemy, Satan’s trying to steal my joy.”

    It’s usually not you, and it may be that Satan is literally trying to steal your joy…and using your fellowship so-called to do it.

  343. FJYJames wrote:

    This also was published on October 24, 2016:
    “The Interview with Pete Wilson Following His Recent Resignation
    By Ron Edmondson
    I was delighted to talk with my friend Pete Wilson recently for some insight into his recent resignation from Cross Point Church…”
    http://www.expastors.com/author/ron-edmondson/

    Here’s a “money” quote from PW:
    “I just needed to be poured into for a season. I didn’t want to simply go into the business world. So, the idea I could work behind the scenes and help pastors fired me up! I look forward to being a cheerleader for pastors.”
    “Cheerleader” is only a couple letters removed from “churchleader”, and his buds at churchleaders.com refer to this ex–pastoring career as “spiritual” or “kingdom” entrepreneur.
    Btw The guy asks about his wife, and everything’s hunky-dory. Maybe Dee’s filling our heads with a pack of lies, like Nicole says, since Brandi “wants to be supportive and give me the space to make the decision I think God wants me to make, but she also wasn’t surprised at all when I shared what God was doing.” Or not. “We shall see”, said Big Max (the world’s greatest detective).

  344. Amy,
    Good piece and insights. I’m weary of the “Evangelical Whine-Speak” that, rather than confessing sin, whine’s about being “burnt out” or “broken” relative to committing their sin. Tim’s a predator (IMHO) due to involving womEn rather than a womAn, so, power corrupts and the fact he was caught (no doubt he would have continued in his former path if not caught) gives rise to find out what kind of man he REALLY is as testified by his deflection of responsibility.

  345. Dave A A wrote:

    I just needed to be poured into for a season.

    So many tacky thoughts I’m having.

    I want to see these expastor glowing article folks do followups when the rest of the story comes out.

  346. Darlene wrote:

    Or it might just mean that those guys were never on the right course from the get go.

    No question. I don’t know Pete Wilson, so I don’t know which fits him, and even the ones I’ve known seemed to be sincere, at least for awhile. I believed them right up until I didn’t believe them.

  347. @ JYJames:

    Can I just say I find the expastors site so depressing.

    Another article there says “21% of youth pastors and 14% of pastors, overall, admit they currently struggle with p*rn. And about 12% of youth pastors and 5% of pastors say they are addicted to p*rn.”

    21% of the probably young men teaching your teenage daughters about how to be a nice ‘comp’ girl are looking at this stuff. It’s no wonder we have so problems.

  348. Gram3 wrote:

    I believed them right up until I didn’t believe them.

    Skilled liars are skilled. When you catch them it’s devastating. But I’d always rather know the truth than a lie.

    dee wrote:

    he mentions that his wife knew he was going to leave

    Interesting. I just realized this article came two days ago! Hm.

  349. Patriciamc wrote:

    . I just worry that this is going to affect the church’s credibility and hurt the good work these people have done, and hurt the gospel!

    The gospel is all about the sin of people and God’s grace. The gospel is never hurt when sin occurs because the gospel tells us it will. Te gospel is hurt when people pretend that they are *righteous* believers, only being good when they are good and bad and then forgiven when they ask. Preach the real gospel and the churchill do well-even if that means things change.

  350. Law Prof wrote:

    Satan is literally trying to steal your joy

    Yep, the enemy comes to steal, kill and destroy. We’ve seen his evil hand in so many ministry failures reported by TWW. On the other hand, that which comes against the church falls in three categories: the world, the flesh, and the devil. In these sad examples of “church”, we’ve seen the world and the flesh do its work. Many of these “ministries” are no threat to the devil.

    For individual Christians trapped in such institutions, the devil will certainly try to steal your joy when the fellowship is just not what it’s supposed to be. If you feel that coming on, retreat to a solitary place and seek God’s face to determine if you should come out from amongst them. There’s peace and joy on the other side of Jordan, but sometimes you have to fight for it.

  351. @ Lea:
    Yes- he mention his wife in the narrative. He uses the word *we* a couple of times. I noticed that the interviewer did not ask about his marriage. That is the elephant in the room. I wonder if he was told not to ask about it.

  352. @ dee:
    That interview would have been the best place to offer a denial and call TWW a pack of wolves. He didn’t. Why?

  353. If this report were filtered by “let he who is without sin cast the first stone” thinking, would the report be any different? Pete said from the pulpit many times that he was not perfect and that he had lots of struggles. I suggest we continue to pray for Pete, Brandy, his family, and Crosspoint. And with preachers as well as others in high visibility positions, realize they are human and likely sinful just as we all are.

  354. Lea wrote:

    I want to see these expastor glowing article folks do followups when the rest of the story comes out.

    I’d like to see it also, but not going to happen, because the point is not to build up the church, to glorify Jesus, the point is to maintain a false paradigm, to support a professional class of spiritual leaders, conference speakers, entrepreneurs and, sometimes, spiritual bullies.

  355. This situation with Pete is to worth people getting mad at one another over. I feel bad for the church, those who followed Pete and those who are irritated over lying pastors. Let’s pray for one another as we deal with these difficult situations.

  356. dee wrote:

    This situation with Pete is to worth people getting mad at one another over. I feel bad for the church, those who followed Pete and those who are irritated over lying pastors. Let’s pray for one another as we deal with these difficult situations.

    Amen, Dee.

  357. Lea wrote:

    21% of the probably young men teaching your teenage daughters about how to be a nice ‘comp’ girl are looking at this stuff. It’s no wonder we have so problems.

    I’d expect where you find Comp Men you find lotsa Porn.
    Not much difference between “a Nice Comp Girl” and a Porn-Fantasy Female.
    Both exist ONLY for the Man’s convenience; to service the Man whenever and wherever the Man wants it.

  358. Mike Smith wrote:

    Amy,
    Good piece and insights. I’m weary of the “Evangelical Whine-Speak” that, rather than confessing sin, whine’s about being “burnt out” or “broken” relative to committing their sin.

    I’ve experienced REAL job burnout.

    These guys “burnouts” are as fake as a three-dollar bill.

  359. dee wrote:

    Patriciamc wrote:
    . I just worry that this is going to affect the church’s credibility and hurt the good work these people have done, and hurt the gospel!
    The gospel is all about the sin of people and God’s grace. The gospel is never hurt when sin occurs because the gospel tells us it will. Te gospel is hurt when people pretend that they are *righteous* believers, only being good when they are good and bad and then forgiven when they ask. Preach the real gospel and the churchill do well-even if that means things change.

    Problem is the church–not the true universal church, the Bride of Christ, but rather the institution–gets built up in people’s minds subtly and in not-so-subtle manners by people who love their power and are willing to do ruthless things to maintain it to the point that the gospel and the church become intertwined and it becomes exceedingly difficult for parishioners to separate the gospel, which is simply the good news that Jesus loves you and died for your sins, from their local institution.

    Anything that hurts the latter (such as bad publicity brought on unilaterally by a possible sociopath in the pulpit who wears tight jeans, has trendy hair, uses flowery words, is just so cute and TALENTED and who can’t keep their hands off other men’s wives and hottie staffers) is seen to harm the former.

    If one’s view of the Gospel were intertwined with Jesus rather than the institution, they’d never worry about the gospel being harmed because of the evil perpetrated by an NPD in the pulpit, the thought would hardly occur to a person coming from the proper perspective.

  360. Dave A A wrote:

    Here’s a “money” quote from PW:

    “I just needed to be poured into for a season. I didn’t want to simply go into the business world. So, the idea I could work behind the scenes and help pastors fired me up! I look forward to being a cheerleader for pastors.”

    “Cheerleader” is only a couple letters removed from “churchleader”, and his buds at churchleaders.com refer to this ex–pastoring career as “spiritual” or “kingdom” entrepreneur.

    Ask any High School Omega-minus Male about “cheerleaders” (AKA High School Alpha-plus Females).
    You won’t like what you hear.

  361. I went in the comments section on the Expastors interview and asked was Pete still living with his wife. I fully expect the comment to not be approved.

  362. elastigirl wrote:

    if it’s the middle wall of separation between God and people being torn in two and death defeated by Jesus’ sacrifice, i can’t think of anything more powerful.

    YES! THIS! That and Jesus literally and bodily risen from the dead and eating grilled tilapia with his friends… No other holy book on the planet even comes close.

  363. Lea wrote:

    Mark dever was a very interesting preacher to listen to and it had nothing to do with stage lights or skinny jeans. But there were obviously flaws that I didn’t pick up on years ago in his theology. Petes flaws were different but also difficult to see from the pew.

    I think what you wrote describes the essence of the problem facing new Christians. They don’t have a basis to discern flaws; therefore, they accept whatever the preacher says as true.

  364. Dave A A wrote:

    Here’s a “money” quote from PW:
    “I just needed to be poured into for a season…”

    Two tiresome, obxoxious pseudo-Christian cliches in one sentence.

  365. Law Prof wrote:

    Dave A A wrote:

    Here’s a “money” quote from PW:
    “I just needed to be poured into for a season…”

    Two tiresome, obxoxious pseudo-Christian cliches in one sentence.

    BUZZWORD BINGO!

  366. Ken G. wrote:

    I think what you wrote describes the essence of the problem facing new Christians. They don’t have a basis to discern flaws; therefore, they accept whatever the preacher says as true.

    I also think some flaws can’t be seen from the pew, even for seasoned Christians, except maybe after years. Sometimes it takes a long time of knowing someone well to see personal flaws. You can know someone for years and not know about things they are good at keeping secret.

    And then no one is perfect, and no ones theology will probably map identically to yours. So when the little cracks start showing you may explain it away, or dismiss it, until it’s too big to ignore.

  367. Haven’t read all comments yet, so sorry if I’m missing something, but I don’t understand what Laura Ann being into body building has to do with any of this. I’m not even sure I understand the significance of her interaction with Pete on fb.

  368. @ dee:
    I think the much-discussed (in many places besides this blog) perception that Pete Wilson had a relationships with at least one employee at Cross Point Church is much more significant than any issues pertaining to the state of his marriage, because it raises a serious question about whether or not this Pastor/employee of the Church abused both his informal spiritual and secular professional authority.

    Cross Point Church needs to quit looking for a shiny new Pastor until it determines whether it’s liable for any problems pertaining to its last tarnished one, in my view.

  369. refugee wrote:

    That is a good explanation, much clearer to my understanding (or lack of it). Unfortunately, roebuck’s response reflected, word-for-word in many respects, some discussions that I have found discouraging, even though roebuck knew perfectly well what they meant — and it wasn’t what I understood them to say. (I am referring to a frustrating number of discussions where I was talking about worm theology to someone who had been sitting through the same decades of it with me, who immediately accused me of wanting “cheap grace” and anarchy and no rules… when all I was asking for was balance, and some confirmation that, yes, God could possibly love even me. But then, their definition of “love” is that the deity, who could destroy everybody, and everybody deserves certain destruction because He is holy and we are far from it, deigns to save some) So it’s my baggage, I guess.

    I have the same struggle, myself, so I totally get what you are saying. And here’s the thing- God created the love we do know in this world. The love of mother for infant, for example, that cherishes and bonds to the loved one and will do anything to nurture, provide for, protect, defend. And the love for friends, lovers, family, pets, I mean every kind of love that we know in this world comes from him. The love described in 1Cor 13. God is love and the love we know of in his creation emanates from him.

    So, is it possible that our human love, in our fallen condition, has gone beyond God’s? Are we more loving than God? Does 1Cor 13 describe a better kind of love than God’s love? It can’t be. So there has to be something off in our understanding of God’s love. It has to be misunderstood and underestimated. That’s all I can think. I just keep coming back to Jesus. He is the one part of the Bible I can relate to without all of that dissonance. I just have to keep thinking that maybe everything people believe about God is not accurate.

  370. brian wrote:

    never have I heard those words in the real world faith communities I attended. Never.

    I’m pulling for you, Brian!

  371. Law Prof wrote:

    not run headlong into cult #3, where the pastor was a good deal worse and the members were so detached they just let him run amuck like a vicious dog, no telling what might have happened, maybe things would’ve been better, maybe cult #3, which hurt me the most of all by far, wouldn’t have occurred, maybe I messed up royally. My wife and I have pretty much taken turns choosing cults and reaping the rotten fruit, she chose #1, we both chose #2, I chose #3. They say fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me–I don’t know what they say about fool me three times–but that’s what happened to me.

    Ha, this is a lot like the path my husband and I have taken. Maybe it’s all for educational purposes. It sure does give you an education reading about it would not come close to. But, man, it is a miserable thing to go through and at this point in time, my ability to trust has dwindled away.

  372. Daisy wrote:

    I’m a bit confused about this, though, because you said in a few other posts up-thread, repeatedly, about what a great show-man and talented speaker this guy is.

    Are you looking for a
    1. preacher who sincerely loves God, wants to help people, consistently lives a clean life style, and who knows the Bible and can teach the Bible well,
    or,
    2. a preacher who is magnetic on stage, has a cool- guy personality, tells funny jokes behind the pulpit, has a trendy hair-cut, wears skinny jeans, and has the looks of a young Robert Redford?

    I’m asking because it sounds like in your previous posts as though you prefer option “2” more so than “1.” -? (I think that’s what Law Prof was maybe getting at.)

    The impression I have gotten from Patricia is that she thought he was the first option but he is turning out to have been the second.

    It’s so disappointing and confusing when that happens. I know for me, it took a long time of going, “wait, what happened?” and getting some distance to start to sort it out.

  373. Velour wrote:

    I agree with you that it can hurt the church’s credibility and the Gospel witness. But Christ will pursue and call people to Him no matter what happens in our churches.

    As evidenced by the last 2,000 years 🙂

  374. Law Prof wrote:

    I’ve never heard a preacher who was a brilliantly talented speaker; the average Ted Talk speaker would absolutely destroy the best of them

    You know, that’s very true, you make a very good point.

    I think what happens is that they use certain key words and phrases that mean something to us and we interpret what they are saying through our own hopes, needs, understandings, and where we are in our growth. Maybe we are providing half the message ourselves?

  375. Lea wrote:

    I also think some flaws can’t be seen from the pew, even for seasoned Christians, except maybe after years. Sometimes it takes a long time of knowing someone well to see personal flaws. You can know someone for years and not know about things they are good at keeping secret.
    And then no one is perfect, and no ones theology will probably map identically to yours. So when the little cracks start showing you may explain it away, or dismiss it, until it’s too big to ignore.

    True, and that’s why if Christians are watching the big stage each Sunday for an inspirational message from someone whom they don’t know and who does not know them, they are looking in the wrong place for Christian fellowship (and probably for the love of Jesus). That comes by being in genuine fellowship with people who know you and who you know, being iron to their iron, teaching them, learning from them, correcting, being corrected.

    Our model is garbage. The big stage is garbage. If your teacher has spotlights on him or her, if they go to conferences, if they have book deals, if they don’t come to your house, if you don’t go to theirs, if you don’t know them on anything but a superficial level (as in seeing them over years, through good and bad, seeing them at their best and worst) you are not learning from the right teacher, you’re not learning from one who knows you, who prays for you individually, who probably even cares about you as a person. If that’s you, you’re buying into a lie.

  376. siteseer wrote:

    at this point in time, my ability to trust has dwindled away.

    That’s good, because cult leaders tell you to trust in men, to trust in them (they may not come right out and say it because most of them couldn’t get away with that and they know it), but they’ll lie in a million different subtle ways to get you believing that they’re one whom you should trust.

    If you actually look at the Bible, though, you’ll find that trusting in men is pretty well always regarded as a bad thing. The cultists could look it up also, but they apparently can’t be bothered to, they’;re too busy downloading their guru’s sermons from youtube.

    Trust in Jesus.

  377. siteseer wrote:

    The impression I have gotten from Patricia is that she thought he was the first option but he is turning out to have been the second.

    It’s so disappointing and confusing when that happens. I know for me, it took a long time of going, “wait, what happened?” and getting some distance to start to sort it out.

    perhaps he WAS something of the first option in the beginning and he was wanting to do what was right using the gifts he had been given;
    but maybe it was the fame and adulation and the money and the pride that excaped its cage within him that led him to fail his first love?

    To raise people high, especially when we say they serve God, and then to adore these people instead, that is not ‘Christian’ at all. If people follow Christ, they know He came ‘low’ to help us, and the only platform where He was raised up over them was the Cross. Those men we make into our golden calves don’t survive this process, do they? No. They succumb to a process that is too far from Christianity to keep them intact.

  378. Muff Potter wrote:

    These guys already play their 501-c3 exemptions to the hilt (such a deal!) and get away with it.

    There was a time when lavish living was frowned upon for clergy, at least in the US. I think a few decades’ worth of televangelism caused that disapproval to go away.

  379. Christiane wrote:

    To raise people high, especially when we say they serve God, and then to adore these people instead, that is not ‘Christian’ at all. If people follow Christ, they know He came ‘low’ to help us, and the only platform where He was raised up over them was the Cross. Those men we make into our golden calves don’t survive this process, do they? No. They succumb to a process that is too far from Christianity to keep them intact.

    Paul spoke of lowering himself also, Jesus told the disciples to be the least and last, we’re also told that leaders never, ever get to lead by compulsion, but are only there to be godly examples. No room in any of it for elevating men, putting them under the white hot spotlights (to quote the philosopher Billy Joel).

  380. Law Prof wrote:

    if they don’t come to your house, if you don’t go to theirs, if you don’t know them on anything but a superficial level (as in seeing them over years, through good and bad, seeing them at their best and worst) you are not learning from the right teacher, you’re not learning from one who knows you

    I think you can learn from anyone, they don’t have to know you personally. I wouldn’t give ‘authority’ to someone who didn’t know me personally, of course. Or trust, really. But you can learn from a good teacher.

  381. dee wrote:

    @ Unepetiteanana:
    It is approved, for now. I am taking a screen shot.

    That’s good! I asked them some questions on their first Wilson post almost a month ago– never approved.

  382. @ siteseer:

    “But, man, it is a miserable thing to go through and at this point in time, my ability to trust has dwindled away.”
    ++++++++++++

    the way i see it, life’s too short for misery on purpose.

    (well, let me qualify that — I would willingly enter miserable conditions to help someone in need. i don’t put going to church in that category, though)

  383. @ siteseer:

    Law Prof wrote: “I’ve never heard a preacher who was a brilliantly talented speaker; the average Ted Talk speaker would absolutely destroy the best of them”

    siteseer wrote: “…they use certain key words and phrases that mean something to us and we interpret what they are saying through our own hopes, needs, understandings, and where we are in our growth. Maybe we are providing half the message ourselves?”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++

    hearing a preacher live, I think it’s the experience of being in a warmed-up crowd, along with a God-expectation. the “mmhms” and “amens” build some kind of persuasion-energized atmosphere, and you feel you’ve heard something really great.

    watch it on video, a flat nothing.

    a church service can be the most heady environment, the fumes clouding objectivity ‘like the dickens’ (a little bonus my-grandpa-ism, there)

  384. Lea wrote:

    Law Prof wrote:
    if they don’t come to your house, if you don’t go to theirs, if you don’t know them on anything but a superficial level (as in seeing them over years, through good and bad, seeing them at their best and worst) you are not learning from the right teacher, you’re not learning from one who knows you
    I think you can learn from anyone, they don’t have to know you personally. I wouldn’t give ‘authority’ to someone who didn’t know me personally, of course. Or trust, really. But you can learn from a good teacher.

    I think you can learn from anyone or anything–but when people have a “faith community” that involves learning primarily from one whom they do not know and who does not know them, someone who’s trying to manufacture a life-changing message 52 times a year (or, if they’re a pastor in a mega, maybe 32 times a year), that is not a genuine faith community, that’s a star on a stage.

  385. Daisy wrote:

    @ MidwesternEasterner:

    Though there is this one very conservative Lutheran guy who hosts a radio show who is hyper sola scriptura…

    I wonder if the guy believes that the Holy Spirit works in people’s lives anymore.
    If someone tells him the Holy Spirit speaks to them today, he asks them if they consider themselves a prophet.

    I find that a pompous response and seems to suggest that to him the Trinity =
    Father, Son, Holy Bible.

    I don’t know where or if the Holy Spirit fits into that guy’s theology. And he is a Lutheran.

    The most “conservative” Lutherans are often the most Calvinizing, in my estimation. Especially in America due to the Protestant cultural milieu.

    For instance, take the issue of homosexuality. Martin Luther did not believe in sanctification in this life and he believed the urge to sin is uncontrollable, so there’a no point in even trying to resist it. If he were alive today he may well have ended up more accommodating of homosexuality than today’s conservative (maybe “conservatized” is a better word) Lutherans. He certainly was willing to at least consider polygamy a valid option, after all.

    He also claimed to have seen the devil once and scared him away by throwing an inkwell. What was he, some kind of Pentecostal?

  386. elastigirl wrote:

    hearing a preacher live,

    I recently saw on Twitter that a woman preacher said that her seminary pastor REQUIRED that they give sermons that were only 10-minutes long. If they went over 10-minutes, he failed them!

    I wish I had known that. My ex-pastor (Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley) did the whole Mark Dever/9 Marxist/John MacArthur-ite “expositional preaching”. Time? Usually 1 hour and 45 minutes. 90 minutes if we were “lucky”.

    In retrospect, all it seemed to be was people in love with head knowledge and incapable of practicing what the Word says in real life, real dealings with other people. Legalism and authoritarianism. A 90-minute indoctrination session.

  387. Law Prof wrote:

    but when people have a “faith community” that involves learning primarily from one whom they do not know and who does not know them, someone who’s trying to manufacture a life-changing message 52 times a year (or, if they’re a pastor in a mega, maybe 32 times a year), that is not a genuine faith community, that’s a star on a stage.

    I think you’re being unnecessarily harsh, though. Church is about a number of things, to me. It’s teaching, it’s social interaction with other believers and it’s service. You can all of those things and all of them can be good, and later find out the one doing the teaching was deceiving. Just because there is someone teaching doesn’t mean everything is wrong.

    Certainly I don’t think you should see your preacher as a ‘rock star’ and clearly some do. But let’s not pretend these issues can’t happen in churches of any size, any preaching level/style/quality. They can/do/have.

    And house churches can have problems too. I think we err in seeing one style or another as the only way to go.

  388. Ken F wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    BUZZWORD BINGO!
    If it was delivered winsomely, trifecta.

    And Gentlemanly(TM).

  389. @ Lea:

    “I think we err in seeing one style or another as the only way to go.”
    ++++++++++++

    as well as err on taking ourselves so dang seriously.

    christians are not the gift to the world.

    we are not the gift to wherever it is we find ourselves. Wal-Mart does not brighten up with warm light when we enter.

    (i’ve been the unwitting recipient of christian sunshine-spreading lately — unsolicited kind niceness from total strangers — the circumstances did not require it, it wasn’t needed [it wasn’t wanted] — but for whatever reason i presented as a target for practicing on, or scoring points on, or whatever. it was too much, invasive — very suffocating.)

  390. Lea wrote:

    I think you’re being unnecessarily harsh, though. Church is about a number of things, to me. It’s teaching, it’s social interaction with other believers and it’s service. You can all of those things and all of them can be good, and later find out the one doing the teaching was deceiving. Just because there is someone teaching doesn’t mean everything is wrong.
    Certainly I don’t think you should see your preacher as a ‘rock star’ and clearly some do. But let’s not pretend these issues can’t happen in churches of any size, any preaching level/style/quality. They can/do/have.
    And house churches can have problems too. I think we err in seeing one style or another as the only way to go.

    Yeah, sometimes unduly harsh, very bitter about the experiences I’ve had. One of the problems I have with trying to have some kind of faith community (which as you point out, can be done) within the context of a church with the star on a stage is too often (as you point out) that star on the stage may be deceiving people (it’s not like the position tends to attract an overwhelming majority of honest, selfless, kind people–rather it tends to attract a strikingly high percentage of covert NPDs, sometimes overt if they think they can get away with it) or, if they perceive that the group of which you’re a part might be actually fulfilling your spiritual needs and blessing you outside of them, they will often takes steps to break it up or destroy you personally. Sometimes people can get away with real fellowship for a while in such a milieu, but often not long.

    There are fellowships out there where good things are happening, where people are being blessed, the Lord can use all kinds of things for our good (he used Saul and Nebuchadnezzar as his servants right along with Paul and Isaiah), but do not expect true fellowship to go unimpeded at a church where the star’s on stage.

    Totally agreed that churches of any size can be highly dysfunctional with small time stars on the stage, I’ve described two such places repeatedly (ad nauseum some regulars here would surely say) on this forum, I was an elder at both, and one of the most abusive Christians so-called I’ve ever encountered was in a home fellowship, where one very disturbed, very delusional, Voddie Baucham-following, purity culture idolizing home-schooling mom of six absolutely obliterated the entire fellowship.

  391. elastigirl wrote:

    unsolicited kind niceness from total strangers — the circumstances did not require it, it wasn’t needed

    See the first part sounds good, the later bad! I think it’s all in the practice, which is why it’s so hard to actually define things.

    You can be nice, you can be kind. These are wonderful things.

    Or you can be ‘nice’. You can be ‘kind’. These are terrible things.

    how to explain the difference when it’s really coming from attitude not action?

  392. Christiane wrote:

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    I suppose you might call this hairstyle ‘winsome’ but I don’t know what is ‘trendy’ for this age group these daze:
    http://www.outreach.com/Events/performerimages//pete_wilson/pete_wilson01_l.jpg

    Don’t forget the five o’clock shadow, very sexy. That pic screams a few things to me: painfully insecure, trying too hard, pathetic, puerile, unreliable, self-centered, narcissist. Perfectly fine look for a rock star, mind-numbingly stupid look for one who thinks that they have any license to lead anyone anywhere in the Kingdom of God.

    Can’t judge a book by its cover, folks? Look, when the book is trying SO DANGED HARD to look a certain way, yes you can.

  393. Law Prof wrote:

    Totally agreed that churches of any size can be highly dysfunctional with small time stars on the stage, I’ve described two such places repeatedly (ad nauseum some regulars here would surely say) on this forum, I was an elder at both, and one of the most abusive Christians so-called I’ve ever encountered was in a home fellowship, where one very disturbed, very delusional, Voddie Baucham-following, purity culture idolizing home-schooling mom of six absolutely obliterated the entire fellowship.

    my question is:
    does the setting draw disfunctional people to it OR do people become disfunctional in certain settings?

    Or is it a bit of both?

    I know these strange cult-types get worse generationally, which is a sign that the disfunctional theology/praxis is VERY harmful to impressionable children

  394. @ Lea:

    “Or you can be ‘nice’. You can be ‘kind’. These are terrible things.
    how to explain the difference when it’s really coming from attitude not action?”
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++

    it’s one of those feelings that people get. ‘something felt a little off about that. i didn’t like it. i felt….. uncomfortable. why did i feel that way?’

    it’s a feeling of being used, under false pretenses. it’s sick.

    i think it comes down to motives that don’t match up with the actions. kindness that is unwarranted, too much, too forced springs from something other than sincere consideration for the other person. it’s more about meeting a need in the do-gooder than it is sincere consideration for the other person.

  395. Reading all these stories, I no longer trust pastors with epic hairstyles or no hair. It seems all of these “stylish” pastors are cheating on their wife. 😛

    I wish there are more John the Baptist like pastors. Messy hair. Sticky robe. Hasn’t showered for a month. etc. I know this is crazy but chances are good that they are humble.

  396. Christiane wrote:

    my question is:
    does the setting draw disfunctional people to it OR do people become disfunctional in certain settings?
    Or is it a bit of both?
    I know these strange cult-types get worse generationally, which is a sign that the disfunctional theology/praxis is VERY harmful to impressionable children

    Bit of both, I think

  397. ION:

    Dr Fundystan’s West Ham beat Chelsea in the YeahWhatever cup tonight; they’ve drawn Scumchester United in the quarter final, against whom they have a good record in cup competitions. We’ve got a home tie against Leeds United. (The other ties are Arsenal v Southampton and Hull v Newcastle.)

    IHTIH; GNFS

  398. elastigirl wrote:

    @ Lea:
    “I think we err in seeing one style or another as the only way to go.”
    ++++++++++++
    as well as err on taking ourselves so dang seriously.
    christians are not the gift to the world.
    we are not the gift to wherever it is we find ourselves. Wal-Mart does not brighten up with warm light when we enter.
    (i’ve been the unwitting recipient of christian sunshine-spreading lately — unsolicited kind niceness from total strangers — the circumstances did not require it, it wasn’t needed [it wasn’t wanted] — but for whatever reason i presented as a target for practicing on, or scoring points on, or whatever. it was too much, invasive — very suffocating.)

    I used to go out evangelizing in the streets, and there are some pure motives involved and some motives that were purely self-centered, both different types of people, some truly trying to do some good, others self-serving, as well as mixed motives within the same person (was I doing it to feel important or to serve Jesus and love others?). I know some great things get done from less-than-great motives, and there’s some biblical justification for this, but there are few things worse than false Christ and false Christians with false motives, love bombing, being “led to Christ” by someone who only wants to put another notch on their belt, experiencing “kindness” from those who you just know, deep down, aren’t kind and are only using you for their own affirmation. It feels something like what I would imagine it would feel like to be used sexually.

  399. @ Rodney:
    Rodney, if we read between the lines of your comment, are you not subtly casting stones at people whom you are accusing of casting stones at Pete Wilson?

    🙂

    If so, I think that shows the problem with trying to over simplify a Biblical concept in a world in which making judgments is essential to decision making.

    Also, can we not both pray for people and hold them responsible for their actions?

    I ask this question because your comment doesn’t address the legitimacy or lack thereof of investigating the allegations of misconduct against Pastor Pete Wilson even though he is declining to defend himself by issuing a simple public statement saying that he is being slandered because what’s being said about his moral behavior is not true.

    Lastly, does the Bible not also say that Christian leaders should be held to higher standards of conduct than those who are not in positions of authority?

    If so, does the “but we’re all just sinners,” excuse for misbehavior really apply to Pastors?

    Thanks!

  400. CHIPS wrote:

    I wish there are more John the Baptist like pastors. Messy hair. Sticky robe. Hasn’t showered for a month. etc. I know this is crazy but chances are good that they are humble.

    I’m with you on the humility aspect, but not the not showering for a month thing. I would prefer humble, not self-absorbed, but clean.

    It should be a red flag when a leader is overly concerned with their appearance, especially when it’s all about looking younger than they really are. And the hipster thing is big in Nashville, but in a really conformist sort of way. Almost all of the hipsters look the same.

    And about preaching — It has become a really weird sort of spoken word performance art. People converge around these strong leaders who can create a sense of emotional connection by telling stories on stage, and weaving in a few Bible verses to make their ideas seem legit.

    It’s a rare person that can captivate an audience for more than 10-20 minutes by just talking. I once saw Bill Cosby live, and it was interesting to watch him captivate an audience with just himself, a chair and a glass of water on a table, for 90 minutes. At the time, we didn’t know about Bill’s… issues.

  401. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    IHTIH

    “I hope this is helpful.” – Nick-ism (posted at the top of the page under the Interesting tab, the Books/Movies/TV/ETC. tab since Google is behind the times and hasn’t added this language to Google Translate. Respectfully submitted, Velour)

  402. Rodney wrote:

    sinful just as we all are.

    Excuse me but are you saying that you may be inappropriate with women and are in the middle of a separation? Oh yeah, and you are not telling the truth about these issues?

  403. @ siteseer:
    I thought with that hair STYLE (and it is styled), it looked practically like a glamour shot

    so CUTE! reminds me of a cute pixie cut I once had for a while when I was a girl (just after a dreadful permanent burned up most of my hair, the perm from hell)

    these Southern men with their hair … pompadours, styled cuts, extreme ‘mullets’, tinted and frosted, or greased up wonders or something in imitation of the wigs worn by certain telepreachers that resemble dead animals on top of their head

    This is cultural, yes?

  404. Rodney wrote:

    If this report were filtered by “let he who is without sin cast the first stone” thinking, would the report be any different? Pete said from the pulpit many times that he was not perfect and that he had lots of struggles. I suggest we continue to pray for Pete, Brandy, his family, and Crosspoint. And with preachers as well as others in high visibility positions, realize they are human and likely sinful just as we all are.

    You might want to try putting on a different filter, Rodney, because there’s no serious Biblical basis for believing that people are all sinners, so therefore they should never be held responsible for their sins.

    I’ll make you a deal, you pray for Pete Wilson and all the other wealthy privileged Pastors in his position, and I’ll worry about the peons that he and others are hurting and taking advantage of.

    As I recall, Jesus focused more on ministering to those who were marginalized by society, as opposed to devoting his life to caring for the long-suffering high-profile/high-status wealthy religious leaders of his day.

    “Pete said from the pulpit many times that he was not perfect and that he had lots of struggles.”

    Yes, he was certainly right about that.

    But how could it be more clear that Pete didn’t believe a lot of the things he said from the pulpit?

    What you do reflects what you believe. The rest is all just talk.

  405. Rodney wrote:

    If this report were filtered by “let he who is without sin cast the first stone” thinking, would the report be any different? Pete said from the pulpit many times that he was not perfect and that he had lots of struggles. I suggest we continue to pray for Pete, Brandy, his family, and Crosspoint. And with preachers as well as others in high visibility positions, realize they are human and likely sinful just as we all are.

    You serious? So no one can judge another’s actions as being wrong or reprehensible if they have ever sinned? Is that what you’re saying? Do you think that’s what Jesus meant? Do you care?

  406. Janna L. Chan wrote:

    @ Rodney:
    Rodney, if we read between the lines of your comment, are you not subtly casting stones at people whom you are accusing of casting stones at Pete Wilson?

    Janna – You’re right to point this out, because that argument always destroys itself, the followers of fallen men (rather than Jesus) always rise up to throw stones at those whom they accuse of throwing stones.

  407. Janna L. Chan wrote:

    If so, does the “but we’re all just sinners,” excuse for misbehavior

    I never saw the ‘we’re all sinners’ as an EXCUSE for sinning, not in light of two parables from Scripture:

    Our Lord asked whoever was WITHOUT sin to cast the first stone

    and

    the publican in the temple could not even raise his eyes to the heavens but begged ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner’

    These are not examples of ‘hey, we’re all sinners in the same boat, so how about it’. Hardly.

    Sure, we are all sinners. But it doesn’t excuse ‘sin’ one bit….. look at crucifix once in a while if anyone thinks ‘sin’ is a joke among Christian people

    Can we self-righteously ‘point the finger’ at ‘other sinners’? Nope, no points for pointing.
    Can we stone people for sins when we ourselves are sinners? No way.
    Can we follow the way of grace and look upon Christ Crucified and be humbled by the knowledge of what WE have done? That is a choice we do have, a choice given to us out of the depths of the very Mercy of God.

  408. Janna L. Chan wrote:

    If so, I think that shows the problem with trying to over simplify a Biblical concept in a world in which making judgments is essential to decision making.

    The bible has lots of semi-conflicting advice. Like don’t judge, but be discerning, and throw so and so out of the church if they won’t repent! This is not a problem if you understand that the key is balance. And wisdom. It goes haywire when you don’t.

  409. @ Lea:
    I agree, Lea.

    @Christiane:

    Thanks, I didn’t mean to suggest that saying, “but we’re all just sinners,” is a legitimate excuse for ignoring misbehavior. I’m sorry if that wasn’t clear.

    @Law Prof: Yes, few people who snidely or angrily say. “it’s wrong for ya’ll to throw stones at our beloved Pastor,” perceive the irony of their behavior.

    I also love it when Christians go on Facebook and get very huffy with other Christians for supposedly sinning by using social media to express their opinions.

    What’s good for the goose seldom seems to be good for the gander.

    😉

  410. Rodney wrote:

    If this report were filtered by “let he who is without sin cast the first stone” thinking, would the report be any different? Pete said from the pulpit many times that he was not perfect and that he had lots of struggles. I suggest we continue to pray for Pete, Brandy, his family, and Crosspoint. And with preachers as well as others in high visibility positions, realize they are human and likely sinful just as we all are.

    Rodney, your first fallacy is that being honest about what happened equals “casting stones.”

    No one is in danger of the death penalty (stoning) here. Let’s not get carried away.

    Are truth and honesty important to the Christian? Ps 34:13

    The Bible says, “no lie is of the truth.” (1Jn 2:21) The church isn’t built on phony appearances. Or is it?

  411. Jesus said to a group of pharisees preparing to execute a woman for adultery: “If you don’t have sin, throw the first stone”.

    By the way, I wonder where the man was, where oh where was he, why wasn’t he down in the dust beside her, terrified, awaiting his fate as well? Makes one wonder if he wasn’t a religious leader, perhaps a pharisee. Could that be why they dragged her alone into the public square to be stoned to death and not him, perhaps religious leaders having each others’ backs? Sound familiar? Just speculation, but something to ponder.

    This story about Jesus then gets used to justify the principle that no one can say anything bad about any action of a religious leader or celeb: “So are you perfect, Mr./Ms Watchblog Reader? Have you ever sinned? Just who do you think you are to judge, why we’re all jus’ sinners, saved by grace.”

    yes indeed we are all just sinners saved by grace, but what about Paul and Peter and James and John and the whole lot of them who wrote the New Testament who seemed to be forever condemning the sins of sexual predators (and casting them out of congregations in I Cor–why what was that congregation thinking? Weren’t they sinners also? Who were they to judge?), the sins of cheap grace phonies (James), the sins of big money celebs who abuse people and enrich themselves off of congregations (Paul – 2 Cor 11), the sins of heretical leaders and preachers (John), the sins of depraved false teachers and preachers who make up stories (2 Peter).

    What were these people thinking? Weren’t James and Paul and John and Peter sinners also? Why Paul came right out and told us he was the chief sinner!

  412. dee wrote:

    Excuse me but are you saying that you may be inappropriate with women and are in the middle of a separation? Oh yeah, and you are not telling the truth about these issues?

    Better yet, would Rodney say, “we are all sinners” and defend a pastor if his wife happened to be a woman with whom some pastor was being inappropriate?

  413. Rodney wrote:

    … preachers … are human and likely sinful just as we all are

    Herein, lies our dilemma in 21st century church. The pew doesn’t expect the pulpit to be any different than they are! Well, it hasn’t always been that way. Church leaders of past generations (not all of them, but most of them) were called into ministry by a Holy God and were determined not to forsake that holy calling by living holy lives. I’ve been a Christian for 60+ years and have known countless examples of faithful pastors who were serious about the call upon them and challenged their followers to live holy and pure lives, preaching Christlikness as their goal. The “culturally-relevant” message of the modern pulpit has created a generation of new leaders who look like the world, talk like the world, and walk like the world … and their followers love it that way. These are preacher boys not men of God. Sure, every preacher is human and subject to a fallen world and its temptation to sin. But, occasionally, a man of God steps out of the madness and sets an example of other-worldliness … we need to cultivate a climate in church that will produce such leaders and not settle for less. Otherwise, we do church without God.

  414. Nancy2 wrote:

    Better yet, would Rodney say, “we are all sinners” and defend a pastor if his wife happened to be a woman with whom some pastor was being inappropriate?

    Would he defend Pete’s wife if she were running around in the same fashion?

  415. When the first article regarding Pete Wilson was posted, I was one of the commenters who said that people were being unfair when they insinuated that his resignation was due to something more than burnout. Obviously, I was wrong and wanted to publicly admit that. It is now time for dinner and I must now go and eat crow.

  416. Nancy2 wrote:

    dee wrote:
    Excuse me but are you saying that you may be inappropriate with women and are in the middle of a separation? Oh yeah, and you are not telling the truth about these issues?
    Better yet, would Rodney say, “we are all sinners” and defend a pastor if his wife happened to be a woman with whom some pastor was being inappropriate?

    It doesn’t have to make sense in the world of cultic churches, the world of the men-followers, the celeb-worshipers. They’re not taught to reason things through anyway, thinking is discouraged, they say things reflexively, i.e., “we’re all sinners, who’re we to judge?”, they don’t think them through. If they ever started thinking anything through, do you really think they’d think it was a laudable thing to go to church each Sunday and perhaps drag their families into a place to listen to the pearls of wisdom from a man who has a hairstyle fit for a 12 year old? Who wears jeans so tight you can tell his religion? Around whom swirl rampant rumors of sexual predation and abuse, yet they still keep on coming and giving and sacrificing for him?

    You may not think in that sort of environment, because if you ever think rather than feel, you’ll simply go mad.

  417. siteseer wrote:

    The church isn’t built on phony appearances. Or is it?

    The Wartburg Watch, and other watchblogs, would not exist if it wasn’t.

  418. BJ wrote:

    When the first article regarding Pete Wilson was posted, I was one of the commenters who said that people were being unfair when they insinuated that his resignation was due to something more than burnout. Obviously, I was wrong and wanted to publicly admit that. It is now time for dinner and I must now go and eat crow.

    Am not eating crow on this one, but have eaten so much over the years I’ve developed a taste for it. So you’re just joining the club. : )

  419. Nancy2 wrote:

    And Pete Wilson is what, 35?

    He looks younger than his wife. He looks like a kid in that hairstyle. His wife is a beautiful woman, no criticism intended. It’s just that Pete looks like he is TRYING to look like a ‘kid’. Is this a part of the ‘being cool’ thing?

  420. It’s not that I was surprised that he’s a cheating, lying skunk. I was just hoping that it was something else. It’s just so sad. Really for the sake of the body of Christ, we shouldn’t have churches with more than 1,000 people. My husband and I won’t go to any church that has more than that or purchase books by any Christian unless they are dead. We just don’t feel we should feed this.Law Prof wrote:

    BJ wrote:
    When the first article regarding Pete Wilson was posted, I was one of the commenters who said that people were being unfair when they insinuated that his resignation was due to something more than burnout. Obviously, I was wrong and wanted to publicly admit that. It is now time for dinner and I must now go and eat crow.
    Am not eating crow on this one, but have eaten so much over the years I’ve developed a taste for it. So you’re just joining the club. : )

  421. BJ wrote:

    My husband and I won’t…purchase books by any Christian unless they are dead. We just don’t feel we should feed this.

    That’s a great standard there.

  422. Looking at that Facebook page of Laura Ann in the main article above just makes one wonder if John Piper, at least under certain circumstances, doesn’t have a good point about the bodybuilding thing.

  423. Lea wrote:

    … “21% of youth pastors and 14% of pastors, overall, admit they currently struggle with p*rn. And about 12% of youth pastors and 5% of pastors say they are addicted to p*rn.”

    Sick.

  424. @ Max:
    Gosh that looks creepy, almost like a James Bond villain. Am I the only one who isn’t more creeped out by that photo than the one where he looks like he’s heading to an indie pop band audition?

  425. BJ wrote:

    We just don’t feel we should feed this.

    When the masses stop feeding this beast, it will retreat to the darkness whence it came. The counterfeit gospel would have no stage, if it wasn’t for an audience cheering it on.

  426. Law Prof wrote:

    By the way, I wonder where the man was, where oh where was he, why wasn’t he down in the dust beside her, terrified, awaiting his fate as well?

    Great question. I also wonder what Jesus wrote in ths sand. Names? Dates?

  427. @ Law Prof:
    I guess I’m just an old fuddy-duddy, but I still think you ought to comb your hair and clean yourself up a bit when you go to church … especially if you are the pastor! Does this generation have to leave everything behind?!

  428. @ Law Prof:

    “I know some great things get done from less-than-great motives, and there’s some biblical justification for this, but there are few things worse than false Christ and false Christians with false motives, love bombing, being “led to Christ” by someone who only wants to put another notch on their belt,”
    ++++++++++++++++++

    it’s a given that none of us has pure motives, not even ‘the most wonderful person in the world’.

    no doubt that great things with great results are done with mixed motives.

    the bottom line: it’s the Tshirt i’m going to have made for myself:

    Don’t Love Bomb Me

    or maybe it should be This is a love bomb-free zone

    or maybe no christian sunshine, please

  429. Christiane wrote:

    Nancy2 wrote:
    And Pete Wilson is what, 35?
    He looks younger than his wife. He looks like a kid in that hairstyle. His wife is a beautiful woman, no criticism intended. It’s just that Pete looks like he is TRYING to look like a ‘kid’. Is this a part of the ‘being cool’ thing?

    Can you imagine what his kids feel? Nothing like having a parent who won’t act like one.

  430. Max wrote:

    I guess I’m just an old fuddy-duddy, but I still think you ought to comb your hair and clean yourself up a bit when you go to church …

    I feel like I’m beginning to get the point of the pastor (in addition to the choir) wearing a robe.

    But the hipster outfits/dumb hair cuts don’t bother me as much as they do some of you. Wearing a suit or jeans is a uniform, all the same. I am more interested in the attitudes behind them.

  431. Lea wrote:

    I am more interested in the attitudes behind them.

    Agreed. Even as an old fuddy-duddy, I don’t have a big problem with form as long as there is some substance to it. I’m patient with changing styles in the pulpit and pew if the message of the Cross of Christ is not altered to draw a crowd.

  432. elastigirl wrote:

    it’s a given that none of us has pure motives, not even ‘the most wonderful person in the world’.

    no doubt that great things with great results are done with mixed motives.

    You (generic you) don’t have to have “pure motives” for doing the right thing.
    Doing the right thing is simply the right thing to do, nothing more, nothing less.
    It is its own reward, in and of itself in the here and now, no baggage required, not even carry-on, and what’s more, it helps to build a better world in the here and now.

    Not singling you out at all elastigirl, you’ve read my comments long enough now to see that I’m agreeing with you and adding an additional dimension to your comment.

  433. Dee Holmes (fka mirele) wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    Is that pic at the top supposed to be a church?
    It looks more like one of the industrial buildings around where I work, but bigger.
    Yes, it is supposed to be a church. Lots of churches are in office parks or “light industrial” today. Here’s an article called “Megachurches: photographing America’s drab new cathedrals” from the UK Guardian:
    https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2016/may/01/megachurches-christianity-lisa-anne-auerbach-photography-america

    I think the architecture follows the theology. The theology and praxis are stripped of almost everything religious, almost everything historical – almost as if there was no church history from the last apostle until the day that such-and-such non-denominational church popped up. So a non-descript warehouse or former factory or ugly but huge metal building kind of fits more than a traditional church building.

  434. Christiane wrote:

    Nancy2 wrote:

    And Pete Wilson is what, 35?

    He looks younger than his wife. He looks like a kid in that hairstyle. His wife is a beautiful woman, no criticism intended. It’s just that Pete looks like he is TRYING to look like a ‘kid’. Is this a part of the ‘being cool’ thing?

    Check out his wife’s Twitter –

    brandiandboys – married to one and raising three

    sounds like it might have been a running joke – whether a bit pointed or not it’s hard to tell

    and in any case now not so funny

  435. Patriciamc wrote:

    From here on out, I’m probably going to limit my comments

    Patriciamc…

    One thing… if you hang out around here don’t feel as if you have to defend something you see written about. You will get frustrated and once in a while it will make you feel as if your ar** will be handed to you. There are things mentioned in this thread I personally know are not completely correct… Though I agree with the thought and purpose behind them. I have chosen to pick my battles and not get my proverbial tighty whities in a wad. This is the interweb. This is a great place, I have learned a lot… don’t sweat the small stuff. Life is short.

  436. Jacob wrote:

    I think the architecture follows the theology. The theology and praxis are stripped of almost everything religious, almost everything historical – almost as if there was no church history from the last apostle until the day that such-and-such non-denominational church popped up. So a non-descript warehouse or former factory or ugly but huge metal building kind of fits more than a traditional church building.

    Great comment Jacob. It’s almost as if they (fundagelical mega-biggies) have their own behind the scenes Albert Speer picking out their digs for them.

  437. Since there are 2 ladies writing this blog, they are in a "leadership" position. I wonder if any of their skeletons have been released from the closet…or from any other person posting who calls himself/herself a "leader"? Truth be known about many of us, people from some walk of life would be shocked, disgusted, hurt and want to write us off. Admit it! So perhaps we should do some digging on some other people on here who are commenting and find out about their lives regarding affairs, other sexual situations, drugs, alcoholism, prostitution, pornography, etc. We are told very straight forward that we are NOT to be the judge; only God is allowed that position. AND we are told that "he/she who is without sin cast the first stone"! What is to possibly be gained from a post like this with all these comments? Crosspoint is hurting enough, thank you very much. I know, because my husband and I helped start the church from day 1. We don't need anyone else condemning, judging, offering their "wise" advise, blaming other staff, or even blaming us for being so blind to what was "really going on". This post could have gone so very far in offering comfort, hope and support if the authors had merely gone on here to talk about a hurting church and calling "the church" to prayer. Oh, yes, some have said they are praying for Crosspoint while posting damning comments. Those prayers mean nothing if accompanied by a judgmental spirit.

  438. @ Muff Potter:

    “Doing the right thing is simply the right thing to do, nothing more, nothing less.
    It is its own reward”
    +++++++++++++++++++

    thank you, muff. yes, agreed. as long as all understand that love bombing me is never the right thing to do.

  439.  @ siteseer:

    IF you were to look at Pete through the eyes of Jesus, would your view be any different? You know the forgiving 70 x 7 thing? Not saying that any immorality, IF there was in fact any, is right…but please answer this question for all your viewers: As a LEADER (and you are by writing and publishing this blog) have you sinned? Have you repeated sinned? Have you done anything immoral? Remember when pointing the finger there are 4 more pointing right back at you. AND ALL OF US WILL ANSWER BEFORE ALMIGHTY GOD SOME DAY ABOUT THINGS WE SAID, CONTROVERSIES WE STARTED, AND JUDGMENTS WE PLACED!

  440. Lea wrote:

    the attitudes

    Leadership: http://bit.ly/2eHXcXF
    1. Seek but respect others.
    2. Sometimes you’re the problem. Balance credit and accountability.
    3. Take care of each other – on your left and right.
    4. Always sit in a circle and be the last to speak.
    5. Maintain humility and gratitude: we do not merit the perks we receive, the perks are for the position, not for us.

  441. Unepetiteanana wrote:

    @ Dave A A:
    I’m really surprised it was approved. Part of me thinks it might not be there later but hey … Who knows.

    Well, My Word! Where in tarnation would them thar comments be off to now? The ol’ expastors must have got them some comment-eatin virus on their website! Or maybe it’s just some glitch with my Commodore 64… Dad gum modren technology! Lawsamercy!

  442. GMFS 1 of 2

    I would like to make a follow-up observation to my earlier (characteristically long) comment on the limitless grace we are apparently willing to give to selected groups of people.

    I refer here to the limitless grace available to the professional speakers – lead pastors, senior pastors, whatever the title – at a particular kind of church congregation. They’re great, gifted people who deserve huge salaries and lavish perks and – this is significant – the need an elevated platform and many people should hang on their words and follow their instructions. On the other hand, if they behave badly or mistreat their fellow-believers, suddenly they’re just like everybody else and we shouldn’t “judge” them.

    Well, we were judging them a minute ago. We were judging them worthy of a very large salary.

    As Law Prof pointed out above, many people are excellent speakers and could preach great sermons. And much more besides. None of these people would require a large salary in return for their contribution to the church. In fact, most of them already have paid external jobs and serve in the church for free.

    The now-retired pastor at the congregation Lesley and I attend used to work as a window-cleaner even as he was paid a part-time salary by the congregation. He once related an anecdote from a minister he knew down in Manchester that went something like this:

    If I stood up one Sunday and said, I’ll be away next week and I need a volunteer to preach for me, there’d be a queue of men outside the vestry at the end of the service. But when I say, we need helpers in the creche or the children’s church next week – no queue.

    Obviously there are disclosure/legal/child-protection issues with the creche etc, but you get what he meant. As regular Wartburgers know, I fancy myself a great deal as a preacher and guru. But that story has always stuck with me. Do I fancy myself as a servant?

    What if, instead of getting 6 months paid sabbatical to write a book, a church member had to spend that time cleaning the building after the meetings, fixing the roof, serving the coffee, supporting the weans’ workers, and generally washing the feet of the saints? What if there were a preaching rota, drawn from among people who were quietly serving in other areas? That would probably fix two problems:
     The enormous cost of paying a megapastor
     The cult of personality that builds up around them

  443. GMFS 2 of 2

    There’s been some discussion in this thread about prominent church executives and motivational speakers (or “pastors” if you must) who go off the rails. Specifically, were they always up to no good, or did they start out well and gradually drift off the rails?

    It’s probably a mixture of both.

    The unlimited selective grace given to megapastors doesn’t help anybody, though. Extolling the value of their gifts, then “not judging” their behaviour, just means they have to fight tooth and nail against the church if they really want to stay humble and with their eyes fixed on Jesus, not fame or short-term “results”. In other words, it is not kind, gracious or loving towards them. And for the sociopathic ones, it just hands a piece of Jesus’ church to them on a plate. It certainly doesn’t serve Jesus.

  444. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    And for the sociopathic ones, it just hands a piece of Jesus’ church to them on a plate. It certainly doesn’t serve Jesus.

    These are very good thoughts. Here is one of the links from TGC today: http://practicalshepherding.com/2016/10/26/how-do-i-encourage-my-pastor-2/. This is probably good advice for many pastors, but not the types highlighted in threads like this one. If a pastor is more toward the spectrum of narcissist/sociopath, it is very bad guidance. The pastors on this end of the spectrum seem to demand the accolades that the humble pastors actually deserve.

  445. elastigirl wrote:

    Don’t Love Bomb Me
    or maybe it should be This is a love bomb-free zone
    or maybe no christian sunshine, please

    Yep, we’re on the same page. I just want truth and kindness. Have received it before and a person who really loves Jesus is wonderful the bomb to be around, but you won’t find many such people at a church where men are up in the spotlight and where it’s all about the performance. Those are dismal, dreary places that in time produce cynical people who care about nothing other than themselves.

  446. Ken F wrote:

    The pastors on this end of the spectrum seem to DEMAND the accolades that the humble pastors actually DESERVE. [emphasis added]

    I trust the added emphasis was within the spirit of what you wrote, Ken. But I think you have it in a nutshell.

  447. elastigirl wrote:

    thank you, muff. yes, agreed. as long as all understand that love bombing me is never the right thing to do.

    Yep.

    Someone openly hating you is not the opposite of loving you.

    The opposite of loving you is when someone pretends to love you but in their heart doesn’t care about you. In a nutshell, that’s love bombing.

    Jesus never did that, people who truly follow Him never should.

  448. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    I trust the added emphasis was within the spirit of what you wrote, Ken.

    Yes, exactly. They use articles like the one I cited to shame people into propping up narcissists.

  449. Lisa wrote:

    I wonder if any of their skeletons have been released from the closet…or from any other person posting who calls himself/herself a “leader”? Truth be known about many of us, people from some walk of life would be shocked, disgusted, hurt and want to write us off. Admit it!

    I guess you have only been reading this blog due to the Pete Wilson thing. We have written for 7 1/2 years. I have discussed my issues during that time.

  450. Lisa wrote:

    AND we are told that “he/she who is without sin cast the first stone”!

    Are we though? I see this a lot but it comes from a story about specific people in a specific situation. I’m not sure that ‘we’ are really told this. At any rate, I haven’t cast a stone at anyone so I guess I’m clear.

  451. Lisa wrote:

    So perhaps we should do some digging on some other people on here who are commenting and find out about their lives

    It is interesting that your first impulse here is to attack. I am sure people at Crosspoint are hurting and I feel very sorry for them. But the solution is not to hide the truth, which is what Pete and all his sycophants did.

    There are a lot of bible verses about the truth and exposing lies, too. Probably more than about forgiving.

  452. Lisa wrote:

    What is to possibly be gained from a post like this with all these comments? Crosspoint is hurting enough, thank you very much. I know, because my husband and I helped start the church from day 1. We don’t need anyone else condemning, judging, offering their “wise” advise, blaming other staff, or even blaming us for being so blind to what was “really going on”.

    I guess you think that this post is all about your church, Cross Point. You don’t need us, etc. Once again, you show that you do not understand what this blog is about. We are taking a broad view of the church and looking at pastors, leaders, etc. who abuse their positions and hurt the church universal and the church local along with the individuals.

    Believe it or not, your church is just one more church with some issues that need to be resolved. Until they are, this baloney will continue. When you attend a church that wants to be *known* you will be known-not just for your good but for you sin.

    The Bible is fascinating because it pulls no punches on the sin of the people. Why would God advertise all the bad of His people? Shouldn’t He just left it alone and let it be dealt with internally? Or did the Gospel demand the transparency that I see in Scriptures.

    Now, lets look at your assumption about *judging.* Are you saying that we are not to judge sin? Are you sure that this is what the Scriptures say? The Bible is pretty clear. We are not to judge the salvation of an individual. That is left up to God. However, we are to judge sin. Let me give you an example. Should we ignore a pedophile who is molesting children? Are you saying we shouldn’t judge his actions? The Bible gives us lists of things that are wrong. If we were not supposed to *judge* why bother?

    Finally, look carefully at the “let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” Do you understand what they were going to do? The were going to kill the woman caught in adultery because that was part of the Law. Jesus came to forgive but the punishment of the Law condoned killing a woman who was an adulterer.” When Jesus said the casting the stone thing, he was telling the Pharisees that all sin lead to death, not just adultery. That was radical and not well received by the Pharisees who would go on to plot the death of Jesus.

    He was pointing to a new way out for all of us who were condemned under the Law. It would take the Cross and Resurrection for it to be understood but Jesus, in his ministry, was pointing forward to the Cross and Resurrection.When you look at His ministry, think about that. He was freaking people out by pointing to something new that they did not yet understand.

    Jesus also told the woman to “go and sin no more”. Why would he say that? That woman would go and sin more. We all do. He was showing a new way to all who observed this scene, including that woman. She needed this new way of forgiveness as well.

    That woman was wrong to commit adultery. Jesus did not let her off the hook. She would need confession and forgiveness. Can you imagine if the woman left and told people that Jesus told her she was *burned out?* How that story would be ruined!

    If we are not to judge, why does Paul judge lots of things like the man sleeping with his mother in law in Corinthians?I find far too many church people who do not seem to understand the differences of judging in the temporal and the eternal.

    This post was not written to help your church. It was written to help lots of churches and people caught in bad situations. It was written to say that the Gospel demands transparency for our sins and if we get the Gospel, we get the reason why. Your church was the example of this.

    I am praying for your church and I stopped a moment and prayed for you as well. I hope you agree that all of us can use all the prayers we can get.

  453. Lisa wrote:

    We don’t need anyone else condemning, judging, offering their “wise” advise, blaming other staff, or even blaming us for being so blind to what was “really going on”.

    Obviously you were blind to what was really going on. And I suppose you bear part of the responsibility, don’t you? All your spite and stone throwing at those on this blog will not take that fact away.

    Funny, isn’t it, how those people who love to cite how Jesus told those who were without sin to cast the first stone always seem to follow that quote with several handfuls of stones?

    Lisa, are you paying any attention to what you’re writing? (then again, best guess is Lisa’s left the building and only made a quick visit to throw her handful of stones).

  454. Lisa wrote:

     @ siteseer:
    IF you were to look at Pete through the eyes of Jesus, would your view be any different? You know the forgiving 70 x 7 thing? Not saying that any immorality, IF there was in fact any, is right…but please answer this question for all your viewers: As a LEADER (and you are by writing and publishing this blog) have you sinned? Have you repeated sinned? Have you done anything immoral? Remember when pointing the finger there are 4 more pointing right back at you. AND ALL OF US WILL ANSWER BEFORE ALMIGHTY GOD SOME DAY ABOUT THINGS WE SAID, CONTROVERSIES WE STARTED, AND JUDGMENTS WE PLACED!

    You willing to forgive those on this blog 7 x 70?

  455. dee wrote:

    This post was not written to help your church. It was written to help lots of churches and people caught in bad situations. It was written to say that the Gospel demands transparency for our sins and if we get the Gospel, we get the reason why. Your church was the example of this.

    Right, this blog should not be about propping up any 501(c)(3) corporation that lists itself as a church, especially those that put spotlights on sexual predators and ignore the ugliness until it becomes too unmanageable–then lie about it to preserve the organization, it should be about supporting the true church, the Bride of Christ, the Christ Who told us that whispers in the inner rooms would be shouted from the rooftops.

  456. Lisa wrote:

     @ siteseer:
    IF you were to look at Pete through the eyes of Jesus, would your view be any different? You know the forgiving 70 x 7 thing? Not saying that any immorality, IF there was in fact any, is right…but please answer this question for all your viewers: As a LEADER (and you are by writing and publishing this blog) have you sinned? Have you repeated sinned? Have you done anything immoral? Remember when pointing the finger there are 4 more pointing right back at you. AND ALL OF US WILL ANSWER BEFORE ALMIGHTY GOD SOME DAY ABOUT THINGS WE SAID, CONTROVERSIES WE STARTED, AND JUDGMENTS WE PLACED!

    Doesn’t the Bible say that a church leader in sin is to be confronted before all?
    Why didn’t church leaders follow what the Bible says to do and confront him before all
    in an open, transparent, honest manner?

    The issues discussed here in an adult manner are far bigger than just your church. They are issues spreading in churches across the U.S. and around the world, indicative of the problems of how ‘church is done’ in so many places and what happens when it all goes wrong.

  457. Velour wrote:

    Doesn’t the Bible say that a church leader in sin is to be confronted before all?
    Why didn’t church leaders follow what the Bible says to do and confront him before all
    in an open, transparent, honest manner?

    What does the Bible have to do with a celebrity-driven 510(c)(3) nonprofit corporation? Is it relevant? Do people go to such places because they’re all about the Bible? Or Jesus?

    There are certainly people at such places who love Jesus and believe the Bible, but they must swallow a frog to put up with such a place, and over time their faith will generally be turned on its head as they try to square what they see [propped up on the stage each Sunday with what they know Jesus is–will make you crazy in time. Others care nothing about Jesus, their only notion of Jesus is as a concept that makes them feel good, understood only through the words of the celebrity.

    Either group will, upon being told the truth about the celebrity, have a strong tendency to lash out in rage at anyone or anything that exposes the truth about their system–and there you have Lisa.

  458. Law Prof wrote:

    Either group will, upon being told the truth about the celebrity, have a strong tendency to lash out in rage at anyone or anything that exposes the truth about their system–and there you have Lisa.

    Yes.

    Sad and bad. And sad that the church leaders didn’t do the right thing in handling this situation Bibically.

    As a little girl, perhaps about four years old, I remember all of the families and church members being called into a special service at the Presbyterian Church where my family were members. The pastor had an affair with another married woman from church (I guess it was clergy abuse now that I think about it). I was a child and didn’t really understand anything. But there were many tears, silence, shock. His conduct was dealt with ‘before all’.

    A new pastor was brought…all of the way to California from Scotland.

  459. @ dee:
    well, that’s good! Again, I questions some of your “proof” and would love to know just where the “proof” came from….

  460. @ Law Prof:
    WOW! Talk about throwing stones! THIS is the very reason many are turned off to Christianity. Hypocrisy at it’s best. If you could say it in a kind, non sarcastic crass way, it would be one thing. but your comment “guess Lisa’s left the building and only made a quick visit to throw her stones” is a far cry from speaking the truth “in love”. People on this site need to do lots of research into the intent of your blog and see how it fits the overall thrust of the Gospel.

  461. Lisa wrote:

    well, that’s good!

    This is not a response. It is sarcasm and I actually tried to engage you. However, that does not appear to be your purpose here so I won’t make the mistake again.

    I will not discuss the anonymous sources who are in a position to know. You can decide that I am lying and just made this up for the heck of it just to have a good time tearing down you church while I am on vacation in Florida. That’s up to you.

    Now, let me ask you a question since you are apparently in a position to know. Has Pete Wilson been living with his wife in the past few months?

  462. Lisa wrote:

    as I dare say is true of most commenting now

    You shouldn’t have dared say, Most of the folks commenting here have commented before. I can tell because everytime someone is new, my dashboard tells me.

  463. Lisa wrote:

    “guess Lisa’s left the building and only made a quick visit to throw her stones” is a far cry from speaking the truth “in love

    Whoa-isn’t that judging?
    Also, Law Prof does not run this blog. Could you do us all a favor and stick to the knitting? You obviously know nothing of what goes on here. Just tell us what you want to tell us. Your thoughts are helpful in understanding the overall milieu of the church at Cross Point.

  464. @ dee:

    I don’t know nor do I need to know. I’ve known Pete since he was a teenager, I’ve known and loved his family, and I still do. I do not ask those questions, nor do I think it’s my business. That’s between he and his wife and the Lord and NO ONE ELSE! My husband and I have been in counseling a few times over the years and our Christian counselors have said that there are times when a legal separation is good until things calm down, to regroup, to pray and reevaluate the relationship, to perhaps miss one another and begin again…all healthy and good things for SOME people to do. So it’s none of my business OR yours! There are single pastors out there; single again pastors out there…and whether he is with his wife living right this second has absolutely NOTHING to do with his relationship with the Lord, his ability to preach…it makes him human, like the rest of us! WOW! THere’s a concept! We are all human and we all err…but for some casting stones and finding the speck in other’s eyes is more fun that looking at the log in our own eyes!

  465. Velour wrote:

    I wish I had known that. My ex-pastor (Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley) did the whole Mark Dever/9 Marxist/John MacArthur-ite “expositional preaching”. Time? Usually 1 hour and 45 minutes. 90 minutes if we were “lucky”.

    I think Lyle Lovett had similar experiences.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2OrBhVMKrk

  466. I’m out of this discussion as there is not one thing positive happening here! NOTHING you are doing or saying is helping any of us at Crosspoint heal; in fact, it is doing quite the opposite. You are keeping things stirred up, keeping rumors going (without showing your proof), you are doing nothing to encourage others to pray for us and with us, that the church can continue to do the work THE LORD called us to do. The church is not about PETE; it’s about Jesus, as is the gospel. If only you gals would spend more time and focus on spreading the Good News, rather than digging into the “scoop” of pastors lives, much more positive would happen. Praying for you, that you would know 100% “proof positive” that you are in the center of God’s will (the goal of Christianity) and that you are pleasing Him in all you say and do!

  467. @ dee:
    You can’t even quote what I said correctly….LOL! no never heard of your blog until this situation, as I dare say is true of most commenting now

  468. Lisa wrote:

    @ Law Prof:
    WOW! Talk about throwing stones! THIS is the very reason many are turned off to Christianity. Hypocrisy at it’s best. If you could say it in a kind, non sarcastic crass way, it would be one thing. but your comment “guess Lisa’s left the building and only made a quick visit to throw her stones” is a far cry from speaking the truth “in love”. People on this site need to do lots of research into the intent of your blog and see how it fits the overall thrust of the Gospel.

    Lisa, you threw the first stone. By non sarcastic or crass, do you mean the things Jesus said? Paul? Peter? John? James? Would it better better if I referred to Pete as a “blind guide”? A “snake”? Would it be better if I referred to him as a “son of hell” and the people who followed him “twice as much sons of hell”? Would it be better if I said of you, in extreme sarcasm “You gladly put up with fools since you are so wise! In fact, you even put up with anyone who enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or puts on airs or slaps you in the face.”

    Would that be better?

  469. @ Lisa:

    It is strange you automatically think in terms of hierarchies even on a blog?

    Perhaps the reason why you and your church hurt so badly right now is because you all invested so much of yourself into a mere human “leader” instead of Jesus Christ. And you had a lot of staff either kept in the dark or looking the other way. That is how it works in those types of churches.

    Jesus Christ never fails you. Invest in Him.

  470. dee wrote:

    Your thoughts are helpful in understanding the overall milieu of the church at Cross Point.

    Well… they might be. “Lisa” claims to have been a founder member, but we’ve no actual evidence that she was, or indeed that she is a member. This site does attract all sorts, after all.

    Bit reminiscent of a temporary person here (named after a very-widely-known cereal crop native to Asia and Africa) who commented here for a while, pretended to agree with some of us while picking arguments with others, then left as though abandoning us to our heresy, only to return briefly under a sock-puppet name in order to agree with herself! (I say “herself” – the name was female, but the person behind it may not have been.)

  471. Lisa wrote:

    The church is not about PETE; it’s about Jesus, as is the gospel.

    That’s right. And if your church were all about Jesus, one has to wonder if you’d have put Pete on the stage and left him there. One has to wonder if your leaders would’ve lied about “exhaustion” being the reason behind his departure. One has to wonder if you might not be a bit more introspective right now rather than lashing out in impotent rage at the truth.

  472. Lisa wrote:

    @ Law Prof:
    no saying NOTHING, unless it’s for the “building up of the Kingdom” would be better!

    Lisa, I was trying to point out to you that all of those things said were for the building up of the kingdom–they are in the Bible, Lisa.

  473. Velour wrote:

    Doesn’t the Bible say that a church leader in sin is to be confronted before all?
    Why didn’t church leaders follow what the Bible says to do and confront him before all in an open, transparent, honest manner?
    The issues discussed here in an adult manner are far bigger than just your church. They are issues spreading in churches across the U.S. and around the world, indicative of the problems of how ‘church is done’ in so many places and what happens when it all goes wrong.

    Here is a tale of two churches:

    In one church an associate pastor was known by the other pastors to be in gross sin in his private life (wife alerted them). After years of counseling and accountability, this man continued in his sin. In a private meeting, the elders called him to resign. They brought the matter to the congregation, telling the whole story to everyone present. The pastor in question stood, humbly and tearfully confessed, saying he had disqualified himself from leadership, resigned, then stepped down from the stage and sat down quietly in a pew. He and his family remained part of the congregation, loved and cared for, as they tried to work out their problems. Ultimately they divorced. Even though there wasn’t a happy ending, the experience strengthened everyone’s faith and the relationships within the church. Everyone was earnestly trying to live together by the rule of love.

    In the second church, debt incurred through a large building project resulted in the church’s elders employing slight-of-hand accounting (that wasn’t legal) to pad the general fund to make the church appear more solvent than it actually was. A few members became aware of the elders’ actions and encouraged them to confess to the church and fix what they had done. The elders’ response was to claim spiritual superiority (a ‘special anointing for leadership’) that made it acceptable for them to use any means necessary to preserve of the church. Ultimately an elder from another church had to mediate between the elders and the members. Finally the elders reluctantly confessed to the congregation that ‘mistakes were made’, but there was ‘nothing more to see here, move along’. They didn’t repent of their arrogance or fix everything they did. They continue to lead in that mindset. The experience resulted in a truly nasty church split and many relationships destroyed. Honoring the Lord was the last thing on anyone’s mind.

    These two churches were in reality the SAME CHURCH, the incidents several years apart. It’s an example of why TWW has been sounding the alarm: spiritual pride, secrecy, greed and lust for power have crept in and are crippling the American Church, rendering a large swath of it practically useless for God’s kingdom.

    Sound familiar?

    Perhaps we’re due for Reformation 2.0.

    Kyrie Eleison.

  474. @ Lisa:
    No. Pete chose to make a living on stage teaching about Jesus. He went to a ton of trouble to have a lot of followers. Now he is going to go and teach other pastors how to have a ton of followers . A role model? If he wanted a very private life he should not have chosen that one.

  475. By the way, Lisa, are you judging us? Are you throwing stones? Are you forgiving us 7 x 70? Are you, the one who called me a hypocrite, a hypocrite yourself?

  476. Lisa wrote:

    That’s between he and his wife and the Lord and NO ONE ELSE!

    “2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.”

  477. @ Nick Bulbeck:
    It’s ok, Dee. It’s not important that you know that I am a founding member, or that I AM a member. Both are true; the Lord knows it and that’s ALL that matters to me! Truly it doesn’t even matter to us if a person is a member because “nobody’s perfect, everybody’s welcome, anything’s possible”…even the salvation of those who are so judgmental, hypocritical and seem to have all the answers. If this is what brings you pleasure and joy, if THIS is why you thinks honors God and His church, if you think He is pleased with what you are doing and IF HE has truly “called” you to this position, go for it. When you stand before Him maybe you will hear “well done, good and faithful SERVANT”…and if not….well, you know the Scripture and what it says, I need not tell you. No need to respond. I will post no more of this level of gossip, perhaps slander, accusations with no proof, and an all out attempt NOT to help heal hurting people of our church but, rather, to add to the hurt!

  478. We have had other commenters in this thread who are from Crosspoint: Stephen W, AvaW, Patriciamc and Gerald – all of whose comments have been helpful in understanding the situation. I may’ve missed some. Oh, there’s Nicole, who may have been Pete. I still may’ve missed some…

  479. Lisa wrote:

    That’s between he and his wife and the Lord and NO ONE ELSE!

    Unfortunately, that reasoning is not found in the Bible.

    The Bible is quite clear about the church needing to take action as a church body when a pastor is involved in stuff like this.

  480. Lisa wrote:

    finding the speck in other’s eyes is more fun that looking at the log in our own eyes!

    How do you know that I have not looked at the log in my eye?

  481. @ Lisa:

    Unfortunately, you are not doing a good job in convincing any of us that we are wrong in our approach. But perhaps all you wanted to do was vent and not dialog. Or did you want to be a change agent and actually do some good here?

    Here is what you have taught me. Something is wrong with Pete and you don’t give a darn, whatsoever. All is well and you don’t really care what the Bible says about dealing with serious situations.

    The gossip charge is just one more “ho hum I don’t want to think about this anymore deeply than I have” response. It is superficial and devoid of anything other than superficial charges that are not based on the Biblical narrative.

    I encourage you to think about how your words might not have led anyone to change since they were not particularly thoughtful-merely angry.

  482. dee wrote:

    Lisa wrote:
    That’s between he and his wife and the Lord and NO ONE ELSE!
    Unfortunately, that reasoning is not found in the Bible.
    The Bible is quite clear about the church needing to take action as a church body when a pastor is involved in stuff like this.

    In public, too: “But those elders who are sinning you are to reprove before everyone, so that the others may take warning.”

    Lisa – Stop shaking in anger at us, it’s the Bible that you’re fighting against here, and perhaps the One Who inspired it.

  483. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    “Lisa” claims to have been a founder member, but we’ve no actual evidence that she was, or indeed that she is a member.

    I tend to differentiate between people who are specific and people who are not specific. People who are specific, in resignations, in blog comments, etc, tend to read more credible.

    Pete was not specific in his resignation, unless we were supposed to realize that burned out was code. Usually when people leave a job they are specific – I left to retire/work here/etc.

    Lisa has not been specific in her critiques. In fact, she asks for the ‘source’ of the information, rather than refuting it. She also asked us just to stop talking. This is quite a different approach then the other members who have commented.

  484. To the members of Cross Point who I know are reading this.

    I find comments like Lisa’s thought provoking. I wonder if this is the level of Biblical teaching that was done at Cross Point. Could it be that the teaching was intentionally superficial so that pain and sin could be overlooked by the members and not *judged.*

    I find it fascinating that whenever a situation like this comes up, the gut response by people is “we are not perfect people.” The answer to that is So? What then do we do?

    Do we say that a pedophile who hurts a child is “not perfect?” What about a man who enters the home and kills all the family members? What about a guy who drives drunk and kills others?

    How do we deal with passages like 1 Corinthians 5 or Timothy? Do we just blow them off and say “We are not perfect people so leave us alone.”

    It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this?

    Where is the line in all of this?There is one. For example, if I knew Pete Wilson cussed out a driver who cut him off, I probably would not have written a post.

    However, something is deeply wrong if people like Lisa say it is none of her business if Pete is not living with his wife. This is a founding member of the church expressing her concerning lack of depth in her theology.

    Cross Point needs to go much deeper or there will continue to be ramifications that will hurt the church.

  485. Lisa wrote:

    I will post no more of this level of gossip, perhaps slander, accusations with no proof

    Reading between the lines, I’m guessing you’ve heard all of these stories just don’t want to believe them.

  486. Lea wrote:

    Lisa has not been specific in her critiques. In fact, she asks for the ‘source’ of the information, rather than refuting it. She also asked us just to stop talking. This is quite a different approach then the other members who have commented.

    It’s Cult Technique 101

  487. Lea wrote:

    she asks for the ‘source’ of the information, rather than refuting it. She also asked us just to stop talking

    I can imagine what would happen if I told her. Not. Gonna. Happen.

  488. dee wrote:

    Lea wrote:
    she asks for the ‘source’ of the information, rather than refuting it. She also asked us just to stop talking

    I can imagine what would happen if I told her. Not. Gonna. Happen.

    She would forgive them, 7×70, because none of us are perfect and logs and specks and all that. Right?
    dee wrote:

    Lea wrote:

    she asks for the ‘source’ of the information, rather than refuting it. She also asked us just to stop talking

    I can imagine what would happen if I told her. Not. Gonna. Happen.

  489. Lisa wrote:

    People on this site need to do lots of research into the intent of your blog and see how it fits the overall thrust of the Gospel.

    Lisa,

    If you’re this upset it’s time to take a break and go out for a walk, a massage, get your nails done, something.

    As a little girl in nursery school I recall the Sunday when a Presbyterian Church pastor in sexual sin was “confronted before all”. I didn’t understand the ramifications then as a preschooler, and all that went on, but I knew it was very serious business. As an adult I “get it”.

    It was a brave thing that the church leaders did…to confront him the way the Bible says it is to be done.

    It also saved our witness in the community, now that I think about it.

    The church was so serious about having a godly leader, that they brought a new pastor all of the way from Scotland to California. And he repeatedly addressed his predecessor’s sin.

  490. Lisa has been using classic Thought Stopping and other Thought Reform techniques that have been researched by Dr. Robert Jay Lifton (psychiatrist at Yale). Dr. Lifton, while working as a psychiatrist for the U.S. Air Force, researched the Chinese Communist Thought Reform techniques to gain compliance over people.

    Steve Hassan who is a psychologist, author, cult expert, and Thought Reform expert was mentored by Dr. Lifton, whose work helped get Steve out of a cult.

    “The BITE Model
    I. Behavior Control
    II. Information Control
    III. Thought Control
    IV. Emotional Control”

    https://www.freedomofmind.com/Info/BITE/bitemodel.php

  491. Velour wrote:

    … that they brought a new pastor all of the way from Scotland to California. And he repeatedly addressed his predecessor’s sin.

    That is the sort of thing some of my adopted countrymen would go to California for…

  492. Velour wrote:

    Lisa,
    If you’re this upset it’s time to take a break and go out for a walk, a massage, get your nails done, something.

    It’s OK – she’s gone. (After promising to leave more than once, to be fair.)

  493. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    … that they brought a new pastor all of the way from Scotland to California. And he repeatedly addressed his predecessor’s sin.
    That is the sort of thing some of my adopted countrymen would go to California for…

    His accent took a bit of getting used to.

    I guess he thought (privately) the same thing about us. He and his wife, and their young daughters, were dears.

  494. Lisa wrote:

    and an all out attempt NOT to help heal hurting people of our church

    Please, please help us understand. Are you hurting because you feel Pete has done something to hurt you, or simply because you’re missing him? You mentioned forgiveness– has he asked you all for forgiveness for anything between 9/11 and now? Seems to me he’s shaken your dust off his feet and is all excited about his new job as a cheerleader to pastors.

  495. @ Dave A A:
    Personally, I think he’s treated you all shamefully and I’m sorry for you all, as well as the thousands of others who follow him.

  496. Dave A A wrote:

    You mentioned forgiveness– has he asked you all for forgiveness for anything between 9/11 and now? Seems to me he’s shaken your dust off his feet and is all excited about his new job as a cheerleader to pastors.

    Well said!

  497. Lea wrote:

    She would forgive them, 7×70, because none of us are perfect and logs and specks and all that. Right?

    Yeah, I’ve seen how that’s happened in churches.

  498. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    His accent took a bit of getting used to.
    You might find this clip funny, then:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FFRoYhTJQQ
    (“Burnistoun” is a portmanteau of “Springburn” and “Dennistoun”, the two parts of Glasgow whence the laddies in the video come.)

    Hysterical.

    I laughed.

    Wondered if the laddies would be able to get out of the elevator.

  499. Lisa wrote:

    no saying NOTHING, unless it’s for the “building up of the Kingdom” would be better!

    Where in the the Bible does it say that we should turn a blind eye to the sins and misdeeds of others, especially church leaders, and move along as if it nothing ever happened? I think I read something about managing their households well and being above reproach?

  500. Lisa wrote:

    If only you gals would spend more time and focus on spreading the Good News,

    Part of the Good News is this:
    Luke 1:51b-52 He has scattered those who were proud in the thoughts of their heart.
    “He has brought down rulers from their thrones,
    And has exalted those who were humble.”

    Proud men are entitled men, men who feel they deserve more or better, or feel they don’t have to follow the rules they make or enforce over others.

    Bringing down and scattering proud men, like Pete Wilson, is PART of the Gospel and ministry of Jesus Christ. Every valley shall be filled, every mountain will be brought low. Men who lord over others and feed on the humble sheep will be brought low.

  501. Lisa wrote:

    no saying NOTHING, unless it’s for the “building up of the Kingdom” would be better

    Whose kingdom are we talking about here? Pete Wilson’s?
    Cause I know you aren’t talking about God’s Kingdom.
    Pete Wilson’s kingdom is build on the sand of his shallow teaching, aberrant character, and shady practices. And that kingdom needs to be torn down, not built up.

    God’s Kingdom is built on the bedrock of Jesus Christ and shares no part in the abused perpetrated by Pete.

  502. Lisa wrote:

    ; only God is allowed that position. AND we are told that “he/she who is without sin cast the first stone”! What is to possibly be gained from a post like this with all these comments? Crosspoint is hurting enough, thank you very muc

    With all due respect (and I mean it), your kind of churches (new-Calvinism) are the ones that keep preaching about discipline and excommunication. Your kind of churches obviously have no problem judging your very own members.

    And now you (a representative, who has been with that church since day # 1) is going to turn around and say do not judge your pastors?

    Let me clarify. Your kind of church would excommunicate people for anything your leaders don’t like. That including having certain kinds of DVDs, driving certain kind of cars, missing a bible study, drinking wine, etc. Anything the church leadership doesn’t like, whatever if it is actually a clear sin in the bible or not, is ground for discipline and excommunication.

    And now you are telling us to not judge your pastor when he has clear sexual misconducts? That he slept with a woman not his wife, cheated on his own wife and betrayed his own children, unrepentant of his sins, etc. And so your church won’t be disciplining and excommunicating him? Instead you just swipe it all under a carpet and let him go in a “respectful” way?

    What happened to your kind of church’s regular discipline process? Why don’t you people call him up every day to harass him? Why don’t you people call his current employer to tell them all about his problems? Why don’t you expose every single sexual sin you know he did to the whole congregation?

    It is important for you to realize the double standards you kind of church has. And realize the amount of brain washing you had received from your pastor and leadership.

  503. Nancy2 wrote:

    This is how 14 and 15 year old boys wear their hair in high school. Even my kid brother got his mullet chopped off before he was 25. And Pete Wilson is what, 35?

    That’s what my hair would look like if I never combed it. Are people really putting a lot of effort into looking like they just don’t care?

  504. @ Lisa

    Oh btw your kind of churches loves to discipline and excommunicate people for not donating enough money. That you would take from even the poorest of your members. Like your 1% more each year campaign, which has now risen to 20% of every member’s income. Oh Jesus had a field day with your kind of churches back then.

    He said these leaders will receive greater condemnation because they look good on the outside but behind the scenes they were devouring widows’ houses. And he proved it to them right there when a homeless and bankrupt poor widow walked into the “church” and had to give up her last 2 small copper coins. What in the world? Shouldn’t the church be helping her instead of asking her to donate? That’s why all these kind of churches must be torn down.

    I didn’t make this up. Go read Mark 12:38-44 and Mark 13:1-2

    I didn’t say the above out of hate. I wish your church would repent of your ways. Neo-Calvinism is a poisonous theology. 9 Marks is a poisonous theology. Stop following these! instead go back and focus on the Greatest Commandant, that you love God and love your neighbors as yourself.

  505. dee wrote:

    Patriciamc wrote:
    . I just worry that this is going to affect the church’s credibility and hurt the good work these people have done, and hurt the gospel!
    The gospel is all about the sin of people and God’s grace. The gospel is never hurt when sin occurs because the gospel tells us it will. Te gospel is hurt when people pretend that they are *righteous* believers, only being good when they are good and bad and then forgiven when they ask. Preach the real gospel and the churchill do well-even if that means things change.

    I think something should be considered in this conversation. What Pete Wilson has done in a very public way is bring shame upon Jesus’ name. Our actions as Christians most certainly have repercussions. Every time pastors specifically, and Christians of all sorts in general, act in disgraceful ways the message of the gospel is adversely affected in some way. The adage, “Christians aren’t perfect, just forgiven” doesn’t cut it. Rather, it comes off as Christians trying to get away with something. It’s an excuse to try and justify wrong behavior. Christians are called to live to a higher standard. The Christian life isn’t just about being forgiven and then going on to live like the world. That’s cheap grace. So yes, what Pete Wilson has done, what all the other pastors/leaders who are exposed on TWW have done, is scandalous. And such scandal has a negative effect upon the way the world perceives Christ, the church, and the gospel. Remember what the apostle Paul said in Roman ch. 2 to the Jewish people. “The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.” This is because they were hypocrites, professing one thing and living the opposite as can be seen in the context of this passage. And their actions had an effect, i.e. – the Gentiles blasphemed God on account of their hypocrisy. Therefore, pastors who make a living openly and publicly preaching to live a certain way and point to the gospel while their actions oppose that very gospel, will bring disgrace upon our Lord and the church.